Mini Normal 2285: GM [game over]

[Scoliosis]

VOTE: val89

19 looks like a scum post to me.

I suspect Testarossa too for posting 17. By comparison, 6 doesn't include a vote so it isn't trying to blend.

[Scoliosis]

VOTE: Church

Popping in to say I'll be active tomorrow.

I don't like this.

The townleans are fine for now.

What townleans?

Nothing scummy IME, but feels like everyone's poking at a dead slug of a game (assuming holidays, that's what was up for me) trying to get life out of it.

The game just started. It doesn't sound to me like you've read the game at all. I feel like you're lying in 40 and I want to know why.

[Scoliosis]

nothing stands out as exceptional enough to comment on yet.

Nothing scummy IME, but feels like everyone's poking at a dead slug of a game (assuming holidays, that's what was up for me)

The game just started. It doesn't sound to me like you've read the game at all. I feel like you're lying in 40 and I want to know why.

I misspoke in 41. It isn't that it sounds like you haven't read the game, it's that it sounds like you've read the game

too much

and are being careful not to create any unintentional links or imply which points you know were important and which weren't.

[Scoliosis]

Biggest change for me over the last few pages is that I townread val and innocent villager now. Val asked me some questions I'm going to answer later today, knock on wood.

[Scoliosis]

Okay I had a pocket scum read on skitter last night but I feel better about her today for some reason.

Nah I'll back you up on having a pocket scum read on skitter.

[Scoliosis]

We STILL don't have an answer as to if they did or did not realise Toto was IC at the point of posting #20.

A simple yes or no will do the job for now, Scoliosis.

No, I had no idea, and it does change my opinion on the page 1 posts because I have seen scum vote the ic as a joke on page 1 before. My main motivation behind 20 was to choose suspects based on posts I have actually seen scum make on page 1.

[Scoliosis]

OK, thank you. So you also did have an opinion on KTs posting you just didn't share, than has now changed with that realisation?

Yes exactly, and your analysis in 31 and 37 is accurate in that I did think more about KT's and Flippy's posts initially and decided not to share my opinion.

I apologise for bombarding you with questions, but I need to get to the bottom of this if I am to ever have a hope of working out if you are scum and skitter is just handing you a free pass, or if you have been TMId as town by a scum!skitter.

They are relevant questions and I think that skitter is scum who is pretending to townread me. I don't see how they drew at all that I am obvious town.

What difference did you see between mine and Tetra's posting, and Skitters and Herta's? I understand if you say you didn't realise Toto was IC why you wanted to give a read based on the lack of vote; but what was different about Toto's non-vote over flippys or geraintm's?

They are different posts. Not in any kind of abstract way, just in how they are formatted.

One line of inconsequential text followed by a vote:

Morning and sneeze!

VOTE: KittyTacky

i am hopeful of a 2-1 Welsh win

Mae’n ddrwg gen i.

VOTE: geraintm

I have seen scum post both versions of the above post before on page 1. Both with and without the quote and with and without the inconsequential line of text being written in code.

I haven't seen scum create the below posts on page 1:

Hello all!

@data vla on fridays/saturdays
(And sporadically till the end of the holiday weekend as well)

VOTE: redcardinal

Breathe.

VOTE: Flippy

Herta's comment to KT doesn't really look like a post I've seen scum make before on page 1. The @data explanation in skitter's post isn't something I've seen scum post before on page 1. My feeling now with the benefit of hindsight is that skitter's choice to include it was nai and that without the @data part of their post, they posted exactly what I was looking for in 20. However, I don't regret overlooking that the first time, because I was trying to push the posts only which I've actually seen coming from scum. I do regret missing that toto is an ic, because I have actually seen scum vote the ic before as a joke on page 1.

Flippy's and geraintm's nonvotes I don't view as very similar at all to toto. Toto is basically announcing that they are here and intentionally choosing not to participate in rvs, which is something I haven't seen coming from scum page 1, but I have seen town do. I think that it feels safer as scum to just participate in rvs. Flippy and geraintm were basically playing their own game outside of the confines of an rvs meta and I don't find that directly comparable nor do I recall seeing scum post in such a way on page 1.

[Scoliosis]

I have no idea what's going on with the Church/Ydra player. I don't see any reason to townread either iso.

skitter towm

Why?

[Scoliosis]

I think skitter is towny and I think her opinion on herta makes sense from the position of being on the other side of the aggression

I don't feel super committed to either of these reads but those are my vibes atm

Dannflor still seems very null and this post is the biggest question mark for me. How did skitter's opinion on herta make sense to you?

[Scoliosis]

I have no idea what's going on with the Church/Ydra player. I don't see any reason to townread either iso.

skitter towm

Why?

That was a joke

It makes more sense if you consider it was posted right after skitter’s post (which is easy to miss on reread )

Reading the posts in context helps a lot with reading the Ydra iso. My feeling is that I might be barking up the wrong tree.

VOTE: skitter

I believe skitter, KT and Testarossa are the scum team.

I'm neutral on Dannflor, Ydra, geraintm and unwnd.

[Scoliosis]

A couple posts which were important to me:

@val why is the vote a scumclaim ?

Not the vote - the post. It is an attempt at a fake dumb tell. Are you trying to get a read on the author of post 6 from the RVS posting here?

I say it's fake rather than genuine, as KT seems to suggest, because of KTs vote/unvote. Scoliosis trying to draw 3 reads (and two scum ones at that) from the RVS shit posting that went on before post 20 screams 'try harding', but if you a seriously try harding, do you serious think KT moving their vote around is something less AI than two "Hi <vote>" posts, and not bother looking into that?

We know KT was shit posting because Toto is IC, but Scoliosis is trying to dumb tell they didn't notice and need to give a read on post 6 - its internally inconsistent.

I think this is a telling interaction for associative reasons as I tend to believe that partners wouldn't be pressed to elaborate the thought like this; doesn't seem like distancing/prompted by something which is usually when partners directly respond to another

I am null on skitter fwiw

This reads to me like a friend of skitter and innocent villager is recognizing that something is off in skitter and is too nice to say it outright.

Trying to create content in RVS counts as obviously town? Man I gotta try that next time

Yes, i think that's very townie
+ you can tell he's thinking abt the game and trying to understand how other people are trying to solve it (or not)

Do you think he's scummy or just don't particularly believe he's townie ?

I just felt like on a re-read his arguments felt like bad faith pushes.

Fairly easy to fake this "towntell" as scum imo.

What makes them badfaith?
And a few people indicated that they hadn't seen the ic post, including myself. Are all of them scummy? If not, why is scoliosis?

It's early. The game is easy to re-evaluate. I re-read things and come to new conclusions about posts. Also being frozen is a thing.

I think it's kinda weird to come to a totally different conclusion abt the same post at that point in the game when the pkayer in question hadnt posted anything at all in between

I don't believe that any of the posts between skitter or KittyTacky are genuine from either side. I feel like skitter seems to be throwing reads around at random unless they are talking about KittyTacky, and with KittyTacky I feel like they are very precise about pointing out what exactly is wrong with his posts, yet there is a lack of meaningful aggression towards him.

I ... don't know what i was thinking, i read all of those posts but for some reason thought 41 42 happened right after 20 and before 24

I think i had iso'd both and somehow conflated post numbers, but that's my bad

I feel better abt kitty then

This doesn't explain why skitter repeated the mistake (and only this mistake) twice in 126. The mistake and read flip feel contrived.

Plz see next post

Whoops.

Did you not read the next post?

I missed it.

This interaction also felt awkward and artificial. I'm only bothering to bring this point up because moments of forced distancing seem to appear continuously between KT and skitter.

[Scoliosis]

Can you give us an update on the below, herta?

Fair enough. Every game I've played with kitty that he's been reasonably engaged and stick-to-his-guns as in going deep on a hunch and apparent genuine curiosity he's been town. There's one difference but I'm going to sit on that right now and let it develop to help my read because I'm not sure about an aspect of it.

Ic's willing to vote list:

At this point I'm ok with Val/Ger/Ydra as the Elimination target today.

My willing to eliminate D1 list:

I believe skitter, KT and Testarossa are the scum team.

I'm neutral on Dannflor, Ydra, geraintm and unwnd.

[Scoliosis]

VOTE: Pookythebear

Testarossa had a bad iso before replacing out and pooky's is even worse. I especially dislike how Pooky waited to vote me until after he saw unwnd do it. Pooky's push makes me think KT and unwnd are town, hence why Pookythebear wanted to be the third vote on my wagon, so KT and unwnd would look worse than him if he can get me to flip.

Also UNVOTE:

Unless you have reason to believe he is purposefully stunting his realtime inthread interactions, that's an availability-indicative thing, not an ai-indicative thing

The fact that you aren't voting pooky and are leaving your vote at nl makes me suspicious you are preparing for a read flip if you see my wagon becomes popular. I'm expecting scum skitter to continue to hedge their reads for a while so they have the option of pretending to flip their read on me if it becomes clear that scum need my wagon to go through today.

I oddly feel like trusting you and I hate that feeling

No no I'm fine with playing this out actually and like your perspective (of all fucking things)

VOTE: Scolosis

I feel like there is one of *these* players in every town. I don't think there is a single post created by Pookythebear which didn't ping me as scum in some way. I think the inclination to trust these posts is so foreign to me that I don't think I can relate to unwnd at all and I don't trust where their head is at, though unfortunately, I think there is one scum and two town on my wagon, which means unfortunately unwnd is town.

Biggest change for me over the last few pages is that I townread val and innocent villager now. Val asked me some questions I'm going to answer later today, knock on wood.

Explain that change.

No sorry, I've decided you're a clueless town and Pookythebear is taking advantage of your vote, and I prefer not to waste my time answering your questions since it seems clear your mind is already made up.

I feel like I am too dumb to understand the fake dumb tell. It's my impression that Scoliosis just put Toto's post in as contrast to my entrance to underline his point and not trying to give a read on them. I would maybe call it a poor example, but not a fake.

However I like that Val goes one step further and questions how such a try-hard entry dismisses other slots.

Skimming the game before I sleep, nothing stands out as exceptional enough to comment on yet. The townleans are fine for now.

This statement strikes me a bit as odd. There is nothing exceptional to comment on yet you are fine with waving through the townleans made so far? For 1,5 pages that's kind of exceptional imo. Feels like a statement for a statement's sake.

VOTE: Church

Given Pookythebear's play, I looked back and decided that these posts imply that both val and church (ydra) are town.

My Scoliosis townread is kinda eroding ngl. The last 2 posts just seem to be looking to be made to start an early push (it's 2 pages in) on pretty flimsy reasoning.

What exactly changed here for you though or rather why strikes it to you as less townie than before? I think so far it looks to be in character with Scoliosis, going by what we have seen from him so far. (ftr I think it's null)

I guess this is scum white knighting me against KT who is town.

This reads to me like a friend of skitter and innocent villager is recognizing that something is off in skitter and is too nice to say it outright.

That's not completely wrong, but I personally play a lot of wait-and-see with players that I'd prefer to be town? Skitter can be a huge boon if she's the same alignment, so I don't want to immediately start getting paranoid and devalue her thoughts. I do stand by that interaction regardless if one of them flips scum. What do you think of Val?

Since I made it clear already that I believe unwnd is town who doesn't have their head screwed on all the way, I want to clarify to everyone that the above post is a horrible way to play the game, voting out players based on popularity and friendships is how you end up in the position here where you think Pookythebear is creating some compelling stuff.

[Scoliosis]

I know nothing about you. I don't know what your intentions are beyond the times you pop in with some sort of directive. I think it would be helpful to me if you conversed more in real-time.

I think you're gullible and naive and will probably be a liability moving forward, but if it makes you feel any better, I think you're sincere and mean well. I'm working on an updated reads list right now. What do you want to talk about?

[Scoliosis]

are you going to explain

No, I don't think you're a town, and the way you collapsed off your pedestal as soon as I showed up and you are now dancing around my slot makes me think you are quite afraid of the repercussions of provoking me.

[Scoliosis]

I know nothing about you. I don't know what your intentions are beyond the times you pop in with some sort of directive. I think it would be helpful to me if you conversed more in real-time.

I think you're gullible and naive and will probably be a liability moving forward, but if it makes you feel any better, I think you're sincere and mean well. I'm working on an updated reads list right now. What do you want to talk about?

From your disposition, why does me being 'gulliable and naive' make me town? I could easily be faking that. This black and white thinking would be far more of a hindrance than any stupid shit I could possibly do

#1 Because it looks like pookythebear is trying to pocket you and on principle I don't believe scum try to pocket scum.

#2 I think pookythebear waited to vote me until after you did which I don't think he would do if you're town

#3 I think it's really unbelievable that someone would find pookythebear's push on me persuasive, and the fact that you fell for it makes me think that you are uninformed, because I think scum would be more wary about following pookythebear here, regardless of his alignment.

Also, not to be a dick, but if you had really paid close attention to 468, I think it would have been clear that I was townreading because of the dynamic between you and pookythebear, not necessarily because you're gullible.

[Scoliosis]

he is both an alt and a gimmick player and the way he's engaging with the thread is very ++scum for him I'm not going to alt out him

Pookythebear has no idea who I am. This is an attempt to clutter up the thread because he's worried now.

[Scoliosis]

I don't think pooky has ever successfully pocketed me once

He can tell you that I am his biggest critic lmao

Rules were meant to be broken:

Yeah I saw that too but I felt like being devil's advocate that maybe it was just level 0 townplay

just rereading the iso again it looks like he's more interested in pushing and consolidating his position in thread than actually sorting anyone.

posts are heavy on declarative statements and light on interaction/sorting.

That's a bit harsh because he does have a structure to his posts that is lacking in some other individuals. I think that's what read it more favorably compared to other posters

Like I don't get why you like Herta of all people

That's a bit harsh because he does have a structure to his posts that is lacking in some other individuals. I think that's what read it more favorably compared to other posters

Like I don't get why you like Herta of all people

yea he has structure but look at interactions -

he has

0 real time sorting/engagement to sort

lots of declarative statements dressed up to look fancier than they actually are

low desire to really be in the thread and talk out reads with the people he is "townreading"

I oddly feel like trusting you and I hate that feeling

i mean we can just dunk on dannflor first if you feel strongly about scol

i think they have p high partner equity with each other

No no I'm fine with playing this out actually and like your perspective (of all fucking things)

VOTE: Scolosis

hyyyyyype

VOTE: scol

Looks like pocket to me.

[Scoliosis]

Do you think it's possible to seperate those experiences, or perhaps they are just..deluding me?

I'm not sure, it seems like they struck a chord with you by suggesting (lying) that I am afraid of interacting with other players directly. My guess is that they were looking for an angle they thought might work on you and they found one.

Fwiw i'm reading them as experienced in mafia but new to ms and is used to a different site meta (and/or possibly an irl player new to forum mafia)

Ok can you at least comfirm or deny this theory?

Yes, I have played on ms before and I am much more familiar with irl and other site metas.

[Scoliosis]

like I'm giving him the oppurtunity to sort me and explain his read and he's like "nah you're scum I won't talk to you"

so it's not really a "he doesnt have time to engage" or real life time issue - it's just he is actively choosing to not sort or engage and instead just make declarative statements and lamist.

This is scum ate and not really convincing in my eyes.

[Scoliosis]

I'm going to ignore pookythebear and focus on compiling my reads list. I suggest everyone else do the same, but suit yourselves.

[Scoliosis]

Val89
Ydrasse Church
innocentvillager MalcolmTucker
geraintm
Herta
PookyTheMagicalBear Testarossa*
Freedom redcardinal*
Dannflor*
unwnd Emperor flippyNips*
Toto
KittyTacky
Scoliosis
skitter30

I'm not sure, it seems like they struck a chord with you by suggesting (lying) that I am afraid of interacting with other players directly. My guess is that they were looking for an angle they thought might work on you and they found one.

You saying you're not sure is that type of humility I enjoy. What are some other things you're not sure about? Do you feel these are things you don't want to talk about because of it?

I don't understand the last question. I can break down where I don't feel confident though.

Reads I feel confident:

Town: KT, Ydra, innocentvillager, val, herta, unwnd, (toto)

Scum: Pookythebear

Reads I don't feel confident:

Town: 0

Neutral: Dannflor, geraintm, freedom,

Scum: skitter

[Scoliosis]

Whatever. Not much lost in my opinion as far as playing with this town. You know where I stand from my reads list above. Good luck!

[Scoliosis]

I was assuming that you only post if you're sure about something. This would maybe explain your approach

Just trying to get to know you, Mr. curvature of the spine

One thing this does remind me of is that I refrained from saying last night that I think geraintm is more likely to be scum if skitter ends up being town.

[Scoliosis]

huh

Unwnd reminded me there were some things I didn't share because I wasn't sure if they would be useful. One of my ideas was about geraintm and skitter.

If skitter flips town I think geraintm looks bad:

I dont get, or like, the church wagon
I think we should be wagoning herta or kittytacky

Naughty point. Didn't like your stream of posts

I dont get, or like, the church wagon
I think we should be wagoning herta or kittytacky

Naughty point. Didn't like your stream of posts

What does naughty point mean here

Something for me to remember for later that I didn't like that player

I dont get, or like, the church wagon
I think we should be wagoning herta or kittytacky

Naughty point. Didn't like your stream of posts

VOTE: skitter30

Would love to hear more abt both of these

the 4 posts from you 64-67 i just didnt think went anywhere and were filling the game with no content.

I think an argument could also be made in that situation (skitter town, geraintm scum) that this is a bus vote:

Nah there's no sane reason to over-analyze this unless you're tryharding yourself.

VOTE: herta for this

Voting herta while not pushing it and discrediting one of herta's attackers (skitter.)

[Scoliosis]

Reads I feel confident:

Town: KT, Ydra, innocentvillager, val, unwnd, (toto)

Scum: Pookythebear

Reads I don't feel confident:

Town: herta

Neutral: Dannflor, geraintm, freedom,

Scum: skitter

515 explaining my shift here. I think if I am wrong on skitter then geraintm and herta look much worse.

[Scoliosis]

Okay I had a pocket scum read on skitter last night but I feel better about her today for some reason.

unwnd do you scum read anyone yet?

Posting here on a hunch.

gera what happened here?

Posting here on a hunch.

gera what happened here? I felt let down.

this game has taken so long to get going, ive been in the queue for ages

im going tobe so out of my depth with this game, excuses now for bumbling through it.

anyways, Wales off to play Iran in 19 minutes. i am hopeful of a 2-1 Welsh win

im going tobe so out of my depth with this game, excuses now for bumbling through it.

Actually what is this your I'm an inept clown scum game? I've seen that before.

VOTE: gera

...

Pooky swoops in and takes over

VOTE: scoliosis

Herta, what's up with that read trajectory on geraintm? Why does it look like you two are pushing each other for distancing? Geraintm is voting you while dissing skitter.

[Scoliosis]

Somehow I feel like pookythebear/herta/geraintm makes as much sense as pookythebear/skitter/unknown lurker. Either way, I don't think town will win unless pookythebear is voted out.

My suggestion if you hammer me is to vote out pooky next because I think they are most likely to be scum. Then, instead of voting out skitter or herta, I would vote out geraintm, because I think that reveal will be most useful and herta and skitter are more engaged.

[Scoliosis]

It would help if someone else tried to figure the game out. Val and Skitter seem to be on a nit pick contest. I like unwnd more recently but I get the sense they are good scum and can pull this off.

Scol seems to be the only one doing some actual thinking and has some sort of town stance. Everyone else is perma afk

Scol emotions towards unwnd dont make any sense to me if he’s town. All this if x then y crap reeks of scum logic.

It's a good thing toto is the ic and I don't have to figure out if this is genuine.

[Scoliosis]

Like how the hell you dont think unwnd is naive and gullible and not scum trying to get you killed is beyond me.

I could ask you the same question about pookythebear. The difference is this:

No no I'm fine with playing this out actually and like your perspective (of all fucking things)

VOTE: Scolosis

hyyyyyype

VOTE: scol

It was pookythebear's vote who created the flashwagon, not unwnd. Pookythebear didn't vote me until he saw that unwnd was doing it first. I feel like you fail to understand the significance of this, toto.

[Scoliosis]

Before I continue finishing my response to toto, I want to comment that 523 is a great example of what I look for in a townie wallpost and 532 is a great example of what I look for in a scummy wallpost. Let me go take some screenshots to attach to my post to show you how credible I am.

[Scoliosis]

Like how the hell you dont think unwnd is naive and gullible and not scum trying to get you killed is beyond me.

Why can’t it be s+s or why can’t pooky be wrong town and unwnd scum pretending to be convinced?

The first question is good.

It's not s + s on principle that scum don't try to pocket other scum. Scum can try to pocket town or vice versa, town can try to pocket town, but the dynamic between pookythebear and unwnd means that they can be deduced down as a pair unless there is some really unusual reason you have to the contrary.

For your second question,

I already explained why it makes more sense that unwnd is the town and pookythebear is the scum in 530. The logic really doesn't get much more clear than that. If you won't think about what I'm saying then you won't understand:

If the wagon were to go through on me, unwnd and KT would look worse than Pookythebear, because they were the ones who voted first. The fact that pookythebear waited to switch his vote onto me until after he saw unwnd vote me is a sign that pookythebear knows I will flip town and unwnd doesn't know I will flip town. Also, it's significant in a game of this size for a wagon to move from 2 to 3 votes and this is something that I expect scum to be more prepared to take advantage of than town.

[Scoliosis]

Unwnd if you're town I suggest you re evaluate how you think about this game on a fundamental level.

[Scoliosis]

I feel like 534 catches my eye in terms of the observations made.
While Scol made a great point on Dann, I don't think that it's fair to call Pooky's wallpost scummy without explanation.
Pooky's post was pretty clearly supposed to be a scumcase on Dann.

Pookythebear's wallpost shows a fear to post in the thread and a need to be accepted which dannflor's wallpost does not. Pookythebear's wallpost is intended to confuse and bloat the discussion while dannflor's is adding to it. If you can't see it for yourself then there isn't a lot I can do to help.

[Scoliosis]

Your immediate response to two or three votes (four counting IC) was pretty much 'oh well town sux you know my reads peace'.

The only reason I unvoted is my unfinished business with Herta and me trying to decide how I feel about your egotism

Are you even town unwnd, or am I just completely off track with you? You've made several awful posts in a row which I could swear look like you're scum egging on Pookythebear and I.

[Scoliosis]

I feel like 534 catches my eye in terms of the observations made.
While Scol made a great point on Dann, I don't think that it's fair to call Pooky's wallpost scummy without explanation.
Pooky's post was pretty clearly supposed to be a scumcase on Dann.

Pookythebear's wallpost shows a fear to post in the thread and a need to be accepted which dannflor's wallpost does not. Pookythebear's wallpost is intended to confuse and bloat the discussion while dannflor's is adding to it. If you can't see it for yourself then there isn't a lot I can do to help.

This being said, I'm starting to wonder now if the traits I'm observing in pookythebear are nai and if unwnd is scum who just doesn't understand how wagons work.

VOTE: unwnd

I'm curious where this goes. My sixth sense that I'm getting played is tingling.

[Scoliosis]

Why do you refuse to cooperate?

Mmm I'm not biting, this looks like flame bait.

[Scoliosis]

I'm trying really hard to see things from your POV but I can't quite get there.

Can you summarize what you want me to answer and what you don't? I'm starting to feel like this is town on town.

[Scoliosis]

I want to check if unwnd/herta/geraintm makes sense as a team.

[Scoliosis]

This wagon will yield lots of juicy info

Yes and don't forget that I was "setting up lims" earlier. A "high info" lim on a player who was "setting up lims." What more could you ask for on D1?

[Scoliosis]

I know this back-and-forth doesn't need my input but I'm not sure if pooky buries himself on a mislim on you, scol?

Maybe pooks disrespects me that much that he thinks I wouldn't immediately throw his thread credibility out of the window if you're town

This just reads like TMI to me that unwnd knows pookythebear and I are town.

[Scoliosis]

Shut the fuck up Flavor Leaf

Alt outting should be a crime.

[Scoliosis]

VOTE: geraintm

I've decided I like my pookythebear/herta/geraintm solve the most, and I prefer this wagon because I feel reasonably confident geraintm is scum and it gives more time to figure out the other slots.

[Scoliosis]

Boy i am not a fan of Scolosis style of play for day 1. day 1 i think is worthless, and they are reading so, so much into everything.

I feel like it's NAI as town!Scol does it because they want to solve while scum!Scol does it to create content.
I'm leaning towards town!Scol because he does seem to be trying to do some solving.

It's true that this is nai for me, and this comment is ai for geraintm as he's shading players for solving (under the pretense of disliking d1) instead of playing the game.

[Scoliosis]

like I'm giving him the oppurtunity to sort me and explain his read and he's like "nah you're scum I won't talk to you"

so it's not really a "he doesnt have time to engage" or real life time issue - it's just he is actively choosing to not sort or engage and instead just make declarative statements and lamist.

This is scum ate and not really convincing in my eyes.

No it isn't.

It's possible that it isn't. I think it could be unwnd instead of pookythebear who is taking advantage of your blind tunnel, I'm a bit conflicted between those two.

[Scoliosis]

My mind is only made up because of interactions like this one, if you cared for engaging with me, maybe I'd have changed it.

No it isn't, you are completely confbiased, it's very easy to see.

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while being dismissive of anyone who points out contradictions or asks you to explain a bit more.

That's not true, I answer questions when I think it will be worth it. Notice how I responded differently to val than I did to you, that was because you communicated that you were asking questions because you were looking for reasons to convince yourself that you're right (or just scum going through the motions) whereas it seemed with val that they were actually reconsidering their position.

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And the townread on me is a pocket/appeasement attempt. Not falling for that bait.

This is what confbias looks like. If I don't answer a question then it's my fault because I'm belligerent, if I answer a question then it's my fault because I'm trying to appease. This is why I choose not to interact with certain players, it's just a waste of my time.

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When did I say you answer questions because you want to appease? Now you're misrepping me.

Okay champ.

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The most significant post created over the last 24 hours was 572. In the grand scheme of things that's what I care about.

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geraintm [1]: innocentvillager

Geraintm now has two votes and I don't plan on unvoting for probably the rest of d1.

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I've decided pookythebear is probably a confused town who can't make heads or tails of this game and that unwnd/herta/geraintm is a better solve.

What changed my mind ultimately is that, despite pookythebear being the third vote on my wagon, I feel unwnd implied they know that both pookythebear and I are town here:

I know this back-and-forth doesn't need my input but I'm not sure if pooky buries himself on a mislim on you, scol?

Maybe pooks disrespects me that much that he thinks I wouldn't immediately throw his thread credibility out of the window if you're town

And it's not just cause he has a scumread, it's just the way he's gone about it. The position he finds himself in. It's not like his slot was being closed in on. This thread had little direction until Pooky came in. That is honestly rare form from him, especially considering the circumstances. I really would like you to debate the prospect of why scum would behave this way. This isn't D4 where Pooky needs to secure a mislim (or get himself out of a bad spot), it's D1 where we know fuck all.

Your dann case gets my noggin joggin

I feel more comfortable keeping him null because I'm just not ready to give up the ghost on herta. Your reasons are the equivalent of 'trust me bro' and when I voted scol I was doing exactly that. However, I think Dann has a good point. Why is Herta exempt from his muted perspectives and unwillingness to clarify?

I just don't see these posts coming from an uninformed unwnd who doesn't already know that pookythebear and I are town. It feels like they are deliberately trying to pump up pookythebear in the way that scum do when they have identified an easy mark.

If you mis lim me today then you should eliminate geraintm on d2 imo. Like I said, my best guess for the team is geraintm/herta/unwnd.

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VOTE: geraintm

I've decided I like my pookythebear/herta/geraintm solve the most, and I prefer this wagon because I feel reasonably confident geraintm is scum and it gives more time to figure out the other slots.

can you elaborate on how/why you are reasonably confident on geraintm

Yes, after I posted 515, which explains where I first started to ruminate that geraintm might be scum, geraintm posted 572 which is exactly the kind of post I expected scum to make from his position. Even without already having built a cogent world view containing scum geraintm, I would have scumread him or anyone else for posting 572. I think there is a self-defeating aspect to geraintm's play where he truly doesn't wish to have to play the game (because he rolled scum), and if he must play it, then he prefers to do as little as possible. Ironically, this is not unlike the play of our ic, Toto.

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I've decided pookythebear is probably a confused town who can't make heads or tails of this game

This is a really weird description of someone who is aggressively tunneling you and putting out confident solves that rubs me the wrong way

From my point view, pookythebear is aggressively pushing a read which I know to be wrong, so I think my description is fair.

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I believe KT and pookythebear have both caught a bad case of Flavor Fever, which unwnd and herta are attempting or have attempted to capitalize on.

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From my point of view there’s no doubt that geraintm will flip scum. He is active now that his slot is on the line, and as soon as attention drifts elsewhere he will disappear again. I have nothing to add except that I urge anyone who is conflicted about geraintm to review some of his scum games and see for yourself that this is a very surface level iteration of his usual scum tactics.

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Yes, after I posted 515, which explains where I first started to ruminate that geraintm might be scum, geraintm posted 572 which is exactly the kind of post I expected scum to make from his position. Even without already having built a cogent world view containing scum geraintm, I would have scumread him or anyone else for posting 572.

@Scoliosis: What was geraintm's position as you saw it when you wrote this?

I said before I had picked up a slight townping from 572 myself, and it was his later actions that swung the needle the other way.

I believe he felt pressure to craft something which would generate town pings because he had lurked out of the early game discussion and was aware that he could attract heat for creating a normal post (which would remind others that he is in the game and has yet to produce anything.)

but i think someone who puts that much weight into basically saying i’m just a little day one guy probably Believes it in a way

This isn't a good take because multiple players have already pointed out that this is his default approach as scum, and while he may complain about similar things as town, he is also capable of producing meaningful content as town. (777, 778, 836, 838, 303 and 651)

Are you townreading gera now, Freedom?

Not yet.
I feel like their refusal to claim feels a bit odd.
Though, I would consider them nullish.
UNVOTE:

His refusal to claim is +scum.

Geraintm's scum strategy can be broken down into three layers of defense:

On the first layer he disappears whenever possible, hoping that others will forget he is present in the game. (His absence of meaningful thought and refusal to get involved with the content between 332 and 572, not to mention most of the discussion which he lurked actively through between his posts 18 and 330.)

On the second layer he pretends to be meek and humble, hoping that others will feel sorry for him and vote someone else. (330, 763, 767 -which is refuted by pookythebear in 836 and 838-, 854 which is unbelievable, 857, etc.)

On his third and final layer he creates intrigue and confusion about his role, hoping others will become uncomfortable with the ambiguity behind his refusal to claim and move on to someone else. (894)

I dont really get why Gera would townread Scol "because he is overconfident town and not going to burn himself up here"

Diverting Scol's wagon to Gera (the most likely counterwagon at that point in the game) seems exactly what scum would do in that situation.

I would argue that my wagon is now the diversion from gera's wagon.

I look at VCA and it annoys me

Gera has his vote parked on herta
whom Herta is not even voting back
Meanwhile Scolosis 'believes herta/me/gera' is a team
and Herta is currently voting for Scol, completely ignoring Gera's vote entirely

They all both kinda suck in retrospect

Gera's vote is literally from RVS
Herta was just sheeping pooky
Scol pulled a gera vote out of his ass after being pressured

Ironically, I'm currently considering a skitter/herta/geraintm solve, which at least on a surface level looks even stranger in VCA.

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VOTE: unwnd

I don't really understand your read progression on geraintm.

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scoli basically already claimed VT when he did his "this town is bad and you all know my reads alrdy shtick"

Yes, I am a VT.

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I'm starting to think that you have some role that is rare for Town to have.

Yes and geraintmn doesn't have a fake claim prepared yet so he's milking the mysterious card.

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Are you townreading gera now, Freedom?

Not yet.
I feel like their refusal to claim feels a bit odd.
Though, I would consider them nullish.
UNVOTE:

His refusal to claim is +scum.

Geraintm's scum strategy can be broken down into three layers of defense:

On the first layer he disappears whenever possible, hoping that others will forget he is present in the game. (His absence of meaningful thought and refusal to get involved with the content between 332 and 572, not to mention most of the discussion which he lurked actively through between his posts 18 and 330.)

On the second layer he pretends to be meek and humble, hoping that others will feel sorry for him and vote someone else. (330, 763, 767 -which is refuted by pookythebear in 836 and 838-, 854 which is unbelievable, 857, etc.)

On his third and final layer he creates intrigue and confusion about his role, hoping others will become uncomfortable with the ambiguity behind his refusal to claim and move on to someone else. (894)

I see.
I had thought that his refusal to claim was just a playstyle oddity.
Though, it does seem like maybe it isn't as I thought.
VOTE: gera again.

I thjnk refusal/cryptic/drawn out claiming is on average quite towny in my empirical experience. Scol’s theory is like possible but it’s more of a hindsight/confbias narrative kind of read imo

I don't agree with this by the way and your vote switch makes me raise my eyebrows a little bit.

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Here's a sneak peek of my reread of d1, in order from left = strong to right = weak

Town toto, iv, val,

Town lean unwnd, ydrasse, herta, freedom, dannflor,

Scum skitter, kt, pooky

I will vote whichever one of my scum reads will actually reach 7 votes. I think voting someone other than those three names might be a throw, unless I'm making another terrible mistake.

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Don't really think scum throws their entire team on gera is the point I'n making

I agree, I believe there was one scum on each of gera and I and one scum who was off wagon(s) entirely (skitter.)

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Scum skitter

Distancing?

Scum skitter, kt

Chainsawing?

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Dannflor/Ydrasse/Skitter

Town-town-scum

Toto, IV, KittyTacky.

Town-town-scum

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I'm linking pooky's drop in scum play with demoralization from the failed night kill.

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I'm linking pooky's drop in scum play with demoralization from the failed night kill.

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complacency is bad

can you elaborate on your answer? I'm genuinely very curious because this was not at all my feeling upon entering this Day 2. Do you just "reset" your reads every game day? I don't feel like you do.

I generally don't reset but that's because I'm generally very lazy and I realized after watching Ausuka crush it in pictures that letting a read build on itself is a good way to lose games.

Sounds pretty convenient for an excuse to just FoS whoever you want.

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In before someone subconsciously associates pookythebear telling the truth about ausuka winning Pictures with pookythebear telling the truth about why he is throwing reads around at random

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The main thing that stops me from wanting Scol is just how absolutely dead the gamestate was at EOD. gera was likely to go through but not at all certain. If Scol was scum I would've expected more activity/more urgency from both Scol and his team to move towards gera.

I guess we disagree on how dead gera was and how close the vote was because multiple people were clamoring to vote for gera and I don't think scol had more than 4 votes at the end?

I think the only disagreement is that iv's conclusions are unhelpful toward pursuing your win con, and you wish that iv would help you pursue your own win con instead.

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In before someone subconsciously associates pookythebear guiding iv toward second guessing his position (just like he did d1 to unwnd) with pookythebear being genuinely trying to solve the game

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Like how the hell you dont think unwnd is naive and gullible and not scum trying to get you killed is beyond me.

I could ask you the same question about pookythebear. The difference is this:

No no I'm fine with playing this out actually and like your perspective (of all fucking things)

VOTE: Scolosis

hyyyyyype

VOTE: scol

It was pookythebear's vote who created the flashwagon, not unwnd. Pookythebear didn't vote me until he saw that unwnd was doing it first. I feel like you fail to understand the significance of this, toto.

They had spent the prior like 10 posts mutually moving towards voting you. I think reading through that sequence is more important than who actually placed tbe vote first, as it explains the leadup/motivations of the vote

They voted within a minute of each other, and i would actuallu characterize this sequence of posts as unwnd following pooky's lead on the wagon, even if unwnd technically voted first

I don't think we can rule out either svs or svt the other way here from that sequence at all.

Explain. Explain how pooky isn't the scum and unwnw isn't the town in that interaction, and explain how the exact same dynamic isn't happening now between pooky and iv.

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The main thing that stops me from wanting Scol is just how absolutely dead the gamestate was at EOD. gera was likely to go through but not at all certain. If Scol was scum I would've expected more activity/more urgency from both Scol and his team to move towards gera.

Similar, I was thinking that your vote switch between me and gera makes no sense really from an informed perspective.

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scoli basically already claimed VT when he did his "this town is bad and you all know my reads alrdy shtick"

i have thought about this some more and i no longer want to vote out gera

i think you are right that i am letting my raw hatred for his playstyle cloud my judgement and that it is unfair for me to insist on yeeting someone simply because i find their playstyle and obstinance completely intolerable.

In before someone subconsciously associates pookythebear guiding iv toward second guessing his position (just like he did d1 to unwnd) with pookythebear being genuinely trying to solve the game

resetting all my reads

these are off the table for me today:

Toto, IV, KittyTacky.

I want to know what Dannflor/Ydrasse/Skitter want to kill

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Sell me on scum!Kitty.
He seems all right to me.

He's scum hiding in a fake tunnel on me for the wifom. It's not super common but seems like an appealing niche for him considering:

My Scoliosis townread is kinda eroding ngl. The last 2 posts just seem to be looking to be made to start an early push (it's 2 pages in) on pretty flimsy reasoning.

Scoliosis is obviously town and i'm starting to scumread you

By meta I don't think kitty's scum.

That's all I got

@herta i was going to ask the exact question but i continued reading and saw toto did and didnt see a point in asking it twice

But when you didnt really explain when toto asked you (71) i decided to ask 74

Usually when someone says something like 'i don't think x is scum by meya' i expect them to (be able to) follow up that statement with a sentence or two of an explanation explaining their reasoning and how they got to that conclusion

You've made the claim, the onus is on you to back it up, not on me to start reading old kitty games

I don't have any particular reason to disbelieve that statement, but i don't have any reason to believe it either, and i want to know why you made it

And i asked cuz i was curious if you had any thoughts on it

Fair enough. Every game I've played with kitty that he's been reasonably engaged and stick-to-his-guns as in going deep on a hunch and apparent genuine curiosity he's been town. There's one difference but I'm going to sit on that right now and let it develop to help my read because I'm not sure about an aspect of it.

I have used this strategy as scum before by leaning into how town states I should be acting. Also notice how the player eliciting this information for kt to use is skitter herself.

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VOTE: val89

19 looks like a scum post to me.

I suspect Testarossa too for posting 17. By comparison, 6 doesn't include a vote so it isn't trying to blend.

1. How so?
2. It's not trying to blend... because it's by the IC.

IMO this kind of weird comment (2) is townish.

In my opinion, kt was free to go either way with his read on me as of this post. It wasn't until skitter got herta to elaborate what he townreads kt for in 93 that kt decided he would stick with his tunnel on me, since he realized that would get him townread and require little effort.

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I see.
I think I get it now.

Do you believe it though?

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Scum skitter, kt, pooky

I will vote whichever one of my scum reads will actually reach 7 votes. I think voting someone other than those three names might be a throw, unless I'm making another terrible mistake.

VOTE: pooky

VOTE: pookythebear

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Don't really think scum throws their entire team on gera is the point I'n making

Gera practically made a jester play. I don't think scum being all on him is as implausible as scum being all on town usually is.

Legit losing braincells thinking about the evaluation that would lead to a VT essentially taking the bullet for a wagon they have no way of knowing is scum or town, when he KNEW he was fucking TOWN.

I just want Scol out. I never "went back", my ultimatum only had the purpose of squeezing out a claim from Gera, which failed. Don't let Scol slip into the shadows with his silence.

First I'm clueless town for one reason, now I'm scum for the same reason?

There's an explanation, sure, but it doesn't make much sense given his prior actions around me imo.

I expected you to re evaluate more than the above with the flip and the night actions and the time away from the game if you are town. I was expecting to see something from you which looked like insight or effort at the start of today.

I think sticking with your d1 scum read shows you aren't confident you will be believed if you fake a new scum read. I'm sure you know 1389 isn't a reason to scum read someone because it's easier to keep repeating the same lie than it is to constantly invent new ones.

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Idk Pooky and Scol both feel kind of scummy today, Scol’s scumminess sort of started yesterday

I kinda doubt it’s SvS though? I mean maybe? But unlikely

I think I want to vote in these two slots today so I’m interested in how this fight develops.

Yeah I hate to break it to you (not really, I love it) but I'm expecting you to carry this game and I'm not intending on fighting it out with my scum reads. I feel like you've come close to solving this game two or three times now and I feel like I'm potentially throwing you off trail with my stinky "scumminess." I don't know what to say other than that it isn't me, I swear.

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I feel like I am still well within my scum range but yeah, if I had to pick one thing, I feel like an svs with pookythebear here would be a big waste of time and could easily backfire. Maybe I could see myself playing along with the distancing as a form of damage control (while yelling at him in the scum pt) if pookythebear initiated it first. I don't think pookythebear would initiate svd either though if he were scum because I think as scum at the moment he is looking to create viable mislims for town to follow.

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I have no reason to think Freedom is town but I think it anyways

Agreed and add yourself and Dannflor to this category, for me.

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Scol why do you think you are scummy?

I don't think I'm scummy, I think I'm null and within scum range.

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I'd ask for a reads list from skitter, kt and pooky, but I don't think skitter and kt will bother to fake one and I already know scum pooky can make one up at will.

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Meh, still skitter-kt-pooky imo. I don't think any of my town reads have become stronger or weaker either.

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Why Pooky again?

You didn't ask yet.