Mini Normal 2294: Monkey Business (Endgame)

[Klick]

I'm a Town Compulsive Visitor. This seems like the sort of role to claim straight away. I'm probably going to choose a player today and very loudly target them every Night as long as both of us are alive.

I'll read up tonight. I've not read anything but the last page but Gimli is town everyone trust me

[Klick]

Still haven't read, can confirm that voting geraintm D1 is a waste of time

Vote him out D3 instead when you still have no clue what his alignment is but you have less options for scum

[Klick]

... sometimes I genuinely wonder how other people see the world.

Do this much much more it's the best way to scumhunt effectively and also it's a good rule for life!

[Klick]

4 pages in and I think Ausuka is just scum?

[Klick]

For the record I have both Comus and Elsa for town.

True

[Klick]

town enchant would troll but be less forceful about it, while this enchant is making too many jokes and trolling things that feel a bit exaggerated, I'm picking up a weird vibe about it.

True

[Klick]

Also Comus is locktown.

Keep posting correct things Magical Girl pls

[Klick]

I read 7 pages last night before falling asleep lmao

TOWN
Comus
Elsa Jay

LEANING TOWN
Gimli
Magical Girl
Kokichi Oma
KawaiiKame

NULL
geraintm
Dionysus
nepenthe

LEANING SCUM?
Save The Dragons
Enchant
Ausuka

[Klick]

Spoiler: casing enchant

i am drunk

saying 'i am drunk' as a standalone sentence is scummy

i am drunk

who are your partners?

pls don't bus me

self aware scum

I think we should kill elsa jay and magical girl so i will remain as only magical user here

wants to kill townies

why create alt just to reveal it at first pages

something he'd never comment as town

please no one post so 20 page never happens

self aware scum af

You can't do anything to me i already prepared fakeclaim

scum joke

I am cop

scum joke

Wait do we have werewolfs here

scum joke

I trying to find excuse to vote Gimli so it doesh't look like OMGUS

scum joke

Fine you got me i fakeclaimed

In reality i am actually mason

scum joke

I think Kawaii is mafia

bad read

I'm not particularly townreading

Enchant

but your case is just... bad!

VOTE: Gimli

Nahhhh

[Klick]

I hope your reads don't change by the end of this Gimli they're just accurate

[Klick]

I read 7 pages last night before falling asleep lmao

TOWN
Comus
Elsa Jay

LEANING TOWN
Gimli
Magical Girl
Kokichi Oma
KawaiiKame

NULL
geraintm
Dionysus
nepenthe

LEANING SCUM?
Save The Dragons
Enchant
Ausuka

I am not impressed

I read 7 pages last night before falling asleep lmao

TOWN
Comus
Elsa Jay

LEANING TOWN
Gimli
Magical Girl
Kokichi Oma
KawaiiKame

NULL
geraintm
Dionysus
nepenthe

LEANING SCUM?
Save The Dragons
Enchant
Ausuka

kind of stinky tbh

Haha did I hit 3 for 3

[Klick]

Menalque replaces Dionysus

Oh my god this game is lit

[Klick]

Also Comus is locktown.

i am not going to say that, but they are giving off hard "bad townie" vibes, i would find it hard to believe scum would just be like that

@salsabil - glad whatever i said pleased you so much

its quite an extreme tvt yes

You seem real certain about a lot of things. I'll bite on geraintm even though 'not liking day ones' is absolutely not alignment indicative, geraintm can be a possible villager for other reasons. And they are voting you, making me curious why you believe them to be a villager. The reason.

i came back this morning hoping to approach it fresh and leave you alone.
yet you go and post like that.
you are literally trying to read into things from my vote.

which is random!!!

there is some discussion about comus, me and elsa all being town. i know i am, i give a good lean that way to comus but i have no idea about elsa (not actually interacted with them)

What even is this D1?

Do you have any reads?

Comus vs. Elsa is absolutely baffling to me, Comus is hyper-aggressive while Elsa is hyper-defensive, admittedly I feel Elsa with being randomly attacked in RVS, though that battle got this game out of RVS, feels town vs. town

Gimli pursuing Enchant on meta is something I do not like, minimum the change of the meta Idek indicates scum, not implicates

Enchant is...random, Idek what to make of the playstyle, playing and having fun is enjoyable tho

I like that you asked me to give reads, Idk why someone forgot you

I like Magical Girl, Ik just saying that is a skeleton read but that's my initial impression

I need to read this game in depth, this is what I have now

Almost forgot Dio, I'm with him in this game taking time to thinking about

Nono voted me, I think? Feel I'm missing why

this post weirds me out, basically because i am not mentioned in it at all yet they lead off on Comus vs Elsa?

This is really good content gera!

[Klick]

Early townreads:

Comus

,

Ausuka

,

Nono

Early scumreads:

Gimli

/

Enchant

,

Elsa Jay

,

Magical Girl

(?)

Rests are null..

wtf

why you have BOTH us as scum

okay thats good

VOTE: kawaii

my case was shit

Nah I don't think so

[Klick]

If people get pushed by a bad angle their reaction to it will be genuine regardless of their alignment.

So everything Elsa is doing is good? What Gimli is doing is good? I never hard pushed Elsa on a 'bad angle' as you describe it. Elsa assumed or manufactured that that was what I was doing, then arguing in circles. I said it's a possibility, Elsa launches a pre-emptive strike despite me not calling them a wolf at all at that time, votes me but publicly admits they won't sort me. Now they come in with one-liners and don't attempt to solve anyone. Just says Ausuka is good.

What matters is not whether or not it's good but instead whether or not it's town

You have to play the game with the players you have, not the players you want

[Klick]

This is really good content gera!

is that sarcastic?

is that a U8 football coach pepping up the worst player on the team?

No I actually just really liked it
Regardless of your alignment I think posting more open thoughts like those will help quite a bit with your D1 play

[Klick]

Gonna catch up in full but Ausuka is on the hitlist

[Klick]

Ok well if the scumteam is enchant and dionysus and kokichi, that's great, yay for us. I am going to operate under the assumption for now that at least one member of the scumteam is currently playing the game

I just fundamentally disagree with the logic that being involved in the game should make someone a townread and i don't think elsa's content has been particularly towny. I don't think trying to look at people's given thoughts and see if they come from a town mindset is a waste or 'picking' things at all.

When you've got two relatively inactive buddies

[Klick]

@Ausuka: Little of both? I like to create a head theory and see if it fits the evidence

[Klick]

Lunch break got me through Page 15. I was going to update my reads list but literally nothing has changed. Magical Girl and Kawaii are more clearly town than they were a couple hundred posts ago. I hope the dead slots start being less dead soon.

[Klick]

Comus you have a very narrow image of what 'a villager' does

[Klick]

I really like elsa jay in this game, why does half the thread scumread her? this makes no sense to me, why, what did she do that's giving off scummy vibes?

This is the reaction Elsa Jay always gets from people who try to read Elsa Jay like she's Average Mafia Player

[Klick]

Comus you have a very narrow image of what 'a villager' does

Talk to me when you have something to ask or contribute, I don't have a taste for empty philosophizing.

Could have convinced me otherwise

[Klick]

Dunno how many Kawaii is at but I would really like to catch up in full before any vote goes through, much less someone I'm currently townreading

Menalque I see you, I just want to finish catchup first.

[Klick]

so, in the aim of getting day 1 over with as quick as possible VOTE: Elsa Jay
i will continue for the rest of today to follow the wisdom of the crowd

Absolutely bad vote, 0 wisdom in the crowd, unvote now
Why follow the mob? The tyranny of the majority? What utility does eliminating Elsa give us? None, 0, in my pov

Why does anyone think this is scum

[Klick]

At the moment Ausuka feels slightly >rand scum. I could see her being town but think scum is more likely.

In contrast I think Enchant is rather likely scum

[Klick]

the reason why 'this is normal enchant' is a thing people say is because they never pay any attention to enchant. when he is town he is great to work with, a real asset to the team. here he is like 'im cop im mason', thats his fucking scum game.

This is 100% accurate.

[Klick]

Gimli's hard town lol

[Klick]

That's wrong

[Klick]

so enchant still scum

idk why you care about his read on you when you scumread him

Ding ding ding

[Klick]

Ok well if the scumteam is enchant and dionysus and kokichi, that's great, yay for us. I am going to operate under the assumption for now that at least one member of the scumteam is currently playing the game

I just fundamentally disagree with the logic that being involved in the game should make someone a townread and i don't think elsa's content has been particularly towny. I don't think trying to look at people's given thoughts and see if they come from a town mindset is a waste or 'picking' things at all.

When you've got two relatively inactive buddies

so enchant still scum

idk why you care about his read on you when you scumread him

Ding ding ding

We are comrades in terrible Klick pushes

I'm catching up and posting what I think. I'm not 'pushing' anything yet. I probably won't even 'push' anything when I'm fully caught up.

[Klick]

gimli, std and klick

You are probably #4 tho sorry

Maybe kawaii is up there too meh

Your response to my as-yet-complete catchup is hilariously overreactive

[Klick]

I specifically said >rand scum for you not >50% scum lol
I didn't say that about Enchant either

[Klick]

At the moment Ausuka feels slightly >rand scum. I could see her being town but think scum is more likely.

In contrast I think Enchant is rather likely scum

You literally say I am more likely to be scum than town here and same with enchant?

And

literally

in that exact same quote I say you're 'slightly <rand scum' but you don't want to talk about that
I also contrast my position on you with someone who 'is rather likely scum' which implies that's not my position on you

When I say I 'think scum is more likely' what I mean is that you're more likely scum than random
I'll concede that I phrased it poorly but it should be clear what I mean if you apply what I've said in its context

[Klick]

How would you expect me to read that as *anything* but being scum is more likely than being town?

I thought you might read more than one sentence in my post

[Klick]

Then you don't have an accurate perception of what I'm like as town

[Klick]

I'll finish catchup now and then push for day end with you all then
I agree that this should end sooner rather than later, the game has grown 1.5x since I've replaced in

[Klick]

I'm on Page 30 and here's where I'm currently at

TOWN
Elsa Jay
KawaiiKame
Gimli
Magical Girl
Comus

LEANING TOWN
Kokichi Oma
geraintm

NULL
Dionysus
nepenthe

LEANING SCUM?
Ausuka
Save The Dragons
Enchant

[Klick]

Ausuka actually does get significantly townier in the 30s pages
I feel alright about her response to me too

I think I remember a game recently where I scumread her fairly strongly and she was just town and it was playstyle differences I was reading into? I could see that happening here.

[Klick]

do i have any town reads? um

kinda like ausuka, magical girl, gera

I don't like the implied order of thought here

[Klick]

What the Farnsworth??????


just Kill Gimli.

OR Kill Magical Girl, cos, Magical Girl is Magical Girl. Or Kill Elsa. Elsa is obvious Vanilla Town.

I know the people on this site like to kill vanilla town.

Like.

It's a real fun thing thing.

Mafiascum people people kill vanilla town cos................... ((((((((((((((({{{{{{{{{{{EGO}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

So. I'm vanilla town.Elsa is vanilla town. Gimli acts like he's vanilla town.

Two options:

Kill Elsa, a real vanilla town.

Kill Gimli, either a goon or a well........... vanilla town?

Kill Comus, a vanilla confused town.

OR.................

jUST.......

VOTE: No Elimination

EITHER We mkill Gimli, Me, or No One.


Seeing you all/////

We vote no Elimination today!!!!!!!

But if we kill Gimli or me ...... good. Kill Gimli=Maybe get a wolf. Kill Comus = Comus is gone, done, tired, no need to influence and catch wolves. So. Very Important WINE choice. Norns. Odin. Fates. Sepedi, Zulu, Mulungu.

Just vote someone out.

I'm bored.

Tbh I'm wondering if I was wrong to townread Comus
Comus!scum is bouncing around in my head
I'm not going to act on it immediately or even probably today but I want to reevaluate Comus later

[Klick]

(I’m joking about the solve btw. Comus is locktown and I’m 100% confident in that one)

Alright I'll trust it again for the moment

[Klick]

I don’t feel particularly rushed but it’s really hard to coordinate anything in 1 day left in deadline so I prefer coordinating start earlier.

Yeah but for the past 2 days it's been like that. Its weird

Last 2 days I don’t think there were any progress in general either.

So how about switching gears a bit?
Everyone post 3 names (Not 1. Not 2. 3.) who they want to see eliminated today.

{dio, Nono, STD}

{STD, Enchant, nepenthe}

[Klick]

I'm getting tired
I get good enough vibes from Menalque's posting today? Not a confident read but I want sleep

TOWN
Elsa Jay
KawaiiKame
Gimli
Magical Girl
Comus

LEANING TOWN
Kokichi Oma
Ausuka
geraintm

NULL
Menalque
nepenthe

LEANING SCUM?
Enchant
Save The Dragons

[Klick]

VOTE: Save The Dragons

This is absolutely the vote that should be happening today

[Klick]

Salsabil felt like she was trying to project towny rather than actually doing town things
STD has a very distinctive town meta and so far this ain't it

Both independently pretty scummy and together this slot just flips wolf like almost every time

[Klick]

I have a very vague memory of it
It agreed with my take on Salsabil so I kind of skimmed past it

[Klick]

Look theough Kawaii's ISO.

One topic: Elsa. I've never seen something like it.

Why you so convinced Elsa's cop claim is a fake claim? Tone? Show evidence of this tone, Elsa is uncc'd cop Idek why she's being pushed as a potential elimination option

[Klick]

Look theough Kawaii's ISO.

One topic: Elsa. I've never seen something like it.

This is disingenuous af and I feel you know it, me talking about Elsa extensively does not invalidate me asking how Elsa's cop claim is fakeclaiming by tone alone? Elsa is not my one topic either, why do you strawman me?

Instead of answering my question you dodge it by saying I talk about Elsa a lot...

Pretty much yeah

Why you so convinced Elsa's cop claim is a fake claim? Tone? Show evidence of this tone, Elsa is uncc'd cop Idek why she's being pushed as a potential elimination option

[Klick]

Kawaii don't feel compelled to respond to Comus spend your Mafia time budget solving instead

Did you play Magical Girl's 'pick three people you would be most okay limming today' game?

[Klick]

Kawaii don't feel compelled to respond to Comus spend your Mafia time budget solving instead

Did you play Magical Girl's 'pick three people you would be most okay limming today' game?

Do you have an eliminating 3 game?

Yeah, {STD, Enchant, nepenthe}

[Klick]

spend your Mafia time budget solving instead

How do I solve?

Lots of people have lots of different ideas about this and most people aren't great at it. The way I do it is often to try to get a decent understanding of the psychology/socialization of a particular player and specifically how they would choose to play as town, and then use that to judge whether they are town genuinely meeting those expectations, or scum with some other goals in mind.

[Klick]

Someone asks for reads and top 3. i don't want to but i'll do the bare minimum

I've got the player list below and if i have any thoughts i'll stick them next to them

KawaiiKame
Save the Dragons < replacement, did a very long catch up which let them get in loads of reads that never meant anything
geraintm
Dionysus < i don't remember them at all. and realise why, they have been replaced but the Page 1 post from mod doesn't show this so i literally have no idea what this slot is doing. must be melanque, but i don't remember their posts either.
Magical Girl
Gimli < people seem to like pushing here
Elsa Jay - was this the one who claimed cop or Enchant?
Comus < i had them as town early doors, but i can't remember why now exactly and i fear i have given them a clean slate for something 50 pages ago
nepenthe - can't remember them at all
Enchant - was this the one who claimed cop or was it elsa? Who ever it was i am giving a slight town lean for being too dumb as scum claim like that
Kokichi Oma
Ausuka < i keep seeing long posts from them which seem argumentative. but i don't know what about
Klick

to vote off - really don't care, but i think comus, gimli & ausuka all talk so much they should not be eliminated because they'll give themselves away at some point if scum.

this is a 62 page day 1....

this is a truly awful list

Not sure if you're reading this as an ordered reads list, I don't think it's meant to be that

[Klick]

Town:
Klick, actively giving reads/feelings, encouraging me to solve, unccd tcv, reads align with mine
Elsa, unccd cop
Comus: Aggressively solving/pursuing who he thinks is scum, pursuits against me + Elsa is anti-town but town should be forgiven w/ anti-town pursuits since lack of knowledge exists until flips
Gimli: Feeling town since the beginning, mainly in attitude-emotional read, I like his pursuit of an STD flip
Magical Girl: Magical Girl's Big Wall places MG in town to me, continuously solving/inquisitive,

1. Gimli is not noob to get cleared for this. Daytalk while need to be confirmed, is mostly status quo.
2. WHERE THE FUCK CHAIN OF YOUR LOGIC, I DON'T EVEN SEE MENTION OF PT.

1. Are you trying to tell me that Gimli put a very subtle thing like that out of nowhere in hope for someone to pick it up can try to clear him for it? “Subtle” and “hoping that someone picks up” are two opposite thing.
2. “Idk if Elsa interacts with a partner like that” = “idk if Elsa blatantly tells her partner that a Townie looks like PR (because scum PT is locked)”

50/50
Ausuka: Hard to read, giving the benefit of the doubt with activity/the last posts I say she leans town in my eyes
gera: Town? Idk
nepe: I like what nepe says, not much to go off of tho in quantity
Kokichi: My read on Kokichi keeps flipping like a pancake, I fos Kokichi emotionally but looking back this isn't enough to be okay with eliminating
Enchant: Absolute chaos, the true embodiment of 50/50, I see Enchant flipping in any/all directions
Menalque: Giving emotional reads against me/Elsa, might be something, might be nothing

Scum Likely:
STD: Pushes against me out of left field with not being inquisitive enough, I'm failing to buy it, it doesn't feel explicitly solving unlike Comus

I believe these reads!

[Klick]

Mena is town

[Klick]

Oh

[Klick]

Mena your point about my confidence has given me a lot of thoughts but I am very slightly not sober so I'm not liking the words that are coming together to express that thought

[Klick]

Basically there is part of me that is expressing overconfidence. It's somewhat conscious and somewhat subconscious. I am trying to work on being heard in the thread and influencing things because I currently feel like my reads are above average lately across a few games.

Although there is the question of whether that is overconfidence or whether I was underconfident previously and have adjusted properly.

[Klick]

Here is a slightly more accurate representation of where I am at in this game atm

TOWN
KawaiiKame
Menalque
Comus
Gimli

LEANING TOWN
Elsa Jay
Magical Girl
Kokichi Oma
Ausuka

NULL
geraintm
nepenthe

LEANING SCUM?
Enchant
Save The Dragons

[Klick]

klick you're wolfing in this game aren't you

This is the natural progression of every single game I've played in the past year

I post thoughts
People have opinions on these thoughts
Those opinions ultimately culminate to 'we all think you're scummy but we're going to leave you alive all game'
I get to D5 and evolve

[Klick]

I find it strange that you've gone from townreading me to scumreading me without much impetus

[Klick]

I'm not sober give me a break
I don't think STD's reaction actually necessarily spewed him town

[Klick]

Neither does that

[Klick]

I don't know what my thoughts are on STD getting lolhammered
If I did I'd post them
I say what I want people to hear

[Klick]

I'm going to target Ausuka tonight

[Klick]

Doooooon's stop

[Klick]

I'm not sober give me a break
I don't think STD's reaction actually necessarily spewed him town

I think your posting has been scummy in twilight and I think being not sober and being scummy are different things. your solving pales in comparison to your towngames, even though it was in agreement with my leans so I liked it.

but anyway. yeah std isn't necessarily town which means I scumslipped please kill me

I just will keep solving cause I can't help myself

You don't know my play as well as you think you do

[Klick]

okay

btw are you really townreading me? I'm a little shocked how did that happen

I don't know mate I vibe with a lot of things you say
I think that's a bias I lean into really hard but it's probably good to do so

[Klick]

Lmao are you secretly as drunk as me gif

[Klick]

Bodyguarding Elsa is... a weird choice.

[Klick]

Uhhhhh

[Klick]

It would blow my mind if MG/Elsa were buddies.

[Klick]

Holy shit

[Klick]

Bodyguarding Elsa is... a weird choice.

Is guarding a cop claim really that weird

Okay to be fair I forgot that Elsa claimed Cop.
It also doesn't make sense that you would choose to die before Elsa if you were buddies.

[Klick]

Ausuka is town

[Klick]

I should just stop forcing myself to have scumreads at all because I'm rarely actually confident in them

[Klick]

PoE is the future

[Klick]

I'm still V/LA and not really here
But my first instinct on seeing the nightkill was very much that I was wrong on Elsa and she planned on killing Magical Girl to try and make it look like Elsa was protected

[Klick]

information overloadddd

[Klick]

Gera's posting today is hard town lmao

[Klick]

I'm on vacation visiting my family for the week, I thought I'd have a bit more time for this game than I have had so I didn't declare V/LA, sorry about that.

KawaiiKame

geraintm

Menalque

Gimli
Elsa Jay
Comus
Skygazer
Enchant
Kokichi Oma
Ausuka

This is where I'm currently at. I'm rather confident that those three are town at the moment. I have leanings beyond that but I'm not in a place where I am confident and want to put weight on them.

I am not fully engaged at the moment though tbh. If anyone wants to ask me things in particular I'm happy to dialogue about it and that might help? Won't be around for much longer tonight.

[Klick]

I think out of the remaining players I'd be fairly surprised if Gimli or Kokichi were scum

I think Elsa Jay and Comus were particularly easy for me to townread yesterday due to confidence and brazenness and reasons related to that. Right now I think that was probably fallacious and they just have a personality I am biased towards townreading and at least one of them will probably flip scum.

[Klick]

Elsa/Comus/Enchant would be a fun team

[Klick]

Right. My head will be invested in this game starting this evening. I was heavily invested in trying to pull a win out of this game (unsuccessfully): viewtopic.php?t=90425&start=6525

And obligatory vote post- that game ending:

VOTE: Gimli

[Klick]

UNVOTE:

So everyone should at least be aware that Gimli's scum game is, like, very very good!

I have a reasonably strong townread on him in this game, though, using that one that just ended as context. He feels fully engaged in solving and scumhunting and doesn't feel like he's setting up partners to me. Gimli's most likely town... but that's never going to be a full clear.

[Klick]

Menalque in fact is solving more than most people lele

This is accurate and I think you're town for this observation and similar ones

[Klick]

Menalque you asked me a bit earlier what I thought of Ausuka
I think she reads as town here, but I also feel that Ausuka is someone I'm less confident in my ability to read accurately so I don't feel confident committing on it

[Klick]

If anyone wants to ask me things in particular I'm happy to dialogue about it and that might help?

hi! I see that kawaii gradually moved up in your reads when I went through your ISO -- why did this happen?

what do you see as townie about kokichi? I don't disagree but I'd like a second opinion and currently a decent number of people are trying to kill them

what's your opinion on ausuka atp?

I'm kind of surprised to see myself in the people you're confident are town -- I saw that you said you're generally feeling your reads more than you used to, and admittedly I have been trash as scum recently, but I'm still a lil surprised to see myself up there. is there something in particular you're TRing me for or just a vibe or what's going on there?

Noting this post for later because I'm not in a place where I can respond satisfactorily to everything here but I want to answer these

Just answered on Ausuka. For slightly more context, I believe her solving and think it looks genuine. She has an authentic take on the gamestate that town would have

You're very similar to Ausuka there, except I trust my ability to read you more. I keep reading your posts and consistently go 'yeah, I believe you believe that'.

I'd add more context but I have to go now lmao
I'm back from holiday in 2 days and then my actual activity will be less sporadic

[Klick]

In very brief, I think elsa is likely scum but not so sure about Kokichi. They're both reads I want to refresh on though.

[Klick]

I think it's worth noting that Gimli has 370 well-thought-through posts in this game

while

he was playing his heart out in a solo scum game throughout the entirety of this game.

I don't think Gimli is scum at all really. I think this game has been an outlet for legit town solving while he was expending a lot of effort winning a scum game in Hollow Knight.

[Klick]

Time to solve

How can you scumread a post like this with no follow-through

[Klick]

Ausuka, Kokichi Oma, Magical Girl, Menalque...

Who're the rabbits? Who're the wolves? Who hunts by moonlight and who are being set up as fools? The world is turning and so the sun dies another death, the silver eye of void staring down 'pon all. Who will fall? Will a final howl be howled? Death stalks, cowled. We must skitter, slither, slide, go deep into our holes and hide.

Voting in Ausuka, Magical Girl, Kokichi Oma and Menalque tomorrow will expose two wolves.

I think this is more evidence in favor of Comus!town
I think the scumteam were legitimately so unconcerned by Comus's influence on the game that they killed Magical Girl despite Comus repeatedly putting her in his list of people to kill today
I think Magical Girl being killed directly indicates Comus's reads not being on scum's mind at all, not Comus intentionally aiming for Magical Girl
ESPECIALLY since the kill was intended to look like Elsa was protected by Magical Girl as a Bodyguard

[Klick]

If I trust my current reads quite a bit this is where I end up

KawaiiKame

geraintm

Menalque

Gimli

Elsa Jay

Comus

Skygazer

Enchant

Kokichi Oma

Ausuka

[Klick]

Which looks really interesting up against this...

Vote Count 1.0.6

Save The Dragons

(7):

Gimli, Ausuka,

Klick,

KawaiiKame, Comus, Menalque,

Magical Girl

Kokichi Oma (2) Elsa Jay,

geraintm

KawaiiKame

(1):

Save the Dragons

Klick

(1): Enchant


Not Voting (3) nepenthe, Kokichi Oma

With 13 players it takes 7 to eliminate.

The thing is with the set of potential scum that remains I can entirely buy that STD was an all-town wagon.

[Klick]

@klick

I never try send guess scum's motivations for their kills, at the end of the game when the scum pages are opened up it is always for some odd reason

I agree with that in principle
I do think there are certain things that can be assumed based on reading personalities and behaviour though

In particular, it is much easier to identify what someone would

not

do as opposed to what someone

would

do

For example, I think Comus as scum would

not

choose to kill Magical Girl when considering the reads he had posted in the thread

[Klick]

Scum and scumteams choose to do weird things all the time but there are plenty of things they very seldom do

[Klick]

If I trust my current reads quite a bit this is where I end up

KawaiiKame

geraintm

Menalque

Gimli

Elsa Jay

Comus

Skygazer

Enchant

Kokichi Oma

Ausuka

So your theory is that whole mafia team busses shit out of self?

... Honestly it's not that insane theory considering how i played... Ugh what this game where i claimed neopolitan eh.

I find this to be a really weird response
Specifically, 'the whole Mafia team bussing the shit out of itself' makes sense if the team is exactly Enchant/Elsa/Kokichi
But if Skygazer is scum, that's not really true

So Enchant's response assumes I'm talking about an Enchant/Elsa/Kokichi scumteam

[Klick]

Time to solve

How can you scumread a post like this with no follow-through

No he will still follow through I believe

No I think they will too
Just, I think it's rather not-scummy to be like 'time to solve!' with no intention of immediately delivering on that promise
It shows Kawaii's intention wasn't to look good from the solve attempt, otherwise they would have given something significant to back that perception up

[Klick]

VOTE: Kokichi Oma

Okay time to show me you're town Enchant

[Klick]

Awesome, 2 down

[Klick]

VOTE: Elsa

[Klick]

I voted Kokichi for the meme and then got on a plane lmao

Kokichi shoot someone pls preferably not someone obvtown

[Klick]

Yo Gimli I'm town

I'm on a plane and I've not been asleep in many hours but I want to be more correct about this game especially if Elsa is flipping town

If you're town we need to solidify who is town for correct reasons and who is a bad read

What are your confident townreads that you flat out can't see being wrong?

[Klick]

What are your confident townreads that you flat out can't see being wrong?

My answers to this are Kawaii and Menalque as like my 100%ers, with geraintm and Ausuka being close behind and interesting discussion topics

[Klick]

Is Elsa actually not hammered? I saw like 20 votes in a row and assumed I was overkill

[Klick]

I was 8th vote on Elsa

[Klick]

I don't really get Enchant town at all sorry

[Klick]

I think I should have Comus as town.

Ausuka is where I could see myself being wrong but like in theory Ausuka's partners should be catchable unless it's like specifically... you

If we're town and merge our perspectives we're left with, uh, Elsa/Kokichi/Skygazer. Which isn't going to be right.

[Klick]

Right you both have an Enchant TR then

[Klick]

I'm going to target Ausuka again

[Klick]

i generally try to treat people similarly to how i perceive them to be treating me and i am sorry if i failed to do that.

i don't think koki has much chance of being scum here, but maybe it's not that much worth discussing since he seems self-sorting. enchant i don't really think is likely to be scum at all and if he is that's just a L for me

Klick if you are talking to me pls can you talk about your mena read

The basic answer is that I believe Menalque's perspective on the game. I believe his reads and their progression. I think his paranoia on me feels natural in particular

[Klick]

if u target someone else i can target them and prove you're a compulsive visitor

Actually is there even any point in doing that

I'm fine to do this if we establish it now?

[Klick]

I could target Gimli

[Klick]

I'll only do that if Ausuka confirms it

[Klick]

i'll target enchant, just to confirm, since implo could lock the thread at any time

Fine with Enchant

[Klick]

I feel like half of this game wants to hard troll

[Klick]

I feel like half of this game wants to hard troll

Yo I might have missed this but who did you visit N1?

Ausuka

[Klick]

I think we need to stop putting down votes and properly fully massclaim

[Klick]

Everyone wants to speculate on what might have happened last night when the correct play is for us all to claim ASAP without any of that speculation so that scum can't play around our perceptions

[Klick]

I am still a Town Compulsive Visitor
I targeted Ausuka N1 and Enchant N2

We need to make a list, I understand if I'm not currently in the position to be making said list, but find a method and make one

[Klick]

13er with 4 dead vts
I'm vt
kawaii claimed hider
enchant claimed shield doctor
ausuka is a visionaire
klick is a compulsive visitor?
comus is vt
mena
gera
sky

I appreciate the question mark of doubt

[Klick]

My personal claim order atm would be

Skygazer
Menalque
geraintm
(Comus, Enchant, anyone else who decides they should probably stop lying about their claim should claim ASAP)

[Klick]

Above all though, I think we should take today slow. Discuss our genuine thoughts on the gamestate, get into why we think them, whether they're based in truth, etc. We're behind enough that we're going to have to play today well to turn it around.

[Klick]

I think wagon analysis for the last two days is going to be fairly interesting considering the flips we have but I'll wait until claims are out before getting into it

[Klick]

Massclaiming is important in positions like these. Better to do it today than get another vote wrong and do it at ELo.

[Klick]

massclaiming probably isn't a bad idea but i don't see the need to like, put down our votes or whatever

I am less interested right now in arguing with comus and gimli and more from hearing from skygazer, geraintm, kawaii, klick, menalque

I want to ask why the enchant claim doubt, but if we're massclaiming it makes sense to do that first before we start discussing the setup

Feels we massclaiming only because we don't know what else to do, I'm completely lost/confused in this game I feel everyone else is too, everyone knows my role, was tempted to hide behind Kokichi, dodged a bullet

Why were you considering hiding behind Kokichi?

[Klick]

Absolutely cool with that thank you geraintm

[Klick]

VOTE: Skygazer

[Klick]

This is a distraction from the massclaim that is currently happening and needs to happen

My vote is overtly pressure to get Skygazer to claim faster
I agree that E-1 is not advisable in this position but I also believe that anyone putting Skygazer at E-1 is essentially scumclaiming

[Klick]

Comus' stated suspicion on me is largely conjecture without proper evidence or critical thinking

[Klick]

Decent chance scum in gimli and klick. All voting behavior, and today esp:no analysis.

I have explicitly stated that I think analysis should happen today but should wait until everyone has claimed

No way I'm trusting klick or gimli here. Wolfy behavior.

Don't 'trust me' or anyone at all through just blind trust
Trust the thing that I'm saying (that massclaim should happen here) because it is objectively the best play in this position
If that is something you disagree with, you can say why

[Klick]

Let's discuss it. Why do you think massclaim is bad idea?

[Klick]

I have a lot of exciting both theoretical and analytical things to discuss and if you're town Comus I think they're especially important for us to discuss before coming to incomplete conclusions about me being scum for, uh, voting quickly

[Klick]

The fact of the matter is that if scum aren't stupid, 5/6 town need to vote together today to eliminate scum. That is heavily on my mind. It means that if you're town, and I think it's entirely realistic that you are town, we are almost certainly going to have to cooperate on choosing an elimination target in some capacity today.

If you want to railroad this into a shouting match where you say what you want to say and then leave the thread like you have the last two game days, go ahead. But if you're town it is very unlikely to lead to a win in this game.

[Klick]

I think Gimli is a realistic option for scum if that helps! These are things I would much rather discuss after we all claim so that scum can't base their claims around them though.

[Klick]

Your play here feels very similar to your play in HMS Mutiny, which I followed closely because Bella was in it.

This game feels like it's on trajectory to be lost in a very similar way.

[Klick]

I understand the idea of having an aversion to people trying to control things. I have a similar problem with that. I think a lot of people do. I particularly dislike when people try to control social situations through disingenuous means, with motivations that don't have sufficient conviction.

That's why in situations like this as town I recently have been pushing for things that can be literally shown to have positive value for the town. Then no one has to worry about the possibility of it all being some clever scum plan if that's a concern of theirs. Because they can discuss the plan, see why it's a good plan for the town or express why it isn't.

[Klick]

Have a look at this thread Comus:

viewtopic.php?t=90488

It's a Mafia Discussion thread I posted a little over a month ago. It was posted before this game started, so it was not influenced by my alignment in this game. I intend to advocate here for a strategy like the one expressed in this thread. I think it's important because I believe that expecting 5/6 of this town to come together and agree on someone to eliminate who is scum accurately is unrealistic and we need a better plan than that.

[Klick]

You're attacking things that are a result of how I play. I don't really have much to say about them other than they don't mean I have a red Role PM in this game.

I voted Skygazer because I didn't like that they agreed with massclaim but then didn't claim for ages as one of the last people who haven't claimed. It shouldn't be hard to understand that the longer the claiming takes, the longer scum have to organise a good claim for themselves.

[Klick]

UNVOTE:

If that makes you feel more comfortable

[Klick]

Probably for the best that you didn't read that thread anyway, I suspect you wouldn't have been a fan of the contents ideologically.

I think the rules that you set for yourself are limiting your play, but I understand if they are necessary.

I think you're rather likely to be town.

Also leaving the thread, I've got stuff to do. Talk later!

[Klick]

It shouldn't be hard to understand that the longer the claiming takes, the longer scum have to organise a good claim for themselves.

???

It's also fairly easy to understand that scum would like to claim as fast as possible to avoid the exact sus Sky has drawn right now, and probably would have talked among themselves as to what they might claim.

I do agree with this as a general statement fwiw!

[Klick]

I'm having a hard time imagining scum teams that don't have skygazer in them. I figured everyone else has given me a reason or two for a townread.

I have the same thing but there are problems that I have recently found with this line of thinking

Problems that I would much prefer to get into...


...after massclaim

[Klick]

Do what you want, I just think it's better not to do reads yet
The gamestate isn't going anywhere because the claims haven't happened yet, not because we're not talking reads

[Klick]

i did read mena's iso over night and i am not really townreading him right now

i don't have a massive issue with the dictator plan if we can actually find someone everyone townreads that much

I did this too and felt similarly which concerned me.

[Klick]

we likely don't have a town vig, that's two nights with no extra kills. if we do have a town vig then mafia got blocked or enchant made a save etc etc. mafia would already know about it, while all townies except for the vig are in the dark

The thing is you want info like this to NOT be public knowledge before scum have to make their own assessment of it with a claim

I agree with you!

[Klick]

I'm fine with Menalque before Skygazer, the main reason I didn't list it that way previously was because that was unaligned with my D2 reads strongly enough that I thought it might alarm scum!Menalque

[Klick]

I really don't read Gimli as scum atm but I struggle to trust myself on that read for very obvious reasons.

[Klick]

@Gimli

What I'm reading as town is the fact that what you're currently arguing is something I can totally buy as where your genuine town perspective would be at this moment

Whereas in Hollow Knight there was a clear potential self-serving motivation to everything you posted from like D3 onwards (stuff like the 'my plan involves shooting me look how town I am!' plan)

I also don't feel like you're propping up anyone in particular with your posting

Which I think either means you're not scum, or you're scum with other competent scum players like Ausuka and Menalque or something lol

Does that make sense? Thoughts?

[Klick]

I'm not really the right person for the question either sorry Comus

I did look quite obvious in hindsight in hollow knight, didn't I. I thought furtive would tell at some point, which is why I pocketed him first with the vig gift.

Nah you made up for it with very strong distraction/obfuscation. It's easy for me to analyse stuff in hindsight, but at the time I was only somewhere in like 75ish% confidence on you being scum.

[Klick]

I think it's likely that Sky is just busy and it's NAI

I think pressure to claim sooner than later is the best approach regardless

[Klick]

I don't think Kawaii is advanced enough as a player to the level of fakeclaiming as town to try and draw kills so I don't think the absence of doing that is scum-indicative for them

[Klick]

I don't make such assumptions about people.

Making assumptions like this is my primary and basically only reliable method of scumhunting. I believe it is a vital skill both in Mafia and in life to be able to critically infer information like this.

[Klick]

I mean you're going to see a lot of tied interaction between myself and Kawaii because they've basically been my only consistent townread

The problem is your reads know hold as much weight as their accuracy
How do you assess how accurate your reads are?
How do you convince others your reads are accurate?

[Klick]

The problem is your reads know hold as much weight as their accuracy

only* hold as much weight as their accuracy

[Klick]

It's really easy to say 'I think the scumteam is XYZ' but until you lay the groundwork of

why

that is a belief that is sufficiently justified, it's not a belief that has grounds for continued repetition in the thread or basing other things going on in the thread on

Like yes you have a right and a choice to state your belief in it and do whatever you want with it

But without sufficient justification it holds little weight

[Klick]

I'll reassert that massclaim is still a very good idea

[Klick]

Okay enjoy!

[Klick]

Spicy

I have thoughts but I'd like Kawaii to check in and respond to that claim

[Klick]

I think the most likely outcome is that Skygazer is telling the truth and Kawaii is scum
But there are other possibilities

[Klick]

The Role would be named Combined Doctor Shield
'Combined' is the modifier

[Klick]

The Role would be named Combined Doctor Shield
'Combined' is the modifier

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Combined

Link for proof

[Klick]

Fine i guess no choice.

I am combined Doctor+Shield. My N1 target are Klick.

Vig is obvious role which I can't heal without receiving bullet in my head, that's why i believe Kokichi from D1.

You can vote someone else now.

This was Enchant's claim - he claimed Comined from the start.

[Klick]

I'm bothered that Skygazer didn't claim this yesterday but it's not implausible that she just didn't notice Kawaii didn't claim a Modifier, or wanted to wait on the info until more roles were out.

[Klick]

Encanth

[Klick]

Fine i guess no choice.

I am combined Doctor+Shield. My N1 target are Klick.

Vig is obvious role which I can't heal without receiving bullet in my head, that's why i believe Kokichi from D1.

You can vote someone else now.

This was Enchant's claim - he claimed Comined from the start.

Hmmmm true.

My bad. Was sure it wasnt like that.

No worries - I went through the exact same thought process and went to check the original wording as a result

[Klick]

So 2 scum in geraintm/Menalque/Gimli/Enchant/Ausuka, huh? That's a fun pool

[Klick]

I wish its just ausuka and kawaii and whoever else but the more I look at that the more it seems like way too townsided to me as a setup.

Right now I'm leaning more towards the Kawaii/{geraintm, Menalque, Enchant} side of things

[Klick]

I'm bothered that Skygazer didn't claim this yesterday but it's not implausible that she just didn't notice Kawaii didn't claim a Modifier, or wanted to wait on the info until more roles were out.

i remembered kawaii was a PR and thought that they had claimed a modifier; i think i got confused when i had initially skimmed and thought they said they were weak

also been rlly out of it lately tbh

I 100% believe this

[Klick]

I think Kawaii is mafia

I think I am mafia, but the real me is town

Hey Kawaii, when you see this, could you @ me back by quoting this post please?

[Klick]

Can you confirm quickly what your role is?

[Klick]

massclaiming probably isn't a bad idea but i don't see the need to like, put down our votes or whatever

I am less interested right now in arguing with comus and gimli and more from hearing from skygazer, geraintm, kawaii, klick, menalque

I want to ask why the enchant claim doubt, but if we're massclaiming it makes sense to do that first before we start discussing the setup

I have a cold and my head hurts and my sinuses hurt and I don’t want to do anything that involves using my brain

I do want to murder my neighbours given how fucking loud their tv is

If I feel better later I might be around, if not then probably tomorrow

You should definitely claim the second you see this.

[Klick]

But otherwise, I do sympathise and hope you feel better!

[Klick]

Just, truthfully claiming does not require any thought.

[Klick]

massclaiming probably isn't a bad idea but i don't see the need to like, put down our votes or whatever

I am less interested right now in arguing with comus and gimli and more from hearing from skygazer, geraintm, kawaii, klick, menalque

I want to ask why the enchant claim doubt, but if we're massclaiming it makes sense to do that first before we start discussing the setup

I have a cold and my head hurts and my sinuses hurt and I don’t want to do anything that involves using my brain

I do want to murder my neighbours given how fucking loud their tv is

If I feel better later I might be around, if not then probably tomorrow

To clarify, there's a guilty on you and the longer you put it off, the worse it looks for you.

[Klick]

You still haven't done it!
Glad it got your attention at least
PEdit: there we go

[Klick]

I just had a week off, it was glorious
Enjoy break!

[Klick]

Eiralox is Comus

[Klick]

Oh lol Ausuka hasn't given up. Hopes menalque will save scum because menalque thinks, somehow, skygazer is bussing kawaii here.


Yeah this game is over.

*yawns*

Just like yesterday! Funny how that works

[Klick]

I think Sky/Kawaii both being scum is a very interesting theory and I'm considering it

Not in depth right now though. Maybe late tonight.

[Klick]

I don't think I care all that much about victory,

¤ Play to win - but most importantly, have fun!

Please play to the rules.

[Klick]

I hate that site meta has basically become 'be right on Day 1 or Day 2 otherwise the two townies who don't care about winning will make it endgame'

[Klick]

I have ethical issues with them
Blacklists are better than playing with someone just to vote them out at the start

[Klick]

I think MG suggested it would basically just be like a named townie and I can buy that

I mean I agree but shrug I don't think named townie is meaningful outside open setups

pedit; ask my parents tbh

The real question is would firebringer and isis think it’s meaningful outside an open setup?

I don't really think so, no?

So you think sky has to be town?

I mean yeah kinda

I think I agree but I also thought the plausibility of Skygazer being scum was a really good thing to exist
I think Skygazer is just town

[Klick]

VOTE: Comus
Who knows, maybe I'm wrong on him

[Klick]

Don't play in further games with me.

[Klick]

UNVOTE:

[Klick]

I don't think Kawaii being town here is unreasonable.

[Klick]

I don't think this is the approach Kawaii!scum takes to claiming.

If they're scum, their partners have offered basically zero support in this position. So like, geraintm and... I can't really imagine who else as scum would produce this result.

[Klick]

Unless they're scum who just... didn't check the scum PT at all until after confirming their claim? And then claimed 2-shot afterwards off some advice?

That doesn't feel right.

[Klick]

Claiming straight Hider is just such a bad way to play the position as scum though
Changing the claim immediately after is even worse
And there's an amount of confidence required to do it in the way Kawaii did that implies Kawaii wouldn't be that poor of a scum player

[Klick]

My take: not impossible that kawaii is town who fucked up hard, but we would deserve to lose if we didn’t lim someone who fucked up their claim that hard (NB: given that we assume sky town for balance reasons)

Unfortunately I care way too much about coming to what I think is a definitive truthful answer
There are certain things that cause me to drop that value
Poor claims aren't one of them

[Klick]

The worst part is when Kawaii flips town Comus' behaviour won't change at all

[Klick]

The worst part is when Kawaii flips town Comus' behaviour won't change at all

No it will but only for roughly 48 hours

On a serious note, are you saying you're like actually certain Kawaii is town or something?

No and I'm not sure where I've implied that
I lean towards Kawaii being town with what has happened

[Klick]

I'm stepping away from this game until at least tomorrow morning

[Klick]

you really waited until now to claim Commuter??

[Klick]

@Comus: I just don't understand why you believe what you believe and you haven't shown a lot of interest in explaining it compared to how much you want to shove it down the throats of everyone else in the game. Which is frustrating in any situation, but especially when I am aware that you're wrong and it makes it much harder for us to get anywhere. I see poorly-justified hyperconfidence so often on this site, there is very rarely decent basis for that hyperconfidence, it's wrong much more often than it is right, and it makes it incredibly difficult to have actual meaningful discourse. Because actual meaningful discourse is possible to have in these games, it's the primary reason I play them.

When you make statements about levels of confidence, unless you can back it up through some background of having been incredibly right before, there's no reason for anyone to follow you on them unless you can explain how you came to the conclusions you came to.

I find it very likely that you are overstating your level of confidence in your reads for influential reasons (or other reasons that are similar). Is that accurate? If so, are you willing to have a real conversation about your real reads, their strength, and the thoughts that led to them? I'm willing to hear out your ideas behind Kawaii/Ausuka being scum together, but I want to look at them myself, form my own conclusions, and discuss them with you, even if you are currently in a place where you feel really confident about them being scum. That's how we're going to come to an accurate answer as a group.

[Klick]

I would maybe scumread klick's unwillingness to engage with comus cause I thought klick was more patient than I am but he is totally 100% in his town meta this gameday

could be a wolf but I don't think he tries to save town from itself as scum. would you, klick? just to get back at me?

The level I've gone to to try to get town in a good place today is further than I think I'd go as scum yeah

I have linked the Mafia Discussion plan thing in a scum game before (the one with furtive and Ceph) but I didn't do much other than that to influence the gamestate because it was a won gamestate

I actually want to turn this into a favorable position for town and I think you can see that

[Klick]

I know you said you don't like the philosophical/meta/etc conversations Comus, but I mean this as a genuine piece of advice. You can take it or leave it but I'm saying it because I think it's important myself and you might find it helpful.

One of the coolest things about Mafia to me is the fact that, at the end of the game, there is

an answer

. One answer, one solution to the game. Everyone can argue as much as they want while a game is ongoing, but after that game is over the truth becomes clear.

And so what you can do is, when that game ends, you can go back and look at the things you posted, the things you thought about others, and evaluate them with the

literal objective truth

as a guide. Was that hard gut read I had correct, or did I misread their personality, or was it something else entirely? Did that person make that horrible play because they were scum, or because they misunderstood something? How good were my reads

literally

, in an objective sense, instead of how good I think they are?

I know you have said you don't like meta or outside influence, I don't assume to know why that's the case and you're free to your opinion on that. But I find that going back at the end of games and looking at

why

games like this with one truth play out the way they do after they've ended gives me so much context for truth as a concept, not just in future games, but in evaluating life situations.

But that's just my perspective, for all that it's worth

[Klick]

we definitely need time