Open 847 - Trust Fall [Game Over]

[Meuh]

Good evening everyone! Excited for this game

I really wanted to vote Meuh but I guess I won't

and why is that? What exactly drove you to want to cast a vote for "Meuh" on day 1 of this wonderful game of MafiaScum? Is it my name? Your unfamiliarity with me? If you're so terrified of anything new, I recommend seeking help. Being terrified of the unknown does nothing but make you miserable and limit your opportunities in life. If you keep going like this, I'm very scared for your future...

So I'd suggest you try new things, learn new words, familiarize yourself with the unknown, the unfamiliar, get joy out of it, thrill out of it, enrich yourself from it. Breaking those boundaries is how you'll improve yourself, how you'll prosper. and we all want prosperity, don't we?

I suggest you abandon your old life, erase your identity, and move to a new country. Obviously the life you're currently living doesn't let you reach your full potential, I'm sure you can achieve it! I have a lot of faith in you, Pavowski. Hoping you'll get past your intense agnostophobia and start living life to your fullest, to a point where seeing "Meuh" in a playerlist doesn't bring you fear; but satisfaction of knowing how much you've evolved and learned after living beyond your past limitations.

i think limbait is a much smaller factor this game, instead of removing "weaker" players this setup seems to have an inherent tendency to remove "stronger" players who are able to determine others' alignments. consider the 4v2 yeetlo or the 3v1 yeetlo situations that will always happen here

I mean this true, but I don't think it makes Norwee's point in 60 much worse? If Enchant, like Norwee thinks, imagines themselves being limbait; it's not unrealistic that they'd be less active here? Feels like Enchant posting less would be more of a bias/not fully conscious thing rather than them actively going

"oh, I'm scum, let's just post less"

, so I doubt scum!Enchant would end up posting a lot as scum here if they have a tendency not to generally.
No clue if that's true at all, idk Enchant at all

Speaking of which this playerlist is pretty fresh to me, I've only played with Norwee and Greeting iirc, so hi all the new people!

[Meuh]

"oh, I'm scum, let's just post less"

hello!

do you not think that scum might think 'oh i'm scum, i need to post more' here though?

and what do you think about norwegianboyee seemingly not considering this?

The point I was making was more looking at those 2 points I was responding to in a vacuum, but yeah:

I think scum would generally want to post more, since while in a regular game it'd be fine for them to just stay a general townlean for the whole game, here they more actively benefit from being townread strongly, since it helps with leaving the game.

Also, we should also particularly watch out for pocketing/duos, right? Cause scum could be scumread by everyone but strongly trusted by one person, and poof that player is a one-way ticket to victory.
Now that I've thought about it I'm gonna be 10x more paranoid about my townreads

PEdit: oops chavela just made this exact point

[Meuh]

Spoiler:

Good evening everyone! Excited for this game

I really wanted to vote Meuh but I guess I won't

and why is that? What exactly drove you to want to cast a vote for "Meuh" on day 1 of this wonderful game of MafiaScum? Is it my name? Your unfamiliarity with me? If you're so terrified of anything new, I recommend seeking help. Being terrified of the unknown does nothing but make you miserable and limit your opportunities in life. If you keep going like this, I'm very scared for your future...

So I'd suggest you try new things, learn new words, familiarize yourself with the unknown, the unfamiliar, get joy out of it, thrill out of it, enrich yourself from it. Breaking those boundaries is how you'll improve yourself, how you'll prosper. and we all want prosperity, don't we?

I suggest you abandon your old life, erase your identity, and move to a new country. Obviously the life you're currently living doesn't let you reach your full potential, I'm sure you can achieve it! I have a lot of faith in you, Pavowski. Hoping you'll get past your intense agnostophobia and start living life to your fullest, to a point where seeing "Meuh" in a playerlist doesn't bring you fear; but satisfaction of knowing how much you've evolved and learned after living beyond your past limitations.

i think limbait is a much smaller factor this game, instead of removing "weaker" players this setup seems to have an inherent tendency to remove "stronger" players who are able to determine others' alignments. consider the 4v2 yeetlo or the 3v1 yeetlo situations that will always happen here

I mean this true, but I don't think it makes Norwee's point in 60 much worse? If Enchant, like Norwee thinks, imagines themselves being limbait; it's not unrealistic that they'd be less active here? Feels like Enchant posting less would be more of a bias/not fully conscious thing rather than them actively going

"oh, I'm scum, let's just post less"

, so I doubt scum!Enchant would end up posting a lot as scum here if they have a tendency not to generally.
No clue if that's true at all, idk Enchant at all

Speaking of which this playerlist is pretty fresh to me, I've only played with Norwee and Greeting iirc, so hi all the new people!

Holy guacamole what an entrance

I just wanted to RVS somebody but you have me over here rethinking my entire life and I was not prepared for that on a Tuesday

I think that's deserved for wanting to lim me

[Meuh]

I think that's deserved for wanting to lim me

...

voting you would be offering a trust fall

there are not eliminations in this game

...

I'm aware.

He explicitly said he wanted to RVS me, though, so I assumed that meant the same kind of RVS as a regular game, and he forgot about the gameplay mechanic

I'm being hyperbolic, if it's unclear

[Meuh]

like scum just need to get townread strongly by one person and get out yeah, to avoid having to really grind the game out,

This is not a terrible strat for either alignment imo

the difficulty with it as town is that... mafia are somewhat likely to be the one strongly townreading you yeah? so encouraging town to just find the obvtowns causes an unideal situation i think

so it's generally better for the towns to try to sort everyone to not give mafia ability to just pair with widely townread player that is misreading them,

but i've also put a lot of thought into this game from the mafia perspective as i have played multiple previous versions as mafia so maybe that is messing up my view of the game,

Yeah I think in this setup, it's a much worse idea to kind of let one player get townread by everyone without too much scrutiny, seems like an easy way to end up with a scum leaving ASAP
Casting a wide net of reads generally looks like a better approach than to focus down on a small amount of players here, but ig that's basically always true

[Meuh]

Meuh is rly good at scum i think. I think i vaguely remember last game we were in they sounded very townie but was mafia.

You're misremembering, I was widely townread, but was also town, marci was the one who managed to sneak under our radar

My only scum game ended up with me being limmed day 1 after slipping

[Meuh]

Meuh is rly good at scum i think. I think i vaguely remember last game we were in they sounded very townie but was mafia.

You're misremembering, I was widely townread, but was also town, marci was the one who managed to sneak under our radar

My only scum game ended up with me being limmed day 1 after slipping

Hmm ok so maybe i was just very paranoid of you, and thus wrongly assumed you just were scum based on memory. Lol.

Oh yeah we were paranoid of each other, iirc we were both leading wagons on each other on day 1, both vts, so I don't fault you for remembering it like that

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=86289

this was the game

[Meuh]

I think that's deserved for wanting to lim me

...

voting you would be offering a trust fall

there are not eliminations in this game

...

I'm aware.

He explicitly said he wanted to RVS me, though, so I assumed that meant the same kind of RVS as a regular game, and he forgot about the gameplay mechanic

I'm being hyperbolic, if it's unclear

To be clear I'm aware of the mechanics, but vote tags are not explicitly discussed in the setup so I wasn't sure if it would count or not and decided to err on the side of caution

My spiritual RVS is on Meuh though, but I will take your opening salvo to heart

Glad you're going on a journey of self-improvement because of it

[Meuh]

51 and 54 are a weird set of posts, I don't see how not having seen the setup in action before would stop you from making estimates on its meta and the strategies to use for it; but the weirdness is more likely to come from a different way of viewing the game than genuine scuminess I suppose

It might if you had waited instead of immediately questioning the question.

...

infinitely less value in that then just engaging enchant on other subjects whenever the opportunity presents itself

like if you fear that enchant is going to have limited activity

then giving enchant the opportunity to burn that limited activity on talking to you about their limited activity is kinda ... !!! right

Yes, i wanted to talk to them.

I feel Enchant would be an easy slot for me to read.

Like can u go 5 seconds without ranting about the seeming lack of logic behind my posts. I'm an completely illogical mad man u kno that right?

and do you think Enchant would have an easy time reading you?

[Meuh]

[*]Trust votes must not be spoilered and should be in an unambiguous format such as VOTE: Player,

Vote: Player

,

I trust Player

,

Trust: Player

,

Offer: Player

,

Accept: Player

, HEAL: Player etc. Abbreviating someone's name is acceptable, so long as I can discern who you were voting for without trouble. If I think it should count as a vote or trust, it will.

[Meuh]

alright so there's ten of us what if nobody ever trusts anybody and we just take turn modding marathon micros in here?

[*]An elapsed day deadline results in a free choice by the Mafia to be resolved 36 hours later. If the Mafia fail to select a valid pairing, the game will be resolved as a town win.[/*]

[Meuh]

can someone actually be scummy in this setup? everyone has the same goal

I mean mafia members also want to get each other out, and because of the rule against pairing together, have to avoid getting in a situation where they'd have to accept each other's deal (although it seems they would be able to make

offers

to each other, just not accept since it'd be revealed it failed)

[Meuh]

something something meuh wavelength +++

why have we made the same post like 3 times now

[Meuh]

Norwee's scummy!

[Meuh]

i promise im not scum please trust me please please trust me

I was about to say that I trusted you and then realized that could be interpreted as an actual trust you have an effective strategy

[Meuh]

HEM/Enchant S/S incoming

[Meuh]

This is what i feel is happening right now:

- Scum PT -
HEM: Shit Enchant, we screwed up with our strategy of you faking trust and me voicing paranoia about it, let's just both spam as much as possible.
Enchant: You got it bub, i'm a master of spamming posts and making a lot of noise in the game.

kinda hard for me to imagine scum!humaneatingmonkey suggesting this line of play as humaneatingmonkey generally does not need to rely on 'tricks' as scum in the way i might

but it's not too hard for me to see it as having happened as an impulsive thing

as neither of their thought processes at the time of really make sense to me

I don’t really get the impression either of them is actually trying to win right now or views what they’re doing as actively beneficial
Imo either there’s no convoluted plan or they’re both scum and decided to instantly go with the questionable “one scum proposes trust to the other” gambit

[Meuh]

In simple words: chavela thinks we can't cope without his wisdom, so it's not worth leaving and winning.

no? more that there are benefits to pairing later rather than sooner if you strongly believe someone to be town,

the leaving and winning is literally only true for scums - towns have to get at least six towns out

whereas as scum i would just leave

like if humaneatingmonkey is town, do you think i as scum would have the same approach here?

One question tho, i'm pretty certain that the later a scum player get's paired the more informative it will be, so if we pair a scum early then we get much less info from the flip and a higher chance at losing later as an result.
So that means it is important for town to get town paired early on, and if a scum get's paired later that is more manageable as the second scum can be caught out or PoE'd from association tells.

Thing is, the more mafia are around, the more they can control the game’s narrative. If we’re on day 3 and both scum are still in, they will ultimately have more control on what town thinks than if one of them leaves early.
Also if we flush out the likely townies early, it makes it even easier for the mafia to control the town’s thoughts, since the lack of trusted townies will make the mafia more believable.

PEdit: posted the same thing as as chavela again oops

[Meuh]

I don’t really get the impression either of them is actually trying to win right now or views what they’re doing as actively beneficial
Imo either there’s no convoluted plan or they’re both scum and decided to instantly go with the questionable “one scum proposes trust to the other” gambit

hm,

i think if they're both scum it was likely the result of enchant offering a trust impulsively rather than a long thought out gambit,

I don’t think it’s long thought out either if that’s the case, but I do think it could’ve still been proposed or mentioned by one of them beforehand

[Meuh]

Norwee's scummy!

Why

I had a little theory thing about you being scum because of the way you fixated on Enchant early, but after seeing the way Enchant plays, I don’t really think it makes sense. iirc you always hate those types of players from what I saw in the last game we played together and you had a similar aversion to N_M

(Oh and btw I’ll be mostly on phone for the next few days, so post formatting might be a bit worse and I might make smaller posts, big posts on mobile are a pain)

[Meuh]

Trust: chavela

Please don't accept this.

Ayo Chav confirmed town now? Nice
I honestly was considering trusting Chav after the first trust was put on her, but I suppose this probably works out better if you guys do want to throw me out of the game today
Bugspray’s probably an important slot to get a read on soon, I think

[Meuh]

I guess Chav could always be deepwolfing to advance mafia’s goals but I doubt it. If that’d be the case I’d assume her partner is more of a lurker

[Meuh]

Could Greeting and Tris come in here and towntell or scumtell plz, thanks.
Oh and idk if i trust Meuh yet, they feel smooth and make nice beautiful thesaurus posts, but are we actually sure they are town indicative and not just pretty?

someone has a crush

It’s my natural way of writing tbh, my brain is filled with useless synonyms, which doesn’t leave much space for being good at mafia sadly

[Meuh]

Sorry for not posting the most, have been away from home the past few days so I haven’t have the time to, will catch up later tonight

[Meuh]

I don't agree with

Meuh

's 288. I feel the exact opposite - we should avoid scums getting out from the game at all as the fact that two players are desperate to win someone's trust and get out from the game will be more visible.

I don't think I can fully trust

Meuh

yet.

I could make a trust offer to

chavela

tbf. This sounds like slot who has an exceptionally low chance of being scum. But would they reciprocate? Given the fact that they have two trust offers already and don't seem to keen on even considering any of them, I doubt it.

..then again, I don't see myself trusting neither

bugspray

nor

humaneatingmonkey

so far.

Okay so these 2 posts feel scummy.

Whether deliberately or not, 663 pretty clearly misses the point of 288, in which I was talking about a specific theoretical from Norwee which assumes scum exiting the game at all. Greeting could've quoted Norwee's 283 and ended up with a point that makes just as much sense, since Norwee, in this post, also assumes the instance in which a scum player exits the game at one point.
The train of logic Greeting supposedly uses to end up thinking I'm scum doesn't really make sense to me.
It would have to be "Meuh suggests we should purposely eliminate a scum member" (which I pretty clearly did not suggest) -> Meuh is scummy
But the opposite line of logic, made in bad faith, does make sense. I want to scumread Meuh (or perhaps anyone) -> hey, this post seems like something I could point to as scummy
Maybe Greeting genuinely didn't get my post but I don't understand how they could end up doing that but not see anything wrong with the theoretical Norwee was proposing in the first place?

Also, the fixation on what proposal to make from Greeting in 664 just feels off. I don't know why town!Greeting would be so interested on where to place his vote. It's hard not to read as if he's looking to get out of here ASAP. They kinda justify it in 666 and 667 but this still doesn't make sense to me. "getting out eventually with someone whom I am very sure (ideally 100%) is town is my priority for town to win the game." is apparently the thought process behind it, so that Greeting is thinking long-term. However, 664 feels oriented on the short term, where to place his trust vote

right now

, or at least

today

.
This approach of narrowing down the options for pairings has me really uneasy, I can't say I've placed much mind on the pairings so far, unless it was brought up by someone else. (But I guess the day end is drawing nearer, maybe there's a need to shift a bit more from individual reading and more to forming an actual pairing?)
Perhaps Greeting is just approaching the game differently than me and has a different mentality, but I just don't really get it if he is.

[Meuh]

I'm not really sure how I'm even supposed to read Enchant. Their entire post history seems to be coated in a layer of irony and it makes it confusing to really get to the intent behind anything. Probably much easier to read with actual experience playing with them before?
221, 462 I kind of like? Hints to actual reads being formed I suppose, 531 and 533 as a sequence also paint Enchant well I guess? That kind of idea to trick scum might not come to mind to mafia!Enchant
The decision to insta-trust still seems wrong to me, even if no one would accept the offer regardless of alignment.

@Enchant

could you elaborate on 662? I'm not sure what point you're making there.

Also

@Norwee

did you ever elaborate on why you think Enchant is town? I'm reading through your ISO but all I see in form of explanation is that they

would

YOLOvote here. Your insight would be nice as someone who's played with them before

[Meuh]

i think she just likes Meuh too

[Meuh]

though meuh's post does make a weird assumption of

the mafia leaving the game in general

and kinda has that time traveler element to it

of almost looking back at actions

as step by step later is better than sooner

because! later could become never but sooner cannot if it has already happened

I make that assumption because the post I'm responding to does, it specifically discusses whether later/sooner is the best time for mafia to leave
There's no reason for me not to assume a mafia's leaving when the two options that had just been brought up both involve a mafia member leaving the game

[Meuh]

If that is referring to me then i can say with certainty that i as scum would not pick fights with someone i’d read as an highly capable town and suggest they should not be trusted.
I’d much prefer when playing this as scum to sort them as an slot that needs to be pocketed or to avoid confronting. Certainly not "make Chavela think they are not to be trusted"
My previous game with them i think i also voiced big concerns on Meuh. Now you could point this as an reason for me to assume that i am wrongly being paranoid about town!Meuh again for no reason. But that is not the point, it’s that i believe Meuh would be capable of emulating their town play at an high level as mafia. Because they strike me as that sort of tempered, highly professional player.

I don't tend to like going too in depth on past gameplay for analysis, but here's my only scum game on site, if you wanna compare notes, here it is: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=86564
Already brought up this game but if your perception of me hinges on the idea that I'm particularly great at scum, it feels relevant to mention again.
I think I can fake tone pretty well, but actual analysis and thought process? Less so.
viewtopic.php?p=12763845#p12763845
This post is the one that killed me, my analysis was unnatural and I let it slip that I was PR hunting (to be fair, I was right about the mason pair! )

Ultimately I think I'm probably a decent scum player? But I only have like 72 hours being scum on this site since I got limmed prematurely D1 so I don't know very well how I even play scum

[Meuh]

If i’m wrong there then Meuh is free to make their case of why. But i was always going to voice this paranoia nonetheless.

was not referring to you specifically

(or even generally really though i didn’t want to artificially narrow it in case meuh felt that you were)

just that it felt like most of the push towards meuh has come after i said i was townreading her even though most of her posts came before

though ydrasse gets a pass for this she already had +partner equity with pav from earlier to me and pav is also sharing concerns about meuh

and greeting as well

so mostly i was wondering how meuh was viewing all of this

but trying to ask in a way that didn’t fill in potential answers

For reference, in my mind; initially "they" was referring to Greeting, since I had just made a whole post on him, but then I thought maybe you were just kinda referring to the general shift that happened

[Meuh]

I

do you

think they are trying to lead me to scumreading you?

or at least,

to not townreading you enough

for me to trust you or suggest you be trusted?

I think it's likely, considering the way we've interacted has been pointing towards mutual trust, plus we've just had similar perspectives on the game.
Tbh early on, since to me you were the person making the most reasonable points and was generally leaning town, I kinda just sorted you in that spot in my mind I typically reserve for someone more leaderesque who I generally trust; this sort of player I tend to take their opinions for action more seriously and not question my reads too heavily on, especially until day 2.
That type of sorting doesn't really work in this setup though I guess, since our goal isn't to lim scum.

But yes, I think the combo of: me generally showing trust for you + you saying you townread me + you being an influential player + you getting 2 trusts + me being town = a big threat for scum.
If they don't act, we could end up exerting a lot of control over the game while both trusting each other, and that's a large threat to scum. I could be a townie to take to endgame and get a secure pairing with.
Scum needs to break that up and the best way to do it is to cast doubt on me. Does that mean pressure on me is inherently nefarious? No, but I do think it's pro-scum so I'm particularly worried about it; because of the position I hold in the game caused by our interactions.
If you hadn't said you townread me, I think scum would benefit much less from discrediting me, and so it'd be less suspicious to do.
In the case you're scum, the people pushing me I suppose would then look more like townies from it? But I can't imagine that being true.

[Meuh]

How much experience off-site if i may ask?

I play casual ~20 min games IRL once in a while, which is what got me into online mafia. (I guess that's werewolves and not mafia, but same difference!)

For online it's been since Jan 2020, since then I'd say I've played ~25 games off-site? All on Discord and in shorter and varying formats (day/night usually 24/24, 12/12 or 48/24 hours).

[Meuh]

also fwiw

pav + meuh's early interactions are weird

meaningless ones with a bit of playful teehee bite but after that

poof

Pav just hasn't said anything that stuck out to me as warranting a reply. Early on he was mostly making joke posts and general statements about the game + its mechanics which is fine on say page 4, but not really by now
468 and 475 are the most Pav actually expresses reads and I do wish he'd post more
I don't really think it's a good idea to pair him up for the time being at least

[Meuh]

damn it's really hard to actuall yget good reads on people this game because town and scum have the same goal

can someone actually be scummy in this setup? everyone has the same goal

fuck i thought we didnt have deadlines nvm

These posts from Bugspray I like tbh, although I do think it's pretty clear town and scum have different goals here, 97 and 112 do both come off as genuine concerns a townie could have upon paying closer attention to the setup, and not necessarily something I'd think to see from scum?
138 I also see as genuine frustration, especially since the deadline mechanic pretty explicitly benefits scum here
I guess it's fakable content but overall this sequence of posts I all see coming more from townies than from scum

[Meuh]

the brainworms whispered to me that hem is trying to remove towncred from shiki and just wants to yeet scum!self out of here asap

pedit mind meld

This also just feels like a townie's natural thought process here

[Meuh]

Bugspray's town

[Meuh]

also fwiw

pav + meuh's early interactions are weird

meaningless ones with a bit of playful teehee bite but after that

poof

Pav just hasn't said anything that stuck out to me as warranting a reply. Early on he was mostly making joke posts and general statements about the game + its mechanics which is fine on say page 4, but not really by now
468 and 475 are the most Pav actually expresses reads and

I do wish he'd post more

I don't really think it's a good idea to pair him up for the time being at least

*meant to say post more reads/positions on the game, not post more generally; his activity is fine

[Meuh]

the way it feels like everyone is more or less synching up with like

who is scummy

feels good

the less my brain has to work the better

Do you think everyone's views lining up is good in this game? Or is it good specifically in this case since you're a part of this consensus? Or is it good legitimately just because your brain has to work less? What exactly is the sentiment behind this? I'm curious

[Meuh]

and if there’s reason for townreading humaneatingmonkey beyond ‘hasn’t accepted trust offer’ i guess i am interested in that as well

I think the way he is intransigent towards you felt kind of townie to me

Here's a great post from the game Chav linked

I remind you that standoffish is not the opposite of mafia indicative.

[Meuh]

the way it feels like everyone is more or less synching up with like

who is scummy

feels good

the less my brain has to work the better

Do you think everyone's views lining up is good in this game? Or is it good specifically in this case since you're a part of this consensus? Or is it good legitimately just because your brain has to work less? What exactly is the sentiment behind this? I'm curious

it's good because it means that it's a bit more likely to be right from experience because everyone's nodding in the same direction and it's good because i don't have to worry about the mental load of going against the grain and it's good because that means i'm riding the wave

Cool!

[Meuh]

HEM/Enchant sounds fine to me

[Meuh]

Are this have refering to "i want to stay and help making pairs"?

do you think i'm basic? or are you not interested in talking about reads?
or both, both is fine. i'm a bit basic so this isn't an edged question.

Not really. This is harsh land.
Only you can help self.

Honestly I laughed for like a minute straight after reading this post, Enchant is a master of comedy

[Meuh]

Is the point that Bugs shouldn’t be concerned about being partnered (if they’re town) and so by being concerned, they’re scummy? I don’t think I get it either

[Meuh]

Bugs shouldn’t be concerned about being partnered (if they’re town) and so by being concerned, they’re scummy?

yes exactly

i think it's a perspective slip where bugs didn't realize they were supposed to be town. bugs was highlighting the chance that enchant would hit mafia by trusting them. there was no chance to hit mafia if they were town.

I just don’t really see why Bug’s posts couldn’t just be them trying to prove Enchant’s logic to be faulty, in case Enchant wanted to double yolotrust as an approach to the game? If Bug has expressed this perspective without it being a response to Enchant’s gameplay I think it’d be pretty scummy but when the point of it is to prove Enchant’s plan is bad, I don’t think it’s unrealistic for them to present a world in which they aren’t town?

PEdit: Yeah Bug just made this point

[Meuh]

it never felt like chav trusted you very much

how are you trying this hard to be hurtful

This psychological warfare is too much to handle

[Meuh]

i have read only 2 pages

you should try again before i am done rereading everything

mm i agree with one of those !

after reading 4 pages I am almost certain norwegian+pavowski is the solve

Yeah uh why did Kuriyama make a read on page 4 and just stuck with it? Maybe it’s a style of play but I can definitely see Chav’s point here

[Meuh]

even meuh understands that her lurkiness is scummy. does not give a fuck. still lurks.

lurkpilled.

[Meuh]

i'm also secretly starting to townread meuh. but i'm not happy about it.

pedit: asdfghjkl;'

Take the lurkpill, duckling…

[Meuh]

Ench please be trolling

[Meuh]

AYYYYYY LESGOOOOOO

[Meuh]

remember
bugspray and chavela in your final five/final four
believe it

I'm a bit confused why HEM mentions final 5, that's impossible isn't it? Unless there's like a modkill or something out of the game itself

[Meuh]

Yeah this flip probably just makes The Worst scum

[Meuh]

Why the worst is an evil scummy evil scum scummy scum scum mafia duck

Spoiler:

i'd be fine with ench/hem. i think enchant is honestly too abstract to leave clear associatives, so that world probably defaults to us yelling at each other until the most charismatic players exit two by two.

and it’s not like enchant always plays that way - my experience of town!enchant was much more downhill then that, but idk if the difference can be explained by the setup, potentially can

probably partly. idk if it helps but i think enchant is kinda towny partly because they're playing so loose. it's pretty hard to tell what they're thinking but they're making like literally no strides to be any combination of trustworthy, earnest, charismatic, etc.
i don't really feel like enchant is the type of player to take a setup like this (one pocketed towny can be insta-win) and just nosedive into an anti-charisma playstyle?

enchant is also somewhat chaotic i guess.

this might be a really dumb reason but i kind of townread enchant for being not funny

this one ya

Oh how cool! the worst really likes the idea of Enchant+HEM leaving today

Spoiler:

i'm kind of tempted to trust kuriyama

soulread, i don't think they're playing a scumgame.

i'd also be really sad if they accepted regardless of their alignment so i have decided to not

...and this is where they go off the rails.
So this seems like a half serious/half joke idea, the worst just happened to think of trusting Kuriyama! Very normal stuff.
Thing is, I think these posts have 2 purposes:
1. Pocket Kuriyama (who I don't get the impression is scum) by making such a suggestion in the first place
2. just generally nudge us towards going for an option other than Enchant/HEM.

They're challenging the status quo.

Spoiler:

if we need to cut the hem/enchant convo in half i'll trust enchant. i just trust myself lategame more than i trust myself earlygame. but if i'm in a sticky slot then etc.

Oh and right after the idea of trusting Kuriyama, it's now the more serious suggestion of perhaps trusting Enchant to "cut the hem/enchant convo in half", which feels kinda odd since yknow, there's nothing stopping us from diverting from the convo? and it's unnecessarily risky? Why the need to say this?

Spoiler:

kuri/hem/chavela, would you consider this game significantly easier to solve with my flip or no? i don't really have a sense for it yet.

pedit: knew i could trust u kuri <3

Guys... I totally don't want to leave or to change the outcome of this day but, how would you feel about me leaving?
I think this post was made in bad faith. Also HEM's point about charm is significant when looking at this post.

Spoiler:

hold on so why do that trust, the worst? what's the rush? don't you want me and enchant to finally leave the game?

i would do it because i do not think that enchant would accept it!

increases enchant's town equity a lot, which makes this convo more interesting

increases enchant's town equity a lot, which makes this convo more interesting

and this seems worth the potential risk?

ya

if you don't think it's worth the risk: what are you doing to avoid an enchant flip?

i don't think either of them are scum. that's the point.

if you don't think it's worth the risk: what are you doing to avoid an enchant flip?

? enchant flips at status quo? and i have said multiple times i might trust before i am going to be absent again if it seems correct to me

so you offering enchant just adds variables

yes it does. i feel like you're seeing a problem in this but i genuinely don't see what you're seeing. variables which conform with gamestate & reads are rad.

it would mean i can disrupt a conversation which is getting stale. i'm actually pleased the convo changed from enchant's alignment because i don't think that convo is productive.

the worst is on board with the idea of changing the gamestate and risking changing the outcome of the day... to slightly spice up conversation in a game that's not really lacking talking points, with a day about to end and a generally short format. I think this is just the worst's attempt to nudge us away from the option we had chosen up to that point, by suggesting new trusts be made. All while not being too blatant.

Spoiler:

if there are uncertainties about enchant's alignment, the answer is simple. someone who doesn't townread enchant needs to disrupt status quo because they think scum are about to flip.

pondering endlessly about enchant's alignment without doing anything to advance reads or check other players' alignments is a waste of posts. mafia games get too fluffed up with that kinda stuff. let's be productive.

weigh in on conversations being had about other players alignments then? or start those conversations?

i think enchant is town and i think town are leading this game! i'm quite pleased with status quo. are you not?

Oh boy... if the worst really is scum as I suspect, this is hilarious projection
I think the bit in italics is the most damning. the worst apparently is fine with Enchant/HEM leaving, the

status quo

. However, they

REALLY

want to make sure that if

ANYONE

wants to challenge that status quo, that they do it. It comes off as reasonable and just wanting to make sure all perspectives get considered before EoD, but it's pushing others towards doing their dirty work for them. To dismantle the established town core and stop the trust likely to be happening.
they claim to be pleased with the status quo... while also being the person challenging it the most. Their actions just do not align with what they claim their intent to be.

Spoiler:

my shoulder devil was like "heyyy duck what if we trusted kuriyama....." but then i decided not to. there's not much more to it than that sorry, just a whim.

Okay... so it was just a whim despite them taking the idea pretty seriously in 979

Spoiler:

it's quite hard to guess. scum are comfortable with the status quo, or scum feel unable to influence the status quo, or bugspray is scum. fwiw i do think the current core is quite hard to interfere with.

Yeah I think the worst's perspective here is from scum, unsatisfied with a town core that doesn't serve his mafia team, but who feels powerless against it. This also makes sense considering I'm under the impression the worst's partner was not active near EoD, so those feelings would stick out

Spoiler:

i 4got about greeting aahhh

Did you?

So yeah I think the scum team is duck with one of Greeting/Pav/Bugspray, maybe Ydra ig

[Meuh]

i struggled to word that but like

"who is the towniest out of the names you just said and why"

Bugspray probably! I haven't analyzed your content to the same extent I have with the other 3 I mentioned, so I'm not totally sure about you tbh.
I'd say from most towny to least towny between you 4 at the moment it'd be:
Bugspray (806, 814, 823)
Ydra
Pav (804, 826)
Greeting (683)

I'm probably gonna try to get a better read on you 4 ASAP to get a stronger general read on the game, although I should probably avoid just completely assuming the worst is mafia, cause then if they aren't my whole perception of the game is wrong

[Meuh]

mmm ok but did you know norwegianboy has a history of ragetilting and replacing out when pushed as town?

No, that's not really something I'm aware of
Is it purely a town habit or does he do it as scum too?

[Meuh]

meuh ur looking at a lot of things which look superficially bad but I find it very hard to believe u actually think I'm scum 4 any of them lol

Your posting near EoD yesterday very much reads as having nefarious intentions. It also reads as having a gap between what you said your views on the game and your intentions are and your actual actions

[Meuh]

[Meuh]

it doesnt win the game

edit: i got angy for a minute that i was included but i think it probably does. i just dont like not being able to leave!

Do you think this is a Pav/Greeting scumteam?

[Meuh]

i dont think scum are playing much at all this game

it's like all the townies are mingling and they mingled a lot early and it's too hard now for scum to really break into the core

See this is a large part of what put me off about the worst's EoD1, it reads to me as scum trying to break into that core and I haven't really spotted other attempts to do it

[Meuh]

i dont think scum are playing much at all this game

it's like all the townies are mingling and they mingled a lot early and it's too hard now for scum to really break into the core

See this is a large part of what put me off about the worst's EoD1, it reads to me as scum trying to break into that core and I haven't really spotted other attempts to do it

But with a scumpool of Greeting/Pav/Bugspray mafia may just not have tried it? That'd be disappointing tbh

[Meuh]

advancing past that - why so quick to trust kuri?

Good vibes

[Meuh]

oh boy

[Meuh]

phew

[Meuh]

I think like, holistically the greatest vector to loss atp would be scum in me/meuh, which is a v good vibe imo

let's leave the game together rn, then!

[Meuh]

oh boy

phew

kind of a weird reaction if you think duckie!scum

trust proposals are scary regardless
and idk anymore i've kinda liked duckie's response to my post

[Meuh]

maybe the teams something silly like greeting/pav or what have you

That's definitely not out of the question

[Meuh]

I think the team is bugs/pav, probably.

No Greeting?

[Meuh]

I think the team is bugs/pav, probably.

No Greeting?

Greeting is the most null read I have ever had in the history of null reads, unfortunately. He just... fits in any solve...

Very fair

[Meuh]

im kind of thinking about trusting duck to end the game because if duck/me flip t/t then ydra should be clear since she couldve accepted duck and ydra/shiki would end the game

Can’t say I hate this solve, it’s one of the better ones that doesn’t involve me in a pair (which I doubt will happen anyway)
I don’t think there’s more than 1 scum in the replacement trio/chav, so worst case I carry us to victory at F4 3-1 and we win ggez

[Meuh]

the replacement trio

oh this is hilarious

A trio of besties! <3

[Meuh]

Oh god it really is Pav/Bugspray isn’t it

[Meuh]

% chance on meuh/the worst distancing?

anyone can answer this

though i guess maybe the worst and meuh weighing in wouldn't be all that helpful

0%

[Meuh]

the worst expressing worry about ydrasse and then offering her a trust very shortly thereafter is comparable?

I don't think he expressed worry about Ydra the way Meuh "cased" duckie.

Just skimming iso it seems like more of a poe thing than actual focused suspicion?

hm

@meuh what did you like about the worst’s response to your case though?

something feels amiss here

i guess i should wait for the worst to walk me through thought process regarding ydrasse before saying more on that

Will answer in a few hours

[Meuh]

the worst expressing worry about ydrasse and then offering her a trust very shortly thereafter is comparable?

I don't think he expressed worry about Ydra the way Meuh "cased" duckie.

Just skimming iso it seems like more of a poe thing than actual focused suspicion?

hm

@meuh what did you like about the worst’s response to your case though?

something feels amiss here

i guess i should wait for the worst to walk me through thought process regarding ydrasse before saying more on that

okie dokie

meuh ur looking at a lot of things which look superficially bad but I find it very hard to believe u actually think I'm scum 4 any of them lol

I kinda hate this post ngl tbh imo
Like I guess trying to read me off of the case I made is fair?
But it feels dismissive, questioning my motives behind it before yknow, the actual argument I made, which is what I'd expect people to focus on?

kuri/anyone else do you think meuh's case is scummy or misguided or etc.?

I feel like it coming so fresh off the enchant flip (and being the first piece of like, actual game related content in their iso) should tell me something. its also 5am and I feel quite ill so brain not firing.

"scummy or misguided or etc.?"

is uh well I guess it includes the etc which is very nice of them. However Duckie's approach to responding to my post mostly comprises of throwing shade on me or really pushing the idea of either
1. Meuh is a poor misguided townie
2. Meuh is an evil scum
from town!duckie's perspective yes, this makes sense; but the way they're pushing others towards it makes me a bit uneasy, it's not letting my argument have room to breathe
maybe they really think my argument is just that terrible but it rubs me the wrong way

basically I guess I'm trying to work out if a f3 of [greeting, pavowski, ydrasse] just wins the game and I dont know whether bugspray or meuh is my fourth there. I guess I can see scum identifying me as relatively easy to keep in the poe.

meuh's case is the sort of thing i could take or leave alignment wise

it feels good on a skim like, oh look, things being said, i don't feel absolutely insane trying to read it from a town meuh's perspective but i also feel like it is ...

i don't like inevitabilities but to me it feels inevitable still that meuh ends up in f4 regardless of whatever opinion is

this kind of resonates with the deep sigh in my soul about it. I'm a lil anxious about this core of meuh/pav/greeting which has 1-2 town in it.

perhaps Duckie's perspective has changed because of my big post but this is more casting doubt on my good intentions
which is a turnaround from the beautiful 1060

[Meuh]

% chance on meuh/the worst distancing?

anyone can answer this

though i guess maybe the worst and meuh weighing in wouldn't be all that helpful

0%

dangit i thought i was funny

great minds think alike

[Meuh]

Meuh

, if you had to decide right now, whom would you be willing to offer to trust the most?

Hmmmmmm I'm not quite sure, I haven't really thought about where to trust much
I do trust Chavela the most but I think trusting her would be a waste and not change anything really?
Kuriyama and Ydra probably won't ever accept an offer from me unless the pair is Kuri/Ydra or the worst/Ydra and I don't think putting my vote on either of them will actually prove anything
anything else just sounds too risky to warrant placing a trust really?
i'm not really planning on placing trust today, I don't see any options that would actually benefit town, nor do I plan on leaving today

[Meuh]

okie dokie

but how did any of this lead you to this:

I think like, holistically the greatest vector to loss atp would be scum in me/meuh, which is a v good vibe imo

let's leave the game together rn, then!

oh boy

phew

kind of a weird reaction if you think duckie!scum

trust proposals are scary regardless
and idk anymore i've kinda liked duckie's response to my post

like it feels like you've just given reasons you disliked the worst's response???

oh i misread what you were asking of me, i thought you wanted me to point out things i disliked about the response

[Meuh]

Meuh what's your read on duckie right now? Do you still want to leave with him?

I never really wanted to, the main reason it sounded appealing was that the idea of not having to worry about the game anymore and having duckie's alignment open
i guess in a way a pairing between the 2 of us would basically solve the game? But it's probably not worth the risk, especially since you guys aren't aware of my towniness

as for my read on them? I'm honestly fluctuating a lot, Duckie's posts just read like "hey, a townie could totally make this" kind of, but then if I look at it from a particular angle it all lines up perfectly to duckie scum
perhaps conf bias but duckie's EoD1 behaviour does feel like it has scum intentions

it seems like duckie's gonna be leaving before F4 though so ig i wouldn't hate leaving with them if it's happening without me anyways since i know i'm more likely to be town than anyone else
but thing is i don't see why you guys would have me/duckie leave as a pair before F4 when ydra/kuri/chav are all preferable for most?

but also duckie and i could leave without anyone's approval if we wanted

[Meuh]

Same!

the worst being town would be nice

[Meuh]

Uh okay

[Meuh]

I’m not accepting either, at least for now

[Meuh]

I’m fine with both Kuri/Ydra or me/Ydra!

[Meuh]

I’m fine with both Kuri/Ydra or me/Ydra!

wait

why not kuriyama/you though?

Mispoke, that’s what I meant

[Meuh]

but yeah okay enough with kuriyama accepting ydrasse tout de suite

On y va!
Before Duckie gets here

[Meuh]

where's that humaneatingmonkey post

This one?

Spoiler:

guys im scum

[Meuh]

I think I'm fairly close to being willing to bet the game that Pav is scum. I don't want to bet the game on anything though.

Meuh, please talk to me if you start feeling the temptation.

I'll let you know if the devilish urge to leave with Pav ever occurs
at the moment I'm still not interested in doing so

[Meuh]

Hey guys idk if you know already but fun trick for the website:
If you add "&ppp=(a number)" to the url you can change the number of posts per page
I think it works with any number from 5 to 200
For example viewtopic.php?f=51&t=89054&ppp=200 this is this thread with 200 posts per page
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=89054&ppp=5 and this is with 5 posts per page!
Kind of neat

[Meuh]

I don't mind either way since I don't think it makes a huge difference?

[Meuh]

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[Meuh]

VOTE: meuh LET'S GO

[Meuh]

chav/meuh is probably the ideal pair for today

Yeah that's what we're doing I think!

[Meuh]

I kinda feel this happened partly thanks to my trust offer which scared the hell out of everyone.

it was terrifying

[Meuh]

if i am forced to solve f4 i will be so sad

If Chav isn't town I'll have to rethink the way I perceive everything

[Meuh]

the worst
meuh, chavela*
greeting
pavowski
bugspray


fairly sure the bottom two are just scum
i think chavela is like 0.1% less likely to be town than meuh but it's not meaningful

The groupsolve approach seems to be working.

Maybe it really just is

Pavowski

and

bugspray

? If that's the case, I'm actually feeling bad for them for not getting even a shred of a townread during the whole game. Maybe I missed something, but I don't remember either of them offering or even considering trusting one another as well. Perhaps it would have been wiser to do so since it wouldn't expose either, but it would help them distance themselves from one another as potential partners.

I can't help but notice that there's only one more successful pairing left for us to win. I don't mind staying until endgame in this case.

A perfect win would be really nice!
Yeah if it is the 2 of them it's a bit sad since they just got shut out from town core completely, although it also makes the trusts on me pretty funny

[Meuh]

ugh this is anxiety inducing especially after we got 2 right

chav do you just wanna do it now instead of worrying about it forever? i can't see any other option being better here

[Meuh]

ugh this is anxiety inducing especially after we got 2 right

chav do you just wanna do it now instead of worrying about it forever? i can't see any other option being better here

you can offer if you'd like and not worry about

like it's between that and you accepting the worst to me right now i think

and you offering leaves both on the table

but i also want to look over things again to feel more sure

I'll just do nothing for the moment, still leaves both on the table

[Meuh]

ugh this is anxiety inducing especially after we got 2 right

chav do you just wanna do it now instead of worrying about it forever? i can't see any other option being better here

you can offer if you'd like and not worry about

like it's between that and you accepting the worst to me right now i think

and you offering leaves both on the table

but i also want to look over things again to feel more sure

I'll just do nothing for the moment, still leaves both on the table

true enough

guess i would like to have some semblance of a plan in place just in case

but it's not as though i can reasonably ask you to help with a plan in case of you being mafia lol

oh you mean just like an easy trigger to pull just in case something happens? that's fair, i could offer to you for that purpose if you want
i don't think it matters either way

[Meuh]

ugh this is anxiety inducing especially after we got 2 right

chav do you just wanna do it now instead of worrying about it forever? i can't see any other option being better here

you can offer if you'd like and not worry about

like it's between that and you accepting the worst to me right now i think

and you offering leaves both on the table

but i also want to look over things again to feel more sure

I'll just do nothing for the moment, still leaves both on the table

true enough

guess i would like to have some semblance of a plan in place just in case

but it's not as though i can reasonably ask you to help with a plan in case of you being mafia lol

oh you mean just like an easy trigger to pull just in case something happens? that's fair, i could offer to you for that purpose if you want
i don't think it matters either way

nono sorry

i mean like who seems most likely mafia in case you are mafia,

which is very difficult as that is part of why you are likely to be town

though you even thinking of this is probably plus town

it's just like

if bugspray mafia, then bugspray has been trying to be divined as town by hard townsiding? right
and greeting mafia at this point accepting status quo is unable to win unless you or the worst mafia i guess? but it would probably have to be you because the worst's approach here
and the worst approach means would have to be partnered with you anyway if mafia, right?

oh that's what you meant , i thought you meant that you couldn't ask me for a trigger to pull bc i could be mafia (and thus it'd be useless)
I'm wondering though, if I'm Duckie's only partner option here, wouldn't that make you/Duckie leaving the best option in your eyes?
or i mean you said me and them should leave, is that cause you want to be around tomorrow to solve + it proves we aren't a pair?

I think what you're saying generally makes sense

[Meuh]

or maybe it means i should pair with the worst

hm

yeah that's what i was wondering

but then i wonder if it's best for me to accept duckie's offer because me/duckie might be better than you/duckie since i'm aware of my alignment

feels like overthinking though

[Meuh]

but what if duckie's offer to me is a subtle way to manipulate me into thinking he's town so i trust him

i do still think me/chav is the best way to go but the win % change is minute

[Meuh]

i'm fine leaving today.

pros:
- i'm town!
- you can disprove me/meuh, if you want

cons:
- i trust myself to get f4 right if it's needed;
- i also trust chavela to get f4 right if it's needed


meuh how confident would you feel about finding a partner for chav or i if we flipped scum?

i'm not super confident in it, my gameplay regardless of alignment tends to just be end up with everyone knowing i'm a townie then piggyback off of others' reads
but i mean i'd just need to dodge one scum in that scenario right? i can probably do it
i have 100% rate at finding scum in an F4 (I also have only been in one though )
i do think you 2 are just better at reads than i am

[Meuh]

oh okay!

[Meuh]

trust chavela

VOTE: Chavela

Vote: Chavela

Accept: Chavela

I trust Chavela

HEAL: Chavela

making sure it's unambiguous
it has been done
we better have won

[Meuh]

i town so if u town we won

also town here!

[Meuh]

[Meuh]

YAY!

[Meuh]

gg and thanks for the great game Prism!