Mini 1997: The Clownspiracy (Game Over!)

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: Rask
No Mercy!

[Gamma Emerald]

FoS: all

[Gamma Emerald]

I claim os lynchproof

[Gamma Emerald]

Nameclaim? Normally there is a reason why someone is a miller, that is hinted in the role-PM.

I'm that clown from that stupid show Kaito probably watches I believe it's called the Simpsons

Spoiler:

Krusty?

[Gamma Emerald]

Players:

03. Maki Harukawa
06. Kokichi Oma

[Gamma Emerald]

Actually doesn't Krusty get into trouble sometimes in the show

[Gamma Emerald]

shit I played the game fuck me

[Gamma Emerald]

Players:

03. Maki Harukawa
06. Kokichi Oma

ya i know

say, gamma, would you say your meta has changed significantly in the past 4 months or not?

Scum meta yes, town meta maaaaaybe? I feel like I get disengaged a bit more often as both alignments now

[Gamma Emerald]

btw I was tring to play like a jester to start cos clowns but when I started trying to solve I ended up saying fuck it
Do I take this game to seriously? I think I might.

[Gamma Emerald]

btw I was tring to play like a jester to start cos clowns but when I started trying to solve I ended up saying fuck it
Do I take this game to seriously? I think I might.

Why wouldn't you take this game seriously? I have never made a joke because mafia is not a laughing matter.

I'm so serious about this, let's find the scummers boyos!

But like I can't even be silly for an hour without trying to solve in some way

[Gamma Emerald]

Maki Harukawa (1, L-7)

: Raskolnikov

...

[Gamma Emerald]

A agree that reaction is rather LAMISTy
VOTE: StefanB

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma, skimming over your past games I see that you get scum read quite frequently as town. Why do you think that is?

Pedit Cedrick, you've proved 1 of your posts are non-fluff and I'm not even entirely convinced that set-up spec should qualify as something game-progressing, but I'll be generous. Naming a clown absolutely does not count as AI content. Apologies if you feel I've misrepped you. I'm feeling your response is genuine.

I believe that's because I'm quite unscrupulous with how I act. I refuse to let the opinions of others hamper my quest for what I feel is right.

[Gamma Emerald]

wait a second, why is no one weighing in on beefster

Let me: I think his Maria push is probably town, just that doesn't recognize the change in site meta wrt millers.

[Gamma Emerald]

I don't even have words to express myself right now.

Girls say they want a guy who is funny and spontaneous but when I tap on the window at night dressed as a clown it's all screaming.

You think you proved something but you didn’t. I’d probably keep my mouth shut also if I were you.

No where did i say it was optimal play to do that. I personally think it’s best not the claim at all and just play the game. If you don’t act scummy you won’t ever have to worry being investigated.

No? Proper cop play is not to investigate scummy people. If you cop the days lynch guess what? You either have to claim your inno or you wasted an invest because your guilty got lynched anyway. The goal of a cop imo is to sort people who probably won't get sorted otherwise.

[Gamma Emerald]

hey koki. you claimed not town? wanna talk about it?

Why do you feel the need to ask about this?

[Gamma Emerald]

like i get this is a standard opening of yours, and is NAI. lets just talk about it

It feels to me that you are stretching things here. What do you think of that?

[Gamma Emerald]

nah im fully capable of talking to both you and cedrick. I just didn't want our little chat to drown out what you said!

alright lemme clear something up:
KOKI DID NOT CLAIM ANTI-TOWN
CEDRICK DID NOT STATE MILLER-CLAIM POST #1 IS OPTIMAL PLAY

Why are you stating the obvious. Feels LAMISTy

[Gamma Emerald]

cedrick is your joking bit a posting restriction or just shits and giggles?

What is this question. Feels like busy work. Also not a good question for town to ask; why do you care about posting restrictions?

[Gamma Emerald]

Actually gamma I'll answer you right now.

I don't really see what I'm stretching? I'm just trying to spark some discussion, point out a few things, and see where it goes. Its all for reactions my dude. Thats how I get reads.

Pedit cause I don't want people to feel like I'm misrepping them. That irritates me. So I wanted to be explicit and transparent.

Okay. Felt like you were just trying to be like "LOOK GUYS I GET IT I WAS WRONG AND I CAN SEE THAT". Thanks pal.

[Gamma Emerald]

Nope! He put words in my mouth. I asked a question, never claimed it. If he really thought I claimed it he would have voted me.

He said. "you claimed not town"
and you did
I obv know you're kidding but maybe he didn't what am I missing

...

[Gamma Emerald]

btw never lynch wh4t this game.

Wh'/?

Is it because you have knowledge that he is town because you are scum? It really seems like it. I am townreading Wh4t, but I cannot see anybody ever being so confident about a townread on Page 4, unless they are scum and know it for a fact.

Big scumpoints.

I do not like this approach to the game. idk why though, it just gut pings me

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma, skimming over your past games I see that you get scum read quite frequently as town. Why do you think that is?

Pedit Cedrick, you've proved 1 of your posts are non-fluff and I'm not even entirely convinced that set-up spec should qualify as something game-progressing, but I'll be generous. Naming a clown absolutely does not count as AI content. Apologies if you feel I've misrepped you. I'm feeling your response is genuine.

How do you kill a circus clown?

Go for the juggler.

I never said it had to be AI. But it wasn’t fluff. My statement still holds true. Your expectation of posts in rvs is unrealistic. Not every player is going through serious post every time they post. I certainly am not. Now I do have to limit my more useless posts due to the rules, there is still going to be posts I make that aren’t always going to be game advancing as will others and you know what? That’s ok.

Even now, there isn’t much to go off of. I’d say the scummiest person so far is you for your unrealistic expectation but having a different opinion isn’t AI. I don’t really see much to comment on atm but I haven’t been reading very intently. I’m in an altered mental state atm so I’m not prepared to do in-depth shit right now.

P.edit - lol he hasn’t earned that designation yet. He’s in a “wouldn’t mind a lynch” list right now.

I love your jokes by the way. I don't think scum does it, so massive townpoints to you.

How are the jokes AI at all?

[Gamma Emerald]

Setup Information

Ground Rules

- This setup is non-bastard. There is no randomness, explicitly non-normal roles/mechanics, or moderator lies.
- This setup is explicitly 10:3. There are no 3rd parties.

For people actually speculating about jesters

[Gamma Emerald]

Do you think it's a good question for scum to ask?

Yeah nah I have a bigger issue with misreps and whatnot. Actually bu and stef could attest I fucked up with regards to that in our last mini normal.

I mean if it is a posting restriction it could be a balancer for a power.

[Gamma Emerald]

btw never lynch wh4t this game.

Wh'/?

Is it because you have knowledge that he is town because you are scum? It really seems like it. I am townreading Wh4t, but I cannot see anybody ever being so confident about a townread on Page 4, unless they are scum and know it for a fact.

Big scumpoints.

I mean, you could like, ask about the read but okay MASSIVE scumpoints.

You know what that's probably why I don't like it: it's making reads rather than asking questions and legitimately sorting.
VOTE: Kiana Kaslana

[Gamma Emerald]

Do you not find suspicious the fact that Raskol scumreads Beefster for asking about Ronald Mcdonald but turns a blind eye to Stefan (coincidentally, a scumread of mine too) who blatantly rolefishes for both flavour and role?

Okay, so this is actually showing some level of thinking. Stefan's reaction made more sense in the moment and he was very upfront. Beefster asked in joking way wrt me and like put bullshit shade on maki for being miller.

or maybe not?
UNVOTE:

[Gamma Emerald]

And the rolefishing:

I didn't rolefish!!!!!!!!

I asked if the claim was real or a joke. (We were in RVS and I don't know the players involved)
I asked for a name with the claim and if there was a reason why this person is a miller.

I have only very old meta on millers. My main meta is unfortunatly tigereaten. And if I remember correctly as a miller I was grilled more than once about the last point. (It was a soccer-Upick and I chose a German player, but the mods were fans of England)
I thought those question as standard. I see now that my plan is outdated in that fashion.

Then I asked why Maki did not remember the name of her role.

Can any of you who are stating I was rolefishing how any of this was going after the role? What is the reason for a potential mafia-me to do that?

Well it's not actually rolefishing, I'll state that. I don't think I've ever felt it was. In fact your question was pretty good. I just feel like other things are LAMISTy. Also, are you current?

[Gamma Emerald]

@Gamma

, reads?

not really concrete but like, I kinda feel like Arch was a bit suspect for some things, Maki is kinda half and half, don't like them doubling down on someone's mistake, Stefan is a bit of a supect as well, Kiana is scumlean cos while I feel like they're pushing reads rather than actually sorting there are exceptions
Not really too sure on any townreads yet which kinda sucks

[Gamma Emerald]

kokichi, maki and kaito are all themed the same and I think that started from a danganronpa theme game. Maki and kaito are well known/revealed alts, kokichi it looks like is a main otoh
I have some history with maki but it's a little old since I took a break, I also have a little less with kaito (even in those games he seemed to stick to his hydra pt?) and kokichi (and gamma too but thats it)
kiana mainly connects to just maki I think, I've never played with her though

fyi Kaito is dunnstral
kokichi is not an alt, that's his main

[Gamma Emerald]

Now I am current.

I feel I should take a look to the reaction to Beefster there could be somethink.

I am still thinking about were me vote should go.

Thanks for the alt, Makis main is...

MariaR
As for them doubling down it feels like she's trying to continue a push she knows is bad

[Gamma Emerald]

Arch's push on Kokichi's alleged non-town claim

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Okay the reads feel not very helpful.
About the Makiread:

Maki stated in post 1 about this(132), that she belives that whatever Kokichi is doing is not aligment-indicative and the fight with Archwing is stupid.
The next 3 post critizice the vote from Kokichi towards Archwing.
Mind you if I would guess from the post then Maki sees Archwing vs Kokichi as tvt.

How Gamma comes to his conclusion is mindblowing.
Not paying attention points to scum.

And yet she still said Kokichi claimed not-town. which is what Archwing claimed and was proven wrong on.

[Gamma Emerald]

Stefan let me break this down.
>Kokichi says "what would you think if I did X"
>Arch think Kokichi is actually doing X
>Kokichi tells Arch they got it wrong
>Arch corrects themself
>Maki says Arch's statement was right
>I point that out as strange
Is this simple enough for you to understand?

[Gamma Emerald]

What would you guys say if I said I wasn't town?

hey koki. you claimed not town? wanna talk about it?

nah im fully capable of talking to both you and cedrick. I just didn't want our little chat to drown out what you said!

alright lemme clear something up:
KOKI DID NOT CLAIM ANTI-TOWN
CEDRICK DID NOT STATE MILLER-CLAIM POST #1 IS OPTIMAL PLAY

Nope! He put words in my mouth. I asked a question, never claimed it. If he really thought I claimed it he would have voted me.

He said. "you claimed not town"
and you did
I obv know you're kidding but maybe he didn't what am I missing

...

[Gamma Emerald]

What would you guys say if I said I wasn't town?

hey koki. you claimed not town? wanna talk about it?

nah im fully capable of talking to both you and cedrick. I just didn't want our little chat to drown out what you said!

alright lemme clear something up:
KOKI DID NOT CLAIM ANTI-TOWN
CEDRICK DID NOT STATE MILLER-CLAIM POST #1 IS OPTIMAL PLAY

Nope! He put words in my mouth. I asked a question, never claimed it. If he really thought I claimed it he would have voted me.

He said. "you claimed not town"
and you did
I obv know you're kidding but maybe he didn't what am I missing

...

BRUH
Arch said Kokichi claimed not town
that's CORRECT but Kokichi was joking and Arch didn't think so sweet jesus man

And yet Arch said they were wrong about it. That's my problem, you doubled down on something they gave up on.

[Gamma Emerald]

Let me settle this for anyone who doesn't get it:
Kokichi (the character) is from a video game who is known for lying and Kokichi (the player) follows that gimmick a lot so his first post was very clearly a lie or him wanting us to think it etc so it was NAI and didn't mean anything.
Arch questioned him on it and Kokichi said "Don't put words in my mouth" when Arch didn't do that at all Arch just called him out on the exact statement Kokichi made so he's lying and it's stupidly annoying
seeing how he turned it serious he can be scummy
Pedit: Sup?

Actually this helps me out a bit, thanks. So what you're saying is Arch was right, and Kokichi is scummy for making a big deal out of it?

[Gamma Emerald]

idc if Arch admitted he was wrong Kokichi's stance around it was still utter crap

yeh I get that this is your logic, not sure if I agree yet

[Gamma Emerald]

Stefan I want your stance on my last couple of posts.

[Gamma Emerald]

I recall a game I read, where he lurked until LyLo and then started acting serious closer to the time. He ended up being scum in that game, so I'm hesitant to take someone's town read off of two posts at face value. I'm not advocating a lynch on him as it stands, there are worse slots.

Who is this talking about? and which game?

[Gamma Emerald]

I recall a game I read, where he lurked until LyLo and then started acting serious closer to the time. He ended up being scum in that game, so I'm hesitant to take someone's town read off of two posts at face value. I'm not advocating a lynch on him as it stands, there are worse slots.

Who is this talking about? and which game?

I'm discussing Maki's town read on Dunnstral. The game name I can't remember off the top of my head but Maki and Kokichi were also in that game, Dunnstral was scum with Drealmerz and somene else beginning with D. I'll dig it up.

Kinda sounds like Aeronaut's cancelled mini but that didn't make it to lylo iirc
@Arch but Kokichi

isn't

an alt.

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma:
Our discusion:
I can see where someone get the litteral expresion re the Archwing-Kokichi, I still can't see how you got to your interpretation of the interaction between Kokichi-Maki. This why I am asking people.

Well my error was to think Kokichi was the one to trust, not Maki. I was trusting him and as such I had a skewed view of the situation. Once I realized he wasn't trustworthy by Maki's explanation it all snapped into place.

[Gamma Emerald]

bad list is bad

yawn

[Gamma Emerald]

town to scum,

{archwing}
{bujaber, koki, stef}
{cedrick, maki}
{wh4t, gamma, brass, kaito, beef} ****
{kiana, rask}

* = null line. above it are slight townleans, nothing more.

Why do you only give "slight townleans"?

[Gamma Emerald]

2. 3 of the roles were randomised to be mafia. Any necessary changes were made to fit their new alignments (for example, no Mafia Innocent Child).

I'm such a derp. I thought there were only two scum, until I analysed the VC and realised that doesn't make sense from a balance perspective.

InB4 everyone scumreads me for a fake town tell.

y tho
also I've been thinking you're town before this so *shrug*

[Gamma Emerald]

Spicy read: BuJaber/Brass/Cedrick scum team.

Kokichi can go back to being town. I'm flip flopping on Arch. I can see where he came from, but I think he made a few missteps as he doesn't seem to do well under pressure. I think it's too early to call the mob on him just yet but I admit I may be biased with my earlier experience of him. I hesitate because his readslist is a little more controversial than I'd expect of scum.

Why thos elast 2?

[Gamma Emerald]

I recall quite a few criticisms on Kiana's "point system" scumhunting. It's not AI. I've done it both as town and as scum. Her methods might be strange, but they're not scummy. Slight town lean here for making good points on 191 and 192

The system isn't horrible but Kiana didn't seem to ask much questions, and it's kinda against meta for her to do that method

[Gamma Emerald]

Hi, I am back.

VOTE: kiana

Was going to wait for response first but I have mixed feelings on arch wagon.
Feels like overexaggerating reads and really trying to get hard judgments where it doesn't feel realistic. There is some complexity to her credit but I'm not feeling it as genuine.

VOTE: Kiana

Wow, my scumread is voting me. Congratulations, your scumpoints have been doubled. It proves that I'm right on the mark.

Really classy. OMGUS reading.

[Gamma Emerald]

tfw Kiana is obviously pushing an agenda

[Gamma Emerald]

I recall quite a few criticisms on Kiana's "point system" scumhunting. It's not AI. I've done it both as town and as scum. Her methods might be strange, but they're not scummy. Slight town lean here for making good points on 191 and 192

The system isn't horrible but Kiana didn't seem to ask much questions, and it's kinda against meta for her to do that method

What do you know about my meta? The only completed game we have involved you self-hammering my slot and throwing the game for town.

I was ISOing and found this: what the fuck is

that

supposed to mean? Just because I got pocketed once I'm not allowed to meta read people?
As for why ask questions since I saw you ask that as well, how about the fact that you might not understand what the situation is and asking questions helps you do that? That's how I found out I was wrong with the Kokichi situation.

[Gamma Emerald]

Arch has 34 posts, I see a few "reaction tests" and no scum hunting.

VOTE: Arch

Townpoints to brassherald for this good vote.

Sorry buddy.

VOTE: Archwing

I would usually give townpoints for this good vote, but there is a maximum cap on these. Since Wh4t already hit the cap, it can't go higher from this small gesture. But, a pat on the back for you.

The thing that's concerning me about Kiana being scum is this: if she is this is suuuuuper townspewing for Archwing.

[Gamma Emerald]

Kiana is an okay lynch I guess, but I want Arch flipped.

Bad reads
Arch and Kiana are likely not both scum aligned

[Gamma Emerald]

I'm tempted to give free townpoints to people who call me Princess Kiana but we all know how well that worked out the last time.

There is only one princess, and that is Princess Spiffeh
but seriously what have you done to deserve any respect

[Gamma Emerald]

Like a point system is fine. Arguing anyone who disagrees is scum? Absolute garbage. You're likely to end up with more scumread than townreads and guess who looks like an idiot then?

[Gamma Emerald]

@arch
would you be willing to vote kiana with me?

Mate, I really do not care if my scumreads vote on me. Weird that you have to make an exaggerated theatric to publically call for your buddy to vote me, that suggests scum do not have daytalk. That makes the game easier for us, I guess.

And this is some top-rank hot garbage. Of course scum aren't going to co-ordinate votes this frickin early into the game in their scumchat: that causes weird ass naked votes.

[Gamma Emerald]

Okay fair enough good approach.

What do you think of Kokichi? I find it difficult to ignore scummy things just because people tell me x player always does this.

Gamma seems a little too quiet. Do you have experience playing with him?

What is your current read on

Sorry I had to go do irl stuff thi morning then I had to clean the house

[Gamma Emerald]

Voting for your scumreads are really the best way to earn town points?

But scum can vote scum. What would stop a scum from just sheeping you to earn townpoints?

I have to definitely reevaluate my read of you after this.

No, obviously not. Can you please improve your reading comprehension.

I awarded townpoints to players who voted for my scumreads before I even entered the game. That confirms they couldn't "copied my answers", so they are getting the correct answers organically and will therefore earn townpoints.

And whyyyyy do you think your reading capabilities are so good might I ask? I think I know how people felt when I was new and talking about my teamguess skills now, oof

[Gamma Emerald]

I like kiana's system. Makes it very clear where she stands and how her reads change throughtout the game.

lmao the whiteknight is real
this is the de facto lynch if Kiana flips town

[Gamma Emerald]

But she's producing content. Anything she comes across she thinks is townie she's giving townpoints for anything she thinks is scummy she gives scumpoints for. I don't get what you don't like about it.

How about you actually look into the system, see

why

she is doing what she's doing, rather than read the surface level shit.

[Gamma Emerald]

In summary this is Kiana's playstyle

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma has added fuel to both fires now (please check his ISO). First he egged on the Arch wagon and now he's egging on the Kiana wagon. I find his method disingenuous in that he doesn't seem to care about responses to his pushes; he seems to care more about presenting accusations instead AKA scum shading. Gamma seems pretty certain about scum Kiana but has not voted. Actions speak louder than words after all. It's as if he's a vulture circling and waiting for the best prey.

So, if I change my mind that's a scummy thing now? Well that's cool to know, guess I'll just play like Kiana /s. And I'm not even doing what you're saying. I don't think I've really explicitly said I've scumread Kiana, and the mindset I'm in rn is "help the person with tough love". So rather than completely shut Kiana off I'm opting to try to communicate with them a bit about why their method doesn't work.

[Gamma Emerald]

I like kiana's system. Makes it very clear where she stands and how her reads change throughtout the game.

lmao the whiteknight is real
this is the de facto lynch if Kiana flips town

I agree it's a strange post, but why

that

conclusion?

Because it sounds like what alignment informed scum would say

[Gamma Emerald]

I recall quite a few criticisms on Kiana's "point system" scumhunting. It's not AI. I've done it both as town and as scum. Her methods might be strange, but they're not scummy. Slight town lean here for making good points on 191 and 192

The system isn't horrible but Kiana didn't seem to ask much questions, and it's kinda against meta for her to do that method

What do you know about my meta? The only completed game we have involved you self-hammering my slot and throwing the game for town.

I was ISOing and found this: what the fuck is

that

supposed to mean? Just because I got pocketed once I'm not allowed to meta read people?
As for why ask questions since I saw you ask that as well, how about the fact that you might not understand what the situation is and asking questions helps you do that? That's how I found out I was wrong with the Kokichi situation.

What I am saying is, you don't know a single thing about my meta so please stop stating it like you're an expert.

Self hammering as town is bad for town. And to protect a scum? That makes it doubly worse. Shame on you.

I'm "expert" enough to tell this isn't the norm. And yeah I get self-hammering is bad but sometimes I feel it needs to be done. And okay shame me for getting pocketed see where that gets you

[Gamma Emerald]

Like a point system is fine. Arguing anyone who disagrees is scum? Absolute garbage. You're likely to end up with more scumread than townreads and guess who looks like an idiot then?

I don't have more scumreads than townreads, so stop making yourself look more the idiot, you self-hammering nincompoop.

Alright if that's the way we're gonna play this you got this coming to you.
VOTE: Kiana
The extra mention of my self-hammer tells me she intends to use it to devalue anything I say, so I'm done with this now.

[Gamma Emerald]

Voting for your scumreads are really the best way to earn town points?

But scum can vote scum. What would stop a scum from just sheeping you to earn townpoints?

I have to definitely reevaluate my read of you after this.

No, obviously not. Can you please improve your reading comprehension.

I awarded townpoints to players who voted for my scumreads before I even entered the game. That confirms they couldn't "copied my answers", so they are getting the correct answers organically and will therefore earn townpoints.

And whyyyyy do you think your reading capabilities are so good might I ask? I think I know how people felt when I was new and talking about my teamguess skills now, oof

In Be Yourself Mafia, I correctly caught 2/3 of the scum; NSG and Mulch. I didn't know there was one more scum, but I caught Cheeky as well early game. What have you done? Lynch yourself? My, reading capabilities have been proven to be leagues above yours, so if you would refrain from being condescending to newbies, maybe you can improve.

I also thought I had good reads as a newbie, but I know now not to let it get to my head.

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma has added fuel to both fires now (please check his ISO). First he egged on the Arch wagon and now he's egging on the Kiana wagon. I find his method disingenuous in that he doesn't seem to care about responses to his pushes; he seems to care more about presenting accusations instead AKA scum shading. Gamma seems pretty certain about scum Kiana but has not voted. Actions speak louder than words after all. It's as if he's a vulture circling and waiting for the best prey.

So, if I change my mind that's a scummy thing now? Well that's cool to know, guess I'll just play like Kiana /s. And I'm not even doing what you're saying. I don't think I've really explicitly said I've scumread Kiana, and the mindset I'm in rn is "help the person with tough love". So rather than completely shut Kiana off I'm opting to try to communicate with them a bit about why their method doesn't work.

That's fine but your arguments about my method are not convincing at all.

Mhm. How about the fact it can totally be gamed?

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma has added fuel to both fires now (please check his ISO). First he egged on the Arch wagon and now he's egging on the Kiana wagon. I find his method disingenuous in that he doesn't seem to care about responses to his pushes; he seems to care more about presenting accusations instead AKA scum shading. Gamma seems pretty certain about scum Kiana but has not voted. Actions speak louder than words after all. It's as if he's a vulture circling and waiting for the best prey.

So, if I change my mind that's a scummy thing now? Well that's cool to know, guess I'll just play like Kiana /s. And I'm not even doing what you're saying. I don't think I've really explicitly said I've scumread Kiana, and the mindset I'm in rn is "help the person with tough love". So rather than completely shut Kiana off I'm opting to try to communicate with them a bit about why their method doesn't work.

That's fine but your arguments about my method are not convincing at all.

Mhm. How about the fact it can totally be gamed?

That's not convincing. You must prove to me that it can be gamed in a fashion that is significantly worse than whatever current method you're using.

Well it's kinda hard to describe my method, but what I do is basically analyze content and tell whether it should be coming from town or scum in the circumstances. Take my reaction to BuJaber's defense of you. I saw it, thought about the context and what he was trying to say, and determined that it was a bit too trusting to be pure. As such I reached the conclusion of it being scum if you're town via him knowing it's town motivated and defending it as such. It might not be perfect, but it's not one that you can game easily, there's always room to change my mind. Honestly I don't even know what your doing here either, I'm more voting you for the discrediting via the self-hammer mention than your playstyle, though the playstyle is certainly a factor. It's like 65% the discredit, 35% the playstyle.

[Gamma Emerald]

This argument by Bujaber is really good and you really should be engaging with this.

As for Kiana's system. People are disagreeing with her reasoning then calling her system bad. That's wrong. If you disagree with why she awarded x player townpoints or scumpoints argue against that. Saying the system is bad is stupid. Also her argumenys are generally pretty good imo. She's noticing stuff I would miss. Same with wh4t. His earlier pushes seemed suspicious but I'm starting to question my read.

Instead of whining about how your inferiority complex gets triggered by me when I only joined this site much later than you.

EXCUSE ME WHAT?!??!?!!?!?!? INFERIORITY COMPLEX? WHAT MAKES YOU THINK I HAVE THAT? You just, bfeu;wgjfnbjqbfsdav
Screw. Off.
As for BuJaber's argument it's not that in-depth but sure, let's take a look at it. I think her system is bad

because

of the way town and scumpoints are awarded. If she's awarding them for having similar thoughts, then there's the possibility you get pocketed by scum who are pushing the same agenda as you (which btw I feel like Kiana regardless of alignment is pushing an agenda). There's also the fact town are less likely to agree with you imo because they don't have that same desire to get in someone's good graces scum does. So as I see it it helps scum and hurts town. Kiana mentioned she only awards points for thinking similarly if they had the thought before she could state it, which is okay, but I'd like her to cite the examples for me. As for the arguments being good can you describe

how

, BuJaber?

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: Kokichi Oma
Actually this is scum. He's trying to play both sides by telling Kiana to claim and then suggesting an Archwing quicklynch.

[Gamma Emerald]

Maybe it's because. I think both are maf. Which I said before either wagon started

Do you still think that given how they became each other's counterwagons?

[Gamma Emerald]

I don't worry about "counter wagons" literally in that game that just ended you and mom were "counter wagons" and were both scum. I go off who I think is scummy.

And yet we didn't push each other then.

[Gamma Emerald]

You voted each other. So you're saying mafia partners are incapable of pushing each other?

Actually yeah that's right. Fuck my shitty memory, it can't remember anything that actually matters.

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: Kokichi Oma
Actually this is scum. He's trying to play both sides by telling Kiana to claim and then suggesting an Archwing quicklynch.

This looks reactive / going after low hanging fruit.

Also, the post before it is strange. Gamma points to Kiana as having an agenda but admits that having an agenda is not necessarily scummy. And he also points out that she gives town points for agreeing and scum points for disagreeing. I can see his point I guess, but that sort of reaction is pretty normal. It's this lovely thing called confirmation bias and it's something I fall prey to all the time. At worst, she's simply wrong about her suspicions.

Idk there's confirmation bias and then there's conscious perpetuation of the previous reads. It feels like she's consciously enforcing the idea that her reads are law. And I feel like an agenda can be scummy but in this case it isn't scummy unless the reads feel scum-motivated. As for the quoted post, how is KO low-hanging fruit? I'll grant you reactive though.

[Gamma Emerald]

...maki - kiana can't be teamed though.

why those two?

[Gamma Emerald]

Actually thanks Stefan, I'll keep pursuing this but I'm thinking Kiana/Kokichi could be buddies

[Gamma Emerald]

I think the strongest negative interactions aren't even fighting or voting (which good scum do to distance) but kind of personal actions and minor things if that makes sense, maki and kiana's small interactions feel too natural for scum to fake and scum don't even have much incentive to fake things that most people wouldn't even care about (scum would just distance a more expected way I think).

Alright, that makes sense I guess.

[Gamma Emerald]

Archwing is town, stahp

[Gamma Emerald]

Also Gamma, you haven't even addressed to the fact that I have shown to scumread both of them, before the "wagons" on them were relevant. Seeing as that's the basis of you vote on me, what other reason do you scumread me?

Well the read has changed a bit after realizing you haven't voted Kiana, only Arch. I think either you're promoting both of them as mislynches or soft-bussing Kiana while pushing Archwing, either way I think you're scum. As for what you're trying to counterpoint I think you pushing them before the wagons don't matter that much as you still pushed Kiana to claim right before you suggested a quicklynch on Arch.

[Gamma Emerald]

Archwing is town, stahp

Since when do you have that read? The last one was that Kiana and Archwing can't be both scum. You were quite suspicious of Archwing earlier.

Since I determined Arch was probably a mislynch

[Gamma Emerald]

- At least one player has the role of Vanilla Townie.
...

[Gamma Emerald]

Also Gamma, you haven't even addressed to the fact that I have shown to scumread both of them, before the "wagons" on them were relevant. Seeing as that's the basis of you vote on me, what other reason do you scumread me?

Well the read has changed a bit after realizing you haven't voted Kiana, only Arch. I think either you're promoting both of them as mislynches or soft-bussing Kiana while pushing Archwing, either way I think you're scum. As for what you're trying to counterpoint I think you pushing them before the wagons don't matter that much as you still pushed Kiana to claim right before you suggested a quicklynch on Arch.

What???????????????????????? How does any of this make sense based on what I've posted and what other people have confirmed I've posted.

What "things you've posted"? I haven't seen anything to make this untrue.

[Gamma Emerald]

Hello! Nice to see you again.

[Gamma Emerald]

A agree that reaction is rather LAMISTy
VOTE: StefanB

Why did you wait?

Because I wasn't really paying attention until I was brought to it

[Gamma Emerald]

Well it's kinda hard to describe my method, but what I do is basically analyze content and tell whether it should be coming from town or scum in the circumstances. Take my reaction to BuJaber's defense of you. I saw it, thought about the context and what he was trying to say, and determined that it was a bit too trusting to be pure. As such I reached the conclusion of it being scum if you're town via him knowing it's town motivated and defending it as such. It might not be perfect, but it's not one that you can game easily, there's always room to change my mind. Honestly I don't even know what your doing here either, I'm more voting you for the discrediting via the self-hammer mention than your playstyle, though the playstyle is certainly a factor. It's like 65% the discredit, 35% the playstyle.

Does my method not analyze content and tell whether it is coming from town or scum under the circumstances? What makes your method different? What makes your method better? My method makes my reads more transparent by assigning objective points numericals to actions that I find alignment indicative. This allows me to make a readslist fast and early, and all my reasonings are substantiated. What can you present in your favour for your own method?

If there is always room the change your mind, can't that game you more easily. Again, I cite Be Yourself Mafia as evidence that you can be gamed and me, much less so. Do you have counterevidence to prove otherwise or are your accusations baseless. If you think I can be gamed easily, prove it with evidence, not hypotheticals.

Am I not allowed to discredit you after you started it by discrediting me? Is that necessarily a scummy thing to do. What about playstyle, is that necessarily coming from scum? If they are not, then why are you knowingly voting town?

Honestly you have a point, my method doesn't really do much to make showing my reads easy. though I don't recall you using that system in Be Yourself ever.
When did I discredit you? If it's about the method then okay then, sorry, but anything else you'll have to explain why you felt that way. As for the playstyle it's less "the playstyle is scummy" as "the playstyle isn't what you normally do".

EXCUSE ME WHAT?!??!?!!?!?!? INFERIORITY COMPLEX? WHAT MAKES YOU THINK I HAVE THAT? You just, bfeu;wgjfnbjqbfsdav
Screw. Off.
As for BuJaber's argument it's not that in-depth but sure, let's take a look at it. I think her system is bad

because

of the way town and scumpoints are awarded. If she's awarding them for having similar thoughts, then there's the possibility you get pocketed by scum who are pushing the same agenda as you (which btw I feel like Kiana regardless of alignment is pushing an agenda). There's also the fact town are less likely to agree with you imo because they don't have that same desire to get in someone's good graces scum does. So as I see it it helps scum and hurts town. Kiana mentioned she only awards points for thinking similarly if they had the thought before she could state it, which is okay, but I'd like her to cite the examples for me. As for the arguments being good can you describe

how

, BuJaber?

No, you are the one who should screw off. I am trying out a new system and you are taking a dump on it with unconvincing arguments. I am not sure if you are anti-newbie or anti-women or are upset that one with both of those traits can be better than you but all I know is you are getting in my way and playing anti-town.

With your own method you get pocketed by scum who are both pushing the same agenda as you and not pushing the same agenda as you. At least I can say my method is better on this front. I mentioned I only awards points for thinking similarly if they had the thought before I could state it, which is okay, but you should go find that evidence for yourself instead of making me doing busywork for you. I am not your little bitch. It is very obvious from my previous posts which you are clearly not reading. I don't know if you are not reading because you are stubborn, lazy, bad at reading, or just plain scum. Unfortunately three of those options are town-possible and only one is scum. Unfortunately again, only way I can maintain my sane respect for you is if you are the latter.

This is a decent point I guess, but I'd still rather do my method since I at least feel like it gets results. I should really compile my town winrate. As for why I'm not reading it's because of the first two, and if you can't respect me for being town who doesn't think your method is perfect then I guess that's on you.

This is being posted late cos I had to do irl things

[Gamma Emerald]

Idk there's confirmation bias and then there's conscious perpetuation of the previous reads. It feels like she's consciously enforcing the idea that her reads are law. And I feel like an agenda can be scummy but in this case it isn't scummy unless the reads feel scum-motivated. As for the quoted post, how is KO low-hanging fruit? I'll grant you reactive though.

My reads are as law to me as my vote. Everything to me is absolute. If you don't agree with my reads you are either bad town or scum. At worst you only get my vote, but I only have one vote to give to three scum and X number of bad town. I don't have godlike powers here.

Okay I don't like this mindset. Why do you seem so unaffected by the idea of lynching town? And you say you don't have godlike powers, which is top kek cos you seem to believe you have godlike reads.

[Gamma Emerald]

I had a dream that I was a muffler last night. I woke up exhausted!"

I don't understand this joke either :*

A muffler is another term for an exhaust pipe on a car. It is also a scarf

[Gamma Emerald]

Wait Waitt waitwaitwait
Kiana: did you just accuse me of being anti-women? I'll have you fucking know that I ended up flipping my shit over someone talking about catfishing (I didn't know what it was then but it was still bad) wrt MariaR (Maki). So don't you even start. Honestly that's kind of a scumbag accusation to make, I haven't been attacking Maki the whole time so you're just making shit up.
I have half I mind to replace out cos I don't wanna be in this game if I'm going to be accused of such things

[Gamma Emerald]

I checked Be Yourself mafia again and I noticed that there are hints of Kiana's style here in there. Kiana do you have any other games where you did this? If not why are you doing this method now?

[Gamma Emerald]

oh hell no
I didn't say she was scum for it I just called it rude. And this appealing doesn't feel that great to me either.
Kiana didn't you FOS Rask? You might be onto something

[Gamma Emerald]

No, that in particular is NAI because she talked about it even in a postgame, but I still want her dead. Suit yourself though.

She accused RC of it though, not me. And I love how despite calling what I'm getting upset about NAI you're trying to appeal to me still.
VOTE: Raskolnikov

[Gamma Emerald]

despite calling what I'm getting upset about NAI you're trying to appeal to me still.

Wait why is trying to get people to vote with me a bad thing?

No, but the way you did it felt like "hey this person is annoying you why don't you lynch them instead of working out your problems?"

[Gamma Emerald]

If Gamma was after lynching Kiana with no question asked, Ras offer would have been easy.
So that was pretty townie.

Kokichi wins the *if you reread this game, you will be sorry about this posts award"

Ras: That was pretty much a okay how to get the lynch is not important, I want to get it no matter what.
I agree with Gamma this is more of a scummindset.

@Mod: Is Wh4t really voting Archwing and Beefster. I thought he unvoted the former.

The real joke is Mathdino's inability to do basic math.
Fixed.

You wanna do anything with what you're saying or do you just want to posture?

[Gamma Emerald]

Wooow at that reaction from cedrick. That is a sudden change in tone and style. It reeks of scum implosion. That 1v1 with wh4t is very enlightening. I heavily suspect this is TvS and it is very likely cedrick is the scum here. For someone who was in good shape and being widely townread to flip out like that doesn't sound like a townie POV.

VOTE: Cedrick

Wh4t is now a townlean.

Beef is so far off here. Koki seems to be low key encouraging wagons without trying. Arch is probably scum here too but I'd prefer a cedrick lynch.

Kaito needs to participate more. Hiraki comes off as trying too hard I'm having difficulty sorting him at the moment. Rest are more or less where I had them before.

Kiana continuing to show why her style is so effective. It puts pressure on people without needing to form wagons on them. It sparks and encourages discussion and arguing. It exposes scum who can't handle pressure. It makes it easier to sort people because people are forced to tall about actual game relevant things and defend/attack people.

I admit it would suck if everyone played that way and shit will get personal every game but you know why there are so many like her on MS? Because it fucking works.
If she does this as scum kudos to her she'll beat me every time but I am not voting for her anytime soon.

This is why it's difficult for me to sort hiraki. Gut says town but the way he's going after Kiana is unnatural.

I don't agree with your Cedrick lynch. He is obviously town to me. However your reasoning is fair enough and it will be noted.

Thank you for your kind words regarding my system. It appears that you are the only one of the few with critical thinking skills here.

"I admit it would suck if everyone played that way and shit will get personal every game but you know why there are so

many

like her on MS? " I think you mean that there are so little like me. Most people do stuff that don't work which is why town loses.

You know what here's what I want to know: you read people off having the same reads, but what initially determines your reads?

[Gamma Emerald]

A three-legged dog walks into a bar and says to the bartender, "I’m looking for the man who shot my paw."

I don't get this joke either.

This level of English is beyond me.

I'm so glad that brass explained Juggle Fever though.

paw = pa, like dad

[Gamma Emerald]

I don't get this joke either.

Did you hear the news? FedEx and UPS are merging. They’re going to go by the name Fed-Up from now on.

In western movies “paw” is daddy. It’s cliche in westerns for the son to try and avenge their fathers death. Confrontations usually taking place in bars or saloons

Paw is also a dog’s foot.


The muffler joke. Muffler is part of the exhaust system of a car.

btw do you play Ace Attorney?

[Gamma Emerald]

Okay. Full speed ahead on an Arch lynch

Why was Cedrick's Wh4t push such an obstacle?
Also I read Wh4t's name as "Whatfor"

[Gamma Emerald]

You know what here's what I want to know: you read people off having the same reads, but what initially determines your reads?

Gamma she's already explained this point.

Voting for your scumreads are really the best way to earn town points?

But scum can vote scum. What would stop a scum from just sheeping you to earn townpoints?

I have to definitely reevaluate my read of you after this.

No, obviously not. Can you please improve your reading comprehension.

I awarded townpoints to players who voted for my scumreads before I even entered the game. That confirms they couldn't "copied my answers", so they are getting the correct answers organically and will therefore earn townpoints.

I don't agree that her original system was scummy. What pings me about Kiana was her continuing the system which implies that she was inflexible about her initial reads. I'll admit this could just be a difference in playstyle. I pushed her and then she dropped a very suspicious towntell about not knowing if there was Daytalk or not. When I quoted the OP she didn't comment or readjust her reads on Arch/Rask accordingly so that is where my lingering doubt about her alignment is coming from.

From the interactions with her I've deduced that Arch/Gamma/Rask/Stefan are very unlikely buddies for her should she flip scum.

No she hasn't actually. She explaine an issue people had but not what I'm asking about.

[Gamma Emerald]

No she hasn't actually. She explaine an issue people had but not what I'm asking about.

The issue was that she was copying other people's reads. She said how she felt about the reads when she made them and awarded points for following her main train of thought. Am I misunderstanding?

I'm not trying to argue the system is bad right now. I'm just trying to understand the initial inputs.

[Gamma Emerald]

Or.. We could all settle for Arch

Kokichi who are your top town reads?

Stef and rask

Why?

[Gamma Emerald]

This is some Kiana level posting.

I don't see it. Tell me how it's similar.

[Gamma Emerald]

why are we walling

[Gamma Emerald]

Why do I get VJK vibes from Hiraki...

[Gamma Emerald]

VJK?

Past game where Hiraki was scum. Kinda feel like their tone is very similar to that one

[Gamma Emerald]

Yeah that's what I meant, Idk I feel like his agressiveness comes with a different mood as scum, more to rile up than sort out, and I'm thinking his aim is the first thing here.
VOTE: Hiraki
Could be talked off this one but I feel mildly confident

[Gamma Emerald]

I don't need to sort out - I've already done that. I think I've made that pretty clear. Otherwise I would've changed my vote by now.

Of course you still need to sort out: your reads shouldn't be unchanging.
Also you may have just sealed your fate with this objection

[Gamma Emerald]

I want to lynch kiana beef or arch here, if we lynch someone I'm not scumreading and it's wrong I really don't learn much assuming I'm still around.

Why is it non-informative?

[Gamma Emerald]

If my other pet theory that I have caught scum correctly and the remaining scum is purely chainsaw defending (which means to say, they are hard attacking me to discredit my pushes) is correct, perhaps I was wrong about it being Gamma Emerald. Hiraki is performing the same thing, perhaps more egregiously, but I have only been giving him a free pass thanks to brassherald's townpoints.

Those townpoints are quickly being spent.

What's striking me about Hiraki is I think he also criticized your system but he's also doing the "anyone who disagrees is scum" thing.

[Gamma Emerald]

Actually not that thing but the "I don't need to rework my reads" thing I'd felt you were doing
stil feel like he's being a hypocrite

[Gamma Emerald]

Actually not that thing but the "I don't need to rework my reads" thing I'd felt you were doing
stil feel like he's being a hypocrite

Can you please show everyone where you see this in Hiraki's posts so that we all can verify. Successful verification of scummy behavior from Hiraki means that his townpoints will be taken away and sent to your credit.

When he said "I don't need to sort out, I already did that". I was wrong about him attacking you for that though. He did attack you for the first thing I'd noted though

[Gamma Emerald]

Kiana is there a certain thing driving this push or is it a body-of-work thing where his push is borrowed from others

[Gamma Emerald]

I don't need to sort out - I've already done that. I think I've made that pretty clear. Otherwise I would've changed my vote by now.

Of course you still need to sort out: your reads shouldn't be unchanging.
Also you may have just sealed your fate with this objection

This is what I feel is scummy from Hiraki and what I thought he'd criticized you for

If my other pet theory that I have caught scum correctly and the remaining scum is purely chainsaw defending (which means to say, they are hard attacking me to discredit my pushes) is correct, perhaps I was wrong about it being Gamma Emerald. Hiraki is performing the same thing, perhaps more egregiously, but I have only been giving him a free pass thanks to brassherald's townpoints.

Those townpoints are quickly being spent.

What's striking me about Hiraki is I think he also criticized your system but he's also doing the "anyone who disagrees is scum" thing.

But he did criticize you for the thing I thought he did here in a sense

[Gamma Emerald]

In post 521, Kiana Kaslana wrote:

I don't like how two townreads of mine are currently voting for me. As far as it stands this is effectively bad play.

This is really egotistical and gave me the worst headache to read. I genuinely think there's a decent chance your lynch is a mislynch but this shit isn't helping. Head says scum here, gut says town.

This is what I mean by Hiraki criticizing you

[Gamma Emerald]

But yeah that progression feels pretty stinky

[Gamma Emerald]

Yes, use a post that I made during catch-up and ignore the rest of my postings. That'll work! Wasn't like nothing happened in between!

Does that matter at all?

[Gamma Emerald]

786.. ugh.
"Rask I can see flipping both ways.
Koki is probably scum but I need some flips to be sure.
Kaito is obviously lurking though not sure yet if that's AI. Would sort of depend on what alignment the biggest wagons are.
"
this is the most non-commital, get-out-of-jail-free blanket statement i've seen this game. please forget what i said about townlean BuJaber. this is bad

This ignores the rest of the post. No likey

[Gamma Emerald]

actually gamma can you case scum!hiraki for me in like 2 sentences? or maybe just reference me to where you started SRing him, i'd like to go back.
i finished my quick re-read... next i'm going back to iso'ing wh4t

It's a bit of meta (but not the game I was thinking, I'll get to that here though) along with me finding Hiraki's pushing of Kiana disingenuous.
I think Hiraki's play here might be a bit more reminiscent of :X Mafia rather than VJK btw

[Gamma Emerald]

I am not so happy whith a quickhammer, but I want to see Kianas reaction to it.

WHAT

[Gamma Emerald]

Not to the hammer, but to Koichis post.
Sorry does that make me a bad person?

Okay, I was like "why does her reaction matter if she's lynched?" so this explains that away

[Gamma Emerald]

Yes, use a post that I made during catch-up and ignore the rest of my postings. That'll work! Wasn't like nothing happened in between!

Does that matter at all?

Are you even a little OK with the amount of deceptive editing Kiana has been doing?

I get your stance and I can't really argue it away. I don't really put too much thought (ironically) into my posts but I'm OK with owning up to being wrong and if I say the wrong things, I'm gonna fix them if someone shows me why they're wrong.

Kiana doesn't do this (which isn't scummy) but has just flat out denied, denied, denied (which is). If you want to just drop it right now that you think that's worse then me saying that this person could be town (i.e. doubt based on the level of their play - if that needed to actually be said after I said Kain Tepes after one of her posts) then whatever. Just don't even try to say that this deceptive stuff is any better.

I don't recall any deceptive editing wtf?

[Gamma Emerald]

I'll admit I'm being lazy but people aren't interested in lynching obv scum beef. Since Rask was super scummy with his unvote I'm going to be annoying and vote elsewhere.

VOTE: Gamma

If you said Rask's unvote was scummy,

why the hell would you vote me

?

[Gamma Emerald]

Vig is never scum in normal games afaik, I pretty much joined this setup because it said it was balanced like a normal game, vig fakeclaim is almost unheard of

Even if maf got a vig card as their town card they would have to have their role changed, in that case claiming vig still ???

Wow ok

[Gamma Emerald]

What happened to "Kiana's play makes sense for a vig" Rask?

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: Raskolnikov
This feels like a scum change-of-tune

[Gamma Emerald]

What happened to "Kiana's play makes sense for a vig" Rask?

Not over cedrick

Describe how Cerick's play makes sense for vig more.

[Gamma Emerald]

To note, this ignores if there's a possibility of 2 vigs.

Would that even pass normal review (which this game semi went through)?

Possibly? There was a large with two vigs so it could be taken down to 13p possibly

[Gamma Emerald]

Why did the crab never share? Because he's shellfish.

if we don't lynch kian today I am not going to be happy.

I personally don't think 2 vigs will pass normal review.

Why? Why are you so butthurt about Wh4t that Kiana isn't worth shooting for you?

[Gamma Emerald]

Cedrick crumbs vig multiple times too and maybe most more importantly of all I was actually townreading prior to this.

Yeah you're going to have to point all those out

[Gamma Emerald]

Shoot Rask. He's scum.

VOTE: Kiana

Screw the earlier plan. I think Rask's tip-toeing speaks volumes

The fuck is this teamspec

[Gamma Emerald]

ONLY reason smart scum claims vig is if maf have a mafia doctor or that scum is a BP

You still let them cross
I'm gonna meta you and if you have any past vig games where this sort of thing was brought up I'm tubrolynching you

[Gamma Emerald]

Holy hell ms towns are brain-damaged

[Gamma Emerald]

ONLY reason smart scum claims vig is if maf have a mafia doctor or that scum is a BP

READ: They can't just shoot each other. Doctor be on Cedric.

If one of them still doesn't die guess what? They get lynched the next day. I don't see the problem.

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma: Why? I would agree normally, if there weren't the claims. You don't let scum live.
Have you got a reason to believe Cedric is lying?
If so lynch him tomorrow on scum down.

Koichi: If we have a doctor, a JK for example shouldn't be on Cedric.

Why lynch in vig claims? We have a 50/50 shot of getting it right or wrong and if we get it wrong we set ourselves back a day. Whereas if they crosskill therre's a 100% chance of getting it right, and even if only the vig dies we still know the other is scum because they were either bp or doc'ed, and we also get to use our d1 lynch on someone else.

[Gamma Emerald]

Scum doctor with a shot vig in the game? Lol
The doctor is prob town if anything you should know this
and they won't be.
on the.
VIGS

There is a town doctor. There us ALSO a scum doctor or scum BP

Why are you saying all of this? Do you have any idea of how to setup spec? You just seem to be throwing ideas at a wall and seeing what sticks.

[Gamma Emerald]

What! No a vig is not necesary a garantie that there is a counter from scum.
Actually vig is so swingy, that mostly there would be this roles to not make vigs anti-town.

I agree with this actually. In my large normal I'd originally had a scum bp as counter to the town vig but it got removed, so scum doesn't need a doc/bp to counter vig

[Gamma Emerald]

Kokichi is scum anyway he's not this much of a moron

The problem is getting enough town vote when most of the town is busy shitting their pants over vig counterclaims

[Gamma Emerald]

I'm with Maki here.

Kiana is at L-2.

what is the point of this

[Gamma Emerald]

cause it doesn't matter
LMFAO

[Gamma Emerald]

If you scumread kiana and townread cedrick that wouldn't affect your thinking?

Not really
I'd be pissed at Cedrick for claiming when he could have stayed quiet and just shot in the night but I'd still advocate the same strategy regardless of reads

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma, Maki: Okay you 2 can be at last talked to, not like Haraki, who makes as much sense as Koichi at the moment.
You can be pissed at Cedric, but lets think for a moment. You don't want to think about a situation between 2 slots, which is more likly to be scum.
I see your argument, if we get it wrong, but should we at last think about the question if the danger is real to get it wrong?

Well I don't see anything really putting it away from being 50/50. There's no real smoking guns that tell us that one is more legit than the other. If I were to pick though I'd probably lynch Cedrick because I'm thinking he's experienced enough to know not to counterclaim and just shoot, so either he's really, really bad town or scum. It's still not enough to actually make me want to do it though.

[Gamma Emerald]

If you scumread kiana and townread cedrick that wouldn't affect your thinking?

Not really
I'd be pissed at Cedrick for claiming when he could have stayed quiet and just shot in the night but I'd still advocate the same strategy regardless of reads

My dog used to chase people on a bike a lot. It got so bad, finally I had to take his bike away.


Why though? Why not lynch confirmed scum and then shoot possible partners?

That helps town more imo.

Well here's the issue: we don't have a 1in1 conf scum, we have a 1in2. With 1in1 you can just lynch and be done with it. With 1in2 you have that margin for error. It's like if something is broken in your house and you have one vs. two children. With one child you know who did it, with two you have to figure it out.

[Gamma Emerald]

I'll admit I'm being lazy but people aren't interested in lynching obv scum beef. Since Rask was super scummy with his unvote I'm going to be annoying and vote elsewhere.

VOTE: Gamma

If you said Rask's unvote was scummy,

why the hell would you vote me

?

How are these two things mutually exclusive?

They're not but why not vote for the person you actually call scummy in the post? If you had given reasoning why you voted me over him it would have been fine as well but without that it looks really weird.

[Gamma Emerald]

Well here's the issue: we don't have a 1in1 conf scum, we have a 1in2. With 1in1 you can just lynch and be done with it. With 1in2 you have that margin for error. It's like if something is broken in your house and you have one vs. two children. With one child you know who did it, with two you have to figure it out.

I dreamed I was forced to eat a giant marshmallow. When I woke up, my pillow was gone.

We do have a 1:1 though.

Us cross killing is the worst idea. Anyone suggesting that really needs to gtfo with that idea.

I don’t really see why mafia would claim vig here but it happened. They probably did it to draw me out which I’m fine with. I’ll trade a vig for a mafia even a goon. Since vig is a negative utilities for town. I’m not super invested into this game anyway and certain players if town are annoying me.

Lynch scum. I’ll one of the people who I think could be scum with him.

Or lynch me and lynch him tomorrow. I don’t really care.

from your pov it's a one-in-one chance. For everyone minus Kiana, it's a 1 v 1.

[Gamma Emerald]

Yeah people saying it's 50-50 because its 2 claims is kind of false equivalence/overly simplistic, kiana claiming because she was under direct lynch threat is very different from cedrick counterclaiming under no pressure (and when cedrick crumbed).

I don't care if there's reason to believe some is vig more, I want to see reasons someone isn't. Tell me how someone's reactions+interactions indicated not having the ability to just shoot their scumread.

[Gamma Emerald]

Shoot beef lol.

NO!

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma wouldn't be a bad choice either. It bothers me that he's still null to me after so much content.

That means you're not trying

[Gamma Emerald]

Why did the clown cross the road?
(To get his rubber chicken!)

Gamma and arch were the ones who led me to vote kian. They are not getting shot. Beef saw wht4 for the scummy player he is. He isn’t getting shot.

The 3-4 names I gave earlier are my current pool for the rest of the scum team.

I think I'm seeing wh4t as scum from his massive flail when you stopped wanting to simply lynch Kiana.
VOTE: wh4t

[Gamma Emerald]

You self-hammering nincompoop.

What have you done? Lynch yourself? My, reading capabilities have been proven to be leagues above yours, so if you would refrain from being condescending to newbies, maybe you can improve.

Instead of whining about how your inferiority complex gets triggered by me when I only joined this site much later than you.

No, you are the one who should screw off. I am trying out a new system and you are taking a dump on it with unconvincing arguments. I am not sure if you are anti-newbie or anti-women or are upset that one with both of those traits can be better than you but all I know is you are getting in my way and playing anti-town.

With your own method you get pocketed by scum who are both pushing the same agenda as you and not pushing the same agenda as you. At least I can say my method is better on this front. I mentioned I only awards points for thinking similarly if they had the thought before I could state it, which is okay, but you should go find that evidence for yourself instead of making me doing busywork for you. I am not your little bitch. It is very obvious from my previous posts which you are clearly not reading. I don't know if you are not reading because you are stubborn, lazy, bad at reading, or just plain scum. Unfortunately three of those options are town-possible and only one is scum. Unfortunately again, only way I can maintain my sane respect for you is if you are the latter.

WHAT THE FUCK????????
VOTE: Raskolnikov
I feel like this is intended to bait me onto Kiana. Get FUCKED Rask!

[Gamma Emerald]

No fucking way am I lynching Kiana today. Not after Rask has tried twice to lure me onto her.

[Gamma Emerald]

I think that if both claimed vigs shoot each other and nothing interfears we have 2 dead bodies is understood by everyone.

Posibilitys:
1. We lynch right: one dead scum today, one dead town tonight, and one vig kill
2. We lynch wrong: one dead vig today, one dead town tonight, one dead scum tomorrow
3. We lynch somewhere else: one dead ???, one dead vig(probably), one dead scum
4. We lynch somewhere else: one dead ???, vig kil blocked, day 2

The discusion is between people who belive we are doing 1, whith a very low possibility on 2, is better than the danger of 4 and better than 3. And the people who don't think about the posibilitys of 1+2 and just assume 3.
What this has to with NAR is anyones guess.

Okay Flavor Unbreakable is somethink that I may not be taken in account enough.

1) is very risky because of 2). 3) is the best case scenario imo, and 2) is the worst. Why is 4) not the worst? Because if the kill is blocked we still have a guilty. In addition we know the scum will be killing the vig so we can investigate others tonight. If we lynch the vig guess what, mafia kill can go anywhere.

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma is scum. Let me know when she's at L-1 again and I'll do the honors.

YOU HAMMER YOU CLAIM SCUM YOU FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT

[Gamma Emerald]

That's a little unfair.

I'm not ignoring 1 and 2. I'm saying that the consequences of 2 are more probable than 4 and way worse than 3, which in turn is not that much worse than 1.

Like 1 is great (though vig is likely to shoot town) 3 is pretty good, 4 is quite bad but unlikely, 2 is bad.

This is a bout where I'm at

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma is scum. Let me know when she's at L-1 again and I'll do the honors.

YOU HAMMER YOU CLAIM SCUM YOU FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT

Wow. Why are you so mad?

Because no one actually has a lick of sense other than me + a few others

[Gamma Emerald]

Lol maybe we quicklynch Kokichi.

the omgus is strong with this one

[Gamma Emerald]

If Kiana flips scum Koki spewing there's a possible mafia doc or RB makes no sense as Koki scum.

Last mention of Kokichi. This looks like a townread to me. The only evident reasoning for the read change is Kokichi agreeing that wh4t should be vigged.
What do people think of a Kiana/wh4t team? I'm coming around to that idea. Still won't be lynching Kiana today.

[Gamma Emerald]

What did the baseball glove say to the baseball?
(Catch you later!)

One plan has us gambling on finding scum day 1 and hoping I can kill kian night 1

My plan is guaranteed scum lynch day 1 and hoping I can kill scum n1.

Take the guranteed scum every time.

To those who say they don’t know which one of us legit. That’s bullshit. As scum I’d have no reason to cc a vig claim. I probably shouldn’t have as town but whatever.

He claimed under pressure. Just trying to buy time. Y’all just have to trust me here. I’m legit and as pointed out I even crumbed it.

Are you fucking dense? NO ONE ELSE OTHER THAN YOU CAN SAY KIANA IS CONFIRMED SCUM, IT'S JUST FYPOV. STOP WAVING YOUR POV AROUND AS LAW.

[Gamma Emerald]

Hi. I am back. I just noticed something very disturbing.

vig hits other vig

What is this?! I almost was thinking in my head if Cedrick was scum since I gave him so many townpoints earlier in the game it was confusing me. But then I realized that the game setup is rolled by making 13 town role PMs then randomizing 3 scum. It's entirely possible that two vigs were in the original setup, and it's more likely than not that two vigs are both town instead of one being scum and one being town. There is no guarantee that the other vig is scum, because of the fact that Mathdino was supposed to make the game unbreakable.

Kokichi's nonsense about mafia doctor or whatever is a very bad argument, he just wants to lynch me. If he thinks I'm scum and he thinks already a mafia doctor on my imaginary team then why wouldn't I claim doctor instead? Why claim something risky like vig when if he said that, there would be a counterclaim and I would get lynched anyway (as is the case happening now), it doesn't make sense from scum perspective for me to claim that. So, I am town.

The problem here is that I think wh4t scumslipped by actually revealing that he knows there are 2 town vigs and is now trying to pretend that he doesn't know that. I think it is because Cedrick puts too much pressure on him knowing that Cedrick will shoot him at night. I also don't like how Wh4t likes to put me at L-2 and L-1 all the time.

VOTE: Wh4t

Unified push!
VOTE: wh4t

[Gamma Emerald]

Cedrick-scum has motivation to CC, obviously. Mislynch me for a free PR lynch day 1, and avoid having his teammate shot tonight and also potentially having the risk of his teammate being lynched Day 1. If I get lynched today it's a guaranteed benefit to hypothetical Cedrick-scum, but if town does the right thing and allows us to self-resolve it, who will get lynched, maybe a teammate, all bets are off.

If you're claiming he has no scum motivation you are either blind or scum wanting my mislynch then going to mislynch him tomorrow.

He crumbed vig multiple times, and CC'd without any pressure on him. Are you arguing he'd put those crumbs in advance just in case he'd feel like fakeCCing a vig claim?

Also from MYPOV if you're town you're likely to shoot town anyways in me so scum would and should just let you.

yawn you missed the part where Kiana said she thought Cedrick was town

[Gamma Emerald]

It's like hitting the lottery, do you think any town on this site ever caught 3 scum on day 1?

Yes. Was part of one game where that happened and then scum imploded. Very funny to watch from the deadtopic after I forced scum to kill me. Even if the vig was relucant to shoot because of a special role after night 3 4 of 5 scum were dead. And this was a large.

Even an unbreakable setup has to be balanced, 2 vigs in a mini modnightmare. I stand by this.

And unvoting a scummy player player who claims a provable role, normal. After a CC, when you believe the CC also normal.

Exept Hiraki and wh4t and Kiana no one seems to even consider 2 vigs.

Well it's a possibility I think I mentioned it earlier but since most people don't I'm arguing to the majority

[Gamma Emerald]

In that post she's talking about the scum possibility.

ok fine

[Gamma Emerald]

This is AtE as fuck btw.

AtE isn't scummy
but you are
VOTE: Raskolnikov

[Gamma Emerald]

Except my contention is in designing the setup he wouldn't put 2 vig rolecards to begin with, because it'd be awful if both landed town, but one would have to be changed anyways if it does to scum (being another role) so literally the only reason you put 2 is for so 2 town vig can happen, which goes back to the original argument against that.

Why would scum claim something that isn't their own fakeclaim when they have ones that most likely are comparable to their real role? Like the point Kiana is making is regardless of her alignment her town rolecard is vig.

[Gamma Emerald]

Did you know cedrick was vig before he claimed?

No but he did, and he'd know to shoot you

[Gamma Emerald]

I don't even know what you're saying anymore. So you actually think there's 2 vigs?

Could be. I'm not sure at this point, I've sorta been associative scumreading Kiana but other than that I'm townreading her, and I agree Cedrick has very little motivation to CC vig as scum even if his rolecard as town would have been vig, since that's just sticking his neck out for a mislynch when he can just kill Kiana most likely.

[Gamma Emerald]

No idea(only that you ever let a part for error), I hope Gamma and Hiraki will never mod games.

Too late,

JACKASS!!!!!

[Gamma Emerald]

Actually what the fuck, how does me misreading Kiana equal being a bad mod? Why shouldn't I WOTC you?

[Gamma Emerald]

I'll have you know I have designed decent setups before, plus I think 2 vigs isn't that nuts, in fact I think a Normal (which this game has been stated to be based around rule-wise) there were even and odd night vigs. While this is different it's still about the same idea.

[Gamma Emerald]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=74541
this game fyi

[Gamma Emerald]

Like I see two limited vigs as swingy but not impossible. It has the chance to win n1 for town or cause an early lylo

[Gamma Emerald]

I am just scanning the games.
There is one Large Normal were there were 2 vigs, but I am not sure if even/oddnight and it is a large. (Dunkerdoodles large normal, anyone who really played that, knows about the vigs?) But it is a large.
Now checking archived normals, I am sure to never find 2 full vigs/x-shot vigs in a mini.

There was one vig that Game (Una)?

[Gamma Emerald]

So I scanned the whole mini-normalarchivetread:
Game 1401-1954
Games with 3 nightkills per night 4, games with 2 vigs that weren't even/odd: 0.
The combi SK,Mafia/vig exists (not in this game), 2 vigs don't.

I linked the game doofus

[Gamma Emerald]

We can still offer an alternate.

Hiraki > Arch > Koki

Thoughts everyone? Even pro- kiana lynch people please share

Gamma voting for kiana/cedrick is better than voting rask, can you vote for a realistic alternative?

Why Cedrick? You were among the ones arguing for lynching outside of the vigs, what changed? I hope you don't mind me saying that this is a very scummy change of tune.

[Gamma Emerald]

Yeah gamma is way more toxic than I realized

Yeah I went too far, I just feel like I have to be as violently loud as possible otherwise no one will hear me at this point

[Gamma Emerald]

The two vig thing probably came from me claiming 1-shot miller vig (not miller 1-shot vig) and I ended up getting fucked over because that was too weak. I had that on my mind actually cos when people were talking about scum claiming modifiers to look better I was gonna use that but then I didn't. Don't remember why I chose not to, but I don't think it's important.

[Gamma Emerald]

He can't, I'll tell you that now

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma no thanks!

[Gamma Emerald]

[Gamma Emerald]

Remember that time you sheeped me and it all worked out?

Not sure when I did that?

[Gamma Emerald]

Only time I think I ever did anything resembling sheeping you was that Newbie where I cop-checked Zyf after you said to look into him

[Gamma Emerald]

There is pretty much no doubt in my mind Gamma is scum. I'm willing to lynch there too.

Do it. I might even self-hammer if you get me to L-1.

[Gamma Emerald]

If there are investigate roles it's a good idea to check in the pool of suggestions for the vig.

Why should they listen to your flailing ass

[Gamma Emerald]

You know of my Maki, Gamma, Beef scumspect pool outside Kiana, I'm not surprised that Gamma and Beef are the only ones pushing me lol. Guess it narrows it down for me to Kiana/Gamma/Beef scum team.

Yawn
Keep omgusing

[Gamma Emerald]

I give this game a future implodiness rating of 95%. Unfortunately insurance is denied. Invest in gold and silver.

It's already imploded

[Gamma Emerald]

Wh4t is getting scumread this game for what I call the "sticking your neck out" tell. It's a scumtell that's secretly a towntell, but don't tell anyone.

no he's not
I'm scumreading him for flailing under the possibility of being vigged

[Gamma Emerald]

I want kiana to flip and then I can say I assign her infinity scumpoints for flipping scum.

too bad she'll flip town

[Gamma Emerald]

Okay, we don't have to votes. We could wait now a few days and let this go to deadline. And shout and call each other names and let this game go complitly of the reels
You have to admite when you lost. I leave my vote on Kiana, while sorting that out.

So lets look for Kianas partner.
It would be easy to lynch in Gamma/Hiraki, who were the most frustrating.
But smart scum would at last try to look like the have a point. So we should probably lynch among Maki/BuJaber/Beefster/Kaito.
Now on Kaito I have nothink, and Maki will be harder to lynch.
You can tell me what you think I will check back later.

I did try to make my point though?

[Gamma Emerald]

What do you call a bear with no teeth? A gummy bear!

wht4 doesn't really want kian lynched. that's why he chainsaw defended her earlier.

let's vote there. I'm thinking wh4t is scum regardless of Kiana's alignment but hey whatever works for you
VOTE: wh4t

[Gamma Emerald]

Right Wh4t claimed to be okay to be shoot. He also kind of screwed up his fakeclaimpotential with the hint.
Rask: Any idea what to do now? Because we have to much players who want Kiana alive.
Gamma: Okay, your point just lost me completly. But if you want you can join the potential Kianabuddylynchpool.

Okay people have said, not to claim unnecesary, but I may have somethink to claim that concerns another player.

Well now you kinda have to so I guess go ahead

[Gamma Emerald]

Wh4t isn't scum. Kiana is scum. Wh4t wants kiana lynched and to get shot by cedrick?

Even if you don't think kiana is scum that doesn't make sense.

If anyone was afraid of being shot by town vig they would and should suggest the "vigs" shoot each other.

This is true regardless of who you think is vig or even if you think there are 2 vigs,

which again I don't, no one actually gave a satisfying reason why me and stefan are wrong on this.

Yeah no this is exactly why I think he is scum flailing. He's trying to redirect vig from himself.

[Gamma Emerald]

HOW DOES THAT MAKE ANY SENSE

Please explain

Let's say Kiana does get lynched and flips scum. Then Cedrick feels vindicated and is very likely going to follow his reads, which equals shooting wh4t. wh4t doesn't want that at all so he starts flailing trying to redirect the shot.

[Gamma Emerald]

He softed VT and said it's okay to shoot him and committed to being hammer on kiana if anyone voted. If he gets what he's pushing for cedrick shooting him is literally the most likely outcome??

Yeah guess what, he aslo tried to get Cedrick to shoot literally anyone else he wasn't already townreading

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma: Lets play a game.
If the lynchpool is Maki, BuJaber, Beef, Kaito, Hiraki anyone you would lynch from them?

Pretty much any of those except Maki. That's not to say I fully scumread them, but I don't townread them enough to fight a wagon on them.

[Gamma Emerald]

Finally this day is over and we can get over this horrid argument I guess. If Kiana flips town I'm gonna be hunting that wagon solely tomorrow, if she flips scum wh4t 100% need to die

[Gamma Emerald]

Wait that wasn't hammer? gfdi
Still not hammering, I'm not helping you on this lynch

[Gamma Emerald]

Yeah it's a fucking shitshow, but I don't feel like lynching someone I still have massive reservations about

[Gamma Emerald]

If this is the first mini normal ever with 2 town n1 vig shots, I'll apologize and eat my words but in any other situation I think I'm right, I think even lynching wrong vig would the right move because you at least get confirmed guilty tomorrow. I don't think people understand the worst case scenario here where you learn nothing is horrible here IMO, or are pushing it maliciously.

Yeah no, the worst case scenario is we end up with two town vigs lynched and scum get to walk away laughin their asses of at how town had a pair of mislynches waved in their face and they weren't collectively smart enough to realize the big problem
We should let them resolve themselves at night. It basically no matter what forces the scum to do something about it, plus we don't end up wasting lynches imo.

[Gamma Emerald]

Still think regardless of anyone of their alignments lynching someone other than them is better.

[Gamma Emerald]

I'm not supporting a Beef lynch

[Gamma Emerald]

What type of music are balloons scared of?
(Pop music!)

Now I can’t decide who I want to shoot more. Wht4 or gamma.

If you shoot me you're terrible
Look at how Wh4t flailed, do you really think that's a town reaction to the possibility of being vigged?

[Gamma Emerald]

I don't think beef is scum based on interactions with my other suspects (Rask and wh4t)

[Gamma Emerald]

I don't think beef is scum based on interactions with my other suspects (Rask and wh4t)

I refuse to believe you're this bad at mafia. Therefore you're scum.

Yawn
Beef had some pretty firey interactions with Rask and his interactions with you don't feel SvS either, I can quote the posts of his if needed