Open 836: Pick Your Poison (Game Over)

[Bingle]

I can solve that!

Explode: PenguinPower

[Bingle]

What kind of alcohol?

[Bingle]

wtf

Should probably post a reads list before you flip.

[Bingle]

IPAs

Scum claim, tbh.

[Bingle]

IPAs are good.

I didn’t know penguins were the natural predator of sweaty socks.

[Bingle]

You haven’t lived until you’ve had a car mob of fireball and 151.

Of course, most people don’t live long after either.

[Bingle]

Carbomb autocorrects to car mob? Hmmm.

[Bingle]

I am now drinking a stout in a bathtub. Look what your careless hands have wrought.

[Bingle]

Hey skitter. Do you and pooky plan to replace to a hydra named hockey on N1?

[Bingle]

I would say it’s okay, but the stout is a Guinness, so I guess all I can offer is forgiveness.

[Bingle]

So. I FINALLY got to open the setup wiki page (by chance) and discovered it's not the setup I had in mind!!

So.. what is the name of the setup where Town started with 2 PRs and for every PR scum picks for themselves (up to 3) Town gains an additional PR??

P.S. Not trying to "townslip". Genuine question though. Consider it NAI

Stack/load the deck. It’s currently unbalanced but tbone is working on fixing it I think.

[Bingle]

God I hate DST. The forum is an hour in the future now.

[Bingle]

DO NOT GET OLD, guys.

Live fast, die young, leave a pretty corpse.

[Bingle]

God I hate DST. The forum is an hour in the future now.

That's why I'm utterly glad we stopped using this silly "time shifting" method here in Egypt. Like, what's wrong with starting your job at -say- 7 in the summer and 8 in the winter? You don't need to change the time settings for that.

Yeah but you write everything with funny little pictures and all of your buildings look like those hats the nice people from the shadow government wear.

[Bingle]

Who are you?

Definitely not echant.

[Bingle]

Datisi, it’s page 6. Why aren’t you in town yet?

[Bingle]

I fucking hate autocorrect.

Okay, so mechanics:

JK is by far the strongest town role, so we can assume we don’t have it. If we do, they should play an aggressive game and aim for scum for the first two days because of the shot roles. Similarly IC is by far the weakest so we can assume we do.

Of the remaining roles, vig never ccs. If we get a vig claim, they get shot at night if scum. Tracker should hope to claim late and we all hypoclaim a cop target d2 before doing anything else so that if there’s a cop we still get the info.

There, that’s all of the relevant mech talk.

[Bingle]

Who the hell is echant

If you don’t know, you’re not a part of the club.

[Bingle]

VOTE: Fun and games

Serious vote.

[Bingle]

bingle, i've been obvtown since page two, try to keep up

But if I don’t scumread you you just get shot.

[Bingle]

Cop is one shot: them being outed is low risk on D2. In fact, scum specifically targeting for the cop is better than scum targeting for other prs/the cop clear, because theoretically the cop can still lose a 1v1. Also, hypoclaiming introduces topics of conversation like “why would you target echant, everybody knows echant is town. Well, except enchant. They don’t even know who echant is.”

[Bingle]

Well, I know for a fact the "Cop clear" can also be misyeeted anyway, so..

Nah, I’m town this game.

[Bingle]

Almost50 eats using his phone as a plate, like my sister.

A50 confirmed scum. Clearly using his status as the mods sister to find out who the prs are.

[Bingle]

we all hypoclaim a cop target d2 before doing anything else so that if there’s a cop we still get the info.

I'm dumb at mechanics. Explain the logic here for me more.

Cop should always act night one, so after N1 they’re a questionable existence named townie: otherwise known as not very useful. If everybody goes “if I were the cop I would have gotten result x on echant” we’re trading the inability for scum to suppress the result by luckykilling the cop (or a misvig on the cop) for an added chance of the scum working out who the cop is. But after night one is over, scum killing the cop is a pretty low priority for scum, so them working out who the cop is really doesn’t matter all that much. Also, it helps the vig to not shoot a potential cop clear if we have both, although that is less of an issue and we can talk about who vig should shoot if there are two kills tonight.

[Bingle]

Meh. We can assume there’s an IC because it’s orders of magnitude less powerful than the others. Whether we have a vig should be pretty obvious pretty soon. Claims are a lot more straightforward to figure out than they seem in this game.

[Bingle]

You could vote pooky with me enchant. I promise nothing bad will happen.

[Bingle]

VOTE: Fun and games

Serious vote.

Why? I remember you were in Betrayal

Skitter

always

scumreads me and pooky was late to the thread despite being around.

[Bingle]

Who the hell is jingle.

Jingle is my modding account, btw. It’s an open alt but I like to keep the two separate because I don’t always check my games when modding or respond to reviewer asks while checking my games, and on occasion I run horrible monstrosities with 20+ pts and need my ego search to be minimally cluttered.

[Bingle]

for whoever played in the pyp i modded recently, does enchant's intro here have weird vibes that remind of their intro there or am i imagining it

I don’t think I’ve ever seen scum enchant in action that I can talk about but I’m not particularly worried there and I’m a little gunshy wrt that slot after the sploder game that I need to take my vengeance on pengy for.

I don’t really know what he’s doing playing up the not knowing the name typo thing, but it doesn’t seem like the kind of thing scum gets any advantage out of.

Link to the scum game you’re pinging off of?

[Bingle]

i've been cursed IRL it better not translate to this game!

What kind of curse? Are you living in interesting times?

[Bingle]

why is this something that you felt needed to be pointed out? like, the "who is [misspelling of their name]" seemed like an obvious joke/sarcasm post to me, i don't think town or scum tries to accomplish anything with it.

You asked if they sounded off, and the answer was yes, and here’s why, but I don’t see it as particularly scummy.

[Bingle]

baltar, have you ever played a single game with bingle

Nope. Going on first impressions here. Is this a thing he always does that I'm reading wrong?

yep, the "laying out the most pro-town mechanical strategy, regardless of his own alignment" is kind of his thing, at least early.

Can confirm. Bingle talking optimal mech play is a sign that Bingle is in fact in the game. Hell, there was a marathon last go round where I broke the game before it started despite not having the time to play in it myself.

Calling me town for it is about as useful as arguing I don’t believe in what I’m saying because I have about 8 years of evidence to the contrary.

[Bingle]

i dunno scum enchant is p passive afair

My data suggests enchant is flies under the radar style scum but is neither comprehensive nor particularly applicable.

[Bingle]

I think that the cop is clearly the strongest of the roles and is very likely excluded.

JK is stronger.

Without getting into the why, Jk 9er and cop 9er have similar observed win rates.

Cop is a decently likely exclusion, but that’s a moo point where hypoclaiming is concerned. If there isn’t a cop, hypoclaiming just introduces info to talk about without risking the outing of a cop.

[Bingle]

VOTE: Penguin_Power

Boring Iso

If your pot is talking to you you might not want to smoke it.

[Bingle]

Why no follow up with me, catbear?

[Bingle]

@F&G

Why no follow up with me, catbear?

[Bingle]

Fun and Games seemed perfectly reasonable to me on Dunn.

Not sure how to take Dunn saying otherwise. I don't think it's intentional or malicious but if it came down to 1v1 I'd be more likely to think Dunn was the one twisting things.

Ewww.

[Bingle]

A50 like 80% town.

[Bingle]

I could dig it. That was like the scummiest “This is TvT” I’ve ever seen.

Not sure how I feel about F&G pushing Gamma for defending you when I did basically the same thing for the same reasons and pushing Dunn for having a weak reason to read them while I literally cited Pooky not being around. Skirts has felt very reactive and off this game and I kind of want to spend some time talking reads there, but I don’t know when I’ll be available to real time talk.

I kinda feel stuck in limbo waiting for this Dats/Ico thing to pan out.

[Bingle]

I'm not sure what else you were expecting

Either pressure for the things I’m doing or an explanation of why you had the townpings when you’ve never been good at recognizing town me would be cool.

[Bingle]

Now I need to fake some reads, don't I??

OK..

Almost50
VP Baltar
Bingle
Fun and Games (skitter30 & PookyTheMagicalBear)
PenguinPower
Datisi

Then everyone else

Hah, I’m the highest priority other than VP in monkeys fake reads. Clearly that means I’m his favorite.

[Bingle]

Dats how are you reading ico rn?

~ skitter

i think 90 is still an up-to-date post on that, i'll get back to you when i have something solid

ico, are you really surprised that i expected to have a read on you by this point?

@skitts: This feels like it’s going somewhere and I don’t want to step in it and taint the read, but it’s going somewhere really slowly.

[Bingle]

Can you cite some other examples where you think skitter has been reactive?

It’s more a pattern thing than a specific example thing. I suppose I can go look for why I feel that way in the first place, but my impression is that most of her play has been based around other people interacting with her and each other rather than her reaching out and poking others. Do you think that isn’t accurate? Why?

[Bingle]

I just realised there's no Pooky in game.

Bingle fooled me to vote invisible person.

Pooky is half of F+G.

[Bingle]

Second favorite

He couldn’t put me at the top, that’s make the favoritism too obvious.

[Bingle]

Do you think that isn’t accurate? Why?

I'm a pretty blank slate on the F&G slot at the moment, so I was just curious why you were having a reaction there.

Sounds like you're going on a vibe rather than specifics

Yarp.

[Bingle]

Bingle, makes it hard to clear it up when you don't say why.

What do you need clarified? I’ve said a little bit on a lot of topics so far.

[Bingle]

Yes, i agree that you can read my play that way. Why is this scummy tho?

Not so much scummy as weird. I don’t ave a strong read on you either way, but I do have a “this is weird” read and I’m trying to work out why. S’kinda why I want to find the time to have a back and forth.

[Bingle]

You reacted twice to my same post with no details. You said ew and that it was the acummiest tvt read you've ever seen. Most of your details have been setup related. Actually none of your reads up to that point came with details unless I missed them.

I felt that the why there was pretty self explanatory. You were saying that Dunn/F+G was TvT and still leaving a back door to later vote Dunn for being “worse” in the TvT.

[Bingle]

I think the base assertion is just straight bullshit because this isn’t a fast game at all, Hidden Temple was faster than this and I was able to keep up fine, I even told people they were wrong to bitch about the posting rate that game because it wasn’t even the worst I’d experienced (that probably goes to Xenoblade 2 for what I can remember)

Wut?

That doesn’t at all look like what what VP is accusing you of. VP is saying specifically that your level of engagement with the peeps posting is low (which is a weird take) not anything to do with the posting rate being too high.

[Bingle]

@Bingle i'll be around for like an hour now, unfortunately dont think i willbe after that until Saturday night

I’m mobile atm myself, so unfortunately not a good time for real time interactions

[Bingle]

VP how do you see me as keeping pace better than those you listed when of those you listed only Dunn has less posts than me? Do you think Not_Mafia is keeping pace?

Post count is not what I mean when I say keeping pace

[Bingle]

Like contextually that post is clearly not a “look at activity overview, bottom half is scummy” post or eepless would have definitely made the cut. It’s weird that you’re on the list over pengy at the very least, but saying he’s complaining the game is too fast is a weird ass take, especially to 180 a read for.

[Bingle]

Someone asked me for reads but I don’t see it skimming back.

A50 is a strong townread. Vp and enchant both seem town, but I could be wrong. I still need to find the time to check dats’ linked meta, but I’m getting the same energy from WYLTBMH from enchant specifically.

Skitter and sassin are giving me weird feels, but I can’t really figure out why. SLA in particular is making it really easy to engage though, so I have high hopes for solving.

VPs take that Dunn might be under the radar scum matches what I feel about that slot atm, and he’s had some pretty weird interactions. (Skitter is scum for not seriously townreading Dunn’s “hi” post? Huh?)

The fact I don’t have any other real scumreads makes me think I’m missing something big though.

[Bingle]

Question though, does penguin usually play like this? I assumed so since no one is commenting on it.

Yeah. He usually starts the game low impact. Why do you think Gamma isn’t engaging enough?

[Bingle]

NM is never engaged with any player list. NM gets resolved through night actions.

I’ve actually seen some pretty strong N_M town play recently.

[Bingle]

VOTE: Dunn

i'll be back after the weekend with more.

Good vote

Bingle would u vote dunn too?

~ skitter

As of here I would have, but I’m not really keen on an E-1 atm.

[Bingle]

Btw, I'm dead serious about Gamma here. Not gonna say why in details, but he knows as well as I that this is a scumtell of his.

Does this stand if the thing vp is pushing isn’t really true?

VOTE: gamma emerald

Either way this does more work here.

[Bingle]

Also is anyone else finding bingle to be kinda weird?

~ skitter

Yup. My reads density is inverted. It’s wild.

[Bingle]

kids with lungs

I have a new open to design.

[Bingle]

gosh I guess i'll have to metadive Ico myself huh

He was pretty similar in both team mafia and the micro we were buddies for, iirc.

[Bingle]

Him saying I’m struggling to keep up is also a weird ass take!

Sure, but the relevant thing is why he has that take.

[Bingle]

Bingle, you were thinking of me. I was looking for reasoning on Almost50 and Fun and Games, your two strongest reads other than those two slots and myself, and a read on Iconeum.

I’m not gonna be able to give a reason on A50, but I might be the most accurate monkey whispererer on site. F+G I would also like to know why I think they’re being weird, so if you could figure that out I’d be grateful. Ico I don’t really have a read on, nor do I expect to. I’m vaguely hoping someone else comes along and tells me his alignment so I don’t have to figure it out, same as N_M and Pengy.

[Bingle]

Cool. You have my axe.

[Bingle]

viewtopic.php?f=83&t=87385

This is the game I was talking about Enchant having the same energy in. They were the same kind of unapologetically not helping town there (more concerned with whether they join up with scum) and they flipped town. My other experience is not something I can talk about.

[Bingle]

At the end of the game I revealed enchant to be town.

Better?

[Bingle]

What’s your take on that list basically being the Dunn wagon, skits?

[Bingle]

You have some partner equity with dunn imo fwiw

Because I didn’t want a N_M hammer or prior to that?

[Bingle]

dont like me doing it

I don't think I ever said that, actually. Post 503 (which I assume is what you're referring to) is me saying that Dunn's take on your push on him was questionable, and that your play as a whole has given me weird feels. Those two things are mostly unrelated. Post 352 I talk about your push on Dunn, but more in a sense that you're not pushing other people and I'm not sure how I feel about that than that I dislike the push itself.

I can't really argue that I was super interested in voting Dunn (because I wasn't) but tbh I wasn't super interested in voting anyone. That's why I hadn't moved my vote off of you and why I'm sheeping A50 rn.

[Bingle]

Also scum!bingle likes to focus on mech vs. faking solving so townreading bingle for anything to do with mech is bad play

?

This is just wrong. My entire thing is that I mechspeak from a purely NAI place. Like, townreading me for mechspeak is bad, but I don't particularly lean into it as scum over town. I mechspeak exactly as much as I feel the situation calls for it, regardless of my alignment, because my first interest in mafia is from a game theory/design standpoint and I find the social manipulation/deduction to be secondary (but still fun). More, you know that. We spent an entire game in a mason chat where I got so bored with the solved game that literally all I did was mechspeak.

[Bingle]

We accept you as a provisional member of the Olds. A few more years and you'll be in the inner circle. (There is IcyHot)

Can I be a provisional member of the Olds? I'm only 29 but I've had heart issues since I was 15, a bum leg that sometimes requires a cane because of nerve damage, Sciatica, chronic migraines and have had Shingles twice. Also, hair loss that leaves me oddly reminiscent of A50's avatar. And I rant about how the youths are ruining my mafia.

[Bingle]

I don’t remember being in a masonry w you ever lol

OK1, modded by some monkey.

I was Queen Latifa.

[Bingle]

Oh dear. It seems someone in here has truly buried themselves before even getting to know the hole they’d dug for themselves.

?

[Bingle]

but more in a sense that you're not pushing other people and I'm not sure how I feel about that than that I dislike the push itself.

I am pushing other people ...

~ skitter

Sorry, I worded that poorly, although I think following the link makes my wording fairly clear.

I thought it was strange and noteworthy that you were pushing Dunn over a flimsy vote on you when you were ignoring my own flimsy vote on you. I also thought it was weird that you took exception to gamma defending enchant based on pookys game when I also defended enchant based on pookys game. I don’t remember if there were other people involved.

I didn’t think you were avoiding pushing people in general but people, me, in specific.

[Bingle]

Is there any particular reason you snipped the context that that was explaining a post literally half the game before it and presented it as though I was saying you're not pushing people right now?

[Bingle]

Um I think this is pretty important and also in that case Bingle’s objection actually seems pretty relevant? And I seriously forget where I said that but how one you’re only just now using it when we’ve played several times pretty recently with no mention of it, or attempts to bait me into exhibiting that tell?

I agree that my question seems pretty relevant given that A50 was voting you for blowing a little thing that didn't matter out of proportion and my question was whether the fact that you were making a big deal out of what seemed like a pretty easy to clarify misunderstanding.

I disagree that that negatively impacts the strength of his case on you, and in fact think it strengthens it.

[Bingle]

Now i do think your reasons for being sus of us are silly and shallow

My reasons for being 'sus' of you, as it were are that I think you're tonally different than I'm used to from you. I'm not really 'sus' of you, but rather confused about your play and trying to figure it out. And I feel like every time I try to engage with you like this you start painting a picture that I'm crusading for your elimination, when that's pretty blatantly not the case.

There's an entire world of difference between "Why are you acting weird" and "You're scum" and I feel like every time I ask the former you respond like I said the latter. And I'm trying to understand why.

What do you make of A50's Gamma case?

[Bingle]

And i get that that you're saying i feel weird, which i also recognize is not the same that as you explicitly calling us scum, but when you talk about your view of the game and who you scumread, you talk about us in the same convo as your scumreads, which is where i'm getting that vibe from (503). So i dont think me reading it that way is entirely unreasonable

Also i dont get what your complaint is that pooky wasnt here for a particular part of the game

I didn't talk about you in the same convo as with my scumreads though?

503 was formatted in paragraphs:

P1 -> Townreads
P2 -> People I found weird and was hoping to solve further
P3 -> Scumreads

So I guess, yeah, I talked about you in the same post as I talked about scumreads, and I never explicitly said I was more null on SA than outright scumreading, so I guess that makes sense.

And the Pooky thing was a slightly more than RVS but less than real reads thing where I knew he was nominally around the site but he didn't check into the thread, and I think it's marginally more likely that scum would wait to get on the same page as their partner than town would. I haven't been pushing it because I think the other explanation (he was busy with other things) is equally likely in this case.

[Bingle]

you're third in post count and engaging the game state in multiple ways.

Dunn is dead last and barely playing.

Fair at this point, but when you started pushing Dunn I had mostly been memeing. I don't actually think I'd posted content other than my obligatory mechspeak or the flimsy vote on you with the flimsy logic before I started wondering why you weren't concerned about it.

[Bingle]

you would think he'd stop beating a dead horse

Better than betting on it.

[Bingle]

we didn't really push dunn until he reacted to our vote hella scummily with a "why r u readflipping on me"

which makes no sense to us because I don't see how he really thinks skitter was townreading him on "hi"

No I get that. That part made sense. The weird part to me was the engaging Dunn over me before he did the whole “F+G 180’d on me” bit.

And yeah, the almost sorta Ellitell on pooky is a complete nonissue at this point, it was just a thing to push in the absence of better things to push.

[Bingle]

I think maybe I was reading too much into your initial Dunn vote and you were reading too much into my confusion about you, and that might explain why I’ve felt your play was so weird. I’ll go back and reread things in the morning, but I feel a lot better about your slot now.

[Bingle]

Fair enuf!

what are your present thoughts on gamma and penguin?
(And i would ask abt ico/dats as well but i believe u said u were waiting there)

~ skitter

I think gamma is scum. Basically I’m getting the feeling that he’s trying to present the thread in a certain way. Particularly the post when he said my “objection” to A50s meta tell was relevant seemed manipulative.

Pengy hasn’t really been doing anything but isn’t getting a lot of attention. I think if baltar is scum they have a lot of equity together, but I’m also townreading baltar so I’m not super worried there atm.

I think you’re wrong about ico/dats being S/S. Making the ico read this drawn out seems like a weird way to go for dats if they’re buddies. They’d have to know that the longer they drew it out the worse it would look if they failed to produce results and it’s not like one of them would die conveniently over the night at some point to prevent the need for a grand reveal or follow through. Unfortunately, I could easily see either of them being scum at this point: dats leaning on ico being absent to not have to engage as much is a tinfoil I have, and there’s just a whole lot of nothing from ico.

[Bingle]

Is it really beetlejuicing if you don’t post game content? More at 11.

[Bingle]

bingle, do you think i'm purposefully not engaging with this game? like, do you genuinely have a problem with the amount of content i've had so far?

Do I think you haven’t posted enough? No. Do I think the amount/content of what you’ve posted makes you town? Also no. Do I think focusing on ico when you did was a convenient way to produce content that scum you could take advantage of? Yes. Do I think that town you wouldn’t have focused on ico there? No, although that’s more based on how skitter is treating your ability to read ico than firsthand knowledge of your ability with him.

I agree that you’d probably have a more nuanced read/plan by now if you/ico was S/S though.

[Bingle]

i'm not digging my dunn vote anymore but also i am not digging anything else - someone try to sell me on something please

There’s this neat blender I can give you for only 60 payments of $9.99.

What are your thoughts about gamma and the defeatism?

[Bingle]

@Dats

I think the base assertion is just straight bullshit because this isn’t a fast game at all, Hidden Temple was faster than this and I was able to keep up fine, I even told people they were wrong to bitch about the posting rate that game because it wasn’t even the worst I’d experienced (that probably goes to Xenoblade 2 for what I can remember)

Wut?

That doesn’t at all look like what what VP is accusing you of. VP is saying specifically that your level of engagement with the peeps posting is low (which is a weird take) not anything to do with the posting rate being too high.

Btw, I'm dead serious about Gamma here. Not gonna say why in details, but he knows as well as I that this is a scumtell of his.

Does this stand if the thing vp is pushing isn’t really true?

VOTE: gamma emerald

Either way this does more work here.

[Bingle]

My impression of the progression was:

VP: Gamma isn’t keeping up with the thread and might be scum.
SA: Why gamma and not other lurkers?
VP: By keeping up with the thread, I mean interactions with players, not post count.
Gamma: I don’t have issues keeping up with this post count! Look at these games where I kept up with a larger post count!
A50: Vote Gamma.
Bingle: does gamma being scum rely on VP being right about gamma not engaging with players, cause he kinda was. Also baaa.
Gamma: why you vote me monkey?
A50: you told me you like to distract from relevant convo by making mountains out of molehills as scum, and the post count thing is a molehill.
Gamma: But that’s totally relevant to jingles question!

[Bingle]

cause he kinda was.

By this I meant that gamma kinda was engaging with players before VP’s case, not that VPs case was correct. That was ambiguous

[Bingle]

@SA

Fwiw contextually I’m pretty sure gamma has been going through rough times IRL (<3 Gamma). Does that info color your read of the wagon response?

[Bingle]

gamma doesn't strike me as a player that would just go into complete antispew there? especially as he wasn't really that close to yeet

He kind of was but either way can you not see how there was momentum and he could have felt like he was going down?

He was at NM-1 afaict.

[Bingle]

Hi

What do you make of this?

[Bingle]

Hi

What do you make of this?

I'm here

I’m sorry, we were looking for an Airplane! joke.

Seriously though, what do you think about the situation re: Gamma since you’ve been gone?

[Bingle]

Hi

I'm here

[Bingle]

Anyway, I feel like the issue with A50’s point against me is it’s very YMMV: how important what I was questioning VP on is varies from person to person. So my main rebuttal was to bring up “you think this is unimportant but to me this might be valuable in bringing down VP because IMO he’s talking up a crock of shit like it’s gold”.

Why does scum VP use such an obvious lie?

[Bingle]

I'm treating it as NAI, fwiw.

I think AnyGamma is less likely to be inclined to put a lot of effort into a losing proposition, which makes me think AnyGamma would be more likely to shut down at a functional E-1 right now.

[Bingle]

@SS- can we get prods on Ico and VP perchance?

[Bingle]

@SS- can we get prods on Ico and VP perchance?

Sure.

Ico yes, VP is V/LA.

VC 1.6

Gamma Emerald (3)- Almost50, Bingle,
Dunnstral (3)- VP Baltar, Iconeum, Datisi
VP Baltar (1)-
Datisi (1)- SirCakez
Not_Mafia (1)- Not_Mafia
Sleepless Assassin (1)- Enchant
Iconeum (1)- Sleepless Assassin PenguinPower Gamma Emerald
Pengy - Fun and Games

Not voting (2)- , Dunnstral

With 13 alive it takes 7 to reach a majority.

Deadline is in (expired on 2021-11-23 23:00:00)

Mod notes: my toast fell apart this morning

Updated votes: Ico's at 3 skitts. I kinda really don't like that wagon comp atm though.

[Bingle]

Bingle, since you seem to know what this tell was A50 called on Gamma, do you mind breaking this down for me a little more. I'm finding it a little hard to follow. Can you walk me through what you're seeing here?

The tell as I understand it is that Gamma scum likes to focus in on small less important details as a way to avoid talking about more relevant topics.

Gamma has implicitly agreed that that is true, but says the tell doesn’t apply because the thing he was focusing on is important.

[Bingle]

Anyway, I feel like the issue with A50’s point against me is it’s very YMMV: how important what I was questioning VP on is varies from person to person. So my main rebuttal was to bring up “you think this is unimportant but to me this might be valuable in bringing down VP because IMO he’s talking up a crock of shit like it’s gold”.

No, I think your gamestate analysis was essentially irrelevant
Like, sure I wasn’t really engaged w the game (which ig is what you said), but that doesn’t make me scum. I’m v much a do things my own way guy so expecting me to engage at the same rate and same manner is not wise
And I also again just rlly dislike how when I acted up you tried to bully me into voting your wagon of choice

Walk me through what changed here.

[Bingle]

Can someone explain why not relying on preflip associatives is scummy, cause idgi.

[Bingle]

i noticed that some of you were asking for my presence

Your presence is a present.

[Bingle]

A few not so generous interpretations on each side, but both seem to be trying to understand the other in the end.

Where do you think I wasn’t generous with my interpretation and why should i have been?

[Bingle]

do you think i should be townreading you, vp?

I do.

Can you tell me why you think VP scum?

[Bingle]

Was gonna reads list, but I’m out of time. Let’s just say I’m scumreading the mafia and townreading the town so I can have all the postgame bragging rights about my D1 solve.

[Bingle]

Townie

A50
VP
Enchant
SirC

Varying degrees of nullishness

Datisi
Fun and Games
Not_Maf
PP
Ico

Scummy

SA
Dunn
GE

Format shamelessly stoled from a dargon, ordered within tiers.

[Bingle]

Only today is just another day

If you don’t start helping I’m going to have to pretend to stop townreading you. Bad monkey, no bananas if you make me push your wagon for you.

[Bingle]

Was gonna reads list, but I’m out of time. Let’s just say I’m scumreading the mafia and townreading the town so I can have all the postgame bragging rights about my D1 solve.

Ok then vote Assassin with me.

Sell me on why Ssleepleess is scummier than gamma.

[Bingle]

Sell me on why Sleep is townier than Gamma.

Anyway, I feel like the issue with A50’s point against me is it’s very YMMV: how important what I was questioning VP on is varies from person to person. So my main rebuttal was to bring up “you think this is unimportant but to me this might be valuable in bringing down VP because IMO he’s talking up a crock of shit like it’s gold”.

No, I think your gamestate analysis was essentially irrelevant
Like, sure I wasn’t really engaged w the game (which ig is what you said), but that doesn’t make me scum. I’m v much a do things my own way guy so expecting me to engage at the same rate and same manner is not wise
And I also again just rlly dislike how when I acted up you tried to bully me into voting your wagon of choice

Walk me through what changed here.

Also, you're trying to convince me to bail on a wagon on a scumread for a wagon with a lesser scumread that doesn't have as many participants.

[Bingle]

bingle, what's your take on what's happening considering your 5 lowest reads are more or less just pushing each other?

The inverse of that sentence is that my highest reads are all fairly universally read as town, which leads me to the conclusion of mostly successful townblocking.

I think the answer is to flip one of the people who are likely scum and then, you know, reevaluate if they aren't.

[Bingle]

@Dats:

Can someone explain why not relying on preflip associatives is scummy, cause idgi.

[Bingle]

however, i do think i would disagree with that assertion. up to that point, gamma appeared to me to be pretty engaged with the game, even moreso than what i usually expect. i just reread his iso from the beginning to the game up to that point, and it seemed to be pretty... solid? like he had a decent amount of reads and was solving. which is partly why i could understand gamma there, because the "case" on him felt pretty... i dunno, incorrect?

This. 100% This.

Which makes it all the weirder that Gamma would focus in on the "VP was complaining the game was too fast" angle, double down that that line of questioning was important and then just kind of drop it.

[Bingle]

meh, sure, that makes enough sense. maybe it's me always being the pessimist. and i didn't say it was scummy?

I thought you did, but in regards to Ico's list. Maybe you didn't, but a lot of people did and I feel like I'm missing the lead there.

[Bingle]

@Dats:

Can someone explain why not relying on preflip associatives is scummy, cause idgi.

Went back and checked, and it was actually Gamma, VP and kind of Dunn. (Dunn only quoted the post about the reads not containing associatives and then said Ico shouldn't be voting him, but I think that's saying scumreading people who are mutually scumreading each other is scummy.)

So I guess I want Gamma/VP/Dunn to tell me why not relying on preflip associatives is scummy.

[Bingle]

VC 1.7

Iconeum (4)- Sleepless Assassin, PenguinPower, Gamma Emerald, Datisi
Dunnstral (2)- VP Baltar, Iconeum,
Gamma Emerald (2)- Almost50, Bingle
F+G (1)- SirCakez
Not_Mafia (1)- Not_Mafia
Sleepless Assassin (1)- Enchant
PenguinPower (1)- Fun and Games

Not voting (1)- Dunnstral

With 13 alive it takes 7 to reach a majority.

Deadline is in (expired on 2021-11-23 23:00:00)

Mod notes: it hailed today. quite a lot. upstate NY weather is weird

Dats voted ico, cakez voted you

[Bingle]

Actually skitter, why

aren’t

you voting ico?

[Bingle]

@Gamma: reading A50 is an art form. I could potentially write pages about how I go about doing so. When I have a lockdown on him (which I’m not quite at, but we’re getting close) you’d be better served trying to eliminate me than him, such is my accuracy. I cannot always lock town town him or figure out scum him, but when I’m sure you can take it to the bank.

Tl;dr I know him well enough to be able to distinguish the difference between his genuine tinfoils and his fake ones, as well as read into the intent of his 5D chess gambles. There is a slight chance he’s trying to manipulate me specifically here, but doing so this early when it’s not at all guaranteed I actually catch scum him is asking for trouble.

As far as what he’s actually doing? He’s dropping specific tells that make him look like he’s a pr in a way that is likely to draw pr and scum attention. When confronted with tacit protection from me he’s ducking the thread in a way that would make most people reconsider their townread on him, but which is further likely to draw unwanted from scum attention from PRs. He explicitly does not care about that, and that’s plus town specifically in his case. Note: I don’t think this makes him a PR, necessarily, as A50 loves playing the wifom game with intentionally dropped or tells, and with me in the game he expects me to take his wifom game and make it explicit to further thicken the smokescreen he’s putting in front of the other town prs.

Also, his gotcha moment on you followed by sitting back and looking to see what happened is pretty bog standard for a town A50 looking to leverage one solid read into more solid reads.

VP on the other hand has just been playing a very solid game. I can see his reasoning in most cases, and everything he does pings as trying to drive forward a game state with high readability. He’s not afraid of stepping on toes, making unpopular stances, or being seen as going after lhf. His one weird thought moment was accusing you of being less engaging with the thread, but he didn’t do so in a way that put any pressure on you while he did try to pressure Dunn with it and your response to it pretty much confirmed to me it wasn’t him trying to throw weak shade at a partner for distance.

[Bingle]

also how is 919 manipulative ...

It pinged me as being super obvious telegraphing your next step. Town doesn’t need to setup the expectation that they’ll do something, but it can be helpful as hell for scum to point back at.

I’m trying not to default to scumreading the little things from you given VPs point that I might be being less charitable than I should be irt your motivations though.

[Bingle]

You shouldn't change your game because of me.

It's not just because of you. Skitter and I have a habit of deathtunneling each other. It usually ends in me realizing she's town shortly before I'm eliminated and then her getting eliminated afterwards when the town listens to my early read on her instead of my last minute change of heart.

[Bingle]

That wasn't even VP who posted that.

Clearly VP said it in the scum thread

Haven't you been checking it?

[Bingle]

That wasn't even VP who posted that.

Clearly VP said it in the scum thread

Haven't you been checking it?

If it turns out there's a SC/VP team in the endgame, someone remind me to sig this.

[Bingle]

If it turns out there's a SC/VP team in the endgame, someone remind me to sig this.

I can only remind you if you remind me to remind you.

Hey Siri, remind the old monkey to remind me to remind him to remind me... What was I talking about again?

[Bingle]

bingle, am i correct in getting the feeling that you're not playing as hard as you did in that mystery box of silver potion clusterfuck game?

I don't think so?

Like, I don't remember that game particularly well but my main recollection was that I burned out pretty hard what with obvtown mastina's deathtunnel on me and it tilted me for a couple of games. I don't think it was a particularly high effort game on my end. Could be the frustration coloring my memory though. I have been struggling to put as much effort into games as I want to overall since around that time though. No idea if that's actually translating into how/how often I post.

[Bingle]

And some people blame the person they replaced for poor play in order to attempt to wipe the slate clean and start over as if the slot is brand new. It's not a sure fire tell in my opinion but it has merit.

Amished was actually briefly a reliable towntell in regular games when it became super popular in the newbie queue. No idea if it's swung back to usable though.

And as it was explained to me it's more a function of confirmation bias. You know the slot you're reading is scum, so you default to seeing the behaviors as scummy.

[Bingle]

you mean scumtell, right?

No. There was a brief period in the meta of the site where it was referenced often enough that it was actually pretty solid that only town would make the mistake of commenting on their predecessor's play. I think it was late 2013 early 2014. It was extreme blowback to the tell becoming popular as a scumtell.

[Bingle]

A50 prob town, really reading like his previous game recently

Can you give a link and quick summary of what you find similar?

Note to self:

Iconeum forgot Penguin in his reads list.

Curious why you felt we needed a new wagon here, and why you were asking for support rather than just making a case and trying to start one yourself?

If I remember right we had one wagon and no competing wagon so it felt like a good time for a new one. I had already been trying to get people to vote Iconeum at that point.

Coming back here, this stinks to high heaven to me. 1) There is no real explanation why Dunn is a bad wagon, just a desire to deflate the wagon. 2) SA was trying to feel out an Ico wagon in his previous post, but when no one bites he jumps on Gamma, where the momentum was starting to shift at this point. Very high Dunn-SA partner equity, which improving forecasts perhaps for Gamma.

If you don't agree with my take on Dunns exchange with Fun And Games then unfortunately you'd be right I don't have a reason to town read him because that's the most telling thing I've seen from Dunn aside from his comment that you called a soft claim. But let me clarify that it's not the wagon composition that I didn't like, it's my specific read on Dunn. I think he's townier than Gamma. So I preferred Gamma.

But I'm not really scumreading Gamma either.

Vote Iconeum

lol wut dafuq? (emphasis mine)

Is it unreasonable to believe Bingle that Gamma is going through RL things? Or is it unreasonable to believe RL can lead to apathy just as much as Gammas alignment could?

Wow, just ISOed Sleepless Assassin .... dude had an RVS-level vote on Ico out there until he determined the Dunn wagon was "bad" and he voted for Gamma.

>>insert Twitter red flag meme here<<

Interesting take. I didn't place an RVS vote in this game.

I'm not really sure what to do with the fact that like all of dunn/gamma/ico are pushing each other

If Dunn and Gamma are town and Ico is scum this would make sense.

I will say someone mentioned Gamma has some IRL shit going on, so I am taking that into consideration in reviewing my own read there.

This is funny after you questioned me for reevaluating my own Gamma read for the exact same reason.

Hitting submit before finishing because my phone is acting up

This also is reasoning ish.

[Bingle]

I don't see another way to parse his 1207.

And FWIW, there are exactly 28 instances of "ico" on SA's ISO.

[Bingle]

Yes, but I implore everyone to go read his ISO and see how many of those are of substance or pointing out things with scum motivation.

I did. It's the one you quoted and the one I quoted.

[Bingle]

Doesn't it seem odd to you to hang on to a scum read for 50 pages with no change based upon that?

Not really?

Like, I’d think it was more weird if SA was reconsidering when ico just straight up wasn’t here.

Sa’s case is pretty trash, but if pushing a player without casing them was a scum thing then like half of the thread is scum.

[Bingle]

So you know the original knee jerk "I've just read my Role PM and I'm gonna play this way" stuff you already quoted. You already know that I feel after he disappeared he avoided me after I voted him and tried to get people to join me. You already know that the fact that Dunn and Gamma wagons took off but Iconeum had verbal support without votes made me feel like he had buddies not wanting to vote him. And you already know I don't like his replacement coming in and talking down at his play.

Bullet points:

Tone from entry
Disappeared from thread
Dunn and Gamma had wagons, ico had vocal support
Darby mentioned that ico was thread absent.

Let’s dig into this. If ico wasn’t getting support for an elimination, who was the scum driving that? Like, who are the buddies who were susp of him and weren’t voting him? Does the whole Datisi is a dragon whisperer bit play into that?

Given that he lurked into replacement, do you really think “He’s scum avoiding me” is a better explanation than “He’s busy Irl?” Did you look at his activity elsewhere on the site?

Can you remind me what it was about his tone you didn’t like?

I have to agree with skitter that Darby wasn’t really showing the amished tell, if that even is scum indicative nowadays. Amished is wow-my-slot-so-scummy and all I see from Darby is wow-my-slot-so-not-here.

[Bingle]

Sooner

[Bingle]

True, but I guess it is the delusion being expressed too? Like stating he has done more than datisi on Ico is chest puffing and defensive if you ask me. Had he said "yeah, I kind of phoned it in", I might have more doubt. But he's doubled down when i pressed him.

Oh, don’t get me wrong, I think SA is scummy. I think this particular thing is a play style difference. Some people just don’t do cases.

And objectively I think he did push ico more than dats did, considering dats not being sure on ico was like half the reason that that wagon didn’t form. Both me and skitter were kinda trying to let them have room for whatever they were doing but ico was never really around to answer dats questions.

[Bingle]

Haven't read last few pages reading is not happening rn lool

I skimmed the last few because my brain is goddamn porridge

Is it apple flavored porridge? Asking for a

zombie

friend

[Bingle]

This exactly struck me as 'natural townie recall' - it sounrs like he really remembers how he felt at various points in the game, when i think scum probably wouldn't have that

Could you explain this? I see a lot of broad strokes, but not a lot of little things that would be indicative of a town frame of mind. Like, “I pushed him and people voted gamma instead” is exactly the kind of thing I’d expect scum with gamma to remember. What about his reasoning exactly are you liking for in the moment insights?

[Bingle]

but ico was never really around to answer dats questions.

Right, but dats was asking questions. That's largely absent in SA's play and then he calls to the heavens: 'why is Ico ignoring me!'

Sure, but that’s a lack of solving ico, not a lack of pushing ico.

I don’t think anyone has accused SA of trying to engage Ico.

Which reminds me, I need to go back and look at dats’ reasons and decide if that’s convincing.

[Bingle]

have y'all caught scum yet?

Still comfortable on the gamma train, but I’m pretty sure that something smart guy is informed if you want to check out his iso.

[Bingle]

For a second I thought you were talking about gamma and I was really confused.

[Bingle]

If ico wasn’t getting support for an elimination, who was the scum driving that?

That's a Day 2 question but probably someone pushing Dunn and/or Gamma or the people who said they might vote him later but didn't when I wanted them too (although skitter and Datisi did go on to.vote Iconeum later so they did follow through) or Almost50 because he had zero interest in having that conversation with me.

Given that he lurked into replacement, do you really think “He’s scum avoiding me” is a better explanation than “He’s busy Irl?” Did you look at his activity elsewhere on the site?

That would explain what you are telling people I said, sure. What it doesn't explain is what I actually said. He was here and made like 15 posts in a row and none of it acknowledged the only person voting him.

Can you remind me what it was about his tone you didn’t like?

Tone? I don't know, that's not really something I'm good at reading into. It's hard to try to explain your version of my case rather than my own.

I know we both have pretty sexy avatars, but I am not in fact VP.

As far as the questions go: the first one is pretty relevant, given that your position is "Ico is scum because scum were driving the elimination elsewhere." I'd expect at least some amount of looking to see if scum were in fact driving the wagon elsewhere.

The second one is also relevant. Why would Ico have responded to a vote on him as a player of either alignment with limited time when said player wasn't attempting to engage and there was a player who was? Like... Your complaint becomes entirely meaningless with basic context. What post of yours did you specifically expect Ico to respond to?

How would you describe:

the original knee jerk "I've just read my Role PM and I'm gonna play this way" stuff

if not as a tonal read?


If I'm wrong on what your case is, maybe make your case clear.

[Bingle]

Also please include links to the post you're quoting at the very least if you're going to insist on handtyping the quote tags instead of using the board function. I had to go back and make sure you weren't responding to VP saying almost the same things as me and someone paying a little bit less attention might not have realized you'd responded to them at all.

[Bingle]

The post 1287 was quoting, for reference:

So you know the original knee jerk "I've just read my Role PM and I'm gonna play this way" stuff you already quoted. You already know that I feel after he disappeared he avoided me after I voted him and tried to get people to join me. You already know that the fact that Dunn and Gamma wagons took off but Iconeum had verbal support without votes made me feel like he had buddies not wanting to vote him. And you already know I don't like his replacement coming in and talking down at his play.

Bullet points:

Tone from entry
Disappeared from thread
Dunn and Gamma had wagons, ico had vocal support
Darby mentioned that ico was thread absent.

Let’s dig into this. If ico wasn’t getting support for an elimination, who was the scum driving that? Like, who are the buddies who were susp of him and weren’t voting him? Does the whole Datisi is a dragon whisperer bit play into that?

Given that he lurked into replacement, do you really think “He’s scum avoiding me” is a better explanation than “He’s busy Irl?” Did you look at his activity elsewhere on the site?

Can you remind me what it was about his tone you didn’t like?

I have to agree with skitter that Darby wasn’t really showing the amished tell, if that even is scum indicative nowadays. Amished is wow-my-slot-so-scummy and all I see from Darby is wow-my-slot-so-not-here.

[Bingle]

That scares me though because I can't just stay on one tab so I worry about losing a post.

alternatively, you can include

Code: Select all

[post]Postnumber[/post]

That way people who are trying to find context can at least follow the link back to where you started from.

[Bingle]

Yeah, that's fine. If you want to get super fancy you can make the link highlight the text by doing:

Code: Select all

[post=postnumber]These are the words coming out of my mouth.[/post]

Ends up looking like

There's no reason we can't help each other out while debating who to sacrifice to the volcano gods for a bountiful harvest.

[Bingle]

Harder to do on mobile, monkey, although that does let you link to external threads.

Technically I guess you could do the quote tag posting manually too, although the formatting is harder to remember:

Code: Select all

[quote="In [url=post url]What you want the link to say[/url], Author Name"]Text[/quote]

That's a spicy Banana.

[Bingle]

@ bingle the bolded + repeated 'and you already knows' felt townie to me

Why would town SA be more likely to remember Ico didn't respond to his vote than scum SA?

[Bingle]

Will ketchup later.

[Bingle]

Do you think you a scum hydra would fake dissonance in thread to appear more townie?

Only the good ones. Weaponized hydra dissonance is a powerful tool in the hands of a decent scum player.

[Bingle]

Two people having the exact same reads isn't likely unless the reads are fake. You accused me of having fake reads so I figured you'd understand this.

True enough, although I've seen (been in) hydra's where the dynamic is that one of the players takes lead and the other is functionally a sanity check, which leads to a single reads list and a primary member of the hydra.

[Bingle]

DArby is cunning enough to fake that as scum.

I think I've seen Darby in a game recently (although I don't remember which one) and thinking his play was good. I also don't remember what alignment he was. But gth I wouldn't put it past him. I'll update this after I'm caught up and can look to figure out which game that was.

[Bingle]

Stop reading my mind OK BINGLE

[Bingle]

she loves complete sentences

This can't be true. I post almost exclusively in complete sentences and she always tunnels me.

[Bingle]

Its the way he worded it, he seems annoyed at ico ignoring him
~ skitter

:/

How is this towny recall? Not a big fan of this read from you. It seems poorly defined and elusive, like you're trying to justify a townread as opposed to actually thinking SA is towny.

baltar/sleepless/iconeum scumteam

where do i pick up my paragon scummy

Title fairy thread, I'm p sure. I think mastina handles that.

+ enchant is doing even less recently

Yeah, that's a stale read that probably deserves to be reconsidered. Stop giving me things to do and solve the game already dammit.

dats you look more and more aligned with ico/darby >.>

~ skitter

:/

Ugh. Are those really Pookys reads? You're supposed to be obvtown

What's your issue with them? With the obvious exception of VP being below Pengy I see nothing egregious there.

there is a joke here about mommy and daddy picking favorites between their children but i'm not quite witty enough to make it

I call pooky in the divorce. No offense skitter, but he brings me more interesting setups to review.

[Bingle]

bingle, have you gone over my ico case yet and what is your opinion on that slot at this point in time

I hadn't, but I'm doing so now.

Spoiler: Recent Dats posts about D'Argon slot, spoilered for size

things that have pinged me wrong about iconeum the dragon:

- the "i have zero scumpings so far" in 61. it's not unreasonable to not have scumpings, but something about purposefully calling it out made it seem a bit forced - like he thinks town!him *would* be having scumpings by that point so he wants to cover his ass there.

- i think i already talked about it, but the "why are you worried about not having a read on me yet" (93, 509). like, it reminded me of scum!ico who sometimes has the habit of pre-emptively building a push on me, but the issue is if he builds it too early.

- shading vp in 513 but then voting dunn in 519 is kinda ???. now, i don't think it's scummy in of itself, but further through his iso, i'm not sure i get the vibe of him actually trying to sort through dunn/vp.

- also, the way he seemed very certain on dunn being a solid yeet for today just feels... agh, icky. i'm not sure if i'm making things up here, but something about being read to *yeet* dunn already feels kind of off, at least based on the way he presented it.

- this is maybe more within tinfoil territory, but 909 and 928 feel kind of contradictory to one another. specifically the parts where he first says that he's been liking my posts, and then there's the 1v1 we'd been having, and then that i should know i haven't done enough for him to townread me. but, i thnk the "i've been liking your posts" implies that there is material for him to townread me, except that material is "tainted" by the 1v1. to then turn it into "you haven't done enough" feels ???, like he realized he has to defend the weird null read on me so he's turning it into that. and the "if you're honest with yourself, you should know" just feels manipulative. :/

61: The point seems a little tinfoily. Seems to me that if Ico thought he should have scumpings and wanted to head that off he'd, you know, make some up.

93/509: I can see this. Given the assumption of Ico is scared of towntisi, this actually seems like a pretty solid point to push on. Not a lockscum case, but a pretty sheepable one.

Where is Ico showing he's very certain on Dunn? I more got the impression he was disengaged and didn't have strong reads from his posting.

Overall, I think most of this case is adequately explained by Ico just not being around, but the angle of Ico coming after you too early out of fear is one I should look at.

i don't know why, but darby's 1188 and 1190 give me a scummy vibe, in a sorta cognitive load way? what i mean is, the answers to those questions seem relatively easy to figure out if you read the post that skitter is literally quoting there. and the fact that he's *still* asking for clarification there strikes me as if he didn't quite get it because way too many other things are on his mind (i.e. he be informed)

someone let me know if i am getting too biased here, but those two just pinged me as Wrong

I think you're over complicating things with that read. He's straight up asking why skits is shading a townread on him, I don't think you need to examine cognitive load to see why that might have a scum motivation.

ok ok ok baltar now that you are here i need your professional opinion on something

so i saw this post:

To answer Penguin’s question earlier, I do have a read on [datisi] now: town. You’re absolutely tunneling me but I think it comes more from not knowing how I play vs actively taking my questions in bad faith.

this post struck me as kinda townie. maybe i'm wrong on that beign townie bc trying to placate your pushers is a thing sometimes but this tone and timing just seemed *too* placate-y it circled around into town

however, this post:

But shouldn’t that be a d2+ thing? This logic seems weird.

seemed to be hedgy shady bullshit and i don't like it

discuss

I think Darby tr-ing you shows that you're not S/S more than that he individually is town. The latter post seems to be genuine confusion given the context of page 57

Overall, I'm not really impressed by the case. It seems like a lot of what you're concerned about would be a result of Ico just not being in the game as much as Ico being scum in the game.

[Bingle]

dats you look more and more aligned with ico/darby >.>

~ skitter

:/

i think i am Interested in knowing what that post called for a :/

skitter seems really invested in the narrative of a you/ico scumteam which seems really unlikely from where I sit. I actually think that skitter has worse associations with Ico than you do, and the repeated attempts to paint you as S/S is a big red flag for me. I've explained a couple of times why I think you're not partnered (spoilered below) and she drops the issue, but it keeps coming up again and I don't understand the thought process at all.

Spoiler:

Fair enuf!

what are your present thoughts on gamma and penguin?
(And i would ask abt ico/dats as well but i believe u said u were waiting there)

~ skitter

I think gamma is scum. Basically I’m getting the feeling that he’s trying to present the thread in a certain way. Particularly the post when he said my “objection” to A50s meta tell was relevant seemed manipulative.

Pengy hasn’t really been doing anything but isn’t getting a lot of attention. I think if baltar is scum they have a lot of equity together, but I’m also townreading baltar so I’m not super worried there atm.

I think you’re wrong about ico/dats being S/S. Making the ico read this drawn out seems like a weird way to go for dats if they’re buddies. They’d have to know that the longer they drew it out the worse it would look if they failed to produce results and it’s not like one of them would die conveniently over the night at some point to prevent the need for a grand reveal or follow through. Unfortunately, I could easily see either of them being scum at this point: dats leaning on ico being absent to not have to engage as much is a tinfoil I have, and there’s just a whole lot of nothing from ico.

bingle, do you think i'm purposefully not engaging with this game? like, do you genuinely have a problem with the amount of content i've had so far?

Do I think you haven’t posted enough? No. Do I think the amount/content of what you’ve posted makes you town? Also no. Do I think focusing on ico when you did was a convenient way to produce content that scum you could take advantage of? Yes. Do I think that town you wouldn’t have focused on ico there? No, although that’s more based on how skitter is treating your ability to read ico than firsthand knowledge of your ability with him.

I agree that you’d probably have a more nuanced read/plan by now if you/ico was S/S though.

[Bingle]

the overall lack of solving almost everyone else but still pushing for the dunn wagon - like sure maybe he didn't say he's certain on dunn but that's the overall impression i believe his play was giving due to not much sorting of other people or considering other possible yeet targets

I dunno, I kind of attribute the not sorting other people to a general lack of engagement over all. I might be being too generous with how much of that was RL though.

I don't particularly dislike an Ico elim, I just don't feel that he's the obvscum other people seem to think he is.

[Bingle]

i think you're missing my point

not sorting other people = can be explained by irl so nai

not sorting other people AND having decent confidence in wanting to yeet dunn = concerning

like either he didn't have time to sort properly so he shouldn't have a confident yeet target in mind, or he had time to solve properly to have a yeet target in mind, when then evidence of that sorting would be visible. it can't be both.

That actually makes a lot of sense.

I kind of wish Ico was still here to answer to this.

[Bingle]

DArby is cunning enough to fake that as scum.

I think I've seen Darby in a game recently (although I don't remember which one) and thinking his play was good. I also don't remember what alignment he was. But gth I wouldn't put it past him. I'll update this after I'm caught up and can look to figure out which game that was.

To date I have no finished games as scum.

Found it. You were killed by my event (also read: the one everyone hated) in squid game. Weird, I go the impression you were more experienced from your D1 play there.

[Bingle]

Can we not speedlim b4 we get a replacement pls

Yeah. If we're gonna eliminate someone before they have a chance to post, it should be enchant so that Penguin can endgame me before I get back to the thread again.

Explode: Penguin

[Bingle]

can i get a simple explanation of why gamma is scum that's more than "not solvey" because i am not in the mood to be rereading a full iso to be trying to figure that out

Mountain out of molehills tell from A50. Gamma rebutted, but I don't really buy the explanation of "I thought that VP complaining about the postrate was actually a big deal" even if it had been what he was doing and more importantly I don't think Gamma thinks that as town.

WRT to the not solving, the couple of things that stand out to me are his jump at Ico's readslist for having people who were probably not aligned in his D1 PoE after it had already been brought up and defended against as a way to dogpile on Ico while the wagon was popular and the thing that literally just happened where he called you town and then shaded you for not putting in enough effort.

Overall, he hasn't really seemed interested in finding scum, just with going with the flow. Also, he spewed himself not PR and so if the options are close I greatly prefer that.

[Bingle]

I dont know how to explain it further, the way he worded it felt very townie to me

I don't think you're struggling to explain it. I understand why you might think the wording was towny and if that is the explanation that's fine. The question I have is why when I asked what you thought was a towny recall of things you backtracked into a very different reason to townread him. It makes me think the original reason you gave for townreading him was bullshit, which is even worse coming from a hydra who should be talking about reads internally than from a normal player.

[Bingle]

i'm p sure that gamma is viable today

Me too!

[Bingle]

Fun fact: Mtn Dew is the game sparking this interaction!

I feel like this would be a more dramatic reveal if you weren’t burying the lead.

[Bingle]

@mod

: Could you poke a Penguin? (Unless he's V/LA, in which case just leave salmon in the thread overnight to make sure he comes back.)

[Bingle]

Gamma looks like he's continuing to make mountains out of molehills wrt the whole you thing (He seems to have given up on the assertion that he was pushing you for things that were very important, akshually). Gamma burying the lead on his meta case also doesn't impress. "There's something about the Mountain Dew game that makes me think something about skitter and/or pooky that makes this back and forth useful, but I'm going to not actually say what it is with like 3 days in the phase" doesn't strike me as a likely town thought process.


The Pooky-dra is coming across as pretty genuine in their case by comparison. I still have reservations about skitt, but none of them have to do with this interaction at all. In fact, I think pooky is coming across as pretty solidly town here.

[Bingle]

An update on the A50 read in case I don't get to it before night and die: A50 is still a townread. At this point, if I die he should not be considered untouchable locktown.

Frustratingly, making me argue his case for him is something town him would do here, but there have been a couple interactions where I expected him to act a certain way but he didn't that are casting doubts on his alignment. It's possible that he's coasting on an early Bingle misread and is just letting me make an ass out of myself defending him.

[Bingle]

I forgot whom I was going to vote if push came to shove and Gamma was still unattainable, so I'm probably not budging.

I think it was Gamma.

[Bingle]

fuuuuck deadline is close
I will try to make some time here later today

Not as close as it looks, but yeah. It pauses at 24 hours if we have pending replacements and we currently have two, an outstanding prod, and a player due a prod in an hour. (also, skitter is due a prod if she doesn't alt slip soon, so she'd better get on that.)

With that said what do you make of Gamma the last few pages? It's pretty much the big thing that's happened since you've been away and I don't recall you talking much about Gamma one way or the other.

[Bingle]

I have a town read on both Datisi and VP. I want to apply pressure. Having pressure as a replacement should be a good reaction test.

I still would want to hear them out.

Assuming PP and Enchant both stay in, we have roughly 24 hours between Dunn replace and EoD. Do you think that's actually enough time to get a reaction, read into said reaction, and decide if it's worth eliminating there? If the player who replaces in isn't caught up when they do so, do you think they'll respond to a lot of pressure on themselves? If they are won't they realize they're under pressure? Suffice to say, 'pressuring Dunnslot' (or really NM slot) isn't going to do much. We need to start consolidating now so we're not scrambling for a lim last minute.

Might I interest you in this shiny Gamma wagon that has the two amazing qualities of not being on you and being a possible elimination?

[Bingle]

Dunnstral (4)- DArby, Gamma Emerald, Datisi, VP Baltar

That actually goes for all four of you.

Are you expecting a Dunn elim in the last 24 hours of the day or is this a vanity wagon? If the latter, why?

[Bingle]

I was responding to 1648 and it made me go back and look at who was actually voting Dunn.

[Bingle]

i did skim the past few pages earlier and i felt like i didn't feel like voting gamma because [incomprehensible radio static]

how necessary is it that i go over those pages and actually form cohesive thoughts about gammawagon?

How important is it that you do that specific thing? Decently so. It's the second biggest currently viable wagon and a major interaction in the game so far - and having your opinion on it would be nice.

How important is it that you do ~something~? Very. If we just sit around waiting for replacements we're going to be sitting around waiting for replacements until A50 dies of old age. Monkeys are only supposed to live 40 years after all.

[Bingle]

rally people to his poverty.

I am absolutely not trying to start a pyramid scheme in this specific mafia game.

And yeah, RL is more important, Dats. GL with the edumafication stuff. I hope whatever you're working on works out.

[Bingle]

-Gamma getting upset now when he didn't seem to care he almost died earlier. Not sure this means anything but it stood out

@Gamma- Is there a reason your motivation in this game has increased?

@SA- Is there a reason you didn't ask Gamma or F/G about any of the things that struck you as off in the back and forth?

[Bingle]

I didn't see anything I needed cleared up from either one of them

-Gamma getting upset now when he didn't seem to care he almost died earlier. Not sure this means anything but it stood out
-Gamma seeming to at the same time have strong opinions and care a lot while forgetting details and saying he would rather lose and have fun than win and not. It feels contradictory but again I don't see scum motivation in that.
-Why do I feel like I'd be scum reading Pooky if not for being in a hydra with skitter. Ahhh my brain lol.

I feel like all of these are things worth following up on if they’re worth bringing up in the first place. Talk to me about F/G. What are you townreading about skitt/scumreading about pooky? I’m pretty much the opposite there, with pooky seeming town when he’s here and skitter giving me anxiety. Also do you have a gamma tow case you can make/link?

[Bingle]

What about the push on him makes you think town? Are you scumreading A50/me strongly enough that you think the wagon is tainted? Do you think the lack of anyone interested is town indicative?

[Bingle]

fix'd

Also, I’d argue that to one degree or another 2/3 of these names are lhf-ish. At a certain point saying “you’re going after lhf” becomes synonymous with “you’re pushing scummy people.”

Fuck, to not be going after low hanging fruit you’d be pushing a PoE of me/f+g/VP/Dats. Everyone else seems pretty minimal impact from where I sit.

[Bingle]

Shower thought for the day before I leave for a bit: does it seem odd to anyone else that Gamma has scumread p much everyone pushing her except me?

[Bingle]

Like how is it even reasonable for you to think that I think I have an exact team solve on day 1 with 0 flips?

I mean… there have been like 4 different cases of people saying it’s scummy that someone doesn’t have a viable team this game and I’ve thought it was ridiculous every single time.

[Bingle]

I know I have to big shoes to fill here but I hope I won't disappoint

Do cows have shoes? Welcome dw!

[Bingle]

If you're a neighborizer this game you're legally obligated to neighborize me pooky

No neighborize in the setup. If you ask nice he might give you a parachute though.

[Bingle]

Not sure what you mean by lack of anyone interested.

I’ve been actively campaigning for a gamma elimination for a literal week. There are two votes on gamma. Prior to that there were 4 votes: you who were voting there as a compromise and pp who was technically a player in this game I guess.

[Bingle]

Give me big mech diagram STAT

Not a complex enough setup to need one. Scum team is three goons town had three of {Jk, tracker, activated IC, 1-shot cop, 2 shot vig}, chosen by scum.

Setup design notes: independent of plist: Functionally all of those are ICs in an open, so IC is pretty much a given. JK, similarly, is disproportionately more power than the others so is a VERY unlikely inclusion. Cop favors a short game and tracker favors a long game, while vig is just high swing. I think the existence of a vig is slightly clearing for lurker slots, but not strongly so. If there is a vig, a stronger than average scum team implies cop while a weaker than average scum team implies tracker. D2 begins with a cop hypoclaim regardless of whether there’s a cop in the setup unless the cop has already flipped. (Not claimed, flipped)

I will not comment on the setup implications of the existence or non existence of the various roles on players alignments, but you can probably work it out. I wouldn’t share it because of pr/nonpr slips being likely here.

Further mech talk is probably not worth aorn.

[Bingle]

I'm full of whimsy

That's a weird way to spell whiskey.

[Bingle]

good point

No it isn't.

Like how is it even reasonable for you to think that I think I have an exact team solve on day 1 with 0 flips?

I mean… there have been like 4 different cases of people saying it’s scummy that someone doesn’t have a viable team this game and I’ve thought it was ridiculous every single time.

[Bingle]

I know I've heard the term before, but can someone remind me what "schoolwork" was??

I think it's one of those euphemistic job titles, like how custodial engineer means janitor or politician means garbage or meteorologist means someone with a map and a bunch of clingy weather stickers and a propensity for lying.

[Bingle]

Toogeloo replaces Dunnstral!

I’m conflicted. On one hand this is awesome because toog. On the other hand the game is now confirmed bastard because toog always stops multiple scum kills and there’s only supposed to be one per night in this setup.

[Bingle]

Nope. You’re definitely a global doctor. Deal with it.

[Bingle]

I am still not fully convinced he is Town, but it could be that D'Arby is also Scum with a stronger role which explains why Gamma prefers his own lim over D'Arby's.

Okay, yeah A50 is lock town.


A50, this is a 3 goon setup.

[Bingle]

I'm 10 pages in. I want to vote skitooky from what I've seen. It's Thanksgiving weekend, I'll probably be fully caught up by the end of it.

Someone tell me bullet points to be mindful of.

I’ll do a thread tl;dr when I’m not mobile, but by far the most important thing is that VP likes IPAs and we need to teach him about beer that doesn’t taste like sweaty socks.

[Bingle]

Okay, yeah A50 is lock town.

please say sike

Nope. Town monkey. We flip me before never flipping him if it comes down to it. Sorry.

[Bingle]

lmao I SR the 3 top wagons, this is funny

Who’s gonna say this is scummy this time?

[Bingle]

pls explain

@Gamma: reading A50 is an art form. I could potentially write pages about how I go about doing so. When I have a lockdown on him (which I’m not quite at, but we’re getting close) you’d be better served trying to eliminate me than him, such is my accuracy. I cannot always lock town town him or figure out scum him, but when I’m sure you can take it to the bank.

Tl;dr I know him well enough to be able to distinguish the difference between his genuine tinfoils and his fake ones, as well as read into the intent of his 5D chess gambles. There is a slight chance he’s trying to manipulate me specifically here, but doing so this early when it’s not at all guaranteed I actually catch scum him is asking for trouble.

As far as what he’s actually doing? He’s dropping specific tells that make him look like he’s a pr in a way that is likely to draw pr and scum attention. When confronted with tacit protection from me he’s ducking the thread in a way that would make most people reconsider their townread on him, but which is further likely to draw unwanted from scum attention from PRs. He explicitly does not care about that, and that’s plus town specifically in his case. Note: I don’t think this makes him a PR, necessarily, as A50 loves playing the wifom game with intentionally dropped or tells, and with me in the game he expects me to take his wifom game and make it explicit to further thicken the smokescreen he’s putting in front of the other town prs.

Also, his gotcha moment on you followed by sitting back and looking to see what happened is pretty bog standard for a town A50 looking to leverage one solid read into more solid reads.

VP on the other hand has just been playing a very solid game. I can see his reasoning in most cases, and everything he does pings as trying to drive forward a game state with high readability. He’s not afraid of stepping on toes, making unpopular stances, or being seen as going after lhf. His one weird thought moment was accusing you of being less engaging with the thread, but he didn’t do so in a way that put any pressure on you while he did try to pressure Dunn with it and your response to it pretty much confirmed to me it wasn’t him trying to throw weak shade at a partner for distance.

I have literally never been wrong about an A50 read I was this sure of.

[Bingle]

Seeing some Bingle things that make me go, "Eewww." Lots of IIoA, but there was a hypocop suggestion which is bad. Scum love hypocop because it narrows down who the cop is. Why would we need to hypocop with a 1 shot cop anyways? Any 1-shot cop is going to vehemently defend or attack their scan regardless, and I highly

doubt a 1-shot holsters on Night 1 anyways.

That’s kind of the point?

Scum hunting for a one shot cop who has already hypoclaimed a result on N2 is like the best possible scenario for town.

[Bingle]

i was hoping for a lesson on how to read a50 but okay

Step one is to assume that there's 3 more layers to whatever you think would be reasonable. Step two is to be nuts enough to be able to tell the difference between when his layers are actually meant to confuse or meant to look like he's trying to confuse but not actually confuse. Step three is to realize that when he's actually actively trying to confuse the shit out of the thread he's town and when he's trying to look like he's trying to confuse the shit out of the thread he might be scum.

In this case, though, it's simpler. A50 outthought himself. He started at what he thought was a reasonable base and started constructing a web of paranoia and deceit without realizing that the center of the web was something not true of the setup. Scum him very rarely tries to fake making a fake pile of paranoia tinfoil on a faulty perception of the truth as the base and when he does it always has hints that it's unnatural.

[Bingle]

Note, this method doesn't generate reliable scumreads of A50, just reliable townreads.

[Bingle]

Someone tell me bullet points to be mindful of.

Game has been mostly stale with the same few scum/townreads being bounced around and little motion based on that.

PP/Dunn/Enchant/N_M/Ico may as well have not been playing for the majority of the game. Cakez disappeared for a long while but had a really solid start and is apparently back now. A50 stopped playing seriously after he convinced me to champion the Gamma wagon for him. Gamma has been alternating between odd boughts of hyper aggression over little things and complete limp noodle syndrome at the drop of a hat. SA has been around, but has been fairly low impact throughout. I'm scumreading the slot based on the low impact while still being around enough to try to impact things. He just really seems like he's content to let things happen rather than being involved.

Ico Slot

Early game Skitter thought ico was acting weird and pointed Dats at him, and then skitter and I kinda put a pin in that read waiting for dats to come to a conclusion. Ico proceeded to lurk out the thread before replacing. Dats did express a scumread there, but there wasn't a lot of time for pressure between that happening and the replace out. IIRC, basically the only thing Ico did was post a reads list where the bottom tier was {consensus scumreads+VP+Skitter/Pooky} and got called out for having a scumpool that was largely pushing itself (by SA, I think?). He claimed there were no associatives involved, and then Gamma jumped on that wagon immediately after for having a scumpool that was largely pushing itself. Dats later posted a "Why Ico is scum." blurb. I responded with the following, which I will link instead as it contains a bit of extra reasoning from Dats along with my takes.

bingle, have you gone over my ico case yet and what is your opinion on that slot at this point in time

I hadn't, but I'm doing so now.

Spoiler: Recent Dats posts about D'Argon slot, spoilered for size

things that have pinged me wrong about iconeum the dragon:

- the "i have zero scumpings so far" in 61. it's not unreasonable to not have scumpings, but something about purposefully calling it out made it seem a bit forced - like he thinks town!him *would* be having scumpings by that point so he wants to cover his ass there.

- i think i already talked about it, but the "why are you worried about not having a read on me yet" (93, 509). like, it reminded me of scum!ico who sometimes has the habit of pre-emptively building a push on me, but the issue is if he builds it too early.

- shading vp in 513 but then voting dunn in 519 is kinda ???. now, i don't think it's scummy in of itself, but further through his iso, i'm not sure i get the vibe of him actually trying to sort through dunn/vp.

- also, the way he seemed very certain on dunn being a solid yeet for today just feels... agh, icky. i'm not sure if i'm making things up here, but something about being read to *yeet* dunn already feels kind of off, at least based on the way he presented it.

- this is maybe more within tinfoil territory, but 909 and 928 feel kind of contradictory to one another. specifically the parts where he first says that he's been liking my posts, and then there's the 1v1 we'd been having, and then that i should know i haven't done enough for him to townread me. but, i thnk the "i've been liking your posts" implies that there is material for him to townread me, except that material is "tainted" by the 1v1. to then turn it into "you haven't done enough" feels ???, like he realized he has to defend the weird null read on me so he's turning it into that. and the "if you're honest with yourself, you should know" just feels manipulative. :/

61: The point seems a little tinfoily. Seems to me that if Ico thought he should have scumpings and wanted to head that off he'd, you know, make some up.

93/509: I can see this. Given the assumption of Ico is scared of towntisi, this actually seems like a pretty solid point to push on. Not a lockscum case, but a pretty sheepable one.

Where is Ico showing he's very certain on Dunn? I more got the impression he was disengaged and didn't have strong reads from his posting.

Overall, I think most of this case is adequately explained by Ico just not being around, but the angle of Ico coming after you too early out of fear is one I should look at.

i don't know why, but darby's 1188 and 1190 give me a scummy vibe, in a sorta cognitive load way? what i mean is, the answers to those questions seem relatively easy to figure out if you read the post that skitter is literally quoting there. and the fact that he's *still* asking for clarification there strikes me as if he didn't quite get it because way too many other things are on his mind (i.e. he be informed)

someone let me know if i am getting too biased here, but those two just pinged me as Wrong

I think you're over complicating things with that read. He's straight up asking why skits is shading a townread on him, I don't think you need to examine cognitive load to see why that might have a scum motivation.

ok ok ok baltar now that you are here i need your professional opinion on something

so i saw this post:

To answer Penguin’s question earlier, I do have a read on [datisi] now: town. You’re absolutely tunneling me but I think it comes more from not knowing how I play vs actively taking my questions in bad faith.

this post struck me as kinda townie. maybe i'm wrong on that beign townie bc trying to placate your pushers is a thing sometimes but this tone and timing just seemed *too* placate-y it circled around into town

however, this post:

But shouldn’t that be a d2+ thing? This logic seems weird.

seemed to be hedgy shady bullshit and i don't like it

discuss

I think Darby tr-ing you shows that you're not S/S more than that he individually is town. The latter post seems to be genuine confusion given the context of page 57

Overall, I'm not really impressed by the case. It seems like a lot of what you're concerned about would be a result of Ico just not being in the game as much as Ico being scum in the game.

Gamma

Gamma overall has been pretty lackluster this game. The first bit of importance came when she blew up at VP for trying to pressure her into voting Dunn. She spent ~20 pages voting VP as a, and these are her sentiments, middle finger to tell him to fuck off on trying to control her. A50 posted a "Gamma is scumclaiming" thing and later shared the reasoning at Gamma's insistence:

Btw, I'm dead serious about Gamma here. Not gonna say why in details, but he knows as well as I that this is a scumtell of his.

As fir your scumtell; you told me that -and I loosely paraphrase from memory- Scum!you tries to pick on minor and irrelevant subjects to debate about, thus appear like you're doing something. Your jump on Baltar'a phrasing sound EXACTLY like what you were talking about. Your overreaction to it; trying to make it look like a focal point of the game is so much exaggerated it does indeed look like you making something "big" out of nothing.

I won't debate about this anymore. You told me how to potentially catch Scum!You and I'm only following your advice.

Note: Gamma implicitly agreed that this is a scumtell for her, but disagreed that pushing VP was an overreaction and insisted that VP was being crazy scummy by telling her to vote Dunn if she didn't want him to eliminate her.

Later, she walked that back.

After that post, I expressed my confident townread in A50, although it was only upgraded to locktown just now, and A50 dipped the thread. He's been trolling and making me do all the work to push the wagon ever since.

Gamma had a wagon build here, dismantling the Dunn wagon in the process. PP switched, Skitterdra voted there, and Gamma made a post about how fighting the wagon was a waste of time, spewing herself as not a PR. SA sheeped because of said post. Skitter changed her mind. Dunn and I questioned SA on why gamma, which was originally explained as "She seems like she doesn't think she can contribute to the game" but has since evolved to she was null and he didn't like the Dunn wagon. I have spent the entire game since that point trying to rebuild said wagon and having no success until just recently. Skitter and Gamma had a back and forth which I think made Gamma look really bad but was apparently super controversial reads wise.

As far as I know, the case on Dunn is that he was actively not doing anything, even when pressured.

The most valuable ISOs are probably Skitters/Mine/Dats' in that order, but those are probably also the meatiest. Vp would be a good starting place if you want to get your feet wet without having to basically read the entire thread.

[Bingle]

@A50

Setup design notes: independent of plist: Functionally all of those are ICs in an open, so IC is pretty much a given. JK, similarly, is disproportionately more power than the others so is a VERY unlikely inclusion. Cop favors a short game and tracker favors a long game, while vig is just high swing. I think the existence of a vig is slightly clearing for lurker slots, but not strongly so. If there is a vig, a stronger than average scum team implies cop while a weaker than average scum team implies tracker. D2 begins with a cop hypoclaim regardless of whether there’s a cop in the setup unless the cop has already flipped. (Not claimed, flipped)

I'll be gone the rest of the day, btw. I'm doing TGiving a day early with the family and I need to start cooking. Have fun and don't start any fires without me.

[Bingle]

Heya all new peeps

- i like andante so far
- toog's meh, wanna hear more abt why he dislikes us
- slight townpings on dwlee but not a strong read yet
- i feel really, really, really good about bingle town now (and thus a50 town)
- i'm not really sure what to do with gamma's self-vote or if its ai, we might go back to gamma

Now sure how around i'll be rhis weekend

~ skitter

UNVOTE:
VOTE: gamma

how come this vote switch happens now?

I'm full of whimsy

this is a very funny response but how am i supposed to copy your reads now

I was sort of wanting to see what people's reactions would be if I changed it up with no explanation. Gamma's giving up/not really giving up makes me feel like it was a good choice.

Bingle is also my strongest townread at this point + we do get probably the most info about player interactions from a Gamma flip. Lots of plusses to just following through with this path at this point.

bingle is town

therefore a50 is also town

fuck i'm good at this game

Well, guess I’m dead then.

[Bingle]

Fuck, I already submitted a nightkill on you. Outplayed again.

[Bingle]

Who thinks I’m town atp?

This is a legit question I’d like everyone to weigh in on

TIL I’m not part of everyone.