Open 869 | Fight for the Winter Court [Game Over!]
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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Hi everyone!! Very excited to play with you all
A couple quick thoughts on this setup. These are just my own assessments. I would of course love to discuss if anyone disagrees, I know a majority of you have played in previous runs.
1) On day 1, it is extremely beneficial to scum to be among the first to lock in their locations. Any early votes should be put under intense pressure and scrutiny.
2) On day 2, I think it also benefits scum a lot if there is an open consensus about the order of resolving the locations. It allows them to plan ahead, plant associatives, and be prepared for what's coming. I suggest being flexible.-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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What do you mean by that? put a top consensus townread there?
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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It seems like there's an implied assumption here that you are or will be obvtown, is that what you're saying? What makes you special in that regard over anyone else, I guess is what I'm asking.In post 16, demona wrote:like
i feel like
the benefit to me locking in keep would be to force the mafia to move me or concede the keep
whereas the main benefit to me locking in the wall would be turning the wall into a second gate
so i was wondering if you thought there was great value in that since it seems you've been thinking about the setup et cetera-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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I don't think I'm the best setup-strat-solver here. Maybe not even in the top halfIn post 23, Isis wrote:Coral should just solve the strat and then we should play mafia
I'm happy to get discussion going, though-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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I had the same thought pregame that probably quarantining you to the one you are likely enjoy least is not as necessary in this run as the previous one.In post 26, Faker wrote:I'm pretty indifferent at the end of the day. I think Gate would be pretty fun to run-back, and puts scum in between a rock and a hard place. I think Wall would be a bad fit but I'd get to play longer. I think Keep is really suited to my playstyle, but I want to hang around and enjoy the game for awhile and that tends to resolve early. It's a good place to quarantine me, but I'm also hoping that enough people have strong scumgames here that I get to go elsewhere.
I generally oppose Coral's suggestion and am curious to hear more of the reasoning behind it.
Which suggestion do you disagree with? The flexible solve order, or the closely examining early decisioners?-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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That's a reasonable (and unsurprising!) take. My belief from previous runs is that scum struggled the most when town did unexpected things in the midgame. I think a rigid solve order does put all of the pieces on the table, which allows for the more chess-like analysis of how things develop, and that's valid.In post 31, Faker wrote:This part. I strongly believe that more information/transparency is better for town in virtually every scenario. I don't think of scum planning, planting associatives, etc being bad things. Defense predicated on obscurity really defeats the entire point of mafia.
I think the reason I lean towards wanting to inject some areas of unpredictability here is that we really only have very few points of information gain compared to a standard game. The depth is very shallow, there's very few points where a flip or new piece of mechanical info will allow people to step back and reassess. There's a limited number of moves to be made in the game. I think if scum know what IC especially is thinking and where they want to go, it makes things fairly easy for them.
I'm open to disagreement, as I said, but that's my reasoning at least.-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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I think it is. It's definitely +MV, which I would prefer to avoid, even if it is at a minor cost of EV. I want this to be a low Miserableness Value game, if possible.In post 54, Isis wrote:I quoted 33 because I wanted to ask about quarantining faker in the first game but then I decided to not flood a game that's already 90 mph but I guess I'm asking now. Isn't making a slot miserable -EV?
Faker suggested it in the previous game of this that she played, so it was on my mind that she likely would bring it up again, and I think it's more fun to let her frolick freely in the pastures of her dreams.-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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I probably prefer Keep, if it matters. Purely from a playstyle perspective, I think it's ideal to have patience and cooperation there, since scum NEED a town to vote first and vote wrong. I have more faith in those abilities of mine than in pure read abilities, at least.
Gate could be alright, I think I'm pretty bad at 1v1s but I would enjoy the solving based on a known flip aspect if I'm uncleared. Being the clear sounds like a lot of pressure
Wall is just standard and would be fine.-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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I might have gotten the names mixed up and I also might be misinterpreting/misremembering a comment you made last time. I thought you said something along the lines of that you would not enjoy the Gate, but that you thought it was the most +EV place for you to go.In post 67, Faker wrote:This might just be a function of me being tired/illiterate but I don't know why people think the Keep would make me miserable. I'm pretty indifferent on where to go, I'd rather defer to others' preferences. The downside is more just that it resolves early but shrug, I like games like Trust Fall and Undertale exactly for the townhunting mechanic.
Gate is nice because I might get to do similar even though I'm not a great clear, and I haven't been voted out as town since early 2017. I'm not the best clear but I'd love to have the ball in my (winter) court this game, and if someone is down and thinks they can break the streak I'd love to see you try!-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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If you end up in the 1v1, you have one flipped scum from your POV to work with, prior to any games resolving. I think that sort of solving sounds appealing.In post 81, absinthe wrote:
Elaborate?In post 76, Coral wrote:I would enjoy the solving based on a known flip aspect if I'm uncleared-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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Can you restate what you think my suggestion is? The way you're talking about it sounds different than what I mean to be saying, so maybe I miscommunicated.In post 92, Faker wrote:I think Coral would make this kind of suggestion as scum and after reviewing their answer I do scumlean this. I don't think she expected anyone to actually follow this and is mostly in it for the towncred.
The unpredictability happens mainly because players are open/talking and suddenly town players take the ball and individually run the other way unexpectedly. This is a function of the degree of transparency of the players, not of them hiding the ball.In post 43, Coral wrote:My belief from previous runs is that scum struggled the most when town did unexpected things in the midgame. I think a rigid solve order does put all of the pieces on the table, which allows for the more chess-like analysis of how things develop, and that's valid.
I think the reason I lean towards wanting to inject some areas of unpredictability here is that we really only have very few points of information gain compared to a standard game.
You are right that I would say this as scum, but I do believe that it's pro-town and it doesn't seem at all unreasonable to expect that people would follow it, which is why I think maybe we're talking about different things?-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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yes, please sleepIn post 103, Faker wrote:o h
yeah i thought you were talking about commentary on minigames
;_; okay i sleep i'm useless
I was not and certainly would not suggest that nobody talk about other games. Everyone should absolutely do as much of that as possible.
I just meant we shouldn't go into day 2 with a rigid resolve order and never waver from that.-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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I'd like to see what she does next first, if you don't mind, but I promise I will later!In post 123, Chara wrote:Coral, tell us about your Isis read! please. :>-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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On paper the keep is the easiest for town, but in practice there can be a delicate balance and a lot of back and forth. The on paper strategy is for there to be a consensus that the scummiest player votes first, and then if they refuse to vote, they are outed as scum. But it isn't always that easy.In post 140, demona wrote:
mmm hard for me to not feel like there might me an angle here after i expressed my thoughts regarding keep:In post 122, absinthe wrote:Coral feels pretty town.
like i don’t really think we need patience and cooperation to win the keep we just need one town to believe in the other and it doesn’t need to be two way street or anythingIn post 76, Coral wrote:I probably prefer Keep, if it matters. Purely from a playstyle perspective, I think it's ideal to have patience and cooperation there, since scum NEED a town to vote first and vote wrong. I have more faith in those abilities of mine than in pure read abilities, at least.
and if in the keep and there is absolutely no way to be the town that is believed in like if the other players in the keep refuse to ever vote for you then you simply ask them to each self vote and then it becomes the gate at least from my perspective
For example, consider the scenario where town A has a correct townread, but town B townreads scum (C). Town A will want to encourage C to vote first. C can indicate that they want to vote A. If B panics and thinks that vote will lose the minigame, they may pre-empt the vote and vote for C themselves, thinking that is the only way to win the game.
In general it is quite easy if the two town find each other, and can run on a knife's edge if they don't. It can be a very exciting and tense minigame with a lot of potential for mindgames. I think that patience and cooperation are valuable for it.
I'm also aware that it's likely to be a favorite choice for a lot of people, and not everyone who wants to go there will be able to.-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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The idea is that even if A believes their read is correct, they can use the mechanic as a check against their read by asking C to vote instead. That way, even if their read is wrong they still have a chance at winning the game.In post 151, demona wrote:town b is town and is being townread by a and therefore should ask a to vote for b and then b self votes and town wins - like why would town b ever trust their read of c over trusting in their own alignment?
B would prefer for A to just vote them, of course, but that isn't always the best play from A's point of view.
If (whichever town decides to vote first) just votes for who they think is town, it's true that's mechanically a 50% chance at a win. Maybe that's better than playing the "make the scummy player vote" game and introducing these potential difficulties. I'm not sure what's optimal, my opinions are just based on how things have played out in the past-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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I thought a lot about how I'd play as scum, in the same way that I thought about how scum would play, and how town should play. I find this setup very interesting and fun to puzzle box.In post 199, skitter30 wrote:
I'm concerned because this seems to be coming from a scum povIn post 191, absinthe wrote:and I like their concerns about scum making early moves to lock into minigame slots
Like it seems like their concerns are stemming from 'having thought abt how they'd play this as scum'
Wrt you: fair, i have tried to block parts of that from my memory. You feel really like weird and distant tho
If I said those things as scum, they would be with the goal of getting towncred. It would be understandable to suspect me for that reason. But I don't understand suspecting me for those thoughts coming from having thought about how I'd play this as scum. If those thoughts had only occurred to me after rolling scum, I would be somewhat unlikely to expect to get towncred from saying them?-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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I had a related thought of, after some discussion, voting on who chooses location first? Possibly with popcorning after. I think that method is likely to reduce the agency scum has over their location choices. Did you have a different approach in mind?In post 201, catboi wrote:Was wondering if it'd be possible given the group of people to have assignments decided in a democratic manner - was thinking that absent traditional gameplay mechanisms you can't really exert meaningful pressure on scum and if instead people were held to a vote on who to send where it'd provide data and some amount of discussion fodder. My approach the time I played this as town was pretty bad and I'd like to do something a little different.-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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what do you think my goal would be of posting them as scum?In post 207, skitter30 wrote:I don't think you expect to get towncred for them, i just think the things you're posting are more likely to come from scum then town-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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Not that you have any reason to believe me in particular, but I think everything I've said mechanically so far are things that I thought of prior to getting my role pm this game.In post 213, skitter30 wrote:Like i guess my thoughts when i'm tend to trend more towards 'this is jow i think town should play the game'
And less 'i think scum is going to play like this so this is how we can counter that'
If that makes sense
I don't really believe that you think I would aimlessly post my scum pov without a goal in mind.-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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As in, a separate vote (gate/keep/wall) for each slot?In post 219, catboi wrote:I was thinking straight majority assignment, not declaring who gets to choose first. Of course that might make some people unhappy to be sent to a place but someone's got to go.
My thought is that's hard to really comprehend the meaning of what each individual vote means in that case.-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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For what it's worth I agree with this, from a playstyle perspective.In post 228, absinthe wrote:In post 223, catboi wrote:
that's the secret: it's all 3p eloIn post 216, absinthe wrote:The wall is my least desired minigame because I hate hate hate 3p elo.traditional3p elo. I really do like the Keep conceptually and feel like in most player lists I'm a good choice to go there.-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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It just feels like a read where you are actively resisting thinking about it on a level past 0, and that's hard for me to understand.In post 229, skitter30 wrote:
I'm not saying 'aimlessly post your scum pov'In post 222, Coral wrote:I don't really believe that you think I would aimlessly post my scum pov without a goal in mind.
I'm sayinng you were making a post to share your thoughts abt the game which i think happen to be more likely to come from scum
Those arent quite the same thing-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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I'm curious about your strategic disagreements hereIn post 215, Isis wrote:I think it's strategically inaccurate, same as Faker-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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I think it feels to me like if you had thought about it on a deeper level then you wouldn't have found it to be a significant point. That may be my own bias in the situation, but still, it feels like when I attempt to guide you towards why I believe that to be the case, you are uninterested in trying.In post 233, skitter30 wrote:What does that even mean in this context
It doesn't feel like an engagement meant to sort me, it feels like you've decided your point and don't want to look into it any further. Which, realistically, is your right! It still feels a bit wrong to me, though.-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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This is why I thought finding the consensus towniest person and having them pick first could be useful.In post 234, skitter30 wrote:I'm not sure how we're now going to crack the ice to start placing people-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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Yes, guiding her towards the deeper meaning behind her point. I think I was clearly asking leading questions of her. She doesn't have to follow them if she doesn't want to, obviously.In post 242, Chara wrote:
mmm, 'guiding her' is an interesting choice of words. aren't you trying to read skitter here, not guide her? is her read on you scummy to you?In post 238, Coral wrote:
I think it feels to me like if you had thought about it on a deeper level then you wouldn't have found it to be a significant point. That may be my own bias in the situation, but still, it feels like when I attempt to guide you towards why I believe that to be the case, you are uninterested in trying.In post 233, skitter30 wrote:What does that even mean in this context
It doesn't feel like an engagement meant to sort me, it feels like you've decided your point and don't want to look into it any further. Which, realistically, is your right! It still feels a bit wrong to me, though.
Both for the goal of seeing if she did have a deeper meaning/analysis behind her point (and I didn't much like the fact that she didn't seem to), and for the goal of hopefully bringing us closer to finding each other as town if she is.-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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In post 119, Coral wrote:I think the optimal approach here is to find all the scum day 1, then hard townread all of them, lock into the gate, and hope they make me IC for my wrong reads and then boom I turn on them
I thought I laid it on pretty thick but maybe notIn post 121, Coral wrote:completely unrelated to my previous post, I hard townread Isis and Faker-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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Because I didn't want to say why I found her early posts scummy until she made more of them.In post 253, Chara wrote:
so why make this post?In post 125, Coral wrote:
I'd like to see what she does next first, if you don't mind, but I promise I will later!In post 123, Chara wrote:Coral, tell us about your Isis read! please. :>-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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I appreciate the constructive comedy criticism, I think you're rightIn post 258, Isis wrote:
Oh I think the mistaken scumcount made the joke hard to follow, since you'd want to name a full set of fail in the basic version of that joke.In post 251, Coral wrote:In post 119, Coral wrote:I think the optimal approach here is to find all the scum day 1, then hard townread all of them, lock into the gate, and hope they make me IC for my wrong reads and then boom I turn on them
I thought I laid it on pretty thick but maybe notIn post 121, Coral wrote:completely unrelated to my previous post, I hard townread Isis and Faker
unfortunately I only had 2 scumleans. maybe I should have waited until I had 3-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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It was 2 scumleans and maybe 1 townlean, for full disclosure! (the maybe townlean was catboi)In post 259, Chara wrote:i misread it as referring to the previouspreviouspost about how she only had two or three townleans...-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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I will say I'm starting to regret discouraging people from just picking their choices. Building consensus and going from there in a thread with 3 scum vs 6 town is maybe actually not likely to produce the best results, since town are rather unlikely to have strong placement opinions for others and could get influenced fairly easily-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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Sharing reads is always productive, yes. Maybe I'm projecting here, but although I have some vague ideas of pairings that seem useful, or playstyles that work better in different locations, if I were to attempt to do a full location sort a lot of it would be "well, here, I guess". It could be I'm alone on that.-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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Dear God I am awful at keeping track of these namesIn post 430, Faker wrote:Coral might be a good fit there, bit more formal but definitely same whimsy, but you seem to take Coral's tone/style as more face value which is definitely a mistake. I don't know how vulnerable Isis is after I hauled her up the mountain vs. Coral in Eurybia-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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The downside of this is that both are people that I would naturally want to trust and I'm somewhat vulnerable to that. A more detached grouping might be a bit more +EV +MVIn post 475, Coral wrote:That was quoted to say that I would enjoy that grouping! I can't confidently say I can read them accurately, but I feel like I have a level of understanding of them more than others, that may help. Both of them usually make sense to me-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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I think that's a reasonable perspective to have. I'll try to dig in a little more and think more deeply about the locations when I have some time later today.In post 482, Faker wrote:
I really disagree with this, both because I think town has strong incentives to care about where/who they are with, and because I'm town and have strong opinions because of those strong incentives.In post 464, Coral wrote:I will say I'm starting to regret discouraging people from just picking their choices. Building consensus and going from there in a thread with 3 scum vs 6 town is maybe actually not likely to produce the best results, since town are rather unlikely to have strong placement opinions for others and could get influenced fairly easily
My specific location thoughts are a bit all over the place but there are clear good/bad matchups. We can modify these a bit based off of novelty, fun, and scarcity of slots, but we really want to exert pressure in this manner. Pressure scum to acquiesce to bad matchups or justify saying no, and narrow the options available for them to swap by making certain options much more enticing.
It was more an inkling of paranoia of that if we are working towards building a consensus and deciding locations that way, if a scum wants to just argue strongly for what is optimal for them, they likely will be able to just take the reins and do it.
I guess really that's an argument for resolving the minigame of whoever most strongly pushed a consensus we land on first. It does leave a pretty big trail, so maybe the worry was unimportant-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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In post 411, Chara wrote:from a pure numbers standpoint, is it a good idea to herd universal-ish scumreads into Keep?In post 413, Chara wrote:kitty/Tempest/absinthe is my early call. Isis could replace one.
Chara, was your pick of 3 names here meant to be your own scumreads, or your assessment of what "universal-ish scumreads" were? And what did the post about skitter have to do with it?In post 414, Chara wrote:eh, throw that out. i'm assuming skitter town out of laziness when i have no read on her.
I'm also curious if there's a game-related motivation behind this (as in, beyond just personal affinity/meshing well), and how you arrived at this decision. In this case, "I don't want to share yet" is a valid answer, but I would like to cash that in eventually if soIn post 425, Chara wrote:i've decided, group is Isis/Chara and whoever else wants to be there. not Keep. this is my only stipulation and it is serious!-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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Hmm okay, that makes more sense, thanks!In post 572, Chara wrote:the three name picks were my scumreads, but with a null read on skitter they're not anything i want to put a lot of stock into, given two of them were her own scumreads and my own tendency to be more confident in my reads when someone else who is 'good at mafia' shares them. (meaning, i made the list and then went hm, this is probably influenced more than i'd like by skitter)
and i have a game-related reason for me/Isis being a group i'd really like.
And we'll follow up on that next game day, then.-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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I like Faker's plan for it, mostly. I'm currently leaning towards feeling trusting of Faker (rookie mistake), and at the same time not feeling town on absinthe. So that + Faker wanting to pair up + absinthe feeling a little resistant towards accepting that arrangement = me wanting to voice support of it.In post 595, catboi wrote:
Why is that, exactly?In post 591, Coral wrote:I like absinthe in Keep with catboi and Faker.-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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Also, the other side to this is that I think absinthe would do well there if town, so either way it seems like a good grouping.In post 603, Coral wrote:
I like Faker's plan for it, mostly. I'm currently leaning towards feeling trusting of Faker (rookie mistake), and at the same time not feeling town on absinthe. So that + Faker wanting to pair up + absinthe feeling a little resistant towards accepting that arrangement = me wanting to voice support of it.In post 595, catboi wrote:
Why is that, exactly?In post 591, Coral wrote:I like absinthe in Keep with catboi and Faker.-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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What's unideal about it, from your perspective?In post 598, Faker wrote:Okay that makes Gate Coral, skitter, absinthe/Tempest which ~isn't ideal~ and I'm wondering if putting Isis/Chara in Gate is better-
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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Coral She/herGoonShe/her
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