Mini Normal 2277 - Frog Images (Game Over)

[Klick]

I've read nothing, I just saw that the player list looked cool

Going back to work now, I'll read up tonight.

[Klick]

First four pages and my main takeaway is that Seanzie is obvtown

[Klick]

First four pages and my main takeaway is that Seanzie is obvtown

Why? This is very rarely a reaction someone who doesn't know me has.

I don't get the sense that you are trying to achieve anything that scum wants to achieve in your early posting. Specifically I get no indication that you earnestly want to convince me you're town, and I believe your actions are attempts at finding scum.

[Klick]

'Me' being the general 'me', as in I don't think Sean was aiming to be townread with his posting

[Klick]

I'm sorry everyone, nights are my only real viable time for catching up and I've fallen asleep the last two nights before getting to this. I'll be catching up during my lunch break and finish tonight

[Klick]

And I mean Klick not unvoting or even speaking to me, while their vote was on me and i was at -2? I get that Klick hasnt been active and might be tied down irl but c'mon. how isn't that scummy?

I'll be back.

Cool your jets
I play on my phone and I accidentally left it at the office yesterday
First thing I'm doing when the kids are in bed is having a good long read of this game

[Klick]

Page 7: Galron's posting definitely seems like a direct reaction to the pressure put on him by Gamma in a way that reads like Gamma's not his partner

[Klick]

So I'm on page 10 and I'm getting the sense that Galron is the only serious option for most if not all of D1?

So the main question is 'what was the scumteam doing while Galron was dying'

[Klick]

325 from Gamma is also blatantly town, I entirely buy that Gamma's posting from a town PoV

[Klick]

I disagree with almost everything Haschel says which makes me sad. I feel like I should be able to read him easily atm but so far I've got nothing. I'm really hoping that changes

[Klick]

crescent looking real bad if galron flips scum

Catching up now. I doubt Galron gets eliminated here D1 if they're scum.

not without your help

what are your thoughts on crescent haschel?

kittytacky can I get some insight into your reads beyond galron?

Scummy string of posts

I agree with this with hindsight of Galron being scum
Despite having a vote on the Galron wagon a lot of redcardinal's posting here reads as an attempt to quietly start something else up

[Klick]

Like 353 expresses a sort of confidence/bravado about the Galron wagon, but the surrounding content seems to want another lead to exist

[Klick]

whooooooo do you scumread I wanna know

Galron and you. Your role PM is as red as the bird you are named after.

What a legend

[Klick]

no fucking way you actually believe I'm bussing galron

I feel like this should be telling but I don't know what to make of this.

[Klick]

I get pretty strong town vibes from KittyTacky on page 19
That whole string of posts with KT and redcardinal feels TvS

[Klick]

UNVOTE: /uv]
I don't really have a problem with an Eiralox wagon from what I've read so far, but I'd like to finish reading pls ty

[Klick]

UNVOTE:

[Klick]

I would be very, very hesitant to stop pressuring Galron here. Backup Neighbor at this point isn’t an AI claim, nor is it a role that could have a lot of effect on the game.

If T3 were scum I don't see why he'd purposefully disrupt Galron's claim/chances of escape

[Klick]

I'm up to Page 25 but I really need a bit more sleep before work.
Here's where my thoughts are at so far

TOWN
Klick
Gamma
Seanzie
KT
T3

NULL
Eiralox
schadd_
Enchant
Malakittens
Haschel Cedricson

SCUM
redcardinal

[Klick]

schadd was already voting you, he didn't hammer

[Klick]

And I fucking DARE you, try and construct a reason I’m scum with Galron that doesn’t get ripped to shreds in less than 5 minutes.

Nah, I'll just bury you on your own play.

Go ahead and try scumfuck, but Mini Normals lack multiball or Serial Killers, so any belief I’m scum has to reconcile the fact that I put Galron in the fucking ground.

Please don't swear at me, this is a game, and that sort of language is unsportsmanlike.

I'm just going to keep burying you based on your play. If you want to try to make a case that you couldn't be teamed with Galron, you can try to do that, and I'll read it. However, that onus is on you.

Actually let's start here.

Vote: UltimateDetectiveKiriGiri

.

why UD?

Crescent was wishywashy about the Galron wagon, but KiriGiri used her limited posts to try and stop the momentum on it.

I feel like UD genuinely believed her read there
Meanwhile I think someone like Seanzie is more sus for voting Galron and then immediately unvoting following the claim

Mala pretty blatantly sheeped Gamma and that's... Yeah I don't know Mala enough.

She's worth flipping D1 for stuff like that. She's not a bad Town player.

This is probably the post that sticks out the most for me. Calling Mala out like this is bound to backfire upon Galron’s scum flip. I think UD probably processes that and doesn’t make a post this brazen as scum.

Gamma believed "UD genuinely believed her read there", while talking specifically about her read on Galron. What post does Gamma give that felt genuine? A post from UD about Mala. Nah. Their read on UD was faked, and they can't back it up.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Maybe if you had the ability to parse nuance you’d realize the point about Mala does relate to UD’s Galron read. By saying Mala is scum for her Galron push, that necessitates Galron!town! If Mala wanted, she could very much say “through Galron’s scumflip I have proven that I am GOOD town, so UD calling me bad town is a bad look”.
VOTE: Seanzie

OoOoOrrr.... you made up a read and got caught doing it and now are scrambing;)

This player is not trying to convince people he is town and I'm disappointed that Seanzie townreads are not ubiquitous

[Klick]

Kinda feels like GE's UDKG read was made up.

If you demonstrate legitimate solving I’ll legitimately engage this but as of now, all it seems like you’re doing is trying your hardest to smear obvtown.

I mean if this is what he's doing it's working really well on me
I don't think this is intentional

[Klick]

Kinda surprised no one called out my "hmmm..." post as suspicious.

Anyways, VOTE: Galron. This is a non-RVS vote.

As I called out before: this was never explained and comes across as an early-game distancing voted given the short-lived nature of it and aforementioned lack of reasoning.

The problem is that an early-game distancing vote of that nature isn't actually effective on anyone and everyone is aware of this
If Seanzie!scum wanted to bus there are other ways he'd be a lot more likely to go about it

[Klick]

Actually let's start here.

Vote: UltimateDetectiveKiriGiri

.

why UD?

Crescent was wishywashy about the Galron wagon, but KiriGiri used her limited posts to try and stop the momentum on it.

I doubt that scum UDKG would believe that they could derail the Galron wagon at that point with that little posts.

This feels like a genuine thought process to me

[Klick]

If you seriously consider my moderate swearing a personal attack then I’m scared for how you’ll handle other players. How old even are you?

I've not read the conclusion of this yet

Treat people with decent human respect please.

[Klick]

I don't really have a townread on Mala personally but I'm inclined to trust Gamma's read

[Klick]

The Gamma/Seanzie interactions are a slog and while I think both of them are town I also think that they should both feel bad for making us all read that.

There we go Haschel, we agree on something.

[Klick]

I'm having a problem with reading schadd where I have zero read on what his potential is as scum. Right now I'm vaguely leaning town on him but he's in the special category of someone that I don't think I'm going to get a confident read on at all.

[Klick]

Alright I'm all caught up

Here's where I'm currently at on people individually:

TOWN
Klick
Seanzie
Malakittens
T3

???
Enchant
KittyTacky
schadd_
Haschel

Likely Scum
redcardinal

I feel slightly worse about Haschel than I do about the other null players. However, the theory currently running around in my head is redcardinal/schadd_:

Votecount 2.7

Eiralox (3)

- schadd_, Klick, T3

Klick (2)

- Haschel Cedricson, redcardinal

schadd_ (2)

- Gamma Emerald, Malakittens

KittyTacky (1)

- Seanzie

redcardinal (1)

- Enchant

Not Voting (2)

- Eiralox, KittyTacky

With 11 players alive, it takes 6 to decide an elimination. Deadline is in (expired on 2022-08-08 12:11:33).

Mod notes

Please let me know if you notice any errors!

redcardinal's push on my slot came as the Eiralox wagon picked up steam, and the way rc pushed the vote on me felt motivated. I feel like pushing me at the time rc did is pretty poor optically, unless she's trying to achieve something. And the something I think she was trying to achieve was pulling potential pressure away from a schadd_ wagon.

I can expand more on this later but work now.
VOTE: redcardinal

[Klick]

So from what I can tell, you have me pretty much as a town!lock. Being in this coveted position, I'd like to ask you to do me a favor. Would you be willing to attempt to towncase RedCardinal? You've been scumreading them pretty much without wavering since you got into the thread, and I think they're town. In order to help me read you, I'd like to see if you can consider the flipside of Red's posts.

I'm not asking you to necessarily change your read on Red, but just like... go through their ISO and try to see if you can give any evidence for town!Red here (even if you think the evidence for scum!Red outweighs the evidence for town!Red).

The problem here is that with the way I solve, I have a lot of trouble giving thoughts on people that aren't genuinely what I believe. I find many of the things commonly used to townread and scumread people just... wrong, or not an accurate way of solving. I could try to intentionally towncase redcardinal, but it wouldn't be genuine.

What will probably be more useful is if I read redcardinal's ISO and see if that changes anything?

[Klick]

The problem is that I see basically no issue with the content redcardinal has posted coming from a scum PoV
like you could argue that the sheer amount of content she has posted is more likely to come from town than scum, but that's not solid and I don't see redcardinal as the type to post less as scum anyway

I have no reason to townread the slot at all which is usually where scum winds up being in my experience.

[Klick]

So from what I can tell, you have me pretty much as a town!lock. Being in this coveted position, I'd like to ask you to do me a favor. Would you be willing to attempt to towncase RedCardinal? You've been scumreading them pretty much without wavering since you got into the thread, and I think they're town. In order to help me read you, I'd like to see if you can consider the flipside of Red's posts.

I'm not asking you to necessarily change your read on Red, but just like... go through their ISO and try to see if you can give any evidence for town!Red here (even if you think the evidence for scum!Red outweighs the evidence for town!Red).

The problem here is that with the way I solve, I have a lot of trouble giving thoughts on people that aren't genuinely what I believe. I find many of the things commonly used to townread and scumread people just... wrong, or not an accurate way of solving. I could try to intentionally towncase redcardinal, but it wouldn't be genuine.

What will probably be more useful is if I read redcardinal's ISO and see if that changes anything?

Hmm... okay. Could you possibly quote a recent scum game or two of yours? Feel free to throw a town game in as well if you want.

These are the only two scum games that I have that are remotely recent:
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=88034
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=87412

I'm struggling to find a decent town game to link to from around that time because I, uh, replaced out of a number of them. I have a few good town games much more recently but it won't make for as good a comparison

[Klick]

Re: schadd_
Yeah I thought RC was pretty scummy during the night but now I don't think so. The Klick case made sense to me.

What about it specifically made sense to you?
I understand people feeling vaguely poor about this slot due to relative inactivity/optics, but redcardinal didn't really provide any evidence for my slot being scum outside of a personal theory of the scumteam

[Klick]

EIRALOX: Sees as town, tries to shift wagon to me albeit half-heartedly. Finally hammers after peer pressure from other players.

This feels like a really odd justification for not including Enchant in your set of people who actively or passively wanted the Eiralox elimination. Enchant did hammer Eiralox

[Klick]

I read Galron's posting and think that the scumteam were probably rather happy with bussing him. The fact that there was no actual counter on D1 indicates that a bus is likely

[Klick]

Do you have any confident reads Haschel?

[Klick]

Pagetop

[Klick]

Votecount 1.8

Galron (6)

- Gamma Emerald, Malakittens, redcardinal, Haschel Cedricson, KittyTacky, Seanzie

Crescent (1)

- Galron

Eiralox (1)

- schadd_

Malakittens (1)

- UltimateDetectiveKiriGiri

Seanzie (1)

- EATEROFTIME

Not Voting (3)

- Crescent, Eiralox, T3

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 to decide an elimination. Deadline is in (expired on 2022-08-06 01:33:48).

Mod notes

Please let me know if you notice any errors!

Behold, more frogs.

Galron is at E-1.

This is one VC but it's the fifth one in a row with 5+ votes on Galron and no other wagon with 3+ votes.

UNVOTE:

I want mala's fresh scumreads before you die

redcardinal unvotes and lightly pressures Mala

UNVOTE: Galron

VOTE: KittyTacky

VOTE: malakittens

redcardinal sees a chance to kill the Galron wagon momentum, votes Mala (a reasonable choice to go for a miselim probably? No one but Gamma seems to townread Mala at this point)

This then goes nowhere

Votecount 1.10

Galron (7)

- Gamma Emerald, Malakittens, Haschel Cedricson, KittyTacky, redcardinal, Seanzie, T3

Malakittens (1)

- UltimateDetectiveKiriGiri

Crescent (1)

- Galron

Eiralox (1)

- schadd_

Seanzie (1)

- Enchant

Not Voting (2)

- Crescent, Eiralox

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 to decide an elimination. Deadline is in (expired on 2022-08-06 01:33:48).

Mod notes

Please let me know if you notice any errors!

and redcardinal makes sure to get her vote back on Galron before the wagon gets hammered.

[Klick]

I'm rarely confident in my scumreads compared to my townreads but I would struggle to see a world where I'm wrong on redcardinal here.

[Klick]

I've kind of gone off schadd_ as partner
Haschel and KT would both make decent sense

[Klick]

But for now, lunch break is over, goodbye friends

[Klick]

Speaking of which, you completely ignored the last thing I said about KT.

I didn't really have anything to say about it
I don't agree that schadd_ is a particularly weird choice of roleblock target

[Klick]

Like if schadd is on a scumteam he's not really unlikely to be the one submitting a kill

Actually I suppose schadd isn't that likely to be scum with someone like Enchant/Mala/myself due to that block? Because he'd likely submit a kill in those combinations

PEdit: can in a bit, putting kids to bed

[Klick]

First of all, I think redcardinal is a particularly unlikely player for KT!town to decide to roleblock specifically because KT had expressed suspicion of redcardinal; if KT's goal was to actually block a kill with a roleblock, he'd need to target someone who did not particularly expect to be roleblocked. Schadd is a fine guess for 'scum who would submit a kill' and probably one of my top choices if I were in KT's shoes.

And thinking about it I think redcardinal/schadd is also unlikely because schadd probably kills on that team as well

[Klick]

Like if schadd is on a scumteam he's not really unlikely to be the one submitting a kill

Actually I suppose schadd isn't that likely to be scum with someone like Enchant/Mala/myself due to that block? Because he'd likely submit a kill in those combinations

PEdit: can in a bit, putting kids to bed

I don't really agree with this read. Schadd was 1. more active/more on people's minds, and 2. better placed, than any of those other slots, so I think all else held equal Schadd would be less likely to carry the kill in fear of things like watcher (don't want your deepwolf going down because they submitted a kill) and because PRs tend to target their strongest scumread, which often is someone who is active enough to actually be scrutinized.

However, I do give the conclusion weight for a different reason; Schadd being vanilla AND not submitting the kill makes them on the lower-probability side of possible scum, unless of course both remaining scum are vanilla, but I kind of doubt that's the case.

I suppose it's a 'minimise risk of getting targeted' vs 'minimise damage if you are targeted' thing. I feel like scum are more likely to try to do the former in this situation, especially with one scum already down

[Klick]

Preview Edit: If you are a town roleblocker, then it's reasonable to assume that the scum have power roles of their own. In that case you block your top scumread because either 1) You stop the kill, which hurts scum, or 2) Somebody else submitted the kill but it's likely you stopped the mafia from using one of their other powers, which hurts scum.

I have my own thoughts on this, but I'd like to hear KT give a response to this post first

[Klick]

klick hasn't ever made me feel particularly like they're town. they don't have much of a sense that they're reacting to/processing how the game is going, and especially for d2 that seems a little bit more true than the replacement gives it reason to be. like when you hop in when there's stuff going on, you have the choice of keeping up with the present and getting the ball rolling quickly or just rereading the old stuff. maybe thats a personal choice, i don't know. it seemed like they were playing very uninteractively.

I prefer the term 'passive'

This is something I'm very conscious of and it's something that has gotten more and more true about my play over time; I've found that most active probing and questioning doesn't really wind up influencing my reads, and I get the most accurate reads when I look at everything and filter it all into stuff that I believe is actually alignment-indicative vs not. It started as a way of coping with games that moved way too fast for me but I've now just found that it works better for me as a style.

[Klick]

Up to the point where I'd caught up before they were hammered, I thought they were fairly likely to be scum. They projected confidence in a way that read to me as fake - and I still think that's true. I just thought 'because they're scum' was a likely explanation for that, when it turns out that's not what it was.

[Klick]

Gamma implied that Seanzie was purposely trying to seem obvtown. But Seanzie reads town to me specifically because he doesn't feel like he's trying to get townread.

[Klick]

Oh that makes a lot of sense actually.i thought 'smear' was an odd word choice but didn't consider another interpretation lol.

[Klick]

Re: schadd_
Yeah I thought RC was pretty scummy during the night but now I don't think so. The Klick case made sense to me.

What about it specifically made sense to you?
I understand people feeling vaguely poor about this slot due to relative inactivity/optics, but redcardinal didn't really provide any evidence for my slot being scum outside of a personal theory of the scumteam

The way it was made pinged town to me.

Right, but what about it made sense?
Why are you on my wagon?

[Klick]

I do get what you’re saying about redcardinal’s interactions with Galron, but redcardinal has many other reasons to be townread.

Go on

[Klick]

I'm not going to claim without intent.

Hey KittyTacky, what's your read on Enchant?

[Klick]

I think claiming intent on me is a poor idea and would advise you to reconsider

[Klick]

Sure
Whoever is town on my wagon should unvote before that happens

[Klick]

I'm Town Informed, and I'd rather be hammered than reveal what I'm informed of publicly today.

[Klick]

VOTE: KittyTacky

[Klick]

Pagetop

[Klick]

UNVOTE:

[Klick]

VOTE: redcardinal

[Klick]

My gut says you'll find the scum in the pool of {redcardinal, Haschel, Enchant}

[Klick]

Loool same second

[Klick]

Mala shouldn't get voted really.