Open 853 - PYP X/Y S_S [game over!]

[MathBlade]

Enchant, can you stop defending scum?

I’d appreciate it if you’d stop pushing confTown please

You’re really being sus here and I think this demands an explanation.

[MathBlade]

Or D, I solved the game yesterday

Like c’mon Titus
Enchant is saying I am a clear.

That means whoever did the kill was jailkept/roleblocked or scum no killed.

[MathBlade]

Or D, I solved the game yesterday

Like c’mon Titus
Enchant is saying I am a clear.

That means whoever did the kill was jailkept/roleblocked or scum no killed.

Then Enchant can say that

He did you missed it.

You’re dangerously close to policy elim here.

If you’re town back off and reset

I think you’re scum here.

If you don’t back off and reset it’s exactly the game I had a gunsmith guilty on you.

So fucking reset or you’re probably dying.

[MathBlade]

We likely get a scum from a jailkeeper/roleblock claim here
Because based on Enchant likely being a cop who checked me
Then roleblock/jailkeep is likely on scum here because it’s probable scum tried to shoot in enchant or Ari.

[MathBlade]

Or D, I solved the game yesterday

Like c’mon Titus
Enchant is saying I am a clear.

That means whoever did the kill was jailkept/roleblocked or scum no killed.

Then Enchant can say that

He did you missed it.

You’re dangerously close to policy elim here.

If you’re town back off and reset

I think you’re scum here.

If you don’t back off and reset it’s exactly the game I had a gunsmith guilty on you.

So fucking reset or you’re probably dying.

Him TR you is not a cop result unless he says so explicitly

…..There’s no way town Titus is this dense.

[MathBlade]

We likely get a scum from a jailkeeper/roleblock claim here
Because based on Enchant likely being a cop who checked me
Then roleblock/jailkeep is likely on scum here because it’s probable scum tried to shoot in enchant or Ari.

Enchant would be dead fypov.

Ari doesn't get shot with my post eod.

Again that’s why I think we get a scum from a roleblocker/jailkeeper claim

I think if scum think enchant is cop (which lets be real probably a thing) then scum probably shot enchant.
If scum shot at enchant and everyone lived
Then roleblocker/JK likely blocked the kill
Or scum no killed

[MathBlade]

The alternative is Enchant properly TRs me and took bulletproof.

Which is possible but in that case why not play the game?

[MathBlade]

So mainly I think that’s where we are but would love a second set of eyes here

I have work and some important meetings so will be AFK a lot

But my last reads are Titus/implosion/Dwlee with a very off chance of HQ pocketing me but I am not worried in that case, because you’ll have caught most of the scums imho by then

[MathBlade]

Pretty much HQ’s question

If Enchant is town => Scum likely in RB/JK targets or scum no killed. I don’t believe Titus was shot at ever.
If Enchant is scum => Scum likely in RB/JK targets or scum no killed. I especially don’t think Titus was shot here.

Like let’s go with the moonlogic Titus is right
I would still never shoot her because Enchant or top tier PRs is where I would be at.
Like Titus insisting she is shot is really weird.

[MathBlade]

The only way I intend not to vote Math or Ari is confirmation I am wrong.

Why tf would you vote Ari? She’s the main reason the HEM wagon even happened.

That was me.

They shot me bc I am right.

How do you know that was the reason for the no kill?

Because even Ari was resigned at EoD.

I am that confident in my answer.

So Titus is policy? Because I see no way Ari is scum here at all.

She wasn’t resigned at all.

[MathBlade]

The math wagon is clearly not pure. Why would you want to drag us back to yesterday? Please don't do this to the thread.

I think the simplest answer is Titus is scum
When she went after Gamma and I told her in the neighborhood Gamma was inno, she refused to reset.

Then she fake claimed Doctor while setting up for babysitter.

So I kinda feel like Titus is not wanting to accept I am town feels like that.

[MathBlade]

The math wagon is clearly not pure. Why would you want to drag us back to yesterday? Please don't do this to the thread.

Then who was scum on it?

You

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Mathblade

As long as Enchant doesn't have a literal innocent I am definitely down for this

Don't see why he's obvtown, I don't think it's that rare for scum to bus each other when going down

Don't think it's Titus here

Hmmm maybe I was right with my first post.

[MathBlade]

Kinda feeling HEM Asuaka based on the VCs.

On a scale of 1-10 how silly is that?

1 = awesome
10 = OMG you have two ICs

Hem Asuaka Titus?

[MathBlade]

The only way I intend not to vote Math or Ari is confirmation I am wrong.

Why tf would you vote Ari? She’s the main reason the HEM wagon even happened.

That was me.

They shot me bc I am right.

How do you know that was the reason for the no kill?

Because even Ari was resigned at EoD.

I am that confident in my answer.

The HEM wagon literally started because Ari called HEM’s scummy bluff and that’s what led tp his wagon, so how tf is she ever scum here?

I seriously doubt scum!HEM and scum!Ari coordinated he’d be a d1 bus.

Fmpov, HEM took off bc my theory and Math was a town driven counter because we didn't want daystall and he was scummy AF.

Except then you’re pushing the person who was scumread for freaking out we had a day stall?

Like Titus c’mon sis.

You’re better than this as either alignment

[MathBlade]

At some point there is deffo scum on the hem wagon, but in the later half I think.

Gamma Emerald, Save The Dragons, Harley Quinn, Titus, Dwlee99 - there's a scum in here, probably Titus/dweelee. I think hem was distancing from dweelee and just vote parked. Like, there's one slot in here I have above 'null'

He pushed Dwlee after Math did, that’s how he pocketed him is my working theory.

HEM was a TR before that.
As I said earlier I agree I was pocketed

But that cannot be the reason

[MathBlade]

The only way I intend not to vote Math or Ari is confirmation I am wrong.

Why tf would you vote Ari? She’s the main reason the HEM wagon even happened.

That was me.

They shot me bc I am right.

How do you know that was the reason for the no kill?

Because even Ari was resigned at EoD.

I am that confident in my answer.

The HEM wagon literally started because Ari called HEM’s scummy bluff and that’s what led tp his wagon, so how tf is she ever scum here?

I seriously doubt scum!HEM and scum!Ari coordinated he’d be a d1 bus.

Fmpov, HEM took off bc my theory and Math was a town driven counter because we didn't want daystall and he was scummy AF.

Except then you’re pushing the person who was scumread for freaking out we had a day stall?

Like Titus c’mon sis.

You’re better than this as either alignment

Then there's scum on your wagon. Who is it?

I can't see a pure town wagon on town with HEM.

As I said you.

In the off chance not you I would revise then.

[MathBlade]

i am feel p sure math/titus is t/t

Why?

I feel Titus + Asuaka is likely S&S

They’re both using the same phrasings in their posts

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Mathblade

As long as Enchant doesn't have a literal innocent I am definitely down for this

Don't see why he's obvtown, I don't think it's that rare for scum to bus each other when going down

Don't think it's Titus here

Titus and A say they will only move off me if literally confirmed

A also opened with a vote on you

[MathBlade]

the way titus absolutely buried hem yesterday feels very townie

She didn’t though
She was wagon shopping eod yesterday.

You’re the one who buried HEM

[MathBlade]

like hem wagon was losing steam going from 4->3 before she accused him of shopping for alternates and crushed him

I don’t think this is what happened at all

[MathBlade]

i am feel p sure math/titus is t/t

Why?

I feel Titus + Asuaka is likely S&S

They’re both using the same phrasings in their posts

thats not a reason to think they are ss

It is

Both of them had a planned narrative that I am scum
And won’t move off of me without some kind of confirmation

It reeks of scum plan

[MathBlade]

like hem wagon was losing steam going from 4->3 before she accused him of shopping for alternates and crushed him

I don’t think this is what happened at all

this happened before you replaced into the game

I disagree with this

[MathBlade]

Spoiler: Why I am convinced the answer is HEM, Math, Ari... but we save Ari until the end in case I'm wrong

Question: What options are available for someone who genuinely holds a belief and they are presented with conflicting information?

Answer: They double down on their opinion, they change their mind, or they acknowledge the cognitive dissonance.

Remember this. We'll be coming back to it.


HEM is a pretty confident universal scumread for everyone. So I'm not going to waste my time there.
Then, we get to Math. His meta is unquestionably strange and hard to put the finger on. I was dealing with the fact Math wasn't pushing theories at all, but he didn't seem to have an agenda. Roden acknowledged this too. Harley Quinn thought it made Math scum, but I wanted to sort out the lack of an agenda.

We're at 1929, I began to get suspicious that Ari was defending a scum!Blade here. Why would Math be suddenly able to play the game after voting out his townread and in an environment where he feels like he cannot give townblocks?

I sat on this for a bit (not long LOL) and discussed HEM + Math together with Roden for a moment. We both observed the same behavior from Math, so that likely meant it was significant and worth exploring. If I could get Ari alone, I could get Ari to articulate a reason to townread Math beyond he'll be useful after HEM flips or he'll give a scumread. I wanted to corner Ari to see if she was actually townreading Math. I didn't predict it to be as illuminating as it was.

In 1945, I start to put feelers out on if Ari is ever willing to vote Math because it does no good to catch Math if the people who have the stomach/fortitude to flip Math are all dead. That's most likely me and HQ. Ari said that she persuaded Math of something which is a rare feat. So Ari would be in that class. So it was worth a line.

In 1952, I claim that scum are going to argue that Math is town because they're a counter to HEM.
Ari immediately does that in the next post.

Ari then starts going back to my old Implo/HEM theory.
I didn't even bother reading the rest of the post for detail once I saw Ari claiming Math's flip spewed him town. I was like nuuhuh biatch.

Ari's post sets out two premises
1) HEM is anti-spew (not 100% sure I agree but I see it and I scumread HEM so ok)
and
2) Math hasn't anti-spew because his flip clears so many.

So that makes me think, was the odd behavior from Math anti-spew?

In 1967, Ari says that when Math sees he's going down that he goes straight into anti-spew and gives a link.

In order to check my theory, I go to the game. I find out who Math is (he's under an alt). I then go to the back of his ISO because that's the most relevant part, establishing how Math sounds when he's anti-spewing. Math's refusal to form a townblock or a cohesive readslist sounds like anti-spew to me.

So I test this theory through a series of questions that I can use no matter the answer. The idea is to get Ari to compare an "unknown" speaker to scum and then compare it to Math's game to see if I can get Ari to defend Math's actual play here or whether Ari would think Math is scummy in a vacuum.

This lets me read Ari to see if Ari is genuinely believing her Math defense and if she is to give her an opportunity to defend the root of the issue, Math's "odd for him" play.

When I posted 1975 asking if the speaker was town or scum, that wasn't the point. No matter what answer Ari gave, I would have told her it was scum that posted. It was a softball designed to have a casual conversation and not inform her that I was actually hunting any particular read in particular since I go off on tangents all the time. That "no tangents" thing might have been ruined but non essential.

Twenty minutes later, Ari says the post is "scum anti-spew". Ari and I both know that Ari has to say it's scum anti-spew. Otherwise, her linking the very game the post comes from is pointless.

Now, unpredicatably, Math comes in and claims ownership of the post in 1994. Now, if I was Ari and a player claimed a known scum post as their own, I'd at least be a little concerned. Instead, Ari is replying to a post from earlier stating she'd be "confused" if Math was scum.

Ari then states that Math stops posting when faced with going down and that's how he "anti-spews". Now, how many of you think that Math can actually stop posting when he gets on a roll? He literally cannot. His anti-spew matches more the text of the post from his micro game that putting in effort isn't worthwhile.

you are talking about one post...

i am talking about the entire iso

math when hes antispewing just shuts up and stops posting

That made me think to compare Math's ISO. Math's tonal irregularities match the last post of that microgame. His ISO is full of it and excuses about why he's not the regular math with theories. No one would listen etc. This isn't a micro game where Math can prod dodge and if he did that would be a scumclaim.

So he just picks fights and never solves.

In 2008, Math says he vibes with himself...when he's scum. Like Math could not be waiving a bigger red flag. He then says if it's not this game it's not relevant which is LOL but adorbs.

In 2011, Ari says that she reads Math by volume and

intention

but how can she be reading Math's posts for intention when she "stopped reading" his posts "awhile ago" according to 1998?

After a bit, Math realizes that he should probably 180 on me. He tries to claim my reaching out to him was scummy in 2020 in an abrupt about face. The rationale is laughable.

Ari's response to this conflicting information and sibling fight is to turn back to the implosion read. 2022
Math just tries to copy this theory by adding me with HEM and Implo.

Now remember that question from before...

Question: What options are available for someone who genuinely holds a belief and they are presented with conflicting information?

Answer: They double down on their opinion, they change their mind, or they acknowledge the cognitive dissonance.

Wallflower's wrong post in 2064 is more consistent with what I expect town to do. Wallflower's wrong, but she's defending the read with substance and not deflecting like the repeated attempts to turn to HEM without saying how Math is town. Wallflower says how Math is town. (No Town!Math never does a full reset here, but it's important that Wallflower defended the position and not the accuracy.) Wallflower still has a chance to be scum if I'm wrong about Ari but I fully expect not to be.

also there is like 0% chance scum titus posted this

I will reread that section after work.

And lol that’s a hallmark of scum Titus lmao

Look at gunsmith mini normal that just finished

She pushed Scorpious scum theory that was ridiculous.

And FYI I already said I don’t care how I sound

[MathBlade]

I think mathblade is a walking mislim but I don't have the energy to like fight <.<

That’s my job as bottom of the pile.

Scum naturally have to push at the bottom of the pile. If they push at the top and kill in the top then they run out of PoE and out themselves that way. Scum generally push where they aren’t by nature.

And no I haven’t read anything else besides this and my last post.

I haven’t read where I said I would because I was doing something for RL.

My elim is literally whatever

My job is to hunt scum while acknowledging I am always in the PoE

Titus’s I should be town blocking is pretty much incorrect. Town blocking works amongst the obvTown

Because scum push me I will not be obvTown and will always seem like omgus

[MathBlade]

mathblade couldn't win thread control against me as a conftown I don't think he thinks he would be able to win thread control against me as mafia

I wouldn’t want to win it against you even if I was mafia which I am not.

There are plenty of ways to scum.

I just really think you’re finding scum in the upper quadrant makes sense.

A (not Ari) fits that bill.

Coordinated attack on me. Titus + A day play fits.

[MathBlade]

mathblade couldn't win thread control against me as a conftown I don't think he thinks he would be able to win thread control against me as mafia

so he doesn't try?

i think he just busses.

like it makes no sense to try something that you know will not work 99% of the time

Correct

This is evidenced when I bussed HEM when JV fake guiltied then backed off soon as I was able

[MathBlade]

if math is town there doesnt have to be any scum pushing him

math is suggesting that scum are pushing him tho?

Yes and I think they are pushing me. I can think Ari is town and disagree with her.

[MathBlade]

i think math is FEARLESS and would try

but maybe that's a wrong assessment

but that's what i think

I find it odd that you’re arguing that I would do something you’ve literally just been provided evidence I don’t do yet you say I would do it because?

[MathBlade]

mathblade couldn't win thread control against me as a conftown I don't think he thinks he would be able to win thread control against me as mafia

so he doesn't try?

i think he just busses.

like it makes no sense to try something that you know will not work 99% of the time

Correct

This is evidenced when I bussed HEM when JV fake guiltied then backed off soon as I was able

@STD

[MathBlade]

Same PT linked earlier for HEM by HQ I believe viewtopic.php?f=90&t=89314

[MathBlade]

See posts 314-317 where I freak out about JV’s fake guilty

[MathBlade]

Coordinated attack on me. Titus + A day play fits.

they're attacking you because you're scummy not because they're scum -_-

I am not though.

I am frustrating and annoying but I am not scummy.

They aren’t arguing that I am though.

That’s the crux as to why they are scum.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Mathblade

As long as Enchant doesn't have a literal innocent I am definitely down for this

Don't see why he's obvtown, I don't think it's that rare for scum to bus each other when going down

Don't think it's Titus here

Take a look here

There’s no reasons mentioned for why I am scum

Just that she is voting me and it’s not Titus

[MathBlade]

As for Dwlee, you and Titus have opposing reads on them but I don't really understand why? I feel like that's something you can dig into here and feels really important for understanding the game state.

I like this from Roden I think? It feels like a good faith attempt to help a possible town Math

Pedit: I don't think my play was terrible when I was here but I've been starting to lurk and not really contribute to discussions since I've fallen behind

Their last posts are a possible townread and an I don’t know.

A hasn’t actually stated why they think I am scum

That is hallmark scum dogpile

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Mathblade

As long as Enchant doesn't have a literal innocent I am definitely down for this

Don't see why he's obvtown, I don't think it's that rare for scum to bus each other when going down

Don't think it's Titus here

Take a look here

There’s no reasons mentioned for why I am scum

Just that she is voting me and it’s not Titus

ok but you're looking at one thing she did today

and I'm looking at the totality of her actions from the start of d1 all the way to now.

also she's like pick #2 so it's not like she ever endgames if scum

Correct. I find looking at individual ISOs leads to conf bias a lot of the time
If you think they are town before you’ll just find more than makes you think town and vice versa

I find that scum make one little mistake then when poked on it compound it.

I think I was defending HEM and had an incorrect read but incorrect read != scummy

I think I was right in suggesting we needed wagons to help sort D2

I think that calling me scummy for having unpopular opinions is inaccurate.

[MathBlade]

It’s also why I have a patent distaste for town blocking unless I have something to go off of that makes a person in the block confirmed otherwise you’re setting yourself up for failure

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Mathblade

As long as Enchant doesn't have a literal innocent I am definitely down for this

Don't see why he's obvtown, I don't think it's that rare for scum to bus each other when going down

Don't think it's Titus here

Take a look here

There’s no reasons mentioned for why I am scum

Just that she is voting me and it’s not Titus

As for Dwlee, you and Titus have opposing reads on them but I don't really understand why? I feel like that's something you can dig into here and feels really important for understanding the game state.

I like this from Roden I think? It feels like a good faith attempt to help a possible town Math

Pedit: I don't think my play was terrible when I was here but I've been starting to lurk and not really contribute to discussions since I've fallen behind

Their last posts are a possible townread and an I don’t know.

A hasn’t actually stated why they think I am scum

That is hallmark scum dogpile

Ironically this post pretty much summarises the main reason I sr you - your points feel kinda contrived to the point they seem more like crafted to meet an agenda than real thoughts? I'm not sure how you can read my ISO and not think of one reason why I might be scumreading you here?

No I don’t.

You started with a townread/I don’t know to “I am voting Math and never moving” without explanation.

And even if I had an agenda it’d be what? To get elimmed? No the n3 vig calls me out on it and knows that’s not my play.

You’re calling my posts contrived because I pointed out your mistake. You didn’t move gradually onto me.

[MathBlade]

If you seriously believed the posts where contrived you’d argue what agenda I am actively pushing?

Can’t be survival. If I did that I would just vote implo with Ari based on her asking
Can’t be my own elim as I said above

So what possible agenda do I have?

I think I caught you and Titus trying to make me the predominant wagon vs genuine scumreads

[MathBlade]

I have to get back to work now but I find you very suspicious.

[MathBlade]

First mistake => instantly voting me without reasoning
Second mistake => Coming up with a generic barebones reason for scumreading me without elaborating

VOTE: Ausuka

Do you want to make it three?

[MathBlade]

i feel like i've barely expressed why i'm voting you, why do you feel like i'm not scum piling on you

It’s antitown to answer that question.

Let’s just say you put first things first when at the bottom of things and I think you did here.

[MathBlade]

he doesnt want to explain to you why he's townreading you because he thinks its a super sekrit tell that only he knows so if he told you then other scum could emulate it and then it would be useless

Or some other pewson or something like that. I agree I don’t want to tell scum why I tr you.

[MathBlade]

Reason wow my phone you suck

[MathBlade]

Fundamentally I don't think I could get enough insight into the game to call out every potential agenda scum could have. What I can do is look at posts that don't look like real town thoughts and think, they must be something else. If you think I'd be better off reads wise sheeping someone else who can do that, that's fair I guess but I don't see how anyone is meant to read me if I do that.

that's fair but I feel like what you're scumreading math for is that he doesn't think in a normal way and that's just how he is

I think they’re trying to back pedal and make things work versus a genuine read as they’re mentioning things out of order

They said I am possible town after all that

And are now walking it back to say “Look no no I really scumread you”

It feels very wrong

[MathBlade]

also does it make sense for Enchant to give us a hypo-cop result?

like hypothetically if he is ascetic cop, his investigation result last night is ____

I agree

I will give him cover even though I am not a cop
Everyone should do this.

If I am a cop my check was on StD

[MathBlade]

also does it make sense for Enchant to give us a hypo-cop result?

like hypothetically if he is ascetic cop, his investigation result last night is ____

I agree

I will give him cover even though I am not a cop
Everyone should do this.

If I am a cop my check was on StD

Not me because?

Because it’d be a waste. Imho you’re obvious scum who tried to save HEM yesterday

[MathBlade]

you did read the part that I linked to you where she made HEM wagon go from 3 votes to 6 votes right?

As I said earlier I did not

I had RL meetings from 11-1:30

Then came back here and posted

There’s still stuff from that period I haven’t read

[MathBlade]

Also i think MATH is town.

So don't vote Math. Thanks.

I am not claiming anything.

Just thinking Math is town

I think unless Wallflower checks in and claims to have JK'd/RB'd Math, then Math and Titus are TvT. I say that because she's the only one left who hasn't checked in. It would make today super easy if she did block the kill, but if not it's looking like someone chose Doctor and saved someone. And in that case the Doc can conftown someone if necessary.

No way town math wouldn't check me.

Except for the numerous other times I haven’t.

[MathBlade]

Also i think MATH is town.

So don't vote Math. Thanks.

I am not claiming anything.

Just thinking Math is town

I think unless Wallflower checks in and claims to have JK'd/RB'd Math, then Math and Titus are TvT. I say that because she's the only one left who hasn't checked in. It would make today super easy if she did block the kill, but if not it's looking like someone chose Doctor and saved someone. And in that case the Doc can conftown someone if necessary.

Huh would it make today super easy? I mean there's still no way of knowing if it was doc/JK/something else I guess that would block the kill right?

I already outlined the possibilities I saw earlier mechanically.

Doctor saved someone or there is an RB who is suggesting an elim

One of those two

It would mean scum didn’t likely shoot enchant if Doctor save

I figure start with roleblocker then JK then Doctor in that order of saves

Because that’s most scummy pick to least scummy

[MathBlade]

Roleblocker also would likely be a direct guilty versus JK which is 50/50 and doc which is a hard inno

[MathBlade]

I'm so confused about this claims thing LMAO are we like massclaiming JK/rb and not that

Sorry if I missed a post

I wanted this first but I think if anyone is genuinely a RB or JK I think they should claim
If a doctor exists they should wait if and until necessary btw

[MathBlade]

I think the person I think is doc and if I read them right I think they saved who I think they saved and then So and so is still scum

So I would really hope the doctor isn’t the person who saved the kill.

Because this then goes into where blah blah doesn’t want :/

So I am praying for an RB or JK

[MathBlade]

actually I might be open to flipping Enchant today since he cant hide behind his bullshit tunnel on me anymore and he obviously survived the night

I think that’s still a D3 thing.

I think Enchant is town and scum shot someone else.

Because enchant isn’t being helpful and would be around for policy later.

I think scum left town Enchant alone unless an RB or JK exists and saved the kill that way
And if there is we get a 1v1 and still don’t elim Enchant

[MathBlade]

and im not policying enchant

his iso is like literally not even playing the game

I agree.

But I don’t think he’s scum here without Titus.

I also think if someone else besides Enchant got shot then sorting out who scum shot and where is of the utmost importance.

In other words, if scum is Enchant, scum didn’t kill there.

Furthermore Titus implied Bulletproof in her first post screaming she was shot repeatedly

I don’t see cop going that far and if it did Titus not taking cop would be weird

So *shrug*

[MathBlade]

i mean i believe she believes mathblade wouldn't act like this as scum i think that's a reasonable opinion to have i just disagree with it

Why do you disagree with it?

You asked for an example of why I don’t play like this.
I gave it to you and you haven’t responded to that.

[MathBlade]

from today:

I just can't see scum!mathblade walking into this game and deciding to defend scum!hem because he knows I almost never listen to him on anything esp when his logic is total nonsense.

mathblade couldn't win thread control against me as a conftown I don't think he thinks he would be able to win thread control against me as mafia

and the way HEM turned towards voting mathblade was super unaligned imo

from earlier:

harley

mathblade not making sense

is not scum indicative for him

i have argued for so literally days with town!mathblade.

i mean it's not like she's going "here's X game where mathblade did Y" but that wouldn't convince me personally anyway

?? Why are you asking for things that won’t change your mind?

[MathBlade]

it's hard for me to really assess what's going on

i believe that maybe you did the thing in the past

it doesn't mean you'd act like that all the time

It’s more what are you going off of to scumread me.

You’re arguing I am scum because of my play. Generic and reasonless

You asked about specific play with the exact scum in question I don’t do the same things I have done here

So by evidence of play I am town

So I don’t follow why you scumread me

[MathBlade]

After 1575, I gave Ari concrete data showing the data matched and Ari didn't address it at all. Instead she pushed Implosion. Ari is literally trying to excuse the absence of aggressive Mathblade behavior by saying it fails solely because she's in the game. She's the only one who can persuade Math to abandon a tunnel. She's the only one who can scare town!Math that he doesn't play to his meta. I can't see town!Ari having that level of hubris.

Yes she has that hubris and earned it on another game

[MathBlade]

didn't i literally ask you about this an hour ago

i feel like i've barely expressed why i'm voting you, why do you feel like i'm not scum piling on you

Yes
And I explained why I don’t scumread you for it
Or why I don’t

It doesn’t mean I don’t try to get you to fix your mistakes

[MathBlade]

Don’t want to explain*

[MathBlade]

i don't care about meta and didn't really care, i just wanted to see that you actually had an example

Okay then what did you learn from me having an example?

[MathBlade]

maybe i'm too tunneled on town!mathblade

if anyone wants to make a case for why this is scum mathblade I will read it

Spoiler at EoD1

Like if you’re town that is a bad play

You should be pitching Ari a world in which Ari is town but I am scum

I think you just don’t want a townblock with me in it

[MathBlade]

Sorry everyone, had a busy start to the morning and still need to read up but I did not JK/RB math if that helps?

Good to know. We can assume either Doc protected someone or the JK protected a town read. If RB exists instead of Doc, they're likely scum since they didn't claim a guilty.

Give it another 24 but then yeah I am good with this assumption

There was some chaos about cop claims first.

[MathBlade]

No one who's an RB or JK or Doctor should claim anything. There are too many of those roles that could exist for any results to be unambiguous.

Hypocop green check on Titus.

I wholeheartedly disagree here.

If a roleblock has a guilty then they should absolutely be claiming here.

[MathBlade]

Actually it's jailkeeper and doc/rb so I guess it's possible to get low ambiguity. But still, I don't think there's much need to claim right now.

No one has claimed invests messed up or anything of the sort

So it is extremely likely doc saved the kill.

So then if a RB or JK doesn’t claim we just all hypo doc

If I am protective (I know I claimed VT but play along) I protected Ari

[MathBlade]

Check you with what? Cop?

Right

Ah, well he most likely isn't Cop, or a PR at all tbh since he's at the bottom of the draft. But yeah I agree that he always checks you in that situation.

Why did you think you were shot?

In a bit of arrogance, because my solve is right at least on Mathblade and Ari or my only two other compromise slots contain scum. Most likely my theory is just right and scum know I am a dog with a bone.

Then someone in the hypo protective claims will claim to have saved you
I think you trying to save HeM yesterday means no one protects you

You’re just spamming me scum repeatedly which makes discussion impossible

[MathBlade]

Who would you like to discuss Math? I offered you an inivitation to highlight scum on your wagon if not me. I'm willing to discuss any read in the game.

Asuaka what’s your read on them?

And I disagree on hypo doc but whatever

[MathBlade]

Oh Math, what did your slot pick btw? No one can come along behind you and it's protown to tell us what must be in the game.

Vengeful

Oh right I derped thanks

[MathBlade]

Who would you like to discuss Math? I offered you an inivitation to highlight scum on your wagon if not me. I'm willing to discuss any read in the game.

Asuaka what’s your read on them?

And I disagree on hypo doc but whatever

Town based on 1.04 to 1.05. Scum with HEM don't bail on a counter wagon to scum to try and start another generally.

That’s just not true

They bail if they know theirs isn’t picking up steam

[MathBlade]

Doubly so when that scum is an early voter on your partner.

HQ and Gamma reads

Town and town

HQ scum doesn’t flip to TR me when they’d get an easy free read for a sheep
Gamma town I don’t see any scumminess in their posts

[MathBlade]

I don’t get the first sentence

[MathBlade]

You’re spamming the thread every three seconds

It’s difficult for anyone to form reads

I don’t know how to explain it but gamma I don’t think brazenly contradicts true meta that anyone can verify as scum.

I think they genuinely disagree with that.

And no. My StD read is fuckin elim me

[MathBlade]

I think if you quit posting for 24 hrs you see you’re wrong

But as long as you scream I am scum

I have to defend myself

It’s becoming insanely toxic

Let the thread breathe

[MathBlade]

You really are though

No one has voted me in the past what 6-7 hours?

You’ve given me gooo after hoop which I have answered and no one new has voted me in the longest time

You’re just repeating I am scum with some new boundary to give you something.

Each time I answer a question it’s a new one

You’re not listening to anyone who TRs me and just say there is no good reason.

It’s a lose if I engage with you and a lose if I do.

[MathBlade]

If I am wrong on your wagon Math, the only slot that really makes sense is StD.

Talk about your read there please.

what about implosion?

he literally unvoted HEM and was preparing to vote for mathblade..

You know what sure

VOTE: implosion

I legit do not care anymore

[MathBlade]

Why do you scum read Gamma?

Because I don’t tr him yet

It’s hard to explain a negative

so during D1 you SR me because you found nothing towny about me
now you TR me because you find nothing scummy about me
why shouldn't you be turboyeeted for being caught red-handed in BS reads?

btw if anyone wants to try and explain THIS away, be my guest!

Simple I am town

Both statements are true

But since we got scum yesterday I inverted it.

[MathBlade]

yup
she's probably town for that

Why the defense here?

It’s clear I am the only one scumreading Titus.

I don’t see this as TvT I see it as TvS

[MathBlade]

I feel like Titus embodies that idea more this game

It’s not a competition

Both can be true

I just think Titus is pushing me because she always pushes me as town so she has to as scum

I like cannot get the asking to start a wagon on Wallflower out of my head

[MathBlade]

And yes Ari I will read your suggested section in a few minutes since work ended

[MathBlade]

HEM wouldn’t take neighborizer
It doesn’t work with his playstyle as scum

[MathBlade]

where i'm at now:

tier 1 TRs:

Gamma - HQ - Titus - Mathblade - Roden(newly added cuz mech)

tier 2

Ausuka - StD

tier 3

Bella -

Null

Dwlee - Wallflower

Scumread

Implosion - Enchant

Std is either X or scum. I would put him in Tier 1 for now. Can reevaluate in a few days

[MathBlade]

i did get stomped by StD-Scum recently that's the only reason he's in tier 2

We will see in a few days

I figure he is like an enchant and sort himself out.

If we don’t hard read him by D4 or D5 he can go.

I would rather go where we agree on Dwlee or implosion

I really feel Asuaka but considering Titus has been screaming I am scum every three seconds I don’t think anything I push ever happens

[MathBlade]

I'm townbinning everyone with a number above 100

we are masons as far as I am concerned.

if this turns out to be tragically wrong later it's not my fault

I was looking at earlier drafts from the wiki page to try and win this draft (2 gets picked surprisingly rarely) and I found that people who pick high numbers are scum surprisingly often, like about 50% of the time iirc. In recent games, I think skitter and saskeismyyaoikismesis were the only ones to pick >20 numbers, and both flipped scum. The fact that so many people did it in this game (usually there's only 1 or 2) makes me suspicious

VOTE: Aristeia

Well I am using the chart that Andante posted in the previous PYP game.

It shows that out of 39 scum selections in 13 games - only one time has scum ever picked a number that is above 100 - I do not think the scum team would give up so much picking power to the townside and send more than 1 person to 100+ in number.

As we happen to have 4 players picking numbers above 100, I believe it is likely we have at most 1 scum and possibly none at all and it's a fairly fun way to narrow POE early.

As you noted in a later post, scum might have rarely done this but the same is true for town. I think that this game being so highly unusual makes most sense if it's a result of scum influence, since they're co-ordinating picks. Which is why I'm suspicious of the 'scum wouldn't pick numbers this high' narrative - my best bet is that there's 2 scum among these people, although I wouldn't rule out 3

If true this probably backfired on scum a little, since they were probably betting on town getting more duplicates than we ended up having. If you look at it from the perspective of 'usually there's a lot of duplicates and just not being in a duplicate leaves you fairly high on the list' it makes more sense as a scum strategy

well actually a town did apparently pick 21 recently I missed that one, I think my point still makes sense though

I think this is actually the fewest number collisions that have ever happened in the draft in this setup - out of the 17 other runs of the game I see one that had 5 people colliding and one that had 6, but this takes the cake with only 4, and most of them had like... in the vicinity of 8-9 people who picked the same number as someone else.

This could theoretically be meaningful in some useful way but probably isn't.

Why do you think it isn't meaningful? I know it's difficult to draw concrete conclusions but isn't it at least worth looking at during RVS? It seems like a major anomaly to me

I mean don't get me wrong I see why that seems unlikely, but as you say there's a wifom element to it - 'scum wouldn't be so crazy as to do this, so it's impossible'

The facts are that the draft is highly unusual in a way that was already scum-indicative for high numbers imo, and you've been playing around it in a weird way

What even is the purpose of that, Ari? Would that help you read us? If not, shouldn't you be appealing to those who wouldn't answer or at least try and convince them?

@Ari; he wants you to pursue the line of questioning by appealing to people who refused to answer to do it

While it's not what I'd do in your position it's not an asshole thing to do imo and I don't think it's a scummy line of questioning for HEM to take particularly

Sorry if I'm being unhelpful btw since I know HEM is here and can speak for himself I'm just trying to de-intensify the situation I guess

Part 1 props up the HEM and you fight.

Pushes you as scum for a good long while and votes you

Then when HEM isn’t getting traction wants to “de intensify” the situation

[MathBlade]

W/ hem - I disagree with most of the points outlined I think. While my perspective might be biased since i'm the one HEM is supposed to be copying, I think the scum motive for pushing the 'high numbers are town' narrative is much clearer than the town motive, and while I disagree with the line of questioning he had about Ari's 3 numbers thing, I don't think it's something that can only come from scum here. Like Ari makes a good case for why the point is wrong but I don't think it makes a good HEM scumcase, I can see town looking at Ari dropping her activity having pushed it so hard and then think, 'ok what's up with that, if you can give it up so easily it was probably busywork' if that makes sense

I am a little curious why HEM came into the thread telling me to shut up about numbers and then went on with similar talking points though

If I were to call you scum it wouldn’t be for that
But like, it’s been proven that scum have gambitted on high numbers before
So what make you think a high number is more likely town?

because scum want to pick before town does; order matters very much to them.

If a scum player picks a PR, that's a PR that a town player can't get.

I find the probability of a "collision" to be very low when you get out to the double digits.

Imo if you pick something between 20 - 40 you are very very unlikely to be collided with.

When you pick a number that is higher than 100, you're basically ceding priority in the pick order to every two digit number without really gaining much in terms of "less collision probability" so I find these picks to be more likely to come from town than scum.

I think it's more likely that a town player would pick a very large out there number rather than a scum player because there are more players in the scum PT and one of them is likely to say "well why dont you pick like 25 instead of 212?"

There's also the sense that you're working as a team to come up with picks that fit your strategy rather than a town player just picking whatever number they happen to like.

Ari I'm curious about this post. I mean, I think it's always best for town to be as high up the draft as possible, to deny scum PRs and increase the likelihood of town PRs, hence why I chose 2. You seem to agree with me here, saying the reason you think it's town indicative is because scum would discuss the issue and then be less likely to do it

But you seem like a smart person who's thought about draft mechanics - if you believe that it's suboptimal to pick a high number, why do it, and why then call HEM out for the same thing (believing it to be suboptimal but choosing a high number anyway)? Am I missing something here?

I can see town looking at Ari dropping her activity having pushed it so hard and then think, 'ok what's up with that, if you can give it up so easily it was probably busywork' if that makes sense

I don't think I gave up particularly easily.

I made multiple posts trying to convince everyone to give me three numbers for example:

45 57 58 76 80 115 121


I gave up because it was fairly clear to me that people were not interested in the thought experiment and I have no desire to twist people's arms into doing something they are not interested in doing.

I mean I don't scumread you for this, I just think it's possible for town to look at your most recent posts at the time and have that thought process, if that makes sense

Point two still voting you despite not scumreading you and defending HEM still

[MathBlade]

I'm suspicious about Dwlee's progression on HEM. They say in post 480 they're voting HEM to sheep Ari. It definitely comes across as a weak read, saying they were basically just voting HEM because Ari said so until they were able to put more effort into sorting. This is mostly fair but some of their later posts rub me the wrong way with this in mind - particularly this post,

MathBlade and HEM probably are SvS

Math just ignored my response to his terrible read on me

The preflip associative here doesn't feel natural imo. Their read on HEM doesn't seem to have advanced - at least, they haven't shown any visible effort to sort HEM in thread, and considering HEM has been the largest wagon for most of the game I'd expect them to talk about their read more if it had. So tying Mathblade and HEM together as a 'probable' scumteam feels too confident from Dwlee here, if that makes sense.

Math is scum 100%

Similarly with this, I understand how the Dwlee math read could come from town but like, the 100% thing seems way too far, much worse than the whole 'I really feel Dwlee is scum' thing Math did.

I want to see Asuaka and Dwlee revisit this.

One or the other is probable scum.

[MathBlade]

hi, really sorry about playing so terribly this game lmao, I didn't want to be like this but irl is really kicking my ass and it's hard to like think clearly and sort people, I'm going to try and catch up to the current page and if anyone has questions about my opinions on like a specific thing I'll do my best to look into it and answer

Okay we made it!

I have (sort of) read the game.

Whew.

I feel pretty good about HQ, Gamma, Dwlee, Aristeia being town.
Ausuka and Bellaphant also give me vaguely positive feelings but I'm not, like, solid. Kind of like ice cream, a weird not-quite-solid, not-quite-liquid amount of certainty!

Mmmm ice cream.

But yes!

The dwlee read seems most at odds with where other people might be at, but I think that Post 548 in particular comes from a town mindset, and in a similar way, Post 1184. I think it's a bit bold of scum to be outright "I like this person because they townread me!" in the way that Dwlee has, but it's an approach that feels consistent with how they are playing this game.

I might need to read over some things again, but when it comes to HEM I just feel... underwhelmed. If they flip scum I'd be like "yeah sure, that makes sense". If they flip town I'd be like "yeah sure, that makes sense". I just can't bring myself to feel stongly either way.

I do have a bit of a pet scumread in implosion. Particularly the insistence on being enthusiastic about the HEM wagon after being called out for exploring other options/being non-committal feels like more of a response to that than true progression of the read.

I love the ice cream analogy

That's kind of how I feel about hem too tbh, I'm leaning town a little bit although it's hard to explain, I guess I got bad vibes from the way the wagon built up

I somewhat see where you're coming from with Dwlee but I guess I just disagree scum would never just give a tr to someone for townreading them

More points that have been dropped and not followed up on.

Still townreading HEM and if they still have bad vibes who bussed and why?

The practically naked vote earlier does no favors.

[MathBlade]

As for Dwlee, you and Titus have opposing reads on them but I don't really understand why? I feel like that's something you can dig into here and feels really important for understanding the game state.

I like this from Roden I think? It feels like a good faith attempt to help a possible town Math

Pedit: I don't think my play was terrible when I was here but I've been starting to lurk and not really contribute to discussions since I've fallen behind

Again this post is horrible.

This is the last post where she expresses a read on me (possible town)

Then goes I dunno on me

Then votes me today.

The progression isn’t there

[MathBlade]

Examples: His push on Dwlee has no substance behind it. He sr Gamma for “not having found town!him yet”, eventhough Gamma played identically in Koba’s mini normal where they were both town. He sr Ausuka for being “nice about maths” or something. When is being nice ever a valid scumtell and especially for Ausuka who - when is she not nice? His progression on STD went from STD lockscum to STD locktown in pretty much the blink of an eye. He posted that if ANY not ALL of Dwlee, Titus, Gamma flip scum, he would then put me or Implosive in hid PoE. However, I am now extremely confident all 3 are town.

And yes, his entire progression on HEM is not what I’ve experienced with town!Math ever. He initially called HEM his top townread but voted HEM under pressure from Aristelia. Town!Math would never allow his arm to be twisted like that to vote a genuine top tr like that. Town!Math is bullheaded and obstinate to a fault. He is also one of the most anti-survivalistic players as town and I don’t recall Math ever being willing to policy anyone. Sometimes town!Math actually gets it right like in Koba’s mini normal and other times very wrong as in White Flag but there is always substance to his reads no matter how outlandish it looks to others. ISO both games to contast them with this one. Town!Math overflows with conviction and is also consistent with his reads. Here, he seems to change his reads on a dime without rhyme or reason. Town!Math doesn’t change his reads easily and definitely never under pressure.

Also he switched his srs on both Ausuka and Ari when they either voted the way he wanted or tr him. He gave me shit for initially not voting but had no issue with bella not voting, eventhough I had the exact same reason for having not voted as she had.

He had STD and Roden as top trs but is now takinv that at least partially back with STD. He did something similar with Gamma. He referred to them both as T/T but now he’s suddenly scum because he couldn’t find town!him early enough.

There are just so many reasons why Math is scum here.

This post helped me see things a bit clearer and it makes me feel better about HQ, having never played with Mathblade before a lot of meta stuff went over my head so I appreciate this clears that up a little bit.

I do like some of the points here. Obviously there's the point about niceness which I already brought up - I don't think the line of questioning I had there is going to go anywhere so I'm left with my original feeling of 'it doesn't seem like a real thought.' it's fair to say people can often be aggro during games but I think being nice to someone who wished you good luck in your exam is fairly obviously NAI?

I will make a mental note to check Math's hem progression when I finish catching up, I feel like I've read both that it's a policy lynch of sorts and that he was pushed into it?

Pedit: Don't underestimate anime

This doesn’t seem followed up on at all either.

It just seems like they’re leaving a lot on the floor here.

So imho they are either scum with Titus or buddying her to try to make her scum cases sound plausible

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Ausaka

If implo becomes a major wagon I will hop over

I kinda prefer A though because of the defense of HEM reads textbook scum

[MathBlade]

Math's partner doesn't shoot when Math is literally at the bottom of the draft and has to be a Goon. Unless the team is Oops All Goons lol.

Possible they are. It's also possible that Math was blocked. It's also possible that they felt someone would block Math.

That’s why we asked for anyone who blocked or jailkept to claim

[MathBlade]

Yeah Ausuka says Math is possibly town and then seeing your scummy opening makes sense to vote you.

A is cleared by VCA. Go elsewhere.

I disagree that A is cleared by VCA

[MathBlade]

If you want to work together,

Implosion, StD, Wallflower are the only options that might work for us both.

I am not interested in working with my scumread

I actually townread Wallflower

She’s cleared by lack of pushes

[MathBlade]

Yeah Ausuka says Math is possibly town and then seeing your scummy opening makes sense to vote you.

A is cleared by VCA. Go elsewhere.

I disagree that A is cleared by VCA

Then show your own. Let's have it out.

All of A’s votes are literally in the case on her I just made (I think A’s pronoun is her)

She voted Ari at the start of the game
Then Dwlee later

She is doing literally nothing with her vote

[MathBlade]

Asuaka makes sense for a scum that feels powerless to do anything D1

So she hopes the wagon takes off

[MathBlade]

I thought Roden was on Titus?

Also, math, hq and enchant havent checked in since you posted your proposal.

P-edit people beat me

@dweelee, what do you think about where scum were on the wagons yesterday?

I thought they had based on Ari’s response but yeah considering Enchant didn’t scream someone is scum
And HQ didn’t either

I am pretty confident it’s probably a doctor shot

[MathBlade]

What's scummy about STD?

VCA bad. I don't buy an all town counter on Math if Math is town. StD has the scummiest VCA out of the voters.

Why? A being off wagon and not being able to join it

And you starting a counter wagon

Or implo trying to move

All three of you make sense

[MathBlade]

Yeah Ausuka says Math is possibly town and then seeing your scummy opening makes sense to vote you.

A is cleared by VCA. Go elsewhere.

I disagree that A is cleared by VCA

Then show your own. Let's have it out.

All of A’s votes are literally in the case on her I just made (I think A’s pronoun is her)

She voted Ari at the start of the game
Then Dwlee later

She is doing literally nothing with her vote

She voted early. Ari wagon got to 3.

Then

HEM wagon started for the first time.

Then

Ausuka bails on the chainsawing wagon. That's not S v S behavior as that makes Ari look

less suspicious and viable as a wagon

. That

increases Ari's credibility on her HEM push

.

Ausuka is not scum.

I disagree

The events you have are accurate but there is no way Ari is elimmed D1 so A bailed.

[MathBlade]

The one I would double check is when Ari first voted HEM

But A makes sense for a scum that can’t justify the Ari push

[MathBlade]

I'm not against flipping enchant because in 6/13 of Ari's games scum picked 1, and that isn't factoring in only games where anyone picked 1

VOTE: Dwlee99

This really seems like an artificial post that doesn't really scumhunt - while Enchant is far from obvtown they don't even appear to take into consideration the fact that limming the player top of the draft carries obvious major risks, and the fact that in most of these games many town players picked 1

I also don't like the rest of their play this game - scummy pop ins and a blankvote on HEM right after Ari's case. While it's definitely possible for town to look at the case on HEM and be like 'yeah looks good' combined with the rest of their play the fashionable vote rubs me the wrong way

This is when A voted Dwlee.

If anything and she thought the blank votes on HEM were scum indicative then she’d be trying to figure out why.

Especially today on thread open. It’s just really weird

[MathBlade]

the thing I don't like about Aus scum is:

VCs 1.16->1.20

Dwlee99 [2]: Ausuka, humaneatingmonkey


like scum are usually not comfortable sitting together on a wagon that isn't doing anything - and like HEM clearly gave up so why would she just sit on the same wagon with him looking bad?

Hem's behavior feels like he is trying to use Ausuka rather than partnered with her.

I will have to look back at when HEM voted and see how many were on Dwlee when HEM voted and when he gave up

It could be quite simple as HEM and Ausaka were on a counter wagon and the others bailed

[MathBlade]

If I was distracted by Math stinking up the thread with melodrama, then it's likely Implosion and StD.

…do not engage the Titus troll

Do not engage the Titus troll

[MathBlade]

Without even seeing the other slots, Dwlee's vote stands out to me because it started out as a sheep on Ari because of how impressed they were of Ari's game.

I think HEM asked why I voted him — Last time I saw Aristeia like this she nailed Prism into a coffin. She gets my baa privilege until I have more effort into sorting personally

Be back later

I noticed it because it immediately implies Ari is town. So maybe this is Dwlee's first read? But we really didn't see much of a progression on why they thought Ari is town.

I can forgive that.

what do you think about dwlee

what do you think about HQ coming in to kind of soflty defend dwlee only

FMPOV HQ looks town for this

This is Dwlee's second read. If you squint really hard, you can almost see that it's a pocket.

But maybe that doesn't mean they're not town.

However things really break down when Math comes down hard at Dwlee. Dwlee immediately launches an OMGUS but uncharacteristically doesn't vote Math. (ignoring the urge too, they say.) I can understand if they would OMGUS as town, but what I can't understand is why they wouldn't move their vote towards Math to sort and to pressure when I'd be absent for a long time.

Now that's not town. Town wants to use their vote to pressure. Even as they approach 100% certainty, Dwlee doesn't move their vote.

I really feel Dwlee is scum.

Titus hasn’t given a reason other than “matching” and “trying”

I don’t see that here from them.

That has to be BS because you only think I'm scum rn because of things that aren't there rather than things that are. So you can't be that confident of anything

this is also a BS response from them.

MathBlade and HEM probably are SvS

Math just ignored my response to his terrible read on me

And this read was made without due consideration for what motive would scum!mathblade have for defending scum!me.

If I'm scum and Mathblade is scum, why risk their neck on protecting a buddy that has no way of defending themselves for 3 days when you score easy deepwolf points trying to woo people's confidence in you?

Here's what I'm thinking: They made the SvS read so they can still park their vote on me
And they did it without developing their read on anyone other than slots who they were 1. sheeping, 2. encouraging to townread them 3. omgusing. without regard

VOTE: Dwlee99

My vote can change as I ISO the rest of my wagon (and the rest of the game)

HEM voted here

HEM also has just two votes Ari and Dwlee
Let me build a VC at that point.

[MathBlade]

vote count 1.15-math insert

with 14 votes in play, it takes 8 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-06-14 01:30:00).

yeet

humaneatingmonkey [5]:

Dwlee99, implosion, Roden, Aristeia, MathBlade

MathBlade [3]:

Gamma Emerald, Save The Dragons, Harley Quinn

Aristeia [1]:

Enchant

Dwlee99 [2]:

Ausuka, HEM

implosion [1]:

Wallflower

Not Voting [2]:

Bellaphant, Titus

mod notes

~ humaneatingmonkey v/la wednesday to friday.
~ Gamma Emerald v/la for a week.
~ dual mod iso.
~ this is mod note.

flavour

Hmmm Ari might have a point.

[MathBlade]

Can we just stop Math? You're spending 5 posts to say what can be done in one if you slowed down and organized your thoughts. Spoilers are your friends. You're not even willing to entertain the opinions of anyone else here.

I am meeting you half way by discussing worlds where you aren't scum. Anytime I try to talk to you, I get melodrama, grunts for reads or oppositional reads where you just push random people who have voted for you.

We can vote Implosion today since we both agree he's scum.

Then we can bitch about who we lim tomorrow.

Spoiler: possibilities

It will be in you, StD, or Wallflower.

I post on my phone. Wall posts are impossible

How I post is organizing my thoughts.

Here you’re being the freaking post police versus addressing the content

I am giving you what you want and discussing the game and it’s now a new thing because I did it in 5 posts you’re pushing me.

I kinda don’t want implosion anymore

[MathBlade]

I also literally just said Hmmm Ari might have a point which implies I am considering what she is saying

Like wtf?

[MathBlade]

Oh wow. I extend a frustrated olive branch and you don't want it solely because I do. Can you just knock it off already?

Pedit: Your consideration of Implosion got ninjaed.

Your “olive branch” never was really extended

Instead of discussing my points you pick on useless bullshit and another invisible requirement

You had no interest of working with me or considering my content

I still think you’re scum and shut up on pushing you.

I don’t think this is town you

You were against implosion earlier and now all of a sudden for him

It stinks

[MathBlade]

You supposedly scumread both Ari and me yet you’ll do a wagon we both want?

No that doesn’t make sense.

[MathBlade]

Oh wow. I extend a frustrated olive branch and you don't want it solely because I do. Can you just knock it off already?

Pedit: Your consideration of Implosion got ninjaed.

Your “olive branch” never was really extended

Instead of discussing my points you pick on useless bullshit and another invisible requirement

You had no interest of working with me or considering my content

I still think you’re scum and shut up on pushing you.

I don’t think this is town you

You were against implosion earlier and now all of a sudden for him

It stinks

I've had HEM and Implosion as partners almost immediately on subbing in. The only reason I ever backed off of Implosion was because of you. If you are not scum, Implosion and StD likely are.

We have discussed your content. Your quotes are discussion of Ausuka votes. Ari and I both explained to you that Ausuka isn't scum.

Ari made one point I am considering

You’ve explained fuck all with a contradictory statement that didn’t address anything I wrote

[MathBlade]

You supposedly scumread both Ari and me yet you’ll do a wagon we both want?

No that doesn’t make sense.

I'm about theories. I have two competing theories.

1) You and Ari
2) Implo and StD

Either, you can vote my townreads and I eliminate you or we can agree. If you flip town, then I'll be able to get a scum. So frankly, I don't give a damn unless you have real good reasons.

Or we eliminate you. I am okay with that

You won’t let me play and I am conf at this point so you are stopping me from playing the game

So if you’re not scum you might as well be

[MathBlade]

How is math conf?

Counter wagon to HEM

Like I am VT bottom of the list

Titus’s guilty she tried to do at the start backfired

So not mechanical conf but by play conf

[MathBlade]

You supposedly scumread both Ari and me yet you’ll do a wagon we both want?

No that doesn’t make sense.

I'm about theories. I have two competing theories.

1) You and Ari
2) Implo and StD

Either, you can vote my townreads and I eliminate you or we can agree. If you flip town, then I'll be able to get a scum. So frankly, I don't give a damn unless you have real good reasons.

Or we eliminate you. I am okay with that

You won’t let me play and I am conf at this point so you are stopping me from playing the game

So if you’re not scum you might as well be

You can play. You have almost 200 more posts than the nearest player.

You aren't conftown. FFS.

Even if you are town, your reads are so easy to manipulate that everyone knows how to do it.

The reason I have that many posts is 3/4ths of them are responses to your bullshit like this one

I play conversationally with people

I literally cannot do that in this game with you posting something new I have to do every three seconds

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Implosion

If this gets to L minus 2, I'm "hammering".

Sorry HQ but we are not getting demotivated because Math can't spam what he wants.

For fucks sake I was having a conversation with Ari before you interrupted it

[MathBlade]

maybe it would be good if mathblade / titus take a short break so other people can post a bit <3 you both

I’d love to and suggested a 24 hour one

But if Titus spams I am scum I will respond I have to

[MathBlade]

this feels like really heated and kind of spammy between you two.

I think we're winning and scum are in a very uncomfortable position so keeping the thread clear for a bit can help us find the last town pieces we need to lock up this game.

I feel that Titus is scum and this is a big distraction

If implosion flips town I want Titus

[MathBlade]

ok sure but did you actually read the section I asked you to read where Titus really put the heat on HEM early and he responded in a way that read very unaligned with her?

It's kind of important to my read on her.

Nope

Never got time because anytime I tried Titus posted BS that needed correction

And to be frank I am at the point I don’t care unless she actually shuts up to give me time

[MathBlade]

i think he's said he'll back off if you back off let's just relax there's other people playing too ^_^

Correct

I want to celebrate a personal goal tomorrow and not think about mafia

[MathBlade]

I think it's safe for JK to claim a potential guilty since they can be protected by a Doc if they do exist. JK likely doesn't claim though if they targeted a town read slot. And in the case of us having a RB then they essentially have a hard guilty unless a potential JK also targeted a scummy slot.

Ok tbh I was thinking of doing this anyway since the draft system makes me transparently a PR so

Claim town Jailkeeper, I targeted Mathblade last night

I will have more to say later

Still did nothing
Still VT

I know I am breaking the 24 hour rule but I still think this is important

I understand if you elim me here but I am not scum here.

[MathBlade]

I still think Ausaka is scum here

[MathBlade]

ok maybe i'm wrong about mathblade but I still kinda want this day to play out normally >_>

Me too

I still want a chance Wednesday (or if I have to interrupt my celebration tomorrow after work) to leave cases

I am absolutely not scum here

[MathBlade]

What’s really odd is Enchant crumbed reads here that they cop checked me

That’s impossible if I was jailkept

Enchant would get no result

[MathBlade]

So there absolutely has to be a scum in Enchant and Asuaka

[MathBlade]

jailkeeper doesn't prevent that does it?

i thought only alien did that

Brainfart you’re right

But then I am conf Town from Enchant’s check as no godfather

[MathBlade]

But yeah

Enchant checked me town

We just wait for him to get back

Then Enchant can just say so

[MathBlade]

I am not claiming anything.

I mean in my defense this seemed a lot like deconfirming the inno

I think you just wanted me dead

But you and Titus will likely get your wish of Enchant doesn’t confirm me like I think he should

I am a VT so it’s no big loss but seriously this is messed up

[MathBlade]

No I still think you’re scum here

I feel like the answer is on the tip of my tongue and I can’t explain it

[MathBlade]

Coordinated attack on me. Titus + A day play fits.

they're attacking you because you're scummy not because they're scum -_-

I am not though.

I am frustrating and annoying but I am not scummy.

They aren’t arguing that I am though.

That’s the crux as to why they are scum.

You were uberscummy on d1, which is why I was so convinced you were scum. When you have time, you might want to reread my case on you, so you can hopefully avoid doing that in the future.

Like you and Ari say that

But I don’t think I was

I have rethought about my play and the only remotely possible scummy thing is going against popular opinion.

But that isn’t scummy

Like I don’t get what is scummy?

[MathBlade]

So I am scummy for not agreeing with popular opinion?

Wow okay

I am taking in feedback I just disagree

I am thinking Asuaka jailkept me as a Titus gambit.

I still think it is those two.

[MathBlade]

The thing I take from that is suck up to whoever is the most popular

Which isn’t helpful because then I can’t have an opinion

So seriously what is scummy?

[MathBlade]

I know I am going down today

I know I flip VT

But if no one claims Doctor by elo mark my words

This is a designed gambit here because I will flip VT

So either I was shot by scum (unlikely) or scum no killed if no doctor claim

[MathBlade]

Barring Enchant confirming me as town which I think he should do but quite frankly it might not be worth it at this point

But the claim should be clarified

[MathBlade]

Almost does a lot of heavy lifting there since I am VT

[MathBlade]

I mean it still could've been a scum pick, but I can validate it mechanically

If you’re VT then if you picked on that row then either Enchant Ausuaka or Harley would be what you picked

[MathBlade]

The row you picked I mean

[MathBlade]

Hey, I know I tunneled on Math and Math's still likely scum, but technically Ausuka wouldn't have an absolute guilty.

Yep.

Can’t be as I am VT

I kinda read this as e scum gambit but that will resolve itself

*shrug*

[MathBlade]

Ausuka has no reason to lie, but that doesn't mean an absolute 1 v 1.

Implosion with me?

Ausuka can just jail you if we're right or wrong.

I don’t see the point honestly.

If Enchant confirms me as town, then we can take time and think about things

If not I am the best elim for town even though I am a miselim

So I kinda don’t want to compromise right now

[MathBlade]

I can think of a few scum gambits where she has reason to lie but if Enchant or someone doesn’t confirm me as town I am eating a mis elim and will leave last reads

[MathBlade]

Mainly where I am at is
(And yes I won’t include me scum worlds because we will learn tonight or today that is false)

A) No roleblocker exists otherwise it would have claimed.
Therefore either doctor has an inno
Or B) scum no killed

If enchant confirms inno on me
Doctor knows they have an inno (assuming not me as that would be a dumb doc save)

We have four hard mechanical innos unless Enchant/doc are scum

So I mean like me dying tells Doctor they have an inno or scum no killed which means A is probably scum

So like why compromise? It would seem really antitown to do so.

My opinion is that but mainly we need me to flip today or be confirmed today to give town info on what happened to night kills.

[MathBlade]

Well, same, but that must be because someone above me picked what I picked, right? It's why I wanted hq and enchant to check in before I responded.

I think it's not good to claim stuff like this because scum don't know what you picked if you are town and you are just narrowing down power role positions for scum if you're town here by saying you are VT so now scum know they don't have to look for a TPR in your slot.


like it's incredibly unlikely for Ausuka!scum to fakeclaim JK because if there is any JK/Tracker in the game, they would immediately CC.

I do think Bella's claim is +town on the surface though.

Oh no

I am saying she took something of that pairing

She’s just scum who did more than likely imho

[MathBlade]

If you insist, I'll make it painless as I can.

Then, I'll nail implo and StD if you're town.

If you're scum, I'm still getting Ari.

I am insisting on enchant confirming me as town or not today.

Then tomorrow no you will not push Ari ffs

She’s like top tier town like fuck Titus

[MathBlade]

Like StD already crumbed his role and that is why I tr him so hard

No I won’t say what it is but he will be obvious by D4 or D5

So StD is a bad elim

[MathBlade]

well if you flip town she obviously won't push me right ^_^

I read that backwards my bad

[MathBlade]

Can we like not have town implode when this is very likely scum failed kill on doc shot?

Like seriously.

[MathBlade]

Like StD already crumbed his role and that is why I tr him so hard

No I won’t say what it is but he will be obvious by D4 or D5

So StD is a bad elim

StD is one slot above you....StD is very likely roleless. Please stop with mech.

No.

He legit got his role imho.

[MathBlade]

He’s been very consistent in his crumbs

[MathBlade]

VOTE: MathBlade

Cool so I am scum for disagreeing with you cool /s

I am literally leaving last reads on how you are wrong

And now you’re voting me without waiting for the clear

Like seriously?

[MathBlade]

Btw if a lim goes through while I'm not here and it flips scum I'll target whichever of implo or math is still alive

My elim should not go through without hearing from enchant.

If it does that’s a scum claim

There’s zero reason not to wait here

[MathBlade]

UNVOTE: Mathblade

Trying to make it painless since I think you've been scummy town that derailed the game because you weren't in control.

Lmao no you’ve screamed I am scum for like a long time now and now are saying I am scummy town? Bullshit

I don’t think you have a genuine read on you.

Now we wait for implosion and I do my damndest to explain myself while we wait.

[MathBlade]

I mean enchant wtf I swear I can type

[MathBlade]

where i'm at now:

tier 1 TRs:

Gamma - HQ - Titus - Mathblade - Roden(newly added cuz mech)

tier 2

Ausuka - StD

tier 3

Bella -

Null

Dwlee - Wallflower

Scumread

Implosion - Enchant

I’d have Dwlee a lot lot higher. They’re very clearly trying to solve.

That’s a joke right?

Have they even posted recently?

[MathBlade]

Like StD already crumbed his role and that is why I tr him so hard

No I won’t say what it is but he will be obvious by D4 or D5

So StD is a bad elim

Like StD already crumbed his role and that is why I tr him so hard

No I won’t say what it is but he will be obvious by D4 or D5

So StD is a bad elim

StD is one slot above you....StD is very likely roleless. Please stop with mech.

No.

He legit got his role imho.

He’s been very consistent in his crumbs

Idk why but you frantically insisting that STD is a PR is hilarious to me lmao

It's just so unnecessary and over the top

Because I know Titus

After I die and flip town she’ll still be the nosy self she is and won’t reevaluate anything

So she’ll repeat this D3 flip implosion who after this shit show wouldn’t surprise me flips town

Then one of the vigs takes her out for being goddamn annoying

[MathBlade]

Which will be protown whatever her alignment is

[MathBlade]

where i'm at now:

tier 1 TRs:

Gamma - HQ - Titus - Mathblade - Roden(newly added cuz mech)

tier 2

Ausuka - StD

tier 3

Bella -

Null

Dwlee - Wallflower

Scumread

Implosion - Enchant

Std is either X or scum. I would put him in Tier 1 for now. Can reevaluate in a few days

What is X?

A certain PR

[MathBlade]

Yes but the odds scum crumb D1 while their buddy is wagoned is very very tiny

[MathBlade]

i did get stomped by StD-Scum recently that's the only reason he's in tier 2

We will see in a few days

I figure he is like an enchant and sort himself out.

If we don’t hard read him by D4 or D5 he can go.

I would rather go where we agree on Dwlee or implosion

I really feel Asuaka but considering Titus has been screaming I am scum every three seconds I don’t think anything I push ever happens

Math, remember in Pokemon I got a guilty on Dwlee because they were pinging my scumdar off of the freaking charts? It’s the exact opposite this game.

Then say that.

Don’t bs about them trying to solve when not posting.

[MathBlade]

Like StD already crumbed his role and that is why I tr him so hard

No I won’t say what it is but he will be obvious by D4 or D5

So StD is a bad elim

Like StD already crumbed his role and that is why I tr him so hard

No I won’t say what it is but he will be obvious by D4 or D5

So StD is a bad elim

StD is one slot above you....StD is very likely roleless. Please stop with mech.

No.

He legit got his role imho.

He’s been very consistent in his crumbs

Idk why but you frantically insisting that STD is a PR is hilarious to me lmao

It's just so unnecessary and over the top

Because I know Titus

After I die and flip town she’ll still be the nosy self she is and won’t reevaluate anything

So she’ll repeat this D3 flip implosion who after this shit show wouldn’t surprise me flips town

Then one of the vigs takes her out for being goddamn annoying

Which will be protown whatever her alignment is

Ok but what does that have to do with you claiming that STD is a PR

Literally what I just said

Titus if town needs to do an entire reset and not spam the thread

[MathBlade]

The PR std is crumbing would be incredibly limiting for scum.

I don’t see scum crumbing this either.

It doesn’t make sense.

[MathBlade]

Ok but why do you need to claim that

Why can't STD just claim if he gets run up

Because he’s std and she is Titus

He wouldn’t believed
And Titus’s tunnels are deeper than the one across the world from my backyard

[MathBlade]

And as Ari said scum can claim PRs

[MathBlade]

That doesn't explain why you exposing a PR now, when he isn't getting run up, will make it more believable than if he gets run up and claims

Because when he does he can point out my fearless responses as I am a VT.

I am literally just dumping at this point because I don’t know if Enchant can confirm me

[MathBlade]

I can’t vouch for crumbs after I die
And before I die saying what it is is bad

[MathBlade]

can't he just say the crumbs himself -.-

also scum can also crumb

He can but then it’s more up to interpretation

And again they can

But scum don’t crumb this role with their buddy dying

It’s just really unlikely

[MathBlade]

I still think Math is innocent very likely.

Doesn’t matter

With my elim we learn
>> Doctor has an inno
Or
>> Scum no killed as a gambit
Or
>> Scum killed me

Order of likelihood

I think Titus and Ausuka are scum

[MathBlade]

Why BP over cop? That seems scummy

[MathBlade]

Which isn’t good if you don’t use it.

[MathBlade]

Which isn’t good if you don’t use it.

Excuse me

You heard me.

You’re not playing the game.

Give reads or do something.

[MathBlade]

Bp autoactivates...

Not literally what I meant. I mean I want him doing something in the game

[MathBlade]

Ugh HEM wagon is dying. Will vote Implosion if there's support there.

No on Ari.

Yeah Ari I reread this and Titus seems looking for any excuse to save HEM

She voted when not to go against popular opinion

But she’s always been looking for ways to get HEM off

[MathBlade]

I am just kinda tired of this game and will come back after work. Like if I die I do but like I am VT. I kind of am running out of fucks

[MathBlade]

Ugh HEM wagon is dying. Will vote Implosion if there's support there.

No on Ari.

Yeah Ari I reread this and Titus seems looking for any excuse to save HEM

She voted when not to go against popular opinion

But she’s always been looking for ways to get HEM off

@Ari yeah I did

This post makes me think she always wanted to save HEM
And shit went bad

[MathBlade]

i mean if she wanted hem to live she couldve just not buried him in the first place

that is much much easier than almost killing him the first time and then switching

Titus likes to create distancing

Likely she distanced too well

I can’t see her as town when her top pairing is you and me

Like?

I will check back after work

But I think Asuaka is scum with her

They’d do that gambit after failing to kill Enchant

[MathBlade]

VOTE: enchant

Nah we don’t kill a BP claim now

Can be elimmed later if still around

[MathBlade]

VOTE: enchant

Nah we don’t kill a BP claim now

Can be elimmed later if still around

um how does enchant flip again if we dont vote him out?

its not like mafia can nightkill him if hes town

Exactly if Enchant is town scum can’t kill him

We sort enchant by what he does

[MathBlade]

like are we ever going to get to the point where we trust enchant to endgame?

Maybe

But we can sort Enchant when mass claim happens too

If no doctor has flipped or claimed then Enchant has to be town

[MathBlade]

Like what I am thinking is scum failed to kill Enchant

Are informed JK didn’t exist

So Asuaka claims jailkept on me knowing I’d be likely VT

[MathBlade]

like are we ever going to get to the point where we trust enchant to endgame?

Maybe

But we can sort Enchant when mass claim happens too

If no doctor has flipped or claimed then Enchant has to be town

by definition we have a doctor or roleblocker

no roleblocker has claimed

therefore we have a doctor

It could be neither was picked.

[MathBlade]

Like what I am thinking is scum failed to kill Enchant

Are informed JK didn’t exist

So Asuaka claims jailkept on me knowing I’d be likely VT

Plothole Bella claimed JK and didn't get it. Bella plus Asuka is the only way Ausuka lies about getting JK.

Fair and in that world Bella always goes first

Like I don’t get how Asuaka jails me at night though when her last read was a TR on me?

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Unvote

[MathBlade]

UNVOTE:

Forgot Unvote tags for the bot

[MathBlade]

I am going to work and should stop posting unless asked

Like this game just feels wrong

If I get elimmed I understand but i swear I am town

[MathBlade]

there is literally no reason to pick bulletproof over ascetic cop

it is so so so bad

can u find a single game where town picked bulletproof over ascetic cop come on

That’s the reason to pick it

[MathBlade]

Like what I am thinking is scum failed to kill Enchant

Are informed JK didn’t exist

So Asuaka claims jailkept on me knowing I’d be likely VT

Plothole Bella claimed JK and didn't get it. Bella plus Asuka is the only way Ausuka lies about getting JK.

Fair and in that world Bella always goes first

Like I don’t get how Asuaka jails me at night though when her last read was a TR on me?

People don't play like you.
Right now, you have zero suspicion on Bella. You know Ausuka must likely be scum with Bella or not at all.

The flips change things for some.

Right now, I'd lim StD if I was queen. Meet me halfway.

I did

I unvoted

I really am going to go

[MathBlade]

just to throw a spanner in an already chaotic situation

i never crumbed my role

But you did? Pew pew pew? Calling me fearless?

I literally unvoted you afterwards telling you to keep sussing me a bit for cover?

[MathBlade]

Three pews = N3 vig ?

[MathBlade]

If I could gladiate mathblade right now I would

As the red wave of doom tries to envelop me in darkness I jump up into my starship and press shields to maximum power as I launch myself towards a giant red planet with a pi symbol on it pew pew pew

Actually nope

Std is town

I am an idiot

VOTE: Unvote

No I will not say what changed my mind

[MathBlade]

i think math is FEARLESS and would try

but maybe that's a wrong assessment

but that's what i think

Then why keep up the charade?

[MathBlade]

what charade? i didn't know i was crumbing anything

Threatening to shoot me

also Happy Birthday A

[MathBlade]

Ari, if you think Math is town, then Enchant is almost certainly town as scum don't kill themselves.

Can we just lim Implosion together, mute Math and go on?

Hopefully a vig handles Math.

could still be that scum shot into a doctor protection

i just cant handle town picking bulletproof over ascetic cop its too ridiculous for me

It makes perfect sense as top pick?
You talked a big game about Enchant eating a billet or getting policied, now there’s no conflict, so what’s the problem?
Starting to think Titus is right about you.

I think both sides make sense

But I don’t think it’s my place to explain Ari’s position here if I read her right

[MathBlade]

like are we ever going to get to the point where we trust enchant to endgame?

Maybe

But we can sort Enchant when mass claim happens too

If no doctor has flipped or claimed then Enchant has to be town

by definition we have a doctor or roleblocker

no roleblocker has claimed

therefore we have a doctor

How do we know we have doc/rb? Did someone claim to have picked that pair?

We will when I flip town

Because no kills today
Either enchant is town and shot
Or
Doctor exists

Because RB had plenty of time to claim guilty and didn’t probably scum aligned if it exists

[MathBlade]

ari being stubborn gives me town vibes

VOTE: Std

Reads informed Ari is town.

[MathBlade]

like town is literally in a better position with enchant dead as a town ascetic cop than alive as town bulletproof because we r never getting to the point where we can trust enchant

Flip another scum
JK enchant repeatedly at least until a scum kill happens
If we get down to about 6 players without any kills by scum that ENTIRE time, then we vote enchant out

Where’s the issue?

I think JK enchant is anti town
In A is town she should be free to move about the cabin

[MathBlade]

I am 50/50 on it

If Enchant is ascetic cop then dies each time we get nothing
But a BP shot is at least something as no one dies

[MathBlade]

It feels like she’s trying to eliminate Enchant by any means necessary vs. push out scum
She also feels informed about doc/rb

I think Ari is town.

I think your vibes are right but Ari is town.

[MathBlade]

It feels like she’s trying to eliminate Enchant by any means necessary vs. push out scum
She also feels informed about doc/rb

I think Ari is town.

I think your vibes are right but Ari is town.

this reads informed

Then go for it and elim me

I am just good at reading between lines here I think.

I think Ari is having her judgment clouded

[MathBlade]

like what's the real reason you are voting for me

I think you’re informed Ari is town.

I think it’s the right conclusion but you’re trying to use her own words versus formulating an honest thought.

[MathBlade]

When I voted you before you faked N3 vig to get me to back off.

[MathBlade]

so you just happen to pick up on something i said after i revealed the crumb wasn't a crumb as the reason? And nothing else?

why don't i just keep the charade going if i'm scum?

i still could be a N3 vig, i just didn't crumb it

No I said you crumbed a PR before you said you didn’t.

So like what? Your first sentence makes no grammatical sense.

Because you need the PR flexibility.

[MathBlade]

it just seems fishy that you're like "the first thing you said is bad" after discovering the crumb isn't a crumb

instead of like "well if it's not a crumb i guess i'll vote STD again"

You’re welcome to find it fishy if you like

But I think you’re full of shit.

I don’t try to look good I am honest

[MathBlade]

Let's just massclaim this out.

With Math, Ausuku, Enchant and Bella already on the table. There's not much left.

What did Bella claim?

VT supporting Bella's claim exists

I thought Bella claimed VT supporting Ausuka’s JK claim?

Or am I mistaken?

[MathBlade]

PR/VT Order
StD
Dwlee
Titus
Ari
Wallflower
Implosion
Gamma
HQ

PR claim order
Harley
Gamma
Implosion
Wallflower
Ari
Titus
Dwlee
StD

@Math, You're right. I made a typo.
You good with this massclaim order?

I can’t calculate that at work

I think that I would prefer both bottom up I think.

That way the bottom have to claim the specific PR first

Then if upper has that PR it’s a definite CC and the CCer is more likely truth telling

The way you have it enables the specific PR claimers to pick from leftovers