Open 670: Near Vanilla (Over)

[Hiraki]

Ego post. Will read soon.

[Hiraki]

VOTE: Music Box

Everyone seems to be making votes for silly reasons; however, you are the only one who made a vote with no other context provided. Why is that?

Also.

UNVOTE:

This is good posting.

Hey didn't ask you why you're inquiring into his thoughts but why you are trying to look busy

This seems to be normal Nebula posting, which will become useful later.

What did you hope to understand or learn from asking the questions you did? Does BBT's explanation give you a better read on BBT or anyone else?

I'm confused. Is this a small push on him for asking questions on Page 2?

52 feels super forced. No reason to have a reads list on Page 3 and Sesq even notes that in his post. I feel like that was there just so when I pointed it out he could come out and say "AH-HA! I SAID THAT!" Not to mention there are no reads in the reads-list.

78 is bad posting (not something I want to quote either) because it's IIoA. The only analysis comes in this form:

I think that he is using this EXCUSE to secretly sheep Little Uzi Vert and try to mislynch Music Box! Hawk is good because he has a reason! He said it in 58!! But Toto has a FAKE REASON !!!

Which is bleh.

MusicBox follow-up is good posting (96-98).

These are the most in-depth reads of All time.

Unless something changes (which I still have 10 or so pages to go) this is my vote for sure.

I kind of skipped the LUV posts (on accident) and since MoI is about to start a wall about this, here are my comments:

I'm voting for Music Box because her tone feels forced and I didn't like how she misrepresented Hawk.

I'd love to see scum actually make this argument but I think it's really not possible.

Lurker hunting less than 24 hours after a game has opened and no-one can possibly be due a prod?

You are a

much

better player than to take this bait.

Where am I coasting along, and couldn't the same argument be made for LUV?

It's almost like...he's scumreading BOTH of you!

Toto and Riley town.

Lil and sesq scum.

unvote

VOTE: Lil

When you address my arguments I will.

You guys have been arguing for 2-3 pages and this is what I get? I can't wait to see the Sesq wagon.

See neb? This is what opportunistic looks like.

Actually, I don't like this post at all. You push Nebula then people who jump on the wagon are opportunistic scum?
VOTE: sesq

Goodposting.

The bolded I find especially suspect.

This is a joke. How do people not get it? It's clear that he won't be in the townbloc if he isn't town. C'mon - I can't understand how I've doubted the TR on you twice now.

And that approach will take a couple of days and flips to figure out.

That's convenient.

Even if you think I have softclaimed, why would you point it out? That's anti-town.

goodposting.

"Lynching me would be bad" is a PR softclaim.

Lynching me would be bad.

I've softed guys!

FYI - at this point, I don't think Hawk and Toto have NOT been on different wagons. I don't have proof for that but that buddy buddy is strong.

248 is GREAT. NYD is a pure TR.

Just because you were playing as a secret alt doesn’t require you to lie about your alit status. And trying to handwave it as “required deception” is ludicrous.

I can understand the point you're coming from but I don't think it's necessarily scummy. Just self-motivated. I'm very concerned that you're implying that you don't understand the difference when you're asking Riley if she's an alt in your next post with the same status as Nebula was.

VOTE: KAIN TEEPS!!!!!!!!!

I'm never a big fan of your play but this lackluster. Can you do something?

tl;dr:

1. Lil Uzi Vert - Leaning Town
2. BlueBloodedToffee - Null
3. nydushermain - TOWN
4. MagnaofIllusion - Leaning Scum
5. KainTepes - Null
6. Lowell - Leaning Town
8. Riley Cake - /small/ Town Lean (would like to look at this in hindsight since earlyposting was bad but later posting is much improved)
9. Toto - Leaning Scum
10. Sesq - SCUM
11. nebula - TOWN
12. Music Box - Null
13. Elena Fisher - Null
14. Hawk - Null (would like to look into this since I think I missed/skimmed Hawkposting the most, especially in regards to Totoposting)

Vote: Sesq

[Hiraki]

Do you understand how minute the difference is?

[Hiraki]

Do you also understand that you are the only one voting him on the basis of a word difference?

[Hiraki]

No - it does matter. Why is it that no one else believes your argument? Do you have any idea or does it not matter?

[Hiraki]

Pedit: I agree with Toto here. How about you BBT??

Do you have any concern that you and Hawk have almost all of the same opinions?

Good point here, actually. Wasn't sure you had it in ya.

The counter-wagon is not a great source.

Soft-claims mean jack-shit.

I'd lynch a soft-claim in a heartbeat.

And BBT is voting...the counter wagon.

this isn't actually half bad

And Elena is focusing on...BBT and Lowell.

Agreement in word doesn't mean agreement in action.

[Hiraki]

What am I supposed to take away from that?

Here's your answer by a shy takeaway that it's just coincidence?

[Hiraki]

Since we to my mind have never crossed paths in game (unless you are yet another Alt … I so grow tired of them) I’d like clarity on that issue.

We've definitely crossed paths - I took a hiatus for the end of 2015 and most of 2016. Most of our games are from 2012.

Your point? I’m curious again about what this comment is supposed to convey since it is clear as mud.

"I can't read this person for a few days"

Yet instead he chose to specifically go out of his way to make it appear that he was not an Alt. That’s potentially seeking to specifically look to gain the “Newb Halo” when it isn’t warranted which is scummy play.

Why can't he just not be trying to sound like a player with a past meta? There are so many reasons that could be rather than what you're implying.

[Hiraki]

you accidentally messed up some of the ordering on quotes, because there's a bunch of stuff out of place and that just makes zero sense, notably your response to my 104 and Magna's 107.

Well, if you read what I wrote...

I kind of skipped the LUV posts (on accident) and since MoI is about to start a wall about this, here are my comments:

So yes, I did go out of order but it's not like you're implying.

But that says a lot about what I wrote because your arguments against it is that it's bad, not why - just that it's bad.

Let me take this very slowly:

First of all, you quote my sarcastic response to Lowell

Correct - I did. Your response to nothing was something - that's a big scumread of mine and considering that my read didn't change, it's proven to be correct.

Post 129 has already been debated before

Does this preclude me from giving my own thoughts about it?

and for Post 144 he was asking for more elaboration only on my townreads, which I wasn't giving him until he actually debated my points.

I love being a baby too, I guess.

I'll redo a readlist pretty soon here, but other than this you just apply "goodposting" to some pro-neb, anti-me stuff.

It's almost like I TR people who make good arguments! What should I do? TR people for making bad posts?

You're really not posting any strong arguments for your vote on me here. Better play, please.

This the annoyance. Instead of refuting my arguments, you just say they're bad. I have no intentions of "playing better" if I have to meet your crappy standards.

[Hiraki]

I refuted your arguments; you decided not to respond to them.

[Hiraki]

2) Where did I not respond

Your last post to me literally talks about 1 / 4 of the people that are on your side believing you about this slip thing.

You ignored the other 3. Does that mean you concede that your argument, while may have some very far off basis, is not appealing to many people?

Well, you kind of need arguments to refute...

OK Mister baby. Here's the spoon feed right into your mouth this

one

time.

Here is a concentrated list of why I am scumreading you so you don't have to read in a game about reading, creating arguments, and refuting them.

1) Responding to something that garners no attention:

Correct - I did. Your response to nothing was something - that's a big scumread of mine and considering that my read didn't change, it's proven to be correct.

I'm quoting just so you know that the information has always been there.

2) Continuation of 1 where he takes an accusation seriously (there's NO implication that this could even possibly be a joke this time) that is hypocritical in nature:

Where am I coasting along, and couldn't the same argument be made for LUV?

You've already stated that Lowell's posting is not very detailed. Lowell has not made any big splashes between these two posts. However, now you are taking him seriously because...?

Additionally, while you do ask for sources, you then shift the blame onto another player as if Lowell should just scumread both of you. Again, here are the quotes for the baby:

It's almost like...he's scumreading BOTH of you!

Toto and Riley town.

Lil and sesq scum.

unvote

VOTE: Lil

3) Opportunistic

I will admit this was not expressly in my former post due to editing but I had more than enough to warrant a vote without this content.

See neb? This is what opportunistic looks like.

Actually, I don't like this post at all. You push Nebula then people who jump on the wagon are opportunistic scum?
VOTE: sesq

As I stated, this was a good post by Toto. In current review, this will bring up more inquiries for Toto.

See neb? This is what opportunistic looks like.

Getting some bad vibes with these two.

This is a bad post - why on earth would you just flatout call two people that agree with you opportunistic? In review, these two people are:

A) Toto (

again, I will revisit this in a futurepost

)

B) Kain_Tepes

If you want to be fair, I can agree with B to an extent. But A? Here's what you've said about Toto in the past.

Toto - RVS vote, then "I'm waiting for scum to post", assuming that they think one of the inactive ones is scum. Given our current pool, I'm inclined to agree.

As for your vote I've considered voting Toto as well, though you haven't convinced me, as there's no Vig in this setup as Hawk proposed. It's 3 Goons, 9 Townies, a doc and a jailkeep. It's like, 8 votes to lynch so I don't feel like I have any reason not to vote this man for fear of quicklynch (as I'm not 100% sure).

VOTE: Toto

Toto - Same with these two. I really just don't know.

(This is a null read)

Proceeding this is the opportunistic vote but I've now decided that I'm going all out here.

Good point here, actually. Wasn't sure you had it in ya.

In reference to Toto's softclaim stuff.

Toto - Null-town. Interactions feel weird, but authentic. Cares too much about neb's supposed soft-claim, but whatever.

This is for the future. I am

damn

sure that a Sesq scumflip means that Toto is scum with him based off of these interactions which start in distancing (which is why everyone has looked at that opportunistic vote like it's weird) and end in agreement but not full agreement of TR. If he's not scum, I've written a little bit more than I needed to.

[Hiraki]

I will address Sesq's refutation in the morning.

Why do you want to associate me so badly to your scumreads?

Where did I SR Hawk? Making associations is a very common part of the game.

And your read of Sesq+Toto is purely based on what Sesq have said about me. If he is scum looking to associate himself with me why would you trust that?

Not as much as what he has done as much as what you've done in relation to him. Very push and pull motion.

[Hiraki]

Ok, Hikari. We lynch Sesq today. If he flips red you lynch me tomorrow. If I flip green we lynch you. Deal?

You're obsessed with me saying yes so you can then pin me on setting up lynches so let me give you your little bonus prize - sure.

[Hiraki]

Toto doesn't make the rules here tbh

[Hiraki]

I never intended to; sorry you can't read sarcasm when it's put right in front of you

[Hiraki]

Unlike you, I'm still pretty sane about this game.

[Hiraki]

He's so distraught that I would ever give up on his precious little deal!

[Hiraki]

You're such a master mafia hunter. I am just stunned at how caught I am - for not taking your dumb deal.

[Hiraki]

Yes - I took the deal! Especially when I said sure! I was always going to commit to a deal that I stated was flawed in the same post! Yes! How caught am I?!?!?

[Hiraki]

You're such a master mafia hunter.

You were scum reading me. What changed?

33 posts were added to the game thread. No reads changed though.

[Hiraki]

I haven't ignored you - you just haven't done anything.

[Hiraki]

(sarcasm translated to 'you suck as town')

Please get a new translator.

[Hiraki]

i am a STRONG CONTRIBUTOR TO TOWN

List of things you've actually done today:

1) 2 Filler Posts (They're both filler and help with figuring out what post I'm talking about - thanks!)
2) RVS Vote
3) Asked someone not to use naughty language
4) Posed a question about something that was done in jest / reactionary
5) Voted on that query
6) Filler
7) Filler
8) Filler
9) Filler
10) Voted yourself (Filler)
11) Repeated a vote on Nebula
12) Response to Toto
13) Vote for Nebula (again)

And then we're at the part where I question how much you've done. Feel free to question anything that's wrong here but that's half of your posts being pretty filler.

Sure. Take your time. Creativity can not be summoned at will.

I don't have any steam in the engine left for this at such a late hour. Stop putting words in my mouth. My reads are the same but I'm not going to commit to a plan of that nature and anyone - regardless of alignment - who would is a fool. Good night.

[Hiraki]

Pwetend I'm a dumb bimbo, okway? An' tell me what's wrong with Toto's dealio!

The fact that no one knows what Sesq will actually flip (well except for scum). The fact that it's lining up lynches when that is a sure-fire way to make the game stop working. The fact that things change.

Being hidden specifically does that. No need to lie about it one iota.

Right - there is no need to lie about it. We agree with this. We disagree in the fact where I do not necessarily think it is scummy to lie about it and you believe that lying about it is scummy.

[Hiraki]

Because he's been posting good and I haven't seen any major faults with his play.

What do you want me to say?

[Hiraki]

The color. Jesus Toto.

[Hiraki]

I know you're not trolling and that is the absolute most troubling part.

Also, where has toto been lining up lynches as you described?

The /entire/ deal is about lining up lynches.

[Hiraki]

Ok, so that's your entire case, where's the case evidence?

What? It's a the deal that me and Toto have been discussing for 3 pages. Fuck off, read it yourself, and feel free to ask questions.

[Hiraki]

(which it isn't inherently .. it is NAI)

This phrasing is why I definitely can't pin you as a TR.

I'm getting lazy with quoting - I don't need, nor want, to overdefend Nebula. I TR him just as much as I TR NYD.

[Hiraki]

Are you talking to me?

[Hiraki]

Can't spoonfeed children anymore. Don't have the time, patience, or want. Won't be playing with either of you in the future if this is how the game will continue.

[Hiraki]

Yeah, just like I've never TR'd NYD.

[Hiraki]

Kain - I've gone over this. I'm not going to repeat myself anymore. I am getting much closer with being OK with a lynch on you if this is your play from hereon out. You were much better in that other game we played together.

[Hiraki]

2) Where did I not respond

Your last post to me literally talks about 1 / 4 of the people that are on your side believing you about this slip thing.

You ignored the other 3. Does that mean you concede that your argument, while may have some very far off basis, is not appealing to many people?

Well, you kind of need arguments to refute...

OK Mister baby. Here's the spoon feed right into your mouth this

one

time.

Here is a concentrated list of why I am scumreading you so you don't have to read in a game about reading, creating arguments, and refuting them.

1) Responding to something that garners no attention:

Correct - I did. Your response to nothing was something - that's a big scumread of mine and considering that my read didn't change, it's proven to be correct.

I'm quoting just so you know that the information has always been there.

2) Continuation of 1 where he takes an accusation seriously (there's NO implication that this could even possibly be a joke this time) that is hypocritical in nature:

Where am I coasting along, and couldn't the same argument be made for LUV?

You've already stated that Lowell's posting is not very detailed. Lowell has not made any big splashes between these two posts. However, now you are taking him seriously because...?

Additionally, while you do ask for sources, you then shift the blame onto another player as if Lowell should just scumread both of you. Again, here are the quotes for the baby:

It's almost like...he's scumreading BOTH of you!

Toto and Riley town.

Lil and sesq scum.

unvote

VOTE: Lil

3) Opportunistic

I will admit this was not expressly in my former post due to editing but I had more than enough to warrant a vote without this content.

See neb? This is what opportunistic looks like.

Actually, I don't like this post at all. You push Nebula then people who jump on the wagon are opportunistic scum?
VOTE: sesq

As I stated, this was a good post by Toto. In current review, this will bring up more inquiries for Toto.

See neb? This is what opportunistic looks like.

Getting some bad vibes with these two.

This is a bad post - why on earth would you just flatout call two people that agree with you opportunistic? In review, these two people are:

A) Toto (

again, I will revisit this in a futurepost

)

B) Kain_Tepes

If you want to be fair, I can agree with B to an extent. But A? Here's what you've said about Toto in the past.

Toto - RVS vote, then "I'm waiting for scum to post", assuming that they think one of the inactive ones is scum. Given our current pool, I'm inclined to agree.

As for your vote I've considered voting Toto as well, though you haven't convinced me, as there's no Vig in this setup as Hawk proposed. It's 3 Goons, 9 Townies, a doc and a jailkeep. It's like, 8 votes to lynch so I don't feel like I have any reason not to vote this man for fear of quicklynch (as I'm not 100% sure).

VOTE: Toto

Toto - Same with these two. I really just don't know.

(This is a null read)

Proceeding this is the opportunistic vote but I've now decided that I'm going all out here.

Good point here, actually. Wasn't sure you had it in ya.

In reference to Toto's softclaim stuff.

Toto - Null-town. Interactions feel weird, but authentic. Cares too much about neb's supposed soft-claim, but whatever.

This is for the future. I am

damn

sure that a Sesq scumflip means that Toto is scum with him based off of these interactions which start in distancing (which is why everyone has looked at that opportunistic vote like it's weird) and end in agreement but not full agreement of TR. If he's not scum, I've written a little bit more than I needed to.

[Hiraki]

Nope.

[Hiraki]

You guys are just mafia geniuses. How the

fuck

am I going to get out of this one.

[Hiraki]

It's almost like...I wasn't talking to you.

[Hiraki]

hikari is actually acting the same way as in the other game he was scum

We've played one game together where I was scum. I don't think meta is a useful tool, especially with no other games to counter the one viewpoint from, but to each their own.

[Hiraki]

Whatever you say, Kain.

[Hiraki]

but he's lining up a lynch on himself!!!!

OK? It's about 4 people in this game. Don't you think there's something wrong about a plan that focuses on 4/13 people in this game?

IT'S RUDE TO SWEAR!!!!

It's rude not to listen the first time, as well, no?

[Hiraki]

He also doesn't link it.

Baby confirmed - no matter what.

Oh no

- I did not post a wall onto my wall. I am clearly not referring to a post when I put the number of the post in my own post.

mainly Hiraki's lack of explaining for his strong townread

Remember when you asked the game if anyone needed clarification on my reads and no one responded?

[Hiraki]

I've played 3 games and I can judge other people as a mafia master!!!!!!

@Riley: for u, i will clarify - anything specific you want fam?

[Hiraki]

Elena has just realized why I don't interact with Sesq or Toto tbh

[Hiraki]

Yeah i dunno how I could have the audacity to not talk to someone who just calls me wront all of the time like wtf me

[Hiraki]

Jesus christ

[Hiraki]

Actually, you should be interacting with people who call you wrong THE MOST, so you can debunk their claims... if you actually have evidence to do that.

Yeah i dunno how I could have the audacity to not talk to someone who just calls me wront all of the time like wtf me

@Riley - I've actually tried to articulate my TRs but I get very basic and almost sound childish so I need that part on how much you want me to explain. NYD and I have the same thinking which leads to the TR. Nebula has town attitudes toward incredibly false claims.

[Hiraki]

Oh!!! You already did Thanks Hiraki!!!! *hugs*

Glad to help - mind giving a reads-list?

[Hiraki]

kaintepes is SCUM!!!!! they are intentionally not posting a lot!!! to cover up the fact that they are scum!!!!

I agree with this. I want more pressure on this slot.

hiraki(that's you!!! say cheese!)

Cheese!

pep hasn't posted anything!!!! hopefully they are as good as PEPSI!!!! it's my favorite drink

Pep was replaced by NYD. Any thoughts on him?

One more favor since we disagree on MoI - can you read my comments on his postings and give your opinion on them?

[Hiraki]

Hiraki I understand it can be a bit...difficult too talk to some people so talk to me why do you townread the people you do

As stated prior, I need more specific questions. The posts that I linked, upon my re-reading this evening, demonstrate town nature rather than scum nature.

For example, the one with NYD is how I felt about the game at that point without reading his post. The ones about Nebula demonstrate the TvS argument that Toto developed. N.B. that even though I think MoI is scummy, I don't think the argument he created to push the wagon (i.e. you shouldn't lie about who you are) is objectively scummy. I think it's scummy in the scope of experience and an impracticality of not addressing all viewpoints. I also think the townbloc thing is, again, objectively scummy but not actually scummy in the long-run.

[Hiraki]

No - that was a bit of a deviation into my MoI scumread. Again - you're going to have to ask specific questions about those townreads because I don't know how I can explain it past "this is townie" without you fundamentally asking what is townie about it.

And once you do that, I think the question should be solved but if not, feel free to ask.

[Hiraki]

248 is GREAT. NYD is a pure TR.

I don't understand why this needs explanation.

[Hiraki]

I understand just saying you find a post good and wanting to leave it at that but this is how I see it at least

OK - let's flip this for a second. Who do you TR and why? Just need one person.

[Hiraki]

Ironic then that you haven’t done anything to actually pressure Kain.

It's very hard to pressure someone that doesn't show up though - no?

Yeah, probably scum … empty generalities and lack of anything that looks like trying to solve the game by finding scum.

She's the replacement for Frederick. Does that strengthen or weaken your SR on Nebula or the relation between the two?

[Hiraki]

The fact that you give lip-service to pressuring Kain but don't actually want to focus your attention there is suspect.

I can explain; I don't think votes will be of much help.

Considering Kain's current content and meta, I believe that pressure by votes will always create bad reactions. It won't get him motivated into the game and it won't help anyone except the alignment that he's not part of.

Stating it is a more effective method but I can understand why you would think differently. I would do a quick read on Kain's meta if you aren't familiar with it already.

What does her being a replacement have anything to do with anything Hiraki?

Elena replaced Frederick who Nebula put in the townbloc, as I stated earlier.

I am asking you to consider if Nebula was being a cheeky scum in 179 because I understand your argument and I don't think you think Nebula is being cheeky anywhere in the first 10 pages of this game.

I think he believe's he's right it comes across super genuine I never see myself ever lynching him

Do you now understand why everytime I'm asked to answer this stupid TR question that I can't give more than an answer that I've already given?

[Hiraki]

So your stance is that Kain Tepes is scum but you don’t want to vote him because that will not help anyone but the alignment he is not a part of. Aka Town ....

OK so let's get this straight:

1) You want me to vote someone other than my top SR at the moment.
2) You want me to vote Kain for pressure purposes.
3) You're SRing for me not pushing on one of your own SRs.

It didn’t but what I did notice is that Town Kain tends to be more OMGUSy and self-aware than scum Kain. The fact that he didn’t make any comment at all about my threat to potentially push through a lynch on him (even to say “You will not find anything”) has me leaning scum.

Are we partners now too? For the fact that I haven't voted Kain but have expressed a SR?

Am I scum for not voting Toto?

This is very inconsistent. If this was multi-vote, I'd agree. It's not like I'm ignoring Kain - I'm just not voting. I'm doing pressure my own way. Your scumread essentially is based off of the fact that I am not doing pressure your way and that your way is the only way. I think we can both agree that's a little absurd, no?

Nope. All I'm asking is if there is no more to your town read than what you already said, and if there is please explain?

Nope - don't change your words now buddy. You and Sesq are both on the record for saying the following that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that I'm withholding information or that there's more information than I've given. I've clearly said to look back at my posts and that those are sufficient unless you have further questions about the content in those posts.

Here are some examples:

Hiraki, why is Neb town?

What did you like about his posts?

I'm not trolling you. I honestly want to know what made you believe he is town from his posting. Quote examples please.

Why are you town reading both Nebula and Nydu?

You then DISAGREE with the notion that I had in Post 398 about my townreads:

This is actually a really bad reason to TR people.

So please do not act like I haven't been upfront with your questions. I am ignoring both of you because you ask the same question over and over and over and over and over and over and pretend that I'm going to give a different answer. Now that you're asking a different question and making a different statement, I am obliged to reply due to the change in circumstance. I don't care if you're not satisfied with the reasoning on my townread.

[Hiraki]

You are asking me to clarify something that I have no reason and no ability to clarify, as I have stated earlier. Back to the game now boys. If Toto can't figure out if he wants to vote me--oh wait, he's already doing that. There's no reason to continue this.

[Hiraki]

I agree with Sesq on MoI

[Hiraki]

Too many inactive players this game.

There's only one person being prodded.

[Hiraki]

BBT and Lowell play this way. You won't get more from them.

[Hiraki]

Please demonstrate how you are doing ANYTHING to pressure him. It should be trivially easy. But looking at your ISO I don’t see it.

You don't see how I've called out on Kain on everything that he hasn't done and how useless he's been this game?

I’m pointing out that your stance looks very much like what I expect from experienced scum who knows Kain’s reputation as lynch-bait.

Wow what a counterable and concrete argument - if anyone is swayed by this, please say something (Toto & Sesq not invited)

[Hiraki]

sorry hiraki, i know ya asked me a question. which comments were ya talking about?

1) Anything about NYD - your reads-list included pep but he was replaced by NYD awhile ago.

2) General comments in the conversation in:

395, 519, 538, and 573

Additionally:

798, 831, 832, 841, 843, 844, 898, and 900

grrrr!!! I am kind of weirded out that everyone is voting sesq but NO ONE is pushing her!!!! shouldn't ya be pushing the people you are voting??

We've had almost 40 pages of discussion. How much more could anyone actually want?

[Hiraki]

I'm fairly sure you bolded your signature sometime after I called you out for not seeing the obvious "she".

No, I didn't and this is a mean accusation that has nothing to do with this game. I just have to remind you that this is a game at the end of the day and that I would treat you as a person outside of the game and this statement reflects that you think of me as some sort of monster who just tries to fuck with people. It's very concerning.

[Hiraki]

So you decided to vote...without catching up?

[Hiraki]

Hikari seems a bit short with his words but I don't disagree with how he's approaching the game even if I don't buy his defense of Nebula.

I don't really like a Hiraki wagon I do feel like nebula is scum Sesq seems to just feel like clueless town to me with the early claim and the way he's defending himself

I'm leaning more this way as well. Also not to defend his early claim per say buy Riley did drop intent to hammer if he does reach l-1

So again - let me get this straight. Your catch-up pushed that not only should you abandon your own logic but that you should go

against

your own previous thoughts and vote based on someone's claims (most of which were posted WAY before Post 676) because another wagon was forming and yours was falling apart? Please let me know if any of that is incorrect.

[Hiraki]

What would you I do elsewise? You're trying to make it sound like I'm stuck hammering/lynching you.

Quite the contrary. From the evidence I have provided and the refutations you've created, your vote on me feels very forced. I am trying to decipher whether that is someone who is losing/hasn't had time to catch up/etc. (i.e. non-alignment related but bad play on either alignment) or if it is scumplay.

Im just following my previous train of thought and catching up on what I've missed. You even quote where I don't exactly town or scum read you and I don't like your defense of Nebula.

And this is where I start to lean toward the you haven't actually caught up yet rather than scumplay but some of this is flatout weird and wrong.

Your previous train of thought has me as a townread in 651 and 677. I don't even know how you can twist that into a null read. You literally said the words "I don't really like a Hiraki wagon" and then the next time you post, you vote me. That's not very cohesive logic and if there is something that is changing your opinion of me, I'd like to see it and it better be between 677 and 900ish (wherever your vote on me was).

If people aren't willing to lynch Nebula why should I just sit with my vote on him?

I don't disagree with this point - I disagree with the fact that you put your vote on me when you clearly haven't been scumreading or even leaning a SR on me.

You're not my optimal lynch today

There are 5 days left for this day.

I'll finish catching up today with a full reread of the thread and get back here. Maybe I'm wrong and switch back to Nebbie for now my vote can sit here.

And this is my problem - this may just be a critique in all of your play, especially because I don't think you're scum, but the fact that you've been following Toto most of the game and now this catch-up thing is going on where you're putting down a vote without being fully updated with the details of the game is distressing on the point of view that there's going to be a case on you in a few game days about just this, regardless of whether I'm here or not, and I think it'll be a town flip.

I see it from a lot of people and yet...no wagon why is that

I would rather not break down an L-2 wagon that I've been pretty deadset on.

Are Sesq and Kain scum together?

From a quick glance, I can't say there are definitive associative tells. I try not to focus on these things though.

Again this is hardly an indication that you are anything but annoyed with Kain.

Correct - which is what I was talking about before with pressuring Kain. Do you know what Kain's next posts were?

I DONT NEED to post tO BE HELPFUL TO TOWN..............!!!

(there is a post in between of banter between Toto that doesn't really contribute either)

i am just a POWERFUL PLAYER,, very aggresive

After just calling out Kain on being useless, he starts to OMGUS

that

quickly. There's no vote, not yet.

So is this saying he’s scummy for playing as he is?

Are you trying to imply that Kain is towntelling anywhere? You're acting like I'm fabricating a case on Kain. And again - with the threat of lynching (something that I can't do alone) what is Kain's response?

hikari and BBT both scum!!!!!!!!! hikari is actually acting the same way as in the other game he was scum

VOTE: HIKARI

So here's where this bubbles down to:

1) I tell Kain to start playing better and he decides to go on an off-topic rant and then vote someone for RVS reasons on page 20.
2) I threaten Kain with a lynch that I can't do alone and he votes me.

Please MoI - tell me how smart it would be for the town if these are the reactions that I get from a Kain on a level where more people are involved. Especially the type of people in this game that take everything literally.

[Hiraki]

Not prodded but I've been inactive and I will read and comment within the next few hours.

[Hiraki]

CAN WE JUST LYNCH SOMEONE THIS GAME IS BORING.................

Please replace out Kain. You're not doing anything this game and frankly, it's annoying.

999 and 1002 confirms my Riley TR.

It's been so long, I forget. Let me ISO myself real quick.

"Quick let me check what fake reads I've been presenting ..."

Scum.

I agree with this considering that I know Lowell has been more active in the last 5 pages than he has been in regards to the rest of the game.

It's been so long, I forget. Let me ISO myself real quick.

"Quick let me check what fake reads I've been presenting ..."

Scum.

Wow - twice in a row.

However, he doesn't do this. Instead, he questions

both

people who just jumped on the Nebula wagon with him - it's a town paranoia of 'Woah, why did they both just join so quickly'. Scum don't pick up on things like that, unless Sesq/Nebula are both scum - and I'm like 95% sure they're not.

I disagree with this but this is a manner of opinion.

VOTE: Sesq

This concerns me the most (and the fact that highlighting and quoting does not specify what lines actually get quoted - just me?) - why the change so quickly? Wagon based?

I also agree with 1067. If Sesq isn't happening,

Vote: Lowell

[Hiraki]

I have never seen such safe opinions in my entire life.

[Hiraki]

VOTE: Magna
The fact people have said they'd lynch this but haven't voted here is just outright strange so let's see if people put their money where there mouth is

YEAH BUT THERE'S A WAGON OVER HERE

[Hiraki]

I haven't really read (mostly skimmed) but let's try this for size:

Vote: Hawk

[Hiraki]

Unvote, Vote: Sesq

Last vote was an incorrect vote.

[Hiraki]

It was on Hawk.

[Hiraki]

Hiraki derailed that wagon with his stance against Toto that drug votes off of Nebula.

Hold up, hold up - I did what?

[Hiraki]

Love an explanation about what drove this “incorrect vote” and why you supposedly changed your mind.

I voted the wrong person.

I am a little intrigued with BBT's work. I don't think 743 is a full-on dodge but I'll agree about everything else. I'm still not sure if that leads to a scum conclusion though.

[Hiraki]

Also Hiraki, 743 is a post from Sesq.

Did you mean 744?

Yeah - wasn't really checking.

The other conclusion is that after reading arguments between literally anyone and Sesq, she just tried to dodge off from that torture.

[Hiraki]

Pretty slimy way of dodging though, no?

You don't think Sesq had valid points?

I agree with you there.

[Hiraki]

If so, I'm not sure how you can see Elena's dodging as anything other than being scum motivated.

Not to so much that Sesq had valid points as Elena was fatigued. She's denying which perturbs me more. I'm a little distracted at the moment but I am definitely considering support more than I would've thought previously based on the subsequent replies that she's giving now.

[Hiraki]

Please stop being obnoxious. You and Sesq's attitudes toward playing this game are annoying and draining. It's not fun when you decide to act like teenagers for anyone.

[Hiraki]

You have an answer for everything don't you.

Hmmmm!!! This post looks TOWNIE !!!! Elena looks like FRUSTRATED AND SUSPICIOUS TOWN !!!!!

No, this looks like a really scummy response to me, trying to dismiss arguments made against them when they are defeated.

nu uh! scum doesn't really want to do so obviously!!!! scum are super vain and wanna make sure they look pretty and good all the time!!! they wouldn't say something like this!!!! at least that's what I think

You could make the reverse argument pretty easily.

[Hiraki]

(BTW he’s trying his absolute hardest to distance himself from any responsibility for his vote to mislynch Lowell which is scummy)

I agree with this. I don't like it either.

Well I want to believe Elena, I find it odd the BBT and Hapu both come into d2 and point towards Elena but didn't say anything d1 about it.

Happu only came in at the end of D1. BBT is fair game although I would rather not criticize him on his increased activity.

BBT instructed/requested a hammer on Lowell

This phrasing irks me. Can you explain what you mean by instructed/requested? It almost sounds like you're saying he didn't have a solid case. Which I would be OK with if you didn't vote for Lowell but you did.

Like I don't mind that Lowell got lynched. I followed that logic because it seemed sound enough and his play besides that pinged me as coasting scum but like everything is lining up weirdly...

This self-justification is also just weird.

Hey Music Box – who is scum? You seem to be doing a lot of nitpicky pointless debating with Sesq and defending of Nebula without committing to pretty much anyone else as a suspect. Why is that Town behavior?

I agree with this too. I see Music Box far too often popping in just on Sesq in recent memory.

I'm still preferring Nebula to Sesq as scum.

Sesq and Nebula can be TvT for now I'd rather sit here.

That's a pretty big change after two days.

I know what I said yesterday but:

Unvote, Vote: Hawk

[Hiraki]

I don't agree with the associative tells (528 actually makes more sense with 402 rather than the opposite which Music Box implies) but I agree with the end-game. D1 reeked of scum v/s town.

Vote: Sesq

My alternative is Hawk - no chance you'll get my vote on Riley.

[Hiraki]

MY GOD PLEASE PUT POST TAGS AROUND YOUR NUMBERS

No.

Also, what end-game do you agree with?

That he is scum.

Also, you can't just say something "reeks" of x (in this case, scum vs town) without evidence. Well, you can, but it's stupid.

I'm done with your holier than thou complex this game and forever frankly.

What's your case on Hawk?

Read.

[Hiraki]

If I post anything it will just be quotes of things I've already said.

[Hiraki]

ISO 63, 64, 72, 79

Doesn't help when you have these as well from MoI ISO: 7, 8, 28, 45, 52, 54 - gonna quote this just to push this a little harder:

This is one of the first empty MoI is scum drops that I want to see more about …

Why is it “reasonable” for there to be one scum in two players? I’d like to see your line of thought for this.

[Hiraki]

If I post anything it will just be quotes of things I've already said.

Hiraki spoonfeeds for the one and only time in D4.

[Hiraki]

I can follow this.

Unvote, Vote: Hawk

Nebula's flip incriminates Hawk just as much as it does to MoI.

[Hiraki]

Hapahauli - mostly in the moment reads. Especially considering that Riley could've gone with the flow but decided to go against it. Read her posts at face value - they're hard to read but the substance underneath is very good.

Based on MoI associations, where do you think Sesq lies?

[Hiraki]

I'm glad we're agreeing very well.

[Hiraki]

Hikari you have been pushing Sesq all game why change now?

Because a Sesq lynch isn't happening today but a Hawk one will.

[Hiraki]

@ Hiraki: I'm trying to work out why you switched to scumreading Hawk, from your links in 1558, and as far as I can make out it was because of his switch to calling to calling Nebula town in 1334. Is that right?

Correct - also note that ISO 63 is Hawk flipflopping for strange reasons onto the Nebulla wagon during D1. With the Nebula flip, it doesn't look pretty.

@Toto - Hap already wants Hawk to flip before Sesq. I am very sure that both are scum - if it makes you more comfortable to lynch one more than the other than this is something we should collectively discuss.

[Hiraki]

@ Hiraki: I'm trying to work out why you switched to scumreading Hawk, from your links in 1558, and as far as I can make out it was because of his switch to calling to calling Nebula town in 1334. Is that right?

Correct - also note that ISO 63 is Hawk flipflopping for strange reasons onto the Nebulla wagon during D1. With the Nebula flip, it doesn't look pretty.

Where did Hawk flipflop on Neb Day 1? Your ISO 63 doesn't seem to relate to that. His read on Neb looked more like natural read progression to me. It was his jump on and off your wagon that bothered me more there.

That's what that post insinuates - admittedly, upon re-reading, it doesn't look that way unless you take it into contextual means in which case the quotes in the post were from the 600's while the post itself was part of inquiry about that switch (which he does a couple of posts back from ISO 63)

As much as me and Toto disagree on Riley's alignment, I would like more opinions from that slot to affirm my own and to deconfirm everyone else's suspicions.

[Hiraki]

I would like to wait for Riley before switching back over.

[Hiraki]

Riley as scum has no reason to call Sesq town atm with that response. I don't think anyone would blame Riley for dropping a vote here and saying everything she just said.

[Hiraki]

Riley's post on TRing Sesq isn't scum aligned.

[Hiraki]

Why did you keep flipping between Riley is partnered with Sesq and not. Particularly considering this back and forth back and forth in a 17 post timeframe..

Who makes more sense to be disorganized with their thought process, scum or town?

[Hiraki]

I didn't ask you, thanks.

[Hiraki]

Riley's post on TRing Sesq isn't scum aligned.

Is this regardless of Sesq alignment?

Yes. Can't really tell the other way around.

Doesn't matter. The more opinions and perspectives the better

If I wanted your perspective, I'd ask for it.

Instead, I asked for Hawk's perspective. Now I don't know Hawk's actual answer because he might just take yours. So again, thank you!!!!!

[Hiraki]

Hiraki, do you have other scum reads other than Sesq&Hawk? what's your read on MB?

MB is null tbh. Pretty confident that one of Sesq and Hawk is scum, if not both. If it's not there, I'd be looking into Elena/MB.

[Hiraki]

Hapa, it's time to vote. I'm not voting Riley.

[Hiraki]

And after a week, what's happened?

[Hiraki]

@Hikari follow up question if we're not voting Riley and you think Sesq is scum, excluding me since I am town who is Sesq's partner from the remaining. (eg. if me and Riley are green who's red with sesq)

This question is worthless.

@Hikari are you town reading Riley? can you give me reasons as to why?

As stated many times in this game, I will not build a town case. There is nothing bad about Riley's play if you take the time to read it. Not the most active player but not a bad one.

Here's a better question - since you wanted to be honest:

Hikari if it helps I would have 100% said town with or without Sesq's input I feel like rereading or upon evaluation it's easier for me as town to get disorganized and actually post things like that. As Scum I would be a bit more meticulous so it's less likely my reads should be disorganized as such.

If this is your answer and Riley has called out Sesq-scum for the entire game and then is now calling Sesq town based off of a gut read, can you give me any reasonably good scum rationale for pulling off such a move?

[Hiraki]

Well, for one, Hawk has posted a lot more now. How does that new content impact your read on him?

Doesn't change.

Also, why are you excluding Riley?

More worthless.

[Hiraki]

I'm saying that mafia is a little bit more articulate than to start changing reads like they're nothing on Day 4.

[Hiraki]

so the case on riley is that she knows Sesq is town and therefore changed her read on D2 in order to combat this very argument on D4?

You got my initial confusion of the case out of the way but it really doesn't change much.

[Hiraki]

No, I said that in relation to something that I thought Hawk said. Here's what I said on the matter concerning townreads.

As stated many times in this game, I will not build a town case. There is nothing bad about Riley's play if you take the time to read it. Not the most active player but not a bad one.

[Hiraki]

(sorry)

[Hiraki]

I was joking with the mod

[Hiraki]

your initial avoidance i also find really suspicious

Yes yes we know you want to lynch me, you can call me town but no one is fooled that you want me out of the game

Okay Hikari if you won't Lynch Riley will you lynch Sesq still?

Yes

[Hiraki]

I'd rather lynch =/= I want to lynch

Also coaching us on "not learning to do that" on something that was a hardpush on Lowell by MoI is

great

.

[Hiraki]

Unvote, Vote: Sesq

This is L-1

[Hiraki]

Are you really saying I haven't explained myself?

[Hiraki]

Here's the biggest post that I'm right about Toto and Sesq both needing me to repeat myself over and over and over.

Hiraki, do you have other scum reads other than Sesq&Hawk? what's your read on MB?

MB is null tbh. Pretty confident that one of Sesq and Hawk is scum, if not both. If it's not there, I'd be looking into Elena/MB.

And here's what he /just/ asked:

So, Hapa and Hiraki, you both moved your votes from Hawk to Sesq. Has your read on Hawk changed at all, if so can you point out why?

no

Not enough to put someone into L FUCKING ONE

lol

[Hiraki]

Lynch me regardless!!!!! I'm sure this is all about Toto's reads rather than his wants!

[Hiraki]

No.

It's a pretty bold claim to throw out that my reads have never changed and then just leave it there, with no proof or anything.

(Maybe it's because the facts don't align with the narrative)

[Hiraki]

It would be pretty weird if I TR'd Hawk in D1...oh! I did! (930) MoI's reaction in 1238ish (I quote it around ISO 67 - phone posting for twilight) soldifies that SR so thanks for letting me look back.

Never voted MoI because none of you suspected MoI. Started to distrust myself. If you're going to imply that not voting confirmed scum on the lynch that took less than 24 hours was scum intentioned, then I have nothing more to say.

Your description of the Lowell wagon is a crude mischaracterization of the facts. With a 40+ D1 and a stalemate between Sesq and Nebula, did you expect me to just throw my hands up and vote Sesq? Because that's dumb - vote MoI who multiple people had town reads on and definitely couldn't get a wagon on? Nope,that's pretty dumb too. How about lynch for the sake of getting reads? That's pretty normal - optimal would be this lynch on D1 but that's OK. What's not OK is the implication that it was somewhere that was perfect for my vote.

I SR you for a lot of D1 but you've been pretty consistent in that VI read. I'm glad you are definitely doing your due diligence (by reading) and definitely being objective in your reads! It's truly showing!

[Hiraki]

I'm very glad we're having this discussion in Twilight though! Good to know that the person who wanted to talk the most starts pretty big discussion about my play after the hammer!

[Hiraki]

No, I still don't want you to talk. I'm just telling you how absolutely absurd your arguments are.

[Hiraki]

Because you've never said something that looked convincing that was also just as absurd. I'm glad you've taken the time to refute my arguments, if they're wrong, and are not trying to attack me on

actually responding to you

[Hiraki]

Yes. They are not thought through and they are not accurate. That is

literally

the point of the post you just quoted.

[Hiraki]

What part of 2 days left and neither Nebula or Sesq were going to be lynched doesn't make sense to you?

You're acting like I voted thinking that I was 100% happy and thought it was the BEST lynch of the day.

[Hiraki]

You've already stated that Lowell's posting is not very detailed. Lowell has not made any big splashes between these two posts. However, now you are taking him seriously because...?

Additionally, while you do ask for sources, you then shift the blame onto another player as if Lowell should just scumread both of you. Again, here are the quotes for the baby:

I also agree with 1067. If Sesq isn't happening,

How can you tell if I was happy with a lynch?

BY READING MY POSTS

And Sesq wagon was larger when you joined Lowell.

Yup! But I'm sure you knew that it was by one vote that wouldn't matter at this point right? Oh! And that Sesq and Nebula were between L-3 and L-1 for...

33 pages

[Hiraki]

I'm not arguing with you if you think that changing my L-4 or L-3 vote 2 days before the deadline is unreasonable.

I noted this in my ISO. It confirmed my suspicions and we had Nebula alive.

[Hiraki]

Nope, I've conceded. If you think that changing an L-3 vote 2 days before the deadline for an acceptable wagon is bad then there's our grievances. Glad to know that again, you started this conversation in Twilight and that it stemmed from me "never changing reads"

[Hiraki]

Unvote, Vote: Sesq

Last vote was an incorrect vote.

[Hiraki]

Toto: "Haha! I'm sure I've got him this time! This post incriminates him! I'm sure that I have finally made a suitable pos on my Lyncher Target Hiraki..."

[Hiraki]

*post

[Hiraki]

Yeah, I'm SURE I said nothing about Hawk in between.

[Hiraki]

In fact, I'm not feeding you anymore. I'm not going to check because I

know

that I have.

[Hiraki]

(BTW he’s trying his absolute hardest to distance himself from any responsibility for his vote to mislynch Lowell which is scummy)

I agree with this. I don't like it either.

Well I want to believe Elena, I find it odd the BBT and Hapu both come into d2 and point towards Elena but didn't say anything d1 about it.

Happu only came in at the end of D1. BBT is fair game although I would rather not criticize him on his increased activity.

BBT instructed/requested a hammer on Lowell

This phrasing irks me. Can you explain what you mean by instructed/requested? It almost sounds like you're saying he didn't have a solid case. Which I would be OK with if you didn't vote for Lowell but you did.

Like I don't mind that Lowell got lynched. I followed that logic because it seemed sound enough and his play besides that pinged me as coasting scum but like everything is lining up weirdly...

This self-justification is also just weird.

Hey Music Box – who is scum? You seem to be doing a lot of nitpicky pointless debating with Sesq and defending of Nebula without committing to pretty much anyone else as a suspect. Why is that Town behavior?

I agree with this too. I see Music Box far too often popping in just on Sesq in recent memory.

I'm still preferring Nebula to Sesq as scum.

Sesq and Nebula can be TvT for now I'd rather sit here.

That's a pretty big change after two days.

I know what I said yesterday but:

Unvote, Vote: Hawk

See everybody tomorrow.

[Hiraki]

hi

[Hiraki]

MB / Hawk for me atm

Pretty sure on my NYD and riley reads