Mini Normal 2173 | Bending | Game Over

[Andresvmb]

also yall are so slow to confirm i literally have been waiting like forever for this game to start also hi andres i missed u

Hey Koba. I’ve missed you too. When I saw that you had signed up for this game I got excited. Do not disappoint me by being aligned with the Scum now.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: andresvmb

making sure you'll lose to me thrice

Are you admitting to being Scum now Shelly?

[Andresvmb]

Shellyc is town.

There is no way you can say this with any confidence at this stage.

[Andresvmb]

Im off of work and im free tonight since i dont work tomorrow morning so ill be watching thread

Where's Anders amirite!?

Hey Baltar. You proved very tough to crack last time. I am hoping we can actually slay Scum together this time, and not have to go at each other. It was exhausting.

[Andresvmb]

also yall are so slow to confirm i literally have been waiting like forever for this game to start also hi andres i missed u

Hey Koba. I’ve missed you too. When I saw that you had signed up for this game I got excited. Do not disappoint me by being aligned with the Scum now.

nah im def town again. Hopefully you are too o.o

Alright we’re now an impenetrable alliance. Everybody watch out.

[Andresvmb]

I will admit, I actually really liked Avatar (the TV show), so the flavor seems kind of cool. I was not the intended target audience (too old), but you gotta appreciate a good show when you see one.

[Andresvmb]

I’m ignoring all of the claims, since they seem completely made up.

I will say this - from experience, concluding that shellyc is Town this early is a red flag to me. @DrippingGoofball have you played with Shelly before?

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: shelleyc

VOTE: NDMath

<insert hilarious quip here about the moral and grammatical superiority of British English 'maths' to the Americanism of 'math'>

<'Englishes'. Math is sometimes considered a language, and one doesn't pluralize languages.>

Hello all. I can do maths. 2+1+7+3=13

Is this a soft?

Probably. 7*7-7=42

Hello all. I can do maths. 2+1+7+3=13

I would eliminate this slot if all I had was the information we have right now.

[Andresvmb]

Sorry, didn’t mean to quote NDMath there. I was referring to geraintm.

[Andresvmb]

Why vote jackson but say you're getting serious scumvibes from shelly?

because theres more than 1 scum in the game ? Lol

I’d be really interested to hear you reasons, it seemed like you had a strong opinion on shelly’s posts.

Scum are also slightly less likely to notice joking I think

I’m going to give you my first impression to your approach this game, and you tell me what you think. You’re beginning to strike me as someone who is somewhat bent on driving public opinion against DkKoba. From implying that Koba is Scum because they can’t recognize a joke, to questioning their vote while pushing someone else, you are giving me the vibe that based on Koba’s activity this early in D1, that you are somewhat set in Koba as Scum. Is that correct?

[Andresvmb]

I’m ignoring all of the claims, since they seem completely made up.

I will say this - from experience, concluding that shellyc is Town this early is a red flag to me. @DrippingGoofball have you played with Shelly before?

1 shot loyal neighborizer here

If you don’t use this on me, I’ll be offended.

[Andresvmb]

andres its ok i have resigned myself to the fact that my playstyle naturally just makes at least One person shitpush me in a game unless im mechanically cleared LOL


fr tho im gonna park my vote here, i think i got all i am gonna get for now out of my jackson vote
VOTE: shellyc

Well I want to understand where Infinity is coming from. Only you know if it’s a shit push or not, I don’t know that yet. But I agree that your play style tends to invite unwarranted scrutiny.

[Andresvmb]

I need a vote count right around now. There’s definitely multiple votes out there and I want to see where we’re at.

[Andresvmb]

Good morning all, this ought to be a good laugh.

I am assuming the whole daycop thing is am in-joke, but if this is actually a legit thing then please tell me

For the time being...

VOTE: NDMath

<insert hilarious quip here about the moral and grammatical superiority of British English 'maths' to the Americanism of 'math'>

I think this is Town btw.

[Andresvmb]

105 - @geraintm can you explain why you decided to write down 2+1? And for anybody that is going to accuse me of role fishing, go away.

[Andresvmb]

@DrippingGoofball have you played with Shelly before?

DkKoba is town.

Andresvmb might be scum.

Reasons?

Andres is meek, tentative, and self-conscious.

DkKoba is not.

You know, over time, I am becoming more immune to bad takes of my slot. Please point to where I have been self-conscious, or tentative for that matter.

[Andresvmb]

as a former chat mafia player i find them extremely useful for finding a "baseline" read level to start out with. id still like to see where your general vibes are so i can get a sense where your head is at.

Pretty sure this is mostly just personality/playstyle but

taylor - townish
jackson - townish
shelly - townish
DGB - scummish
gerain - scummish
baltar - scummish
mark - townish

ok hmmmmmm

hot take infinity is scummy and koba is townie
koba is *proactively* solving and poking around, infinity is *reactionary* readslisting

Okay I’m going to actually disagree with this. I think Infinity is Town. I don’t know about Koba yet. Those attempts at early reads lists are reasonably likely to come from Town in my view.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: geraintm

[Andresvmb]

Alright I’m just going to put this out there. @Koba I’m not getting Townyvibes from you. I really didn’t like your attempt at a derp clear with the Scum not having Day Talk. In fact, anybody who made a direct reference to that should be under some suspicion (I don’t really have a read on VPB but I also noticed a reference there from him). Until it was highlighted, I didn’t even check whether this was the case. Yes, I initially assumed that Scum could speak privately during the day. But the Scum are far more likely to have wanted to communicate and strategize early, only to realize that they couldn’t (as included in the rules). So anybody who realized this probably felt it would be something they could use to clear themselves by making a point out of it. Paranoid? Perhaps. But something to think about.

[Andresvmb]

I also don’t think shellyc is obvScum. So I was a little confused about the aggressiveness behind 183.

[Andresvmb]

The rule for a shellyc read should be something like - if they’re broadly suspected, Town. If broadly TR, Scum.

[Andresvmb]

I am away for 11 hours and 5 pages of worthless posts to read through on a weekend when I have limited access.
This is going to be a fun game....

I've played with a few people in this game before. If they could be bothered they could explain to the rest my limited posts so far. I'll rather let people talk themselves into a frenzy.

Can we just skip to day 2 already though?

If anybody wants to know why I’m voting where I am, all they have to do is read this post btw.

[Andresvmb]

I’ll be catching up I’ve been watching football all day.

[Andresvmb]

@Koba just because I said I wasn’t getting Towny vibes from you, does not mean that I think you’re sure Scum or something. Look I tend to be very skeptical of any appeals at an easy “Town clear”. And yeah I also don’t read all of the rules. So I get it. VPB’s point that it might be NAI is totally valid. But it’s also the attack on Shellyc (183). In any case, you know I like playing with you, so implying that I always do this to you when we’ve clearly worked well together in the past is somewhat unfair I feel.

[Andresvmb]

and ur read on shellyc doesn't make sense to me. tables are different. Like they LITERALLY are so fucking scummy and you come out with that shit.. then shade the person who started the wagon.. hm

Also I don’t actually have a solid read on shellyc either way. She just has not come across to me as blatantly Scummy. Or not Scummy to the point where I would call them obvScum.

[Andresvmb]

as a former chat mafia player i find them extremely useful for finding a "baseline" read level to start out with. id still like to see where your general vibes are so i can get a sense where your head is at.

Pretty sure this is mostly just personality/playstyle but

taylor - townish
jackson - townish
shelly - townish
DGB - scummish
gerain - scummish
baltar - scummish
mark - townish

ok hmmmmmm

hot take infinity is scummy and koba is townie
koba is *proactively* solving and poking around, infinity is *reactionary* readslisting

Okay I’m going to actually disagree with this. I think Infinity is Town. I don’t know about Koba yet. Those attempts at early reads lists are reasonably likely to come from Town in my view.

lmao hold up so... i literally outted an ealry reads list first. Are you trying to deliberately misrep me?
The more I read andres posts the less i trust him
Im removing him from my townleans for now. His insitence on preventing the shellyc wagon on the lowkey feels scummy

My disagreement was much more targeted at Shellyc and her take on Infinity. I openly said I wasn’t sure about you, which means I wasn’t as focused on that part of it. I also acknowledge that you did put out an early reads list, so that’s a positive.

[Andresvmb]

andres, what's your read on DGB at the moment?

Town Lean. That comment towards geraintm about how we’re going to put them out of their misery made me laugh.

[Andresvmb]

Im at work so cant really talk much but yhe ger wagon isnt good imo

Can you expand on this?

[Andresvmb]

I am away for 11 hours and 5 pages of worthless posts to read through on a weekend when I have limited access.
This is going to be a fun game....

I've played with a few people in this game before. If they could be bothered they could explain to the rest my limited posts so far. I'll rather let people talk themselves into a frenzy.

Can we just skip to day 2 already though?

If anybody wants to know why I’m voting where I am, all they have to do is read this post btw.

I agree with shelly actually, this wagon seems bad. This post is the only reason anyone has given for a gerain scumread, and it's pretty much NAI. (Like, early d1s can be frustrating and random, and you usually don't get scum).

UNVOTE:
VOTE: VP baltar

This is a better vote.

Yeah early D1s can be frustrating. Not going to disagree with that. But it’s the attitude that is more the problem, at least to me. If you don’t see anything that you find relevant to discern alignment, then you can just clearly state that you either don’t have any reads yet or maybe try and point to something useful or throw out a gut read. That moves the game forward.

[Andresvmb]

Koba where are you? I think there’s some chance shellyc is Scum here hahaha

[Andresvmb]

My disagreement was much more targeted at Shellyc and her take on Infinity. I openly said I wasn’t sure about you, which means I wasn’t as focused on that part of it. I also acknowledge that you did put out an early reads list, so that’s a positive.

About that, why did you think the readslist was towny when I only did it because koba asked?

Would you rather I SR you for providing a reads list, even though it was prompted? I know what you’re getting at, but what I liked about the list was that I did not find it offensive (I thought it was reasonable and could see how you arrived at some of those early reads).

[Andresvmb]

This is not a townie mindset at all

JV do you like bussing

math calling VP town is ????????

i'll vote in {VP, math} atm

VPs 237 is close to a scumslip imo and math randomly town on VP + really consensus-y play without furthering the game

Why do you think the discrediting comes from scum

Koba is too engaged and proactive to be scum at all

There’s too much confidence in these reads.

[Andresvmb]

This might sound silly, but I don’t want to eliminate geraintm just yet. Unless this is a strategy I haven’t seen before, no sane Scum under pressure just blurts out that they are not going to contribute at all until they have more information. It’s too blatant.

VOTE: shellyc

I’ll switch over here. I need to read some pages in more detail. I still haven’t been able to read every post.

[Andresvmb]

If geraintm’s contributions don’t add up for me later in the game by all means. I just don’t get the point. There’s not even an attempt at reading other players. I will also say though that playing only based on the limited information that you get from votes and flips tends not to work for me.

[Andresvmb]

I’ll catch up soon enough. Though I admit I might fall asleep doing it. I will say, there’s a lot of votes on Math all of a sudden (I skimmed) and that sort of thing tends not to catch Scum.

[Andresvmb]

Okay my ability to pick out the Scum Team early is close to 0, so take this with a grain of salt. I was re-reading as carefully as I can, and through #275, I was at like a {JacksonVirgo, NDMath, VPB} Scum Team. I think Zdenek is possibly Scum, and did not like geraintm but there just isn’t enough there to make a legitimate push. My other thought was that if NDMath flips Town, consider shellyc. I think Koba is Town (sorry for doubting you earlier, though I am always open to updating my stances), and I think Infinity screams Town. Mainly because I agree with them a lot and think they’re reasonable and solving. Anyway, I’ll keep reading, I just wanted to put that out there.

[Andresvmb]

Koba where are you? I think there’s some chance shellyc is Scum here hahaha

I won't take this as an insult I wasn't mentioned.

I'd yeet shelly or geraintm today. You got a preference?

@VPB, as I’ve been catching up, I have noticed your early intense focus on geraintm (which I somewhat shared but then I moved away because it just didn’t seem like Scum would play like that D1), which is giving me pause. I also think that this narrowing of the pool for a vote D1 that you were trying to do here does not sit all that well with me, but I was trying to figure out how I felt about the game state in general before coming at you. I think you had somewhat of an overreaction with shellyc, and I think that pushing a slot that is really not providing much content to the level that you are, make me lean Scum on you to be totally honest.

I also think there was a meek attempt at distancing possibly between JacksonVirgo and VPB that I would pay some attention to (275). And the reason I’m calling it distancing is because I do think that Koba was right - there’s something funny about how JacksonVirgo retracted that test on shellyc. The issue at that time wasn’t the fake claim itself (which in context is fine since multiple people have fake claimed DayCop, DayVig, Loyal Neighbourizer, etc.), but the quick retraction. So providing multiple examples of how people on another site never take fake claims from JV seriously just seemed overly self-conscious.

Anyway, I wanted to provide some explanations for those early thoughts I put out. Still reading.

[Andresvmb]

Also Tayl0r I have you down as Town. But I think you’re take on my reads is just weird. I can so easily be wrong. I had the game entirely backwards in the last game I played here. At least I had some of the associatives right, but literally my reads were upside down. So it’s entirely possible I have it just wrong and you’re reads are spot on. But the immediate conclusion that I can’t be opposite your reads, and therefore I’m Scum, seems kind of strange to me.

[Andresvmb]

One other interaction that I spent some time thinking about was the Marky Mark / Koba interaction where Koba brushes off some criticism from Mark by asking him not to misrep them. What I really thought was interesting was how many times Marky Mark decided to return to the point that Koba was being Scummy by not specifically pointing out where Mark was in fact misrepresenting them. In effect Mark makes the argument initially that Koba could be doing something that Mark does as Scum, which is to post a lot to obfuscate or hide the more important points (or something to that effect). I just thought it was obvious what Koba was taking issue with. So I don’t get the need to also make the additional point that it’s bad that Koba didn’t specifically signal how they disagreed. I mean, the point was put forth by Mark. If anything, they are the ones who have to prove it. And as far as I could tell, there weren’t any examples put forth. So it was something difficult for Koba to really fight against, yet Mark almost seemed to get overly offended by Koba brushing him off like that.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway sorry for the long posts. Just trying to be thorough.

[Andresvmb]

Koba where are you? I think there’s some chance shellyc is Scum here hahaha

Andres you can never read me correctly

Projecting a confident tone is strictly nai

This is absolutely true. At least initially. I think I need to be sure that I’m playing against the Town version of you first. I just don’t have a baseline. All I’ve seen you do is be Scum twice, and win both times against me.

[Andresvmb]

If geraintm’s contributions don’t add up for me later in the game by all means. I just don’t get the point. There’s not even an attempt at reading other players. I will also say though that playing only based on the limited information that you get from votes and flips tends not to work for me.

ah, classic tstbs

Andres is your vote because I'm apparently really self confident when that's strictly NAI

I am actually more positive on your slot shellyc now that I’ve read more carefully. Still somewhat unsure but more positive.

And it’s not too Scummy to be Scum. Others have already confirmed that geraintm actually approaches D1s like this consistently. So it’s NAI and we should consider looking elsewhere.

[Andresvmb]

I also think that this narrowing of the pool for a vote D1 that you were trying to do here does not sit all that well with me,

I typically try to narrow the pool D1 to keep it productive. Too broad of a focus leads to very long D1s, imo. And that is not helpful (at least to me) later in the game when I want to do lots of rereading and refresh my understanding after some flips.

Is it scummy to you beyond the idea that everyone should be on the table D1? (Which, I think if you're being honest with yourself probably isn't really true, but whatever)

My point is a little more nuanced than this. Yes, narrowing down the choices for D1 is what we’re all trying to do. It just seemed overly narrow to me. And I must say, it’s not all that different to how you played Scum when I had to face you last time (though you were maybe a bit more aggressive in that game). Not suggesting you have a narrow range as Scum btw (can’t know that, and I have respect for your game). But you will forgive me for being skeptical of your slot here, yeah?

[Andresvmb]

I'm town btw

Thanks. Thoughts on the game so far?

They're still developing

Hey @Not_Mafia. I presume you don’t have any intention of voting anyone but yourself today yeah?

[Andresvmb]

Also, for anyone who has played with not_mafia....what was your experience? Do they become useful at some point later in the game if they are town?

I have something to add here about Not_Mafia, since we’ve played together on another forum (several times). I already think they’re Town. I don’t know that you’re going to get much more from them actually, but they definitely can be useful. They tend not to be, but they won’t completely self-sabotage the Town either.

Also, I see @Not_Mafia you’ve been somewhat censored over here haha that’s a shame.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: JacksonVirgo

[Andresvmb]

They’ve posted three reads, and stated simply that they were Town. For Not_Mafia, that’s actually pretty good.

[Andresvmb]

I also think Jackson’s push against Koba (around 542) is Scummy. They tried to argue that there was a meaningful difference between Koba’s play in the game VPB quoted, and this one, while barely skimming through Koba’s ISO. Infinity immediately demonstrated that Jackson’s take was deceiving.

I’ll be honest, I can understand why Koba’s play is seen as abrasive. I mean it just is. That doesn’t justify half baked arguments against Koba.

[Andresvmb]

Jackson, I'd have to look at that game more closely, the posts in that spoiler have lots of different tones which range from lighter suspicions or thinking about who could be scum to things like "you're misrepping me" which I read as pretty direct. I saw some places in the other game where they were less confident too, though tbf maybe it wasn't in the same way.

Jackson feels towny from this

Sigh. What? You think trying to raise the temperature and not recognizing the similarities that VPB is openly saying exist between Koba’s Town game and approach here is Towny? Did I miss something?

[Andresvmb]

Oy okay I am reading Koba’s push on Tayl0r and I can’t say that I like it. I do really think Tayl0r is Town. Or at least, I think they have a good sense for the game. If they’re putting out a POE of 5 people, even if you’re in it Koba, I would pay some attention to it.

[Andresvmb]

zdenek says they don't like the look of andres and NOT scumreading andres which is rather shady

When I say "I don't like the look of" I mean "the red letters in his role pm are shining through through every word that he's writing or my gut is off"

You’re gut is way off.

[Andresvmb]

Really unclear why Taylor and andres were so eager to defend what is pretty milquetoast play so far.

I think I’ve openly suspected Math this game?

[Andresvmb]

I think Mark is way over focused on how Koba brushed him off. And I can’t say that I TR that.

@Marky Mark, can you maybe defend your original point a bit more? As in what posts from Koba specifically make you think that Koba is trying to overpost to “hide the important things”? And have you considered that another player might not approach Scum the way you do?

[Andresvmb]

I really dislike Andres early on trying to lock infinity into a scum read on Koba, and I find his progression on Koba unnatural, from not getting townvibes/dislike attempt to derp clear themself to "Koba where are you? I think there’s some chance shellyc is Scum here hahaha"

Tomorrow I will work on the others.

Did I lock Infinity into a SR? I was more trying to understand where Infinity was coming from, and trying to figure out what level of certainty there was behind the read. They said they were still making up their mind, which I respected. I don’t really care for your description of my progression on Koba, but there’s nothing for me to disagree since your reasoning is vague.

[Andresvmb]

^disagree with*

[Andresvmb]

Really unclear why Taylor and andres were so eager to defend what is pretty milquetoast play so far.

I think I’ve openly suspected Math this game?

Maybe I'm wrong. I thought you called the wagon bad.

748

[Andresvmb]

where I explained why math is scum and just binned it as "slightly town!AI" for no reason

andres why do you think a flashwagon doesn't catch scum? this is garnering multiple reactions

Maybe I should have phrased it better - pressure can definitely catch Scum. It’s just that there was no buildup to it when it happened. So unless Math creates a hole for themselves, you end up in a situation where others don’t join because the explanation just isn’t there.

However, what Tayl0r seems to have completely missed and I did was Scummy (and self-conscious) was Math admitting that the timing of their posting was off.

[Andresvmb]

^I did think was Scummy*

[Andresvmb]

the fact ur defending math just solidifies it

u know what.
Math.
I'll give u a chance.
UNVOTE:
lets see what u have to say

This progression considering the way you've been acting all game so far is wack asf.

Uhm, you point out that Math’s admission is Scummy, yet you go after Koba for having a whack progression and voting there? I’m not following.

[Andresvmb]

I think Mark is way over focused on how Koba brushed him off. And I can’t say that I TR that.

@Marky Mark, can you maybe defend your original point a bit more? As in what posts from Koba specifically make you think that Koba is trying to overpost to “hide the important things”? And have you considered that another player might not approach Scum the way you do?

So in 348 I raised a couple of observations: the one you have mentioned ref generating high volumes of fluff and also the fact that she voted jackson while promising to follow up with an explanation, but that explanation never came.

When dk claimed I was misrepping her it wasn't clear which of the above two points she was referring to, or even how it misrepped her, as they were both observations. I was keen to understand this. This could've been answered in a sentence, so when she decided to deflect the matter it seemed worth pursuing as it was interesting in itself that she had decided not to answer what seemed like a very straightforward question.

As a side note, I am not suggesting all or even any scum play the same way as I do (and if they did they probs wouldn't get very far as my scum game is pretty lacking ). I thought it was a useful observation to point out the behavior though, as it might not have been an angle that others had considered. Posting high volumes of fluff is rarely in the town's interests IMO as it makes it more difficult to grasp the important stuff, but that doesn't mean anyone who does it is auto-scum. Correlation but not necessarily causation.

@Marky Mark but Koba did say that they thought that Jackson’s retraction of their test was off yeah? I mean I caught it, and I agree. So they might not have provided tremendous detail, but they did explain it. I’ll give you some background - Koba is not the type of player from my experience that will spend a great deal of time putting everything down. And that’s a play style thing. I understand why some players look for detailed explanations. As you can already tell, I tend to provide them. But not everybody plays like that and it doesn’t mean the play is less effective.

[Andresvmb]

@VP - fair enough that makes sense. I shall look forward to the fireworks from him later on then

I've not seen anything from andres that is giving me major cause for suspicion, although I would find it useful to understand why he finds zdenek scummy in particular rather than any of the other low-activity slots.

Zdenek is making silly arguments about my play and is not really focused on anyone else. So outside of the low activity, they have a bad take on my slot. That point about how my progression on Koba was bad (or whatever word was used) is just lazy.

[Andresvmb]

Maybe I should have phrased it better - pressure can definitely catch Scum. It’s just that there was no buildup to it when it happened. So unless Math creates a hole for themselves, you end up in a situation where others don’t join because the explanation just isn’t there.

Some people were SRing math since his first reads post, iirc shelly called it out as consensusy but others were certianly also SRing the slot. As I've said before, wouldn't be my first choice for a wagon but I think the reasons people were SRing him had been fairly well articulated by the time the wagon formed.

I do recall there being multiple people that were asking for paragraphs to try and understand why Math was being SR. And as Math actually correctly pointed out, shellyc was SR’ing Math for something they did as Town as well. I would have liked to see folks putting votes down perhaps reinforcing their reasoning a bit. That would have created some real pressure. Semi-naked votes all bunched up don’t tend to have the same effect I feel.

[Andresvmb]

Okay but Mark you’ve gone way out of your way to highlight the brush off from Koba, and rely on that for a SR. I would argue your focus has been too narrow, which you yourself recognized in one of your posts.

[Andresvmb]

I have a Negative Lean on NDMath. I clarified what I meant by that statement in a response to shellyc.

[Andresvmb]

Well for context, I openly admitted not to have read every single post this game by then, and was clearly catching up. I’m caught up now. I don’t know that I’m fully convinced (I think Jackson / Zdenek are Scummier), but I do agree that Math needs pressure.

[Andresvmb]

I have a hard time with the argument that Math is being consensus-y. The lurking, absolutely. Agreeing with how the bulk of the players view the game

could

be bad. Or could be Town recognizing that the game is going in the right direction. It’s a hard accusation to make with little information is what I’m trying to say. Or at least it’s hard to really argue against. And if you’re one of those Town players with that consensus view? Why would you SR someone who agrees with you all of a sudden?

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: andres
ill explain later in more detail but their recent posts stink tonme and I think they're doing a lot of open ended solving ie setting up a ML chain

Which mis-executions do you think I’m setting up? So you think the players I have highlighted as Scummy are Town?

[Andresvmb]

@DkKoba why would I be completely rigid on D1? I am expressing my reads as I have them right now. I also don’t really have particularly strong TR’s. Like I have yet to find someone this game that is extremely likely to be Town in my view.

I also think you’re seeing these stances from me because we have a large list of somewhat difficult players to read in this game {Zdenek, DGB, geraintm, NDMath, VPB and Not_Mafia}, some players that have notable Scum skills based on my past experience {shellyc, VPB}, and some players that seem to me to be acting somewhat dogmatically or in my view, Scummy {Marky Mark (by his own admission), Jackson}. I think you’re mostly misunderstood here, but you are also very polarizing. I mean, either VPB, shellyc, DGB, and I (among others) seem to be arguing that you are Town, whereas Jackson, Marky Mark and Not_Mafia (among others) have explicitly stated or argued the reverse.

The closest thing I have to decent Town Reads are {Infinity, Tayl0r}, fully recognizing that I have a reasonable degree of skepticism of both slots still. And look at DGB’s takes there - both Null!

The argument that I am taking a back seat I disagree with, but that’s your perception. So I won’t argue about it.

[Andresvmb]

Ugh I butchered a sentence that I wanted to re-write but you get the point.

[Andresvmb]

Wait, what? Shellyc is being replaced?

[Andresvmb]

That’s a shame. Shellyc always a pleasure playing with you. Until next time!

[Andresvmb]

@Flavor Leaf, don’t believe we’ve played together before. Looking forward.

[Andresvmb]

@Flavor Leaf, don’t believe we’ve played together before. Looking forward.

Hello all! I’m excited to play my first game here. Let me catch up I was not aware the game had started already. Oh and for those that will ask about my experience or where I come from - I typically play on a small rather newish forum called Mafia451. I think I’ve played north of 100 games there (if you go to it you’ll quickly realize I play basically every game). So that’s a bit of background about me. I don’t recognize anybody from the playerlist so this will be fun, though I did read a few games around the site just to get a feel for the meta here.

were you in that Josh game over on 451 about a year back?

I played a few games with Josh yeah. Did you play any games in 451?

[Andresvmb]

@Flavor Leaf, don’t believe we’ve played together before. Looking forward.

Hello all! I’m excited to play my first game here. Let me catch up I was not aware the game had started already. Oh and for those that will ask about my experience or where I come from - I typically play on a small rather newish forum called Mafia451. I think I’ve played north of 100 games there (if you go to it you’ll quickly realize I play basically every game). So that’s a bit of background about me. I don’t recognize anybody from the playerlist so this will be fun, though I did read a few games around the site just to get a feel for the meta here.

were you in that Josh game over on 451 about a year back?

@Andres - I just checked, yes, we were both in Josh Mafia about a year and a half ago together on Maf451. We had a fire scum team, but I think I'm the only one who did anything, and I fake claimed Jester as scum over there, and then JJH got a triple chain venge shot on all the remaining scum.

That was one of the games I was a Scum Dreaming God. I always lose when I roll that roll.

Hahaha I don’t remember this at all. I might go check. Sounds like we had a good time.

[Andresvmb]

I'm ready to make a play, if only to spice things up.

VOTE: Jackson

I’ve been on this slot for like forever. You’re late to the party!

[Andresvmb]

@Flavor Leaf, don’t believe we’ve played together before. Looking forward.

Hello all! I’m excited to play my first game here. Let me catch up I was not aware the game had started already. Oh and for those that will ask about my experience or where I come from - I typically play on a small rather newish forum called Mafia451. I think I’ve played north of 100 games there (if you go to it you’ll quickly realize I play basically every game). So that’s a bit of background about me. I don’t recognize anybody from the playerlist so this will be fun, though I did read a few games around the site just to get a feel for the meta here.

were you in that Josh game over on 451 about a year back?

@Andres - I just checked, yes, we were both in Josh Mafia about a year and a half ago together on Maf451. We had a fire scum team, but I think I'm the only one who did anything, and I fake claimed Jester as scum over there, and then JJH got a triple chain venge shot on all the remaining scum.

That was one of the games I was a Scum Dreaming God. I always lose when I roll that roll.

Hahaha I don’t remember this at all. I might go check. Sounds like we had a good time.

https://forum.mafia451.com/t/josh-mafia-day-4/2086

Hahahaha Josh’s summary in #4141 is hilarious.

[Andresvmb]

If Jackson flips Scum btw, then Koba is probably also Scum. I feel quite unsure about Koba, and maybe that’s also influenced about the weird way they went about voting me (I feel like Town!Koba would have recognized me as Town already). They are making a lot of confident pronouncements about people’s alignments, have repeatedly stated they would return to things never to actually go through with it... I’m finding it somewhat underwhelming.

[Andresvmb]

If Jackson flips Scum btw, then Koba is probably also Scum. I feel quite unsure about Koba, and maybe that’s also influenced about the weird way they went about voting me (I feel like Town!Koba would have recognized me as Town already). They are making a lot of confident pronouncements about people’s alignments, have repeatedly stated they would return to things never to actually go through with it... I’m finding it somewhat underwhelming.

?? this isnt even true have u even read the game

You’re right in part actually, in that you did end up posting a reads list. I had missed that. You never really ISO’ed VPB when you claimed you would though. And I just don’t know, I think you’re all over the place but that isn’t necessarily Scummy either. And your vote on me just didn’t feel right.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway, I don’t want to be seen to be piling on. I am very unsure about Koba is all. I think it’ll help to see what happens moving forward.

[Andresvmb]

@Gamma did you forget that you replaced into shellyc’s slot?

[Andresvmb]

UNVOTE:

Yeah okay I don’t see the latest set of posts as coming from Scum.

[Andresvmb]

I'm ready to make a play, if only to spice things up.

VOTE: Jackson

Yeet koba after me if y'all choose this is all I ask

Also, if you check my latest scum game. You can see how absolutely pushing I was against giving any actual information I gain as a scum role. So you thinking I would out actual results as a traitor is against my kind of playstyle.

Also, if you check my latest scum game. You can see how absolutely pushing I was against giving any actual information I gain as a scum role. So you thinking I would out actual results as a traitor is against my kind of playstyle.

If you wish I can quote from the mafia PT

These posts in particular made me reconsider my stance. Yeah, the first one is the easiest to fake. But I think the transparency you are showing here (comparing your play here versus how you play Scum) and the commitment to the particular read on Koba (which you later admit approaches a tunnel) make me really question whether you’re Scum. I feel like you might be a bit more hesitant to openly admit that you’re tunneling? If that makes sense?

[Andresvmb]

I don’t really care for your description of my progression on Koba

Could you explain it?

I’m not sure I understand what you’re asking. You could either be asking me to explain my disdain for a poor representation of my progression on Koba, or the progression itself.

If you want to better understand my view on Koba, I guess I would say the following: I have a natural inclination to want to trust Koba. We’ve played together once before, where I immediately recognized that they have good instincts as Town, and can push hard (without making giant cases). So we got along quite well, and it ended up being part of the reason we won.

Here, Koba seems to be utilizing elements of that game (same characteristic fire and aggressive attitude), but we don’t seem to agree on much. In fact, at different times, we’ve pushed each other. And I don’t know, I can’t settle on what I think about Koba’s alignment. I am skeptical of VPB for example (they can be excellent Scum, and so I definitely want to see more from him before I make up my mind there), and though Koba said (i) that they are naturally inclined to want to trust those that they have played with as Town, and mistrust those they have seen play Scum (129), and (ii) that they would ISO VPB and come back with thoughts (316), I haven’t seen this really play out or happen at all. Now, Koba might have thought that this wasn’t necessary once they established that VPB was Town (324), but much later they left VPB as null, so I am still left wondering about this.

Also, Koba’s 180 on my slot is somewhat strange. This is what they said early in the game when they were somewhat defending me from a push by shellyc: 133.

And then, this is what they used to explain a vote on me: 828, 837.

Now, it’s entirely possible that Koba thought that they had seen enough from my slot, and that at that stage I was Scum. But then why the change of direction after? See 1021.

On the other hand, and this is really what tilts the balance the other way: Koba is picking fights with practically everybody this game. Koba has SR Me (as per above), shellyc (137, 183), JacksonVirgo (248, 297, 425, 556, 1105), NDMath (259, 685), Zdenek (574), Tayl0r (617, 692, 879, 968, 1133), Not_Mafia (753, 878), geraintm (752), Flavor (927), and Infinity (1007, 1144) by my count.

So what’s the strategy here? Piss everyone off until you get voted out? This does make the fact that there hasn’t been much pushing from Koba against VPB quite interesting. But other than that, I think this is more likely coming from someone who is trying to figure out the game.

Based on some of the pushes that I have highlighted above, 909 is too egregious for Scum too.

[Andresvmb]

Also, I have massively upgraded Marky Mark based on the last few pages. I am thinking along some of the same lines, so definitely feeling good about that slot.

[Andresvmb]

{gerain, koba, DGB, andres, zdenek} is my PoE atm

I’ll be honest, I think there’s a very good chance that you don’t have 3 Scum in here. Outside of knowing my own alignment, you’re putting too many slots that are hard to sort, and practically giving everybody that’s active (or at least that I feel is driving the game somewhat) outside of Koba and I a pass.

[Andresvmb]

{gerain, koba, DGB, andres, zdenek} is my PoE atm

I’ll be honest, I think there’s a very good chance that you don’t have 3 Scum in here. Outside of knowing my own alignment, you’re putting too many slots that are hard to sort, and practically giving everybody that’s active (or at least that I feel is driving the game somewhat) outside of Koba and I a pass.

What are the odds there is one scum in there in your opinion?

What is that, 5 Names? 99%. But you could pick any 5 names at random and have pretty good odds of having 1 Scum in there.

[Andresvmb]

its also a really really bad list, which again tells me that infinity is probscum. infinity has better reads than that.

I actually very much agree.

VOTE: Infinity 324

[Andresvmb]

So? I agree that your POE is bad. Hence, my vote.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t know why VPB is a strong TR of yours.

I also don’t think I necessarily need to debate every read with you. I don’t have a strong sense for geraintm or Zdenek. But there’s a reason for that - those slots haven’t really contributed all that much, or are actively trying not to. I think DGB is Town (I’m rather uncertain about it, but I lean positive there, particularly after their catchup), and I have Koba as a Slight Lean Town, and I know I’m Town.

I think your POE is a strong signal for your alignment. And I really don’t like that you’re saying that well I have bad reads so disregard.

[Andresvmb]

And here’s why I’m not trusting VPB nearly as much as Infinity seems to be.

taylor - townish
jackson - townish
shelly - townish
DGB - scummish
gerain - scummish
baltar - scummish
mark - townish

Let's say infinity is scum. Probably one bus on this list (geraintm). Other partner could be Marky Mark or I could possibly see andres.

I do think andres' town play is pretty hard to fake (based on the recent game I playe with him), so I expect that will become clearer over time.

Gonna let infiinity/shelly/jackson keep scumming it up in this thread. One is probably dumb town though. because geraintm is still scum.

Whoever it was that asked me for a reason to vote geraintm is a very likely buddy. Might have been shelly, but I'm semi-drunk and too lazy too go back.

I still feel pretty justified in asking for reasons. 225 barely counts.

Don't stop believing
Baby, hold on to that feeling



Anyhow, I'm sober now and this line of questioning looks even worse in the light of day.


And, oh hey, geraintm still isn't doing anything.

So up to this point, VPB is very clearly painting Infinity as Scum, or at least questioning aggressively there. And then, out of nowhere, this:

infinity is scum and is also defending shelly pretty hard.

I'm not really getting infinity scum here. What's the bullet points on this again?

Huh?

And then from that, to asking Infinity about their take on something was mighty confusing to me.

There is certainly scum in the pool of people demanding wagon LOGIC, regardless of Math's alignment.

D1 is stagnating and a flash wagon was definitely called for. People crying it's not a wall case are not convincing.

Infinity, what's your take on Taylor's reaction here?

I have Tayl0r as a reasonably strong TR. So the below obviously seemed bad to me:

There is certainly scum in the pool of people demanding wagon LOGIC, regardless of Math's alignment.

D1 is stagnating and a flash wagon was definitely called for. People crying it's not a wall case are not convincing.

Infinity, what's your take on Taylor's reaction here?

who is that pool and why is it scum?

Taylor and Andres off the top of my head.

I think at the very least, it is anti-town to try and immediately stifle an action that was needed to move the game forward. If I'm being less generous, I find that actively scummy because it is a direct attempt to get pressure off math and keep the game stagnated.

I'm sure Math is a big boy and can speak for himself. The town play is to let him respond and see what happens with the wagon.

Anyway, VPB has pressured low-information slots mostly, and overall I will state that he has some good takes, so I’m not trying to say here that I’m certain VPB is Scum or anything of the sort. But I would certainly be cautious, and that’s why I don’t get why Infinity has VPB so high.

[Andresvmb]

@VPB hey I’m not saying that changing your mind about a slot is Scummy. But what I was saying was that you seemed to have specific reasons to be SR’ing Infinity. So then to ask others about the case on Infinity

generally

(when you were basically making said case) just struck me as odd. I wrote down from your initial set of posts I quoted that you and Infinity were not likely to be SvS. But that quick change clearly obliterates that.

What I would say is that I would have maybe preferred to have seen these reasons you’re articulating now more clearly stated at that time.

You also see my final take - I’m unsure. But precisely because I feel unsure, I have a hard time justifying Infinity’s hard TR of yours purely based on tone.

[Andresvmb]

I just get this weird sense of newbie yet experienced in Andres, and I played with him over a year ago, so I know he's decently capable, and I know his join date is deceiving, I just think there's a chance Andres is playing a solid scum game, picking up good gamestate control, if that makes sense.

Like when I look back at the way he greeted me, in conjunction to how he's been pushing, and the fact that I naturally scum read Infinity, I think Andres being scum would have helped the gamestate get to a position where Infinity would have been a strong wagon.

I was thinking of voting Infinity, which I believe would pick up at least 1 more vote, maybe more, so I can see that Infinity could have gained momentum.

If I had wanted to pocket you, I think you would have seen me TR you. You’ll notice I haven’t done that yet.

[Andresvmb]

Andres is frustrating me because I hate people who say "you're reads are wrong therefore you're scum", it's an awful take and it's making it hard for me to read his recent posts objectively.

This is a misrepresentation of what I’m arguing yeah? I never criticized an individual read of yours (or a few of them) and said that because of that, I was SR’ing you. I made an argument that your overall take of the game, and defense for your positioning, make me think you’re Scum. I think there’s a difference there.

[Andresvmb]

wait mark is uborinically trying to push nm lmao.

ok theyre actually openscumming now VOTE: mark

I’m finding this a little frustrating from you @Koba. You’re practically pushing every single person in the game. Here’s my issue with it - it might help you sort through players, but it significantly weakens your ability to have others listen to what you’re saying or take any one push seriously. And if you’re Town, we’re going to need you to be less confrontational and maybe a bit more focused. It can’t be that all of the players you have pointed to are Scum.

[Andresvmb]

Koba I get that this game is confusing but your pressure is a lot less effective when you threaten to get literally half the playerlist limmed.

Yeah Infinity said it here too. Since we’re fighting each other, at least you should consider that the advice is somewhat correct.

[Andresvmb]

Ok, that makes sense. You've been over your koba read and I'm assuming gerain/zdenek is from a place of inactivity but I don't remember you discussing andres in any great detail? He seems to be pretty actively scrutinizing the game imo. I had kinda assumed zedenek was off the table atm due to being replaced (seems foolish to lynch a slot unless they're stone dead scum when the replacement might help us get a better read on it) so was surprised to see them in your POE still?

Zdenek is still there not because we could lim him right now, but just to give my complete thoughts on the gamestate. I don't think anything andres has done is hard to fake as scum.

I’m going to say this because well, I feel like I have to. I can’t fight you for having this take. I can’t. It’s your perception. But it’s also a cop out. It’s like saying, well, overall they seem Town and seem to be contributing, but I think it could all be fake. Yeah, maybe. But you make assessments based on what’s more likely to be the case. I understand the paranoia behind this statement (and in fact, it’s moderating my view of your slot somewhat, together with the fact that I feel like Flavor’s 1385 is a bit aggressive), but it also makes it very difficult for us to ever get on the same page if our interactions are actually TvT. So maybe that’s something you want to think about.

[Andresvmb]

VP, Marky, and T Swizzle should all speak for themselves.

Andre is there because they hard town read me and pocketed me.

Jackson is there because the retraction to the info I can see coming from Town, and I liked their last string of posts.

I’m sorry, what? Point to where I stated I had a hard TR of your slot.

[Andresvmb]

VP, Marky, and T Swizzle should all speak for themselves.

Andre is there because they hard town read me and pocketed me.

Jackson is there because the retraction to the info I can see coming from Town, and I liked their last string of posts.

I’m sorry, what? Point to where I stated I had a hard TR of your slot.

oh, quit playing, you know I'm you're biggest town read, duh

Not even close. I don’t know where you’re getting this from.

[Andresvmb]

what did my 1385 have anything to do with that post?

I’ll lay out what I’m saying in more detail - up until when I put my vote down for Infinity, they were my top SR. I have about a similar reads list to Tayl0r, except I have Koba higher and you lower. Marky Mark thought that you focusing so much on the potential for a traitor claim was NAI. I actually didn’t. It’s an easy way to generate content, seem paranoid, but not reveal too much about yourself. You also pushed hard on JV, who I think is likely Town now. You’re doing the same with Infinity. And they have all followed somewhat aggressive pushes from me, while also casting some shade onto my slot (saying that you think I’m capable of making a push that fits a particular game state or that sets me up well as Scum). If you were thinking about turning against me later in the game, after a Town flip of either JV or Infinity, this would be the way to do it.

[Andresvmb]

andres where do you think scum is.

you seem to be content to allow the game stay mostly out of your control

I think of myself as most effective when I’m not completely driving all the conversations, unless there’s a massive vacuum. There’s enough slots probing and analyzing that I don’t think I need to pursue every angle. And besides, I am reasonably okay at sorting Town. I know from experience I am not particularly good at nailing Scum early. So I also like to find players I can trust and see if I can sort the game by comparing notes.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway @Koba that doesn’t answer your question. I have {Infinity, geraintm} as Lean Scum, but I also have skepticism towards {VPB, Flavor}. I would clear VPB most of the time with a Scum flip from geraintm. I would argue that Flavor has not made any aggressive pushes to the point where I would immediately TR them if someone flipped a certain way just yet. Part of my skepticism has to do with the way VPB and Flavor have discussed my slot. With VPB though, I have expressed consistent caution the opposite way, so I can understand it (and so I’m really just trying to be careful here). Flavor struck me as a little different. It’s also annoying that they keep insisting that I have them as a top TR, but that’s play-style and NAI.

I would be surprised to see {Tayl0r, Marky Mark, JV} flip Scum. Marky Mark maybe less so. Mark is obstinate and seems like he’s genuine in his approach, but I will say that a talented Scum can certainly hide behind what he’s doing. I also don’t think Mafia can be purely solved logically or analytically, so only pursuing inconsistencies or illogical statements won’t always cut it.

I also have a reason to TR Gamma. I am not going to state it explicitly (since we’re not allowed to speculate on anybody’s departure from the game). That’s kind of where I am.

[Andresvmb]

andres where do you think scum is.

you seem to be content to allow the game stay mostly out of your control

I think of myself as most effective when I’m not completely driving all the conversations, unless there’s a massive vacuum. There’s enough slots probing and analyzing that I don’t think I need to pursue every angle. And besides, I am reasonably okay at sorting Town. I know from experience I am not particularly good at nailing Scum early. So I also like to find players I can trust and see if I can sort the game by comparing notes.

What do you do when too many people look town, and there’s no one you can easily engage with?

If I’m TR’ing too many people, I begin questioning my strong TR’s first. It probably means I have the game upside down.

[Andresvmb]

andres where do you think scum is.

you seem to be content to allow the game stay mostly out of your control

I think of myself as most effective when I’m not completely driving all the conversations, unless there’s a massive vacuum. There’s enough slots probing and analyzing that I don’t think I need to pursue every angle. And besides, I am reasonably okay at sorting Town. I know from experience I am not particularly good at nailing Scum early. So I also like to find players I can trust and see if I can sort the game by comparing notes.

love when ppl play entitled like this to obscure their alignment when attention isnt on them <3 . <3

I’m not trying to obscure my alignment what. And how is it entitlement?! I’m saying that I know I make a lot of mistakes. So I’m careful about not being overly aggressive unless I have some degree of certainty or there’s something obvious happening.

[Andresvmb]

I think Andres dropped a few pegs for me definitely because he took my him hard town reading me way too seriously.

@Taylor - Yeah, funny stuff

Sure. Now that I’ve expressed some skepticism your way I dropped a few pegs?

[Andresvmb]

what did you notice in the last few pages that was different?

You’ve been engaging people and pressuring who you think is scum. Honestly I hadn’t seen much scumhunting from you until the last few pages, mostly just saying reads.

Are you coaching them in scum chat rn?

Why do you keep saying this when you know Scum don’t have Day Talk?

[Andresvmb]

Hard-claiming masonry with FL

Uhm, VOTE: DkKoba.

[Andresvmb]

Okay then ignore my previous vote.

VOTE: Infinity 324

[Andresvmb]

Hard-claiming masonry with FL

Uhm, VOTE: DkKoba.

What does Jackson saying that have to do with your vote?

I thought what I did was obvious. If that was actually a poorly timed, but truthful claim, I’m not voting against the wishes of the Mason duo theoretically comprised of two competent Town players. At least not D1.

[Andresvmb]

And how does it not sway my vote exactly? If I have two players I know are Town, that’s a reasonable core to be voting with.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway I am not going to rehash my positions. They haven’t much changed.

[Andresvmb]

@Infinity have you explained why you TR VPB based on their tone yet? I might have missed that post.

[Andresvmb]

And how does it not sway my vote exactly? If I have two players I know are Town, that’s a reasonable core to be voting with.

You know they are town? Huh?

What’s so complicated about assuming that a Mason claim D1 by two players contains Town like 99% of the time?

[Andresvmb]

It wasn’t truthful so it doesn’t matter. But yeah I immediately assumed that if the claim was true, that it was coming from Town.

Also, for the future, reserve using the words “hard claim” for a legitimate one. I am inclined to not believe any claim JV makes the rest of the game.

[Andresvmb]

Current thoughts on taylor, Andres?

I stated before that they are my strongest TR. This remains the case.

[Andresvmb]

/reveal as IC

This is how the did their initial reaction test btw. I would argue that this is somewhat different to writing down the words “I am hard claiming Mason with FL”.

[Andresvmb]

@A50 - what do you think about Andres incessantly strong town read on my slot?

Why?

[Andresvmb]

I could certainly see scum!VP here, the main reason being he often doesn't follow through all the way with his thought processes from earlier in the game. Part of the problem is that he admits to being not totally open with his reads, but I would expect some more questioning relating the concerns with certain slots (shelly and me for example). In some spots, it feels like he's being manipulative or keeping his options open for a mislim. However, the way he described being a journalist influencing his playstyle can explain some of this, since he likes to ask player A about their thoughts on player B a lot without giving his own opinion. I can see a towny mindset shining through in a few spots, which also gives me pause. Some potentially relevant quotes:

Spoiler:

Fair enough, and I agree that it was clear you thought it had merit. But you didn’t give an opinion or commit yourself to anything, it felt kinda like throwing shade to me.

I mean, the way I tend to see it is that town is a push and pull with other town players. Koba was doing a good job pushing shelly hard. I wanted to notch that pressure up a bit (or at least reinforce Koba was not alone in suspicion), but felt no need to take over the inquisition. I think it is fine for town to play supporting roles when the situation calls for it.

This post seemed to match up with his play at the time and felt like a towny way to go about it.

I don't agree they're open ended, she literally said scum is likely 3 out of a group of 4. Don't see why targeting high activity slots or PoE is scummy, even this early (I love PoE). I get there's a playstyle barrier here, do your best to explain it. My only read on taylor is a light townlean since in a recently finished scum game she seemed to care more about what people thought of her.

Curious why you see this slot as townlean when she called you scum for pretty weak ass reasons.

This feels manipulative to me in retrospect.

Like, I want andres to be town here, but I'm not seeing as much fire in the belly as I might expect. I don't know what his D1 play is usually like though.

Follows up on the andres read, which is good. I do think the way he's approaching this read has been a bit odd though, since he hasn't questioned/engaged andres a lot. Could be setting up a possible mislim down the line.

balt what is the progression on me? If you SR'd me do you think I bussed by starting that wagon?

Did I answer this?

Im still a bit skeptical of you, but flash wagoning math was protown. I don't think I'd want yeet you today, even though I said that earlier. Willing to hear you out some more and see if I was wrong earlier

I don't like this, there's not much initiative in terms of solving shelly and he sorta just drops the read.

Not too late for scum to bus Math here. Premium seats are almost filled and that speed hammer is gonna look bad!

Buy now!

This feels towny lol

Yes, I would still rather yeet someone we agree is scummiest.

I think it's a complete waste of a day to some degree to have to yeet n_m, but it is also very annoying behavior to encourage. Last resort for the day if needed I guess

This feels like keeping options open and I don't like it.

VP gives me pause as their tone gives off an almost authority like vibe which makes me think they play good as scum.

Registration and ID please.


This sort of feels like town on town, but Koba, I'd be interested in you responding to the broad strokes of Jackson's case if you will.

This feels very journalist-y, which does fit with the VP's description of his playstyle. (There are a bunch of spots where VP does this kind of thing). More likely to be town-indicative, since it's resorting to his natural style instead of faking.

What I would say is that I would have maybe preferred to have seen these reasons you’re articulating now more clearly stated at that time.

This tends to be my play. It's probably a personality trait from my job (journalist). I'll often hold back initial reasoning a bit because it can prompt reactions. Always happy to be clear though if asked.

Anyhow, I'm biased about the TR on me because I think my own town play is pretty clear most times. I always get some suspicion or concern though because I play OK as scum too.

The bias on the TR is more likely to come from town since scum may not think of that.

im a tonereader mostly. normally i mindmeld with infinity, and infinity generally comes of as obvtown to me. that isnt happening here. and the tone feels off. for more concrete things, see my iso.

I'm on my phone and not ISOing anyone atm. If you have something more substantial than tone/meta, spit it out.

I'm not asking you to make a wall. Literal bullet points will do and I'm not asking you to back it up with evidence. Just tell me

Sort of looks like he's trying to get taylor to "convince" him to vote me. I do think he seems to be looking for justification to SR me in some spots, rather than just saying that he's willing to compromise on me.

Need to think about this a bit more, but leaning scum atm.

I think this is Scummy actually. I’ll say why - I think VPB is more likely as Town than as Scum to realize there’s many people either TR Tayl0r, or signaling that they aren’t really considering to vote there, and then remaining true to their read and voting there. Not saying Scum don’t do this. I just think it’s less likely. I literally said Tayl0r was my strongest TR just before. VPB knows that this is a position they will have to convince others of and argue aggressively. This is not something Scum aims to do.

[Andresvmb]

^TR’ing Tayl0r*

I am not good at picking up when arguments are TvT. I am starting to think that this is one of those cases. I TR Tayl0r strongly because I felt we agreed on the basic view of the game. I think we still do. I’m waiting on flips and additional information to solidify that view, but I think we’re in somewhat of a similar place. I think VPB is doing one of two things: either he’s fighting some of these things because it’ll put Scum in a worse position after (as Scum), or because he genuinely disagrees. There are certain positions he could stake out not to stick out as much. He doesn’t strike me as doing much of that.

[Andresvmb]

I am okay with my vote on Infinity for now, really. There’s too much complaining about how people started SR’ing them too late into D1 too which as an argument makes no sense. Sometimes you go back and catch things you missed the first time.

[Andresvmb]

What exactly are you referring to, the discussion about me/taylor not being TvT?

No, the discussion between Tayl0r and VPB.

[Andresvmb]

What exactly are you referring to, the discussion about me/taylor not being TvT?

No, the discussion between Tayl0r and VPB.

To clarify, I’m saying that their argument

is

TvT. Or that at first glance it feels that way to me.

[Andresvmb]

@Infinity But aren’t you coming out more strongly against VPB the minute that Tayl0r and VPB start fighting and votes are exchanged? And only then do you put some “relevant posts” down? Seems somewhat convenient to me.

[Andresvmb]

@Infinity But aren’t you coming out more strongly against VPB the minute that Tayl0r and VPB start fighting and votes are exchanged? And only then do you put some “relevant posts” down? Seems somewhat convenient to me.

I went back, ISO'd VP, and reconsidered. VP just piggybacked off of your point and it didn't feel like genuine re-evaluation.

But that’s a significant re-evaluation and argument as a means of taking a side in a fight between Tayl0r and VPB that had just happened. The timing is too perfect. If they’re both Town, then as Scum you have very little to lose there.

[Andresvmb]

@Infinity But aren’t you coming out more strongly against VPB the minute that Tayl0r and VPB start fighting and votes are exchanged? And only then do you put some “relevant posts” down? Seems somewhat convenient to me.

I went back, ISO'd VP, and reconsidered. VP just piggybacked off of your point and it didn't feel like genuine re-evaluation.

But that’s a significant re-evaluation and argument as a means of taking a side in a fight between Tayl0r and VPB that had just happened. The timing is too perfect. If they’re both Town, then as Scum you have very little to lose there.

And you also didn’t do this for Tayl0r. You just wrote that Tayl0r is Town. Why didn’t you ISO Tayl0r then?

[Andresvmb]

I am okay with my vote on Infinity for now, really. There’s too much complaining about how people started SR’ing them too late into D1 too which as an argument makes no sense. Sometimes you go back and catch things you missed the first time.

It was such an obvious point though. I haven't had strong scumreads the whole game, and had voiced it multiple times, but they only thought it was scummy once momentum started building.

Essentially you did a version of this, while you’re SR’ing someone for it like in the same set of posts. I just don’t get it.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway I welcome some input from others on this and you can all yell at me for focusing on the wrong thing if that’s what I’m doing. This could also be confirmation bias on my part.

[Andresvmb]

How about this, did any of the reasoning in 1644 feel manufactured to you?

PEdit: andres they totally different scenarios and I don't understand how to explain it better than I did. Me not having scumreads was an obvious point that was clear all game. The few points that VP felt manipulative weren't obvious and needed a reread. Re-evaluation is done in different ways by town and scum, one is towny and one is scummy.

I don’t know about manufactured. I can give you my feedback on what I see in those posts, or where I disagree rather, and you tell me what you think.

You called VPB’s response in 625 manipulative. But I agree. VPB interpreted Tayl0r’s push on you to be weak. And whenever I see a bad case being made against me (particularly as Town), I don’t return with a TR, I go back and probe, to try and demonstrate that the reasoning is poor. So, it’s a legitimate question.

Your reaction to 650 is interesting, but I don’t know that I agree. Setting up a miselim of my slot would be arguing strongly that if you flip Town, I’m always Scum, or something of the sort. Because if I’m wrong about you, and he knows it, he has something to fall back on. Simply stating that they expected me to be more aggressive doesn’t seem to fall in the same category.

And about 891, yeah, I can see what you’re saying here. I will make a few points. One, Not_Mafia is extremely difficult to read. Nothing they do is ever decisively Towny or Scummy. So, it’s reasonable to suggest them as a compromise execution in a tight spot. However, and this is my second point, it’s not impossible to figure them out either. In fact, Not_Mafia is actually voting for DkKoba, and not themselves, and has made a few reads. And, I don’t think we find ourselves in a tight spot yet. So I’m not fully dismissing what you’re saying, but VPB isn’t really being Scummy for pushing something that is logical.

If you ask me, I don’t think Not_Mafia is Scum based on the limited content we have, but I wouldn’t bet the house on it.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway I welcome some input from others on this and you can all yell at me for focusing on the wrong thing if that’s what I’m doing. This could also be confirmation bias on my part.

The infinity elim here feels like a low % play

I get the argument for their POE being off (I am less convinced by the Taylor argument of them playing differently to prior games), but I am not particularly convinced at this point that their POE being off => they are scum

If I were a gambling man, I would put dosh on there being 1+ scum in the lurker pool

As such, I am leaning towards either an elim on someone who has objectivley acted against town interests (ie DK) or someone in the lurker pool (ie DGB, NM or Geraint at a push).

Unfortunately, I’m not going to come along for a DkKoba execution I don’t think. I came out on the overall positive side when I analyzed them in detail. I think I’m going to trust myself here.

[Andresvmb]

How about this, did any of the reasoning in 1644 feel manufactured to you?

PEdit: andres they totally different scenarios and I don't understand how to explain it better than I did. Me not having scumreads was an obvious point that was clear all game. The few points that VP felt manipulative weren't obvious and needed a reread. Re-evaluation is done in different ways by town and scum, one is towny and one is scummy.

I don’t know about manufactured. I can give you my feedback on what I see in those posts, or where I disagree rather, and you tell me what you think.

You called VPB’s response in 625 manipulative. But I agree. VPB interpreted Tayl0r’s push on you to be weak. And whenever I see a bad case being made against me (particularly as Town), I don’t return with a TR, I go back and probe, to try and demonstrate that the reasoning is poor. So, it’s a legitimate question.

Your reaction to 650 is interesting, but I don’t know that I agree. Setting up a miselim of my slot would be arguing strongly that if you flip Town, I’m always Scum, or something of the sort. Because if I’m wrong about you, and he knows it, he has something to fall back on. Simply stating that they expected me to be more aggressive doesn’t seem to fall in the same category.

And about 891, yeah, I can see what you’re saying here. I will make a few points. One, Not_Mafia is extremely difficult to read. Nothing they do is ever decisively Towny or Scummy. So, it’s reasonable to suggest them as a compromise execution in a tight spot. However, and this is my second point, it’s not impossible to figure them out either. In fact, Not_Mafia is actually voting for DkKoba, and not themselves, and has made a few reads. And, I don’t think we find ourselves in a tight spot yet. So I’m not fully dismissing what you’re saying, but VPB isn’t really being Scummy for pushing something that is logical.

If you ask me, I don’t think Not_Mafia is Scum based on the limited content we have, but I wouldn’t bet the house on it.

So just to follow up on 1727, if I had felt that your analysis of these posts that you highlighted was strong or spot on, then I wouldn’t be SR’ing you for the timing. But the fact that a lot of this doesn’t really offset the posts you did call Towny, and yet you come out with a Lean Scum on VPB after the fight between Tayl0r and VPB, coupled with the fact that you now seem to be backtracking... it doesn’t look good to me.

[Andresvmb]

Crap I was trying not to actually quote my own post.

[Andresvmb]

Andres, you don't find it slightly weird that Taylor has called infinity scum since the start of this game and never waivered until the yeet was legit going to happen?

I find that super suspect.

What if it’s a distancing tactic though? Don’t we have Scum anyway? Haha just trying to be optimistic here.

[Andresvmb]

Andres, you don't find it slightly weird that Taylor has called infinity scum since the start of this game and never waivered until the yeet was legit going to happen?

I find that super suspect.

What if it’s a distancing tactic though? Don’t we have Scum anyway? Haha just trying to be optimistic here.

I'll admit. That crossed my mind. Their play at each other is nonsensical

I will say, just pure numbers wise, the odds of this aren’t particularly high hahaha it’s a bad way to approach it and I certainly don’t think that Tayl0r would do this. I’ve seen Scum get nervous when an RVS vote or a joke vote or something that they forgot about is looking decisive on a Partner. This isn’t really that.

[Andresvmb]

I’ll catch up here soon. I’ve been a bit distracted with IRL stuff.

[Andresvmb]

I’m sorry for being low activity I’ll pick this up soon. I’ve been busy. Consider me VLA until Monday.

[Andresvmb]

I’m catching up now I’ll come back with thoughts. Sorry for making you wait guys.

[Andresvmb]

im tipsy asf and drunk me does NOT TRUST THAT ANDRES IS AVOIDING THIS GAME

I’m not avoiding the game I’m like 40 pages behind and RL happened.

[Andresvmb]

Why is Infinity not dead?

[Andresvmb]

Also I have seriously downgraded Tayl0r, but I don’t know to what yet.

[Andresvmb]

{Almost50, JacksonVirgo, Koba} is my Town core right now. Note that I haven’t read the claims and whatever happened carefully so subject to change.

[Andresvmb]

As far as partners, your operating assumption is the team is {VPB, koba, DGB}. I think that's incorrect, but hey let's flip someone and find out. I think town!Taylor is going to be in a very bad spot figuring out the game if that's the limited viewpoint you're coming from.

i think thats a bit unfair. my poe is {FL, koba, vpb, NM, dgb}. people seem to think we should townpass koba. ok. but that leaves four people. thats a pretty narrow PoE. even assuming NM is mafia im still not sure that all three scum are in my PoE. if NM is town im pretty sure theres at least one scum outside that PoE.

I am almost certain this POE is bad.

Alright look I’m going to put my vote where my mouth is. I’m still very far behind in this game. But one thing I noticed is that Tayl0r put a key vote down D1 to almost ensure that one of geraintm and Koba would be the execution, and effectively putting Infinity out of reach. Geraintm flipped Town, and the player that accused Infinity of pushing them in bad faith was NK’ed. And yet, the idea is to execute who, Koba?

I would nuke Tayl0r or Infinity right now. If I’ve missed something that should definitively change my mind, now is the time.

VOTE: Tayl0r

[Andresvmb]

Ah no now the wagon has switched to VPB. Well the pressure I can understand, since VPB was somewhat obstinate about geraintm. But I think it’s a bad idea.

[Andresvmb]

Okay so Tayl0r claimed Vig, and what did Infinity claim? Just PR?

[Andresvmb]

Gamma I don’t have time to respond to your post right now but I thought that sequence of posts was very scummy outside of you catching up and my desire to start a wagon was motivated by the fact that I strongly believe that all 3 wagons are on town. I do think you’re town now so there’s that.

Seriously, why aren’t we nuking this?

[Andresvmb]

I'm a detective, vig claim was a joke

And your claim is useful how? As in what use is their in keeping you around? You’re never going to get a positive result I’m pretty sure.

[Andresvmb]

Taylor is so transparently town.

what are u doing when they flip scum ?

Infinity is most likely posturing as Scum. They’re never posting this for a Partner - it’s too early.

I seriously would much rather execute Infinity. The detective claim is useless.

[Andresvmb]

Given that I was the primary alternative to the gerain wagon, I'm not sure scum are more or less likely to be on the wagon fmpov. A town elim would've gone through no matter what. Koba flipping scum might change that but yeah.

This is objectively false yes? The choice really was between Koba and Geraintm, but enough Koba voters moved to Geraintm to ensure that one went through.

[Andresvmb]

You did have a decent chance of being eliminated D1. But you objectively were not one of the choices at the end of the day. Otherwise, the Koba voters would have split between you and Geraintm, and that clearly did not happen.

[Andresvmb]

@Infinity - I don't want to get too bogged down in mechanics discussion but is your logic basically that there's usually only 1 investigative TPR therefore if nobody else is claiming it then it must be you?

Something like that, yeah. Basically, the expectation should be we have 1 investigative PR, or maybe multiple gated ones. Not saying I'm confirmed town, but the cases where I'm scum should be unlikely enough fypov that they get resolved during massclaim.

I can’t with this argument. Infinity spent the beginning of D2 defending their Claim (which was made way too early), after clearly looking awful based on votes and activity from the day before (clearly pursuing Town), and this makes them almost Confirmed Town?

[Andresvmb]

Have you ever seen a mini normal with no major investigatives?

This is a bad question and you know it.

[Andresvmb]

You think I’m going to mindlessly believe your claim because Mini Normals typically have Investigatives? What kind of argument is that? As if you could never fake Claim under pressure.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Infinity 324

This needs to die. That argument is not an argument any Town player would put forth. A Town player would have waited to L-1 to make the claim, revealed any results then, and then would have stated plainly that such a Role is hard to confirm and therefore not a way to clear them. The way Infinity has approached it is a clear attempt at survival, and should be eliminated.

[Andresvmb]

can we please just let night kills expose infinity and just play with the assumption that they are scum wrt reading bc it will be obvious over time

You don’t let Scum get away just because they’re obvious, in my opinion.

[Andresvmb]

To be honest I don’t like abandoning my early TRs. There’s usually a good reason I had them. Tayl0r deservedly needs to be questioned, but that post from Infinity is giving me a lot of pause (saying they are transparently Town). That is exactly the post you make for Town cred. Though to be fair, the connection between them was so obvious that maybe Infinity is forced into that statement.

[Andresvmb]

Andres, can you read my back and forth with Taylor today? Would love your thoughts if I'm off base.

I’ll take a look. I want to make sure I’ve read all of D2 before I give more thoughts.

And btw, you all know I can push something aggressively and be wrong. So I want to see some pushback and other points of view here.

[Andresvmb]

I was already suspicious of FL but I certainly can see them as Scum. If Tayl0r flips Town don’t let them wiggle out if it. These posts about how they already want to move on from the day phase seem off to me. Why the rush? So you get your preferred Town kill?

[Andresvmb]

Don't think FL is scum cause I think he would've killed. I think I'm happy with that pool. I want to talk to andres about the n_m read.

All I can tell you is that Not_Mafia seems more confrontational than when I’ve seen them play Scum. But I’ve also never really played a long game with them. So there’s that.

[Andresvmb]

Koba I finally understand why you wanted Tayl0r dead so much. I just read your interaction with them around your Claim.

[Andresvmb]

I also think VPB is Town now. That defense of Koba I largely agree with.

[Andresvmb]

being an experienced mod

Where are you getting this from?

It is true that it's possible mark is a VT but in any case, if koba is town, it gives scum information they didn't need to know.

C’mon this is silly. Koba as Scum never publicly reveals he figured out a PR. Ever. The speculation around it is kind of annoying and I can understand why Koba is getting frustrated. They very well could have spotted Scum, and they are entirely correct in revealing that information from where I sit, even at the risk of outting a PR. And I’m going to guess that the odds that Marky Mark was RB’ed or JK’ed are pretty low.

[Andresvmb]

in the world where you apply that logic, infinity has much higher scum equity as they didnt even have a reason to out.

I strongly disagree. In a vacuum, if someone told me they were in a game and players acted the way they did in this game (assuming it was anonymous, meaning I wasn't told "names" but rather codes. A did this, B did that.. etc); I would have concluded the towniest of all claimants/outed slots is the one that claimed Detective after having been tricked to believe there was a soft-guilty on them.

We haven't heard from Mark yet (at least I haven't reached the point) so setting him aside. You and DGB had the worst actions (i.e. claims) and you should be ashamed if you are Town (and in your case it applies regardless of your alignment)

Sigh. I don’t agree with this.

DGB made it seem like they had what appeared to me to be a Cop check yes? At least we know Infinity interpreted it that way. If I’m on the opposite side of this (and btw, I actually do have a specific game where I was on the other side of this so you can see how I approached it), I would have immediately concluded DGB was Scum and voted them. No claim from me, nothing. I would have pushed DGB to commit to what kind of result, and immediately started yelling for their death. It’s either a horrible gambit (which is what it turned out in my case), or Scum. So the fact that Infinity (i) claimed, and (ii) even more strangely, threw out a TR to DGB, is an incredibly suspicious reaction.

[Andresvmb]

Hasn’t Infinity been on Gamma, Koba who is clearly Town, and Geraintm? Why is Marky Mark concluding that Infinity is iffy on 2592?

[Andresvmb]

Alright yeah once I see a VC I might just re-vote Tayl0r.

[Andresvmb]

I am vanilla and have too many toen reads, nothing of value will have been lost.

But....I need people with brains to back me up here...


Anyhow, I'm very comfortable in taking Taylor up on her proposition. I think scum is far more likely in the Taylor, infinity combo (possibly in A50 or Mark, though less likely), than in DGB. I know I'm town and will happily put my life on the line for this bargain. Plus it helps clean up the geraintm wagon further, which is bad for scum.

Alright VPB, I’ll back you up on this. I agree with you here.

[Andresvmb]

gun to head id say scum are {dgb, vpb, nm}.

my reads list is something like:
{a50, mark, (me), JV, andres}
{FL, infinity}
{NM, koba}
{dgb, vpb}

i doubt there are any scum in the top row, doubt theres more than 1 scum in the top 2 rows. i bet theres at least two scum in the bottom four people.

If Tayl0r is Town then sure, I’ll pay some attention to this. I already think A50 is Town. I’m not buying Mark or Infinity yet, so I’ll re-think those.

[Andresvmb]

I also still very much think Infinity is correct. Some of Tayl0r’s reactions can easily come from Town. If you’re so convinced that Koba is Scum, the reaction around the Claim can start to make sense. At that stage, there was some pressure on Koba. The one Scum motivation Koba could have in revealing that information (that Marky Mark is PR) is if they think that they’re not going to survive the day, and they want to give their Scum buddies a heads up (since they can’t communicate over chat, and the information would not have been accessible to the entire Team otherwise, which could be crippling).

[Andresvmb]

VPB would have, as Scum, a massive incentive in keeping Koba around to spot other PRs before turning on them, so that’s also something to think about.

In other words, the Tayl0r/Marky Mark/Infinity v. Koba/VPB/DGB could easily point to the Scum Team if we get the flips right. Which is maybe why you’re seeing so much acrimony at this stage.

[Andresvmb]

And of course, Koba did not appear to know that Marky Mark had failed to receive their message until the Day transpired.

[Andresvmb]

taylor pivoting to my currently biggest townread is like :S

dgb is your biggest townread? :S

I'm gonna say Koba & Baltar.

Marky increasingly scummy.

I am enjoying FL in this game.

And DGB confirms somewhat my view of the game. Though, let’s get real. No Scum is going to place their Partners as their top TRs. That I have yet to see.

[Andresvmb]

I also still very much think Infinity is correct.

You mean you think infinity is the correct yeet today?

Yes.

[Andresvmb]

I also still very much think Infinity is correct. Some of Tayl0r’s reactions can easily come from Town. If you’re so convinced that Koba is Scum, the reaction around the Claim can start to make sense. At that stage, there was some pressure on Koba. The one Scum motivation Koba could have in revealing that information (that Marky Mark is PR) is if they think that they’re not going to survive the day, and they want to give their Scum buddies a heads up (since they can’t communicate over chat, and the information would not have been accessible to the entire Team otherwise, which could be crippling).

Though to be fair to Koba, they just needed soft confirmation that Marky Mark hadn’t received the message, and easily could have explained what would give it away during the Night when presumably they planned on who to send the message to. So that theory definitely doesn’t hold much weight under scrutiny.

[Andresvmb]

I also still very much think Infinity is correct.

You mean you think infinity is the correct yeet today?

Yes.

They’ve reacted suspiciously under pressure, have made some declarative statements I really don’t understand, and they really believe the idea that their Claim should make them close to Confirmed Town and immune from pressure. Outside of the fact that they’ve been pressuring Town slots repeatedly. I’m baffled.

[Andresvmb]

The dead player was a danger to

To whom? I don't quite follow what you are trying to say here (sorry!)

@mark whats 2x2+25-9?

20 I guess if we apply the conventional operator order. Why do you ask?

Will say, weird Koba didn't die after soft claiming power.

Pure WIFOM IMO - I don't see what the value is of bringing it up at this point in proceedings

VOTE: infinity

nice scummy early claim

Why is that scummy? - I'm not experienced with PR optimal plays but it seems like this is good for transparency (ie he's not waited for DGB to ellaborate and then claim something that fits with the detail). I'm not defending him either, I just think its NAI.

And btw, this is ALL the confirmation Scum!Koba needed for Marky Mark PR. The Scum Team would have obviously picked up on this, and no further discussion was needed. They could have invented some ridiculous reason to ask the question, and we would have never known.

[Andresvmb]

DGB made it seem like they had what appeared to me to be a Cop check yes? At least we know Infinity interpreted it that way. If I’m on the opposite side of this (and btw, I actually do have a specific game where I was on the other side of this so you can see how I approached it), I would have immediately concluded DGB was Scum and voted them. No claim from me, nothing. I would have pushed DGB to commit to what kind of result, and immediately started yelling for their death. It’s either a horrible gambit (which is what it turned out in my case), or Scum. So the fact that Infinity (i) claimed, and (ii) even more strangely, threw out a TR to DGB, is an incredibly suspicious reaction.

When does scum ever guilty me in that situation? How the hell do I have the leverage to force a claim from

her

when

I

have a guilty on me?

You’re not understanding the point. If someone has a fake guilty on you (which you would know based on your knowledge of your actual alignment), you must conclude that it’s either a Scum ploy of sorts, or a gambit. So you would have tried to ensure that you narrow down what kind of result first, or asked more carefully if they’re serious, and you would have pushed back hard on it. But you immediately concluded it was a reaction test (without confirmation), which tells me that you know that DGB is Town in that scenario, and fishing.

[Andresvmb]

And you’re right that Scum probably don’t come out beginning of D2 with a hard fake guilty. I can understand that part of it. But you didn’t push back on it much. You just clearly assumed it was coming from Town and then you coughed up a claim very quickly. And why TR DGB for the test? It lead to you revealing your Role. I would have clearly tried to make sure what it was before revealing any information that was damaging to the Town.

[Andresvmb]

The broader point is simply that instead of seeking clarity and pushing back, you sought to defuse by claiming after a few votes and survive. You would have seen me get quite aggravated if someone maintains a gambit like that against me to the point where I’m forced to claim, but you weren’t even there yet.

[Andresvmb]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: DGB

Koba wagon is going nowhere, though I very much still believe they're scum.

Koba has the most verified claim at this point, which they made under no real threat of yeet. Either you think they are terrible at playing, or they made a dumb move as town.

I feel like a real Koba shill at this point, but jesus! I don't really follow the Koba is scum logic here.

I agree with taylor that it was not a great play as scum or town. The claim was slightly town indicative but not enough to make them conf town or anything.

This interaction is Scummy too. Infinity immediately recognizes that VPB has a very valid point, but instead of fully conceding (and agreeing that Koba is Town), they leave an opening out there while moving on.

[Andresvmb]

Excuse me if I'm not behaving in the most rational manner if I have a guilty on me. When the reaction test was revealed, yeah I was pissed at DGB but I was more upset with myself tbh.

The point is that you didn’t respond from a Towny mindset, from what I can tell. If you *know* you’re Town, you would have never entertained DGB there until absolutely forced to. This is not the approach you took. This much is obvious to me.

[Andresvmb]

I guess what I'm saying is that I felt like I was forced to.

If you really are Town, you’re never forced to do anything there. Because if that gambit actually results in your death for some reason, then it’s obvious that the Scum Team drove the whole thing. So if anything, there you let yourself die. Particularly since Detective isn’t particularly strong. At L-1, if you’re I don’t know Doctor, fine claim. But you never even got close. It doesn’t make sense to me.

[Andresvmb]

Well I'm town so

I assume this is a reaction test, but lmk if you want me to claim

Like here. You immediately assumed it was a reaction test, and immediately offered to Claim. The fact that you never even considered that it could be a Scum gambit to out your role, and that you should be more defensive about it, I’ll never understand.

Anyway, I fully grant that this could be Town sub-optimal play as Koba mentioned, but I don’t know, I’m not seeing it.

[Andresvmb]

I mean it is weird infinity was saying at the time it was a reaction test (which if true, why would you ever claim???), but then is saying he assumed it was a true guilty.

Also, if you are town! infinity and make a collosal fuck up like that by claiming, why assume Koba is scum and not also town who fucked up?

Except I can completely understand Koba’s logic.

[Andresvmb]

Koba is Confirmed. The above is preposterous.

[Andresvmb]

You have a Claim, backed up with an earlier test, and a correct result. Yet you want to leave a Scummy player alive and re-confirm Koba? That’s just... completely wrong.

[Andresvmb]

I need a VC. I think I’ve made up my mind for today.

[Andresvmb]

It’s also incredibly telling for me that Andres came in to try to setup a position where Taylor-Andres-Jackson can get through today with all alive.

I push Andres as scum, and look at them.

I don’t necessarily think they both have to be scum, but I am not wrong on multiple.

This is your idea of me defending my Partner Tayl0r?

Look if you just want to shade me this much, why don’t you vote me and try to get me executed? And then you can look completely foolish in the process.

[Andresvmb]

This is a joke right? Flavor is trying not to actually suffer any consequences from a potential Tayl0r flip so I get blamed for “moving the game in a completely different direction”?

Maybe I just think that this is the right course of action? That ever cross your mind? And where do you disagree exactly?

[Andresvmb]

No the part that is annoying is that you seem to be assuming that I’m TR Tayl0r all of a sudden. Which I’m clearly not doing. In fact, I asked for a VC in preparation of voting there. If you hadn’t gotten ahead of yourself, maybe you would have seen me do just that.

[Andresvmb]

How is it convenient? I clearly announced I wanted a VC. And I also just stated that a course of action suggested by Tayl0r was preposterous. You seem bent on trying to create a narrative that is not only completely divorced from what I am actually doing, but is also pretty Scummy. This is a way for you to back out of pushing Tayl0r by claiming I’m baiting you. It’s a set up.

[Andresvmb]

I would say I hope y'all listen to my reads when taylor flips town, but that isn't even a reasonable hope because y'all still scumread me for some reason. Fuck this game.

If you want people to even change their minds about you, posting this sort of nonsense is not the way. It’s also blatant ATE.

[Andresvmb]

Hard disagree that it’s from what you’re actually doing.

I highly doubt you were just waiting for a VC and planned on voting Taylor when you were clearly stating you wanted Infinity.

If I hadn’t shown up, you would never have said you were going to go Taylor.

If you didn’t town read me as hard as you did, I’d have half a mind to ring you up now

I really don’t care what you think I was going to do. I am telling you what I was going to do. And I’ve also plainly stated that I would vote between Infinity and Tayl0r. On this day. Not that long ago. Did you miss that too?

[Andresvmb]

Just use your common sense. This line of attack is ridiculous. Why would I ask for a VC if I was going to stay on Infinity? Why would I do that exactly? Because that’s where my vote is right now.

[Andresvmb]

Why would I back out of pushing Taylor as scum?

1) I’m not afraid of taking heat from pushing a misfade as scum.
2) Taylor’s one of the people who wouldn’t be against pushing me, which as scum, would be a problem area.

There’s just no reason for me to back off from Taylor if I were scum here. I’m coming out because I had already noticed weird stuff with your slot when I mentioned the 4 things that happened, and you come in and push things like this? This is incredibly fair to think you are scum who’s been coasting until they need to come in and make some memorable stuff happen. That’s been your MO all game, and I think it’s scum indicative.

Or maybe you could take my actual statements at face value, particularly since they relate to events outside of the game, that RL interferes with my participation towards the end of D1 and the beginning of D2. And so unless you are claiming that I’m the type of player that would lie about that, I suggest you take this crap back really fast.

[Andresvmb]

You’re using the “why would I ask for a VC”, but like, what even is that? Why is that ever something you’re trying to push as townie.

Because I want to ensure I’m not hammering a player without knowing? What kind of nonsense is this? Seriously.

[Andresvmb]

My MO is correctly scum reading people that everyone else is seemingly universally town reading.

It makes it so I have to 1 vs All a lot of times. I think Andres is scum. I am not going to win this argument yet, but I assure you, unless Andres chickens out and kills me, I will prove he is scum.

Oh if I was actually Scum, I would drag you to the end of the game just to revel in the 1v1. So that I can rub it in at the end. It’s rather unfortunate I’m not and I have to suffer through this nonsense.

[Andresvmb]

Official Vote Count 2.02

derp

---

Official Vote Count 2.02

With 11 votes in play, it takes 6 to eliminate someone.

VP Baltar: 3

(Tayl0r Swift, Not_Mafia, Infinity 324)

DrippingGoofball: 2

(Flavor Leaf, Marky Mark)

Tayl0r Swift: 2

(DrippingGoofball, VP Baltar)

Infinity 324: 1

(DkKoba)

Not Voting: 3

(Andresvmb, Almost50, JacksonVirgo)

Deadline

: (expired on 2020-11-21 15:36:41)

Mod Notes

: –[/area]

You switched your vote Koba, and DGB moved onto Infinity right? Anything else I missed?

[Andresvmb]

I guarantee you, I will win the 1v1 if you end up doing that.

Sure. It’s not like I wasn’t onboard with executing Geraintm because I questioned the Scum strategy, and was TR’ing Gamma and never voted there. Oh wait.

[Andresvmb]

Not saying that being right makes me Town. But trying to discourage Town executions that might have been plausible D1 sure seems like a crappy way to play Scum.

[Andresvmb]

So you’re the scum making the townie choices, there’s always one. You fit that bill easily.

Now you’re just performing for the crowd in ways that make you come across as townie. That’s fine. That won’t last as the game goes on.

The fact that you are coming across better than me here is specifically why you are scum here.

I’m just letting you know, you’re picking a fight with Town. I don’t know why yet. You might just be horribly misguided. Or you might be protecting someone and trying to bring down my credibility. But I’ll figure it out eventually.

[Andresvmb]

So you’re the scum making the townie choices, there’s always one. You fit that bill easily.

Now you’re just performing for the crowd in ways that make you come across as townie. That’s fine. That won’t last as the game goes on.

The fact that you are coming across better than me here is specifically why you are scum here.

I’m just letting you know, you’re picking a fight with Town. I don’t know why yet. You might just be horribly misguided. Or you might be protecting someone and trying to bring down my credibility. But I’ll figure it out eventually.

And I am letting you know, I am about 80% sure you are scum here, so you acting like I’m 100% no other options is also scummy.

This isn’t productive, but you ARE wrong.

[Andresvmb]

If you want people to even change their minds about you, posting this sort of nonsense is not the way. It’s also blatant ATE.

You’re right, this really isn’t helping. I hope you understand why I’m frustrated this game, but I’m going to try to stay calm. May towncase taylor later today.

Infinity look I really do think you’re Scum. I’m not going to lie to you. But the best way to help, if in fact you’re Town, is by working to point us in the right direction. I have a sinking suspicion Flavor is coming at me to set me up next if Tayl0r flips Town. And unfortunately that’s going to suck up a lot of oxygen these next few days. I have been consistently questioning the slot (you can look at my ISO if you want). I would focus some attention on trying to make up your mind about me and Flavor.

[Andresvmb]

If you want people to even change their minds about you, posting this sort of nonsense is not the way. It’s also blatant ATE.

You’re right, this really isn’t helping. I hope you understand why I’m frustrated this game, but I’m going to try to stay calm. May towncase taylor later today.

Infinity look I really do think you’re Scum. I’m not going to lie to you. But the best way to help, if in fact you’re Town, is by working to point us in the right direction. I have a sinking suspicion Flavor is coming at me to set me up next if Tayl0r flips Town. And unfortunately that’s going to suck up a lot of oxygen these next few days. I have been consistently questioning the slot (you can look at my ISO if you want). I would focus some attention on trying to make up your mind about me and Flavor.

We’ve gone over this Flavor. I think you need help.
Nah, you town read me.