Open 321: Kc's FIRE and ICE: Game over.

[killerjester]

Hi. I'm replacing cavjj.

Got some reading to do, but figured I might stop by and /confirm.

[killerjester]

So I was reading the thread thinking "Hmm, PI is likely scum." Just got to the part where cavjj replaces PI, and I have to say I actually double-checked my role PM to make sure I didn't read it wrong.

Aaand I'm trying to stay a little current so I don't get too far behind. So TF, don't you think it's also possible the mafia weren't on Emp's list and killed him to put us off in the wrong direction?

Reab, WIFOM stands for Wine in Front of Me, a reference to the movie The Princess Bride. ISO is short for Isolation, a "Display posts by user:" tool you can find at the bottom of any pages to isolate posts from a single player. And OMGUS stands for Oh my God you Suck.

Most of the terminology can be found on the MafiaScum wiki, but I get townpoints if I explain it instead of just giving you the link.

[killerjester]

why would you care about townpoints?

I like points.

[killerjester]

I think he was being sarcastic..

I was.

[killerjester]

Can't say I'm too worried about it. I don't expect a majority of players to take it seriously, and afterall the town needs a majority to lynch.

[killerjester]

Sorry, I'll use [/sarcasm] tags like Krazy and TF next time.

[killerjester]

Back on Topic! DX, top scumreads at the moment?

[killerjester]

You're null on 2/3 of the players here?

[killerjester]

I won't push the topic too hard, but I do expect you to haves reads on more than just a minority of the players.

CSL, you're next on my to-followup-on list.

And Whiskers got rung up to L-2 already. There are scum on this wagon, I believe.

Who are the scum on the Whiskers wagon?

[killerjester]

Finished my read through, by the way.

Leaning scum on Cirno and Krazy. Leaning town on VE, Klazam, and Reab. All subject to change, please ask questions if you want to know anything specific and I'll have them answered after my dinner.

@Mod, I know it's a

constant

work-in-progress with this game, but could you update the first post to reflect the replacements? I noticed you still have Yank as in this game

[killerjester]

KJ, I want to know what about Reab makes you think he's town, especially your opinion on the vt thing. Rechecking the role PM is also a red flag to me.

Reab, the wiki has information on abbreviations if you're confused.

I promise I'll have a larger post later, but I have a friend coming to visit, her name is Irene, maybe you've heard of her? Anyway, I have a migraine from the pressure change and I'll likely lose power (and thus internet/computer) tomorrow and Sunday.

Oh yeah, TF, why the wifom with the nk speculation? and kj's comment about townpoints looks really bad, sarcastic or not.

unvote
vote: kj

Okay, first order of business. Reab's play fits with the claim that this is his first game ever. I believe he truly didn't know what VT meant, and even if his role PM did say "Vanilla Townie", he could have likely just shortened the idea down to "Townie". His little knowledge of other terms supports this noob theory.

Beyond that, I also got strong town reads from his active-scumhunting predecessor JPop. I read nothing to strongly support that either of them could be scum.

Rechecking the role PM was also, like the townpoints, entirely joking. It was just imagery used to express how surprised I was at PI's scummy level of play after I realized I had replaced into his slot. Can you explain why this is a red flag, and then continue on to why my sarcasm about townpoints also looks bad?

[killerjester]

CSL, I had a question for you.

[killerjester]

Do you think there is only one scum on the wagon?

Why are you voting TF over your scum lynchpool on the wagon?

[killerjester]

VOTE: Krazy

This kid is scum.

[killerjester]

Vote Visceral Eyes.

Opportunistic

Wow, the mass V/LA has brought this game to its knees. I am extremely dismayed that I can get no traction on VE, and this game desperately needs a wagon with some life in it and maybe even a lynch.

Between the three leading wagons, cavjj is an unclear but not in my top three, David I have a slight townread on, and Reab is just a mess. Between the three, Reab has produced the most WIFOM material, after VE, and is the player in this game I least want to see currently make it to a lylo situation even if town. I can reasonably see that slip earlier in the game actually being a scumslip, and even without that, he's at best an unclear at this point. But let me reinforce that VE is still my first choice for today's lynch as he is still far and away more scummy than Reab and I just do not get how people do not see this.

Having absolutely no momentum in this game is making it really boring, and of the three wagons, Reab's is the best.

Vote Reab

ATTENTION: THIS IS L-2.

Opportunisticccccccc

This isn't remotely straightforward and you're pretty clearly trying to downplay what was (and is) a blatant rolefish.

Vote Whiskers

OPPORTUNISTICCCCC

[killerjester]

I know you've already explained your reasons. But could you go over your VE case another time for me? Or at least link me to your post(s) which are a fair and accurate representation of your read on the guy. I'm having a hard time reading why he is one of your top scumvibes. And, if you don't mind, try to make scum connections between players. "If TF is scum, player xxxx is likely to be his partner from the posts here and here" sort of deal.

I think the latter part is important to include in your claim that you've found all 4 of them.

[killerjester]

Oh, also an update of my opinion. If Krazy is scum, I think his partner is in his second theorized group of scum (VE, Cirno, CSL, and Klazam). Of these, I'm leaning more toward Cirno first and CSL second.

Because when gbevilchaos was still here, his posts also supported the theory of Cirno being his scumbuddy.

[killerjester]

Scum connections, too.

[killerjester]

What are you looking for here? A bunch of chainsaws, or an opportunity to accuse me of setting up mislynches? I don't see a point in really speculating on that since I don't really see a good reason to restrict any of them from being partners with any of the others. Scum plays as scum, with the complete lack of luster in most of these wagons, I wouldn't be surprised if they spent half of every day throwing miniature busses at each other. There's really nothing but WIFOM in that route.

You're at this point accusing of moving around wagons too much, or overextending myself, while asking me to form connections that are quite frankly overextensions. You're basically saying, "please do something scummy so I can accuse you of being scummy." In this regard I must ask you to stop tunneling.

I'm looking for an opportunity to see how your thought process works. I don't feel as though I'm tunneling, just trying to get an accurate read on you. I promise to read your connections unbiasedly.

If you don't see any connections, that's fine and you should just say so. However, I don't agree with you saying that scum connections don't matter or are too WIFOM to decipher.

[killerjester]

You're null on about half the players here.

Why would you joke about how scummy your predecessor was? Why would you care/pay attention to PI's play? That's why it's a red flag.

Sarcasm about townpoints - It looks an awful lot like you're just trying to backtrack and make an excuse for a scumslip you got caught in

Yea but I've been probing my nulls at least to get reads on them.

I was paying attention to PI because I was scumhunting. I hadn't realized I replaced him. That's the joke.

Really? Are you-.. There are no words. If you think something that blatantly obvious was more likely to be a scumslip than sarcasm, then I'm not really going to convince you that 2+2=4 this game.

[killerjester]

I saw cavjj replaced him, and had a moment of LOL. I didn't actually recheck my role PM.

[killerjester]

@MOD: Can we have a vote history with the next VC please?

[killerjester]

I can gather a quick vote history. Give me some time.

[killerjester]

Feel free to double-check my work. I think I got everything, though.

=DAY 1=

killerjester/cavjj/PersonalIdiot04

- David Xanatos -> Whiskers

CSL/warriormode

- Cirno -> verydark -> Reab -> Whiskers

David Xanatos/malpascp

- VisceraEyes -> PersonalIdiot04 -> Empking -> Toon Fighter -> Cavjj -> Reab

Toon Fighter

- VisceraEyes -> Reab

smargret/YankCane151

- Toon Fighter -> Reab -> Whiskers

Cirno

- VisceraEyes -> Toon Fighter -> David Xanatos

VisceraEyes

- verydark -> VisceraEyes -> PersonalIdiot04 -> verydark -> Toon Fighter -> CSL

Reab/MediocreJPop/iBetrayal/LTP Mafia

- VisceraEyes -> Toon Fighter -> warriormode -> Toon Fighter -> Whiskers

Klazam/ConfidAnon

- malpascp -> gbevilchaos -> PersonalIdiot04/Cavjj -> Reab -> Cavjj -> Whiskers

Krazy/gbevilchaos

- ConfidAnon -> iBetrayal -> PersonalIdiot04 -> VisceraEyes -> Reab -> Whiskers

Whiskers/verydark

- iBetrayal -> PersonalIdiot04 -> MediocreJPop -> Empking -> CSL

Empking/SigmaEXE003

- VisceraEyes -> gbevilchaos -> PersonalIdiot04 -> verydark -> Cavjj -> Whiskers

=DAY 2=

killerjester/cavjj/PersonalIdiot04

- Krazy

CSL/warriormode

- Toon Fighter -> Krazy

David Xanatos/malpascp

- Toon Fighter

Toon Fighter

- Krazy -> CSL

smargret/YankCane151

- Reab -> killerjester

Cirno

- David Xanatos

VisceraEyes

- CSL

Reab/MediocreJPop/iBetrayal/LTP Mafia

- CSL -> killerjester -> CSL

Klazam/ConfidAnon

- Toon Fighter

Krazy/gbevilchaos

- Toon Fighter

[killerjester]

@KJ: As one of the people requesting the vote history, are you going to analyze it or wait for other players to do so?

I quoted DavidX moreso for the VC (hadn't had one in the last two pages) than the vote history...so the second one.

Stopped reading Krazy's posts.

What is implied by this bit?

[killerjester]

Cirno - it's less that the townpoints comment is scummy, and more that the behavior was scummy and the townpoints rationalization looks like kj's flailing around after getting caught trying to appear town.

Don't you agree that scum searching for townpoints would be a

little more

inconspicuous about it? That honestly the last I'm saying on the matter. If you think I should hang by the neck until dead for a joke then we don't exactly see eye to eye, but as long as you aren't convincing everyone else of such let's pretend to play the rest of the game together because I really don't think you are scum.

What do you think of my case on Krazy?

[killerjester]

CSL is scummy but there are orders of magnitude difference between the two.

is a terrible reason to be upset with the CSL wagon, by the way

I'm not really gonna push for the lynch of the V/LA guy. Not when CSL is a great candidate.

UNVOTE: Krazy
VOTE: CSL

FoS

: Krazy

[killerjester]

Krazy and CSL, who are TF's likely partners?

[killerjester]

KJ, you're on the CSL wagon. Does your FoS of Krazy indicate that you think he might be CSL's partner? Or do you think they're on opposing factions?

Opposing factions. I think they're buddied to closely on the TF wagon to both be on the same faction. Krazy makes more sense as Cirno's partner. I'm not sure who would be CSL's partner at the moment, but DavidX and TF both make sense.

So to be clear, I'd be most comfortable with (Krazy, Cirno, CSL) dying today, and failing that I wouldn't oppose a DavidX or TF lynch.

[killerjester]

No. Because he's town.

Krazy and CSL aren't buddies, but it hardly makes a difference. We still need to lynch them to win.

[killerjester]

You heard the man! Let's lynch him.

[killerjester]

I'm game!

[killerjester]

Meta defense? Ohboynotthisagain

[killerjester]

It's because both scum tried to kill me.

VOTE: Krazy

[killerjester]

Hey. You promised us a show. "All will be revealed" something to that extent.

What gives?

[killerjester]

Krazy, who did you target last night?

[killerjester]

Hey. Waitaminute. David, that means the person you saved N1 is clear right?

@smargaret, I don't see how we can have 3 clears.

[killerjester]

I totally missed the n't part of aren't. Wow.

But you are right in the sense that I can't see scum-David painting a red target on his back for the rival scum to jump at. He would've had to assume the real doctor would protect him AND submit a no-kill for his own team to falsify a result like this. It's more likely that David is town.

PEDIT: Sup with that FoS Klazam?

[killerjester]

I think we should all release our townlists and then vote the person that is on none of them.

For instance, does anyone think Krazy is town?

[killerjester]

My townlist is DX, smarg, Reab, then I'm caught between VE and Klazam. But I'm fairly certain Krazy, Cirno, and TF are all scum.

[killerjester]

He's had multiple back-and-forth arguments with gbevilchaos and Krazy (gb's replacement). Most recently, he's stated something to the extent of, "I'm ignoring Krazy now, not going to read his posts anymore."

I think it's very possible they are scumbuddies and have been distancing each other all game. A look through the votecount shows they have none voted for each other once, and I find this peculiar given how much they have been arguing with each other. Also, they have never been on the same wagon. Ever. Not during a single votecount. And it's Day 3. So while Cirno doesn't have many good examples of him being individually scummy, I see him as the only option for being Krazy's partner. Their interactions together have been far too scummy.

Back and forth early on D1
:IagreewithEmpking: here
Another back-and-forth, this time with Krazy
"I've stopped reading Krazy's posts

[killerjester]

In the context of this game you are the scummiest player I've ever seen.

[killerjester]

Why is Krazy town?

[killerjester]

That doesn't look good for me. Klazam, any chance my short case convinced you to take cirno off your townlist and put me on instead?

[killerjester]

I'm a little worried because I have two townreads voting for me. That means there are 4 scum out there who, I'm sure, would just looooooove to run my bandwagon up and hammer it. Considering that I expect Klazam to vote me to L-2 I'd say I'm rightfully worried.

I don't see how posting townlists hurt the docs odds of protecting right over not posting townlists.

[killerjester]

Mod- votecount?

After the mod shows a votecount, I'll hop on the largest bandwagon that isnt on my townlist.

That.

[killerjester]

I can't do anything about their play. Do you seriously think Krazy and cirno are both town?

[killerjester]

Here is what I don't get. I haven't discouraged a TF lynch.

All.

Game.

Long.

Why do you feel the need to misrepresent my actions?

[killerjester]

Besides, by Krazy-perspective, who has scum reads on both VE and Klazam, my fencesitting there shouldn't really have been a wtf moment for him. He's just looking for an opportunity to say I'm scummy so he can jump on my wagon. It's so obvious that it sticks out like a sore thumb.

[killerjester]

Process of elimination. Scumreads on TF, cirno and Krazy. Townreads on smarg, DX, and Reab. I suppose I really do need to take a position on which one of you is the 4th. Brb ISO'ing.

[killerjester]

I'm not avoiding anything. TF is scum, I haven't been unclear about my opinion on this. Your logic is basically, "Why me? You suggested we lynch the person that isn't on anyone's townlist!" Well yeah. You and TF both weren't on anyone's townlist at the time and frankly I'm quite fine if either of you get lynched. You go on and on about, "He's been avoiding TF!!!!" when the truth of the matter is no one's brought up my opinion on TF or my reasons for it.

Why me = Fry me. That's really all the reason I need to vote you. If anything though, Krazy's getting a little too passionate about his selective scumhunting here. I don't think Krazy and TF are partners.

Spoiler: bandwagons for my scumputer next post, gonna find this 4th scum

Cirno

- 1 -

warriormode

- (L-6)

iBetrayal

- 1 -

verydark

- (L-6)

PersonalIdiot04

- 2 - ConfidAnon, gbevilchaos - (L-5)

Toon Fighter

- 1 - YankCane151 - (L-6)

VisceraEyes

- 4 -

SigmaEXE003

, Cirno,

malpascp

, iBetrayal - (L-3)

Players not voting:

PersonalIdiot04

, Toon Fighter, VisceraEyes

PersonalIdiot04

- 3 - ConfidAnon,

verydark

,

Empking

- (L-4)

Toon Fighter

- 2 - YankCane151, Cirno - (L-5)

VisceraEyes

- 4 -

malpascp

, Toon Fighter, gbevilchaos, MediocreJPop - (L-3)

Players not voting:

PersonalIdiot04

, VisceraEyes,

warriormode

Empking

- 2 -

verydark

- (L-4)

Reab

- 1 - Klazam - (L-6)

Toon Fighter

- 5 - YankCane151, Cirno, VisceraEyes,

David Xanthos

, Reab - (L-2)

verydark

- 1 -

Empking

- (L-6)

ViscaraEyes

- 2 - Toon Fighter, Krazy - (L-5)

Players not voting:

cavjj

, ViscaraEyes,

warriormode

cavjj

- 2 -

Empking

, Klazam - (L-5)

David Xanthos

- 2 -

cavjj

, Cirno - (L-5)

Empking

- 1 -

Whiskers

- (L-6)

Reab

- 5 - Toon Fighter, smargaret,

CSL

,

David Xanthos

, Krazy - (L-2)

Toon Fighter

- 1 - ViscaraEyes - (L-6)

Players not voting: Reab, Toon Fighter

CSL

- 1 - ViscaraEyes - (L-6)

David Xanthos

- 1 - Cirno - (L-6)

Empking

- 1 -

Whiskers

- (L-6)

Reab

- 3 - Toon Fighter,

David Xanthos

, - (L-4)

Whiskers

- 5 -

CSL

, Klazam, smargaret,

Empking

,

cavjj

, Krazy, Reab - (L-0)

Players not voting:

None

CSL

- 3 - ViscaraEyes, Reab, Toon Fighter - (L-3)

David Xanthos

- 1 - Cirno - (L-5)

killerjester

- 1 - smargaret - (L-5)

Krazy

- 2 -

killerjester

,

CSL

- (L-4)

Toon Fighter

- 3 - Klazam,

David Xanthos

, Krazy - (L-3)

Players not voting: None

CSL

- 4 - ViscaraEyes, Reab, Toon Fighter,

killerjester

- (L-2)

David Xanthos

- 1 - Cirno - (L-5)

killerjester

- 1 - smargaret - (L-5)

Krazy

- 1 -

CSL

- (L-5)

Toon Fighter

- 3 - Klazam,

David Xanthos

, Krazy - (L-3)

Players not voting:

None

CSL

- 6 - ViscaraEyes, Reab, Toon Fighter,

killerjester

, smargaret,

David Xanthos

- (L-0)

David Xanthos

- 1 - Cirno - (L-5)

Krazy

- 1 -

CSL

- (L-5)

Toon Fighter

- 2 - Klazam, Krazy - (L-4)

Players not voting:

None

[killerjester]

I had to use a different approach here since no one has flipped scum yet

Spoiler: more boring stuff

=Day1=

1st VE wagon:

Cirno, iBetrayal >>> one scum, 50 pts each

Players that might be distancing:

YankCane151 & Toon Fighter

2nd VE wagon:

Toon Fighter, gbevilchaos, MediocreJPop >>> two scum (different faction), 66 pts each

Players that might be distancing:

YankCane151 & Toon Fighter
Cirno & Toon Fighter

TF wagon:

YankCane151, Cirno, VisceraEyes, Reab >>> two scum (different faction), 50 pts each

Players that might be distancing:

Klazam & Reab
VisceraEyes & Krazy & Toon Fighter

Reab wagon:

Toon Fighter, smargaret, Krazy >>> two scum (different faction), 66 pts each

Players that might be distancing:

VisceraEyes & Toon Fighter

Whiskers wagon:

Klazam, smargaret, Krazy, Reab >>> two scum (different faction), 50 pts each

Players that might be distancing:

Toon Fighter & Reab

=Day 2=

1st CSL wagon:

ViscaraEyes, Reab, Toon Fighter >>> two scum (different faction), 66 pts each

1st TF wagon:

Klazam, Krazy >>> one scum, 50 pts each

Players that might be distancing:

Toon Fighter & Krazy & Klazam

2nd CSL wagon:

ViscaraEyes, Reab, Toon Fighter, smargaret >>> two scum (different faction), 50 pts each

Players that might be distancing:

Toon Fighter & Krazy & Klazam

Reab 282 / 2 instances of distancing
Toon Fighter 248 / 7 instances of distancing
Krazy 232 / 3 instances of distancing
smargret 216 / 2 instances of distancing (2 with TF)
VisceraEyes 166 / 2 instances of distancing (2 with TF)
Cirno 100 / 1 instance of distancing (1 with TF)
Klazam 100 / 3 instances of distancing (2 with TF)

I also checked the isos, and VE stood out slightly more than Klazam in terms of interactions with TF. Today I'd be most comfortable with a Krazy or TF lynch so I can get more flips for a better VCA. But my two hypothetical scumteams are Krazy & Cirno and TF & VE

[killerjester]

I'll also go ahead and claim here, as I've expressed the dangers of have 4 scum in 2 teams hanging around with me at L-2.

I'm VT.

[killerjester]

VOTE: TF

With me! Reab!

[killerjester]

What did you want me to say about their actions?

I can't explain the thought process behind them because it wasn't me playing. And my opinion on them is rather pointless as my role PM clearly states I'm town.

[killerjester]

Defense and distancing are also two different opinions. You can't find a worthable scumpartner for me because there isn't one.

Don't get me wrong, I'm actually glad VE is off your townlist and smarg was added instead. But let's face it, everyone's been pulling strings and trying to force a scum connection between my slot and other players where there isn't one. I feel like everyone is guilting me by association to PI04 and cavjj when I really haven't done all that much, and using that bias to assume things I have done are scum-motivated. Yet all anyone can really find in PI04 and cavjj is individual scummyness. Isn't it possible they coincidentally both came off as scummy townplayers?

I mean really. Krazy thinks I'm partner with TF because I think he's scum but didn't vote him, when really I was just caught up with how scummy Krazy was. And Klazam thinks I'm partner with VE because my predecessors defended VE at some points and distanced him at others. Yet this is completely consistent with town players that just have changing reads, not indecisive scum who can't figure out how the fuck they're going to treat their partner.

PEDIT: WOO TF wagon is a gooooo.

[killerjester]

You can think that. But you'd be wrong.

Don't worry, after the game is over you can all say, "BUT HIS PREDECESSORS WERE SO SCUMMY! I DON'T UNDERSTAND! HE SHOULD'VE BEEN SCUM!"

[killerjester]

I'm liking the wagon on VE so for now I shall

vote: VisceraEyes

Opportunistic

Now that I've read the last few pages (where most of the interesting stuff happens, I can say this:

MJP, your posts seem good, but they are way too big and too frequent. Please concentrate your posts and don't make huge walls. On their actual content, you make a huge case against verydark, repeating yourself a couple of times, but your vote stays pressuring me, who you barely mention in your posts. Clarify this to me, please.

verydark, your post 192 is very interesting. First of all, because you just push MJP very hard because he tried to put VE at L-1. Second, because you seem to be deluded that we are still on RVS. Granted, MJP's asking for a claim wasn't very good, especially when he jumped wagons right afterwards, but your post isn't very good either. Your other posts are nothing special either, as we can see from gbevil's analysis.

gbevil seems to be doing decent posts and decent scumhunting. Nothing big to say here.

Empking seems to be trying hard to defend VE. I wonder if there is a connection between the two.

PI, I repeat the questions other players are asking, what are your opinions on the game and who seems scummiest?

malpascp, I agree that PI's post was bad, but to me it seemed like classic VI, why do you think he deserved your vote, can you elaborate on that?

Things that are wrong here!
- Fencesitting on verydark. I would expect a town player that has a scum read on VE to accuse verydark of the chainsaw defense, and get a scum read on verydark. However, TF simply states his post is "interesting".
- Tries to paint Empking as VE's partner. I can see TF setting up Empking to be killed if VE hangs.
- Generally null opinions on the other players. It feels like he doesn't want to take a firm stance here.

OK, I can post now.

As previous noted, and as I can see now, I still believe that VE can be mafia. Those AtE of his and asking for his own lynch are horrid play in my opinion. I can't believe we let a guy playing that much anti-town live for a single day.

I can understand that people vote me, I'm not being very active, I'm on vacation and usually away from home and with very limited internet access, and that is making me difficult to stay active in this game. The game is also moving extremely slowly and with a lot of replacements, so it's difficult to catch on on the action, since so little is happening (a bit confusing, but I think you can understand).

Empking seems very confident on his reads, and I believe he may be right about something. But I want more explanation from him to how he came up with that list of suspects and why VE is innocent.

Distancing from VE again.

I claim VT

Early claim.

hey. Kudos for the doc.

Mod, when you say Empking died by Fira Maf that means ONLY Fire Maf targeted him or Fire Maf targeted him first?

I think TF might be softclaiming ice mafia here. Besides congratulating the doc, he finds it the flavor for the kill odd. It's possible he (the ice mafia) targeted Empking and is surprised that the flavor gives credit to the fire mafia.

vd, cirno, cavjj, and krazy is scum

Empking's list. The main thing he posted and pushed during D1. Probably the reason why he was killed by the ice mafia. I believe that this list has at least one, maybe two members of that mafia, and they were afraid that Emp was going to get to them.

He posted the list fairly early in the game and stayed with it during all of D1. He may have gotten vd (whiskers) wrong, but the others could be right. I just ISO'd cavjj and he seems likely scum, jumping on Whiskers wagon and RV Xanatos out of the blue in the middle of the game. Now killerjester replaced him and we need to see how he turns out.

I will ISO the other two and be right back.

If I'm right, and TF is ice mafia, then now we know why he killed Empking. It's to say, "The mafia probably killed him cause he was right!" and set up lynches from Empking's pool.

On ISO'ing Krazy, it seems to me that he always jumps on wagons and tries to fake scumhunting. He jumps on the VE wagon when it's almost dead, and tries to ride it during most of D1. When it looks like there are other possible wagons, he immediately jumps to L-2 Reab and after that to the very strong Whiskers wagon, riding it to the mislynch. Now, on D2, he just hops onto my wagon on the beginning of the day and ignores almost everything that happened up to that point (including his VE suspicion). He doesn't seem to actually scumhunt, just to be trying to fake it. Also, he protects cavjj when he states his suspicions, which could indicate a scum team's works.

vote: Krazy

Cirno seems to be a better player than Krazy, and playing more town, he gets on VE wagon but at a better time than Krazy, and he votes Xanatos for the cavjj's shenanigans. He doesn't change wagons again during D1, and in D2 he gets back onto Xanatos for what happened with my 'congrats, doc!' post. He seems to be trying to scumhunt more, but I don't see any real results during D1, and D2 is going good so far. I sense a possible Xanatos - Cirno scum team, with Cirno bussing, but I don't think it's likely.

This is honestly the first genuine scumhunting I've seen him do all game. This adds credence to my idea that TF and Krazy are not partners.

If Krazy is scum, I think CSL or kj can be in his scumteam

Also genuine, yet selective, scumhunting. He wants to kill Krazy and then look for Krazy's partner.

CSL is getting more and more scum-points in my book. Randomly changing votes, crappy posts, repeatedly stating Krazy as town. I'd prefer to see (him~? her?) lynched and then go to Krazy, as I see CSL as more likely scum at the moment.

unvote, vote: CSL

OPPORTUNISTIC, does not match up with the scumhunting he's done on Krazy

Hey. I still defend that kj, Krazy, or VE are prob mafia. I don't have much time now, prob tomorrow will make better post. Will analyse D2 and D3 and try and find scum there. For now, though, I will not vote.

Oh good, I was almost worried he forgot about distancing VE.

[killerjester]

@Krazy in order:

Yes.
I did my own scumhunting, you were at the tip top of my list. I was by no means ignoring TF.
I don't see it as problematic that scum is helping the town to kill rival scum. If anything, I find it helpful. All that it suggests is the lynches TF pushed from D2 onward were not likely to be his scum partners.
TF had very legitimate suspicions for voting you.

[killerjester]

Seriously? What the hell!

Krazy: You're totally defending TF! SCUMZZZZ!
Me: No, I've said he's scum. I want him dead, too.

TF: I really can't tell if you think I'm scum with VE.

But my two hypothetical scumteams are Krazy & Cirno and

TF & VE

ITT: Scums skim all my posts, and don't pay attention to my reads on the players this game.

[killerjester]

It's too bad you have no case, scum.

It's almost like you think last minute L-1 votes and AtE's will win you the game.

[killerjester]

Are you serious?

[killerjester]

No really, if he is town then I'm truly surprise.

I-ain't-even-scum.jpg

[killerjester]

Guys...

guys

Guys.

Guys listen.

I have the best ide

guys listen

I have the best idea ever

guys

I've put a TARGET

guys

target

I've put a TARGET
guys listen here

I've put a TARGET... on MYSELF.

The scum won't be able to resist jumping at me. That's how we can win.

[killerjester]

And VOTE: killerjester

They'll come

[killerjester]

Told ya they couldn't resist. That was easy.

UNVOTE:

So that his rival scumteam won't try to quickhammer me. Out of curiosity, who did DavidX protect?

[killerjester]

In the same post you FoS'd me in, you were worried about TF quick-hammering me. I don't consider that a particularly strong FoS.

You're trying to lynch me now because I'm the easy target, and you want the day over as soon as possible, instead of waiting for further input.

[killerjester]

Maybe I was wrong about VE. Maybe he isn't scum o.o Which means DavidX is the doc, and everyone else is scum. That certainly follows with the idea that Reab wanted to quicklynch me, his supposed partner, Klazam, is also setting up my lynch, and Krazy and Cirno will no doubt swoop in for the hammer, given the opportunity.

It kinda sucks that we need 4 to lynch though. So which scumgroup wants to start killing off their rivals?

[killerjester]

Or, or wait. Can we get everyone to agree to DavidX leading the lynch? I like this idea a lot.

[killerjester]

Quite. What's your opinion of Reab?

[killerjester]

Told ya the scum would jump at me

I bet Krazy's team killed smarg for this exact play right here, "Oh look smarg died, so KJ is scum!"

[killerjester]

You know what's funnier than 3 mislynches in a row?

4.

[killerjester]

Who knows though, when I die it'll be pretty obvious VE is the last VT and at least the scum would have a pretty interesting 2-2-2 prisoner's dilemma. Maybe the town can still win even if I am lynched.

[killerjester]

I was going moreso for I-told-you-so after the game's over than general convincingness now, actually.

[killerjester]

Well it's pretty rightly put. Reab and Krazy have shown general disregard for the opinion of our confirmed Doc, they're only interested in getting the day over as quickly as possible. And if their partners both vote for me then I'm already lynched. At this point I find it more useful to fill their heads with WIFOM to put us in a better position to come out on top from the 2-2-2 dilemma. DavidX will clearly be protecting VE if I flip town, so the scum have two situations in the 2-2-2.

They can try to kill DavidX, but in doing so they risk that their Rivals won't target DavidX. And the only smart move when not targetting DavidX is to target rival scum. I expect them to kill each other and the town will probably come out on top for D5 with 2-1-1.

I mean sure it'd be great if I wasn't lynched. But let's be realistic here.

[killerjester]

Your strong use of "unnecessary" quotation marks in your "post" and your littering of CAPS is why you're wrong.

There's nothing to suggest I would have known Krazy would bring up the point about Smarg. My gambit to trap scum was a genuine gambit to trap scum. And it worked. I mean, have you even looked at Reab? He fell face-fucking-first into my gambit. You

may

have a

semi-decent

point if I was clawing at Krazy's throat and trying to get him lynched. But the evidence here really doesn't support your premise.

Also
VOTE: Reab

[killerjester]

Umm, what just happened.

[killerjester]

Do you SEE what I'm talking about with Reab here?

I'm also calling shenanigans on how he's trying to play-it-cool from my gambit.

[killerjester]

I mean don't get me wrong, I'm not terribly upset that you're not trying to mislynch me anymore. But really?

Nevertheless, Krazy sees the opportunity to vote kj to create a fast wagon, with the reason that smargaret died at night.
I mean, which mafia member would be so dumb to kill the guy at night that called him out the dayphase ago. That would be plain stupid and obvious like hell, hence i don't expect it on these forums.

Unvote Killerjester

| Reason: probably ice mafia, but krazy is way scummier. Possible Scummate: Cirno (for opening a counterwagon on me after seeing 1 townie says "reab is scum")

"You're you arn't likely to be the scum that killed Smarg, but you're still slightly scummy, BUT I'm unvoting you, BUTTT I'm keeping you on my backburner so when I decide to lynch you later it still looks legit. Also I think Krazy is scum but I'm not voting him."

WISH

WASH

SCUM

FOUND

He also seems wayyy too confident in his selective scumhunting fitting to selective teams of mafia. Normal town doesn't really care which scum is which, just that we lynch scum. For instance, I may think you're the fire mafia (which might explain why you're so confident I didn't kill smarg) but I'm not going to bash my head into the wall if you're lynched and flip ice scum.

[killerjester]

Hi Kc, you need to work a bit on that votecount

4 to lynch and smarg's vote is no longer in play.

D'OH

[killerjester]

So, Reab was your scumpartner Klazam? Yeah, take out the doctor for us, and I'll just shoot you.

[killerjester]

I'll thank you for the victory but I see no reason to share the win if we can just win.

[killerjester]

Nah he should protect me, afterall I'm not shooting him.

[killerjester]

There's no way DavidX is saving you.

[killerjester]

I'm still shooting you. Because if I don't odds are you're going to kill me anyways and try to get Cirno lynched for your win.

[killerjester]

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!

NO NO NO THAT WAS MY GAMBIT. I WAS TRYING TO GET YOU AND KRAZY/CIRNO TO BOTH SHOOT ME.

[killerjester]

Klazam said he was going to shoot the doctor, I HAD to gambit

At least we all agree Cirno is scum. And I still think Krazy is his most-likely partner. It's between VE and Klazam for Reab's partner.

[killerjester]

Regardless, Reab's real partner needs to shoot Cirno.

[killerjester]

Well, he didn't deny being mafia

[killerjester]

Yeah I wanted scum to shoot Cirno. I'm not on a team with Cirno. Because I'm not a scum.

ALthough KJ's interactions with VE are weird, I think it's a one-sided weird, mostly on the side of KJ. VE has explained his reads this game (after the AtE d1), unlike KJ who went full swing on TF pretty much out of nowhere, which was, to use his favorite word, sheer opportunism. Between the two, VE could just be mistaken, but KJ is certainly scum. The Smarg kill only seals the deal. I think the self-vote nonsense is really just to distract from the nightkill.

Vote KJ

Do you HONESTLY believe this is the post of a scum that I'm PARTNERS with? He opportunistically votes ME after Reab tries to lynch me. I mean, if it isn't obvious that I'm not scum by the sheer amount of players that have tried to get me lynched when other possibilities were open then I really don't know how to help you. Reab tried to lynch me, he flipped scum. VE tried to lynch me (though admittedly he seems townish). Krazy also tried to lynch me yesterday

instead of attacking Reab

.

My gambit was frustrating you into thinking that you were playing a losing strategy so that you'd shoot me instead of the doc. I think it was pretty damn clear I was trying to provoke you. If I had been scum that was planning on betraying you, do you really think I would have spelled it out for you in thread, or kept to myself so that I could assure victory?

I'm still completely confident Krazy and Cirno are partners together, and I'd be comfortable with either of them getting lynched. If you're so cock-sure that Krazy is my partner, then at the very least we all agree he's scum so I'd like to see him hanged.

[killerjester]

And hooolllllllyyyyyy shit VE.

If I was Reab's REAL partner, why the FUCK would I have CC'd Klazam?

[killerjester]

Obviously, don't reply to my message. We do not want to let DX know who to protect.

Yeah no. We can already see if you were scum you would've stayed silent.

I have no idea what happened last night. Well I mean obviously there was no kill so both teams tried to kill the same person. But beyond that I got nothing, doesn't really matter either.

[killerjester]

KJ, I want to know your opinion on this reaction to my gambit.

Hmm, honestly it didn't strike me as odd the first time I read it. However your #1000 and #1002 seem pretty sincere in the sense that you actually were gambitting. And if you're the other VT that means VE is Reab's partner. I need to reread and ask some questions.

I want to know why you(KJ) was telling reab's real scummate to shoot Cirno, though.

Because I think he's scum and I wanted him dead. Still do.

VE, which of the Krazy/Cirno pair do you think is scum, if not both?
Klazam, same question.

PEDIT: Lol Klazam has a point. VE needs to unvote Klazam so we don't provoke a quickhammer.

[killerjester]

PPEDIT: Wait. No. It's 4 to lynch.

[killerjester]

If we lynch reab's partner (Fire maf), Town loses to the ice mafia right away.

Yeah actually this makes sense. Unless my reads change significantly, I'm NOT lynching outside of Krazy/Cirno.

[killerjester]

VE, find who you think are the ice scumteam. We're looking to lynch one of them today.

[killerjester]

Hmm...

Krazy and VE aren't the ice scumteam. There's no way iceKrazy would tell us to ignore the doc save and lynch iceVE anyway.

Here's why we should lynch Cirno today.

>Reab's real partner needs to shoot Cirno.

>Implying mafia has the testicular fortitude to come at me during the night
>Implying that if they did come at me I wouldn't spank them until their buttocks come to a blush
>Implying I wouldn't force them to pose for humiliating photos involving fresh produce under threat of another spanking
>Implying I wouldn't send those photos to their unrequited loves and underworld buddies
>Implying their unrequited loves wouldn't post the pictures on facebook and joke with their friends about how pathetic the mafia in the photos are
>Implying the mafia wouldn't be laughed out of the underworld
>Implying the wouldn't spend their remaining days as humble shoe salesmen without aspirations or dreams, unable to ever live down the shame of it all

Y'all don't know who you are dealing with. Come at me, maf.

There's just

NO

way he made this post if he was Reab's partner.

[killerjester]

That level of humor seemed to come from a natural reaction when I directed Reab's partner to shoot Cirno.

He writes off the entire thing as a joke but you can see how he thinks there

is

a possibility of Reab's partner shooting him, and uses #983 to convince the fire Partner otherwise. I believe if he was Reab's partner, he wouldn't have had the same reaction because obviously he wouldn't be worried about shooting himself. Even if you don't buy into Krazy's huge wallpost (yeah, I don't so sue me) I think Cirno is truly the best target for today.

[killerjester]

Nah your case is pretty scummy. From the part where you said JPop put VE at L-1 (she didn't), to leaving out the parts where VE defends not only JPop, but also Reab pretty hard in the first day. You also say the ice scum presumably got the idea of no-killing after CSL died but the night after his lynch there was a cross kill, indicating the ice scum did in fact submit a kill. His response to your case was fairly decent but you ignore it and vote him anyway.

VOTE: Cirno

The problem is no one was directing the ice mafia to kill him. I was directing the fire mafia to kill him. If he was fire mafia he probably wouldn't have been worried at all. He probably would've said nothing and hoped the ice mafia forgot about him.

To everyone Not-Krazy, VE doesn't make much sense as a partner with Krazy or Klazam, so I guess if he even was ice scum his partner would have to be Cirno. So why is lynching Cirno the safer choice? Because..

A. I've suggested why Cirno is not likely to be Reab's partner. He's most likely not fire mafia
B. Krazy is scummily pushing the VE wagon over Cirno, this

could

suggest a Krazy/Cirno scumteam that wants VE dead to win the game here as opposed to having to bus each other and take their chances in endgame
C. You don't have to outright agree with me on Point B, just understand it's a possibility. But whichever ice-team you see as more likely, VE/Cirno or Krazy/Cirno I think the common denominator is pretty obvious here

[killerjester]

I'm starting to wonder if I was mistaken on a VE/Klazam or VE/Cirno scumteam and we're not looking at VE/KJ going for a lynch on fire mafia in Cirno. Going to have to think about these developments.

That's a mighty strong chainsaw you're wielding there.

And it contradicts some main points in your case. A VE/KJ ice-team would NOT have seen much value in no-killing and simply

hoping

that DX saves VE. He also was not "dancing around" with a read on me. In fact, he went from a townread on me to voting me to the death (L-1 at the time). There's no reason for that when Cirno opened up a perfectly good wagon on Reab.

WOAH.

Just noticed something. VE/Cirno is unlikely. They would've hammered me for sure back on D4. VE makes absolutely no sense as being on a scumteam with anyone anymore. I hope everyone can see Krazy's scummily mixing up his reads to attack me when I'm completely right about lynching Cirno today.

[killerjester]

VE/Klazam doesn't make much sense. Even if VE/Cirno isn't impossible, Cirno is the best lynch for today.

VE/KJ doesn't simply "complicate" your case. It's not simply "unlikely". There's honestly no reason why ANY ice team with me on it would think that no-killing is the best strategy. If you even want to think about selling the idea of me being ice mafia, then you'd have to say my "partner" is either Klazam aka LOLNO or Cirno, making Cirno STILL the best lynch for today.

You just don't wanna accept it cos he's your ice partner.

[killerjester]

Cirno-Krazy is the only ice scum pairing that makes sense here.

*slow clap rising into a standing ovation*

Now all we need is VE's support and DavidX's consent to hammer and our 4 votes will overrule their team of 2.

[killerjester]

Hmm, not sure whether it's fire maf siding with the ice maf here

LOL DID YOU REALLY JUST SUGGEST THIS

The last VT wants to lynch ice. Even the fire mafia wants to lynch the ice scum today.

Anyway let's pretend you're fire mafia. Or, better yet, let's say for all intensive purposes that you're the other VT. Why are you

so

damn convinced Cirno is not ice scum?

Your entire KJ/VE case falls apart unless you honestly believe VE assumed that DavidX would save just him, as he openly stated that I was not going to be saved at all. In the absence of that, the ice mafia targeted VE that night ergo VE is not ice mafia.

[killerjester]

So... a no-kill KJ/VE team makes sense because it's unlikely.

Using the same logic it'd make sense for me to win the lottery today.

[killerjester]

I think we can all see how senseless your case is now.

Klazam and DX, is there anything else I can clear up? I feel like I've exhausted this back-and-forth and I'm ready for your input.

[killerjester]

What's scummy is you defending Cirno so hard as to chainsaw me. There's no way you can be that confident. What's even more alarming is your main reasoning to defend him is that the unlikely KJ/VE possibility is attacking Cirno.

I'm "tunneling" because at this point it's obvious to me. I'm not scum, DavidX isn't scum, VE seems all too eager to lynch Cirno, you're defending him hard, Klazam is being ever-so-cautious and Cirno himself is lurking.

So I took the premise, "Maybe Cirno isn't ice scum. Who's the ice team in this case?" It can't be Krazy/Klazam, as they surely would've hammered by this point. Both players have had ample opportunity. I think VE/Krazy is unlikely because of the severe contrast in agenda today. And VE/Klazam didn't make much sense either, because I feel VE came out too strong at the beginning of D5 attacking Klazam. There's also some WIFOM I sprinkled into the equation here such as, "A VE/Klazam ice team didn't have much incentive to kill Empking."

After I cleared the former premise as false in my mind, it's all really quite simple. Cirno must be ice scum because there isn't a valid pairing that doesn't include him. His partner probably isn't VE, as I feel VE abandoned the Klazam lynch rather easily and jumped towards Cirno instead. Between Krazy and Klazam, Krazy makes perfect sense as Cirno's partner. He has for the entire game. From the light distancing D1, to the killing of Empking after he called their scumteam early on in the game, to the avoidance of each other in - I kid you not - every single vote count in the game, and finally to this incredibly contrived defense on Cirno. Also Klazam is kind of.. too skirtish to be Cirno's partner.

Here's how I paint the rest of the roles and how it makes sense with each player's agenda today.

- Cirno is ice scum and has completely flaked site-wide. Doesn't really have an agenda I suppose.
- Krazy is ice partner, he's defending Cirno really hard for relatively weak reasons. It had the feel of scum trying to prevent his partner from being lynched when victory is

oh-so-damn-close

, all he had to do was to speak up about how the lack of N3 ice kill doesn't 100% clear VE from being ice. And say it enough times to make it true (as if that would make it any more likely)
- VE is fire scum, and wants to get the day over as quickly as possible with an ice lynch.
- Klazam is legitimately cautious, and doesn't know where to place his trust. He reads completely as a townie that doesn't want to make the wrong decision.
- DavidX is watching from afar on his confirmed-town stool, trying to read the players so he knows who to lynch and who to put his next doc save on.

At least that's how my logic went. You can still call me tunneling town (aww what's wrong? too scared to outright call me scum?), but I think I've expressed why I can be so confident that Cirno is the best lynch today.

[killerjester]

At this point in the game it really doesn't matter. We aren't lynching the fire scum today and I'm sure I'll be able to explain better tomorrow anyway.

[killerjester]

So we lynching Cirno or what?

[killerjester]

I'm really not seeing where Cirno cares about not getting lynched.

[killerjester]

Why are you looking to David instead of Cirno?

[killerjester]

That doesn't make him deus ex machina.

If you were wondering about Cirno's alignment, I feel you would've looked towards Cirno's input. If you - for some reason - weren't wondering about Cirno's alignment, I feel you'd look to David to bail you out.

[killerjester]

Would it kill you to think for yourself?

While his opinion and vote matter, I trust my own ability to be more accurate.

Especially

because I have something he doesn't, the info from my Role PM. I know for a fact the ice team is in Krazy/Cirno/VE/Klazam. So statistically speaking, I have a better shot at being right than he does. I really would've expected the other VT to have the same mindset. Sure we need David's vote to lynch ice scum, but we need mine too. And generally everyone's vote if the ice scum aren't feeling particularly buss-y.

David's opinion matters as an opinion, but I mostly see him as someone who can't be scum rather than my-God-that-will-catch-all-the-scum-for-me. I have instinct for that.

[killerjester]

Yea it wouldn't really matter to me.

[killerjester]

I've pushed a Krazy wagon for half of the fucking game.. "OH BUT KJ! YOU TOTALLY GOT HIM TO L-4 ONCE! WHY WOULD YOU ABANDON A STRATEGY THAT'S WORKED OH SO WELL!"

I am so close to just being done with this game. I encouraged you to vote Cirno because I fucking think he's ice scum and, besides CSL, no one else seems to agree that Krazy is scum. I'd do the same damn thing if you wanted to vote Krazy, and the Mafia Gods know you'd suggest a KJ/Cirno ice team if I did that. But if you want to lynch Krazy instead, just say the words and I'd happily join you.

[killerjester]

Done.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Krazy

Moral of the story is don't try to say I'm opposed to the wagon of someone I've openly called scum all game long.

[killerjester]

Again, why are we pretending it's likely the KJ/VE "ice team" no killed on the night David saved VE when we already know he wasn't going to doc me?

[killerjester]

Klazam if you seriously think the team is Krazy/KJ can you just trustmeonthis and vote Krazy? I'll thank you after the game is over.

[killerjester]

But I'm not even really willing to rule out killerjester at this point, even though the nightkill makes it the least appealing of the three scenarios, and also I sort of see him as fire maf, but generally I just have no idea what to make of that slot because I'm starting to just find him irritating one way or the other and no longer really interested in sorting out whether he's town, fire maf, or ice maf. If he's town, we pretty much lost, but if he's fire maf, I have no idea why he's playing along with VE and Klazam/Cirno, and so that sort of leads Ice Maf as a nice possibility mostly based on the way he actively defends VE. But since I generally just have no idea what to make of this slot anymore, I'd rather not lynch it today.

Okay this makes me really not want to lynch Krazy...

UNVOTE:

Klazam, would you be fine with lynching Cirno instead of Krazy?

[killerjester]

The middle sentence. And the bit about finding me irritating. I can totally see where he's coming from because I've been an apathetic dick towards him for quite a few pages now.

[killerjester]

Why?

[killerjester]

Hmm alright that makes sense.

Now I'd like David's input. Krazy or Cirno or does he have an option C?

[killerjester]

What? You don't have any questions for me at all David?

Wow. I feel pretty damn useless.. =/

[killerjester]

Nah they both posted in #1074 and #1077 after VE and myself both voted for you.

It's generally considered bad form to not hammer at the first opportunity if you're scum. Otherwise you're just toying with Townies who have already lost.

[killerjester]

Are you scared of my case such that you need to downplay it? And you're saying you

can

be partners with Reab, and as such yesterday you jumped on his wagon over KJ?

Reminder: He "voted me... to the death"

[killerjester]

Reason why?

for a bus on his partner

Oh look, answered your own question. Reab was clearly going down after that terribad unvote on me, and I really don't have an issue with VE bussing Reab.

[killerjester]

It was a sinking ship. VE simply got off. It certainly makes more sense than the part where you suggested Cirno could be fire mafia and he STARTED the Reab wagon.

[killerjester]

I still don't see where you get off saying that Cirno could have been distancing for voting Reab over me, but VE can't possibly be Reab's partner for the same reasons.

[killerjester]

Yes they are. Cirno chose to vote Reab (new wagon) over me (could've put me at L-1). This is a LOT more problematic than VE seeing that his vote on my wagon is losing steam, while Reab's is picking up. And sees it as last-opportunity to bus.

Also

It would be very suspicious for Cirno to turn around and unvote [Reab] when he's been on him the entire game

This is just silly. I don't see where Cirno has been on Reab (which I'm assuming is who you meant) the entire game. In fact, D4 in the post he votes Reab is really the first time he made an opinion about him.

[killerjester]

That still doesn't change how he could've interpreted the events to his pleasing, and could've put me at L-1 instead of starting a new wagon on his "partner" - of all people! Without any previous opinion of Reab from pre-D4 I really don't see him turning around to get his partner lynched. And I really don't see how you do.

[killerjester]

The possibility of wagons catching on is the primary reason why scum don't start wagons on buddies.

And 9 days is just over one week. So don't go CAPS LOCK on WEEKS like it's multiple weeks. Especially when 7 of those 9 days were night time.

[killerjester]

I still I wouldn't've expected scum to bus yesterday unless their partner was as-good-as-dead. Only VE and Klazam fit that bill.

[killerjester]

Yea this situation is completely different. There are two scum teams so balance of power comes into play.

And I'm not getting why you're posting your scum meta. Are you admitting to being Reab's fire scumbuddy?

[killerjester]

I think you're missing the point.

KJ: "Cirno isn't fire scum because I don't think he'd bus his buddy."
Cirno: "Nah, I'd totally do that. I can still be Reab's buddy."

If you aren't outright claiming fire scum then I can only see your motivation coming from an ice scum who subtly hopes this will add to the evidence of Why-you-guys-shouldn't-listen-to-KJ-by-lynching-me. I mean, I'm sure we've all had to provide examples of our scum meta before. But you did it unprovoked.

[killerjester]

Cirno, why do you think Krazy is the fire scum?

[killerjester]

Cirno, did you ever speculate on the no-kill night where David said he protected VE?

[killerjester]

I'm not. Fucking. Ice.

I reacted to your gambit to keep the doctor alive.

Why are you throwing logic out the window?

[killerjester]

That doesn't. What even.

David isn't putting pressure on VE.

I'm willing to rule out Krazy/VE though. Where does that leave us?

[killerjester]

I didn't know which scum you were, but I thought claiming as not-Reab's-partner would make me seem more like the powerful bully who does whatever he wants to hope that you would shoot me out of hate/spite.

And about my gambitting meta. Yea, I like to gambit a lot. And I can link you to games that I've gambitted in, http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =2&t=18910 in this one I lied about a read to coax scum into killing Beck, my "town read", so that I could enter LyLo with saulres alive and better chances of winning. We just won that, by the way. I was VT. But take it with an ounce of.. whatever, because I don't have scum meta on this site yet

Drench has an ongoing minitheme that I [REDACTED] in, and I won't really discuss it at length since that's illegal but you can go look for yourself. I've already flipped in that game.

I don't know which game VE is talking about, though. I'm sure I was town in it because, again, I've had one game as a serial killer and no games as scum.

[killerjester]

Well if you were ice scum and laughing at me then I would've caught an ice scum, now wouldn't I?

And I really didn't answer anything VE had knowledge of.

[killerjester]

So Klazam. What you're saying is that I, as ice scum, claimed ice scum?

Honestly, even if you

do

think I'm scum, it makes more sense for me to be fire scum gambitting, claiming ice and acting like an idiot town gambitting to make sure I'm not shot by the real ice.

Why you reached the conclusion that I'm ice is beyond me.

[killerjester]

Wait. Are you

actually

fire? That would sorta make a lot of sense.

[killerjester]

Yeah, I'm saying that you fell for my gambit and incidentally claimed ice scum.

Are you claiming fire scum? On second thought, why the hell would you claim ice in that situation?

Sadly, no. I'm not fire. Why do you think that if i was, things would make sense?

1. Waitaminute. #943 didn't feel like you were gambitting to catch scum. What were you doing there?

2. I'm not fire scum. The first line of #1159 is why I would claim not-Reab's-partner. To presumably anger you into shooting me instead of David.

3. SO many things would make sense. It would mean your gambit wasn't a gambit at all, and you really did want to shoot David. You would've backed down after my intent to night-kill you, claiming it was a gambit and hoping that I believe you. Your skepticism about who is ice mafia today definitely seems to come from someone who isn't ice. Aaaand you didn't consider the possibility I was fire scum because

you

are the fire scum.

I think I remember why #943 felt like it came from the perspective of Reab's partner. You weren't worried about your partner getting shot. I believe if you were the ice you would've directed Reab's partner to shoot David while you shoot a random player. This whole game makes so much sense when Klazam isn't ice scum. Sooooo I'm guessing he probably isn't.

Can we lynch Krazy or Cirno now?

[killerjester]

My two cents is Cirno-VE would've hammered me D4. There really wasn't a need for Cirno to turn the wagon around and attack Reab instead.

But Cirno still makes a good lynch today. Him or Krazy.

[killerjester]

Is it later yet?

[killerjester]

I'll sheep a Krazy/Cirno wagon by deadline, whichever one looks most-likely.

Leaning towards Cirno. He seems to be selectively reading.

[killerjester]

The point is I'm killerjester and I ask questions I already know the answer to. Because sometimes scum slip up, and people catch these things.

Answer the question. And if you haven't mentioned it, tell me why KJ/VE is still likely after the doc protect on VE.

[killerjester]

>ignore KJ's meta
>ignore KJ's stated reason
>pretend there is another reason

...aiight..but I guess I've done that with you so I'll let it slide

The biggest argument against KJ/VE is that David prevented the ice kill Night 3 by protecting VE. Naturally, VE can't shoot himself. So if you want to believe in a KJ/VE team you have to assume the team no-killed N3. And David had already made it openly clear that he was not saving me with the doc save.

Conclusion 1! I think it's fairly likely the KJ/VE team, knowing that David would not protect KJ, would still no-kill hoping for a save on VE that would only clear him from being ice-scum.
Conclusion 2! The above doesn't seem likely at all, so KJ/VE probably aren't a scumteam.

Tell me why conclusion 1 is fairly likely in your mind.

[killerjester]

Yea I'm not selectively reading.

[killerjester]

Well can we lynch Cirno then? I didn't really follow your logic all that well but you definitely reached the scum-Cirno boat with me. I mean you go and ignore parts where I was pleading for the fire scum to shoot Cirno for a portion of the game. But as long as I do have you here I'd gladly vote Cirno with you.

[killerjester]

VOTE: Cirno

WITH ME, VE!! Unless you're rethinking the KJ/Cirno scumteam.

[killerjester]

Klazam, would you consider voting Cirno?
VE, would you consider voting Krazy?

One of you needs to give way a little. If Krazy/Cirno aren't going to bus each other we need all of our votes to lynch them (and David too!)

[killerjester]

Eh I'm actually fire. I no killed last night because I expected you guys to shoot David and I really didn't want to give too much power to either ice or the town since Reab was already lynched. Your guess is as good as any as to why he saved me. This doesn't really change anything though. Go ahead and shoot David tonight, and I'll no-kill.

[killerjester]

DONT MIND ME, JUST BEING RIGHT ABOUT KRAZY AND CIRNO FOR THE ENTIRE GAME

[killerjester]

Typing up #888 was the most fun I had in this game. The fakeclaim with Klazam probably comes next.