Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)
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Wisdom Of the One
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Wisdom Of the One
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Wisdom Of the One
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Wisdom Of the One
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In post 24, Newbie wrote:
Honestly, I know people here do joke votes on the first day, but where I'm from, the time limit is much smaller so we get serious pretty quickly. Therefore, I will not throw out a vote until more people begin to post and things get rolling and then I can start analyzing.
Those "joke" votes can get things serious pretty quickly too, don't you think?-
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In post 36, wgeurts wrote:In post 22, Wisdom wrote:Because I like wagons. How do you feel about that?
Not good.
What are you going to do about that?-
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In post 52, VictorDeAngelo wrote:In post 34, acryon wrote:In post 32, VictorDeAngelo wrote:
I don't love when people seem to question others for trying to get information. Seems anti-town. He was trying to find out some information, whichtendsto be useful for scum-hunting. Wouldn't you agree?
Why not let him answer for himself?
And since when does questioning players this early become anti-town? Is it OK for Mathdino to get information but somehow scummy for me?
Mathdino tried to get information. You questioned why he wants to get information (which is obvious). That doesn't look like an attempt to get information on your part.-
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In post 53, VictorDeAngelo wrote:Also, I have new person I want wagon.
VOTE: wgeurts
Everyone get aboard.
Why?-
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In post 58, wgeurts wrote:In post 56, acryon wrote:In post 54, wgeurts wrote:In post 53, VictorDeAngelo wrote:
Also, I have new person I want wagon.
VOTE: wgeurts
Everyone get aboard.
Reasons for the wagon?
The only motivation I can think of is a reaction-test.
Well then you aren't thinking hard enough, because of the handful of posts you have had, they have certainly been suspect.
Care to explain what is suspect about them may I ask?
Also interested in knowing that @acryon-
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In post 89, wgeurts wrote:There was pressure on me?
I was litteraly basing a push off nothing to see how he would react. I then also applied a vote as to apply a little more pressure. If you look I used my vote as a tool, to pressure him. It wasn't a random
vote as it had a reasons (however weak) to be made.
That's all good and I liked how you put your money where your mouth was, but I don't get why you unvoted. Were you done pressuring me?-
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In post 90, Malakittens wrote:Her giving out the information about the sites etc doesn't feel like it's from a scum agenda.
She was asked to do that, I don't think it's telling.-
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In post 105, wgeurts wrote:In post 103, Wisdom wrote:In post 89, wgeurts wrote:There was pressure on me?
I was litteraly basing a push off nothing to see how he would react. I then also applied a vote as to apply a little more pressure. If you look I used my vote as a tool, to pressure him. It wasn't a random
vote as it had a reasons (however weak) to be made.
That's all good and I liked how you put your money where your mouth was, but I don't get why you unvoted. Were you done pressuring me?
Yes, you see my real goal as I ha already stated was to get us out RVS so we can actually scum hunt. It worked, the little exchange with you sparked us leaving the RVS page 2. This doesn't mean I think you're town however, that will depend off your future play.
The fact we did left RVS does not explain why you had to unvote me though. You could keep pressuring me until you found something telling either way, however small. Why not interested in that?-
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In post 142, wgeurts wrote:My vote on him was almost litteraly based off thin air.
This is not true. You said you voted me because you didn't like my wagoning. Why change your reason now?-
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In post 163, blindmewithscience wrote:Wow, I missed a ton...
Alright, so just to make sure that I'm understanding this all:
The arguments that I'm seeing ATM:
Wgeurts voted Wisdom supposedly to get us out of RVS. Now, he unvoted after receiving some pressure, but his weird behavior sparked lots of debate. Is suspected by Mathdino and Newbie (anyone I missed?)
Also, VictorDeAngelo appeared to question Mathdino's desire for a meta.
Is there anything else that I'm missing with everything that's been going on?
Pretty much. Do you have your own opinion on all of this?-
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wgeurts wrote:In post 164, Wisdom wrote:
Exactly, it was basically gut. We were in the RVS and wagons are common, seriously would you ever base a case off someone wagoning in early RVS?
Yes actually, there have been scum caught off their actions in RVS.
Your vote on me was not random. It had reasoning. You said that you didn't feel good about my wagoning and you voted me because it was not sitting well with you. That's not a random RVS vote. Which means that all of your claims that it was are you changing your story now. And I ask again, why are you doing this?
Also I love how I stated that there may be a weak link between Mathdino and Newbie and he's just gone and votes me with the reasons "he now looks a whole lot scummier.'.
Why is he wrong about that? Do you realize what setup we are playing?-
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Fixed messed up quoting
wgeurts wrote:
Exactly, it was basically gut. We were in the RVS and wagons are common, seriously would you ever base a case off someone wagoning in early RVS?
Yes actually, there have been scum caught off their actions in RVS.
Your vote on me was not random. It had reasoning. You said that you didn't feel good about my wagoning and you voted me because it was not sitting well with you. That's not a random RVS vote. Which means that all of your claims that it was are you changing your story now. And I ask again, why are you doing this?
Also I love how I stated that there may be a weak link between Mathdino and Newbie and he's just gone and votes me with the reasons "he now looks a whole lot scummier.'.
Why is he wrong about that? Do you realize what setup we are playing?-
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In post 174, wgeurts wrote:
I'm not changing my reasons, if we're going to face it it was really weak reasoning I even said that when I gave my reasons. What have I changed? I'm honestly confused.
I still don't get you.
You voted me because me liking wagons didn't sit well with you. Correct?
Now you're calling that reason weak?
And you've even said that you voted me out of thin air (randomly) which is clearly untrue.
So what exactly is the truth?-
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In post 190, wgeurts wrote:Also for all those people accusing me of making up the get out of RVS story, read these to quotes from me before I voted wisdom. Yeah, I had already said what I was intending to do.
That doesn't make it more town-motivated. You could have been preparing the ground for your "get out of RVS" act with those posts.-
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In post 196, wgeurts wrote:In post 193, Wisdom wrote:In post 190, wgeurts wrote:Also for all those people accusing me of making up the get out of RVS story, read these to quotes from me before I voted wisdom. Yeah, I had already said what I was intending to do.
That doesn't make it more town-motivated. You could have been preparing the ground for your "get out of RVS" act with those posts.
Doesn't that seem a little far fetched?
Why would scum try to get out of RVS and why would they force it themselves instead of blending in and going with the flow.
For towncred? "Look, I got us out of RVS, I'm totally town"-
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In post 213, VictorDeAngelo wrote:
Nor do I like Wisdom's 108 - particularly since he accused me of reaching and asking loaded questions earlier.
What is your issue with 108?-
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I define engage as "try to reach out to the other player and attempt to read them". Voting me and talking about me with others doesn't count as engaging.
My point with the question was that the way she did it looked like she was more interested in convincing others I'm scum than actually attempt to read me.-
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In post 235, Newbie wrote:Hey Wisdom, when wgeurts first unvoted you after voting shortly before, did you think it was pretty suspicious at that moment?
Not really, I found it weird that he was unvoting already but not necessarily scummy. Someone posted later about how it might have been scummy and it made me revisit it.-
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In post 244, wgeurts wrote:Yes, however whatever I say you'll lynch me anyway. Seriously, I'm town and I'd rather die quickly and give you info than let the scum further run the town.
This overreaction continues being on the borders between newbtown and scum faking a newb.
From what I've read, I don't think people are tunneling him that hard that such a reaction would be warranted. But then people new to the game often don't understand this.
Ugh. Dunno.-
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In post 251, FinnLaw wrote:I think its more townie feeling frustrated than scum thinking there going to be lynched so they self vote to try to show us only they wouldn't self vote if they were scum.
Normally I'd agree with this, but there have been multiple cases noted where wgeurts could have possibly been imitating a newbtown and being pretty good at it. So I don't think it's to be ruled out.-
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UNVOTE:
VOTE: wquerts
Yeah, I don't like this quick recovery. A moment earlier you were on the brink of suicide and now, after getting people to think you're a newbtown flailing and beg you to unvote yourself, you act like nothing happened. Conviniently, this all happens just as there's momentum on me building.-
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In post 260, TellTaleHeart wrote:
Just in case anyone's interested, this general trend of posting continuesrightup to the last few Wisdom posts, especially the one categorizing wgeurt's self-vote as some kind of grey-area "overreaction." There's a lot of wishy-washy-ness (I know that's not a word, but it's too late at night for me to care) on wgeurts when he's the clear favorite wagon today. I think he's not wanting to close off the possibility of joining the wagon but at the same time he doesn't want to look overeager.
Or I was just not sure whether we're watching scum theatre or an actual newbie.-
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In post 273, FinnLaw wrote:
Wisdom you said you don't think others are tunnelling that hard to warrant the reaction he gave. On the topic of tunnelling, would you say you have been tunnelling Wgeurt?
No? I was thinking there is a chance he's just a newbie so I refrained from scumreading him right away, but it just doesn't seem that likely after his recent posts. How am I tunneling?
Wisdom you didn't like Wgeurt's quick recovery, saying he acted like nothing happened. He un-vote because people (myself included) asked him to un-vote. The self vote was anti-town. You said he acted like nothing happened, to you how was he should he have acted?
Usually newbtowns who throw a tantrum and self-vote like he did refuse to listen to reason and just stubbornly insist that they should be lynched because they're a liability etc. wgeurts on the other hand completely recovered and started throwing suspicions towards the most suspected people, as if his "frustration" and the whole ordeal never happened. It just looks like the whole thing was just an act to gain the town's sympathy, and when he did so, he dropped it and went back to trying to push mislynches.
I just don't think it was natural, dunno how else to explain it.-
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Yup, I do have a history of tunneling. I am trying to cut down on it as much as I can lately because it's toxic for games.
Yes, if you look at the bigger picture, his unvoting is the better thing for town in general. I'm not arguing that. I am arguing that people who actually do get frustrated to the point of giving up just cannot come back that easily. There's pride, there's stubborness, there are a lot of things at stake. I've seen many people like this and I don't recall seeing such a quick recovery.
I don't think Mathdino or Newbie are under such heavy pressure right now. Victor has been the most popular target of suspicion since the beginning and lately me, a little before his posts happened. That's why I think that he's just targetting the two people that are under the most pressure at the moment.-
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In post 278, TellTaleHeart wrote:In post 265, Wisdom wrote:UNVOTE:
VOTE: wquerts
Yeah, I don't like this quick recovery. A moment earlier you were on the brink of suicide and now, after getting people to think you're a newbtown flailing and beg you to unvote yourself, you act like nothing happened. Conviniently, this all happens just as there's momentum on me building.
Furthermore, I don't like this vote because it foists a Catch 22 onto wgeurts. If he doesn't unvote, he continues to be anti-town and unproductive, but if he does unvote, that's considered condemning evidence.
I am not sure what you're saying here. He had unvoted already when I voted him.-
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Yeh. That's the natural action for a town player who broke down to that level.
Again, I am not arguing that it would be better for the town if he didn't unvote. That's a fact, obviously it's better when people don't self-vote in any context. I am talking about how unnatural his unvote and everything else he posted seem given the mindset he should be having at that moment.-
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In post 301, SilverWolf wrote:
You appear to be pushing wgeurts who is obviously newbtown VT as scum and you continue to do so regardless of how many times he answers for himself, and you are especially pushy about it whenever the pressure seems to come off him.
He is not obviously newbtown at all imo. He is faking it and it's working. There is a fine difference between actual newbtowns and scum faking them that you see with experience.
The above comment by you is blatantly sheeping a bad case on me by mathdino. His whole post was crap and not worth a response. He's making up reasons to find me scummy and he can take his fabricated case on me and shove it where the sun don't shine. The fact that the only thing you had to say about it was the above extremely weak comment, reminds me of scum blending in, being wishy-washy, and not wanting to commit to any stance that might come back to bite them later in the game.
I didn't think his case was bad, I found I agreed that I didn't remember anything notable from you this game, and ISOing you showed I remembered right. The only thing that was on my mind was your defence of me that was uncalled for.
I find this is a typical case of projection btw, as everything you're accusing me of are things you're doing yourself.-
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In post 302, SilverWolf wrote:
Do you honestly think scum would be so blatant about mason pushing? I can't believe even newbscum would do this.
Yeah, newbscum wouldn't. Scum that are using newbness to coast would. It was already explained.
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In post 305, SilverWolf wrote:
I disagree with this vote and reasoning behind it. I see nothing wrong with Wgeurts unvoting himself after several people asked him to do so. I don't think this is more likely to come from scum vs town.
This is, once again, looking at the surface. "unvoting is normal because he was asked to do so". No. It's weird that a newbtown listens so easily and complies with what people are telling him to do. It's weird that all of his frustration is gone and he's back to playing like nothing happened. His breakdown was not genuine, that's what that tells us.-
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In post 307, Newbie wrote:
I don't like this post. Wgeurt was asked repeatedly to unvote and make an actual case against someone. I actually agree with the case he made against you.
See above post. You're also looking at the surface and not beyond that. Being asked to do something does not mean that doing it is okay.-
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One of {SilverWolf, Newbie} is scum, both for this unwarranted WKing of wgeurts and for jumping on the easy wagon with rehashed reasoning. I don't think they both are, seeing as they voted together in a short time using the same reasoning.
@blindmewithscience Don't be shy, jump on my wagon too. Or are you afraid to commit?-
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In post 318, SilverWolf wrote:In post 316, Wisdom wrote:In post 305, SilverWolf wrote:
I disagree with this vote and reasoning behind it. I see nothing wrong with Wgeurts unvoting himself after several people asked him to do so. I don't think this is more likely to come from scum vs town.
This is, once again, looking at the surface. "unvoting is normal because he was asked to do so". No. It's weird that a newbtown listens so easily and complies with what people are telling him to do. It's weird that all of his frustration is gone and he's back to playing like nothing happened. His breakdown was not genuine, that's what that tells us.
Actually, I've had breakdowns like this in other games when I've been so damn frustrated with being tunnelled as scum when I am town that I have voted myself and threatened to replace out and been talked out of it and changed my mind and gone back to playing. This is something I can relate to as coming from a town mindset based on my own experiences with it which is probably why I see it as a newbtown action.
How easily did you change your mind? I am not arguing it can't be done, I am arguing it can't be done in a heartbeat.-
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In post 323, SilverWolf wrote:In post 319, Wisdom wrote:One of {SilverWolf, Newbie} is scum, both for this unwarranted WKing of wgeurts and for jumping on the easy wagon with rehashed reasoning. I don't think they both are, seeing as they voted together in a short time using the same reasoning.
Actually, my reasoning is pretty solid and I'm sticking with it for now. I am not really caring for the sheeping comments from mathdino or the comments from you either so if you guys get me lynched, I'll flip town, and be out of the game and then you guys can go back to leaving the new players alone-newbie, wegeurts, myself and actually go after real scum, unless of course one or both of you is scum doing this in which case, it would make sense.
I don't see where this comes from, do you feel like you'll be lynched? You have like one vote on you.
Also I don't get the "new players cannot be scum". Last I checked everyone has the same odds of drawing scum.-
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In post 324, Newbie wrote:
From my perspective, it looked like a townie who was honestly frustrated and wanted the other players to closely observe his wagon when he flips town. He didn't want his death to be in vain. I think posts like this, this, and this gave him good advice and I think he realized that, which in turn gave him hope.
And the first thing he did after all this frustration was "okay, unvote as requested. Nothing's wrong, we're going back to scumhunting. x and y are scum, this is why."
Trust me, this is not how newbtowns deal with frustration. They have their pride to consider, they even think that they'll look more scummy if they back down now that they went this far. It's not making any sense for a newbtown to comeback so easily. I know you probably can't understand me because you lack experience with newbtowns, but I replace into newbies all the time and see such behaviors.
And lol with the rehashed reasoning. If multiple people notice similar scummy things about you, then that can't be helped. My reasons for suspecting you are legit (I will admit that wgeurts' good points added onto it as well.).
Assume I am town for a second. How do you think your and SW's votes look, considering they consist of the same reasoning that has already been explained and also considering their timing?
I'm more leaning scum on SW than I am on you, but it's definitely one of you.-
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In post 325, blindmewithscience wrote:
So there's two sides to this town forming. There's mathdino and Wisdom, who are both suspicious of wgeurts and Silver. (VDA, based on his last post, appears to be part of this group). And then there's Finn, Silver, Newbie, TTH, Malakittens, and wgeurts, who believe that wgeurts' play was simply that of a frustrated townie (and are somewhat critical of Wisdom). Not_Mafia seems to be part of this group based on 274. And then acryon, who's been V/LA for this whole thing. (Also the Undertaker, because he's a no-show). At the moment, I'm leaning towards the former group, as wgeurts has been incredibly suspicious, but I want more info before completely deciding (aka when wgeurts responds to stuff). Including me, that's a 7-4 split, with 2 abstaining. Although this is all just a really big simplification of everything that's happened so far.
Was there a reason to this recap?