Mini 1749: Classic Rock Mafia: Game Over!

[MattP]

VOTE: aeronaut

[MattP]

wagon on aero.

VOTE: aero.

VOTE: Aero

Why?

[MattP]

mattp has a slight scummy response going to serious vote him.

What was that?

[MattP]

mattp has a slight scummy response going to serious vote him.

What was that?

The fact he asked why over something rvs that didn't need much explaining. I don't know how to put this into words but was there any reason to ask why for something rvs like. Just seems a bit you know.

It's pretty innocuous to try to move RVS along by prodding RVS votes?

[MattP]

Like, the worst-case scenario is that it doesn't get an appreciable rise out of the person you ask the question to and RVS continues

Or this happens (':

[MattP]

What's the point of it when it's obviously a rvs. It like saying I like red that's why i will vote this person who likes gold then someone ask why would you do that.
What response were you expecting from the rvs?

Also why trying to push that it isn't bad to do instead of it isn't scummy that's a strange angle to come from?

I don't think it's common sense that it's RVS for a player to quote a player's rxn to a vote and then wagon that player? People rationalize things as small as an emoticon reaction for a vote. Even if it's a low-stakes beginning-of-day-1 vote with weak reasoning people still justify reads with weak reasoning early on to move RVS along and it's not foul play to engage that sort of vote to continue a dialogue

[MattP]

It's pretty innocuous to try to move RVS along by prodding RVS votes?

isn't it?

This is what you have to add to the conversation?

[MattP]

Also why trying to push that it isn't bad to do instead of it isn't scummy that's a strange angle to come from?

Uh what? Because if there's an inherent worth to an action that you are calling pointless then I'm refuting the point you're making, and considering you feeling it's pointless is the crux of your reasoning for why it's scummy then why wouldn't I argue from that angle anyway?

[MattP]

Lel

[MattP]

Like what did Gramr even snipe you with?

[MattP]

Well it's first page, I said lets wagon him and there was no case on aero thus it's obvious to see it's a rvs wagon. Also I think Dwlee would of said something if his vote was serious. It's more the fact you were trying to push yourself as harmless instead of trying to dismiss my position as weak.

I think your push is town-oriented even if I disagree with it, which affects my tone in how I talk to you.

I think if I were questioning someone for the analogy you used about red/gold then it would be a clearly pointless push. However, there's merit on page 1 of a game to question a vote with possible reasoning

I'm not pushing my point as being harmless, I meant helpful. "Innocuous" was not the correct word.

[MattP]

Forgive me, I'm on ambien that I swallowed a few minutes before this wagon started

[MattP]

Who know this would have started at that ripe moment

[MattP]

I'll respond tomorrow afternoon when the ambien is over.

Otherwise, I am engaging garmr and I've said how I feel about the logic behind my wagon.

[MattP]

Forgive me, I'm on ambien that I swallowed a few minutes before this wagon started

I don't know how I should feel about this, considering that he has mentioned his usage of Ambien in previous games and it probably affects his judgement and behavior. It may not necessarily account for what he has posted here, though. I would definitely like to retain the pressure on his wagon and hear more from MattP once he becomes unaffected by his medication.

It may be because of his medication he didn't think it through and responded what was on top of is mind. I am starting to think he could show his scum game more when his drugged up.

Garmr, I've responded to a lot of your issues you've listed and you've not responded.

[MattP]

Also, I've brought up my state of mind in many games in the past.

[MattP]

I'm unsure how you want me to respond beyond what I already have - The essence of your push on me is that you think I had no reason to question what you believe was an RVS vote that I've explained I thought was grey area in RVS-ness. You have issue with me using the word "innocuous" and I've explained I meant, "could be helpful" instead of "innocuous". What else is there to the vote. I am having difficulty finding anything else to engage you in.

The majority of the other votes were reasonless, which I don't particularly care about so early in the game moving out of RVS. But I'm not getting much else to actually respond to.

[MattP]

Why in 11 did you ask Dwlee about his vote and not Garmr?

Because Garmr's vote was clearly RVS whereas Dwiee's possibly was not, in my opinion.

[MattP]

VOTE: iraonvp

[MattP]

You changed your avatar.

whats scummy about it ?

I am fairly sure that Dwlee99's comment about Garmr's avatar was not implying that it was indicative of a scum-aligned player, it was an RVS vote no different from several others.

And really, what answers would you honestly expect from this question? An avatar is very clearly not indicative of alignment.

I think this is just weird.

Also why trying to push that it isn't bad to do instead of it isn't scummy that's a strange angle to come from?

Very much this. It's as if MattP feels like he is playing his scum-aligned role adequately, yet is attacked on an inadequate basis.

I don't understand the logic behind this. If I thought I was playing my scum-aligned role adequately, how does that explain why I would say my play isn't "bad" vs. isn't "scummy"?

[MattP]

VOTE: iraonvp

"why?"

I don't get the sassiness in this game. >.>

[MattP]

What is weird about 32?

It's very tryhard to overexplain to someone why an avatar change isn't inherently scummy

If you don't think it's weird in essence I don't really know what more there is to it.

[MattP]

You changed your avatar.

whats scummy about it ?

I am fairly sure that Dwlee99's comment about Garmr's avatar was not implying that it was indicative of a scum-aligned player, it was an RVS vote no different from several others.

And really, what answers would you honestly expect from this question? An avatar is very clearly not indicative of alignment.

Like if we're talking about taking RVS nonsense seriously being scummy, it's weird that ira took Angel's post so seriously.

[MattP]

Yes, I would say that my comment was weird! It was not clear to me that it was a joke, since I did not know that Frozen Angel had changed avatars. But I don't see how that could be indicative of my alignment.

The way you're engaging the game over very nitpicky things (like explaining the theory behind an avatar change not being alignment indicative and parsing between bad vs scummy after garmr already commented to legitimize your popular vote) rather than generating new content bothers me. Similarly to everyone giving an opinion on my altered consciousness with the ambien and then you weighing in to say "maybe the ambien explains his posting but maybe not, let's wait and see" in a wordy post doesn't demonstrate any sort of complex thought beyond prolonging your vote on me.

I think that your outrage at being voted for what you consider play that benefits town shows that you know you aren't town-aligned, since you defend yourself on the basis of it being good play, rather than looking "scummy" because you know that you are scum-aligned and may inadvertently let this slip. It makes more sense in my head, but I have trouble putting it into words! Again, I don't see how me being hypothetically wrong here could be indicative of my alignment.

How? You're saying you have issue with me making a value judgment over the apparent utility of my posting when the foundation of the push garmr has on me is that there was clearly no utility to my post so why would I make it? Why wouldn't my response be to then explain why I made the initial post called into question so he could understand my reasoning for making it. An extension of me having a reason to post something is that I think there's some utility to it. Me disagreeing with your reasoning isn't why I think you're scummy anyway - I also disagree with Garmr. I just think you're riding an easy push and the scumhunting you've done is nitpicky and lacks any real depth.

bringing a claimed miller in lylo is extremely dangerous but we can just ignore it till that point

Miller is overrated. It's only "investigation-immune", the majority of player slots will never be investigated anyway so the cost-benefit of fakeclaiming isn't so clear in comparison to the added attention you get from the claim. More often a miller claim is truthful with current site culture anyway.

Forgive me, I'm on ambien that I swallowed a few minutes before this wagon started

I don't know how I should feel about this, considering that he has mentioned his usage of Ambien in previous games and it probably affects his judgement and behavior. It may not necessarily account for what he has posted here, though. I would definitely like to retain the pressure on his wagon and hear more from MattP once he becomes unaffected by his medication.

It may be because of his medication he didn't think it through and responded what was on top of is mind. I am starting to think he could show his scum game more when his drugged up.

Yeah, looking back this is just silly. You haven't even responded in large to most of what I've said back to you after I started feeling the ambien iirc, I don't get what was "on top of my mind" while I was on ambien that reads as free-thought-scumminess to you since you've failed to directly engage me since the initial back-and-forth.

[MattP]

I don't get the aero townreads considering the slot has done barely anything as of yet.

[MattP]

I've already said that my word choice with "innocuous" was poorly chosen and told you what my intended wording was. I mean, to be completely unabashed, I just like using the word innocuous.

[MattP]

My point was, "prodding votes in RVS can have some utility, and at worse it does nothing. But in this situation it started a wagon on me which moves us out of RVS as well so whatever"

[MattP]

How could it be helpful what did you expect as a answer?

It still doesn't change the fact your pushing that the question to harmless. Your just doing it in a different way. Post 136 indicates that. It wasn't your question that took us out of rvs btw it was me who did it. Who decided to push you for it. So doing that to try and justify the logic is extremely bad especially because your plan was obviously not "make myself look bad to move out of rvs".

You're not even directly responding to what I'm saying. I never said I brought us out of RVS, I said that asking someone a question about a possible non-RVS

could

bring the game out of RVS. I've brought games out of RVS, by engaging people, it's not earth-shattering logic.

His vote could have been based on him not liking Aero's reaction, and there could have been shitty or reasonable logic behind it, or it could have been a meaningless entirely RVS vote. I was simple asking to engage a player and gauge a response/reaction from that player. My point was that there could be utility to that - at worse it could do nothing. The point was, "what's the harm to engaging people in RVS?" not "look how harmless I'm being!"

I don't care if you brought us out of RVS, congratulations. I'm not at all concerned

[MattP]

And for the record, yeah, it did nothing. His response of "why not" made it clear it was a random vote and I didn't continue the conversation. If he said, "because he responded in an awkward way" or something to that effect then I would have continued that discussion.

[MattP]

And if you think people don't over-rationalize votes like that in early-game, or try to rationalize votes like that in early-game, you're wrong, it happens all the time.

[MattP]

Especially newbs. If someone like Reckoner or kanye made that vote I wouldn't have asked why. The player that made the vote joined the forum in 2015, my threshold for assuming the worst of newbs in lower than that for experienced players.

pedit: if you're on firefox, that's what's wrong. Idk why.

[MattP]

How about now?

[MattP]

I can see your avatar now, where before I could not.

That must be why people were scumreading me, everyone knows avatar are clearly indicative of alignment.

[MattP]

Well you can trust me, I'm a doctor

[MattP]

lmao

[MattP]

My vote is not RVS, actually.

Oh great, since you're all caught up on the thread and you're sitting on the largest wagon yet haven't provided any content why don't you go on about that instead of choosing the two easiest people to call town (Frozen, Garmr) and nothing else.

[MattP]

To clarify, I am not unvoting you because you changed my mind regarding the "bad vs. scummy" thing.

Why are you unvoting me then?

[MattP]

Ok cool I feel good about you now too, even if I don't agree with the utility of a lot of the stuff you've posted I think the way you approached this conversation was productive and townie and I believe your change of mind

unvote

[MattP]

VOTE: Radja

[MattP]

No use for a guy who is not going to engage in the game and does not answer questions.

That's an easy vote.

Why did you vote me?

[MattP]

No use for a guy who is not going to engage in the game and does not answer questions.

That's an easy vote.

Why did you vote me?

And for what reason did you still have me as a scumread after your catchup?

[MattP]

I already explained why I voted you.

You wanted to act town on page 1, which bothers me a lot. Your followup has not improved my read on you, so I saw no reason to unvote.
You are trying to play the game however, which makes Albert a better vote for now.

No you didn't

And what a damn throwaway

[MattP]

I've posted a shitton of material and "my followup has not improved your read on me"

Like my post on pg1 where I said "Why?" and the post following that I've explained are what made you think I "wanted to act town on page 1" and the remainder of my content so far this game has had no following effect on your read.

It's hard to believe your reads are developing at all

[MattP]

Radja your vote is absolute garbage. It's absolute hypocrisy.

How is it absolute hypocrisy? Radja is posting

[MattP]

I think it's the wrong word. But ABR is voting mathilda for not contributing anything so radja votes abr for not contributing anything over mathilda. Idk if that made sense.

Radja has already explained the discrepancy. Mathilda hasn't posted at all. ABR has posted to say he won't be posting. Radja doesn't like that ABR is active lurking whereas Mathilda is simply lurking.

[MattP]

Phone posting; I saw that whole thing as sarcasm, ABR doing ABR things. I doesn't really matter if he's saying that's what he's doing, it more matters whether he actually just doesn't do anything.

tbh I'd rather tongue-in-cheek ABR than Fakeclaim-Three-Different-Roles-As-Town ABR, as hilarious as that was

I'm not concerned with ABR, I'm concerned that Dwlee is just jumping onto the Radja-smear-campaign by throwing out a big word like "hypocrisy" when he has no reason to justify saying that.

At this point I don't like Dwlee or Dierface (the two D's)

[MattP]

Of the top of my head I didn't care for him until recently and now I marginally like him with his recent posting

But I'll double check

[MattP]

I'm pretty confidant about AI being town after a reread.

[MattP]

I need to go read the last few pages more thoroughly, but having skimmed I didn't really care for a lot of his posting

I didn't like his posting while it was happening early on, but in iso I think it's pretty clear he's genuinely trying to solve aspects of the game. He doesn't seem even remotely manipulative either in any of his positions in the game (miller response, even if other people had problems with it I don't, and the Radja unvote) or how he responded to the Lowell vote on him.

[MattP]

VOTE: Dierfire

[MattP]

VOTE: Dierfire

I'm surprised to see a naked vote on page 9 when the thread has clearly progressed from RVS.

I guess you've never played mafia

Cool first contribution to the thread btw

[MattP]

Wait, what is this vote for? Specifically why now - when Dier hasn't responded to the current votes - and not before?

Why wouldn't I add pressure to a wagon prior to diers response?

[MattP]

Well you can trust me, I'm a doctor

OK you have to know that everyone's going to notice this comment. It's too obvious for a soft claim or bread crumb and if you're townie then why would you say such a thing? Especially if you were a doctor. This is suspicious.

My title is "Dr. Feelgood" and my avatar is a doctor. If you're setting up a bullshit vote on me spare me with the weird justifications

[MattP]

Well you can trust me, I'm a doctor

OK you have to know that everyone's going to notice this comment. It's too obvious for a soft claim or bread crumb and if you're townie then why would you say such a thing? Especially if you were a doctor. This is suspicious.

My title is "Dr. Feelgood" and my avatar is a doctor. If you're setting up a bullshit vote on me spare me with the weird justifications

Also if you really thought this why would you even bring attention to it? You just brought attention to what you believed was a soft claim

[MattP]

I am liking Aero and Dier for town atm. Taly is leaning town, too.

Personally I don't like that matt p dropped a soft claim to doctor earlier considering there probably isn't a doctor in this game.

Wasn't he referring to his avatar?

It felt like he was laying down a fake claim for latter.

I officially think you're bad at mafia

Congrats!

[MattP]

Continue with your tunnelvisiony rolefishing and setup spec, it's so fascinating

And for the record, I wasn't crumbing anything.

[MattP]

Your opinion of me is so stale - I've explained my rationale to you. You've ignored my explanations until I forced you to engage me (why is it so difficult to get you to engage me? Shouldn't you want to engage me? Don't you want me dead?) and then I provided further explanations that clearly explain the things you have reservations with (I'm not an idiot, I can see clearly that my explanations make sense, other people are fine with my explanations and have unvoted me). You're forcing puzzle pieces to fit into your story line of why I'm scummy to you (seriously, you think I'm "crumbing" and that "doc doesn't fit into the setup"?)

You're either tunnel-visioning or you're forcing the read, I'm the only person you've called out all game (other than to say, "Radja is scummy but mattp is scummier so I feel uncomfortable moving" with no explanation for why Radja is scummy)

[MattP]

Just look at matt p change of personality after the pressures off if that doesn't ring mafia then I don't know what does.

lmao

[MattP]

By downplayed you mean, "responding fairly to people pressuring me" and by "confidence" you mean being done with your lazily and incompetent push then yes, you have your finger on the pulse of the situation

[MattP]

How could it be helpful what did you expect as a answer?

It still doesn't change the fact your pushing that the question to harmless. Your just doing it in a different way. Post 136 indicates that. It wasn't your question that took us out of rvs btw it was me who did it. Who decided to push you for it. So doing that to try and justify the logic is extremely bad especially because your plan was obviously not "make myself look bad to move out of rvs".

You're not even directly responding to what I'm saying. I never said I brought us out of RVS, I said that asking someone a question about a possible non-RVS

could

bring the game out of RVS. I've brought games out of RVS, by engaging people, it's not earth-shattering logic.

His vote could have been based on him not liking Aero's reaction, and there could have been shitty or reasonable logic behind it, or it could have been a meaningless entirely RVS vote. I was simple asking to engage a player and gauge a response/reaction from that player. My point was that there could be utility to that - at worse it could do nothing. The point was, "what's the harm to engaging people in RVS?" not "look how harmless I'm being!"

I don't care if you brought us out of RVS, congratulations. I'm not at all concerned

And for the record, yeah, it did nothing. His response of "why not" made it clear it was a random vote and I didn't continue the conversation. If he said, "because he responded in an awkward way" or something to that effect then I would have continued that discussion.

And if you think people don't over-rationalize votes like that in early-game, or try to rationalize votes like that in early-game, you're wrong, it happens all the time.

Especially newbs. If someone like Reckoner or kanye made that vote I wouldn't have asked why. The player that made the vote joined the forum in 2015, my threshold for assuming the worst of newbs in lower than that for experienced players.

pedit: if you're on firefox, that's what's wrong. Idk why.

Garmr, this didn't deserve a response?

[MattP]

No

Ok

[MattP]

Well you can trust me, I'm a doctor

OK you have to know that everyone's going to notice this comment. It's too obvious for a soft claim or bread crumb and if you're townie then why would you say such a thing? Especially if you were a doctor. This is suspicious.

My title is "Dr. Feelgood" and my avatar is a doctor. If you're setting up a bullshit vote on me spare me with the weird justifications

Also if you really thought this why would you even bring attention to it? You just brought attention to what you believed was a soft claim

I said:

"It's too obvious for a soft claim or bread crumb and if you're townie then why would you say such a thing? Especially if you were a doctor. This is suspicious."

It's too obvious for a bread crumb but it's not too obvious for something of scum intent? Explain the distinction

[MattP]

359- Outrage at fake mod flip [-, shows Frozen Angel is overly concerned that RadiantCowbells revealed her real role]

Some of the logic this game is so incredibly ridiculous regarding outguessing people's mindsets. This sort of scumhunting is unreliable.

[MattP]

340- AlwaysInnocent makes colored reads, but he calls himself "just town" [+, disagree, but sensible]

Like similarly this

You'll find scum because their scumhunting won't make sense. Everything else is WIFOM. I used to do this same outguessing stuff when I was a newer player, it doesn't work.

[MattP]

Unless someone like blatantly fucks up or is cornered through setup spec / vca

[MattP]

Apologies for being MIA, I'll be back today

[MattP]

I'm claiming vig early because I'm having trouble connecting with vocal people this game and I'm not having fun with this game (I'm not saying to complain, I'm saying purely to explain my motivation here) and this is an easy way to put the resistance to me today to rest, I believe the miller claim so there's likely a cop and therefore scum won't waste their roleblock on me should they have one, me claiming incentivizes scum NKing me which works perfectly considering people are scumreading me, and vig is a common role so town will know I'm not fakeclaiming since it runs too high a risk of being counterclaimed

[MattP]

pedit :Wow, is vig claim normal in normal games?

Are you serious right now? It's a normal role. It's one of the roles approved for normal setups.

You're scum.

[MattP]

Fine, whatever, lack of experience is a valid excuse. That was just like a really weird thing to be skeptical about

[MattP]

I think I read somewhere SK's best claim is vig.... I can't remember where and having SK is normal in normal games sooo, I don't know how should I exactly react to a vig claim ...

>.>

SK is a normal role, it's pretty uncommon in small games due to swinginess of having two antitown in such a small setup. It's possible. Purely trying to be unbiased I wouldn't worry about that until later in the game.

I don't get why you would know that SKs are normal but you wouldn't know that vigs are. This is such a scummy reaction to a claim.

[MattP]

WHEN I SAID VIG IS NOT NORMAL. I ASKED WHATS THE OPTIMAL PLAY WHEN SOMEBODY CLAIMS THAT.

why you misrep me?!

You didn't say "What's the optimal play when someone claims vig"

You said "Is vig claim normal in normal games"

You're changing the meaning. Even if I misinterpreted it, taking it for face value you're asking the playerlist if it's normal for a vig to claim in a normal game, which is also a bizarre question anyway. You didn't ask the question in the way you're now saying you intended it, you never talked about "optimal play"

[MattP]

Maybe you meant the question to mean something different that you initially phrased it but saying I "misrepped" you when you're now completely changing what you first said is zany

[MattP]

You seriously are asking people if it's normal for a vig to claim?

That's such a ridiculous thing to "ask the viewership"

Why do you need people's opinions on that? All different types of roles claim all the time in game. I clearly outlined my reasoning for claiming. Claiming roles isn't some sort of mechanic, people claim when they want to claim - why do you need to ask people about it?

[MattP]

Why wouldn't you just read my reasoning and use that to rationalize whether or not you think the claim is believable? Why do you need other people to explain it to you?

[MattP]

pedit : I have no idea why should a PR claim in day 1 like that. because vig is too easy to follow? why shouldn't mafia kill you tonight? why is that a good thing to claim ?

pedit again : you said because its easily followable. I don't find a reason why shouldn't you be an SK how tried to claim vig. I know I'm bad at setup speculation thing because I'm not that experienced. but I have concerns!

why shouldn't mafia kill you tonight if your a real vig ?

Mafia can kill me tonight, that's my point. I don't hold myself in such high esteem that I think I'll definitely be hitting scum on night, there's plenty of theory discussion done about why vigs are negative utility roles for town anyway (I can link this to you). It's not a big deal if I'm NKd. If I was a cop or doc I would not have claimed this early.

If I was a SK I wouldn't have claimed vig until I was L-1 because I wouldn't want scum knowing I was the killing role unless it was absolutely necessary - why would I want that extra target on my back as an SK when I would need to survive to endgame? As vig I don't need to.

[MattP]

As vig I don't need to.

This is to say, as vig I don't need to worry about being NK'd because I just need town to win.

And I already explained the benefits - I think there is a cop in the game due to there being a miller. Scum can roleblock me if they want rather than kill me (supposing they have a roleblocker) but then the cop will not be roleblocked and their investigation will go through.

If scum want to save their roleblock they need to NK me, which is fine because I'll still get my N1 kill in and I was being scumread anyway by the majority of the players in the game so it wasn't a big deal if I took that bullet.

[MattP]

It's not a big deal if I'm NKd.

ha?

vig is not a town PR? it doubles town power to kill ... why your death is not a big deal?

Great, and here is where you don't know about vig theory. I'll link you to the thread, like I just clearly said I would if you didn't understand.

[MattP]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=58894

[MattP]

Vigs more often than not shoot town because people, when left to their own devices, are surprisingly usually not that great at catching mafia.

Anyone who thinks they're valuable as a vig either doesn't know vigs are anti-town or are completely full of themselves.

[MattP]

Anyway here is who I want lynched VOTE: Mathilda

[MattP]

Taly over-explains things ad nauseam

[MattP]

matt p shows survivorlistic traits I think his probably the sk with that claim don't care through mafia should deal with him. I refuse to accept him as town.

UNVOTE: mattp

It makes me feel so good to know I could vig you

Not that I will

But man it feels so sweet

[MattP]

I actually think that every time I've ever been tunneled like this as town in the last maybe 2 years the person doing it was scum

But outside of your miserable tunnel you seem pretty town

Such a terrible shame

[MattP]

Hey Garmr, mb you should vote someone

[MattP]

I am drunk, whats going on everyone. Who wants to talk right now.

I still haven't caught up with the thread, but I want to try to sort some players out and figure shit out.

Happy drunk day!

[MattP]

Happy drunk day!

MATTP!!!!! WHATS UP!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

I WILL FOLLOW YOU FOR TODAY! Or w/e.

Who is your primary scum read? Town read?

I don't like a few people but I don't want to say because I want to leave scum guessing regarding my vig kill O: but I'm voting Mathilda right now

Despite not seeing eye to eye with frozen angel often I think the slot is high probability town, there's a townread for ya!

[MattP]

Whats your thoughts on Aeronaut?

I think he's fine, why?

[MattP]

Garmr, I would have been willing this whole time to have productive discussion with you. Since you agree I'm not scum, it's logical to look at associatives of how people responded to your push on me

[MattP]

Radja is a waste of time. Vote Mathilda.

VOTE: Mathilda

Why is it a waste of time?

I'm not to sure on taly at the moment. The miller claim is pro town. But something about her makes my stomach churn.

I keep forgetting the slot is a miller whoops. That makes me feel better about the slot at least for today.

[MattP]

Im having trouble creating a cohesive idea of this game bc everyone is being rly skeptical of everyone all the time so it keeps making me doubt my reads and be like "what if I'm wrong and theyre right?"

Frozen, do you have some solid townreads right now?

[MattP]

Why is Lowell so high?

Just curious, are you asking because you are scumhunting frozen or because you care about her opinion?

[MattP]

if I want to put people in order it will be like this :

AI
Garmr
Mattp
Taly

lowell
Aero

ABR
iraon
FB

Dire
Mathilda
Radja

I agree with you on AI and Garmr after a skim of the latter half of AI's iso

I think the development of ira's read on me when I was engaging him was pretty believable scumhunting too

I would say you/ira/AI/garmr are me top 4 townreads atm.

[MattP]

Why is Lowell so high?

Just curious, are you asking because you are scumhunting frozen or because you care about her opinion?

I don't understand the question.

I dont get when people ask people to explain their reads when they dont have the person who provided the reads list as scum. Like, I'm assuming you're townreading FA so why do you need an explanation of a read unless you're asking because you think she's going to enlighten you of something about Lowell's play that might alter your read

But now I understand you're just asking because you're offended she ranked Lowell higher than you

[MattP]

Iraon's treatment of the mattwagon is classic wagon-aversion. Despite being on the matt wagon from the beginning (before it was dangerous), iraon several times subtly tries to derail it ("well, maybe it is the drugs, idk"... "there's 'nuance', *shrugs shoulders*") without unvoting. Then, when (thank heavens!) someone gives him the excuse to jump by accusing him of going for an easy lynch, he jumps (161)! Haha, showed you guys, I didn't settle for an easy lynch-- but OMG you guys don't worry I still think matt may be scum, btw!

This is actually a nice paragraph, I like the thought progression. I didn't read it before because lowell's posts look lengthy and boring #noshame

[MattP]

I think it's fair to assume someone has made judgments about your meta based on a single scumgame, especially if they fooled you in that scumgame

People have been overparanoid of me after single scumgames I've played with them.

Even if you're not doing it I dont agree with you that it's manipulative or out there

[MattP]

Even if you're not doing it I dont agree with you that it's manipulative or out there

This is to mean, "even if you're not [letting that previous game affect your read] I don't agree with you that it's manipulative [of ABR to bring that possibility into question]"

[MattP]

Still content with Mathilda lynch

[MattP]

I'll review him tonight again

[MattP]

Because the slots posts are generally pretty 2 dimensional including their vote justifications

[MattP]

Because the slots posts are generally pretty 2 dimensional including their vote justifications

Hmm, tbh that isn't what I expected you to say. Can you be a bit more concrete?

Again, like I asked ABR, why do you care about my explanation? Do you actually value my reads or are you trying to scumhunt me?

[MattP]

I don't expect anyone to just trust my reads. There's already a wagon on Mathilda, clearly I don't need to convince the town

Your predecessor was on Mathilda, clearly you must know you're town. Your predecessor is the only player in the game you should know at this point is town, maybe you should look at his reasons or take his opinions with some weight

[MattP]

I like that you think FA slipped scum and the only person you're trying to convince is garmr

[MattP]

Prod

[MattP]

I think FA is town

[MattP]

I'll lynch whomever I want tyvm

[MattP]

I meant vig not lynch, woops

[MattP]

I clearly said "I suggest". What's wrong with offering suggestions?

I dont want scum having any idea of where im going with my vig

[MattP]

In

You probably get just one shot. Make sure it counts. Analyze the situation carefully.

Yessir

The flip will help

[MattP]

I knew that's what he was!

[MattP]

Can we just hammer and not wait out this replacement I want to move on with my life

[MattP]

Also your new avatar sucks.

Youre a bully

[MattP]

Cause I don't see why my slot is scum. I have yet to read my slots previous posts though.

This is a weird statement

[MattP]

Like your new avatar weird?

You found Waldo instead of Nemo

Its fantastic

[MattP]

These off topic comments lose you town points.

Ugh

[MattP]

unvote

[MattP]

I think you're town ABR but I hate the majority of everyone elses opinions on Mathilda. Even if I think Mathilda is less than spectacular simply because I think the slot's pushes are weak, the rationalizations for scumreading the slot from other players are atrocious

It feels too easy, I need a second to actually put in effort and read some stuff

[MattP]

I've been quiet because I don't want to start throwing around alternative suggestions for who I dislike only to have Mathilda lynched anyway and then have scum know exactly who I plan to target for the vig

[MattP]

unvote

We have 3 days this isn't the time to be pulling this shit.

This must be a flipping joke. 3 days is ample time to do things. I was literally just in a blitz game where the days only lasted 3 days in TOTAL. Many forums run games with day phases running 3 days. Why are you trying to prevent new discussion?

For the record, I am rereading. I'm not just shitting around.

pedit: I don't want Dier lynched today, I think after reread the slot is likely town.

[MattP]

Aero is a good bet for Town on his wagon. His points on Iraonavp are good

Except I just recaught this on reread

Aero hadn't made any points on ira up to this point in the game? How could his points on ira be good? You just pulled that out of thin air

[MattP]

Everyone is pulling all these ridiculous "slips" out to implicate people (The FA slip, the FB slip) when THIS ^^^ is actually a high probability slip in that it shows a huge inconsistency in believable authentic scumhunting

If you want to talk about slips, that's a slip

I'm going to finish reading that because I recall Dier engaging Aera on that after Aero called him out and then I'll decide how I feel

[MattP]

Newbie 681, my first game here. We were discussing how my VT claim meant that the scum would have less NK targets for PR hunting.

There's a huge flaw in your argument MM... I would only be giving the scum less targets if I wasn't scum in the first place!

And then:

EBWOP: I misworded a bit. What I meant to say was:
I would only be giving the scum less targets if I wasn't a townie.

I'm not scum.

3rd time is the charm:

Oops, misworded again.
I. WOULD. ONLY. BE. GIVING. THE. SCUM. LESS. TARGETS. IF. I. WAS. A. TOWNIE.

OK, I got it.

I actually was a VT in the game, and MM (MiteyMouse) was Mafia.

Just saying, people accidentally use incorrect alignment identifiers and its not a scumslip. I've seen it happen in multiple games and I've never seen the person end up being scumy after that argument was used on them. Not that it can't happen, but it's not damning. People type fast

[MattP]

Remind me after this game to make a post in mafia discussion about all the most common fallacious arguments people make when scumhunting that make me unhappy

Also, I see now the discrepancy with pronoun use and Dier, I'm going to keep reading

Pedit: reaction tests are mean AI

[MattP]

Ftr I think AI and Aero are my strongest townreads

[MattP]

I'm color blind but I just pressed quote to see the colors

No worries.

[MattP]

You're completely ignoring where I said there are literal games running on mafiascum.net with days that run, in total, 3 RL days

[MattP]

I'm putting together a reads list but I'm not going to share it in lieu of the vig kill - just to organize my thoughts

And then whomever I feel most confident about lynching I'll talk about

[MattP]

I'm putting together a reads list but I'm not going to share it in lieu of the vig kill - just to organize my thoughts

And then whomever I feel most confident about lynching I'll talk about

If anyone other than Mathilda or Fire dies today it's going to be suspicious as shit.

Can we just hammer and not wait out this replacement I want to move on with my life

I'm putting together a reads list but I'm not going to share it in lieu of the vig kill - just to organize my thoughts

And then whomever I feel most confident about lynching I'll talk about

34 pages, still on D1, finally closing in on a lynch and all of a sudden Matt has big ideas. Whatever, guy.

#1 my role is confirmable so it doesn't matter what you think. I have you as a likely scumread so I especially don't care about you trying to discredit me

#2 You literally can't discredit me, I've basically confirmed myself as not-scum. Of anyone in the game my reads are the most reliable to other town since they can be pretty confident I'm not scum

[MattP]

And town ALWAYS get cold feet right before deadlines - it's called self doubt. I can't believe I even need to bring that up, you thinking it's scummy to doubt a lynch close to deadline is ridiculous given your join date.

[MattP]

If anyone other than Mathilda or Fire dies today it's going to be suspicious as shit.

Like HA, you basically just told me I need to vote one of two players

That's scummy enough, but it's mindblowing considering I've claimed vig that you would try to dominate my opinion this way when it's pretty high probability that I'm town

[MattP]

And even if you thought I could be an SK, if I was an SK I would obviously scumhunt because I would want you to think I'm vig

[MattP]

I still don't understand why no one wants to vote iraon, but I could live with either of the two leading wagons as well if it came to it.

IIRC multiple times this game you've basically said, "I'll vote any of the wagons". Even as early as post 401

Mattp is still in my scum lean.

Uh you said I was null and then that developed into "TvT with Garmr" and then suddenly a scumlean? How does that discrepancy make sense?

[MattP]

God I just got to this post again

@Mathida

Who is Mafia?

Honestly I don't really know. I'm sort of hanging back and trying to see if anything rings my scumdar but not much is. But I can give you my feels at the present moment.

MattP and Garmr are interesting to me though. I am not familiar with MattP but he seems rather cocky, which can be read as being defensive. Garmr is burrowing into him like an African parasite but is that because Garmr is town and is also suspicious of him or is it because he's a scum buddy distancing himself from MattP? I have played with Garmr before and I don't remember him like this. He was scum in Mini 1741 but the whole game was a mess with one scum outing all his buddies and the game should have been scrapped rather than played out. So it's no wonder that Garmr was less active in that game. Overall though I am getting a town vibe from Garmr.

So the only one I'm happy voting for at the moment is MattP. In fact, I think I'll do that right now.

VOTE: MattP

What a terrible rationalization for voting me, likely the worst all game.

[MattP]

Anyway here is who I want lynched VOTE: Mathilda

Page-19-Matt agrees with Now-Matt

[MattP]

As it stands it looks like you've selected one person that you want rid of for whatever reason and have become

fixated

on achieving that.

Fixated? This was my first vote on you, iirc even my first time stating my scumread on you

[MattP]

Frozen. I havent even read your post yet but cut the attitude every time anyone engages you about your play, it's the least helpful thing ever

[MattP]

Like you've been questioned like 10 times this game and every time you freak out at the person who does it

[MattP]

FA can you explain your continued push on Radja? I'm not seeing scum motivation over there at this point... I'm a little agitated that my claims being treated as if its a future death-sentence rather than based on the principle of it being claimed, but I can understand where it's coming from.... :/ Other than that, and Radja whose consistently posted in a way I originally thought was stiff, Radja is leaning town atm.

I think ABR push is useless atm. since I think people are just making excuses to vote him.

I want to reanalyze Mattp - Garmr posts to see what is both of them view, this might be a TvT after all the new posts of Mattp.

and I can definitely understand a dire push as well.

Radja posts seems definitely content less. I think he is just posting to say" I said what I wanted before! Hell! I don't like to bother myself and play anymore!"

this is town motivated?!!!

Direfire case is not solid , But I might w8 for Albert to answer that.

Mattp is still in my scum lean.

I'm going to ignore Miller claim of Taly as I said before (for now) and I think he is town because I like his posts so far - at least for now.

Gamr is so hard tunneling Mattp atm but thats no alignment indicative - more town sided.

I have no solid reads on Iaron. I guess he is weird in some degree but I cant say if its scummy or not.

about Dweele , yeah I really don't like his posts.

you seems town. I like your posts and your readlist overall.

anyway I'm happy about wagoning Radja.

The bolded two parts are relevant. I hadnt even made any new posts between this read flip

[MattP]

I actually think this is an example of a scummy read jump

But I'd like to see her response

[MattP]

No, Frozens read jump

[MattP]

What do you think of my other reads?

I'm not following Radja townread.Like at all

I'm considering Mattp in null category.

In rest I can't argue.

No, that explanation doesnt hold, just 30 posts earlier she had me as null

Also please dont answer for her let her provide answers

[MattP]

Like you've been questioned like 10 times this game and every time you freak out at the person who does it

Mattp. your free to check my meta. When I get accused , I jusmp out. this is me being me - > completly no alignment indicative

look at this game when I was obv and people couldn't lynch me and the way I jumped on Ari ?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=64429

you can check all of my games in wiki.

plus about your case I said This might be TvT and I'm going to reanalyze your case and I stated that I'm still on my previous read that was scum reading you.

If this is your meta then you should stop doing it because it's counterproductive

Again, your story doesnt hold, you had me as a null read, not a scum read, prior to the TvT comment.

[MattP]

We're playing a game >.> This isnt a court of law. I dont want to be lashed out at for playing a game the way it's intended to be played.

[MattP]

In real life noone gets to snap at you because it's their personality.

[MattP]

Iso me ... I was somehow scumreading you.

Not totally scum but yes I was getting scum vibes from you ...

Then your story has changed. Your explicit wording was:

Null -> maybe TvT -> scum lean

Like it's insane I'm noticing this?

[MattP]

I want to reanalyze Mattp - Garmr posts to see what is both of them view, this might be a TvT after all the new posts of Mattp.

Why did you even consider this originally?

[MattP]

I have yet to meet someone on this forum that I truly dislike personally.

Donald Trump had an account for a lil bit

[MattP]

I know its a pain but Im curious to know what it was that made you think we were TvT in the way we were arguing

[MattP]

I dont see how ira's recent posting is bad at all.

[MattP]

VOTE: Mathilda

I have my vig plans set and I have my reads list concrete. I'm fine with this day ending with a Mathilda lynch.