Mini Normal 2183 | Innocent Things | Game Over!

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: shellyc

Let’s dance.

Hello everybody.

[Andresvmb]

Hello everybody.

newbscum entrance scumtell alert

I love this. The condescension and disrespect. It’s all packed into very few words.

[Andresvmb]

Hey Johnny. Yeah we’ve played... what is it, three times before? This would be the fourth if I’m not wrong. I lost 2 consecutive games as Town against Shelly Scum, and the third one she replaced out as Town (I was also Town). If I believed in policy executions, I would push for shellyc but that’s not my style. The entrance was simply an acknowledgement that Shelly knows what she’s doing as Scum.

[Andresvmb]

I would also note that all of these games have taken place over the span of a few months.

[Andresvmb]

Gotcha. Watching people interact with Shelly is always interesting. What do you make of Hank thus far?

Complete blank. I would be lying to you if I told you I had any sort of inclination there.

[Andresvmb]

hiya peeps.
recognise a few more names than normal.

this game started on the 4th of the 12th, wonder when we will be done by.

Geraintm should we expect much of the same from you D1 that I’ve seen in the past? Though to be fair, last time you were actually onto something D1, so maybe don’t sell yourself short?

[Andresvmb]

hiya peeps.
recognise a few more names than normal.

this game started on the 4th of the 12th, wonder when we will be done by.

Geraintm should we expect much of the same from you D1 that I’ve seen in the past? Though to be fair, last time you were actually onto something D1, so maybe don’t sell yourself short?

Which game are you referring to?
I am not expecting much more from me today than normal. Shall see after that....

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=84723

[Andresvmb]

Why didn't you vote? Also explain?

i voted in my post EXACTLY before that so...?

it was a joke. but newer scum often greet the entire thread as an opening. (no offense andres)

I’m not a newer player, and I try to be friendly as either alignment (at least to start). You’ll find plenty of games on my home site where I come in and greet people generally. It depends on my mood.

[Andresvmb]

UNVOTE:

I’m leaving Town on shellyc. I’ll catch up on the rest of the arguments later.

[Andresvmb]

^leaning*

[Andresvmb]

Automatic townie points to whoever votes Andre with me

Just out of curiosity, why do you think I’m a good push here?

[Andresvmb]

You could spend the time to find a better avatar

Sacrilege! don't mess with k-pop bro

If anyone is familiar with Johnny they should tell me if his behavior is indicative of anything

Right now his questions seem preemptive that gives me pause

I was scum partner with Johnny on our last game and I can say that his behavior is so far very different but not sure if that's AI considering he knows I'm in this game.

I didn’t see anybody ask you, so I’ll do it: what differences do you see between Johnny’s game when you played with them as Scum and this game?

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: unwnd

I’ll place this here for now.

The explanation in my head is a bit whacky, but I’ve yet to be able to identify Scum D1 on this forum, so I am trying to think outside of the box. I think unwnd was taking too strong a stance in the Dunnstral v. Nopointinactingup dust up between 94 and 105, while leaving Dunn as a Null Read in 149. One way to interpret this could be of Scum that is eager to encourage a fight between two Town, while leaving the other player for a future push if they’re wrong. Outside of that, I don’t find unwnd’s posts particularly Scummy, so it’s a hard one.

Also, I think shellyc is asking the right questions so I’ll maintain my TR there.

[Andresvmb]

I’m also inclined to think that nopointinactingup is likely Town based purely on the fact that nobody jumped to their defense really. Fuzzy piled on in 143 to defend Dunnstral, and most others ignored the interaction for the most part. Flavor Leaf decided it was more important to make things about himself, so I don’t know what to make of that yet. Will keep reading.

[Andresvmb]

This feels like a town!andres game

I get an intentionally passive vibe from FL atm

I don’t know what to make of Flavor here yet, but I expect Flavor’s intensity and analysis to pick up later this game. For now I’m null on the slot, but I will say that Flavor admitting that certain posts are performative, and generally not committing to any read doesn’t strike me as Scum!Flavor. Just food for thought.

[Andresvmb]

I’m also inclined to think that nopointinactingup is likely Town based purely on the fact that nobody jumped to their defense really. Fuzzy piled on in 143 to defend Dunnstral, and most others ignored the interaction for the most part. Flavor Leaf decided it was more important to make things about himself, so I don’t know what to make of that yet. Will keep reading.

This is a bad reason to townread them

I literally wrote that I have them as Null. Did you miss that?

[Andresvmb]

I’m also inclined to think that nopointinactingup is likely Town based purely on the fact that nobody jumped to their defense really. Fuzzy piled on in 143 to defend Dunnstral, and most others ignored the interaction for the most part. Flavor Leaf decided it was more important to make things about himself, so I don’t know what to make of that yet. Will keep reading.

This is a bad reason to townread them

I literally wrote that I have them as Null. Did you miss that?

Oops, I thought you were talking about my read of Flavor. Nvm, carry on.

[Andresvmb]

I should have clarified but yes, I meant nopointinactingup

To be honest, I didn’t express an actual read. I simply pointed to how I was perceiving the game state given my admittedly whacky theory about unwnd. There’s a few other things I caught about unwnd if you don’t mind - like their stance on Flavor’s self vote. In my head, the posts around it seem to have been put forth for the sake of appearing Town. Flavor had what, two votes including their own at the time? Three at most? I’ve made the same specific argument but to a player I was TR’ing who was about to get executed (actually, it was the Mod funny enough). But to a player this early in the game with only a few votes? Particularly since it was obviously some sort of attempt to make something happen? I just thought it was a bit superfluous. Does anybody really believe that Flavor needs to be told that self-voting is not the best way to identify Scum?

Anyway, I’m being nit-picky. Shellyc also posted that unwnd’s read on Dunn was a bit wishy washy. I agree. So maybe I’m not totally off-base?

[Andresvmb]

but I’ve yet to be able to identify Scum D1 on this forum,

I understand your reasons extrapolated in the rest of your post but I'm not sure why you included this in your thought process

It’s important that I say that because I want to be challenged on my reads. I am decent at figuring out what the Scum have been angling towards later in the game (I would argue it’s my greatest strength). But my ability to identify Scum early in the game is just not great. So take my views with a grain of salt.

[Andresvmb]

You're here and that's cool

Flavor knows better to self-vote, he's supposed to be experienced. If you want to argue if anyone was being superfluous it was Flavor, and frankly I'm not gonna sit and entertain and neither should you. Unfortunately, Flavor has a huge ego. I know you're not probably not aware of it but it is always bordering anti-town, and usually when I find myself in conversations with him they end up with me leaving them empty, at least in the aspect of how he treats the game. Right now Flavor has sat here and said 'i tried to get the game started' but like I predicted nobody nibbled and now I've been left with an empty thought on what it all meant, so feel free to give your perspective Anders

Oh I’ve played with Flavor enough times to have a sense for the player that he is. But you know, Flavor is a far better Scum player than he is Town. It’s why they have a Scum guide and not a Town guide on their signature. So in a way, him not putting much effort into this game doesn’t immediately make the alarms in my head go off. If I spot anything I’ll put it out there, but for now, I’m not seeing Flavor Scum. Of course, Flavor doesn’t deserve to be TR after mostly talking about themselves. I was just saying - I mostly ignored the self-vote as a vanity play and moved on. I think you should too.

[Andresvmb]

Giving players like Flavor no accountability allows to run amuck and do whatever the fuck he wants. I don't care if he's Don Corgi and I didn't care in the last game I played with him, his actions have to prove to me otherwise he's going to beneficial to town wincon

Yeah I agree Flavor needs to prove he’s Town. Of course. He has yet to do anything crazy though.

[Andresvmb]

@unwnd, ah but my point was not that you were instigating an attack. I made a strategic observation about what you could be doing as Scum. IF (admittedly a decently big if, but I would lean positive on their aggressive attitudes) Dunn and nopoint are both Town, then what you did would make a lot of sense as Scum. You chose a side despite the fact that you don’t particularly TR one side of the argument (you claimed to have done it for a friend, but that just seems like a potential pocket attempt to me), which sets you well for the next few days. If the fight continues (say, because you believe Dunn is stubborn), and we end up in a situation where one of them flips, you get to hide behind the person actually driving the attack. It happens often enough around these parts that I simply had to point it out.

[Andresvmb]

@Unwnd I didn’t think it took a whole lot of sophisticated thinking to jump in there though.

Would you describe yourself as an experienced player?

[Andresvmb]

So then you’ll forgive me for arguing that you are definitely capable as Scum of making the decision of jumping between nopoint and Dunn and taking a side.

Anyway, that’s enough of this point. I’ll let others come in and put their own thoughts forward.

[Andresvmb]

@Titus, can you walk me through your vote on shellyc? I’m trying to figure out if there’s anything I’m missing.

[Andresvmb]

83 is an implied read, I'm not sure how you see it as a slip instead

There is a real fine line between making implied reads and subconsciously blurting out prior knowledge.

yeah last game I said someone was in town..... I meant to make it sound like a town read . I am not sure if that what happening here but I think it something I need to keep my eyes on

Dunnstral - why do you think that Shlly is town as you gave zero indication why you have that read


@ FL- how can you tell. Doing a little more of nothing still gets you nothing. Anways Not Mafia is giving all indication of his town game. He did this last game as town and in the other game I saw where he is town.

We should prob sort FL and Titus. Both are good players and can be dangerous if they are scum. Just my humble opinion

huh..how am I defending Dun...... I am confused as I did not attack or defend Dun but was trying clarify the motivation for their actions.

I didn’t directly address this. Fuzzy I don’t think you have to come out guns blazing to defend someone. You directly empathized with Dunnstral, no? You are indirectly saying in 143 that you’ve done as Town in a different game what nopoint is arguing is actually a Scum slip. Now, this isn’t to say that I don’t agree with your point. In fact, I do. I do the exact same thing as Town, where I plainly state that I think someone else is Town (in other words, it doesn’t necessitate a Scum perspective). I think your statement that you’ll keep an eye out for what’s to come is exactly what I intend to do.

[Andresvmb]

@Flavor if you don’t intend to really play this game, then you shouldn’t be surprised that people want to see you out of it. However, I would prefer if you took some days off or something, and came back with some energy to try and solve this game. You are potentially giving cover for Scum to vote you and not face any consequences. And if you’re Scum, then sure keep acting this way and you will certainly be the target of an execution.

[Andresvmb]

I believed it then but no one else sees it so idk, they can’t all be scum

Real Scum slips in my experience are rare. Like obvious mistakes that truly reveal that you’re Scum just don’t happen all that often. Scum tend to be careful. If anything, what appear to be mistakes made by Scum can be simply differences in style or communication. We just came out of a game where a Town player was thought of being Scum for referring to themselves in the third person (and being coached into a post).

I think the evidence for a slip needs to be overwhelming, or the slip really obvious. Otherwise, it’s just not that.

[Andresvmb]

Also, Gera saying we wasted time when absolutely nobody was here is scummy.

I wish we had an active enough game where that was wasting time.

+1

It looks like trying to find an excuse to jump on your wagon if you ask me.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

Dunn I would like to hear from you re: this vote

Was thinking about voting either FL or nopoint, FL is acting off and we shouldn't let him downplay it

Is off Scummy to you? Do you not buy the excuse that they might actually be burnt out?

[Andresvmb]

unwnd is town, at least that's what I'm willing to bet on for now since with the spontaneous way he is speaking he will get found out soon if he was scum.

Johnny is looking worse so I'm going to have to take back that alliance request. I find the way johnny plays as scum is lurking and opportunism and I got a sense of it in his recent posts.

shelly is looking like she's trying to solve, but the way that she's doing it seems odd and commentary-ish. also, shelly I would like you to explain your Andres read.

I like fuzzy and vibing with a lot of what he's saying

Why are so happy to defend unwnd here? It can’t be that speaking in a spontaneous way is all you have to hang your hat on.

[Andresvmb]

@Andres, what do you think of my point against FL?

Look I’ll give you my download, and you tell me what you think.

Could Flavor’s self-vote “plan” have been disingenuous - an obvious attempt at making themselves look Scummy so that they can explain away their survival later in the game, without attracting too many votes? Yes, maybe. Flavor doesn’t seem that keen on giving out reads or establishing themselves in this game, so that’s not a positive sign. It’s also a marked departure from how they’ve played Scum the last few times we’ve faced each other though, and that in a way also makes sense (it would be easy for me or others to spot I think).

Where I’m struggling is when I try to make sense of it from a strategic perspective. Flavor seems fine under pressure as Scum, but he knows that he needs allies, or Town players that are in a position to make errors. The easiest way to get significant errors is by pocketing players, or at least have others actually think you’re Town. He doesn’t seem particularly focused on even projecting Towniness here, openly admitting to not trying hard, and inviting votes. Not the most viable Scum strategy long-term is it? The other side of it is that he’s buying time, but Flavor doesn’t like to sit on the sidelines for too long. If he continues to drag his feet for too long execute him. Otherwise, I think there’s better places to look for now.

[Andresvmb]

Also, Gera saying we wasted time when absolutely nobody was here is scummy.

I wish we had an active enough game where that was wasting time.

+1

It looks like trying to find an excuse to jump on your wagon if you ask me.

You've not played with me before? I will not be jumping onto any wagons.
And as people are still discussing them, I stand by my statement that a bunch of days have been wasted.

Maybe you won’t jump on any wagons, but I still expect you to highlight stuff you see. You put the spotlight on two Scum players last time we played on D1 and were executed for it - I went back and checked. So don’t try and pretend that you can’t make any contributions because that’s not true.

[Andresvmb]

When you get far past enough knowing not to self vote, you reach an area where it starts to be okay again.

Noting that I only have 2 completed games with Andres, and both of them I was scum, one off site, so that’s an interesting thing to comment on my town game that I’m slightly FoSing.

Just for fun I’ll make a comment about this. You know how I can tell that you’re a better Scum player than Town? Even if we haven’t played that much together? Because having bad reads in a game does not get you executed. People expect the performance and the arrogance. But they don’t seem to be waiting around for you to guide the Town (as Town). It’s why people remember you as a dangerous Scum player above anything else.

It doesn’t mean you’re bad Town btw. I just think it’s obvious where your strengths are.

[Andresvmb]

@Johnny there’s a lot of suspicion being thrown your way. What do you make of it?

[Andresvmb]

@Hank can you actually contribute instead of saying that you will?

[Andresvmb]

I think I’m the obnoxious Town player type too - just not too abrasive. I tend to over complicate things though. And I have my moments but overall I know I have a lot of room for growth. But that’s for after game.

Talk to me about shellyc. I think solving shellyc really helps this game. Because I see her as Town, I do. A lot of early takes, and most eminently reasonable (and ones I largely agree with). However, I find myself worried about getting pocketed. What do you think?

[Andresvmb]

I think I have 6-7 strong town performances this year, where I have like 4 or 5 strong scum performances this year.

It's all about what have you done lately, though, and my scum game is being highlighted right now because of specific games that finished recently.

Hank is a newer player, Andres. Him and I joined the game after that last newbie, so it might be a bit overwhelming, or he might be busy, which is why I'm willing to give it a little bit, especially considering everyone is having issues with what to do this game.

Good to know about Hank, will keep in mind.

[Andresvmb]

I'll be productive after titus

You do realize this is straight up Scummy right?

[Andresvmb]

I actually do think Dunnstral is the most likely to be scum right now

I called him out earlier, and I didn't like his response, and then he joined my wagon in what could have been a momentum swinging situation.

I ISO’ed there, and I can see what you’re saying. They have one read out (shellyc), and most everything else from them is related to being pushed by nopoint, including their interaction with me trying to discredit nopoint.

I’ll join you there for now, since unwnd is not attracting much attention just yet.

VOTE: Dunnstral

[Andresvmb]

Why would scum say that just there? I'm curious. (I also haven't read since like page 10)

I don’t know why Scum would say that there, but I’m hoping for some more juicy takes from you is all. You’re just openly slacking and it’s bothering me in a game that clearly needs people to spring into action.

[Andresvmb]

Also, you were saying I don't run games as town, but I specifically run games as scum (one because it helps) because I have a tendency to powertown.

I prefer playing troll town, then popping out of nowhere late game and solving, but I never get to do that anymore.

Yeah that’s what I’ve seen from you, is true. Look I don’t know what your alignment is, but provided I don’t get overly Scummy vibes from you (and I haven’t), I think bouncing my thoughts off of you is helpful.

[Andresvmb]

So at the tail end of page 11 is this impenetrable conversation between andres and unwnd that I just can't read into at all. Every time I try I end up putting my phone down.

This actually made me laugh. It’s really great shade.

[Andresvmb]

I think you're overreacting to light pressure and you may be a type of player who wants to lecture but not vice-versa lol

i do very bad against pressure as either alignment.

I'm pretty sure andres can back that up.

anyways can you read my *bullet points* and respond if you like people pushing that way

I’ll say this - I have seen shellyc reveal themselves as Scum under pressure, but not to the point where I thought it was completely obvious (in that newbie game we played). I think you enjoy directing the game, without having to endure too much suspicion. That’s where you probably do best (as either alignment). The one time we played as Town both of us you left the game completely under some pressure. I don’t know if that was directly attributable to the pressure or you were just bored - you would have to clarify.

[Andresvmb]

Main 3 (Nopoint notmaf Hank) with flavor and you as distraction or potential scum if i'm wrong about one in main 3

I really don’t see this solve so I’m very intrigued by it. You have a completely null slot in Hank, Not_Mafia (who I will grant you could be Scum, very difficult to tell for me this early), and nopoint? Huh.

[Andresvmb]

Main 3 (Nopoint notmaf Hank) with flavor and you as distraction or potential scum if i'm wrong about one in main 3

I really don’t see this solve so I’m very intrigued by it. You have a completely null slot in Hank, Not_Mafia (who I will grant you could be Scum, very difficult to tell for me this early), and nopoint? Huh.

So you basically think that the Scum have for the most part very little active presence and are letting the Town just cannibalize themselves, yeah?

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

Titus I might understand the context behind this, but do you have any reasoning you want to share for the vote?

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

Titus I might understand the context behind this, but do you have any reasoning you want to share for the vote?

[Andresvmb]

Ugh I hate the double post. Apologies.

[Andresvmb]

@Titus, can you walk me through your vote on shellyc? I’m trying to figure out if there’s anything I’m missing.

@Titus I’m also still waiting on this.

[Andresvmb]

@Not_Mafia any reason for the vote?

[Andresvmb]

I should have expected that response.

I’m not seeing it, so I’m trying to get more than justifications based on the self-vote play. Flavor clearly posted reads - anything that raised some flags from that?

[Andresvmb]

^that’s an open question to anybody on the wagon.

[Andresvmb]

Clearly not everybody on the Flavor wagon is Scum. There’s something fascinating about nopoint + Dunn + unwnd all agreeing that this vote makes sense based on how the beginning of the day played out. Titus has been largely absent so I don’t really read too much into that vote to be totally honest (it could be Scum piling on, particularly if Flavor is Town, but it could easily be Town that is going through the motions too), and Not_Mafia will do their thing (I’m not getting the same positive vibes as last game so I don’t know if Not_Mafia is Town, but the reputation is there for a reason). So what’s going on?

[Andresvmb]

Everyone's vote on me is essentially naked "he scummy"

F-2, should I claim?

You should wait.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

Titus I might understand the context behind this, but do you have any reasoning you want to share for the vote?

No. I am still in RVS. I haven't read at all and want to get wagons going. Since rationing my meds, my reads have gotten worse too so I am letting others lead.

Claiming to still be treating the game as if it were in RVS when you’re pushing the top wagon closer to execution and there’s this many pages of content seems rather difficult to believe wouldn’t you agree? If you haven’t read, why would you put such a dangerous vote down? I’m struggling to understand the logic here.

[Andresvmb]

@Titus I think you’re being somewhat unfair in your response. I would note that you hadn’t really clarified the why you hadn’t read but decided to vote anyway until your last post. I don’t question people’s real life motivations/excuses. That’s a dangerous road to go down and I assume that people play in good faith unless it’s shown otherwise (and convincingly so). You will note that your vote has been followed by a quasi-naked vote from Not_Mafia, and there doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of activity even though Flavor is E-2. Your vote also clearly makes Flavor the leading vote getter, instead of making it look more spread out. I didn’t mean dangerous in the sense that Flavor could get randomly executed, but rather that it creates a strong sense of momentum.

[Andresvmb]

anyone else wanna join the notmafia wagon?

I think you should consider moving to a wagon that has a higher chance of success. Though I believe that your push for Not_Mafia is genuine, I can’t see it happening today just yet.

[Andresvmb]

I think we need to stop townreading flavor for mysterious 'he wouldn't play like this' reasons and hold him to a higher standard, that means elimming him when his play is bad/scummy

I don't trust anyone's read on him that has him as town at this point in time

I don’t understand this post at all. Where has anyone uttered a TR of Flavor based on the fact that he wouldn’t “play this way as Scum”? Can you point me to it? Because off the top of my head, I don’t recall anyone really making that argument.

What specifically about his play has been Scummy to you? Outside of him obviously SR’ing you, how do you think his approach is not from a Town POV?

[Andresvmb]

You're townreading someone who has the audacity to fucking self-vote and then play it off like he was trying to initiate town's motivation

Do you think the audacity is scum!AI?

Because I don't

"FL won a game openwolfin'" does not change that

FL has the capacity to openwolf but here I see it as being much less image-concerned and more spontaeous/rough

@Dunnstral, the closest anyone has gotten to potentially aligning with what you’re saying from skimming through a few ISOs would be this. And even then, this isn’t really focused on what Flavor would do as Scum, but it looks to me more of a theoretical point about how Town don’t seem to care about how they come across, and want to solve the game, and how what Flavor was doing up to that point fit that idea. I can keep looking, but I think your post is more of an attempt at discouraging people from TR’ing Flavor more generally, and using it as an excuse to SR anybody that defends Flavor.

Look I’m fine with being wrong. Flavor is hard to sort. But I haven’t really seen anything particularly convincing.

[Andresvmb]

When you get far past enough knowing not to self vote, you reach an area where it starts to be okay again.

Noting that I only have 2 completed games with Andres, and both of them I was scum, one off site, so that’s an interesting thing to comment on my town game that I’m slightly FoSing.

Just for fun I’ll make a comment about this. You know how I can tell that you’re a better Scum player than Town? Even if we haven’t played that much together? Because having bad reads in a game does not get you executed. People expect the performance and the arrogance. But they don’t seem to be waiting around for you to guide the Town (as Town). It’s why people remember you as a dangerous Scum player above anything else.

It doesn’t mean you’re bad Town btw. I just think it’s obvious where your strengths are.

Eh, people used to say "if Flavor hasn't solved the game by Day 3, he's scum."

I have purposefully dumbed my early town game down so I can make it to later in the game. Few years back, I went through a phase where I got n1 killed like every single game I was in, and I hate that.

I'm just more obnoxious when I'm town, and I go after everyone, and flip reads a lot, so people don't like it.

But I will admit, my scum game, and knowledge of what scum should and shouldn't do, has stepped up over the past couple of years, so I will concede I am a better scum player than town player.

I still think I had Top 2 maybe Top 3 town year this year, I just don't have a popular town style right now.

I also went through multiple phases of rolling scum multiple times in a row and simultaneously, so I had more of an opportunity to show that side in the past few years.

I think I have 6-7 strong town performances this year, where I have like 4 or 5 strong scum performances this year.

It's all about what have you done lately, though, and my scum game is being highlighted right now because of specific games that finished recently.

Hank is a newer player, Andres. Him and I joined the game after that last newbie, so it might be a bit overwhelming, or he might be busy, which is why I'm willing to give it a little bit, especially considering everyone is having issues with what to do this game.

Uhm, I think the idea that Flavor “sells his Town game short” doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.

[Andresvmb]

You should also update that argument following the fact that Flavor actually released a full list of reads following your post.

[Andresvmb]

andres do you townread FL?

whats your read on unwnd?

I’m not ready to stick my neck out completely for Flavor. But you would agree that Flavor is a good player as Town and not just Scum yeah? So I am of the opinion that we should at least try and give Flavor some time to actually show their alignment and not just execute there because of a self-vote. We have enough players with a sufficiently strong reputation I think that we can quickly turn against Flavor if necessary.

I find it hard to believe that there’s this many people that are quite certain that Flavor is Scum when I’ve literally come out of several games where Flavor was impossible to eliminate even when Flavor was openly pushing a narrative that defied several events that had occurred throughout the game.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t TR unwnd. And I don’t find the last series of posts particularly helpful. It’s just rehashing an argument that honestly doesn’t match with stuff that’s happened immediately before and after and there’s not even an attempt at re-evaluating. I don’t like that. It’s close to tunneling the person with the most votes.

[Andresvmb]

@unwnd I feel some frustration at the fact that there’s just not enough engagement from several players this game. But I’m still trying my best to put out reasonable reads. I just have a few relatively soft reads, and nothing I would fully go to war for. My strongest TR is probably shelly, but I’ve been fooled before so I want to see how this game goes before I solidify that.

[Andresvmb]

the fact only like Shelly stated anything about my wall post likely means I have strong reads considering not only did I actively do more work, my wagon sped up afterwards.

I thought your wall of reads was reasonable but I’m also biased since it looks like I’m your strongest TR.

[Andresvmb]

^I would maybe disagree on nopoint though. I don’t see the slot as Scummy. I thought that acknowledgment that the slip maybe wasn’t that to be a Towny response.

[Andresvmb]

I’ll comment later tonight on what’s been posted since I was last here.

In general though, I’m not particularly hopeful that the result today will be that we hit Scum to be totally honest. There’s too many disinterested naked votes and not enough discussion.

[Andresvmb]

Sorry for being away I got distracted with a few things over the weekend.

I’m fine with my vote for now. I think there’s something for sure to be figured out between Dunn/Flavor. I also find that there’s a few people dancing around it, and more than a few attempts at moving it away, which means this hits one way or the other I think. Which explains why I’m comfortable sitting here.

[Andresvmb]

Titus, Town Cop Enabler, was killed Night 1!

I claim cop

I can see that.

If you don’t get a CC I will trust that this is true and you are Town. However, this also means that you performed a check last night yeah? Who did you target?

Just thinking strategically, anybody who was voting a vanity wagon yesterday deserves scrutiny. I think the Scum intentionally wanted to avoid having the Town actually consolidate, which we need to do a better job of.

I’ll put my vote here for now - VOTE: shellyc

[Andresvmb]

To elaborate on how i find titus/dunn/N_M scummy

titus' vote on FL was to "get momentum" despite a few wagons competing for momentum. titus did not explain why he picked the FL wagon.

1. Titus [0]:
2. Andresvmb [2]: geraintm#33, JohnnyFarrar#232
3. unwnd [1]: shellyc#292
4. Flavor Leaf [3]: nopointinactingup#293, unwnd#339, Dunnstral#343
5. Hank Spankems [0]:
6. shellyc [1]: Titus#172
7. PlusJOYED [0]:
8. Not_Mafia [2]: Hank Spankems#69, PlusJOYED#365
9. JohnnyFarrar [0]:
10. geraintm [0]:
11. TheFuzzyLogic99 [0]:
12. Dunnstral [2]: Flavor Leaf#381, Andresvmb#403
13. nopointinactingup [1]: Not_Mafia#157

this was the latest VC when titus posted his vote. it is clear that multiple players had 2-3 votes.

N_M quickly jumped onto the FL wagon bringing it to E-3 soon after titus had voted. the close proximity of these votes is out-of-place.

dunn voted FL for reasons basically voiced as a "policy" for "bad/scummy play". the bad part seems a bit like preparing for a town!FL flip and explaining "well he played bad"

which brings FL to E-2.

these votes which lack real conviction makes me really dislike this wagon.

i wont compromise on FL

i agree with the sentiment that N_M is a "policy launch" and scum can easily jump on a town!N_M

i'd give titus a shot for further contributions tbh

I would launch dunn today. as well as {nopoint, johnny}

I think shellyc has exposed herself with these posts. I think shellyc should be flipped so we can clear everybody suspected here.

[Andresvmb]

At the same time, it’s rather odd that the Scum would pick Titus as the kill. Titus was barely participating, and the only person they seemed to be gunning for was shellyc. There is a possibility here that we’re being played. Having said that, shellyc actively saying that they would look to join Dunn, but then end up on her own vanity wagon and failing to consolidate was not a good look. Frankly, I didn’t realize that no majority meant no one died. I would have played with more urgency towards the end of the day if I had seen that.

[Andresvmb]

At the same time, it’s rather odd that the Scum would pick Titus as the kill. Titus was barely participating, and the only person they seemed to be gunning for was shellyc. There is a possibility here that we’re being played. Having said that, shellyc actively saying that they would look to join Dunn, but then end up on her own vanity wagon and failing to consolidate was not a good look. Frankly, I didn’t realize that no majority meant no one died. I would have played with more urgency towards the end of the day if I had seen that.

You seriously thought the person with the most votes would end up dead??

I am not sure if you’re being sarcastic or not, but yes I tend to play with those rules. Needing a majority for an execution early tends not to work out so well, but it gets easier over time.

[Andresvmb]

I feel like while it does implicate shelly from end of day play, it's too obvious for shelly to kill titus. That's not really shelly's scum style at least in a vacuum. Shelly usually goes for PRs and is confident in their dayplay that they'd go another target. Rather I think scum is trying to get us on shelly.
Following that I think nopoint is more likely since they were on each other. I also think there's very likely at least 1 scum in the lurkers from end of day 1 or the inactives.

There’s no such thing as too Scummy to be Scum. If the end of day play makes shellyc look bad, then we shouldn’t shy away from looking there closely.

[Andresvmb]

^Also that logic that the person that shellyc was on is more likely to be Scum makes no sense. Nopoint was on a wagon that had a shot at going through. shellyc was sitting alone on a wagon that was not going to happen, which clearly robs the Town of information. Just because they were cross-voting and you TR Shelly doesn’t mean that nopoint is Scum. Why wouldn’t you instead trust Titus’ voice more, who you know was Town and suspected Shelly?

[Andresvmb]

I’m not saying Titus was absolutely right and Shellyc is surely Scum. I just came out of a game where Titus was horrendously wrong repeatedly. But precisely for that reason, the Scum could think that they can get away with taking out Titus with few consequences.

[Andresvmb]

Why so pessimistic geraitnm? There’s still a lot left on this day and some legitimate avenues of inquiry are being pursued.

I don’t think nopoint is Scum. And I TR Johnny now. So I will continue to vote where I’m at. Sorry shelly. If I need to consolidate onto Flavor I might just do that, but again I continue to be skeptical there to some extent.

[Andresvmb]

Thinking...

I doubt that Titus was killed (mainly) bc she was on scum. She might of been. My thinking is this because of the lack of a kill yesterday. Titus is a dangerous town player. It seems that she was killed because of her skills. I am prob wrong but I dont think scum feel very threatened atm. This is bc the disunity of the town

@Fuzzy, I have a different view of how Scum tend to conduct NKs. I don’t think the Scum eliminate the players that are just strong in a vacuum, though of course that plays somewhat of a role. I am more of the mentality that you eliminate for one of two reasons: (i) game state control, or (ii) immediate threats. So of course you try and nuke PRs, as they are a threat, but also anybody that has an actual good sense of who is what, and will be listened to.

If you think Titus is a strong player, then why wouldn’t you also assume that they could have been right about what they were pushing?

[Andresvmb]

Spooky Johnny here worrying everybody.

What’s your solve right now?

[Andresvmb]

Also Hank hasn’t posted in 5 days, and from ISO’ing there (very little content, so you should go take a look), they were happy to just go along with the wrong Town view that was forming yesterday.

If you asked me, I would say Hank is trying to play as deep Scum. The other tell I’m seeing is that they keep saying that they’ll contribute, and to give them time, but then they don’t, and just keep finding excuses. I’ve done that before as Scum.

[Andresvmb]

@Fuzzy, geraintm, I suggest you begin putting votes down and actually making your views known, because you’re making the game harder than it has to be. Fuzzy you didn’t even vote yesterday.

[Andresvmb]

fwiw i now sorta want to reverse my unwnd read

I feel like unwnd wants to strongarm the gamestate here

@unwnd talk to me about this post. Are you really all that sure about your view of the game? You seem to be partly defending two players {Shellyc, Flavor} that are more than happy to vote for you and throw you under the bus, because they post a lot? Quantity of posting for the two of them is not indicative of anything at all. Particularly for those two.

[Andresvmb]

Dunn
Not Mafia

Geraint
Andres

Shelly
Hank
Johnny

Plusjoyed
Fuzzy
Nopoint
Unwnd

Probably where I'm at.

I'd say at least 2 scum in bottom group, possible scum in that shelly, hank, johnny. But all 3 could be in that bottom.

@unwnd remember, Flavor is saying that all of the Scum are in {plusJOYED, Fuzzy, nopoint, you}. Do you buy that? Because I don’t. Hank should be in everybody’s suspicious or null pile, for example. plusJOYED is actually trying even if I think they have a few things wrong.

[Andresvmb]

I wanna go nopoint I'd settle for johny or gera

I think you’re wrong. If this was correct, Dunn would have been executed, not Titus. Titus was hammering away at shellyc (even wanted a flash wagon there), and Flavor/Dunn. There was no gain for the Team you are putting forward in eliminating Titus, who wasn’t even a PR (just made the Cop inoperable, and able to reveal their results).

I’m not going to speculate too much about NKs - sometimes they are just made to confuse the Town (I’ve tried that when things are desperate). But I don’t see what you’re pushing. And I think Johnny is Town so there’s that too.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway, somebody talk to me.

[Andresvmb]

770 - unwnd I can’t fully understand what you’re saying here, so I’ll ask some questions.

Who do you think is pushing pre-determined executions? And who are you saying has reads without substance? If you’re speaking about my reads, I very much explained my read on Shellyc towards the beginning of today. Are you complaining about my TRs? I have made some arguments about nopoint before in D1. None of that has really changed.

If you’re speaking about Shellyc, she doesn’t have a choice. She had 3 people as Scum, one of which was NK’ed, one who claimed Cop (with no CC), and the other one who was the result of a check.

I also don’t get what being stubborn has anything to do with it. Flavor and Shellyc are stubborn, yes. So am I. So is Titus. What’s your point?

If you ask me, I think Flavor needs to more conclusively demonstrate why nopoint makes sense as the execution. There were some arguments about how the votes stacked up, but it’s an inscrutable argument because it has to assume that Flavor is Town, and no one knows that but Flavor. If you noticed, Flavor was voted yesterday by a Confirmed Town, and by Dunn/Not_Mafia at one point. Which is why Flavor is throwing shade to the only other person on their wagon. Again, I’m not buying it.

[Andresvmb]

^see 720. And that was about you unwnd, not nopoint. That last paragraph.

[Andresvmb]

Well okay I highlighted a few posts that I thought were bad. But the best comment in terms of how Shellyc is playing has been made by nopoint in 561. Johnny also thought it made sense. From looking back, it’s one of those posts that if you read more carefully, you quickly realize it probably comes from Town. That’s informing my perspective a bit.

I can only explain why I wasn’t more aggressive about getting consensus yesterday - because I didn’t realize it was a majority only elimination type game. This is my least favorite type of structure for a game actually, because you typically have to convince way too many people about a particular course of action and it is quite difficult to get a Scum execution this way. I mean, I think plus is Town for example (their pursuit of the truth strikes me as genuine). I also think they’re horribly wrong. Not uncommon for Town to disagree like this.

So yeah I don’t think having pre-determined eliminations in mind has anything to do with the outcome yesterday. I would more describe it as simple Town apathy. I’m still confused as to why you think that someone attracting a lot of attention cannot be Scum. It’s almost as if you think that Scum are so hard to find typically that they never attract attention early in the game. This is obviously not true.

[Andresvmb]

Like I don’t think this is *that* complicated either. Shellyc was pushing multiple players yesterday that are now either Confirmed Town or very likely Town mechanically. Pushing a Town player in and of itself is whatever - we can all be wrong. But the mechanical part of it - that was not planned. And so that is obviously forcing me to focus on Shelly again. The weirdest part (and Titus spoke about this too) is that shellyc had a universe where she thought {Not_Mafia, Dunnstral, Titus} could be Scum. But her vote to end the day was on nopoint. That clearly demonstrates that Shellyc wasn’t eager to compromise and consolidate, which is Scummy behavior in context.

[Andresvmb]

You’ll also remember that I had Shelly as my top TR yesterday. I don’t know where you’re getting the idea that my pre-conceived notions pointed to Shelly Scum, or that the argument I made was that Shelly’s meta pointed to her being Scum. But maybe you could point to where I did.

[Andresvmb]

Sorry guys I’m back. I’ll catch up and have some thoughts tonight. I should have put myself on VLA on the weekend.

[Andresvmb]

Also @plusJOYED I could buy your theory about the NK and Shellyc being framed. I need to think about that some more.

[Andresvmb]

@Andres - You just saw me take out threats nonstop in a game, why would I make my wagon flip more townies on my own wagon?

Which is why Flavor is throwing shade to the only other person on their wagon. Again, I’m not buying it.

like why?

Why wouldn't I?

Consider me confirmed town for a second, give me 2 reasons why I wouldn't, andres.

No I get it. I understand why you would perceive the game the way that you are. I would just a different argument. I can’t be convinced about something if the only way to get me to see something is by literally knowing what you know. Does that make sense?

[Andresvmb]

^use a different argument.*

[Andresvmb]

Okay this game has sprung back to life. I will actually put in some work tonight - I’m just more distracted than usual around the holidays.

[Andresvmb]

Okay screw work around the holidays. I’m off now - so I’ll actually be around to post. I fell asleep reading and then couldn’t get away from work. But now that I’m done until next week I can focus.

[Andresvmb]

I’m going to catch up on some sleep first. So talk to you all in some hours.

[Andresvmb]

I’m around the next several hours and doing a deep dive.

[Andresvmb]

Honestly, I think part of my apathy as of late is that this feels like a very extended D1, and after a while it gets tiring to not get any clarity. It almost started feeling like you’re going in circles. But listen I’ll give it an honest try and see what I find.

[Andresvmb]

@Flavor, for what it’s worth, I think the shellyc/Noraa slot is Town. Like almost always. I am buying plusJOYED’s early theory about the slot being setup. If anything, plus is Town and worth listening to here.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: nopoint

I’ll settle here for now, come back once I’m fully caught up.

[Andresvmb]

@Flavor, for what it’s worth, I think the shellyc/Noraa slot is Town. Like almost always. I am buying plusJOYED’s early theory about the slot being setup. If anything, plus is Town and worth listening to here.

Okay I posted this after reading that fight between Noraa and Flavor in detail. I had seen some back and forth but I didn’t know it got so aggressive.

The one thing that caught my eye that was interesting to me Flavor and you should pay attention to, is the fact that nopoint made a concerted effort to discredit your Claim. Or at least argue that it could still be compatible with Scum.

Flavor I was defending your play from D1 because I didn’t feel it was Scummy. I’m a bit concerned that you might be shoving Noraa aside and aggressively attacking the slot so they lose credibility. But beyond that, it seemed quite personal, and a bit unnecessary? You know I have respect for your game, but waving your experience in people’s faces doesn’t make for a pleasant in-game experience.

[Andresvmb]

@Flavor, for what it’s worth, I think the shellyc/Noraa slot is Town. Like almost always. I am buying plusJOYED’s early theory about the slot being setup. If anything, plus is Town and worth listening to here.

Okay I posted this after reading that fight between Noraa and Flavor in detail. I had seen some back and forth but I didn’t know it got so aggressive.

The one thing that caught my eye that was interesting to me Flavor and you should pay attention to, is the fact that nopoint made a concerted effort to discredit your Claim. Or at least argue that it could still be compatible with Scum.

Flavor I was defending your play from D1 because I didn’t feel it was Scummy. I’m a bit concerned that you might be shoving Noraa aside and aggressively attacking the slot so they lose credibility. But beyond that, it seemed quite personal, and a bit unnecessary? You know I have respect for your game, but waving your experience in people’s faces doesn’t make for a pleasant in-game experience.

[Andresvmb]

Andres, I need you. I'm so triggered this game.

I’m here!

[Andresvmb]

is that 4 votes on Noraa?

Meh.

Plusjoyed probably scum, Johnny probably town.

There’s one thing about plusJOYED that I’ll say. I recall feeling very disconnected with plusJOYED when we were both Town, and we exchanged SRs, and I also remember thinking that they were very wrong. I was partly right, but overly harsh. I’m finding myself this game wanting to trust plus. Which maybe should give me pause? Like plus is making some sense, but it’s also a decently strong defense of shellyc/Noraa that I’m having trouble fighting against. Though it’s also based on an interpretation of the NK, which isn’t reliable.

I’ll agree that if Noraa flips Scum, then look at plus and Johnny is probably Town. I think you’re Town.

I don’t trust nopoint’s attacks on your Claim in particular. I would be fine with nopoint making arguments about your playstyle more, or how your perspective doesn’t make sense. But it’s a very narrow focus, and one which helps avoid contradictions or too much scrutiny.

[Andresvmb]

I’m like having all these thoughts all flow to me at the same time.

Geraintm has been too useless. Plus is making too much sense. Oh and I’m with you that there’s something off about Fuzzy. Admitting to trying to coast don’t give me positive vibes. You’re seeing it as Town. I’m weakening my read there for sure.

[Andresvmb]

I’m still catching up, but if I had to organize the game, I would say I have it something like this:

Town
{Titus [Town Cop Enabler]}
Strong Lean Town
{Dunnstral [Cop Claim], Not_Mafia [Checked Town]}
Lean Town
{plusJOYED, Flavor Leaf [Vig Enabler Claim], Hank Spankems/Insanoflex}
Slight Lean Town
{shellyc/Noraa}
Neutral
{Geraintm}
Slight Lean Scum
{unwnd}
Lean Scum
{nopointinactingup, TheFuzzyLogic99, JohnnyFarrar}

Now, the thing about this is that you could flip the Lean Town row with the Lean Scum row, and the game still makes sense.

[Andresvmb]

Nopoint's reads and progression on me all game have been fake.

I'm going to bring it all the way back to early Day 1.

He shaded Dunnstral poorly, as did I.

Then I played my bait, and Nopoint's literally the player that got caught from my bait earlier.

I guarantee you that Nopoint is scum, and I have been saying Nopoint scum since Day 1.

I have been pushing Nopoint as my top 2 scumreads all day, and actually, I'm easing up on Unwnd a bit because of Noraa/Nopoint.

Nopoint disappeared from the game when Noraa and I were fighting, yet Plusjoyed isn't talking about that.

This turn makes perfect sense btw if Noraa was scum with FL

Vote: Noraa

This is a Scummy vote. This is essentially shade by association? Do I have that right?

[Andresvmb]

I don't think noraa is scum
I've thought it over, I can't believe I missed FL claiming vig enabler. This is def a town FL move imo. Now this makes a lot more sense.

I'm the vig, I shot titus n1. No point in really hiding if the enabler is out there. I thought titus was scum trying to sidetrack with a flashwagon on town shelly, I was wrong. I'm guessing scum did too. I seriously believe there is a maf conspiracy with maf team framing shelly for titus kill; this is not scum!shelly's MO at all, and shelly/noraa is town.

I will be shooting johny tonight.

Okay haha now THIS I hadn’t seen.

Now, Flavor has tied themselves to their Partner as Scum mechanically before. Do I think that’s what’s happening here in order to tilt the game in their favor? No. And plusJOYED was under limited scrutiny, so this is mighty unnecessary. HOWEVER, the fact that there was overlap between the Vig and the NK is, I have to say it, very convenient. It eliminates the chance that Flavor’s claim is verified by seeing two executions overnight, unless plus your role is not 1-Shot. If it’s not, then I look forward to the confirmation later.

This also makes nopoint look worse, I think.

[Andresvmb]

^dumb, you already said you would be shooting Johnny.

Okay so I’m fine with my vote.

[Andresvmb]

despite andres less activity I still TR him
-----
TRs I'm taking vig suggestions from (unordered)
insano
noraa
dunn
FL
andres

notmafia has been so out of it I'd rather not let them aim no offense.

I would do Fuzzy. I think we’ll get more content out of Johnny. But I think Johnny makes sense from what I’ve read.

[Andresvmb]

I am a watcher enabler. I believed FL’s claim because I knew it was an enabler-packed game. I think he’s scum because there’s no way all 3 enablers are town.

N1 I was neighborized by Johnny. Anyone who thinks we are sus can volunteer to be neighorized tonight.

Noraa it’s a shame you’re scum, would have loved a K-pop qt

Neighborizer could be pocketing you - just saying. It’s a weak clear at best.

And between Vig and Watcher, I’m going to go for Vig as more likely Town. Outside of the fact that plus seems very Towny to me.

[Andresvmb]

I don't know where your vote lies on nopoint yet you entertain the idea of johnny being scum andres?

I hadn’t even parsed through all the claims when I made my vote.

[Andresvmb]

at this point a mass claim is the way we should go and those who dont should be killed or vigged imho

I would argue this is coming from a Scum perspective.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: TheFuzzyLogic99

[Andresvmb]

^placeholder until I’m done reading (I’m on Page 60), and I figure out where the votes are.

[Andresvmb]

I personally think we need to out the watcher...imho

nah I don't think they exist

I agree.

[Andresvmb]

Shellyc was banned? Okay that explains a few things.

[Andresvmb]

maybe
andres is my strongest non-mechanical (as in roles/claims not being a thing) TRs personally.
But POE is tightening for me
I think andres, Noraa are dayplay wise town
I think either nopoint or johny is town and other maf
Notmafia and dunn gotta be town
FL is town

that leaves insano, gera, uwnd, or fuzzy as the 2 remaining scum slots in my book. I think uwnd is probably scum, he's been trying to slow things down as of late and talking himself up. I'll probably shoot him if nopoint flips red today.

if I had to guess a solve it'd be nopoint/uwnd/insano.

On play, andres looks town, yeah. But I went back and noticed he was making some pretty strained defenses of nopoint, and for all his posting looks town, he hasn't really driven the game in any direction, and I feel as though today he's started to coast quite a bit. Just a theory that's contingent partly on nopoint's flip. I know people don't trust me because of Hank's play, and I don't really have a problem getting flipped at some point, just want to give people something to consider after I flip.

This is probably Scum btw. Insano has nonsensically been trying to tie me to nopoint, and is softly discrediting me.

[Andresvmb]

1615 is all levels of terrible. Not saying it’s coming from Scum. It’s just bad.

[Andresvmb]

Okay I’m caught up. I’m actually relatively optimistic. I think we have a decent chance of solving this game.

Some thoughts:
There being an Enabler does not mean that the Role is present. It could be a distraction. Since it fits with the structure of the game however, it is possible that they are all Town.
I was heavily discounting my initial read of shellyc/Noraa coming into today because I trusted plusJOYED’s POV. But maybe I’m discounting my thoughts too much. It also helps that I TR Flavor, and think they’re right.
I don’t appreciate what Insanoflex is doing. I wasn’t the only person not “driving the game” in a particular direction. No one was. That’s why there wasn’t a majority D1. It’s a silly argument. I also have a feeling as to why it’s happening - with all the Claims, the pool is narrowing. Pushing suspicion onto a player in the unclaimed pool makes sense from a Scum perspective.
There is a world where nopoint is Town, and unwnd is taking advantage of the situation as Scum.

[Andresvmb]

For all I know, I can’t ready Fuzzy for shit, and Johnny is just Town.

[Andresvmb]

I’m not voting amongst {Dunn, Not_Mafia, plusJOYED, Flavor} today. I think geraintm has been too weak and distracted. I’ve seen more fire from them even when they were unwilling to vote any which way.

@plus, I think if nopoint flips Town, consider unwnd instead of Johnny.

[Andresvmb]

A {Noraa, unwnd, Insano} Scum Team would be interesting.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Insanoflex

[Andresvmb]

Updated view of the game:

Town
{Titus [Town Cop Enabler]}
Strong Lean Town
{Dunnstral [Cop Claim], Not_Mafia [Checked Town]}
Lean Town
{plusJOYED [Vig Claim, Shot Titus N1], Flavor Leaf [Vig Enabler]}
Slight Lean Town
{JohnnyFarrar [Complex Neighborizer]}
Neutral
{Geraintm, TheFuzzyLogic99 [Vanilla Town Claim]}
Slight Lean Scum
{Unwnd, shellyc/Noraa, nopointinactingup [Watcher Enabler]}
Lean Scum
{Hank Spankems/Insanoflex [1-Shot Loyal Bodyguard Claim]}

[Andresvmb]

I moved Johnny aggressively because I think I was wrong there. Johnny is being passive. But they have consistently been questioning shellyc/Noraa. When I asked for a solve for example, they had Hank/Shellyc. They clearly have some ability to Neighborize. I don’t think both Johnny/nopoint are Scum. I think that would be strange.

I’m having a real hard time reading nopoint. Discrediting Flavor’s Claim was a bad look, and even more so now that plus is claiming Vig. But there’s something off about there being so much agreement about nopoint being the execution. Either there’s a lot of bussing, or the Scum are getting away with something here.

[Andresvmb]

Alright well it’s Christmas and it’s 3am where I’m at. I’ll check this in the morning. You have my views now, and I’m caught up.

[Andresvmb]

1676 - this is some selective nonsense. It can’t possibly be genuine sorting, can it? And you’re tying me pre-flip, and making that the primary reason you begin to chip away at why people see me as Town. Don’t worry, I see you.

[Andresvmb]

is that 4 votes on Noraa?

Meh.

Plusjoyed probably scum, Johnny probably town.

There’s one thing about plusJOYED that I’ll say. I recall feeling very disconnected with plusJOYED when we were both Town, and we exchanged SRs, and I also remember thinking that they were very wrong. I was partly right, but overly harsh. I’m finding myself this game wanting to trust plus. Which maybe should give me pause? Like plus is making some sense, but it’s also a decently strong defense of shellyc/Noraa that I’m having trouble fighting against. Though it’s also based on an interpretation of the NK, which isn’t reliable.

I’ll agree that if Noraa flips Scum, then look at plus and Johnny is probably Town. I think you’re Town.

I don’t trust nopoint’s attacks on your Claim in particular. I would be fine with nopoint making arguments about your playstyle more, or how your perspective doesn’t make sense. But it’s a very narrow focus, and one which helps avoid contradictions or too much scrutiny.

uh no. you don't shade conftown.

Your last sentence is weird. It wasn’t shade. I’m debating whether I should trust plusJOYED’s argument about you, or whether I should trust my own intuition. Even before I caught the Claim, I’ve been consistently thinking that plus was Town. And I always re-evaluate.

And just so we’re clear, plus is not technically Confirmed Town. They’re like 99% and I’m okay losing to a potential gambit of an Enabler / Vig Claim (plus and Flavor would have to be a Team), but until we see an overnight execution of Scum, or even just two executions overnight, there’s nothing to be certain about. With what we know though, I don’t think plus is Scum. But it isn’t Confirmed.

[Andresvmb]

I’m like having all these thoughts all flow to me at the same time.

Geraintm has been too useless. Plus is making too much sense. Oh and I’m with you that there’s something off about Fuzzy. Admitting to trying to coast don’t give me positive vibes. You’re seeing it as Town. I’m weakening my read there for sure.

Oh this is actually scary. I think fuzzy admitted to coasting in their last scum game :/
I need to actually go back and check this.

I’ll just quote you the post that caught my attention.
Check 859.

However, from re-reading Fuzzy’s ISO - I think the fact that Fuzzy defended both Dunn and Not_Mafia in the early game (see 549, 556) is a positive. Separately, Fuzzy narrowed down their choice based on a vote count analysis today that I can’t quite understand, since the logic isn’t completely laid out, so I don’t know what to make of that yet. But there’s an interesting switch in the way Fuzzy is viewing nopoint, going from pushing there aggressively (1314) to placing nopoint amongst their strongest TRs (1579). If nopoint flips Town, this is worth scrutinizing, simply because it would be a clever way of getting Town cred. It’s also possible that Fuzzy is just Town and arriving at the right conclusions constantly, excluding the earlier push for Flavor (even if you take into account that Fuzzy was willing to give Flavor time to make themselves more obvious).

[Andresvmb]

Unless you think the scum team is flavor/Plus/___, plus is a vig and vigs are conftown.

If plusJOYED’s claim depended on practically anybody else claiming Vig Enabler, then I probably wouldn’t even consider a universe where they could both be Scum. I’m just saying - it’s not

impossible

just yet. You play with Flavor enough times, and you begin to realize that you need to be open minded about most claims, while keeping the most likely universe firmly in view.

However, and this is also important, it’s not a meaningful consideration at all in my existing view of the game. So I don’t want to overly focus on this. I think the Vig Claim is true and they’re both Town. What else would you like for me to say? It just seemed to me like you were trying to shade me unnecessarily for a debate that wasn’t fundamentally about whether plus was Town or not. I can absolutely disagree with a Confirmed Town.

[Andresvmb]

The possibility of Johnny scum does exist, I originally thought neighboriZers are confirmed town role, even when it is not Johnny has not tried to influence me to do anything and I think that’s town af

This is actually useful to know. I believe you’ll be flipped - if there’s anything Johnny has said in the chat that you would like to put out there for the rest of us as potentially useful information, now is your chance.

[Andresvmb]

Also why wouldn’t I discredit FL’s claim as an enabler myself. 3 town enabler is very unlikely to me

You know, I can understand this to a limited extent. But these Normal games do have a lot of Roles from what I can gather. If anything they consistently end up being Town sided. And the particular Claim also fit neatly with the structure that is known. All I’m saying is that I think you went too hard to discredit Flavor when in my view the Claim makes Flavor more likely to be Town, not less. Nevertheless, being skeptical of anything Flavor claims is a Town impulse haha so there’s that too.

[Andresvmb]

Also, purely based on wagon construction, nopoint is going to flip Town. Anybody here really believe that we could get Scum without Dunn/Not_Mafia voting there? I don’t. This is a crappy compromise that yeah, might result in Scum. But most likely won’t.

[Andresvmb]

I'm voting nopoint I think

You’re listed as voting unwnd right now in the last vote count that was published. Unless I read that incorrectly.

[Andresvmb]

^Yeah, see 1669. That also means that nopoint has been hammered if I’m not wrong.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: nopo merry Christmas other friendo

This is the hammer.

[Andresvmb]

Oh. Shit.

You should clarify with the Mod whether you meant to hammer, and then the Mod can decide what to do about your vote since it was based on a faulty Vote Count. I would argue it’s somewhat unfair, but I’m not Modding the game so it’s not my call.

[Andresvmb]

I still stand by my point about nopoint as a crappy compromise execution, but it’s a bit diluted now that I see Not_Mafia was in fact voting there.

[Andresvmb]

@plus I hate to say it but you should not have listened to me once nopoint flipped Scum. I am clearly off this game.

I was looking back in shame - I think unwnd is Town. I’m also not voting {plus, Flavor}.

VOTE: geraintm

[Andresvmb]

yeah sorry noraa I like ya but I think it's you
FL did a poor job of convincing me, his exchange with you was very TvT to me

Should've shot you instead of fuzzy
VOTE: noraa

I think this slot is Town but I’m honestly not going to stick my neck out so much.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: nopoint

I'm back.

Let's actually do this
VOTE: not maf

And if you don't wanna, tell me why not.

i like Nopointactingup post 548, I aint going to be voting there at all today.
the two votes I have quotes above just look meh at the moment, but likely more important later in the game and their...direction is probably going to be telling for someone.

This is the post I keep going back to.

Yeah, I sucked this whole game to be honest. I defended Scum consistently and now I look like crap for it (I would argue I was setup but whatever it’s not going to do me any good). I did vote nopoint before all the claims. That’s the only defense I can muster. And defended Flavor which should maybe get me some brownie points?

[Andresvmb]

sorry fuzzy
andres told me to I take no responsibility

...why are you listening to andres?

Yeah... sad but true.

[Andresvmb]

I moved Johnny aggressively because I think I was wrong there. Johnny is being passive. But they have consistently been questioning shellyc/Noraa. When I asked for a solve for example, they had Hank/Shellyc. They clearly have some ability to Neighborize. I don’t think both Johnny/nopoint are Scum. I think that would be strange.

I’m having a real hard time reading nopoint. Discrediting Flavor’s Claim was a bad look, and even more so now that plus is claiming Vig. But there’s something off about there being so much agreement about nopoint being the execution. Either there’s a lot of bussing, or the Scum are getting away with something here.

I also don’t think I was that bad. I mean this makes some sense.

[Andresvmb]

I actually think noraa might be scum at this point
dunn, not mafia, insano, me, FL are all looking pretty town
that leaves andres and noraa.

Insanoflex was tying me to nopoint before the flip. I wouldn’t think Insanoflex is Town, because that looked funky to me. It would be different if you were arguing all that today, I could see that. But doing it before the flip tells me that the strategy was to tie Town to a Scum being sacrificed. I mean c’mon the Scum definitely bussed there. There’s no way a Scum gets executed D2 (which is really an extended D1 here) without Scum playing some role or seeing no other choice. But whatever Insano could very well be Town and I could be wrong I’m not trusting myself too much after all that.

[Andresvmb]

and now I look like crap for it

this is something I say as scum a lot. I find that as town, I never blame myself or ever think of myself as scummy(unless I like big time fucked up)

What you do as Scum has no bearing and how I play as Town or Scum. Not sure why you think that’s relevant.

[Andresvmb]

^on how*

[Andresvmb]

While I again appreciate the humbling I would prefer if you told me what your next options would be

Andres you too, being wrong to me doesn't determine much because there's still plenty of game to get it right. Do you agree with me that there's likely scum on Nopoint's wagon?

Yes absolutely. No question about it. There was too little resistance outside of my posting, and I wasn’t really defending nopoint that hard.

[Andresvmb]

and now I look like crap for it

this is something I say as scum a lot. I find that as town, I never blame myself or ever think of myself as scummy(unless I like big time fucked up)

What you do as Scum has no bearing and how I play as Town or Scum. Not sure why you think that’s relevant.

bc I don't see why town does this type of play ever.

Uhm, what? You’ve never seen a player act defeated after being horribly wrong? Are you serious?

[Andresvmb]

Actually Flavor might have been right I don’t know why I’m defending the shellyc/Noraa slot when they’re acting like this game is unsolvable and everybody not mechanically cleared is Scum. Like that’s ridiculous.

[Andresvmb]

Uhm, what? You’ve never seen a player act defeated after being horribly wrong? Are you serious?

it looks different. town doesn't go "ik I look shit here but believe me"
town goes "Sorry about that guys" and that's generally where it ends.

You’re projecting how you act with how you think every Town should act. It’s bizarre. Town act how they act and we all have different personalities. My posts going back aren’t just bad, it’s embarrassing. I’m consistently defending Scum and digging a hole for myself. The only positive is that I never actually had nopoint as Town, but the posting gets worse the closer we get to executing nopoint. So yeah, again, I don’t know why you think all Town should act the same.

[Andresvmb]

why would you defend someone that's not a TR to begin with?

You’re not serious, right? Unwnd LITERALLY did this at the beginning of D1. There’s multiple reasons why you would do that.

[Andresvmb]

I might have had a stronger sense that someone was Scum, or think that a different course of action is more likely to result in a Town victory. This isn’t like black and white.

[Andresvmb]

I might have had a stronger sense that someone was Scum, or think that a different course of action is more likely to result in a Town victory. This isn’t like black and white.

ur pretty defensive.

I’m not defensive. I feel some shame in my level of play this game and want to make sure we don’t make another mistake.

What I see that you’re doing is Scummy though. You’re interpreting all of my responses in the worst possible way.

[Andresvmb]

I don't necessarily blame you for misreading him, Noraa, because he didn't do anything, you just have to learn that sometimes people not doing much doesn't make him scum. The way he outed was +town though.


...the mafia killed

johnny

?? The literal only reason I could see for that is that one of the claimed PRs is a fakeclaiming goon, or one of the unclaimed players is a mafia PR who doesn't want to claim a PR. Even if I thought he was unlikely scum with nopoint based on their interactions, killing him over a conftown role is

bizarre

.

Frankly this is on point.

Alright my POE is {Insano, shellyc/Noraa, geraintm}. I would exclude unwnd I think nopoint and unwnd don’t make sense as a Team. Mind you, I could be wrong. I also think Insano has good reasons to doubt me and maybe I’m just being self-conscious.

[Andresvmb]

OMGUS

Just so you know, OMGUS isn’t a defense for anything. And it’s not even alignment indicative.

[Andresvmb]

Andres is the only voice of reason in this game. Most of FL's argument is predicated on the fact that he's town and therefore not really reliable. I also don't trust any of his reads, unwd and me are both town.

Amazing stuff

I wouldn’t let a Partner btw tie themselves so obviously to me. It would be kind of stupid. But whatever I am not going to spend too much time with stuff like this.

[Andresvmb]

@plus, when I flip Town, and I will, shoot Noraa. Flavor was right. And I’m right about this one.

[Andresvmb]

I’m not flailing. And your play is sad. You have stopped trying to find Scum and are doing your best to try and bury me. Maybe you’ll get away with it and I’ll be executed. But if you’re not shot you should be executed tomorrow.

[Andresvmb]

oh actually uwnd could be scum too
I think we have a lot of clears at least now

Unless the plan was to distance from the beginning, I can’t see how nopoint/unwnd makes sense as a Team. And I think unwnd was actually genuinely lost for stretches and trying to figure stuff out. Yeah I’ve been wrong a lot but I really don’t see how unwnd makes sense as part of the Team.

[Andresvmb]

I was pretty sure Johnny was town after seeing the scum watcher flip

For what it's worth, I should disclose that Johnny neighborized me before he died, their hood was basically inactive, they greeted each other but didn't say much otherwise, nopoint didn't put any reads there so there isn't anything to learn from it.

Do think the unwnd/nopoint interactions day 1 are less likely to be s/s.

Yeah... okay Insano you’re making a lot of sense actually.

Alright Insano is probably Town, and I’m just bad haha for what it’s worth.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Noraa

I’m not so sure about geraintm - I think the play there has been shocking, and the post I quoted is a bit of a red flag. But the way Noraa has decided to pile on me today is too obvious for me not to call it out. I do think it might be valuable to maybe force this 1v1 to some extent only to make it more obvious for the future.

[Andresvmb]

Also, if Noraa is Scum, Flavor is always Town. Just to make it more obvious. I think shellyc went for the pocket attempt there, as well as with me to a lesser extent. I bought it until the beginning of D2, and shellyc’s exit from the game confused me for a bit. I think Noraa as part of any solve makes sense.

[Andresvmb]

After I saw the flip yesterday and examined during the night I was thinking Geraintm was likely to be scum

Well good we agree about that.

Also, just so you know, I would have definitely pushed to execute a player that was Confirmed Town. Like you or plus would most likely be dead if I was Scum. It narrows the pool too much not to have you guys NK’ed. So that I don’t understand. That’s also why I think Insano is Town - I think the surprise at the choice of NK is justified.

[Andresvmb]

and shellyc’s exit from the game

excuse me?

1) talking about replacements and using it as a reason is stupid as shit
2) no

Fuck off. Argue respectfully or don’t talk to me.

[Andresvmb]

I think we should finish mass claim today

And the reason I say that is I don't think town has any strong power roles remaining, if any at all

Yeah this is fair.

I can start if others agree.

[Andresvmb]

Order would look like:

Andres
Geraint
Flavor
Noraa
NM

Did you miss the part where Not_Mafia was cleared by Dunn? And are you shading Flavor still?

[Andresvmb]

Did you miss the part where Not_Mafia was cleared by Dunn? And are you shading Flavor still?

ur first in line. we're waiting.

Only unwnd has agreed that we should massclaim. Relax.

[Andresvmb]

Dunn proposed it. And I don’t care about your opinion.

[Andresvmb]

There was a lot of flailing and OMGUSing but I think newbtown probs does that stuff too?

Who are you calling a newb? I’m not new to the game. Just because I haven’t been playing in this forum since 2007 doesn’t mean you get to assume people’s experience level. If anything, you’re really bad Scum.

[Andresvmb]

Hahaha am I supposed to be impressed by that statement?

My Scum game is actually bad. I’m can be honest about that. I can’t fake my genuine interest and focus on game solving. But whatever you wouldn’t know since this isn’t my Scum game and I haven’t played Scum on this forum.

[Andresvmb]

^I can be honest*

[Andresvmb]

I don’t think that’s what I’m saying. But okay.

If anybody here believes that the Flavor v. Noraa debate in D2 is TvT, then go ahead and vote me. And look at the solve Noraa has put forth, while trying their hardest to avoid giving hard reads to leave her options open. This is obvious Scum play.

[Andresvmb]

I really don’t see an unwnd/nopoint Team as making any sense. I think Johnny/Titus/Flavor have at different times put forth arguments against the shellyc/Noraa slot, and I think the jig is up.

[Andresvmb]

I would argue that geraintm is more likely to flip Scum than Insanoflex, who is making a lot of good points and frankly is right to have cast some shade my way, particularly as I defended nopoint wrongly.

[Andresvmb]

That’s where I’m at.

[Andresvmb]

@Insano it’s possible the Scum shot Johnny thinking that plus might shoot there. plus had announced that they would shoot Johnny earlier in D2, and they might have been aiming to (i) discredit the Vig Claim (by having the shots overlap) while taking out a PR. You’ll also notice that Johnny was questioning the shellyc/Noraa slot. This is obviously sub-optimal as you and I have separately indicated, but it’s what makes most sense. I also don’t think you ever use your Role to protect Johnny there.

If you take what’s happened thus far as sufficiently strong evidence that Flavor is Town, then you should consider why Noraa continues to cast shade in that direction. That’s the one thing I would ask you to look at more closely.

[Andresvmb]

Also, yeah I started to consider a world where nopoint was Town for reasons I can’t explain to myself still. But I did discredit nopoint’s two main arguments this game: (i) Dunn’s supposed “slip”, and (ii) nopoint’s shade of Flavor’s claim. Ask yourself if I would have done that if I was partnered with nopoint. I thought all that was Scummy, and I was right about that even if I shot myself in the foot later.

[Andresvmb]

I’m not buddying anybody. I’m making my points and appealing directly to Insanoflex to evaluate what I’m saying.

Your meta arguments about yourself are worthless. That’s why I haven’t addressed them. I can also say “I would never defend my Partner so openly and brazenly so near an execution as Scum”, and you would have no way of really knowing for sure.

[Andresvmb]

@Insano it’s possible the Scum shot Johnny thinking that plus might shoot there. plus had announced that they would shoot Johnny earlier in D2, and they might have been aiming to (i) discredit the Vig Claim (by having the shots overlap) while taking out a PR. You’ll also notice that Johnny was questioning the shellyc/Noraa slot. This is obviously sub-optimal as you and I have separately indicated, but it’s what makes most sense. I also don’t think you ever use your Role to protect Johnny there.

If you take what’s happened thus far as sufficiently strong evidence that Flavor is Town, then you should consider why Noraa continues to cast shade in that direction. That’s the one thing I would ask you to look at more closely.

if they wanted to cast doubt on plus, nokill would be the choice

Perhaps. But you run the risk that plus hits Scum and you’ve wasted a potential NK. Which is why it wasn’t done.

[Andresvmb]

I’m sorry but that’s not how it works.

[Andresvmb]

Except you’re not trying to sort me at all, have tried to bury me, and are doing your best to survive above anything else.

What has happened in other games is illuminating in perhaps understanding how you approach the role of Town or Scum, but the actual outcome is not.

[Andresvmb]

I would also note that you replaced into a slot with a certain game state already built in, with various Claims and a limited pool. It’s not like any Scum would have a tremendous amount of options.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t understand why you’re insisting on making an argument about your results, when it’s pointless. Why don’t you try and defend your positions in this game. Like why is Flavor Scum outside of them “gaslighting” you? Why are you shading Dunn’s claim? Is that extending to a potential read of Not_Mafia? You said you had “no read” of Insanoflex, yet you say I’m buddying them. How can you be so sure?

[Andresvmb]

Insanoflex is still voting me. I was trying to get them to understand my perspective. If Insano chooses not to do that, then that’s on them. I’m also not appealing to Insanoflex to vote with me. Unless you can point to a post I made where I ask Insano to vote you, that’s just a fabrication.

“Dunn has done literally nothing” is a hilarious statement. They’ve cleared Not_Mafia. They’re either both Scum (highly unlikely), Dunn is a Town Cop and has actually checked Not_Mafia (most likely), or Dunn is Scum and is clearing Not_Mafia (not particularly likely, but sure could be the case). You can also go actually read Dunn’s positions and make some sort of coherent argument, instead of whatever nonsense you just posted.

[Andresvmb]

I've been last scum standing in EVERY SINGLE ONE OF MY SCUM GAMES except two. one where I got guilted night 1(ironically it was for being too towny. I was guilted by weak fn who crumbed their visit to their top TR Noraa really hard)
the other was xenoblade where the players were all incredible and never had a single mislim all game long. I died for trying to save a buddy too obviously day 1.

So... you haven’t been the last Scum standing in every game then.

[Andresvmb]

What do you mean wtf is my point. You made a claim that is easily refuted by what you yourself have posted. You can find whatever excuses you want. The truth of the matter is you haven’t been the last Scum standing every Scum game you have played. Your sample size is also quite small. So I just don’t put a lot of stock into that. And like I said - arguments about results are worthless to me. It just sounds like you’re trying to convince others that you’re too good to be suspected as Scum. Which is obviously ridiculous.

[Andresvmb]

This is a boring discussion now. Your own arguments about meta are not convincing. Try something else.

[Andresvmb]

They’re either both Scum (highly unlikely), Dunn is a Town Cop and has actually checked Not_Mafia (most likely), or Dunn is Scum and is clearing Not_Mafia (not particularly likely, but sure could be the case).

the last case is mostly what Im worried about. both being scum has come across my mind a few times but that'd be too simple.

This ignores the very real presence of a Cop Enabler, for one. And when exactly did you think they could both be Scum? Because you’ve literally never made the point.

[Andresvmb]

@Flavor can you quantify the odds for me that Noraa is Town here? I am most afraid of tunneling anybody that is Town and being responsible for screwing things up. I have done this in the past.

[Andresvmb]

Insano’s 1856 shows a willingness to vote geraintm, and Noraa has ranked geraintm fairly high on their execution list. I think it’s entirely possible geraintm is Town and both Insano and Noraa are the Scum Team.

[Andresvmb]

is it like not obvious or something what he's gonna say?

You need to let people answer.

[Andresvmb]

Noraa you’re actually kind of annoying to play with. Most of your arguments have been laughable but you don’t see me quoting posts of yours and going LOL.

[Andresvmb]

Okay well at least my argument about geraintm isn’t completely ridiculous since Noraa literally backed it up just now.

I’m going to take a step back, see what others think.

[Andresvmb]

Well my reason is because he did the "I'm sorry give me another chance thing" but you also did it. I just don't have meta on you.

I haven’t asked for another chance what. Like stop misrepresenting what I’m doing. I immediately began the day by stating the obvious truth that I was somewhat wrong (not completely - I wasn’t hard TR’ing nopoint, and I made some decently okay points about various players throughout this game). And then I stated how I’m looking at the game, and that’s that. If the Town decides to execute me, then so be it. But I’m not asking for chances or to let me live. I don’t give a fuck about that. I care about winning - that’s it.

[Andresvmb]

It’s not. It’s just your misinformed view of the situation.

[Andresvmb]

So Insano refuses to re-evaluate or consider any of my points? Noted.

[Andresvmb]

I can be both apologetic for being wrong, and continue to push for what I think is the correct solve. I’m not “changing my tune”, I’m playing the game.

And I think it’s mighty interesting that you don’t even consider the possibility that the Scum were bussing. Particularly since (i) Dunn, the claimed Cop, and Fuzzy, Confirmed Town, were not voting, and (ii) the only players voting outside of nopoint were geraintm, me, and nopoint. Is your theory that the entire Scum Team was voting outside of nopoint? Well if either geraintm or I are flipped and we flip Town, your theory immediately goes out the window. Are you ready for that?

[Andresvmb]

I would also point out that no second wagon gained any traction. That is bizarre for a game with a Scum determined on saving a member of their own Team. We did such a poor job of organizing against a nopoint execution that we couldn’t even agree on the Town that should be executed? Does that make sense?