Mini Number 2195 | Brutalism | GAME OVER

[Datisi]

oh boy, (almost) 3am!

VOTE: rtp
omgus

[Datisi]

also whoever doesn't have an avi, pls get one because i am too lazy to read names, thank you

pedit: wow

[Datisi]

duchess, any reason you specifically asked lotus that?

VOTE: harumi
this entrance pings me

[Datisi]

VOTE: RLotus for randomly voting.

also town

this serious?

[Datisi]

VOTE: RLotus for randomly voting.

also town

this serious?

Very.

do you wanna elaborate on those?

[Datisi]

lol

rtp, would you be so kind?

[Datisi]

not surprised.

does the duly noting mean anything?

[Datisi]

i can tell you right away why i asked about that one: because our views on that entrance are the opposite.

[Datisi]

early good vibes on green crayons and testarossa. i like their vibes around poking harumi, and i also like testa's 71 for some reason, despite not really agreeing with it.

[Datisi]

Datisi. If I'm to assume you're asking why I questioned Lotus and not Dunnstral, it's simply because Dunnstral said other words. They weren't related to his vote (which imo is self-evident enough), but content is content, and empty vote posts are just that.

what do you mean by "is self-evident enough"?

[Datisi]

how come i'm the only "null" on that list?

[Datisi]

What is your take on Elements Datisi?

gut townie? i like early readslists presented like that. the only thing that pinged me was the fact i was a sole null, but i think if elements were scum and bullshitting reads early, it probably wouldn't be a problem to bs a read on me too, so i actually don't think it's ai.

[Datisi]

hot take

VOTE: duchess

i don't like 68 and 95. the way they're questioning and poking elements about their gut reads and the way they form them seems to be more ~for show~ rather than being genuinely curious about them. also i'm getting pinged by the way they shade testa in 90 for looking like she's trying extra hard, when that's the read i get from their posts. seems somewhat... self-aware?

[Datisi]

I wouldn't say there is meant to be much of a progression between those two posts you linked. Elements did not directly answer my first question, but posting the readslist and the ensuing discussion was a satisfying enough response to me. Rather than prod for a direct answer, I pivoted to a different line of questioning, one that is more relevant now, and that nobody else seems to be picking up on.

i'm not talking about your progression between the two, i'm talking about the way those posts were formed. i think the questions themselves were fine, it just seemed a bit too performative / wordy, as in you were moreso making sure that everyone sees you're solving ele than actually solving them

[Datisi]

I don't fully understand what you're saying about Testa. Are you saying that I'm trying hard as well and so shouldn't be suspicious of her, or just that you had an opposite read?

it reminded me of a semi-recent game where i got called out as scum for something similar - iirc i was showing a scummy behaviour and also calling someome else out for said scummy behaviour. yeah, i kinda find it odd you'd hold it against her?

[Datisi]

Then it seems you have a problem with my writing style and not my play.

perhaps, time will tell. it's a line i'm interested in pursuing for now.

[Datisi]

Uh, I just isolated ItalianoVD and despite being relatively active they made like two substantial posts. For lack of any clearly better options, I'm going to VOTE: ItalianoVDVOTE: for now.

any reason for specifically isoing him?

[Datisi]

That's a very spicy take indeed.

do you have an opinion on it?

[Datisi]

@duchess, can you tell me why is green's question pinging you that much? like, why does such a loaded question seem impossible (not quite the right word, but can't think of another rn) from town's pov and what kinda possible push were you seeing there?

[Datisi]

Also town vibes from RTP, Duchess, and maybe Datisi

maybe?

[Datisi]

ok

what does maybe town mean (i.e. how is it different from town) and what's giving you those vibes

[Datisi]

do you wanna say anything about it?

[Datisi]

do you wanna say anything about it?

@rtp, i don't like being ignored.

[Datisi]

@duchess, can you tell me why is green's question pinging you that much? like, why does such a loaded question seem impossible (not quite the right word, but can't think of another rn) from town's pov and what kinda possible push were you seeing there?

His defense and attempt to turn the tables on me are strengthening my read by a lot. I don't know exactly what kind of push I was expecting to see, but if I recall correctly there was some discussion just before that time of Italiano possibly being an easy early push, and what I saw pinged me, so I wanted to nip it in the bud.

ok but what i don't get it what angle is scum!green supposedly trying to work there? like i agree the original question wasn't formatted the best but i don't get what you saw as intentionally malicious about it - bc even if it was (wrongly) established from that that italiano is bad at scum or an easy early push, what does that help green?

[Datisi]

early good vibes on green crayons and testarossa. i like their vibes around poking harumi, and i also like testa's 71 for some reason, despite not really agreeing with it.

I can get the former, but what triggered the vibe in my post about Baltar though?

~ * g u t * ~

i don't know. if i try to think back and put it into words, it would probably be something along the lines of 71 showing nuance in thinking about another player's slot, while also being a somewhat less likely post for scum to make, due to it (1) not offering a solid opinion (i feel like scum often avoids putting out blatnatly fence-sitty content) and (2) being easy to debunk/attack (due to it being page 3)

[Datisi]

also i'm getting pinged by the way they shade testa in 90 for looking like she's trying extra hard, when that's the read i get from their posts. seems somewhat... self-aware?

I kind of disliked the fos on Italiano more in that post tbh, while I can comprehend Duchess reacting to my post like they did. I feel the fact that they reflected about me two posts later (before rtp pointed out the same) shows some process of chewing on it which I don't really think scum necessarily bothers to do so here.

that process of chewing on it makes sense to me from the pov of a scum who just called out a townie for a behaviour that they themselves are exhibiting, though having typed it out i admit it sounds more tunnelly than i'd like

[Datisi]

Anyone play with Datisi before?

*you* have played with datisi before.

datisti

[Datisi]

do you wanna say anything about it?

@rtp, i don't like being ignored.

I think you're a bit too complacent + just ur energy feels off from when I have seen you as town.

my energy feeling off i can sorta see, though where have i been complacent??

He seems very focused on gameplay.

...does that tell you anything?

[Datisi]

I like datisi

alignment-wise or personality-wise?

No? That's my take from looking at your ISO. I didn't draw any conclusions from it.

then why write it out??

[Datisi]

hello

@duchess 196

@rtp 205

VOTE: italiano

goodbye

[Datisi]

Yall townread duchess?

no

And there goes the counterwagon.

lol?

[Datisi]

IIRC, Datisi, didn’t you start the wagon on Duchess? Why are you jumping off the wagon now? There was no indication (at least from your interaction with them) that you were townleaning/null them or null/scumreading me?

i was the first vote on duchess, yes. i'm jumping off because i saw something else that i want to chase for now. i am not townreading them. and my scumping on you stems p much solely from your last wallpost.

mind telling me about that counterwagon comment? i see you're "not sure" on lotus. think i'm scum?

[Datisi]

Daitsi: Did useful things. Seemed to flip on Duchess (scum -> town) which pings me a bit, but otherwise is mostly fine so town lean.

just want to point out that me no longer voting duchess =/= me townreading duchess.

do you have any experience w italiano? i'm still curious why you decided to iso him a few days (?) ago.

[Datisi]

*you* have played with datisi before.

my bad. what game?

that pyp x/y that dave modded, where i was a cop. on mobile, too lazy to look for a link.

[Datisi]

You also cited one of their posts as the reason for switching your vote

, which struck me as an odd decision for someone you were scumreading.

what? if you mean in 234, that wasn't me citing their post asa reason for the vote switch, that was me drawing their attention to my question they didn't answer?

[Datisi]

mind telling me about that counterwagon comment? i see you're "not sure" on lotus. think i'm scum?

What's there to say? You know what a counterwagon is. And yeah, you could be. My not sure on Lotus is because he doesn't have as much content and doesn't have many interactions, but he could very well be scum as well.

i'll answer the other q later, and there is something to say, surely. i know what a counterwagon is, and the vibe i picked up from your comment is that you think it's scum building a counterwagon, no? which is why i'm asking, what do you find scummy from me? *do* you find anything scummy form me? why did you even make the comment if you don't think there's scum on you?

pedit: hi andres!!

[Datisi]

@rtp, i am correct to assume that you're getting to my 205, right? also interested in hearing why harumi is town.

[Datisi]

ok, if it's the whole collection that is *screaming* that to you then i'm sure you can actually explain it yeah?

[Datisi]

but I’m hoping for Town since I felt that your paranoia lead to decent places last time.

...are you sure we're thinking of the same game?

[Datisi]

yeah, i was on the right side of the split... and that was the only scum i was right on at the time i died.

y'all did manage to win it in lylo. kinda sad i wasn't reading it at the time it happened.

pedit: i don't think we played together in any other games, i was just making a joke about my play there. sorry about the shittunnel lol

[Datisi]

i'm reading andres's 296 and trying to resist the urge to vote him. like, scum don't bus early game, unless they do. duchess is more likely to be town because they got voted, and *maybe* some votes are scumvotes, but no actual attempt at figuring out which votes are the bad ones. and also dismissing svs because the votes piled on while saying he isn't sure if there's scumvotes on the wagon. i feel like it reads as a textbook scum-pretenting-to-solve post.

at the same time, it's the exact same feeling i was getting the last game. hell.

edit: ok, after writing this post but before submitting, i went to iso andres to see if he's talked about his elements vote, and he actually did, he saw their vote as the scummiest one on the duchess wagon. so that breaks my theory and makes me feel better on andres. false alarm, carry on with your day, everyone. /edit

I hope you are shamed, Datisi.

i'm heartbroken.

i'm actually digging 306 by duchess. their reaction to italiano's post feels decently like what i felt when i first read it, and for some reason i am feeling the emotion as genuine here.

(or called me scum weirdly)

how surprised would you be if i said i'm currently town on you?

@Datisi: I mentioned the counterwagon post because at the time I thought Duchess was scum, so when you and Lotus quickly jumped onto me I figured I was the counterwagon to one of you being scum and partners with Duchess. I’m in a different headspace now than I was then.

ok, though i'm still interested in like, what you were/are thinking. was there anything that gave you scumvibes other than jumping on the wagon?

[Datisi]

rtp, why are you asking me that when you still refuse to work with me?

[Datisi]

rtp, why are you asking me that when you still refuse to work with me?

I'm not sure where I'm refusing to work with you.

when i asked you to explain like, what about my posting or whatever is making you so sure i'm scum, you keep handwaving it as vibe, can't fully explain it, when i feel like in the past you've been perfectly able to explain why you found me suspicious when you did?

i don't think asking for my progression on a slot is unreasonable in of itself, but coupled with the above it feels weird?

[Datisi]

Tess is weirdly avoiding this game too, yeah?

perhaps...
i don't remember you making reads on people based on their posting times/habits?

how surprised would you be if i said i'm currently town on you?

We are in uncharted territory here

2157 begs to differ

[Datisi]

right.

also, to datisi, can you elaborate why you think italiano is still scum here since you had voted him? What has specifically not been different or was the original conviction strong enough that you dont think their recent postings aren't better here for you?

first i saw him suspicious because of 232. more specifically, the first response in the post seemed like a vast exaggeration of duchess's "defense", where any mention of italiano was being made out to be a defense.

the "if you FoSed us both, why would you be against a push on me" argument was... bad. it rang as a """logical""" argument that scum pushes on someone because on level-zero, it shows a "contradiction" in their thinking. like nobody actually solves early on day one thinking about preflip in a way where they wouldn't probe something because a scumlean is attacking a different scumlean.

i'm not sure i get the second part? like he hasn't done anything to improve his own slot. the knee-jerk reaction "oh look duchess counterwagon" but then not actually having a scumread on me nor lotus rung me as gut-scummy, and the questions in 242 felt almost... loaded? like sure i was the first vote on duchess, ok? i at the time didn't lay out my reasoning for a vote switch, ok, and? that makes me scummy because ... ?

the return with the unvote on duchess is like... bleh. i think it makes sense from scum who wanted to push a townie, but in the meantime others gave up on that push / they started being townier, and now they don't have the ~safety~ of a wagon, don't know how to push it well alone, and are forced to reevaluate. though i'm willing to give some benefit of the doubt and wait until he returns with whatever he's gonna return with, until that time i'm comfortable on this wagon.

specifically from this point, what have you learned thus far from your push on italiano? has it clarified your read on them/the state around them? interested in your thoughts on this.

i didn't like his reaction to my naked vote, and the slot hasn't improved imo. not sure what you mean by state around them, i was never the one to do preflip/gamestate at this stage of the game (or like, anywhere in d1). err, he's not scum with duchess, probably not scum with whoever unvoted duchess prior to his unvote.

ok, now why do you find him town, and how has this response helped/influenced your read on the game?

[Datisi]

at the same time, it's the exact same feeling i was getting the last game. hell.

what is this referring to?

last game i played w andres, where we were t/t. i had a scumread/tunnel on him for the entire time that i was alive. i'm noting that i had a ~gut-scumread~ on andres here when reading his post that felt exactly like the ones i had in that game, where it was wrong. it's confusing.

talk to me about your vote on dunn?

also hi midway!!

[Datisi]

oh joy, midway doesn't make me wanna murder him on the spot. town vibes.

Limpool {RLotus, Lunar, Green Crayons, Baltar}

Townleaning {RTP, Andres, Duchess??)

tl;dr on all of these other than green/duchess?

@green i think you missed my questioning of your dunn vote

@rtp do you mind elaborating on what universes you're keeping track of and why you feel andres is scum? also i spent like 10 minutes typing up the italiano thing :c

[Datisi]

> i'm lazy, i don't feel like explaining my own reads
> i'm getting scumread and whatever i say is not enough [insert eyeroll emoji]

??????????????

[Datisi]

Where? Am I missing something?

Aww my bad you’re right. I meant to post this (bolded) in 435. This is what I had in my notes, just for got to include it in the original post. That’s why I thought I answered it.

I thought I was a reaction test for you, Italiano? I'm def scum now?

Okay? I never said you were def scum, just in my limpool. It just means that I’m more comfortable eliminating within my limpool than the players in the other categories.

what is the "(bolded)" referring to here?

[Datisi]

@rtp do you mind elaborating on what universes you're keeping track of and why you feel andres is scum? also i spent like 10 minutes typing up the italiano thing :c

rtp, i don't want to be chasing after you the whole game, but like, this is getting tiring. is there a concrete reason you're ignoring me?

[Datisi]

talk to me about your vote on dunn?

palate cleanser. felt getting sucked into a duchess vortex and wanted to break my vote away to force my attention away.

Baltar had just mentioned something about Dunn acting like lurker scum from prior scum game, which is a good enough to vote for me rn bc 1. voting lurkers is good for the soul, 2. Baltar pings me town, 3. i assume the meta analysis isn't wrong otherwise Dunn would say so, and 4. it wasn't Duchess.

alright, i can vibe with that.

i've seen dunn lurk as either alignment, but he definitely hasn't impressed so far. do you have anyone that actively pings you scum? (other than maybe duchess, i guess.)

[Datisi]

@rtp do you mind elaborating on what universes you're keeping track of and why you feel andres is scum? also i spent like 10 minutes typing up the italiano thing :c

rtp, i don't want to be chasing after you the whole game, but like, this is getting tiring. is there a concrete reason you're ignoring me?

@reformed toxic player

[Datisi]

i'm interested in why other people not thinking i'm townie (?) is enough to drop me down despite them thinking i'm ~quite towny~?

[Datisi]

dunnstral, is that all you've got to say?

Datisi - Haven't figured out how to read this one. I think he's generally quite towny, but other people don't? Not rlly sure what to think.

Who thinks Datisi is scummy?

It’s crossed my mind. They seem over-explainy to me so far.

that is scummy in what way ... ?

re: datisi its a sorta complex question that involves reanalyzing and compartmentalizing my bizzare thought process. my brain tends to avoid hard questions so sorry.

don't worry about it, take a break and feel better, irl > dumb internet game, etc.

when you can, i'd like to hear the thought process, if you can lay it out without ~giving info~. also interested in why you put testa as top town.

[Datisi]

TBH, I don't think I can read Datisi very well.

what gives you this impression?

btw you read the game yet?

[Datisi]

edit: ok, after writing this post but before submitting, i went to iso andres to see if he's talked about his elements vote, and he actually did, he saw their vote as the scummiest one on the duchess wagon. so that breaks my theory and makes me feel better on andres. false alarm, carry on with your day, everyone. /edit

Can you explain to me why you don’t think Elements is Scum here? I spent some time slowly re-reading the game, and for the life of me I can’t seem to agree with their worldview at all, and I think them putting me as Town was to appease me.

is there a reason why that part of my post was quoted for this question?

and /shrug. that early readslist was townish but i notice now they've kinda slipped under my radar, and reskimming their iso, i definitely don't townread them anymore. i'm currently stuck in "waiting for elements to explain the heck was their read on me" limbo. also i'm aware that elements has a yeet-baity sorta playstyle, which is why i'm willing to give them a bit more time before making conclusions.

[Datisi]

that is scummy in what way ... ?

I feel like you’re trying too hard to explain yourself. I don’t know, it’s a vibe I’m getting.

ok but

why is that scummy

Nah Italiano bites back when he gets scumread as town, the defeatism is the nail in the coffin imo

have you checked any of his scumgames for that?

dislike 544 because i've seen a "ok i'll do things Later" post come from scum one too many times

[Datisi]

is there a reason why that part of my post was quoted for this question?

In that particular case, I only did it so that I could keep track of where I was when re-reading the game. But honestly I don’t know how to feel about you Datisi. From where I sit, you are almost justifying having a negative view of my slot as something that just happens for you naturally even when I’m Town, and even when your first impression doesn’t quite match with how I have actually played the game so far. And I’m saying this since you admitted that I did provide some explanation for my vote on Elements when at first you thought I hadn’t given any.

i was also asking why were you asking me in particular that question about elements, sorry if that was unclear

and like... you do understand that i don't hold a negative view of your slot because of that? i thought your posts didn't make sense because in my mind town!andres would've looked into duchess voters, i typed it out, i relooked at your iso before hitting submit, nevermind i was wrong, he did do that (and forgive me for forgetting that, i'm a few atm), this does make sense. like, if i was trying to justify a negative view of your slot, don't you think i'd have picked something that's i also don't then debunk myself 3 seconds later?

[Datisi]

like i'm trying to be as objective as i can because i know i have a bias towards scumreading your style/tone. even reading your latest posts i want to vote you because to me you seem pretty sure about elements but also "if i were sure on anyone, you should find me suspicious", but i *know* i was wrong on similar things and i'm trying to figure out how to read you

pedit: yeah. sorry i can't in good faith give you a strong case why elements is or isn't scum here. i recently finished modding a game where they got yeeted for being weird/scummy while actually having the best reads in town which is why i have zero interest in making hasty conclusions.

[Datisi]

why is that scummy

I find large explanations or cases on anything D1 to be suspicious. It makes me think you’re full of hot air.

maybe true
doesn't make me scum

don't you think i'd have picked something that's i also don't then debunk myself 3 seconds later?

I’m not quite sure what you were trying to do to be honest with you.

i was writing out my thought/solving process. that's how i play this game, i try to get as much of my thought process out as possible. doesn't matter if it's contradictory or i can't quite explain it or makes me look bad or whatever. i trust that at some point people are going to townread me for the transparency.

[Datisi]

sounds dope. maybe we should play together more.

[Datisi]

@baltar, in your opinion, how's andres stock doing?

[Datisi]

But I’m trying to judge players based on how they’re viewing the one player I’m most skeptical of.

Yes!
Everyone give their thoughts on me!
Fuel my ego!

elements can you answer 484 for me please

[Datisi]

i was writing out my thought/solving process. that's how i play this game, i try to get as much of my thought process out as possible. doesn't matter if it's contradictory or i can't quite explain it or makes me look bad or whatever. i trust that at some point people are going to townread me for the transparency.

You don’t seem to be giving me this same benefit of the doubt, but you want people to just do this for you. Hmm

lol excuse me what? what kinda benefit of the doubt am i supposed to be giving you here?

[Datisi]

idk how to read you, so i've outsourced it

?? we've never played together. is there a specific reason why you're not using your own read of me?

[Datisi]

ok let me try that again. why do you feel like you cannot read me and that you have to use other people's opinions when you already have a read on me?

[Datisi]

i was writing out my thought/solving process. that's how i play this game, i try to get as much of my thought process out as possible. doesn't matter if it's contradictory or i can't quite explain it or makes me look bad or whatever. i trust that at some point people are going to townread me for the transparency.

You don’t seem to be giving me this same benefit of the doubt, but you want people to just do this for you. Hmm

lol excuse me what? what kinda benefit of the doubt am i supposed to be giving you here?

@italiano, i'd like this answered.

[Datisi]

yeet

VOTE: dunn

[Datisi]

i was writing out my thought/solving process. that's how i play this game, i try to get as much of my thought process out as possible. doesn't matter if it's contradictory or i can't quite explain it or makes me look bad or whatever. i trust that at some point people are going to townread me for the transparency.

You don’t seem to be giving me this same benefit of the doubt, but you want people to just do this for you. Hmm

lol excuse me what? what kinda benefit of the doubt am i supposed to be giving you here?

@italiano, i'd like this answered.

I've pretty much said and done the same thing you said you do in 565. It's almost word for word my sentiments, thoughts, and reactions to the whole Duchess/Green thing. And multiple people scumread it. You voted me for it. I was writing out my thoughts and the reasons I said what I said and why I was reacting to certain things the way I did, etc. and people were like "Nah bruh, that's scummy and I'm voting for you, so when I saw your comment, it made me do a double take, which is why I commented on it.

The issue with the comment is not that you scumread me for my comment, but that you were using that as a reason to pushback against Andres' suspicion on you. In any other scenario I would have agreed with it/you 100%.

you do understand that's not remotely how that works, right?

like sure. maybe we have a similar approach to townplay, that is "react to things transparently and eventually people will townread me for it", i don't know, i've never played with you, it doesn't matter here. i thought your reactions to duchess/green were scummy. i thought your play after that was scummy. i frankly don't understand your claim/implication here that i should be giving you the benefit of the doubt just because you claim to operate similarly to how i do.

if you're town here, i don't know that. and besides the vague "well the majority of the people is town", there is no reason that i should be assuming you're town here. i'm not gonna be assuming that. the "idea" behind transparency is that eventually it will shine through, but i don't plan to be sitting on the side waiting for it??

and like... why is me using that to pushback against andres an issue to you? he didn't understand why i said something, i explained why i said it. because my explanation to someone's suspicion on me happens to be the same thing you claim you were doing, i'm supposed to automatically trust you?

[Datisi]

like, i dunno. i'd get if i was suspecting you *because* of being transparent (or bc of claiming to be transparent) and then i turned around and yelled at andres for suspecting *me* because of that, but that is not what happened. like, the only way your argument works here is if you're somehow assuming i'm supposed to already know that you're town being transparent, which ??? lemme tell you, you are not obvtown

[Datisi]

1. The fact that I can’t figure out this game. It’s stalled and I don’t know why.
2. I know there is at least one scum on me at the present and I can’t figure it out.
3. Trying to figure it out seems moot because my credibility is shot currently.
4. Being scumread for being transparent.
5. The fact that this game is dead, oh did I mention that already.

1./5. the game is dead because 4-5 people are barely playing or not playing at all and the moderator had abandoned us for half a week too. wow.

2. where are you trying to figure it out? like this seems more like complaining about being voted than actually, idk... genuinely sorting anyone? like you have 3/4 people that are pushing you as confusing/null/weird.

also i feel like you're trying your best to ignore me while throwing sideways shade at me and i Do Not Like It

4.

[Datisi]

I also don’t like Datisi’s 618 (seems like Scum sidelining a player that is maybe an easy push here).

mind elaborating on this?

[Datisi]

i think baltar may actually be my strongest townread at this moment in time and i don't know how i feel about it

baltar, talk to me about your italiano read? is it just a tstbs thing or is there something more?

[Datisi]

oh shit, hi battle mage

have we finally rolled the same alignment, or are you scum again?

[Datisi]

Datisi, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on andres. (Did I ask that already?)

if you have, i didn't see it. my plan for andres this game was frankly to read you first, and if i have a townread on you, to sheep you on him, since i vaguely remember a post from you in a different game where you said you think you'd be able to read him well.

off the top of my head, he's vaguely south of null, bc i don't appreciate the vague shade / his read towards me and the "there's scum pushing italiano, if italiano flips town these people are +scum" while not actually getting to any conclusions who it is and why. though i admit this is way too surface-level than i'd like, so i'll reread/reskim his iso again Soon(tm) and see what i find.

[Datisi]

what's the case on Dunn?

he bein' kinda lurky and not towny

my townreads be votin' there

i'm a sheep

the game has kinda not done much in the past 2-3 days

[Datisi]

definitely feel the emotion here. happy to assume Italiano is locktown - I think Italiano-scum has more self-respect than to run this as a gambit.

this a meta or a general read?

[Datisi]

how do you get scumreads on two players from those notes??

andres is town should this flip scum every time.

harumi i feel is not as towny as i initially thought - i still think scum!GC implies town!harumi

also what's the reason behind this?

pedit: lol

[Datisi]

didn't you say you had too many scumreads earlier?

also ok, but how are you coming to partnered / associate reads then?

[Datisi]

I feel as though if i am right on elements/GC then datisi/vp contain last maf based on how quick they both reacted to my fos on those 2 - please sheep this if both elements and GC indeed flip scum.

> writes a list with only describing positive things about players
> concludes 2 scumreads from that list
> "if i'm right, they're scum for reacting to my fos"

you're joking, right?

[Datisi]

I feel as though if i am right on elements/GC then datisi/vp contain last maf based on how quick they both reacted to my fos on those 2 - please sheep this if both elements and GC indeed flip scum.

> writes a list with only describing positive things about players
> concludes 2 scumreads from that list
> "if i'm right, they're scum for reacting to my fos"

you're joking, right?

If im reading every player u think im missing the scummy stuff too?
Lol?

that's not what i said? lol???
like my issue is that you made a list where you listed nothing but positives on people, then concluded that you have two scumreads based off that, *then* went "oh they reacted to the fos quickly, if this is red, that's scum"

my issue isn't step 2 (which was weird but your explanation to that was *fine*), it's step 3

making a seeming contradictory read like that then calling out people for questioning you about it is ??? like do you genuinely think that whoever tf questioned you on that is grounds for some 9000 iq associate read as opposed to whoever was currently online and reading the thread?

[Datisi]

1./5. the game is dead because 4-5 people are barely playing or not playing at all and the moderator had abandoned us for half a week too. wow.

The fact that it doesn't at least somewhat frustrate you or allow you to understand why someone else would be frustrated by it is telling to me.

2. where are you trying to figure it out? like this seems more like complaining about being voted than actually, idk... genuinely sorting anyone? like you have 3/4 people that are pushing you as confusing/null/weird.

Have you read my iso? I've pretty much given all my thoughts up to this point.

also i feel like you're trying your best to ignore me while throwing sideways shade at me and i Do Not Like It

I am not ignoring you, but your takes to my responses are one of the things that have been annoying me. So I try to leave and then come back so I can give you a better less annoyed response, unless you want the unfiltered versions.

i understand why someone would be frustrated, and i am not enjoying the (used to be) crawl-pace of the game either. that's not the issue. the problem is that you're framing it as a great mystery that you've spent so much time thinking over, "i can't figure out why the game is stalled" when the answer is plainly obvious? it's performative and reads fake. like, even in this very line. "it is telling to me." it's telling *how*?? what are your conclusions??? like why do you seem afraid of genuinely saying something (i'm assuming it's a negative view of my slot here) and are sidestepping it like this???

yeah, i opened your iso and ctrl+f'ed the names of the people who were voting you at the time. there was no conclusion on baltar, there was no conclusion on me, nor on lotus. it boiled down to "it's weird, it's unreadable, i think your play if off", and i didn't find anything that's actually showing you're sorting the slots. which i find to be problematic when your post says "i can't figure it out."

i'd say give me the unfiltered versions, but i'm prone to shitfights myself so for the better of the game, maybe not. like sorry if i'm annoying you, that's not my intention, but i don't think you're town right now and i'd appreciate if i didn't have to pull teeth to get responses from you?

[Datisi]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: RTP

Down2Clown

tell me more, tell me more

[Datisi]

lol, i'm actually quietly laughing to myself, dunno why i find 826 amusing but i do

VOTE: rtp

yeah ok. at first my brain just ignored that but i see what you mean. let's see what happens, i'm gonna go sleep (i need to get up in 5 hours, send help), i'll think about this properly tomorrow

[Datisi]

guess who ended up sleeping not 5, but 3 hours last night??? this mf

i will now attempt to be a contributing member of the town

first thing first, the sheer ~presence~ of battle mage so far makes me think he's town here bc this feels very far out of jungle oligarchy

[Datisi]

jesus i feel braindead

datisis desperation day

*vietnam flashbacks*

i have a huge dislike of lotus' 869 bc it seems like half the posts are baltar asking someone about their negative read on someone else and lotus framing that as taking advantage / trying to get onto a misexe wagon. i was actually decently town on lotus bc i thought the arguments he was making against italiano rang honest but this is just... bad.

re: 871 - might come as a shocker, but (1) i townread baltar (2) i play town by working with my townreads. like yeah i'm assuming his alignment bc i think he's town?

re: 875 - lotus can you talk about what you reread here / what your conclusions were?

elements, do you have like, thoughts on things that are happening right now?

ok @rtp i feel like we need to Properly Talk. i'll go through your reads in 696 properly a bit later but i feel like a lot of things are just... noted vaguely positive things that don't exactly mean much? like e.g. italiano making statements that can be backed up, how/why is that townpoints? what statements do you mean here? why is willingness to reeval townie? and also like, i just plainly disagree that the list of why they were annoyed was any good so idk. like you feel what i mean?

and another thing i wanna note what is your read on me/vpb? i mean this in the context of us voting for you, bc earlier you said that this is your town meta (which ftr i don't think is worth that much because meta can easily be changed but i digress) and then you say that our votes on you seem fine/misguided to you bc meta etc, so mind elaborating on that?

ok i need to run now bc class in literally a minute i'll be back in a few

[Datisi]

such fucking dirty tactics smfh

i was about to go take a walk but i left you an inquiry in 905

[Datisi]

ok @rtp i feel like we need to Properly Talk. i'll go through your reads in 696 properly a bit later but i feel like a lot of things are just... noted vaguely positive things that don't exactly mean much? like e.g. italiano making statements that can be backed up, how/why is that townpoints? what statements do you mean here? why is willingness to reeval townie? and also like, i just plainly disagree that the list of why they were annoyed was any good so idk. like you feel what i mean?

and another thing i wanna note what is your read on me/vpb? i mean this in the context of us voting for you, bc earlier you said that this is your town meta (which ftr i don't think is worth that much because meta can easily be changed but i digress) and then you say that our votes on you seem fine/misguided to you bc meta etc, so mind elaborating on that?

It's a sort of energy thing - the way they are playing does not come off as informed to me. Idk if you have noted by now but I tend to have pretty strong and accurate reads on LHF slots, like italiano, wrt reading how their bumbling around is. I think they are genuine and also combined with how their energy felt when we rolled scum together - I think that is towny. If I have to eat crow so be it - i do think an investigative is worth using on that slot. That combined with the fact I have a team read atm that I feel looks like... it fits? so far makes me confident rn

i already outted my read on vpb - but u are leaning town based on my poe + ur later play. i may have to reread a scum game of urs to brush myself back up since i've only played with town you so far. I do agree I'm one who can manipulate meta. I had alisae tell me a while back I should play town by trying to work with other town, which is what im trying to apply here now. But like I know I did note a pattern of just shitpushing people when I'm scum -> while you can make the argument I'm faking it here it's 100% like leaning town for me here. I have a history of being more "aggressive" as town - which is usually how ppl have tried to sort me - obviously now that I'm actively trying to remove that from my gameplay it is a stark difference that ppl who have played with me are going to see and be like "ok koba is off i think maybe scum for it".

i've not noted that, actually. am i forgetting something? also i get that it's a gutread but can you elaborate on it further than "energy"? like you listed some concrete things about him back in 696 (that i repeated here), and like i'm not seeing how they translate to a townread here if that makes sense?

ok so what about my later play is improving me in your eyes (and you still kinda haven't elaborated on what made me scum in the first place)? also you played with scum!me in brass & shrapnel. :c

[Datisi]

it looks more like u are shifting naturally from a like "hmm idk" kinda stage to a "hm ok this is true" like idk how to explain it.

i'm sorry i have approximately zero clue what this means, maybe i'm tired

where/how did my early play feel agenda-y?

also like that's not an answer to my question - but now that you bring it up, *what* about the gamestate makes you think that? and who said anything about scumreading him bc of making mistakes?

i'm getting annoying to myself with this continuous questioning, but like i feel like i need to see an example from you on why your reads are the way they are? bc right now it feels just like you're adding different reasonings to things but i don't see the cogs actually turning behind the scenes

[Datisi]

here's the thing. i'm also a Certified Gut Player(tm), when i'm town. when i'm scum, i don't have gut (bc obviously informed of everyone), so i have to fake it. here and there it happens that someone asks me for an elaboration of a read that i said i have and that i don't know how to elaborate on. the thing i usually do then is vomit out a meaningless wordsalad of words such as gut, vibe, feeling, gamestate, soulread, etc, and pray that they think it's a Datisi Gutread and leave me the fuck alone.

the issue is that that's exactly what i'm feeling behind your posts here. like you're going "hey i think this comes off as X, and i think you should also be able to reach the conclusion after reading this" but i am not reaching it. i still think italiano is scum. like, i am literally asking you specific stuff -

what about the gamestate points at town!italiano? what statements that are able to be backed up make italiano townie? why is italiano being willing to reeval townie there? what did you like about his annoyed list? where did you feel i was agenda-y in early posts?

and i feel like i'm not getting much in response other than sidestepping

pedit: this ^^ is @rtp obviously

[Datisi]

Harumi Ayasato *
Green Crayons
Lunar Martian midwaybear
Reformed Toxic Player
Testarossa * Battle Mage
Andresvmb
Elements
ItalianoVD
VP Baltar
Datisi
Dunnstral
Duchess *
RLotus

from memory, it would be something like:

town:
baltar
battle mage / duchess
green / midway
---
confusing null:
? elements ?
???? rtp ????
? dunnstral ?
?? andres ??
? lotus ?
---
scum:
harumi
italiano

confusing null is probably the biggest priority for figuring out rn

pedits: not read

[Datisi]

i'm rereading 869

then i'm rereading this page

and i'm wondering if lotus is town here, for the sole reason of "is scum really *this* tone-deaf?"

[Datisi]

i again slept less than 4 hours last night and i want to be not alive right now

why are people voting my mason buddy

what am i about to read

[Datisi]

i dislike 966 (yeah yeah i know what's new) because i'm p sure rtp did indeed answer those q's before
man this sounds tunnelly

i am interested in
@italiano, do you have a read on me here yet? also like, any opinion/change on lotus/rtp?

Reformed Toxic Player - Main reservation here is the point I made about laughing off a considerable goof, and that RTP is a good scum player. I will say that their play this game seems less chaos making and more trying to actually solve the game, which gives me town vibes. I'm still trying to sort how much of that I'm feeling based on the changed playstyle.

while i get your logic behind their reaction to the goof, i don't think it's *that* strong of a point against them. i'm kinda wondering if you had any thoughts on me/rtp convo that happened yesterday? i.e., what do you think of the points i raised against them?

except when masons have an ego trip and fos me for fosing them...

is this @ me

VOTE: Elements
Not a fan of RTP wagon

s'there any reasoning for these

and now the site decides to not work properly and take 2 minutes to load stuff, that is nice

the vibe i'm getting from duchess' 989 is town who gets super fixated on things that are important to them, then gets frustrated when other people don't see it that way / don't pay attention to same details and mistake that for scum

my one worry was that the timing of this is oddly opportunistic, but on second thought i'm not quite on that being the case considering their absence and the fact they're replying to an older post

I'd really like to hear from Harumi

this feels... kinda random? like harumi hasn't picked up their prod i'm p sure. anything prompt this?

posting this now bc barely made it to bottom of pg 40 and my eyes are glazing over
also baltar is online and i'd like to hear the answer to the rtp bit above while he's still here

[Datisi]

page 33 is boring. why are VD and Datisi arguing? is one pushing a case on the other? Both? please advise (with something interesting).

i'm arguing w him bc i think he has a good chance of being scum and i don't like when people evade / shade me without concrete thoughts?

i kinda like where green's coming from in 1012, though i disagree w it. like sure, a flip by that post itself isn't that likely, but it casts shade on two people townreading each other (which, if they're correct, is obviously a problem for scums), and i have a feeling it undermines each other's defense. hm. am i seeing red in places i shouldn't be?

can i get shotgun reads from you next time you're here?

...thonk on 1020.
UNVOTE:
i don't know if i feel this right now.

Datisi does have precedence to be voting there looking at his interactions with RTP. I do still find it strange how he followed VPB to RTP and doing the same thing before following VPB onto Dunn.

"strange" is a meaningless word here. do you conclude anything from it?

i've been staring at the last ~15 posts for way too goddamn long

elements, do you mind answering that?

[Datisi]

Let me see if that comes back to me on reread after I feed my cats.

how many pets do you have?

[Datisi]

aww.

@elements: ...yes?

[Datisi]

Which felt genuine to me. The part that really resonated with me is RTP being able to pick out the low hanging fruit players. I recall seeing them do that in other games, where they just go against the grain if someone is pushing a weak player. Does that make them right? I don't know, but it is a thing they do, so that response came across as genuine to me.

You obviously wanted more specifics than that and didn't get them, but it didn't strike me as scummy.

i agree i don't see scummy stuff in what they wrote here itself. it was that i expect when someone makes a specific claim that they'll be able to back it up. though i remember starting to like the posts i read from them earlier today, so i'm currently mulling over if i'm overly projecting.

This I almost replied to because I had the same gut reaction to your early play, and it was hard to quantify. It didn't seem as engaged as usual (though I know you are in a lot of games, which is probably why I wrote it off early). Like, if forced, I could probably go back and figure out specific posts that triggered that feeling, but offhand I can't. It was just a vibe. So RTP saying that also didn't strike me as scummy, but mainly because I felt similarly ambivalent about your play early on. I alluded to this when I said I had a town read on andres (which admittedly was in part to see your reax).

first of all, i never thought they're scummy for being suspicious of my early play, all my issues were from lack of a proper elaboration. i also take "unenganged" to be different than "agenda-y" - the former being not as interested, the latter being intentionally misleading/malicious. (though if i'm misunderstanding what agenda-y means, do call me out.) which is why i was interested in what gave the feeling of an agenda (what i read as intentional malice/leading astray) as opposed to just vibe/being uninterested/the way i'm presenting myself/what have you.

i did notice that. did you get anything from my reax?

[Datisi]

GC, who are your townreads outside of elements btw?

midway, andres, Baltar, RL. I think elements is on the town side of the ledger for reasons ID'd above. BM had a great entrance with burst of activity + bringing thegame back to life, which also suggests town.

is there a reason why you're town on lotus that's not about that one post?

he has a good chance of being scum

is this because of VD's defeatism/ATE or something else? link me if you've already made this point before, sorry in advance

you can probably get the tl;dr from my 412, 618, 822

i've got a plan
let's vote me out to prove all your speculations about me being scum wrong
VOTE: elements

What was duchess's case on me that I was misrepresenting?

it wasn't a case
you were saying Duchess claimed to have *caught me lurking*
Duchess claim to have *caught me while I was online*
and you just kept saying stuff about catching me lurking

???
is this supposed to be a response to 1047?

aaand i think i gotta run for a bit

[Datisi]

As far as my takeaway on you, it felt like your town self to really push someone for specifics without being rude about it. That was my general takeaway

do you think scum!me is rude?

also, i was asking about the last parenthesis in your 1066. i thought that was talking about my reaction to 298?

[Datisi]

oops i got distracted by Things

also @green am i null to you?

i've been staring at this rtp v green for far too long. i'll reread it once i have more than 3 functioning brain cells bc right now this just feels like a bunch of annoyance and talking past each other.

@rtp can you explain to me what you meant by widening poe? bc i legit don't think i get it

yeah i'm feeling dead ok bye

[Datisi]

this is my town game

[Datisi]

datisi any reason u have been dodging this thread btw? noticed u been posting elsewhere recently and not here

a limited amount of time and energy, and an inability to be in two places at once. i'm getting to this one soon(tm).

[Datisi]

Theres just that energy of just hedginess and not pushing to solve slots, just in keeping options open

yeah that's something i kinda didn't get, bc it seemed to me a lot of people he put as not willing to vote are people that have been pushed (i.e. lotus, italiano, elements)

UNVOTE:
Mmmmm

UNVOTE:

what prompted this again?

It's like you're not even trying to evaluate the people pushing on you, but instead calling them scum with blanket terms like bad faith.

did i hallucinate the discussion i had with baltar yesterday about duchess or

i'm rereading 869

then i'm rereading this page

and i'm wondering if lotus is town here, for the sole reason of "is scum really *this* tone-deaf?"

can you explain this reaction to 869?

it's like, scum are often more self-aware than town, right. and in cases like these, there's often a thought, is this too batshit insane to come from scum? like, at what point is something so fucking bad it just can't be scum? because his case on baltar is uhh... a dumpster fire?

the vibe i'm getting from duchess' 989 is town who gets super fixated on things that are important to them, then gets frustrated when other people don't see it that way / don't pay attention to same details and mistake that for scum

how are you slotting this as town rather than NAI?

it's the ~vibe~
idk, it read genuine. like they truly did believe they were onto something with elements, and got pissed off when someone else wasn't seeing that / was ignoring their read.

I need to read (I’m doing that now so give me like an hour or two to update all of my reads), but it’s really hard to pinpoint exact Scum on a wagon for a player you think is Town yeah?

no, i agree it's difficult. but like, i feel that town, when they see someone they think is town getting wagoned, they're more likely to think "ok, this vote i can see, this vote is pure garbage, etc", as opposed to just blanket-saying "ye probably scum on that wagon lol".

RTP is pushing {GC, Elements}, and you RLotus are pushing {VPB, ItalianoVD} while leaving Elements at null and attacking some of the “lurker” slots. Somethings not right.

I would gamble Datisi is siding somewhat incorrectly?

But is maybe too transparent with their logic and reads for Scum. I also thought Battle Mage was Town and don’t understand the discredit there from RTP.

sorry, what does this mean?

bottom of pg 47 yay

[Datisi]

I’m catching up and I’m more than likely gonna be updating my reads.

@Datisi, I still don’t know what to think of you. Baltar is somewhat clearing you, but I’m not gonna place you both at town just yet. For all I know you’re partners. Just thinking about it most likely not, if anything it’s a t/s connection I don’t know so you stay null. You scumreading me for your reasons are goofy to me, but I’m not gonna change your mind and I’m not gonna try to, I’m gonna move on. Like I told Lotus run my iso back, which gives all my thoughts and reads. If you run it back and still think I’m scum then do your thing.

VOTE: RLotus

why do you vote lotus here if you're likely to be updating reads?

also like, why are connecting my alignment to baltar? i get we're townreading each other, but i'm my own slot here. the reasons are "goofy", do you have no opinion on which alignment they're more likely to come from???

Fascinating. We actually reached the same exact conclusion independently.

i didn't think this day would ever come.

ok leaving this game for past midnight was a horrible fucking idea
i'm gonna go sleep and be back on this in ~9 hours

[Datisi]

Town
{Datisi, Italiano, Andre}
{Midwaybear, GC}
{VPB, RTB, Battle Mage}
{Duchess, Dunn}
{Rlotus, Maxwell}
Scum

may i inquire about the change of the position of my slot

[Datisi]

VOTE: maxwell

you know what let's try it

[Datisi]

i actually unironically like 1442? like i was thinking of dropping a lotus vote and the dude just does That. also looking at the proposed blocc/poe, it's making me think either he's town coming to his senses or he's scum and there's multiple scumfucks inside that townblocc which is why he's willing to drop it there and we're fucked. given i'm ~town on p much everyone inside it other than maybe lotus himself? idk fam.

[Datisi]

people are generally ambivalent towards you. you're sort of sitting there in the middle of game impact. No one's pushed for you. You're towny enough that scum haven't bothered to push you but not so towny they need to try discredit you. Idk I'm spouting nonsense, vibes.

frankly i have no idea how this translates to a townread but i will admit that last sentence is a big mood

[Datisi]

baltar is being town irl

VOTE: vpb

can i ask the vpb question

oh, if you think italiano's vote/progression on you is bad why are you lurkerwagoning duchess?

[Datisi]

actually elements, gonna ask about italiano and andres too

bc i'm reskimming italiano's iso rn and i don't think i see it, chief

[Datisi]

Datisi, what's the bullet point case on Italiano scum?

- i don't think i've felt genuine solving from him this game

- his way of dismissing/shading me gives me vibes of scum who wants to scumread me but doesn't know how / doesn't want me to get back on their ass again - like for the amount of things he implies are scummy about me i don't see how he can have me as lolnull

- i got a Performative vibe from some of his posts (e.g.

this game is dead and i cannot figure out why?!

) that's trying to make it appear there's more to his thoughts than there actually is

- also i'm reskimming some isos and i cannot follow his vote onto rtp at all - i agree the jumpiness (or however you call it) doesn't necessarily make rtp town but saying it's full on scummy? agreed some play have been strange but? why is it scummy? like i also thought the readslist thing was strange but the explanation was fine? what explanations did he not like?

[Datisi]

- his way of dismissing/shading me gives me vibes of scum who wants to scumread me but doesn't know how / doesn't want me to get back on their ass again - like for the amount of things he implies are scummy about me i don't see how he can have me as lolnull

Which posts of his do you feel like he is implying you're scummy?

i went to look for these but i opened my own iso instead of italiano's, and it took me a good 5 seconds to figure out why italiano's posts aren't appearing on the screen

anyway

615 gives me the vibe of shading me for not giving him the same ~benefit of the doubt~ that i apparently want for myself
which i did call out at the time (618), i don't think i got a response

1./5. the game is dead because 4-5 people are barely playing or not playing at all and the moderator had abandoned us for half a week too. wow.

The fact that it doesn't at least somewhat frustrate you or allow you to understand why someone else would be frustrated by it is telling to me.

i was calling out the "this game is dead, i can't figure it out" thing as blatantly obvious to figure out, and his conclusion from that is that it's weird that i'm not frustrated by it (which is false and i never said that but besides the point) and that it's "telling" to him. what's it telling?

You scumreading me for your reasons are goofy to me, but I’m not gonna change your mind and I’m not gonna try to, I’m gonna move on.

and this just, like ok my reasons are "goofy". am i scum bullshitting? am i a townie making a mistake? nah my reasons are just goofy he's not gonna try to change my mind

pedit: dude i am trying i'm braindead again give me a bit

[Datisi]

I hate that I started this day super confident in my reads, and now everything is mush.

this is a mood. s'there any you think discuss w me would help?

not overly swayed by maxwell's case, in any direction. max, you read the full game yet?

green, i don't think you answered my q in 1127?

[Datisi]

this is a mood. s'there any you think discuss w me would help?

I don't think so. I really don't feel super confident in the elements wagon, and I wish I shared your assuredness on Italiano.

I was hoping we'd continue our streak of brilliant last minute scum decimation, but I just don't have strong vibes on anyone. I have more town reads than anything, which is great, but doesn't necessarily help with nailing a scum today.


If you couldn't get italiano today, who would be your last minute speed yeet ftw candidate?

i was thinking whether to write "discussion" or "discussing" so i wrote "discuss", beautiful

yeah, i dunno.

people i'm ~town on to some extent - green, rtp, bm, baltar, dats, duchess, lotus
remains - maxwell, midway, andres, elements, italiano, dunn

removing italiano

andres i'm frankly ??? on. earlier today, i had his iso open for what was probably half an hour, and i had another tab open where i was writing a post on him, and holy hell nothing was coming to me. i think there is a chance he's scum here, but frankly i have a feeling solving him would be much easier with some flips, as opposed to trying to figure him out d1.

i guess max is currently it for me? i was not impressed by him so far, the takes in his earlier post seemed decently safe, and the post on green is ehh.

elements i'm i guess sorting as "town???" in my mind but frankly i don't think i can give you a single reason as to why anymore. midway has kinda... disappeared after the initial burst of decent activity, which imo is Not Good, and it would maybe(?) make sense as scum? and dunn is being lol dunn

[Datisi]

Show me where I've treated anyone "shitty" or been "disrespectful" - otherwise, face your demise for flagrant scummy opportunism!

how is he being opportunistic?

[Datisi]

Show me where I've treated anyone "shitty" or been "disrespectful" - otherwise, face your demise for flagrant scummy opportunism!

how is he being opportunistic?

trying to get me and rtp to clash again because potentially we are both town and it means a scum elim is less likely. slimy tactics, but GC plays to win no matter what.

gimme a snap BM-read btw?

don't really see it. i skipped pretty much all your and rtp posts from last night because i was not in the headspace to read that, but i did actually go back to see, and threatening policy is like... not very nice?

(also i see there's stuff potentially brewing rn and i'd ask you to Not escalate)

snap bm-read bm probtown as i've said before?

[Datisi]

#1500 nice

[Datisi]

green, i don't think you answered my q in 1127?

you aren't null, you're mid-tier town

cool, why?

if im like 0/5 literally deleting this account LOL

i've seen you make promises like these before
they are nothing but lies

ive hit this point of serenity where I feel as though now I want nothing more than a flip to happen.

to quote baltar quoting datisi, this is a mood.

And I’m looking at you {Elements, Datisi} in particular to reconsider away from maxwell - that’s a crap wagon honestly.

why is it a crap wagon? i don't think i've yet to see something that said townie to me from max and i remember harumi being one of my first scummy gutpings this game.

@elements why are you voting lotus now?

ok gotta edit this votecount again now

Elements (3): Dunnstral, RLotus, Battle Mage
Green Crayons (2): maxwell, andres
maxwell (1): Datisi
Reformed Toxic Player (1): Green Crayons
VP Baltar (1): Duchess
italiano (1): Reformed Toxic Player
midway (1): italiano
lotus (1): elements
dunn (1): baltar

Not Voting (1): midwaybear

i have a weird bad feeling from both the top wagons. like, neither are even trying to shift their trajectory onto voting the other.
but then the fuck is scum doing with the wagons being as scrambled as this?
wish i knew how to do vca

ok uhhh
VOTE: italiano

my levels of care are becoming lower and since i'm town on duchess anyway, i don't particularly care to wait to see who replaces them

[Datisi]

he was talking about my prior vote on max. which like, i disagree with it being wasted, because scum's gotta be somewhere, and at this point i don't have a problem voting for someone i don't townread. you never know what happens there. though kind of moot since i'm not voting there anymore but whatever.

[Datisi]

jungle oligarchy would beg to differ

[Datisi]

We clearly have different philosophies about what makes sense

why does this feel like a lowkey insult

[Datisi]

room-temperature take: italiano is hoping that the "i give up" ate makes townies defend him / reconsider

also if he flips scum i'd bet good

money

brownie points that he's being bussed rn

[Datisi]

Can understand Datisi's points agauinst Italiano decently well although I've some reservations based on a few posts I thought were townish, if it came down to it I don't think I'd oppose a compromise vote there.

did anything change from there to here?

[Datisi]

Can understand Datisi's points agauinst Italiano decently well although I've some reservations based on a few posts I thought were townish, if it came down to it I don't think I'd oppose a compromise vote there.

did anything change from there to here?

Nope, my position is pretty much the same now as it was then, but time is short and that seems to be where people have moved.

then what is the problem

also lol imagine italiano actually accusing someone voting for him of being scum?

[Datisi]

Are you asking me why I'm not voting him right now?

more or less, yeah.

People are smart they’ll figure it out.

so you *are* being bussed, thanks!

[Datisi]

It’s the dismissive attitude (and the appearance of piling on hard) that will be tough to overlook if wrong. That’s all I’m telling you. I never understand these seemingly smug statements D1.

lol what about my attitude is scummy here? also like i've been voting/scumreading italiano for a Good portion of day 1 so i don't get your piling on comment?

[Datisi]

why is this day not over

also we're still waiting on two (2) replacements, so i'm assuming deadline gets paused soon and that there won't be much action until then

[Datisi]

Not me

do you townread max?

[Datisi]

-_-

[Datisi]

i've been fighting for the italiano wagon the whole day, no thanks

do you still think italiano is town?

[Datisi]

i mean like
ok

let's imagine town!italiano for a moment. from his pov, you got me. this annoying fucker who keeps calling you scum right. you're being voted. you go "ok vote me out then catch the scum on my wagon on day 2". who is scum on his wagon? no clue. his green flip will "give insight" on those who weren't on him. what insight? none.

like if you're town and you're being voted you already know your own alignment you know the votes are wrong. if you're showing some thought about the game ("there's scum on my wagon") then surely you're actually thinking about who tf is the scum on your wagon. and i'm trying to get it out of him, like i'm trying to provoke him into actually giving a response.

(a) in response, he actually gives insight on who he thinks is scum, who isn't scum, shows any sign of a will to live, or even tells me to go fuck myself, idk literally anything
(b) he shuts down, goes "people will figure it out", and shuts up again bc of fear of spweing partners

what do you think, which way does (b) cut?

[Datisi]

balanced with his articulated suspicions

i'm lazy, can you remind/link me?

[Datisi]

if he had something to claim, he would have already. also the whole mindset of "fine elim me then look at my wagon for scum" spews him as non-tpr. jic anyone has bright ideas about counterclaiming.

[Datisi]

yikes @ the flip. though if he had at that point claimed, i would've forced the flip through because i was pretty certain his behaviour was non-tpr indicative. lol.

Dunn and midwaybear are scum together imo

are these associates or just individual scumminess?

The wagon was the obvious conclusion for the day and yet was stalled for quite awhile, so much so that italiano self hammered as a cop.....

i dunno how much can be learned from this though, considering we had two (?) empty slots at eod.

Top of page 37

no, it's top of page 71

@whoever, what's the amished stuff about?

pedit: thanks

in retrospect i don't like dunn's vote on midway at eod. it was kinda clear at that point that italiano *was* going to flip. dunn was mia when italiano's wagon was being built (looking through his iso, the only substantial mention i can find is the vague positiveness in 1441), but once it's a foregone conclusion, nah gonna ignore it and vote midway. lowkey feels like scum wanted towncred for being off-wagon without actually doing anything to stop the wagon.

VOTE: dunn

dunn, can i get a readslist or something from you?

[Datisi]

i believe that's Y-1, just fyi.

[Datisi]

Also, how are VPB and Datisi your strongest TRs? That’s nonsensical. I don’t think both are Scum I’ll say that. But your strongest TRs? Really? RTP was leaning more positively on VPB, so I can maybe see that one. Datisi? No chance in hell. You’re just not reading then.

yo, what's with this shade? outside of the start of the day, rtp was consistently townreading me, and i wasn't in either of the PoEs they put out before day end, so what's your point here? also i believe you haven't answered me some stuff from yesterday.

[Datisi]

+1 to obviously we're not blindly yeeting dunn less than 24hours in, and if anyone had lolhammered a green flip, they get policied tomorrow. so like what's the panic.

[Datisi]

outside of the start of the day, rtp was consistently townreading me

This isn’t strictly true, since they actually were voting you at one point.

nope, that's true. i was an rvs vote (that's the only time they voted me), which they kept for a little bit, then decided i'm probtown and never included me in the poe. so.

[Datisi]

also i believe you haven't answered me some stuff from yesterday.

If you want an answer to something ask it now. I am not going to go back and look for questions I may have missed.

the "oh if italiano flips then datisi looks bad bc datisi was smug" (i think) stuff. like *why* is that scummy to you

[Datisi]

???
i'm not trying to "end the day quickly", i'm voting who i find suspicious, and i already said if there's a lolhammer they're getting policied tomorrow

[Datisi]

it was start/early day i believe, that's my point. iirc, wasn't in either poes they put out (the before and after hammer one) and i don't think they mentioned scum!me for a whike before that either. (correct me if i'm wrong, i'm working on sleep deprived memory atm)

pedit i'm not reading

[Datisi]

andres, that's not what i'm arguing. i'm arguing tehy had me consistently as town *after a certain point* - i believe it was somewhere around me voting them, or a bit later. like i k n o w they suspected me for a while on d1

[Datisi]

ok. i misremembered. it wasn't for a little bit, they showed *some* suspicion on me for a while. i remembered 275 as being close to the end of their scumlean on me, bc i forgot about the "oh datisi/baltar reacted quickly to suspicion, scum there if these are red" bit. sorry, i'm running on fumes, and it was a while ago.

i'm saying that at *some point* (which i thought was closer to start of day 1, but turns out is around the middle) rtp switched their read of me, and was consistent in it until eod. which brings me back to asking why are you singling me out like that, acting as if they didn't have a townread on me at all. (and like, i'm going with the assumption that someone's reads in the later part of the day trump those in the earlier part.)

[Datisi]

the "oh if italiano flips then datisi looks bad bc datisi was smug" (i think) stuff. like *why* is that scummy to you

You were clearly trying to convince whoever expressed any doubt that Italiano was Scum. And you did it repeatedly. Even making the argument that if they were Town, they weren’t that useful (implicitly - particularly in that long post I quoted on this page), so what’s the harm? Why would I TR you for all of that?

yes. yes i did because i thought he was scum. and don't put words in my mouth, i didn't say you should/need to townread me for that. i'm asking why is it scummy. if you think my arguments were bad, fine, say that and let's discuss it, but i don't feel like that's the argument you're making?

[Datisi]

which brings me back to asking why are you singling me out like that, acting as if they didn't have a townread on me at all. (and like, i'm going with the assumption that someone's reads in the later part of the day trump those in the earlier part.)

I’m not just singling you out. But you’re voting Dunn while thinking everything is good and dandy when you were so obviously wrong D1 and you don’t seem to even want to re-evaluate what happened. I would say that applies to a lot of the Dunn voters who’ve remained where they are actually. And you were vocal and wrong - and seemed smug about it. You should feel the need to re-read and make some arguments and you’ve made a basic one about Dunn and that’s it. Do you agree with RLotus that there’s few chances of there being Scum on the Italiano wagon? Do you really believe that’s the universe we’re in right now? And what are the rest of your reads?

it looked like you were singling me out in 1779 with an argument that i couldn't make sense of (bc rtp's read on both me and baltar was similar later in the day). ok, i was wrong day on day one. i partly did reevaluate - dunn's post on midway looks bad with italiano's flip, dunn's read on italiano, and dunn's amount of effort spent in trying to convince others of that read on italiano (zero), which sunk them lower than the previous "lol lurk coinflip". you're making assumptions on how i play. i think we need *more* info right now rather than rehashing the old - let's see the newcomers catch up, and let's put some pressure on the person i find suspicious.

here's a take: i don't have a clue. i'm a moron for vca on best of days, and here i feel like both sides of the argument could be made fairly easily - scum voted bc italiano misyeet vs scum didn't vote bc didn't wanna get on a dirty misyeet wagon. i don't know which one is true, i'm not gonna pretend i do. i don't solve like that, i'm going to be looking at individual actions rather than trying to big brain the amount of scum on or off wagon.

like, i'm probably gonna go back and reskim parts of d1 to get a better idea of what might have happened. but i'm also not going to wait to push things i find suspicious *right now* - as soon as there's no lolhammer cutting the day short, there is no downside to pressuring dunn now.

if you think my arguments were bad, fine, say that and let's discuss it, but i don't feel like that's the argument you're making?

What is there to discuss? Italiano is dead and it’s in large part because of you. So unless you want to actually express some more detailed reads all around, why would I not put you on the spot? You deserve it.

you didn't like my push on italiano. ok. italiano flipped green i was wrong. ok no shit. i'm asking how/why you're reading it as scum shitpush vs town genuinepush. like i'm not saying i shouldn't be put on the spot. i'm asking to see your thought process.

[Datisi]

andre, can you talk to me how 1810 follows into a green crayons vote? like i feel like i'm hearing you say that the wagon was pushed/voted by scum, and you're talking about scum sealing yesterday's outcome, i don't think green played a part in that at all?

[Datisi]

you didn't like my push on italiano. ok. italiano flipped green i was wrong. ok no shit. i'm asking how/why you're reading it as scum shitpush vs town genuinepush. like i'm not saying i shouldn't be put on the spot. i'm asking to see your thought process.

I just hate your smugness about it. I do. Green Crayons and VPB both expressed doubts (which btw makes me thing you’re the one with the genuine push and they’re the potential Scum), but I’m getting constantly annoyed about being in these games and not really being able to form a solid Town core early. I dislike that you didn’t re-evaluate there at all even after Italiano’s emotional content skyrocketed, and were so dismissive about the whole thing.

ok so i was working under the assumption that you hating my smugness = scumreading it but now i'm confused. can you lay out what's your read on me right now?

here's the thing, i'm horrible at reading emotions. i've lost games because i'd look at someone who was being emotional and i'd townread it and those people would sometimes turn out to be scum and i try really really hard to consciously ignore ~emotional stuff~ when forming my reads because i am ass at evaluating the genuiness of it.

i don't think green played a part in that at all?

If I remember correctly, RTP’s strongest SR was GC, and they were in most of their solves.

i'm thinking about their second(?) most recent poe, which was i think 5 people, and green wasn't in it
actually let me check fuck
ok yeah i'm thinking of 1580 ok i remember something at least

but i think my question still stands. you seem to insist on going back and keep calling the wagon bad - who do you think is the scum on it then?

pedits will be read later
please let me post

[Datisi]

Post 1378 and Post 1429 echoed suspicions i had about RTP at the time.

i've put a pause on my RTP suspicions for reasons, so this is a "other player voiced reasons to suspect RTP that mirrored my own reasons" read

And once Italiano becomes a near certainty, this comes out? And you’re not suspicious?

no? wasn't green like consistently calling italiano town throughout most of (the important/relevant part of) d1?

and like, as green was a possible wagon at some point close to eod1 (fuck if i remember at which point), i kept an eye out on possible opportunistically-on-italiano posts, i don't remember thinking i saw any. that quote does look ~ehhh when quoted by itself, i'll have to reread the context around it to see what i was thinking. which is gonna happen later bc i am not in the brainspace right now. also dinner. cheers.

[Datisi]

ok so i was working under the assumption that you hating my smugness = scumreading it but now i'm confused. can you lay out what's your read on me right now?

I’m skeptical that you have the game right, I don’t think Dunn will flip Scum, and I’m just generally annoyed that there’s so much... passivity in this game. I don’t have you as Scum right now. But I don’t like arguments that are easily disproven either. Trying to discredit me by making an argument that was false IS annoying. I am not just blindly going to follow along here. I want to see people be aggressive and push to figure out what’s going on. 6 votes so quickly on Dunn - does that seem like an engaged Town to you?

lol, sorry about that. my point was never that rtp never suspected me, just that they didn't suspect me in the later part of d1. fwiw, i wouldn't intentionally make a dumbass easily-disproven argument as scum either, because it's stupid and easily disproven. i just forgot how big the "later" part is.

that said i'm still not satisfied with your response. if you don't have me as scum, why was your reaction so (for a lack of a better word) sour in 1779 when talking about me?

I'm not sure. I actually voted him because I saw that he was a viable wagon from 1602.
I was still townreading Elements, and didn't really have an opinion on GC at the time.

midway do you have any reads

oooo a pagetop
I'll catch up tomorrow

has your opinion of lotus shifted in any way since yesterday?

[Datisi]

hi dunn can you acknowledge my 1757 ok thanks bye

[Datisi]

yes, yes i was actually

like i asked you, maybe even multiple times idr anymore, what are your thoughts / why they are the way they are

the one post i was able to find on italiano from you is that you townread them / didn't scumread them - i'd have expected to see some sorta conviction behind it if it were a real read?

it looks like you didn't really care about that wagon building (bc you did nothing to try to alter it) but jumped in at the very end of day to make sure to show you were not voting italiano

also like, the above post is kinda false?? like there were 5 votes on him, 6 if you count maxwell who was all but voting, and italiano implying he was gonna self-hammer. did you really think he was about to claim??

actually checking back, him saying he wasn't gonna claim happened *before* your vote on midway

so like

what's up

[Datisi]

Aight I’m done. Make it happen max, so I can finally end this day.

if he had something to claim, he would have already.

Not claiming.

it was literally a couple of posts above your vote on midway

i don't think it's fair to say "not my fault nobody cared" when it's kinda obvious you didn't *try* to convince anyone

[Datisi]

dunn, can i get a readslist or something from you?

[Datisi]

I think midway looks bad and vp baltar's push coming into day 2 looks bad

And that there's probably scum who jumped on me today

why does baltar's push today look bad? (i'm assuming you're talking the one on you)

who is scum jumping on you?

Are you really arguing that Dunn had a strong enough voice D1 to direct what was going to happen? That seems misguided to me.

no, i'm not arguing that. i'm arguing that at no point dunn even tried to influence what was happening in the game. there were question thrown at them, there were opportunities to get their voice heard on d1, i don't mean just at the eod stretch, it was throughout the whole day. what i specifically referred to that is dunn saying he liked something italiano did while the wagon was forming there - it's one barebonish line, and then again disappearence. it'd be weird to expect people to actually follow you on that when you're not trying, obviously. but i think going "well lol not my fault they weren't listening to me" is scummy. it feels like he didn't actually *want* to convince anyone, that he was willing to let the wagon build without interference, then go with the "i told you so, not my fault y'all didn't listen to me" lines.

I counter by asking you who else was a viable yeet? As someone who tried to get traction other places, I assure you it was not easy.

If I remember correctly, deadline wasn’t some hours away. There was more than a full day left. My point is that with enough discussion, you never know what can happen. And there had been multiple votes for Green Crayons and RLotus even. Are you dismissing every other wagon that day as not viable? Because that seems laughable to me.

there is something rubbing me the wrong way about this, considering you were quick to yell at me yesterday when i was voting maxwell because "that wagon wasn't happening, we need to consolidate because it's majority, you're being anti-town by being on a 1-2 vote wagon". also like, at that point the game was pretty dead, with the day going for like 14 days.

[Datisi]

actually hold on, weren't you arguing against deadline flashwagons too or something?

[Datisi]

last minute wagons can materialize and hit scum idm datisi voting his heart

I have yet to see a CFD in this forum lead to Scum I have to say. But there’s always room for a surprise.

Obviously it’s not going to fail every time. But it always feels random to me. It leaves the game at the mercy of the most active players, and if you have good Scum, it leads to some bad conclusions typically.

hmm.

i have an idea right now but it's best explored later. anyway.

[Datisi]

@elements you haven't responded to me about your louts read

cookie's readslist feels awfully forced. i feel like the reads description was copy/pasted 10 times over because (other than the elements one) i feel like none of them are actually saying anything.

why/how are those posts from elements a scumslip?

[Datisi]

lol sorry! yes if my galaxy brain idea is right it will be today. i'll let you know, don't worry.

[Datisi]

hello i am Busy with Other Things so lowkey prodge incoming

cookie's readslist feels awfully forced. i feel like the reads description was copy/pasted 10 times over because (other than the elements one) i feel like none of them are actually saying anything.

Can you be more specific? What read doesn’t make sense to you? Like what is forced or insincere about it?

the only read that "doesn't make sense" to me is calling elements' posts scumslips. (nothing else "doesn't make sense" because imo nothing else even says anything.) it reads forced to me because it reads like they wanted to make a readslist on everyone, but they had no idea what to actually write, so they wrote that. like i don't see an actual explanation for anything. "gives me town vibes", "feels like actually solving the game", "feels like something is off", "doesn't sit well with me", without elaboration or examples, none of those sentences actually *mean* anything.

i'll get to your other stuff tomorrow. i'm decently confused about your recent posts, claiming you'd be

floored

if dats/baltar(/lotus) was all town, then turning around and calling that speculative because we're being loud and scum often isn't loud. i feel like i need to review your d1 again which i do not have the brain cells for right now

@cookie monster

can you please answer my 1898?

@midway, what do you find relatively townie about elements' recent play?

aight cheers

[Datisi]

i may be stupid
but i do not see duchess' reads post
elements pls link k thx

So for what reason am I still the leading wagon?

you've done zero (0) things that are town indicative
imagine
instead of going "why me???"
you answer something i asked (1895)
wow

1937 is townie kind of deja vu
too bad i already have a townread on that slot
oh well

i feel like i cannot progress this game without going back looking over things
i don't feel like doing that
wish people were posting but we have like 4 people in prod rande and some others lowkey prodging

sigh

[Datisi]

re: andres, i agree that maxwell was decently unlikely to gain traction yesterday. as were the vast majority of wagons, i think. i want to say how you're being hypocritical here because you weren't exactly asking people to consolidate with you on green, though the time between your vote there and your last post on d1 was some ~24 hours, so maybe that'd be unfair.

yeah, no shit the arguments were faulty, italiano flipped town.

i took a look at the vc's, and the earlier italiano wagon was some combination of me, lotus, harumi (maxwell), and rtp. the same 4 were on the final one, with the addition of baltar, midway, and italiano himself.

while i do agree there's probably at least one scumfuck on the final wagon, purely because it was a misyeet wagon (and i say this with less certaintly than i usually would due to it being a deadline crawl wagon and due to there also being a self-hammer), i don't think it necessarily has to be between the doublers (my reads on them notwithstanding, and i'm not saying this just because i'm one of them). town wagoning town happens, especially in that early labile environment where scum might decide to wait and see if there's a good opportunity before jumping onto something.

i feel like i'm reading... needless aggression from you here. not quite sure what to make of it, i'll have wait until you elaborate on your "there's scum in this group" vs "probably not because you're being loud" arguments. i don't get them.

[Datisi]

Because he's tunneled on it to a strange degree

And I appear to be his only scumread

do you think his read on you is faulty / bad faith? and do you think you've done something that should show you're town?

[Datisi]

ay yo baltar, is that italiano on/off wagon analysis still in the plan, or...?

[Datisi]

err, his wagon went to like y-1 shortly after daystart...?

[Datisi]

1921 from GC feels like a weird way to present a question
To answer it, I should be playing the same as long as my motivation is here. I was not really into the game for a lot of D1.
VOTE: Green Crayons

what is weird about it?

btw i think you still owe me your elements explanation

and yeah, there's not much going on *right now*. but weren't the unvotes solely because "oh no y-1 already ok let's unvote so no speedyeets"? like i don't think anyone has actually presented any sort of convincing argument that dunn is town. i don't think anyone townreads dunn. how do you go from there to "scum!dunn probably isn't worried"?

[Datisi]

If the gamestate is slow, it tends to favor scum. If Dunn is scum, we probably aren't going to get him today because him and his buddies are going to find a convincing alternative. Perhaps Cookie Monster.

isn't this true for like... any scum? like i don't get how that is supposed to be "clearing"

like you said i had a point about him on his vote. there are people trying to divert from his wagon. i find it weird that you're handwaving it on such... odd reasoning? like even if it follows that dunn is relaxed bc his buddies are working to drive attention away from him, are you not worried about people who are actively doing that?

[Datisi]

i'm not saying you townread him, but you acknowledged my point on his yesterday's vote on you being Not Good, so like i assumed there's at least some sorta scumlean there

if dunn is scum, then (off the top of my head) it would be andres (though maybe a bit too obvious...), max, you, maybe cookie/elements? like there's a few names there that'd need a Look

nothing happened to it, it's still in here. it's just very much not the right time for presenting it.

and like i was asking you, i don't get your reasoning here. like it seemed to me you were at least suspicious of dunnstral, right? like the fact you're kinda not acknowledging his today vote on you, and discouraging his wagon on such flimsy reasoning, doesn't give me good feels?

[Datisi]

came out of the d2 gate like a gunshot

are we reading the same game

[Datisi]

His vote on me is fine for the reasons he gave, but it is more of an interpretation thing that I don't want to get in an argument about. I hope he will see that I am town soon enough.

i wasn't arguing as if the "lol why am i still top wagon" is the crux of my dunn case anyway.

i am not actually sure what the above quote means? like yeah it's an interpretation thing and you agreed w me, no?

[Datisi]

came out of the d2 gate like a gunshot

are we reading the same game

relative to d1

dunn had a whole back and forth with mom, it was incredible. i think it lasted something like 5 posts

and it was a back and forth that went nowhere and said nothing so like idek

what's your current read on dunn again?

[Datisi]

i went to pour myself a glass of apple juice before sitting down at my laptop, but after i did that, i realized the juice got spoiled

i am now very sad and will have to do this apple-juice-less

His vote on me is fine for the reasons he gave, but it is more of an interpretation thing that I don't want to get in an argument about. I hope he will see that I am town soon enough.

i wasn't arguing as if the "lol why am i still top wagon" is the crux of my dunn case anyway.

i am not actually sure what the above quote means? like yeah it's an interpretation thing and you agreed w me, no?

What is the crux of your case, exactly? As far as I can tell, it's that Dunn didn't vote Italiano and made a useless vote on midwaybear near the end of the day. Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't really townread Dunn, but that's not...especially convincing?

that's... overly simplified.

- dunn had a bad case of lurk day one
- kept ignoring questions thrown his way
- had a post around mid day one where it seemed like he's town on italiano, but made absolutely no attempts of genuinely convincing anyone
- lurking up to deadline (i believe he got prodded around that time? not sure)
- once italiano wagon was basically a guarantee (i.e. he was literally implying he was going to hamer himself), popped in with a kinda weak midway vote
- the above looks bad when you notice that italiano flipped town, because it implies that dunn presented a townread, didn't try convincing anyone on it, and once it was guaranteed the wagon was going through, he voted somewhere else, in a very "scum staying off misyeet wagon for townpoints" fashion
- returns day two with like barely any reads, isn't showing much will to live, and is seriously questioning why he's top wagon
- also i really dislike his baltar shade(?)

like is this 100% slam dunk scumcase? no, i can see a few universes out there where this flips town. but like. individually, it's the best i got right now.

[Datisi]

k since yall prob gonna try to hammer this while im at work - ill just out my theory now ~ i will ellaborate on this tomorrow if im alive but if somehow italiano flips town, im looking at a crackpot theory of andres, maxwell, GC.


but the way italiano formed their reads list suggests they arent flipping town so im not too pressed about it, i just would rather do this in case im nightkilled and all.

This may not be entirely crackpot.

at which cracks in this pot are you looking at here?

(does that even make sense? you know what i mean)

[Datisi]

#2000

[Datisi]

I scum read Harumi who max replaced. I just got to his posts on the thread, but recent developments make me question if its scum theatere

can you elaborate on this?

what about his "attack" on duchess don't you like? (also iirc, he didn't even vote duchess?)

oh, you also said you don't think dunn is scum, right? tldr on that?

[Datisi]

Open 802 was me just kicking ass though MAAAAN.

thanks, i needed the laugh today.

[Datisi]

re: momrangal
you're definitely not gonna hear me arguing that baltar and max are partners, but those posts you pointed out don't really seem anti-partnery to me? like to me it reads as a relatively-easily-fakeable solving.

i don't think you responded to what i was more interested about. when/what push on duchess were you talking about?

i'll get to your other stuff tomorrow. i'm decently confused about your recent posts, claiming you'd be floored if dats/baltar(/lotus) was all town, then turning around and calling that speculative because we're being loud and scum often isn't loud. i feel like i need to review your d1 again which i do not have the brain cells for right now

I tried to explain this I believe but maybe I wasn’t clear. I would be floored if you were all Town in the universe that Dunn is Town. Because then that’s two consecutive executions of relatively easier players to push lead by a combination of the group I highlighted plus a few other actors.

right. but, you said it yourself you do not townread dunn. and that we're more likely town than not because we're loud. and all three of us have at least somewhat strong preferences for a dunn vote. would it not make sense to flip dunn here? if he's scum, it's a beautiful flip. if he's town, it's Not Great, but it rids of a null-scummish slot, and it would show that there is probably something very fucky going on in the town.

All right, that's fair enough, when you put it that way, I understand where you're coming from. I am hesitant because I've seen Dunn as lurking underwhelming town before and it doesn't feel far off from that here (plus I don't think his points about midway are bad!). I probably need to quit being lazy and take a broader view of the game at this point, it's just...daunting.

i mean, i don't necessarily think they're bad either, like midway is definitely not a shining beacon of towniness here. but it's not the points themselves, i don't think they're fakeable for scum!dunn, and it's more about the timing.

He didn't push duchess as a scumread at all and I'm not sure what you're seeing there exactly.

thonk

I still don't see scum in VPB and Datisi after reconsidering. After reading a couple VPB games, it seems like he has a tendency to try to discredit people pushing on him as town. At first I thought it was scummy, but I think that is town behavior for him.

I still have this lingering gut paranoia about him regardless. Maybe he could be a deepwolf here? I dunno I guess I can't shake the feeling I got day 1. Anyway, he's in my townblock.

This actually makes no sense to me. So I’m going to say I think it’s coming from Town.

I mean, you say that a player that is discrediting those that question them after they’ve made a consistently bad push, and gives you bad vibes, is in your Town block, but could be deep Scum? What Scum doesn’t try to take advantage of these points unless they’re taking about a Partner?

i don't understand this view at all. like, lotus is also one of the people that wants dunn dead. baltar is heavily helping out there. if you assume lotus!scum and baltar!town, why in the heck would lotus start trying to abuse the ~paranoia~ now?

At first, GC makes the point that Duchess is trying to defend a Partner, and that they’re both Scum.

could you link this? i'm scrolling around early green's iso, and i don't see it.

this wagon is giving me Bad vibes and the fact that andres' vote is the best one on it is not comforting

gotta run for a bit, be back Soon(tm)

[Datisi]

would it not make sense to flip dunn here?

I want to flip the player I Scum Read the most. Just because you all think that Dunn is Scum (I don’t find Dunn particularly convincing either way) does not mean that I have to agree. And I already have the sense that something is going on. Which is why I’m not going along. I don’t need to flip Dunn to confirm that.

ok, something is going on, probably, we're playing mafia. but you're claiming that we're probably town and that there's scum hiding behind us on the wagon. i assume you're still ~town on max, you know who else was on italiano yesterday? do you wanna guess where midway is voting right now?

i don't understand this view at all. like, lotus is also one of the people that wants dunn dead. baltar is heavily helping out there. if you assume lotus!scum and baltar!town, why in the heck would lotus start trying to abuse the ~paranoia~ now?

Did you even read what I wrote? I was arguing that RLotus is probably Town for that post, because the thought process behind the post is rather convoluted. I am not making an assumption that RLotus is Scum, and VPB is Town.

does "What Scum doesn’t try to take advantage of these points unless they’re taking about a Partner?" not mean "if lotus were scum, he'd turn on baltar"?

actually now that i type it out it does sound kinda convoluted but that's the first interpretation i got from that line

could you link this? i'm scrolling around early green's iso, and i don't see it.

Do you think Duchess and Italiano are scum together? Or that duchess was scum trying to pocket a low hanging fruit townie?

I toyed with the idea of maybe s/s, but that post I was quoting specifically feels more like s/t. Also on the aggression scale my Q to VD was so benign that I don’t think a scum would have felt compelled to preemptively attack it on behalf of another scum who hadn’t yet responded. Couple that with VD-scum turning around to vote Dutchess-scum seems unlikely though not out of the realm of reasonable strategy (this doesn’t seem like a quick elim game, in terms of attitude and no players that I know of who will insta hammer).

The very first sentence confirms what I’m saying. They “toyed with the idea” of Italiano and Duchess being both Scum, but after Italiano turns around and votes for Duchess, it appears to be less likely (but not that they leave themselves open by saying that it could just be “strategy”).

err, not sure it does? you claim that green was making a point that they're both scum, only to then drop it and reconsider later. but green was never actually pushing that, no? i saw this quote when skimming earlier, but it seemed to me like a completely internal thought process.

[Datisi]

ok so like

VOTE: green crayon

e-2

I don't like his push on me today

something something "and at this point i think a flip either way would be informative" 1967

dunn does not mention green at all in his scumreads
dunn contunuously ignores my questions towards him (dunno if there were others' too)
pops out of nowhere after like 36 hours of not playing to put this wagon at y-2 based on weaksauce not liking the way green is pushing on him today??

1921 from GC feels like a weird way to present a question
To answer it, I should be playing the same as long as my motivation is here. I was not really into the game for a lot of D1.
VOTE: Green Crayons

mentioned earlier that he was getting bad pings on green, never elaborated on, now is on wagon because ~feels like a weird way to present a question~

handwaves the dunn wagon, and apparently because the gamestate is dead, we're probably not getting dunn today if he's scum because his partners would interfere (but is that not true for any scum in such a gamestate?) but there are people interfering with his wagon? is there any suspicion towards them or that whole situation?? nope, he just finds dunn's vote on him "suspicious" but hopes dunn sees he's town soon enough ???

and momrangal, who's making lowkey faulty arguments at baltar and refusing to go into them and defeinding dunn on weak ass meta

like please
how is this wagon in any universe completely pure

[Datisi]

Why are you both running interference for Green Crayons? Every time I post or push there, you both [Datisi, VPB] come out of the woodwork to either intensely question my argument, or divert the conversation in some other direction. What’s going on?

i think dunn is scum and i'm trying to get him flipped

also i don't scumread green and am trying to figure out if i'm going wrong there, or if you're wrong, or if you're bullshitting scum, and what other way do i do that than probe and see what you're all about?

[Datisi]

while the refusal to claim is debatably (and agreeably) annoying, what is the scum motivation there? claim weak role that doesn't prove alignment unprompted, then refuse to claim target because ??? funsies? like what's the "scumclaim" here

[Datisi]

And c’mon Datisi you’re not this naive. Clearly claiming a PR unprompted is a Scum tactic you’ve seen before.

you're gonna have to refresh me on what exactly you're talking of here.

while the refusal to claim is debatably (and agreeably) annoying, what is the scum motivation there? claim weak role that doesn't prove alignment unprompted, then refuse to claim target because ??? funsies? like what's the "scumclaim" here

So there’s no Scum motivation behind claiming a PR, however weak it may be, to avoid execution? Just out the damn target it literally only speaks to who Green Crayons trusts and that’s it.

i mean (1) a plain neighbourizer is not saving anyone from getting executed (2) again, what is the scum motivation in hiding the target when it's obviously doing nothing but pissing you off? like, do you think green is fakeclaiming neighbourizer all together? which if so returns us to (1)

[Datisi]

i could argue "scum shooting that person and shutting down the hood" if i really wanted to but i agree the damage is miniscule enough to be ignored. that's not what i'm arguing. what is the scum!benefit of not revealing who they targeted here? you're the one claiming not revealing the n1 target is a scumclaim, i'm asking you to back that up.

pedit: i believe that's bending? i did some cursory glances at that game when i was in 2180 but i was not in it.

[Datisi]

but that again brings me to (1). neighbourizer is a role seen as both alignments. it's not an exclusively town role. it's not saving anyone.

[Datisi]

(1) ...if they have the crumb, why not?? (2) i don't know, because he thinks it's for the best??

like i get it. it's annoying. but are you implying green is not a neighbourizer at all? and is gonna be riding a neighbourless neighbourizer claim?? like i've seen wack shit before but come on

[Datisi]

Question: if a neighborizers dies, does the neighborhood break up?

i don't think so. i recall seeing a recent game where the hood remained open after the neighbourizer died.

[Datisi]

(1) ...if they have the crumb, why not?? (2) i don't know, because he thinks it's for the best??

Why are you so intent on defending crappy play? I don’t get it. What they’re doing is mechanically wrong. How can you not agree?

i agree!! i literally said i think it's annoying he's not claiming the hoodmate!! but what is the point!! *why* is that a scumclaim if he doesn't wanna claim it?? when the role is nai in the first place??

[Datisi]

boy, you're stubborn. i got neighbourized last night. there. hood claimed.

i'm biased against dunn because i think he's a scumfuck and i'm townreading the main people who voted against him, and i'm Not townreading some of the people that are painfully trying to divert attention.

i'm not trying to find excuses, i'm trying to understand your thought process behind claiming that "not revealing your hoodmate is a scumclaim".

i've questioned you on some of the other issues before, not sure if you replied. is there anything else you want me to comment on.

[Datisi]

????????????

do you genuinely think i'm scum with green, and we're faking a hood together to get him out of shit?

[Datisi]

like if i so desperately wanna tie my partner to me i claim masons with them??? or friendly neighbour??? or i fake a cop check??????? why in the ever loving fuck do i fake being neighbourized and think anything good comes from that?????

[Datisi]

if i may chime in, green said that they had me as town but also had me as a person who wouldn't get nightkilled. (as much as it pains me, i agree)

i did ask about the curated townblocc comment but i have no response yet.

also andres why are you unvoting? what's making you change your mind here?

[Datisi]

boy, you're stubborn.

Also, why is this your reaction? You agree that they should have claimed their target, but I’m the one who is stubborn? Ridiculous.

that's a videogame quote i felt like dropping there lol

but also my point still stands that not claiming hoodmate is far from a scumclaim and that you were overreacting. maybe i'm biased bc i knew and it was obvious to me that the hood existed. idk.

[Datisi]

v. {Duchess/Cookie Monster, RLotus, Dunnstral}*

also has lotus not been pushing on dunn as well?

[Datisi]

I did this exact play as a friendly neighbor when Datisi and Iconeum were hardcore town locked in a recent game.

Or was it the inverse? I can't remember

it was the inverse. and we were not, ico hadn't even posted at the time you sent him the message. also i started scumreading him as soon as he was posting and askdlkfh

what were were talking about again

He didn't push duchess as a scumread at all and I'm not sure what you're seeing there exactly.

thonk

No, really, I went back to Baltars ISO and...he didn't call Duchess scum or vote there.

i know. i vividly remember chatting with baltar about that and us agreeing that duchess' push is probably townie. the joke is that i have asked momrangal about that part of her reads not once, but twice now, and i'm still getting ignored.

I could vote Dunn since his vote on GC was that bad, could still see it coming from town, but would be shocked, shocked if {Dunn, midway, mom} contains 0 scum

*cough* dunno if 2062 got lost in the crossfire *cough*

Great. Anything useful to add?

lol why so aggressive?

pedit: oh lovely. mind talking about your read on baltar-easy-pushing-duchess?

[Datisi]

as someone who had the misfortune of playing scum against pure town hoods twice... that's exactly how they work

[Datisi]

So I've been getting tag teamed by GC and Datisi today. Who is the one orchestrating that in the pt?

neither of us is orchestrating it, we voted you individually before even mentioning you in the hood.

how's your read on baltar doing? anything else going anywhere?

[Datisi]

those quotes don't feel like attacks at all to me, especially compared to when i've actually seen scum!baltar attack someone, but alright.

@momrangal, can you tl;dr me on your reads on dunn, me, and andres?

[Datisi]

BM kind of checks out after that fight and votes elements again two days before deadline before lurking out. BM also had Italiano as "locktown" from super early on.

oh, i actually forgot about this. yeah, this slot is most likely town. i think this was around the time of the first major wagon on italiano, right? while it's theoretically possible that scum!bm decided to dismantle that for reasons, i don't think that's actually very likely. from what i've seen of bm's scumgame, he seemed like a line of least resistance scumplayer, and would probably just let the wagon be.

[Datisi]

yeah, went back to check, there were 3 votes on italiano on the last vc, he did vote dunn who was top wagon to ~make something happen~, but then decided to instead try to shift onto elements, who def wasn't top wagon. then after some chatting, went on to vote midway and argue w rtp. *definitely* doesn't remind of jungle oligarchy.

[Datisi]

Datisi, could I get your overall take on the wagon analysis since you poked me about it. Anything that feels like wrong conclusions to you?

it wasn't as inspiring to me as i had hoped, but let me see.

starting with 1976. i like your first assumption. i think there could be merit in yeeting on-wagon as opposed off-wagon today. while i do think it's a wagon that probably isn't scum-filled, both because of the way it came to be and because we have two flips on it already, it also very very likely wasn't pure. though i'd have to figure out if i have strong enough townreads on-wagon for a PoE that i'd think of being decent. also i was never good at vca so lel.

i already said (or at least implied somewhere, not sure) midway's vote is Not Good, and that he's prob my most likely pick for scum hiding behind loud voices. though reading this, it made me look through his iso, and i'm lowkey surprised how much his ~presence~ fell off after the inital burst.

on cursory glance, lotus still feels... *fine* to me? the townblocc proposed at the end of d1 (1442) is still somewhere around where i'm now, and assuming i'm not utter trash at this game, it feels dangerous to make such a proposal as scum if it's actually winning.

that said, the assumption of me not being utter trash is a dangerous one. probably worth looking back at his interactions with italiano, and especially if we decide to flip dunn today and he's green. huh, andres is getting to me it seems. also would definitely like to see more from him today about Recent Events.

maxwell i think i'm mindmelding on today, mostly about midway and about green's wagon, and he seems pretty genuine. rn i do agree he's the least scummy of the three.

jeez i already got distracted twice while typing this up

2165. agree on dunn. i decided to compare dunn and green's play around italiano, and yeah, dunn looks way worse. green made an effort to read italiano and elaborated on reasoning, while dunn's 1441 still feels like cookie cutter "calls misyeet bait town, doesn't do shit to actually convince anyone" scumpost.

skimming through, posts 1641 and 1645 from green did worry me at first, because they edge towards scum opportunism towards poor misyeetable italiano. however, thinking about it i actually think they're town indcative. i imagine scum in a similar situation would decide to either shade/attack the misyeet and get on the wagon, or continuously defend it, hope it goes through without them, and reap some townpoints for not being on the wagon. this achieves... neither? green voted max afterwards. *and* a few posts earlier (1624) he mentions how he prefers elements over italiano. those italiano posts feel unnecessary.

andres i'm still struggling on. his early d1 behaviour is still puzzling to me, and i wanna see what he presents going forward, bc i feel like there are some loose ends he hasn't tied up. i also get the feeling i'm falling back into the old trap of "his posts feel iioa-y, he's scum". though i disagree on that post being tmi, for the sole reason that he doesn't use it to push on me today. like he started of the day saying that while he did hate my smugness, it wasn't necessarily scum!indicative. like idunno, if that were scum!andres setting up a push on me on d2, i kinda don't see him... backing down from it like that?

momrangal town, duchess maybe town but where is cookie, etc

elements is... meh. i recall at some point thinking that they were acting anti-survivalistically by not exactly trying to vote their own possible counterwagons, but maybe they didn't need to if their buddies were helping out. idk. i wanna see more of them too, i believe they've been stalling on some reads explanations for like a week now.

tl;dr
on wagon - midway > lotus > max >...> baltar
off wagon - dunn > elements > ?? cookie/andres ?? > green > momrangal

probably 1 scum on wagon but also not feeling confident enough in that theory to start steering there atm. also i get the notion that relying on going back / rereading is gonna be less effective than getting new info.