Mini 1122: Mafia.Exe Game Over

[GreyICE]

Hey there everyone,
GreyICE, Why are you Hiraki's archenemy?
VOTE: [Redacted]

I have six fingers on my right hand.

What can I say, I'm lucky that way. Oh well.

Vote: No Lynch

Lets be friends!

[GreyICE]

UNVOTE:
this game is gonna be easy, obv scum=bgg1996, GreyICE, DeathRowKitty

I'll (re)-place my vote in about 12-14 hours from now

Hai guyz, scumz is da guy who voted No Lynch, da guy on LA, and da guy who hasn't confirmed and iz probs flakin. BB in 12 to see if which is the easiest target.

Unvote

Vote: Xine

[GreyICE]

Oh wait, bgg has that one post. He just has ~120 posts on site overall and isn't bolded in the confirmed list. Yeah, stand by the above.

[GreyICE]

The irony of Xine being female isn't lost on me right now.

[GreyICE]

Given that scum has been caught in the first two pages of RVS before, yeah. Every single thing that happens is meaningful.

[GreyICE]

Given that scum has been caught in the first two pages of RVS before, yeah. Every single thing that happens is meaningful.

You realise that one of the three scum you 'caught' was

yourself?

I've read this like three times, and each time it becomes a tad more bizarre. What did you think you were saying when you posted this?

[GreyICE]

Nathaniel's posts are bringing tear's to everyone's eyes. I don't even know what the garbage he calls an ISO is supposed to be.

@Neruz, that explanation made sense, and made me laugh. Thanks.

Xine's posts aren't really helping me much. I do quite like where my vote is. That was a bit too much buddying for me in the last post, and I get the impression she's ignoring me for what she thinks are reasons. Jig's up, mlove, do tell.

P.S. Llamarble, please don't base everything on meta. Go browse through my current games linked on my Wiki, if you care to I think it's missing a few, but there's most there.

[GreyICE]

Page. Page 3, Neruz.

[GreyICE]

Unvote

Vote: bgg

Bad vote was really, really bad.

[GreyICE]

Llamarble, that is a VERY different statement then the one you made before. Your prior statement was based on PEOPLE you'd played with before. Your current one, and one I agree with, is about prior events. Currently feeling Neruz and Bgg, but it's far too early to tell.

I'm holding Neruz almost entirely unlikely to be scum, and am curious as to why you think that he is.

[GreyICE]

Grey, would you mind explaining

why

that vote was "really, really bad"?
Don't you stand behind your scumread on Xine anymore?

Sure. It put her at L-2 with no reasoning, no reason for voting, and no real logic behind it. Like "oh, everyone is voting for Xine, let me do that too." Oh and then he wins like a thousand other prizes too immediately after that.

[GreyICE]

fair enough.
do you still think Xine is scum? if yes, do/did you think bgg was bussing?
did your opinion about bgg change after post 89 and 91?

I don't think bgg fully thought his actions through. I think he wanted to be on a wagon like everyone else and just jumped on. Frankly, I don't think it matters if it was a town wagon or a scum wagon, he seems desperately worried about fitting in. Desperately, desperately worried. That doesn't scream town to me.

#91 is terrible. You know why it's frequently in the town's best interest to lynch claimed vanilla townies, especially on day 1, and to hard claim that way under what can only be described as 'pressure voting' is a complete panic attack. I wanted an explanation for the vote, I cannot believe that the explanation was to CLAIM VANILLA TOWNIE before L-2 or L-1. It's friggin unbelievably bad, and says 'newbie scum panic' more than it says 'believably town' to me.

The only things you should claim early is miller (always) and sometimes Paranoid Gun Owner (I guess, wouldn't mind some opinions on that one).

[GreyICE]

I'm liking bgg for a lynch. Not only is claiming VT D1 unproductive for town, it also means that if we DON'T lynch him, mafia likely will, since if he's town, his death would give us nothing to go on. Either way, for the moment, his lynch is the only one that I can say with any certainty I think will provide useful information for town.

Huh? Why would mafia NK him (I assume you meant that, not lynch)? The mafia are never going to TOUCH a claimed VT while there are still power roles out there. It's one of the reasons that this site developed a meta of lynching claimed VTs - no one ever again wonders why they wouldn't be NKed, and they can coast to LyLo sooooo easily.

Do you think mafia would try to push a lynch on a claimed VT?

[GreyICE]

I don't know if they would push a lynch on a claimed VT, I was just of the opinion that if we lynch someone else and he turns up dead in the morning, his death hasn't really taught us anything, and ideally we should be able to learn SOMETHING from NKs.

Nah. They'd never ever night kill him. Seriously, you go hunting power roles as scum, not VTs. Every outed VT is one less shield a power role has, AND it gives scum a claim that lets them live safely unquestioned to endgame.

It's a terrible anti-town thing to do, and if he's scum it ensures that if we give him a pass, this question will pop up again and again and again unless he gets cop cleared or some shit (at which point hey, he just COST US a power role). If he's town the question will jump up again and again and again.

Day 1 especially, it's reasonably solid to lynch all claimed VTs unless there's a bloody good reason.

[GreyICE]

I'm agreeing that I want to lynch him. I'm disagreeing with your reasoning.

Also, his continued insistence that we somehow psychically just know he's not mafia annoys me.

[GreyICE]

I've never seen scum fold on Day 1 from anything less than a heated wagon on their face.

The purpose of the questions is to find cracks in the person's responses, scummy things you can point at and build a nice shiny case to convince people like me that you're right.

I'll be glad to vote Nath, if you can convince me he's scum.

I've watched scum fold day 1 from the suggestion that there might be a day cop. Panic can set in quite quickly.

And cases are frequently bullshit. You're as likely to catch scum from one post as you are from a big shiny case.

[GreyICE]

Neruz is at least offering helpful speculation and posting. Post #129 was really useful.

I've always been of the opinion that you should never lynch someone who is useful and scumhunting day 1 unless they massively scumslip or something. It's always nice to lynch someone whose scummy and mostly posted useless garbage, because if you do hit a townie at least you don't lose much.

I am serious about that, btw. And bgg is still my vote.

By the way, I'd like some reads or something out of you. Quote walls =/= content

[GreyICE]

PS, tell your logic that a long day one makes more info for endgame

A long day 1 is great for endgame stuff, but it doesn't always happen.

The thing is, sometimes a long day 1 is intercepted by something that makes you believe 1 player is just scum. And once the consensus is that a player is obvscum and they are scum, the day gets weird. Most townies lose the motivation to stick around and discuss who scum #2 is, other scum bus and lurk, and everything gets ridiculous.

The only thing better than a long day 1 is starting day 2 at 9:2 or 7:2:1 with a chance for your PRs to do their thing and scum to screw up and target other scum or someone they really shouldn't target or something.

[GreyICE]

Nathanael is getting a good amount of attention, I am finding myself a bit hung up on the "back into RVS" that he pulled early in the game, his explanation does not jive with me, because IMO a vote for "No Lynch" is not

slightly

scummy.
This could be a connection between him and GreyICE.

Wow, you'd really dislike how I started 1117 then

[GreyICE]

Is it still too early to use meta? If it's not too early, I'm calling GreyICE scum right now. If it is too early....well, I can always wait a couple of pages.

Well I wouldn't mind if you shared, sure. What's the juicy tidbit of meta awesomeness that proves that I'm scum?

[GreyICE]

If someone does a thread check, they'll find me in several ongoing games, one in the mini theme forum, two in the mini normal forum that are ongoing.

Tell me about that again, Xine?

[GreyICE]

Well I wouldn't mind if you shared, sure. What's the juicy tidbit of meta awesomeness that proves that I'm scum?

Uhhh...the fact that you're playing differently than you did in the game I've seen you in as town and in the game I just did a brief skim of your iso from in which you were also town?

Huh, I have no idea what game I was in with you. If it's ongoing just pop a number or something.

[GreyICE]

I never said I was in a game with you :s

I read Mini 1105 though (first ever 13p mini normal) and did a quick iso of you in Mini 1117 (ongoing).

Heh, well then you know how weird games can open if you read 1117. I'd just like to note that 1105 and my newbie game I wasn't at all effective at catching scum and have changed my play somewhat in response (to be fair, I did NOT anticipate Daytalk, a blind spot I am trying to work past). This site metas and plays differently. And 1117, well, you're right I was town, but there is a caveat there that impacted my scumhunting game. Not discussing an ongoing game though.

[GreyICE]

Nathaneal, question. Answer this, and I might have a reason to agree with you.

There are 3 players in the game. You are one of them, bgg another. We have lynched 2 scum, one of whom aggressively came after bgg, and one of whom ignored him as a newbie. The other player is scummy, but not terribly so. bgg has played at about this level the entire game. Do you lynch bgg?

[GreyICE]

Also, if I'm not mistaken, this will be the first time I've actually played as a vanilla townie. (

In my more inexperienced games, all of the roles had an ability

)
Good luck using meta on me.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=11741

Alive
bgg1996 - Mafia Roleblocker - Survives

Dead
Kard8p3 - Vanilla Townie - Lynched Day 1
Meji Fan FoShizzle (SE) - Vanilla Townie - Killed Night 1
Kichirou - Mafia Goon - Lynched Day 2
crazypianist1116 - Vanilla Townie - Killed Night 2
dothefandango - Vanilla Townie - Lynched Day 3
CancerBottle - Vanilla Townie - Killed Night 3
Snow White FatedLunar - Vanilla Townie - Endgamed
ChannelDelibird (IC) - Vanilla Townie - Endgamed

While I do believe that "Is able to post and vote" is an ability, this is not what I would call entirely accurate.

Figured I'd look up your one game to get reads... and didn't even get past the player list

[GreyICE]

If someone does a thread check, they'll find me in several ongoing games, one in the mini theme forum, two in the mini normal forum that are ongoing.

Tell me about that again, Xine?

ok, I checked, you seem to be a good enough player and fun to be in a game with, but if you were trying to make some kind of point, I missed it.
what do you mean, tell you about that again? scroll back up and re-read my post.

on SC, she seems rather eager to follow other people's leads, and sheep votes

my vote is staying put, I still think it's in the best spot.

I like to stick people outside their comfort zone on day 1. It makes for interesting reactions. RVS is way too predictable nowadays.

[GreyICE]

People who play aggressively are typically scum... okay. I'm... unsure as to what to say to that.

My experience is scum usually lurk and are cautious.

[GreyICE]

People who play aggressively are typically scum... okay. I'm... unsure as to what to say to that.

My experience is scum usually lurk and are cautious.

No, people who push other players really hard on day 1 in an attempt to make them uncomfortable are,

in my experience

, scum. Typically i suspect this is because they are trying to make a town player slip up and give them some leverage.

There is no 'typical' scum play, you see all kinds, but i have very rarely witnessed a highly aggressive player on d1 being town. This may well be because of a skewed sample space, i'm not sure. I just thought it was something to think about.

Lets see, off the top of my head:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15946

xRECKONERx - Star Sapphire, Mason Recruiter
Fate - Tomar-Re, Gunsmith
Andrius (Cult-recruited night 5, town before then)

So... yeah. I think you're probably just being really bad and not really scummy and bad, but I could be mistaken. I have trouble reading statements that are just complete bullshit.

[GreyICE]

[Redacted]: Lurkers are a pet peeve of mine. It seems like every game i decide to -not- poke the lurkers somewhat frequently, they turn out to be scum coasting to victory.

Maybe you're too busy lynching townies for scumhunting?

[GreyICE]

So tell me GreyICE; how would 'my experience' contain a game i was not in?

I'm pointing out the observation was totally ridiculous.

And, since I'm bored and tired of this nonsense, you were in these two games, yes?

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... lect=11658
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=15547

You'd call Nacho's play defensive in the first one?

Now compare it to the second, and compare the number of passive-aggressive attacks and fence sits he pulls in the second.

What are you even basing this meta on? If you say Parkie and Andrew, I'm just going to laugh.

[GreyICE]

What happens if the week goes on without a majority?
Do we not lynch anybody, or just kill me?

We don't lynch anyone.

[GreyICE]

Okay, we've left this alone long enough. The wagon is tentative, the reasoning is pretty shaky, and there's absolutely no counterwagon materializing. That means this is most likely not a scum wagon at all. I can't see any reason not to try and materialize a new wagon here, bussing a buddy on day 1 on this level of evidence is ridiculously bad scumplay.

Unvote

bgg1996 (5): GreyICE, Xine, Surprise_Carcinogen, Neruz, Hiraki,

At least one of these votes is scum. Most likely two, and I doubt the entire scumteam is onboard.

So, who is the scum? See next post.

[GreyICE]

Neruz: Gonna have to go with the lowest probability. Helpful advice on things like PGO, general openness, and lots of reasoning and content filled posts. If he's scum, he's DAMN GOOD. We have points of disagreement, but no, town.

SC: Very well could be the scum on the wagon. However, I'm inclined to think town. Just seems too... honest, somehow.

Hiraki: Seems very willing to go along with thing, his quote about me being less aggressive was interesting when he's on a wagon that me and Llamarble started.

Xine: Oh dear god, Xine. You win:

Neruz is defiantly putting himself on the line to defend bgg. this indicates to me that they are not scum together. GreyIce is very defensive, almost jumpy? I reiterate my willingness to hammer, should the vote swing that way.

Lets go back to that vote count for a second:

bgg1996 (5): GreyICE, Xine, Surprise_Carcinogen, Neruz, Hiraki,

So her vote is busy sitting on a wagon that she think is being pushed by SCUM? That's solid town play!

Vote: Xine

Ya don't leave your vote on a wagon when you think it's being pushed by scum. Oops.

[GreyICE]

ITT, GreyICE ignores post 232.

She's tired? Oh come on. She's leaving her vote on a wagon that she thinks is being lead by scum?

She is tired, because she slipped that badly. If you think scum's leading the wagon, you don't hop on. On the other hand, if you want to chain mislynches...

[GreyICE]

And, by the way Neruz, don't confuse passive-aggressive with aggressive. Passive-aggressive is where you bait people into attacks by generally making actions that are not overtly aggressive, but incite aggression. That's a scum tell, because it is a good way to damage logical processes by creating emotional appeals that generally screw up wagons. General passive aggressive posting is very, very scummy.

To wit:

What the bloody hell is this nonsense, your here posting on a daily basis but your not going to answer questions until the 14th? Either bugger off for your V/LA or play the game, waiting to see how the game develops before answering questions seems a game plan that consists of combines the worst of coasting and active lurking.

There are 2 bold claims in your first sentence, both of which are blatantly false. If you're confident enough in them to accuse me of them in that tone but not useful enough to actually check if they're correct (especially since checking one of them would have required no more than fully reading the post you were quoting), I plan on ignoring everything you say for the rest of the game. Stop PMSing and actually play.

Redacted was aggressive, DRK was passive aggressive. Called on the lurking, the general response has been to sit around and lob dirt bombs at people.

The best part? Her vote is on Redacted for all of today while calling everyone scum. But she NEVER EVEN QUESTIONS HIM AGAIN. It's like she's given up on catching scum, and given up on convincing anyone she's caught scum. Why hasn't she moved the vote or done anything with it? Doesn't want to put another scum vote on the bgg wagon until it gets close to deadline.

Given that last bit, she's most likely the scumbuddy of Xine-scum.

[GreyICE]

Where did she say that she thought either were spies. She said he and me couldn't both be spies because he was protecting me too much (she obviously meant Nathanael, but couldn't remember his name. They both start with 'N' happens to me all the time). She did say you were defensive and jumpy, though.

She's voting for you, so she thinks you're scum and she wants you dead.

I'm leading the wagon on you.

bgg1996 (5): GreyICE, Xine, Surprise_Carcinogen, Neruz, Hiraki,

She thinks I'm probably scum, and is totally willing to kill me.

GreyIce is very defensive, almost jumpy? I reiterate my willingness to hammer, should the vote swing that way.

So either she thinks you're scum, and she thinks the person who is leading your wagon is scum... or she knows you'll flip town, and is setting up another mislynch for tomorrow.

[GreyICE]

OR, she believes I'm scum, but also finds you moderately suspiscious, and will vote you if either people decide (rightfully) that I'm town, or I'm lynched and flip town (which I will).
Are you stuck on Xine being scum? Are you a day cop or something similiar?

/facepalm

Or we can ignore this line of reasoning, and stop dancing about you flipping town. Oh, you'll flip this, oh you'll flip that.

If you think scum is leading the wagon, you better have a damn good reason to be on it. Xine doesn't. That? That's scummy as hell.

You just seem to have gotten the jester PM, so we'll move past that and I'll ignore the horrible things wrong with this post.

[GreyICE]

DRK, why not add something useful to the thread. You don't seem to think bgg is scum. Wagons on town almost NEVER hit L-2 without scum support unless the townie has done something truly amazing.

bgg1996 (5): GreyICE, Xine, Surprise_Carcinogen, Neruz, Hiraki,

There's the wagon. Find scum, make a case, do something useful with your vote. You've done nothing but try and throw dirt around, it's scummy as shit and general poor play to boot.

[GreyICE]

Yeah. Seriously, are you this stupid when you're town?

[GreyICE]

ITT we learn that GreyICE thinks I have never heard of bussing. did you forget that I have been calling him scum, with you, since the beginning of the game?

No, actually I didn't.

Somehow you have the same bullshit reads that you did on page one of this thread.

You've gone NOWHERE since then? This entire thread, and those reads haven't changed in the least? Argh.

[GreyICE]

a) why do you think I think you are scum? Yes, this is a serious question I'd like you to answer.

You don't. You think you can get a wagon going on me and lynch me.

b) I'd still like you to provide with the links to those questions I didn't answer you claim in post 160.

I'm not actually sure, i just did a quick ISO and all it revealed is that you havn't been posting much at all, it's been too long since i made that post. I suspect i was talking about the thing with you and Hiraki, as you basically spent most of your early interaction with him dodging his posts.

c) define "free lynch".

A free lynch is any day where lynching a town player does not lose the game for the town. Hence 'free'.

d) was there ever a moment you thought it could be a reasonable possibility that bgg had in fact the claimed "proof of innocence"?

I didn't know. I knew that he had claimed townie, but i left the possibility open to that being a fakeclaim to mask a power role. He claimed that he would have proof of his innocence the following day, and as there were other scummy players around i felt there was no reason to lynch him until he provided this proof. He later confirmed his townie claim and stated that because of that, he could not have proof of innocent, which removed my reason to not lynch him.

So to answer your question, i didn't know. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Neruz on why people being aggressive D1 are scum:

No, people who push other players really hard on day 1 in an attempt to make them uncomfortable are,

in my experience

, scum. Typically i suspect this is because they are trying to make a town player slip up and give them some leverage.

You're a retard, i've already gone over this. If you cannot be bothered to read people's posts then don't fucking play mafia.

Neruz on why he left the BGG and Nath wagons as they picked up speed even though he had been expressing suspcion of them.

Lurkers are a pet peeve of mine. It seems like every game i decide to -not- poke the lurkers somewhat frequently, they turn out to be scum coasting to victory.

Hurray for cognitive dissonance!

If this was real life Mafia i would actually punch you for being pants-on-head retarded right now.

cognitive dissonance

–noun Psychology .
anxiety that results from simultaneously holding contradictory or otherwise incompatible attitudes, beliefs, or the like, as when one likes a person but disapproves strongly of one of his or her habits.

A:

Nothing you quoted in those posts is contradictory or incompatible.

B:

So you've learned how to read minds now have you?

[Redacted] re-hashing old arguments and tacking on fancy words to make them suddenly look legit noted. Hello scumtell.

How is this distancing myself? Seriously? This is me making a personal observation, a personal observation

that i myself admit is probably not accurate or reliable.

Did you fucking miss the part where i said,

right fucking there in the post you quoted

, that my pool of evidence was not large enough to draw a proper conclusion.

No, you only get that if you're scum looking for an easy lynch.

In future i will remember that i am not ever allowed to forget things or become predjudiced against them. I will be an emotionless robot who never makes mistakes. Beep beep boop you're a fucking retard beep.

So wait, you had enough time to write all that about me, but not enough time to write something about DRK? Wow, i see you have a really convincing pile of bullshit here.

If bgg wasn't being even more retarded than you, i would be voting you right now.

HoS: [Redacted]

for obvious and blatant bullshittery.

Holy shit. This is coming from the guy who thinks acting aggressive on day 1 is a scumtell?

Unvote

Vote: Neruz

If it was a player who backed emotional play, I could at least understand it, but this is like Spock suddenly flying into a rage and trying to strangle someone.

Scummiest fucking thing in the thread, and I'm including bgg.

[GreyICE]

This was my favorite bit in that wall:

You're a retard, i've already gone over this. If you cannot be bothered to read people's posts then don't fucking play mafia.

In future i will remember that i am not ever allowed to forget things or become predjudiced against them. I will be an emotionless robot who never makes mistakes. Beep beep boop you're a fucking retard beep.

Neruz vs. [Redacted], I'm finding [Redacted] more persuasive.

I notice your vote isn't following your thoughts. Care to explain?

[GreyICE]

still watching, still pondering, your reaction is interesting too.

Uh huh. I find "still pondering" is a good way for scum to look like they're thinking and be doing jack shit.

Try again?

[GreyICE]

You would like me to change my play style to suit your opinions? No, I'm me, I play like I play.
you seem very emotional, especially when you are being scrutinized. bgg got pretty emotional at L-2, and now Neruz is getting emotional under scrutiny as well, then, you vote Neruz for...being emotional. Am I alone in finding this interesting?

First, I'd like you to give us a little more about what you're thinking. With two bandwagons moving at the moment, it feels a tad non-committal not to comment. This is the best information we're going to get for a while. To sit it out doesn't do much for the town.

Now as to my Neruz vote, it's not because he's acting emotional. If he was the sort of player (Fate, whoever) who liked to fly into rages and stuff, yeah, that would be fairly typical. Okay, Fate has more style, but you know what I'm saying. Neruz, this entire game, has been eminently rational... until he's attacked. Then he starts screaming at his attacker and calling him names? Insulting his intelligence and belittling the case?

It just seems very very irrational to me. Redacted's case was reasonable, and Neruz's response was... amazing. It's not a rational reaction. But what if the case is correct, and Neruz is scum? Then the rational town thing to do is for him to find himself to be scum. He has to act irrational to show that he's not scum. Which is... exactly what he did.

[GreyICE]

Please don't ask me to discuss an ongoing game too much, I dun like modkill.

That being said, your play in that was very aggressive and forthright. Which makes me truly interested in why aggressive play is anti-town all of a sudden.

[GreyICE]

lol, there's absolutely no reason on earth that nonsense should convince me. It's so bad, given the nacho logic. And to be frank, it does. BLAH. I hate it when townies make no fucking sense, yet convince me they're town. Whhhhyyyyyyyy must you fuckers be so random?

FYI: When people are in their comfort zones for a game, they are happy and posting consistently. When they're outside their comfort zone, they're posting more honestly. Like you just did.

Okay, I still hate the bgg wagon. It just has gone too long without a counterwagon or counter push from anyone. I'm tempted by the flip because if he's scum the scum are most likely hardcore bussing, and if he's town, the scum are most likely lurking, but I'm not lynching for a flip yet.

Unvote

Vote: Xine

MYSTERIOUS CRAP DON'T HELP THINGS SCREW PLAYSTYLE I WANT ANSWERS.

[GreyICE]

The one with like 3 votes on it? Unless the last vote count is badly off, that's just day 1 noise.

[GreyICE]

Also, frankly, I stand by my analysis. One of the votes on the bgg wagon was scum. And I really can't think of anything scummier than "Well I'll vote for this person and say that the person who started the wagon is most likely scum too!"

[GreyICE]

bgg only has 4 votes, i had the same until you pulled off. If there isn't a wagon on me, then there isn't a wagon on bgg. You don't get to have it both ways.

Was five until I took my vote off him. You had 3 until I voted? LOL. Yeah, not the same.

I feel Xine's behavior is completely scummy, and now that I know the 'character' was what you were doing at the start of this thread, it makes more sense to me. Frankly, I like the new Neruz more, although you could tone it down with the 'retard' shit.

[GreyICE]

In other words, yes I am stupid, but you still have to answer my stupid questions.

No, i don't. Hiraki has already pointed out how stupid you're being, if you like i can do the same; you're stupid, your 'question' is stupid. I have answered why i voted you and why i believe you to be scum already, in fact i'm fairly sure i've answered that stupid question twice now.

I asked two questions. This makes it seem like you did not read my post completely. Please read it again. Now have something to eat. You are clearly way too angry to post. If you are too angry, then your posts will not help

town

very much, and instead of conveying information that will help the

town

catch, and kill scum, you are making the town angry at you, which, if you are indeed

town

, make us lose another

townie

. Since the people who are reading this seem to be very dense, let me say that this is under the assumption that he is

town

BECAUSE this is what he would want to do if he was

town

. If he doesn't, he is not acting in the interest of the

town

.

Also, if questions are stupid, that probably only means that the person asking them is stupid. Stupid people aren't any more likely to be mafia than smart ones, and while it may make it more likely that they are scum, it is not a good idea to suspect somebody based purely on how

"

f*cking retarded

"

they are being.

Mafia typically hide behind stupid questions because they have to make up their scumhunting. Mafia cannot actually scumhunt because they are the scum, therefore they have to

create

scumtells, which typically comes across as stupid and\or retarded questions, often re-hashing points that were already made and carefully laundering quotes so as to make their fabricated case look convincing.

Did I ever re-hash points that were already made?
Did I ever launder a quote?

I'm not asking scummy questions that seem stupid, I'm asking questions.

I'm not the most experienced player. I didn't see much, if any particularly scummy posts.

I have to find the scum, and vote for them. Otherwise, they win.

I was looking for anything that might seem suspicious. What I want to do is to win it for the town. What you want to do is lynch the people who annoy you too much with questions. Questions help us determine who is scum and who is town. By not answering my questions you are acting in the exact opposite way in which a

townie

should act. You are doing things that may may lose the game for the

town.

You are acting in the preference of the mafia scum. Read over the questions, and answer them in detail.

I'm sick of your bullshit and i'm sick of [Redacted]'s bullshit. You clearly have no clue what the hell you're doing; to call you a newbie is an insult to newbies everywhere. Why you're playing this game and not learning how to play mafia properly in the newbie games i don't even know, but i suspect it may be because you are actually braindead and\or fucking with us. I don't know which and i don't care.

Does that make me any more likely to be scum?
Does that make it okay to lynch me?
Do you have any other significant reason other than an over-exaggerated poorly-quoted eleven-word sentence?
Are you even going to answer these questions?
Did you even read this post!?!

At this point i would actually lynch you even if i had incontrovertible proof that you were town, just so i don't have to read another one of your mind-numbingly stupid posts.

I sincerely hope that you are kidding. Please, let you be kidding. Please tell me you are kidding.

GreyICE, you might want to make your bandwagoning slightly less blatant. I know my explosion makes me look like an easy lynch right now, but it's going to look real shitty for you when i flip town, because that vote right there is so opportunistic it hurts.

I would scream at you for that bullshit about thinking aggression on day 1 is a scumtell, but it's clear at this point you've already decided what i said for me, and i'm all screamed out, so i'll just make it short and sweet.

It is not simply because you had an emotional breakdown, of sorts.
The reason is because, not that I necessarily do or do not agree with it, because you first said aggressive play was a scumtell, then flew into a rage and strangled somebody.

Fuck you, scum.

I do hope that you don't curse:
According to their posts, about half of the people here, including you, are still in grade school.

Please respond to any and all questions directed at you, or else necessary actions will be taken. If you are

town

, then you should have no trouble proving your innocence. The town should not lose a

townie

because you were too angry to respond to a few questions.

ANYONE ELSE GET THE FEELING THIS IS TRYING A BIT TOO HARD?

I STILL THINK MY VOTE IS ON SCUM. DECISIONS, DECISIONS.

WAIT. XINE SCUM IS NEAR-CERTAIN, THIS COULD JUST BE

REALLY

BAD. NOPE, NOT MOVING.

[GreyICE]

I don't know about that, Neruz has declared willingness to lynch someone he believes to be town to remove an annoying player. I thought the plan was to lynch scum, wasn't that your plan, Neruz? I've seen enough to have reached a decision
VOTE: Neruz

Scum scum scum scum scum

This is such a scum post.

[GreyICE]

Hiraki, I just voted in response to #294, I really don't understand your question. If you would like me to answer it, (if I haven't already) please rephrase it for me
GreyICE, why is that a scum post, other then that your pissed that I figured out from page one that you are scum, and you are stuck on OMGUS?

Transparently horrible reason for voting, since we've ALL had townies we wanted to kill at some time or another, bad excuse to hop on a bandwagon, laaaaammmeee posting overall, yeah. It's like run up a pirate flag and put on a fireworks show while you're at it.

[GreyICE]

Okay, catching up time. First thing that really catches my eye is this post because of the possible connection between Neruz and Nathanael. To me, this post doesn't seem like bussing/distancing for some reason. It's mostly because of part a of his questioning of Neruz. If I were questioning a buddy, "why do you think I think you're scum?" is pretty much something I'd avoid at all costs, simply because my reaction to seeing that if I were on the receiving end of it would be "because it says so in my role PM, idiot" or something to that effect. Could be overthinking it, I suppose, but we'll see how it turns out.

bgg's explanations are getting dangerously far into WIFOMy metascum territory, but I'm still really not getting a scum feel off of them. This is where it would be nice to see a more recent game he played as scum, but he's refused to provide links from recent games, so I don't know.

@bgg
How would you describe your scum meta (beyond "try to look like I'm town")?

I still disagree with a BGG lynch atm and will be making a post about DRK on Monday

You sure know how to make a guy feel special

I don't like the line of attack Hiraki's been following on bgg (see here for an example). It kind of feels like he's prodding bgg with a sharp stick and then going "ZOMG U SAID "OUCH" LOLSCUM"

Minor Neruz explosion in thread? check. Experience tells me Neruz-splosion isn't a scum tell and I don't find [Redacted]'s case hugely convincing, so meh. *sits on Neruz's fence*

I would like to see more out of Llamarble. My gut doesn't like him, but his posts aren't giving a huge amount to go on right now. I also want to look a bit more into Hiraki. For some rason, despite his having a reasonable number of posts, he's managed to fly almost completely under my radar.

*cough*

Not to push this wagon too hard (lies, I love pushing wagons), but has Xine made a post yet this game that makes you go "oh... town!"

[GreyICE]

You might have a point, but Xine goes on to say this:

I thought the plan was to lynch scum, wasn't that your plan, Neruz?

Which implies that i am currently going against that plan and voting someone i believe to be town just to remove an annoying player.

Which i am not.

What you're seeing here bgg is called

implication

, it's an extremely common and powerful scum tool and if you are town then you appear to have fallen right for it.

He's not town.

Neither is Xine.

But I'm so so much more certain about the last statement then the first. Come on and help us lynch scum today.

[GreyICE]

I honestly can't tell with bgg anymore. I'm finding it almost impossible to believe that he isn't an alt account that is just trolling this entire thread as there is a point where i am just no longer able to suspend my disbelief; we went past that point a short while back.

That post by Xine though, that i am familiar with. I've seen that kind of post many times before and it is always an extremely powerful scumtell: Look for the people who make up excuses to hop on the wagon, because there are your scum.

Come on. Bgg is a jester. It doesn't matter what color his role PM came in, that's his role and he's playing it to the hilt.

[GreyICE]

I should have time for a less cursory inspection tomorrow, I hope.

I don't disagree with this wagon, but I've hardly read anyone else properly so I don't want a hammer before I've really analyzed 2/3 of the players.

I still have to read more players though.

I am leaning more toward town on GreyIce and more toward scum on Xine now though. I am also a bit tired to explain that, which I realize is pretty much a total reversal of some of the few reads I've given. I'll make up for it tomorrow. Good night.

Okay, today I'll make a complete set of reads & explanations.

Okay, time for promised catch-up.

IS IT SAD THAT I THINK YOU'RE TOWN BECAUSE I KNOW FOR A FACT YOUR SCUMPLAY IS BETTER THAN THIS?

[GreyICE]

Is this a typical first day?

Uh... define typical.

[GreyICE]

being or serving as a representative example of a particular type; characteristic

I guess I meant more what sort of a range are you accepting for typical? Like, most day 1s I've been in go dramatically differently depending on many things. This is a less active one than some. But I mean it's so dependent on personalities. Throw Fate into one, and things get weird in an awful whole hurry.

@Llamarble: I do understand, but you were running like 70% on 'will catch up soon' content in existing posts. I love ya man, but there's a limit.

[GreyICE]

Why, because Neruz has come through so hard for us that he's now obvtown town man of the town team?

Seriously, the advice on roles was cool and all, and I liked the calm demeanor, but this Neruz is a beast apart. Really good scumhunter, and if I was the scumteam I'd be scared. I think bgg is an obsession holding him back (seriously, bgg is a lot more null to me than scum right now) but there's some damn good reads to be had.

The Neruz wagon is now so silly I think there's more townies on it than scum, scum are probably jumping ship.

[GreyICE]

What? He's town.

Here's my read list so far:

Town
Me (obv)
Neruz (Best town here, I think he's dead on)

Townish
Hiraki - some blah play, but overall town
DRK - although confusing
Llamarble (although apparently not following us)

Null
bgg - I can't read his behavior anymore, I'm just not sure he's scum
Greedling - who knows
Ant
Redacted

Scummy
Xine - obv
MME - leaning towards scum
Surprised_Carcinogen - probably scum with Xine.
Nathaniel - he's just scummy here to me

[GreyICE]

Dunno about MME or SC, but i'm pretty sure there's at least one scum in Xine, Redacted, GreyICE and Nathaniel. bgg comes off as scum in one post, and town in the next so i'm not sure what to do with him anymore.

Ugh, vigbait if I ever saw it.

[GreyICE]

Hiraki: Basic reading comprehension skills increase the odds of us taking you seriously.

Everything else you wrote was serious nonsense.

[GreyICE]

<3

[GreyICE]

Not really Naruz, I get it right every time.

[GreyICE]

@GreyIce
Almost from the first few pages you have said:

I'm holding Neruz almost entirely unlikely to be scum

and I believe in your most recent list you have said:

Neruz (Best town here, I think he's dead on)

Can you refresh me on why you have been so certain, through the entire day, that Neruz is not only town, but the best town?

Well lessee. Xine's been reduced to lurking and bgg has bgged the thread to the point where I think if our entire town had to name a consensus deadline lynch his neck would be in the noose, at Neruz's prodding. If either of them flip scum, he's basically confirmed town.

So yeah. Don't see why you'd question this much.

[GreyICE]

He reads town to me. I honestly did post a read list, and it's my best shot at reads.

I'm no psychic, I've pushed Neruz to see where he stands, I've pushed other people, Neruz stands town. I can't think why he'd be otherwise. This wagon on him seems like total scum garbage to me.

[GreyICE]

Two votes away from where it needs to be?

[GreyICE]

Wasn't this damn wagon at L-2?

Who are the failure kittens who are bailing here?

[GreyICE]

I want to lynch BGG instead, though I'll be back if necessary. I think the Neruz wagon looks ultra scumdriven.

I dunno, I can't see bgg alive in LyLo as a good thing for the town in any respect, although I'd be tempted to see if we have a vigilante by checking to see if his body develops bullets (he is just such vigbait).

[GreyICE]

Holy shit!

Someone knows where my avatar is from!

<3

[GreyICE]

Not getting a real strong scum read out of you. Or much of any scumread. Scum motives day 1 usually aren't start at town wagon, it's find the nearest terribad wagon and sheep it, especially when things are going wrong for them.

[GreyICE]

You know what, i'm not going to rise to the bait this time. This time i am goint to calmly ignore you completely.

*claps*

[GreyICE]

Okay, what happened in the last two pages? Did someone hand out acid tabs and forget to mail me my sampler?

[GreyICE]

Lurking is scummy.

It's not proof that someone is scum, but it's scummy, scummy, scummy.

[GreyICE]

Nathanael is a stupid lynch in general, 30 seconds, 1 breather. Stop with this town on town violence, kids.

[GreyICE]

Nathanael is playing with the assumption that he is town built into every action he takes. That is hard to fake. We'll get better reads on him later in the game when he has concrete information to work with. Tired of mislynching on day 1 because town got bored with the lurker LURKING.

[GreyICE]

I'm not seeing that at all; i'm seeing someone who refuses to state a case on the person he is voting, instead trying to look 'smart' by providing little tidbits and asking questions as if he's pretending to be some sort of intelligent mentor figure leading his protege to the correct answer and then wussing out and claiming it's all uncertain and he's still trying to find out who the scum is when called on it.

"I think you're scum, now you tell me why i think that." Is really rediculous and i'm actually annoyed at myself that i missed that earlier and just put it down to Nathanael trying to be clever, i was half right; it -is- clever, but it's clever scum, not clever town.

Don't make me make a case why he's town, you'll annoy me and I hate making cases someone is town. I didn't have to make one for Mafuyu, don't make me break my streak. 592 is town.

Bgg is starting to look town, which is actually scaring me.

[GreyICE]

Okay, fine, you get five second version rather than wall because I feel lazy, ask me to expand if you don't like it.

Nathanael is town. Start with that assumption.
Why does he need to hand out information about how he thinks and how he catches scum? That helps the scum.
Why does he need to make a case on why someone is scum? Once he knows who scum is, he assumes the logic will be clear to everyone else.
What does he need to find scum? Information.

Am I saying he's good? No. I'm not. He's town. Stop with this senseless town on town crap, I get so tired of bad day 1 lynches they make my stomach hurt.

[GreyICE]

STOP IT GODDAMN IT YOU HORRIBLE TOWNIES %#@!%$@!$@!

[GreyICE]

Why is it that the only people who seem to stay on track are the ones I have scumreads on.

So glad Neruz gives awesome role advice, and I can trust my town read, but then nooooo, my Ant read goes and does this. Waaaaaaaaaaa!

I wanna cry.

[GreyICE]

Seriously Neruz, go ISO Krazy if you wanna see scum asking bad questions all the time. But nooo, you're like "Imma gonna vote Nathanael." I'm like not even gonna bother to respond to this crap anymore. I'm just going to scream random stuff in Yiddish whenever one of you does something like this. And I don't even know Yiddish.

[GreyICE]

No. It's not contradictory because the fact that he has a town-based logical process doesn't mean the process is any good. It is, in fact, pretty clearly crap here. Wee dee dee. Crap reasoning is scum how? And... it's not.

Krazy is asking questions with reasoning. Is cool, because all his reasoning is "I is scum and I gotz red in my PM." I don't need a case, I'm just that fucking awesome here, Krazy. Just sit there and wonder. I'll tell you awesome bedtime stories when I wanna lynch you.

[GreyICE]

Aww, I owe Neruz a hug.

*hug*

Did my hug make you feel better?

[GreyICE]

Goddamn it. I was gonna make some *goodposting* comments about DRK and stuff, but then my brain melted, dribbled out my eardrums and evaporated in response to what was just put in the thread.

I'm just gonna say I don't favor a bgg lynch because I'm way too curious what happens next. Which is a reason, dammit.

Jackshit has happened on the Xine front, and I'm very sad that since she became the largest wagon her contribution to the town has been to lurk until our replacements come and hope the town gets bored and changes their votes.

[GreyICE]

Xine (5): Greedling, GreyICE, Hiraki, Neruz, Llamarble,
Neruz (4):Ant_to_the_max, Nathanael, Xine, bgg1996,

Damn it people, what happened since then? The scum is making fun of us.

But nice way to comment on something that happened in the last three pages rather than nitpick a minor detail when you're called on your amazing lurking. Scum.

[GreyICE]

Everyone here deserves a Fate. Oh yes they do.

[GreyICE]

Two crowds stood, in the center of a town. One accused a beautiful woman. “Her kind face and her shrouded smile hides a heart of ice!” They cried. And indeed, her actions fit these words, for she was accusing this noble paladin of plotting to destroy the town.

“He would kill an innocent!” she exclaimed, although she was uncertain of the innocence of the one she protected. “Even the dark and twisted think he is evil!” she decried, although why the evil was turning upon its own was not mentioned. Although her voice seemed to lead the crowd, she was not the first to the gathering. She followed a craftsman. But where this craftsman probed for reasons and truth, she cried for blood and appealed to the hearts of the crowd.

Accusing this woman was a crowd bringing hope to the town but with one dubious figure, for leading it was the strangest of sights. It was lead by a greedy man who professed to be convinced of her evil by the voice of a harlequin - a voice that professed disbelief alongside its accusations. Did this greedy man seek to separate himself from the lady with the heart of ice? The remainder of the voices against her were strong and strident, voices of those who sought to protect the town.

But as both crowds waited for the other actors, a harried director explained that our scene was delayed. "A casting call," he tells us.

As the director searched for new actors the crowd accusing the woman with the heart of ice began to disperse. The noble paladin found the man on the hill most curious. This questioning man provided no reasons or justification. He did not seem to understand that others would grow to hate that which did not make sense, and he refused to explain himself. Others found small reasons to turn upon each other, and the woman with the heart of ice was left to her own devices. She found none of the crowd evil, except the paladin, and offered them no help. But her darkness became mundane, and the small points grew as the wait extended.

As the new actors joined the scene, one stood out. Standing in for the greedy man was a lunatic, although this lunatic appeared to have a most certain purpose. He wished others to find the Paladin evil, but also disliked the woman with the heart of ice. All those who thought the Paladin good were blackguards, although he seemed uncertain of the alignment of the Paladin. And the most evil was one who seemed to agree with what he was saying, a Harlequin in tattered motley.

A new voice arises to quell this din of chaos. A panther who has left the jungle, and now stalks the ultimate prey.

Is it time to abandon the noble
And embrace the savage?

Is this task for a Paladin
Or one for a Predator?

Unvote

Vote: Krazy

[GreyICE]

Hypothetically, are you claiming mafia godfather in thread?

[GreyICE]

Whatever, bgg is vig bait, if we find out we don't have a vig we can lynch him later.

I'd prefer to lynch someone I feel more confident about flipping scum.

[GreyICE]

I thought I saw somebody acting like a cop. I'm most likely wrong, but that could mean either scum pretending, or an actual cop, who I don't want to lynch.

Vig.

Bait.

[GreyICE]

@TheButtonman: No.

[GreyICE]

@TheButtonman: No.

Unvote; Vote: GreyICE

Not joking, I will happily lynch you if you don't explain.

Cool story, bro.

[GreyICE]

Krazy is scum jesus read responses he just sits there and scumplains
Xine is obv scum she roleclaimed cookie monster in thread for fucks sake
Buttonman/Mute/Eek/bgg/someone else who has contributed jack shit is #3.

[GreyICE]

Fine.

I call last scum as The Buttonman for this amazing post:

In honor of DRK's Good Posting allow me to make somethings clear;

PEOPLE I'M WILLING TO KILL TODAY: NERUZ, MUTE,

KRAZY AND XINE.

PEOPLE WHO NEED TO TALK AT AND/OR WITH ME MORE: MY MILKED EEK, LLMARBLE, HIKARI AND NATHANAL.

Oh look, he asked Nath, me, you, Mute, MME, Llamarble, and Hiraki questions - at least. He doesn't want to draw more attention to his failboat partners until he can scream at them in the QT to clean up their act. The only questions he's asked Krazy are to make him try and make a case on you since he seems vaguely competent. And he's asked Xine jack shit all game.

Yeah, if I had partners like that, I'd want to ignore it.

bgg is probably going to flip some flavor of town, but he's getting too fucking irritating.

Vote:bgg

Roleclaim: I'm a 1-shot paranoid gun owner or doctor

Town power roles and scum, make of that as you will. Not too worried about anything unless we get fucked on night actions.

[GreyICE]

I NO

I am about 70% we are lynching town. And at this point I don't even goddamn care. This town will be better without him in it.

[GreyICE]

Fine with me. Lynch is inevitable, lurkers can answer tomorrow.

Mute. There are reasons for those opinion switches of Llamarble's. He's following the thread. He's town. Reading assignment: Read thread. Ignore ISOs. Changing your mind is not a scumtell. You're not scum, don't be a pain in the arse.

DRK, homework assignment: Be more awesome. Wait, not possible. You rock, man

Neruz, homework assignment: More A game, less D- game

Hiraki: Eh, you're town.

Buttonman: Sit there and wonder, or work it out yourself. What's your theory on the fail vote, anyway, want to hear the logic tomorrow.

Xine: QT shennanigans

Krazy: QQ in the QT

Llamarble: Get back on this site and do something.

Nathaniel: Make your logic comprehensible to the rest of us.

Lurkers: Lurk less

bgg: Flip Jester or whatever your failrole was.

[GreyICE]

Are you kidding me? That Greedling vote had distancing written all over it. No one in their right mind would say that the bgg case was good, so Greedling doing nothing to express suspicion of Xine would be scummy, to newbie scum. Sheeping the worst case imaginable and declaring it good? BAAAAH.

Oh well. Second scum now most likely Neruz because of my brain turning back on, though it's sad to say I can't rule you out, Llamarble.

Third still likely Xine.

[GreyICE]

Oh well. Second scum now most likely Neruz because of my brain turning back on

So where's the vote then?

Krazy shall flip Roleblocker first, Neruz. Then you're confirmed scum.

Wheels within wheels, my friend.

[GreyICE]

Vote: Krazy

Not CONFIRMED Neruz if he doesn't flip Roleblocker, but likely anyway. Llama looks town, but he can be tricky. Mute... possible. But I'm not sure.

If you're looking for explanations later: DeathRowKitty.

[GreyICE]

Cop here.

Guilty on GreyIce.

Vote GreyIce

Hope this game has a doc!

Shut up, scum roleblocker.

[GreyICE]

Krazy = mod-confirmed scum.

Game on!

[GreyICE]

*waits for someone to ask the secrets of what happened last night*

[GreyICE]

Or you could just vote Krazy, trust me that Neruz's derail on the wagon comes from scum who didn't want the roleblocker to flip, and roll!

[GreyICE]

Dunno if I like Xine as number 3, if she is the scumteam was bussing like shit, but the Neruz/Krazy interaction, Neruz's "I'll vote for Krazy," his response to my claim, the bgg wagon, and what went down are gonna end him.

Figured sticking you on as a town read was nice and safe.

[GreyICE]

I'm looking forward to your OMGUS explanation Ice.

Voted for you first, K-kid.

I'm good, but I ain't psychic.

You're not a cop, and you are so going down.

[GreyICE]

It was your little scumslip that did it in, Krazy

Can you find where you claimed it?

[GreyICE]

I'm psychic, I can see into your quicktopic!

[GreyICE]

*cough*

Might as well explain. I've been getting a warm/cold feeling from Neruz ever since he stalled the Xine wagon, and decided to look at Nathaniel rather than Krazy when Krazy was such amazingly obvious scum that even I can tell.

His advice on the PGO was what sealed the deal. Go look at what he told me on PGO claims. Then go look at what he said to me when I claimed. According to him, I claimed at exactly the wrong time... and he told me good time to claim. He also blatantly derailed the Krazy wagon onto noob-town bgg, which I needed the flip on to confirm.

Final point, my true and honest claim.

I am the town doctor.

Target last night: DeathRowKitty

I was roleblocked. Neruz decided to test my claim, but rather than have it be 9:2 town scum, he realized that using the worthless roleblocker to test my claim would leave it 8:2 if the claim was honest... and he'd have exhausted my one claimed one shot. Only other person who might have pulled that gambit is Llamarble or TheButtonman, but TBM is too lurky and useless in general, and Llamarble has been absent from the site and would never have time to pick it apart. Neruz is exactly cautious enough not to straight up take the shot on me, and exactly smart enough to puzzle out what he did.

Krazy scumslipped when he claimed. "Hope we have a doc!" It's what they've been speculating in their thread, and he couldn't resist the jibe at me when he made the cop claim that WILL see him lynched. In theory, after they get me lynched.

Once Krazy flips scum, I'm going to be dead tonight, so I owe you some reads. This time with no power-role obfuscating bullshit that I used to randomize my read list.

Last scum is still probably Xine, but I'll give it a read over.

[GreyICE]

I won't be able to try and lynch you tomorrow, but you know that Neruz Once Krazy flips scum, I'm fairly town, and since I'm our protective role, I'm confirmed corpse unless they WIFOM themselves about a watcher possibility.

I wouldn't have claimed if it wasn't obvious as hell I'd been roleblocked, but since I was, it's nothing they don't know already.

Make sure not to accidental lynch before I get one last chance to get a readthrough.

PEDIT: Llamarble, that's why I figure Krazy is the roleblocker. Otherwise, they either don't do anything to me, or take an honest shot at me using their most obvious scumbuddy. However, if Krazy is the roleblocker, then he already is the most obvious scum. And 9:2 is 3 mislynches to LyLo. 8:2 is 2 mislynches to MyLo. So better to blow a roleblocker on the PGO than an actual kill, especially since I claimed one shot.

[GreyICE]

bgg1996 what is your experience playing Mafia?

Around the middle-end of 2009 I played a few games on a rather inexperienced site. A bit after that I played a newbie game on this site as a... Roleblocker? It was a mafia role, I remember. I was about to lose, but I won because the time ran out.

The reason I voted Xine? There isn't much of one. I mainly voted him because he said I was mafia. I am a good guy. I didn't need much of a reason to change votes. I voted My Milked Eek originally for almost no reason at all. A random vote, I thought was best at the time.

Also, yes. I get rather defensive. I always do.

I can support this. I was suspecting you tell now as just bullrushing Xine lynch,

but this makes sense.

unvote

vote Xine

BTW, this is the Greedling post I was talking about. Bgg's case wouldn't have made sense to a stewed monkey. Either he's opportunistic scum looking to jump on the nearest wagon, or he's sloppy-distancing. Now read the Krazy-Xine interactions. THE LATTER.

[GreyICE]

Huh. If Xine is scum, then Neruz is almost certainly not, because I cannot believe that we got two scum wagons to 5 votes, that just never goddamn happens.

Dear lord do I owe this game a readover now that I don't have to make pants-on-head reads and get at least one vote by end of day.

[GreyICE]

Yes Grey, you do. Game is now srs bsns, off with the pants hat and on with the srs hat.

Oh come on, I had to be a little silly. No way the rest of you would buy that I was lurking, and every thing other than silly involves me acting scummy, which is not how you protect your damn power role. Also, I like being silly and should do it more awesome. It pulls bad votes like TBM's yesterday... huh. I wonder on that. No way I called the scum team on day 1. Just... no way. But his play is so bad, and those questions to Krazy were just "come on, make a case on Neruz, pleaaaseeeee." It so is the experienced scum guiding the inexperienced scum.

You know what? Screw your derailing the Krazy lynch, it looks bad if Krazy flips roleblocker, but bgg was immensely irritating and deserved his lynch. Town can make up its mind on the rest of the scumteam without me.


Okay, quick reads:

Nathaniel

: Town. But man... you're smart. But you're half forming ideas. Try typing them out to people, and turn them into cases. You would not believe the number of things I've written out, read over, and gone "well that's immense horseshit." As soon as you have to turn those gut reads and insights into logic and cases, they become better.

Hiraki:

So town.

My Milked Eek

Town. That putting him in the scum column yesterday? Yeah, remember what I said about pants reads? That was one.

Mute:

Town. His declaration that Bgg was a bad day 1 lynch was INCREDIBLY pro-town. It may be one of the single most pro-town things anyone has done. He'll have to work hard to erase that. Not that one pro-town action erases everything, but think about that one for a second. He worked to derail a mislynch because it was too easy. Is that scummy? NO.

SC/Pappums:

Town read, but mild.

Xine:

SCUM. I stand by it.

------------------------------

Now for the more controversial reads:

Llamarble

: Conservative player who knows my love of gambiting. I still read him as town, but he's GOOD. He hasn't been lurking, btw. He's been genuinely absent from these forums. We're in other games together, and that is NULL. NULL, NULL, NULL. Don't lynch him for that. Lynch him for legitimately scummy things, if he does them.

Neruz:

I can't help it. My brain says that if Krazy flips roleblocker, he derailed the wagon on the scum roleblocker to lynch town. My heart says town. Has since he stopped the theory, and started playing.

TBM:

Earns an entire post.

[GreyICE]

TBM: PBPA? Not quite. I have to highlight some stuff in his ISO.

Vote: Greedling

for going for the easy peezy wagon

No way this goes to lynch. Does this say "straighten up" to your newbie scum partner? Sure. NEVER follows up on it. Mark that. For someone who has done little besides ask questions, he NEVER follows up on his vote on that slot.

The tunnel on Neruz was kinda alright, I can't totally disagree with everything he said even if I don't buy that they're scummy (I buy that SOMEONE might think they're scummy).

Neruz's freakout is bad town play as it moves the game away from how people are positioning themselves and puts the emphasis on who is being ruder to the other person. I call bad town play "anti-town" and I'm sorry if I am misusing that term. So Neruz's statement, hyperbole or serious, is still bad town play, but I forgive him for it (for now) because bgg was certainly provoking him.

1. Quote the posts you consider certain provoking and explain the differences in what I did and that Bgg did.
2. Why do you excuse him?

Remember, this is the poster replacing into the only non-Neruz spot he found scummy enough to vote for (I mean besides me, but to that vote). And he asks him to... help the case on Neruz. Uh...

So he's in a tunnel, right? Never gets out, never finds anyone suspicious, get Neruz lynched anyone who doesn't vote him is scum?

The last half of this day is just completely depressing. We've gotten literally nowhere the last 10 pages at a very minimum.

Guess why? I wonder which player keeps throwing shitfits and insulting other players / cases rather then actually responding / scumhunting.... Oh right the player who you won't vote.

EBWOP: I'd also like to clarify something. I don't like arguing. But when someone tells me that I'm retarded, I most definitely will take total offense to it and rage. This is a game, and low insults like that are pitiful.

What the crap is this, you were perfectly okay with it when Neruz was throwing his fits, this a crappy oppertunistic reasoning to hop on the BGG wagon. Major scum points for this cognative dissonce between this stance and you using Neruz rage as an example of town frustration.

Oh wait, Krazy is the ONLY person he treats this way.

THE ONLY PERSON.

Oh and then he hops to Mute with no explanation.

In honor of DRK's Good Posting allow me to make somethings clear;
PEOPLE I'M WILLING TO KILL TODAY: NERUZ, MUTE, KRAZY AND XINE.
PEOPLE WHO NEED TO TALK AT AND/OR WITH ME MORE: MY MILKED EEK, LLMARBLE, HIKARI AND NATHANAL.

Yeah, so he moves from pleading with Krazy to make a case/vote on Neruz to being willing to kill him. BULLSHIT.

[GreyICE]

Don't like him very much at ALL.

So, that's where I am. I'll warn you all though, I have never ever successfully called a scumteam on day 1, and I doubt I did it here, even with two flips to help me.

[GreyICE]

Don't like him very much at ALL.

So, that's where I am. I'll warn you all though, I have never ever successfully called a scumteam on day 1, and I doubt I did it here, even with two flips to help me.

I'm pretty sure this is an inverse form of the 3 for 3 fallacy there Grey

Nah, if I did it, I'll happily write it in my records with a little stamp of approval

I think the players here are good enough not to sheep my reads enough to let scummy players off because I had a bad read on day 1, but I did want that disclaimer so the post doesn't get used as evidence. It's a guide, not a set of marching orders

I really did enjoy being in this game with y'all, though the plus side is the dead thread has DRK, and I already miss him.

[GreyICE]

I tried to explain it earlier. Just... he doesn't seem scum to me. I agree he badly needs to step his gameplay up, but his reasoning all says "town looking for answers" not "scum looking to push suspicion around."

[GreyICE]

Then if I'm still alive, lynch me the day before LyLo.

I make this statement with perfect certainty that I won't be. The fact that I know I was roleblocked means that they know that I targeted DRK. I doubt on how much longer they care to play WIFOM with me, especially since it means taking decidedly suboptimal shots, and it means that their ability to kill claiming power roles is zilch.

As I said, I have a strong suspicion Krazy will flip Roleblocker, because that's the only reason to roleblock me rather than just have the scummiest scumteam member shoot me outright to find out. It's certainly no one in the town's good graces.

Neruz is the person who I suspect working that one out who was following the game the closest, but is also the one who feels the most town, and rereading the bgg shift it feels a lot more frustrated town than scum derailing a lynch. I owe him a reread or two, but he's been very town. Llama is the one with the most familiarity with my fondness for gambits, and I don't like the post above (Llama would probably know the answer is 'lynch the doc claim the day before LyLo.') TBM is scummy and smart. And scummy. And lurky. I just don't like TBM at all.

[GreyICE]

This is half shitty and half scummy;

A) How would copKrazy know that GreyICE was a PGODoc??

B) GreyICE never claimed PGO.

C) Normal site meta is roleblocking a PGO results in a dead roleblocker
D) Reverse that logic;

I don't know what motivated the copclaim out of the gate D2 though.

What motivates scum to go for a one for one out of the gate D2?
E) Neruz is scum taking advantage of this to get Krazy lynched which frees up their NK.

I don't know if he's scum WIFOMing us into thinking he's actually town by doing the "oh no, it couldn't possibly be me because I never would have known that!" Or maybe he's just really that disconnected from the game.

[GreyICE]

If you seriously didn't notice, and you're town, either replace out or start reading this fucking game.

[GreyICE]

Fine.

I call last scum as The Buttonman for this amazing post:

In honor of DRK's Good Posting allow me to make somethings clear;

PEOPLE I'M WILLING TO KILL TODAY: NERUZ, MUTE,

KRAZY AND XINE.

PEOPLE WHO NEED TO TALK AT AND/OR WITH ME MORE: MY MILKED EEK, LLMARBLE, HIKARI AND NATHANAL.

Oh look, he asked Nath, me, you, Mute, MME, Llamarble, and Hiraki questions - at least. He doesn't want to draw more attention to his failboat partners until he can scream at them in the QT to clean up their act. The only questions he's asked Krazy are to make him try and make a case on you since he seems vaguely competent. And he's asked Xine jack shit all game.

Yeah, if I had partners like that, I'd want to ignore it.

bgg is probably going to flip some flavor of town, but he's getting too fucking irritating.

Vote:bgg

Roleclaim: I'm a 1-shot paranoid gun owner or doctor

Town power roles and scum, make of that as you will. Not too worried about anything unless we get fucked on night actions.

Post #745.

And that was lame enough that I'm pretty goddamn sure you're scum. It's such a pants-on-head thing to fakeclaim and EVERYONE has assumed it today that any town motivation would just check. You're like "herp, well I made the "I don't have a clue" gambit, better stick it out!

[GreyICE]

<3 Neruz. <3

[GreyICE]

Very nice case, Krazy. Except that it requires me to see the future.

Post #770

Oh well. Second scum now most likely Neruz because of my brain turning back on

So where's the vote then?

Krazy shall flip Roleblocker first, Neruz. Then you're confirmed scum.

Wheels within wheels, my friend.

Post #771

Vote: Krazy

Not CONFIRMED Neruz if he doesn't flip Roleblocker, but likely anyway. Llama looks town, but he can be tricky. Mute... possible. But I'm not sure.

If you're looking for explanations later: DeathRowKitty.

Cop claim:

Post #773.

That means

1) I anticipated a cop would investigate a claimed paranoid gun owner NIGHT ONE, and set up the doctoring DRK claim PRIOR TO HIS COP CLAIM just to prepare for the possibility that a cop would investigate me night 1.

2) I set this up with him in the QT the night before, per Llamarble's idea.

3) I PMed the moderator to ensure no mistakes, then immediately made the posts I did once I received confirmation.

I don't know if that's quite the response you anticipated, but I was prepared for the scum to come at me today. I thought DRK would be alive and today would be about watching the scumteam add 2 and 2 to figure out what had happened, but apparently someone on the team is a tad better than that. Could be Xine, she's definitely smart, but she's a tad too new as scum, I'm inclined to think it's someone who has my number a bit better than that.

If anyone is inclined to believe this, just consider the likelihood that the following all occurred.

1) Krazy is town, and the cop
2) I am scum, and claimed Paranoid gun owner/doctor because I was unsure if my behavior was townish enough and was scared of cops.
3) The town cop had so few scumreads besides me, and his scumread of me is so strong that he investigated a PGO

on night 1

.
4) I started today by talking about a roleblocker and DeathRowKitty because I was laying the ground to support a doctor fakeclaim in case any cop investigated me night 1.

That leaves Llamarble's theory that this is an elaborate double bus (which can be solved by lynching me the day before LyLo if the scum wanna play 'shoot around the doc') and the truth: Krazy is scum. He is most likely the roleblocker. I am the doctor. I laid the groundwork for a PGO claim early in the day D1, then claimed it at the end of the day when it became apparent I was a good candidate for the Night Kill. I targeted DRK after working fairly hard yesterday to guide the scum shots onto targets I could protect, and DRK's goodposting and some subtle guidance nearly assured me that the shot was going into him. His death assures me that I was roleblocked.

I also can show the PGO claim starting early in the day, subtle moves I did to guide the night kill, and many instances of weird/unusual posting, uncharacteristic lurking, and general bad reads I gave yesterday that, while not scummy, were designed to give them hope that I would be a mislynch.


PEDIT: One shot is EXPLICITLY allowed in normal games.

[GreyICE]

Yep, Marble is town. You're not good enough to pull that flail on a buddy.

Wanna interact with Thebuttonman a little? I'd find it very educational.

[GreyICE]

Well, guess I have to go reveal some of the background research I did for this.

Game 934: Troubles at Smiths&Catharts
Moderator: Col.Cathart
Result: Draw

Players:
MichelSableheart replaces Locke Lamora who replaces Ythan

(One-Shot Paranoid Gun Owner)

Oh hey, it's exactly the role used the last time that showed up. From the mini-normal archives.

Sure, it's infrequent, I figured I'd get SOMETHING from the scumteam, and look. I did.

[GreyICE]

No Krazy. It's absolutely clear that you are lying in thread.

I'm sure there was quite a bit of disbelief kicked around in thread. I'm sure you discussed this last night, you were probably the lynch for today anyway. Your play yesterday was that bad. The play was to claim cop with a guilty on me if you lived, and see if you could get me lynched.

Now, scum, explain something to me. How, as scum, did I manage to concoct the story that I was roleblocked and post the breadcrumbs and skeleton in the thread... before you posted your "cop" results? Did I somehow anticipate that you were a cop and chose to cop me night 1? If I did, why am I playing Mafia rather than making a fortune buying lottery tickets?

As for why the roleblock, I explained that, and that's simple enough:

Submit NK on me if I'm telling the truth = 1 dead scum, 9:2 (3 mislynches to LyLo)
Submit NK on me, I'm lying = 1 dead town ???????, 8:3 (2 mislynches to LyLo)
Submit Roleblock on me, NK DRK, I'm telling the truth = 1 dead scum, 1 dead town (2 mislynches to MyLo)
Submit Roleblock on me, NK DRK, I'm lying = you claim cop in thread, get me mislynched, accept your lynch tomorrow. 5:2 (1 mislynch to LyLo)

Since your slot was unsalvageable, submitting the NK on me was clearly worse for your team whether I'm lying or telling the truth. Roleblock me, then if you live sacrifice yourself to a claimed cop result.

It's a safe play and it's a good one. I did see it coming when the results hit though.

[GreyICE]

You know Krazy, if you'd just stopped talking and gone into hard lurker mode, you'd look

less

scummy than you do now.

This is going to be great for us after this lynch, because we'll probably be able to find your scumbuddies fairly easily by looking for the players who desperately attempted to distance themselves from your sinking ship, which is also on fire and being invaded by aliens.

Which is probably the cue for TheButtonman to post...

[GreyICE]

Here's a thought. Let's not kill a claimed power role today. Most likely one of them will be killed tonight, and we will have 100% certainty who the scum out of the 2 is tomorrow. Worst case scenario=Scum do not kill one of the two, setting a WIFOM trap, and we lynch one or the other to force a card flip tomorrow, which, if we mis-lynch today is the day before lylo (I think)

Can anyone else support finding a different scum to lynch today?

OH FOR GODS SAKE.

MAKE SURE THIS IS DEAD TOMORROW, OKAY?

I'M NOT SITTING HERE ROLEBLOCKED FOR ANOTHER NIGHT JESUS H CHRIST.

[GreyICE]

Well Krazy is doing a better job of sounding town, I'll give him that, but he's crippled by the fact that he can't address the facts as a whole. The facts are simply this.

1) I claimed PGO/Doctor yesterday.
2) Krazy the Cop thought the PGO role so suspicious that he decided to investigate me to see if I was town - despite clearly never checking what roles were allowed in a mini normal (he thought 1-shot was EXPLICITLY non-normal).
3) GreyICE-scum was so paranoid of being copped that he laid the groundwork for the doctor targeting DRK and roleblocked case, despite:
-Claiming PGO
-Having no reason to suspect anyone thought his play particularly scummy
-Having no reason to believe there was a cop in this setup
4) Krazy, rather than attempt to get me lynched for the PGO claim - which he thought was impossible, immediately claims cop.

Screw Doctor. Scum roleblocker. How many mini-normals have one of those again? 95% of those with a cop+doctor?

This requires me to be playing some sort of bipolar scumgame. I'm so paranoid of cops that I not only claim PGO but lay down breadcrumbs in case the cop does investigate me, just so I can live one more day. But I'm so fond of gambiting that I write stories in the thread and change my incidental reads every four or five pages.

Or I'm a power role who was trying to look inoffensive, but when it became reasonably apparent that I was a good NK candidate, chose to gambit. When DRK died, it became apparent my bluff had been called, and I decided to run with it and see who I could catch off that, since my chances of living past tonight had dropped to zero.

I suppose the third possibility is what Llamarble said - that me and Krazy cooked this up in the QT so that ONE of us HAD to be town. All I'll say to that is, if I'm still alive in a few days, lynch me the day before LyLo. I'll flip Doctor, but at least it'll be WIFOM off your plate.

PEDIT: Interesting call, Llamarble. However Ant never voted for bgg. I only consider that a true scumtell when it's aimed at the person your vote is sitting on. Think of Beefster with the Shado shot in MPM - he flips town, and Beefster is already looking for who to call scum next based on a shot

he said was good.

Ant said that bgg was town, and said that if bgg was PROVEN town, it made several people more suspicious. So it's a bit scummy, but not a true tell. Though I guess I'm in one of the rare situations where it's fair to say that at least one of us HAS to be scum

Mute reads town, so don't push that tell past reason.

[GreyICE]

@Marble: Do you want to wait for TheButtonman to post something?

[GreyICE]

Fair enough. If you're town you goddamn need something to prevent your mislynch because at the moment you have some truly poor posts in this thread.

[GreyICE]

No, because as soon as I am dead Krazy gets himself lynched, and that confirms me as town and confirms everything I said in the thread as being said with a town motive, and confirms Krazy as scum and everything he said as coming from scum. Moreover, Krazy is getting lynched today. If you have more time to coach him in the QT, he MIGHT be able to get me lynched which, if we mislynch today, is pretty much that.

They can just Roleblock me and leave me here spinning my wheels. Not happening, Xine. But thanks for confirming

Anyway, since Krazy's last post does not actually scream "I'm scum, lynch me!" I'll just lay out the case and sequence of events again.

1) I'm the town doctor
2) I wanted the maximum survival chances. From yesterday, me or DRK was the NK, and I wanted to ensure it was DRK, and maximize my survival time.
3) Hence pulling the trigger on the PGO gambit I set up on about page 3.

I protected DRK. Did a lot of in-thread work to ensure that he was eating the NK, and I can show you some of it, but it basically involves subtle slights on most of the other likely candidates. Neruz starting the bgg wagon rolling made it really, really easy though. I protected him.

That's the facts and events of day 1 and night 1. Now check out my posts #771 where I vote for Krazy and explain the target.

Was it cryptic? Yes. It was a trap. I wanted to ensure I got scum, and I did.

Vote: Krazy

Not CONFIRMED Neruz if he doesn't flip Roleblocker, but likely anyway. Llama looks town, but he can be tricky. Mute... possible. But I'm not sure.

If you're looking for explanations later: DeathRowKitty.

Why did I write that before the cop claim? Because everything I have said was true. Why would I write that as scum? Not one motive at all.

Krazy will flip scum. I will flip town doctor. To you, these are unconfirmed. To me, these are the simple facts, and I am more than willing to demonstrate everything I did to survive as a town power role, and everything I did to ensure my power role would be useful. If you're unconvinced, ask away.

[GreyICE]

I refuse to believe TBM and Xine are scum together at this point. Xine's reaction is such a classic scum reaction. "Lets leave it for tomorrow." Like "today is going poorly, lets see if we can regroup in the QT and make it work."

TBM has come out boldly, completely, and clearly for lynching the town doctor over scum. That's quite something for a scum player to manage, especially if he's watching his second partner throw her life away. The way he 'metaed' and then produced zero results of the meta for either me or Krazy was very poor, but I just don't see a scum Buttonman throw his life into a thresher that's going to eat two of his teammates.

Llamarble looks a lot, lot better bet for #3. His vote for Krazy was FUCKING AWFUL. It says "well he's fucked up. Shit." He has a strong loyalty to his team, and the way that my scumdar is going off on Xine (and his is just as good) means that 2+2 ain't equalling 4 on that one.

But if Xine flips town all bets are off on that, since Buttonman could be easily running screening and counting on Xine to get mislynched.

To be clear, I'd very, very strongly prefer that you lynch Krazy and I die tonight, since it'll suck moose if you lynch me and then lynch Krazy tomorrow. Does it mean an autoloss if I'm lynched? No. But I don't like being mislynched, I doubly don't like being mislynched as a power role, and while I take it as a compliment that the scum threw out one of their (admittedly nigh-useless) team members to get me, I'm not

Floor is still open. Pappums, Hiraki, whoever... any questions? I've said it three times now - if there's any part of my story that isn't clear or anything you want to know from yesterday, I'll tell you. There's no mysteries at this point, my power role is out for once and for all, and I'll answer whatever you want to know about my play and what I did yesterday.

[GreyICE]

*I'm not willing to roll over and die just because of a fake cop claim.

that's how that should end.

[GreyICE]

The problem with that analysis is CBA the scumteam has to run. If I'm a PGO, and intercept their night kill, it's 9:2, and they have to get four mislynches to win (exactly like a day 1 scum lynch). If I kill their roleblocker, it's 8:2, and they need three mislynches to win. So if they are unsure of the PGO claim, a roleblock makes sense. It turns me into a VT if I'm a doctor, and if I'm a PGO they don't lose too much - as long as their Roleblocker is scummy. Which is why it's Krazy who is the roleblocker. They're throwing him away on this gambit, which is why TBM is not scum - they're not going to throw their entire team away on this.

[GreyICE]

In any case, fairly good to have you playing and making cases. You'll learn a little about why you need to add some basic motivation psychology into your logic after my flip (which is happening before tomorrow whether you lynch me or not), but good posting.

Nath is town.

[GreyICE]

Then again, TBM's argument that I should just roll over and accept my mislynch is kinda fucking crap. You NEVER accept a mislynch as town. EVER. I KNOW FOR A FACT that Krazy is scum, and I will do anything and everything to make sure that he is dead. Self voting and giving up is for scum once you realized that anything you do might out your buddies.

TBM

If you're town, I want you to read over this game after me or Krazy flips, and realize exactly how utterly and completely useless you've been. And as a reward for coming out strongly in favor of lynching town over scum, I want you to fucking go back through and step up your gameplay. At this point I think the town would be better off if you were chesskid. Agree to this?

[GreyICE]

Nope. Been the town doctor since I got my role PM. No pick and choose. Krazy is definitely, definitely, definitely scum.

Xine is such a goddamn definite read, there's no town reason for her to be waffling. Mute... uh... yeah, your logic blows chunks.

As for whether or not Xine's plan is a good idea, definitely, emphatically not. She's obvscum, no matter who you believe. I would self-vote before I will allow the town to lynch someone who is not Krazy or me today, and I meant it when I said I intend never to self-vote as town. I'd prefer Krazy, but to make this game work you guys need to know that Krazy is scum and I am town. And that means one of us gets lynched today.

If you lynch the scum, that's the best, because then I die at night. If you lynch me, we'll lose two more townies. But it's STILL better than lynching another person.

There are no acceptable votes other than Krazy or me. Period.

His claim is definitely, emphatically, 100% false. I'm going to go back through and highlight what I did in day 1 to set this up,I really, really don't want to be the lynch, but NO ONE else is acceptable today besides one of the two of us.

[GreyICE]

It's just kinda half complete. Like, completely utterly half complete. I like some of it, but some parts are like... waaaaaa?

As for the constant refrain of innocence, you know when I said I was guiding the NK? Xine is fairly obvscum. I figured, at that stage, that inserting the idea that a Xine scumflip would mean confirmed Neruz-town onto them would cause the bullet to go straight into Neruz, which I could intercept. That's when the refrain of Neruz being confirmed fucking town if Xine flipped scum, etc., came from.

Once Neruz started petering out around midday in response to the replacements and Bgg's wall of... uh... whatever, DRK picked up a goddamn lot of slack, and slammed a case into #2 on my scum candidates. I was more or less active lurking at that point to avoid becoming too large of a target, and I figured that was an easy time to start downplaying Neruz and pushing DRK. Which worked exactly as I intended, minus the roleblocker.

The bgg lynch meant I needed to play the PGO card, btw. I fully intended to leave it in my pocket since if DRK had been the one to force the lynch through on Krazy-scum, he'd have almost certainly been the NK target without me needing to do anything, and I was definitely moving away from strong town motivator at that point, but the bgg lynch (which he completely fucking deserved) made me a fairly good target for causing complete chaos on day 2.

[GreyICE]

He initially voted Krazy, then unvoted to avoid the self-hammer. That's hardly anti-town.

[GreyICE]

Buttonmen: You promise me once I flip town you'll actually step up your game and do something to prevent you from being 1 step above bgg in the easy mislynch category?

If you're scum, keep right on.

[GreyICE]

GI, I was just reading your ISO, do you think I'm scum??? I think you implied such an opinion a few times. I will repeat my question for you so that maybe you can answer it this time. here you implied that If you and Krazy both live through the day, that you would also live through the night. why do you not assume you'd be NK.

Nathanael your post was inspiring.

Mod, Should, My Milked Eek, be getting a prod

?

I may have implied something like that, yes. As in flat out stated that you're scum. It's because you're scum.

However if anyone needs proof tomorrow, this is the post.

greyice:
1. why is mute's reasoning bad?
2. what is your impression of krazy saying that neruz wanted him to be quiet?
3. what is your impression of mute saying llamarble was bussing him?
4. please show us where you set all this up.

2 and 3 i would like answered by other people as well, as i think these are important things.

1) Mute's reasoning is bad because of several things. First, there's no way I'd have the option of picking between PGO and doctor. That's as non-normal as a role could get, and very hard to balance for (first because PGO is a very weak role, whereas doctor is a very strong one, and it gets weirder from there). Second, he's overtunneling on Llama who, despite my doubts, should not be focused on higher than Xine (obvscum) and TBM (either really bad scum or really bad town, I can't tell which).

Llama does deserve attention though, which is why I say his logic is half complete. His weird willingness to believe I get some sort of binary role where I can pick PGO or Doctor aside, it's not totally bad.

2) Krazy is flailing. That was a clear misrep of Neruz - Neruz was saying that every post Krazy did made him scummier. At this point he's claiming a guilty on town, so finding minor scumtells in his posts is like complaining about a smudge of dirt on a pile of shit for me, but I understand that the rest of you don't have the benefit of my Role PM. Nevertheless, his latest post is a whole lot of bullshit. He's buddying his ass off without ever explaining the key of this entire thing - how did I softclaim both my role and my targets before he claimed if I'm claiming in response to his guilty?

3) I have a good history with scumslips recently. They come from from town. Two instances of people accidentally claiming scum in the thread as town. In comparison, that's minor. At worst, consider it a null tell, but it in no way means the remaining scumteam is Mute and Llamarble. Not that you should consider either cleared, but just assuming that's the last two scum is bad.

4) Okay, that's a tall order, but I'll do so.

I stuck out feelers on the PGO here and get a positive response from Neruz. At this point I'm just looking to breadcrumb things for WIFOM on the shot, I was hoping the town would have strong players doing good scumhunting so the WIFOM on the PGO role would be enough to push their shots elsewhere. I make occasional references to it elsewhere to keep it strong in scum minds.

I push the Neruz = town if Xine = scum here and here, as well as elsewhere. That reads list in the first is total garbage, btw, I deliberately put three town reads in the scum column, and kept randomizing thing (it's essentially meaningless if there isn't going to be a mislynch on a 'scum' read, and as long as the scum thought I was playing like shit, I'd be less likely to eat the NK).

At this point I lose my temper, and decide to stop deliberately ignoring the scum, since NO ONE seems to want to scumhunt. Krazy should have been pinging the shit out of people's radar screens, and just wasn't. I switch to DRK push here and here when it seems clear Neruz has given up on day 1. Wasn't hard as DRK had never had a wagon on him, had made a good case on Krazy, and was obvtown. So a few subtle pushes seemed in order, and then I'd have a fair certainty where it would go.

Role claim was to ensure no shenanigans with shooting me. Which worked about 50% as well as hoped.

P.S. As a point of interest, in Papa Zito's archives you have to go back to 1086 to find a town cop role. http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=15732

Nearly as far back as you have to go to find a PGO. Cop has generally fallen out of favor for minis.

[GreyICE]

Well fuck me, that's not how it worked on MTGS.



Would never have done that... yi, I need to learn action resolution one of these days.

If it makes you feel better, when I came up action resolution, I came up with it pretty much on what I felt would work best...my way isn't really any standard to go by >.> --Exe

[GreyICE]

This kills my Marble read.

You don't have to know I love gambiting, you just have to ask the mods questions.

Well, y'all sort it out. Don't let Xine and Buttons off the hook tomorrow, please.

[GreyICE]

I'll update what has changed from here:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 9#p2861399

Neruz

: He's so town it hurts. My gut and my head are working together now, if PGO is blockable this game. There's no risk to the roleblocker, so it could be anyone, you're not risking throwing him away.

Llamarble

: I ain't a fan of his Krazy vote today, and I feel he's buddying a bit hard. As he said, scum will be bussing (and one of them will be). But if it didn't need a gambit, it didn't need real knowledge of me, just a question to the moderator.

Xine

: Oh come on. She was straight up like "Krazy isn't going well today, lets see if we can get a mulligan and try again tomorrow." There's no town motive for derailing the subject until tomorrow. Town has less information to work with. It was a straight scum motive, see if they can get me lynched tomorrow instead of Krazy today. My read hasn't changed, but she keeps destroying reasons why she should live. Lynch with fire.

TBM

: I dislike why he asked ME why I was fighting my lynch as a town power role when they could lynch Krazy tomorrow, and didn't ask Krazy the same thing. His idea that the scum were trading 1:1 is also a tad silly (they're trading 3:1 if they get me lynched, as they get two NKs, and trading 8:3 for 5:2 isn't bad. Especially if you're trading a weaker teammate).

Still, Marble is right. Probably one scum is bussing at this stage.

Other than that, I don't think all that much has changed since that post. Nathaniel made a really good post that should show he's town to more than just me, and Mute's contributed his thoughts.

[GreyICE]

Okay buttonmen, lets see if this holds water.

By your logic, why is it so important that we lynch me and not Krazy? You seem to agree that whether Krazy is really the cop who targeted a claimed PGO, or whether I'm the doctor who didn't count on non-standard action resolution and gambited, if you lynch scum today the other one eats the night kill.

So there is 0% chance of there being any cop reads tomorrow, and 0% chance of having any successful doctor protects tomorrow.

But it seems absolute, utmost importance that we lynch me, and not Krazy. Llamarble's logic is good. It goes from 8:3 to 5:2 if you mislynch me today. Krazy is not a bad trade for 3 players, he was wagoned and near death yesterday, little chance he wouldn't die today, and if he's the roleblocker and I'm actually a PGO, well, there goes their chance to stop me (which makes this entire line of logic make sense).

And if it's really so unimportant, drop the hammer if Krazy is town, lynch me tomorrow. But for some reason you don't want that.

Lets ignore me breadcrumbing my claim before Krazy's cop claim (which needs me to be near-psychic, and which you have never addressed, nor has Krazy) and focus on my actions. You think that I was not only such obvscum yesterday that I was targeted by a cop despite a PGO claim, but that I am so very much more scummy than Krazy coming out of yesterday?

I keep going back and forth on you man. If you're scum, this is such a bad play. Xine is about what I'd expect - waffling, and then eventually "well, I'll drop the hammer,

but

lessee if someone salvages this situation."

Bussing is probably what I'd expect of the other teammate. I mean whether the town believes it or not, you earn mondo town cred once we both flip. But your play... if you're town, I'm SERIOUSLY smacking you in the postgame thread. If you're scum, I'm seriously just incredulous.

But lets try and make a determination. Since you completed the reread of the entire game, whose Krazy's most likely partners, if he's scum?

[GreyICE]

YOU FUCKING MOTHERFUCKERS

I WILL FUCKING END YOU

[GreyICE]

FUCK THIS

Vote: Xine

I AM ANGRY

YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW ANGRY

[GreyICE]

YOU DUMB FUCKS WANNA PLAY GAMES? FINE.

GAME ON

[GreyICE]

NO

DO YOU KNOW WHAT ITS LIKE TO SIT HERE ROLEBLOCKED WHILE THEY TAUNT ME?

[GreyICE]

TBM

EXPLANATIONS FOR YOUR NONSENSE

XINE... WE SHOULD HAVE LYNCHED YOU DAY 1

[GreyICE]

YES BASICALLY

MY RAGE METER IS AT 120

[GreyICE]

Yay, we were right!

Though I suppose it may have been impossible to be wrong between TBM/Grey.

I've not really been seeing Xinescum, but I'll keep reading her and trying.
I read TBM again and I can see the misguided town angle for him.

Currently I'm pondering MME & Mute & have to look more at Xine.

And I need to check on my Hirakitown read.

Something wrong here, or just me?

Not just you.

Xine should have been setting off these mile high alarm bells yesterday.

Like... scum is at L-2... lets save the matter for another day! Might go better that day!

I mean she had her vote on me for most of day 1 and she can't even come out and say that I'm scum with a claimed cop guilty? At least TBM had the courage of his convictions, such as they were. Xine didn't even have the friggin guts to come out and call me scum when she was voting for me for half of the first day.

[GreyICE]

Okay.

Unvote

Xine wagon is too easy at the moment. I don't feel much question she'll be lynched today, but I want some content first. I need some VCAs with Krazy scum, and Xine scum/VERY newb town, and see what I get.

BTW, Xine isn't noob town. Will be focusing on the scum half more.

[GreyICE]

Vote Analysis

Facts:
Neruz is town
Bgg is town VI (means scum may be much more tentative about his wagon than town)
DRK was obvtown before he was killed.

Assumptions:
1a: Xine is scum
1b: Xine is town

Xine (4):

GreyICE, Surprise_Carcinogen, Nathanael,

Neruz,

Llamarble (2): Llamarble, Ant_to_the_max,
GreyICE (2):

Greedling,

Xine,

[Redacted] (1):DeathRowKitty,
My Milked Eek (1): bgg1996,
DeathRowKitty (1): My Milked Eek,
Nathanael (1): Hiraki,

Xine (4):

Nathanael,

Neruz, bgg1996,

Greedling,

bgg1996 (3)

: Llamarble, GreyICE, Xine,
Nathanael (2): Hiraki,

DeathRowKitty,

Llamarble (1): Ant_to_the_max,
DeathRowKitty (1): My Milked Eek,
Neruz (1): [Redacted],

bgg1996 (4):

Xine,

Surprise_Carcinogen,

Neruz,

Hiraki,
Neruz (3): [Redacted], Ant_to_the_max, Nathanael,
Xine (2):

Greedling,

GreyICE,
Nathanael (1): DeathRowKitty,
DeathRowKitty (1): My Milked Eek,

Neruz (4): [Redacted], Ant_to_the_max, Nathanael,

Xine,

Xine (3): Greedling, GreyICE, Hiraki,
bgg1996 (2): Surprise_Carcinogen, Neruz,
Nathanael (1): DeathRowKitty,
DeathRowKitty (1): My Milked Eek,

Neruz (5):

[Redacted], Ant_to_the_max, Nathanael,

Xine,

bgg1996,

Xine (5)

:

Greedling,

GreyICE, Hiraki, Neruz, Llamarble,
/quote]

NB: Greedling is inactive at this point and the vote is parked like hell.

Xine (5):

Greedling, GreyICE, Hiraki,

Neruz,

Llamarble,

Neruz (4):

Ant_to_the_max, Nathanael, Xine,

bgg1996,

bgg1996 (1): Surprise_Carcinogen,
Nathanael (1): DeathRowKitty,
DeathRowKitty (1): My Milked Eek,

TBM is inactive like hell

ATM, SC get replaced

Neruz (4):

Ant_to_the_max, Nathanael,

Xine,

bgg1996,

Xine (3):

GreyICE, Hiraki,

Neruz,

bgg1996 (3):

Surprise_Carcinogen, Llamarble,

Krazy,

Ant_to_the_max (1): DeathRowKitty,

bgg1996 (3):

Pappums Rat, Llamarble,

Krazy,

Krazy (3):

DeathRowKitty,

Nathanael, GreyICE,

Neruz (2)

:Mute,

Xine,

bgg1996 (6): Pappums Rat, Llamarble,

Krazy,

Xine,

Neruz,

GreyICE,

Krazy (2):

DeathRowKitty,

Nathanael,

Neruz (1):

Mute,
Xine (1): Hiraki,
GreyICE (1): TheButtonmen,

Note: Neruz vote still the result of vote parking from Mute thanks to replacement

TBM vote was horrible then and is horrible now. It's not OMGUS if you really do suck. Way to comment on what's happening in the thread.

bgg1996 (Lynched):

Pappums Rat, Llamarble,

Krazy,

Xine,

Neruz,

GreyICE, Hiraki,

Krazy (2):

DeathRowKitty,

Nathanael,
GreyICE (1): TheButtonmen,
Llamarble (1): Mute,

DAY 2

Krazy (1):

Llamarble, GreyICE,
Hiraki (1): Nathanael,
Xine (0): Pappums Rat,
Llamarble (1): Mute,

Krazy (4):

Llamarble, GreyICE,

Neruz,

Hiraki,
Hiraki (1): Nathanael,
Llamarble (1): Mute,
GreyICE (1):

Krazy,

Krazy (4):

Llamarble, GreyICE,

Neruz

, Hiraki,
GreyICE (3): Krazy, TheButtonmen, Nathanael,
Llamarble (1): Mute,

Fuck it, day 2 isn't a real voting day. Lets just do lynch.

Krazy (6)

: Llamarble, GreyICE,

Neruz,

Hiraki, Pappums Rat,

Xine,

GreyICE (3):

Krazy,

TheButtonmen, Nathanael,
Llamarble (1): Mute,

Notes:

MUTE VOTED KRAZY. Not FOS, voted. Confirmed town told him to pick vote up. He moved it to #2. Scum would either continue the bus to end discussion early, or do nothing with vote. He found a secondary candidate and parked vote on it.

CONCLUSIONS:
Mute is town
Xine is so scum. Look at where she is everywhere. SCUM SCUM SCUMBOLINA
For Llamarble to be scum, Krazy'd have to hop on the wagon right next to his buddy. TBF he's that bad at it, they picked a good member to throw away for that gambit (though this town impresses me. Was not betting money on me not being the lynch). I need to read thread, but Marble will react BADLY to the buddy doing that.
Nath is town for many reasons.
TBM is very questionable still.
Hiraki is less town than I think.
Pappums is town.

[GreyICE]

@ Mod: Please fix spoiler tags, I need some of the "box to reveal" ones, not the "blackout" ones.

[GreyICE]

@Nath: Dude reread day 2. Mute voted for Krazy, then when told by CONFIRMED TOWN that the vote was bad because Krazy could shortcut discussion with a selfhammer moved it to suspect #2. That's fucking 900% town.

[GreyICE]

Oh balls.

This just kinda solves itself doesn't it.

Llamarble, case on Xine being town.

YESTERDAY

[GreyICE]

Please make sure to include your top scum reads, we need more confirmed town.

[GreyICE]

Huh. Rat looks much worse in ISO.

KNEW a speedlynch was bad today.

[GreyICE]

Huh, we have about a week left and should be moving things along more than we are. We really need MME and Pappums' replacement to get in here and talk.

Town:
Llama
Nathanael
GreyICE

Likely town:
TBM
Xine

Possible scum
Mute

One of these is probably scum with Pappums:
Hiraki
MME

Scum:
Pappums

Wut

[GreyICE]

Haha

Hahahaha

Okay.

Now we need the input

From the most chronically useless person

Ever

TBM: Thoughts on Llamarble, Hiraki, and Mute.

NOW

[GreyICE]

And if the thought of one person in LyLo chills my flesh.

It's YOU, buttons.

[GreyICE]

Oh fuck it.

Marble is pretty obvious. Conservative player, always has been, seems he will be.

This strategy is so conventional it has his fingerprints all over it. He starts out day 2 voting Krazy. It was supposed to go pretty well. Krazy claims cop, supposed to get the town to hate me.

'cept that I have the work order prepared on what to do for eventualities, and Neruz and co are firing on all thrusters.

If my scum reads were 100% wrong they would have just shot me yesterday, and used them to try and move the town in that direction.

If they were 100% right, they'd have shot me as too dangerous to live.

Marble was supposed to keep Xine alive today. Xine was supposed to act town. 'cept she has no idea how to do that, and today has been worse than usual.

Vote: Xine

Of the two. Llamarble would hesitate to bus the Roleblocker. But be quicker to bus a goon.

And yes. I want the roleblocker DEAD. This is. Fucking. Infuriating.

Buttons. OMFG LOL

If the game is going on once those two are dead (and I strongly doubt it will), I fully, 100% endorse your lynch.

[GreyICE]

Nath:

TL;DR VERSION: (READ THIS TO SAVE PRECIOUS TIME)

Xine has no fucking clue what she's talking about, Bgg needs to work on his quoting abilities, but gets points for being valiant enough to try to make a decent post, and Neruz is still town.

I'd say that if Xine flips scum this near clears Hiraki. In fact his response to the entire Neruz/Xine wagon was fairly good.

But basically mid day 1 he was arguing:

Neruz is town (known fact)
Bgg has town points (he was town)
Xine has no clue what she's talking about (aka scum points)

Defending two town and attacking one scum is quite the position for a scum team member to take.

I fail to see how her vote was justified. Extremely so since she misrepped Neruz calling you town.

I could be scum with Neruz. Here's the problem. At this point, the only real case that you've made on Neruz has fallen completely. I dare you to get a wagon with your contradictions. No one has any reason, so I see, to call me scum, or has admitted it. Btw, I don't care about Lurking because it's null, unless someone is under pressure.

Let me make this clear. Xine's posting rate became slower when she was accused. The problem was the drastic change. I don't care about comparisons. Just because other people have lurked and flaked, doesn't mean that I should vote them for that alone. Like Meta, lurking is the icing of the cake. You can't make a good case based off of someone lurking.

Lurker lynches are often helpful to the town, but also very useful for scum (at the end of the day, if you lynch someone like MME and they flip town, you get few reads - the town is down a two members, and everyone voted for them for similar reasons (we can't read them, they don't post). The time for lurker lynches is when you're fishing for reads, can't find clear connections, and have a comfortable margin. Something like 6 town, 1 scum, where lynching an unreadable lurker is good times.

He made a very clear distinction between the lurkers/flakers, and scummy behavior. He is right, btw. Lurking under pressure is a scumtell. One of the best ways to make a wagon go away, especially on day 1, is to wait it out and pray someone does something scummier.

Bgg was definitely that something scummier. I thought he might flip town, but there's a point where the "too scummy to be scum" defense becomes "tying my hands together."

Pappums just had the fortune to replace into a slot I had somewhat of a town read on, and I have somewhat of a town read on him. His reason for suspecting marble was bad - I note I was quite terrible in the game he mentioned, while marble cleaned up. A role reversal here simply means that some games are easier for some people than others.

No, marble earns his own post. So does Xine.

[GreyICE]

Also his reason for voting for Krazy over me yesterday. While it's a bit bad to do analysis based on actions that interact with you (as they're inevitably biased) a cop claim is a cop claim, and it was fairly binary.

His reasons for voting for Krazy over me were much more ill-defined. If he were scum bussing town, I feel he'd make more of a production out of it. Several people (Neruz included) did. Neruz obviously earns infinity town points by flipping town. But others definitely made much more of a production out of his vote, and I happen to feel one of them is scum. Hiraki, on the other hand, had no preprepared reasoning, but simply voted what he felt. Ironically, the lack of show to earn himself town points earns him vast town points in my book. To bus your own scumteam member and not even attempt to get much of a rep as a scumhunter, as a townie, as anything out of it?

I just don't see it.

Hiraki either would have stuck to his guns, or tried to earn some town points out of it, but the only thing he did was push his tunnel on Mute, a tunnel I just don't really see.

More flips gives us a lot more information, and Xine gives us TONS of information since she's had some of the most attention on her all game. Hiraki just reads townie trying to figure out the game, to me.

[GreyICE]

Now marble. Oh marble.

I think this sequence of posts more or less illustrates the issue:

Xine (counterwagons onto bgg after she gets to L-2 in rvs, insufficient scumhunting, vote posts that feel justificationy, now is wagoning onto Neruz, has expressed willingness to hammer GreyIce while he was helping her to lynch bgg whom she supposedly believed to be scum)

Greedling

(2 posts all day and neither of them good...)

VOTE: Xine

How many days do we have left? Wait the deadline is tomorrow or the day after??
I was about to revote bgg but we can't do that.

THE DEADLINE IS REALLY SOON

More Xine votes then please, I guess. Unless we get the extension on Greedling replacement (he has posted twice the whole game after all).

And let's not lynch Neruz because he's town, okay?

Now normally pushing a wagon I think is scum over a wagon I know is town would not be a scumtell. But the Neruz wagon was a very special monster:

Neruz (5): [Redacted], Ant_to_the_max, Nathanael, Xine, bgg1996,
Xine (5): Greedling, GreyICE, Hiraki, Neruz, Llamarble,

To this day, looking at the Neruz wagon makes me wince. Indeed, about 3 posts after that, TBM (aka Redacted) unvoted, and the entire wagon started to fall apart. The simple fact of the matter is, at the time, Greedling was an obvious flake, so was not going to last minute switch to Neruz. That means if Marble voted Neruz, and then Xine got lynched and flipped scum, here's where the scumteam was sitting:

1) Dead
2) An obvious flaker who could be replaced by anyone
3) The L-1 vote on the town wagon Day 1 running against the scum wagon.

In other words, a Xine lynch would have killed the team if Marble was the L-1 on Neruz.

The next two are worth looking at:

Isn't the deadline in like 9 hours?
If we have until replacements arrive then I'm going back to bgg. He's both the most likely player to be scum and the one who hurts us least if we lynch him and he flips town (particularly accounting for the VT claim). His recent behavior has me way more convinced than I was earlier; it was at least somewhat hard to tell if he was faking or not then. Now he's confirmed for us that he was. Saying he's all "excited to be actively scumhunting now" just feels so much more like trying to look town than like actually playing to the town wincondition. His scumhunting so far consists of attacking Neruz for "being willing to vote someone he knows to be town," which obviously isn't the game situation. His voting record is the horrible L-2 quicklynch seeking vote on Xine which he followed up by wifomavalancheing when called out for it. That and voting Neruz, whose wagon looks pretty scummy to me.

A pretty clear exit port from the Xine wagon.

Day 2 he has a newbie town read on Xine. Day three though:

Are you talking about my post 2.5 weeks ago? I've read more since then.
Pappums could be town. I'm kind of confused by this game. I think the scum aren't posting much and I need MME's replacement to contribute.
Maybe Xine really is scum and my pants are on my head.
But I haven't been able to read Xine assuming she's scum and come out with "this makes sense."

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Hahaha
I finally read Xine as scum and made it stick in my brain.
In addition to stuff everyone's mentioned, when Krazy shows up and sees Xine is something of a major wagon, he defends her.
Xine gets on the bgg wagon D1 when Krazy & bgg are even.

So they both acted to prevent each others' lynches D1.

Vote: Xine

Gap between them? 0.21 nanoseconds.

Yes, this is mostly based on general thread behavior and interactions with Xine, but Xine I'm feeling fairly certain about.

As marble said (and must have watched) they indirectly protected each other day 1. Look at Krazy: He straight up chainsawed to stop Xine from being lynched most of the day.

[GreyICE]

So the TLDR of that wall?

If Xine is scum, lynch Llamarble and if the game doesn't end lynch TBM. See what happens then.

[GreyICE]

...Oh screw it.

Xine actually reads more town to me atm than TBM or Llamarble.

I still think she's scum, but Llamarble's decision to white knight until under pressure, forget about his "VOTE XINE GOGOGOGO on day 1," his posts after, where he 'suddenly remembers' things, his herp derping about the entire thing...

Oh.

And one person in the entire thread has suggested that me and Krazy were scum together. At all.

I'm still alive and I'm town. As I said before, if my reads were entirely wrong, they'd shoot me and use me to try and push mislynches. If my reads were 100% dead on, they'd shoot me and pray that everyone goes "oh, they shot the doctor."

Unvote

Vote: Llamarble

These just feel like your sorts of shots.

[GreyICE]

DUDE

FINE

I PICK BOTH

CAN I HAVE BOTH

I WANT TO LYNCH MARBLE NOW. THOSE LAST FEW POSTS WERE SO BAD

AND DAY 2 WAS LIKE "WELL I'LL START BY BUSSING THEN MOVE OVER ONCE THE COP CLAIM PICKS UP STEAM."

HALF OF THE REST WAS CHEEKY AS SHIT.

ALSO XINE NEEDS TO DIE TOO

[GreyICE]

Really. Marble could just be white knighting. I think he's defending a scumteam member, but he's certainly not town.

Xine

might

be really new town. In like some alternate universe in vega 6. Though it's sad to say the ONLY way he could have gotten a town read off her is if she wasn't in the quicktopic.

[GreyICE]

'Cause you wanted to sell me something with that. I dunno what, but you did. And I have no clue why the bullet refuses to hit me.

Still. Watch me be hypocritical. That explanation was solid, made sense, and was full of motive. And I'm waffling here too. Plus, Xine flip tells us much about this thread.

Vote:Xine

[GreyICE]

Xine.

1) Because a PGO according to NAR will kill the roleblocker. So if they were throwing away a scum power role to test my claim, it was held by a player who was not long for this world. Now that I know Exe doesn't do things that way, this is completely invalid.

2) I'll never do a VCA with an assumption of my own alignment after I saw scum do that to push us around once. Only time I've agreed with it was Hoopla's use of it, and she was a confirmed-town Mason while doing so (conf. town is conf. town, and I know that I am not that). I use VCAs to draw conclusions, but I'm not going to attempt to bias anyone's with things that are unknown facts.

I'll highlight people's name in colors, when I want to call them out. Red is for scum, green for town (unless mod stole my colors).

3) Where I'm sitting? 100%. Where the scum is sitting? Has to be pretty uncomfortable since I clearly DID target the kill N1, and they have no reason to doubt N2. Where the town is sitting? I dunno. I dun care. I think it's pretty clear I did N1, but for N2, I'm fucking pissed but I'm not going to make a point of it.

4) Yep. I stand by that. If the town distrusts me, lynch me the day before LyLo. It's the solution if this was a scum gambit. I have no idea why I'd run a gambit where I told Krazy to claim cop against me on the hope the town would lynch him - because as a claimed cop in a town with known no doctor, he'd be dead. And that gambit involved us both claiming town power roles vulnerable to counterclaim (and mine was a dozen times more likely to be counterclaimed than his). But if you really want to, do it. I have no desire to live to endgame, i want to get the damn scum team.

Also, "I intentionally played like a VI to gather information" is quite the defense. Did you manage to gather any information this way? Or was this very subtle plot way too subtle for us? Also, what was your plan if you were lynched day 1? Hope the town used your wagon to determine that people voting people who are acting scummy are probably... what? Players? It's like the bgg wagon - even as a counterwagon to a scum wagon it tells us much less than it should because bgg's play was so amazingly bad.

Oh I don't even care. Gimme some reads if you want, this is just scum.

[GreyICE]

Claim: "Town" Hider

Hid behind: DRK on Night 1
Hid behind: Neruz on Night 2

[GreyICE]

Lol, apparently I'm going to have to tune down the sarcasm.

[GreyICE]

Except that I wouldn't be tracked to my intended target.

AS I WAS ROLEBLOCKED

If anyone tracked me to the nk, claim now, lynch me, then lynch the claimed tracker when I flip. Me getting two different scum lynched by fakeclaiming would be hysterical.

This is scumflail.

[GreyICE]

My god I hope you're the damn roleblocker. Hiraki being guaranteed to survive would make my day so much better.

[GreyICE]

Marble-scum is heavily based on Xine scum.

Xine scum is heavily based on her gameplay.

[GreyICE]

TheButtonMen

[Redacted]

I like the way he posts, though it wasn't always right. His case on Neruz was good and had some serious scummy things in it, which is why the wagon gained so much momentum. It was a wonderful wagon for scum to hop on and I will eat my hat if there isn't at least one scum on that wagon. But back to TBM, he defended Krazy very hard. The way he posted was good, he really backed up why GreyICE was the scum. Especially this I like:

@People voting Krazy: Explain to me why scum would bother to trade a member of the scum team in a gambit just to implicate GreyICE? If they were that afraid of him they could just shoot him. Are we to assume the scum are pants on head retarded because nobody has yet to give an explanation other then that?

It is a very good point he brings up. The mafia could also have killed and RBed ICE at the same time, barring to fake a guilty on him. Too bad he was wrong though. He brings up good points and has no connection with Krazy.

Townie

Dammit.

What if I'm wrong about Xine and it's Conspiracy(Pappums)/TBM?

TBM has been over there hammering MME for not posting when Pappums posted oh, about as much, and that description of play is all sorts of wrong.

But back to TBM, he defended Krazy very hard

He brings up good points and has no connection with Krazy.

Hahaha.

Oh screw it.

That's just awful.

Lynch order
Xine (if scum)> Llamarble
Xine (if town)> TBM (if scum)> Conspiracy
Xine (if town)> TBM (if town)> ... ?

[GreyICE]

Xine (4): Hiraki, GreyICE, ConSpiracy,
My Milked Eek (2): Xine, TheButtonmen,

Is this correct?

[GreyICE]

Paupam/ConS is obv. town though, so no need to worry about that.

Dude. "wow he just defended krazy like he'll but I just can't find any connection between him and crazy, what with buttons barely bothering to mention krazy at all" like lol no.

If TBM is scum - and that's far more likely than marbs if xine is town somehow, then con is definitely #3

[GreyICE]

As for marbs town/scum lists those are fairly null flavored.

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I think Buttons is reading the game, I guess.

But things like Xine, Conspiracy seem to slide gracelessly past him, like ships in the night. This isn't even a tunnel. This is a wet blanket over his head.

Buttons, commentary on what's going on right now, and some votes that do important things would be nice.

Xine - town or scum, and why?

Conspiracy - Impressions? You reamed MME pretty hard for lurk/flaking, that slot hasn't been THAT much better until now.

Life, the universe, and everything - what's up with that?

[GreyICE]

The rage is at an ebb and flow.

Mute rage has faded.

Nath.
Buttons

Are you the sort of fuckers that like tearing wings off flies and watching them twitch forever before they die?

WHY WAS THIS GAME ONGOING FOREVER AND FIVE DAYS WITH TOWN CROSSVOTING IN LYLO?

[GreyICE]

It's called a quickhammer. Do you want an instruction manual?

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I was seriously hoping that they'd lynch Nath and then Marble would track mute for giggles and be like... durrr... what? when he didn't track to Conspiracy.

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Mute... I've been part of town killing tunnels before. So...

You were in one. They're bad. You never seriously considered you were wrong or reevaluated the game.

I died when I said "lynch buttons tomorrow." They could keep me alive indefinitely, so... I say "Lynch buttons" and I die? That should be all sorts of warning bells.

Nonstandard action resolution was also kinda a bitch. Buttons would have been confirmed scum had scumteam been forced to play as standard.

[GreyICE]

Haha, I even gave them an instruction manual...
And they wouldn't even have needed to QH. Buttons could just have voted Mute or Nath could have voted me anytime.
Instead they voted each other for some reason and let Mute and I make like 50 posts each.

I definitely would have tracked Mute, that actually could have won it for town... heh.

I know. I read you as not really believing Mute = scum and wanting this thing over for about 3 days now

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And you didn't coordinate a time in the QT when you'd both be on?

Like '6PM tuesdays and thursdays, make some sort of brief post to show you're there and I'll vote?'

This was literally torturing the town.

[GreyICE]

What was the action-funny that would have confirmed TBMscum?

You tracked buttons
Nath Roleblocked me
Nath killed Neruz

[GreyICE]

Meh not really. The "VLA until after deadline" was so bad.

Speaking of VLAs, Buttons, I autovote you on #2, #3 if I'm feeling nice next game with you.

That vote doesn't leave until a moderator confirms you town.

P.P.S. YEAH. Marble was more or less confirmed town because of setup spec since you KNEW there was a RB

[GreyICE]

Certain people make it onto a list where if they're not posting
They won't be advancing their win conditions
Because I kill em.

So far it's you and saporovirus.

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and Nobody Special obv

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What the hell is with not revealing the scum QT? Pulling a ReaperCharlie here TBM?

[GreyICE]

Oh lawd, is there info about an ongoing in there?

Mind posting it when that expires?

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It's inspired me to start to work on this for my mini normal:
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id ... 6_PbBw2Xgq

[GreyICE]

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id ... l6_PbBw2Xg

Okay, this one works for me. It's being published, so theoretically anyone can see it...

(Google documents - absolutely great, except when its not)

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I so really, really, really wanna read it

Fair warning: Any game I moderate will have the rules that all QTs are released on game end.