Open 544: Tit for Tat (Game Over)

[Titus]

Okie dokie. I'm here. Time to read.

[Titus]

Ok I just saw the time till deadline.

Can someone catch me up for all the reasons for the wagons?

VOTE: unvote

I think I get the whole Stardate deal (but I'm on page 5ish) so I'm going to take off this vote.

[Titus]

Picard, personality isn't a meta argument.

A meta argument is that someone does this as town/scum therefore this person must be town/scum.

Saying that a playstyle isn't unnatural doesn't say anything about alignment. It just says that's the player's playstyle.

[Titus]

@Captain Picard & Ankamius any reads to help the town win ?

if we analyze this scenario

Malakittens, Saki, Ibarra, MTD, Loranthaceae, Zekrom25, No Stone Unturned, Hopkirk, Captain Picard, ( town )

however

if Tlachta C ( turned up to be scum which other can we analyze as scum ) ?

also what's your opinions of Lorantheceae ?

Pedit: Saki, Mala and possibly Hopkirk (probably not) and Ibarra may be null/town or null/scum

all that are participating

however lets begin with you

@Ankamius what is your opinion of Lorantheceae ?

this needs a re-read

Zekrom needs to die.

VOTE: Zekrom

[Titus]

Why not?

[Titus]

How can you get a good gutread from flames/Zekrom?

Saki, glad to see you again. I will need a good reaction test for you.

[Titus]

MTD, he might be a good vig target, but with deadline looming, no consensus on anyone but the vig target, we lynch the vig target and free the vig.

Why is Saki scum Ftr?

[Titus]

We're not. There's your answer.

[Titus]

CP, we have about 50 million words to exchange about your play these last couple pages. It's making me go what the fuck.

[Titus]

Read post 2, and you should see why for about half of them.

[Titus]

I agree CP. That is why Zekrom needs to die. RNG scum, no content no anything. I've provided more content and I just GOT here.

[Titus]

I don't understand the Ibarra scumread.

You shouldn't be understanding any of it but agreement doesn't mean understanding.

[Titus]

CP, are you going to ignore the fact I just called your play insane though regarding the last two pages (but for that last post about RNG scum, I agree with that)?

[Titus]

You have literally no information, we have no protective role and scum are likely to kill you because they get a jailkeeper and that helps us HOW?

[Titus]

AS for Ank and Zed, you could I dunno... suggest vigging whichever one got lynched...

[Titus]

**didn't get lynched... obviously you don't vig the dead guy

[Titus]

Ok, I want reads on Picard. Picard was doing obvcrumb and now he just flat out claims. I'd say he's setting up a fakeclaim normally but the only way scum get a jailkeeper is if the town one dies. Part of me thinks Picard is scum just begging for a CC at this point. If you agree with this and you are the jailkeeper, do not CC.

[Titus]

T, link me to your towncase on Picard? I evidently need to see that case because I know myself and I do tunnel hard when I get a suspect, so I'd like to stop myself if there's evidence for Picardtown.

[Titus]

Also, if you think Mala is scum with Z, then why not test your theory by voting the obvscum?

[Titus]

the town need to find where the mafia slip-up

If the mafia slipped up, you should tell us where. Give content something....oh wait that requires buddy outing. Btw, I am not scum.

Saki, I am not scum.

[Titus]

@Loran, I said that we should lynch the guy with the near universal scumread and vig Anikus due to deadline.

PbPA is post by post analysis, not point by point.

[Titus]

Got a hell of a lot of work to do. This game takes priority cuz deadline but do not expect me to be here constantly.

[Titus]

Why does afraid to die mean scum? I don't see how accusing someone of having a bad push means afraid to doe.

What's the difference between the two lynch and shoot otions, other than one being saved if he's the vig?

[Titus]

@T, Meta tell, ick. Meta is not as important as what people say about it. Burn an alt = not scum regardless of play, you will be burned as scum take advantage, especially scum that do not buy meta. I just burned the handwritten notes tell.


@Z, Getting a lynch off on a universal scumread is good. I have said it two or three times. Alarm bells are going off now, please. Desperation bells.

[Titus]

@Z, Assuming a universal scumread is town, that player must be lynched before lylo. Universal scumreads do not get killed by scum. They are frequently mislynched in lylo.

@T, assuming you statements are true, that indicates a survival mindset, not always scummy. Many people have survivalistic instinct. I am rather famous or infamous for my lack of one.

Even so, that doesn't answer why a vig shot is insufficient. Lynch or vig, dead is dead.

[Titus]

Yes, but Ank here seems noy to be a universal scumread. Ank may well be the vig, backup rolecop etc as all justify a survivalistic mindset. Obviously Ank won't shoot himself if he is the vig. It seems you do not trust the vig to make the right call, which suggests the case is weak and I should review whether Ank is worthy of a lynch.

[Titus]

Or a vig.

[Titus]

Loran, what beyond a survivalistic mindset do you think makes Ibarra scummy? I haven't seen much on him being scummy in my readthrouh.

[Titus]

Loran, your question assumes that Ibarra is scum. I will look back at that during nightfall. If you want me to look sooner, please link me.

I do not believe Flames is a mislynch. So if Ibarra is scum, he's bussing bc I think Flames and Z are scum.

[Titus]

Ok, the only thing I can see from Mala's ISO just eyeballing it is that T is likely town. CP suspected Mala, he wound up dead. Mala winds up dead. T started the suspicion. So I don't see myself voting for T today.

[Titus]

T is Tlacha from my prior post.

I wasn't looking through Tla's posts, I looked at Mala's to see who was a threat.

[Titus]

Loran, you've got a long road to hoe to convince me Tla is scum bussing Ank. Tla was the only other person Mala was afraid of other than CP, so this scenario makes a fair amount of sense like this.

Saki, why do you assume the vig was hunting lurkers?Mala was doing a crappy whiteknight that could be seen from a mile away as scummy.

Also, you seem really defensive over lack of content.

[Titus]

1) The very post you quoted. No one should townread a slot tgat randomly throws out, town/scum. There was no content there at all. Z could not live to lylo can scum want mislynch bait around in lylo. The very post you quoted and Mala's response of just gut indicate that.

2) Passed for vigbait? Show me where?

3) Yeah, let me provide more content is the definition of survivalistic posting and defensive due to lack of content.

VOTE: Saki

[Titus]

You're asking me questions and ignoring the responses, as if you are trying to bait me into a tunnel. Yet, that's not productive for either alignment.

Then again, this shuts off content which you just said was your goal. Yeah, I am fine with my vote here.

[Titus]

Ok, Saki needs to die.

[Titus]

Loran, obey stencil? As for my reasoning, it is partially incomplete because it is anti-town to finish it. That is probably why it looks bad. There is just no way to flesh out my reasoning. I will try again to dance around the conclusion though later.

Why are you so hyper to link Tla with Ank? I don't see the value in looking for scumbuddies intentionally until a flip.

[Titus]

Please stop. I hated biology in school. You are trying more for antropology or social psychology. Evolutionary biology/psychology takes place over many games. Individuals cannot change playstyles on a dime.

Tldr, a player this game likely has antlers or doesn't who gives a shit about playstyle. Bring it to reality.


On a simpler note, I now have three scum reads (Loran, Saki, and Ank) and two possible scum, so at least one must be wrong.

Loran, answer my questions.

Tla, why isn't Saki scum? Omg, is that a scum slip talking about bussing Anka.

[Titus]

I looked at Mala's ISO and didn't see much interaction with Saki. It was a very defensive ISO. How did you reach that conclusion?

Why is Ibarra scum?

Why are you asking me to vote Anka, when you aren't voting him yourself?

@Tla, I know very intelligent gameplay. I know a fake scumslip when I see one. You're trying to test me. The thing is I know what you did last summer.

[Titus]

@lol, definitely not an ika alt. Ika and I have a similar relationship like the one I have with you. Ika and I played together in my first pure forum mafia games on sc2mafia

[Titus]

@Tla, no you weren't. You asked me to vote Ank when you weren't even voting him yourself. [/confused]

[Titus]

Shit. I had my votes backwards. Derp. Teach me to play when drunk.

VOTE: Ank

I will sheep since I am lost and Ank's defense sucked.

[Titus]

Titus, could you please explain that Loran scumread?
You obviously don't agree with his posts, but I fail to see why it makes him scum...

Saki, who do you think is scum?

Loran's scumread, although this is an inelegant form of scumhunting, is derived from Ank's scumtead. If Ank isn't scum, Loran isn't scum are in a position where they cannot bus. Otherwise, they have the vigilante, and possibly a rolecop to contend with and no godfather. It would bone them. Scum would start a differing wagon.

That being said, if I am reading the game wrong, and TlaC isn't doing very intelligent gameplay, then Loran isn't scum at all but legitimately thinks Ank isn't the best lynch.

[Titus]

OK, you two do agree, that Anka is scum, right?
So if you don't get that Tla lynch, you would be ok with lynching Ank as well?
I am not sure what to do exactly yet and Titus didn't seem like he liked the idea, Saki likewise, so might that be a compromise that would work out?
Anyway, that depends on Hop and Ib as well ofc, so let's not rush anything.

What idea do I not like?

[Titus]

Yup that's pretty accurate. Why the emphasis on compromise? Why the push on Tla?

[Titus]

Sorry, you misspoke or are lying. You talked about me not liking a Tla lynch in 644, and then you suggest the same "it" might be a compromise lynch. The compromise should be referring to the same thing I wasn't liking.

[Titus]

Ok. You passed and are probtown. Scum would have attacked me.

[Titus]

I should read this.

You should and then choose who you support.

[Titus]

If you think one of them is scum why aren't you vote?

[Titus]

UNVOTE: Ank

I need to reread the sections Ank is talking about. I was fully expected scumAnk to jump on Tla. Given the fact that didn't happen and Ank's defense sounding plausible until a reread, I am going to pause for a moment and watch what happens.

Tla and Ank could be scum together but that means I am wrong in interpreting what I think is a semi-obvious conclusion.

Ibarra, don't sheep. Investigate.

[Titus]

Well, maybe we can work together. I am fairly lost. You appear to be as well. Why don't we put together a specific list of questions that should ideally be answerred on reread? This will help me see if you are scum like Tla believes or town like my PoE tells me.

[Titus]

Ibarra, you'd totally love sc2mafia then if you got past the wacky roles. 24 to 48 hour deadlines.

[Titus]

I meant I am not going to let a late arrival into the day say nothing and get away with it. Choose who he supports as town and who he thinks is scum.

[Titus]

Through page 7 of the reread. I am seeing a lot of awkward interactions between Malakittens and Saki.

First, a naked vote, which is properly null. Then he gives Celoki and Mala townpoints for reading correctly. Yet, Saki doesn't unvote. Then Mala defends Saki saying that's how she plays the game.

Loran's never push the lurker/newbies stance bothers me. It is not time, but pressure that causes people to crack.

[Titus]

Tne's content isn't as big today, but I don't necessarily see why he's being wagoned. Naked votings don't give me any reasoning to figure out. The most troubling thing is tne's push on Picard, who is obvtown cuz dead.

Even then he votes Tla bc he wants to hear more. Yet, there's plenty, like Saki, who have given less.

I am surprised Tla voted tne over Ibarra though.

VOTE: tne

@Tla, was the Ibarra scumread dependent on Ankscum?

[Titus]

Why did TNE just go to L-1?

He's at L minus 2. I think.


@Loran, I am grabbing the post that made me think that.

[Titus]

Not gonna lie to you Picard, I don't like your vote still hanging around on Flames. If you think he's a noob he'll slip eventually, why are you wasting time let's put Celebloki, Saki or Mala to L-1 until they produce something.

Not gonna lie to you Picard, I don't like your vote still hanging around on Flames. If you think he's a noob he'll slip eventually, why are you wasting time let's put Celebloki, Saki or Mala to L-1 until they produce something.

What the fuck.

I explained why I was keeping my vote on him, and you come and post that not 4 posts later?!

You didn't question anyone else on him, why is that?

Also, what do you mean, "He will slip eventually"?????

Why would you want me to voteone of those 3 you mentioned, they are all NULL or TOWNISH, IMO, Make a case for one of them. In the meantime...

VOTE: Unvote
Loranthaceae

Seriously, answer the 2 questions I proposed to you.

I understood your explanation, and I told you I didn't like it.

I questioned you because I saw you online and posting.

It makes no sense to push a noob further, it's like going all-out, instead you let them lounge and then come back again, fluctuating your aggression because chances are the longer they play the likelier they'll crack. How come you don't get that there's nothing to be gained from pressuring Flame atm?

I believe Celebloki is scum, which is why I'm voting him, because town just doesn't come in and be like 'oooh look at those two fighting, pass the popcorn'

I'm leaning scum on Mala as well. Gut, if you will.
And Saki is just pissing me off.

That's what makes me think you don't want to pressure newbies.

[Titus]

Me, Hopkirk, Tla...who is the fourth?

[Titus]

That's what makes me think you don't want to pressure newbies.

Well then read it again. I said pressure further, flames in particular. He had a strange way of expressing himself so pressuring him to death just then wasn't productive at all. And fluctuating aggression titus, how did you miss that part?

And it's fluctuating pressure over time that makes people crack, especially noobies.

If I hadn't found a solid scumread in Cele/Anka I would've pressured the lurkers more too.

I bolded that section. By saying there's no point, you releived all the pressure. That gave Flames/Zekrom no incentive to comply and hindered us greatly.

Even now, it doesn't make sense. Your point was never pressure the newbies until a better suspect comes along.

[Titus]

Tla is obvtown to me unless my conclusion is wrong, which I see no evidence to that effect. Town doesn't mean right. Flames had a high value of TNE based on his skills. If TNE had those skills, they should already be on display rather than waiting around to see them. So I am leaning towards Flames being wrong at the moment. If not, pressure is the way to draw out scums and scumhunters. Ank provided a decent defense when pressured. Why can't TNE if he's so good?

[Titus]

Based on the setup and either both scum or bith town, I would say both town. Even if they had done it befire, being successful means 1 scum dealing with a vig and possible rolecop. I don't like the dichotomy though.

That is the reason why lurkers are bothering me.

[Titus]

MTD, I said I didn't like the dichtomoy presented (both town or scum). I think 1 v 1 is higly possible.

[Titus]

It's something to consider but my gut says both scum is wrong. They could be figuring we'd assume if one died, the other autowins if we go with my theory and yours is my right.

[Titus]

Vla Thursday through Saturday

Noted

[Titus]

Tla, what lead you to that conclusion?

Welcome jon. I would like to hear your input.

[Titus]

@Tla, then let's lynch Loran. His response is budding everyone who doesn't vote him and insulting those who do. Right now, he is the more likely scum out of Ank/Loran.

VOTE: Loran

[Titus]

@Tla, then let's lynch Loran. His response is budding everyone who doesn't vote him and insulting those who do. Right now, he is the more likely scum out of Ank/Loran.

VOTE: Loran

I still don't know, at the moment I see both of them as pretty scummy, and I will not forget that Saki still has to get anything useful done as well...

MTD, you seem to have the same problem I do. Too many scumreads for this point in the game. I think Ank could be scum but his reaction to pressure seems townie and Loran just gets worse.

If we can lynch someone who everyone has produced content on and we still think that player is scum, we most likely have scum.

[Titus]

Consistent with what Ank? I am concerned your earlier votes are based off playstyle.

This vote on jon doesn't make sense as either alignment. Town would elaborate more. Scum would vote parkk on Loran.

[Titus]

Loran, I liked Anka's defense. I think you are trying the aggressive, get control of town and lead mislynches play. I have seen that a fair amount. Pick the popular scumread.

Really tempted just to lynch Saki as I will never be able to read him and let Loran/Ank/Tla resolve by further discussion.

[Titus]

Catching up now.

[Titus]

1. You used my path of unvoting Tlachta C -> nullscum read on that slot -> scum read on my slot as your case for this section.

What slots. Don't make it seem complicated you scummy fuck acting like a moron. You unvoted Tla ->

you

had a nullscum on

Tla

->

you

had a scum read on

Tla

1a. You're trying to use an immediate unvote after a replacement as a point. ...why?

Who said anything about

immediate

? And I was showing the progression of your read on Tla and how it augmented (with scummy reasons) in relation to how unlikely it would be for Tla to get lynched. That's it, now you're trying to take it apart and you're saying I'm saying it's scummy you unvoted upon replacing in. You die today.

...

Yes, that's what I meant. I have no idea how I managed to screw up the wording like that.

However, this doesn't really change anything. Your second point is basically defeated by your first point, since the unvote is not worth bringing up at all unless you're going to use it as part of your case. Unvoting someone upon replacement is just about one of the nullest tells I can think of. I'm mostly trying to figure out why it's relevant in any way.

1b. You completely ignored the other point I made on Tlachta C... which provided the nullscum read.

Because it wasn't relevant for the core argument which was to follow and which still stands despite your army of straw men.

Then why would you ever bring up the unvote -> nullscum -> scum path. Focus on your main point and leave irrelevant crap out if it's irrelevant.

Also, I'm a fan of not revealing everything I have right away. There's another point on Tlachta C I noted in my head but didn't put into words. I feel better about my reads when I get pressured about things I say. That's one reason I'm vague with a lot of my points. If you want a hint of what this point is, it's in this post.

Nanana if you're going to promote from nullscum to scum you better have a good reason OR you're going to specify that with that particular person you have something in mind that you're not going to share OR you say something like gut. You on the other hand based it on a future flip. And now you're saying that the content of that statement isn't .. I don't even know let's just take one straw man at a time.

If you ask nicely, I might tell you what I find scummy about that post.

Um. You do realize that the association tell was between Tlachta C and Saki... right? Using that point to link Tlachta C and Malakittens together would be kind of really retarded.

Yeah here it is, upon closer look this seems to me like a gigantic slip. The post about Saki and Mala was your basis of promoting your Tla read.. let's look at it again:

Tlachta C post #199 - I find the second point very interesting, because Saki has done about the same of both and yet you don't have a scumread on him. I will keep this point in mind if one of you flip and turn up scum.

Note for everyone reading this he (Anka) is talking about how Tla is scrutinizing (having a scumread on) Mala for inactivity but not Saki.

I said earlier that it's because he (Anka) wants to distance himself from Tla as much as possible by calling her scum. BUT since he knows Mala is scum and Saki is town future flips will point towards the fact that Tla is town because she was discriminating, seemingly in scum's disadvantage. So no way does that argument even qualify for a real reason to lynch Tla and he wouldn't have - that is what he knew because he had the extra info to work it out. Because Tla is his partner and distancing from her without putting her in real danger is what he wants, and it looks nice on that catchup post.

Back to what you said here Anka

You do realize that the association tell

, what does that association tell doing in your post looking like a reason to promote your scumread on Tla, is the real question here. You are acknowledging that it is a tell. It's a towntell isn't it? Titus even says that Mala was afraid of Tla so it worked. That was the whole point of your statement about Tla in your catchup post, to get Tla some towncred .. so now we know.

Why don't people take my discovery of this blatant scumplay seriously?

Once again for the easily distracted, It's day1 and Anka replaces in, Tla isn't in any danger of being lynched -> Anka promotes his null-scum Tla read to a scumread because Tla is entertaining a vague scumread on Mala but not on Saki = this looks like it's based on a future hypothetical flip for us townfolk and it doesn't make sense for us.
It's day2, Mala is dead and the connection between Anka and Tla is being debated, Tla is under scrutiny -> Anka is deploying a series of straw men to save his skin and he claims his post about Tla scumreading Mala but not Saki is an association tell between Tla and Saki, not Tla and Mala or even Tla and himself, noOooo

Now you're just ignoring the fact that I just

said

there's another reason Tlachta C got upgraded to a scumread. I guess dismissing it entirely and assuming it never happened counts as a point in a case now.

Association tells are very common things. That's one that stuck out to me because it was incredibly weird that she would give preferential treatment to one lurker over another when they've done basically the same thing. It had very little to nothing to do with my read on Tlachta.

I don't understand either way how it's not obvious that it was an association tell between Tla and Saki. You're trying so hard to make it into an association tell between myself and Tla or Tla and Mala when I basically state that I'll consider it is Tlachta C or Saki flip scum. Trying to promote Tlachta C town based on that point is... really dumb, like I said before.

I also find it very interesting that your entire focus was on trying to use a single point linking Tlachta C and me together (from my end) and linking Tlachta C together with Malakittens. If you were seriously trying to make a case for Tlachta+Ank+Mala scumteam,

Oh so you're telling me how I should've made a case on you, that I wasn't serious about it. It's not like you bothered to do much talking on Day1 which is strange considering how effective you were in damaging town (strongarming a mislynch - trying to subtlely pin it on me by saying my last documented read on Flames was a scumread... try to read the following post where I explained what I did there again - that was just some random names to get Hopkirk to open up so I can attack him again - oh and getting Picard to claim, also very nice)

Okay.

1. Pretty much everyone was strongarming Zekrom's lynch. Trying to pin it on me alone is ridiculous.
2. You will have to explain where this "following post where I explained what I did there again" is, because the next post you made after the post I made that point in is your shit dismissal of my entire case.
3. Picard claimed when he had TWO votes on him. Do you seriously think anyone would have expected that?

you would've put a lot more focus on bussing from both ends. My bet is you didn't include anything about bussing from Tlachta's end because it would've been ridiculous to assume that her blatantly sheeping you as the only reason for voting me basically ever in D1

Tla came up with some reasons but if she was town she would've called you out for that very post I was referring to, and how fucking illogical it is to promote a scumread like that. She didn't because then she would put you in a lynchable position.

You know... like death tunneling me for half the day.

If I had been pressured to explain that, I'd almost certainly have a townread on the person who applied the pressure. What you're doing is trying to strongarm that into a case no matter what I say in response.

could be seen as bussing instead of just trying to buddy a townie for towncred.

well yeah, she just threw them half ass reasons in there to get some towncred should the vig shoot.

So you're tunneling.

#605 is basically another bad attempt at trying to link us two together. You're basically saying that Tlachta C was hardcore sheeping you with really bad reasons... which is just as indicative of scum on town as scum on scum. Your point on scum tending to spread out votes is kind of pointless since you even admitted later in #610 that Malakittens never even voted for the entire day phase.

You've also failed to address basically any of my points except for a bland dismissal on my conclusion.

You have no real basis for Tlachta C and me bussing each other. All the links in this case are shoddy at best, nonsense at worst.
Your push on Tlachta C over me makes no sense. The only two significant scenarios I can see happening is you are town going full retard or scum trying to give more leg room for yourself. Trying to justify two targets for a lynch today instead of hardcore pushing for the person who you would have little trouble getting lynched with little to no risk is ridiculous. It's making me think that you know your case is garbage (hence why you only dismissed it and didn't disprove it) and want to draw attention away from that case with another one.

His associations with Malakittens also work exactly the same as the ones he's attacking Tlachta C for. Only with him, he doesn't have the pseudo-tunneling going for him that makes Tlachta C more town with a Mala-flip.

Vote: Loranthaceae

Defensiveness, bla blabla OMGUS.

Prove it. Every dismissal you post makes me more sure I'm right.

This post is why Ank is tow. He calmly and rationally discusses the points against him in an intellignt rational manner. Scum tend to flail when losing and not getting their way. That is precisely why Loran is scum. He's posting shit along the lines of no one cares, etc. He also isn't scumhunting anything that doesn't have to do with Ank.

[Titus]

Mod: My reply got in the quote tag by mistake.

Fixed, I think.

[Titus]

This post is why Ank is tow. He calmly and rationally discusses the points against him in an intellignt rational manner. Scum tend to flail when losing and not getting their way. That is precisely why Loran is scum. He's posting shit along the lines of no one cares, etc. He also isn't scumhunting anything that doesn't have to do with Ank.

This was meant as the reply to Loran.

[Titus]

Ank's responses appear genuine to me. Whatever Ank says you appear to be twisting to be scum. You are tunnelling him and Ank. Even now, you think my answer is shit but you just say "well you can be moronic as town". You are basically just saying "They're scum" and brow beating everyone who disagrees. Discrediting all who disagree is absolutely inappropriate. Ank highlights this tunnel in a rather rational manner.

Tla is town, quit trying to link players together without a flip. That is shit.

You have done virtually no hunting, only concluding since I subbed in. Hunting involves asking questions to get to the truth. Flames/Z provided no intelligent content. There's no way to "know" they were bad lynches without a scum roll pm.

I am so confident that Tla is town, to the point where if Tla and Ank must be on the same team, they are both town.


Tell me why I am wrong on Tla.

[Titus]

@Loran/MTD, Loran is right and right about the underlying premises. When I subbed in, I was kind of lost, so I was looking for someone who could be solid town. Those who questioned/suspected Mala (flipped scum) were a good place to start. Also, the vig has to be someone who would shoot a scimmy lurker over Ank. Based on mala's ISO, that's Tla (now neil) or me and I am not the vig so.... I never intended to out this reasoning as it is extremely anti-town to do so. However, Loran already scummily outed my conclusion on Tla being the vig, I might as well put my reasoning out there.

@Jon_h61.. Ranking town to scum excluding myself.
Neil
Jon
MTD

Ank

Hopkirk
Saki

Hayate
Loran

Jon, how often do you use meta? I rarely find it useful. Yet what people say about meta is highly useful.

[Titus]

Loran, don't act like my belief was weak. If it was a mere possibility, I wouldn't be townreading the slot so hard. Tla seems to be the only possible candidate for the slot fmpov. I damn well said some reasons were anti-town but intelligent. You figured out what I thought, so your first thought is to deliver the message to your scum mate and discredit your attacker. As for claiming I am not the vig...well duh. If my reasoning was clear that I think Tla is the vig, then I cannot be.

Saki/Hopkirk are nullreads to me. Saki would likely be a scumread but for the fact I always scumread Saki. Hopkirk is a null based on the lack of follow through but I don't see anything outwardly pushing a scum agenda (but I haven't read Hayate's wall).

Tne's behavior isn't consistent eih his words. Mostly little nagging things, like his vote on Tla for more content when Saki nd Hopkirk were around?


@Hayate, how are you townreading Loran?

Deleted double post.

[Titus]

AND there's something that still bothers me. Titus, if you thought Tla is the vig why do you think it's a good idea to call her town like that right at the start of Day2. Don't you think it attracts NKs? You claim to be VT so putting who you think is the vig out there like that doesn't make sense.

Who the fuck said I am claiming anything other than not vig.

Townreads attract NKs, yes, but at somepoint we need to narrow down who he scum can and cannot be. Good lord. Get off your fucking horse.

[Titus]

Saki, you are making it really hard not to death tunnel your ass and that's with obvscum Loran. Please give us something.

1) I didn't. I said I thought Tla was town for reasons I couldn't discuss. You pop on saying I believed Tla was the vig. That was accurate so I figured that was over.

2) You saw that I thought Tla was the vig. You could have said, look at your assumption, it's wrong due to XYZ reasons. Then, we've kept my educated belief out of the public eye and you accomplish your point. Yet, your first thought is to out my thought process to your scum buddy because you are in a lynch able position.

3) No, you're far from obvtown. Your reads suck and you insult everyone who disagrees with you. You are desperate for a lynch. The more you flail, with shitty cases, the less likely I am to follow you.

4) Let's see here, now Me, MTD, Ank and TLA are scum. No, more likely you are caught scum. Shut up and die.

[Titus]

@neil, I never intended to talk about the vig. I just didn't want the vig to be put under any pressure to claim. I agree we need to be smart with what weapons we have left. :nod: If we get lucky enough and lynch the rolecop today, the scum team will essentially be boned unless they make perfect kills. So aggressive and smart is the best play here.

I think I may really need to review the Ibarra slot. Both you and Tla strongly agree with that slot being scum. I know you're both one slot but stop it on jon. 742 is not a softclaim of anything. Jon is probably not scum.

[Titus]

Wow, neil saying we shouldn't talk about the vig and then talks about the chances of him being the vig. Hilarious PR hunting. Condescending his attacker, myeah I do it too but constructively like this:
Titus you can't be helped. I'm going to fuck with you until you get to your senses starting immediately.

I enjoy scum fucking with me. It makes them obvious. Please continue flailing.

Tell me more about your delusions about me being scum and why shouldn't I have a scumread on you?

I don't have delusions so I'm afraid I cannot intelligently respond to this point.

You shouldn't have a scumread on me because I'm epically awesome, my thoughts are clear and yeah I'm just awesome. Seriously though, I like scum scumreading me. So I'm not even going to bother with a defense. Highlight your mistaken assertions about me being scummy and I'll respond.

You've been saying I don't want to push lurkers or noobs. You've been saying Ank's defense is good, holy fuck. You read Tla as town because she might be the vig, then I explain why she can't and then you come up with this great idea that you should claim not to be the vig then blame it on me, then blame it on me for saying it was wrong.

You seem to have a great ability for summary and logical comprehension issues. If I townread someone for being the vig, I cannot be the vig. Again, duh. Highlighting this just helped the scum team. Then again, that's exactly what you want.

Then blame me for having misinterpreted you claiming VT which is about the only thing that is legitimately bad on my part which is pretty much the only time you get emotional, as if to signal that this is the only time your accusation is truthful.

Hahaha. Please. Just stop. You heard they already replaced Jay Leno right? We don't need your comedy act of trying to out my role.

P-edit lol didn't want the vig to claim. Like the vig is going to claim just because I say Tla is not the vig wtf.

Oh yeah MTD. I got you.

Titus, MTD scumteam. HOoooray.
But seriously let's lynch neil.

Obviously this is just levels of wrong. No one is thinking the vig will claim. You're scumreading those with backbone. Just die already.

[Titus]

@Loran, I never claimed to be the vig. I never intended to talk about the vig. I only started to directly talk about the vig because you stated that I thought he was the vig. I'm not going to deny what I think. I hard read Tla to ensure scum wouldn't put Tla anywhere near mislynch to hide the vig. It didn't work, obviously.

I don't need luck, I've got scum.

@Saki, god damn it. You are going to drive me fucking nuts. Jon is town. Stop it and come play with me. Test me. Give me fucking SOMETHING!

[Titus]

Do you still think Tla might be the vig. Why the fuck?

You realize how epically anti-town it is to answer this question RIGHT? Right? *smack*

[Titus]

Stop blaming me for talking about the vig ffs. You could've ignored that statement and say any random bullshit like you did in your last few posts. I don't read you as scum but how can I not read you as scum if you do stuff like that. If I wouldn't have caught Ank and Tla already I'd be all over your ass.

You're the only one who appears not to understand what I am saying and no, I can't just ignore someone who basically attempts to lay out my implicit assumptions. Bad bad bad. I don't really feel like going around in circles because I actually care to get better at the game.

@Saki, in the event you are town, I have no idea why you're scumreading Jon. Let's talk. Jon, MTD, neil are totes town.

[Titus]

Ok, I am deliberately stepping back here. I'm pretty sure Loran is scum, but some rare minute parts of his reactions appear townie. For instance, he doesn't swap out the reads immediately to give him an angle to discredit. I think I need some time away to reevaluate. I'll answer questions directed at me and I am around.

[Titus]

@Loran, Let us suppose for a moment that you are town but wrong on the scumteam. Who is scum then? If you are wong on just Ank? Just Neil?

[Titus]

@Neil, acknowleding receipt of request cuz deadline. Can't effectively type out the whole thing now. I am doing a short version.

Loran's "scumhunting" is nothing more than conclusions and attacking those who he disagrees with for being stupid. He's not investigating the group for scuminess, rather he's assuming that everyone who agrees with him must be town and everyone who disagrees with him is scum or an idiot. I'll flesh it out later if necessary.

Why isn't Loran a viable lynch?

[Titus]

If I'm wrong on Ank I'll never play forum mafia ever again. If I'm wrong on Tla/neil then I'll take a brake of about 2 years or so, go to a spiritual place and live simple and come back with a sorted out mind.

Almost made me snort coffee!

Ignoring this as I believe it to be an attempt at a trust tell. I say attempt bc Loran is still scum and unlikely to follow through. It still qualifies as a trust tell because it brings outside influences into the game.

[Titus]

Observe how he doesn't care about the rest of the game. He found this one entrance for himself (Picard vs Flame vs Tla) and that's where he'll confined himself, treading softly in order not to do too much. Like this guy

That's Loran's 191

It's important because it highlights scum Loran's own perspective. He's been focusing on the same battle since that post, doing no real questions of anyone else.

Then look at 587, at the "amazement" that scum would bus their last partner like this. Even he is aware his own theory on Ank is totally shit.

Tla(now neil) bussing strongly suggests that Ank/Neil cannot be scum together. Period.

When his theory looks even more ridiculous, he starts spouting anthropology of meta (#610, big ass antlers).

His whole ISO has no questions for any other players. He's assuming everyone else is town. This is not the ISO of a hunter, but the ISO of someone desperately pushing a mislynch.

[Titus]

Ank

Loran, you are so scum when you're scum it's ridiculously obvious. I might just replace in to every one of your future scumgames and get you lynched so I can pimp up my town record.

FTFY!

[Titus]

@Ank/Loran, how the fuck are you both reading Saki as town?

[Titus]

Mtd, do you want an ISO? I like you as town bc of you appearing as list as I was before Loran scum became apparent to me. Neil is town bc of tla being town. His effort is also indicative of towniness.

[Titus]

@Jon, really?


Oh add in the language analysis, I love Neil. Are you a psychology major? If you are going down, can you find me spots where people dusassociate from a lynch? Particularly Loran? Yes, I know confbias and all.

[Titus]

@jon, I think you and Neil are both town. Town get passionate at lynch time. Town fight and reason. Scum usually fake one or the other. Here, I see two townies, whose actions are clouded by emotion, passion and tunnels. Stop please. Lynch Loran with me.

[Titus]

@Jon, if you feel a 1 v 1 w neil is required, why the unvote?

[Titus]

@Neil/Ank/MTD/Loran I am feeling a little uncertain about Jon and his unvote then revote. Now he's promising not to talk about his scumread. Was I wrong to townread Jon?

@Loran, you are mocking the passion but lack the reasoning of a townie. The latter hs always been my issue.

[Titus]

@Jon, who do you think is baiting you? Do you think anyone else is being baited? Why?

[Titus]

Jon, I love to argue the definition of words. To me, that makes Neil town as fuck and not baiting. Word choice matters.

Loran, of course I haven't seen any MS pages. I also don't see the fucking point.

[Titus]

Now that's a non-sequitur. I'm asking questions, evaluating my opinions based on the evidence I see. Not throwing up random non-sequiturs and yelling someone is scum over and over. Are you seriously telling me that none of this recent behavior raised a question for you?

[Titus]

:S WTF Loran?

Dopog, I can see where that suggests MTD scum but I don't get Ank scum from that. Explain please?

[Titus]

Wow...really sheep my scumread? Does fuckitol come with antiwinkon?

[Titus]

@Loran, sometimes people don't actually figure out how to find a free PDF sharing site. I actually would have had a smoother scum victory had I figured out how to do that. See ASOIAF. I started out intending to handwrite notes on the entire fucking game, and then summarize those notes by hand. About 30 pages in, my hand started cramping and I said fuck it and took 3 days to even share that.

[Titus]

My whole point for that game was to say handwritten notes don't mean shit.

[Titus]

I absolutely don't want a Neil lynch. I can live with a Hayate lynch due to Hopkirk majorly lurking and Hayate not really shaking things up. Plus, I don't like anything Loran is pushing.


VOTE: Hayate

[Titus]

@dopg/Loran, I find that post as a reads reversal post. If I am wrong, my position isn't cemented kinda deal. I hate those, but they aren't alignment indicative.

[Titus]

@Jon, what I'd be doing is I would be looking through the VCs to determine who voted Neil and why. I have no intentions of doing that pre-flip as it would take a lot of time, especially for an assumption I believe to be false. I'd be looking for someone who did everything in their power to avoid voting neil without defending him hard (what I am doing). Scum will rarely bus in this scenario IMO, so that's who I would be looking at. Gut says Hayate or Ank though.

Way to ruin a hammer gambit man.

[Titus]

Jon, similar question. Suppose neil is town, who would you look at for scum?

[Titus]

@dopog, A player discrediting a vote with something that is true is a null unless selective. A player casting a bad vote doesn't necessarily mean their alignment either. So sometimes it is best to leave a guide post to an odd vote. That is what it looked like Ank was doing. MTD's attack bothers me more, but his later game confusion looks townie.

[Titus]

This is the day that never ends. It goes on and on my friends. Some players started posting not knowing what it was, and they'll continue posting forever just because...[repeat from start]

@Loran, really you are going for me changing my entite scum meta on a dime. Dude, telegraphing much? I got three recent scum games. ASOIF, SEED (large themes) and See Minus (micro). Check those out for meta. If I suddenly started acting like Manera, lynch train city. Just shut up.

[Titus]

I didn't put words in your mouth. Ibarra looked survivalistic. Your response question did assume Ibarra scum and gave no reason why.

Again, assumption without more. I had a vla due to a death in the family, so retreating makes sense. Yet, you impose a sinister motive.

[Titus]

Agreed. Write them out. Many players changed.

[Titus]

Lucky, you are making no sense. We may have played together a few moons ago. Too long to remember. Your name does sound familiar though.

I really don't get how you can townread me and vote for my vig.

[Titus]

Sorry. Poor drafting. Townreading me and voting my vig makes no sense. Neil is Tla and I am reasonably confident neil is the vig. Hence no push to claim.

[Titus]

Ok. I guess that makes sense. I kinda assumed I would be a scumread due to defending your scumread. I guess I was engaged in projection.

VOTE: Loran

Can we flashwagon Loran?

[Titus]

This may be a stalemate. I really do not want a no lynch but lynching my pr candidate is worse. So yeah, longshot but gotta try.

[Titus]

If Neil is fake claiming, why not let the vig kill him tonight?

Because the backup jailkeeper can protect him.

Impossible unless the mafia gave up their nk. Jailkeep roleblocks.

[Titus]

@Jon, give me a specific post for your question.

[Titus]

If Neil is fake claiming, why not let the vig kill him tonight?

Because the backup jailkeeper can protect him.

Impossible unless the mafia gave up their nk. Jailkeep roleblocks.

Oh wait nm. Scum would jk the vig.

[Titus]

If Neil is fake claiming, why not let the vig kill him tonight?

Because the backup jailkeeper can protect him.

Impossible unless the mafia gave up their nk. Jailkeep roleblocks.

Oh wait nm. Scum would jk the vig.

Wait, that would require scum to know the vig identity...

[Titus]

So you are or aren't vig. Final answer please?

[Titus]

The silence was more telling than pushing Jon. I would have expected more fleshed out responses from town, but my recollection has only MTD and Neil answering.

@Lucky, I absolutely do. Best explaimed after Neil answers.

[Titus]

It's not a PR benefit question, it is a scumhunting one.

[Titus]

No. It's vig fishing. Stop it.

Sort of. If Neil hinted a vig to save himself, but isn't the vig, then he's obvscum. It's pretty clear that is his claim. I don't want weaseling.

[Titus]

VOTE: No lynch

Out of the weekend.

We are in mylo.

[Titus]

Yes, Saki. I don't do well with trusting others to make the call. Hence why I am headstrong and yell at everyone to give me what I want. I am working on it.

[Titus]

Saki, you're seriously questioning whether I am headstrong???

I do also suppose the vig would use common fucking sense and not shoot in mylo if the group agreed to no lynch.

In mylo, the best move is nobody shoots and we force the scums hands.

Out of the group, I don't see any universal townreads. Forcing the scums to tell us who the biggest threat to them is gives us a great angle in scumhunting.

Logic says MTD was one scumkill (I can't see scum shooting the vig implier and the vig shooting the backup rolecop as a fluke). We combine that with who the scum kill today, we should get an idea as to who the scums are.

[Titus]

Scratch that. I thought a vig could correct for a mislynch in lylo. Really it corrects in a mislynch during mylo. I was typing out my response and I realized that even a vig correct shot after a mislynch in mylo leaves us at a 1 v 1.

UNVOTE:

Mylo, mislynch means 3 v 2 left. Scum kill.. 2 v 2, vig kill 2 v 1.

We should absolutely lynch today. My mistake. Thanks Saki and Lucky.

I will come back tomorrow and read this. I've got real life Dungeons and Dragons in about an hour and a half.

[Titus]

Not a fan of continuing till the posts are back, but if y'all really want to continue, we can. If the posts are not back by the first, screw it and go.

[Titus]

@Saki, I don't think Lucky should be lynched. Dopog is a much better option IMO.

[Titus]

That's L-1 guys.

[Titus]

Sorry. Poor drafting. Townreading me and voting my vig makes no sense. Neil is Tla and I am reasonably confident neil is the vig. Hence no push to claim.

This is 1207. A pr in this setup should not be pushed to claim.

Scum is so losing this. Thanks Ank for the hammer. I'm a little perturbed it's naked but hey, if it makes ya live through the night.

We got one scum tomorrow most likely, let's finish this.

[Titus]

Ank, the JK crumb was obvious to me just because he crumbed it the way I would have. Nonsense with a lot of filler. He was talking about cages and what not, which instantly meant jailkeep. Even if he hadn't outed, I would have insisted on killing him.

I think that "not really bussing" Day 2 was helpful. I have a pretty strong reputation of never pushing my buddies. So I knew I had to push you there Ank bc I figured you were in trouble. I even discussed this in the qt and y'all were like no bussing. Maybe that helped Ank keep his cool for a bit. I just found an excuse to disband it and ran with it.

Dopog was pretty spot on at the end, so I just OMGUSed him. I'm surprised people jumped on so quick after Loran, given I was the driving force there and he was totally town.

[Titus]

I'm really shocked I wasn't ever lynched. Celebloki scummed up the slot quite a bit and I never felt I improved it a whole lot. I thought we were pretty much screwed once Mala flipped.

Yeah i was pretty surprised too, i thought Saki was paranoid of Titus and would end up shooting her Night 2 after your lynch ending in a Town win, but then stuff happened!

Saki is one of the players who have a history of always being paranoid of me. I used it to my advantage here, highlighting it because Saki was right not to trust me.

I'm pretty much nearing autolynch for a few and another scum victory is not helping matters. I just had two scum victories, almost flawless flip today.

[Titus]

Oh and obviously sharing the QT is fine by me. I'll give Mala a few days to see if she wants to share or not.

[Titus]

Sorta both. Look at 22 - 24 in the scum chat.

[Titus]

I'd love to hear your individual thoughts Sakura.

[Titus]

Take your time. :nod: I have games to stalk

[Titus]

This was really fun Sakura. You are a pretty good mod. I'm glad I subbed in here.

I love taking impossible games and winning them. Thing is, I usually come closer than expected if I don't win. So it's a relief to do something that was really hard.

If Ank was lynched day 2, we were likely totally boned though. You can't put one scum against a rolecop and a vig. It would require an immense amount of luck. That or jailkeeping myself and praying MTD never checked me.

[Titus]

Yeah, the MTD kill shocked the living daylights out of me. Plus, it screwed the narrative up for the group and made MTD look like a scum kill. Totally beneficial.

I don't think you would have had much success with the grilling me for disagreeing. I was too interwoven with the town at that point Saki. Common practice is to NL at Mylo. I probably would have pushed it harder. It still was the best decision, given all four towns had to agree on a lynch plan.

[Titus]

Agreed. My initial reluctance on Saki was fueled by Saki not killing me.

[Titus]

Let's just do it. 2 to 1 hammers and she hasn't objected anyway.

[Titus]

http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/kgu2BqDHKxBY8

[Titus]

I'm debating getting an alt for the reasons you've said Jon. I have no less than 3 people who have relayed these sentiments spontaneously.