Mini Normal 1873 (Game Over)
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Lexa Goon
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Lexa
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Lexa Goon
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Will respond to this in full when it becomes appropriate to do soIn post 74, Alisae wrote: Why?-
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Lexa Goon
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Of reasons that will be apparent when it is appropriateIn post 129, Alisae wrote:
And it's not appropriate now because?In post 128, Lexa wrote:
Will respond to this in full when it becomes appropriate to do soIn post 74, Alisae wrote: Why?-
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Lexa Goon
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Blue jays all the way babyIn post 131, Alisae wrote:
Is your favorite team the dodgers? Because you must really like dodging the question,In post 130, Lexa wrote:
Of reasons that will be apparent when it is appropriateIn post 129, Alisae wrote:
And it's not appropriate now because?In post 128, Lexa wrote:
Will respond to this in full when it becomes appropriate to do soIn post 74, Alisae wrote: Why?-
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Lexa Goon
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I see you're taking lessons in the 'annoy people until they give you what they want' school of scumhunting ehIn post 133, Alisae wrote:Yep. Piccolo taught you how to dodge pretty well Gohan.
There's a condition to my responding in full that has yet to be fulfilled that I expect to be soon. Simple as that.-
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Lexa Goon
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Lexa
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Lexa Goon
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The condition for my posting reasoning for my vote on All Alone has now been fulfilled. That condition was All Alone posting so as to see possible reaction / lack thereof in response to my vote.In post 135, Alisae wrote:Fine. I'll be patient and wait look a good child.
Prior to my joining this site and signing up for this game I spent some time reading through a couple of the longer games on this site to get a feel for how the game was approached here (sidenote: super helpful, scumhunting tactics I picked up made me so much better in the game I'm currently in on my main site). One of the games in particular featured both All Alone and Alisae, providing a reference point for meta reads. At the time of my vote, Alisae had several votes on him as a result of his posting style and I decided that adding additional pressure to him was less beneficial than putting pressure on All Alone in an attempt to create reactions to base reads on him from.
Based on that previous game that I had read (which I believe is still ongoing last time I looked ~a week ago), I am reasonably confident that Alisae is town. His actions this game are entirely consistent with his behaviour in the previous game and his scumhunting, while arguable how effectual it is, follow similar patterns. That being said, I'm not willing to consider them a lock town at this point in time as their posting style inherently creates a looooot of noise that can hide more legitimate tells on them.
All Alone having posted is now grounds for me to place a FoS on them. Their previous meta as I interpreted it had them being, while not necessarily a lot more active, considerably more proactive in their scumhunting tactics. Their post 285 shows them unvoting as their only post of content since RVS based on "not wanting their vote anywhere" right now. While I'm willing to give this a pass for players who are more actively using their vote and have shown some kind of previous commitment to reads, his lack of activity on that front means that his unvote here looks considerably more like a scum who doesn't want their vote to be tied to someone they can be held accountable to for their opinions should they unvote and wagon in the future.
Posts from AA/Alisae have been my focus since game start, I'll likely wall post later in the week after I come off low activity and have been able to take some time to reread the thread and consider posts at more than face value.-
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Lexa Goon
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Lexa Goon
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Wall posts can be concise. There's just so much content and I intend to get as clear a picture on things as possible that even concise posts on the game (considering I haven't been actively posting to compensate) will require a considerable amount of writing in all likelihood.In post 339, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:
Noooo.In post 337, Lexa wrote:I'll likely wall post later in the week
Be concise or your points are drowned in your own words-
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Lexa Goon
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My user name here is different from on that site because I don't want common associations between the two which is a roundabout way of saying I'd rather not say.In post 345, LicketyQuickety wrote:
Where do you play?In post 343, Lexa wrote:
Wall posts can be concise. There's just so much content and I intend to get as clear a picture on things as possible that even concise posts on the game (considering I haven't been actively posting to compensate) will require a considerable amount of writing in all likelihood.In post 339, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:
Noooo.In post 337, Lexa wrote:I'll likely wall post later in the week
Be concise or your points are drowned in your own words
I generally agree, though I don't have much time, class in the morning. I've been mostly reading on mobile and looking for All Alone posts so specific players haven't jumped out at me too much yet (hence the majority of my motivation for taking time to read back through the thread).In post 346, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:@Lexa,
I prefer players to do real time interactions over wall catch up posts because real time is a lot harder to fake reads on players. So when you want to talk about something, make an opening statement, let someone talk to you and discuss it; like right now let's do it.
Who in the game is giving you the bad vibes?
Obviously All Alone isn't rubbing me the right way. You are actually giving me odd vibes, on the surface you seem extremely towny but I'm catching hints of asking a lot of questions and pushing activity without especially contributing new information yourself which is an effective strategy where I play.
karnos and jordan are the obvious picks given how they've been argued for but I'm less interested in them right now than I am in going back and looking at the content from the people who started pressuring them-
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Lexa Goon
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Lexa Goon
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I was vla until yesterday and there's 30 pages to go through. Not really my fault of the timing is at L-1.In post 693, LicketyQuickety wrote:I also think at the very least we shouldn't hammer until Lexa makes their catchup post. I don't like the way Lexa comes in at L-1 and says they will make a catch up post in the next day or so. Makes it look like they don't want to contribute much.-
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Lexa Goon
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Lexa Goon
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Sorry folks, got through my full thread analysis but ran out of time to look at the vote count and isos before work. So much for waiting to hammer eh? Assuming the mod locks the thread some time in the next 9 hours (and that I'm alive to d2) I'll have the wall post ready to go for d2 start.
Can provide my reads list based on the thread as a short-term substitute.
So-towny-it-hurts: {shannon, PranaDevil}
Moderate-town-lean: {LQ, jordan}
Null-town: {Garmr, ThinkBig}
Null-scum: {Alisae, Gin, BBT}
Moderate-scum-lead: {All Alone}
Lynch-them-already: {pepchoninga}-
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Lexa Goon
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Ready when I get off work in 4.5hIn post 818, LicketyQuickety wrote:@Lexa, you're up.-
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Lexa Goon
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As promised, game review pre-jordan flip
Posts that I don't reference I either think are irrelevant to the game or full NAI, or I missed it
Spoiler: Game flow comments
Spoiler: ISO comments
Summary:
So-towny-it-hurts: {shannon, PranaDevil}
Moderate-town-lean: {LQ, jordan}
Null-town: {Garmr, ThinkBig}
Null-scum: {Alisae, Gin, BBT}
Moderate-scum-lead: {All Alone}
Lynch-them-already: {pepchoninga}
Alisae+AA possible scum team-
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Lexa
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Lexa
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Lexa Goon
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I posted my post as it was before his flip, when it was almost ready when the day ended. Figured it was more helpful to leave the thought process behind my reads on him than go back and remove themIn post 941, shannon wrote:@Lexa why are you giving Jordan a moderate town read; he flipped town overnight..-
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Lexa Goon
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VOTE: PepchoningaIn post 945, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:So Lexa, don't like walls, they're catch up posts and you just report what happened. What are you pushing for right now?
From my analysis they've been by far the scummiest player and I don't agree with the scum!LQ theories-
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Lexa Goon
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Also I don't care if you don't like walls, it's concisely written so go read it. Especially read the analysis but I guess that's just "reporting what happened" right?In post 945, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:So Lexa, don't like walls, they're catch up posts and you just report what happened. What are you pushing for right now?-
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Lexa Goon
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Lexa Goon
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I got home and literally c/ped my notepad of my post from when it was completed during n2. Or did you miss that?In post 953, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Here's the thing Lexa that I'm starting to pick up on. Scum are not good at, or choose not to participate in heated discussion. When you have to think of things quickly, it gets harder to produce thoughts that push a scum agenda as you can't manipulate the information but are forced to give out what you think. That's the meat and potatoes of a townie. So far with you doing only catch up posts and describing "this post is scummy and this one isn't" leaves you with being able to give scum reads, look like you're contributing but the key here is that you are not pushing shit.
You didn't even have a vote at the end of your analysis.
Oh wait of course you did because you didn't read my post because "omg walls"
At the time I posted there had been four additional pages of content, dropping a vote outright there is irresponsible at best-
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Lexa Goon
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Primary reasoning: I find his arguments heavily cherrypicked ref post: 928
Suggesting that LQ is scum based on karnos trying to link LQ to garmr is weak at the best of times, suggesting that he's linking LQ to garmr to try and hide him is pure speculation, especially given his assertion that karnos is amateur scum where you can just as easily say that karnos is trying to push a scum team. This argument carries zero weight with me
Second response he cherrypicks a post out of a series of bickering posts between LQ and jordan claiming that this somehow represents a false claim. This is complete air.
I find post 183 completely NAI so that's more of a disagreement on what the most means than disagreeing with garmr's argument specifically
Ironically garmr does the same thing you accuse me of in 692, just saying something is bad without saying why-
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Lexa Goon
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I was getting there sheeshIn post 958, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:
Just because i hate it doesn't mean I don't read it so fuck off and give actual reasons why you don't think Garmr is right.In post 957, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Lexa you made that during N1?-
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Lexa Goon
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Per my review I've found the vast majority of alignment indicative things LQ has done to be towny or town-oriented. I cannot support a lynch on him especially when his wagon is composed of mostly scum and null reads, especially when I have much stronger scum reads available to be lynched like pep who somehow has still avoided any and all scrutiny.In post 955, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:If LQ is your fucking town read you'd best be defending him hard at L-1-
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Lexa Goon
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The argument you base your stance on him here isIn post 940, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:I now find that there is a large contradiction in LQ's play. (Thanks Gramr, I think I was buddied because I love theory talk )
Well in the theory talk that LQ was explaining to me, he found it very AI the way people posted and that's how he got a read on him. This game he linked was a town game of Karnos. If what LQ says is what he believes, that means he would think Karnos is in fact town but he sat at null. I don't think it was really that hard to understand you either voted for Karnos cuz he was scummy to you or he was town. I find it odd that he remained null for the longest of times...
Oh, and trying to derail a wagon on a person he didn't think was town :p I'll derail any town wagon I see, even at one vote (as I did with ThinkBig), but I actually sometimes vote my null reads (ask Alisae lmfao) because it helps me discover more about their alignment and how they handle the wagon.
P-Edit: Mastina notice meIn post 357, LicketyQuickety wrote:Those voting Karnos, I want you to look at this game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=66922
<<< You're my favorite student.
...no, it doesn't matter that you're my ONLY student, my statement still stands as accurate anyway! >>>heavilycontingent in LQ believing karnos is town based on him having a previous town game and assuming he would have the same meta. Without speaking for LQ if I'm reading someone I'm not using meta solely to determine their alignment, I'm accounting for it but I'm not claiming them as town or scum solely based on how their meta tone matches up to previous games, especially not earlier in a day before they've made any claims or statements or actions to compare their meta to.
Wagon derailment is a reasonable argument-
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Lexa Goon
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I referenced several towny posts in my catchup post, the towniest post to me was 600 in defense of ThinkBig. I found his reasoning solid and town motivated, it was a risky defense for scum~LQ to make at the time given the momentum gaining towards him and the only scum motivation I could see would be scum buddies - something risky in and of itself given the clear linkages it establishes between the two.In post 964, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:What post (hyperbole warning) screamed town to you? You like to reference posts to explain your reads so I don't doubt you can do me this courtesy to build a town case on LQ.-
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Lexa Goon
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Compelling argument. I don't necessarily agree that he would be town-reading karnos but I can entertain the possibility.In post 968, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:The basis in why I say that is because later on he actually says he will go out of his way to prove that the post formatting is town!Karnos in Evidence A.
Evidence B is 3 quotes showing that he HEAVILY relies on using that as part of his reads as that is apparently what he is really good at, what he uses to form opinions.
So yes, I fully believe that given "LQ's special type of meta" and how he portrayed it, that he would town reading Karnos pretty hard but he didn't. He was at a null.
Spoiler: Evidence A
Spoiler: Evidence B
Why do you think that him not town-reading karnos when you think he should be is scum-indicative? Why does that outweigh his other contributions that (imo) are considerably town-oriented?-
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Lexa Goon
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I'm not exactly surprised that my reads differ from someone whom I've marked for close attentionIn post 967, Garmr wrote:
Honestly I think your scum reads are pretty shit well the ones on the LQ wagon at least. As alisae,All alone and gin are town reads of mine.In post 952, Lexa wrote:I town read LQ, I don't find Garmr's arguments compelling, I find his quotes heavily cherrypicked, and I have three scum reads on the LQ wagon
I believe I've done so in reponse to ginAlso your trying to use cherry picking to try and discredit a reasoning? Addressing the reasoning itself would be better lol.
Clarify which ones for me? I may have missed it in responding to other parts of postsAlso you're dodging the interactions between LQ and karnos.-
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Lexa Goon
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I agree that this is often the case. I contend that it's also common for town to be cautious in labeling people scum or town while also building a case for similar reasons, either to avoid being pressured for a vote or read that they may not be certain of or to avoid entrenching themselves in labeling bias. This seems more likely in LQs case than in the null case for reasons such as those seen in 226 where he explicitly states that his methods of reasoning are more fluid and the implication is that it takes time to get to concrete reads.In post 971, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Here's the thing. This game is about psychology. One thing I'm actually going to do some theory work is the reaction caused by two scums and having one buddy the other.
Ya see, scum don't like calling their scum partners scum because they don't actually want them lynched, they also don't want to call their scum partners town because they don't want to take any heat for "town reading" someone when they flip scum.
So it is common scum psychology and henceforth the scum motivation to provide a town case for Karnos while not actually out right saying he thinks Karnos is town to not draw attention-
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Lexa Goon
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Lexa Goon
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Lexa Goon
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"How is this townie? I know townie can have bad logic but still I would take this as null. He also literally called out their behavior as null and still voted them anyway."
Keeping in mind I was reading the thread progressively through time, I interpreted the post as an attempt to bring in external information into the game to justify an RVS vote and progress the game into actual content. I've seen scum do one of those things at a time to accomplish that goal, but rarely both.
"You are getting a weird vibe from yet you are still town reading me. Also lq analysis was scummy as fuck. He went out of his way to smudge a null reads reputation not a town read. Honestly not going to bother posting the walls of conversation we had."
Your town read comes mostly from your dissection of the All Alone case and target on karnos from 627. I still don't know what to make of you exactly and at that point of time you were definitively rubbing me a weird way.
"You can't be serious lol. He literally made a empty reason to try and throw off the scum reads on karnos with out actually down facts. The formats similar to his town game? You can't be even more vague. I even pointed out the differences between that game and this and he backed out of it. This is the worst reason to town read someone ever."
It's extremely consistent with how he has previously been acting and similarly consistent with his stated methodology for getting to reads as outlined in the convo with Gin
"Don't see how this make lq town and I don't agree with gin read"
It doesn't, that was about a possible option for Gin based on a series of posts by him that rubbed me the wrong way. Obviously I didn't read him alignment indicative because of it.
"Honestly his whole defense of thinkbig doesn't ring town for me as scum can just pocket players by defending them and he hasn't actually got any real scum hunting feats. It could go either way for this point"
That's fair. I disagree, but that's fair.-
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Lexa Goon
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I don't think that's a fair representation of what I've been saying at all. In any case this dialogue has convinced me that the case against LQ is based in reason if nothing else.In post 980, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:
Also, I don't remember a single townie that thinks, I'm not going to give my opinion on a player because I'm afraid of the repercussions. I also don't think it's right to say that something that is done by scum is also done by townies when it's clearly not.In post 973, Lexa wrote:
I agree that this is often the case. I contend that it's also common for town to be cautious in labeling people scum or town while also building a case for similar reasons, either to avoid being pressured for a vote or read that they may not be certain of or to avoid entrenching themselves in labeling bias. This seems more likely in LQs case than in the null case for reasons such as those seen in 226 where he explicitly states that his methods of reasoning are more fluid and the implication is that it takes time to get to concrete reads.In post 971, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:Here's the thing. This game is about psychology. One thing I'm actually going to do some theory work is the reaction caused by two scums and having one buddy the other.
Ya see, scum don't like calling their scum partners scum because they don't actually want them lynched, they also don't want to call their scum partners town because they don't want to take any heat for "town reading" someone when they flip scum.
So it is common scum psychology and henceforth the scum motivation to provide a town case for Karnos while not actually out right saying he thinks Karnos is town to not draw attention
Like this entire time you defend him by going "Well I agree with what you're saying but town could do it to..."
P-Edit: If that was when I first joined, please read my 1st in game post. It was a literal shit post. The difference here is I just asked a couple questions and called some shit out; with Karnos, he had interactions with multiple players and no read was formed.
Oh and to shoot down ya argument that you gotta give him a minute to form a read, Karnos posted 147 times and not once, not even towards the end did LQ say he thought Karnos was town or scum.-
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Lexa
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Lexa Goon
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Lexa Goon
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Lexa Goon
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Lexa Goon
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3:30 am yoIn post 992, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:
Why couldn't you look at Karnos' ISO to see if he kept the same tone, the fuck?In post 987, Lexa wrote:I can't speak for LQ but looking at your iso and judging by his stated method of evaluating people, your first 29 posts are highly consistent in tone and style. I can only assume karnos's content was not.
gah brb-
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Lexa Goon
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Quick scan of Karnos's iso suggests his tone shifts around a lot, inconsistent between pushing for reactions to randomly being aggressive to arguing logically to blatant OMGUS
More importantly the question is whether LQ thought that his play matched up with his previous play or not what what reads he could draw from that-
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Lexa Goon
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Lexa Goon
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Lexa Goon
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Lexa Goon
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Lexa Goon
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Lexa Goon
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Claiming roleblocker (All Alone --> Pepchoninga --> Garmr). As far as I was concerned Alisae's claim was blatantly faked and designed to try and direct pressure away from him, I wasn't about to give (what I thought was) the scum team free information. Didn't expect a town to lie about their role so many times, though. Aimed my roleblock at my strongest scum reads n1 and n2 and then at Garmr n3 who I had concerns about "quitting but not really" as scum to avoid targeting given he'd been seen as more suspicious near the end of the day.In post 1192, ThinkBig wrote:@Lexa, why did you lie about being VT and why do you TR Shannon?
Town read on shannon was primarily based on their posting motivations (ref page 933 in my iso), their posts seemed almost exclusively town motivated from day 1 and in particular I didn't see any reason they would post the voting associations is 637 as they did. I haven't noticed anything since my catchup post that really enforces that position though, they've fallen a bit under my radar probably due to the short days and I'm thinking I'll have to take a closer look at them tomorrow. @anyone who's played with her, is she capable to pull of a deep-cover scum game like this?-
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Lexa Goon
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Why exactly is that interesting to note? With half the playerbase dead and a solid amount claiming VT 2/3 targets fulfilling those conditions seems statistically likely to me. And also assumes that Garmr is telling the truth with his VT claim. I'm happy to roleblock an active player to prove my role if proof is what you require.-
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I answered this earlier, in my eyes Alisae's claim was blatantly false, they were obviously acting solely to save their own skin, and I wasn't about to give the scum team free information based on a faked claim. Roleblock gets stronger as the game goes on and I can target scum killers so revealing my role there paints a target on my back for a scum kill.In post 1270, ThinkBig wrote:Why did you lie about being a vanilla?-
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Lexa Goon
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Alisae was the lynch...In post 1272, ThinkBig wrote:@Lexa: When and why did Garmr go from a slight town read to a strong enough scum read to roleblock him? Also, why didn't you role block Alisae if you felt he was lying?
Between three conf towns, two previous hard town reads, a slight town read, and a previously blocked scum read the risk that garmr was faking a quit was enough to throw a block at him in case he was the scum killer.-
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Lexa Goon
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While we wait for Pep, any arguements against me people want to ask that I haven't responded to? I recall TB asking things and seemingly being fine with my responses but also still seems fine with my lynch.
At work atm so can respond to things in depth after midnight or small things on periodic breaks.-
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Lexa Goon
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Whether it's blocking a kill or blocking some hidden action you or TB might have I'm more than happy to prove my role.In post 1351, TheRealGin-N-Tonic wrote:I kinda want to have her try and roleblock people to block a kill-
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Lexa Goon
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I find it hard to see an argument presented at the beginning of a day when the target had previously been active and under the radar as 'opportunistic as fuck'. Methinks you're hindsight biasing from liking Titus's join.In post 1412, ThinkBig wrote:Major FOS on Lexa. Her push on pep was opportunistic af-
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Lexa Goon
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Echoing, never seen anything like this beforeIn post 1453, shannon wrote:This is fascinating!-
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Lexa Goon
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- Joined: January 16, 2017
@Titus, here are the snippets on Pep from my major catchup post where I went through the game up to the end of d1 and looked for scum tells. To this point Pep had contributed literally nothing of value beyond some jokey posts in RVS and no one seemed to care or even notice, this despite it still being early in the day, the majority of other players getting wagoned/pressured, and the karnos lynch wagon having yet to have formed.
Based from posts 434 to 452 in Pep's isoJesus how has pepchoninga gone unnoticed? 434 he says "this is my playing". He hasn't contributed anything and somehow isn't getting read or pressured!!! I have to imaginesomeoneon the scum team would have noticed and pushed him by now. Moderate scum points given here.
IN POST EDIT: Upgraded to major scum points, popped my head into his iso and holy fuck someone vote his ass.
Confirmed my read on the above, the posts leading up to 444 are such obvious attempts to bus the top wagon in karnos and gain town points. And then immediately flip flops at 451 giving karnos a softball set up to deflect pressure away from him. Pep is top scum read at this point.-
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Lexa Goon
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Lexa Goon
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- Posts: 587
- Joined: January 16, 2017
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