Mini Normal 2205: RotITGBSMoD [game over!]

[Andresvmb]

But some of the slots that seem like easier pushes? Pooky and T3 absolutely fit that bill. T3 with the limited history and presence, and Pooky with the way they post.

[Andresvmb]

Look I don’t necessarily want to engage in this back and forth with you. I want some outside opinions. I want Insidious and Pooky and Asteria to comment.

[Andresvmb]

Your whining isn’t going to get you far. If you don’t want to read, then that’s on you. But if you actually want to spend time reading, and focus on someone who isn’t actually Town, maybe I would listen to you. So you think osuka is Scum?

[Andresvmb]

Alright I’m going to take a step back. I’ll let others chime in, and make a decision. I do think STD is a viable option today but I won’t push my point of view anymore. Let’s avoid RMH in the off chance that they’re actually the Town tracker and we get something useful there.

[Andresvmb]

That doesn’t mean I’m retracting my SR, but maybe the whining is getting to me a little bit.

[Andresvmb]

Alright Pooky I decided I’m not going to stand in the way of an execution of the Green Crayons slot. I think STD is more likely to flip Scum, but I can see your points.

[Andresvmb]

Where’s the vote right now?

[Andresvmb]

hi im town

Are you serious right now.

[Andresvmb]

You’ve replaced into an interesting slot. I’ll definitely withhold my vote until Koba can catch up.

[Andresvmb]

what if i claim gunsmith

That would be a direct Counterclaim of Andante.

[Andresvmb]

Why would you soft that? Instead of just claiming it?

[Andresvmb]

are you claiming gunsmith?

wouldn't you like to know

Well it’s actually gamethrowing not to if you are.

[Andresvmb]

are you claiming gunsmith?

wouldn't you like to know

Well it’s actually gamethrowing not to if you are.

id rather not full claim, actually.

You’re going to force me to have to vote you, so just do it...

[Andresvmb]

Like I had made up my mind about listening to Pooky who is clearly Town here, and you’re claiming PR and refusing to disclose more while softing Gunsmith. You’re almost forcing my hand.

[Andresvmb]

Well I’ll wait for Datisi’s vote count.

[Andresvmb]

So Andre is actually probably scum.
So is Anya.
Dk most likely town but at least will be shown later on.
Dragon is most likely town.

VOTE: Anya

Go here.

Why? Just curious what made you think this.

[Andresvmb]

where did everyone go :/

I fell asleep.

[Andresvmb]

RMH flipping Vanilla actually makes me feel better. He actually fake claimed under pressure as Town. Amazing.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: VFP

[Andresvmb]

Andante may have given up that scum have a roleblocker there and be scum.
I'll think about it.

well obv if koba is real, scum have a roleblocker

So I'm not scum then?...

wanna be the sr? I'm just thinking we may have better options, such as in andres/T3

Wait so you agree that RMH was actually playing Scummy, and you think I’m a good option? You’re like unreal.

[Andresvmb]

I shot at vfb

What's your explanation for vfp not dying then?

There are only 3 options.

I'm scum and doc saves me
I'm town and Dk is town and scum have a RB
I'm town and Dk is scum and they lied

Those are the 3 options we have right now.
Andante had the mindset that there

is

a roleblocker.

Easy and 1... 2... 3

Well, I suppose it fits with the idea that Koba wouldn’t mindlessly claim a weak modifier yesterday, and come out with a shot for someone that’s still alive and they’re still alive. But I can recognize what you’re saying here.

[Andresvmb]

@Andresvmb

, do you finish catch-up everything? I'm struggling with all the claims, want to know your povs.

Don’t you like hate me? Hahaha

[Andresvmb]

Well, the Neapolitan is an actual excellent claim if from Scum. They clearly weren’t going to get away with saying Vanilla Town because they’re instantly executed (the backtrack would look dreadful). Now, the Scum clearly had prepared to be investigated by a Gunsmith if the Gunsmith is Town, which could explain the excellent claim itself. Which would make Andante Town. But you would have to flip Asteria to really find out.

[Andresvmb]

The Non-Consecutive Night modifier makes it less likely that they actually have to provide information throughout the game, and since we’ve had a lot of claims they can probably guess who is Vanilla and who isn’t fairly well.

[Andresvmb]

I knew Pooky’s role was garbage hahaha it just didn’t strike me as likely. I think Pooky claimed something overpowered, and we need to really think about whether we let that live btw.

[Andresvmb]

My bottom three at the end of the day yesterday were {Asteria, VFP, Insidious}. I thought VFP was trying to chain me into an elimination there (I’ll try and look for the post).

[Andresvmb]

wait what

You claimed self-made PGO, double Vig. Like that was obviously a lie.

[Andresvmb]

wait what

You claimed self-made PGO, double Vig. Like that was obviously a lie.

I should have pressed you harder on it.

[Andresvmb]

if we're claiming how many guns we have.

I'm a town cowboy. I have two guns, I'm allowed to shoot up to two people a night or go into PGO mode and shoot two people who visit me, I'm looking for my horse who was stolen by a notorious horse-thief known as "Dutch Henry"

I'm a little sad here, Pooky lied about having two guns :/

Here, Andante highlighted it.

[Andresvmb]

Okay that shifting claim is definitely worth executing - I find that Town rarely engage in that gamesmanship. You claimed something that would make you less likely to get visited, and you presumably give guns away? C’mon now.

[Andresvmb]

The Non-Consecutive Night modifier makes it less likely that they actually have to provide information throughout the game, and since we’ve had a lot of claims they can probably guess who is Vanilla and who isn’t fairly well.

Asteria

claims having a night result, but don't share it yet.

Yeah I saw that. I would force a release of that information. They claim it’s a VT so it’s a risky ploy. I think we need a response there before anybody reveals anything further.

[Andresvmb]

So Andre is actually probably scum.
So is Anya.
Dk most likely town but at least will be shown later on.
Dragon is most likely town.

VOTE: Anya

Go here.

So Andre is actually probably scum.
So is Anya.
Dk most likely town but at least will be shown later on.
Dragon is most likely town.

VOTE: Anya

Go here.

Why? Just curious what made you think this.

1987 feels like you know Green is going to flip town and you're shifting blame onto Pooky ready for the flip.
I already had suspicions on you from your posts around, and during the shit show though.

Alright Pooky I decided I’m not going to stand in the way of an execution of the Green Crayons slot. I think STD is more likely to flip Scum, but I can see your points.

you quoted this one vfpppppppp

Yeah thats the one.

Here’s the sequence I was talking about regarding VFP.

[Andresvmb]

My bottom three at the end of the day yesterday were {Asteria, VFP, Insidious}. I thought VFP was trying to chain me into an elimination there (I’ll try and look for the post).

Wait,

InsidiousLemons

?? But you scumread

Save The Dragons

,

Robert M Hunter

and wanted to eliminate

Green Crayons/DkKoba

on Day 1? I don't recall you said that you scumread

InsidiousLemons

??

What you’re saying about GC / Koba can’t be true if I was being accused by VFP of defending there right? Check my ISO a little more carefully. I thought Pooky’s push there might have been convincing, but I resisted it initially. I also like Koba so I wanted to give them a chance.

[Andresvmb]

Okay that shifting claim is definitely worth executing - I find that Town rarely engage in that gamesmanship. You claimed something that would make you less likely to get visited, and you presumably give guns away? C’mon now.

ok but you know cowboys don't exist in normals right? lol

I checked PGO not Cowboy. Should have looked some more.

[Andresvmb]

My bottom three at the end of the day yesterday were {Asteria, VFP, Insidious}. I thought VFP was trying to chain me into an elimination there (I’ll try and look for the post).

Wait,

InsidiousLemons

?? But you scumread

Save The Dragons

,

Robert M Hunter

and wanted to eliminate

Green Crayons/DkKoba

on Day 1? I don't recall you said that you scumread

InsidiousLemons

??

What you’re saying about GC / Koba can’t be true if I was being accused by VFP of defending there right? Check my ISO a little more carefully. I thought Pooky’s push there might have been convincing, but I resisted it initially. I also like Koba so I wanted to give them a chance.

And no I didn’t SR Insidious in fact I actively TR them yesterday. That one is speculative I’ll grant you that. I can’t explain it properly yet.

[Andresvmb]

I think what would have made sense for Asteria to do is visit me. I actively pushed and SR the two players that are dead. Though I think anybody that’s rational will clearly see that I probably never shoot RMH here hahaha but that’s WIFOM so you all have to figure that one out.

[Andresvmb]

@Koba how much of the game have you read?

[Andresvmb]

Something is not adding up here though. If the Scum shot at the Tracker, it’s clearly because they intended for the Weak Vig to die, or shoot Town. No? Why would you bother Roleblocking the Vig if you think they Town will get no useful information out of them either way, since the Tracker is dead.

[Andresvmb]

So Koba was most likely not Roleblocked. That would be my conclusion.

[Andresvmb]

But if they weren’t Roleblocked, then why are they both alive? That’s just seems strange.

[Andresvmb]

dkkoba how do you come to the conclusion that mafia protected you to keep you alive because you're weak targeting them and also protected themselves

that's so much tinfoil that i have plate armour sounds like meatballs to me

I mean Anya is right to be honest.

[Andresvmb]

scum could just be immune to shots and can doc save me to give me confused results.

they killed the tracker claim for a reason!!!!

Being immune to a shot still means your action goes through no? Like if you targeted a Mafia with a Bulletproof vest, wouldn’t you die anyway?

[Andresvmb]

seems very unlikely to have all 3. if weak vig is indeed killed by a roleblocker, then that would make VFP scum who got rolestopped by their buddy, assuming koba's claim is real. unless my brain is short circuiting which it may well be

And actually you would get Rolestopped by your fellow Scum if you don’t want to be targeted by any Town PRs in case you are committing the NK or you’re not Vanilla.

[Andresvmb]

Isn’t VFP just the logical execution here? I really doubt Koba pulls that claim out of their ass. It doesn’t make sense - it’s too risky in a setup with a claimed Gunsmith and a Mafia Doctor like clearly Vig makes sense as a role that exists.

[Andresvmb]

Um that was clearly a joke. Don't like that you're pushing that at all

You can go back and look at my live reaction at the time - I clearly took it seriously then, not just now. I now realize I need to not take anything Pooky says seriously, but we haven’t played before, so it takes some adjusting.

[Andresvmb]

I'm not too sure honestly. Sometimes it really just comes to scum didn't do the ideal thing. If Koba really is scum though we'll find out soon I'm sure.

Okay yeah sometimes the Scum don’t do the ideal thing. But this one is pretty straightforward. A Town fake claiming and maintaining that claim for the rest of the day is not an entirely common occurrence - it usually gets found out or retracted quickly. I think my conclusion is pretty straightforward - if the Tracker is dead, what the weak Vig does is irrelevant. You let them shoot because if they shoot wrong, they kill Town. If they shoot right, they die. Or at the very least, it appears the Scum acted with this thought process in mind. C’mon, nothing else explains why RMH is dead, let’s get real. It was very obviously tied to their claim.

[Andresvmb]

(But so far you're pushing 2 of the 3 town PR claims, just keeping note of that)

I think you’re neglecting to mention the very obvious mitigant that one of the claims was fake, and I very obviously didn’t believe it and called it Scummy (which, btw, I was right about). You can say whatever, but that’s the fact.

And if you want to call me Scummy, just do it. Don’t do this chicken shit thing where you shade me by “taking note” of something I’m doing but not saying what you mean.

[Andresvmb]

Also @Asteria you should out your result. I think it’s time. It clears a player. Like why not do it? They would either exactly be the Mafia Doctor, a Traitor right, or Town. And the odds that you hit the Mafia Doctor aren’t particularly high. I don’t know that I fully understand the logic of not revealing it. The idea that it will potentially catch a Scum fake claiming seems really far fetched - given the claims we’ve gotten already, I wouldn’t fake claim anything as Scum unless I was certain it wouldn’t get CC’ed, and that’s really difficult.

[Andresvmb]

I mean Neaps can't get false innocents.

they can get false guilties.

a VT result from a Neapo is guaranteed VT, there's no role that messes with a Neapo's result.

Except maybe

THE ONE RING

Yeah so in this setup it most likely clears someone. Why wouldn’t we want to know that?

[Andresvmb]

Actually mechanically, we have a Scum between Koba and Asteria.

[Andresvmb]

Okay no maybe not. If Koba was RB’ed, then theoretically I guess not. I don’t see why the Scum would have done that, unless they don’t believe the Modifier to begin with I guess, but that’s the only alternative.

[Andresvmb]

Koba claims to have shot at VFP. They’re both alive. So some stopping ability occurred. But Asteria was able to check VFP, and has ruled them as Vanilla.

[Andresvmb]

So VFP was

not

Rolestopped, unless one of them is lying (and almost certainly Scum).

[Andresvmb]

Which almost certainly means that one of {Asteria, Koba} is Scum.

If there’s a Town RB, you probably never block Koba there. I would think. I can’t think of a good reason you would, unless you thought they were Scum and lying about their role.

[Andresvmb]

So we’re down to the only solution, if everyone is Town, is that we have a Scum RB. I guess that’s some information.

[Andresvmb]

o_o
I think this is a much safer vote. VOTE: Andre

This is safer if you want to execute Town, sure.

[Andresvmb]

I am trying to figure out if Asteria and VFP as Scum tie themselves together here. It would be bold.

I’m going to flip Town. Koba might resolve themselves but if the Scum have an RB, maybe it doesn’t at all. And if that’s the case, they’re going to see pressure tomorrow. And if that goes through, that’s what, ELo?

[Andresvmb]

who do you think is wolf for play and outside of all this role shenaniganary though they're probably loving all these asteroids flying all over the place when the real threat is the death star

I have already shared this prior to these claims.

[Andresvmb]

Like you have my views unaffected by the claims. By play, I would execute VFP. I’m finding it fascinating that the check was there. It’s even more interesting that Koba decided to claim to have shot there.

[Andresvmb]

My instinct is that this isn’t all just coincidence. That just seems absurd.

[Andresvmb]

Like the Scum either really want VFP dead, or the Scum really want to protect VFP.

[Andresvmb]

I can’t find a really strong justification for the first one, and since it doesn’t quite square with a VT Claim and check, I’m leaning towards the second.

[Andresvmb]

who's the wolf that really wants vfp dead in that scenario? dkkoba's check honestly means nothing bc neither them or vfp died, it just means they were roleblocked or are lying

Koba would have to be lying and be Scum.

[Andresvmb]

who's the wolf that really wants vfp dead in that scenario? dkkoba's check honestly means nothing bc neither them or vfp died, it just means they were roleblocked or are lying

Yeah but if they were RB’ed, they are Town then. And the Scum is trying to do what, exactly? I guess let us all fight over it? I don’t know just mechanically I’m having a hard time dismissing all of this as Town just concentrating all around one player and it be completely nothing even though everyone is still alive.

[Andresvmb]

The part that makes what Koba is saying make even more sense is the fact that a lot of folks came out with strong pushes against VFP, including Andante. If Asteria had come out with their check at the beginning of the day and cleared them, I would be thinking about this very differently. All of this just

feels

convenient.

[Andresvmb]

Koba they wouldn’t have flipped though, you would have. See that’s the thing I don’t get. Why didn’t they just let you shoot? They could have easily WIFOM’ed out of that, argued that I looked the worst or something.

[Andresvmb]

Andante made a strong statement towards the end of the day that Dragons being Town heavily implied that VFP is Scum. But Koba didn’t directly acknowledge that.

[Andresvmb]

So it's either

VFP

or

Asteria

?

What I want to know is that one's flip from between these two will confirm the other's role?

VFP flipping VT probably speaks positively to Asteria’s Claim but isn’t clearing. Frankly nothing clears anybody here. Koba flipping Weak Vig would just tell us that the Scum have an RB.

[Andresvmb]

I mean yeah Andante I agree with you. I think the timing is suspect. I’m just trying to think logically through this.

[Andresvmb]

Koba they wouldn’t have flipped though, you would have. See that’s the thing I don’t get. Why didn’t they just let you shoot? They could have easily WIFOM’ed out of that, argued that I looked the worst or something.

This theory makes

VFP

scum if

DkKoba

is town and roleblocked.

But only if the Scum knew that the Town would have figured out that Koba intended to shoot VFP. I’m not convinced that’s the case. Does that make sense?

[Andresvmb]

I mean yeah Andante I agree with you. I think the timing is suspect. I’m just trying to think logically through this.

same, cause logically yeeting a pr is a stupid idea, but like, ahhhhhh idk, why would scum inno their own partner, and I'm trying to think who dies tonight, neo 100% livescause it's non consecutive, I die, vig roleblocked again? so night kill won't help anything

I have definitely seen games were the Scum tie themselves together. That wouldn’t surprise me. If the Scum think they can buy like two days with it, absolutely.

[Andresvmb]

@Everyone

, should

Andante

reveal the name who she checked at the previous night atm?

Yeah we do need this information.

[Andresvmb]

@Everyone

, should

Andante

reveal the name who she checked at the previous night atm?

Yeah we do need this information.

I already outed it

You did? I missed it. Just quote the post for me.

[Andresvmb]

it made perfect sense to roleblock vig there, I mean, they decided to kill tracker over me, so I see their thought process a bit lmao.

But it’s a weak Vig. If they shoot wrong, Town dies. Yeah the Vig is confirmed as existing and probably clears Koba. But so what? You have an extra Town death. If the Vig targets Scum, they die. And since Koba didn’t definitively say this is what I’m doing, then they could have WIFOM’ed out of that, or just let the Town speculate.

[Andresvmb]

I’m just not getting the decision at all hahaha not what I would have done.

[Andresvmb]

it was pooky not gunned

Ah you hinted at that, got it. I remember that.

[Andresvmb]

What the Scum could have been thinking (but this is a massive trade-off) is that if Koba shoots incorrectly, and is cleared, then if they more firmly indicate where they’re shooting, it absolutely condemns someone if Koba comes out dead the following day. But I just don’t understand that. Clearly they have an RB. Until they make themselves obvious with their shot, you let them shoot. It’s negative utility. That’s just how I see it.

[Andresvmb]

Wait so basically Pooky is Town almost for sure unless Traitor right? Might be interesting to see how that wagon was building yesterday.

[Andresvmb]

What the Scum could have been thinking (but this is a massive trade-off) is that if Koba shoots incorrectly, and is cleared, then if they more firmly indicate where they’re shooting, it absolutely condemns someone if Koba comes out dead the following day. But I just don’t understand that. Clearly they have an RB. Until they make themselves obvious with their shot, you let them shoot. It’s negative utility. That’s just how I see it.

you're currently sounding like traitor pissed at your scum partners, and are trying to tell them to not roleblock Koba again. I could be wrong, but it just really feels like you're the traitor, with the number of times you keep saying this.

You must think I’m an idiot.

[Andresvmb]

What the Scum could have been thinking (but this is a massive trade-off) is that if Koba shoots incorrectly, and is cleared, then if they more firmly indicate where they’re shooting, it absolutely condemns someone if Koba comes out dead the following day. But I just don’t understand that. Clearly they have an RB. Until they make themselves obvious with their shot, you let them shoot. It’s negative utility. That’s just how I see it.

you're currently sounding like traitor pissed at your scum partners, and are trying to tell them to not roleblock Koba again. I could be wrong, but it just really feels like you're the traitor, with the number of times you keep saying this.

You must think I’m an idiot.

If I’m Traitor pissed at my Scum Partners, I don’t put out all of the logic out there to get them to rethink their actions when it’s too late to affect the outcome. I just eat it.

[Andresvmb]

no, not at all, whoever killed the tracker was not the smartest lmao so if that wasn't you, you're good! I'm just saying, you sound like the angry traitor XD

I was openly dismissive of the Tracker Claim, strongly fighting the slot, and calling them Scum. I never shoot there. You must realize there aren’t a lot of situation a Scum containing me shoots there N1.

[Andresvmb]

Which almost certainly means that one of {Asteria, Koba} is Scum.

If there’s a Town RB, you probably never block Koba there. I would think. I can’t think of a good reason you would, unless you thought they were Scum and lying about their role.

Nope, Koba could have been roleblocked by scum. Scum wanted to get the "tracker", roleblock the vig, leave the GS because in this case scum only have 1 gun anyway so it's not very likely they would get checked (maybe this is indicative of Andante townreading the gun holding scum?).

I'm having a hard time not seeing this in bad faith Andres. I'm reading it as you want town to eliminate a PR while scum goes ahead and NKs another.

My vote is on a vanilla role. Your interpretation is absurd on its face.

[Andresvmb]

Like either confirmed Vanilla or Scum. According to you.

[Andresvmb]

I can’t find a really strong justification for the first one, and since it doesn’t quite square with a VT Claim and check, I’m leaning towards the second.

VFP is town. If you're town try looking at the game with the assumption I am being honest here, even just temporarily

You’re defending a slot a lot of folks think is Scum. You’re asking me not to skeptical. I can’t do that.

[Andresvmb]

I need to think about this whole thing. Can somebody run down what they think it means if VFP flips VT? If VFP flips Scum, that’s really obvious. Asteria is Scum and we’re close to a victory. But if VFP flips Town?

[Andresvmb]

Which almost certainly means that one of {Asteria, Koba} is Scum.

If there’s a Town RB, you probably never block Koba there. I would think. I can’t think of a good reason you would, unless you thought they were Scum and lying about their role.

Nope, Koba could have been roleblocked by scum. Scum wanted to get the "tracker", roleblock the vig, leave the GS because in this case scum only have 1 gun anyway so it's not very likely they would get checked (maybe this is indicative of Andante townreading the gun holding scum?).

I'm having a hard time not seeing this in bad faith Andres. I'm reading it as you want town to eliminate a PR while scum goes ahead and NKs another.

My vote is on a vanilla role. Your interpretation is absurd on its face.

Yes, but you're still pushing the PR claims

Claiming PR is not immediately clearing. I don’t know why you think everyone just needs to ignore the PR claims or at the very least not try to make sense of them. And you’re also trying to get me executed and I’m Town so no I don’t trust you.

[Andresvmb]

I need to think about this whole thing. Can somebody run down what they think it means if VFP flips VT? If VFP flips Scum, that’s really obvious. Asteria is Scum and we’re close to a victory. But if VFP flips Town?

VFP will flip town. Which honestly proves nothing about me which is frustrating. People are saying I could be scum who is guessing who the VTs are to claim them.

I'm half inclined to tell you to just vote me if you're going to try to elim VFP instead. At least then you know VFP is town when I flip neapolitan and I doubt I survive to D4 to out my next results anyway

I’m asking about what it means for other people’s alignments. It wouldn’t clear you completely but it definitely buys you a day probably you know that.

[Andresvmb]

I'm half inclined to tell you to just vote me if you're going to try to elim VFP instead. At least then you know VFP is town when I flip neapolitan and I doubt I survive to D4 to out my next results anyway

Wanted to give that it's own post. If you end up set on VFP, elim me instead. You'll get more info that way, I won't survive to use my role again anyway

I don't think anyone is even voting vfp right now...

I am. I’m just trying to work through this. We don’t need to rush it.

Asteria does have a point, in that if we’re going to execute anyone, it would be Asteria. That definitively clears VFP, makes them IC. The reverse is not that positive utility. And it would dispel any idea that they’re both aligned as Scum obviously.

[Andresvmb]

Andres just scumming it up though.

I’m actively trying to understand what the hell is going on. I’m not going to apologize for asking questions.

VOTE: T3

[Andresvmb]

Like I posted 2685 before you said I’m trying to make an elimination that gives no information, which is bullshit.

[Andresvmb]

So the game is over so I can talk about it? I was super towny, gave T3 a super towny slot to sub into,
viewtopic.php?p=12717548&user_select%5B ... #p12717548

Just skimming their ISO of that game... compared to lines from this game... Like, I literally can not see T3 as town

HAHAHA

How did the Scum slip in the most obvious way I have ever seen, self-vote, disappear D1, and not get eliminated?! That is the saddest thing I have ever read.

[Andresvmb]

In that game indeed T3 had good contributions and some solid contributions, even if they missed the blatantly obvious in that game.

[Andresvmb]

In that game indeed T3 had good contributions and some solid contributions, even if they missed the blatantly obvious in that game.

Good contributions, solid thinking*

[Andresvmb]

And they indeed suspected one of the actual Scum correctly I believe. By play.

[Andresvmb]

That game is honestly a complete shit show. It’s actually quite entertaining.

[Andresvmb]

Asteria is employing a classic Scum play I have seen before. I can even point to the exact game. They are saying trust me, execute Andrés, and if Town, you can try me tomorrow. But things will be drastically different tomorrow. And they know it.

I’m happy executing {T3, Asteria}. They have all either hard TR each other, linked themselves mechanically, or tried to dissuade others from pushing in between them. I can’t understand it.

@Koba you better not be pocketing me here. I should be suspicious of you calling me Town so surely and under pressure when you’ve always been suspicious of me in games.

[Andresvmb]

That game is honestly a complete shit show. It’s actually quite entertaining.

lmao it's funny looking back, pissed me off way too much, I subbed out cause of that, and I've literally never subbed out before :/ I randomly tunneled a scum D1, they OMGUS'd me, the 2nd one slipped.. scum chat that game was beautiful, I love HOG so much

I might go find it, it’s so bad. It has to be the worst collective Scum play ever. Like a long post revealing their Partner, self-voting, and the day ending in a No execution?! How?! I have never seen such play before. Unbelievable. I can be self-critical at times, but I have never done

that

.

[Andresvmb]

lol HOG posted something that made 0 sense in the context, I don't think it revealed the partner, but it's like, it was a very obscure post that had everyone going like "whhhaaat??" lmao it was a funny game, but hey, T3 played that completely differently from this...

No they did! They were complaining about their Partner in the post and then their Partner flipped Scum, which is what actually ended up dooming the slot. It’s hilarious.

[Andresvmb]

Asking for a lot but can you guys trust me for a bit and help me out with eliming andres? Honestly I think I could do osuka too.

I don't want to elim T3 or pooky from my pool.

Salsa and anya I'm not particularly interested in eliming but I could compromise there.

Those are my options

dude, this is the definition of self preservation. 0 chance osuka kills robert there. wanna chop Andres and if he's town you go tomorrow?

Honestly sure, we can do andres today and if I'm wrong me tomorrow. Scum will kill me N3 anyway so at least then we get andres who I think has a good chance of flipping scum, and then the VFP clear will be believed.

(Also not self-preservation, frustration)

Like... out of everyone in the game that’s actually putting forth content, they have cleared Pooky and T3? I’m calling nonsense.

[Andresvmb]

I DID state my reason for voting STD.
My current solve would be Asteria STD and Robert

VOTE: Asteria

We could flip to Asteria.

Compomise: vote Asteria

Asteria is lying.

.wat.
VOTE: Asteria[/]
Strong tr on Anya now.

Asteria is hard town..

How does anyone even square this?

[Andresvmb]

T3, we'd love some explanations with your reads....

Salsa is a gutread. Asteria had a good reaction to being voted.

And this is the explanation?

There’s like no way this progression is legitimate yeah?

[Andresvmb]

Why is Asteria so uninterested in flipping T3? They had Robert and SMH as Scum, voted STD, and had them as a compromise vote. And yet, they have cleared them after they called them hard Town? How is that even remotely acceptable?

[Andresvmb]

Why is Asteria so uninterested in flipping T3? They had Robert and SMH as Scum, voted STD, and had them as a compromise vote. And yet, they have cleared them after they called them hard Town? How is that even remotely acceptable?

cause T3 is likely a partner.... Asteria isn't the powerful scum thus "get me first"

Yeah but you know I tend to think games are hard and the answers are never straightforward. I’m beginning to think there’s some setting up going on here. Though to be honest T3’s play looks pretty horrible from an ISO perspective but it could be completely uninterested Town.

[Andresvmb]

It’s just the read progression on Asteria is clearly off. I don’t think Town goes from being involved in a mis-execution with someone (both T3 and Asteria ultimately voted for STD), T3 mistrusted Asteria, to calling them

hard

Town purely based on a claim that is hard to independently verify and was done under pressure from a gambit.

[Andresvmb]

And in fact, they don’t even directly reference the Claim either. They just say that their reaction to being voted is the reason. It sounds completely made up.

[Andresvmb]

And Asteria clearing T3 just shows that they’re not looking at the slot particularly carefully. Like it doesn’t make sense. They don’t want to execute amongst the PRs, but the players they’re happy to leave off are Pooky and T3? Like c’mon now this truly doesn’t make sense.

[Andresvmb]

It strikes me as if someone here clearly has insider information. I don’t understand how any of this is possible otherwise.

[Andresvmb]

Asteria is employing a classic Scum play I have seen before. I can even point to the exact game. They are saying trust me, execute Andrés, and if Town, you can try me tomorrow. But things will be drastically different tomorrow. And they know it.

pretty sure ive done that at least once but i dont think you were in that game

I’ve seen an excellent Scum player do it against a Town player and I called them out on it the next day, and instead they succeeded in not getting killed. I almost rage quit it was spectacularly frustrating. I think I actually got executed in the end instead.

[Andresvmb]

It strikes me as if someone here clearly has insider information. I don’t understand how any of this is possible otherwise.

so the solution is just yeet Asteria since she seems to be in the center of it?

I think T3’s progression is more suspicious. They could be right about Asteria and Asteria just going wrong.

[Andresvmb]

Asteria is employing a classic Scum play I have seen before. I can even point to the exact game. They are saying trust me, execute Andrés, and if Town, you can try me tomorrow. But things will be drastically different tomorrow. And they know it.

pretty sure ive done that at least once but i dont think you were in that game

I’ve seen an excellent Scum player do it against a Town player and I called them out on it the next day, and instead they succeeded in not getting killed. I almost rage quit it was spectacularly frustrating. I think I actually got executed in the end instead.

https://forum.mafia451.com/t/sodope-maf ... =andresvmb

I actually went looking for it in my old forum and found it. In case you wanted to read it. Josh is the player that did it in that game.

[Andresvmb]

I also tr t3, based on knowing who they are as a player

Wait, why? Explain it to me.

[Andresvmb]

epicmafia

Maybe some more elaboration?

[Andresvmb]

but like u know i am good at reading LHF players usually - ive rallied against a bad d1 lhf lim too many times that went through that was town.

Yeah I know. So you think Asteria is the right execution then?

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Asteria

Alright fine.

[Andresvmb]

it looks like that slot somehow managed to only make shit posts so far! those are not to be confused with shitposts, which are not shit.

This is my favorite post all game. Next time I try to be sarcastic, I hope I have the ingenuity to come up with something like this.

[Andresvmb]

I've skimmed Andres ISO and I think he is scum. First,he is in my PoE. Second, it's almost like he's only posting content when asked. He isn't asking questions or doing anything, only responding to people when it directly involves him. That ppretty much sums up my scumread.

This is such superficial bullshit. It makes me sad.

[Andresvmb]

like, playing like "well if she is town, we know VFP town" I really feel like that's not the optimal plan here. ahhhhh

I disagree, actually. A Confirmed Town can be very useful. VFP’s contributions haven’t been great I mean they think I’m Scum for some reason but still.

[Andresvmb]

Well that flip definitely would have made for some unhappy scum.

VOTE: anya

like, what scum starts the day with this. I think she's flipping town

Well I would be posturing too if I had participated in a shot that turned out horribly.

[Andresvmb]

Yeah, but I'm not thinking about a T3 flip instead of Asteria anymore, like, I'm thinking about finding an actual scumread.

name starts with an a and ends in ndresvmb

I think your way of finding Scum is bad. Why do you think that only Scum reacts to mentions of their name? And do you think Town don’t get offended about being misread?

[Andresvmb]

Cause literally everyone on the Asteria train keeps saying she's flipping neo, I don't feel good about it... ahhh

no i dont think she'll flip nea. i'm saying that even IF she does, that's not a total loss

The one thing I do worry about is that the Scum are somewhat forced here to shoot the Neopolitan before Night 3. The problem is that if we don’t find any Scum at all, then we’re in ELo by then. Which is also a bit the genius of the play if coming from Scum. And if alive, you’re probably going to get a 1v1 at that point. It’s almost inevitable. Would the Scum risk that? I don’t know.

[Andresvmb]

scum won't just shoot town!VFP tonight and leave us back at square one trying to figure out if Koba and Andante are the real deal?

Would you? With the claims that are left to sort? You can deal with the confirmed Town who is convinced another Town is Scum a bit later in the game. You probably want to avoid straight mechanical solving before you care too much about a slot that’s wildly wrong.

[Andresvmb]

it's kinda meta stuff, I think I understand his playstyle a little more idk we'll see if he has a gun tonight

T3 is a bad check. Try somewhere else.

[Andresvmb]

@salsa, oh I'm pretty sure dragons is flipping town, but there was a big wagon on him so I wanted to see, like if anyone would quick vote STD while I had STD at E-1, and in the process VFP tried to create as much distance from STD as he could... but yeah, STD's slot is just complicated, I'm like too sure he's flipping town, it's great

Yeah, I'm suspicious about

VFP

too atm. Want to wagon him?

VOTE: VFP

as i said i dont think vfp is the kill for d1 but i'm definitely willing to listen

vfp really doesn't feel like a terrible choice. they have a scum read on greencrayons for, as far as i can tell, merely disagreeing with them re: humour being a problem. they distanced themself from the STD wagon for very shoddy reasons in 1577 as soon as people started talking about the likelihood of scum being on it, and have been doing a whole lot of nothing for... pages and pages now.

If Asteria is Town, and VFP is Town, I think I would look here. There were some posts at the end of the day that pinged me about Insidious and I was trying to figure out why I had that feeling and I don’t know, there’s something here.

[Andresvmb]

andres are u catching up or are u just ignoring me

I was catching up. What’s up?

[Andresvmb]

And if alive, you’re probably going to get a 1v1 at that point. It’s almost inevitable. Would the Scum risk that? I don’t know.

you lost me at this part. if who is alive? 1v1? would the scum risk what?

If we leave Asteria alive, don’t execute there. And the Scum decide not to shoot there tonight because they believe the non-consecutive, right? Say we miss with every execution, but Asteria is still around. If the Scum don’t shoot there, they very likely put themselves in a situation were Asteria picks a player and they come back as not Vanilla Townie. Since we have specific claims from players, and we have a sense for the guns and who has them, that’s almost as good as a red check. Almost. That puts the Scum in a tough spot. That’s all I’m saying.

[Andresvmb]

if asteria is fake she is almost certainly defending her scumbuddy. if she's gonna clear a random person why not pick someone other people TR'd more universally?

Isn’t there a lot of value in clearing a potential mid-execution? I don’t know why you are advocating for this position. What value is there in clearing a player most people wouldn’t execute anyway?

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: andante

You know, I actually understand this.

[Andresvmb]

Cause literally everyone on the Asteria train keeps saying she's flipping neo, I don't feel good about it... ahhh

no i dont think she'll flip nea. i'm saying that even IF she does, that's not a total loss

The one thing I do worry about is that the Scum are somewhat forced here to shoot the Neopolitan before Night 3. The problem is that if we don’t find any Scum at all, then we’re in ELo by then. Which is also a bit the genius of the play if coming from Scum. And if alive, you’re probably going to get a 1v1 at that point. It’s almost inevitable. Would the Scum risk that? I don’t know.

2 normal games come to mind here which is my main motivation in voting asteria here - although rn im fine exploring other players to gain more info as a tunnel gives us nothing

You know, let’s. Let’s not execute Asteria. I also think Pooky is Town. What do you think?

[Andresvmb]

UNVOTE:

[Andresvmb]

despite all this, i have to admit that on a gut level, their crusade against andres feels more like town tunnel vision than anything else.

@Asteria, if you knew I was Town, would this strike you as TMI’ish?

[Andresvmb]

experienced players do not complain about other people using too much logic and too little emotion. the list goes on.

I’ve been thinking about this. I actually think a lack of emotion, or too much reliance on logic, is more Scum indicative than not. Town screw up all the time. I give convoluted reasoning on the regular. All you have to do is read any one of my completed games to see that. Town have incomplete information, and they make assumptions and take leaps of faith. They don’t have a choice. Scum on the other hand have all the information. They know who is Town, and who is not. So they can afford to make arguments that appear air tight, and not feel much frustration or anxiety because they know the answers. They know whether a vote gets them closer to their win condition, or whether it puts them in a harder spot. I don’t think Andante’s tell is silly. In fact I thought it made some sense.

I’ve been re-reading your ISO, and I just thought I would post this. Because I do find your detachment somewhat Scummy.

[Andresvmb]

and there are reasons to read andante as plausibly town, but the posts he cites aren't examples of the ones i see

This is fascinating to me. Insidious has been pushing Andante aggressively for a bit now, explicitly stating that they’re engaged in lazy and terrible play for instance. But then, they say that there are reasons for seeing Andante as Town, but they don’t go into that at all (and I would point out that earlier all they said was that they had been reading Andante as Town on “gut”).

Andante, i'm curious how 823 makes you feel

seconded. to my knowledge they still haven't responded to this post. their repeated refusal to read and confidence that they won't be voted out for it does feel more like town to me though, based on gut. not sure how common this type of play is from either alignment, but it's ballsy

And then again, they repeat that on gut they could be Town, but don’t switch their vote.

—

I just don't think it's smart to eliminate a claimed tracker D1. And I also think his scum partners would've 1) helped with a better crumb, and 2) told him not to claim at E-2 or whatever it was

I am telling you right now, if there is 3 maf, he is not a town tracker

what's the logic here?

Something tells me that Andante wouldn’t have shot RMH, but Insidious might have.

—

In 2183 you say that you never pushed for Dragons, but you definitely left yourself open to voting there, so that’s a bit disingenuous:

i've been on the fence about STD -- posts like 1650 feel like AtE more than genuine input, and their defense of their reactionary voting by pointing out that they hadn't voted me or VFP (?) is a very weak one. but they still don't feel like the best D1 exec to me, and this flash wagon on them reeks of scum opportunism.

[Andresvmb]

so vfp is town unless we have a DkKoba asteria vfp house party exactly

like the more i think about it the less of a stretch this seems lol. is the wifom turning my brain to mush or is this just a holy trifecta of scum

And this speculation just seems really Scummy to me.

[Andresvmb]

I’m just going to vote here for now.

VOTE: Insidious Lemons

[Andresvmb]

You know what I’m starting to think? I think Asteria’s Claim is a bit too strong for a Scum fake claim. The non-consecutive is honestly quite spot on if Scum, but something tells me here that we should let it self-resolve instead and just look for actually Scummy play. Asteria has been way too focused on me though they’ve wavered at times, but I would actually want to flip a player I’m actively Scum reading. That for me would be Insidious. I’m looking at the list of names still left around, and I am beginning to think it’s a slot worth flipping.

[Andresvmb]

Like we have an actual two player block basically that the Scum are going to have to penetrate if we don’t flip it. The Scum aren’t going to keep VFP/Asteria around all game if they’re Town, no way. Because they’re never executing each other. I want the Scum to have to make a choice.

[Andresvmb]

like she claims nea that happens to be non-consecutive and happens to clear one of the scummiest slots in the game? get out of here

But it’s an actually excellent choice if Town. Clearing the Scummiest slot in the game is exactly what you do.

I am thinking about it this way - the universe of players that are confident enough to tie themselves mechanically to their Scum Partners is small. I’ve seen VPBaltar do it under extreme duress (after they were trapped mechanically by Town), and I’ve seen Flavor Leaf do it (with Koba). Other than that? It’s a rarity. Even if Asteria is Scum, I would gamble that VFP is Town more often than not. I had some time to think about it, and that’s what I concluded.

I’m not saying we never execute Asteria in this game. But I am getting a worse vibe out of Lemons.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: DkKoba

[Andresvmb]

My vote is completely unrelated to mechanics.

I think Town!Koba more aggressively pushes me if they disagree with me, and I think they hold their ground a lot stronger. Hammering T3 after they had already identified them as Town low hanging fruit just doesn’t sit right me. I refuse to believe this is Town Koba.

[Andresvmb]

and how did you go from voting asteria on dayplay to agreeing with VFP that asteria is town?

Who is this for?

[Andresvmb]

why are you even ? andres when you just said he might be 75% scum lol

my current pool of votes is asteria/anya/lemon but ok

I can’t see Asteria being Scum and voting them before tonight is certainly a bad idea, and Anya hasn’t struck me as Scum either. I think this isn’t your Town play to be totally honest.

Lemons could be Scum but I’m unsure even there now. There’s one other player I would want to flip before Lemons but it depends on whether you flip and what the result is.

[Andresvmb]

i dont need to justify anything.

This already doesn’t strike me as genuine. I think you would more aggressively look to understand my perspective if you actually think I’m Town here even if I’m wrong.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway I need to sleep I was just popping in for a hot second to see the flip.

[Andresvmb]

i'm willing to call this a scumslip. in trying to curry favour by defending players she knows to be town, scum!asteria has revealed that she is mentally counting herself as armed mafioso rather than as her real claim. town!asteria does not believe that koba and i are both telling the truth, because to believe so necessitates the belief that none of the mafia are armed. and we know she didn't just miss the andante flip because she directly quotes anya's "rip andante" message earlier in the same post.

I’m not following this logic at all. Walk me through it like I was a child.

[Andresvmb]

We’re not executing Anya. That’s ridiculous. You know there’s Scum in the PR claims, and Koba’s is by far the weakest one (regarding when it was made, how it was made, and the slot’s actual posting), and you want to execute outside to leave this problem potentially for tomorrow? Why?

[Andresvmb]

Anya is going to be the best lim here as scum Lemon's makes a claim like that to ensure Anya is safe. Meaning Anya is something important to scum.
I'm thinking Lemons is actually the traitor here.

There’s so much tinfoil here my head hurts.

[Andresvmb]

Or there’s an embedded assumption that this game actually has a traitor. No?

[Andresvmb]

Or is that your second situation?

[Andresvmb]

No you’re right it is the second situation.

[Andresvmb]

Scum would have {Mafia Doctor, Traitor, [Blank] But Gunned}, leaving room for a total of 3 Town PR Claims, 1 of which is Andante who is now flipped.

[Andresvmb]

So if Asteria is telling the truth, given your Role Cop Claim, DkKoba has to be lying. But that’s it no? Who else has claimed anything?

[Andresvmb]

Or conversely if DkKoba is telling the truth, Asteria is Scum. Now, the odds that Insidious’ claim here is real

after

the Gunsmith has been executed are probably high, since well why willingly put yourself in this position? Unless you think you can’t stop the Neapolitan from dying and targeting you which feels fanciful.

[Andresvmb]

But I don’t see how Asteria is implying that they’re Scum with the assumption that DkKoba and you Insidious aren’t both lying. If only one of them is lying, doesn’t scenario 2 still allow for Asteria to be Town? That’s what I’m not getting.

[Andresvmb]

Like Asteria didn’t assert Insidious and Koba are both telling the truth, but I think Asteria was saying that they think only one of them is not. That’s different than what your interpretation is.

I’m trying to be careful with this because Scum slips are rare, and this one doesn’t feel like one at all to me.

[Andresvmb]

she asserts that these 2 people are myself and Dk, which would make asteria herself the liar.

Like yeah I think this assumption is incorrect. You should have asked to clarify before I think. I don’t take Asteria’s statement to mean that she thinks you and Koba are both telling the truth. The statement absolutely leaves the option open that 1 of you is lying, just not the both of you.

[Andresvmb]

Koba not announcing who they supposedly targeted N2 is also highly suspicious.

[Andresvmb]

Frankly we need to sort out between {Asteria, Koba}. No other execution makes any sense, and VFP pushing Anya is absurd. If we get it right, we mostly likely clear 3 other players and put the Scum on the ropes. Take it that Insidious is telling the truth. I already had Pooky as very likely Town so I’ll buy the clear, which now 2 different players have confirmed in different ways (remember, Andante also cleared them of a gun and now we know they’re not a Doctor. They would have to be strictly Traitor and I’m not seeing that). So, Pooky would be cleared, and the two other gun claims would be cleared. That leaves a really narrow pathway to victory for Scum.

[Andresvmb]

And like, Vanilla Traitor? What kind of underpowered Scum has a Vanilla Traitor? Seems kind of silly.

[Andresvmb]

The most logical execution even just from a mechanical perspective is always Koba. And that’s outside of the fact I SR them for other reasons that I’ve alluded to already.

[Andresvmb]

VFP's simultaneous persistence in the notion that the claims will self resolve AND that even town!asteria wouldn't die tonight is pretty fuckin fishy to me.

This, however, is absolutely correct.

You want to know my theory? Either Koba is Traitor, or VFP is, and one has figured out the other is a Traitor. That’s what I actually think. It’s a bit crazy, and honestly quite unlucky that VFP was checked by Asteria and VFP has that to fall back on, but I do believe this to be correct.

[Andresvmb]

But anyway I am not great at Mafia hahaha that’s just a thought I had.

The way to balance out this setup is for the Town to get bad information at some stages from the cops. Otherwise, it would just be too Town sided. That’s my thinking. So, there’s a Traitor that can’t be spotted by the Cops, and we’re quite likely at some stage to get a false clear. I TR Pooky so I don’t think they’re that but if you disagree I’m all ears.

[Andresvmb]

I think VFP is acting boldly and assertively because they have this to fall back on. But c’mon, Anya? No. That’s absurd. Trying to push it away from Asteria and Koba is blatantly Scummy.

[Andresvmb]

Oh wait wait. No. The Neapolitan gets a Vanilla Townie result right?

[Andresvmb]

Oy.

[Andresvmb]

Wait so how do we ever not execute between Asteria and Koba here? What other execution even remotely makes sense? If Koba flips Scum, that’s good, we have a circle of trust of sorts and the Scum is outside. Unless there’s no Traitor and one of the PRs is Scum.

[Andresvmb]

I think VFP is acting boldly and assertively because they have this to fall back on. But c’mon, Anya? No. That’s absurd. Trying to push it away from Asteria and Koba is blatantly Scummy.

Why wouldn't I push it away if I believe they are town.
Setup wise you're the one lying here for me.

No I was wrong you’re right. You supposedly came back “Vanilla Town”. Which you’ve hard claimed. So no ignore that.

[Andresvmb]

So I guess Pooky is theoretically a Traitor but has less than a random chance of being Scum.

[Andresvmb]

We know there’s for sure at least one Scum between {Insidious, Asteria, Koba}, though at most 2, and given the timing of Insidious’ Claim, including the execution of the Gunsmith, I’m going to guess that Claim is less likely to be false though would be genius from Scum.

[Andresvmb]

Wait so how do we ever not execute between Asteria and Koba here? What other execution even remotely makes sense? If Koba flips Scum, that’s good, we have a circle of trust of sorts and the Scum is outside. Unless there’s no Traitor and one of the PRs is Scum.

And if both are town?
Thats just 2 mis lims in a row for just believing Lemons.

Funny that scum want that.

Yes, it’s possible Insidious is lying which would allow for the Scum to potentially push two consecutive mis-executions. But I don’t TR Koba. So I’m not afraid to pull the trigger there to be totally honest with you.

[Andresvmb]

Why does it make it false when the claim can get 2 town PRs mis lynched and just win the game?
It's not genius it's pretty basic scum play.

Well I doubt that Insidious is lying about their actual Role then. So the Scum have a N2 Role Cop, a Mafia Doctor, and a Role Blocker?

[Andresvmb]

I was saying it was genius because I at first put myself in the position that it was a complete fake claim of coming from Scum. But you do have a point that the slot they decided to check is a bad one, particularly since the Gunsmith had already established that Pooky didn’t have a gun. So yes, it’s not a great choice.

[Andresvmb]

of coming from Scum.

*if coming

[Andresvmb]

I was saying it was genius because I at first put myself in the position that it was a complete fake claim of coming from Scum. But you do have a point that the slot they decided to check is a bad one, particularly since the Gunsmith had already established that Pooky didn’t have a gun. So yes, it’s not a great choice.

If anything it’s an entirely safe choice. Because Insidious would presumably know that Pooky has an incredibly high chance of being just Vanilla Town after being found with no gun. And if they’re Traitor they aren’t going to say anything anyway, because they would know that Insidious is lying and therefore highly likely to be Scum.

[Andresvmb]

Possible for a traitor to have a rolecop? I'm not sure on minis, never seen it.

I have definitely seen games with a Scum Rolecop. That wouldn’t surprise me.

[Andresvmb]

I will also grant you that it’s a very specific, convenient claim that likely buries one of the other PRs.

@Koba, I take it you did shoot N2 as well? Who did you target? And why did you decide to still execute T3 despite your read?

[Andresvmb]

UNVOTE:

[Andresvmb]

kinda confused by the push on oranges i'm not seeing it i don't like the andres wagon either so i dunno where i'd vote if people really want to leave all the roles alone to hopefully sort themselves out

t3 for sure actually but no one seems interested in that which makes him even more appealing it's like when they tell you not to step onto the grass so you sprint onto it

I suppose Anya and Insidious make sense together, but then shouldn’t Insidious be the execution here?

[Andresvmb]

@osuka I would appreciate some thoughts from you please.

[Andresvmb]

Hm.

I’m going to wait on answers by Koba, some thoughts from osuka, and perhaps some more concrete thoughts from Pooky.

There’s something to be said about the fact that there’s a coordinated attack occurring here that VFP, who we know is Town almost always, seems very skeptical of. Pooky definitely attacked Koba, and Lemons did reach for the worst possible conclusion on Asteria, twisting a statement as a Scum slip when it certainly wasn’t. Insidious’ claim in fact puts great pressure on the Town to execute a PR, but given Asteria’s claim, they probably know it’s likely to be Koba. Which means they also anticipate a 1v1 tomorrow to occur anyway.

[Andresvmb]

Dammit Koba why did you vote T3? You could have fought it harder. You called them Town, convinced me to Unvote.

[Andresvmb]

asteria/dkkoba + t3? + bear??

Here’s the thing. This is a fascinating solve by Anya. Don’t you think? It heavily implies that a Traitor is present in the game. By this stage, you have a claim by Andante that there’s 4 guns, Koba is a claimed Weak Vig as per 2032, Andante is a claimed Gunsmith (but not in the solve, as per 1182, 1212), and Asteria is a claimed Neapolitan (2134). With a Mafia Doc, you know that either 2 of Asteria/Koba/Andante is Scum, or 1 is with a Traitor present. But they don’t seem to entertain the alternative at all if I’m not wrong. So if you TR Andante say, wouldn’t you speak about the entire situation, and how it could mean that both Asteria and Koba are Scum together?

[Andresvmb]

As I said, particular posts from yesterday was not from town PR with a gun.

I agree with this actually. They would have forcefully claimed and forced a showdown. I think I would have at that stage. Because there’s too many gun claims including your own and you would have needed to push that instead of letting T3 get executed.

[Andresvmb]

Okay VFP the more I think about it the more I’m coming to your POV.

[Andresvmb]

Roles like this should return full names (e.g. Bulletproof Traitor) to a Role Cop investigating them.

And in fact, a Role Cop that is Town aligned would have a huge incentive to ensure one of the PRs is correct. A Scum Role Cop however wants to find the Traitor. And if Pooky is the Traitor, they are signaling to them that they know.

Okay, how about this for a solve? {Anya, Insidious, Pooky}, with Pooky as the Traitor?

[Andresvmb]

leash rolecop on andres tonight

What does this mean?

[Andresvmb]

do yall really think theres 3 docs bc if 2 prs are real then there is 3 docs
Im one real one therefore there have to be 2 fake pr imo and limming me confirms both of them. At this point ive ruined the gamestate but now we have a cc

You need to clarify what this means.

[Andresvmb]

I called out lemon and now today theyre claiming role cop not on me which is BS

Yeah VFP has been arguing this and I think correctly.

[Andresvmb]

Do you mean the Neapolitan should land on me? Is that what you’re saying?

[Andresvmb]

3 docs = 4 town pr with gun

As vig i dont think traitor exists.
2 docs means 1 other is real

I’m not following - where are all these Doctors coming from?

[Andresvmb]

scum have more than 1 doc or a traitor confirmed.

Im not gonna believe that scum have a traitor when a vig exists, prob a mix of multitasking docs and non multitasking so they can all protect eachother

Bc theres a roleblocker, theres 1 scum rb, 2 scum docs imo

No I don’t think you have it right. Actions from players clearly point to a situation where a Traitor exists. Think about Pooky’s entrance where they say they rolled Scum. Or their whole schtick about being part of the bad guys trying to execute good guys. Or Insidious’ use of Role Cop on a role they know has no gun.

[Andresvmb]

And then look at Anya’s solve without entertaining the alternative.

[Andresvmb]

p-edit claiming here just so i don't have to deal with being scumread by a likely elim is kinda stupid

Perhaps. But claiming to ensure a PR gets killed and you have 1 less role to defend against? Now that’s not so stupid now is it?

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: InsidiousLemons

[Andresvmb]

you dont have a rolecop ability

Then Insidious is always Scum. And they’re signaling to Pooky that they know they’re the Traitor.

[Andresvmb]

p-edit yeah, sure. but don't you think it's more likely that my claim is genuine than that both Dk's and Asteria's are?

Not Asteria’s, no. Maybe Koba’s, but I have suspected you, you did push for Andante’s execution earlier in the game, and you keep landing on Town.

[Andresvmb]

Andante: upon rereading, 88 kinda pings weirdly for me. why is she so concerned about putting a 4th vote on osuka less than 100 posts into the game? "I kinda like them here" -- already? why? not like you're going to take them out that early anyway. i keep changing my mind on how her piss-poor reaction to robert's accusations reads, but i think i'm going to stick with my initial noobtown analysis until we see some more interaction between these players. 359 also sucks. 388, though, feels like genuine noobtown wordvomit from someone who is nervous and doesn't understand the game very well yet. i say this because it's painfully similar to how i played my first couple of town games here. the suggestion that scum might try to pocket one of their own buddies is a confusing one to me, but again (call me crazy), reads more like noobtown thinking out loud and smashing the submit button than scum floundering. there's no question they respond terribly to being pressured, though. i'm eager to see how they reenter this thread. slight gut townlean, but i'm not opposed to the idea that this slot could be filthy scum. still not the best D1 elim to me

Bullshit.

[Andresvmb]

Not opposed to the idea that the slot could be filthy Scum? That’s your way of never wavering for long?

[Andresvmb]

And what about 639?

[Andresvmb]

Or 824, 835? Nah give me a break.

[Andresvmb]

never wavered from my townread for long and never advocated an andante elim

This is clearly a lie I don’t care what you say.