Mini 855: Colorless Rainbow Town (Halted for list mod error)
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d3x Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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- Location: Burbank, CA
But Fuzzywuzzy wasn't fuzzy, was he?
Vote:Manz-
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d3x Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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- Joined: April 27, 2009
- Location: Burbank, CA
And so you should be. For I am the spy that saps your puny SG.Scien wrote:If Nikanor is afraid of you, than so am I.
Aside from all that, I find the MM/Manz conversation interesting. Immediately after the Rule had the listed quote, it further said...
Emphasis mine. These are clearly proScum PRs.Other players may have received role PMs describing other normal mafia roles, including but not limited to cop, doctor, vigilante, serial killer, mason,role-blocker,traitor,poisoner, survivor, miller, andgodfather.-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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I agree on the Scum part, but why would the Town not be equally concerned of the Scum knowing their roles?MM wrote:I would think that scum would be concerned about the town knowing their roles, not town.-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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I can see where MM is coming from on theDizzle wrote:
That's an attack or an attempt to incriminate you?Manzcar wrote:Why does it matter Monkey what roles are out there?potentialimplication of this question. I do not read any sort of attack here, though. I likewise don't see any direct attempt to incriminate.-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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Wait. I just went back and reread this interaction and it went as follows...
p8 MM- 'No Scum Power Roles.'
p11 Manz- 'Why does it matter?'
p14 MM- 'This is why I think it matters.'
p15 MM- 'Vote Manz b/c you're concerned about the Town knowing the Scum make-up.'
*disclaimer- These are paraphrases
That doesn't look right to me. You just said that you Voted because he was being 'over-antagonistic towards a player'. To me it reads as a player asking for clarification. You Votedbeforehe made his supposedly scummy comments. Can you give me a bit more information about the initial Vote?-
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d3x Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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- Location: Burbank, CA
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d3x Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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- Joined: April 27, 2009
- Location: Burbank, CA
I understand and agree. When I said 'you' in my paraphrase of p15, I was speaking in the first person as you. Notice I said 'I' in the same manner in p14. To put it another way, I was saying that you Voted Manz because he seemed concerned about the Town finding out about the Scum roles.
Regardless, my point stands. You claim that he was being over-antagonistic towards you while you were trying to find out potentially beneficial information for the Town. I'm saying that him asking 'why' in the context and timing of the discussion doesn't seem antagonistic to me.
Above you said that you don't think a proTown player would ask 'the question'. The question was 'why'. I am looking for clarification regarding your Vote against him.-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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Clarification- p59 was directed at MM's p56.
I love how quickly this game is developing!-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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So to clarify, you Voted him because you felt that his asking...
...was anti-Town?Why does it matter Monkey what roles are out there?-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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Can you point to where this occured?Raivann wrote:I dont like Manz's jumpin on MM for noticing the difference in Mods rules or sample PMs or whatever.-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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That's not the only odd thing about the Vote Count, Zee.-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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Manzcar is listed as Voting for Fuzzyman and MonkeyMan576.-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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I know. But you arecurrentlylisted as Voting for both and it's currently counting as you Voting for both. That seems a little odd to me.
ZEE- I believe the positive Votes are counted against the negative Votes, thus making your net Vote on someone with both would be 0.-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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I am a little concerned that Raivann couldn't come up with anything concrete in his response to my p81. The feeling I'm getting is Scum trying to get the wagon rolling along without completely understanding the argument. No one was accusing Manz for 'jumping on MM' yet that's what he didn't like about Manz's play and yet he couldn't come up with a single specific instance?FoS:Raivannand anUnVotefor posterity's sake.-
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d3x Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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Another scummy post from d3x? Where was the first? Where did you point out the first?
Yes you did. And I asked where this happened. You responded in a generic manner without addingI was saying Manz was jumping on MM.anythingto the discussion. My 'argument' is that your actions didn't really follow the vein of why Manz was considered scummy. Adding to this is the fact that Manz didn't Vote MM until after your comments, so please don't try using that to justify your comments in hindsight.
I do however like your OMGUS on me. Perhaps you'd like to enlighten me on what 'cases' I've been making up out of thin air and why it would be a problem to start a case during the RVS. How else would we get out of the RVS? Is the ScumKmd game the only one where this has happened? I also find it interesting that you're trying to link me to Manz this early.
An UnVote for posterity's sake means that we're clearly out of the RVS and I don't think that my Vote should still be there.-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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Alright Raivann, let's try this a different way, maybe it's just a terminology thing. How do you personally build a viable case?
And...
I don't know where this came from. Firstly, you were talking to MM. Secondly, I don't think I've comeYes, believe it or not MM & d3x, I can read and process information.anywherenear a line to cross where I'm insulting your ability to read and/or process information. If I have, then I'm sorry. This does not mean that I'm going to back down on my questioning/Scum Hunting you, but I want you to know that there's nothing even remotely personal here. I just think you're acting in a very questionable manner {read- scummy}.
Finally, have you no response to the rest of my p124?-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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I see what you're saying now. I was calling you out for being opportunistically scummy there. Essentially, I saw a play that could easily be a Scum seeing a negative trend developing on a player and jumping on without needing to understand the case, thus getting it wrong.
The combined with your most recent play gives you aVote:Raivannin my book.-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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+1ZEEnon wrote:I think you misunderstood what Fuzzyman wrote because I don't really understand what you are saying, MonkeyMan576.-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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d3x Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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- Location: Burbank, CA
@MM- Now that we're all on the same page, what do you think of the original quote in that pyramid? ZEE is saying that he doesn't want to Vote because of the possibility of a quicklynch over the weekend. How viable do you think that is?
@Fuzzy- What do you think of Raivann's read on you?
@cruelty- You've said that RoleFishing Scum PRs is dangerous, how advantageous do you think it is? Do you believe the risk is worth the reward?
@Dizzle- You said that you were awaiting Raivann's justification for his read on Fuzzy. He gave it. What are your thoughts on his response?
@Sweep- Post something damn it.-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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With that interpretation of how it would go down, do you think ZEE withholding his Vote is questionable?-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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I don't disagree with your p173, but I do wonder if your feeling is so hardline now, what exactly were you looking for when you said...I look forward to hearing Raivann's reasoning.-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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Well, as you can see from my p136, I have since upgraded and Voted him. That's not what you asked, though.Scien wrote:Why not the full vote.
I did not Vote at first because he could've said something completely reasonable and alleviated the vast majority of my concern. As he did not do that and continued to act scummy, imho, I Voted him when I felt I had a solid read on him.
I'm not a huge fan of Voting around. Given certain context, I actually see that as a Scum Tell. I like to have a suspect and Vote that suspect once I have a good read on them.
Why should we? I personally don't think it's a bad thing to not have a Vote down at all times. I believe that especially in the early parts of the Day, it can be helpful to sit back and view the cases before committing to one*. While I understand that the Vote isn't permanent, I feel that the power of your Vote diminishes the more you throw it around. If you're bouncing around Voting everyone, you are ultimately pressuring no one.I'm kind of surprised no one has called me out for a non RVS vote yet.
*Disclaimer- I am not refering to lurking, active lurking, being inactive, or not helping. I am saying that you can watch, follow along, and participate productively in building cases without needing to Vote.-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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cruelty- Aside from telling us about things that annoy you {and have little game relevence}, how's about answering p168? Or commenting on the speed with which the Raivann wagon has built to L-2? Or stating an opinion of MM's reluctance to go L-1, but has no problem with L-2?
MM- Dizzle makes a great point. You went L-2 without batting an eye. There are more than one Scum in this setup, I'd assume. How does your play act as a deterent from an early Scum Hammer? It seems like you want to participate on a lynch without taking the responsibility of your actions. Also, if you just Voted him to L-2, why are you heavily entertaining the notion that Scum will Hammer? Doesn't that mean you think Raivann has at least a better than average chance of being Town aligned?-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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Ninja'd. Still the other points are valid.Or commenting on the speed with which the Raivann wagon has built to L-2?-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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Touche. We can only see what you write and the brevity with which it's delivered. I was just saying that it's odd that you'd be willing to go L-2 but would actually voice a negative opinion about L-1 in the same post. That's all.I wouldn't say I didn't bat an eye. I thought about it carefully.
Given my statement regarding this in my previous post to you, what are you thoughts?I just don't want to give the scum opportunity to lynch without discussing it
Do you think that if Raivann is Scum, his partners would Hammer him early to stifle discussion and in essence silence him?I am leaning scum on Raivann-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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MM-You say that you want more discussion and that you want Raivann to understand the gravity of the situation. You also say that you wouldn't rule out a Town flip on him. These are understandable points. Do you not have any questions for him so as to make a more secure decision on the player you just L-2 Voted? Ialsofind that odd.
Third times a charm. Considering you called out Raivann for dodging earlier, I find it doubly interesting that you've not answered this the other 2 times I've asked you. Please do so now.A few posts ago I wrote:There are more than one Scum in this setup, I'd assume. How does your play act as a deterent from an early Scum Hammer?-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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If you're askling a single player, I see less harm in this than otherwise. If you're asking everyone, then it's pretty dangerous, imo. You can ultimately set the Town up for some pretty ugly things down the line, regardless of your intentions. If we all weigh in with our Top 3 Town list, we're handing the Scum an NK shopping list. If there are mostly accepted proTownies on each others' lists, then the Scum have a great opportunity to setup a cherrypicked End Game scenario.MM wrote:Why do you think info is bad for the town?
For an example on that last point, say that pretty much everyone thinks players A and B are proTown. Player A has some suspicion towards B and visa-versa. The Scum will see that and try to play it up, leaving the 2 of them in the game longer so that in the End Game scenario, they are going to go after each other. I know that this isn't going to happen every time, but itdoeshappen.-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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+1Dizzle wrote:I suggest that you don't publicly state that one of the reasons you're voting for him is to build townie cred.
I'm well aware. That's why I said this...to be fair to Monkey, he only asked for one player's top towniesI wrote:If you're askling a single player, I see less harm in this than otherwise. If you're asking everyone, then it's pretty dangerous, imo.-
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d3x Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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- Posts: 3553
- Joined: April 27, 2009
- Location: Burbank, CA
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d3x Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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- Joined: April 27, 2009
- Location: Burbank, CA
Are either Dizzle or cruelty Voting you? Did I miss that? The Vote Count seems to disagree with your sentiment.Raivann wrote:Voting me for giving a town read on someone?-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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@Modand all- Please note the sig. I'll be in Arizona for a friend's wedding from Thursday until the following Monday.-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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Also, Mod- I just noticed that Hero hasn't posted a single time in thread. Can we get a prod/replacement/status update on him, please?
@Fuzzy- Are you waiting for something to happen?-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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Mod- Has hero responded to his prod? Also, jason said he'd be back by yesterday morning. Can we get a prod on him, please?
@all- I'll hopefully be able to post more on pertinent discussion later this afternoon. I'm still confident with my read/Vote on Raivann.-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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#1 priority is to get better, man. Rest up and when you can make it, we'll be here.-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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Mastin is a player notorious for his massive... post length.Is this a typo or am I just unfamiliar with this term?-
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d3x Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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- Posts: 3553
- Joined: April 27, 2009
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This is me, being back from V/LA. I have a few games running atm, so I'm trying to get caught up in all of them at the same time. Thanks for the patience!
~d-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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Briefly? No, I'm about 4 pages behind. I finished up 2 other games yesterday {both Town wins, yay!} and have caught up to a 70+ page game. Due to the walls of posting, I'm getting back into this one a bit slower. Trust me, you'll know when I'm caught up. Also...CM wrote:you caught up in this game?
jason had posted once in this game before posting his V/LA due to emergency. My haste to prod him was to make sure that he wouldn't be lurking through the game as Hero, Sweep, and Fuzzy {to a lesser extent} had been doing.Why were you so quick to ask for a prod on Jason the next day after he was to be back, yet you yourself have posted nothing of merit since your return 2 days ago?-
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d3x Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3553
- Joined: April 27, 2009
- Location: Burbank, CA
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d3x Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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- Joined: April 27, 2009
- Location: Burbank, CA
And as promised, you'd all know when I was caught up.
Ok, first things first.Mod- You're prodding everyone, so I don't have to request that, however, are we replacing Hero? He hasn't posted since... well, since before the 1st Mod said he was going to let you handle replacing him.
Second-Vote:MMThe short version is I don't like the tendency you've shown for doing something and then saying that it's proTown. Let the Town decide what is and isn't proTown. I'm almost at a Null Tell on this because it'd be ridiculous to be that obvious, but that dips a bit too much into WIFOM for my taste. The long version will have to wait for the moment, I'd rather get some discussion going first.
Third- It's great that we got this extension, but we need to make the most out of it. We're still only 5 days away from deadline. Let's kick the tires and light the fires, ladies!-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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Well, I agree with you there. I guess the difference in opinion is that I feel like youI don't think there is anything wrong with pointing out something as being pro-town if someone is attacking you. It is suspicious if you are just doing it out of thin air.aredoing it out of thin air. It's not like someone is listing your moves as Scum Tells and you're arguing that they're clearly proTown. Take the most recent instance. Dizzle asked why you Voted ZEE. Your response was...
I wouldn't have a problem if you had said you were suspicious because he was an obvLurker. That's not what you said, though. You said, 'He's an obvLurker and me pointing it out is obvTown'. {<- obvSummary }I recognized him as lurking, and bringing out lurkers is pro-town.
Ultimately, it reads to me like you're tryingawfullyhard to seem proTown.-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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I'm seriously considering that. If he doesn't post before 5:18 PM MDT on the 9th, he's being replaced, and that's the LATEST.Mod- Not to push you, but he hasn't posted in game a single time. I just checked.-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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Again, I don't believe you were being attacked on that point. In the above example, Dizzle was just asking you why you Voted ZEE. Aside from that, wanting to seem proTown and blatantly calling your own play proTown are 2 very different things.I think it's natural to want to seem pro-town when someone is attacking you.
As to you 'attacking' Raivann, you clearly said that you wanted your Vote on Raivann to be 'on record'. It's never really sat well with me, but it got dropped for want of jucier conversation after a few posts. Your p200 reads exactly like the 'bringing out lurkers is proTown' comment. It doesn't help the fact that you end p200 by saying you'd be ok taking your Vote off if the Town didn't want it there.
It feels like you're trying to appease us and tell us why you're proTown instead of showing us. Oh, and you did say...
{emphasis mine} This wasn'tI already FOS'd him(for avoiding questions, and for calling someone pro-town after only 2 posts, if anything the lack of posting is, and anti-town)lurkingthatlong ago, so I'd be careful saying that he wasn't exactly lurking when it was clearly a reason for you to start in on him.-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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I didn't even realize I had been ninja'd there!
cruelty- Where did your quote {"the quality of most of the players..." } come from? I just combed over your Iso and didn't find it.
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@MM- I take note that you didn't respond to my entire post. In fact, you spent more time on my afterthought than the main thrust. As this can be written off to a mere difference of opinions, I'll let it slide. As this isn't the first time you've done it with me {see p194 for full details}, I'm still bringing it up.
Your point on lurkers is a valid one, however scummy behaviour trumps lurkers in my book every day. I have not come after you for "every Vote", so please do me the courtesy of not lumping me in with a generic 'they/them'. It also comes across as a tad bit AtE-ey. Just sayin'.
You're even saying some of my suspicions are valid, so I'm not seeing how you can say that I'm seeing scummy things that really aren't scummy. If that's not what you're saying, I retract that last sentence.
On to the lurkers, who specifically do you think needs more attention? How would you suggest we get lurking players to not get 'free passes'? Are you suggesting a policy lynch of LynchAllLurkers?-
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d3x Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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d3x Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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I am suggesting that you are doing exactly that, trying too hard to seem Town; so much so that you are physically pointing out whatif I was trying too hard to seem town, I would be suspicious of the same thingshouldgain you Town points.
Well, they say that the Devil's in the details. Ok, I'll play it your way. What is the overall picture that I should be looking at?what's happening is you're trying to isolate things that sound scummy and not looking at the overall picture
Are you suggesting that we don't have a "good lynch candidate"?in the abscence of a good lynch target
Here's what concerns me. In my first game {Newbie 782} we did exactly that. The Town decided to lynch a lurker instead and it helped my partner and I to secure a perfect Scum victory. It was glorious.it's certainly a valid strategy
Gotta cut this short. I'll be back...-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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I know that mass prods are going out, but I'm seriously concerned here. Hero has never posted in game. Skruffs hasn't posted in a week. jason hasn't posted since Sunday. Fuzzy and Dizzle haven't posted since Monday. Now, this is less than 72 hours, so I'm not too concerned about Dizzle, but Fuzzy hasn't really participated as much in this game. That does concern me.
Thoughts, guys?-
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d3x Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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d3x Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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- Joined: April 27, 2009
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So I just read over that last interaction we had MM, and I noticed that you are continuing to selectively answer small points in my posts. Why? This time, I'm not feeling as forgiving.-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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d3x Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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Sorry.
Mod- I think you're missing jason. In case you didn't see that last one due to it not being bolded.-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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Isn't it awesome that you continue to actively lurk your way through this game? Have you nothing to say regarding whatFuzzyman wrote:Isn't it awesome that ZEEnon also left us hanging on a rationale to vote Scien?ishappening?HoS:Fuzzy-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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Tell me Fuzzy, is it normal behaviour for you to lurk this bad in games? Honest question. Could you please link me to some of your games {Town and Scum}? Why do you feel the need to not participate?-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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Can you specifically point to where?MM wrote:Scien seemed intent on slowing it down.
@cruelty- I'm with you. In the least, I think he's being dodgy and he's admitting to it. Further, he's not following through, which is scummy in my eyes.-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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MM- Thank you. Now, why are you blatantly refusing to answer questions?-
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d3x Mafia Scum
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I'm going to go backwards in time, with just me. cruelty can list his if he feels the same.
Lets start easy.In Iso48, I wrote:So I just read over that last interaction we had MM, and I noticed that you are continuing to selectively answer small points in my posts. Why? This time, I'm not feeling as forgiving.
You didn't respond to anything in this post, it was completely ignored.In Iso45, I wrote:
I am suggesting that you are doing exactly that, trying too hard to seem Town; so much so that you are physically pointing out whatif I was trying too hard to seem town, I would be suspicious of the same thingshouldgain you Town points.
Well, they say that the Devil's in the details. Ok, I'll play it your way. What is the overall picture that I should be looking at?what's happening is you're trying to isolate things that sound scummy and not looking at the overall picture
Are you suggesting that we don't have a "good lynch candidate"?in the abscence of a good lynch target
Here's what concerns me. In my first game {Newbie 782} we did exactly that. The Town decided to lynch a lurker instead and it helped my partner and I to secure a perfect Scum victory. It was glorious.it's certainly a valid strategy
Gotta cut this short. I'll be back...
You answered one question of this batch, so I left it off.In Iso43, I wrote:On to the lurkers, who specifically do you think needs more attention? How would you suggest we get lurking players to not get 'free passes'?
This isn't a question, but you didn't respond to it, so I'm listing it. You put something vague down about my suspicions being valid, but 'people' are seeing scummy things where there aren't scummy things. You can't have it both ways, MM. Either my suspicions are valid {you're acting scummy} or people are jumping at shadows {you're not acting scummy}. If the later is true, then you haven't even begun to adress my issues with you.In Iso42, I wrote:Again, I don't believe you were being attacked on that point. In the above example, Dizzle was just asking you why you Voted ZEE. Aside from that, wanting to seem proTown and blatantly calling your own play proTown are 2 very different things.
As to you 'attacking' Raivann, you clearly said that you wanted your Vote on Raivann to be 'on record'. It's never really sat well with me, but it got dropped for want of jucier conversation after a few posts. Your p200 reads exactly like the 'bringing out lurkers is proTown' comment. It doesn't help the fact that you end p200 by saying you'd be ok taking your Vote off if the Town didn't want it there.
It feels like you're trying to appease us and tell us why you're proTown instead of showing us.
Also, as these aren't hidden, cleverly disguised to trip you up, or make you think they're rhetorical, how are you...
...? You were...In p397, you wrote:not refusing to answer anything
...? Bullsh!t. You've already played that card. The point is, you can answer these, but it's about the third time it's happened with me alone.In p359, you wrote:not aware of the question-
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d3x Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3553
- Joined: April 27, 2009
- Location: Burbank, CA
...the hell? 3 pages in 2 days and we have a new player? I'll be rereading and catching up now.
And in case it's not been pointed out by anyone, the deadline's tomorrow.-
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d3x Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3553
- Joined: April 27, 2009
- Location: Burbank, CA
Well, without going to longwinded into it, I feel that MM is still a viable candidate for the lynch {I'm not as proTown leaning on him as some}. I think that your {Amished's} case on Scien is pretty damning. With deadline looming so close, the information on the table, and the fact that Scien's reaction to MM in p485 doesn't sit too well with me {it feels to disingenuous to say that the guy with a wagon just as strong as his is Town}, I'm going toUnVote/Vote:Scien. We need a flip.-
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d3x Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3553
- Joined: April 27, 2009
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You're only L-2 with 12 hours to deadline, I think anyone who came in and lynched you this early would have hell to pay.-
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d3x Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3553
- Joined: April 27, 2009
- Location: Burbank, CA
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d3x Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3553
- Joined: April 27, 2009
- Location: Burbank, CA
@Amished- To answer your direct question to me {re: missing part of a post}, yes, of course I have. The issue I have with MM's 'missing' parts of posts is that he came out strong against Raivann for dodging and then immediately dodged himself. That's hypocracy. Yes, he was talking to a player that we now know was Scum, but with the rest of his play, I'm not sold that it wasn't bussing once the Town had turned against Raivann.
Also, during the discussion between cruelty, MM, and myself, he was responding to small portions of large question heavy posts directed solely at him. That's not 'missing parts of posts' it's closer to strawmanning. I had to ask these questions two and sometimes 3 times before he would finally answer them. That's why I was making a big deal of it.
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@CM- Point being, still a lot of time.
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@All- The End of D1 has too many people sitting on the sidelines for my taste. Just saying.-
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d3x Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 3553
- Joined: April 27, 2009
- Location: Burbank, CA