Open 566: Murder on the Oriental Express (Game Over)

[TobyLoby]

VOTE: Amy Farrah Fowler

[TobyLoby]

What is the point of voting for oneself? Avoiding voting someone else?

Vote: Astinus

UNVOTE:
VOTE: SnuggkyDuckling

There were three people who self-voted up to this point. Why point out Astinus?

[TobyLoby]

or rather, focus on Astinus.BBlpnde

Mr_Blonde

, when did you replace into the game?

Mr_Blonde is Hiraki's replacement

[TobyLoby]

There were three people who self-voted up to this point. Why point out Astinus?

+ What is your prior experience with mafia?

[TobyLoby]

Right.

Is your vote on Mr Blonde more serious now that he has spoken? He seems non-plus - what does that mean to you?

[TobyLoby]

I don't consider "did you read the game" to be the start of serious questioning when the question I asked immediately prior is dependent on me reading the game.

These come across as mightily subjective for someone who apparently has never played before, iirc

What are you getting at here?

[TobyLoby]

UNVOTE:

Your question looks pointless when I'm reading the thread and see a reason other then calling out a player because of a self vote.

My question for a singular individual is pointless because you see reason other than to call out a player because of a self-vote (their reasoning their own vote)? This doesn't make sense. All it does is try and make me feel bad.

Amy

, what are your thoughts on farside?

[TobyLoby]

VOTE: acryon

I'm going to disagree with some of Amy's thoughts on Acryon. Although he may be making original analysis, a lot of it is said when asked and a chunk of his posting has been quotes from the wiki or himself from another game. His rather quick response to Amy means he's following the thread but he's not actively contributing to it. We've also long past the RVS stage.

[TobyLoby]

Some people think Astinus may be a troll alt account, so I don't know how serious to take them or whether you can apply newb-tells to them.

[TobyLoby]

Hello Farside,

What was your view of astinus self vote after asking if it was okay? Does it really help or do anything to switch rvs to oneself?

I made a response about Astinus in post 78. I don't know if we can take anything serious from their actions or read from it.

If you want an updated answer now that Astinus has posted again or that you don't care about my thoughts above but want an independent answer apart from my original thoughts, then my answers are:

1. I don't view it as anything telling by itself especially as it came up after another player doing it.
2. No.

@acyron: I figured she was but I was trying to understand why she focused on one part of the post and not the rest

I was in part responding to Amy's post 74 read of Acyron where I am addressing her read along with my own opinions. I start the second sentence of my vote on him in post 77 initially addressing the whole of his latest post and acknowledged that although he has made original analysis, it was only when he was asked and a good chunk of his contribution to the thread at the time was regurgitation of the wiki and a quote of himself in a past game (along with the stuff I already addressed), combined with my belief that he may be actively lurking.

Essentially, those things to me override any townie-ness that last post of his may have had.

If you don't like my reasoning, that's cool. You can debate it with me and tell me why you believe I am wrong. What I am not going to do is engage in some snark vs snark game with you.

Now then,

@Farside,

1. What of my posts are indicative of scum?
2. Maybe I missed it: What is your read on Mr_Blonde now?
3.

He looks to be trying to make it as though I was yelling charge, telling people this is scum and expecting people to follow that.

Can you quote where you believe he is doing this?

[TobyLoby]

I agree with Amy that I think farside really believes what they fought for regarding the Hiraki slot. I don't think there is plain scum motivation in that. The difficulty in reading farside is differentiating between what is indicative of alignment and what are personality/attitude tells. I've never played with her before so I don't know how much "snarky" factors into things. I need to see more of her. My gut based on previous similar experiences with players wants to say town.

Chaos' post,

Also, your case against Mr.Blonde has no real evidence against it and I do not understand why a wagon is building on him so early because of a post where he said "let's dance."

I do find scummy, but in the past I've found it to be a stronger associative tell than a flat out. A scum coming in to defend their buddy sort of way. Two votes on a buddy may look more dire than it is. I can especially see this with a newer player. I suppose it could be a scum Chaos busing a scum farside and overexagerrating a wagon but I find it less likely.

@acryon

,

While I don't necessarily think Beli is going about it the perfect way, I think he is at least tunneling in a good direction.

What about how Beli is going about do you think of as not perfect?

P-edit a bunch of people have posted while writing this. Oh well.

[TobyLoby]

Not that I generally feel the need to respond to this type of thing, but it seems a little disingenuous to call quoting the wiki to be helpful and give a newbie an accurate definition "regurgitating" it. Additionally, 59 was a real post. So at that time, I had one post helping a newbie, one post adding onto someone's argument, and a third post detailing my reads with a blurb regarding my playstyle during RVS. Trying to say a "good chunk" of my contribution was from what you said it was seems likes a hard sell.

You quoted. It doesn't matter why or for whom. How else would you define it? I suppose "quoting from the wiki" is the best way to put it. It is nothing more besides that. I'm looking at your posts on an ongoing contribution basis and that is what I see.

What was the point if your question to astinus?

I didn't ask a question to Astinus. I asked someone a question about Astinus and I think it is self-evident why.

[TobyLoby]

Concerning Beli,

Beli, please tone down the sarcasm just a tad as it's not necessary and does nothing to aid the conversation.

I'm afraid I'm going to go ahead and reject that unfounded stipulation -- and, by the transitive property, the demand premised by it.

I look at this and go, would scum be so flippant?

[TobyLoby]

@farside

,

]Sorry, what was the point of your question to duckling?
I don't see what it was.

"There were three people who self-voted up to this point. Why point out Astinus?"

The point of my question is to ask why ducky did this so I could find out why ducky pointed out Astinus when two other people did the same. That pretty much sums it up.

@Mr_Blonde

,

@Toby - Please explain the bolded quote of yours that is nested here. I missed this earlier, but here you appear to be linking me with Chaos by saying that he is coming to my defense - but end the quote by saying that he could just be busing Farside as well. I'm not following here.

You are saying that two other slots could potentially be scumbros with Chaos, which essentially makes Chaos scum in either situation, but you are voting whom? Also - I feel it's very early for such associative tells, even if soft. I find it a bit troubling that you'd associate this sort of defense to automatically mean wolf/wolf instead of potentially Chaos buddying/WKing.

I find it to be a stronger associate tell than a flat out scum tell. That means if you were lynched and flipped scum, I'd find it very likely that Chaos is scum too. It can work the other way around as well but the association tell isn't as strong I think, but still there. I said it could be busing farside but I don't find it as likely (mainly ruling out that idea). So no, what I said doesn't just make him flat out scum in the proposed situations. What you've stumbled across though is I don't have a town read on you.

I believe it less so to be buddying based on experience and what he said doesn't sound like buddying. He seems . . . concerned, if that is the right word.

I agree that it's very early for associate tells, so then why are you questioning me on not voting on that? I'm voting a scum read.

[TobyLoby]

Acyron, what is your read on Belisarus?

[TobyLoby]

What about the number of votes on him makes you not want to vote?

[TobyLoby]

I think the first few big wagons of the day are just as likely to be scum driven as town driven. There is incentive to to be driving or helping drive a wagon as well as not being on it. I also don't think 4/8 is very many people on him.

Are you reading Chaos as more likely to be town because of his wagon? Is where anyone on Chaos you are suspicious of?

[TobyLoby]

I'll have time to catch up to this either very late tonight or tomorrow afternoon.

[TobyLoby]

I'll get more in-depth with things later tonight. I think Astinus' behavior is more of a personality tell than an alignment tell.

I don't know what you're getting at Skelda. You're reading him as null now but a lot of that post reads to me like someone who thinks he is scummy.

[TobyLoby]

Acyron, why did you leave the Chaos wagon to join mine? You've indicated nothing in your posts that you think Chaos' last post made him any less scummy or rather, townie. You also said you like to use your vote for pressure, but then you get of Chaos' wagon to put a second post on me. That doesn't make sense.

[TobyLoby]

You aren't allowed to post in the thread anymore.

Way to wifom what that means though.

[TobyLoby]

What is the point of voting for oneself? Avoiding voting someone else?

Vote: Astinus

UNVOTE:
VOTE: SnuggkyDuckling

There were three people who self-voted up to this point. Why point out Astinus?

Ohhh, now this is a scummy reason for a vote. 3 people self voted yes….But you don’t see ANYTHING different about the Astinus self vote? Really?

I'm looking to see how they will explain it. It's not about what I see, it's asking what Snuggly sees that makes it different. As you can see with Snuggly's own explanation,

Probably just because he was the most recent.

They didn't take it as anything different as what you are assuming. Just that "he was the most recent." Which looking back I think it aligns with what their own original reasoning backs up. If they went into an over explanation that would look scummy to me.

Combined with their missing their question of mine that I believe they're genuine about, it makes me think they are town.

[TobyLoby]

The acyron vote switch to me is weird in combination with farside's chaos vote switch off me, especially when acyron's inspiration in part due to farside. I can't properly articulate what bothers me about it.

Regarding scum town reading a bunch of people, yes it happens and it can be a scum tell depending on how they go about it. It can be difficult for some scum to see through what they feel is obvious towniness. Usually they do it with a lot of null reads though. That hasn't very much struck me what Skelda is doing, but I need to reread the last few pages.

Actually, I read back a bit and remembered how he put Chaos at null so maybe. That retraction of the Chaos read is what is striking to me. The first part of the post looks like somebody calling out a scumread and it didn't follow through naturally to me to then call him null. It's hit me that Skelda may be using logic different from my own though.

[TobyLoby]

I am referring to acyron weirdness more so than to you. I think you are most likely town. So I see you go some place and it makes sense to me and then when I look at his actions doing the opposite it doesn't make sense. I know I'm not articulating this well.

That is a good point on Chaos.

I didn't realize the deadline is so soon. I'm going to give the thread a once more lookyloo by tonight and get out more thorough reads before going forward.

[TobyLoby]

@Skelda

, can you give a more definite moment when you believed Chaos was going to be an easy lynch? Also, what points about dry-fit and Toby (me) that CKD made that you agree with and what does it mean to you? CKD didn't mention either of us much so I want to see what you got out of it.

@Chaos

, do you still believe scum is on your wagon and influencing it? If so, who?

[TobyLoby]

I don't think farside is scum. She has pretty consistently questioned people and called them out. The Chaos wagon itself has been getting some negative feedback by Skelda, Ranon, and from Chaos himself. Additionally, acyron had recently left the wagon. To join the wagon at that point would draw negative attention and I don't know if scum-her would have done that.

[TobyLoby]

It's a (small) part of why I think acyron's vote off of Chaos is more indicative of scum.

I am still getting used to using my vote more. I come from playing IRL, where votes were used differently, and as I get more used to this format, I am starting to use my votes for pressure more. Consider your post inspiration. I still don't like the play I've seen from Toby.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: TobyLoby

He uses his votes for pressure, so he takes his vote off of the leading wagon to make a twofer wagon on me. That doesn't make sense. His read on Chaos didn't change either. I also don't buy the part about putting pressure on me while Chaos has pressure already that will stay.

I look at -who I believe- is a town farside putting a vote on Chaos to put pressure on him and I look at acyron taking their vote off because they believe there is enough pressure and it doesn't make sense.

[TobyLoby]

RoyalApe, for what other reason do you believe Skelda is scummy beyond the town reads deal? You said you were going to vote her before but all I'm reading is stuff about town reads. You had Skelda in the null pile post 145. So I am curious as to what changed your mind.

I'd also like to see your reads in general.

[TobyLoby]

Skelda is a him, I apologise. I see that name and think woman. \ /

I'm just not seeing this transition to Skelda scum before the town reads bit.

[TobyLoby]

I have further things I want to say (and no, not just questions), but I'd prefer RoyalApe to reply first.

[TobyLoby]

Okay time is running down. Let's talk Skelda.

Skelda

Skelda is mostly consistent in everything he is says, does, and thinks in-thread. I think this consistency is kinda townie.

My big iffy is this post they made:

Spoiler: Skelda Post

Okay so I finally read through everything and this is my first comment on the wagon against me. Although looking back now, I can see how my vote and my reasoning can seem scummy I think the speed of my wagon and the lack of people questioning the idea of my one post proving rather or not I'm scum is actually a legitimate way to look at things is pretty bad. I definitely think that scum is on my wagon and are influencing it although to who is exactly scum I'm not quite sure. I'm going to post a reads list after my next class tonight and will go from there. Also, if there are certain questions I have missed please direct them towards me and I will do my best to answer.

Lack of people questioning "rather" your first post is a legitimate way of looking at things?

I mean, your wagon is four people, right? It isn't like you are at L-1 or anything. And I think a lot of us, including you, have acknowledged that your first post was scummy. But, since we aren't all voting for yoh, not exactly sure what your point is.

But you are the sort of person who is incapable of not being scummy. That's the impression I get, at least. And you might be scum and play exactly as you do as Town and still get lynched becaus you are just so lynchable. But I think I'm retracting my scumread on you, oddly enough, and putting you as null. Sure, your posts are horrible. But after reading more of them, I feel like they are going to be horrible no matter what alignment you happen to have. But being like that also makes you pretttyhard to townread or read at all.

What is your opinion on RoyalApe?

This looks to me, especially in the first four sentences, that Skelda may potentially be pushing Chaos as being scummy while not adding himself to the wagon.

What is everyone's thoughts on that? Am I over reading it?

Amy where did you go?

[TobyLoby]

Scrambles, what are your reads?

[TobyLoby]

@RoyalApe

,

But he has since tried to start a wagon on me after Jogger put out the scum read on me and then changed course to vote for you who I have null leaning good. I don't think I did anything in between his vote on me and his change to you to warrant a switch. But nobody else jumped on my wagon so it feels like he dismissed the wagon for being unfruitful.

I believe Skelda did jump onto me because of that and me specifically because he said didn't read me as town out of the bunch being voted for in post 316.

Part of these vote changes happened after you would have voted him though. Just for added clarification, what about your earlier exchange with Skelda made you think scum? What are your thoughts about what I said about Skelda in post 325?

@acyron

,

RoyalApe is tricky to me. 317 seems town. Toby, I know you didn't necessarily buy 317 as much, but a huge part of catching scum is looking at their town-reads. I liked Ape's questioning of even the most universal town-reads from Skelda, because you know who tend to have scum-reads without real conviction? Scum. On the other side, we have 301 where he is pushing Chaos to vote NakedJogger, who was pushing him. Just seemed a little defensive.

I don't like votes without explanation (314 from NakedJogger), but 313 from Belisaurus really sucks IMO. Bel's entire ISO at this point is tunneling Farside and trolling. Follow that up with a "darn I wish I had more to go off of!" and he really doesn't look good to me.

I don't have a problem with RoyalApe questioning town reads. I'm having a little difficulty seeing where he came from before CKD entered.

Why do you see RoyalApe (pushing) Chaos to vote NakedJogger as defensive? Defensive of whom in particular do you think?

Chaos has come in to say some more stuff now. Do you think he is townier or scummier for it? What about Skelda's reaction to CKD's post? Do you think Skelda is scum?

[TobyLoby]

I don't see what motive RoyalApe would have for doing that though. I don't see why he would choose to be defensive through Chaos. Like, I can see scum-RoyalApe trying to make Chaos look scummy for not voting, but I can't see a scum-RoyalApe doing some weird OMGUS to NakedJogger thing.

So would you say right now you are leaning to vote Skelda then?

[TobyLoby]

nyway, that chaos lynch was disbanded a little too easily for my liking. I feel like there's some biasing going on.

I don't get what you were trying to say here if you didn't think Chaos was scummy. If not then what?

Why are reasonably suspicious people bad lynches? If they are reasonably suspicious then why are they bad lynches?

[TobyLoby]

in my experience, scum like to ramp townies up til the edge and then bus other townies to make for easy combos.

I think you're confusing this game with mortal kombat battle moves

[TobyLoby]

scrambles, I have a woman avatar. where is that town read?!??!?

[TobyLoby]

He's valuable as a future mislynch? What? I don't think Chaos has made himself particularly anything. People talk about Chaos and his wagon being something to look into but I'm not seeing the votes constructed that way. It's all bs.

[TobyLoby]

I'm rethinking my Toby scum read.
Sometime I think she's just asking questions to look productive, then I read this page and I wonder if she just doesn't post thoughts all the time.

Skelda: why did you vote for Toby?

She was just someone who I didn't get particularly Town vibes from and I really didn't like the people who had votes. I am really not confident that she is scum, though.

Of the people with votes, I am most likely to go back to Beli. I really do not think that Chaos is scum. I guess I could see acryon, not really sure. But I am not in the mood to die Day 1 again.

At the bottom. Not a read exactly, but there is a build up to the vote.

farside, what are your thoughts on my post 325 about Skelda?

[TobyLoby]

Skelda is very consistent. I can't find inconsistencies with him.

I haven't said much about Chaos, but I have no good read on him aside from some possible association with scrambles. I did some meta research and he has about one scum game and it didn't reveal much to me. I guess I can see his vote on farside being some concerned townie but idk. I really don't know what to think about him.

Acyron, what makes Skelda and his replies seem scummy to you?

[TobyLoby]

it does make you question how someone (who they don't think his scum) wagon got disbanded a little too easily

[TobyLoby]

I sort of agree with this in theory, except that townreading scum is the actual worst thing you can do. So by townreading a whole bunch of people, you are probably letting some scum in. That is what is wrong with having a bunch of townreads.

It may be the worst thing, but is it what Skelda is doing? You have to assume Skelda is scum to begin with.

[TobyLoby]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Skelda

Out of the possible three leading wagons, Skelda has done done something that has made me think possible scum.

I'd be up possibly up for a scrambles quicklynch though. A counter-counter-counter wagon of sorts.

[TobyLoby]

Do you think Skelda is doing it to try and buddy up and appear town then?

[TobyLoby]

These are some pathetic wagons.

[TobyLoby]

As for myself, I'm going to put my vote on Skelda. I didn't vote there after the last exchange because I wanted to step away to lose the emotion of the situation. My opinion hasn't changed, so I'll go ahead and put my vote.

VOTE: Skelda

But what about this particular exchange? This reads to me as you felt Skelda was scum due to your last exchange with her which occurred sometime during the NakedJogger vote and Skelda's vote on you.

[TobyLoby]

A vote for you would be so worthless right now. This is not the time to vote for your favourite possible scum.

[TobyLoby]

If we want to go all in, we should get a wagon on Amy going instead.

[TobyLoby]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Beli

[TobyLoby]

My Beli vote has been noted.

[TobyLoby]

this wagon is fly.

[TobyLoby]

everyone note scrambles didn;t say "cool" kids. Because we aren't.

[TobyLoby]

I assume your vote changed because you thinking I am pressuring the Skelda vote...

No.

[TobyLoby]

acyron, beli's blood will be on your hands.

can you take the heat?!?!

[TobyLoby]

Actually, when I voted it was 4-4. When acyron voted it was 5-4.

[TobyLoby]

I think acyron is scum

please, hold in your shock everyone.

I don't trust any of these lynches.

[TobyLoby]

Beli came on earlier and didn't say anything. Will he

truly

miss being killed?!

[TobyLoby]

acyron, beli's blood will be on your hands.

can you take the heat?!?!

Gladly. He has provided nothing to the game besides his over-the-top farside tunneling. His efforts to speak like he's from another century actively muddle discussion. His flippant attitude in regards to scum show he doesn't seem to care what's going on. Then his last post just completely sucks.

I'm not happy about my lack of scumreads this late in the Day. There's

got

to be something usable here...

Come on.

You know who else has a lack of scum reads to work with in the late day?

Skelda

badaboomboodssshhhh

[TobyLoby]

That is how I roll, mang. I'm out of that dweebie questioning phase and now I'm just rolling it high on the Beli wagon.

*takes a puff of cigarette*

[TobyLoby]

Beli, I just hammered you big time. you scum bro?

[TobyLoby]

I can't stand the suspense Beli?!

[TobyLoby]

Hope you're not town

[TobyLoby]

everyone huddle together and let's wifom what this means.

[TobyLoby]

CKD (I see you online) and farside, do you think he was being genuine?

And you're right farside, I am wrong about that point concerning Skelda.

[TobyLoby]

There was no hammer, by the way.

[TobyLoby]

Yeah yeah. I love you too. Glad to have you in the game.

But do you think he actually thought he was lynched and is genuine?

[TobyLoby]

Why do you have a town read on him?

[TobyLoby]

Everyone coming into the thread. Do you believe Beli being genuine when I said he was lynched and afterwards he said this:

Aw. Well, good luck

D1 mislynches aren't so bad, you can still pull through.

?

Go to page 18 to read the conversation.

Beli is not lynched btw.

[TobyLoby]

UNVOTE:

Hmm

[TobyLoby]

I don't think the Chaos lynch would go through even if I did jump on (and I don't know if I would). I'm at a standstill here.

[TobyLoby]

It felt maybe disingenuous to me, but I get what CKD is saying.

[TobyLoby]

I have a "I don't know" read on him.

[TobyLoby]

acryon, any opinion on Beli coming in?

[TobyLoby]

farside, what is your read on Skelda and Beli?

[TobyLoby]

By the way, he came on earlier than when I said. I forget when. Before my "trolling" I guess.

CKD has been pushing Skelda all this time and on this page.

[TobyLoby]

Things we can safely assume:

Beli did see a VC at some point.

puff.

Beyond that:

If he actually read the last page he should have seen CKD and scrables talking about people joining the wagon.

[TobyLoby]

What are you saying? Do you think CKD is scum tunneling?

[TobyLoby]

Been eating pizza.

acyron, brief what are your reads for those on each wagon? brief brief reads

[TobyLoby]

Okay what would you guys do if you came into the thread and someone told you that you were hammered?

farside isn't on one of those wagons.

NakedJogger, what do you think of Beli's reply when I told him he was hammered?

[TobyLoby]

I think that vote probably closes the deal on Skelda as I don't see anyone except Snuggly or Ranon (I doubt it on Ranon) coming back to make the numbers for a vote on Beli if both farside and I were to go that way.

[TobyLoby]

VOTE: Skelda

That is L-1

[TobyLoby]

I think that vote probably closes the deal on Skelda as I don't see anyone except Snuggly or Ranon (I doubt it on Ranon) coming back to make the numbers for a vote on Beli if both farside and I were to go that way.

well, unless acyron comes back I guess.

I wish more people commented on the Beli hammer fiasco.

[TobyLoby]

Apparently Skelda has come on about 1 hr 20 min~ ago and but didn't say anything \ /

[TobyLoby]

Will you be on to wait for a claim?

[TobyLoby]

I totally skipped past the hour part. Whoopsy.

[TobyLoby]

Did anyone catch any hints or crumbs that Dry-fit was a Jailkeeper or PR in general?

[TobyLoby]

Belisarius

, You didn't state many of your reads yesterday. Who do you read scum and who do you read town?

Chaos

, who are your scum reads and why?

[TobyLoby]

Also, why be afraid of those people, Belisarius?

[TobyLoby]

Why do you think of farside as threatening?

[TobyLoby]

Isn't it obvious?

I haven't been playing Mafia for seven years. You haven't been playing Mafia for seven years.

Yeah, yeah, I know, playing a lot doesn't mean playing well, but you don't play for seven years without picking up a thing or two.

farside couldn't start or get on a wagon that got anywhere yesterday. I don't see what is to be feared about that or her at the very least in this game. I'm just assuming you don't think she is obvtown.

I feel like right now if one of Beli/CKD/Chaos is scum then so are the other two.

You seriously believe the *entire* scumteam piled onto one lynch?

Have you ever been scum before?

It can and does happen: VCA Stats Here.

[TobyLoby]

The Skelda lynch shouldn't have happened, and I don't know why it did.

I feel like right now if one of Beli/CKD/Chaos is scum then so are the other two.

Chaos was the largest BW in the game at one point (I think, correct me if I'm wrong). CKD came in and tried his hardest to change to a different bandwagon in order to avoid a scumbuddy getting lynched. He was successful.
Pretty early on in the game Chaos blatantly sheeped one of Beli's votes within two posts. Chaos is fairly new, so it's something that's not too unexpected.
In-thread they don't really pay too much attention to one another.

A Beli lynch should've happened yesterday. We were close. Let's make it happen now.

Vote: Belisarius

You just gave a bunch of reasoning of why Chaos and CKD are prob scum but not so much Beli. Why aren't you voting either of them over Beli?

Where did you disappear off to last day btw.

[TobyLoby]

Or really, why the vote for Beli over either of them is a better question.

[TobyLoby]

Why not vote for the scum making the list instead of the potential scum in the list if that's the case?

farside, my initial theory yesterday was a scum acyron was maybe trying to get off of a town chaos lynch yesterday and then avoid being on the wagon that looked to go forward. His vote on Skelda did make that lynch final though, so it can't at the very least be entirely true. I disagree with him that the Skelda lynch had the most potential though, as I held some doubt on Beli and you seemed to have more of a town read on Skelda than Beli. I'll go more into things later tonight.

[TobyLoby]

Beli, do you agree with Amy's and farside's read on Chaos?

[TobyLoby]

Spoiler: CKD quotes to Bel and stuff

Come to think of it, the Rule of Three applies here.

VOTE: curiouskarmadog

Wait what? Did you even read the game yesterday?

oh I get it reverse karma.

Alright, CKD, you win a sheep.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Skelda

I'm not happy about my lack of scumreads this late in the Day. There's

got

to be something usable here...

oh wait you did read the game.

--

So why a Dry fit kill?

His vote was on Chaos before he flipped to Bel (then Skelda) just to get a lynch.

Maybe farside is right.

Still think Bel is town…

Vote Chaos

CKD, this doesn't make sense to me. You shit on Bel and then call him town. What was the point of this conversation with him?

Tell me why you believe Bel is town.

Tell me why you believe Chaos is scum before his entrance today. Why do you think scum didn't kill farside who was also on Chaos as well?

[TobyLoby]

I don't see a scum CKD subtly bashing a scum buddy Beli lynch while voting for [???] Chaos. I think he'd want Beli to look town, not push him like that, call him town, and then avoid the wagon. That's more scum to town tactics.

Does anybody think both Belisarius and curiouskarmadog could be scum together?

Not me. I thought CKD had put together a case on skelda most seemed to follow. Scum is on that skelda wagon.

But if Beli is scum, then CKD did a good job of badgering me off of his wagon.

I thought you left his wagon because you believed there wasn't the traction needed for a Beli wagon?

[TobyLoby]

@Chaos

, do you think I am scum?

Beli, you aren't making sense to me. Why a CKD vote over Amy?

VOTE: Beli

[TobyLoby]

How would his badgering (of you and who?) mean there would not be enough traction for the wagon to continue?

[TobyLoby]

I don't understand what you are saying and how it applies to the traction of a ~4 hours before deadline wagon. Me, you, farside and ultimately Chaos were the deciding votes for last day's lynch.

@Mod: Requesting a prod of Ranon please. Thanks!

Prodded

[TobyLoby]

I don't think there was an equivalency to that going on.

I did look back and I was mistaken by how the votes looked at that point in time when you switched at 5-5. I think farside would have gone over to Beli over Skelda though. Even so, I don't know how we would have made up that last vote on Beli if things went that way.

Hmmy hmm hms.

I prefer talking in real time to people and I know you've said it all already - but just to clarify, do you believe CKD is town? Any changes in thoughts if Beli flips scum? What Let's say we lynch Beli today and he flips town. What do you think of CKD's alignment then?

[TobyLoby]

Why do you think a Beli town flip = a CKD def town flip?

[TobyLoby]

i don't see ckd as totally defending beli last day. i took it more to be arguing with acyron and trying to pin him down. although, i guess he did state his belief in Beli not lying when asked about the hammer stuff, but it's not like hypothetical scum ckd could easily back off of Skelda at that point without looking awks anyway.

Why a CKD vote over Amy?

Because gin.

see, this is a problem right here.

[TobyLoby]

*passes over the whiskey*

Then why are you voting him, friend?

[TobyLoby]

You and I both know gin won't get us offa this train.

[TobyLoby]

Chaos please answer my awesome questions, tnks.

[TobyLoby]

okay talking time. everyone can join in.

A hypothetical scum Chaos comes in and does a little spiel on Skelda being town and he can't see why Skelda is scum. Note that Skelda was big time defending him at this time. It's a few hours before the day ends and the votes are Beli vs Skelda. Chaos comes on and does a spiel on how he can't understand the wagon on Beli and then votes Skelda for scumminess. To get this point out of the way, also note that Chaos did not mention Beli before this point and Beli didn't talk about Chaos lots. There was no defending on Beli's part.

What is his scum motivation for his Skelda vote over Beli?

[TobyLoby]

A small correction in what I wrote, Chaos said he didn't see how Skelda could be scum, but it still indicates he thought Skelda was town.

That is an interesting question, farside. What it means is that Chaos had to make a conscious decision to leave his prior town read to then vote them later. At the very least this means Chaos wasn't just going through the motions. I can see town and scum motivation for doing so, but which one is it and why?

[TobyLoby]

There are other things to consider with the scenario, but I don't want to put words in other people's mouths until more people respond.

[TobyLoby]

p sure farside meant beli and chaos

CKD,

okay talking time. everyone can join in.

A hypothetical scum Chaos comes in and does a little spiel on Skelda being town and he can't see why Skelda is scum. Note that Skelda was big time defending him at this time. It's a few hours before the day ends and the votes are Beli vs Skelda. Chaos comes on and does a spiel on how he can't understand the wagon on Beli and then votes Skelda for scumminess. To get this point out of the way, also note that Chaos did not mention Beli before this point and Beli didn't talk about Chaos lots. There was no defending on Beli's part.

What is his scum motivation for his Skelda vote over Beli?

[TobyLoby]

i also thought your secret theory had to do with farside scumeroonies. or was there a glitch in my hint hint wink wink sensors?

[TobyLoby]

farside, I don't think he will answer me until you do your part.

I will just wait here tapping my foot waiting for responses.

daylight is running out though. more pro responses from other people please. i am salivating at royal's upcoming in-depth analysis of everyone the most tbh.

[TobyLoby]

ckd do you believe chaos is actually scum y/n?

do you believe farside is scum y/n?

if this is some playaround or test then it is taking way too long and everyone is mainly standing around picking their bums not caring.

[TobyLoby]

Okay let's talk game once more.

Few things.

a) Why do you think a (scum) Chaos voted Skelda the defender over Beli the whatever?
b) What is farside's scum motivation for voting for (scum) Chaos when the wagon was waning?

Baby me through this.

[TobyLoby]

You think Chaos looks obscum?

[TobyLoby]

What makes him look obvscum to you?

[TobyLoby]

Way too scummy to be scum is how way too scummy scum stay alive.

[TobyLoby]

Acyron, explain in your own words the instances where Chaos has looked obvscum to you.

[TobyLoby]

Like, use quotes. Chaos has a small iso. I want to see all the quotes of his that you read as obvscum.

[TobyLoby]

I just want to make this clear and I will come off as a little meanie toby. I am being a meanie, but not being mean spirited.

I asked for obvscum posts by Chaos and you give me like every post man.

[TobyLoby]

including one you called him previously initially townieishie on.

i just feel like you have been arguing a chaos scum along with a chaos town.

[TobyLoby]

Chaos is way too scummy to be scum.
even now given day 2 he should have at least altered his play a bit, but he's still saying suspicious things. Like hia exchange with me for example.

This.

Like I read this and it's saying, "I think Chaos is town."

Way too scummy to be scum is how way too scummy scum stay alive.

Agreed, but it's also how newb/inattentive town get killed.

I read this as arguing for a Chaos town read.

I really hate the too scummy to be scum mentality.
I said it once (not here) I will say it a thousand freeking times.
There is a difference between giving reads and making bad comments and lying down doing fucking nothing.
One is bad town, the other is skating by scum.

And which category do you put Chaos in?

this is you questioning farside on her obv Chaos scum read.

but before this you've been leaning Chaos scum today.

no sense, man. one of the few people who think chaos is town and argues it comes in and suddenly you're like "iiidddkkkkk."

[TobyLoby]

All right I've thought about it.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Chaos

[TobyLoby]

given the above theory (Bel is scum, maybe on a team with Acryon) this vote count seems off.

Vote Count 2.03

Farside22: (1) NakedJogger
Belisarius: (4) Amy Farrah Fowler, acryon, TobyLoby, scrambles
Curiouskarmadog : (1) Belisarius
Chaoslord54: (2) Farside22, Curiouskarmadog

Not Voting: Snugglyduckling, Ranon, RoyalApe, Chaoslord54

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2014-09-26 16:55:00)

Mod Notes:
Ranon has a few more hours to pick up his prod or I will start looking for a replacement

Can you tell me how this seems off though?

Actually,

UNVOTE:

I need to think about Chaos more. I get what you are saying about Bel/acyron scum. But I can also see killing Dry-fit because they caught a whiff of him being a PR or they wanted to to add the fuel to two wagons. Question is, is Chaos at the level where he is able to realize, make the distinction, and play off the profit in saving a townie to be used as bait for tomorrow vs saving someone who had a town read on him and defended him?

[TobyLoby]

The issue with that theory is neither acyron nor bel are voting for chaos.

Hmm?

[TobyLoby]

I'm starting to think that no, Bel and Acyron are possibly not a team. I went in thinking that Acyron may be bussing Bel, but you do bring up an interesting point about the Chaos wagon. If acyron is scum with Bel and not with Chaos, him playing "Devil's Advocate" with Chaos being town doesn't ring right except for the case of Chaos scum in the team.

I can't see a Chaos + Farside scum team as I just don't see Chaos jumping onto farside's wagon like that or farside jumping onto the Chaos wagon after leaving mine when acyron joined. I see no reason for her to get off town me to get on scumbuddy him and add back the momentum to his wagon. I see a scum farside more likely to do that, but the why of a scum motivated farside to jump off my wagon doesn't come to me.

[TobyLoby]

What is your read on acyron, ckd? This is regardless of your reads on chaos and farside.

[TobyLoby]

To be clear, do think he's trying to seem like a pr?

[TobyLoby]

I thought you were saying that Beli is wifoming about being a PR.

[TobyLoby]

Sure, it could be said as scum. Fake aggression. However, I'll concede that saying 'suck a bag of dicks' is rather unusual wordinh for someone so flippant.

What do you think of #556? A self meta argument and flowchart followed by "I welcome al votes on me" seems unnatural. The comments to the right of the flowchart are unusual;

the fact he emphasises he's 'shit' as town and we should 'drink away our pain' because he 'got a PR'

strikes me as ingenuine and coming from scum.

I did take that as you thinking he is at the very least hinting at a PR.

so why would he be disinterested as scum, if it's a role he prefers playing as?

I've seen him say this too. I also read from regfan he is lazy scum.

Would you call what he is doing as being interested scum?

[TobyLoby]

Bel's play doesn't make sense from a townie or scum perspective. Theoretically, either alignment should want to stay alive and lynch almost anybody else.

The scum Beli theory that makes the most sense is if the scum team went into today believing the Bel lynch may be inevitable. It makes sense for why he pointed out Amy as scum and then voted CKD based on it (someone who he sheeped last day) and then not do much else. It makes sense for why he is wifoming the hell out of having a pr today (and also for hope of catching a pr).

If this is the case, I expect the scum team go into today with one or both other scum bussing Beli or have one at least play the "he may still be scum but x is scummier" angle. I'd also expect the scum bussing scum Beli to be start early on framing who among town is the best scum buddy association. Even just looking at Beli's play, there is no reason not to at least at some point latch onto those potential townie point cashcow udders. The other possibility is that scum are just not around. Very possible.

I don't think Beli and CKD are scum together in any scenario. CKD putting Beli down while voting another player and then calling Beli town doesn't make sense to me. Why would a scum CKD want to help further a wagon on a scum buddy while then voting the other? If you're going to dramallama it up about Beli is town, you don't bash the guy while whining on another wagon. That is more of a scum move to pull on a townie by pushing them and staying far back.

[TobyLoby]

If Beli is town, I suspect those who are making connections to others or who are staying for unclear reasons far away. You can easily go, whelp! But hey ckd and chaos are linked together still maybe!

The thing for me though is how much Beli is not making sense. There is bored and then there is not making sense with his CKD vote when it looks like he should be voting Amy. I'm also a bit suspect of his hints of prness. There is too much wifom to work with here urgh. This is not making sense. That kill does not make sense for a scum Beli. It can make sense if the team believes Beli can be saved by town looking at the kill and latching on. A scum beli and farside team maybe could fit with farside recently looking into a Beli scum. A Beli/Chaos team trying to set up Chaos to not have the numbers to vote for him later. Most of the connections between the two weren't made

None of this makes sense. And the thing I hate most is that Beli's weird activity may be worth the lynch on wifom alone. I don't like to play with wifom.

[TobyLoby]

*most of the connections between Chaos and Beli weren't made until today.

[TobyLoby]

I can see a Chaos/Acyron/Amy or Royal scum team. The Chaos wagon was losing traction by the time CKD came on, so that point by Amy is an exaggeration. It also only had like, three votes then. It also explains Acyron's off and on read of Chaos. Royal because he's the only one that fits in with both Acyron and Chaos for me but I don't know. Acyron's and Royal's interaction has been weird. Ranon/Riddle also fits, but I have a theory on that idk.

Out of any possible replacement, I would love a Chaos one. Or to have him be more active. I'm not reading him well.

[TobyLoby]

Okay for starters I'm going to

Unvote

Looking through, it's hard for me to pinpoint everyone I think is scum but here are my leads at the moment.

I feel that AMY is definitely town and that unlike my original thoughts that Farside is town as well.

I don't quite see the logic on why people are thinking Skelda is scum because the logic that he brings up in 248 makes sense IMO but his post in 279 does come off a little fishy although I would not exactly call it scummy.

Now the person I think comes off the scummiest IMO is nakedjogger. Nakejogger had been pushing for a RoyalApe lynch for most of D-1 and then out of nowhere votes Farside with no explanation? That seems scummy to me.

Okay so I was looking through what I miss and I do not understand why there is such a big wagon building on Belisarius...I mean the cases against him are not put together very well and the speed it built after there has not really been a large wagon on him the entire day is alarming.

Vote:Skelda

The biggest reason for my vote against Skelda is for this reasoning..Skelda did not bring up a lot of reasons for his vote on Beli and his comments and willingness to be lynched in 346 and the way he sounds with his last posts and lack of posting now here just seems scummy to me.

Chaos hates people not voting with reasoning. Beli is not voting with any good reasoning. Beli is town. Why? Also, apparently my case has been horrible against Beli. I have totally never had a case on Beli at least when he said it. I voted him without reason last game day. That actually is consistent(!) though heh.

Amy vote is weird. I don't know what to think about that. I feel like sometimes Chaos is subtly denouncing things because of my tie to them but his Amy vote is what I was hinting at when questioning her. Other than not voting for her, I would swear he was following me.

[TobyLoby]

I am not voting anyone while thinking on this. If you don't like it then you can ~vote me~.

[TobyLoby]

Scrambles, what are you getting at?

I don't think Chaos is the type to completely ignore, but I definitely don't see him as the type to vote for a scum buddy out of no where. So nix Amy.

[TobyLoby]

you qualify for your own scum tell.

[TobyLoby]

I think a scum CKD is separate from a scum Beli. There's no use for me to theorize while doing nothing else and nothing else happening.

VOTE: Beli

L-2

[TobyLoby]

Riddle, I don't think you answered my question before.

Would you call what Beli is doing as being interested scum?

[TobyLoby]

Beli, why CKD over Amy when you first voted?

[TobyLoby]

You followed that lynch so CKD must have made good reasoning at the time. How is it any different today? Do you think he had an agenda for pushing a Skelda lynch over any others on the table?

The other point I'm also getting at, is that you based your vote on (scum) Amy listing one scum between you, Chaos, or CKD. Instead of voting for scum Amy herself, you voted for a possible association with Amy. Buddying came afterward. Assuming an Amy scum in the first place, why vote an association over the assumed scum Amy?

[TobyLoby]

Amy. Do you think that comment of Beli seems townie, or townier than Beli-usual to you?

I don't think this is Beli having fun or being interested. Could be lazy scum Beli, but I don't think it's Beli being interested similar to how it looked like he was having fun at the start of D1 maybe with a few days within D2. Now we're dealing with a given up Beli.

[TobyLoby]

Amy. Do you think that comment of Beli seems townie, or townier than Beli-usual to you?

Um... neither. It's just a post made by Beli. I'm pointing out that he may have done his case some favours and made it townie if he had gone about it a better way. But put this way I'd say it hasn't got much behind it.

idk. Your suggestion is based on an action that there is some basis of being town in it. That doing it in greater quantities and in a better way (whatever that is) would result in townie reads among people. It has to start at town-something basis.

What did you hope to accomplish by telling him that?

Riddle, can you quote what you're referring to in the first post of CKDs? That one in particular wasn't obvious.

[TobyLoby]

@Everyone:

Why do you think Dry-fit was killed?

[TobyLoby]

you don't deal with a lot of any speculation, man.

Riddle, that quote.

[TobyLoby]

I'm not a precog, I'm just reading the gamestate. It's going to be me or Chaos for sure today, and I sure as hell ain't voting Chaos even to save my own life -- he might vote me to save himself; hence, I'm the more likely to eat rope today.

A flashwagon on CKD would be nice, but it's not my birthday.

Why do you think a player you are town reading would do the bold?

He's read his role PM. He hasn't read mine. Mathematically, it's the sensible course of action.

Doesn't it make sense for you to vote Chaos to save your own life by your own logic and given the position you're in?

[TobyLoby]

Or rather, make sense for you to at least hold that option open.

[TobyLoby]

Mostly everyone on the Beli wagon has decided. Mostly everyone on the Chaos wagon have decided. You are speaking of an audience of maybe one, if that, who is deciding between the two. With a day left to go I don't see what this will accomplish.

[TobyLoby]

I wrote down a whole spiel, but who in your mind are the four or five individuals.

Farside,

Spoiler: farside quote

The other point I'm also getting at, is that you based your vote on (scum) Amy listing one scum between you, Chaos, or CKD. Instead of voting for scum Amy herself, you voted for a possible association with Amy.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other, and I wasn't as certain of my scumread as you seem to believe.

If I'd seen something scummier before the buddying solidified my read, I would have changed my vote. Since that didn't happen, vote stands. It's not mysterious. It was that or sit in the not voting pile until I had an enormous wagon on me and everything I do looks self-serving.

why are you so certain you'll be gone?

I'm not a precog, I'm just reading the gamestate. It's going to be me or Chaos for sure today, and I sure as hell ain't voting Chaos even to save my own life --

he might vote me to save himself;

hence, I'm the more likely to eat rope today.

A flashwagon on CKD would be nice, but it's not my birthday.

Why do you think a player you are town reading would do the bold?

I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at, but Skelda offered to do the same thing yesterday and Beli whom you are not voting also offered to do the same. Do you think it's scummy for someone to vote another for self preservation purposes only?

[TobyLoby]

@Mod: Can we get more time due to the recent Chaos replacement?

[TobyLoby]

I don't know how much to take from Beli's play yesterday. There was a distinct point where he seemed to give up when he called Amy scum and voted for CKD and the rest was probably wifom.

I looked up Beli's meta and he's okay with busing. He doesn't seem to bus outright early though, and not without there being reason to do so. This kinda makes me want to eliminate farside.

Beli mainly communicated and responded to me yesterday. This makes me think he may have actively engaged more so with townies. But for d1 play, this kinda makes me want to eliminate Amy. Amy and farside were his main engagements and communications the first day.

[TobyLoby]

Acyron, you are free to provide me evidence, which would have to be meta evidence, that Beli is capable of actively avoiding adhering to a specific play. The only one I meta read out of that was farside too. Do you believe farside deserves more looking into?

[TobyLoby]

I just strongly dislike meta-reading, as in my experience, it does more to misdirect than anything else. This applies doubly for Beli IMO, because at the very least his slot in this game was a bit of a wild-card page-to-page. He just seems to me like someone who, as a target of it, would make meta-analysis even worse.

People were discussing his meta yesterday.

Titus is trying to wade through what the wifom means today

But my metaing on what sort of busing Beli does is that gets your goat?

[TobyLoby]

I'm not metaing his interactions with Amy. I was looking at his interactions with others vs his interaction with me. I've already said that.

Beli's play D2 is probably mostly all wifom from the point he voted CKD while basing it on Amy scum. The best of his interactions when he wasn't trying to purposely throw the town into wifom land was D1.

When you look at wifom for intent, you have to make a decision on what Beli may or may have been doing. What was he obscuring? Was he obscuring anything? Did he mention his buddies for wifom? Did he not mention them at all? You think his wifoming with Amy leads to her being scum. Titus thinks something else that was probably wifom Beli said makes it likely he didn't include scum in his own list.

I've had a scum buddy, having obviously going to be lynched the next day, have their plan be that day to call me town and argue it to their death. Did that happen here with Chaos? I don't know.

farside, I'll get back to you on that in a moment.

[TobyLoby]

I was going to link the games I looked at, but I don't have a lot of time left to dedicate looking them up again and linking right now. From memory, Beli would mention his partners in reads lists and I know at least in one game he discussed with someone how he thought one buddy wasn't scum. So he wouldn't totally avoid them based on that. I would say he didn't tend to actively engage them, if anything.

Beli didn't make a reads list or interacted with a lot of people at all D1, so there is not a lot to glean there. It's probably best you re-look up meta if you're interested and see how your thoughts compare.

Right now my two top suspects are Chaos and Acyron based on wagon play D1. I'll talk more about this and reads in general later today. I have some conflicting opinions I want to sort out.

[TobyLoby]

See, here is the problem with meta. Unless you are looking at a larger sample size, you're essentially comparing apples to oranges. I would much rather look at an analysis of those he did interact with day 2 in this game, and how those people responded, and see what turns up. I don't have time for that today, but I will get to it tomorrow if someone hasn't already.

Out of all of his play, you decide to act on the part of it that was obviously wifom.

It's all wifom. He was purposely wifoming yesterday. He was probably wifoming about being a doctor and saving you N1 now that I know he is scum. I have reason to suspect that he either knew dry-fit was a pr or he was trying to fake being a pr in his conversation with dry-fit yesterday when he mentioned something about protecting.

You have to arbitrarily decide what about his wifom is useful. This isn't looking into how other people responded to his wifom, it's looking into his wifom like a crystal ball hoping to get a golden read.

You don't see the issue?

[TobyLoby]

I am sitting here, slack-jawed

, trying to comprehend any possible reason why you would have developed such a ridiculous personal tic, and coming up blank. Maybe, maybe, it's situationally relevant. As a blanket policy, it's playing against your wincon as any wincon and is against almost every mod's ruleset.

I'l address the rest when I have time but, I'm sorry, I have to objectively point out that this is THE WORST THING and you need to really, really rethink it.

I'm sure you weren't.

[TobyLoby]

Amy, saying you hammer as scum at L-1 creates wifom due to you possibly not hammering at that point before we even get to that point.

[TobyLoby]

Well, you already said it's wifom. But bleh.

My point is acyron, you are possibly heading into shit with either territory. I don't see engaging in wifom to be any better than meta reading someone's busing.

[TobyLoby]

I admit I am taking this personally for whatever reasoning. Blah blah.

[TobyLoby]

I don't think Chaos or CDB's content has been all too scummy. But I do think Chaos' actions are scummy given the flip.

At the end of D1, Chaos votes for not-scum read Skelda over Beli whom he didn't mention before. Skelda also defended Chaos prior. As I said earlier, this indicates that Chaos was not just going through the motions, town or scum. He had to make an active decision.

His vote:

Okay so I was looking through what I miss and I do not understand why there is such a big wagon building on Belisarius...I mean the cases against him are not put together very well and the speed it built after there has not really been a large wagon on him the entire day is alarming.

Vote:Skelda
The biggest reason for my vote against Skelda is for this reasoning..Skelda did not bring up a lot of reasons for his vote on Beli and his comments and willingness to be lynched in 346 and the way he sounds with his last posts and lack of posting now here just seems scummy to me.

Now take a look at his scum read on Nakedjogger,

Now the person I think comes off the scummiest IMO is nakedjogger. Nakejogger had been pushing for a RoyalApe lynch for most of D-1 and then out of nowhere votes Farside with no explanation? That seems scummy to me.

Among other things, you can conclude Chaos does not like naked votes or votes with little reasoning.

1. The Skelda wagon also built with speed when there was no wagon on him earlier that day
2. Beli did not bring up any reason to vote Skelda, and only voted Skelda as a sheep vote.
3. Beli also said he would vote himself to prevent a no lynch before his vote.

Beli hits almost all the same notes as Skelda, if not more. So why not-scum Skelda over Beli?

D2 rolls around.

1. Beli makes a vote on CKD after calling Amy scum. Beli only mentioned CKD once D1 and this read comes out of left field.

Chaos doesn't like votes with no reasoning. Chaos doesn't like votes with little reasoning. Chaos thinks Beli is town. This isn't consistent.

Discuss.

[TobyLoby]

What I can definitely mention in the interim, though, is that self-votes are scummy. Here's everything you could ever need to know about why, and why I want it brought up in particular when so many people were widely townreading you in those early stages of the Day.

This isn't arguing that it is scummy, only that it is scum who benefits from a self-vote. It is arguing that you shouldn't self vote as town because you get no benefit from it and later by others that it's anti town. It's an argument to stop town self-voting to help eliminate it as legitimate tool for scum.

[TobyLoby]

Riddle, commentary on what I said about Chaos please.

[TobyLoby]

There is no argument here about self-votes being useless, only whether or not they indicate scum or are scummy. I think someone after raising a fit and then voting themselves out of self pity is scummy. Doing it out of RVS is more of a mixed bag because both alignments will do it under the same circumstance. It's partly why there is a call to end it.

Riddleton, do you think Amy's self-vote makes her scummy? If yes, is there anything in particular about her self vote that you think is scummy, or do you think her self voting regardless is scummy?

[TobyLoby]

Scrambles, commentary on what I said about Chaos?

Why and how does CKD make a lot of sense to you?

[TobyLoby]

Regarding Amy,

Correct.

I feel no need to change my vote right now. Part of me wants Beli policy-lynched, because I can see he doesn't give a fuck about the game, and would do us a favour by getting out if he has no intention of helping town (and making two sentence posts without reasoning doesn't count). The policy part of the lynch wasn't there when I first voted Beli, but I'm done waiting for a rational post of any kind.

I thought this post was possibly a (scum) Amy gearing up for a Beli town lynch. As in, there was an other excuse available to her (Beli needing to be policy lynched anyway) after the (town) Beli flip. Obviously, this didn't happen and why I'm not following that.

Amy calling out Chaos and CKD as scum while voting for another person is something I see scum do to their scum buddies. They call them scum or scummy and then vote town. It's why I questioned her on why Beli vs them. Obviously, this is not a scenario that has occurred.

I do think Amy is town. I think a lot of what she's said has made sense and she has been consistent in her main scum reads.

[TobyLoby]

Regarding Amy,

Correct.

I feel no need to change my vote right now. Part of me wants Beli policy-lynched, because I can see he doesn't give a fuck about the game, and would do us a favour by getting out if he has no intention of helping town (and making two sentence posts without reasoning doesn't count). The policy part of the lynch wasn't there when I first voted Beli, but I'm done waiting for a rational post of any kind.

I thought this post was possibly a (scum) Amy gearing up for a Beli town lynch. As in, there was an other excuse available to her (Beli needing to be policy lynched anyway) after the (town) Beli flip. Obviously, this didn't happen and why I'm not following that.

Amy calling out Chaos and CKD as scum while voting for another person is something I see scum do to their scum buddies. They call them scum or scummy and then vote town. It's why I questioned her on why Beli vs them. Obviously, this is not a scenario that has occurred.

I do think Amy is town. I think a lot of what she's said has made sense and she has been consistent in her main scum reads.

So you do think that Amy's threat to self-vote in her recent post is scummy, but she is town overall?

I think it's scummy wifom as she said she'd so it as scum and if she doesn't what then(?), but that doesn't necessarily make her scum because of it.

[TobyLoby]

I said, after I unvoted Beli and voted and unvoted Chaos, that I think Dry-fit may have also been killed for a whiff of a pr or to fuel both wagons. This was in response to you saying the kill did not make sense for Beli scum but it made sense for Chaos/farside scum.

What do you think of my Chaos post?

I really can't tell whether Acyron is scum who gets lightly bussed but no one votes, or Acyron is upcoming lynch bait.