Mini 1642: The Burning (GAME OVER FLAMES HAVE ENGULFED TOWN)

[Elbirn]

VOTE: Eektor

Not lynching you last game was my biggest regret. Time to rectify that.

qft

VOTE: Eektor

Hai gaiz :3

[Elbirn]

The guy took a non-serious statement out of context and used it as basis for a wagon.

And @Fish questioning Monkey for the same thing.

What makes you think the statement was not serious? If Acryon truly goes out of his way to not vote for Boonskie, or "try his best not to" (whatever that means), could that not be detrimental to town? I don't see town motivation in buddying someone from the get go and protecting them.

[Elbirn]

That's fine. Any thoughts on what I just said though? What indicates that Acryon was not serious? If you can tell me that, then okay. If he *is* serious, him protecting Boon = how can this be anything but bad?

[Elbirn]

Boon is a VI who does stupid shit early in the game. We, acryon and I, just played a game with Boon where he quick hammered on day 1 (hit scum, but that's beside the point) before a claim was made, or a reads list was revealed and became mislynch bait with a fucking bullet until he was mislynched right before mylo. Acryon is saying, imo, that he is going to take Boon with a grain on salt this game. Unless he is scum, then he would lynch him.

I've modded a game Boon was in, knew he was town and still wanted him dead. Boon is right that eventually I will push him. He is just at that level of play where he should probably die day 2 or 3 by our votes because scum will not kill him.

Fair enough.

In other news, I don't like how Monkey was dodging Fish's questions. Fish's methods might not have been the best, but Monkey's reactions are a bit off.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: MonkeyMan

[Elbirn]

I do want to FoS on Elbirn as his reason for a vote on Monkey seemed weak and there is something off about his posts.

I didn't like Monkey's responses, and I haven't really got much to go off of. *shrug* What do you see as being off about my posts? I am distracted by one other game I'm playing, so it might be that, but I'd like to hear what your thoughts are.

[Elbirn]

Sup, I'm here to awkwardly replace in like a jerk.

Hai.

I do want to FoS on Elbirn as his reason for a vote on Monkey seemed weak and there is something off about his posts.

I didn't like Monkey's responses, and I haven't really got much to go off of. *shrug* What do you see as being off about my posts? I am distracted by one other game I'm playing, so it might be that, but I'd like to hear what your thoughts are.

Your post 68 in response to 67. It just sounds like you are trying to be cool, shrugging off the accusation, just like you did with the last post. You pop in when people mention you but haven't really been around in between. I figured when I FoS'd you would come on and talk about it. Do you have any thoughts on the game besides you don't like Monkey's responses?

Hm. Thoughts.

12 I feel is null. I don't see how not wanting to RVS = scummy. It's not entirely useful far as I can tell, it's just to start discussion. Once that purpose has been served, we can play. It's worth noting that this same player got us out of RVS by the end of page 1, by casting the first serious vote. Granted that was unfounded OMGUS... But I'm under the impression that being in RVS for too long would be detrimental to town.

16 I disagree with Acryon "promising" not to lynch Boon. Yes yes I know, this was explained. I still don't like it. I could toy with the notion that this was scum promising not to bus, but I'd be flinging unfounded accusations at that point. If one of them flips scum this might be worth revisiting?

32 OMGUS?

34 FormerFish begins his questioning of Monkey; Monkey proceeds to question dodge a few times, which I don't like.

66 through 68. I ask a question, I get an "I think you're scum", it didn't answer my question so I repeated it. You say it's acting like I'm trying to shrug it off and play it cool, but really I was just looking to discuss a point and I felt like *I* got shrugged off.

86 Acryon defending Boon again huh?

93 Copper not noticing that Radiant is IC is a null tell to me. Victor And Cooper arguing afterwards might well be a townfight.

And in direct response to your 141. I don't see how my activity is related to others accusing me...But I will say that you asked me a question, leading me to answer, leading to me getting more involved in the game. I feel some townie motivation from you questioning me, and there are a few instances where you try to stimulate discussion with others. I don't townread you, but I like what you've done so far.

That pretty much sums up my thoughts so far.

[Elbirn]

@Elbirn I don't like when people dodge questions too, but do you see that as scum motivated or town? I can see the buddying of acryon with boon, but right now i'm town reading acryon with a null on boon, so I don't think much of it. Also my OMGUS on you was partially because I thought you might have stolen my vote. What do you think of Victor so far?

Well I don't really see a town motivation for avoiding discussion. I can understand that there are, in some situations, some players who as town like to hold cards to their chest, or don't play as transparently as others, but if I ask someone a question and they ignore me, my first thought isn't "oooh this guys got a plan", it's "What is he hiding from us, and why would he do that?" And the answer to both of those questions is "Maybe he's scum." It especially doesn't make sense to me on Page 2 of Day 1, there's no way there's some overarching plan of his that he's fulfilling by dodging the most basic of questions.

Why do you townread Acryon? I don't scumread him, hell I feel fairly null on both, but I do feel he's buddying Boon.

What do you mean by you thought I "stole your vote"? Are you talking about that typo in the VC?

Honestly I think Victor has some interesting points, and I don't know why he's either dismissed or scumread for them. I agree with him on the whole promise-not-to-lynch thing with Acryon + Boon. 95 & 99 is an important point in his argument with Copper that I feel is either misrepresented or disregarded; yes, we get it Copper, Radiantbells is the IC. What did you townread her (him? female avatar going with her until corrected) for? If you completely missed the post stating that she was IC, then you must have read in to some other posts of hers and made a determination that she was town. If you can't tell us what those posts were, then you're just townreading someone without reason, and that might be buddying, or it might be pretending to have reads when you don't, and when you think about it, it sounds like crap. Coppers argument that "I wouldn't do X as scum because I'm 2legit2quit" is also bullshit. If you really are good, you'll make scumplays that no one with knowledge of your meta would expect. That's how WIFOM works. 152 156 = I like these.

I'm about to get something to eat, but I'll be back, I'll take a closer look at the Copper side of the argument, ISO him, and see if I can get a read out of that as well. But to answer your question Eektor, thus far Victor's okay in my book.

Also Fish and Boon are both town. Monkey is scum.

Hm. A question for you Acryon, why do you townread Boon? You give some reasoning in 88, but it feels thin. You say he plays like he did in his other games with you. How can you determine that when he hasn't provided enough content to analyze his playstyle? 11 posts with barely any content each, and prod dodging? Even less posts made at the time you made the above post. That doesn't seem to be enough to be indicative of playstyle nor towniness.

[Elbirn]

I still don't see how he qualifies for a "Town-read", which to my understanding means "I believe this person is town", nor do I see how he qualifies for a "Town-lean", which to my understanding means "This person might possibly be town". What I WILL accept is your statement that he's not a person worth pursuing at this stage, because from my perspective he has done nothing alignment indicative either way so far, and we have better things to do than pursue nullreads. I'd like if we get pressure him into being a more active participant so we can get a read on him however, his lurkiness isn't helpful to anyone.

[Elbirn]

@Elbirn
The lurking accusation is unfounded.

The only person who's contributed less content to this game is SiX. We're only on the 3rd day of D1, so it's not something to be overly concerned with, but the fact of the matter is he is largely absent from this game.

[Elbirn]

95 & 99 is an important point in his (VDA's) argument with Copper that I feel is either misrepresented or disregarded; yes, we get it Copper, Radiantbells is the IC. What did you townread her (him? female avatar going with her until corrected) for? If you completely missed the post stating that she was IC, then you must have read in to some other posts of hers and made a determination that she was town. If you can't tell us what those posts were, then you're just townreading someone without reason, and that might be buddying, or it might be pretending to have reads when you don't, and when you think about it, it sounds like crap. Coppers argument that "I wouldn't do X as scum because I'm 2legit2quit" is also bullshit. If you really are good, you'll make scumplays that no one with knowledge of your meta would expect. That's how WIFOM works.

Any thoughts, Cooper?

[Elbirn]

@Elbirn

Any thoughts, Cooper?

I think you are likely buddies, you just switched from a tvt to a tvs on us and used arguments that were already present in the thread when you made your first read, care to justify why you changed your mind? Possibly because the association now is already there after I mentioend it.

I already said why I was leaning town on Radiant at the time, her vote on Victor out of RVS made a lot of sense to me because I also saw that as possibly scum indicative, particularly because I just finished a game with House as a scumbuddy and he often used this kind of absolute reads to justify himself.

Why are you painting it as if I never said where I got my misterious read on Radiant, when nothing in my ISO supports that?

Glossing over the thread the first time around, the arguments between you and VDA looked like pointless rabblerousing noise that I ignored at the time. And for the most part it was, seeing as a lot of your side of that argument was crap and misrepping what Victor said. When prompted to read in depth, I saw some things I didn't like.

I don't see how that's a good reason to townread. Just because you agree with someone on a point doesn't mean someone they are town, and I don't see how ONE post is enough to suffice for a townread.

[Elbirn]

@Elbirn
I am not buying any of that, if you can kindly tell me who the third is?

The third what? Did I not answer all of your questions?

[Elbirn]

I don't like the big walls of fluff so early in the game, also he was leaning scum on monkey, the easiest person to wagon at the time, and now is on to Copper? Hmm...me no likey. No no no likey.

What's wrong with voting Copper? I'm about to do it, am I scum too?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Copper223

[Elbirn]

Oh, and what is he "on to"? Like he's a criminal about to be caught, and we're "on to him"?

inb4 Acryon, Boonskiies, and Copper223 scumteam.

[Elbirn]

Yeah, humor me, because I've got a feeling all you like is that I unvoted you.

[Elbirn]

No, it's a bad vote regardless because the reason for it is terrible, plus you are already 50% there for sure and

given how hard both Victor and Elbirn are trying to discredit the idea they are scum together

(why would you need to do so as town, I would like my fellow townies to ask themselves) I'd say it's above 75% even by your wacky metric.

This literally never happened. You just say things, and then confirmation bias it with yourself, and then lie about what happened. You're like a schizophrenic old man talking to himself in the mirror, and the more you talk, the happier I am with my vote on you.

You don't play well under pressure do you?

[Elbirn]

Weekend prod dodge, I'll post later, reread, if anyone's asked questions of me I'll answer them.

[Elbirn]

@Elbirn According to your definitions I don't town read acryon, I'm leaning town on him. Overall his posts seem town to me. The buddying with boon seems suspicious but I can see his hesistance to lynch boon when he mislynched him twice before. I'm curious where you got the acryon/boon/copper scum team. I understand the link between acryon and boon but not either one of them with copper.

I guess I don't see a link between Copper and Acryon, but between Copper and Boon there seems to be defending and voting together. So..Idk. It's like a chainlink, Acryon --> Boon --> Copper. It's a stretch but if one of them flipped scum I'd put the other two under a magnifying glass.

Many people did not respond to my last request.

Please, everyone, lmk how you feel about:

SiX
Victor
Copper
Futan

I want to reread everything before I respond in depth, but my gut says that Victor is playing like he did in my last game with him, where he was town. And my vote on Copper should show how I feel about him. SiX and Futan = I feel like these people are largely absent, or I at least haven't noticed them, and I'll need that reread first. Next post I will have a more thorough answer RC.

[Elbirn]

If you look at my posting meta, you'll see that I don't wall post, so just because someone is wallposting doesn't mean I think they are more town.

...Okay. But what made you decide to vote for who I was voting for? Was it entirely because you townread me? Have you done any analysis on Copper yourself? All I can recall you saying at the time was "Elbirn seems confident". The only thing I like about any of that is that you spelled my name right, a feat that no one else can manage apparently.

[Elbirn]

@Elbirn That's not fair. I don't believe I misspelled your name once. Actually I think more people have been calling copper cooper than misspelling your name.

Looking back you appear to be correct, it must have been my other game where everyone keeps calling me Elbin. I think Futan called me Eldrin or Eldin or something, it doesn't matter or anything just yeah. I wasn't trying to sound like a dick, I just remember at the time that happened Copper or someone called me something else, Monkey got it right and I had appreciated it xP Everyone calling copper "cooper" bothers my ocd as well, ha.

What happened to the game title? I thought we were playing 1640 O.o

We were, at least according to the OP. Huh.

Seriously, what's with the walls of quotes and text? Feels scummy. Conciseness is townie.

If I could vig someone ? mmm probably be Copper but that's due to current wall of texts and previous game meta more than anything. I'll think about this over a beer and come back to you.

Can either of you give me one good reason why posting lots of content is scummy? Because quite frankly I am baffled that you would discredit two people for talking too much, in a game about talking. Same question goes to Monkeyman who nearly bragged about not reading long posts. Seriously what.

[Elbirn]

That's a lot of research to vote somebody over. We've had some replacements iirc so I am going to need to reiso. Don't expect anything in the next hour.

While you're doing your research, care to answer my question?

...Okay. But what made you decide to vote for who I was voting for? Was it entirely because you townread me? Have you done any analysis on Copper yourself? All I can recall you saying at the time was "Elbirn seems confident".

[Elbirn]

If you look at my posting meta, you'll see that I don't wall post, so just because someone is wallposting doesn't mean I think they are more town.

...Okay. But what made you decide to vote for who I was voting for? Was it entirely because you townread me? Have you done any analysis on Copper yourself? All I can recall you saying at the time was "Elbirn seems confident". The only thing I like about any of that is that you spelled my name right, a feat that no one else can manage apparently.

Yes, I will sheep on a strong townread, especially on day 1.

And why do you have a strong townread on me? What have I done to earn your trust?

[Elbirn]

So after Copper/Victor gets lynched and that debacle gets put to bed, can we get rid of one of the VI's around here? I'm thinking Monkey. Lately I'm feeling like Boon is just Boon, whereas my gut says Monkey is badscum.

[Elbirn]

If the two of you refer to yourselves in the 3rd person in an attempt to cause disorder and confusion again, I will fully support wasting two days to policy lynch you both. Seriously that hurt my head.

[Elbirn]

IF the information gets across, which it almost didn't. I had no idea what was being discussed for a moment there xD

That's the point though, Monkey is sheeping me for no reason and I find it bothersome. Also Fishy was totes being sarcastic.

@Fish, Monkey and Boon's recent back and forth

[Elbirn]

Yeesh.

Riveting commentary.

Am I the only one who reads the Victor/Copper argument as Copper making fallacious arguments and Victor then disproving them, and yet somehow Victor is regarded as more scum than Copper? Really if Victor flips scum I'll eat my hat.

[Elbirn]

Hey guys, I've been having trouble getting my head in this game, but I've been doing some reading and I'd like to bring up a few points.

Read posts 365 through and including 367, that little exchange there. The way Copper gets genuinely pissed at Cheeto. I feel like if they were scumbuddies, there'd be...Some kind of patience, or understanding there. I don't know exactly what I'm trying to say, what the right word is. But the point is, it feels like the interaction doesn't come from two scumbuddies. This would seem to imply that either one of them is scum but not the other, or they are both town.

Reading further back, same thing happens when he questions VDA who clearly gets frustrated. (Around 287)

Cheeto seems to question/suspect both of them to some extent, but also defends them, while having his vote on neither? It just seems weird. Like he's in a position to vote for either if he wants to. Acryon and Toon have done the same thing by declaring a willingness to vote for either, based on a belief that they may be double bussing scum.

Thoughts?

[Elbirn]

@Eektor
MonkeyMan576 - 4 (acryon, Formerfish, Elbirn, RadiantCowbells)
MonkeyMan576 - 3 (eektor, Cheetory6, Futan)

If you think Victor and I are town, only Boon, SiX and Toon haven't joined his wagon yet, how does this fit with your scumteam?

Only reason I hadn't joined this wagon is because it seemed way too opportunistic as scum, specifically the first time he had the wagon. This second wagon is peculiar to me, though. I actually kind of find Monkey scummier now, yet Acryon/Fish/Elbirn didn't seem to anymore. There could be a case of an early bussing to show a certain kind of association between each other, but I can't really tell which one would be scum buddies with Monkey. I'm leaning more Fishy/Elbirn on that. This will be something we'll have to look more into as more information is revealed.

Anywhosies, it's just a theory. My top scum reads are Victor > Toon, with a little bit of Monkey.

Where did you get that impression from? I'm pretty sure I've only had negative things to say about Monkey.

[Elbirn]

I can get behind a monkey lynch, but I don't know if it's my preferred play. Then again time is running out..

[Elbirn]

You know what? Fuck it.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Monkeyman576

[Elbirn]

Well, lynching me would be a mistake, I don't know what you want from me.

Elbirn and formerfish strike me as the type of people that like to pressure vote and reaction vote, so it doesn't really bother me. I know I'm town and I'm not the best lynch today.

This is a possible deadline lynch, I can assure you this is not a reaction test,

I'd like your updated reads.

[Elbirn]

I like those reads a lot Boon, I'm having second thoughts on Monkey as well because this time around the wagon on him looks pretty town to me.

What does this mean? You're saying that the people on his wagon (at the time that you made this post, they were Eektor, Cheetory, and Futan) you townread? And that lends his wagon more credibility?

[Elbirn]

Your reads list is interesting. What makes you think both Victor and Copper are scum?

[Elbirn]

So you approve of a wagon because of the people on it, because you think they're town. why does you thinking they are town mean that they are right? Do you have your own reasoning for thinking monkey is scum?

[Elbirn]

So I'm a little confused by your reasoning, like not that you guys aren't clear but more in that I just need to process it. What I want to know is, and I'm sure you've already said this, but. Considering these recent developments. Will lynching victor give us more info than flipping monkey? Do you really think a vic scum flip clears ALL of those people?

[Elbirn]

This is the issue, we all seem to support lynching any one of 3 people. Monkey seems like scum. The events surrounding the wagon on him are intriguing. I didn't think vic would flip scum but I'm willing to lynch him. Toon certainly seems like he could have been bussing but I feel that's hard to say without a victor flip.

Tldr I'd be okay lynching victor. Also My vote on monkey was serious but perhaps uninformed, and now I'm going to pretend it was just a reaction test for everyone else. Shhh. Also am on phone so sorry if wording is stilted or weird

[Elbirn]

...why wouldn't town elbirn want as many town clears as possible? Literally what?

[Elbirn]

Can I hammer victor? I wanna hammer victor. Victor claim pleaz.

[Elbirn]

And copper, once again your reasoning is shitty and reaching. I want town clears. That is helpful to town. Like, shit dude. I don't know that victor will flip scum, if he does great, and if him flipping also clears several people than that's even better than flipping someone else who is scum.

[Elbirn]

I'm still on my phone and I feel like I need to reread him. But I think if victor flips scum that coppers theory that he (toon) is bussing scum makes sense. So there's that.

[Elbirn]

Well then.

Any objections? Last words from vic?

[Elbirn]

Elbirn, Toon and Acryon probably have the best chance of flipping scum.

Toon certainly seems like he could have been bussing but I feel that's hard to say without a victor flip.

Look how gross and soft that interaction is. LOOK AT IT. IT'S DIGUSTING. Feels like he's trying to set up Toon as only being scum if Victor is. Wouldn't be surprised if they're scummates.

Elbirn has also jumped from Copper, to Monkey, to Victor. I feel like he just wants a lynch and doesn't care who it is.
VOTE: Elbirn
SOMEONE GIVE ME A GOOD REASON WHY WE'RE NOT LYNCHING THIS VS SOMEONE WHO'S JUST ABRASIVE/TUNNELLY WHICH FEELS MORE PLAYSTYLE BASED THAN ANYTHING.

We have two days left, you're damn right I want blood. Why is that scummy but Boon's constant demand for murder isn't?

If Victor's flip yields the most information for town, *and* a decent majority of us think he's going to flip scum? Yes, I will compromise and lynch him. Sorrynotsorry.

I have other scumreads but there's no one who is quite as good a lynch as Victor is.

1) People have been constantly addressing him in their posts giving us a great deal to go off with either flip.
2) He's one of my top scumreads.
3) It's a lynch that's likely to happen.
4) He's already claimed and we won't risk piles of claims on first day.

Cheeto, the way you talk it's as if you already know Victor's going to flip scum. It's fascinating, really.

+1 on this. Well, minus point 2.
Victor has interactions with EVERYONE. Even if he flips town, there's a lot that comes in to focus.

[Elbirn]

We have two days left, you're damn right I want blood. Why is that scummy but Boon's constant demand for murder isn't?

If Victor's flip yields the most information for town, *and* a decent majority of us think he's going to flip scum? Yes, I will compromise and lynch him. Sorrynotsorry.

I just don't feel like your transition between your suspicions is natural. The association between you and Toon also feels hella real. You made an effort to engage me on my point on Victor, but completely ignored the part where I talked about you and Toon being scum together.

Yeah cuz see the theories bunk, because I'm town. So I don't know what you want me to say on it. You think I and Toon are scum? That's nice. Have a cookie. I mean really what do I respond to that with other than "You're wrong"?

I do think it's interesting the way you turned my suspicion of Toon into me defending him somehow. Good scum play there Cheeto.

[Elbirn]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: VictorDeAngelo

And if we have a vig, depending on Victor's flip, I'd say either vig Toon or Monkey. If there's an investigative role, target Cheeto or Copper.

[Elbirn]

But that's the thing, I didn't say that. I said that if Victor is scum, then Toon might be his partner. I never implied that the inverse would be true, and therefore your suspicion is categorically wrong.

[Elbirn]

You saying that I'm implying that you're defending Toon a while back is also kind of weird? Don't really think I did that.

Distancing, defending, it's all semantics. Your implication was that my implication was that if Vic flips town, Toon isn't scum, which in a round-a-bout way is defending him.

Good scum play there Cheeto.

Fact that you're not telling vig to shoot me while also calling me scum feels off. Could see the angle of this being a joke, but I still don't like dis shit.

Tl;dr, I can only have one scumread and if I think others are scummier than you than I'm scum. Also, you don't understand jokes.

Well, you're certainly doing a good job of either not understanding what I'm saying or pretending to not understand what I'm saying.
I'm saying that your push on Toon feels like shitdistancing between scumpartners. It feels like the safe kind of indirect prodding that someone might think would be good for making it seem like you're less likely to be scummates with each other without actually having to take any kind of risk to actually push for said person to be lynched. You get to push a mislynch all while being able to point back to it later and say "look! I suspected Toon! I totally did!"

You being like "Oh if Victor is scum then obviously Toon must be as well!" feels like an easy way to softpush a scummate without actually having to commit to them, as you can just say on D2 "oh well Victor was town so they're fine c:"

You know a lot of your posts are worded as though you know already that Vic will flip town, and I think it's interesting.

I already summed up what I think. My wagon should have at least two scum. More likely three assuming one of Monkey/Copper is scum.

The only hard thing is so many sheeped on my wagon without really given any explanation as to why they thought I was scum, that it's hard to tell who's town on it. Just don't let people get away with the whole Vic was an infromative lynch, Vic was so scummy etc... because there two equally viable lynches toDay and they would have been equally infromative, and I defy anyone to say I was scummier than either Copper/Monkey. If nothing else it's telling how little people have presented cases, or even just highlighted actual scummy play in my posting. But that's tomorrow's problem. And it won't be mine.

Some final advice:

Vig should target one of Copper/Monkey (and fire tonight even if their one shot). If there's another shot, Boon is a good vig target down the line.

Protection should protect either Cheety/Former. These two would make good neighbourizer targets as well.

Cop should investigate Acryon/Elbirn. I'm not going to say anything to any other investigative roles except use your common sense.

This post makes me feel like a right ass, and if Vic flips town I'm gonna feel even worse.
His "final advice" on what role should do what is pretty solid. I agree with the vig choices, but would throw Toon in there as well depending on how this all shakes out. Not sold on protecting Cheety, I'd say RC (because confirmed innocent) and FormerFish. Agreed with cop investigation, Acryon might be worth pursuing and getting me conftowned will at least keep us from wasting a lynch on me.

I also agree that Elbirn has been looking quite bad here.

[Elbirn]

You don't know how bad you are to make these statements, wait to see if your own reads were correct before making these statements. You are confirming you are town here?

Wha?

[Elbirn]

i haven't read yet. is there anything I should know that'll affect how I should read things?

RadiantCowbells is mod confirmed innocent child. Boonskiies and Monkeyman are village idiots. That about sums it up.

To RadiantCowbells and Cheeto, any points you want to discuss? You both have a vote on me but not really any reasons given. I mean, I can imagine why obviously, but if you wanna talk it out...

[Elbirn]

Like when you consider the double town flip it puts a whole new light on Elbirn's ambivalence to where his vote went on those wagons.

I'm not certain what you mean here?

[Elbirn]

Thoughts.

Futan was probably the NK. I have to imagine, with all the scumreads he was attracting, that scum wouldn't NK Cop, and he was therefore Vig'd. Assuming Futan was the NK...Well, why was Futan the NK? He was rather...Meek, unassuming, I feel. He was active-lurky and could have been mislynch potential for scum. He was pretty null. Reading his ISO all I can really glean is that he was the only person opposed to a Monkey wagon (scratch that, early on he was opposed, later he voted him), and he seemed to be scumreading Toon and Boon, and in one of his final posts he called me scummy. Those are pretty much his only actions in this game. So...Was he chosen at random, or to throw us off the trail of Toon, Boon, or Monkey?

Cheeto's reactions to Monkey last page. Does his anger seem genuine to you guys, or does it feel like fake outrage? My gut says it was real, and I could get a townread off that kind of frustration.

Monkey continues to play like shit. I can't decide if he's scummy or lynchbait. I think someone men Toon and Acryon's belief that Victor V. Copper was scum V. scum was kinda shitty, and especially so now that they've both flipped town. Toon changing his mind on hammering Victor strikes me as odd, like he wanted to avoid the attention of hammering a town. I don't like a behavior I think I've noticed in Acryon, but I want to reread his ISO to see if maybe I'm imagining that before I push him for it.

VOTE: MonkeyMan576

I'm just gonna leave that there for now.

[Elbirn]

Oh, I was in the middle of typing another sentence and forgot.

"I think someone men" wasss

*I think someone mentioned Monkey had another game in progress where he was posting frequently, 30 times a day (rereading showed this was Futan). Why is he ducking this game?

[Elbirn]

Victor didn't think I was scummy. He thought I was vig bait so we didn't waste a 'policy lynch' on me? Also, elbirn keeps following my votes...what is your read on me, Elbirn? Also, why do you continue to push in the exact same direction as I do, after I do? The general play style is actually a lot like my own, especially with the pushin for blood end of the day yesterDay.

I'm not following your votes, we just happen to have the same vote. I pushed on Monkey yesterday too, and I'm suspicious of Acryon, and I assure you it has nothing to do with you

Honestly I don't know what to think of you. I can't see any evidence either way for you being town/scum. Rereading your ISO didn't help either. Which I kinda feel like that should be worrying to me, for me to feel totally null on someone after a whole day. Your posts don't really have much content, there's a lot of commentary and prod-dodging and "I think x is scum/town" without much else. I don't scumread you for it, but I certainly wouldn't townread you. If we wind up lynching a VI, I'd rather it be Monkey than you. That's about the most positive thing I can say about you xD

Toon I could compromise on, but it's Elbirn I really want. The casual flippancy towards the lynch vis a vis bouncing back and forth between all 3 is glaring at me.

See what's frustrating to me is that you yourself RC stated that a Victor lynch would be most beneficial in terms of information. And while I clearly preferred Copper or Monkey (in that order), I compromised. In fact, I did it twice, someone talked me off the Copper wagon onto the Monkey wagon, and then your statement talked me off the Monkey wagon and onto the Victor wagon. Yeah, I wanted a lynch. The confirmed innocent insisted a Victor lynch was a good play. So I compromised. Now I'm scumread for agreeing with you. Wha?

What I'm getting out of this is that I shouldn't have agreed with you, which frankly is the only part that makes sense seeing as how it was pretty dumb in retrospect. I had no confidence in Victor flipping scum and I followed-the-leader because you and everyone else wanted him to flip. Maybe I shouldn't make compromise votes.

[Elbirn]

Here's a question, Eektor followed me off the Monkey wagon onto the Victor wagon. He just did it a lot more quietly. Why isn't he getting shit for it?

[Elbirn]

After a careful VCA, and a bit of intuition, I'd posit the scum team is between [Monkey-Cheetory-(Boon/acryon/eektor)]

And if we lynch Monkey everything will become clearer

@RC: I can agree on that lynch. In fact, my scum team depends on Monkey being scum. If he is town, then Elbirn is the one we should be after

UNVOTE: MonkeyMan VOTE: Elbirn

Did no one else notice how bullshit this is? How does your scum team rely on monkey being scum? Why do you relent on Monkey being scum after...Nothing happening? Basically you've just thrown all of your opinions out the window to jump on the flavor-of-the-moment bandwagon because reasons.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: ToonFighter

[Elbirn]

on phone. Why would I encourage shitty play? You doing as I do without putting any thought into it is a lazy, lazy move, and I fail to see town motivation in it.

[Elbirn]

And what if it's scum shepping Town, hm?

[Elbirn]

I think you're scum and I know I'm town, therefore scum sheeping Town? Why do you think I "knew" copper was town?

[Elbirn]

...........are we sure innocent child means mod confirmed innocent/town? Seriously what

"If I'm not voting them then they're town"

is this a joke?

[Elbirn]

Monkey I'll get back to you in a minute

[Elbirn]

Look I wouldn't be opposed to a Toon lynch if it weren't for the fact that all of my scumreads are on it.

As it happens there's no way I'm compromising on Toon today, period, end of the line.

So if people, some of whom are town, want to go that direction, that's your prerogative, but you're doing it without the support of the IC, which would give scum good excuses for not joining the wagon, which would mean...
...that if you're voting scum the lynch isn't happening, but that if you're voting town it might.

Just something to keep in mind!

Okay I'm on a computer now, whee.

I retract 862, you didn't say that. But what you are doing is implying that we need to follow the wagons that you back, simply because you are the IC, which is bullshit. And again, it's especially frustrating because I did that Day 1 and you now are pushing my lynch as a result. Literally what the fuck.

Like the more I think about it the more frustrated I am with you.

So you don't want to lynch Toon because your scumreads are on his wagon. Here's the problem with that. For starters, you are not all knowing. You can in fact be wrong. In fact, you probably are. I already know you're wrong in your read of me for example. And while I agree on some of your other reads (Monkey and Acryon are on the wagon and I'm not a fan of them frankly), your refusing to "compromise" and vote Toon is based on 1. an absolute confidence that they are scum, instead of considering other possibilities and trying to puzzle this game out, and 2. not acknowledging the possibility of scum voting scum. If you think Toon is scum, if you interpret his actions and his words as scummy, then you need to be open to lynching him, who gives a fuck who's on his wagon. If you still think I'm more likely scum, then fine, hang me first, but don't hedge on your opinion on Toon because you scumread people voting him.

"Hi, I'm MonkeyMan576. I think someone might be scum but I'm going to argue with them until they admit they're scum instead of either voting them or convincing others."

This is also crap. He's already voting someone else he thinks is scum. Your statement is that basically you can't poke and prod at anyone but your vote. tl;dr, you can only have one scumread. No.

Because you seemed gung ho about the wagon before I joined but once I joined, you started getting nervous about it. Maybe you were planning on changing your vote(which you did once you voted me), but didn't feel like you could do it after the sheep. Like I said, weather or not you like someone on your wagon shouldn't matter that much, if you were that confident about the wagon in the first place.

Why would someone sheeping me mean I can't change my vote? I was confident about the wagon, you sheeping me and townreading me based on nothing was crappy play and I called you out on it. These are separate issues. You're basically saying that I shouldn't be critical of anyone who is doing what I am doing because I think that what I am doing is right, therefore what they are doing is right. This is false.

[Elbirn]

I retract 862, you didn't say that. But what you are doing is implying that we need to follow the wagons that you back, simply because you are the IC, which is bullshit. And again, it's especially frustrating because I did that Day 1 and you now are pushing my lynch as a result. Literally what the fuck.

I didn't ask to be IC. I hate being town power. Like, hate hate hate it.

But everything above is just facts. Like it or dislike it that's kinda just the way the story goes, so if you want a lynch that's not you find someone else and sell it to me.

And once again we get "All must follow my wagons", with an added dash of "I'm not going to change my mind or put effort in, you do the scum hunting" for taste.

I feel the fact Radiant didn't get killed last night means Radiants not targeting scum...

Or they've realized what it took me until today to figure out, that Radiant is a detriment to team town.

[Elbirn]

Let's move on then. I don't agree with Radiant, blablabla, you guys get the point. I don't want to leave the thread at a sour note like that, and arguing with him isn't any good if it's just antagonistic and doesn't change any minds.

Formerfish, you've been lurky lately I feel. Do you have any thoughts you'd like to share?

Pieguhn (hope I spelled that right), have you had time to read into the thread? I'd like to hear your thoughts as well.

[Elbirn]

On phone. ff I wasn't trying to harass, What I mean is...idk I feel like I got lotsa town vibes off of you early day 1, but the latter phase of d1 And so far d2 You've felt under the radar and I haven't noticed you. It just feels like it's been a while since I've seen a good ol' fishy post, and I'd like to.

Pieguyn, ty for sharing, that's interesting to know about monkeh

[Elbirn]

Hm. Boon, I'd like to ask you contain yourself with the quick hammering, whether it's me or anyone else who gets put to l-1. There's 12 days left, and I for one want to hear what people have tobsay, rather than rushing the day.

[Elbirn]

Elbirn, you can claim whatever you want. I know you're scum.

This is the point where if I wasn't IC I would be claiming cop with a guilty on you.

You're gonna feel like a real jackass when I flip.

And seriously, you got an idea in your head and you shut off all other possibilities. and youre smug about it? Also, you'd fake claim a guilty. I mean. Fuck. Does this site have a blacklist? I wanna make sure I don't wind up in a game with you again.

[Elbirn]

I should be mad only that you're pushing me, and not mad at you for pushing me for bad reasons.

I can see we're done here. You are beyond reason.

[Elbirn]

Bye Felicia

[Elbirn]

can we please let me finish reading before we go lynching anyone

I don't particularly feel optimistic about the Elbirn wagon. I'm still at p24 but I've seen a few things I liked about her play and the way she's reacting to RC is at the very least giving me some additional pause about lynching her.

I think TF is scum. based on the other reads I have at this point, I think he's getting bussed here. I want a chance to fully form/post my reads before anyone gets lynched, since I'm currently feeling pretty good about this.

I mean it doesn't matter at all but I'm a guy. Just saying.

At any rate at least you have some sense.

[Elbirn]

...I didn't mean that like, implying you wouldn't, I meant like, emphasis on the word you. Like, you as opposed to the nonsense I see going on. Nvm it didn't translate well.

[Elbirn]

Well. Pie is town. Her analysis all makes sense, I like the way she looks at people's motivations, gets into their head, etc. I actually really like her stance on Monkey; while the rest of us are pretty much ready to write him off as scum, she offers an alternative viewpoint that makes sense and clearly has thought put into it, and on top of that I don't see that kind of action coming from a scum. Let's pretend we have a scum_pieguyn on our hands. If Monkey is scum: Why would Scum_pie completely screw herself by defending her obvscum partner, that would look really bad for both of them if either flip. If Monkey is Town: Why would scum_pie be so vocal in defending easy lynchbait?

I do have some amount of paranoia about FF, but it's nothing worth pursuing. not really going to bother explaining this unless asked given most ppl seem to agree here.

I'd like to hear what you think about FF.

@Cheetory - I won't hammer if I legitimately feel the person is town. Usually if I want the person lynched in a day, I'll hammer before people can change their mind. So yes, I will hammer post Day 1. In hindsight, you'll notice my hammers are never really 'bad' for town.

But really, that's the right decision, isn't it.

Do whatever you think will make your team win the game, and let the consequences be damned?

See here's the problem as I understand it. As town our main detriment is lack of information. We make up for that disadvantage primarily by having conversation, thus gaining information. When you hammer early, you are cutting short conversation, and thus taking away an opportunity for us. I'm pretty well convinced TF is scum, but if you (boon) were to hammer him with a week + left on the clock? I'd be mad regardless of what he flips.

I thought SiX was town and with pie's catchup post I still think that slot is town. As for his suspicion on me, I don't really know what to say when his main point against me is by PoE I must be scum. I don't think I'm coasting through the game either

. I might be a bit quiet but it's mostly because I'm still trying to figure the game out.

As of the start of Day 2 I was thinking a possible scum team of Toon, Elbirn, and acryon. Only way that is possible is if Elbirn and acryon are bussing hard their partner for town cred. Since Toon is being read as scummy by most everyone, that could be the case, but I have doubts that I have been biased that Toon is scum for the whole game and then there is the case that I'm town reading the people on Elbirn's wagon except for Toon.

I feel confident to say that I believe Cheetory is town and of course RC is town. I'd rather vote with those two than vote Toon with 2 people I think are scum.

And if there are 3 scum in the game, it makes me wonder why Elbirn's lynch is looking like it would be much harder to go through than a Toon lynch. Basically there appears to be a better probability that Elbirn is scum than Toon.

Important parts bolded.

1. If you're trying to figure the game out, how is being quiet helping you? I'm reading through your ISO, and I don't really see you making any pushes or scumhunting. You ask lots of questions, but they feel...Idle. Like they don't lead to anything. It's like you might as well have asked about the weather.

2. And once again we get justification for a vote by way of "I'm just sheeping people I think are town, no big deal". RC is conf town, but that does not mean she is right. Cheetory might be town, but we don't know that. Your scum reads might be scum, but once again we don't know that they are. So instead of having any reasoning for a vote, we get what basically amounts to an excuse. Hm.

Why DO you think I'm scum anyway?

I feel like anyone not voting Toon right now needs to have a really good reason for doing so.

I cannot think of any good reason for why anyone would say this. This smells like scum. Pressuring people into a vote without any reasoning given and implying that anyone not on the wagon is subject to suspicion? No, no this won't do.

[Elbirn]

@Elbirn

1. So what is the weather like where you live?

2. Not much time right now but I can write up a post about you sometime tonight.

1. Dark and rainy, I feel like I live in Seattle. And it's way too hot for February. Not a fan.

2. At your earliest convenience, yes, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

I feel like anyone not voting Toon right now needs to have a really good reason for doing so.

I cannot think of any good reason for why anyone would say this. This smells like scum. Pressuring people into a vote without any reasoning given and implying that anyone not on the wagon is subject to suspicion? No, no this won't do.

Terrible. I didn't say

anything

about suspicion. Not sure what world you and fish come from, but where I come from, having a crappy reason for doing something doesn't make you scum. The point of my comment was to hear why those not voting toon are abstaining, at which point I could tell them why they are wrong.

But here's the thing, you didn't say that at all. There wasn't a question, there was no "To everyone not voting Toon, why aren't you voting Toon?", it was a finger wag, a tsk-tsk-tsk to everyone not on the Toon wagon. I don't see your motivation as figuring out other people motivation, I see it as guilting/pressuring people into voting the same wagon as you, and that comes from a scummy mindset imo.

Eektor's starting to ping me as possible scum with these last few posts.
I feel like he started getting a lot more invested in saying things the moment that pie called him out as a scumspect, which may or may not indicate that before this he was just kind of casually sitting in the comfort of a bunch of slight townreads on him. I also feel like his responses to Pie have been very mechanical/potentially forced, but I could also see that being playstyle.
More a bad feeling than anything atm.

...

I do like that he (Elbirn) follows a line of questioning with acryon, but it doesn't really seem to go anywhere afterwards. He keeps kind of semi-committing to a softscumread on Acryon, while also being like "eh it could be buddying or it could just be nothing don't worry guyzz".
What really bugs me is that his worries on Acryon just seem to eventually disappear.
Like, this is less me saying that Elbirn is obviously scum for this and more saying that if either Elbirn or Acryon is scum, chances of the other being scum rises dramatically.

...

Elbirn's blatant self-awareness makes it hard to read him. q.q

Agreed with your Eektor analysis, at least as far as the whole beetlejuice thing is concerned.

I like that you brought up Acryon, because I hadn't thought about the Boon-Acryon connection since I posted that, and I pretty much put that aside after Victor & Copper went "look at me look at me LOOK AT ME" for a good 20 pages or so. I'll repeat what I said earlier, if one of Boon or Acryon flips, I'd take a good hard look at the other.

Not sure what that last part about self-awareness means?

I'm thinking possibly Monkey/Acryon now.

VOTE: Monkey

If someone votes Toon Fighter, I'm hammering, by the way. Toon's my second choice for toDay's lynch.

These two posts contradict each other.
Boon, why did you posit that Monkey/Acryon were scum in post 803? You had never before mentioned a scumread on him, and then you list him as your 2nd choice for a lynch. And then in 901 you contradict that by saying that Toon is your second choice? Huh?

I want to know your read on Acryon, and why.

[Elbirn]

How do they contradict each other at all? There were 100 posts in between, and I also scum read Toon Fighter Day 1. I don't believe Toon Fighter is scum with Monkey,

whereas I could see Acryon and Monkey scum together.

I don't really have much reasoning for Acryon. Usually he tunnels me pretty hard as town, and he's playing kind of differently than I'm used to him playing. Also, his placing on the early day 1 wagon was odd to me, and I'd like to look into later, depending on the flips. I absolutely do not think Acryon should be today's lynch, as there's not enough scum reasoning behind my gut feeling, and I don't believe it'll give many reads. I'd much rather a Toon Fighter lynch than an Acryon.

What I meant is I'm thinking they are possible scum buddies for now.

I don't mention all of my reads necessarily, as early on in the game, I'm not really sure how to word it with it making sense to other people. I also said for now...plot points, yo.

See bolded. Did I just catch you in a lie? Because I think I just caught you in a lie.

I don't think they're connected, more do I think they are scum together. They're just my scum reads.

Hm.
So Day 1 you had Victor and Toon as scumread 1 & 2. You said that after Victor lynch, Toon should be next (593, 598, but you quickly flip flop (599, saying basically that "Toon is scum but we shouldn't lynch them" (wha?). Then to start Day 2, you continued to disregard Toon and bring up a Monkey/Acryon scumread instead that...Doesn't have any real basis. And you told a lie about it. And now you're telling me you'd prefer a Toon lynch, all the while you're still not voting him.

Lemme ask you this.

Why do you think Monkey and Acryon could be scumbuddies?
Why do you NOT think Monkey and Toon could be scumbuddies?

[Elbirn]

1. Do you really think you need to ask questions to get information about someone? I ask questions when needed, if I see something I want to point out, I point it out, and then I like to see other people's interactions to see possible links. For instance, after going through your iso, I noticed a link between you and acryon.

What link do you see? Don't leave me hanging like that mang. Is it the part where I scumread him? Or maybe the parts Cheeto pointed out. Yeah not following up on my questions of him was crap, I get it, but got dang if the Copper V. Victor fight wasn't a great smokescreen for scum.

2. My vote on you didn't come from thin air, throughout the game I found you suspicious. I even did mention that I was suspicious of you at the beginning. Just because I turned my attention and vote on others didn't mean I thought you were town, I just felt there were others more suspicious than you. I did say at the beginning of day 2 that I thought the scum team was Toon, Elbirn, and acryon. I voted Toon, then when I saw how the votes ended up I thought you were the best one to vote for, because two scum reads were voting for Toon and one scum read was voting for you. Also, if Toon flips scum it would be harder to find his buddies, but if you flip scum I will push for acryon next.

K, well I'm town. Vote for Toon/Acryon instead?

Why do I think you are scum?

1. Your vote progression in day 1. You started saying Victor vs copper was town vs town, then you thought Victor was right and copper was scum, you voted for copper. Then when the copper wagon wasn't going anywhere you went to Monkey. That's fine, but then you jumped to Victor at the end and tried to rationalize that even though you were sure he was town you would get more information out of his lynch. I don't see any town motivation in that, I see as scum trying to get a lynch through.

2. This deserves a separate point because you really were looking to hammer anyone at the end. I can understand if we are at a deadline but there was still a couple of days to go. It just reeked of overeager scum wanting to lynch someone.

3. There's been twice I've seen people accuse you and you throw up a post of "who cares". That type of behavior I see as coming more from scum who feels like they got caught.

1 & 2. Glorious Leader Radiant Cowbells said lynch Victor, and it seemed like we weren't going to get everyone on board for Monkey or Copper. Also, we were at 2-3 days left. I consider that about time to figure out a lynch. Running the clock out isn't smart.

3. I'd also like to see this.

[Elbirn]

@Elbirn - how is that a lie? I'm stating the same thing in both of those posts. I believe monkeyman and Acryon are a strong possibility of being scum buddies. If toon fighter is scum, I don't see monkey being scum. Simple as that.

See you didn't say that at all. Earlier today you said you scumread Monkey and Acryon, but when asked what the connection was, you said there was none. You said there wasn't a connection, nor do you think they are scumbuddies, they are just your scumreads. Now you're telling me that you think they are scumbuddies. Does no one else see this?

[Elbirn]

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe I said Toon shouldn't be lynched. In fact, I specifically said that Toon Fighter is my #2 choice for a lynch. I believe you're slipping up, bro. I think you scum slipped with that. Making stuff up, rattling around, not checking facts before a case, and trying to pull attention from yourself onto someone else.

Annd then this is also crap. Your initial statement, again, was "I'm thinking Monkey/Acryon", with a vote on Monkey in the same post, and then nothing said about Toon. In fact the previous day you even retracted your statement that Toon should be lynched

Actually, I don't want Toon lynched toDay. She may be scum, but I believe a Victor/Monkey lynch will be more beneficial for analyzing. Toon's kind of her own little entity, which won't give us much.

And it isn't until 901 that you mention wanting to lynch Toon second. So basically you're flipflopping wherever you see convenient.

I'm finding myself less and less comfortable with lynching Toon.
UNVOTE:

[Elbirn]

To the 3 people I think who questioned me about the who care's post. These two just reeks of whatever, who cares attitude.

*snip*

How do you want me to respond to someone saying my play is bad? I read that as a vague attempt at insulting me, why wouldn't I respond to that with a "lol whatever d00d"?

That second one was me injecting a little humor into an angry situation.

I fail to see the problem here. *shrug*

@Elbirn If you are town, without naming names (in other words thinking logically) how many scum do you think were on your wagon at the height (4)?

Welp, I'd say I have 4 scumreads at this point. 2 of my (now) weaker ones were on the wagon. Though I don't know why you ask me to not name names, when it's pretty clear who those two people are when one of them I've openly townread, the other is the IC, the other one I've been voting for all day and the other one is you.

-------------

@Acryon: The problem I'm having is I don't know whether I should be voting for Boon or for you. Boon is the logical follow up considering the last line of discussion. You seem to be the partner he's protecting however, and you already have a wagon going. But then that's bullshit isn't it, voting for you because of someone else without a flip to really solidify the association. I'll be mulling things over, for now everyone can pretend that you have another vote on you.

[Elbirn]

Oh you know what, hell with it.

VOTE: Boonskiies

I'll move it to you later if need be.

[Elbirn]

...Yes?

[Elbirn]

I'm thinking possibly Monkey/Acryon now.

VOTE: Monkey

What is the dealio with a Monkey/Acryon connection? Too lazy to see if there's something actually there right now and want you to spoonfeed it to me Boon c:

I don't think they're connected, more do I think they are scum together. They're just my scum reads.

I mean unless I'm a blithering retard and you actually meant to use the word "more" instead of "nor", which doesn't make ANY fucking sense in the context of this sentence. You're caught in a lie. Or, at best, an inconsistency. And now you're raging pretty bad about it, which is just making it worse.

[Elbirn]

Seriously tho. If you guys make a ton of noise, I'm gonna be hella suspicious of both of you potentially trying to recreate TvT noise from D1.

As of right now I want either Acryon or Eektor lynch.

I don't intend on it, I'm trying to keep a civil dialogue here. I caught an inconsistency, Boon's gonna rage about it.

I'm on board for an Acryon compromise lynch, but Eektor is a weaker scumread for me personally. After this recent discussion I'd say my scumreads are, in order of strongest to weakest

Acryon = Boon > Toon = eektor

[Elbirn]

@cheetory - I'm more sold on an Elbirn/Acryon pairing than Elbirn monkey,

but I've kind of grouped Acryon and monkey together for now as well.

You've yet to explain that one by the way.

[Elbirn]

Jesus dude, what is the connection between acryon and monkey? Why do you think they are scum buddies?

[Elbirn]

Elbirn is looking a bit better for now, but I wouldn't discard the possibility. Elbirn, if I flip scum, who would you look into next? Same thing for town.

sorry toon, seems I skipped over this. let me anewer your question with a question. if you're town, why ask me what I would think if you flip scum? I'm thinking about it and I feel like a town would ask "okay, so after I flip town who are you going for?"

[Elbirn]

I said IF. We are in the realm of possibilities. If I were to flip town, who would you think is scum? If I were scum, who would you think was my partner?

Come on guys. Let's lynch this.

F-U. What do YOU think are my partners, if you are so sure I am scum?

I was talking hypothetically. My real alignment (town) doesn't matter if I am just proposing scenarios. I will not flip scum. I will (or will not, if I survive) flip town. THAT DOESN'T MATTER. Why would proposing scenarios and asking questions influence my alignment? I want to hear Elbirn's (and now yours) reasoning on who do you think scum would lie, in case I were scum. I want to see your associative tells, regarding me. It's a loaded question? A bit, sure. But when I flip town, and since I can't actually flip scum, your answers provide information to town regarding your intentions and targets.

I'm still not sold. The purpose of the questioning seems to be "Oh yeah, well if I'm scum, tell me who my partners are." As if an inability to find them or any partner tells means anything. Scum-Toon could be making this play to sow doubt in us, or even just to know if we're on his partners trails. As for why Town-Toon would ask this...I don't know. Ha, come to think of it Town-Toon could be doing it for the same reason; trying to shake us off a scumread on him because we can't find any partner tells. Either way it's a crappy move, but I suppose either alignment could make it.

So I guess the whole thing is null.

So Toon, after that whole rash of shit, I suppose the least I could do is answer your question. The problem is you have so few interactions with anyone. If you're scum, I could see you being bussed by Acryon/Boon, so maybe start there. Or perhaps even Eektor, it seems odd to me that you listed him as a scum read in 128 with...No reasoning from what I can tell, he had hardly any content at that point. Some weak distancing? Perhaps even Monkey, my scumread on him has weakened into a null, but the way you strong scumread him in that same post 128 but voted for Victor for a crappy reason? That smells like shit. In which case, you're being bussed hard.

If you flipped town, It'd probably strengthen my read on Boon and Acryon. Because frankly I'm starting to get the impression that you're a scummy-town being taken advantage of by the scumteam for a mislynch.

I'm not too confident on his reads. He was wrong on my about not liking RVS being scummy, and he was wrong when he said Copper and Victor were likely both scum, when they were both town. But he's been fairly active, and confident in his opinions. His posting seems fairly genuine to me at this point, and he's willing to put himself out on a limb.

Activity is a null tell. Confidence is a null tell. A feeling of genuineness can be faked if you are aware enough of your own meta. Scum are always out on a limb.

I hate these reasons for (not scum reading someone?) because its all bullshit. How do you feel about Pies points on the VDA/Copper wagons and the fact that he claims to be focusing on Toon but has admittedly had Elb in the wings? Those two points are very damning to me. And before anyone gets their feathers ruffled I do know that people can have more than one scum read, but this feels like scum scatter shooting and hoping that one of the reads they have takes off as a wagon so they can easily slide onto it. I hated the remark about whoever wasn't voting Toon should have a good reason, and the subsequent shittiness towards me and my questions. Notice how he just said that they were stupid and brushed me off. Town would want to bring me into the fold and get me to vote with him, that wasn't what happened. Instead he tried to shame me into shutting up because h knew that statement was bullshit.

Vote: Acryon

I'm with pie on this.

Yeah I've been thinking it over, and I want an Acryon lynch over a Boon lynch anyway. Bandwagon Ho

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Acryon

[Elbirn]

@eektor: You said earlier that given copper-town or Victor-town, chance of Cheety-scum goes up. What made you change your mind in light of

both

Victor and copper flipping town.

This was never said, I thought this sounded a little off so I checked their iso's. It was

ToonFighter

in 562 who suggested that if Copper or Victor flip town, Cheeto is more likely scum.

@ToonFighter, redirecting this queston to you. You said yesterday that Cheety is likely scum with Vic-town and Copper-town. Why didn't you follow up on that? You haven't pushed Cheeto, voted him, asked him any questions, or anything today. Instead you started the day voting Monkey, and then me. Why?

[Elbirn]

Acryon, I have no clue what I'm doing. My reads are horrible early game. Remember how hard I was town reading Thor day 1 Ninja mafia then just decided to hell with it? Also, my Zebulin tunnel...I can link my 2 scum games if you guys want to see them? Keep in mind, Acryon. I don't think you are scum unless Monkey is scum. And if Monkey is scum, I don't think Toon Fighter is.

Yeah, but you having horrible early game reads doesn't make you town. It doesn't make you scum either, but I do think having a list of 4-5 people you would be willing to lynch is a bit much.

Can I get an updated reads list from you, including who you would be willing to lynch?

I don't know that I agree. There's probably 3 scum. Having 4 scumreads sounds reasonable. I also have 4 scumreads, and while one of them is my definite preferred lynch, if any of the other 3 go down today you won't hear any complaints from me.

Also I don't think claiming stupid is a very good defense. You're good at D3/D4 but not at any other point.....Whyyyy? We have plenty of information to be going off of at this point. Start playing 4serious. Or at least stop pretending you don't know what's going on.

I want Monkey or Toon really. Those will help me settle my reads the most.

Elbirn is mainly there because he annoyed me

, and that's kind of dying down now, but eh. If it's down to deadline I'd accept a lynch on you, probably, but like I said before,

I wouldn't quick hammer you

.

Bold 1: This is a terrible reason to lynch anyone and reeks of scummy newbflail. But at least you've confirmed voting me was an OMGUS.

Bold 2: Why would you quickhammer any of your other 3 scumreads, but not Acryon?

I'd wait until deadline for you, Acryon, but if you've noticed, I haven't really pushed you at all this game.

I mean so do you think I'm scum or no? I think the issue is you are sort of pushing people but also sort of riding the fence.

It all depends on one if Toon is scum, really. If toon fighter flips town, by vote count analysis and reactions from Day 1, yes, I would think you are scum. Although, I was feeling off about you because your Day 1 play was odd. toDay I've felt the Acryon I am more used to. I believe one of TF/MM is scum, and I won't be able to get a confirmation on my read of you until then. And I always sort of ride the fence up until like day 3-4.

Oh, that's why. So...So you think Acryon is scum based on...Nonsense and fairy dust? You don't have any other reasoning for a scumread beyond "if so and so flips whatever", and based on some unexplained "VCA" and unspecified "reactions". And you won't push Acryon or question him or vote him or anything. Oh, but you totally scumread him, so it's okay!

See in the context of you not actually having good reasons for scumreading him, I'm totally fine with you not quickhammering him. It makes sense to not do something stupid. (that was one hell of a sentence, I was gonna edit that one out or reword it but God does that sounds like something I should be saying to Boon.) But for you to scumread him in the first place based solely on preflip associations, and to say nothing of his actual play. It sounds like a loada crap. It sounds like distancing without any substance. It just keeps giving me that impression that you two are buddies, and Boon really, really doesn't want to bus.

[Elbirn]

You're scummy newbflail theory only works if I'm scum. I'm not. I'm a much stronger scum player than I am town. Also, would you like to me to link all of my games where I did stupid things and stupid votes as town? I can link you pretty much EVERY game I've ever been in.

Being stupid is not an ironclad defense and I'd really like it if you'd stop pretending it is.

Also, Elbirn, I'll bus the fuck out of my buddies, so that argument is moot.

"As scum I do this", "As scum I do that". This again? I thought this line of thinking died with Copper. It doesn't work. You could not bus scum-Acryon because that's what we'd expect of scum-boon. You could not bus Acryon because he's a roleblocker or something valuable. There are a million reasons why this is bullshit.

[Elbirn]

I'm not lynching toon or monkey and I don't like how Boon wants either of those lynches.

My lynchpool is between Elbirn/Acryon/Pie rn.

Why did you do a complete 180 on Toon? I really don't get it. D1 you said the scumteam was Toon/Victor/Cheeto. You then proceeded to declare Toon off limits with no further investigation. Wha? Why? And what happened to your Cheeto read? I don't disagree with it, but you seem very flippant with those D1 reads.

Your scumread on me seems to be entirely based on my end of D1. Which..Well you already know my feelings about that. But have you, idk, maybe possibly considered reevaluating your stance on me? Maybe read my D2 posts instead of being so obstinate?

I also don't get your Pie scumread. Elaborate?

[Elbirn]

I'm assuming you meant Elbirn's reads. why would scum specifically focus on getting reads from Elbirn? usually "

fishing out reads

" isn't actually done often in practice, and when it is it's usually done to someone who's perceived as a large threat

(and no offense but I don't exactly think Elbirn fits here

).

I still don't follow your logic here.

1. I'm not certain what bold 1 means. This is my first game in the big leagues, third overall. Can someone explain? Or like, if it's just asking someone what their reads are, why it would only be done to a "threat"? I'm just confused by this whole quote.

2. Bold 2. What's that supposed to mean? ;_;

[Elbirn]

Why are you trying to create a 1 v 1?

Because one of you are scum. I'd rather a monkey lynch, but no one seems to like that.

+1 for reasons for Boon being scum. I just don't like this. And as I learned from my last game, where I was scum; scum like to set up dichotomies instead of actually scumhunting. The whole "If x is scum then y is town" thing? Sounds like shit to me.

[Elbirn]

@Elbirn:

what do you make of my recent thoughts re: TF?

cos the thing is, i don't disagree TF's wagon weirds me out, but TF has done basically nothing town and i have a lot of town reads elsewhere. and i think acryon's and TF's pushes on each other look fake; acryon for reasons already mentioned, and TF basically because there was no *actual* push until his recent posts and there was still hardly anything there. (iirc. correct me if i'm wrong, on phone so haven't checked this)

basically i still think TF being bussed here makes the most sense

Pie, it appears I completely skipped this question. Apologies.

Basically I've got two working theories regarding Toon.

1. The scumteam is Toon/Boon/Acryon. Toon is being bussed for being bad, Boon is just being Boon and hoping to coast by playing like himself, Acryon is coasting by lurking...You know, until he got called out on it.

2. Toon is actually badtown and is getting propped up by the scumteam for a mislynch. Which would make a lotta sense considering I think Acryon is scum and he seems to be the only other alternative for todays lynch. In this case the scumteam is ???/Boon/Acryon. I can think of a player or two I think is scummy, but not certain if I could link them with the other two. I've made it pretty clear I have a scum-lean on eektor, but I don't know if I see him being scum with Boon/Acryon. for example. Monkey seems to be defending Acryon and I don't really know why, and while my scumread of him faded into more of a null, I don't really townread him. He could also be the +1 here?

So...Thinking it over. We could lynch Toon, and he could flip whatever he flips, and then no matter what I'm going to want Acryon's blood D3. Or we could lynch Acryon who I'm confident will flip scum regardless. Acryon's death would also be more helpful in terms of information imo. If he's town, my proposed scumteam pretty much falls apart and I need to go rethink my life. If he's scum, odds of Boon scum go up, odds of Monkeyman scum go up.

Agree/Disagree?

Saying that Pie and I are scum if Toon is town doesn't make any sense. Toon is acting scummy. You haven't pointed out any town behavior from toon afaik.

Right, because it makes more sense to say there is no scum on Toon if he is town?

Acryon is on the Toon wagon, and Boon might as well be since he'll quickhammer.

[Elbirn]

Before I answer that, how is your question any different from Toon's, which you kinda shit on?

[Elbirn]

Wow, Elbirn's two theories are either Toon is scum or Toon is town, way to go out on a limb.

Well that's one way to be a dick and simplify what I said and disregard all of the other details. Well done.

[Elbirn]

Because I want it, probably.

I'll get to your questions tonight guize.

[Elbirn]

Vig / SK please kill Elbirn regardless of this flip.

Yeah don't do that. Killing me would be very bad. Kill Boon/acryon.

[Elbirn]

Formerfish died Night 2. He was a

Mafia 2-shot Roleblocker Traitor.

What the hell does that mean?

[Elbirn]

VOTE: Acryon

[Elbirn]

On phone. K so I've read up on the "traitor" role. Would traitor know his team mates? Clearly main scum team didn't know the traitor as they derped And killed him. But I wanna know if former knew his teammates, that'll affect the way I read things when I go back and iso Him. But I'm guessing only mod knows that and cannot divulge?

[Elbirn]

Oh. So scum team is acryon and monkey. I get it now.

[Elbirn]

How do they plan that when they can't communicate?

[Elbirn]

Alrighty, so I'm on a computer now. Apologies, was out and about last night and with a sudden ridiculous snow storm it wasn't really practical for me to drive home, so I wound up crashing at a friends place. I've been paying attention from my phone obviously but yeah. Time to play.

After the Fish flip:

More likely town:
Acryon - willing to confront Fish more often than other players.
Boon - confronted Fish on a couple of issues.


More likely scum -
Cheetory6 - avoided contact with Fish for the most part, even though he was active himself.
pie - called Fish obvtown.
Elbirn - Very active and opinionated, but avoided Fish altogether.

No Change
Eeetor - Not incredibly active, avoided Fish.

Confirmed Town
Monkeyman576
RadiantCowbell

Vote: Elbirn

So the problem with this whole line of thinking is that Main-Scum Team clearly didn't know who their traitor was. This entire post relies on a belief in the opposite. Into the trash it goes. If we want to look at interactions, we have to look at what Former has said and done.

The decision to vote me based on Fishy's flip stinks. It just seems weird that you vote me for it. See 1166. Like, okay, we have more info to work with after the flip so your reads are going to change, I get it. But how in the halibut do you go from "Toon/Boon/Eektor" as the scumteam, to FF flips scum, to voting for ME? Toon flipped Town, then you fallaciously believe that Boon is more likely town after the FF flip...Which still leaves Eektor. You don't list him as more town or more scum, which doesn't make sense considering he did the same thing that your other three "more likely scums" did. Which is crap. And then you vote me. I'm trying to understand your thought process here and it just isn't natural. It seems to imply that your entire reasoning for voting me is an avoidance of FF, even though several others were guilty of the same thing, even though if I WERE scum I wouldn't know he was also scum, and even though you had two other scum reads prior. It just doesn't make any sense. Please elaborate.

my initial thought is that FF had most of the scum in his scum reads, and that's why he died - it is usually normal traitor play (for a traitor who knows his team) to slightly bus your teammates so they can figure out who you are. this would (again) point to acryon.

WIFOM!

Discrediting a line of reasoning with a buzzword. And to once again defend Acryon. Hm.

I agree with post 1214.

Also, there were 2 deaths N1.

Have you considered that maybe it wasn't mafia who killed the traitor?

Aren't Vigilantes limited in the number of kills they can make? With Town having a confirmed innocent and mafia having a gimped teammate, I wouldn't be surprised if Town powerroles were also at some kind of disadvantage. What if our Vig was only 1-shot? Or, rather, what if the vig was roleblocked, or his target protected?

Either way, I can't really think of a reason why our Vig would pick FF of all people. I mean, show of hands, who suspected FF? Pretty much no one. It makes more sense for Team Scum to have picked up on his crumb mentioned in 1234, thought he was a tracker or something of the sort, or maybe vig, or idk, and killed him for it.

------------------
I think it's likely that FF bussed the fuck out of Monkey really early on to get the attention of team scum ("Here I am guize, pay attention to meeee"), and then did the same bussing to Acryon D2. I think Monkey has been defending his scumbuddy Acryon lately, and I think Acryon's done the same in return. This is team scum ladies and gentleman.

Btw, I have an inkling who cop is, and if you're reading this mistah cop and you have a guilty, you should totes just out it.

[Elbirn]

Actually no that's dumb. Crumb it or something and I'll out it. Or not, just keep doing what you're doing. What do I know, I'm a mere noob.

[Elbirn]

You misunderheard me. Fish knew who his buddies were, and this is mod confirmed. I do not believe his scummates knew who he was. You misrepresenting me is scummy

[Elbirn]

Looking at how Fish interacted with others is good. Looking at how others interacted with him not so much, I feel.

[Elbirn]

@Elbirn - go back and read Boon vs FF. If you think FF scum is arguing in that sense to a scum partner, I don't even know how to help you. Come to think of it, I'm going to go back and look at my reads from that time. Maybe him and I started fighting because I was onto something. More on this later.

Got a post number where it starts? I don't recall you two arguing, though I'll look through his ISO for it.

[Elbirn]

Do I have any thoughts I'd like to share? Sure.

I think Cheet is not a killer, at least not last night.

.

Wait, how does this line not make Cheet confirmed innocent? Why would the mafia roleblocker target a team mate?

[Elbirn]

I'm actually somewhat paranoid of FF's interactions with MM576. for the majority of D1, he had a huge scum read on MM576, but was willing to vote copper along with MM576.

not really interested in pursuing this until the acryon thing gets sorted out, plus I think the rest of his play looks town, but it is something I want to look into if it becomes relevant later. might look through some of MM's scum games later as well just to be sure

also think it makes Elbirn slightly more town

. he also completely ignored eektor, save for posts where eektor was explicitly addressing him.

What does, and how? And what does that have to do with Eektor? Idk that whole last part there wasn't very clear, at least to me.

[Elbirn]

Ah okay, I was confused because it sounded like you were bringing up me being more town because of FF ignoring me, and then saying the opposite for Eektor. *Headscratch* But in that same train of thought.. Do you not feel that FF ignored me? You said 1223 was a good point. But now you're saying ignoring me could have been done to mislead. Buttt in the context of Eektor you...Seem to think it's more likely a reliable tell? Yeah I know, you pretty much discredited it in 1284, but then why bring it up in the first place?

usually I don't see scum blatantly vote in a bloc like that. plus, with you/FF-scum, FF not voting would make more sense regardless of MM's alignment. he could more evenly split the wagons if both (copper/MM) were town, and hopefully delay or wait out the MM bus if MM was scum.

My vote switch + FF's vote switch immediately after did in fact even out the wagons between Monkeyman and Victor. Does this mean MM is likely town, in your opinion?

[Elbirn]

Claiming because lel it doesn't matter anymore. I'm informed 2-shot tracker and

I know that there's no serial killer in the game

[that's the informed part].
Was kind of hoping you wouldn't be x-shot because it would make things easier.
Tried to track Elbirn N1 and got no result. I feel really stupid for not piecing together FF's softclaim on D2 sooner, but as soon as he flipped roleblocker it made a hell of a lot of sense.
Tracked Acryon last night and he targeted FF. Hence why I wanted to see if he would claim VT as scum and then we'd have scum on a platter.
This is also alright because it makes targetting down the last few scum pretty easy.

Busy tonight, but tomorrow I can get some real shit done in this game now that this is out of the way.

What does informed mean? Just that you have a piece of info we don't, and in this case that info is there is no serial killer role?

You tracked me N1 with no result. Does that mean you confirm I visited no one, or does it mean you were role blocked by FF?

How does Acryon's claim = not scum? Is it simply that there can only be 2 power roles, in addition to our Innocent Child, and so without a counter claim he's conftown? Because I don't really like his story. :/ It just seems weird to me that he would pick FF to vig, of all people. Plenty of others have drawn more attention. I've had a tunnel on me all game, Boon's been Boon, Monkey's been Monkey, Eektor's been shifty. Why pick FF?

[Elbirn]

And the whole "Oh, scum and me musta picked the same person, whoopsie" thing seems like a weird hypothesis to make.

[Elbirn]

You know what never mind, this question has already been asked and answered, I just don't like the answer because I'm confbiasing, probably.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: MonkeyMan576

[Elbirn]

On phone at work and assume thread will be locked before I can post. I was vanilla town you bunch a smacked asses. see ya post game. Monkey is scum, eektor or boon is the partner.

[Elbirn]

...didn't boon just quickhammer me?

[Elbirn]

You're fake, boon said he hammered me you meanie

[Elbirn]

Alright, on computer, srs posting time.

ftr

Your continued questions at me tell me you want to convince me to vote acryon with you guys, yet you say you are scum hunting and you specifically mentioned you think I'm scum. Shouldn't you try to convince someone else then instead of me? Or do you know I'm town and you need my vote?

this by itself is, imo, enough for a vote. for the people watching at home, his angle here is that I can't possibly be questioning him as a scum suspect.



@Cheetory, Elbirn, acryon: I'd like to hear your thoughts on the above post as well as if you're open for an eektor lynch in general; also curious to know your thoughts on Boon since it's..... somewhat difficult to form a standard read here and I'm POE'ing him atm.

p-edit: . . .

I've got the game narrowed down to a crapshoot between three players. Eektor would be one of them. I really want to do a long reread before saying for certain, but I'm feeling a Monkey + Eektor scumteam. Definite on Monkey, Eektor slightly less so. Boon would be the third.

That post does sound like absolute crap. His conclusion would seem to be that your questioning is motivated by a desire to switch his vote, rather than you probing his thought process to get a feeling for his scumliness. It's pretty counter-intuitive to a townie wanting to be read, makes sense for a scum trying to avoid attention, and instead throws all of your suspicions in your face. Not liking it.

Actually come to think of it, I think Pie might be scum with Elbirn. If you look at Pie's ISO, she's been completely trying to move votes off of Elbirn while staying under the radar about it. When I had initially pushed Elbirn, Pie was the one trying to say it's "town vs town". And she completely tried derailing any of my pushes towards Elbirn. She's still staying away from the Elbirn wagon. She's trying to start a counter wagon off of her scum buddy.

After Elbirn flips, you're next Pie. GG.

VOTE: Elbirn

So say you're town, and I vote for someone you townread. What do you do? You try to move my vote to someone you think is scum.

The whole thing also relies on us both being scum, and I'm town. So it doesn't really work. Let's try this instead, because I'm starting to see how pre-flip associations don't work. What do you see in Pie, either individually or in relation to FormerFish, that you think is scummy?

This is most likely where I leave you guys.

I have pages of analysis that you'll probably end up ignoring so I'll leave it out, but I'm going to leave you with some last thoughts.

Scum ] Elbirn --- Pie - Eek = Monkey = Acryon - Cheeto -- Boonskies ----- Annie [ Town

So what does this even mean? You're gonna flake/replace out, or you think you're gonna be the next NK?...

At any rate, please, bring on the analysis. I'd actually like to see your thought process, because you really don't show it in thread. Like at all. I don't do well with the whole "lack of transparency" thing.

What happened to you being angry with me? Now you just seem sort of resigned.

What is this? I'm supposed to be in a constant fit of rage the entire game? I was mad about your crappy push, but that was weeks ago. At this point it's just....I get it dawg, you think I'm scum.

Also
>Being a redditor

Stay pleb.

I did this to Reinoe too. Fake hammered then forgot it wasn't a hammer. haha. Thought Elbirn might slip himself up after. I still believe it's Pie and Elbirn.

This post. It's interesting.

My initial reaction was that I can't imagine why a Scum-Boon would try to make me scumslip by fakehammering me. Like, that literally makes less sense than nonsense. It's simply not a thought process that a scum could have. Which would mean conftown Boon.

But now I'm skeptical, because his initial "hammer" doesn't seem faked at all, and his attitude surrounding it conveys a certainty that it was the hammer even after I reacted to it. Then he...Claims he forgot it wasn't a hammer. Which would indicate he didn't actually have any kind of plan, and it just sounds like making up shit for towncred.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this one?

Also, Boon. If your intent was to make me "slip", why do you not read my reaction as a townslip?

@Elbirn - go back and read Boon vs FF. If you think FF scum is arguing in that sense to a scum partner, I don't even know how to help you. Come to think of it, I'm going to go back and look at my reads from that time. Maybe him and I started fighting because I was onto something. More on this later.

Also I couldn't find this argument at all, and am still kinda hoping you'll point me to it. Fanks.

------------------------

So, in order from OP, here are the living players.

Elbirn
Boonskiies
Cheetory6
eektor
acryon
MonkeyMan576
RadiantCowbells - Town Innocent Child
pieguyn

I'm innocent, RC is mod confirmed innocent. With no counter claims and so on and so forth, I believe Cheetory and Acryon are conftown. From my perspective, this leaves the following, resorted from most likely scum to least, in my opinion.

MonkeyMan576
eektor
Boonskiies
pieguyn

I still want that long reread I mentioned. But looking at what every player has done. Pie's a hard townread. What she's said and done makes sense. Her thought process makes sense and genuinely seems to be looking for scum. I'm open to anyone saying otherwise if they can find a single scummy thing she's done, because I can't. Boon is Boon, I really don't know how to read Boon anymore. I don't want him to live to lylo because the stress will kill me, and yet I don't want him dead as much as others. If you're scum, Boon, then gg.

Eektor and Monkeyman have, imo, been playing in a manner that avoids attention. Eektor I can see as being very inconsistent with his reads. Yesterday I was prob town and Monkey was probscum, then today he decides monkey is most likely town because of a reason that I think makes Monkey most likely scum (FF's wagon on Monkey) and starts going after me for...Some....reason? Eektor, why do you think I'm scum now? Because you haven't made that clear at all from what I can tell. Or whatever reasons you think I'm scum now didn't phase you yesterday? Why not?

[Elbirn]

Scum overreacting because they got caught on something they feel they shouldn't have. *yawn*

It's POE'ing with the impressions. I think you're role fishing, because you are role fishing.

@Cheetory/Acryon - can we get an Elbirn lynch so I can prove my Elbirn - Pie buddy buddy reads are correct? Unless you want to lynch Pie, because I'm totally all for that.

@Elbirn - I don't think it's alignment indicative, your reaction to the hammer. The last time this happened the person tried faking it like he thought it was the actual hammer too. I don't think it makes you any more or less scum.

The only pairing of scum that makes sense to me is Pie/Elbirn or Pie/eektor. Either way, if we stick to that lynch pool, town should win the game.

This entire post gives me cancer.

Lines 1 & 2: Overconfident assertion that he is right, blatant disregard for reason and throws all Pie responses out the window.

Line 3: More on this later.

Line 4: This part actually almost makes sense! I entirely agree that my reaction can't be alignment indicative. *I* know it's a townslip, but that same reaction could just as easily come from scum making shit up, and unless I'm able to prove with absolute certainty that 1. I truly believed I was hammered, and 2. as hammered scum I would spill the beans and not just troll until host does an official flip, it means nothing.

Now here's why it's shit. If my reaction means nothing to you, why would you fakehammer in the first place for a reaction? Oh, right. Because you're making shit up for brownie points.

Line 5: K. I get the Pielbirn connection, everyone does, but where in the blue hell do you get Piektor? I'm reading your posts, and you haven't mentioned Eektor ANYWHERE as a scum read, let alone elaborated on any kind of connection between Pie & Eektor. This plus line 3, plus the following...

VOTE: Cheetory

Nah, he's scum.

Although, I totally am for an Acryon lynch toDay.

I'm willing to lynch eektor toDay. What's your reaction to that, Pie? Also, Elbirn, you'd be fine with an eektor lynch, wouldn't you? I see now reason why not. Unless that's your actual buddy, Pie.

You don't actually have any reads, do you Boon? You just have a list of people you want dead and you really don't care who, and every single one of them you have put zero thought into. Your thought process is non-existent. Your pushes are bad and you should feel bad.

And you know something? The only people not on that "to kill" list are yourself, the confirmed innocent RC, aaand Monkey. Who you explicitly defend.

But I don't think FF traitor would necessarily be bussing Monkey so hard. I'm backing off of you for now, Monkey.

Sounds like you don't give a shit who dies, just as long as it's not you or your partner.

@Elbirn - FF vs Boon interaction happens around page 19.

That whole interaction gives no alignment indication at all. If anything it's FF slightly pushing on his teammates for cred/attention again.

[Elbirn]

People who have played with Boon before: Is this Town-Boon to you? I really want to know. Because as scummy as he is, I'm left wondering if maybe, just maybe, this is just how he is. His thought process is clearly lacking, but I don't know if that's just a sign of his intelligence and not his alignment. And I'm sorry but I can't think of a nice way to say that.

[Elbirn]

Yeah I don't see how their claiming has anything to do with my point. You've been scattershooting everyone. Everyone except one person. It smells like shit.

[Elbirn]

[Elbirn]

Boon you're an idiot. And that face was my disappointment in you.

[Elbirn]

Also, Elbirn, if I was scum, who do you think my partner would be? You'd say anything, wouldn't you? You think I'm partners with Monkey?

HA! I've been pushing him all game except the early game. Until toDay, I haven't. Think I'm scum with eektor? Fine, let's lynch him then? If he's scum, we catch scum, if not, I prove the scum team is you and Pie. Think I'm scum with Pie? HA! That's funny...Think I'm scum with you? Then you are seriously confused on who your partner is...Cheetory? Sure, if cheetory's claim is fake, I guess that one could make sense. What about Radiant/Acryon? You probably want to say one of them are my buddies, don't yuh? don't yuh?!?!!?

No, I'd say Monkey. I don't care that you've been "pushing him all game", Monkey is scum. Your wifom bullshit is just that, bullshit. "Oh well I've been scumreading someone whole game so neenerneenerneener we're not buddiessss" <--- This doesn't work. We've gone over this.

[Elbirn]

Oh, and Boon, you still haven't responded to several of my points and instead just went off on one topic. To repeat: How in the blue hell are Eektor and Pie possibly scum together?

[Elbirn]

Annie ftw.

Quiet, the grownups are talking.

Seriously would you just replace out already?

[Elbirn]

Oh, and Boon, you still haven't responded to several of my points and instead just went off on one topic. To repeat: How in the blue hell are Eektor and Pie possibly scum together?

I'm just gonna post this until it's answered.

[Elbirn]

@Elbirn

, I have to be honest I'm like slightly more wary of you now with FF's flip. I've been being lazy with this game, but I can't help but feel like FF's roleblock was intended to protect someone that I was suspicious of and you were at the top of the list. :/

Can someone also give their thoughts about what they think scum would have done in response to softcopclaim that they knew wasn't true? I'm trying to sort reactions to what I did and I got less than I'd hoped for.

1. I'll admit, this makes sense, and I don't know why FF would role block you. Your other scumreads at that stage, based on 696, where Toon and Acryon. Toon we now know is town, and if Acryon is scum, that's some bullshit because it means there's another town power role out there who, instead of claiming like they should, is letting scum coast with a fakeclaim. So Acryon = conftown as far as I'm concerned.

The only answer I can come up with is that FF was PoE'ing for a PR, decided you were worth a shot, and blocked you. That or laying a false trail; you were pretty vocal in your scumreads, a blocked you would throw even more suspicion on everyone you scumread.

Speaking of the PoE'ing part...Did you lay any breadcrumbs for your role early on that FF might have picked up on?

2. I'm assuming softcopclaim is you Vs. Acryon earlier today?

Sounds like WIFOM. I'd think any town would vote with the cop claim, and a scum would be more likely to call bullshit. But then if the town play is to follow the cop, then wouldn't the correct scum play be to do as a townie would do? Unless they were dead certain they could prove the claim wrong, and thus invoke some kind of Lynch All Liars policy against the fakeclaimer... And then again our confinnocent still thinks you're lying, so frankly I have no idea.

Also, can we all try to tone down the rudeness? I know I'm equally guilty of this sometimes, but let's try to have fun while trying to sort through this.

*sigh* You're right Cheeto. I'll admit I've been kind of a dick this game. I'm just frustrated with the way this games going, and...how do I be diplomatic about this....A perceived lack of effort from certain individuals, and some whose arguments/pushes I find lackluster..

My last comment to RC was kinda out of line, and I apologize, RC.

For what it's worth I'm having fun regardless, I'm just trying to not get mislynched cuz that's probably going to be a game loser for us :/ Next round is lylo isn't it? With Boon, Monkey, AND Eektor still alive, and with several having a scumread on Pie that I still don't get, others throwing suspicion on our conftowns for God knows why? I don't see a town win unless we lynch scum today.

Like, I don't mean to brag, but I'm pretty sure that my analysis is both broader and more in-depth than anyone else's analysis.

I'm just not posting it because if I post a lot of info, people get fatigued to it and ignore it, so I'm condensing my reads into basic thoughts for people to keep in mind later.

Dawg just post it, all I've wanted from you all game is to say something meaningful. It could be wrong and I wouldn't care. It could be a list of reasons why I'm scummy and I'd read it with a smile on my face because you finally said something.

------------------

K, so to everyone saying scumteam is Elbirn and Pie. I want to know your reasons for scumreading us individually. Preflip associations = crap. I want you all to think about your read on us as individuals, and in relation to our only confmafia, FormerFish. Meaning no "Elbirn and Pie are scum together because I say so, there's totes a link between them!" No, look at what we've done and said, or what FF has done and said in relation to us. Minimum 300 word essay, doublespaced times new roman in size 12 font, due on my desk Thursday.

[Elbirn]

Counter claim = Cheetory or Acryon are scum, probably Acryon? No?

[Elbirn]

We don't know scum's power. At this point, I'd believe Acryon's claim over Cheetory's, actually. There's definitely some sort of vigilante out there, whereas I guess mafia tracker is still a possibility. I don't think it's dumb for a PR to stay hidden at this point.

Well if there IS another PR, I think the best play is to claim. Because I don't expect there to be yet another town PR. And if there is, we need to sort that out TODAY and not tomorrow when we're in lylo, because that is a crappy position to be in.

Claim today: We can work out whether or not it's possible for there to be four town PR's, if there is we're one person closer to PoE'ing the scum, if there isn't then we have to work out who of Cheetory/Acryon/??? is the liar, because one of them is guaranteed scum.

Claim tomorrow: We now have one lynch to determine who the liar is. Scum probably wins. In fact I'd go so far as to say that if anyone PR claims tomorrow, I'll be pushing their lynch. Cuz I really, really don't see why a town PR would hide until tomorrow and put us in such a shitty spot.

How does it look manufactured? At all? This is how I always post around this point in games.

Also, @Elbirn - Pie and eektor are scumbuddies if somehow you flip town, due to POE for me. Only way this isn't possible is if somehow Cheetory is a mafia tracker. which I guess I could believe, but that's not today. After elbirn flips, we'll have an extra day on our hands. It'll set up for even more POE due to having an extra person out of Pie/Myself/Eektor lynched tomorrow. And then it's almost a surefire town win. Also, we could possibly even end the game with a town win tomorrow regardless.

Why isn't Monkey potential scum? Also your conclusion ignores the fact that NK will almost surely be one of RC/Cheeto/Acryon due to their conftowniness.

Enjoyed this site while it lasted, but an overzealous mod combo'd with ambiguous rules and unequal application has soured it for me.

@Mod: Replace me please.

Baby come back
You can blame it all on me

Nah for real don't go.

I think Monkey is town.

Why?

1418 rings scum for me.

The more the day goes by the more sure I am of a Fish/Elbirn/Pie scum team.

It's possible, of course. But the way Elbirn and pie are refusing to attack each other, despite the obvious questionable behavior to everyone else, just leads to a certain picture. Plus Elbirn/pie fits with Fish more than eektor.

What is this? I'm not going to attack the only townread I have outside of our conftowns. And also it sounds like you're stating that we should...stop not-attacking each other because it's questionable? We're scum because we're not manufacturing our behavior to fit what town wants. This is crap.

I want to know how Elbirn/Pie fits with Fish, and how Eektor doesn't.

[Elbirn]

1404, 1411, 1430 = Goodposting. Add in my previous suspicions and the fact that much to my chagrin a Monkey lynch clearly isn't happening...

Hey Boon, you're at L-1. Gonna quickhammer?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: BoonSkiies

[Elbirn]

I kind of think Eektor's town. Possibly for dumb reasons, but still.
I feel like the traitor mechanics this game are "if you shoot them, they join you" and I think mafia would be aware of that.
Eektor being like "I think mafia killed their scummate" feels vaguely like a townslip.

See I'm not certain what the townslip IS. Root of my confusion being that I don't know what you mean when you state what you think traitor mechanics are. What do you mean "shoot them"? NK'ing a traitor shouldn't kill them? Walk me through this plez.

[Elbirn]

Nvm I just read the traitor page on the wiki. In some setups NK'ing a traitor recruits them. Got it.

Here's the thing, your townslip relies on that being the case, when it's just as likely that mod has a traitor mechanic of either
1. Traitor can in fact be NK'd
2. Traitor can't be NK'd

And according to the wiki all 3 of these variants are common.

[Elbirn]

Huh. Okay well that makes a lot of sense, I'd say there's a very high probability that's how traitor mechanics were intended this game. But couldn't scum-Eektor make shit like that up still?

[Elbirn]

I don't know, I'd expect scum to do whatever's necessary to live. Making up a townslip would be a good way to convince others of your innocence. But the fact that *you* pointed it out gives it some credence I feel. It also doesn't seem like it's very likely to have worked, seeing as it wasn't very obvious, it was almost missed, and relies pretty heavily on an assumption about gamesetup. So it'd be a hard slip to manufacture, and I'm not certain that scum would think of it in the first place.

It's not 100% town, agreed, but it is interesting and I'd support not-lynching him today.

[Elbirn]

This completely contradicts what he said earlier. He was saying that he doesn't see how Pie and eektor could be scum buddies, and I had to go and explain that to him, and now he's bringing how eektor

doesn't

make sense not fitting in.

I'm not getting lynched today.

Dat misrep.

I asked you why you think Pie and Eektor are scumbuddies.
I asked Monkey why he thought Pie and Eektor could not.

Neither of those questions were my opinions, they were just that, questions. Me trying to get into another persons head, make them elaborate upon their reasoning.

Elb, you are confident as fuck man, that is a totally legit reason to town read someone.

Just saying.

Oh look, another one!

Go read the posts preceding 442.

Done? K.

So Monkeyman townread me early for being "confident", and I called him out on that being dumb. FF's response is sarcasm and a jab at Monkey, it is not in support of me.

Wait is FF saying that he thinks Elbirn is town for his confidence in that quote?
I've been reading it wrong all this time if so q.q

Yes, that's exactly what he's saying.

No, no it's not.

+2 strikes againt Boon imo. This is just bringing up pointless shit to attempt to make me look bad to save his own ass. This is scum guys.

[Elbirn]

This completely contradicts what he said earlier. He was saying that he doesn't see how Pie and eektor could be scum buddies, and I had to go and explain that to him, and now he's bringing how eektor

doesn't

make sense not fitting in.

I'm not getting lynched today.

Dat misrep.

I asked you why you think Pie and Eektor are scumbuddies.
I asked Monkey why he thought Pie and Eektor could not.

Neither of those questions were my opinions, they were just that, questions. Me trying to get into another persons head, make them elaborate upon their reasoning.

Wait hang on, not even.
I asked monkey why Eektor couldn't be scum with FF. Jeez you twisted what I said so bad I couldn't even recognize it.

[Elbirn]

Oh, and Boon, you still haven't responded to several of my points and instead just went off on one topic. To repeat: How in the blue hell are Eektor and Pie possibly scum together?

False. He slipped again. Trying to misrep me. Lynch this guy.

Oh, and cheetory, he keeps misrepping me and discrediting anything I say. That's definitely making me scum read him.

Look at this. Just look at it. Is anyone actually reading this shit?

I asked you, several, several times before you decided to answer. Why do you think Eektor + Pie = possibly scum. Now you're saying that I didn't, and you even quoted the post where I asked you. And you're calling it a misrep.

What the literal fuck is this hell.

@Elbirn - let's pretend you're town, I want to see your thoughts on something...on the off chance that Elbirn vs Boon is TvT, who's scum?

Monkey and Eektor. But I'm fairly certain team scum is you and Monkey.

[Elbirn]

Cheetory, just read that fucking post. He's slipping!!! I did answer pie and eektor, and you are changing it up saying Monkey and Eektor, and then you realized you slipped, and now you're trying to change it up by MISREPPINGG ME AGAIN!. Elbirn scum reading Monkey strongly is a big reason I'm town reading Monkey. Formerfish/Monkey/Elbirn are all connected somehow, they just are t the full scum team. Replace monkey with Pie.

Okay, I really, reaaaallly want you go to back and reread the last few posts we've had in our back and forth. Because I just reread it, just to make sure I'm not going insane, and no, I definitely said exactly what happened. You're either not understanding what's being said, or you're doing a very good job of ignoring what I'm saying and screaming "Misrep!" over all of my arguments in hopes that it will be more convincing than an actual counter-argument.

Speaking of which, your reaction to being pushed on is really telling imo. Very defensive, twisting words, shouting "misrep" and "discrediting" at everything without actually having a discussion.

@Elbirn You say one of your main scum reads in Monkey. Why do you think FF being a traitor would bus Monkey hard throughout the whole game if Monkey was scum?

I could see FF pushing on Scum-Monkey for a couple of reasons. Starting the push, that strong, that early, with little evidence? It's almost tongue in cheek. "Hey team-scum, I know who you arrreee notice me senpaii~~". It's an attention getter. If the lynch ever went through, +towncred for FF. If we accept the probability that NK'ing FF = "recruited" into team scum, getting towncred would be a good first step towards getting NK'd. Furthermore, if the lynch didn't go through and Monkey lived (which, obviously, happened) he's set up his partner with some nice WIFOM.

[Elbirn]

His hyper-obvious breadcrumb would also fit in with the theory that he wanted to be NK'd.

[Elbirn]

*yawn*

Still waiting on your oodles of analysis btw.

[Elbirn]

It's possible, of course. But the way Elbirn and pie are refusing to attack each other, despite the obvious questionable behavior to everyone else, just leads to a certain picture. Plus Elbirn/pie fits with Fish more than eektor.

funny that you say this, but when I ask about what "questionable behavior" is coming from Elbirn, you don't actually answer the question.

The fact that he rarely interacted with Fish, and now he's rarely confronting you, despite the fact that he seems to be a very opinionated and well spoken person in general.

To me it seems scum are going out of their way to avoid each other in this game

, of course, in doing so it only makes it more obvious who is scum, because the rest of the town seems to be fairly on the same page.

*opens Monkeys ISO*
*Searches "Boon"*
*18 instances*

Tell me what you think of Boon, monkey.

Oh, other gems from my brief search of the Monkey ISO.

I hate the RVS so I'm not going to vote.

Don't wanna vote your scum buddy as a joke and have it come back to haunt you?

lol yep you got it.

What if this is just really cheeky scum telling the truth?

Is rvs something you always avoid participating in?

no, I'm not scum. No, I don't always avoid it, but it becomes more apparent it is useless every game I play in.

If you'll look to your left, you'll see Team-Scum having a tea-party.

Town:

Monkeyman576
RadiantCowbells(innocent child)
Elbirn

Formerfish

Cheetory6

Boonskies

Null:

Futan
Toon Fighter
eektor
SiX
acryon

Scum

VictorDeAngelo
copper223

And on your right, the worlds crappiest reads list. And hey, look who's in the "Town-read" pile! Hmmmmm.

[Elbirn]

@Boon- Im pretty sure you have your reads backwards. Monkey is the scum and VDA is the guy who is tilting at windmills.

*snip*

What in the blue fuck is page 9?
-

Boon, VDA is town Monkey is scum.

And what do you mean that you are changing your rvs vote? I don’t see VDAs post as fluff, so I would request that you explain exactly what you are describing here. And I don’t think their interactions points to VDA scum here. Im just not following you here.

The way FormerFish asserts this, multiple times, feels...Awkward. It's like he's trying to grab Boon by the shoulders and shout at him, "I know that Monkey is scum". Idk, someone else read this whole post and tell me if I'm imagining this plz.

[Elbirn]

@1501: oooo ya got me

@1502: I don't think he's trying to convince town-you, I think he's telling scum-you "I know who you guys are".

[Elbirn]

1. We've gone over this, monkey town = eektor scum by PoE.

2. I don't negotiate with terrorists.

[Elbirn]

@Elbirn

, so you think scum is sitting in Monkey/Eektor/Boon? Can you talk to me about why Pie is a townread for you?

I want an acryon replacement before we go into night cycle. Please nobody be dumb and force a hammer before that. A fresh perspective from an almost certainly townslot will probably help.

Can I just save us all time and link her ISO?

Seriously she's one of the few people in this game who actually makes any damn sense. I like her analysis, I like her thought process, it all reads as genuine to me. Go read 929, 930, & 932. Tell me that isn't a damn townie entrance. I don't agree with 100% of it, but it seems to me that she's been trying to game-solve this whole time, and if scum can fake it that well, then congratulations Team-Scum, ya got me. It's also interesting how many townreads she threw out there, and thoroughly explained WHY. I don't see scum being that generous with townreads, nor do I see them giving an in depth explanation for every single one. Her stances on several players in particular, I felt, went against the grain; Monkeyman, Boon, and myself being townread at this stage I found to be notable, considering many were against us, particularly Monkey and myself.

In the rereading I did for this post, I had an initial worry about her stance on FF, she threw out a townread for him and when I prodded her about it her answer was very brief... and then I remembered; FF was the traitor, so *Team-Scum didn't know he was with them*. And that's it, that's the only scummy thing I could see.

I'm also a big fan of the fact that she pushes people and has actual arguments/discussions with people instead of making commentary and vaguely sniping like everyone else. And her frustration with Eektor/Boon reads genuine to me. All of this, imo, is coming from town. Add the fact that the only people who really seem to be pushing Pie/Elbirn = Team Scum (aside from RC) are my scumreads? Nah.

I've just finished reading her whole ISO. I see no scum here. If anyone wants to come up with a case against her, instead of just saying "lul Pie is scum" with ZERO fucking reasoning behind it, I will consider that case. I am willing to consider the possibility that I am wrong, I mean fuck I'm wrong all the time. But considering I've yet to hear a decent reason for her being scum, from anyone? Until that changes, there is absolutely no chance I'm voting her today.

[Elbirn]

It's possible, of course. But the way Elbirn and pie are refusing to attack each other, despite the obvious questionable behavior to everyone else, just leads to a certain picture. Plus Elbirn/pie fits with Fish more than eektor.

funny that you say this, but when I ask about what "questionable behavior" is coming from Elbirn, you don't actually answer the question.

The fact that he rarely interacted with Fish, and now he's rarely confronting you, despite the fact that he seems to be a very opinionated and well spoken person in general.

To me it seems scum are going out of their way to avoid each other in this game

, of course, in doing so it only makes it more obvious who is scum, because the rest of the town seems to be fairly on the same page.

*opens Monkeys ISO*
*Searches "Boon"*
*18 instances*

Tell me what you think of Boon, monkey.

Maybe I wasn't totally clear that this was a question here, but I really do want an answer to this, and I'm kinda tired of feeling like all of my questions are ignored.

Monkeyman, I want to know what you think of Boon and why.

[Elbirn]

@Elbirn You say one of your main scum reads in Monkey. Why do you think FF being a traitor would bus Monkey hard throughout the whole game if Monkey was scum?

I could see FF pushing on Scum-Monkey for a couple of reasons. Starting the push, that strong, that early, with little evidence? It's almost tongue in cheek. "Hey team-scum, I know who you arrreee notice me senpaii~~". It's an attention getter. If the lynch ever went through, +towncred for FF. If we accept the probability that NK'ing FF = "recruited" into team scum, getting towncred would be a good first step towards getting NK'd. Furthermore, if the lynch didn't go through and Monkey lived (which, obviously, happened) he's set up his partner with some nice WIFOM.

So, you're saying the main reason you suspect Monkey is scum is because FF was trying to get scum's attention so he could be killed or recruited at night?

...Well that's one way to misinterpret what I said. You asked me why FF traitor would bus Monkey, not "Why do you suspect Monkey". Is the association with FF a factor? Certainly. It is not my sole reasoning however.

So why else do I think Monkey is scum? Again, can I just link the ISO? Read it. Just read it. Clear association with FF, lack of content, vague and fallacious sniping instead of a coherent case. Even when he thinks someone is scum, he doesn't push it. So far this game he's defended himself from FF, made pointless commentary and voted on whatever the leading wagon was. And that's it. So far today all he's done is say "Pie and Elbirn are scum" on repeat, with zero backing evidence. It's crap. It's all crap.

[Elbirn]

Beaten by a little girl... HA!

Riveting commentary. very helpful.

Why don't you do something fucking useful for a change instead of baiting me into flipping out on you?

[Elbirn]

I mean, what you've been doing isn't useful really either. We're at a dead stalemate in our game, and really can't do much else to try and push either of our cases. It's why I'm getting so frustrated. We all know you're scum, you just don't accept the reasons for why we think you're scum and it frustrates you.

Or, you know, maybe I'm town and I'm frustrated with the fact that all of this games Village Idiots (plus Eektor) are wagoning me based on reasons that have yet to be explained. And that they're going to win by just shouting "Elbirn is scum" over and over again until everyone believes it. And that my mislynch is almost certainly gg.

I'd also like to know how what I'm doing isn't useful, because frankly I feel like I've put more into this game than everyone voting me combined. Please, enlighten me. Because right now this just sounds like you vaguely trying to discredit me, again while asserting that I am scum with nothing backing it.

[Elbirn]

How about we save Boon vs Elbirn until tomorrow, and lynch Pie? Yeah? Yeah.

You know, rereading this, this is kinda shitty. Deflecting attention off of our 1v1 in hopes that we'll compromise on someone else, even though I'm clearly your strongest scumread, and you only think Pie is scum in relation to me? Very survivalist. Very...Not coming from a town's thought process.

[Elbirn]

Boon I want to know your read on Monkey and why.

[Elbirn]

How about we save Boon vs Elbirn until tomorrow, and lynch Pie? Yeah? Yeah.

You know, rereading this, this is kinda shitty. Deflecting attention off of our 1v1 in hopes that we'll compromise on someone else, even though I'm clearly your strongest scumread, and you only think Pie is scum in relation to me? Very survivalist. Very...Not coming from a town's thought process.

I wasn't serious. It's obvious I wasn't serious. Don't act like I was trying to make it serious at all. You and pie are both scum, and I don't want either of you lynched over the other. If for some reason everyone started voting Pie, I would lynch her too.

I've explained my read on monkey. Maybe not in one single post. I town read him early in the game, started to scum read him, ff flipped, and you started going hard on him. My biggest scum read going hard on someone, I'm probably going to town read. I don't see any possible way of you two being scum together, and if you are, GG because I won't lynch monkey after we lynch Elbirn.

1. Okay, let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say it's not serious. Let's say it's OBVIOUSLY not serious and I'm the big bad meanie who is misrepping you. K. You still want a Pie lynch. Which you've yet to explain how she's scum, except in relation to me, which is, once again, crap.

2. That's great, but that's not what I asked for. I asked for you to give me a post explaining why you townread Monkey. Your response to this question was "I townread him because I townread him and I scumread you", which is literally nothing.


I want you to give me an explanation for why Pie is scum, without bringing me into it. And I want an explanation for why Monkey is town.

[Elbirn]

Village idiot implies he thinks we're town. This is a scum slip.

I want you to go back and reread what was said, and then apologize again like you did before.

[Elbirn]

Oh, no, I get it now, apologies. Your statement is that the definition of a Village Idiot is town. That ignores the fact that my definition is anyone who is an idiot. Try again.

[Elbirn]

It still isn't like that. From your perspective, if you were actually town, you wouldn't see my play as idiot like, you'd just see it as scum.

I'm pretty sure I can think your arguments are stupid while still thinking you're scum. Those two things aren't mutually exclusive.

See, the logic would have made more sense on your part if we actually accepted you as town. We don't. Except Elbirn, but he doesn't count because he's protecting his scum buddy.

You're disregarding the whole post based on a throwaway line at the end about all unknown alignment players being on my wagon. *yawn* Try harder.

[Elbirn]

Look I'm sorry man, I'm not trying to be a disruption. I really don't want to be the source of anyone having a bad time with this game. Boon is just legitimately spouting nonsense and I can't help calling him out on it. I know it's a childish argument to go "But he started it!", but that's really where I'm at right now.

For what it's worth, I just really thought about it and realized how utterly fucked we are. Because Team-Scum is on my wagon, plus 1 other unknown, plus RC. There's no way any of them will change their votes, scum is scum, unknown is just bad, RC is a deadslot. Even if Acryon replacement votes Boon, we're deadlocked and wind up with a no lynch. This doesn't end any other way but me dying or compromise voting WITH scum to kill my townread. Not happening. So I'm dead.

Moving on to tomorrow, the quartet of nonsense unanimously votes Pie and then scum wins. We really can't win this game.

[Elbirn]

If it helps I can just ignore Boon from now on whenever he says something I deem stupid. I.e., arguing over semantics and nitpicking my words and so on. I'll answer questions and ask questions, but not respond to crap?

[Elbirn]

Look I'm sorry man, I'm not trying to be a disruption. I really don't want to be the source of anyone having a bad time with this game. Boon is just legitimately spouting nonsense and I can't help calling him out on it. I know it's a childish argument to go "But he started it!", but that's really where I'm at right now.

For what it's worth, I just really thought about it and realized how utterly fucked we are. Because Team-Scum is on my wagon, plus 1 other unknown, plus RC. There's no way any of them will change their votes, scum is scum, unknown is just bad, RC is a deadslot. Even if Acryon replacement votes Boon, we're deadlocked and wind up with a no lynch. This doesn't end any other way but me dying or compromise voting WITH scum to kill my townread. Not happening. So I'm dead.

Moving on to tomorrow, the quartet of nonsense unanimously votes Pie and then scum wins. We really can't win this game.

Are you saying town is in trouble if we lynch you, because if you turn up town, we would all move to lynch pie? If you actually flip town (which I highly doubt), I wouldn't be interested in a pie lynch tomorrow.

So when I flip town, who are you voting for tomorrow?

Why would scum not jump on a soft cop claim that someone is guilty when they know they are town? So if you shift to acryon being town, it should cause you to doubt your Elbirn town read. You are too sure Elbirn is town. You are so sure of Elbirn being town, that if we lynch Boon and he flips town, you still wouldn't doubt Elbirn is town.

This kinda sucks. I actually started thinking Cheeto was Cop D2. After D1 he was FoS'ing me pretty hard, and Victor's dying words were basically "whoever is investigative, target Elbirn or Acryon". After D1, Cheeto didn't push me at ALL, but he did push Acryon if I'm not mistaken? This gave me the impression that he was cop, he targeted me, and since I came up innocent he moved on to the alternative. D3 he told us to kill Acryon and I correctly interpreted him as implying he had a guilty.

Granted, none of that was actually *right* per se, as Cheeto was supposedly blocked N1 and moved off of me for....I don't know why. And he was a tracker, not a cop. But the point is, I already had a basis for believing a Cheeto cop claim, and when he did claim, I bought it.

That last part there also sucks. Why am I guaranteed scum if Boon flips town?

Town I would think would be more suspicious than just jump in with any person claiming a guilty.

Why do I think you being so sure of Elbirn is scummy? First of all, as far as I know you don't have a history of playing with him. You aren't saying guys listen this is Elbirn's town game, he isn't scum here. Second, your reasons listed does not warrant such a hard town read (you are acting like he is a confirmed town). Third, this kind of hard town read would make sense if you were a cop and got an innocent from him, but if you were a cop you wouldn't jump in and vote for acryon if Cheetory was soft claiming a cop with a guilty. Also, it would not explain Elbirn's hard town read on you (so much that you are pretty much a confirmed town to him).

1. Discrediting a townread based on a lack of meta, and for a player who has a whopping TWO completed games? This sucks. The implication that you need to play a game with a person in order to read them is blatantly false.

2. This is entirely opinion.

3. I don't think you need to be a cop to have a hard townread. Again, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

[Elbirn]

I can't even really fault you that much at this point.
I'm just frustrated in general that whatever stance I end up taking here will quite possibly make me an idiot if I end up choosing wrong and it feels like nobody is trying to help me get to the right choice other than you and I don't know if you're scum trying to screw with me q.q

I'm gonna try not to look at this game for a day and instead focus on metadiving Boon/Elbirn scum meta and see what it looks like.

No, I think you can. Fault me, that is. I've been a bit more...Rough around the edges this game. I don't know, this particular game is just really getting under my skin, and I feel like somewhere here I crossed the line from just being aggressive to being downright mean. Which is odd in the first place because I think I've always been a bit more...Meek, in my other games. Maybe that was newbie jitters, maybe my personality really is just being an asshole. I don't know. At any rate I apologize to all, particularly to Boon and RC, they've obviously gotten the worst of it

I agree with you on not looking at the game for a while, I've been thinking about V/LA'ing for this weekend, calming down, and coming back to this game on monday with a fresh perspective on things.

Oh, you mentioned meta. Again, only two games. But if you click my wiki link I've got links to both there, one town and one scum, conveniently enough. ^_^

[Elbirn]

First of all Cheetory was voting you Day 2 until he moved to acryon. Are you telling me you thought he was a cop that investigated you, went on to vote for you and then decide to switch to acryon? If you are town, why would you think he would be a cop that investigated you and then end up voting for you? Also, I didn't say you were guaranteed scum but in a way I guess you would be by PoE (just like you said if monkey is town I must be scum by PoE). With no counter claims to Cheetory and acryon, they must be town, RC is confirmed town. Which leaves me, you, pie, Monkey, Boon. I know I'm town and if Boon flips town that leaves pie, you, and Monkey. With two scum left, out of that pool of 3, the only thing that would make sense is you and pie.

Okay, so you're right, he did vote me early D2. I was wrong. But it doesn't change that what I said was genuinely my thought process. At some point mid/late D2, I thought about the fact that Cheeto wasn't pushing me, despite having me as a top scumread D1, and a little lightbulb went off in my head that said "Hey, he's the cop". Feel free to think that's crap, but that's what happened in my lil ol' noggin.

1. I'm not discrediting a town read, I'm discrediting a hard town read (like I said earlier you are acting like he's confirmed town). Who besides you guys hard town reading each other has a hard town read on either of you guys? Forget about your scum reads, leaving Cheetory, acryon, and RC. None of them are hard town reading either of you guys.

2. Maybe but if it was obvious what about the others?

3. This goes back to your 2nd point and my answer to it.

1. What does the opinion of the others have to do with anything? Even if it did matter, I'd say Cheetory is leaning towards our side in this argument, Acryon idk, but he's replacing out anyway, and RC....Well RC has made her opinions clear, and I don't agree with them but they are what they are. I don't see how it matters either way.

2/3. I'm not sure what you're saying here?

[Elbirn]

Yeah...

Anyone up for a compromise lynch on Monkey? No? Just me?

[Elbirn]

I mean, I'll read them. I'm sure Cheeto will too. Maybe there's a useful tell or two in there, who knows. But the purpose of meta seems kinda defeated when you're so self aware of it, and it feels weird that you assert that certain behaviors of yours are town and so should be ignored. Like 1572, okay, great, but now that we know you're aware of that, you could very well be scum manufacturing this scenario because you think it'll give you cred.

You link us your meta, and you make it useless in doing so :/

[Elbirn]

Elbirn's scumgame looks more familiar to this game than Boon's scumgame to this game. Zzzz.
I want an Elbirn case.

UNVOTE:

Elaborate on what makes you think Boon is town here? Convince me he's town and I'll eat rope.

And while I've got ya, I want to know how confident you are in Eektor being town. Cuz the only thing I like about the Eektor-town theory is the supposed "townslip" and I don't even know how reliable that is.

Elbirn case:
Avoided Fish for most of day one and two
Now is avoiding Pie.
Is being pretty OMGUSy by targeting me after I targeted him.

lol

1. If I were scum I wouldn't have known Fish was scum. A lot of people avoided Fish btw, he did a good job of avoiding attention.
2. If I'm avoiding Pie, putting a spotlight on the two of us is a helluva way to do it. But reading further down you say it's because I won't attack her. And why would I attack my townread?
3. You're cute. I'm pretty sure I was on your ass day 1. I'm pretty sure my reasons for going after you today were well explained. I'm pretty sure using buzzwords to discredit another player is scumtastic.

[Elbirn]

So Boonscum is more reserved than Boontown? Do you think this is something that can easily be faked?
I want to read his games too, but I still feel wary of him linking his own meta, being so self aware. :/ I especially want to see how he acts when he's being pushed on, because in that one game I skimmed over at work, where he got lynched D1, he didn't seem to really give a shit. Like he was mad I guess, but he didn't flip out like he's doing here.

I'm surprised anyone thinks my scumgame was elaborate. I had no plan, I replaced in so I didn't even get to talk to my partner N0 and he died D1. I just played as pro-town as I could (short of outing myself/partner) and hoped for the best.

Hm. Do you see any differences in my behavior in this game and my scumgame? I was told in that game that I was "confident", but in a scummish way. Is there a difference here?

@MOD:

I think we need a prod for RC, but I'm not 100%, my sense of time is warped Also, status report on an Acryon replacement?

[Elbirn]

I don't know that you CAN'T 100% fake your town meta. Call that inexperience but use of meta isn't something I've really learned yet. And I'm not discounting all of it, and I don't know why you're saying I am. I'm just taking it with a grain of salt. I don't like the way he asserts "I'll never do this as town", or "I'm doing this and this is a town tell for me", because if he knows that, then he can manufacture that as scum. And that just seems really, really obvious to me. :/ I'm open to a case for him being town, and I'm open to a meta analysis on him, but come on. Do ya see where I'm coming from on this at least?

[Elbirn]

This isn't necessarily true. I know a lot of people who play scum and don't join any of the town wagons. That is definitely not the only way it could be town driven.

. . .

from an outside POV, if Elbirn and I aren't both scum,

there necessarily has to be at least 1 scum on the Elbirn wagon, since there isn't anyone else left.

this is what I'm saying here. do you disagree?

See, this is biased logic. From an outside perspective...you and Elbirn can very much so be both scum. If one of you are proven town, sure, I'll be able to look at that differently, but i've been saying this for a while.

But she's responding to Cheetory, who just said that he believes that either one or none of us (Elbirn/Pie) are scum, but not both. She is saying that if he believes that, then there has to be at least 1 scum on my wagon by PoE.

To me, the main thing is Elbirn and pie seem to be playing from a different perspective than the rest of the players. They are going against the group paradigm rather than trying to work with it.

What even does this mean

We should sheep town...And walk into our own graves like town wants. Instead of thinking for ourselves and not dying. I....Huh?

[Elbirn]

Okay, but either I'm missing your point or you're missing mine.

Pie's inquiry into Cheeto's thought process is this.

If HE believes that Pie and I cannot BOTH be scum together, than he must believe that at least one scum is on the Elbirn wagon. Therefore, of Eektor, Monkey, and Boonskiies,

at least one of them is scum

. If he's starting to lean town on you, which I'm starting to feel he is, and he doesn't think the scumteam is Elbirn/Pie, then he *must* believe that the scumteam is some combination of Eektor/Monkey/Elbirn/Pie, minus the possiblity of Elbirn/Pie.

It's not exactly a great observation. More I think about it, it's kinda like saying the sky is blue. What even was the point of this discussion? Oh, right, your 1597. Cuz you missed the part where it wasn't about you, it was for Cheeto.

So 1600, how come Monkey's name is green? Is Monkey conftown to you?

[Elbirn]

If by "everyone else" you mean your scumbuddy Booniikinz, then yes

I'm here.

I have nothing more to say besides lynch elbirn.

As expected, but I want to know, when I flip town, who are you voting tomorrow?

[Elbirn]

Yeah, I'd like to have time to make a decent post in the morning (or afternoonish really, I'm a lazy shit who sleeps in), but yeah if you're actually going to appease these blithering idiots than town has lost.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: MonkeyMan576

For posterity. Boon's just an idiot. Monkey a scumshit. lynch Monkey tomorrow, then Eektor.

[Elbirn]

Actually, no, you know what, just hammer me. If I wake up tomorrow and I'm not dead I'll be disappointed in you. This game is a wash, I'm done here.

Cheeto, Pie, you two are the only people in this game who have brains in their head, and I believe you're both town. For fucks sake, work together here. Lynch Monkey tomorrow. Meta Boon, read his other games and really read into what he's done here and why. The more I think about it the more I feel like Monkey and Eektor are the real team, and all me and Boon have done is fuck ourselves and the game over pointless nonsense. And I know that's a hard thing to get you two to agree on because Pie doesn't think Monkey is scum for god knows what reason, and you, cheeto, kinda townread Eektor at least a teeny bit. But yeah. Sort Boon out. If you can figure Boon out, and if your conclusion is he's town, then PoE says it's Monkey and Eektor. Bringing Boon into the fold = 3 votes in your power. And yeah at this point I almost think Boon is a more reasonable person than Monkey/Eektor.

Oh and Pie if you're scum I will never trust you ever again. Kbaigaiz.

[Elbirn]

I was vanilla town you bunch a smacked asses. see ya post game. Monkey is scum, eektor or boon is the partner.

Just saying.

[Elbirn]

No, you know what, fuck it all.

VOTE: Elbirn

Because if cheeto flakes I'm just going to be under wifomy suspicion bullshit tomorrow and I'll be the mislynch that loses the game.

[Elbirn]

I always admit when I'm hammered scum. I am Vanilla Town.

[Elbirn]

If it makes you feel any better cheeto, if you're town you're definitely tonight's night kill. I'll see you in hell newfriend.

[Elbirn]

End game thoughts wheeeeeeeeee


@Cheeto: You played a way better game than this town deserved, all of your moves were right (well except declaring intent to hammer me cuz I was town but yeah), and you've got a brain in your head which made you enjoyable to play with. Candidate for Town MVP = you

@Acryon: Your Vig uses = on point, I know you'll never read this but you done gewd. Other candiate for Town MVP here.

@Pie

Oh and Pie if you're scum I will never trust you ever again. Kbaigaiz.

:/

Dat admission of guilt. ;_;

Seriously I wanted to say exactly that before I died. And I had some paranoia about you scumbuddying me, based on the same thing happening in my first game (Damn you, lady-scums). But I felt like I'd be muddying the waters too much, throwing shit at the only non-conftown person I was townreading. Also @your apologies in mafia thread and in here after the game, you did what you had to. You were scummy mcscumscum ;_; No hard feelings. At any rate, I still feel like anyone who put any thought into this game would have thought you were obv town, and damn if that doesn't make scumpie scary to play with. Nicely done.

@Victor: I really can't apologize to you enough for being stupid and lynching you D1, because I really, really didn't think you were scummy at all and I don't know how anyone did. And yet I voted you. Again, sorry. And if it's any consolation, I've played with you twice now and both times you've been a good character, and I would happily play with you a third.

@Everyone Else: A lot of you either died early or I just didn't wind up having an opinion on you. I'm not trying to snub you by not including you in my after game thoughts, I just don't know what to say other than you're all good peeps and I hope to see you around ^_^

@Myself: 1629 thru 1632. And so I left the game by killing myself, hedging on my opinion on the only correct-read I've ever had in the history of this site (Boonscum), and let scumbuddy me to victory. After lynching my only D1 townread because a VI told me to, and lynching town the next day.

Why am I not regarded as the VI who lost this game for town again? For srs I want noob advice pls help me not suck.

My sanity will be protected via blacklist.

So like I don't want to be mean, I mean I have the least right of anyone to call someone's play bad. But is there actually a blacklist, because I might want to utilize it...

[Elbirn]

Oh, one other thing.

K, Eektor claimed which was smart. But they're not putting two and two together and realizing that, if they believe him, they NEED to no lynch today for a near guaranteed win. Gah I wish I wasn't dead. I want to scream it at these people.

actually just realized that even if they do figure out the solution to the gamestate, we still have a nonzero chance to win since MM will just go and loltunnel Cheetory in 5p and we can quickhammer him

(for the record, the solution is to NL and have eektor bodyguard Cheetory, who would then gunsmith one of the remaining players and literally POE the scum team if he gets another clear. DO NOT BRING THIS UP IN THREAD FOR OBVIOUS FUCKING REASONS)

Pie it's like you're me

Srsly though Guys, this was the play. This. Was. The. Play. If I weren't dead I would have jumped through all of your computer monitors and screamed it at you. I really thought one of you would have realized.

[Elbirn]

Oh yeah, that. I mean I thought the Toonlynch was a good lynch, I really thought he was scum, but RC's hammer solely for him claiming =
And I was especially frustrated with it because I wanted to hint at being a PR before days end and get myself NK'd instead of mislynched, and RC's hammer meant I didn't really get to talk in twilight because I was at work. But that ended up being a moot point since Scum wasted their NK that night on FF, who roleblocked *me* instead of an actual role, so I guess that went as well as it could have?

Oh, I realized I snubbed Eektor and Boon, who I did in fact have opinions on!

@Eektor I think I still don't know how to read you, because for a lot of early game I thought you were coasting scum. Really didn't get the impression you were a PR laying low, but that might just be my inexperience and not your fault. I wanted to meta you based on our last game where you were scum, but you had a whole 10 posts in that game so I didn't really have any basis for it >.< At any rate you're a good character to play with.

@Boon, it's like I want to hate you but I can't. You're clearly not actually dumb, because whether I agree with it or not, your dumbness has reasoning behind it. Which actually makes you smart. But I'm particularly happy with you flipping scum, because Me V. You was really melting my brain, and it makes perfect sense for you to be a trolling scum in that situation, but if you were town I would have been disappointed. I'd happily play with you again, but the VI schtick is still gonna tempt me into policy lynching you early

[Elbirn]

Lynch All Liars is a

longstanding mantra in the mafiascum.net community

. Quite simply,

most Townies have no reason to lie

about their actions, motivations, or roles. Many newish Townies will attempt to lie in attempts to gambit, and fail miserably by hurting the Town in the process.

The problem here is ignoring the basis for Lynch All Liars.

In many cases if someone is lying, one of two things are happening

1. Someone is lying for a reason that can't be discerned as town motivated, i.e. they are scum.
2. Some newbie is lying as part of a gambit when they didn't really know what they were doing, and because of it town was hurt by the play.

In the first case, lynching the player makes sense as they are likely scum. In the latter case, the player is either lying scum or a newbie town who needs to be lynched for the sake of town, and as a sort of punishment for doing dumb things so they don't do it in the future.

This scenario does not fit into this mantra. Cheeto was damn near confirmed town, and bluffed ever so slightly about his actual role so that he could avoid a nightkill. This is literally the exact opposite of the two above points. His lying is for a town motivated reason, and he is not a newbie and he does know what he is doing, and town was AIDED by the play. He got a confirmed town instead of possibly dying.

I don't want to beat a dead horse or anything, and I'm not going to harangue you over your play. Just in the future, consider that town players can lie for good reasons, and policy lynches aren't exactly an ideal that you need to strive for.

Any way, I feel like the atmosphere in this thread is getting a bit....bleh. Can we give constructive criticisms instead of just insulting people? I'm not happy with the way things turned out either but being a dick to each other isn't going to help anyone's games in the future, nor is it going to exactly endear us to each other

[Elbirn]

I guess and I agree.

The D2 Toon lynch just completely sapped my focus on this game because that was literally the last lynch I wanted that day.

This really isn't the way I usually play, and I'm not happy with this game at all.

I still really don't get that hammer. If you didn't want a Toon lynch, why did you hammer? You explained it as not wanting anyone else to claim; was that really justification enough? I don't feel like hammering someone you believe is town to be a good play. Anyone wanna talk theory on that?

[Elbirn]

Oh right, I had meant to post this when the game ended and forgot.

>Boon's face when scum win