Open 714: Tit for Tat [Game Over]

[mutantdevle]

He was there in the begging. When it all began. He watched me when I first entered and he watched as I grew. Now he is back. He has come to see who, or what, I have become - How have I progressed through this life?

I can feel his eyes. They linger on me and me alone. He is there. He'll always be there. Watching. Judging. Wanting to know what I have become

VOTE: Luca Blight

[mutantdevle]

VOTE: mutantdevle

For not proof checking his words and misspelling beginning.

[mutantdevle]

mutant plsss stop gambiting and get targeted reactions instead of "OMG HE SELF VOTED WHAT DO WE DO" reactions

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this statement but it sounds like you expected people to mention my self vote? I think most people see it as the RVS it was and nothing more.

UNVOTE:

[mutantdevle]

Did self-voting gambits become really cool in the past year or something? I've never seen them actually benefit in getting reads on people.

Anyway Gamma's town, jmo feels town, wagoning Creature is still a shit idea, I'm working on coming up with Jay's tells (you'd think after seeing him live 4 or 5 times I'd start to figure something out) but I still don't recommend D1 Jay lynch for ~~reasons~~.

@mutant: The point of RVS is to get the ball rolling and start getting reads out of people.
Caaaan I interest you in a NSG or Aneninen mini-wagon so your vote isn't doing nothing?

My self vote wasn't a gambit, just RVS. I didn't realise people took RVS so seriously and a method of actually reading people, it's always been a way of just saying "Hello, I'm here. This is my joke." to me.

And why NSG/Aneninen? I typically don't vote unless there is a strong or logical case on someone, I scum read them myself or I compromise due to time (though maybe that's not so true for my more recent games?). I guess I could do an Aneninen wagon simply because I have no idea who they are and I respect NSG's play based on my games with her.

Also, am I supposed to know your secret vig plan - or be able to help with it in any way? Like, why is it specifically me you want to talk to about it?

[mutantdevle]

townread such crappy behavior from him

You offend me good sir.

[mutantdevle]

Basically, the earlier I can sort NSG, the more comfortable I'll feel about the gamestate. Probably the greatest balance between "player I can respect" and "player I won't get paranoid of".

Ahh yes, I can see where you're coming from there. Pretty much the reason I respect NSG is that she seems like an ideal scum partner for me.

You like setup spec and probabilities and shit. I respect that. I don't expect you to know my secret vig plan because I just came up with it about an hour ago.

Okay yeah, I'm interested now. I'm now currently trying to think about what your vig plan could be in such a setup as this :3

As for my scum meta, I just finished a Jester-Nightless Micro here. I was feeling confident that game as scum until the jester self-hammered and correctly identified me and my scum buddy as such :/

[mutantdevle]

It is a fair assumption. I don't think i'd intentionally do things to make me look noobish to try and get town cred but I do intend on trying to play exactly as I do as town when I get a scum role. I never intended to make such mistakes though and I'd make them as either alignment because that'd just be me making mistakes.

[mutantdevle]

I was literally coughing with laughter over Jay's and Math's conversation about me. I don't think Jay faked it, they seemed so passionate about why I should be lynched that it definitely felt like they were genuinely confusing me for the worst. Not sure whether I'd town read them for it though. Had I actually been the worst instead of myself it would mean nothing to Jay's alignment. I could see scum Jay trying to get an easy lynch on the worst with the reasoning that them being lynch bait would be informative for those on the wagon.

I'm a little cautious over jmo defending me so heavily tbh. He pressured Jay a lot but never voted, it felt much more like he was defending me than pushing Jay. I can only assume I'm nothing more than a null read for everyone at the moment so the only reason I can see for him defending me is because he knows my alignment and looking for town cred if I flip.

I'm liking the discussion between Math and Luca, mainly because I see them both as strong players that I'd like to sort. I'm already leaning town on Mathdino so I'm hoping his interactions with Luca will help me sort him. From my game with Luca (the first game I ever played on this site) I remember distrusting him at the start but then town reading him as I agreed with more and more of what he was saying. I currently distrust him again so if he is also town this game then I expect to be agreeing with him by day 2, but if not, and my distrust remains, it will probably develop into a scum lean.

Btw, does anyone know if it's Anen's meta to lurk? Regardless, more content is needed from them than 1 post that is just a naked vote. So I'm going to take up Math's offer of mini-waggoning them so that they start posting.

VOTE: Aneninen

[mutantdevle]

Mutantdevle's 167: "Btw, does anyone know if it's Anen's meta to lurk?" Oh My Gods. A whole day or something like that without my posts. Terrible! But... "So I'm going to take up Math's offer of mini-waggoning them so that they start posting." At that time he wasn't voting for me! Are you afraid of launching a wagon on me without help?

This almost makes me not want to unvote. But I guess being cranky isn't a scum tell.
UNVOTE:

"So I'm going to take up Math's offer of mini-waggoning them so that they start posting."
Was clearly a reference to 26.
And claiming I was afraid of wagoning you without help is just a stupid comment since I never said I was scum reading you. My vote was clearly for lack of activity.


Also Jay tends to have a fair bit of fluff in their posts, my understanding is that it's not AI for them.

He has a scummy playstyle

I wouldn't say my playstyle is scummy, just that I don't conform to site (or mafia in general) meta. I usually look more and more townie the further into a game I live.

[mutantdevle]

I never said I was scum reading you. My vote was clearly for lack of activity.

Shouldn't you vote for a

scumread

then?

I don't conform to site (or mafia in general) meta.

I vote for who I want to vote for. A lot of the time, that's no one.

We're talking about mutantdevle. No one else comment on this convo, thanks.

why?

I assume that was mainly directed towards those of us who played Open 711. Jay was getting me confused with a different player. Math didn't want anyone to correct Jay until we had reactions out of them over it.

Math has NSG locked as town already based on hardly anything except meta.

NSG is aware of her meta and has even apparently been studying it. The meta essentially boils down to NSG being 'awkward' as scum - would it be so hard for her to produce a few decent looking posts and secure that easy townread from someone who has such low expectations of her scum game?

@Math can you answer this please? Or rather, could you answer this more to the point question: Why (specifically) do you town read NSG so heavily?

[mutantdevle]

and scumreading Mutant, mostly because of this:

I wouldn't say my playstyle is scummy, just that I don't conform to site (or mafia in general) meta. I usually look more and more townie the further into a game I live.

I remember reading this a couple of times before. From scum.

That post didn't ping me until Aneninen pointed it out. It seems a really awkward explanation of why we could scumread him.

I'm being criticised for wanting to be different to what's considered normal?

Story of my life.

[mutantdevle]

I'm not so sure Gamma is town tbh, but I'm not sure if it's just his posting style that's triggering me. But let's be honest, several consecutive posts consisting of a single sentence that contains little to no meaningful content is inherently scummy. It clutters the thread and makes people reluctant to re-read.

Also, @Gamma, can you not use the name abbreviation MD when myself and math are in a game together? kek.


I'm liking Golden's catchup though. I disagree that he is not readable and I presently think he is town.

[mutantdevle]

I would be calling this Creature's scum game if it wasn't for this:

Hopefully you don't think two busy days mean I'm scum.

Followed by a series of posts from him in his usual style.

Should we not be waiting a little while longer before voting up Creature if he's saying his activity is going to increase?

[mutantdevle]

Reads list here, if anyone wants me to explain any of them then feel free to ask:

Town

Mathdino

Town lean

JaydragonKing
Aneninen
TheGoldenParadox

Null

Almost50
Pinturicchio
jmo16mla

Scum lean

Luca Blight
northsidegal
Creature

Scum

Gamma Emerald


VOTE: Creature
I was going to vote Gamma here but then Math posted 397. Slightly cautious that Math is scum trying to guide us but I don't believe that based on my town read and I'm sure if those pings are true then there'd be something to it later in the game.

[mutantdevle]

Ask A50

[mutantdevle]

Specifically, you are my strongest scum read. However, based on what Math has said, I think we are more likely to find scum in Creature than in you.

[mutantdevle]

EBWOP: Based on what math has said, and you have reaffirmed.

[mutantdevle]

Ask A50

about what
also why do you trust me reaffirming it if I'm scum?

Ask A50 why I might not necessarily be voting my strongest scum read. Since he's trying to fly under the radar this game he'll probably take a while to answer. But, as he reminds me often, my reads are bad. I have a meta of awful reads in most games. So naturally, I don't expect myself to be correct.

Also, I don't necessarily trust you reaffirming it, but I trust the premise in general. If town math says it's true, you'd have no reason to contradict that as either alignment. You feeling the need to reaffirm it means nothing to the premise, it only tells us of your motivations. It means you are either town who genuinely thinks this could be Creature's scum game or you are scum trying to get us to mislynch. I obviously am under the impression of the latter and I guess that just adds a personally informative aspect to Creature's flip for me.

[mutantdevle]

Math, be a babe and look at your new mod PT to tell us who the scum are?

[mutantdevle]

Also, I'll probably move to NSG if I don't like her next few posts. I do agree that my vote on Creature is probably redundant at this point during the day.

[mutantdevle]

It means you are either town who genuinely thinks this could be Creature's scum game or you are scum trying to get us to mislynch.

Totally not fence-sitty.

Lol dude, you can't just pull this out of context to misrepresent my opinion.

I was pointing out those were the 2 possibilities and clearly stated afterwards that I believe the latter to be true.

[mutantdevle]

@RedFlavor:

Spoiler:

01000101 01000001 01000111 01001100 01000101 00100000 01010100 01001111 00100000 01001110 01000101 01010011 01010100 00111010 0001010 01001001 01010100 00100000 01001101 01010101 01010011 01010100 00100000 01001000 01000001 01010110 01000101 00100000 01000010 01000101 01000101 01001110 00100000 01001010 01001111 01001000 01001110 01001110 01011001 00100000 01000101 01001110 01000111 01001100 01001001 01010011 01001000 00101100 00100000 01010011 01001001 01010010 00101110

Spoiler:

01000100 01101001 01100100 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01101011 01101110 01101111 01110111 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100001 01110100 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 01110010 01100101 00100000 01101001 01110011 00100000 01100001 00100000 01110100 01101000 01101001 01110010 01100100 00100000 01001010 01101111 01101000 01101110 01101110 01111001 00100000 01000101 01101110 01100111 01101100 01101001 01110011 01101000 00100000 01100110 01101001 01101100 01101101 00100000 01110011 01100101 01110100 00100000 01110100 01101111 00100000 01100011 01101111 01101101 01100101 00100000 01101111 01110101 01110100 00100000 01101001 01101110 00100000 01010011 01100101 01110000 01110100 01100101 01101101 01100010 01100101 01110010 00100000 01110100 01101000 01101001 01110011 00100000 01111001 01100101 01100001 01110010 00111111

[mutantdevle]

I sorta grew used to MU and that might've affected my MS townplay.

Come back to EE forums and play a game there?

Onjit mainly hosts shit post games that he abandons and gives literally ALL of us vanilla townie role PMs.


I think a lot of us are just waiting for NSG to chip in tbh. I'm getting bored waiting and might just start pushing Gamma. But I'd rather do that later during day 1 and sort this consensus towards NSG/Creature out first.

I must admit that A50 acting differently is pinging me a little but I don't think it's AI since I've seen what I consider to be his normal as both town and scum.

[mutantdevle]

Are you getting paranoid that you're going to be vigged?

[mutantdevle]

Are you getting paranoid that you're going to be vigged?

There are plenty of players requesting a vig on me.

Better hope none of them are the vig then

Though my philosophy right now would be that you're not much of a loss if you do get vigged and you are town though. You have like 12 days or something to rectify that though.

[mutantdevle]

As in the stuff you've contributed thus far this game isn't that significant. Hence you don't hold much value to the town.

[mutantdevle]

UNVOTE:

[mutantdevle]

@mod; request prod on NSG

It's not been 48 hours for her yet.


She's currently at 4 votes and I think at least 2 of us have expressed interest in joining the wagon. So we have a potential L-1 here. I'm not entirely sure I'm too comfortable with that this early in day 1 but it's not going to stop me placing my vote if I don't like NSG's response.

[mutantdevle]

@12. mutantdevle: Stick around and you might find me even more amusing than you ever thought.

I'll try to be it's hardly my choice :3

[mutantdevle]

^^ but*

Light scumread on Mutant just because he seems to be blending in without being particularly proactive. I remember easily townreading him in the other game we played, but it hasn't been the case here.

I'm trying to be proactive but it's kinda hard when a lot of the players here are either strong proactive players themselves or are filling the thread with pure fluff.

[mutantdevle]

HOT TAKE: I'm 99% dying tonight.

What makes you so sure? I can't tell if you're joking but I feel like you are since I don't see any reason you'd think you'd be either scum's or the vig's target tonight - unless you genuinely believe A50 is the vig?

[mutantdevle]

First line I can agree with. Second not sure what informs it?

what? why do

you

agree with that? since when were you aware of my meta?

I was aware of it since Gest idea

@Gamma: You blatantly ignore NSG's second question here. You never justified WHY you agree with Math's notion that NSG was lock town at that point in time. Sure, you say you're familiar with her meta. But what specifically about it lead you to lock town NSG at the time? This is especially relevant since math has said this opinion was a gambit. So basically, you're agreeing with math over something he didn't genuinely believe.

[mutantdevle]

@Everyone voting me – please inform me of what your mathdino read is. Doesn't have to be detailed, you can condense it to a few words, even.

I was never voting for you, but I had stated intent to vote so I guess this question is directed towards me too. Math is my strongest town read - everything about his play screams town to me. I think the main point to suggest he is scum is the notion that his gambits aren't legit and just scum being flip-floppy with their reads. I've never seen scum Math, but his town play is incredibly strong IMO (even if a little arrogant) and he doesn't strike me as someone who'd make such stupid mistakes as scum. I don't believe he is backtracking or flailing on anything, they are genuine gambits.

[mutantdevle]

His "I don't conform to site meta. I usually look more an more townie" still seems scummy to me. I agree with Creature saying he seems fence sitting

My "I don't conform to site meta. I usually look more an more townie" IS my meta though.. would you like me to link you to games where I have said similar things or where others have noticed how I get townier as the day goes on? And I already pointed out that Creature's statement of 'He's fence-sitting' is a blatant misrep by removing 1 statement from its context. If you have other points of where I've seemingly been sitting on a fence then feel free to point them out but I get the feeling that you're just not reading everything in the thread (which I don't really blame you for tbh since there's been quite a bit of fluff from Gamma and pointless back and forth arguments).

[mutantdevle]

I'm not so sure Gamma is town tbh, but I'm not sure if it's just his posting style that's triggering me.

Right after Mathdino's surprise scumread on NSG?
Can we see a soft-chainsaw here?

I don't see what Math's read on NSG has to do with my read on Gamma and I have no idea what your second question is - possibly because I am unfamiliar with the term?

[mutantdevle]

Pintu and Paradox seem fine to me. I consider Luca to basically be a policyvig. If town agreed to it, I'd love a vig on Luca, but otherwise, probably a bad idea.

Wait-oh.

3. You are not allowed to scumread

mutantdevle

and GoldenParadox for standard scumtells. I've seen them both mislynched when they were towntelling left and fucking right. If anyone has any firsthand scum meta of them, go ahead and share.

Paradox and

Jay

are currently not readable. Stop trying. Jay dies before LyLo, and Paradox needs to provide more content or he goes straight into the scumpool.

Considering the underlined names I can't really follow your logic.

I don't follow your logic on why the latter 2 of math's posts would cause you not to follow the logic of his first?

[mutantdevle]

So I'm going to go ahead and

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Why? Well, first of all, he has the 2nd most posts in the game (by quite a long way) yet not a lot of substance. Most of his posts are a simple sentence or two, typically only 1 line of text, which gives me the impression he is trying to look busy without actually being so. If you were to ISO him you'd see that not a lot of his posts are meaningful. His posts are either mostly fluff or asking questions he rarely ever pursues the answers for. It's like he doesn't actually care for the answers (my accusation being that he knows their alignment anyway so doesn't actually need to sort people with his questions). Seriously though, check his ISO, he NEVER replies to any of the responses to his questions unless they ask a question back to their response. He really doesn't care about the answers. So that and the uselessness of a lot of what he posts makes me think he's just posting a lot of what he does to give the impression he is scum hunting without properly doing so.

Also, remember 260? - he says the reason he didn't vote Luca at the time of FoS-ing him was because he didn't know Luca's wagon status and was scared of accidentally hammering. I call BS on that. You think someone posting as often as Gamma is would really think that Luca could possibly be at L-1? Furthermore, why would he think Luca could potentially be at L-1 in the first place? The only way he'd get the impression is if he read the argument between math and Luca - it would be a reasonable assumption that perhaps either one of them could have been voted for over that. But his excuse for not knowing the wagon status of Luca was:

I skipped a few pages cos I was taking a break

I call BS. If he had done that then he wouldn't have known Luca could potentially have been voted for. Saying he didn't want to vote Luca because he wasn't aware of his wagon status is such BS. The town justification for why he didn't vote Luca with the FoS would simply be that he straight up didn't want to vote. You don't HAVE to vote your scummier reads, but scum Gamma would have felt pressured to. Additionally, if he truly did want to vote Luca, he would have checked to see if there was a wagon. But he didn't care for actually voting, he just felt pressured to.

In general, I think pretty much all of Gamma's votes have been bad:

Spoiler: Wall of vote analysis

VOTE: jmo16mla
Your username gives me bad memories

RVS - this is fine.

VOTE: Creature
Good vote, hasn't posted, is scum

If this is another RVS vote (which I assume it is) then this is also fine. However, if it isn't, then it is obviously quite a shit vote. My main issue with this vote though is that it doesn't change for the next 242 posts in the thread. He just completely vote parks creature. His next vote is this:

I'm concerned about accidentally hammering
but since you say it's fresh
VOTE: Luca Blight

Which, like I say, he was hesitant to actually do and only did out of pressure. So to me, this gives the impression that he had full intention to vote park Creature here.

He then makes this vote:

VOTE: Aneninen
I'm feeling this one

with no justification whatsoever.

His next vote is this:

{Jay, Anen, Pin}{math, Gamma, Creature}{mutant, NSG}{Luca, JMO, Almost}

Too many scum are gonna spoil the stew
Too many nullss are gonna spoil the stew

I CHANNEL THE POWER OF RANMARU AND CALL THIS A SCUM POST
VOTE: Creature

which he later justifies with:

In case you're wondering what's up with me voting Creature
It looks like he is attacking the idea of that many nulls and scumreads without actually engaging with the read list

Refering to this post:

{Jay, Anen, Pin}{math, Gamma, Creature}{mutant, NSG}{Luca, JMO, Almost}

Too many scum are gonna spoil the stew
Too many nullss are gonna spoil the stew

So... Creature is scum because of 1 single post? He has no other reason to vote Creature here and if this is the only one then this vote is bad. It feels like an under the radar attempt to get back on Creature.

And now his most recent vote is this:

...
Gamma continuing to vote Creature despite townreading him is probably a fluke.
...

!
Yeah I thought I was voting Aneninen
VOTE: Aneninen

Again, no justification on why he returns here. I don't think Gamma ever mentions why he scum reads Anen, just that he does. And I really don't think at this point that the continued vote on Creature was an accident.

So TLDR for that spoiler: Gamma's votes suck and have little justification and it doesn't feel like he truly believes in his votes at all.

[mutantdevle]

I don't follow your logic on why the latter 2 of math's posts would cause you not to follow the logic of his first?

From his point of view Jay or you would be a better Vig-target than Luca.

Maybe that's just your own opinion getting in the way?

I mean, I can see why you think he'd want Jay vigged but I don't see how his acknowledgement of my playstyle means he wants me vigged.

[mutantdevle]

I apologise for this wall. It seems that there was a lot more shit on Gamma's Anen read than I originally first saw.

loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool
I think you're scumreading me partially for playstyle (the one-liners are NAI and I can prove it). Besides that there's the "he doesn't care for answers" poke which I've been accused of in the past several times so what I'd like you to do is find the responses I haven't engaged with so I can look at them at a glance and see what I make/made of them. As for not voting Luca I've been kinda on edge wrt accidental hammers as of late. In a past game I was hammered because no one was keeping track of votes, and in the game Aneni referenced for my meta I was thinking I was hammered at one point and I was like "shit I didn't get to do anything to stop this". Also what's wrong with vote parking in the early game? Along with that, if I didn't have any other suspicions why should I be moving my vote? The Aneninen vote, I've explained it a couple time and I call bullshit on you not seeing it because you say you read my ISO. I'm not explaining it for you again btw, go find it yourself. As for the Creature vote I felt like that was enough along with his lack of activity so far. As for the issue with my vote sticking on Creature I was still scumreading that one post but his activity had improved so I felt it was 1) better to give him some time and 2) I felt comfortable giving up the point there. Also if I wanted to vote park Creature why not explain why it wasn't a fluke and keep voting? If you think that one post was enough why would something else change that?

Thanks for making this post with a clear structure so that is easy to respond to instead of just rambling on about the reasons I'm wrong in a giant paragraph <3

I'll reply to each of your points in separate posts since I've mostly moved on from walls from my early days.

First of all though, I'd like to address your points that you've explained your Aneninen vote. My short response would be: "not well enough". But I'm going to give a longer response anyway. Though I'd just like to say that your response of "I'm not explaining it again, go find it yourself" is inherently scummy. If I accuse you of not doing something, surely your response should be to show me examples of where you HAVE done it in order to prove me wrong? But alas, I suspect that you are unsure if you have explained your read on Anen and instead want me to really look for it and do the work for you. After all, if I don't find anything, you could always claim "your not looking (hard enough)" right?

I did read your ISO before making my case. Admittedly, it was a skim read aided by CTRL F, but I did familiarise myself with your opinions when pushing. But, just to appease you, I have gone through your ISO more thoroughly a second time to make sure I'm not missing anything.

A whopping total of 0 posts before your initial vote on Anen involved you actually accusing him of being scum. Though, it can be infered that you are not too happy with him based on these 2 posts:

I don't understand why Gamma brought that replacement up in 58, especially if he added two posts later:

"lolwut that was in the past dude"

How can I say, he was posting without producing real content.

WOOOOOW destruction of context much?
I was trying to give advice as to what to make of someone's play seeming like their past town play, and when jmo said to not bring it up again I figured he thought there was something going on there so I was like "whoa it's not what you think"
Like this feels

really fucking disingenuous

.

Actually Aneni's post I just referring to has a lot of discrediting it seems

It can later be infered (but again you never actually say so) that you scum read him by suggesting you'd jailkeep him if you were the jailkeeper.

Always appreciated your playstyle, but GOD do I hope you're not vig this time

Obviously, I'm not answering this. But you must admit that my Vig-play makes the game more exciting. I mean, if the town's winning I make the game more balanced...

Hope you don't mind if I jailkeep you then

Your vote on Anen then seemingly comes out of nowhere in 309

So you are ambiguous at best over your read on Anen at this point. I'm assuming that your scum read of Anen was that one of his posts felt insincere and discrediting. You seem to have a habit of gaining scum reads from a single post.

You later justify your vote with this single line:

Because he's looking like he's trying to discredit

So you don't think his post was disingenuous, just that it was trying to discredit? TheGoldenParadox then asked you the following question:

Pedit - Gamma, how is Aneinen trying to discredit here? Who/what is he trying to discredit?

To which your response is:

it has to do with Aneni's earlier posting

Please explain to me in what world you have answered this question at all? You have not explained how Anen is discrediting, you have not explained who he's discrediting and you have not explained what he is discrediting. "it has to do with his earlier posting" is no explanation whatsoever and completely avoids the question. I think this just further shows how fabricated this read is. There are plenty of reasons why you could criticise Anen but you aren't even able to justify one of them.

WOOOOOW destruction of context much?

What context? You brought up something than you said it had been the past. What did that

with that comment included

have to do with this game?

The context that I was talking about meta theory, I brought up a past incident, and jmo didn't realize how old it was. I mean

for fuck's sake

Did you not see jmo's 61?

Actually Aneni's post I just referring to has a lot of discrediting it seems

What discrediting?

Maybe it's closer to shading but it seems you're pointing out a lot more scummy things than towny things. I guess it's an inversion of the "scum don't need to townhunt" idea.

Anen himself asks you what discrediting you are on about yet you are still unable to properly explain and yet again avoid the question. Word's like "maybe" and "i guess" clearly shows that you are unsure of this shit explanation you are giving.

I also found these 2 posts quite interesting:

A50 vote Aneni with me

A50 vote Aneni with me

I'll vote somewhere when NSG comes online.

WAIT A SECOND!! Gamma asking ME to work with him?? Is it judgement day already???

I figured it was a fair idea because we had similar thoughts on him
I will admit it's probably a first though

Since the only post A50 had made that had anything to do with Anen was this:

...
Yeah, trying my hardest not to get NK'd on N1 by getting myself lynched on D1. GENIUS!

Also, getting lynched? You weren't wagoned at all!

This was literally taken out of context. Jay was saying my play was nothing like he has ever seen me before (and he only saw me as Town) as an alternative to the "trying too hard not to get NK'd" option.

Can someone please explain to me how anything A50 said her was even remotely similar to what Gamma has been saying? Because I don't see any similarities. Gamma had never criticised Anen for taking things out of context and A50 wasn't even criticising Anen.

Then from here to where you vote Anen again in 590 all you do is encourage Creature to vote for him too and say you're more confident on voting Anen than NSG. After this your only real mentions of him are:

Because he's looking like he's trying to discredit

Although my scumread on went away yesterday, I'm still asking it: where?

I answered this already. The same post by you where I took issue with your analysis of my 58+60 I felt had too little town-tells spotted, I felt like you were not really trying to townhunt which felt scummy.

and

Honestly I'm not sure how much of that game is impacting my read here but I think your play is worse than there tbh (this is before checking that post again as directed)

So don't you dare try and say you have justified your Anen read because you have failed to explain it multiple times even when asked. If I am missing anything then feel free to point it out but this read is absolute horseshit. And now you've unvoted him now that real pressure has come to you other it.

also UNVOTE: because I'm liking Aneni's solviness currently

What a cop out.

You don't believe this read; you never have.

[mutantdevle]

Besides that there's the "he doesn't care for answers" poke which I've been accused of in the past several times so what I'd like you to do is find the responses I haven't engaged with so I can look at them at a glance and see what I make/made of them.

Certainly.

Spoiler: Another wall :/

Your questions:

I mean that secret stuff is aside from obvious shit, like "if anyone fakeclaims vig, just shoot them instead of counterclaiming". I have other plans to deal with fakeclaimers but we'll get to that when

we run up scum

.

And also "don't fakeclaim just to not get lynched".

Oh and also "if you're a PR who's literally about to get lynched within 30 minutes, don't self-hammer".

._.

How would you know?

Setup has a vig, so that's cool. I have a working theory on how to best use it (especially given that we're in evens) but it's gonna require activity and not running things right up to the deadline.

Luckily games with playerlists that all know each other are mad townsided so we should probably be able to lock a lynch much sooner than that.

Don't really see any good strategies other than secret vig plan (I'm interested in discussing this later in the day with mutant actually).

VOTE: Aneninen

Just because you know everyone, doesn't mean everyone else does

Also dino talk to me about this

Math's response:

1. How would I know what?
I more broadly mean that I expect scum to claim a power role so as to dodge the lynch. So we'll deal with the claim situation when it comes.

2. I already did, see my edit above. I think Aneninen is the only player that I personally remember that idk if anyone else does, but it'd be pretty unlikely he literally knows no one else in this list.

Your original acknowledgement of this was only claiming Math is town. You don't actually reply until math calls you out for not caring:

@Gamma: I responded to some things you wanted to talk about in 41. Did you... care?

Clearly, you did not care and thought only to respond when it had been pointed out that you hadn't.

Next:

More people need to be voting.

Specifically, if you're
1. Still on a random vote
2. Not voting anyone

I would like to know why you're not helping me wagon NSG or Aneninen.

You want more to happen, help me move the game forward.

Also why NSG or Aneni? What makes them good early-game wagons?

Response:

@Gamma: I already answered that, keep reading.

You don't respond to this indicating you don't care about why NSG or Anen would be good early game wagons and have no desire to discuss it.


Jmo also never answered this question:

VOTE: luca blight

I want to get this to L-1.

y

You did not pursue the answer because you don't care about it.

HOT TAKE: NSG is locktown. Good to know, moving on then.

Jay isn't scum with mutant. Nice to know I guess.

First line I can agree with. Second not sure what informs it?

Again, this question goes unanswered yet you do not pursue it.

#Important Announcement:

I see you're all making a damn good circus show without me. I'll only intervene when I'm needed, so carry on. (That's me being

very truthful

, in fact)

Why are you "only intervening when needed"? seems like an excuse to lurk until your buddy is wagoned and then protect them
I expect fair activity from you buddy

Fun fact: this question also goes unanswered yet you don't try to pursue it. Is this a pattern I'm noticing here?

But then this question:

@Aneni (I can still call you this right) I answered 77 cos I didn't realize it was meant for one person
Also why is my suspicion of LB poop? I'm suspecting them (Luca what's your pronoun?) because I don't like how they're treating jmo's attempts to advance the gamestate

does get answered:

Why did you answer 250 first, 242 next and finally 245?

While replying to your post saying that I didn't contribute anything, I remembered a few posts that I wanted to bring to light. So I brought them to light.

Okay. This may or may not be true, but it may be totally irrelevant too.

@Aneni (I can still call you this right) I answered 77 cos I didn't realize it was meant for one person

According to your speed how you caught up I doubt that you had missed the context.

Also why is my suspicion of LB poop? I'm suspecting them (Luca what's your pronoun?) because I don't like how they're treating jmo's attempts to advance the gamestate

Again, according to your catch-up you must have had a brief idea about the wagon size.
Besides, there was a Vote Count on Page8. You could have checked the votes.
Posting a FoS is an auto pigeon poop for me.
Also, Luca has had interactions with quite a few other players too. It's strange that you pointed out only Jmo.

I forgot I had a vote on someone tbh. I'm not voting the other guy because I can't remember his name right now and I'm on my phone on a hurry. I'll catch up as soon as possible.

What other guy? You have a scumread and you don't remember his

name

(yet you know it's a guy)?! If you meant Mutant, you actually posted his name earlier.
This doesn't add up at all.

I'm concerned about accidentally hammering
but since you say it's fresh
VOTE: Luca Blight

NoNoNoNoNONONO!
We know that you'd been reading the game before this and your FoS-post.
Even if someone doesn't know whether a wagon consists of 3 or 4 people, they MUST know whether it's fresh or close to hammer.
Your whole catch-up was about producing content-looking posts without any scumhunting behind. You picked a couple of things, and made up a couple of reads.
Scum do such posts.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Gamma Emerald

But then that's the end of the conversation...

I'd just like to point out that there have been multiple questions you have asked and have been answered that you didn't respond to but I'm not including those since they were looking for a simple answer and needed no discussion. However, questions like this have no reason to be asked if you don't actually want to talk about them unless you are simply trying to just look like you're trying to gamesolve.

You ask this:

VOTE: Creature

I do declare that this is legit his only post. And Almost popped in and sang some lyrics for some reason and yelled at Gamma like a grouchy old man. Almost is stubborn enough to do his own shit to his grave, and unless any of you know Aneninen, then he seems like a good starting place right now for my vote.

VOTE: Aneninen

How are either of those remotely scummy...

With no response. You did not pursue.

Why is there

almost definitely

scum in me and jmo, and why are you favouring me as scum?

I'm with this first question, but on a different leaning. Why is jmo possibly scum to you dino?

No answer. Did not pursue.

Read carefully what you quoted, I'm not sure if you misunderstand or if you are the one being

obtuse

here.

Why were you focused on the

basis

so much, rather than looking into the

motive

?

Did not pursue.

what a meme it is to have jay, aneninen, paradox, and almost50 all in the same game

jay lemme tell you about the time paradox claimed babysitter and unironically calmly self-hammered, thinking it was the town thing to do

Edit: I in no way advocate for townreading Jay, lol.

Why all of them

Did not pursue.

How am I being defensive here? I want to know what you're calling defensive so I can determine what I was actually meaning with it

Did not pursue.

JMO: I don't like this. Scumlean because it looks like he has a lot of fluff not trying to move the game forward.

Like why does everyone suspect jmo for this? Did no one read his posts ever?

No one answered this and you didn't seem to care. I'm under the impression this question wasn't supposed to be rhetorical.

Can someone speak with me?

Sure. What are your reads? What do you think of the pushes so far?

Did not pursue.

Pinturicchio
Gamma Emerald
TheGoldenParadox
jmo16mla
mutantdevle

Okay, some of these are meh and need to do more.

some...which?

Did not pursue.

I replied to your case point for point and you dropped it. If you genuinely want to get me lynched perhaps it would be in your interest to try and show why my questions are of a predatory nature, because only Gamma vaguely seems to agree with that and he's in his own world.

I just find it strange how you scumread me based on 1 main thing, yet accept it from others as being town. Like, you're just undermining your own point against me as it's obviously not very AI if people you think are town are doing the same thing.

Scum are wary of 1v1's in general - I'm Town and don't give a f*ck basically. I think you've been all over the place this game and I'm holding you to account for it. As scum I probably wouldn't want this because even if I succeeded in getting you lynched, I wouldn't exactly look good from it.

Excuse me what about me being in my own world? What makes you say that?

Did not pursue.

reads

I can understand these. I don't recall saying "don't push pin if he's not consistent" or w/e. But otherwise the thoughts on me seem fair. However, I've not been reading him on pure meta but mostly on intent. It feels like his intent is towny. As such I haven't been paying attention to meta.
Is this clear as to what determined my Pin read?

Did not pursue.

And that's it I think. Though I did start to skim read a little more towards the end because I got bored and I felt too repetitive.

TLDR: You don't pursue your questions that go unanswered and don't seem to care about the answers once they are given (with a few exceptions where you do actually continue a conversation afterwards). This just gives the impression you don't care about the answers and are just asking questions to make it seem like you are scum hunting.

[mutantdevle]

I think you're scumreading me partially for playstyle (the one-liners are NAI and I can prove it).

Well, it would help if you informed me which parts of my case against you fall under that.

re: mutantcase: i mean i agree with your read but also a shitton of that is definitely gamma's playstyle

Could you answer my above query to Gamma? I'd trust your analysis of it more since a) I am mostly convinced you are town and B) I think Gamma is likely to exaggerate what parts of my case are nullified due to simply being his play style.

[mutantdevle]

As for not voting Luca I've been kinda on edge wrt accidental hammers as of late. In a past game I was hammered because no one was keeping track of votes, and in the game Aneni referenced for my meta I was thinking I was hammered at one point and I was like "shit I didn't get to do anything to stop this".

Fair enough. I can see why that would make you cautious with placing your vote.

Also what's wrong with vote parking in the early game? Along with that, if I didn't have any other suspicions why should I be moving my vote?

Vote parking isn't necessarily scummy if you have no better leads but I just find it odd how you returned to Creature later and were scum reading Anen a while before you changed your vote.

[quote="In post 665As for the Creature vote I felt like that was enough along with his lack of activity so far. As for the issue with my vote sticking on Creature I was still scumreading that one post but his activity had improved so I felt it was 1) better to give him some time and 2) I felt comfortable giving up the point there.[/quote]
I'm still uncomfortable with how single posts are changing your reads on people to scum so easily. Natural reads don't just snap like that unless it's something major, reads should change naturally over time.

Also if I wanted to vote park Creature why not explain why it wasn't a fluke and keep voting? If you think that one post was enough why would something else change that?[/quote]
I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to ask me here.

[mutantdevle]

I'm assuming everyone has read 657 because I have several points in there but 683 is really just 1 point that's stretched out and backup up a lot.

The TLDR for that is that Gamma's lack of justification of his Anen read and inability to properly explain what Anen was discrediting in a post he made makes me believe that Gamma's read on Anen is completely fabricated and not genuine. 683 outlines all the times he mentions his read on Anen and every criticism of him and I point out why it's shit or not a good enough explanation.

[mutantdevle]

@Anen: is that a fancy way of saying mutant is tunneling you

I interpreted it as tunnelling coming from specifically scum by criticising literally everything the player is saying or doing.

Anen's flaw in accusing me of that though is that I'm obviously not going to state the things I find townie about Gamma when I'm tunnelling him. Gamma has, of course, done a few things I'd consider townie. But they don't outway the scum I see in him and having a single fabricated read is a huge scum tell in my opinion. Townies don't just make up their reads. If they don't know how to read someone they place them in null. Sure, a townie can poorly justify their reads. Gamma's reads (specifically his read on Anen and, to some extent, Creature) don't just feel poorly justified but also ingenuine which leads me to believe they are fabricated.

[mutantdevle]

BULLSHIT! You're lying out of your teeth here! Again you miss critical information in my ISO, and you quoted the fucking post so this is inexcusable! I sated earlier that Aneninen destroyed to context of my 58+60, and A50 complain about something of his being taken out of context so I asked him to vote with me since we agreed on that point.

You can't think I'm both lying out of my teeth and have missed critical information, that kinda counters each other.

In this case, yes I did miss something. That being:

WOOOOOW destruction of context much?

Since your main point against Anen seemed to be about the discrediting (since the discrediting part was the only thing to be mentioned several times) it kinda pushed your point of Anen removing context out of my mind so I was not thinking about it when I read A50's post and hence failed to make the connection. I apologise for that. If by "a lot of discrediting" you meant that he simply took that 1 trivial thing you said out of context then that makes a lot more sense for your read. But do you not see how phrasing it as "a lot of discrediting" suggest more that he was trying to nullify a lot of what other people were saying and not just that he took a single thing you specifically said out of context? Perhaps the reason I assumed your main point was the 'discrediting' is because that's the specific part that Anen brought up about what you said about him. This is the reason you should properly explain your reads and not just 1 off state your reasons in forgettable 1 liners.

And of course you can reconsider a read, it's just the way in which you did it seemed scummy to me. It seemingly came from nowhere as you showed no sign of previously town reading him and it was only at a time when you were facing heat over your scum read of him and he was sticking up for you slightly. Can you not see how that would be scummy from my POV? And my read of you is most certainly not locked, my reads are never something that I'd refuse to reconsider because I'm not arrogant or closed minded like that. And for the record, I wouldn't have given you more shit for keeping your scum read - but you shouldn't be basing your reads on whether or not I give you shit for them.


I fully understand your interactions with wanting A50 on the Anen wagon, so consider my points about that countered and nullified. But that was only 1 of many reasons I thought your Anen read was fabricated. However, with the new context that your main reason for scum reading Anen was that he took something you said out of context, that makes your read on him more justified from your point of view and hence less likely to be fabricated. There are still weak points in your criticisms of Anen though so I'd have to reconsider whether I genuinely consider that read fabricated - though my thinking about it will naturally be biased from previously believing it's fabricated. As scum, you'd probably take confidence in knowing you've placed doubt in my mind (though anyone too familiar with my meta would know that that isn't hard) but, since there are other reasons I scum read you, you have a while yet before I'm properly off your back.

[mutantdevle]

you're lying about having actually tried to ISO me fully.
As for the process from "destruction of context" to "looks like discrediting", I had skimmed and noted the egregiousness of the response to my post, then I went back to look closer and felt the amount of negative points was oddly high. So both of those were true at the same time. As for the quick read change is it something you'd say town never does? And I'm not "basing my reads on whether you give me shit for them"; that very conceited and misrepresentative in a way that tries to paint me as caring what you think about me.
And honestly I didn't say this yet but I think part of my read (like 20%) on Anen was OMGUS because of voting me for not catching up before interacting in real time.

I'm not lying about ISOing you fully. I ISO'd you initially and skim read things to make sure I wasn't making mistakes when I made my initial push on you. I then ISOd you to look at all your points against Anen as per your request and then I ISOd you a third time to find all the questions that you didn't care about the answers for. I obviously did not read and memorise every single word you said. Naturally, if your point about the discrediting is mentioned more than your point about ignoring context then it's going to be the one I remember.

And no, of course it's not impossible for town to have a sudden read change. I suppose I should probably be expecting it from you at this point since you seem to form scum reads on single posts. But generally, I consider quick read changes to have a higher chance of being fabricated. But my interpretation of your sudden read changes is obviously going to be that it's scummy due to the bias that I already read you as scum. And if you didn't care about what I thought of you then you wouldn't be interacting with me and countering my points. The simple fact that everyone of either alignment wants to be seen as town for the purpose of their wincon means that naturally we all care about each others opinion.

I'm glad you admit that part of your read on Anen was OMGUS. Not many people are actually capable of admitting that. I must ask though, how much of your read on me do you consider to be OMGUS?

[mutantdevle]

Okay well you're not paying attention at all then because you're constantly making mistakes when ISOing me.
Alright you seem to be fine on the read change thing but you've already been called out for the tell so I can't go "oh he's improving he might be town" because you're very likely to have noticed that and to have attempted to cut it out of your posting.And sure everyone cares about how they're read but you make it sound like I'm tailoring them to you, which is very much not the case.
My read on you is 0% OMGUS. I wasn't really scumreading you until I started getting into your points and noticing errors that I felt were more likely to be scum bullshitting rather than honest town mistakes, along with the Regardless Of Card thing.

I am paying attention, I just failed to memorise 1 sentence that was kinda crucial to explaining your motivation. And what do you mean by I've been called out for 'the tell'? You mean the regardless of card thing? I disagree that I'm doing that since I'm not criticising literally everything you do and I'm still open to the possibility you are town. I'm just not praising you for your town tells as I obviously scum read you. After all, tunnelling people isn't just about getting people lynched, it's also about seeing how they react under pressure so that you can sort them. And I haven't cut anything out of my posting; I'm still posting normally. I'm also not trying to make it sound like you're tailoring your reads towards me specifically, my point was that you came across as though you backed down on a read based on pressure due to the sudden nature of the read change (which I'm now assuming is not AI for you but I'll make sure to check your meta at some point since both you and math have stated that part of my points against you are over your playstyle). Finally, I think my mistakes are neither scum bs nor honest town mistakes. They are simple human error.

[mutantdevle]

You've made multiple errors analysing my posts. You may not be scumreading all that I'm doing but the fact you went after me for changing my read tells me you didn't care what I did, you were just going to hound me on it. As for changing reads based on being pressured on them, I am actually against that since I have a bad memory of one time I did that and the person I let go, went to 4p mylo as scum and won. As such I'm rather disinclined to drop a read just because someone says "that's wrong". fyi the quick read change is a thing that has only happened in select few games iirc so if you need those I'll point you to them. How are your mistakes simpple human error? I'd think you'd try to improve if you actually cared to sort me.

What are my other errors? I'm only aware of the context and A50 mistake. And I don't 'go after you' for simply changing your vote; I was tunnelling you long before that. But obviously I'm going to pull you up on any additional things you do that I view as scummy. I'm not too sure what you're trying to argue with your anecdote but eh. And you say that quick read changes only happen in a few games for you? So why has it happened 3 times in this game? And my mistakes are simple human error because the only mistake you have shown me thus far is me simply not registering that your read on Anen was to do with how he neglected context. And what do you consider an improvement? What are you trying to get me to improve? I'd argue that I can't improve anything until I know your alignment. Also, I am trying to sort you, that's a given when it comes to pushing someone.

[mutantdevle]

I've kinda tuned them out as well and have been posting non-game related stuff to get noticed and see if they'd jump for my throat so I could do something this game, but they are in their own world.

Lol I thought that was just your normal play.

[mutantdevle]

what kind of "mistakes" are you referring to?

what the fuck "stupid mistakes" have i even made lol

i've done more for publicly sorting players than you have mutant

also how can something be a stupid mistake as scum but simultaneously be an awesome play as town

a stupid play is stupid regardless of alignment unless you're shooting yourself in the foot by being too pro-town

Lol my point was that I think your gambits and indeed gambits and not stupid mistakes. I wasn't saying you had made any stupid mistakes you sillies. It's just someone mentioned earlier who scum reads math that his gambits were fake (specifically his one about changing the lock town read on NSG). I could only assume that their belief was that this was actually scum math being flip floppy. Scum math wouldn't be so stupid as to so blatantly flip flop on a read which means it was irrefutably just a gambit.

[mutantdevle]

TL;DR: about 80% of Mutant's case is based upon Gamma's scumread on me.

Lol no. Just because that's what I spent the most time talking about doesn't mean it's my main argument. There was just a lot more hard evidence for that (which has obviously now been disproven now that my mistake in missing 1 forgettable line of text has been acknowledged).

[mutantdevle]

@jmo, when you can, could you give some reads on a few people with, at the very least, brief explanations? I skim read your iso and you seem a little like a closed book in that aspect.

[mutantdevle]

Spoiler: Compare this from Mutant's Town game:

Hey, so here are my reads that nobody asked for:

Yuria - Slightly scummy in my opinion. They only have 2 posts and they avoided a question with another question. Whilst this stuff isn't really a scum tell overall they don't seem that useful to the town so I would be up for lynching them since we don't know much day 1.
Ectomancer - Whilst I'm split on the tell of their tactic to force wagons on us, they seem fairly reasonable and like someone who is willing to at least contribute a lot. So at the moment, I think they are worth keeping around.
IceGuy - I don't really get many vibes from him of either alignment. I don't really see why there are votes against him.
DeasVail - He seems very friendly. To the point where I would derp clear him as town. Though this is mafia, so a nice guy approach might just be a facade.
Transcend - His posts consist of a whole lot of nothing and some of them are somewhat misleading. The only credit I could give them right now is that they are active. But the slight scumminess in the lack of sense that they are writing means I would be comfortable lynching them at this stage.
Fishythefish - I trust the fishy for now. I would like to see him post a little more though as I feel like he has more to offer than what we've seen so far.
Elmo TeH AzN - Her posts are short and brief which isn't too useful. I don't think there is anything scummy about her, but due to her lack of meaningful contribution, I would be willing to lynch them day 1.
Luca Blight - Another player that seems reasonable in what they are saying. I feel like he has a way of seeing wider logic which I think is useful late game.
kelbris - I like his logic and how he offers his opinion into the discussion. He is a seemingly useful player that I would not be comfortable lynching day 1.
sheepsaysmeep - He seems rather unnoticeable to me. Before isolating his posts I only thought he had 1. Other than that they seem okay though.
havingfitz - I don't like how he passively suggested Transcend revealed being the IC so early in the game. Pretty scummy if you ask me. Whether or not they are indeed mafia I think this kind of bad thinking wouldn't be helpful to town in the long run so I'd be willing to lynch them day 1. Despite this, they do seem like they would be helpful.
Lil Uzi Vert - He has not been helpful in anyway whatsoever. Hist posts are literally just an introduction, votes, and a single emoji. Based on how I vote on day 1 lynches, which if you haven't noticed is more based on usefulness than it is scum tells, he is the person I would be most prepared to lynch.

mutantdevle - He seems like an utter noob which can get annoying. Not sure what to make of this guy.

davesaz - They haven't spoken in a long time. I'd like to see them speak more.




Btw my attitude towards day 1 lynches is, since we don't know much, I prefer to lynch based on how useful I think the players will be. The only time I really move away from this is if either someone makes a proper slip and we can actually be fairly confident that they are actually scum or the pressures of time means that I'd have to vote for somone I am not really okay with lynching but still think it is worth losing them in order to not end the day in a no lynch.

Spoiler: To his reads list in this game:

Reads list here, if anyone wants me to explain any of them then feel free to ask:

Town

Mathdino

Town lean

JaydragonKing
Aneninen
TheGoldenParadox

Null

Almost50
Pinturicchio
jmo16mla

Scum lean

Luca Blight
northsidegal
Creature

Scum

Gamma Emerald


VOTE: Creature
I was going to vote Gamma here but then Math posted 397. Slightly cautious that Math is scum trying to guide us but I don't believe that based on my town read and I'm sure if those pings are true then there'd be something to it later in the game.

Also note the first one is earlier in the game than the one he posted this game - too early for such a reads list really, but just look at the curiosity and enthusiasm in that post as well as his comfortable tone.

Yeah, I don't do that anymore.

Comparing my play to the one I played with you is probably the least accurate representation of me. That was the first game I had ever played where everyone present was there to take the game seriously and I just so happened to get a PR (admittedly I was a bad innocent child getting town read so much). On my previous forum you were expected to have strong reads by page 3 or you'd get called scum so that's why that was so early. I probably was more enthusiastic for that game since I could put a lot more time into it then. I'm bogged down by college work now as I have been for my last few games.

[mutantdevle]

Mutant

His opening gut-pinged me a bit.

I do find his apparent surprise that people suspected his self-vote odd as well - Such an opening could be townie if it's intended to move the game forward by deliberately drawing such suspicion on himself, but to dismiss such suspicion clearly means this wasn't his intention.

Up until being informed about its purpose in this game, I had been under the impression that all RVS votes were pure jokes. As such, every single RVS vote I have made in every game I have played has been joke based. So I didn't expect anyone to draw reads from my self-vote because I thought it would be 100% interpreted as a joke. It's now been explained to me that RVS isn't just a joke and is more intended to start the game off I'll likely be less jokey with RVS in future games.

167 - Mutant said he likes the discussion between me and Math as we're both players he'd like to sort, but I don't believe he ever goes on to comment on our discussions or openly attempt to sort us? He says he distrusts me here but doesn't specify why.

Since my first game on this site I've tended not to explain reads unless either asked to or that player is in discussion. So just as a note for all future games, just ask me about things and I'll be fully transparent about them. Your discussion with Math didn't really have too much of a definitive conclusion for me tbh as most of it seemed like pointless back and forth. I came out of it with a town lean on math and scum lean on you but I feel that's more to do with your playstyles than anything else. I think I'm always going to naturally distrust you at the start of games due to the aggressiveness of your playstyle.

185 - So basically Mutant was going to unvote as soon as Anen said something? It just seems like a pointless move on Mutant's part.

I'd have kept my vote on if I didn't like Anen's response in a scummy way but yeah, admittedly, that was a pointless vote. My pressure votes usually are. That's why I don't tend to vote unless it's to get the target of my vote lynched as I know my votes often have little or no impact.

399 - Has me down as a 'scum-lean' even though he's not commented on me at all other than to say he 'distrusts me', without actually saying why he distrusts me. His whole attitude to the Math v Luca things just feels really lazy to me. I don't know why he's townreading Anen - that doesn't match-up with what he's posted so far. I don't like how he's repeatedly following Math this game either.

I explain my scum lean on you above. I don't think of you as scum anymore though. You're null to me now. I'm beginning to trust you more but not as easily as last game. Our last game I started trusting you because I agreed with a lot of what you said - I don't feel that so much here. Though reading people off of shared opinions is probably a bad outlook on a game as it makes me susceptible to being pocketed; I acknowledge that but still fall for it :/ As for Anen, my read on him has changed. Though that should be obvious by my comments on him. I initially town read him because his first interactions with me reminded me of my interactions with A50 in stack the deck where I scum read him despite a legit bodyguard claim, so I thought that my first instinct that he was scummy would be flat out wrong like it was with A50. But now I'm leaning towards my instinct a little more.

469 - He's talking about doing stuff but not actually doing stuff. I don't see why he has to wait for NSG to post before pushing Gamma.

I didn't want my Gamma case to distract from sorting NSG. Creature is someone who is easily sorted once a decent amount of time has passed but it felt like we were zeroing in on NSG at the time. If I had started pushing Gamma at that point it would have pulled attention away from Math's attempts to read them and I wanted my push to be exactly that, a push, not a counter to NSG.

650 - I don't like the confidence of his Math townread. Myself and others have repeatedly pointed out reasons why Math is scummy, which Mutant has ignored.

I don't really agree with the reasons Math is being scum read tbh and I don't feel the need to strongly defend him over them either, hence why I've ignored most of it. The 'scummy' things are pretty much just Math's gambits. I can understand why he'd be scum read over these things as they make sense to be coming from scum but I don't see it as that and believe what he says about them so that makes him town to me.

[mutantdevle]

I'd like an updated readslist from Mutant soon.

As per all my reads lists, if you want any 1 read explained then you just have to ask.

Town:

MathDino

-0

Town Lean:

TheGoldenParadox

-0

Pinturicchio

^1

Creature

^2

Null:

jmo16mla

-0

Luca Blight

^1

northsidegal

^1

Scum Lean:

JaydragonKing

v2

Aneninen

v2

Scum:

Gamma Emerald

-0

I'd actually just like to explain my Jay read in particular. Right now they feel really forgettable. I had to ISO Jay just to see what they had even been saying over the last few pages and, honestly, 582 I feel is the last time they made a decent post. Since then it's been pure fluff and minor input. I know Jay to be quite fluffy which is why I paid no attention to it previously but now that I've realised there is barely any contribution in between the fluff which feels like Jay is really disengaged and has nothing to contribute.

[mutantdevle]

let's play a game, everyone – someone tell me the difference between this post:

Spoiler:

Well well well, let's start the hunting.
About GDP: too much scum coming from him. Added to what I said before, post 298, where he tell us his lynch pile, is basically what a somewhat townread at that point, Ghostlin, said. This was noted by Querty a few posts later, and I really like that he did, because is a fair point, and I was having trouble reading him (Querty) until that point. GDP also puts in L-1 over sheep and Red in different occasions without giving explanations beforehand.

About Cabd: there's a post where Querty said something fantastic about this game: "pizza is lurking and eat each other's livers...". Yeah, pretty much, this game is nuts, everyone is hitting everyone, so is difficult to see between this mess who is scum. And then there is Cabd, the IC. He doesn't need to interact so much because we are in page 31 on day one, that's a great newbie game! But, as Querty said about Pizza, a great strat in a game with this much interaction is staying away from it. I get it: you don't want to engage too much in a Newbie Game, but you shouldn't be the one saying "sometimes I get misslynched for this", that sounded like "don't lynch me because I'm not engaging". If you are town and people is suspecting about you for not engaging, then... Engage, haha.

About Jodaxq: I don't really like her playstyle. She does a lot of questions, and that creates a lot of content for reading people, but where is your own content so we can read you? You just ask everyone about their actions or say if you like what they say or not. Would love to see your actual readings right now. That being said, I think your questions have played a significant role for town, so I'm inclined to believe that you are in fact trying to help.

About Cheeky: I like what I see from her, but not that much for townreading her. I just read 31 pages and can't really remember something that caught my attention, just a general idea about her being townish.

About Querty: as I said, first pages I thought he was being scummy, but after he stood in front of GDP, I really think he's town. Sure, it's really easy to make a case on a player who is being attacked by everyone, but Querty gave thoughtfull readings about him, not just repeating what someone else was saying with other words.

About Ghostlin: same as Cheeky, but better. Loved his first posts, I think all my reads were really close to what he said. I'm not implying that if he reads the same as me, he is conftown; what a mean is, his posts made sense to me. A lot.

About Gamma: Sorry, but you have in your bag Red's playing. That's not necessarily bad, tho: I read Red like a scummy town, and when you got in I read you as town too. But, as I said, Red makes you a null for me now.

About Brassherald: didn't really like Sheep's playstyle, and you are too early to read, so let's make it a null.

TL;DR:
Townreads: Ghostlin and Querty
Townleans: Cheeky and Jodaxq
Null: Brassherald and Gamma
Scumreads: GDP and Cabd

and this one:

Ok guys, I've tried to be as fast as I can, but this game is much more fast paced that I thought it was. I've been reading though, and I have some thoughts I want to share. I think the best way I can do this post without using a whole page is doing a summary of my reads and then a spoiler with bigger and better explanations.

First of all, my townreads (in this order): Luca, GoldenParadox and Mathdino.

Spoiler: Townreads

I'm now very sure Luca and Mathdino are just obsessed with each other and their 1v1 is more like egos fighting than scumhunting (or townhunting, whatever you like more). Luca is my most townread now because he could have backed off when the 1v1 was over, but he went for it again. Why doing that when there's much more easier targets to mislynch than Dino? And from Dino's perspective, 1v1ing Luca is a bad idea too; Luca's like a bulldog, he bites and doesn't release his prey no matter what. Getting in an argument with him, with how agressive and persuasive he is, is certainly a bad idea as scum, unless he really loves smelling his own farts and think he can get towncred by "winning" the 1v1, which is a possibility, but when Luca flips green (if), that towncred would do a 180 turn. I'm only giving less towncred to Dino because of the possibility of trying to be the townleader as scum, something I try to do when I play IRL, but he's nowhere near in my suspects radar. PARANOIA MODE ON: if Luca and Dino are both scum and they are trying to put themselves against each other as antagonists, I already lost this game. PARANOIA MODE OFF.
tl;dr: this 1v1 reminds me a lot of Death Note; you just want to be right for the sake of it. The difference is that this is not a Light Yagami vs L, but an L vs L, which would be an interesting anime if you ask me.

About GoldenParadox: something I noted from our last game where he was scum is that he reacts very poorly to pressure and being scumread, and he also tried to mislead town with a lot of going all over the place. Here's different: much more measured reads, and he's criticizing Dino for something he did a lot in that game (Newbie 1849). "Hey, I do tend to be flip floppy when I'm scum, and Dino is being flip floppy... Maybe he's scum!". It's not uncommon to do that reasoning, even if it's bad reasoning. Also, Golden is the only player I have read in many other games, and if I remember correctly, I always got his alignment right except for one time where he fakeclaimed being VT. He's not a good scumplayer; at this point of the game I would already noticed something weird, but there's nothing I find scummy in him. He's behind Luca only because I need more posting from him to be completely sure.

Townleans: NSG, Jay and Creature (in this order, too).

Spoiler: Townleans

I need more content from NSG to sort her out, but I'm giving her towncred for her reaction to her wagon, specifically to her confrontation with Dino. NSG not posting doesn't tell me anything bad about her; on the contrary, if she was scum, she would be worried being in the same game with Dino, knowing that he would possibly go over her to sort her at the beginning of the game. Between "I don't want to be sorted by Dino, I will just lay down and wait to see what happens" and "I'm busy", I'm inclined to believe the latter than the former.

My townlean on Jay is abstolutely a gut read and because of the reads on her of more experienced players than me. I think she hasn't contributed a lot, BUT her lynchpool post in 312 seems thoughtful and real.

I have two main reasons to believe Creature is town, but both aren't good enough to townread him and I'm not trusting myself in this: first, a lot of players have said he is a bad scum player, so the louder players (like Dino) would have sorted him out at this point of the game or at least begin pushing him. I know Dino wanted to do a NSG vs Creature wagons, but he pushed NSG instead of Creature and he hasn't gone over Creature even when he came back with a lot of content; the second reason is a longshot and I preffer not to discuss it for now.

Nulls: jmo, Almost50 and Aneninen (again, in that order).

Spoiler: Nulls

I had to ISO jmo to remember why I gutread him as scum, and he got out of that read with two posts: 240 and 253. I can't see scum motivation to explain why two players can't be on the same team, and his push on Gamma seemed real. The problem is, he hasn't given much more content, and he could be fencing now that "loud" players are townreading him, but he's closer to a townlean right now. Almost too troll to read, I don't know his meta so there isn't much content to know what he's going for. Aneninen, on the other hand: I really don't like his playstyle; I've seen other players doing what he's doing and I always gutfeel they're scum. He makes long posts with a lot of doubt of everyone else's posts, but doesn't really engage with anyone, even when he has a lot of scumleans and scumreads. Feel like he makes a lot of content but not trying to solve the game. BUT, as I said, I always think this is scummy, and I've read games where I was really wrong about this type of players, so I think I'm a little biased.

Scumlean: mutant.

Spoiler: mutant

His "I don't conform to site meta. I usually look more an more townie" still seems scummy to me. I agree with Creature saying he seems fence sitting, his posts aren't that thoughtful, and saying he's interested in jumping on NSG wagon without really doing it was weird as hell. There's only one reason I'm not scumreading him: I feel like his reads are outdated, so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt until I see where is he now.

Scumread: Gamma.

Spoiler: Gamma

I have to talk about myself first to explain this: If I were someone else, I would be at least nullreading myself for how I have played at this point. I'm lurking a lot, have some awkward posts, tend to post only if I'm being alluded, and this is completely different to my playstyle in Newbie 1849: there, I was giving thoughtful reads, catching up every time I could, going all over the place and, in summary, helping to solve the game. Because of this, I expected at least a call for attention from Gamma, but he instead went to defend me telling everyone I'm new to the site and shouldn't be pushed if I'm inconsistent or not being gamesolvey. I felt pocketed, as he pocketing the newbie who said some posts ago that was having trouble with his reads and would "follow the leader" if necessary. Pocketing a newbie seems an easy task, and implies having two votes instead of one when an important decision must be done.

I'm doing this long post mostly because I fell behind this game as there has been a lot of meta readings and strategy aroun this kind of reads, so there's nothing much I could talk about during those conversations. With this, I'm expecting to be engaged so I can contribute with more content and help everyone sort me and help me sorting everyone.

May I just ask, what was the point you were trying to make here? I don't think a conclusion was ever reached.

[mutantdevle]

The symbols and numbers represent how they've changed since my last reads list. ^# is how many places they've moved up, -0 means they're still in the same position, and v# is how many places they've moved down.

math is making a lot of sense for me with what he is doing. I agree with a lot of what he is saying and he is making a real effort to sort people. I don't agree with a lot of the reasons you scum read him though I do understand why you could be. I believe what he says is true about the intent behind is gambits and reaction tests. I can't deny that I'm probably giving him town points for his playstyle but I have been trying to keep an open mind about that. I'm usually able to tell if I am being biased and I don't feel like I am here.

[mutantdevle]

I clicked submit and saw your post was there but couldn't be bothered to edit my post so I just posted it anyway.

And by content I mean specifically scum hunting content.

[mutantdevle]

You ever heard of

Laissez-faire

, Mutant?

Don't give me history lesson flashbacks because that gives me Vietnam flashbacks which then gives me further history lesson flashbacks.

I mean, I got full marks on 2/3 of my history exams but god did I hate my history teacher.


Also, if you're not going to interact then don't expect my read on you to get any better. In fact, if you're going to insist on being here without doing anything then I'd consider you a good kill for a vig.

[mutantdevle]

@mutant: I believe we have a ghosted read on your list.

Mfw... I'm surprised no one else picked up on that. Maybe if you posted more you wouldn't be so forgettable?

You're still null. You're not as loud as you usually are this game but I don't scum read it. Which is odd because I usually scum read you just for talking So I'm not sure if I should be taking my lack of scum reading you as I sign that you are actually scum but that just confuses me so...

Please just talk more so that I can sort you please?

[mutantdevle]

Do you think it's scummy for someone to go on the first games you've ever played to push a bad meta case on you?

Well I've only been on this site for just over 4 months, so no. It's still valid meta. His flaw is that he was just using his own meta of me (which he even admitted could possibly be outdated) instead of my general meta.

[mutantdevle]

What do you think about Anen's "rage post"?

I was going to comment on that but decided not to because I felt too biased in what I wanted to say. But basically I don't see why he'd be losing his

shit

pigeon poop over 3 votes. Maybe it's because of the 3 specific people that are voting for him or that more of us have expressed scum reads / interest in voting him but it still feels kinda defeatist. I know I can get defeatist too but only when I'm REALLY wagoned. So basically I just feel like his rage is an over reaction - possibly for town cred.

[mutantdevle]

I'm fine with your survival play style tbh (pedit: @jay).

I'm just hoping that, whatever your alignment, you're streak of always winning / always losing doesn't continue.

I like your explanation though.

[mutantdevle]

I'd vote jmo as well, mainly out of my day 1 policy of lynching the useless. His last proper post was 368 and his 3 posts since then have all be prodges. I'm comfortable on Gamma for now though.

Also, I can kinda agree with some of the stuff said about Math, but I still think this is obviously his town game. The only way I think I'd reconsider my read on him is if either he or a theoretical partner majorly slipped or Gamma flipped scum on the basis that math's attitude towards their wagon could easily be bussing scum who backs out when it gets serious. But yes, I can scum read Gamma and town read math because A) Gamma hasn't flipped and B) Math wouldn't automatically be scum for that 1 thing.

@jmo if you do decide to magically start contributing then please address my question I asked you a while ago.

[mutantdevle]

Mutant is still my most scumread

Yeah but why? Your point about me being scum is basically that I chose to scum read Gamma, why do you think that? You have a reason to scum read me but no real basis.

[mutantdevle]

Wow, speaking of the devil

I'd just like to take a moment to appreciate this phrase as I like how it coincides with my love for puns when used specifically about me.

[mutantdevle]

Scumlean: mutant. His "I don't conform to site meta. I usually look more an more townie" still seems scummy to me. I agree with Creature saying he seems fence sitting, his posts aren't that thoughtful, and saying he's interested in jumping on NSG wagon without really doing it was weird as hell. There's only one reason I'm not scumreading him: I feel like his reads are outdated, so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt until I see where is he now.

I said this about you long ago and I'm still feeling it, mostly because of PoE now. If you give us and uptaded readlist I could reconsider but that would screw me as I really wouldn't know where to go; I don't know who of my "usual suspects" would be a better lynch.

The thing that annoys me about people who call me scummy because I said I don't conform to site meta is because y'all are treating it as though it was something I brought up to justify a scummy thing I did. Not only had I barely spoken prior to this but I was also not the one who even brought it up. Math described my playstyle as scummy, I refuted that Idea by saying I simply just don't conform to site meta.

The only justification I can see for scum reading me based on that is if you think I'm trying to say "please excuse my scummy actions, that's just my play style". But, if anything, I was saying the opposite by refuting the claim that my playstyle is scummy. Furthermore, I haven't actually done anything scummy that's needed justifying by such a claim; unless you count human error as scummy like Gamma seems to.

And if your point is more literal than that by trying to say that my notion of not following site meta is scummy, then friendly reminder that it's my meta to not follow site meta as many people present can confirm on a whim. So basically, to everyone using this 1 sentence as a tell on me (not just pintu): stfu. The only valid reasons I think anyone could scum read me at this point is not being townie enough - either in general or compared to my previous town games. All other reasons I'm going to find inherently suspicious.


Also Pintu, I gave a reads list in 827 which wasn't that long ago. If you want an update from that then just pretend Jay is sitting in null. I would also drop you from a town lean to a null but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt in being a noobie (I really hope I'm not just underestimating you here). Finally, for some reason, I feel like moving jmo to a scum lean but I have no idea why since he hasn't actually said anything - I'm probably just losing patience with him.

[mutantdevle]

Ehh, I suppose that's fair if you think everyone else is town.

Of course, the biggest concern there would be that you think everyone else is town :3

[mutantdevle]

My current lynch pool: Gamma > jmo > Anen > Luca.
However, my vig pool: jmo > Jay > creature > A50?

If you're wondering why they're so different it's because I don't think vigs should be shooting their scum reads because that's 'playing the hero' as math roughly referred to it. You've gotta be either hella arrogant or hella confident to be shooting at your scum reads. Instead, vig kills should be spent on policy kills and players who are likely to be mislynched.

[mutantdevle]

Yeah math but literally anyone could be a PR and the vig could shoot any PR without knowing and without warning. If the vig takes a shot, I'd want it to be on someone I currently consider to be useless. I'd obviously prefer if he started talking but if that's not going to happen then I don't want him lurking to lylo.

[mutantdevle]

Backup role cop is also a PR...

[mutantdevle]

Honestly, I thought there was at least 1 other person still on Gamma with me... I still don't understand why everyone unvoted Gamma tbh. It was like you unvoted because you didn't explicitly town read those of us on the wagon (which is fair enough I guess) and then it was like everyone else on that wagon was like "oh shit, that means he suspects us, better get off before we get scum read by math!" so that's something worth revisiting later if Gamma flips.

My problem with the Anen wagon is that there is indeed a distinct lack of a case which I'm not too comfortable with. I get scummy vibes from him myself but I've never really been able to place that into any substance and he's remained just a tone read for me. Does anyone share that sentiment? Though yeah, I do tend to be a sheep resistant player (I wouldn't say I have a lack of reads though).

VOTE: Aneninen

Does anyone actually have a case here though?

Pedit: That's L-1...

[mutantdevle]

I feel like unvoting...

[mutantdevle]

Ok, thank you. I was not ok voting for Aneninen if that implied risking Jay, as I'm not scumreading her.
VOTE: Aneninen

This vote makes me feel uncomfortable. I don't get why you'd be basing your vote on Anen on Jay getting scum read if he flipped scum by 1 player...?

[mutantdevle]

And how can you be so certain that Anen's flip would have any impact on Jay anyway?

[mutantdevle]

Okay I'm happy with my vote.

[mutantdevle]

Okay I'm happy with my vote.

what suddenly made you happy with your vote there?

My vote was going to put Anen at L-2 which I was fine with but then I saw Pintu's vote and saw my vote would put him to L-1 which I was hesitant to do because of a potential hammer - but I decided to vote anyway since any premature hammers would basically be a scum claim. I then looked into Pintu's reason for voting and it just wasn't adding up to me. It felt scummy and I don't think Pintu has ever mentioned a desire to vote Anen and I don't think he's ever scum read him (I might be wrong on that though). At first, it felt like a reason to justify not voting for Anen which made me think Pintu was scum and hence I was further uncomfortable with my vote because scum on a wagon usually means a mislynch. But the more I thought about it the more it felt like a last minute attempt to get on the wagon to bus a declared doomed scum buddy.

I'm not really up for a Pintu wagon since my main basis for now suddenly being suspicious of him is that he's potential buddies with Anen. If Anen were to flip town, I could still consider this vote be due to Pintu's inexperience - An inexperience I can relate to because I remember wanting to be on every lynch that goes through regardless of my read as I thought it was the townie thing to do which I only started dropping on my first game on this site.

[mutantdevle]

Am I giving Pintu too much noob credit? I feel like I have been throughout this game.

[mutantdevle]

Okay I'm happy with my vote.

what suddenly made you happy with your vote there?

My vote was going to put Anen at L-2 which I was fine with but then I saw Pintu's vote and saw my vote would put him to L-1 which I was hesitant to do because of a potential hammer - but I decided to vote anyway since any premature hammers would basically be a scum claim. I then looked into Pintu's reason for voting and it just wasn't adding up to me. It felt scummy and I don't think Pintu has ever mentioned a desire to vote Anen and I don't think he's ever scum read him (I might be wrong on that though). At first, it felt like a reason to justify not voting for Anen which made me think Pintu was scum and hence I was further uncomfortable with my vote because scum on a wagon usually means a mislynch. But the more I thought about it the more it felt like a last minute attempt to get on the wagon to bus a declared doomed scum buddy.

I'm not really up for a Pintu wagon since my main basis for now suddenly being suspicious of him is that he's potential buddies with Anen. If Anen were to flip town, I could still consider this vote be due to Pintu's inexperience - An inexperience I can relate to because I remember wanting to be on every lynch that goes through regardless of my read as I thought it was the townie thing to do which I only started dropping on my first game on this site.

I already stated I'm voting Aneninen because I'm following Dino and I've declared myself unable to read Aneninen. I also liked the wagon's composition until you got in here, and thought exactly the same thing you are saying about me: bussing on a declared doomed scum buddy", are you projecting yourself on me for some towncred if Aneninen flips scum?

Why ask a pointless question like that? Obviously, my answer is no regardless of my alignment. And I would have been voting before you had I not thrown shade at those who abandoned the Gamma wagon just because math left.

[mutantdevle]

My vote was going to put Anen at L-2 which I was fine with but then I saw Pintu's vote and saw my vote would put him to L-1 which I was hesitant to do because of a potential hammer - but I decided to vote anyway since any premature hammers would basically be a scum claim. I then looked into Pintu's reason for voting and it just wasn't adding up to me. It felt scummy and I don't think Pintu has ever mentioned a desire to vote Anen and I don't think he's ever scum read him (I might be wrong on that though). At first, it felt like a reason to justify not voting for Anen which made me think Pintu was scum and hence I was further uncomfortable with my vote because scum on a wagon usually means a mislynch. But the more I thought about it the more it felt like a last minute attempt to get on the wagon to bus a declared doomed scum buddy.

I'm not really up for a Pintu wagon since my main basis for now suddenly being suspicious of him is that he's potential buddies with Anen. If Anen were to flip town, I could still consider this vote be due to Pintu's inexperience - An inexperience I can relate to because I remember wanting to be on every lynch that goes through regardless of my read as I thought it was the townie thing to do which I only started dropping on my first game on this site.

let me get this straight – you think pintu's vote was bad and it made you hesitate on keeping your vote there, but then you figured that it was a bus, so you felt good about it still flipping scum. your second paragraph doesn't follow with this. if pintu's vote was scummy initially but not scummy because you figure it's a bus, 1) that still makes pintu scum and 2) why do you just write it off as inexperience at the end instead of in the first place?

like, a scummy vote still makes someone scum even if you think it's scum budding their buddy.

At first I thought you were misinterpreting what I was saying but then I realised you're right and I'm flat out wrong... this is why you don't scum hunt at 3 PM in the morning buzzing with caffeine whilst pulling an all-nighter to catch up on college work.

VOTE: pinturicchio

If pintu is scum then Anen probably is also, but if pintu flips town then Anen could still be scum anyway - not the other way round.

[mutantdevle]

Finally getting around to mutant devle's wall of "unanswered questions"
38+39 I responded to Math in 202, ok |

I never said you didn't respond to this. I said you didn't respond until math called you out for not responding. Huge difference.

|
204 I'm pretty sure I responded to Math's response by telling him I still didn't see it? |

Yes but you never pursued it which indicates a lack of care.

|
209 that was clearly answered by jmo stating it was to get the game going. I should have stated that but I don't really think it's necessary to tie off loose questions. |

Because you don't care. Besides, jmo never explicitly states this is the reason.

|
236 also got answered, I think jmo pointed it out? |

Ahh yes fair enough.

|
249 wasn't actually a question; it was a jab at A50 because I wanted him to not have an excuse to lurk away.
257's response kinda got lost in the wall. However my general response can be seen in how I reacted to the two votes on me from Anen and whoever else voted me that time frame. |

Saying "chill the fuck out" is hardly engagement with a convertsation though IMO.

|
270 I'm gonna address this later |

Umm okay... but my point will still stand that you didn't originally care about the answer.

|
271 honestly he already answered in 152, so eh. Didn't note it though so it's a fair cop
283 what the fuck? I'm fairly certain Luca responded. Infact I checked and it's

the next post

. I don't think you actually care about looking for the resolutions, you're just trying to sling mud at me any way you can. |

My bad, I appologise for that point.

|
292 wasn't exactly responding to a serious comment so why should I be hounding down an answer? This is a

very questionable

poke as it's not even caring about context of the question at all. And also Mathdino answered so

again

, not caring for the truth, just wants his lynch. Keep on going Manfred. |

This one I missed because of the way I was checking if the questions were answered as I was using CTRL+F to search for the post numbers as a reponse. Since he did not quote your post, I missed his response. Though that's my fault for not reading the next few posts after your question to see if such situation had occured.

|
343 I forgot about that. This is the second question that Jay hasn't answered (270 was the first) and again I'm not finding any issues with your point here, but this also raises concerns about Jay.

@Jay:

why the fuck haven't you been answering my questions? |

Why haven't you been pursuing them? Obviously Jay ins't any better for not answering but your lack of pursuing shows a lack of care.

|
370 was rhetorical in a sense. The point was to get people to reconsider their reads on jmo, if they did so why should I care how they respond, they're fixing their reads. |

Fair enough - my bias against you made me assume it wasn't supposed to be rhetorical. That's actually kinda townie.

|
378 was me poking Creature for content. If he doesn't respond it's not really my burden to drag him into the thread and beat the answers out of him. |

But why ask him for reads if you don't actually care? Whether not he is posting isn't your burden either. (Unless you are scum buddies and you are trying to encourage him to avoid falling into his scum meta).

|
434 I didn't pursue this because I realized my question was stupid, he was already pretty open about it
596 wasn't as much a sorting question as much as me being pissed someone said I was "in my own world". I'd already kinda made up my mind it looked like discrediting.
604 lmfao what a shitty way to end your wall bro. No one responded so I felt like it was clear and everyone was just not bothering to state it specifically. |

That's a low effort assumption IMO (though it's clear I can hardly criticise for making assumptions).

|
And for the little closer about how you were "skimming": yeah fuck no, no way you miss a response on post afterward with the way you started this. |

I mean, did I not say I started skim-reading specifically at the end because I felt I was becoming repetitive?

| You're fucking scum. Also I'm gonna do some historical reading cos I remember this same exact push being done on me before and idr which alignment it was. But until then bye bye. |

Well if this kind of push has happened to you before then maybe the issue lies within your playstyle?

|
VOTE: mutantdevle
I was having doubts about him but this made me not care about those doubts

Obviously, my wall was overkill. But that's just how I tunnel (and kinda the point of doing so). My main point within all these points is that you don't fully care about responses to your questions which would suggest the answers don't matter to you too much because you don't need to sort people. Sure, you do pursue a few points here and there and sometimes your questions get answered so you don't need to but there are many examples where you have a lack of follow through and that's scummy.

[mutantdevle]

Math are you saying that you don't scum read it anymore because you used to do it, still do it, or have you just generally noticed that it's not a good scum tell?

If you still don't follow up on some questions, then I haven't noticed it. Probably because you don't seem so disinterested about your questions like Gamma does.

[mutantdevle]

Can we realize that Pin said "for now," which is actually quite scummy?

I think he meant "for now" as in all he is doing 'for now' is claiming VT. I doubt he's going to come back and claim something else

Also, I'd be more comfortable lynching Anen after Pintu's flip.

[mutantdevle]

Can we all agree to hypothetically vig pintu tonight?

I know that if I'm a vig, I'm doing it.

I sign. I'd prefer him lynched though since that guarantees he dies.

[mutantdevle]

First off what the fuck? You are aware you're tunneled but you don't care to fix that? That feels like you're just saying you're tunneled to look towny. Major league ew. |

You were phrasing tunnelling as though it was a bad thing so I looked it up on the wiki and I realise I've been using the term wrong. By tunnelling, I simply mean a hard push that you kinda go all out to do. I don't mean to apply any arrogance or confirmation bias behind my case on you.

|
1) Well I wasn't really conscious of the response until then |

And my point is that this shows a lack of care or purpose within your question as you had no intention to sort with it.

|
2) Well I believe I got the answers anyway so why should I have? |

Well if you feel like you have the answers you wanted then there would be no need, but you said you didn't see his response and math never pointed you to it. So I don't see how you could have been satisfied with an answer?

|
3) what is because I don't care? And just because it wasn't explicitly stated doesn't make it not true. |

"I don't really think it's necessary to tie off loose questions." - because you don't care about the responses to the questions in the first place. Hence it's pointless you asking them and you're only doing so to look busy. As for Jmo, if he didn't actually say it, how do you know it is true?

|
5) no thoughts? |

Well if it wasn't actually a question then obviously my point about you not pursuing an answer to it doesn't stand...

|
6) But it's still a response, so meh
7) ...
9) I'm sorry but I'm not going to forgive you just because you apologize. Since you were clearly paying attention to earlier things this one comes off as very inconsistent. |

I'd argue that someone who is somehow attentive 100% of the time is more suspicious.

|
10) how about instead of ctrl-f'ing for those you read the thread? |

CTRL-f'ing saves quite a bit of time to easily find what you are looking for but yes, I should have read more of the context around each question.

|
11) Since I forgot I asked those questions. |

Why? If you truly cared about getting reads from your questions then you shouldn't just be forgetting about them.

|
12) Alright. Though again why are you so okay with having bias? |

Anyone who tries to deny they are biased in any way is just not wanting to admit it. As humans, we are naturally biased in many different things based on our own opinions and experiences. Whilst we can suppress our own bias, we cannot ignore that it exists. In this specific context, I scum read you. And because I scum read you I'm naturally going to criticise more of what you say and view the things you do as scum. Everyone in mafia does this with both town and scum reads. By admitting that bias is a factor it allows people to more easily follow my train of thought.

|
13) I wanted reads cos if he can't make reads then he very probscum. Whether he's posting isn't my burden after that poke because I'm trying to get content out of him politely. And my intent was to get him to town up if he was town. |

So you didn't care about the actual reads you just wanted to see if his activity picked up and then used that as a basis of your read on him? May I also ask what your read currently is on Creature? (I can't remember if you've said this recently).

|
15) No thoughts either? |

Again, if it wasn't actually a question then obviously you didn't need to pursue it.

|
16) eh okay then. And also I think I should have pushed it more cos if I did we wouldn't be in this idiotic gamestate
17) As I said, it's kinda a bad look when you miss a response one post after like you did. |

Well obviously it looks bad. It was a mistake and I admit that. We're all prone to human error which is what that was. Unless you're trying to argue that I blatantly ignored that response in an attempt to misrepresent you in a wall that was only directed at you to read when having 1 less point in that wall would barely have made a difference?

| And yeah it's a playstyle issue but that doesn't mean something can't be a common scum push. The player Twoinamillion has a meta of being pushed by scum as town for his playstyle.

[mutantdevle]

If you want me to summarise my case on Gamma then I can if you want me to but I feel like pushing Gamma again now would distract from the situation at hand. I'm happy with the 2 lynch options with have at the moment.

You can read our discussion if you want to but you don't have to. My points against Gamma are woven throughout the things I am saying but I'm mostly just replying to his questions (often with more questions).

[mutantdevle]

If you want me to summarise my case on Gamma then I can if you want me to but I feel like pushing Gamma again now would distract from the situation at hand. I'm happy with the 2 lynch options with have at the moment.

You can read our discussion if you want to but you don't have to. My points against Gamma are woven throughout the things I am saying but I'm mostly just replying to his questions (often with more questions).

I'm not interested in a case on Gamma. I just want wanted to tell you not to wall-quote, but I obviously failed to convey my idea properly.

That was mainly a response to Math but I'm lazy when it comes to pedits.

[mutantdevle]

Spoiler: Better?

First off what the fuck? You are aware you're tunneled but you don't care to fix that? That feels like you're just saying you're tunneled to look towny. Major league ew.
1) Well I wasn't really conscious of the response until then
2) Well I believe I got the answers anyway so why should I have?
3) what is because I don't care? And just because it wasn't explicitly stated doesn't make it not true.
5) no thoughts?
6) But it's still a response, so meh
7) ...
9) I'm sorry but I'm not going to forgive you just because you apologize. Since you were clearly paying attention to earlier things this one comes off as very inconsistent.
10) how about instead of ctrl-f'ing for those you read the thread?
11) Since I forgot I asked those questions.
12) Alright. Though again why are you so okay with having bias?
13) I wanted reads cos if he can't make reads then he very probscum. Whether he's posting isn't my burden after that poke because I'm trying to get content out of him politely. And my intent was to get him to town up if he was town.
15) No thoughts either?
16) eh okay then. And also I think I should have pushed it more cos if I did we wouldn't be in this idiotic gamestate
17) As I said, it's kinda a bad look when you miss a response one post after like you did. And yeah it's a playstyle issue but that doesn't mean something can't be a common scum push. The player Twoinamillion has a meta of being pushed by scum as town for his playstyle.

0) You were phrasing tunnelling as though it was a bad thing so I looked it up on the wiki and I realise I've been using the term wrong. By tunnelling, I simply mean a hard push that you kinda go all out to do. I don't mean to apply any arrogance or confirmation bias behind my case on you.
1) And my point is that this shows a lack of care or purpose within your question as you had no intention to sort with it.
2) Well if you feel like you have the answers you wanted then there would be no need, but you said you didn't see his response and math never pointed you to it. So I don't see how you could have been satisfied with an answer?
3) "I don't really think it's necessary to tie off loose questions." - because you don't care about the responses to the questions in the first place. Hence it's pointless you asking them and you're only doing so to look busy. As for Jmo, if he didn't actually say it, how do you know it is true?
5) Well if it wasn't actually a question then obviously my point about you not pursuing an answer to it doesn't stand...
9) I'd argue that someone who is somehow attentive 100% of the time is more suspicious.
10) CTRL-f'ing saves quite a bit of time to easily find what you are looking for but yes, I should have read more of the context around each question.
11) Why? If you truly cared about getting reads from your questions then you shouldn't just be forgetting about them.
12) Anyone who tries to deny they are biased in any way is just not wanting to admit it. As humans, we are naturally biased in many different things based on our own opinions and experiences. Whilst we can suppress our own bias, we cannot ignore that it exists. In this specific context, I scum read you. And because I scum read you I'm naturally going to criticise more of what you say and view the things you do as scum. Everyone in mafia does this with both town and scum reads. By admitting that bias is a factor it allows people to more easily follow my train of thought.
13) So you didn't care about the actual reads you just wanted to see if his activity picked up and then used that as a basis of your read on him? May I also ask what your read currently is on Creature? (I can't remember if you've said this recently).
15) Again, if it wasn't actually a question then obviously you didn't need to pursue it.
17) Well obviously it looks bad. It was a mistake and I admit that. We're all prone to human error which is what that was. Unless you're trying to argue that I blatantly ignored that response in an attempt to misrepresent you in a wall that was only directed at you to read when having 1 less point in that wall would barely have made a difference?

[mutantdevle]

I don't remember who but someone said that in Stack the Deck. Town lost again.

That was the worst, aka me. That was a selfish thing tbh because I hadn't been putting any effort in that game due to unforeseen irl stuff and then when I did have time to put effort in I had been wagoned up and refused to put in effort if I was just going to be lynched.

[mutantdevle]

Wow okay, now there's a wagon on me... 4 votes.

Gamma has perfect reasons for voting for me.
Math is eh, you've been saying I've felt off all game but you've never said why.
And A50 and Jay are sheeping yet again.

Now I know what Anen feels like in there being no case.


Math, care to explain why you have now decided you want me lynched? You're the only one of the recent 3 that will probably have anything of substance to say.

[mutantdevle]

As for my scum meta, I just finished a Jester-Nightless Micro here. I was feeling confident that game as scum until the jester self-hammered and correctly identified me and my scum buddy as such :/

This is my only scum game. Admittedly, it's not very much and there's little to base my scum meta on. However, the PT could give you an insight into how I think as scum.

[mutantdevle]

Oh damn the link didn't quote

[mutantdevle]

here

[mutantdevle]

I see that there's no link to the scum PT in the thread. It's here if you need it.

I'm not sure if it is publically released though :/ I can message the mod of that game to see if they can make it public if you need?

[mutantdevle]

A50 wasn't sheeping he just got the vote in later, he asked dino to sheep him lol

Oh yeah, kek. Fair enough. I think he has also had a scum lean sitting on me throughout the game as well?

[mutantdevle]

i didn't even notice pintu voting mutant lol

Honestly, I didn't either. I was confused at first as to why A50 suddenly pounced on Pintu but his logic does make sense by his assumption IMO.

A50, why do you want me vigged just because Pintu suddenly got off my wagon once it gained traction, has it not occurred to you that he might have jumped off because he didn't want to be part of a mislynch? Of course, from your perspective, you'd probably need my flip to confirm that. So, at the very least, my flip would incriminate Pintu fully. But honestly, I don't think we need my flip to see that Pintu is scum.


Btw @Gamma, would you reevaluate your town read on Pintu if I was to flip town?

[mutantdevle]

Actually, upon re-reading I no longer find Mutant's recent posts Townie: His vote on Anen really reads as though he's trying to distance himself from a mislynch.

His reasoning for suddenly being happy with his vote when initially he wasn't seems jumbled as well, for example; pointing out that Pin hasn't particularly scumread Anen yet voted him, but that's stripping away the context that people were being encouraged to sheep - which is why Mutant himself reluctantly voted Anen in the first place.

How was my vote on Anen distancing myself from a mislynch? Gamma was definitely not getting lynched at that point. Unless you mean my uncertainty in the vote was forged so I wouldn't be criticised for playing a part in an Anen mislynch?

As for Pintu, I don't think sheeping is acceptable. Ever. Not even when encouraged to and I hate doing it myself. It gives scum a free pass in not having to say their opinion. If you can't give a genuine personal reason as to why you are on a wagon or you are purely piggybacking off of someone else's then, in my eyes, that makes you likely to be scum. If you're going to sheep something like math's plan, then at least say a few words about how you agree with such a plan and why. Don't just walk through a door without a care just because someone is holding it open for you.

[mutantdevle]

A50, why do you want me vigged just because Pintu suddenly got off my wagon once it gained traction, has it not occurred to you that he might have jumped off because he didn't want to be part of a mislynch?

I did, and that's why I wanted him lynched over you. You being the vig shot is just to be sure about your alignment, so as to be able to analyze his and your play (voting patterns) after you both flip.

Fair enough but surely then you'd want to push me to L-1 to see if I'm a PR so that a potential vig shot on me isn't blindly risky?

[mutantdevle]

This push against the mutant wagon feels sudden tbh

In what way? Sudden in that it came together quickly or sudden resistance to it?

[mutantdevle]

Wait so Pinu wasn't actually voting for me? lol.

I think this is a lesson to us all to double check things instead of taking them at face value.

[mutantdevle]

Sheeping isn't acceptable, yet you did it yourself? It's also wrong theory-wise, imo; basically 'sheeping' in this context is 'compromising' - there is no way Town can reach a lynch without this, unless there is a ridiculously obvious lynch candidate. Yeah, I guess people could say a few words about Anen while sheeping, but all you said is he's a bit scummy tonally which doesn't massively put you above the others, imo.

You even pointed out I was hesitant to join the sheeping, so please don't treat me as though I jumped on no questions asked. Besides, I have been scum leaning Anen for a while - that doesn't mean I can't be cautious when a wagon suddenly forms on him with seemingly no case.

And compromising is fine, it's just people should be making their intent clear. Otherwise, when we ask them about it later, what's to say they aren't lying to appeal to their current situation?

[mutantdevle]

To be fair Math that was a misrep of Luca there. And the way you kind of just stop talking about it when Luca mentions this kinda makes it look intentional. I would have thought you'd at least say something about thinking he said you were scum for it.

[mutantdevle]

some interesting facts:

NSG's postrate is almost exactly between her average town postrate and scum postrate

the number of questions she's asked per post far FAR exceeds both her town questionrate and scumquestionrate, although her scum questionrate is generally a little higher

basically NSG is playing severely against meta by spending almost every post asking questions rather than making statements

it's not scum indicative but i've realised that's why i can't get a lock on her

...curious...
thoughts mutant?

I'm not that familiar with NSG's meta. I've played 1 town and 1 scum game with NSG. In the scum game I protected her N1 as a doc and was mostly town reading her but by N2 I had a gut feeling she was scum which turned out to be correct. In my town game, she replaced in and I was lynched D1 so didn't get too much of a chance to interact. She felt town there though and I didn't have that gut scum feel as I did previously. Math's statement here is either proof that he doesn't know NSG as well as he claims to or that NSG is trying something new this game. I don't have that gut scum feel this game.

[mutantdevle]

Lol gamma I was typing as you said that

[mutantdevle]

Sheeping isn't acceptable, yet you did it yourself? It's also wrong theory-wise, imo; basically 'sheeping' in this context is 'compromising' - there is no way Town can reach a lynch without this, unless there is a ridiculously obvious lynch candidate. Yeah, I guess people could say a few words about Anen while sheeping, but all you said is he's a bit scummy tonally which doesn't massively put you above the others, imo.

You even pointed out I was hesitant to join the sheeping, so please don't treat me as though I jumped on no questions asked. Besides, I have been scum leaning Anen for a while - that doesn't mean I can't be cautious when a wagon suddenly forms on him with seemingly no case.

Err, but Pin didn't jump on

'no questions asked

' either?

You can't call him scummy for sheeping when you did the same thing yourself.

I don't think he's scummy for necessarily sheeping. I think he's scummy for the reasons he voted in general. The only reason he didn't switch no questions asked was because he was concerned about what a scum flip would mean for people's reads (or rather Math's specific read) on Jay. I find this odd because I don't understand why he'd be so concerned by how the lynch would affect Jay when Jay was a null read to him and he seemed to be confident that Anen would flip scum despite null reading him. My point is that Pintu's vote felt like a last minute scum bus that was trying to avoid looking like exactly that by trying to seem as sheepless as possible through pretending to be concerned about Jay - hence why I became happy with my vote. Though I still consider the possibility that Pintu genuinely was concerned about Jay despite them being a null read.

[mutantdevle]

I don't intentionally misrep people, lol. I say whatever seems to make sense FMPOV. Sometimes that means dramatising things.

The thing is, half the game dislikes it when I take the initiative in dropping the me vs Luca debates, and half dislikes it when I continue them. Had I kept going, I'd have gotten screamed at not only by Luca (who is obviously going to disagree with whatever I have to say), but also pintu and Anen, who were blaming me for the chaotic/toxic gamestate.

Now flash forward pages later and you're suspicious of the fact that I dropped it.

I'M ALWAYS THE ONE THAT DROPS IT. That does not mean a concession, that means "this really doesn't benefit me or anyone except scum to continue this debate".

I'm not criticising that you dropped it. But unlike the rest of the times you've dropped it, you didn't mention you were dropping it this time; you just did. That's what makes the misrep look intentional. It gave the impression that you just had nothing to say at all and hence admitting defeat in Luca's point.

[mutantdevle]

I'm not so sure I'm liking this flash NSG wagon. (I also find it odd how there have been several flash wagons that don't seem to go anywhere but I guess that's a point for another time). I'm willing to vote for her as a compromise though because obviously, time isn't doing us any favours right now.

She's been posting everywhere EXCEPT this thread.

I take issue with this because I am currently in 3 games with NSG right now and this game is probably where she is posting the most.

[mutantdevle]

Yeah I'm more comfortable with this one. Several things have pinged me about him. The lack of contribution mainly as this majorly contradicts the meta I know of A50 but I also found it odd how he posted a full reads list earlier despite him emphasising in my other games with him that he doesn't want to be too transparent with his reads because they make him predictable to scum.

VOTE: Almost50

[mutantdevle]

Okay, so one thing I've learnt in mafia is not to let the dead stay silent. Killing someone because of their reads is a common reason so I always like the read into this possibility.

Here's what I consider to be Creature's reads:

Spoiler: Creature's reads (most recent to least recent)

mutantdevle(3): Aneninen, Gamma, Jay

Looks like a scum counterwagon.

I think mutant is town, but whatever.

I prefer pintu lynch over Anen.

Uh sure, Jay can die.

Let's get spicy:

VOTE: jmo16mla

Checking VC 1.06 and VC 1.07, Pinturicchio is the only I don't townread that was on Gamma.

anyway do you not feel the same way about gamma?

I guess I'm townreading Gamma most because of his activity rn.

so why are A50 and creature both wrong about aneninen?

tbh Aneninen is someone I consider hard-to-read because I could be underestimating him too much.

lean scum

JayDragonKing

(too much fluff, too little content)
Almost50 (too little content but that doesn't match the town-meta I know.)
Gamma (little content but see what I brought up)
Jmo16Mla (see my posts, nothing big but plenty of concerning bits.)

scum

Northsidegal

(explained above.)

If Anen is bus-happy, then most likely the bolded.

Still would rather not lynch Gamma, atleast not today.

VOTE: Aneninen

Still you're gonna have to help me find scum between Jay and Luca.

I am basically left with Almost50, Jaydragon, Luca Blight and Mathdino. These are the four hardest reads.

Though, out of these, I'm more fine townreading Almost50.

I'm decently confident you're town, Gamma is town, jmo16mla is town.

TheGoldenParadox and Pinturicchio I townlean on but still need to do more.

I think Aneninen could very well be the second scum.

NSG is likely scum, but likely getting bussed so no one holds a credibility for pushing her anyway.

Cool! Aneninen's reads are scummy.

We lynch NSG, I don't get vigged and then I see what we can do tomorrow.

TGP was my most meh read.

Deep scum in MD, Jay and Luca.

Maybe scum in Anen and A50.

Scum in NSG.

Rest are town or I didn't notice were playing.

Creature, how do you feel with Emperor Dino basically saying he's putting you and North in gladatorial combat to see who'll get Lynched?

I don't oppose an NSG lynch, but I'm not gladiating NSG lol.

What are the odds, in your opinion, of you beating the current title holder Northsidegal? Do you think you can be the next Champion?

What title?

pinturicchio feels fake.

Sure let's try this:

VOTE: northsidegal

These reads can be condensed into the following (again from most recent to least recent):

Town reads me (and that my wagon was a counter to a scum wagon).
Scum read pintu.
Is okay with Jay being vigged (and lynched?).
Town reads jmo, math & TGP.
Town reads Gamma.
Finds Anen hard to read.
Thinks Jay and NSG could be scum partners with Anen if he is scum.
Thinks there is scum between Jay and Luca.
Thinks Anen could be the second scum.
Scum reads NSG.

So based on that, I'd say Creature's reads were {Pintu, Anen & NSG/Jay). I'm comfortable with that as a lynch pool.


Obviously we don't know if his reads were the reason he was killed, he was fairly widely town read after all. Furthermore, there is also the WIFOM that scum killed him because his reads are terrible despite being known as a player with strong reads to lead us astray. But personally, I'm using this as a point against Anen.

Pedit: I think Creature would approve Jay being today's lynch.

[mutantdevle]

btw i'm also willing to bet that jay is our mafia rolecop

he's actively PR hunting and also taunted us with the A50 "scumflip"

classic jay thing to do as scum, breadcrumbing his actual scum role

Just pointing out, we don't actually have to hunt the rolecop necessarily. Once we kill either of the last 2 scum they practically lose the role (unless they are so stupid they'd rather role check someone instead of killing). But, in Jay's case, I guess this works as an argument they are scum.

[mutantdevle]

then let's do it

gamma's vote is on loan to me, luca agrees, paradox owes me a vote

that's L-1 by my count let's go

I theoretically hammer. Creature and PoE say so.

[mutantdevle]

Anyway don't forget A50 who's had tons of experience with NSG and Jay

Patience my dear, I can only be a medium to one player at a time OR reply in real time. I can't multi-medium yet

[mutantdevle]

Tbh you don't have to go far to see A50's reads.

Spoiler: These 4 posts sum up all you need.

A50 do me a favour and never self-hammer again.

1- I legit wanted to get out of this shot hole ASAP
2- If I didn't self-hammer I would not have had the chance to rub it in the Scum faces. Even if my wagon would have somehow dissipate, those fools would not have lynched Scum still. Most of them are full of it and are poor excuses for the whole Superfamily of Hominoidea (that's the Apes), let alone thinking humans. These are just baboon typists for all I know. Or chimpanzees, maybe.

P-edit: NO! mutant it is, If he wasn't skimming he would have saw the crumb as well, but he's not interested in sorting me or anyone else because he already knows.

@Vig: PLEASE. For the love of God.. SHOOT JAY

I'll even stretch my neck further to state Jay IS the Mafia Role Cop. (I'd bet on that too if it wasn't against the rules)

OK. So Dino wanted a readlist? Here are my final reads:

1. Mathdino (Town)
2. JaydragonKing (Scum)
3. Almost50 (Town, of course)
4. Luca Blight (Shitty Town)
5. northsidegal (Scum)
6. Creature (How is this still in the game?)
7. Pinturicchio (Shitty Town)
8. Aneninen (Town)
9. Gamma Emerald (Town)
10. TheGoldenParadox (80% Shitty Town, 20% Scum)
11. jmo16mla (Town_
12. mutantdevle (80% Scum, 20% Shitty Town)

REALLY wants me dead.
REALLY wants Jay vigged.
Town: Luca, Pintu (lol), Anen, Gamma & TGP.
Scum: Jay, NSG, me.
And I'm not sure what he means about Creature there.


If you trust A50's read of Jay and NSG due to his experience with him then I guess that condemns Jay and puts further suspicion on NSG. I've also noticed a pattern that both Creature and A50 wouldn't mind seeing Jay and NSG die.

[mutantdevle]

Math, are we running up Jay with full intent to lynch or is it mostly for the claim? If it's just the claim then obviously the vig will be the one to decide whether or not Jay is legit.

[mutantdevle]

Glad your still actually reading what I'm writing. Good catch. It was Mutant on the wagon with us and not you. Great job.

This sounds a little sarcastic in the tone that I am reading it. To clarify, was saying Math was on the A50 wagon instead of myself intentional or nah?

[mutantdevle]

Just pointing out, we don't actually have to hunt the rolecop necessarily. Once we kill either of the last 2 scum they practically lose the role

(unless they are so stupid they'd rather role check someone instead of killing)

. But, in Jay's case, I guess this works as an argument they are scum.

is it silly to take it as a scum point against mutant that he knows this so readily? i went to go check the rules when i read this, and it only actually shows up in the words of the scum role pms in the spoiler in the first post.

this is kind of a point that i could see being made against me though that i would just roll my eyes at.

I'm under the impression that it's standard for scum not to be able to use an ability AND the factional kill at once?

[mutantdevle]

While I definitely would not want to run up mutant today, I would be a strong advocate for vigging him tonight unless anyone seriously objects.

I seriously object

Honestly though, I'd prefer to be lynched than vigged. Mainly because you could analyse my wagon for scum tells and I usually like to get final words out when I know I'm fucked.

[mutantdevle]

@mutant It's not completely standard, it's actually a point of debate.

Well, my life has been a lie.


Y'know, even if we don't win this game then at least I've learnt a few things :3


Btw, intent to put Jay to L-1 when I've finished making this string of posts. My string of posts will likely conclude with a reads list, so if Jay is put to L-1 during that time, then consider this an intent to hammer.

[mutantdevle]

Why not use the vig to shoot people who WERE okay with vig shooting pintu, and acknowledge that since the vig isn't gonna just shoot themselves, there's less danger of hitting a power role?

That would mean shooting in {NSG, mutant}, with the acknowledgement that if one of them actually is the vig, they should obviously just act like they're VT potentially getting shot.

You mean the people who BOTH agreed to theoretically shoot Pintu yet kept voting for them right? Because you and TGP (not counting people who are dead) are also a part of the "people who WERE okay with vig shooting pintu" group. However, only myself and NSG kept our vote on despite agreeing to the theoretical shot.

Also, surely such action only lets slip we are not the vig? We could still be any of the other 2 PRs (obviously I'm not going to say either way for myself and I can't speak for NSG).

Shooting either myself or NSG does reduce the chance of hitting a PR though. So, in that aspect, we probably are the best vig targets. But naturally, I'm not too much of a fan of only having a 50% chance of surviving the night and I'm certainly not going to 1v1 NSG over it.

[mutantdevle]

I can quote it if needed but honestly just ctrl-f jail in my ISO and you should find it.

I CTRL-F'ed your ISO and couldn't find it

I do believe you though (I think we've gathered by now that I'm not so good at CTRL-F'ing you).

[mutantdevle]

Due to Pintu's death, I think it's obvious that the vig likes to listen to the rest of us, so I suppose that means I'm getting vigged tonight. So my reads list is going to be more detailed than normal. (Pedit: maybe not? I still think there's a chance I'm getting vigged and there's no point in me removing the detail from my reads list kek).

Town:

MathDino

-0

Math is obviously town. I've said that from the start.
TheGoldenParadox

^1

I also think TGP is town. He's done literally nothing scummy all game. I never agreed on his early pushes against Math, but his motivation seems town and that's good enough for me. Pedit: @math, do you consider yourself to have any bias against Gamma due to him accusing you so much day 1. Honestly, Gamma doesn't strike me as ballsy scum that would try to get you lynched day 1. Pedit2: nvm you backed down on that lol.

Town Lean:

northsidegal

^1

The lack of content here and Creature's read on her did make me cautious at the start of the day. But honestly, she has just seemed really townie today. Furthermore, is there really like anyone we could possibly say is scum with NSG? Jay definitely doesn't fit that criteria.
Gamma Emerald

^3

This may be very surprising considering my earlier push on Gamma but I honestly feel like bias probably did get in the way a bit there. I was easing off on Gamma at the end of yesterday because I really couldn't see who Gamma would be scum with except Math. And math is definitely not on the scum team. Since then, I've looked at Gamma with more of an open eye and his game solving game is strong.


Everything below here would be my lynch pool for tomorrow if I was to be alive for it so please don't forget my opinion here. Some of my reads had been bumped up town wise through PoE but these are definitely the scummiest 3 (or 4 if you still consider Jay to be alive):

Null:

jmo16mla

-0

Has done basically nothing since early day 1. As mentioned numerous times though, this could just be town struggling to keep up. But I have no reason to town read jmo so PoE puts him here.
Luca Blight

-0

I'm still not sure how much my bias against his tone makes me put him here, but nothing sticks out as town from Luca. I feel like he might be scum that's doing his best to blend in.

Scum Lean:

Aneninen

-0

This guy is scummy. I do believe his reaction to his wagon was fairly fake (with maybe some genuine frustration) but I have no idea what made him think he'd be vigged overnight. I feel like that's just an excuse for not catching up during the night. My bets are on him being Jay's partner.

Scum:

JaydragonKing

v1

I'm ready to vote for this scumlord anytime you need me to.


So that's my read list / lynch pool for if I'm dead by tomorrow. I started writing this when there was prominent support to vig me but that's obviously subsided a bit since then. I don't know if I'll still be alive tomorrow, but please don't just forget about my reads if I'm not. They're not always accurate, but they'd help with associations. We're just waiting for Luca and Anen to chip in before we lynch Jay right?

My opinion on the vig / JK:

HURT: Anen
HEAL: Luca

Since they are the 2 I am most confident on after Jay.

[mutantdevle]

jmo is the best jail, honestly. vig mutant.

I've got a better idea to not kill me (; buy honestly, if killing me would give you guys that many reads, I'm almost okay with it. But I don't think it's justifiable. I get progressively better as games go on. More on this later.

So. Jay is known for fake claiming as any faction.

We lynch him. He turns out VT, we all agree to vig someone. Before hand if this happens. We also have to find someone to jailkeep. We have to think though. We cannot vig and jail keep the same person. So we vig the most scummy person, then jailkrep the second most scummy person? That way we can clear someone that night.

The jail keeper must state who they are jail keeping also, if Jay is indeed scum, we will have one remaining scum. The JK must claim who they will protect. The JK comes up dead the next day, that person they protected are conf town.

If Jay isn't scum then Gamma has every right to choose whoever he wants to protect. He'll no longer be able to incriminate scum if there's 2 of them left.

[mutantdevle]

So.

Jay is known for fake claiming as any faction.

We lynch him. He turns out VT

, we all agree to vig someone. Before hand if this happens. We also have to find someone to jailkeep. We have to think though. We cannot vig and jail keep the same person.

So we vig the most scummy person, then jailkrep the second most scummy person?

That way we can clear someone that night.

We only decide for the "if Jay is scum" part. Guess I didn't make that clear.

But I thought the whole point of your post was what to do if Jay flips town?

Also, mfw when literally all of us forget about Jay's slip at the start there.

[mutantdevle]

We're just waiting for Luca and Anen to chip in before we lynch Jay right?

[mutantdevle]

My vote was going to put Anen at L-2 which I was fine with but then I saw Pintu's vote and saw my vote would put him to L-1 which I was hesitant to do because of a potential hammer - but I decided to vote anyway since any premature hammers would basically be a scum claim. I then looked into Pintu's reason for voting and it just wasn't adding up to me. It felt scummy and I don't think Pintu has ever mentioned a desire to vote Anen and I don't think he's ever scum read him (I might be wrong on that though). At first, it felt like a reason to justify not voting for Anen which made me think Pintu was scum and hence I was further uncomfortable with my vote because scum on a wagon usually means a mislynch. But the more I thought about it the more it felt like a last minute attempt to get on the wagon to bus a declared doomed scum buddy.

I'm not really up for a Pintu wagon since my main basis for now suddenly being suspicious of him is that he's potential buddies with Anen. If Anen were to flip town, I could still consider this vote be due to Pintu's inexperience - An inexperience I can relate to because I remember wanting to be on every lynch that goes through regardless of my read as I thought it was the townie thing to do which I only started dropping on my first game on this site.

let me get this straight – you think pintu's vote was bad and it made you hesitate on keeping your vote there, but then you figured that it was a bus, so you felt good about it still flipping scum. your second paragraph doesn't follow with this. if pintu's vote was scummy initially but not scummy because you figure it's a bus, 1) that still makes pintu scum and 2) why do you just write it off as inexperience at the end instead of in the first place?

like, a scummy vote still makes someone scum even if you think it's scum budding their buddy.

oh yeah, this was why i was scumreading mutant.

That's the result of being very tired but kept awake by caffeine and jumping to the wrong conclusion. I later corrected myself to scum reading Pintu fully with Anen as a suspect if Pintu flipped scum. Obviously, Pintu did flip scum so Anen is my suspect.

Strangely enough, I am also very tired and only being kept awake by caffeine at the moment. Thankfully though I'm more relaxed right now as I'm not under any pressure so hopefully I won't be making any more mistakes in my logic anytime soon :3

[mutantdevle]

Then tell us who you want jailkept and vigged then.

[mutantdevle]

So are we ready to end the day?

[mutantdevle]

VOTE: JaydragonKing

[mutantdevle]

Guys, relax, is just a game and I get it, I'm not going anywhere. I'm having fun nevertheless; if I weren't, I would've replaced out long ago, after my first readlist. But let's keep things going: I may be dead, but I haven't lost the game as this is a team game, so go on and push another wagon. Just to be clear: I don't think this "push a wagon till getting a claim" is the best strategy at all. Also, I'm following my own reads right now and put my vote on A50, as I'm really tired of his vig softclaims that could justify his lack of content and voting for anyone who's getting pushed without explaining himself. Maybe it's a playstyle thing, but whatever.
VOTE: Almost50

Pin steering the attention away from the Mutant wagon looks pretty bad on Mutant, particularly given Pin and Mutant were 'scumreading' each other; why would scum-pin want to interrupt another townie getting to L-1 and claiming?

To successfully lynch a player that he considers a far bigger threat presumably.

[mutantdevle]

NSG made a terrible shot

It's mutant/Paradox, and

gammas jail tonight will give us the 1 mislynch to solve it

(referring to the bold).

Umm no, that's not how it works. If we lynch wrong today then we've as good as lost IMO. If today's lynch ends up as town then Gamma will have 3 players to potentially jail. Even though it's a 2/3 chance of jailing scum, only one of them is going to be performing the kill. A town flip means Gamma's jail will decide the game with only a 1/3 chance of winning. We shouldn't be so careless about this lynch.

I'm also not comfortable having the lynch be between myself and Paradox. Anen should be included in the pool as well. I think you and TGP are both town but TGP less so; by PoE that must mean TGP is scum but I am far more confident in Anen and that's who I want lynched today.

[mutantdevle]

I should basically be conf town once mutant flips scum

And when I don't flip scum it means the game is over.

[mutantdevle]

2. mutant is likely scum, AND mutant is scum who took the shot knowing you would jail elsewhere.

Umm, why does shooting a potential vig instead of a confirmed jailkeeper make specifically me scum exactly?

[mutantdevle]

Yeah I think it's Mutant/Paradox. I'll give everyone a chance to post before I vote.

I really don't see why we're excluded Anen here? Is it literally just because of that 1 line from Pintu?

[mutantdevle]

If we lynch wrong today, that gives Gamma a 50/50 shot at jailing the scum that does the kill. I think we can rule out more than enough scumteams to argue that it's basically gonna be 50/50.

You understand a scumflip would mean the game is basically over for scum?

Why would you be unwilling to lynch Paradox then if you don't think Math/Anen is the scumteam?

I'm assuming the 50/50 you are referring to is that you wouldn't consider yourself in that?

I do agree to some extent that a scum flip today would spell game over for scum in most cases. However, there's still the possibility that scum could A) slime their way out of it to win or B) you are also scum.

I'm not unwilling to lynch Paradox, that is a blatant misrep. I literally just said I'd prefer to lynch Anen because that's who I'm most confident in. I'm not totally unwilling to lynch you either - though I can never be sure if that's MyLo paranoia kicking in.

[mutantdevle]

2. mutant is likely scum, AND mutant is scum who took the shot knowing you would jail elsewhere.

Umm, why does shooting a potential vig instead of a confirmed jailkeeper make specifically me scum exactly?

I'm saying that since we lined you up to be vigged, Gamma was definitely not jailing you, so you-scum would be free to perform the nightkill.

Shooting a potential vig instead of a confirmed jailkeeper actually makes Paradox scum, because he has no idea how to play mechanically optimally.

I see your logic with your first point because I agree that that would make perfect sense if I was scum - I fail to see how that is evidence I am scum though.

You're second point is evidence that TGP is scum though, not me. Paradox would still kill NSG regardless of my alignment. What you have here is a case on TGP, not me.

Pedit: which I see you have rectified with your vote.

Pedit2: Okay, I'll take up your offer on sheeping you on Paradox. I guess I kinda owe it to you after ignoring what you said about A50. But if you're wrong about this then you have no right to ever tell me to sheep you again on my town reads in any future games.

VOTE: TheGoldenParadox

[mutantdevle]

I'm unvoting if I see a naked vote though because that usually means that there's a quick hammer inbound.

[mutantdevle]

Oh yeah

[mutantdevle]

@Gamma&Luca Only vote if you're absolutely certain. In the world where Anen and Math are scum, either of you voting will cause Anen to hammer and we'd lose.

[mutantdevle]

You said earlier during the game that he likes to bus as scum. I'm assuming that means he's good at it?

I just think it's best to be cautious regardless; like I am cautious of you right now. I don't seriously think you are scum, but the only possibilities right now are that either you're right or you're scum. That's scary to think about. I'm nowhere near qualified to make an accurate distinction between those 2 so either Gamma or Luca HAS to be confident in making that distinction themselves.

[mutantdevle]

I said he was WILLING to bus. Which Anen quickly clarified by noting that he was literally not the one bussing in the game I linked.

Oh, RIP. That reassures me a bit that you and Anen aren't buddies - not that that means much for the game state though.

[mutantdevle]

Damn math, why you gotta be so flip-floppy? :/

TGP, if you were town, you'd be voting Anen. From your town POV the scum team is either me and Anen or math and Anen. The common factor there being Anen. Just like from my POV the scum team could only be you and Anen or math and Anen. So if you were town then that's who you'd be voting for.

If you'd also like to take a look back at your reads, you'd find you've never really scum read me but you have scum read Anen. So why, when you consider us both to be the last 2 scum, do you opt for the player your least confident with according to your own reads?

Clearly, out of myself and Anen, I am the most mislynchable. So, if you are scum with math (I don't actually consider this possible) you'd be using the fact that there is more support for me to choose to support lynching me over Anen. However, if Anen is your scum partner, you're not going to want to bus him so much anymore when it's a matter of winning or losing the game. Regardless, you are scum motivated.

So basically, thanks for the scum claim. You've fully reassured my vote on you.

[mutantdevle]

From my POV it's either you and Anen or you and math.

Your previous reads say otherwise.

- You've scum read math a lot
- You've scum read Anen a bit
- You've not scum read me at all.

Why has that suddenly flipped upside down?

[mutantdevle]

I'm currently thinking:

vig Anen, leave Pin alive, lynch either Mutant or jmo.

What if we lynch dino, then if he's town, vig anen, if he's scum, vig mutant or jmo.

Hey mutant what do you think of this post right here?

Fuck, man, I could literally lynch either of you. These Aneninen scumteams are ludicrous.

To me, this is him saying to vig Anen.

If he was your scum buddy, it would be a call to get me or jmo killed. However, I don't see a world here where you'd ever flip scum.

So hence what he really means here is vig Anen - which from my PoV is him bussing but I'm guessing from your PoV you see this as evidence that Anen and TGP are not scum buddies.

[mutantdevle]

Well thank

fuck

Gamma for that.

At least we're lynching scum today.

[mutantdevle]

PoE confirms each other’s alignments for those of us who aren’t PRs but obviously that’s settled by the jail tomorrow and we lynch whoever was jailed today.

[mutantdevle]

Lol that ghost.

VOTE: Aneninen[/v]

Also Gamma das rude. But understandable considering you’re probably more confident in me being scum than Math. At least my innocence will finally be proven to y’all and we win tomorrow.

[mutantdevle]

VOTE: Aneninen

Damn phone posting.

[mutantdevle]

Lol Luca we already won. Gamma could only have blocked myself or Math last night. If the kill was blocked, the target was scum, if the kill went through, the target is town. Surprisingly, Gamma blocked Math (hence the lack of a kill). All you need to do now is wait for Gamma to confirm that and you can join the wagon for the win

VOTE: math

GG math, you played well. I'm certainly not going to be able to trust my read on you in the future :3

[mutantdevle]

Oh shit I forgot about no kills.

Well, there goes that whole plan we came up with 2 days ago :/

[mutantdevle]

Wait, so scum can't actually win here, right?

2 confirmed town vs 1 non confirmed town and 1 scum.

Lynch between the 2 non-confirmed town either wins the game or ends the night with 2 confirmed town and 1 scum.

1 scum gets blocked so can't kill which means they are just lynched the next day.


So, is there any reason this game is still going since it's literally impossible for scum to win? Surely shouldn't they just be end gamed?

[mutantdevle]

Well, now my posts during this day are just embarrassing :3

Yeah, I concede. This was a fun game though and I learnt quite a bit. We came so close to winning only to be out WIFOMed by Gamma so GG on that.

I sent a message to the mod asking to concede but let's just hammer me anyway.

VOTE: mutantdevle

Pedit: They agreed. But I may as well start this game the way I started it - with a vote on myself <3

[mutantdevle]

Yeah, I had chosen to no-kill too to frame math if you decided to do that :3 Not that it mattered as Luca made me realise today that it was impossible for me to win anyway.

[mutantdevle]

Their role was:

Mafia Rolecop

Excuse me, but when did I change role?

[mutantdevle]

I'm a role cop, who checked NSG N1. I think my biggest regret this game was checking NSG instead of killing her which I was more comfortable with. If we had done that then I wouldn't have so many damn confirmed townies fucking me over

[mutantdevle]

IDK what are you guys even talking about

This:

[mutantdevle]

I enjoyed my scum partners though. I don't think many of you suspect an Anen/mutant scum team until PoE started to kick in and the way y'all were underestimating Pintu was beautiful :3 It's a shame he was vig fodder.

[mutantdevle]

Never once did they think me saying I'd jail Anen was actually a crumb.

Where did you say this?

We forgot to look at your posts at that point tbh :/ Whoops.

[mutantdevle]

pffft that was WAAAAY at the start of the thread :3 There was no way I'd ever have interpreted that as a crumb for your actions so much later in the thread.

[mutantdevle]

other than mutant's scumslip

What is it that you are considering to be my scum slip?

[mutantdevle]

Yeah, strongly town reading you at the start was a mistake on my part. I wasn't trying to pocket you, but I do feel like I'd have town read you had I been town this game.

As for that slip, I feel fairly certain that I'd have thought along the same lines as town since I was genuinely under the impression it was pretty standard on this site for factional kills and role abilities to not be able to be performed at once. I'm not entirely sure if I would have said it though, but I'd definitely have had the same line of thinking.

[mutantdevle]

Tbh A50 self-voting was the highlight of this game for me. I was so sure we were going to lose 1 of us day 1 yet somehow we just quick lynched one of the strongest players here instead. I mean, losing someone N1 is hardly any better than a D1 lynch but at least we got rid of A50 without running the risk of his reads suddenly becoming law.

[mutantdevle]

If we hadn't have checked NSG N1 then I do feel like we'd have figured it out anyway. We wouldn't have shot her though since it's obviously not guaranteed in that scenario.

[mutantdevle]

For the record, I never thought you were a PR. I wanted you dead for your accurate reads :3