Open 842: Diffusion of Power [Postgame]

[fua]

I’m so confused right now.

Who are the hydras again? What people constitute them so I don’t get confused when they’re talking about the individuals?

Friendly reminder that I know exactly zero people here and their metas even less, so I likely won’t be much help at the moment.

[fua]

Oh, duh. It says on the list of people. Sorry about that.

[fua]

Thank you!

[fua]

Hey GuiltyLion! Still love the avatar.

What do you expect from Ydrasse this game?

--PA

Why ask this?

[fua]

And yeah, I joined because I was asked by the mod. Presumably because I was active in a normal game.

The only familiar face to me is Ceph and I don’t know his mafia game at all.

[fua]

It's easy to feel like helping out when you relate to someone/something huh...

Strange add-on, but I also feel pocketed so I think it’s fine.

[fua]

Hey GuiltyLion! Still love the avatar.

What do you expect from Ydrasse this game?

--PA

Why ask this?

Why did post 110 in particular need to be poked at?

Just genuinely wondering because I’m confused as to what the end goal of the question is.

[fua]

It's easy to feel like helping out when you relate to someone/something huh...

Strange add-on, but I also feel pocketed so I think it’s fine.

It's just that I didn't want it to seem like I'm trying to be

extra

nice just to pocket you or to appear a "goody townie shoes"

initially I thought about only saying "read post 0/page 1~3" where we talk about the hydras, but since I was also pretty lost about the hydras at the start I felt like going the extra mile in the reply

and yes, I'm self conscious of what I post as town as well. It's kinda a pain in the ass if people begin suspecting me for silly stuff like that.

No biggie. I just thought it seemed strange to outright say ‘hey, look at me, I relate to and empathize with you’. It felt a little stilted to me, but I’m just trying to find things to look at since I want to not sit on my ass and be useless this whole time.

[fua]

Sorry I'm late, I was busy sleeping. Is it too late to flip a coin to decide who I should hard tunnel day 1?

There aren’t that many sides on a coin.

[fua]

VOTE: Shirou

Very self-aware. Almost too self-aware, if I do say so myself.

[fua]

VOTE: Shirou

Very self-aware. Almost too self-aware, if I do say so myself.

Why is that scum indicative?

Scum tend to be very self-conscious about how they come off to others since, you know. It’s kind of their job to hide their alignment.

[fua]

It's easy to feel like helping out when you relate to someone/something huh...

Strange add-on, but I also feel pocketed so I think it’s fine.

If you feel pocketed why is it fine?

I wanted to write it off as paranoia.

[fua]

It’s the open acknowledgment of self-awareness coupled with his LAMIST attitude and admission of uselessness that made me suspicious of him to begin with. The part I quoted in particular stands out as pretty odd to me.

[fua]

what's up everyone what IS the tea rn

Oh wait! Finally someone I’ve played with before.

[fua]

But yeah. It’s not a hard scumread or anything. Just a gut vote because I don’t know people enough to have real reads on them yet.

[fua]

But yeah. It’s not a hard scumread or anything. Just a gut vote because I don’t know people enough to have real reads on them yet.

You sure put a lot of words around it for a gut vote.

I sure did.

[fua]

I can say more words around it if you keep asking questions.

[fua]

Interested in how claiming confusion over hydras is anything but NAI. Like, I've seen scum fake confusion over the mechanics to appear +town. But over hydra composition?

expressing confusion is easier than engaging with the game & they offered excuses for not finding scum before even trying

I am engaging with the game though. In fact I did so right after that post. So that’s kind of a skewed way of looking at things without context.

[fua]

Just because I’m not great at it doesn’t mean I’m not trying.

[fua]

Every post is special. Maybe even this one.

VOTE: Ceph

[fua]

Snap vote based on how he’s ignoring the context surrounding my post.

[fua]

That’s because it is OMGUS. He said expressing confusion is easier than engaging with the game while ignoring that I’ve been engaging since then, which feels dismissive.

[fua]

Do you like my other posts?

[fua]

I don’t think I like this interaction. You feel too overexplainy.

[fua]

nQ townish imo.

I don’t think I like this interaction. You feel too overexplainy.

The phrasing of this post is weird. What do you hope to get from Ceph by telling him that he is too overexplainy?

I'm saying my thoughts and reads out loud. Why is that questionable?

[fua]

Like. What?

[fua]

actually though I am thinking fua's jump in is worse than Ceph's push

I townread Tejate, but I can imagine Ceph being town misfiring on him. I think if that was a T-T spat, fua's play vibes like scum looking for a distraction outside the scrutiny their own slot is receiving, and leveraging Tejate/Ceph to do it

VOTE: fua

Yes, I want a distraction from my own slot, so instead of enlisting my buddies to do something or waiting my turn, I just hop in balls-out into a pre-existing feud right after people express suspicion of me, because I'm eager to get away from the pressure of zero votes. You have solved the case very early into day 1. I'm not sure what you think my level of experience is or how well-versed I am in how to play this game, but this isn't it chief.

[fua]

Like. If people misrep me I’m going to step in and say something, no?

[fua]

you people sl'd fua for a little airheadedness in their opening posts?
might as well tie *me* to the stake right now then

really though what I see from their iso is that they're going for more of a conversationalist playstyle rather than an essayist one.

I resent being called an airhead but I can respect where you're coming from.

What exactly is a conversationalist playstyle? I play how I want.

[fua]

When you think about it, what are essays without conversation to base them on...?

[fua]

actually though I am thinking fua's jump in is worse than Ceph's push

I townread Tejate, but I can imagine Ceph being town misfiring on him. I think if that was a T-T spat, fua's play vibes like scum looking for a distraction outside the scrutiny their own slot is receiving, and leveraging Tejate/Ceph to do it

VOTE: fua

Yes, I want a distraction from my own slot, so instead of enlisting my buddies to do something or waiting my turn, I just hop in balls-out into a pre-existing feud right after people express suspicion of me, because I'm eager to get away from the pressure of zero votes. You have solved the case very early into day 1. I'm not sure what you think my level of experience is or how well-versed I am in how to play this game, but this isn't it chief.

so you think of yourself as a relatively experienced/well-versed scum player?

otherwise this post doesn't make a lot of sense.

I would say I’m not a dumb scum player, yes. I’m also not a dumb town player either.

[fua]

I think that was very well-implied in the post I made.

[fua]

Pretending to misunderstand or misinterpret my post isn’t really going to get you anywhere, you know.

[fua]

You actually did research on me? I’m flattered.

[fua]

I don’t really care because you haven’t made your point yet.

[fua]

Or if you have I haven’t noticed.

[fua]

I’m modest. Also the scum game win had 8 replace outs (no exaggeration) and the vig killed a confirmed townie. What Hobbes is implying is that not only did I jump into a conversation out of nowhere (which isn’t true since Ceph explicitly referred to me), but that my solo naked vote on him was scum-indicative and an attempt to turn focus off of my slot.

Also I’m using an alt and wanted to hide my identity there just in case. So who knows whether I was being honest or not?

[fua]

I fully admit to at least some cognitive dissonance but it’s not a scumtell given my above post.

[fua]

Okay then.

[fua]

You can expect me to throw my vote around wherever I please.

[fua]

also fua, do you've any takes on Tejate? You didn't seem to talk too much about him even though he's one of he most popular topics (and I think you gave your take on most other popular topics in the thread).

Probably town unless he's scum fucking around. I dunno yet.

[fua]

I think the amount of people saying they scumread me or that they'll watch me closely is a little insincere. This post in particular with the follow-up vote seems like a pile-on with poor reasoning that's opportunistic at best and scum-indicative at worst.

nQ townish imo.

I don’t think I like this interaction. You feel too overexplainy.

The phrasing of this post is weird. What do you hope to get from Ceph by telling him that he is too overexplainy?

[fua]

I can see implosion and GL as a scum pairing.

[fua]

You can expect me to throw my vote around wherever I please.

I don't have a read on you yet but I think I know more or less better than before in how to approach your slot now.

I still don't know how to approach Tejate though, like Cephrir said before, the way he phrases some stuff seems purposeless and trying too hard to come off as "I'm town trying to solve the game", but at the same time I feel that newbie energy from him that tells me it may simply be his personality.

but

@Tejate

, I'm kinda curious, why do you keep saying fua/other people is "tying up" your/Cephrir slots? I tried to but couldn't find any posts that seem like they are trying to "tie up" your slot with another one. Could you perhaps show me some posts that made you think that?

To add on to the last part, I don’t think I’ve said Tejate’s name even once before now.

[fua]

I'm curious how Shirou and fua view each other after that exchange. Maybe I'm mistaken but none of that looked like attempts to solve the game state or sort each other's alignment. Shirou's questioning was very directed so I have to imagine he got something out of it, and he even said he was satisfied with the answers he got.

So my question more explicitly is, do either of you lean more town or scum on the other after that conversation?

Shirou’s questioning felt weird as you can see by my reaction right there. I was clearly having none of it. I would say he fell a little as far as reasonable doubt goes since he clearly did research on my past games, but I also have three more pressing scumreads first.

[fua]

Alright, let's take this one by one. I'm feeling pretty good this morning compared to last night.

You can expect me to throw my vote around wherever I please.

I don't have a read on you yet but I think I know more or less better than before in how to approach your slot now.

I still don't know how to approach Tejate though, like Cephrir said before, the way he phrases some stuff seems purposeless and trying too hard to come off as "I'm town trying to solve the game", but at the same time I feel that newbie energy from him that tells me it may simply be his personality.

but

@Tejate

, I'm kinda curious, why do you keep saying fua/other people is "tying up" your/Cephrir slots? I tried to but couldn't find any posts that seem like they are trying to "tie up" your slot with another one. Could you perhaps show me some posts that made you think that?

Three, actually. Maybe it was just me seeing shadows where there weren't any on account of feeling pretty groggy, but I'll point them out anyways.

Spoiler: Ceph/Tejate

The interaction between Tejate and Ceph from 238 on is pinging me. 238 itself does strike me as a lot of nothing that

could

be scum indicative. Ceph calling him out on it though, for some reason I didn't like it even though I generally agreed with the sentiment. And overall I feel like Tejate is coming out of that back and forth looking towny, and Ceph null-scum.

Do not like this post. At all. I understand trying to read intent through wording, but what about Ceph's wording here was weird? Even I admit that I was shooting myself in the foot last night by letting LAMIST slip through more than actual town play. It was hardly a push, let alone an argument, so why is this perceived as AI?

I want to TR Tejate because he does seem earnest. Plus I don't see S/S in Tejate + Ceph, and currently I like Ceph for scum. But I feel like Tejate isn't, I don't know, rocking the boat at all? I guess you don't have to do that to be town, but when I read most of his posts it feels kind of narrow and flat. I'm not seeing anything that makes me think "oh yeah, he's trying to pursue lines of thought and look for new angles to solve from".

Should probably re-ISO him but I'm out of time tonight, likely won't be on again until tomorrow.

Again, I'm not sure what gives nQ the impression that it's not S/S? Like, yes, statistically speaking if you take any two random players the chances of it being two scum are low, but what exactly is giving them this impression that a scum!Ceph means that town!Me is likely? Once again, I would like to emphasize that so far myself and Ceph have barely interacted, and our interaction so far was mainly because we both happened to be on the thread at the same time. As much as I'd love to take this townread and go, this argument genuinely pings me as strange. I would

really

like some elaboration.

actually though I am thinking fua's jump in is worse than Ceph's push

I townread Tejate, but I can imagine Ceph being town misfiring on him. I think if that was a T-T spat, fua's play vibes like scum looking for a distraction outside the scrutiny their own slot is receiving, and leveraging Tejate/Ceph to do it

VOTE: fua

For this post it's less the post itself and more the implications of it that set me off. I think this one I might have actually misread into thinking Guilty was implying our alignments should be tied. The least interesting post of the three for me, but I'll list it here so I can show you where my wild conspiracy theories are coming from.

I'm still not really sure I understand this push against Ceph now that I'm looking back with a clearer head. He didn't really make even a soft push against my slot, just some mild shade which I barely even acknowledged. From my perspective, it makes it difficult to see these arguments as anything but weird.

I know you’re flattered and all, but I didn’t push Ceph because of you and I fail to see how you could ever get that impression.

[fua]

Why do you uphold that I was trying to tie your slots to each other if I never even mentioned you?

[fua]

I just got back after an extended F5 break so I still need to sort out my thoughts, but man this timeline is looking... very weird so far. I'm still not sure I fully understand fua's logic here. How exactly was Ceph "overexplainy"? And why are you tying our alignments together? The most major interaction we've had so far is me asking him if he has anything that stood out for discussion since I felt like post 172/173 were pretty weak threads but I couldn't find much else.

[fua]

What if it’s SvS and you slipped because your alignments ARE tied to each other?

[fua]

It’s okay, everyone makes mistakes.

[fua]

Town:
North
Morph
Amazonian

Townlean:
Ydrasse
Redtea

Null:
NumberQ
Imaginality (Not playing)
Shirou
Tejate

Scum:
Cephrir (Equity with Tejate if scum flip.)
Implosion/GL

[fua]

fua, why morph town? i was just thinking it's a little alarming i don't have any reason to townread them yet

I’m townbinning the hydras for now because I don’t understand their playstyle yet.

[fua]

So my question more explicitly is, do either of you lean more town or scum on the other after that conversation?

I was starting to scum lean fua after that post before they explained it and now I'm back to null, so you could say I improved my opinion on them?

But more importantly than that...I kinda think I got information from that exchange that fua likely wouldn't want me to explain in detail. It isn't game-related but it helps out in the game you could say?

fua, why morph town? i was just thinking it's a little alarming i don't have any reason to townread them yet

why nsg, too? i don't feel like she has done anything

I like how she’s approached the game so far and I feel like her posting is notably better than some others here. I can’t find any reason to scumread her which is more than I can say for a few people.

[fua]

Oops. Fat fingered the Shirou post cause I’m on mobile.

[fua]

Maybe I have, maybe I haven’t. If you think her scum meta is identifiable to a person who’s played with her before then I can listen to what you have to say. I’m going based off of what she’s posted here thus far.

[fua]

If you need me to name something I think her suggestion of the top posters sitting back for a while is a good idea, especially since we have a person who hasn’t posted still.

[fua]

Redtea is actually looking at my ISO and taking context into account instead of voting with poor reasonng and dumping on to the pile like a couple of my scumreads have already. NSG also falls into that category. I acknowledge that redtea needs to post more though which is why they aren’t fully town.

[fua]

I just have a soft spot for people who correctly discern my alignment, I suppose.

[fua]

actually though I am thinking fua's jump in is worse than Ceph's push

I townread Tejate, but I can imagine Ceph being town misfiring on him. I think if that was a T-T spat, fua's play vibes like scum looking for a distraction outside the scrutiny their own slot is receiving, and leveraging Tejate/Ceph to do it

VOTE: fua

Yes, I want a distraction from my own slot, so instead of enlisting my buddies to do something or waiting my turn, I just hop in balls-out into a pre-existing feud right after people express suspicion of me, because I'm eager to get away from the pressure of zero votes. You have solved the case very early into day 1. I'm not sure what you think my level of experience is or how well-versed I am in how to play this game, but this isn't it chief.

this post is not a good look, my vote stays

you feel extremely defensive, leans on sarcasm extra thick to try to imply that voting/scumreading you is dumb, and is the implication here supposed to be that scum you would never hop into any feud? How else would scum find things to push on or reasons to scumread people?

Where did the "solved the case" nonsense come from? Did my post give you the impression I felt I had "already solved"? Why?

No, just incredulous that you’re agreeing with the statement I made. Not really ‘hopping into a feud’ if Ceph explicitly mentioned me to begin with, which you conveniently ignored and painted it as just me stoking the flames between him and Tejate. And again, I was being sarcastic.

[fua]

I just have a soft spot for people who correctly discern my alignment, I suppose.

I thought you claimed to be an experienced mafia player? You know if you are town, some scum will attempt to townread you and pocket you, right?

Mostly just that I wouldn’t be so stupid as to directly do what you’re saying. If people you think are scum are trying to pocket me then I must be town.

[fua]

Maybe I have, maybe I haven’t. If you think her scum meta is identifiable to a person who’s played with her before then I can listen to what you have to say. I’m going based off of what she’s posted here thus far.

I was wondering if your read of her was informed by prior games played.

I never form reads based on outside games anymore.

[fua]

I can see implosion and GL as a scum pairing.

is this because of any specific interactions between us, or just because we are both voting you

It’s because you have no interactions with each other and yet pray to the reach gods to try to fabricate a reason to scumread me within less than a page of one another. But that’s just why I think you could be paired even outside of you both individually being scum.

[fua]

Mostly just that I wouldn’t be so stupid as to directly do what you’re saying. If people you think are scum are trying to pocket me then I must be town.

I'm not saying anyone is trying to pocket you (necessarily), just pointing out that you don't seem to be considering it. If you are town I would expect you to be considering it. like if I did know for a fact you were town, then for me redtea stock is almost certainly tanking hard, yet you townread them for ?? reasons

I just did consider it. The conclusion I arrived at was that I don’t think it’s pocketing. Or at the very least the conclusion they arrived at makes much more sense for a townie actually trying to solve the game than yours.

[fua]

If you need me to name something I think her suggestion of the top posters sitting back for a while is a good idea, especially since we have a person who hasn’t posted still.

The only thing that pinged me was that she kinda jumped to your defense when I expressed my eyebrow-raise at your post about Shirou being LAMISTy.

Which is kinda kneejerk on my part. I feel like it's very easy to paste that kind of label on someone's post. Your subsequent reasoning about your Shirou read at that point was decent reasoning, hence my not pushing you further on it.

Fair play. It’s not like people haven’t spoken on behalf of others here before, though.

[fua]

But yeah. It’s not a hard scumread or anything. Just a gut vote because I don’t know people enough to have real reads on them yet.

You sure put a lot of words around it for a gut vote.

this seems unfair – the original post and vote was pretty succinctly put and the elaboration only came after being explicitly asked for it

This is also correct, so… iunno.

[fua]

Or at the very least the conclusion they arrived at makes much more sense for a townie actually trying to solve the game than yours.

Do you honestly believe townies should see you as town by now? why? what things have you done that scum you can't do? Is your respect for your own scum game that low?

and I want to point out to you, they didn't even arrive to a conclusion on your alignment, they just said your playstyle was "conversationalist". That doesn't show me a solving mind that has stakes in the game

No, I just think your argument for the initial scumread was very bad because it functions off of two hypotheticals, tries to push a narrative, and completely ignores what one of the people you said was misfired town said in the first place. The fact that you’re doubling down and also ignoring my comment on that means that we’re not going to get anywhere with this conversation, so I humbly bid you adieu and will let someone else sort this out. Good talk, though.

[fua]

If you want further elaboration, you also tried to change the subject immediately when I pointed out my reasoning to try to latch onto weak spur of the moment reads. You can keep your vote on me, though. Not going to try to convince scum that I’m town.

[fua]

VOTE: GuiltyLion

[fua]

Just curious, though: What do you make of Tejate’s point that people are trying to tie him and Ceph together? Because you certainly pushed that note when you voted for me. Why can’t you be trying to pocket Tejate by going against popular opinion and TRing him?

I feel like if GL flips scum that implicates implosion and potentially clears both Ceph and Tejate? Not sure though.

[fua]

I just have a soft spot for people who correctly discern my alignment, I suppose.

I thought you claimed to be an experienced mafia player? You know if you are town, some scum will attempt to townread you and pocket you, right?

Ding. You ignored the point I made in my rebuttal and immediately switched to poking at a townlean of a player who doesn’t have that many posts.

[fua]

Mostly just that I wouldn’t be so stupid as to directly do what you’re saying. If people you think are scum are trying to pocket me then I must be town.

I'm not saying anyone is trying to pocket you (necessarily), just pointing out that you don't seem to be considering it. If you are town I would expect you to be considering it. like if I did know for a fact you were town, then for me redtea stock is almost certainly tanking hard, yet you townread them for ?? reasons

Also ignoring 398 in favor of continuing the redtea discussion. I have a townlean on him for now based on a quick and instinctive D1 readslist. Deal with it.

[fua]

What do you make of Tejate’s point that people are trying to tie him and Ceph together? Because you certainly pushed that note when you voted for me. Why can’t you be trying to pocket Tejate by going against popular opinion and TRing him?

I do think anyone claiming to tie Cephrir and Tejate together would be making a mistake, yeah.

You're not wrong that I made some assumptions and suggested a narrative. I don't have any hard data so I offered a hypothetical that made sense to me and pushed it to see what would happen

I'm not trying to pocket to Tejate cause I'm town, but it's certainly not unreasonable for someone to suspect me of doing that, and if that's what you believe you should argue for it

Which is what you did by saying they’re in a feud that I was trying to stoke the flames of.

I was just wondering because you have particularly circular logic in that part of your argument against NSG and redtea applies to you as well.

[fua]

I mean, you don’t really have any progression on Tejate and the first time you mention him you say he’s a solid townread with zero reasoning. Which seems less believable to me than someone trying to consider a different perspective.

[fua]

Which is what you did by saying they’re in a feud that I was trying to stoke the flames of.

I didn't say you tried to stoke the flames of it? You DID jump in and voted a player who was already fighting another player, and I could imagine scum in your spot choosing to do that. I never argued or suggested that you were trying to flame the Tejate/Cephrir fight from the sidelines, moreso I thought you were trying to capitalize on creating an environment where Ceph/Tejate might be dualing wagons

I was just wondering because you have particularly circular logic in that part of your argument against NSG and redtea applies to you as well.

I'm sure I do things at time that will look suspicious to other players, however I have the good fortune of knowing my own alignment so I don't have to sort myself for the intentions behind what I'm doing.

If you're confused about why I'm doing what I'm doing, or if you want me to look at NSG or redtea, you can do that. I'm not really interested in proving myself town to you at this stage

actually though I am thinking fua's jump in is worse than Ceph's push

I townread Tejate, but I can imagine Ceph being town misfiring on him

. I think if that was a T-T spat, fua's play vibes like scum looking for a distraction outside the scrutiny their own slot is receiving, and

leveraging Tejate/Ceph to do it

VOTE: fua

In the same post you say that Ceph is misguided in his targeting of Tejate and simultaneously saying that I’m leveraging the two of them to escape pressure. How is it wrong to categorize this as tying them together and why do you say that I was trying to start dueling wagons with a single naked vote? You still haven’t addressed my point that my SR of Ceph was completely unrelated to the Tejate interaction and that I responded to him because I was being explicitly mentioned and misrepresented.

[fua]

fua have you ever seen someone vote or fos you and go “gosh, I’m town but their reasoning here sure is solid”?

I mean, several other people in this game have said that it’s understandable if people scumread them for (X) reason. So if your point is that town always thinks that reasoning against them is bad then that’s clearly not true and also a weak argument to begin with.

[fua]

everyone keeps talking about me and tejate having a fight and i don't really feel like that's a thing that actually happened

I literally couldn’t care less about what happened between you and Tejate and I’m saying the interaction wasn’t a factor like GL claimed.

[fua]

In the same post you say that Ceph is misguided in his targeting of Tejate and simultaneously saying that I’m leveraging the two of them to escape pressure. How is it wrong to categorize this as tying them together and why do you say that I was trying to start dueling wagons with a single naked vote? You still haven’t addressed my point that my SR of Ceph was completely unrelated to the Tejate interaction and that I responded to him because I was being explicitly mentioned and misrepresented.

dude are you understanding the conditional/hypothetical nature of that post or not

I said "I can

IMAGINE

Ceph being town misfiring on him"

because I had just said I was pinged a bit by Ceph's aggression, but then I thought about it more, thinking about how the last time I saw Ceph as scum he was laid back and not this aggressive, and thought "you know it's totally possible Ceph is just wrongTown here"

and then I said, "suppose Tejate/Ceph is T-T, what would scum!fua do", and I thought finding a reason to vote Ceph would be a perfectly logical play from you there, so I wanted to pressure you on it

none of this is me asserting like 'yeah, definitely this is

exactly

what's happening', it's me thinking about a possible framework for the game and trying to fit it onto you and see what you do.

I know you have ~ reasons ~ for SRing Ceph, but frankly I think it's easy to fake a reason to scumread Ceph, that doesn't matter as much to me right now. I can imagine town!you or scum!you having that reason to vote him.

If you think it’s equally likely for town me and scum me to have that reason to vote for him then why assume it’s alignment-indicative and cast your vote for me in the first place?

[fua]

fua have you ever seen someone vote or fos you and go “gosh, I’m town but their reasoning here sure is solid”?

I mean, several other people in this game have said that it’s understandable if people scumread them for (X) reason. So if your point is that town always thinks that reasoning against them is bad then that’s clearly not true and also a weak argument to begin with.

that's... not even close to what i'm saying? my point is you seem especially acerbic toward people that have expressed suspicion of you. I literally asked you one question and then emptyvoted you and you're calling me your tied biggest scumread and speculating about who I'm scum with. It seems like a bit of an overreaction.

I dislike opportunism more than I dislike people scumreading me. It’s also really the most notable thing that’s happened in this game considering how people can’t stop talking about me, so I figure it should factor into my reads a little.

[fua]

nQ townish imo.

I don’t think I like this interaction. You feel too overexplainy.

The phrasing of this post is weird. What do you hope to get from Ceph by telling him that he is too overexplainy?

I'm saying my thoughts and reads out loud. Why is that questionable?

And to answer the original thing: that's not what I was calling questionable, like I said, it's the phrasing that I found weird. The phrasing where you're talking

to

cephrir about how he's scummy.

Why is that weird? I’m already in a conversation with him.

[fua]

I dislike opportunism more than I dislike people scumreading me. It’s also really the most notable thing that’s happened in this game considering how people can’t stop talking about me, so I figure it should factor into my reads a little.

I just flat disagree that opportunism is scummy on d1. My vote absolutely was like 80% opportunism. Wagons are Good For The Town on d1, actually.

Well, you found 1 town, so I can’t disagree.

[fua]

I will say this though, frankly, your reasons for townreading redtea suck and you should re-evaluate there. Again, they didn't take any real stance on your alignment, just buddied up to you while offering a generic vague statement about your playstyle that has nothing to do with your alignment

I’ll just reevaluate and watch further then.

[fua]

I’m a very quirky person. I don’t do things by the book.

[fua]

Okay then. I’ll only voice my thoughts and opinions when it’s convenient and there’s nothing else going on, then. Have you considered that it’s not a tactic and that I genuinely interpret those posts that way?

[fua]

hi

I've no interest whatsoever of getting into this argument that seems to lead nowhere but I just want to state that if anyone pays attention fua is making some rather silly arguments at some points. I don't think it's necessarily alignment indicative, it's not uncommon to find people that will intentionally argue for dumb points just so they can win the discussion especially in a mafia game, but like, I'll publicly give one clear example and only one because I've no interest in starting to argue with fua now that I know they are that kind of person.

This is only

half

of a fua post and there's already a lot to uncover about the "tactic" of:

"pointless/silly arguments that try to appear reasonable just so that the discussion can go longer and force your opponent to either back off or to continuously explain why it's wrong, only for you to keep sending them nonstop since it's so easy to make up bullshit and exhaust your enemy".

I hate this "tactic" that people even IRL often do unconsciously because of their personality, so I can't help but be a bit mean here. It's like having a discussion that isn't an actual discussion.

In the same post you say that Ceph is misguided in his targeting of Tejate and simultaneously saying that I’m leveraging the two of them to escape pressure. How is it wrong to categorize this as tying them together

Tying up together slots means you're tying one of the reads to one slot to another one, directly. Like "if Tejate is town, Ceph is town".

What GuiltyLion did was to

INDIVIDUALLY

find reasons to town lean Tejate and

entertain

a town!Ceph scenario. It's two separate reads, the unique connection is that it's individual reads that mostly take posts about each other as it's source, but that's not "tying up" slots together. It's having two individual reads on Tejate and Ceph based on their exchanges.

and why do you say that I was trying to start dueling wagons with a single naked vote?

You need to intentionally play dumb to not believe that even a single naked vote on someone that was under suspicious by quite a few people wasn't gonna contribute to perhaps creating a wagon which would further push Ceph to either push Tejate more or to eventually push someone as a reaction (it's normal to begin pushing people back when you're being wagoned regardless of alignment).

I know you don’t care for my arguments at all, so I’m just gonna say that I was voting Ceph without the intent to create dueling wagons and that was the crux of my point there and leave it at that.

[fua]

And yes, that’s AtE. Go ahead and scumread me for it. I love manipulating people’s emotions and coming up with bullshit.

[fua]

I do partially accept your apology, but I also think it was REALLY uncalled for and felt like a personal insult rather than just commentary on in-game habits. I would be lying if that sort of approach didn’t kind of demotivate me from offering my opinion on matters.

[fua]

Like. This is literally just how I play.

[fua]

I do partially accept your apology, but I also think it was REALLY uncalled for and felt like a personal insult rather than just commentary on in-game habits. I would be lying if that sort of approach didn’t kind of demotivate me from offering my opinion on matters.

Like. This is literally just how I play.

Sorry again...

If it makes it any better, even though I would probably kinda skim over if I felt like you got in a heated discussion that you would simply be acting too defensively, I would still nonetheless pay attention later on to your reads and the justification for that. Just not while you were in that heated arguing phase.

I don't want to mention the name of that player, but there's a rather popular player that...kinda...plays like that as well, and I do really respect them and would be very much inclined to sheep them if they felt confident in a scum read/town read, it's just that when they get into that kind of argument, I know I'll end up exhausting if I try to follow up on it.

I'm kinda having a bad day with my poor gacha luck and other stuff, so a bit of that may have leaked out in that post early, but please don't feel like as if I want you to stop playing or anything, I think I could have phrased that better because my intention was to say "I think fua right now is feeling defensive regardless of alignment and this is likely not a productive discussion, so I recommend we move on and if perhaps that kind of discussion sparks with me as one of the members, don't be weirded out when I don't engage it".

It's alright. I respect that you apologized. I will say that you almost certainly don't know who I am, but I forgive you for saying it and I can understand where you're coming from. I'm going to take a backseat for now since I've hogged too much of the thread, but thank you for being willing to at least listen.

[fua]

If you need me to name something I think her suggestion of the top posters sitting back for a while is a good idea, especially since we have a person who hasn’t posted still.

heh, this is the main thing I disliked from NSG. It's a very easy thing for scum to post; makes it look like they care about the game oh so much. Sure town can do it too, but something about the way she worded it felt wrong and kinda cookie cutter.

I’ve done it a couple of times in earnest as town, but I can see where you’re coming from.

[fua]

Alright well I'm not gonna spend another 2 hours reading over an early D1 list, so here you go. First person to tell me I'm an idiot and that all of my reads are wrong gets a free townread.

Spoiler: Reads list so far

Townie McTownerson

--- No one has received this esteemed honor yet.

Town-leaning

Ydrasse --- From what I have seen of their posts so far, they do seem to be in a mindset where they actually want to move things forward and discuss relevant topics. They were one of the first people that struck me as making an effort to move out of RVS, so I like them for town as it stands.
Shirou --- This wasn't really pinging me too much, and if I had posted yesterday they would have been pretty neutral. I

really

like their posts today so far. Going with topics other than the dominant one is something I generally like to see, especially if they're actually game relevant. While it seems like there's some dissent on this, I think their proposals weren't without potential value.

Neutral Town-lean

implosion --- I promise this isn't here just because they TR'd me. Their posts earlier in the day seem to be more silly, which I suppose is to be expected. Their logic, to some extent, seems to match up with my own on a few matters (particularly the Ceph discussion just after fua's vote) which gives me some slight confidence. I don't necessarily like the lack of explanation on some of their reads, though.
GuiltyLion --- This would probably be a neutral if not for 432. I actually quite like this as a response, and I appreciate the extensive clarification. This is the most major thing that sticks out to me about their ISO as it stands.

Neutral

nsg --- I feel like I haven't been given very much to work with here? Their post that pings me the most is the one where they asked the dominant posters to step back since not everyone had posted yet, but that doesn't feel very AI to me at all.
Ceph --- He does seem to be giving his thoughts on posts as they come in, but doesn't seem to have much extended discussion on certain topics. I'd probably re-evaluate on day 2. Still don't really agree with the reasons given for the current wagon.
fua --- I feel like I hardly need to explain, but this is here primarily because they gave me conflicting pings rather than few pings at all. Again, probably a slot I'd re-evaluate day 2.

Neutral Scum-leaning

numberQ --- As I have stated, I really, really do not like their posts on the Ceph situation. The way they were trying to frame it strikes me as very off. Given that this makes up the majority of their game content related posts so far, this really does not give me townvibes. I think their response is... fine, but not particularly amazing. Need some more time but my gut tells me bad things.

Scum-leaning

redtea --- As has been pointed out by several people, their ISO is quite tiny as it stands. The most major thing they have said is shrugging off suspicion of fua. I'll wait for this to post more but this slot doesn't exactly scream town to me so far.

Unranked

imaginality --- I have absolutely nothing to work with here. No posts, no reads.
Amazonian and morph --- Intentionally unranked. I have zero experience with hydras, so I'm gonna need some more time to sort out my thoughts on these.

[fua]

Alright well I'm not gonna spend another 2 hours reading over an early D1 list, so here you go. First person to tell me I'm an idiot and that all of my reads are wrong gets a free townread.

Spoiler: Reads list so far

Townie McTownerson

--- No one has received this esteemed honor yet.

Town-leaning

Ydrasse --- From what I have seen of their posts so far, they do seem to be in a mindset where they actually want to move things forward and discuss relevant topics. They were one of the first people that struck me as making an effort to move out of RVS, so I like them for town as it stands.
Shirou --- This wasn't really pinging me too much, and if I had posted yesterday they would have been pretty neutral. I

really

like their posts today so far. Going with topics other than the dominant one is something I generally like to see, especially if they're actually game relevant. While it seems like there's some dissent on this, I think their proposals weren't without potential value.

Neutral Town-lean

implosion --- I promise this isn't here just because they TR'd me. Their posts earlier in the day seem to be more silly, which I suppose is to be expected. Their logic, to some extent, seems to match up with my own on a few matters (particularly the Ceph discussion just after fua's vote) which gives me some slight confidence. I don't necessarily like the lack of explanation on some of their reads, though.
GuiltyLion --- This would probably be a neutral if not for 432. I actually quite like this as a response, and I appreciate the extensive clarification. This is the most major thing that sticks out to me about their ISO as it stands.

Neutral

nsg --- I feel like I haven't been given very much to work with here? Their post that pings me the most is the one where they asked the dominant posters to step back since not everyone had posted yet, but that doesn't feel very AI to me at all.
Ceph --- He does seem to be giving his thoughts on posts as they come in, but doesn't seem to have much extended discussion on certain topics. I'd probably re-evaluate on day 2. Still don't really agree with the reasons given for the current wagon.
fua --- I feel like I hardly need to explain, but this is here primarily because they gave me conflicting pings rather than few pings at all. Again, probably a slot I'd re-evaluate day 2.

Neutral Scum-leaning

numberQ --- As I have stated, I really, really do not like their posts on the Ceph situation. The way they were trying to frame it strikes me as very off. Given that this makes up the majority of their game content related posts so far, this really does not give me townvibes. I think their response is... fine, but not particularly amazing. Need some more time but my gut tells me bad things.

Scum-leaning

redtea --- As has been pointed out by several people, their ISO is quite tiny as it stands. The most major thing they have said is shrugging off suspicion of fua. I'll wait for this to post more but this slot doesn't exactly scream town to me so far.

Unranked

imaginality --- I have absolutely nothing to work with here. No posts, no reads.
Amazonian and morph --- Intentionally unranked. I have zero experience with hydras, so I'm gonna need some more time to sort out my thoughts on these.

Tantalus called— he wants his low-hanging fruit back.

[fua]

Haha. Balls.

[fua]

You didn't call me an idiot so I'm afraid I can't townread you for that.

[fua]

I don’t drink cologne, sorry.

[fua]

I also don’t know that word.

[fua]

roughly translates to "swagger"

I do have a lot of swag, but I'm afraid I'm not Sigmund.

[fua]

roughly translates to "swagger"

I do have a lot of swag, but I'm afraid I'm not Sigmund.

I know! Sigmund was a Pooky alt and you are not.

Also true. It's relatively easy to figure out who I am if you've played with me before.

[fua]

roughly translates to "swagger"

I do have a lot of swag, but I'm afraid I'm not Sigmund.

I know! Sigmund was a Pooky alt and you are not.

Also true. It's relatively easy to figure out who I am if you've played with me before.

Must we do this information asymmetry thing. I dislike it.

I mean everyone has access to the information that I'm not a Pooky alt since I played in a game with a Pooky alt. And Ceph, you personally know who I am.

[fua]

It seems like nQ wagon might be a popular choice for today? We should still explore our options, though.

This post gives me awful gut vibes and feels like it's supposed to go in the Scum PT.

[fua]

It seems like nQ wagon might be a popular choice for today? We should still explore our options, though.

This post gives me awful gut vibes and feels like it's supposed to go in the Scum PT.

scumslips straight out of a pt like that aren't usually a thing tbh.

We're playing with someone who leaked who scum is directly in the game thread when they were supposed to be dead. It happens.

[fua]

Also not literally in the scum PT necessarily. Just that it feels like a big thing of scum trying to blend in with town.

[fua]

It seems like nQ wagon might be a popular choice for today? We should still explore our options, though.

This post gives me awful gut vibes and feels like it's supposed to go in the Scum PT.

scumslips straight out of a pt like that aren't usually a thing tbh.

We're playing with someone who leaked who scum is directly in the game thread when they were supposed to be dead. It happens.

well that is certainly a Thing huh

Yeah. In the game redtea and I played together, they were posting comments on the game in the dead thread and ended up accidentally leaking who the scum was in the actual game thread itself.

[fua]

It seems like nQ wagon might be a popular choice for today? We should still explore our options, though.

This post gives me awful gut vibes and feels like it's supposed to go in the Scum PT.

Oh I see, are we hopping back on my wagon again? Let me explain: by sorting out a few suspicious people to start out our discussion, we create a smaller group to choose from later, wherein at least one of the group is likely to be scum. I think it could potentially put town in an advantageous position compared to if we individually look at all 13 people at once, wherein only less than 1/4th of the pool is scum.

Plus, I think we have enough content to do so.

If I see bad things I say something.

[fua]

roughly translates to "swagger"

I do have a lot of swag, but I'm afraid I'm not Sigmund.

I know! Sigmund was a Pooky alt and you are not.

Also true. It's relatively easy to figure out who I am if you've played with me before.

Must we do this information asymmetry thing. I dislike it.

I mean everyone has access to the information that I'm not a Pooky alt since I played in a game with a Pooky alt. And Ceph, you personally know who I am.

I don't, actually!

Exactly. Not an imbalance if nobody knows. But don't worry, it'll have zero impact on the game because meta is bad.

[fua]

Also not literally in the scum PT necessarily. Just that it feels like a big thing of scum trying to blend in with town.

meh

it feels so awkward tho like literally one of those "how do you do fellow kids" memes and tejate's felt a lot more ... composed i guess maybe in how they post that having something stand out like that to blend it is ?? to me

That's what I mean by an attempt to blend in. It doesn't feel like it's from a town perspective.

[fua]

Also not literally in the scum PT necessarily. Just that it feels like a big thing of scum trying to blend in with town.

meh

it feels so awkward tho like literally one of those "how do you do fellow kids" memes and tejate's felt a lot more ... composed i guess maybe in how they post that having something stand out like that to blend it is ?? to me

That's what I mean by an attempt to blend in. It doesn't feel like it's from a town perspective.

i guess i have trouble thinking like, as scum. someone can write that post and go "yeah this'll really make me seem townie" like even writing it someone would have to think how just ... bland it is?

What's the town motivation behind it?

[fua]

Agree to disagree.

[fua]

I actually agree with Shirou's analysis. That's a good plan.

[fua]

Good idea. I claim cop.

[fua]

Actually why

not

just massclaim now? We don't even have to say what night they work on-- just our roles themselves. We instantly narrow down at least one scum in a group through that alone.

[fua]

Oh no, I'm actually a cop. I just want to take away claim space.

[fua]

Why wouldn't someone just wait until Day 4 or 5 to claim when there's very little room or margin of error left?

[fua]

the reason we don't massclaim is that scum will shoot all the cops >__>

Okay. Well now you know that there's a confirmed cop right here. Do what you will with that information.

[fua]

eh

if I was scum I would love that opinion of yours

being able to claim later on "oh btw I'm cop and my inno is a dead guy from ages ago" is too much of a convenient fakeclaim here

There's barely any difference between claiming innos as soon as day start, and "waiting" to claim innos for town (when you consider the risk of the cop dying without ever saying someone was cleared, in fact it sounds like a swingy strategy)

However there certainly is a lot of benefit for scum to be able to hold on claiming until later. You want to make scum claim as soon as possible in this setup in my opinion. If you leave it all for when we massclaim, scum can fakeclaim whatever is the most convenient to counter our results by then.

This is probably a take we should give our opinions on. Everyone should comment on whether they are in favor or against cops claiming the innos as soon as day start.

I'm in

favor

. I want to lock scum to their claims as soon as humanly possible.

I wasn't really saying we should let cops skate by the entire day without claiming. I do think it should happen the day after the result is received. I just contested that it had to happen RIGHT at daystart.

However, after reading your next post, I do see what you're saying about making it risky for scum cop claims. Let me think about this.

Pros for letting cops hold onto their info, as long as they out it that day at some point:
- conversation can progress naturally without immediately being dominated by a cop result
- gives a chance for further scum interactions with the innocent party before everyone knows they're innocent

Pros for forcing cops to out inno results at daystart:
- forces scum to make a choice and be accountable to it

Though I technically have

more

pros in the "let them wait" list, maybe the pro in the "force them to claim" list outweighs both of the other ones. Also maybe I'm not thinking of every pro.

Oh no, I'm actually a cop. I just want to take away claim space.

Take away claim space, what?

There can only be a maximum of six cops at most.

[fua]

Anyway, I would suggest healing someone that's more widely TRed instead of me. Forcing scum to kill me and closing off space for them to claim in the future by confirming myself (LHF) as town is a good move, especially since it means one townie is confirmed right out the gate.

[fua]

I mean, I would probably have been likely to get run up and forced to claim anyway before my role activates. Confirming me through my claim is a good move because of how much of the day has been centered around me. Now in light of me being confirmed you can see what the opinions others have had regarding me are and discuss them in real time.

[fua]

Low hanging fruit. I'm an easy target for a mislim.

[fua]

Low hanging fruit. I'm an easy target for a mislim.

I don't think your cop claim puts as big a target on your back as you're saying, in a setup with at least 4 cops in it.

Obviously I'm not LHF anymore since I claimed cop.

[fua]

Low hanging fruit. I'm an easy target for a mislim.

Like 4 people have called you town already <,<

Pocketers! Pocketers, the lot of them! I've seen ye scurvy dogs and how ye turn on a dime!

[fua]

To be honest I'm not sure you were an ideal mis-elim target before claiming. I don't think as many people felt quite that strongly about your slot as you think.

Right now? No. In the future? Duh. I've been brushed off as having townie vibes in early game despite having scummy posts multiple times only to be turned on by scum later and mislimmed because I'm the easiest vote. At the moment I would be a difficult lim, but down the line I'm free range beef if someone decides they want a sacrificial lamb when they can't decide on a target.

[fua]

Low hanging fruit. I'm an easy target for a mislim.

I don't think your cop claim puts as big a target on your back as you're saying, in a setup with at least 4 cops in it.

Obviously I'm not LHF anymore since I claimed cop.

I misread what you were saying then. Though what I said before about there being 4 cops also applies here. EVERYONE will claim cop or doc, and on D1 no one has a result to back it up. Why would you claiming cop now be any different from you claiming cop at E-1? I can't imagine any scenario where we don't ignore you either way.

Just getting it out of the way sooner rather than later so that we can talk about it.

[fua]

Have you never put your ducks in a row and singled out potential miselims to push as scum? By taking one of those away and putting that fat towncred on myself I remove some of their power and give town time to talk about the events preceding my alignment and role reveal.

[fua]

If I do survive to the point where my role activates I'll happily oblige and claim my result.

[fua]

Why would I claim cop if I wanted to be null-read? Seems a little counterintuitive.

[fua]

{amazons}
{Shirou}
{fua, Tejate} -- ffery thought about having fua up one, but it's probably just all the Axe fragrance wafting through the thread
--------------
the rest of you fucks
--------------
{NSG, ydrasse}

Ydrasse because she's kinda looking like she doesn't really want to be active in the thread, and because her numberq vote looked like one of those bold moves she sometimes makes as scum, like she was hurrying to be at the front of the town parade.

NSG is also giving off thread-avoidance vibes and we're still not too thrilled with the way she threw herself in front of our comment to fua. hobnail boots, etc., though it wasn't exactly a line of questioning.

If ydrasse is scum and we're not just being paranoid, then GL's easy townread there after the dancegame becomes a point of great interest.

not enough data to make an educated guess, but kinda scum-leaning tea, and kinda townleaning imaginality

I liked ydrasse's thread presence yesterday, and I liked that at two times - with tejate and nq - she voted just as I was thinking they were suspicious. That's a terrible take I know, but I still liked it. I know she's started posting more now, but I have a headache and I'm going to bed, so reading that other than a skim will have to wait. Vacation is over, so I need to get back on a schedule.

Both heads are suspicious of nsg. Penguin doesn't like that she said the thing about holding off on posting and then didn't post herself. That doesn't bother me so much as I didn't like the post itself, and the interactions with you regarding fua felt wrong. Like it felt like a wrist slap rather than an actual defense or figuring you out. I pondered that it was a scum/scum conversation over fua because something didn't sit right. It just didn't feel like town talking to someone whose alignment she didn't know. I was hoping there'd be more today to see if I was chasing shadows here.

Anyway, I'm going to bed. Might follow along and post again if I can't sleep, but hopefully you don't see me until tomorrow. Don't think Penguin is going to get a chance to post tonight.

I LOVED her presence yesterday and was engraving that day 3 ticket. We've both been less than impressed today and have been thinking about her scum play in a few recent games.

On the gripping hand, her reaction to our reads list didn't strike me as bad, nor did her pushback. So, there's that. We'll probably have to kick the read around further before we settle.

-------------

Regarding the cop claim, I'm gonna stare at that post for a while, shake my head, and wonder out loud why I thought joining this game was a good idea.

BF is curious why I think joining ANY mafia game is a good idea.

You have no idea how bad the last game I was in was. You also underestimate how good I am at being mislimmed.

[fua]

I'll hold back

the part of my consciousness that wants to say the awkwardness on Tejate's posts is scummy.

I'll win

this war within.

Very subtle. I like it.

[fua]

I don’t know you or your alignment so it’s better safe than sorry.

[fua]

Have you never put your ducks in a row and singled out potential miselims to push as scum? By taking one of those away and putting that fat towncred on myself I remove some of their power and give town time to talk about the events preceding my alignment and role reveal.

What towncred are you getting though? That's my point.

Being town and explaining my thought process behind the claim.

[fua]

Have you never put your ducks in a row and singled out potential miselims to push as scum? By taking one of those away and putting that fat towncred on myself I remove some of their power and give town time to talk about the events preceding my alignment and role reveal.

What towncred are you getting though? That's my point.

Being town and explaining my thought process behind the claim.

I think it's a NAI thought process but fair enough I guess.

It’s a town thought process because I said it and I’m town.

[fua]

The point is that I’m not doing it as a late-day action though. We’ve got a lot more time left on the clock to discuss if you want.

[fua]

If you’re a doctor and think I have a chance of being scum trying to take focus onto them, then by all means feel free to prioritize someone else. Me dying will only confirm my role and alignment anyway, so…

[fua]

Kind of feels like fua is baiting a cop to target them with all this blatant LAMIST-ing. Which I guess is +town because scum wouldn't want to be targeted?

Me? LAMISTy?

Take that back.

[fua]

VOTE: Tejate Raichu

[fua]

Ah, also I guess unless they're scum together (which wouldn't be that weird considering their openings), I should probably trust Morph read on Amazon for now. Even if they were wrong on it at the moment, as long as they are alive they will likely correctly sort out Amazon correctly. If they die...well, we can cross that bridge when we get there.

For what it's worth, it's a very high confidence read for us. I'll be very surprised if they leave our "Utterly Town, never elim this" pile. We'd love to have 4 more reads of that strength, or even four more in that plus the second tier combined before the day ends.

fua's headed in that direction.

if you're that confident about it I'm happy there's one less slot to sort, but on hindsight it kinda also means if they are proved to be scum later on, we probably should scum read you for having the complete opposite of a good read on them.

You'll be happy to know I'm not scum and the point is that there's indeed one less slot to sort.

[fua]

It seems like nQ wagon might be a popular choice for today? We should still explore our options, though.

It seems like nQ wagon might be a popular choice for today? We should still explore our options, though.

This post gives me awful gut vibes and feels like it's supposed to go in the Scum PT.

Oh I see, are we hopping back on my wagon again? Let me explain: by sorting out a few suspicious people to start out our discussion, we create a smaller group to choose from later, wherein at least one of the group is likely to be scum. I think it could potentially put town in an advantageous position compared to if we individually look at all 13 people at once, wherein only less than 1/4th of the pool is scum.

Plus, I think we have enough content to do so.

If anyone wants clarification on my Tejate vote, I feel like this is a bad sequence of posts. When I call him out for his post in 557, he explains it as part of selecting a group of people to examine despite it being just one person under suspicion already. It reads a little like overeager scum shooting for a mislim and wanting to narrow down the eventual target than trying to decipher who scum is. I also didn’t really get a sense of trying to scumsolve from hsi readslist (which he didn’t really respond to my comment on) given it’s mostly LHF and townbinning players who have been townread already. He also has a very quick turnaround on me for having me as the third most likely to be scum on his list and it feels like he’s just trying to roll with the common public opinion while simultaneously not rocking the boat with anything controversial at all.

[fua]

552 also makes me feel better about calling Tejate town - this seems like a really likely way for relatively new town to feel about Shirou's play and it's something I think relatively new scum wouldn't think to say.

don't reveal my pet reasons to town lean him like that...it was supposed to be a secret until later on...

This also makes his post in retrospect a little weird considering after 552 is called townie, he does the same thing with me (who is also a top townread) immediately after my claim which reads as insincere and attempting to gain town credit.

[fua]

All I have to add is that if Shirou is scum, he's doing a damn good job at it.

I wouldn't call this definite town, but if fua is scum then they are clearly pretty ballsy. I'll also town-bin this for the time being.

The posts for reference.

[fua]

Eh. Not sure if I buy that but I guess I'll concede.

I openly said it was low-hanging fruit though. That means people who are easy to be scapegoated because they're lackluster or have done scummy things/are consensus scumread. Having a single original scumlean isn't really the most reassuring thing though, especially since you did say there was more than enough content to go off of. What's your opinion of NQ now?

[fua]

Townbinning was also the wrong word, I think I should have just said townreading. I get those two confused sometimes.

[fua]

Ah, low hanging fruit makes sense. Well, it is an early day 1 list. I can assure you people will be moving as the game progresses.

As for the matter of nQ, I feel like my thoughts remain largely unchanged. Even some recent posts ping me as... egh.

My take is that we shouldn't lim any of the inactive slots today. This isn't a game suffering for activity, so unless we think all 3 scum are lurking then I don't see an upside to basing wagons on activity.

This one makes little sense to me. We shouldn't base wagons on activity, therefor we shouldn't eliminate the inactive slots? Isn't that

basing wagons off of activity?

I have my eye on you then.

[fua]

nQ my point is half that I think it’s silly to categorically not lim less active slots and half to be snarky.

I don't know why this game in particular I keep getting misunderstood or misrepresented or whatever, but I did not say we should categorically not lim less active slots. I said I would rather lim a more active slot because it's day 1. What is limming imag, nsg, or redtea going to tell us about the rest of the gamestate? This early on, I'm more interested in voting a scummy slot who has actually interacted with other slots and might give us some associations day 2. And let's say we do wagon inactive scum. Then the rest of the team has carte blanche to bus their buddy and get sweet towncred. Whereas with an active slot, bussing is a lot harder and there can be clearer lines drawn after the flip irrespective of alignment.

I'm just saying there is more than likely scum amongst the semi-to-very active players, so even if there's also scum in the inactive players, why should we focus there on day 1?

Ah, low hanging fruit makes sense. Well, it is an early day 1 list. I can assure you people will be moving as the game progresses.

As for the matter of nQ, I feel like my thoughts remain largely unchanged. Even some recent posts ping me as... egh.

My take is that we shouldn't lim any of the inactive slots today. This isn't a game suffering for activity, so unless we think all 3 scum are lurking then I don't see an upside to basing wagons on activity.

This one makes little sense to me. We shouldn't base wagons on activity, therefor we shouldn't eliminate the inactive slots? Isn't that

basing wagons off of activity?

I think it's pretty obvious what I meant here. I don't know if you're misrepping on purpose or I'm just chronically not clear this game. Benefit of the doubt that it's the latter: If you look at the rest of the context of that discussion, you'll see I'm advocating that we not use inactivity as a reason to wagon someone this early in the game. Plus the above response to implosion.

NQ gets towncred for suggesting an active slot lim over an inactive one BTW. I like this post.

[fua]

Ah, low hanging fruit makes sense. Well, it is an early day 1 list. I can assure you people will be moving as the game progresses.

As for the matter of nQ, I feel like my thoughts remain largely unchanged. Even some recent posts ping me as... egh.

My take is that we shouldn't lim any of the inactive slots today. This isn't a game suffering for activity, so unless we think all 3 scum are lurking then I don't see an upside to basing wagons on activity.

This one makes little sense to me. We shouldn't base wagons on activity, therefor we shouldn't eliminate the inactive slots? Isn't that

basing wagons off of activity?

I have my eye on you then.

Just out of curiosity, what do you think my flip will actually prove? Let's go into a hypothetical. Let's say I am the wagon right now, I am hammered, and I flip town. What information do you gain from this beyond my role and alignment?

Cephrir is likely null, anyone who has a townread on you from early on is townlike, and NumberQ is skewed a little more towards scum than anything else. You flipping scum would give a lot more information because it sheds light on Ceph’s alignment further and basically confirms nQ as town unless you’re very good at bussing.

[fua]

I think pushing for someone inactive to go a long time before the day ends is scum-indicative and an attempt to avoid really solving or looking like you’re actively analyzing the game because there’s so little content from them in the first place.

[fua]

At worst on Day 1 an inactive vote should probably be a consensus to avoid a no lim before running out of time.

[fua]

My take is that we shouldn't lim any of the inactive slots today. This isn't a game suffering for activity, so unless we think all 3 scum are lurking then I don't see an upside to basing wagons on activity.

this is a bizarre take

lurkier slots are generally more likely to be scum, and if they're town they're limbait town that's better served getting out of the way

the ideal scenario is to lim a lurky slot whose content has been scummy when they HAVE been here, like redtea

I wouldn't advocate for NSG because I don't think any of her stuff has been all that scummy and I think with time / if she comes back, she'll put some effort into the thread

but I think advocating to

not

lim any inactive slots is weird on the whole

in general, it's easier for scum to find reasons to bullshit pushes on active townies than total lurk townies too

I disagree with this reasoning. I think it’s very possible for scum to be more excited about playing scum over a night whatever doctor and that can lead to a greater amount of posts in the thread. I agree that scum can bullshit a reason for a push on an active townie, but at the same time it’s so tempting and easy to wagon players who don’t fight back solely because they’re not here to defend themselves at all. Maybe not limming inactive slots is an odd declaration to make, but I can see where the sentiment comes from.

[fua]

As scum I’ve argued that voting out inactives as scum is a good thing because they don’t contribute and it removes places for scum to hide. On the surface this seems like a town-beneficial argument to make, but ultimately a miselim is a miselim that puts scum a step closer to winning— especially in a setup where every town is a PR.

[fua]

Oh yeah, I agree with your main point that limming a scummy inactive slot is probably not the move. Just not the initial thought process used to arrive at that conclusion.

[fua]

Current Readslist:

Town/Townlean:
Shirou
Morph (I feel a little more confident about placing them now.)
Ydrasse

Townbinned:
Amazons (Will come back to them later.)

Neutral:
NumberQ
GL

Scumlean/Scum:
Implosion?
Cephrir
Tejate

Inactive (Under 20 posts):
NSG
Redtea
Imaginality

[fua]

I'm just really offput by implosion for some reason. Can't quite put my finger on it.

Mutual, except I can~

This is a very strange post that sets off alarm bells for me. I can’t see a town motivation for making this.

[fua]

Feel free to explain it to me. I may well have misunderstood.

[fua]

Instead of asking why he just says ‘I feel the same way’ which is just weird and an attempt to brush off suspicion through OMGUS and undermining Morph’s own statement, which I think is scummy.

Hero solve is Ceph/Implosion/Tejate. Clearly this is correct.

[fua]

What’s your opinion on Morph?

[fua]

I think you took the statement too literally and completely at face value.

[fua]

I originally had them in townbin, but with their amount of content and the fact that I agree with multiple of their opinions I feel comfortable putting them in town until further notice depending on future flips.

[fua]

I like that answer a lot less than some of your other posts. You clearly understand that merely being active does not equal town if you're putting me among your scummiest slots. And mere agreement has never been enough for me to townread someone. Town is often wrong, and scum loves to exploit that. Are you sure that's it for townbinning morph?

Activity means more opportunities to read them and trace their footprints in the future. A similar thought process is ideal to me because I know I'm townie and for someone to be thinking the same thing without being prompted means that they're following a similar line of logic to the one I am. Also, I wouldn't know because I don't know their meta. Luckily we have 4-6 cops to determine alignment if you're feeling antsy.

[fua]

Their line of logic is less likely to be exploitation (from my POV) because they aren't really going for the low-hanging fruit or avoiding bringing new ideas to the table.

[fua]

and your scumreads are doing those things??

My scumreads are based on forming a team through association as well as their attitude in regards to piling onto certain wagons. I think Tejate (my top scumread) is one of the people doing those things and other people who are pushing for the elimination of inactive slots are making an effort to look like they're contributing as well.

[fua]

My scumread of you isn't just pushing LHF, it's the way you handled NumberQ's wagon that makes me suspicious in addition to leaning into the qualities that people have liked from you in an effort to be more townread. Your association with other mildly fishy slots to me only makes you more likely to be scum because of the suspicion cast onto my own reads from multiple people covering for each other and you. (Imaginality stepping in and speaking for implosion despite not being sure what to make of him in particular.)

Eliminating someone at random means that they have a chance of flipping town, but they also have a chance at flipping scum too. Part of mafia is using context clues to figure out someone's alignment in tandem with information you've already been given in order to discern what their motivations are. More content means that discerning their alignment is often easier than someone with less. So by your definition it's null at the absolute worst. And... you kind of just cited what you've been doing for most of this game, from sussing redtea/numberQ when their slots were called into question to defending specific players and preventing the tides from moving against them. Sudden turnarounds and speaking on the behalf of others make me a little wary for the most part and I think that my scumreads tend to do that the most.

Morph is bringing new ideas to the table by suspecting those who haven't been getting a lot of heat yet and being more objective in the way that they look at things. I don't really have a reason to scumread them and just saying that their activity means more reasons to townread them if they're scum or that they're good scum players isn't enough to sway my opinion.

[fua]

I mean yes I don't deny being good either, I just think fua is giving you a pass for behavior that you exhibit in every game.

I wouldn't know.

Or would I?

[fua]

Currently:

Would not lim: Shirou, Morph, Possibly Amazonians?
Ehh: Ydrasse, NSG, GL, NQ
Can be persuaded: redtea
Would lim: Ceph, Implosion, Tejate, Imaginality

[fua]

Right now I would be surprised if there

weren’t

at least two scum in that bottom row.

[fua]

I dont like ur odds on that bet mate

Who are your scumreads?

[fua]

No elaboration, just names.

[fua]

nsg, imaginality, maybe implosion

You literally just named two people in the bottom row.

[fua]

Currently:

Would not lim: Shirou, Morph, Possibly Amazonians?
Ehh: Ydrasse, NSG, GL, NQ
Can be persuaded: redtea
Would lim: Ceph, Implosion, Tejate, Imaginality

Right now I would be surprised if there

weren’t

at least two scum in that bottom row.

What does "ehh" mean, then? Because you're saying you'd be surprised if you're wrong on more than one person in that tier. Or more than 0 if redtea is scum or one of your stronger reads is wrong.

If there's a convincing argument I'll vote for them, but I'm not impressed so far. Redtea is one I wouldn't fight against and would lim are ones that I would want to happen.

[fua]

Currently:

Would not lim: Shirou, Morph, Possibly Amazonians?
Ehh: Ydrasse, NSG, GL, NQ
Can be persuaded: redtea
Would lim: Ceph, Implosion, Tejate, Imaginality

Right now I would be surprised if there

weren’t

at least two scum in that bottom row.

What does "ehh" mean, then? Because you're saying you'd be surprised if you're wrong on more than one person in that tier. Or more than 0 if redtea is scum or one of your stronger reads is wrong.

If there's a convincing argument I'll vote for them, but I'm not impressed so far. Redtea is one I wouldn't fight against and would lim are ones that I would want to happen.

[fua]

I mostly just mean that the number of reads that you are calling "ehhh" is inconsistent with your saying you'd be surprised if there's less than 2 scum in the bottom tier.

Ehhh can be any number of things. I would know because I said it.

[fua]

Their.

[fua]

Sloppy doppy…

[fua]

also I dislike that redtea wagon. They're more likely than not town to me and even if you can't see their slot that way, they've barely been here. You're mostly voting them for inactivity and not having much content to go off rather than because they've been really "scummy". It feels like almost a RVS wagon...except on page 40-ish.

It's fine I guess if it's just a "oh let's do a random wagon out of some gut suspicious" (literally like a RVS?), but a lurky slot that is a consensus scum read for almost everyone? yeah, doesn't feel a lot like scum to me either even outside of their content itself.

i feel differently. my hope was simply to get redtea to do anything, and i find that this method usually works. unfortunately we have the opposite of a vote-happy playerlist, and the result of that is that we can't build a pressure wagon on anyone at all. i feel this is depriving us of a valuable tool. i would happily vote-hop anywhere in about half the playerlist just to see what happens, but we don't seem to have enough players willing to use this tool.

Tej seems fun and shouldn't be limmed today for that reason alone

this statement seems like, wildly out of tune with the rest of your play

Use your tool and vote imaginality with me.

VOTE: Imaginality

[fua]

Looking a little more at imaginality's updated reads list.

Cephrir argued my suspicion of him is a playstyle thing. Well maybe but if so it's a convenient playstyle for scum to hide behind. Today's posts read a bit better maybe but I still have doubts whether Cephrir's really trying to solve.

This reminds me intensely of how he was giving his reads in the guardians game. Specifically this post; there was a ton of stuff in that post that was essentially a list of reasons to read a player in both directions without an actual commitment to a read. Here his take on Ceph is "he gave this argument, but the argument seems convenient, but he's better today, but i have my doubts". He does give an ordered reads list but the wishy-washiness of the rhetoric is still there and feels like scum who wants to call someone scum while giving themself a rhetorical out of sorts. It's sort of an IIoA thing to a degree as well, describing the things that Ceph has done and what he thinks of those things but not exactly why he comes to a particular conclusion based on those.

This game is drastically different from guardians as a setup which is important to keep in mind in this comparison though.

Sue me for having a nuanced take. If someone was obvscum we wouldn't have waited 40 pages for our first wagon (and sorry to disappoint but we're going to have to wait even longer for our first wagon on scum).

As for description my posts are intended partly to share what I'm noticing and also convenient for me to refer back to (I don't have a notes PT). I understand that might seem waffly but when i actually have a case to push I'm more focused.

Also weird is he says that his Shirou read has been tempered a little, but then still lists Shirou as one of two people in his top tier of townreads?

Yep, I still see him as town but understand there is reason to be wary. So my confidence in my read being right has lessened a little.

You waited 30 of those pages to actually post.

[fua]

It was my pet wagon...

mine...

[fua]

Scumteam is still within Redtea/Implosion/Ceph/Imaginality/Tejate.

[fua]

Then I guess I'll be the one to calm my rabid bloodlust for now. Two of the slots I've interacted with the least are here tonight.

UNVOTE:

I'll be mostly unavailable for the next hour or so, but then I'll be back. Also, I'm good AL. Happy to see the game getting some spice finally.

Hm...

[fua]

You can tell who’s posting on my account by looking at the user name to the left of my post and above the avatar.

[fua]

I will say I wasn’t intentionally crumbing cop. So make of that what you will.

[fua]

I know it's annoying when you're expecting someone to town read you easily and work together, and they're sitting over there squinty eyed

me, living this every game

Me @everyone every game regardless of alignment.

[fua]

Am I the only one whose brain shuts off whenever people start to talk about other games that have happened?

[fua]

Like, I want to engage, but then I read posts like 1378 and my eyes glaze over. (No offense.)

[fua]

Like, I want to engage, but then I read posts like 1378 and my eyes glaze over. (No offense.)

If you want to engage me, there are plenty of posts I've made that don't reference old games. Or, pick a topic.

I didn't mean you specifically but just any post that references past games. That was just the most recent example.

[fua]

> I kinda don't like the use of "we" here. It comes off as trying to project "we the town".

@Morph Too lazy to snip that whole post, but this basically puts into words why I’ve been suspicious of Tejate for a while now.

[fua]

Imaginality saying “Yeah, this is understandable” to all of his scumreads voting him also reads as very strange.

[fua]

fua, Implosion and Ydrasse

If you guys are about to switch from Imaginality to any other wagon that may rise up, can we get engaged on why? I don't want this wagon to lose steam now because it sounds like a pain to rebuild it if it gets to 1 ~ 2 votes only.

I’m not.

[fua]

That was why I was trying to figure out how much I should be concerned about Ydrasse's claim.

Where were you concerned with Ydrasse's claim? I see where you were suspecting her and where you were concerned about fua's claim, but I don't see where you were specifically concerned with Ydrasse's claim.

I deliberately stayed vague about the reason in my post #713 ("I'm also suspicious of Ydrasse. Need to go back and get the quotes but I remember being pinged at least a couple of times.") because I didn't want to out myself as N2 doc at that point. In the background I was trying to figure out how much her claim should make me wary of her hence the probability discussion.

That was why I was trying to figure out how much I should be concerned about Ydrasse's claim.

Where were you concerned with Ydrasse's claim? I see where you were suspecting her and where you were concerned about fua's claim, but I don't see where you were specifically concerned with Ydrasse's claim.

I deliberately stayed vague about the reason in my post #713 ("I'm also suspicious of Ydrasse. Need to go back and get the quotes but I remember being pinged at least a couple of times.") because I didn't want to out myself as N2 doc at that point. In the background I was trying to figure out how much her claim should make me wary of her hence the probability discussion.

This is the best post in your ISO. Your claim considering this is kinda more believable except...

Ydrasse's claim came right after I suggested perhaps we should massclaim except we could

lie

about it.

Why do you seem so confident that Ydrasse is telling the truth there?

In fact, even if I hadn't said anything about lie being permissible, why would you assume someone would necessarily be telling the truth when claiming out of the blue like that? It's definitely possible to be a townie doing WIFOM even if I hadn't said that we could lie about it, but it's

especially

likely and possible that it's WIFOM even if she's town due to the fact I said lying to confuse scum was okay.

At the same time this makes your claim a bit more believable, it also kinda reeks of TMI by how much you trust that Ydrasse was telling the truth there, which may be a sign you knew she was town, because as scum it's easier to believe what comes from townies is just the truth.

(I know you're considering "she may be lying and is scum", but the scenario I'm talking about is one where she's lying, except she's town doing it for WIFOM when some posts before she claimed it, I had suggested the idea. It doesn't feel you gave much consideration/thought to the possibilities here. )

Really? I kind of hate this post. Imaginality is LHF for sure, so forcing mafia to kill him at night assuming he’s telling the truth would actually be a net positive for town. Not sure why he was trying to hide it to begin with. Was it because it’s an early role? He would only need to survive two days to use it as opposed to living to D3. I really don’t understand his perspective here.

[fua]

That’s actually a good point, but why be concerned about what night you function on?

[fua]

VOTE: imaginality

yeah, I don't like the bargaining for numberQ's vote and I don't really buy the level of projected confidence in his implosion scumread, I think implosion's later play has felt quite townie and earlier whenever imaginality was casing implosion he sounded a lot more doubtful/uncertain than he is acting now

I'm more sure he's scum than I am

What even? If you're town that applies to everyone.

[fua]

Kind of feels like Imaginality has accepted he's dead in the water and is now pushing to delay his death and give his team an extra kill.

[fua]

VOTE: imaginality

yeah, I don't like the bargaining for numberQ's vote and I don't really buy the level of projected confidence in his implosion scumread, I think implosion's later play has felt quite townie and earlier whenever imaginality was casing implosion he sounded a lot more doubtful/uncertain than he is acting now

I'm more sure he's scum than I am

What even? If you're town that applies to everyone.

Yes of course.

The point is the more it's me on the chopping block the less I need to be sure of my case on someone else to push for them hard. Because the equation in my head is less "should I push this person vs investigating these others" and more "if I don't get momentum going on someone else I'm gonna be limmed".

Or to put it another way, I am only somewhat confident that implosion is more likely scum than GuiltyLion/Cephrir/etc.
But I am greatly confident he's more likely scum than I am.

Idk. This makes sense in my head.

What???

If it's a matter of self preservation then why not just vote for the guy with three right now instead of sticking on a random vanity vote?

[fua]

for what it's worth I don't think imaginality trying to get a wagon on implosion like that is scummy. I would do the same thing regardless of my alignment if I was in his position.

I really do think it was more AI-revealing the fact he didn't react like this from the start

/shrug

Spoiler:

yes this is kinda a prod dodge disguised as content, how did you know?

p-edit: actually fua has a point. If it was only self-preservation he could vote redtea rather than implosion. The unique reason to not do that is if he was that much more confident on implosion flipping scum/redtea being town but...I don't know if I buy he has that much more confidence on implosion huh...

We're at an in between point timewise. If it was like less than four days to deadline then your and fua's point would be right, bur right now I just feel that I want to push for implosion a bit more rather than accept the redtea vs imaginality framing others are trying to funnel this situation into

So wait. Your main concern is pushing someone so that you don’t get limmed because you know you’re townie, but suddenly you can afford to choose who you push because there’s still time until the deadline? Does not compute.

[fua]

> That's part of why redtea looks a bit better to me now, because I think if they're scum as well, scum would be keeping more names in the mix unless they're pretty sure of getting me mislimmed over redtea.

This also feels like a perspective slip.

[fua]

I think doubling down on a bad take is a scum-indicative move, honestly.

[fua]

fua thinking self awareness is scummy then being self aware is big red flag

which fua posts are you referring to where they are being self aware?

VOTE: Shirou

Very self-aware. Almost too self-aware, if I do say so myself.

And yes, that’s AtE. Go ahead and scumread me for it. I love manipulating people’s emotions and coming up with bullshit.

If that’s what you took away from that interaction instead of seeing it as anything but a joke I don’t know what to tell you.

[fua]

Meg calling out fua's self-awareness thing is interesting. I've certainly made dumb jokes as town before that I thought were obvious, and then ended up getting me some heat. But fua is justifying their self-awareness by saying it was just a joke, while Shirou's self-awareness also seemed very much like a joke, so there's some kind of inconsistency/hypocrisy in fua's reasoning here.

For reference, this is Shirou's post that prompted the vote from fua in the first place. Is this any less of a joke that you pointing out your own AtE fua?

I want to not sit on my ass and be useless this whole time.

haha...useless you say...

"useless" as kinda like as if someone...already had 30 posts in a 170 posts game with 13 players...but had barely talked about anything truly game-related...?

I see...hopefully no one is like that in this game yep...

[fua]

I don't even know if I should dignify this with a response beyond that.

[fua]

I mean it's a legitimate question. You voted Shirou because he made a self-aware comment/joke.

No I didn't.

[fua]

I mean it's a legitimate question. You voted Shirou because he made a self-aware comment/joke.

No I didn't.

So 173, the only content being a vote for Shirou and you saying he's too self-aware, is NOT you voting him because he's self-aware?

I explained why my vote was staying on him at that point and you conveniently left it out to support your argument. If you’re going to do an ISO at least have it be useful.

[fua]

Less hypocrisy and more psychological

how do you determine what is scummy? This primarily comes from 2 sources: what you have seen others do as scum and want you do as scum. Then subtracting the intersection with what you have observed peopl/yourself doing as town.

Thus my conclusion is that fua either doesn't realize they are self aware as town (which is kind of contradictory) or fua is self aware only as scum

Your conclusion is bad.

[fua]

I mean it's a legitimate question. You voted Shirou because he made a self-aware comment/joke.

No I didn't.

So 173, the only content being a vote for Shirou and you saying he's too self-aware, is NOT you voting him because he's self-aware?

I explained why my vote was staying on him at that point and you conveniently left it out to support your argument. If you’re going to do an ISO at least have it be useful.

Nowhere did I say or imply I did an ISO, the posts I referenced came from Meg's own quoting. But like... okay? Not sure what this has to do with what I'm saying. Literally all I'm asking is why you used Shirou's self-aware joke as a reason to vote him (even if you later explain it in more detail), and then later used your own self-aware joke as a defense. I completely fail to see how this is in any way "weird". I didn't say it was scummy, I'm not grilling you or anything, it's not this huge thing I'm trying to nail you with. It is literally JUST an observation I thought was interesting and wanted to follow up on to see if anything else interesting would come out of it. Like jesus people, idk what's up with this game and having words/intent put in my mouth

I mean it's a legitimate question. You voted Shirou because he made a self-aware comment/joke.

No I didn't.

So 173, the only content being a vote for Shirou and you saying he's too self-aware, is NOT you voting him because he's self-aware?

You were trying to put words in my mouth. I assumed you had done an ISO, so I'll take the L on that one.

[fua]

I like your avatar. What is it?

[fua]

Who healed and who did you heal? 2 confirmed townies today is very valuable.