Mini 2018 - American Presidents Mafia (Game Over)

[skitter30]

♪ So the American experiment begins with my friends all scattered to the winds ♪

VOTE: shoshin

@brass I'm v/la on fridays and saturdays :)

Noted, I'll try to remember to add that to my notes sections of vote counts when relevant. Also, please bold anything addressed to me, much easier for me to spot.

[skitter30]

meh, the singular/plural thing messes up the cadence

p-edit: he isn't actually proposing a policy lynch; he's meming in RVS

also not sure why your'e worried about vote-splitting in like post 12 or whatever it was

[skitter30]

Hey Skitter, why are you defending Math? Do you think he's town for that opening?

i'm not defending math; I'm pointing out that this isn't a serious proposal from him and that it shouldn't be read as such

the opening isn't remotely AI imo

why are you concerned about vote-splitting in post 13?

[skitter30]

like do you really think that was a serious lynch proposal?

have you ever played with him?

p-edit: I'm a she

[skitter30]

Ok, eli5 why his proposal was pro-scum.

I don't think my comment defended math. You seemed to have found his proposal vote-worthy, and I was pointing out it was a meme in case you misread that.

I'm not being hostility wrt your desire of building a wagon, but I don't really get why you're worried about vote-splitting happening on literally the first page of the game. Like it basically sounds to me like you were using the buzzword of 'preventing vote-splitting' to elaborate on why you voted there since you aren't really explaining why you think it was a bad thing in that context.

p-edit: i have not read any of the p-edits :)

[skitter30]

wait did she play with you or not?

[skitter30]

Zzz

This is great and all but let's all build a wagon on actual scum

VOTE: invisible

why is invisibility scum?

I'm not sure what to make of Math's attempt to discredit my play when he's never even interacted with me before. Anyone play with him before and know what he's like as town/scum?

I don't know why you're framing things as 'hostile', 'attempt to discredit', or 'defending'; I don't really see any of these things happening.

If he was a backup replacement for that game I assume he was following it and would thus have some sort opinion on how you play. he also cold-metas people pretty frequently and I don't think he's done anything unusual for him besides posting in raps; I don't think he's done anything AI this game.

So like is this a post restriction on the Dino or is he just trollling us

do you have any thoughts on the game beyond math rapping?

Also it isn't a pr; his first post wasn't rapping.

So like is this a post restriction on the Dino or is he just trollling us

So like is this a sorting post, what point is there in polling us

+1

Invis is probably town, too.

Orly?

Cuz what I see is active lurking already happening.

ok, what makes invis different, than, say, nauci?

I don't know if it's fair to classify him as active lurking hours into the game when he has more game-related content than many players.

[skitter30]

ok, what makes invis different, than, say, nauci?

I don't know if it's fair to classify him as active lurking hours into the game when he has more game-related content than many players.

You think he has game related content?

They are different because one has a far more serious tone than the other. One has a more tryhard feel than the other and one is clearly trying to seem more useful than the other.

The definition of active lurking is basically posting empty posts trying to look like you're making content when you aren't

Yes, I know what active lurking is. I don't know if the way he's been posting is inherently AI for him.

I don't think either of them has been 'serious' or 'tryhard' or 'trying to seem useful'.

Invisibility was talking about the me/shoshin thing and was talking about the previous game he had played with shoshin, while all of nauci's posts at this time were RVS and math's rapping, so I think nauci at this point fits the category of 'active lurkinig' better than invisibility did (although I object to that term being applied to anyone at that point of the game in general)

Actual I went back to reread all their posts up to this point and I'm just going to note that invisibility was incidentally voting you at the time you voted him.

--

Maybe you had flashbacks..? Did you or didn’t you?

No, Skitter’s response to Shoshin was honestly fine

I don’t like Skitter’s *feel*, though. I’ll explain more later after my read stays the same or changes

You should sheep me though

I don't know what *feel* means

--

I'm not quite ready to say why you should vote Stun but you should. Irrelephant has the idea.

why stun?

--

what are your thoughts on me, shoshin? you never provided them.

catching up as is with the other questions, but do address your feeling on me before asking and even inciting others to do so. otherwise, it just looks like you are trying to take advantage of a wagon forming on a me, which i feel only a scumplayer would have incentive to do. looks like you are doing the utmost in an attempt to “look town” right now

What do you mean by 'trying to take advantage of a wagon forming on me'? She started the wagon so it makes sense to me that she'd try to get other people to try to join it; I don't think that's scum-motivated. I don't know how you can 'try to take advantage of a wagon forming' when you started the wagon and are trying to make it a thing. I don't think that's trying to 'look town' either.

--

Feeling currently like Shoshin/Stungun/math has at most one mafiosa. Keyser/stungun/skitter could have as many as THREE but probably not more than like 1.5.

how did you determine these groups?

--

I don’t like the transition here at all; shoshin goes from obsessing over skitter’s townread of mathdino to later asking what there isn’t to like about mathdino’s play; it seems like a very strange transition to make in a matter of hours with no explicit townread or townle on mathdino for the slot, so this makes its way onto my scumdar. These questions seem like their fishing for scummy responses to take advantage of

I'm not townreading math.

I think that asking what someone else doesn't like about math doesn't imply that she herself doesn't like math.

--

he was defending him, so i take it that it was something of a townread or sth. i didn’t feel like looking back, so i went off my memory

a) she

b) I was pointing out that she was msireading math's RVS post. It didn't imply a townread.

--

gemini feels like really bland boring scum

I read town!her like that in Newbie 1872 last week, and was very very very wrong, so idk if posting like that is a scumtell for her.

note to self: suspicious of Math if he doesn't comment on this.

--

Hmm, I like that Stun came around on me. Not sure he'd do that as scum.

I mean, if he's scum and you're town he could be trying to appease you and get you off his case by trying to townread you.

ok this is getting long, so starting a new post here

[skitter30]

Math I dislike PRs because

they make it easier to obfuscate

and I was hoping that wouldn't be the case but I very much dislike that you even outright said it'll get in the way. Rhyme all you want but don't use it as some shield to dodge requests for real content.

Yes, I was thinking this too

--

Yep, Gamma has to Hulk out (with only one game-solving related post so far).

LOL pls
I'm honestly kinda wanting to kick back this game ngl, maybe I'll get solvy later but for now I just wanna smell the roses. It's my first full game back ya know.
Keyser does kinda strike me as town though, based on what he's taking note of

I don't like the first half of this post, but I agree with the keyser bit

--

VOTE: Northsidegal. she blew right past me and the rest of town as scum in lynchpin mafia by largely lurking/staying in the background. i don’t reckon i want to see a repeat of that. i’d like to see her give some early gamereads. her content hasn’t really had much substance so far :cool:

questions coming for all :P

I don't really know if people can be classified as 'lurkers' when the game hasn't even been a thing for a full day yet.

--

I’m kinda feeling worse on stun/Nauci/Mom/invis for their “lynch the lurker” votes like 48 hours into a game on the weekend

+1

--

i feel like her questions might have an intent of stirring the pot—so that would be my official reasoning.

I really didn't get that vibe from gemini at all; her questions felt super safe to me. I just don't know if that's AI though

--

I'm checking with the replacement queue. I will likely be very late with my normal 8 PM EST vote count by the way, going to see Incredibles 2 tonight

I saw it last week, it was a very good movie :)

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@skitter: what’s your reason to believe shoshin is scum playing super aggressively?

I don't believe I gave a scumread on her or said she was scum playing super aggressively? I was trying to understand if she was being serious wrt her math push on like the first page because it was based on like a serious misunderstanding of math's RVS post and like ... didn't make sense to me to find math scummy for it. I will note that she didn't actually explain why she thought the RVS post was 'pro-scum' despite me asking a few times.

Like her push on math there just doesn't make sense to me because it means she majorly misread his post but she claims that she understood it wasn't serious so I don't get why she had a problem with it.

--

Sidenote, lynching gemslot would be a fine vote
I cry tho, that replace out is quite a spy note
No joke I need more townreads than this mild boat
So far its stun, Sho, and I like what Keyse wrote

ok, elaborate on gemini please

--

My problem is that the "obvtown as town" bloc is disappointing
skittz, Nauci, NSG and Ran are all avoiding
That stream of consciousness style they like exploiting
To get townreads elsewhere. Reading 'em here's a bit annoying

wait, are you complaining that I haven't posted much yet? You know that I'm v/la on weekends .... and like, I announced yesterday and brass is putting it in the votecounts?

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VOTE: skitter30
(Sorry babe, I’m confirm-bias’ng)

If Shoshin is town, this works well as skitter30 being the scum who couldn’t resist the bite.

Time to return to the thread and town clear yourself.
Time to resolve those page 1 associations.

Idk what 'couldn't resist the bite' means. She was misreading math's post and I pointed that out because what she was saying didn't make sense to me if she actually understood math's RVS post.

--

quack quack

duckling :) :) :)

why koser soze?

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I was reading the game

because the rapping is :fire: :fire: :fire:

and soft mind melded with Gemini a couple of times so the slot was too good to pass up

where did you mindmeld with her?

--

I have the faintest whisper of a townlean on skitter atm

why?

--

someone else can probably tell you it ruins the fun if I self out

ooh! pick me! I have a guess :)

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ok 273 is the first post I liked from shoshin

--

apologies for the wrong pronoun, skitter. i think it’s natural to assume someone’s a ‘he’ until, you know, they’re not. :P

but i will say i’m not feeling that you, skitter, are townreadable right now either. not seeing a clear pro-town focus to your above analysis, but i’ll give you time to settle in and analyze more to see if i can extrapolate that sort of focus from your analyses.

and fwiw, you can absolutely try to take advantage of a wagon forming on someone by digging them a hole they may have trouble getting out of, which can make them mislynchbait. i have already addressed that i’ve been mislynched in a recent game on d1, so that without a doubt does explain why i feel scum might try to take advantage of forming a wagon on me d1. plus, when i was mislynched, 2 of the 5 votes were scum, so naturally when i’m a potential mislynch i’m going to doubt those on my wagon

OK? I'm not asking you to townread me right now?

Idk, that's usually ohw I play, especially when I come back to the thread and have like ten pages to catch up.

My point is that she started the wagon so it's a weird thing for you to say that she was taking advantage of it; like that's not how I would use that term; it implies to me that there was a pre-existing wagon that she thought was useful so she's trying to use it to further her own agenda. Like the connotation to me was that she was being oppurtunistic. but she like started teh wagon so I don't really view it as she's oppurtunistically pushing a wagon that already existed. Maybe I read too much into your post and misread it a bit, idk.

The most townie thing I'm seeing from you is that you keep referencing your mindset from this other towngame and are like drawing parralels from your play there to your play here.

[skitter30]

yay i'm in real time again

[skitter30]

Idk, you tend to wait for real-time interaction and it felt kinda premature from you.

[skitter30]

Eh, fair enough

[skitter30]

I'm coming around to town on stungun

Math is sketchy.

Keyset is a slight townlean, but not as strongly as a lot of people are making him out to be.

I'm re-evaliating shoshin; still dont like her RVS but I like her more recent posts (esp 273 iirc)

I dont really like momrangel or gamma.

I dont think I have strong opinions on anyone else atm. Or at least, if I do, it's not coming to mind.

[skitter30]

You?

[skitter30]

I'm not sure if scum!you jumps into the thread confidently voting someone that is being largely townread.

[skitter30]

I dont have an opinion on Bernie or irrelephant. I also like gamma slightly more mom.

P-edit: I dont like mom calling out invisibility for active lurking like two hours after the game started when they haven't done anything themselves.

I have no thoughts on invisibility

[skitter30]

The most townie thing I'm seeing from you is that you keep referencing your mindset from this other towngame and are like drawing parralels from your play there to your play here.

This is what I'm liking about stungun

[skitter30]

duckling, you're kinda gut-pinging me as scum btw

[skitter30]

My answer:
Thanks for your reply. I am sorry but I have this uneasy feeling that you were attacking things (or being overly concerned) for surface level entanglements/contradictions. I have seen scum spend their time posting about such contradictions instead of having a more measured approach of meditating about the motivation of the player/could a town player have said this?/asking yourself ‘is this a rational stance to have if I were in their shoes?’

Shoshin’s entry and direction gave you that opportunity to ‘bite’.

Your only out here is if you may have been shortsighted. That is why I wore glasses when I approached the crash scene, that was page one

a) 'attacking things (or being overly concerned) for surface level entanglements/contradictions' - it was page1 RVS and discussing it pretty much got the game out of RVS? Imo that's basically how we leave RVS, by finding something to talk about. I guess I don't particularly object to the 'biting' notion you have, but I disagree that it was scum-motivated.

b) 'instead of having a more measured approach / asking yourself 'is this a rational stance to have if I were in their shoes''. That's the point; I don't think this was a rational sense if she understood that post wasn't serious, as she claims she does. I pointed out that she seemed to be applying a level of unreasonable scrutiny to what was obviously a joke RVS post to me, so I was pointing out that it wasn't a serious post in case she read it seriously when it wasn't meant to be read that way. She says she understood that it wasn't serious but that it was 'pro-scum' for reasons she didn't elaborate upon when I asked her to.

I don't understand how that was a rational stance to have to that post if she understood it wasn't serious; and I pointed out it wasn't serious in case she didn't understand that.

--

The most townie thing I'm seeing from you is that you keep referencing your mindset from this other towngame and are like drawing parralels from your play there to your play here.

This is what I'm liking about stungun

I actually have to question this if it’s how you say it is: couldn’t he just be scum scripting his play to fit that?
Still townread stungun but your logic kinda seems weak

I'm aware; it's not like I called him a super strong townread or anything. It's possible that it could be scripting but he keeps on referencing his thought process in his towngame and how it relates to this game and it's very *thorough* and *consistent* and that's basically how I play (by comparing a given scenario to a similar past scenario and trying to figure out if things from the past are applicable/useful here) so it's a thought process that makes sense to me.

[skitter30]

I'm kinda tending towards there actually tbh.

I really didn't like how he approached the gemini slot given newbie 1872.

I'm kinda waiting for him to talk about it and I'm willing to give him some time for a benefit-of-doubt thing.

I agree that the gimmick may be what's weird about him right now, but continuing that when people have said it's making him hard to read is :/

He was scum in a hydra in open 710 but he repped out pretty early after his partner repped out

[skitter30]

Can I guess who you are or would you prefer me not to?

[skitter30]

Actually the more I think about it the less certain I am that you're the person I'm thinking of, so nm

[skitter30]

A50?

[skitter30]

fair enough

[skitter30]

Right, from my post-games talks with you regarding 1872 I don't get why you *don't* like her. You basically told me she can be read by post-count, and she wasn't in the game long enough for that to be a thing imo.

Like I *very* badly misread for 'being complacent and asking safe questions* and thought she was scum for it and that's why I lynched her, and you told me that wasn't AI and that I should read her by post count. I don't know what you're seeing here that's different.

also is that last post in sonnet form? if yes, very impressed.

p-edit: yeah I agree with that though

[skitter30]

I'm very much reminded of alisae in MKUltra (open 710) who basically repped in on a role-playing gimmick that was super annoying to read and kept it up despite people being annoyed, and was basically using it as a shield to avoid putting out readable content.

they even lynched a newbie for telling them it made them hard to read

[skitter30]

they were scum btw if that wasn't clear; incidentally, they replaced math in that game

[skitter30]

You expect me to lead when I still gotta read
I don't see a need, laying low is my creed

math when you read I do want you to elaborate on your gemini thoughts

[skitter30]

whoops, nm lol, sorry

[skitter30]

so you're basically saying you think that the rep-out was more AI than posting similarly to 1872?

[skitter30]

Huh, I didn't even know that was a thing tbh. I think it's entirely possible she didn't realize that was a thing either; idk if that's AI

[skitter30]

I'm still a little surprised you didn't comment when people were saying she was scummy for asking safe questions given 1872.

Either way when you're finished reading I'd like to hear your thoughts on duckling.

[skitter30]

bernie you can be town for now i think

[skitter30]

tbf it's the weekend, and invis is v/la till monday, and apparently, activity isn't the correct way to read nsg though I'm just going to let math work that out and sheep him on her irregardless of his alignment.

idk if nsg pops in, votes her partner, and then disappears as scum

[skitter30]

that's kind of a joke the odds there are realistically very low and not really to the point of being worth considering

you okay with maths response? for the most part he's already committed to giving more in a short timeframe and I can see some viability but I don't really like his goto being so wifomy/selfmetay and like defending with the gimmick

Which bit is the first paragraph responding too?

I'm not really feeling town!math right now. Hes always self-meta-y, even as town, I don't think that's inherently AI. I feel like it's been harder to pull answers out of him than usual, even given the gimmick.

I think the gimmick by itself is funny but I'm concerned that it's making it hard to read him and I'm more concerned that he isnt really dropping it when that's been pointed out.

[skitter30]

math isn't feeling like town!him yet, gimmick nonewithstanding, and I'm concerned that he's using it to make him harder to read. The gimmick itself isn't inherently AI but it's a bit scummy to me in this specific context, and I think it's scummy to keep it up when people are saying that it makes him harder to read. It's not just generic opposition that I personally don't like the gimmick or something; keeping it up there isn't AI imo. It's specifically that I think it's making him hard to read.

Also, I mean, i just did this last night and I think my thoughts are pretty clear, but ok.

this isn't in any particular order:
townlean: bernie, stungun, probably keyser
scumlean: math, duckling, mom, gamma

idk where to put you right now.

i don't have AI thoughts on most of the other players.

[skitter30]

I mean, I don't always scumread you, and sometimes I can townread you pretty easily when you, like, gamesolve (newbie 1859 + post-hammer 1872) but you aren't behaving that way yet so if you're town I'm not really seeing it.

I'm aware that you can be readable if you want to and that's why i'm not voting you right now because I think I can give you space to do your gimmick thing for a bit and if you're town you'll make it pretty clear eventually; I don't want to mislynch you day1 again, oops.

[skitter30]

Math's post where he agreed with my townread on Key was very townie in light of our interactions up to that point, particularly the "hate to admit" language. That emotion, "fuck, I can't believe I agree with this guy whose play I've just spent a few posts attacking," is pretty hard to fake and suggests that Math's read was genuine, not the result of an informed perspective. And his townread on Stun followed pretty naturally from the townread on Key. There's other things but those two are more than enough to townread Math.

I don't think that post about keyser exhibited strong emotion or is like hard for scum!him to fake even remotely.

[skitter30]

Keyser if you put your sus on me aside for the moment who do you think is scum?

Can I answer this question when all the playerlist have posted.

Because right now, “think is scum” may not be the right label. ‘Not town reading’ is more fitting.

ok, who are you waiting for? Because I think everyone posted?

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@BS: rask?

so you're basically saying tw might be like, trying not to rock the boat with his read on you? And just going with what you'd expect from him?

--

One example of one of his try hard posts.

I don't really classify this as 'try-hard' tbh. It reads to me more like he was trying ot get clarification

keyser, what's your opinion on invisibility? Do you find mom's read convincing?

--

@math: do we be concerned about nsg not really posting yet?

--

But oh I thought tw was still voting him. It’s boring being the only vote for him rn so I’ll go back to VOTE: skitter because I feel confident town can pressure nsg and any other lurkers without me and I want more from skit

not really sure what you want from me tbh? i feel like I have a lot of readable content

[skitter30]

the thing with nsg is that idk if voting her will actually like, prompt her to do anything at this stage; i'm kinda going to defer to math to determine if/when the lurking is AI. i'm going to be very upfront and say that I'm just going to sheep math on her when he figures out his read on her because i basically always read her wrong and he has a very good track record of reading her.

eh, i'll do this for now; my shoshin vote is kinda stale

VOTE: momrangel

[skitter30]

hot take: scum is among bernie, nsg, nauci, momrangal, and the worst

Btw I don't think duckling and mom are scum together

[skitter30]

Are people scumreading Bernie here?

duckling, you feel a lot more ... reserved than you usually do. Or like, out of it, or, like, less *present*. Idk how to say that better.

do you or do you not know who BS is?

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I wanted to sit back and watch Shoshin and Momrangel to play out the inner conflict in my head I have over Invisibility.

Are you usually this cage-y?

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@Shoshin - now’s the time to share that irrefutable meta evidence for town-invisibility.

momrangel actually came back with a bang.

Still not town reading, but Shoshin sounds convinced they are town via meta. Maybe their playstyle is getting in the way of me seeing what scum-hunting/sorting they are actively engaged in

So the reason why I asked about your invisibility read is because 414 almost sounds like ... you're narrating a dispute between shoshin and momrangal and that you're like ... waiting for them to decide what their reads are and I'm wondering if you, like, are trying to form your own read or if you're just going to be listening to one of {shoshin/mom}, and if you're planning on doing the latter, how you're going to decide which one is correct.

Also I wouldn't really describe mom's recent posting about invisibility as a 'bang'.

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Btw I don't think duckling and mom are scum together

Why is that?

Can't remember that many (if any) associations between the two players..?

don't think 315 is a vote on a partner.

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I had Mom as town for similar reasons to Irrelephant, as well as her answer to my question in 163. Her play was also consistent with her town meta so nothing to worry about.

Do you have a good track-record cold-meta'ing people you've never played with?

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If it's his meta it should be NAI and you shouldn't be town reading him off that.

I think it's meta and is wholly NAI and is neither vote-worthy nor town-read-worthy

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1. *feel* was referring to your word choices. You've used "I don't think/I don't feel" "I'm not sure/I'm not seeing" "This doesn't/isn't" like SO much that I'm having trouble knowing what you DO think/feel/see and that comes across as somewhat intentional, given how much you've done it.

2. something something re-reading early posts something something shoshin/math and shoshin/stun really didn't look like early s/s and stun and dino both seemed independently towny

and then I was sorta light-scumreading all three of the second list and there was nothing to indicate they had different alignments

but also mostly I said it for the SPICE

1. That's a writing style thing. People have commented on that before. I think I write pretty clearly, but apparently it's confusing for some people. The 'feel' thing is how I describe gut, or when I don't know how to precisely articulate what I'm seeing. like if I don't like a post but I haven't figured out why yet, I'll say something like 'this post feels weird to me. I think it's because ...' and do my best to finish that sentence because it helps me articulate the gutpings into something describable and actionable.

The 'I don't think'/ 'I'm not sure'/'This doesn't' is how I express disagreement. IE if someone says something like 'I like post 372 because of X and I townread player Y because of it', I'll say something like 'I don't think 372 is AI because .... ' whatever the reason is.

2. hmm, interesting way to read associatives.

--

This is true and I'd been skimming. Still not townreading you because I do still have bad feels about your posts, but,

Nauci is actually reminding me completely of our scum game together: "casual" as a way of seeming town without doing much work
VOTE: Nauci

I mean, I think it's weird to vote someone for 'wanting more from them' when you agree they've posted a reasonable amount of readable content and you're skimming the thread.

Also not sure how I feel about you backing off that quickly when I asked you about it.

Post's getting long, will continue in a new post shortly.

[skitter30]

hey it's mom. Hi Mom!!!!

Who on your wagon do you think is scum? because prolly one of 'em, regardless of your alignment

I'm tending towards thinking it might be the duck.

Don't have enough from NSG to read her and I think stun is more likely than not town.

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And no I'm not about to metadive. I don't want to keep hearing "this is how he plays so we should just clear him"

I didn't say you should "clear" Invis because of meta, I said you shouldn't scumread him for things that aren't scummy for him to do. How would you feel if someone called you scummy because of things that you do in every game as town? You'd think that person was scumreading you for things that aren't scummy, right? Apply that same logic to Invis.

which game did you play with invis again? have you metadived him?


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keyser, is english your first language? Your posts feel very ... cage-y or put-upon or artificial maybe? Idk what the right word is exactly but they feel kinda off in a general sense. Or like affected is maybe a good word?

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Spoiler: 489

Ok, I can see why skitter is pulling up Shoshin on his 'remarkable' entrance (#20), hell, even I was dumbfounded by Shoshin's first few posts. But i've seen scum attack townies for being overly suspicious for NAI behaviour... so this is what I was initially picking up from skitter (#26). I feel like a townie would have just let it go but skitter presses on (#28), (#42). If you're not finding their behaviour scum alignment indicative, why are you getting so worked up about it? I feel scum find it easier to talk about misunderstandings (which can be completely NAI matters).

Not sure why you think a townie would have let it go there; I actually still want shoshin to explain why she thought math's post was pro-scum

I was trying to get her to explain her thought process, because it didn't make sense to me (and still doesn't, and she ignored me way back when when I tried to get her to explain). I'm not getting worked up about it, and I'm not convinced that it was NAI.

What I got from these interactions was a 'Shoshin-and-skitter' aren't scum partners. I also concluded skitter may have been

the scum

to jump on Shoshin's unconventional entrance.

you're also assuming that there *was* scum who jumped on shoshin, which imo is not an inhernetly valid assumption. I kinda feel like you're looking someone to fit your preconcieved notions of where scum ought to be.

Questions/challenges Momrangal's reads (#70). Engages Mom into a discussion about "lurking". Is skitter here to just correct players?

No, I was pointing out that voting someone for 'active lurking' two hours into the game starts is silly and a really stupid reason to vote someone; I don't think you can classify someone as active lurking at that time.

Agrees with Nauci's point about Mathdino's playstyle making "it easier to obfuscate" - but has skitter acted on this suspicion directly with Mathdino yet?

no, because I was catching up and she brought it up at around the same time I realized that.

"I don't really know if people can be classified as 'lurkers' when the game hasn't even been a thing for a full day yet." Again, Skitter here slightly nitpicking at Stun's observation instead of trying to understand the sentiment.

Because I thought he was going after lurkers pre-maturely

Skitter puts mom in the same breath as gamma (#293). Gamma's effort has frustrated me so far, but wouldn't put in the same category as the frustration/suspicion with mom. That's just my take though.

OK? Are you like trying to say that I"m scummy for having different reads than you? I don't really understand the problem with having gamma in the same tier as mom. I don't even know which one you like more tbh.

Skitter talking about her suspicion of Mathdino... but still no direct communication with Mathdino to resolve her suspicions...? (#325). OK... finally engages with Mathdino (or Mathdino confronts Skitter).

Because math wasn't around in that 12-hour span or whatever it was since I first mentioned it and like, I'd talk about it with him whenever he shows up? I'm not really sure what you're expecting from me here?

Shares final scumleans... "scumlean: math, duckling, mom, gamma". I don't know why they share the same level. Math sounds more like a null/null scum read, as skitter believes Mathdino will prove himself town in the long run, so best to keep Mathdino alive for now...

You know, for someone who's been remarkably cage-y about your own reads you're very critical about how I share mine.

They don't share the same level; if you want a more tiered readslist it looks something like this for right now; I don't know if I can make one retroactively for the time of that post like this. At that time, math was roughly on the same level as duckling, and mom and gamma are roughly on the same level. Math can be sketchy, but not a read that I want to act upon right now for just the reason you described. That doesn't make him not a scumread though.

For right now:
{}
{stun}
{shoshin, bernie}
{nsg, irrelephant, invsibility, nauci} -- null
{mom, gamma}
{math}
{duckling}
{}

I don't know where to put you right now.

Most of this seems to be more of a 'you don't like how I express myself' thing than an actual scumreading thing tbh.

--

Alright, cool. So Nauci, Skitter, and the worst as scum? I think that makes the most sense at this point.

nsg’s a legit possibility too. everybody has at least 17 posts except her. she has 4 (-13 compared to everyone else)

I don't think she's been around in a general sense this weekend, and not just this game; I really don't think that's AI.

--

Nah, if scum isn't Nauci/Skitter/the worst, it's probably between Gamma/NSG.

this is just like a list of most of the people that are generally percieved to be sketchy

--

i have no energy to play mafia recently. i realize now that it was irresponsible of me to sign up for this.

apologies to everyone else and to brassherald. i hate doing this.

@mod, please replace me

hopefully i feel better soon.

i hope you feel better soon

--

I mean, right, I understand that contextually you were disagreeing with people. My problem was with how you seemed to spend most of your time disagreeing with people, often in a non-committal "I dunno..." kind of way that shuts things down, rather than making assertions/questions that generate discussion and help to eliminate posscumbilities.

I mean, that's just how I write, and I'm not being non-committal. If I say 'I don't think that ...' it means 'I disagree with you'. I just don't write that way.

[skitter30]

VOTE: the worst

i think i want to do this for now.

--

Again, there is nothing in the rule book against using two other players to resolve your inner conflict.
"Correct"? Nothing is correct right now. They just have to convince me, and I need to convince myself. Weird question.

I didn't say there's a rule against it. It basically makes me feel like you're using the two of them as a proxy to figure it out.

your posts don't feel very real to me. idk how to explain that better right now.

[skitter30]

Idk why moving duckling is a problem for you?

I didn't give nsg a read. 'null' is not a read. I don't know where to put you; you're unsorted, by which I mean there's things I like (your early game observations), and things I don't like (tonally you feel really really really off). unsorted != null.

[skitter30]

like I can't come to a conclusion either way right now because there's AI things pointing in both directions. null means I don't think the player posted AI things and/or didn't post at all.

[skitter30]

Nah, if scum isn't Nauci/Skitter/the worst, it's probably between Gamma/NSG.

this is

just

like a list of most of the people that are generally percieved to be sketchy

What do you mean by "just"? I think most of my townreads agree with me, but I don't see anything wrong with that. Do you?

i don't know what your townreads have to do with this. it's a list of consensus-scummy players. it's very safe.

[skitter30]

I didn't say all of them were on that list?

[skitter30]

Nah, if scum isn't Nauci/Skitter/the worst, it's probably between Gamma/NSG.

this is

just

like a list of most of the people that are generally percieved to be sketchy

What do you mean by "just"? I think most of my townreads agree with me, but I don't see anything wrong with that. Do you?

i don't know what your townreads have to do with this. it's a list of consensus-scummy players. it's very safe.

You think my reads are "safe"? That's just wrong. I've clearly stuck my neck out in defending certain players who aren't perceived as town (e.g. Mom/

Invis

), and I've given some strong townreads on players who aren't perceived as strong town (e.g. Math/Irrelephant), so why interpret my reads as "safe" instead of "maybe there's something to this because all the likely townies are coming to a consensus"?

Fixing a mistake.

I think that the list of people you currently scumread is comprised of a list of people that are generally scumread across the board, and yes, I think that's safe.

I think that the consensus is wrong on at least two people (me, and I don't think NSG lurking is remotely AI in this instance), and I think that you have pre-concieved notions and that you're letting them dictate your suspicions, especially when you're being given feedback that magnifies those beliefs.

you're probably town but i think that there are several flaws in how you approach this game tbh

[skitter30]

I like to lynch scum on D1 and anything less feels like a failure to me.

Bernie's tough to read. Lots of nothingness but there's a hint of town in the way he helped me pressure Stun but then switched onto Invis because he couldn't maintain the farce. Even if Bernie's really strong as scum, I'm not sure he'd express that sentiment while switching his vote onto obvious lynchbait. So probably not lynching Bernie today.

I'm varying degrees of town on Math, Invis, Key, Mom, and Irrelephant. Stun's a weaker read but for the moment happy to put aside. So I'm thinking we need to sort out Gamma, NSG, Skitter, Nauci, and the worst.

Honestly I don't remember reading this post.

[skitter30]

It basically makes me feel like you're using the two of them as a proxy to figure it out.

Correct.

Is that scummy though?

I'm not sure it is. It does make that post feel weird though.

Skitter's scumread on Math is pretty fucking bad, and given her recent concern about "safe" reads, I'm thinking it's an attempt to appear "non-safe." I find it hard to believe that town Skitter lists Math as scummier than her null reads.

yes, me, as scum, thinks its a *really* good idea to scumread town!math and deliberately start a fight with him, kudos for figuring that out.

like, if i'm scum i do my *very* best to avoid math and like *not* catch his attention because he can read me properly and i hate being scumread and like ... calling attention to myself as scum.

[skitter30]

I didn't say NSG was scummy. I said she's scum if my scumreads flip town, because that still leaves her as null when compared my townreads, making NSG scum by poe. What's the flaw in that approach? What "pre-conceived notions" are clouding my judgment?

I don't see the harm in speculating about the scumteam on D1. As I said before, I intend to lynch scum on D1 and part of doing that includes analyzing potential teams as corroborative evidence.

pre-flips in a word. you're looking for teams and looking for evidence that backs up those teams.

I had Mom as town for similar reasons to Irrelephant, as well as her answer to my question in 163. Her play was also consistent with her town meta so nothing to worry about.

here too: you start off assuming he's town, check his meta, don't see anything to contradict that assumption, so you keep him as town.

are you actually successful at cold-meta-reading people? (do you often ignore questions? It's very hard getting you to answer things directed straight at you)

You basically have pre-concieved notions and you're finding evidence that fits instead of the other way around.

[skitter30]

Skitter's scumread on Math is pretty fucking bad, and given her recent concern about "safe" reads, I'm thinking it's an attempt to appear "non-safe." I find it hard to believe that town Skitter lists Math as scummier than her null reads.

In my eyes, when Mathdino turned up her tune changed to:

no it didn't, and that's a gross misrepresentation of my interaction with math yesterday

[skitter30]

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/corroborative

[skitter30]

yes, me, as scum, thinks its a *really* good idea to scumread town!math and deliberately start a fight with him, kudos for figuring that out.

like, if i'm scum i do my *very* best to avoid math and like *not* catch his attention because he can read me properly and i hate being scumread and like ... calling attention to myself as scum.

Sadly, this probably the towniest thing you made.

It's also self meta and being aware of this nullifies it completely

i mean, if scum!me could actually replicate what i do as town it would make my scumgames remarkably less stressful, but i can't, so yeah.

either way i literally never interact with math that way as scum

[skitter30]

here too: you start off assuming he's town, check his meta, don't see anything to contradict that assumption, so you keep him as town.

Please tell me you're talking about elephant here

i'm talking about shoshin checkin invsibility's meta; idk what elephant has to do with it

[skitter30]

The quote right above that is me and my meta and her town reading me based off it and how I'm town similarly to why ele is town I'm her eyes. Just making sure im not misgendered (again ) carry on

for some reason i read it as being about invisiblity and was talking about him; i read it again and i know that it has your name in it so idk why i did that.
--

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/corroborative

Right. I'm not looking for teams. I'm looking for townies and for scumbags.

Then, I check whether the emerging picture of the game makes any sense by seeing if the three scummiest players make sense as a team. This last step is called corroboration if the team makes sense. Sometimes, the team doesn't make sense and I have to reevaluate the reads themselves.

ok, i'm sorry, i misread that corraborative quote as you placing more import on associatives than you actually apparently do; i guess i misunderstood what you meant by that and i apologize.

--

So apparently, nsg flakes out of some of her scum games, which is pretty damning. Leads me to think there’s a decent chance she’s scum this game.

she just /outed for all the games she's in queues for; it isn't a game-specific thing. I don't know if she's scum or town but i really really really don't think repping out here is AI right now.

[skitter30]

Skitter, I don't get why you're defending NSG so strongly if she's just null for you...

Because I dont think its AI and I think it's a bad reason to scumread her given the context.

[skitter30]

@BS: rask?

Now, I'm not saying that's true but if it was finally. Kinda surprised gamma or otherwise didn't get guess there and you end up being the one to

Finally Re: all meta requests -> search list, wiki has organised game chart Bon Appetit

pedit HMMMM

i finally put together something i remember you saying on the discord, and then checked rask's account and saw that the references regarding your sig and gamma added up.

--

Skitter, I don't get why you're defending NSG so strongly if she's just null for you...

Because I dont think its AI and I think it's a bad reason to scumread her given the context.

Is this something you do as town? Defend players who you don't read as town?

if i think the scumread on them is stupid, yes, even if i'm not townreading them. if you really need me to i could pull up a bunch of examples

[skitter30]

@shoshin:

newbie 1859 - specifically for defending for lurking/activity reasons: defended eth0s for the asinine 'lurking three hours after the gamestart' thing when i didn't have a read on him here; defended eth0s for lurking later in the game when I didn't have a read on him here; general thoughts about lurking being AI here;

mini 1968 - (i'm in a hydra, only linking posts i wrote): defended fykus for meta reasons when I didn't have a read on him here; defended ETL when she was MIA for finals when people were wagoning her here when i didn't have a read on her; same here;

open 713 - the ten page argument i got into here basically started out as a defense of golden paradox who I was slightly scumreading, starting from like here and lasting through the next two dayphases.

open 711 - starting to loudly object to screen's lynch for weird gamestate reasons even though I was scumreading him here

and i kinda got bored of this here

--

I can't work out if skitter feels off because she's scum of because she's tunneling me. This is not a great point in our friendship for her to try and tone read me as a hard scumread.

i mean, you think I"m good at tonereading you? so this is like a weird thing for you to say? and *things i can't talk about right now*

and i'm not tunneling you.

--

Scum skitter's adaptable, I could go on and rap but she'll
Change her play, to give away a vibe that's much more fashionable

This doesn't even rhyme

this basically; I can be really stubborn and I can't fake it.

--

Bernie I'm about to check out for the day (except maybe some mobile posts later)

I agree my vote on Skitter looks bad. I already said that, though (515). It came from skimming and ISOing players too much (also from some synaesthesia-based player confusion) at the time and I just remembered "hey I wanted more from skitter before lemme vote there", then later I realized the content I was asking for had already shown up.

I do feel good about a Keyser vote but I feel better about a Nauci vote. It feels like none of my townreads think Keyser is scum and he hasn't done enough to deserve me tunneling him. I've got time to return to him later with a real case if it still stands so for now I'm voting my scummier read: Nauci.

kbye

I mean, I still think it was a bad vote given the context and what you wanted from me. Like you voted for me to get more content from me that I'd already posted, but you didn't seem to have any sort of commentary/thoughts on that content till I pointed out that your vote was meh and you switched your vote off.

(incidentally i'm synesthetic too so i think that's pretty cool :) )

[skitter30]

@Skitter

Wait but I did ultimately provide those thoughts tho right? Like I talked about the *feels* and I actually explained them and related them to your early posts and how you continued to do it as you posted and I didn't like that but didn't think it was enough to be sure you're scum esp. given you had a good response

a) I think that scumreading someone for a general writing style is really silly tbh; you can ctrl+f through like any of my town ISO's and you'll see that this is just how I write. Idk how I write as scum; I haven't played scum in close to a year and didn't pay attention to this at that time, but after multiple people brought up the 'feels' and 'likes' and 'I thinks' and tried to use that as a reason to scumread me, I became kinda aware of my writing style and like ... it's just how I write and I'll defend that the same way each time; I'm not changing my writing style just cuz people don't like it. (and honestly i predict that if i do people will tell me i feel fabricated probably)

b) like the *feels* is a really inane thing to pick on. like you're focusing on the style of my posts and not the *content*.

c) my point is that you voted me because you 'wanted more' when I had a fair amount of readable content. I pointed out that this was a silly reason to vote me given the context and you unvoted me. you never actually focused on my content till *after* you switched your vote off of me.

like it's weird to vote for someone because you want content when the content already exists and to then remove your vote upon being prompted by the person you voted for lack of content without commenting on said content till after you switch your vote.

--

if anyone is good at tonereading can you tell me what you think of keyser? his posts feel kinda fake to me but i'm not super good at reading people this way in general

--

I can't work out if skitter feels off because she's scum of because she's tunneling me. This is not a great point in our friendship for her to try and tone read me as a hard scumread.

i mean, you think I'm good at tonereading you? so this is like a weird thing for you to say? and *things i can't talk about right now*

and i'm not tunneling you.

duckling, when you have a chance can you talk about this a bit more? I'm actually really confused wrt to the tonereading thing.

[skitter30]

I think we agree this all happened. Is there something scummy here I still need to address or something you don’t understand?

No, I understand quite well; I guess Im just emphasizing that I don't really find that explanation satisfactory.

--

Skitter, do you finally scum read me? You’ve been talking to me like I am town

I’m perplexed how you could read my posts about you but still like me. So I’m no longer a townie with bad reads,

but scum who wants to misslynch you?

???

I never classified you as townie with bad reads, and my read has since degraded from 'minor townlean' to 'idk how to sort this guy right now because I see a lot of concerning things even though I liked his very early game'; this morning we even had a convo about me not sure how to sort you, and I haven't expressed a change in my read of you since then. idk why you're asking me if I 'finally scumread you', or like why you're framing my read of you as 'scum who wants to mislynch me' given that I never said anything of the sort.

I also haven't said recently that I like your posts.

Honestly I dont know where you're getting most of this post from because very little of it reflects my stance on you.

Can you answer the 'is English ur first language' question please?

[skitter30]

And I’m emphasizing that that makes sense. I’ll trust that i come across towny enough otherwise to deserve a townread overall

This feels oddly appealing/conciliatory towards someone you don't townread and were scumreading earlier today.

--

nauci, which game were you scum with irrelephant in?

your catchup is kinda appealing to me since you're basically saying a lot of the things i was thinking at those points in the game; i think i'll wait to say more till you're through.

284 :< Stupid sexist internet statistics. This is the most women I've ever seen in one mafia game (...or maybe on any internet forum thread I've participated in...), which is neat.

aside, i've played more than one game where i was *literally* the only female, and i played a few with nsg where it was just the two of us.

--

Skitter, can you update me on your reads? Are you still scumreading Math?

my reads tend to stay the same unless i have a reason to change them; he hasn't given me such a reason yet. i'm fine waiting to pressure him till he has more time tho; the last time i voted him for little content as pressure i kinda accidentally stayed on his day1 mislynch, whoops, and i don't really want to repeat that, especially since he was insanely easy to read post-hammer during twilight when he actually had time to give thoughts

i'm somewhere hereabouts now:

{}
{shoshin}
{bernie}
{stun}
{nsg, nauci, invisibility} -- null
{mom}
{gamma}
{irrelephant, keyser, math}
{duckling}
{}

it's hard to organize the mom/gamma/irrelephant tiers so they feel *precisely* right; i kinda want to move keyser and/or math up one but they don't feel right being on the same row as gamma and gamma doesn't feel right on the same row as mom so this feels the *most* right atm but it isn't perfect. like they're all scumreads i just don't know how to tier all five of them properly in order right now in terms of strength of the read

[skitter30]

Alright, I feel a bit better about Skitter after skimming those games.

oh, i knew i was forgetting something yesterday: this basically explains my POV in a nutshell

--

Biased because we seem to have very similar perspectives/feelings at a whole lot of times in the game, but I think that I can reasonably give town points for that.

this is basically what i feel towards you rn.

--

(Surely you must think I’m scum though trying to pro-actively misslynch you or a townie with bad reasons to scumread you.. because you have refuted/argued every single point, and also noted I’ve grossly misrepresented you... and said my tone is fake..?) looks like you’re not being lynched D1 so I’ll have to re-look at my read of you D2

no, i said i didn't know how to sort you at that point, which means i couldn't tell if you're town with bad reads or scum trying to mislynch me; i didn't put you in either category at that time

atm you're tending towards scum

yes i'm actually that stubborn and yes i'll actually quibble over every little thing if i think it's silly or unwarranted.

--

not gonna happen. what's your intention in applying unnecessary pressure when I literally don't have the capacity to rock your world rn?

duckling do you think you'll be able to engage better within a couple of (irl) days?

--

If anyone wants reactions from me regarding any specific Nauci points, just ask. I had the same thought as Shoshin, overall - Nauci knows I'm better than this as scum (not to mention the help I'd be getting from most possible scummates on a playerlist that averages pretty talkative & experienced).

I'm messy, unfocused, and acting overconfident, and it's because I'm still figuring out how to play as town.

even tho brass won't clarify if there's daytalk, i don't think that insinuating that there is in fact daytalk is inherently a slip because most games that i've played here have daytalk so i just kinda assume it's a thing at this point, although i usually do check to see if its in the OP.

who are you familiar with in this playerlist?

the bolded is kinda :/ i kinda feel like you're emphasizing about being perceived as town, if that makes sense? i'll try to figure out how to articulate this better if i can. like you want me to townread you, you seem to want you/shoshin to be a townbloc, and are defending your play here as 'figuring out how to play as town'. it feels kinda off to me.

i actually skimmed through the ISOs of both of your newbies and i didn't see anything like that in either of them.

--

also could somebody explain the thing with gemini and postcount?

me and math were in a game with her a few weeks ago and i kinda mislynched her, oops. he told me after she can be read on postcount, ie that if she's posting a lot and seems active she's town; if she isn't she's probably scum. i have not personally asceratined the veracity of that read; that's how math thinks she can be read.

--

I recognize that "I look scummy so I must be town" is a bad argument. The argument I'm trying to make though is "My play shows a lack of concern for how I come across, which isn't scummy".

i kinda disagree with this argument; i think your posts do in fact give off the impression that you're concerned about how you come across. (and the fact that i picked up on this before i saw that you're claiming you're doing the opposite is kinda ???? and kinda indicates that this is indeed something you're worried about and that it bled through your posts)

--

i finally put together something i remember you saying on the discord, and then checked rask's account and saw that the references regarding your sig and gamma added up.

OH NOW I GET IT
So it took me being wrong to get the puzzle solved, nice

gamma your posts are fluffy and are not game-solving.

[skitter30]

i'm kinda gut-townreading gamma atm but i have literally no justification for it besides gut

[skitter30]

Didn't think this would get this long. Again, very interested to hear cross reference with people with experience, atm skitter and nauci if anything have a similar take and others (@@@Mathdino) IIRC haven't spoken up much yet. I may have missed something though so please highlight it if so.

he feels uncharacteristically low energy for town!him. i've never played with scum him, so idk what his scum!meta is, but this feels very different from previous town games he's played.

i don't know if it's an irl thing or a scum thing though, and he did indicate that he thinks he can engage better later in the week.

i think i'm OK with waiting a few days irl for that to happen because the more i think about it i'm not sure if the differences are actually game-related or like AI in any way.

for now VOTE: irrelephant but i'll prob return to the duck if he doesn't contribute by eod.

[skitter30]

i try not to focus on associatives pre-flip because i kinda get fucked over if i think about it too much without real data, and then tend to find evidence that fits the theory instead of the other way around.

he probably isn't scum with nauci, but i dislike that he lampshaded the associatve in

Hey at least now you can all probably see that me/Nauci isn’t s/s wooo

if nauci is scum with him she'd have to have literally started a bussing wagon which i find kinda unlikely.

irrelephant doesn't have a read on tw as far as i can tell?

this is the last time 'the worst' appears in his ISO by ctrl+f; he doesn't mention gemini or 'duck' anywhere at all.

I can't read the worst tell me more

shoshin just listed a scumpool of five (incidentally including tw) and he was like, ok, sure, that's cool, lets be buddies now; i don't think that has much significance wrt tw being a potential irrelephant partner. i'm actually more concerned about the buddying he was doing there-ish to shoshin than his tw read, especially since she was focusing more on other players in that pool at the time (ie me), so if tw was theoretically a partner he might not be too worried that town!her had FOS'd partner!tw there. basically i don't think shoshin's scumread of tw there is really significant or indicative of partners either way.

[skitter30]

this is the last time 'the worst' appears in his ISO by ctrl+f; he doesn't mention gemini or 'duck' anywhere at all.

in the interest of being thorough, i just checked for 'tw'; most of the hits were for 'btw' and a few were actually in reference to tw, but all in a offhanded kinda way and didn't really indicate a read on him, and were from earlier in the game than the quote i pulled above.

[skitter30]

math, am i in a retaliatory OMGUS scumread tunnel thing?

[skitter30]

I will say I tried to get the American Presidents Mafia

as close to normal as possible

. Knowledge of the American Presidents, pre-Reagan (I have maintained the decision on suggestion by Pine[?] that the newest possible president is Jimmy Carter) is not necessary either.

from the queue thread for reference

[skitter30]

my scumread of you has little to do with that game tbh

[skitter30]

very true, and i agree that if you just had the one scumgame idk how super reliable that meta is tbh

[skitter30]

or at least, it isn't really reliable for me because i can't cold meta that well and you don't have a large bank of scum and/or towngames to compare to; i'd need more data to try to draw a pattern if i don't have first-hand experience

[skitter30]

i can understand where she's coming from because she actually has that first-hand experience so she's using that to try to read you. that makes sense to me, and how i usually approach these sorts of things if i actually have recent first-hand experience; i have a fairly decent track record with that.

i really don't know if her conclusions are necessarily accurate tho without spending a lot more time studying that game and the scum pt for that game, which i may or may not do; it depends how much time i have/feel like spending on meta.

[skitter30]

re:

consistently focusing on refuting a certain person’s

points who looks town in an attempt to spread doubt/confusion.

oh, i do that to everyone if i think they're wrong; my read on him isn't really relevant.

[skitter30]

oh, to clarify in case i worded that badly, i meant that my read on you has little to do with the fact that i'm refuting your points; i'm doing that cuz i think you're wrong.

you're ~nullscum atm; i'm not entirely sure that you were misrepping me on purpose so much as misreading things and not understanding what i meant.

like i don't think that 'misrepping me and spreading lies' == 'scum' in this context because i'm not sure if you were, like, doing that on purpose or just misreading me.

i do think you were trying to lynch me though, yes.

[skitter30]

soooo, posts like that are why i think you may be trying to buddy shoshin

[skitter30]

I mean, I'm pretty sure I said earlier that I don't want to lynch you right now because you said you think you'll be more engaged later in the week and that I'll wait till then, and that I switched off your wagon because of it.

I'm going to be very honest tho and say that your posting is :/ and that i don't really see a reason to townread you here

uh pardon me since when do you know me well enough that you can tell what's fake from me? o.0

So you're saying I should make no attempt to read you because I don't know you?

although to be fair to the duck this is a really leading/loaded question.

[skitter30]

Nauci is probably town. 749 discouraging any sort of town player from even crumbing a power role seems like a town-motivated push, not a scum-motivated push. I still need to see more from here, however, to upgrade my read on her.

i don't think this is a hard thing for scum to fake

--

ven if whatsherface and skits (I think it was) told each other that they were excited to play the same alignment, I don't think replacing out should ever be alignment indicative and no one really has given duck a chance to do more than get his feet wet.

if this is referring to me idk what you mean by this

Further more, this case on duck came when after duck said he wouldn't have any time to defend himself, and after duck is at a vulnerable L-2 (1?) position making it completely viable that duck gets lynched before he even had more time to get himself busy.

the highest it got was L-3

also see 741

--

Ugh Nauci you’re sounding towny sometimes but you keep calling for my lynch and it doesn’t feel like you actually think I’m scum you just want me lynched and I want us both to be town but we’re never gonna be able to work together if we are, are we

I highly doubt this is something scum would say to someone they are scum reading/trying to lynch.

really? this quote from irrelephant actually sounds super fake to me; it kinda reads like he's discrediting her push tbh

--

i don't particularly get the scumreads/votes on nauci right now.

intersting to note that mom votes nauci and duckling moves his vote off of mom onto nauci. i'm *pretty* sure from voting patterns that mom and duckling aren't scum together even though mom's defending him; the timing of their votes don't really feel like partners to me.

--

Like, I could imagine the worst replacing into a scum slot,

immediately going into denial over the fact,

and sort of reacting to that by spinning a lie about how he mind melded before replacement. Then when he gets questioned about it, he's like, oh, fuck, I shouldn't have said that, there's not actually much to mind meld with.

i haven't actually like, played, with scum!him, but from what i understand, he has a fairly decent scumgame and doesn't like, hate playing scum or anything so idk why this would be his immediate reaction.

i do agree about the mindmeld bit though

[skitter30]

I mean, I'm pretty sure I said earlier that I don't want to lynch you right now because you said you think you'll be more engaged later in the week and that I'll wait till then, and that I switched off your wagon because of it.

I did pick this... there's a small handful of players on the list who seem to actually want to sort me rather than compromise lynch.

yeah i really don't want to compromise lynch on you; i can give you a few (irl) days to figure it out (don't really want to drag this out over several phases tho)

it was more a response to mom who's saying that nobody was taking that into account when i'd actually made a post about that a few hours ago

[skitter30]

math, am i in a retaliatory OMGUS scumread tunnel thing?

when you're around can you answer this? i'm trying not to do the whole obsessive-tunnel thing that tends to ruin gamestates if i'm like seeing things that aren't here

[skitter30]

I think this is a very bad faith post. I remember several people commenting on the worst's posting, I specifically wrote about him and my experiences/read of his meta (I don't think I even commented on his predecessor), and BS wrote a whole meta schpiel about his play. I can't tell if you're selectively reading or deliberately misrepping.

i'm toying with the idea that she may be wk'ing a mislynch

i'm pretty confident that they aren't svs tho

--

No I felt like we’d reasonably narrowed the pool to five players that had a high chance of flipping red. I also felt confident that Shoshin is town and in our last game she was pretty good at discerning things

I think I misunderstood the whole ‘sheep me and Shoshin’ post then.

I don’t think you actually shared the same scum reads as Shoshin (bar your mutual dislike of Nauci, and as expressed by your latest reads list). However, even if you t/read Shoshin hard: that doesn’t mean her reads are going to be any more accurate. So I feel that ‘sheep Me and Shoshin’ invitation was disingenuous (or unnecessary).

i'm pretty sure that post was a meme

i think it also may have been an attempt to buddy shoshin

--

Nauci, do you think Irrelephant makes this post -

do you often ignore questions? It's very hard getting you to answer things directed straight at you)

I will vouch for the fact that this is true of town Shoshin, and is part of why I'm having an easier time townreading her than most players

- as scum? Why not let Skitter's paranoia fester?

i mean, my paranoia is festering just fine; he doesn't really need to help it along lol.

i think at that point he wasn't super interested in my opinion of him or you (this is before i called him out for his vote on me i think, or at least that became a thing and he was under suspicion), but was more concerned about what *you* thought of him. like i don't think i'm the target/audience of that post; you are.

[skitter30]

eh, there are players who'll do that as scum when they rep out

*cough* math *cough*

[skitter30]

Like, Skitter, assume for a moment that Irrelephant's scum who knows that you're town and that I'm town. Why would he encourage you to townread me instead of sitting back and letting your paranoia fester? The last thing scum want is for two townies who suspect each other to suddenly start trusting each other and working together.

honestly i don't think my read on him/you at that moment was super important to him as either alignment. he's played with you and is more worried about what you think about him than what i did at that time.

like if he's scum, i think he was more worried about reinforcing his townread on you and buddying you than what i thought of you. iirc my comment about you was in a longer wallpost and that's the only thing he commented on - he was focusing on talking about you, not on particularly responding to me.

and i was in middle of having an argument with you; him piping in to say he thought you were town wasn't exactly going to change that or change my opinoin of you at that moment

--

okay i know this is really crappy of me but

@mod replace me out

because having to read over the game feels like a burden

afia;fa

honestly of the (4) repouts this might be the grossest? or is at least tied with gemini's i think

--

Sidenote: I have 100% at least once if not more times read skitter posts thinking they were stun posts and stun posts thinking they were skitter posts because synaesthesia

aside, this is a problem that i have too

--

Gustavo replaces stungun0404. Please welcome him.

The slot which he got was determined by rolling dice, and should not be considered AI for any of the slots being replaced at this time.

hi!
--

I seriously don't understand. Did I misunderstand your post?

Are you saying Nauci is not playing up to her town meta?

are you saying that you're having trouble understanding what he means by the notation 'town!nauci'? it means nauci-with-a-town-alignment.

like when he says 'nauci is not feeling like town!nauci', he's saying that this-game nauci doesn't remind of the nauci-who-was-town that he's familiar with from some previous game

--

Who is the "they" here? Is "she" referring to the momrangal post I mentioned, or about me?

sorry, that was addressed at you; 'she' was referring to mom. ie i think mom may be wk'ing a tw mislynch

--

it's okay, right back atcha.

I just felt misrepped because I am not posting random stuff and don't do that as either alignment I just don't feel like I've had the time or the opportunity to actually present myself. you're fine I need to put more effort into obvtowning.

i really don't know if this lack of motivation is like AI here; and like the pressure clearly isn't going to make him do anything, so i think we can give him a few (irl) days to get back into it imo

I'm struggling to form townreads without sheeping at this point which is killing motivation further. Sorry to ruin your day but I'm town and I'm not getting mislynched today. Stop positioning me for a mislynch and move on to something else.

however i'm not sure what to make of this in this context (you know why i think)

--

Not_Mafia replaces Invisibility. Again, I rolled a dice to determine who replaces whom. It has been totally random that the first to request replacement is also the last to be replaced.

Please welcome Not_Mafia

hi!

--

Not_Mafia! Excellent. Easiest guy to read in the game. Such a simple mind. In a good way.

really? i iwish i had this skill

[skitter30]

really? i iwish i had this skill

The trick is to not overthink it. Is he doing pro-town things? He's town. Is he doing pro-scum things? He's scum.

yeah so it's a bit hard for me to diffrentiate from him. i'll sheep math when he comes back probably tbh.

--

I look forward to playing this set-up again when my consciousness has been uploaded into a machine and the roles include Ted Nugent, Joe Arpaio and Snooki

i just want to say that although you frustrate me in a mafia sense, i do appreciate your sense of humor

--

uh pardon me since when do you know me well enough that you can tell what's fake from me? o.0

Even this way of defending himself is bullshit. I call something fake, and his response is, "you don't know me well enough to know it's fake." He's not even denying that it's fake... instead he just wants to discredit me...

I don’t even know how you reached that conclusion...

Sorry was examing the biggest wagon but that last series of posts has me looking at sho’s Iso.

Somebody who isn’t sho, please tell me why he isn’t l-1 right now?

i'm reasonably confident that she's town, and is prob close to one of my strongest townreads.

i kinda feel like you've decided that there must be scum on the nauci wagon and that shoshin is it. honestly the nauci wagon isn't really a thing and is just kinda residual as people are trying to figure out what to do with tw and the many replacements.

who did you replace again? if stungun, you've kinda lost the townread on the slot.

--

VOTE: shoshin

He’s not a team player. I ask him a few questions and he flails and votes me. By his own definition of what scum is, he’s guilty of being scum.

I’ll see y’all day 2.

this is a gross vote and town is fully capable of displaying cog-dis; your questions are bad and i don't think she's flailing. the way you're approaching her thought process is very black and white; you're like calling her scum for not immediately switching off the nauci wagon even tho town doesn't often immediately switch wagons when they express a greater scumread; that isn't like an inherently scummy trait or anything.

are you like trying to dismantle the nauci wagon? that's the vibe i'm getting right now

same vibe from:

does this not strike you as a situation scum!Shoshin would try to avoid being in though?

That’s wifom my friend. I don’t have time to play the wifom game. His iso reeks, his vote on nauci was opportunistic and he refused to explain why, he had doubt yet he stayed on.

To me that’s scum. I’ll log off and do the rest of my reading and take notes on my own time but for now I have no interest in voting nauci. Have no interest in voting you. I’ll develop more reads later.

given that she isn't like in any remote danger of getting lynched atm, this is pretty odd imo.

[skitter30]

i have firsthand experience with math's reads being good, and i only trust him on certain players that i know he can read better than me (nsg and nm are the main people i trust him with tbh)

i also think he'd probably tell the truth as scum on nsg irregardless of her alignment.

i really don't sheep in general unless i think that person's reads are significantly more likely to be correct than my own, and i only think that if i ey have substantive proof that they can read that player well; math is for most intents and purposes probably the only person who generally falls in this category tbh

like i think you're probably town but i'm not going to sheep you on random reads because i don't know your read accuracy

incidentally i am considering voting gustavo, but it's not because i'm sheeping you

[skitter30]

are you like trying to dismantle the nauci wagon?

No. I was just looking for a starting point because I’m not actually going to read every post that’s been made so far. Day 1 is the most useless day anyway so I figured I’d cut right to the chase.

ok but i'm like trying to explain that the nauci wagon isn't actually a thing right now; it's just where a few people are vote-sitting.

now that i think about it that's actually a really bad sign for the gamestate

--

Btw if you look at shoshin’s town game. His first serious vote on invisibility includes reasons with his vote - viewtopic.php?p=10200938#p10200938

His 2nd serious vote was on mumble and it included reasons - viewtopic.php?p=10212098#p10212098

His 3rd serious vote was on me and it included reasons - viewtopic.php?p=10220015#p10220015

His 4th vote lacked reason but his 5th had some.

Please somebody verify what I’ve just posted and see if what sho says below is truthful.

As you know from Tropical, I don't always state my reasons for voting. So why ask this question?

i really think that this is a fairly arbitrary metric and isn't super AI; she hasn't really voted that much in this game anyways.

--

i'm reasonably confident that she's town, and is prob close to one of my strongest townreads.

I’ll ask you to reconsider given the information I’ve provided so far. I don’t think you in good faith can maintain that given I’ve proven she has been dishonest. She used her dishonesty to paint me in a negative light.

I feel I’ve provided multiple reasons why she is a good lynch today.

My play may be odd to you but if you are actually town you have to admit that it’s proven effective especially if she flips scum

.

ok i did my hw and checked her scumgame and i don't think this game is like anything like that game; her posts her are incredibly more nuanced and exhibit, like, real thought when you compare that to here.

maybe i'll check her towngame if i'm bored later

i don't know where you think she's been dishonest.

and i really hate the bolded because i won't know if you're right till after she flipped - like i see no reason to believe that you can read her better than i can right now, and i won't have proof till she's dead (and incidentally secured a mislynch if she's town).

--

-skitter I am drunk dumb rn but can you explain what you mean by white knighting a tw lynch? Does that mean being against said lynch?

i mean i think she may be scum defending town!tw for the mislynch in the hopes of gaining towncred

--

But speaking of that, that’s not how you read not mafia. I’ve don’t think I’ve ever seen not mafia do pro town things as town. I often find myself wondering why not mafia even joins games because of how little they contribute. But anyway.

are you an alt? you're reminding of someone i played with once

As I said those are things I found suspicious, the fact she outright refused to answer a simple question. She lied saying she did that in the other game we played (I’ve just proven she lied) and I should somehow know better and then I think she accused me of misrepping her?

maybe i missed something but i'm not sure where you showed she lied? or can you give me more context than just 'she lied'
--

I’m willing to straight up policy lynch you for that alone because no town should refuse to explain themselves when asked, but thankfully you’ve done other things that are suspicious so I’m comfortable tunneling you.

i really don't think that's a pl worthy offense, and i still don't get on what basis you're tunneling her tbh

--

like 1037 exhibits the nuance that her scum game completely lacked imo

--

i don't really gus right now but i can't tell if that's a scum thing or a playstyle thing

i'm also getting not super great vibes from mom

i might be voting there soon i think

[skitter30]

i'm kinda waiting for math to come back

[skitter30]

i mean i'm not like specifically waiting for him in order to do something, but i feel like his thoughts woudl be very helpful

there's like the same ~7 people who keep talking to each other and i feel like these other slots are going by the wayside

[skitter30]

eh, i want to do this for now

VOTE: mom

[skitter30]

Skitter the wk is an interesting theory; do you believe the premise for it, that tw is town?

i didn't like his entrance but i ultimately decided it wasn't AI because it doesn't really feel like him as either alignment; i think it's more of a lack of motivation thing that isn't necessarily game-related

i don't think he's done anything ai since then.

the way she defended him felt kinda off and almost self-righteous-y, like she was the only considering that his behavior might not be AI or game-related; like she was going on about how nobody was willing to give him slack when me and other people had already done so. it really rubbed me the wrong way and is also indicative of not reading the thread.

also i didn't like the posts she made this morning; pretty much the same ones you pulled out

i'm pretty confident that the two of them are not s/s tho; i'd be quite surprised if they were because the timing of their votes on you and tw's vote on mom doesn't feel like partners

p-edit: hi math

[skitter30]

gamma, who's scum?

[skitter30]

like half of your case was based on meta and whether or not she gives reasons for votes

[skitter30]

also, again, can you show me where you think she was lying?

[skitter30]

Skitter, I didn't lie about anything. Gus thinks I lied because I said I voted without providing any reasoning in Tropical and he's in denial about the reality that I did in fact vote without reasoning in Tropical. I think Irrelephant cleared this up earlier.

ok thank you because i still wasn't sure what the lie was

i really don't think this is significant or like ai at all

[skitter30]

yeah let's not fall into that trap. it's a sitewide thing and literally not ai in any sense

[skitter30]

I dont think that's a clearing vote actually.

Maybe I'll read the past three pages at some point.

[skitter30]

If nm just repped in and really didn't read anything he might think the gamma wagon has more traction than it actually has and decided to hop on for the cred while he can as partners.

For someone reading the game I'd prob agree with you, but that doesn't necessarily apply here.

Pedit: hi

[skitter30]

like half of your case was based on meta and whether or not she gives reasons for votes

No my case has absolutely nothing to do with meta. The point of the meta dive was to prove she lied. The lying, not cooperating, refusing to provide a reason for her vote, and misrepping other players while accusing me of it are basically why I’m scum reading.

If town can you please try better at reading comprehension? It makes the game so much easier if you actually know what you’re talking about before speaking.

Thank you

lol ok; can't say i've often had people complain about *my* reading comprehension

i think that you're too rigid and that you're basically pushing her on the basis of lynch all liars when i don't realy think it's like a signifcant or meaningful or ai lie.

-

also, again, can you show me where you think she was lying?

I honestly don’t believe you didn’t see the post.

i didn't, skimmed back through your ISO, wasn't sure what you were talking about, so ctrl+F'd for 'lied', and the first hit was you saying 'she lied' but there was no context in that post. so i asked.

and it has since been demonstrated that she hadn't.

honestly i don't think this is a fruitful topic of discussion from either of you

--

He did lie. Quite blatantly and because he tried to use that lie against me, it makes it AI

i really don't think she did. i think you're making a mountain out of a molehill; i'm still deciding if this is scummy or just how you approach the game in general; maybe i'll do a meta dive if i'm motivated to do so

--

Gustavo I'd just solely read on the basis of stungun who I highly doubt could've had anything near that level of thought in his scumrange as a newbie

yeah i'm probably just going to do this tbh

--

nauci is probably town too

--

this post scumpings me

--

Mom, what's your current read on Gamma?

I'm hung up on it.

Gamma is not town, and makes sense as scum but at the same time something doesn't feel right.

Wagon comp could be better and I may be hung up on the fact that Bernie is on there. It doesn't seem like much of a bus placement but in my mind, both Bernie and gamma have decent chance of flipping scum but I don't see much associations between them.

That aside, I feel like gamma has been getting a little bit more engaged and I don't want to discourage that especially when I think I see some probing I don't remember coming from scum gamma

this post is gross and fence-sitty. 'gamma is not town, and makes sense as scum but at the same time something doesn't feel right' - like what does this even mean?

like you're supporting and promoting the gamma wagon in a non-tangible way without actually joining it.

--

Irrelephant's 171 is the towniest post in the game (172 pretty town too but it's just in the standard way)

why on 171? i don't think that's a particularly townie post tbh. it's like nai to me.

--

Townreading Errant, Shoshin, Momrangal

wait why on errant and mom?

i don't think errant's posting is ai, and mom's is pretty scummy imo

--

I need to find the 3rd scum. I’m not reading the entire game though. I guess I can just iso random people

so, if you think shoshin and gamma are scum, why do you think shoshin is voting gamma right now?

--

@Gamma - what do you think my read of you should be right now, based on my above opinions of your play so far?

this is a really weird question

--

Nobody has explained why town sho would lie like he did, why town sho would refuse to answer me, or even why town show would accuse others of misrepping when he is guilty of it himself.

you're arguing from the perspective - i don't see town motivation for what she did. town players do that all the time.
i think it's more insightful to look for *scum* motivation instead of looking for lack of town motivation

--

Btw gamma, The fact you went a majority of the day without voting anyone is a huge red flag. The few times I’ve seen that those people flipped scum. Even if I’m wrong and you are actually town, it’s shameful you’ve done that.

i do this fairly frequently as town, although i do it less often now. i can point to several games where i've done this, especially day1. (or just keep my RVS vote till close to deadline)

--

But sho didn't even lie?

She did and I proved she did. That’s my issue right now. How can do many people deny actual proof is beyond me.

the cog-dis is strong with this one

--

eh you might be town even if i disagree with like everything you say.

have you ever pushed a lynch/scumread this strongly before as town?

I like a gamme lynch, i'd be ok with maybe a math or skitter lynch also.

why me?

[skitter30]

i kinda want a mom wagon to be a thing

my gut's screaming that gamma is a mislynch. it doesn't really feel like a wagon on scum to me

[skitter30]

Irrelephant can you talk more about why you're townreading mom please?

[skitter30]

i feel like her defense of tw may have been a white-knight; it doesn't really feel sincere to me; it feels kinda self-righteous.

i don't think these are strong reasons to townread her

Her low activity seems tied to real life, not alignment (or at least she’s said so once or twice)
And her associatives leave me with no real scumteams that make sense to me? So I’d really have to be misreading someone else for her to be scum I think
ISO does leave much to be desired though so I get the scumread

her activity has nothing to do with my read on her

i think that not scumreading someone on the basis of there being a paucity of partners day1 preflips is silly.

further i think she can be scum on associatives (barring my read on the other person) with literally everyone except tw; there isn't really anything ruling out any of those scumteams imo

i've seen literally not reason to townread her, and several reasons to scumread her

--

i don't really understand the bernie wagon tbh

--

this post is gross and fence-sitty. 'gamma is not town, and makes sense as scum but at the same time something doesn't feel right' - like what does this even mean?

Guess it means I'm scum getting cold feet from a Gamma!bus

Realtalk tho, you're pulling this out of context

ok, what am i pulling out of context?

--

Town or vague town or at least one concrete reason for town: the worst

ok, why the duckling?

I think there's definitely something scummy about how skitter dances around her scumreads but I think it's in line with what i've seen from her, playstyle wise. More on this if necessary but that's where I'm at there.

oh? i don't think i dance around with my scumreads, would be interested in hearing you say why you think that

--

Let’s lynch Gamma and end this day already

do you think shoshin and gamma are scum together, y/n?

--

Let’s lynch Gamma and end this day already

How about let's not just yet
the fact that the game suddenly stalled is really fucking questionable

right, that's what's bothering me i think.

it feels too complacent; some of the votes on you have been there since like ~200's and there's a lot of people who just haven't been posting.

it doesn't feel right to me right now.

(aside, i'm regularly v/la on weekends)

--

super interested in why you think this, the nullness of my read on Nauci is like. nibbling at the back of my skull.

it was 1146; it exhibits a level of nuance that i think usually doesn't coem from scum. it's not a super hard townread, but enough to take her out of my lynchpool for day1

what part of the wagon composition is bugging you? note for myself to reconsider this.

it feels very ... complacent to me, i geuss is a good word? math's been on there for like a week, i only townread two people on it (shoshin + bernie, i guess provisionally gustavo too), it feels like it's inevitable almost? there's like nobody complaining about it except me and it just ... doesn't feel right to me.

like basically all the active people support it and half the wagon is comprised of inactive people (bernie, nm) and/or people who don't really understand the current gamestate (math, nm), and one person on it is pushing it despite the fact that his biggest scumread is on it (gustavo) and i've asked him to talk more about it like twice now and he hasn't responded to that, which makes me doubt his ability to understand wagonomics.

like it just doesn't feel like a good wagon to me. like the only vote that i don't particularly have a problem with is shoshin's.

like it just feels like a compromise by people who i don't think have the knowledge required to make that decision, if that makes sense.

he's been low site activity recently but scum!Dino consistently plays with a greater agenda. like if Math is scum here I don't see what he's doing.

i mean, given that he's literally sitewide inactive, idk why you're attributing the lack of this greater agenda to towniness and not to 'not having time for this game right now'-ness

--

No longer townreading worst.

why?

--

ftr I really need to talk to Skitter rn

i am around for a bit now

--

24 hours is flexible based on if any of math, notmaf, or errant want time to contribute more
Or if multiple people think that’s too soon

i absolutely do not want the day to end before math and/or bernie returns if possible

--

I don't mind pressuring others but I'd lynch Gamma before I ever lynch Mom because if Mom's scum I think she'd have voted town Gamma already.

why do you think that?

[skitter30]

i will prob be v/la tomorrow; may or may not post but i will def be back on monday

[skitter30]

hmm I kinda get what you mean. it's definitely stalled and taken too long but I still feel like it's a solid and well intended wagon. :/

it really doesn't feel right to me

[skitter30]

duckling if i'm town adn your'e scum how do you interact with me?

[skitter30]

you're not feeling very town to me right now either tbh

i townread like ~4 people and the rest of the game is scummy or inactive or idk how to read

[skitter30]

do you think shoshin and gamma are scum together, y/n?

@gustavo for like the third time

[skitter30]

I'm town if that helps at all

no, that really doesn't

[skitter30]

regarding what? that you're town or the gamma/shoshin thing? i really want gustavo to answer the latter question

[skitter30]

actually i reconsider my take on the lack of opposition to the gamma thing; nauci, if gamma ever flips scum that's a gross post and you're my first bet for a partner

specifically i'm considered that the first time you brought up this take is *after* i made a thing about it, and that you've been pushing the gamma and/or his wagon for a while now despite not joining it

like how do you just now decide 'at a glance i find the lack of a counter wagon' possibly disturbing; you literally just had a thing about people's voting patterns, and nm has been on the wagon for like three irl days now.

[skitter30]

like the timing of that take is incredibly suspicious given your trajectory thus far

[skitter30]

it was 1146; it exhibits a level of nuance that i think usually doesn't coem from scum.

What's the nuance that doesn't come from scum?

i meant that nuance of that level doesn't usually come from scum in my experience

[skitter30]

-the only reason I could see for scumrelephant to defend the towniness of both Shoshin and Gustavo is to keep Gus as a mislynch for later while pocketing Shosh, but that seemed way too far fetched. There are a half dozen good potential mislynch targets for down the road when half the game isn't close to town read. Scumrelephant would have benefited from letting one set the other up as scum to remove one of the most townread slots either way, but made cases for why neither of them might be scummy. The post digging up Shosh votes and refuting Gus without necessarily scum casing him was a point for townrelephant and I don't think there's a huge chance it was a hyper elaborate ploy, and even if it was, I don't mind scumrelephant bring tryhard pro-town. But the responses about Keyser still have me too wary to move to anything close to a town read.

it was specifically this paragraph; it exhibits a strong understanding of the gamestate and trying to understand the motivations of other players

[skitter30]

either way, i just lost the townread; i'm down to like ~3 now

[skitter30]

i don't understand why it's super hard to make a mom wagon a thing tbh; the only people like townreading her are irrelpahnt and duckling

--

I'm not super sure what you're talking about but the post I made was just after I read Shoshin's reply to me and I didn't read any of the updates because I hadn't had time

meh, ok. the timing was super suspicious tho

--

794 and surrounding were solid af fmpov. like I am not a fan of how I was positioned as scum for my predecessor and irl busyness here. it crossed my mind several times that I was an easy af push for scum to hide behind, and I found Mom seeing things exactly the same way.

either she's town or has me pocketed hard but I'm not sure what scum!Mom's method is in WKing me here

well, duh, because she defended you

who are the scum that positioned your slot for a lynch?

i didn't like that post from her; most of her posting doesn't seem *sincere* or *real* to me; a lot of it feels kinda mechanical is maybe a good word? going through the motions? i don't know how to explain that better

--

besides honestly that's just the wrong track. Gamma is just not town here, and it's seriously gross the way you're pussyfooting around his lynch.

you know, for someone who's that confident he's scum, i'm wondering why you're not on the wagon yet

--

do you think shoshin and gamma are scum together, y/n?

@gustavo for like the third time

Idk

ok, let's try it this way. given that you scumread them both independantly what do you think of the fact that shoshin is pushing a gamma lynch right now?

--

Huh this post makes me feel better about momrangal, because I'm now seeing that "something doesn't feel right" about the gamma wagon...

Hmm.

UNVOTE:

bleh, no, why'd you hop off?

--

People are probably bored like I am. I called for the day to end a while back. We just need to end it. The stall could be because you are scum and it’s mostly town on it, or you are town and it’s scum led.

Who knows

um, no, the the entire point of the game is to figure out which of the two it is; atm i think it's the latter from the complacent gamestate

--

So thinking about it NM inactivity might be NAI? This isn't anywhere near solid fyi

following up on this with a vote on him after nauci votes there is meh

--

My experience with Nm is he’s useless and never actually plays the game. He literally does nothing to help town

I almost never want to PL but extreme inactivity and refusal to participate from a slot that only posts 2 words to prod Dodge makes the whole game so much harder to read that I want to. Like he's so anti town that it's made me question the scumread of Gamma I had for most of the game and if he's just going to be a source of this paranoia indefinitely even if he's not scum I can't abide it. The only reason I didn't already do this is because for some reason a lot of town were making "oh nm is always undeterringly useless and anti town" statements that discouraged voting there but I don't see why

VOTE: not_mafia

I do think gamma would give us more to read tomorrow than NM but literally everyone would

Not sure if nm flip would give us any info but that's just more of my frustration with the slot

i'm literally always down to pl nm if there's nothing better in the given gamestate but there's like legit scummy people in this game so idk why we'd settle for this today. like this is just a cop out.

and idk why his naked vote on gamma is enough to make you question your read on gamma; he always does that as either alignment and like i don't think that vote is ai like at all tbh

like this just feels like such a lazy resolution to today, even worse than a gamma lynch

if there's like a vig he's always a great shot; same with a cop check imo

there's justs so many scummy people in this game i have no idea why we'd settle for a pl in this gamestate
--

Hey Irrelephant, I don't know if you remember but NM was my strongest townread in that Newbie game before he died (like I was at 99% town). NM's readable and anyone suggesting otherwise is just wrong. And even if they think he's a policy lynch, they shouldn't be pushing his lynch today,

you push policy at LYLO not D1

.

lol no. you try to get them vigged if possible and if that isn't a thing you lynch them well before lylo to ensure that they aren't lylo lynchbait or to ensure they won't lolvote in lylo

--

Shoshin I saw people saying NM is readable if he posts, which makes sense. I've skimmed games where NM posts and I would agree he's readable then. But how does your view factor in when he's averaging 2-3 words a day?

He's posting a usual amount for someone who is set on a Gamma lynch.

yes this is literally the problem with this gamestate

--

okay seriously the guy often votes well lategame and becomes substantially more readable as we get flips

please please tell me you guys are drunk

duckling your posts are scumpinging me

[skitter30]

duckling how do you read me?

[skitter30]

who are the scum that positioned your slot for a lynch?

re-read my ISO
literally said the idea crossed my mind, net all things I didn't find anyone particularly scummy for it. the way Bernie pushed it was a bit icky but he's already a hard townread.

still means I find it townie for someone to reach the same conclusion.

i'll reread your iso in a bit; i'm kinda semi v/la today so it'll be tonight or tommorow. like very little of what you're saying is memorable so i really don't recall what most of your positions are offhand

i find general stances like 'i think scum may have positioned my slot for a lynch but i don't find anyone particularly scummy for it' to be incredibly scummy. it's vaguely shade-throwing an entire group of group of people without every directing that suspicion at a particular person.

there's a game i super want to reference but can't yet .....

[skitter30]

794 and surrounding were solid af fmpov. l

ike I am not a fan of how I was positioned as scum for my predecessor and irl busyness here

. it crossed my mind several times that I was an easy af push for scum to hide behind, and I found Mom seeing things exactly the same way.

either she's town or has me pocketed hard but I'm not sure what scum!Mom's method is in WKing me here

so can you like explain what the bolded means then?

[skitter30]

and the next sentence too i suppose.

[skitter30]

and when i ask you who you think is doing that you told me that 'net all things I didn't find anyone particularly scummy for it' in 1439, so how am i not understanding your stance?

[skitter30]

ok so after checking it out do you think that there's scum in that group? and if so, who do you think it is?

[skitter30]

ok i guess i misunderstood what you meant by that then, sorry

[skitter30]

Also wow good memory Nauci, the one correction being *recently married :D

congrats :) :) :)

--

IMO read with a focus on the slots that are/were most up for lynch today: gamma, the worst, NM, Bernie, momrangal,

me

, maaaaaybe gus and Irrelephant

you were never up for lynch today?

--

tbh a lot of 1466 feels like you're buddying me

I didn't have as many strong scum reads as you do. While waiting for the weirdness on the Gamma wagon to shake out, I realized a ton of the weirdness was because how much frustration NM added to the whole evaluation. I went back and saw comments like "NM NEVER contributes" and "he never does anything pro-town" and thought that it was something to confront. Also I hadn't seen an NM game nearly this quiet. Thank you for the meta context here; I'd been waiting for Math to tell me about NM.

i mean, i think he's basically useless and that he'll lolhammer if given the oppurtunity as either alignment but like ... there's legit scummy and i don't want to pl today; it'll be totally unsatisfactory.

I hate the fact that I have so many scum reads because of a lack of reason to town read/lack of activity, versus having a few strong scum reads because of noticeable scum motivation.

again, this is why a pl isn't useful in this gamestate

--

Momrangal + Skitter + anyone else previously giving The Worst room to breathe: how do you read him now? That wagon fell apart on the basis of giving him more time, but we didn't really come back to re-evaluate properly. I will answer this once he answers me.

somewhere between nullscum adn scumlean. he hasn't really towntold yet imo

--

i don't understand why it's super hard to make a mom wagon a thing t

Cause there is a perfectly viable scum wagon on gamma. People trying to push a counter are suspicious

no, people ignoring that there *isn't* a counter is suspicious

ok, let's try it this way. given that you scumread them both independantly what do you think of the fact that shoshin is pushing a gamma lynch right now?

I’m ok with it. I’m the only one scum reading him apparently so I could be wrong. He also could just be bussing for town cred.

you know that shoshin voting gamma so blase-ly like that is an indicator that they aren't scum together, right?

i kinda think i'm just going to resort to my semi-townread on stungun and call it a day for now

--

WRT counter wagons,

I feel like the momrangal wagon is composed of town and people are either fully inactive or not jumping on the chance to get pressure off of gamma

, but that I haven't waited for enough people to get the opportunity to read which of those two it is. Mom is voting Bernie but most town seem to town read him plus inactivity so I see why a wagon isn't building there (yet?).

uh the wagon is me + you + bernie. i don't understand the bolded

--

In post 1401, Gamma Emerald wrote:
So thinking about it NM inactivity might be NAI? This isn't anywhere near solid fyi


following up on this with a vote on him after nauci votes there is meh

this is taking things out of context quite a bit

ok, what am i taking out of context?

--

Okay everyone saying "gamma followed nauci" can eat it. I had my own logic for my vote which I know I posted. Actually read the game tia.

yes, you had your own logic but the timing is suspect given that you hopped on the nm wagon 2 posts and 5 minutes after nauci voted there

--

Gamma, we're not lynching Shoshin today.

on re-read depeShe might look scummynding on your flip and the night flip (anyone might, honestly - I've played enough to know that no read should stay permanent when flips surprise you)

, but your vote is moot. How about some clear reads on all players? It might not stop your lynch, but if you're town it would help your win condition all the same.

If you're scum keep doing what you're doing :wink:

this pings me the wrong way

[skitter30]

I'll vote gamma at deadline over a no-lynch if i have to

i'll vote nm at deadline over a no-lynch if i have to

neither are really optimal for me

[skitter30]

this is one of those games where like everyone's scummy and i have like three townreads

[skitter30]

idk, i think it's cuz it kinda feels like you might be setting yourself up for a reads-change on shoshin on a gamma greenflip. almost like you wouldn't be surprised by a greenflip, if that makes sense? idk how to explain that better

--

i townread shoshin, bernie, and gustavo (but only because of stungun)

hardnull on math, nm

i'm kinda gut town on gamma; and gamestate supports town gamma, even though he himself is not exactly a beacon of towniness

basically everyone else is some flavor of scumlean and/or below the null line

i want to lynch mom, or failing that, at least wagon her because for the life of me i don't get why there's so much resistance to that wagon. although she just went v/la so idk if that wagoning her will produce ai content

i don't really know if i have other optimal lynches so much as everyone is scummy and i want to figure out how to read them and i'd prefer a lynch on nearly everyone below the null-line over a no-lynch

i'd prefer gamma over a no-lynch
i'd prefer nm over a no-lynch
i'd probably prefer ep over a no-lynch

[skitter30]

yes, those attempts happened *after* i pointed out the lack of a counter

[skitter30]

If nm just repped in and really didn't read anything

he might think the gamma wagon has more traction than it actually

has and decided to hop on for the cred while he can as partners.

For someone reading the game I'd prob agree with you, but that doesn't necessarily apply here.

Pedit: hi

i kinda want a mom wagon to be a thing

my gut's screaming that gamma is a mislynch.

it doesn't really feel like a wagon on scum to me

i started noting the lack of traction on the gamma wagon waaaay back here

[skitter30]

i'm pointing out that i've been talking about the incongruities with the gamma wagon for quite a while now; it doesn't make sense to claim that that hasn't been my position for a long time even though the actual phrase 'counter wagon' only showed up in my ISO an hour ago

[skitter30]

honestly i don't really have patience to argue this with you given that you apparently don't have a problem with shoshin voting gamma

[skitter30]

honestly i don't really have patience to argue this with you given that you apparently don't have a problem with shoshin voting gamma

Clearly I don’t.

That’s a stupid thing go bring up.

You just struck out.

our understandings of how to read teh gamestate differ wildly, as evidenced by your lack of reaction to shoshin's gamma vote

i'm saying that i don't see the point in having this argument given that we're starting off with different givens

[skitter30]

oh i think i misread what you meant then

interested in hearing you elaborate on when you thought you were a viable lynch candidate

[skitter30]

oh i think i misread what you meant then

interested in hearing you elaborate on when you thought you were a viable lynch candidate

It was a list of the major wagons of the game; I think I had as many as 4 people voting me at one point? Maybe 5? Idk I wasn't paying attention but people kept taking about my wagon

i guess i'm just finding it weird that you said you were a lynch candidate given that that wagon was hundreds of posts ago and i don't think you were in danger of getting lyched at any point

[skitter30]

Gamma Emerald has been lynched he was Ulysses Simpson Grant, Vanilla Townie

if only someone had spent a week shouting that this was going to be a town lynch ...

bernie, your progression from 'the wagon comp is bad and i see no scum motivation from gamma' to hammering him was gross and you have lost your townread

i'm now down to like ~3 townreads: shoshin, gustavo (provisionally because of stungun and because i think he actually believes what he's saying even tho he's wrong about everything), and nauci (because i actually see some town motivation from her; it's not a strong townread, more like there has to be town somewhere)

i'm going to start here i think

VOTE: the worst

and i am very happy to wagon mom too.

i still note that there was an *insane* amount of resistance to mom yesterday and now i'm actually proven right about the gamestate/counterwagon thing so you can't all argue something stupid like that she was scum!gamma's counterwagon

[skitter30]

also i'm wondering where that nk went but it prob oughtn't be claimed at this time

[skitter30]

also there's almost for sure scum on the gamma wagon

[skitter30]

it means that i'm annoyed that nobody listened to me yesterday

[skitter30]

becaues if i'm scum i had no reason to pick a fight against a mislynch

i'm just good at reading these sorts of gamestates (i literally think i was wrong about this sort of thing *once* and it was because all three scum were lurkers which threw me off) and i hate it when people don't listen to me and i'm right

[skitter30]

because he knows i'm good at this and he ignored me talking about the gamma thing (and he thought it had a good composition ???) and when he's town he actually listens to what i have to say and anti-mindmelding is a big warning sign

and people were semi-willing to wagon him yesterday but i literally couldn't make the mom thing a thing despite my best efforts so i see no reason why that would change today; if someone else starts a mom thing i'll join it happily

bernie went from town -> nullread and isn't like an active scumread atm and he isn't my optimal lynch right now

[skitter30]

is irrelephant actually ranmaru? because i was reading him under the assumption that he was

but he keeps posting onsite all like "wow i really love this new site!"

ranmaru literally said in my discord he was irrelephant wtf

this was literally his last post on site

voting him won't make him post things if he isn't here to see that you voted him

if he doesn't do things soonish i'd be cool with a replacement tho (

@brass?

)

[skitter30]

how on earth have you come to the conclusion that there is one scum in {me/key}?

[skitter30]

If I did anything that would signify my target is likely town on mechanics upon my flip I targeted X

If I did anything that would signify my target is likely scum on mechanics upon my flip I targeted Y

is prob the best you can do something like this

idk how successful hypoclaiming might be; idk how good people will be able to keep up the fake townread and/or scumread, which would presumably help scum sort out the relevant prs if enough people don't do it well

[skitter30]

VOTE: mom

ftr i consider irrelephant's vote suspect given that he was hard townreading her yesterday for little reason and i literally called out all of her bad interactions with the gamma wagon yesterday repeatedly

p-edit: yes, all of those

[skitter30]

my biggest reads are keyser and bernie as town.

scummy off the wagon are skitter and momrangal but I'd have to read on how they interacted with Gamma prior for specific scumminess related to being off the wagon

yes, please do so and elaborate

--

You guys have got to stop town reading math

He's promised to come back and post several times, but I'm pretty sure every time he glances over, he sees that people are oddly town reading him and decides lol I can only make it worse by posting and fucks back off

I know because I suck at scumming and that was basically how I did it. And because Math repeatedly professes to suck at being scum.

i'm not townreading him; he's hard null; i can't imagine that he's decided to stop posting everywhere on-site in order to win this game as scum; it's just not something i see him doing like ever

i think he's just busy irl

pressuring him when he isn't here to see it doesn't do anything and won't get him to post content, and brass said he'll replace him in the next couple of days if he doesn't come back

pushing him is a waste of your vote because if he's literally not here and doesn't see it voting him won't make him do anything. like that isn't an effective solution to this problem

--

he's been offsite for a few days with irl stuff

focus elsewhere nauci.

duckling you need to do the 'talk about the game' thing

--

he's been offsite for a few days with irl stuff

focus elsewhere nauci.

the way i pointed out all the problems you have with her play yesterday and you ignored them because she was on your highest tier of townreads, which you couldn't actually justify when prodded to do so

i'm slightly worried that both you and bernie jumped on her today and it makes me wonder if she's either the designated mislynch or the designated bus, although your pair of votes does seem to be indicative that the two of you (bernie and irrelephant) are probably not partners

--

But vca is a helpful tool and it is honestly just very likely that I'm write about the 2/1 split, with a possible exception in the case of lurky scum

there's almost for sure at least one scum on the wagon, and i doubt all three of them are on it

i really have no way of pinning down whether it's one or two at this time

Gamma Emerald(7) ~ Mathdino, Shoshin, Not_Mafia, Gustavo, the worst, Irrelephant11, Bernie Sanders
Momrangal(2) ~

skitter30

, Nauci
Bernie Sanders(2) ~ Keyser Söze, Momrangal
Shoshin(1) ~

Gamma Emerald

Not Voting (1): Errantparabola

although if i actual look at this and color in the flips and me it's indicative that if there's two off it's one of {errant/nauci} and one of {keyser/ mom} (ignoring my own personal reads + the fact that i don't think two scum were sitting on bernie at eod)

if we factor in my reads it points to mom + errant i think given town!nauci and scum!mom

that's my most likely guess if there's two off.

[skitter30]

Also @anyone with experience: is there precedent president for there to be > or < than 3 scum in a 13 player mini theme? Like does that happen often/happen in other brassherald games?

this is brass's first mini theme game so no mod precedent; there is precedent for !3 scum in mini themes but he said he made it as normal as possible which is indicative of standard 10:3; i wouldn't be surprised if there was an sk or something but the lack of a flip last night is indicative of there not being one

[skitter30]

Sorry, what part are we scumreading here? The way I'm voting your scumread? Or the way my read on Mom changed to match new information? (Or some third option, don't let me box you in)

the way i pointed out all the problems you have with her play yesterday and you ignored them because she was on your highest tier of townreads, which you couldn't actually justify when prodded to do so

i'm slightly worried that both you and bernie jumped on her today and it makes me wonder if she's either the designated mislynch or the designated bus, although your pair of votes does seem to be indicative that the two of you (bernie and irrelephant) are probably not partners

this was meant to be a response to the above quote; i put a quote by duckling there instead

[skitter30]

VOTE: Gustavo

i'm *pretty* sure he's town

i'm also just not reading his posts tbh right now; it's making my life easier

i'll re-evaluate later if necessary but since i don't have like any townreads i'm fine doing this for today

and yeah i have nothing to say really about the 1.5 page argument between gus, irrelephant, and nauci. i think gus is getting scumread for playstyle reasons but i'm pretty sure he isn't being duplicitous or fake; he actually believes msot of what he's saying imo even though i think it's wrong.

like it's too aggressively stubborn to come from scum imo

i don't think arguing with him is going to actually like accomplish anything or make him change his mind and/or playstyle

--

I think gamma played awful here ad made it very hard to read him and I even can usually reliably sort him (though towards the end, it was partially a matter that he was claimed VT and I was slightly worried of an certain outside risk of deadline flash wagon momrangal VLA even if I scumread her more).

i still think your progression from acknowledging the many warning signs about the wagon and stating that you don't think anything he was doing had scum motivation to hammering him was atrocious

--

I was probably the n2 NK target

i mean, timetraveling seems to be a pretty neat ability for a mafia game, so do tell

i really kinda doubt you were the nk target last night tbh

--

"Skittz and NSG should know why I don't like Gem"
Citing Skittz and NSG to back up his (meta?) suspicion of Gamma.

gem is gemini (duckling), not gamma; he was talking about newbie 1872 which i played with gemini and math and nsg was apparently following; i know nothing about gamma and don't think i've ever played with im before

--

Well I feel like I was obviously talking to the people who did town read him so lol I don't think that was necessary

I was kinda vote parking while I figured out which stone I wanted to check under

Here seems decent while I still don't have time to catch up

VOTE: the worst

ok we can do this too

VOTE: the worst

--

okay, so basically all of my reasons for not liking you or Mom were detailed in my ISO and I know you asked me about what I meant about dancing around your scumreads but I really dont want to go back and figure out what i was talking about. It was def an error on my part for not being more specific but, uh, let's just say we're cool in that department and call it even. yeah. shrug

i mean, ok?

--

@scum please for the love of god push a better wagon
I have a bit of a theory forming but I'm sad ;(

you've done literally nothing townie since replacing in

[skitter30]

yikes there's prolly 2 scum on my wagon

pushing a cw this hard makes me think Mom is probably the third

oh ffs

who, pray tell, are the two scum on your wagon? your options are me, nauci, and errant. this also isn't exactly a hard counterwagon

also you do realize that i was scumreading her yesterday for being gamma's counterwagon, and when i pointed that out repeatedly, you persisted in townreading her, so using this exact same reasoning to scumread her today when you happen to be the counterwagon is sketchy as fuck

--

Alright, fine. Gustavo is town.

VOTE: Skitter

because ... ?

[skitter30]

also i just wish to say i got post 1776 in american presidents mafia

[skitter30]

Shoshin what are your thoughts on the worst and the ppl voting him

Skitter's vote was pretty bad.

because ... ?

--

BlackVoid replaces Mathdino.

hi hi hi

super happy you repped in

--

She's town because she shaded you when you joined her on Mom? That reasoning doesn't make much sense. Why is her instinct to shade someone who agrees with her? If anything, wouldn't that suggest that she had no conviction in Mom flipping scum?

because i don't understand why he's scumreading her now for a whole slew of things that i pointed out yesterday that he ignored then. like if he finds these things in mom's play scummy when he looks through them today i don't understand why he didn't find them scummy yesterday.

I definitely feel like I let Mom go easy after finding a couple reasons to townread her D1

right, this is exactly what i'm having a problem with

It's not suspect to reevaluate reads after a flip (if anything, the opposite) so it's odd that Skitter would call you out for reevaluating Mom in the opening stages of D2. And I'm especially concerned about that analysis because she agrees with the conclusion you came to. It's just hard to imagine a townie suspecting you for that.

i find it suspect because he ignored the scummy actions yesterday when i was trying to get a mom wagon going and handwaved them away by saying 'i townread her' and that's one of the main reasons why the mom wagon didn't take place

given that gamma flipped town i don't understand why there would be *soooooo* much resistance to town!mom's wagon yesterday; i couldn't get it to have more than three votes at any given time.

i very much think that gamma was a cw to someone and i'm suspicious of people who couldn't and/or wouldn't vote her yesterday for ill-defined reasons - irrelephant fits that bill. i don't get why things that were not sketchy yesterday to him he finds sketchy today.

--

i think i'm going to try to read you by seeing how much we mindmeld

posts from after you catchup will count more than posts made during your catchup because i'm incredibly paranoid and i don't know how much of my posting you read before replacing in and we talked about how you'd play scum in that hydra game

so far good signs in a general sense tho

--

"I'm still really not feeling the notion that the Gamma wagon is on town. :/"
TW also disliking skitter's idea that this wagon looks like a wagon town.

ftr, this is a bad sign because we tend to mindmeld as tvt and he knows that i have a *very* good sense of this sort of thing

[skitter30]

VOTE: The worst
I think mom-TW then probably N_M, if not then BV/math slot. Mom tw have to die though.
I was going to hard insist mom today actually but 1746 is legitimately scummy from duck here.
FTR vla should only stop a wagon d1 because it's about content/pressure then. I kind of just want flip now.

i don't want the day to end before bv catches up btw

i don't think that 1746 is that scummy tbh

--

ftr, this is a bad sign because we tend to mindmeld as tvt and he knows that i have a *very* good sense of this sort of thing

this is a bad sign because I have a feeling you can immitate this kind of thing as scum,

and I had literally no success in working out where you were coming from on this angle.. :/

i have no idea if faking this sort of thing is in my scumrange or not tbh

the following is what was bothering me with the wagon. i'm not entirely sure what else you're trying to say by the bolded.

Spoiler:

it feels very ... complacent to me, i geuss is a good word? math's been on there for like a week, i only townread two people on it (shoshin + bernie, i guess provisionally gustavo too), it feels like it's inevitable almost? there's like nobody complaining about it except me and it just ... doesn't feel right to me.

like basically all the active people support it and half the wagon is comprised of inactive people (bernie, nm) and/or people who don't really understand the current gamestate (math, nm), and one person on it is pushing it despite the fact that his biggest scumread is on it (gustavo) and i've asked him to talk more about it like twice now and he hasn't responded to that, which makes me doubt his ability to understand wagonomics.

like it just doesn't feel like a good wagon to me. like the only vote that i don't particularly have a problem with is shoshin's.

like it just feels like a compromise by people who i don't think have the knowledge required to make that decision, if that makes sense.

--

Ironically I feel like my reads are being brushed off unfairly. If you're town having a hissy fit and saying I'm in your shit list really doesn't help me correct them dude.

like if you just think I'm a garbo player perhaps you're subtly asking me to rep out? or do you think you have spewed your alignment here? I don't see where you actually think my stance is unjust?

i'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say with these posts tbh. or who you're talking to? are you talking to me?

--

I'm probably gonna sheep BV on Skitter.

math's probably better, but bv has a pretty strong track record too i think in recent months

[skitter30]

i was thinking more that she has nothing interesting to say about the fact that she was wagoned while she was gone, but same idea

[skitter30]

i don't want the day to end before bv catches up btw

i don't think that 1746 is that scummy tbh

You spent yesterday commenting about me and my interaction with gamma. I still think you're looking at my waffle post regarding him in a vacuum and iirc thats where the bulk of your suspicions come from regarding me.

What are your thoughts on Bernie though? I made a case on him yesterday, and what key posted shows him starting the same behaviour he had around me and gamma. Why do you think hes hard pushing me but clearly going after another target?

my problems with you are:

a) being waffle-y about the gamma wagon and i still don't know why you think i took that out of context

b) there's a lot of mysterious townreads on you that i can't get anyone to explain satisfactorily

c) you were gamma's counterwagon and i couldn't get the wagon to have more than three votes - it faced an *insane* amount of resistance and nobody could explain why

d) you've done like nothing townie the whole game

bernie's around ~nulltown right now. i think he was hard-pushing you but going after someone else since you were v/la; that's one of the main reasons why i moved my vote off of you last week but i'm prob moving it back now that you're back

i have to recheck your bernie case; i don't remember it offhand; let me check

[skitter30]

i was thinking more that she has nothing interesting to say about the fact that she was wagoned while she was gone, but same idea

I literally said bernie hammered gamma because he was worried about me being flash wagoned while i was V/LA and pushed for it before i could come back from it.

i think i misunderstood what you meant by that paragraph. i thought you were talking about the day1 wagon, not today's wagon. apologies.

[skitter30]

mom i'm kinda confused why i'm the person you're reaching out to talk about bernie right now tbh. like if you have trouble with bernie idk why you aren't talking to him about it

also i'm assuming you're talking about 794?

a) i think this post is kinda out-of-date; like it's from two weeks ago and doesn't really address like anything recent and thus isn't such a major factor to me either way

b) i kinda feel like that post is almost less about casing bernie and more about defending duck? i talked about htis post before, and i said you felt kinda self-righteous-y in it

c) ignoring the gamma hammer i generall agree with this reads and like i agree with his both his approach to the duck and to you

d) also i said this back when you posted it about the following:

Further more, this case on duck came when after duck said he wouldn't have any time to defend himself, and after duck is at a vulnerable L-2 (1?) position making it completely viable that duck gets lynched before he even had more time to get himself busy.

this bit is kinda inaccurate to me since the wagon only got up to L-3 at that point

--

Why?

Bernie? 133, 135, 141, 142, 173, and 174 are all pretty townie. As i said before, I especially liked the way that he joined me on Stun but then switched onto Invis becuase he couldn't keep up the farce of voting someone he didn't actually find scummy. The entirety of that sequence of posts felt very town. And following those early posts, there's been a very natural thought process and a lot of progression in his reads, as seen in 187, 266, 323, 375, 388.

I can see where you're coming from with this, but as far as his early interaction with you regarding stun and invis, I think you may be giving him to much credit as far as progression goes.

I do agree that 388 is a solid post. But I feel like a large majority of them are kinda just sitting in the middle and when he does take a stance he does this weird "eh what do I know thing" like in post 375 . He also did it in 323 when pushing Dino, making it feel like he's subliminally excusing himself from taking responsibility from anything that happened. Making it easier to brush it off as oversight or some othet thing. Something I see scum do constantly, something I'm always noting (like I did in implos large game as well in a few games in my old account).

It's subtle tell that people have thought me crazy to point out but has outstanding accuracy.

unless you meant this post instead?

i don't really get this vibe from him tbh, that he's fence-sitting or trying to not take responsiblity

[skitter30]

VOTE: The worst
I think mom-TW then probably N_M, if not then BV/math slot. Mom tw have to die though.
I was going to hard insist mom today actually but 1746 is legitimately scummy from duck here.
FTR vla should only stop a wagon d1 because it's about content/pressure then. I kind of just want flip now.

i think she was saying that this post was you pushing for a flip on her but focusing on tw isntead of her? otherwise i'm not really sure what she's talking about

also she was v/la and i don't have a problem with like ... not pressuring someone on v/la

[skitter30]

This doesnt read fence sitty at all?

i mean, i guess a little because he doesn't come to a firm conclusion? but it's a post from like weeks ago and like 1500 posts ago and in general i have a pretty good sense of where he's holding and i don't in general get the vibe that he's like leaving himself room to change his mind.

--

I need to know where you stand regarding him though so i know how hard i need to work to convince you to vote with me to get my desired lynch.

Also yeah, said post was the case and key (possibly inadvertently) made it more likely its the case.

Also what i am saying is this.

Yesterday, bernie hammered gamma and i thought i saw the reason for it being something about me being flash lynched while V/LA yesterday.

Today, knowing im V/LA he makes a push for it before i even come back from said V/LA

ok, more specifically what i'm confused by is that i've been telegraphing that i was probably going to vote for you when you came back so i don't really get why you think:

a) i'm going to be voting with you to vote bernie

b) my stance differs that much from bernie's that you want me to vote him over it

like i don't recall anyone making a serious proposition to flashwagon you while v/la tbh. yes a few people voted you while you were gone (i was one of them even) today and eod yesterday but like i don't think the intent was to lynch you before you came back or anything

[skitter30]

As it turns out Skitter has actually tried to “told you so” a lot more about Gamma’s lynch than Nauci. So switch Skitter and Nauci in my earlier vca reads

i apparently get really really annoyed and frustrated when i'm right and people don't listen to me; feel free to ask tw for reference

VOTE: skitter30, you said EOD1 you lost your townread on nauci, then later said you townread Nauci because “there’s gotta be town somewhere”. What happened in between those reads?

are you like voting me cuz i switched my read on her?

also are you even paying attention to context?

actually i reconsider my take on the lack of opposition to the gamma thing; nauci, if gamma ever flips scum that's a gross post and you're my first bet for a partner

specifically i'm considered that the first time you brought up this take is *after* i made a thing about it, and that you've been pushing the gamma and/or his wagon for a while now despite not joining it

like how do you just now decide 'at a glance i find the lack of a counter wagon' possibly disturbing; you literally just had a thing about people's voting patterns, and nm has been on the wagon for like three irl days now.

either way, i just lost the townread; i'm down to like ~3 now

it was because of this that i lost the townread; i was suspicous of her for voicing her suspicions wrt gamma just like i did; i was kinda worried that if she was scum with gamma she was piggy-backing on my objections to stall the lynch on her partner

gamma flipped town so that was kinda a moot point for scumreading her

she hasn't done anything actively scummy imo and nearly everyone else is scummier so she's like provisionally town because there has to be town

[skitter30]

Hey BV, I like your catchup posts quite a bit. One very important question for you, why is Skitter town?

I'm trying to think of how best to explain it since there's a pretty big meta component here. To put it succinctly, she's a lot more persistent about pushing reads and gamesolving when she's town. I don't have first hand experience with her scumgame but from the few games I've read, she can fake analytical-looking posts to a certain extent but there's a lack of drive to keep pushing, finding answers and solving the game. As scum, she sometimes has a tendency to get a bit lurkish/burn out from the effort. In her towngames, it doesn't feel like it's a chore for her to keep churning out more content. She can just keep going until she gets to the bottom of whatever she's pushing. Since you're into reading previous games, take a glance through some of skitter's scum games and I think you'll get what I'm talking about. They are several months old but the mindset still holds. She prefers playing town over scum and this game, she's

well

out of her scumrange.

^^^^^

or TLDR I can semi-fake analysis but I can't really fake being stubborn or aggressive

(aside, I think that scum!you townreads town!me most of the time given that first newbie)

--

TheWorst's actual posting didn't make any impression on me. A lot of the one-liner type stuff feels like things he could post as either alignment and I have a hard time reading people who employ the conversational one-liner style without deeper analysis. I think he's more likely than not scum through POE.

He can towntell pretty hard with this playstyle. He just hasn't this game

--

The bolded is super weird because you're the one reading into her replace out. You're also very charitable towards TheWorst which makes me not feel good because you're both in my POE pool and you're stretching pretty hard to defend him. I dislike your Bernie and Nauci pushes as well.

wrt 809, now that I think about it, I don't think Gemini gave an in-thread explanation for repping out - like mom specified that it was for irl reasons when gemini didn't say anything of the sort

--

I noticed that too but my impression was that they wanted to swing momentum onto another viable-looking wagon as an alternative to TheWorst. I didn't like how Momrangal defended both Irrelephant and TheWorst and pushed their attackers and tried to get a wagon going elsewhere.

315 also doesn't really feel like a partner-vote to me, and i'm uncertain if both scum jump on the emerging nauci wagon one right after the other, but there's *quite* a few signs pointing to partners despite this

also keep an eye on the gamma wagon composition when you get there; I'd like to know what you think about it

--

Bv if you have specific questions for me can you please ask them succinctly in clear English without answering your own question with your own opinions

and preferably in their own short posts so I read them

like rn I'm reading maybe 1/10 of your posts and praying to the mafia gods that you eat a nk or get copped so I don't have to sort you

aside, kinda wondering why this isn't your reaction to my posting most of the time

he's catching up and i don't think this is busywork; it's fairly in-line with how town!him usually analyzes games, and I think it's quite insightful

--

holy mother of busywoek

if the cop isn't on BVslot they should be embarrassed

BV's very obviously town here.

I wouldn't go *quite* that far yet tbh. He's definitely trending towards town but I'm not ready to locktown him just yet.

He's very insightful as town, but as scum can fake that sort of analysis pretty well, especially when he can see what townread people had said previously and can moderate his opinions to match - that's why I'm waiting for him to catch up because I think it would be a bit harder for scum!him to do that in real-time.

--

TW get in here.

tbf it is middle of the night in his timezone

[skitter30]

Okay, so here's what I'm thinkin about Mom.
a) isn't scummy. b) isn't scummy.
c) is a salient point here, I think? d) i agree with a lot, ESPECIALLY in context with her response to pressure today

b) is perplexing in the context of c) - the mysterious townreads are part of why i couldn't get that wagon to happen yesterday

--

do me a favor and give me the fast rundown on these?

a) mom's weird defense of tw from way back when 794

b) both of them starting a counterwagon on nauci just as tw's wagon was getting high

c) earlier in the game was very hedge-y wrt his read on her 646 and pretty much the next time he mentioned her he had one of those mysterious townreads 1366 because she was defending him when he was getting wagoned. like 1369 is :/ and was very against wagoning her and was just not willing to change his read or reconsider it when i was trying to wagon her 1379. and then he declared himself to be mom's cw 1777 and that since scum were apparently pushing his wagon so hard, she must be scum too (and he felt this reasoning wasn't valid yesterday when I was pointing out that gamma's wagon was quite possibly her counter). and now mom is in his lynchpool and she was v/la i think between declaring her town and putting her in his lynchpool. like i really don't understand this progression tbh

d) and mom has just been hard-defending him like all game and is going after bernie for scumreading him and trying to wagon him for pushing both tw and mom

i'm still entertaining the theory that she's white-knighting tw tho

[skitter30]

VOTE: mom

i don't know what number vote that is, i think ~3 maybe

[skitter30]

yes, very much so

[skitter30]

ftr i haven't actually played with scum!him but i've skimmed a few of his scumgames

[skitter30]

ftr i haven't actually played with scum!him but i've skimmed a few of his scumgames

Where have you seen him do something similar as scum?

i was vaguely following along with this one

viewtopic.php?p=10167187#p10167187

[skitter30]

ftr i haven't actually played with scum!him but i've skimmed a few of his scumgames

Where have you seen him do something similar as scum?

i was vaguely following along with this one

viewtopic.php?p=10167187#p10167187

That specific post you just quoted should clear BV as town here.

why?

[skitter30]

idk.

i'm tending town but i don't feel comfortable locktowning him just yet

[skitter30]

keyser, is english your first language? Your posts feel very ... cage-y or put-upon or artificial maybe? Idk what the right word is exactly but they feel kinda off in a general sense. Or like affected is maybe a good word?

your posts don't feel very real to me. idk how to explain that better right now.

Idk why moving duckling is a problem for you?

I didn't give nsg a read. 'null' is not a read. I don't know where to put you; you're unsorted, by which I mean there's things I like (your early game observations), and things I don't like (tonally you feel really really really off). unsorted != null.

he hasn't really done anything to change this impression basically

like tonally he feels weird and he like summarizes a lot and expects other people to come to conclusions for him almost? i said somewhere earlier that he almost feels like he's narrating a discussion between two other parties when there's conflict without really coming to his own conclusion. but idk if that's how usually plays as town or scum without doing a whole meta thing that i really doubt i'm going to do in the nearish future; i'm kinda prioritizing the actively scummy people right now

[skitter30]

Also skitter you were right I wasn't considering context with your read of Nauci, I was mostly skimming your EOD1 and that just stuck out to me.

yes, and this is the second time you've voted me without actually paying attention to the context of what i'm saying

like the things you've been voting me for don't actually match up to what i'm doing

[skitter30]

like tonally he feels weird and he like summarizes a lot and expects other people to come to conclusions for him almost? i said somewhere earlier that he almost feels like he's narrating a discussion between two other parties when there's conflict without really coming to his own conclusion. but idk if that's how usually plays as town or scum without doing a whole meta thing that i really doubt i'm going to do in the nearish future; i'm kinda prioritizing the actively scummy people right now

I don't think you need meta to see how scummy this is. His posts are fake, he's narrating instead of analyzing, his vote on Mom was convictionless, he didn't want to vote Gamma despite suspecting him, and his interpretations in 414 and 547 betray an informed perspective.

What makes Mom scummier?

it could be a playstyle thing tho, that's the thing; i'm saying idk without doing a metaread that realistically i doubt i'm going to do in the next couple of days; maybe i'll do it if i get bored but right now i'm just not feeling motivated enough to do a meta-analysis thing based on completely cold meta because i don't think i've played any games with him or even spectated any games he was in so i'd have to start completely from scratch. like without doing that idk if he just posts that way or if he's scummy, and i'll eventually get around to checking at some point

i don't think either 414 or 547 belie an informed perspective, although they're icky for other reasons. (narrating a debate without offering personal analysis and misrepping me respectively)

his progression on gamma is meh, his vote on mom is meh

i don't think he's scummier than mom tho - some of his posts are in fact townie and indicate that he's thinking about the game

i really know nothing about mom's pov besides for defending duck and wanting to wagon bernie for pushing her/duck. she's done nothing townie all game, and i don't now who she thinks is scum or why. her interaction with me yesterday was weird - my POV is fairly similar to bernies wrt her and duck so approaching me to wagon bernie with her is just ???

like i just don't understand what she's trying to do and i don't see her thinking about the game at all in a way that makes sense to me. keyser is at least efforting and posting readable content that can be used to sort him

[skitter30]

Also skitter you were right I wasn't considering context with your read of Nauci, I was mostly skimming your EOD1 and that just stuck out to me.

yes, and this is the second time you've voted me without actually paying attention to the context of what i'm saying

like the things you've been voting me for don't actually match up to what i'm doing

I'm having trouble sorting you/am paranoid about you
sorry bout it

like i get that you're having trouble sorting me but the problem i'm having is the things you're using to vote me don't actually make sense in context or if you're actually trying to understand my POV

Hey the worst when you're around can you speak to Skitter being frustrated about being right and unheard (in this case about Gamma's wagon, but she says it's a common thing for her)?

read from there till the end, have fun, game just ended yesterday (incidentally that game features yet another example where i was right about the day1 wagon being on town and nobody listening to me and there being a mislynch anyways)

viewtopic.php?p=10305994#p10305994

[skitter30]

i mean, just because they don't make sense from a town perspective doesn't mean that it only makes sense from the perspective of someone who knows the alignments of the players he's talking about

i really don't see that interpretation of that post at all; i just don't see the implication that math must be town from his post there

p-edit: i think that mom may have been gamma's counterwagon given the general resistance and idk how you can make a general statemetn of 'it's not like there was a counterwagon on scum'; town doesn't know that either way right now

[skitter30]

you really think you were the kill last night and that a doc saved you?

i honestly find that incredibly unlikely

[skitter30]

i don't think any of this not-linking-scumgames thing is like remotely AI

like yeah i agree there's no town motivation not to do it - but there's literally no scum motivation either

[skitter30]

it's something readily availible for you to look up though, it's not like if he doesn't answer the question you can't find the information or something. like you don't need his answer to find out that info

i don't think that has scum motivation (yes i'm aware it also doesn't have town motivation), i think he's just annoyed with you.

there are other things he's done that are meh but i don't think this particular thing is AI

i don't want to get distracted from tw/mom

[skitter30]

holy mother of busywoek

if the cop isn't on BVslot they should be embarrassed

I mean, the fact that you said he ought to be cop-checked implies to me that you think he has reasonable scum equity.

When you're back from the job please explain how me/nauci/mom make sense together

[skitter30]

holy mother of busywoek

if the cop isn't on BVslot they should be embarrassed

I mean, the fact that you said he ought to be cop-checked implies to me that you think he has reasonable scum equity.

When you're back from the job please explain how me/nauci/mom make sense together

I think you know me well enough to know I'm not gonna case that. it's all in my ISO.

have we never spoken about my cop philosophy? because that's not correct. If not I'll discuss post-game.

so, just to clarify, your understanding of the gamestate is that me/nauci are partners and decided to work together to hardbus our third partner, mom, and to get you lynched?

we've never talked about your cop philosophy, no; we can talk about it post-game if you like

--

rest up BV

^^^^

--

Irrelephant, I don't understand how your Key scumread suddenly disappeared...

i'm more interested in why two people with mysterious townreads on mom yesterday (tw and irrelephant) are now voting her

[skitter30]

Skitter, what do you make of the way Key went from scumreading Mom to townreading today?

probably not partner-indicative; it's a very odd trajectory for a partner to take on scum!mom given the gamestate

--

Sidenote: finding Mom scummy D1 for her interactions with Gamma without knowing his alignment is actually kind of weird?

it wasn't solely her interactions with gamma (although i feel like she was egging on that wagon without committing to it); so much as the gamestate was pointing to town!gamma given the sheer amount of resistance to any counterwagons. it's more like the other way around that what you said above - people's interactions with the gamma wagon was pointing to town!gamma, and less than town!gamma made other people's interactions with the wagon sketchy

--

Like, it makes sense for people who scumread Gamma to reevaluate their reads, because Gamma flipped town. But it's not so clear why Key's reevaluating in the way he is when he townread Gamma...

I’m not town reading Mom, but my will to kill her today has weakened.

I agree that Mom’s interactions/comments on Gamma D1 is likely to get them lynched today.

I think Mom should roleclaim now.

this is kinda premature tbh; gamma was given time to claim when he had intent and wasn't lynched 'quickly'; nm can't lolhammer from L-2

p-edit: i'm kinda confused about you moving to tw here after this

--

This is a town post
A big town post
I guess he doesn't want to reveal his main which is... fine

he's rask; he outed it after i guessed it somewhere in the 400's i think

[skitter30]

i cant wait for mom and the worst to both inexplicably flip town and for us to lose the game

idk if they're both scum together but i'm having a lot of trouble putting together a cohrent sense of the gamestate if they're both town

[skitter30]

because he's inextricably tying himself to her if she flips scum given that he defended her at this critical time, and if he's scum he knows that she'll flip scum too so defending her as her wagon builds is just a way to make himself suspicious tomorrow

i don't think scum do that knowing that the other person will flip scum most of the time when there's a fairly decent chance the flip will happen soonish

if mom is town key's scum equity increases drastically; it's a kinda gross progression from scum!key on town!mom

[skitter30]

ep that post is hilarious

--

Priorities for me are evaluating, in this order, momrangal, bv, errant, tw, Shoshin, Irrelephant unless Keyser/Skitter have suggestions

mom > tw > irrelephant > errant > bv

i'm not super worried about bv or errant atm

--

Also I just want to say Keyser townreads me like just so easily all game, and it really doesn't feel like he's had to work for it? Suggests he knows I'm town.

On another note, Mom's ISO doesn't look suddenly *super scummy* in retrospect (I still see the things I townread her for as slightly towny), but she's nullscum at best for her thoughts on Gamma, her entrance today, and her lurkiness after returning from V/LA. Curious to hear her reads.

i still don't understand your mom progression.

i'm kinda wondering if scum would once again reverse this read and call attention to it given how scrutinized this read has been tho

also i don't really see the keyser-knowing-you're-town-thing

--

LOL what? In the post you linked, Momrangal shaded your biggest rock-solid townread that you vouched for (Bernie) and talked about how he's pushing you for a mislynch. T

his is one of the scummiest posts in the game.

yeah i remember that post as pinging me kinda bad; i don't remember if i made a thing about it at the time tho

--

@Skitter, I'll summarize thoughts on the Gamma lynch here since you asked. It didn't change my reads much. I still find Irrelephant/TheWorst scummy and

am thinking Momrangal is potentially a scum wagon that didn't go through.

But that's me saying that nothing rules out this existing scumread as opposed to developing a new one. I think Not_Mafia's and Gustavo's vote are both pretty bad but Gustavo's isn't bad enough to outweigh my stungun townread and Not_Mafia/Invisibility is in a null spot for me. I wish Errantparabola was made to take a stance and put a vote down.

yeah i was basically wondering if you thought the mom wagon was a wagon on scum.

nm's vote was bad but nm-like so i'm doubting if it's ai

gustavo's was meh but kinda makes sense with ihs personality, if that makes sense? like i think he's just wrong/bad town

--

So, you already know about father-son president pairs, but did you know that one grandson of a former president was elected? Benjamin Harrison was William Henry Harrison's grandson.

i was going to post that fact but forgot

[skitter30]

I didn't realize that the TW wagon fell apart long before I was even paranoid about ending the day too early and unvoting.

Skitter, Irrelephant, Errant, BS: Did you move because your <current vote target> is scummier than tw to you, or because you town read something(s) tw post?

i don't townread like anything he posted; i'm thinking of moving back there

i moved iirc because mom was around and acting scummy and there was more momentum for a mom wagon than a tw wagon

--

it's really obvious gamestate stuff that I'm sure I've already talked about???

i was a conspicuous cw to mom here.
the fact that {you, skitter, mom} actively read like scumbuddies is like, a fucking honeypot fmpov.
you're also both weakly shading me, ignoring my reads and really clumsily positioning me for a mislynch

I am not easy to mislynch, even if I am kinda only half engaged with this game. sorry to disappoint you but i'm not going to roll over and take this shit.

again, you realize that me/nauci/mom is honestly an asinine understanding of the gamestate, right?

i pointed out why already a couple of days ago, but you're basically saying that scum!me and scum!nauci decided to team up to hard-bus our third partner (and at eod both of us were voting her and all three of us were off-wagon?)

and that we're teaming up to push you?

i really don't believe you think this tbh

pulling the 'obviouis cw to mom' is stupid when you shot down me making that argument yesterday. i'm paying attention to your reads, but i don't respect them because the trajectories make like no sense, and i keep telling you that

and i'm not weakly shading you; i'm actively telling you i want to lynch you; i'm ambivalent between you and mom but posts like this tilt me more towards you

huh i just realized something about the setup potentially that i don't want to share right now.

--

I guess maybe I should have done my homework on how many damn essays this game would produce but like most of the list isn't spewing massive NAI wallposts rife with wonky questions and then having a tantrum because they're not being townread over it. :/

am i in this group?

--

Ill only vote you/skittle/elephant today.

I am out of snacks and would appreciate if you stopped summoning a craving for Skittles.

(I'll assume that you cased Skitter in the 10 pages I haven't read yet, for now.)

lol no that hasn't happened

--

I'm going to hard pull the BoP card and ask people to stop speccing PR and NK stuff anymore today, and I think I have to insist on mom today over duck. Nauci irrelephant I'm sorry but despite the meta thing I think my experience makes my judgment here more reliable.

i was probably going to swtich back to tw after this post, but eh sure. i'm really ambivalent between the two of them

--

Ugh, been in a depression rutt sorry about that

i'm sorry, that sucks, i hope you feel better soon

--

ebwop UNVOTE: lol

if she doesn't post more and you don't revote her, this is an icky unvote

--

I don't want this day ending until BV is caught up.

I'm no longer townreadnig him because his catch up is taking way longer than it should.

he gets busy irl sometimes with work. i don't think it's ai; i think he's catching up as he can

wasn't the original reason you townread him due to some really apparent meta read? Is the length of time that he's taking enough to invalidate that?

Nah, the original reason is because I liked the nuance in his posts. But Skitter brought up a valid point about how it's easier to fake that sort of posting when you're catching up rather than playing in real time, and now it feels like he's stalling by taking forever to catch up.

i don't think he's stalling.

--

Not majoring in anything (dropped out of Carnegie Mellon Computer Science ages ago).

I'm in a programming bootcamp 10 hours a day with 3-6 hours of homework, and I've been trying to catch up on sick days. Missing one day is like missing several weeks of a class at college

bleh, good luck

--

viewtopic.php?t=72324&f=53&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go
replaces into 104 page game, skips catchup to skim and goes for game impact
Alternating 9p he did it kinda all at once though it did take him many hours that day

viewtopic.php?t=72854&f=50&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go
here deadline is very soon on his replace so he crams and mostly just reads ISOs of wagons (because game impact is important)

BV what say yee?

i was in the second one; i'm going to point to newbie 1797. he replaced in early-mid day2 i think and we basically had someone who scum-claimed and i kept stalling hammer because i wanted bv to catch up; he didn't really over day2 and most of his day2 posts were saying 'i'll catch up tomorrow etc'. and i thought it was scum/partner-indicative. he caught up over the first week of day3 (he did also interact in real time a bit more there). we got into a walling 1v1 thing. i lynched him. he flipped town.

it took him like two irl weeks to fully catchup there.

i was also in a hydra with him (we didn't rep in; we started at the beginning of the game) and i was basically the main poster for i think most of day1 because he was too busy to play; he eventually caught up but if i wasn't posting he'd have done the 'catching up soon bit' thing too because he didn't really have time to play. we were town

[skitter30]

@bv (spoilered for length):

Spoiler:

@Skitter, is TheWorst usually capable of reading you accurately? He doesn't seem to realize that you're town here and I'm trying to figure out whether it's alignment-indicative. How well/deeply does he normally read you?

i think this is the fourth game we've played together:

math's stack-the-deck - we were both town, and mind-melded pretty easily. he townread me pretty fast and started sheeping me a lot. iirc i was paranoid that he was trying to buddy me via sheeping

Subject: ♥ ♠ Open 711: Stack The Deck - Game Over ♣ ♦

I detest being a sheep but Skitter is speaking right into my soul. If it's between Una/Srceen Una is the correct player to pressure at this point.

Subject: ♥ ♠ Open 711: Stack The Deck - Game Over ♣ ♦

Skitter I am sheeping a little while I don't feel like I can be strongly influential. Also I think you're town which makes you v easy to gravitate towards.

brass's pick your poison open - both town, iirc mindmelded pretty easily although i got slightly tunneled on him at the end of day1 and kinda accidentally talked people out of lynching scum cuz i was pr reading him so the townread kinda degraded, but look at the early-game posts

Subject: Open 721: Pick Your Poison (Game Over)

Doing good thanks.

skitter do you have any scum meta? thinking back to Math's Stack the Deck you're too easy a townread for me.

Subject: Open 721: Pick Your Poison (Game Over)

well

as I said I like skitter so far, she skittered well considering her last post was on page 3.
I also think she has good instincts so far--hit me up if you aren't picking up what I'm putting down here.

Subject: Open 721: Pick Your Poison (Game Over)

Yo skitter30! Either we are mind melding again or youre pocketing me!

Thoughts on Sajj, Sunsh and the other duckling?

Subject: Open 721: Pick Your Poison (Game Over)

I

Other reason I am concerned about confbias--I will give townreads too easily for people based on their stances. If I'm wrong this means I run the risk of townblocking scum.

For example atm I am townreading the fuck out of skitter but I am passively aware of the fact scum!skitter pockets me here every time.

latest iteration of jungle republic, which just ended - we were both town - i kinda tunneled him day1 and tried to get him lynched and he scumread me in retaliation, but in my defense he was purposefully trying to anti-mind-meld and be tonally off since he was the one and only pr and was trying to be scummy enough to not get nk'd. he got a guilty n1 and i incidentally started day2 casing his guilty and trying to get him to vote him with me so he claimed the guilty at which point we worked together pretty well

so yeah that's why i'm finding his trajectory on me to be ????

i guess the one thing that's throwing me off is that it would be probably easier for him as scum to just townread me and pocket me? i don't think scum!him thinks he can like actually lynch me here and there's a very good chance i can get *him* lynched so purposefully scumreading me doesn't really have a lot of scum motivation for him tbh

unless he's just trying to brush off my scumread of him by telling me i must be wrong and scum - when i'm tunneled town!him usually tells me i'm either tunneled or scum - he tried to pull that line here but given that he's telling me i'm scum pushing him i don't think he actually believes that

(somethign else to say maybe about tw in jungle republic a little later; don't think it's expedient to get into this right now)

--

I don't think there's any way Skitter, Shoshin, or Bernie are flipping scum here. I think most of that sentiment holds true for Gustavo as well but I'm wary because I was spectating a game where he was scum against Shoshin. He acted so confident that Shoshin was flipping scum to the point where continuous analysis was useless and I remember thinking he could be a conf-biased townie. But combined with Stungun's very town posting, I'm more willing to throw Gustavo in the townpile here.

i'm somewhere around

{shoshin}
{gustavo}
{you, bernie}
{}
{nauci}
{nm, errant} - null - can't read nm and i don't really think errant's done much AI either way
{irrelephant, keyser} - upon a mom townflip keyser goes way down
{}
{mom}
{tw}

although shoshin and gustavo are my highest townreads i really don't trust their reads at all whatsoever and i'm kinda tuning them out tbh because i don't think arguing with either of them will get me anywhere right now

i also don't know anything about rask or his scumrange but i'm *slightly* paranoid of him

--

I really want to put Nauci in that group as well. I also felt like her reads make sense generally. The reason I don't feel as confident is that I have the feeling that Nauci is the type of player who can replicate most of what she does as town as scum so I have hard time finding anything and saying this is definitely town and there's no chance she's scum the way I can for Rask (who admits to having an average at best scumgame), or Shoshin or Skitter.

There's a lot of effort, yeah. But there's also a lot of things I could see good scum doing that I don't think are as useful/helpful for town. Like that extensive voting analysis.

I also think she's overstating how much she and Skitter are mindmelding. They both have different playstyles and ways of approaching reads. Skitter is significantly more logic based for instance that I can't help wondering if she's scum buddying.

this is basically what i feel wrt nauci, especially the bolded

I also don't think his arguments for any of his pushes or townreads are strong at all (I've commented on what I didn't like in my catchup). I felt like based on that game, if he were town here, he'd be posting at least something that would resonate with me. He does have scumreads but they often keep changing in ways that I can't really get behind the thought process underlying them and there's an element of following the crowd.

i'm getting the same vibe too - he feels very ... mercurial is a good word. he just lacks convcition about like everything; his votes keep changing and i don't really understand why; his read trajectories are really ???? and i can't really follow what he's thinking easily

Don't have it in me to ISO anyone right now, but I've made my stance clear on BS and (despite his saying otherwise) he's been my focus for today.

The only thing he's gotten right is the fact that I'm not voting him mostly because I'm just one vote

i hope things get better for you soon :)

i'm not entirely sure why you don't vote him anyways tbh. it's not like you have any bigger scumreads

FTR vla should only stop a wagon d1 because it's about content/pressure then. I kind of just want flip now.

Also, Skitter Bernie admitted right here that he was aiming to push me to lynch and that my V/la means fuck all

yes but we stopped pushing that yesterday because you weren't here and i agree that wagoning someone v/la is kinda pointless and *strongly* disagree with lynching someone v/la or mia or an empty slot that can't claim or defend itself, i don't really have a problem with wagoning someone shortly before their declared v/la is to end with the understanding that the individual should have time to react to it when they get back

do you really think that bernie was trying ot lynch you while you weren't here? because i didn't get that vibe at all. (and if i did i would have made a huge thing protesting it even though i scurmead you because i don't believe in lynching people who aren't here). i felt that he was encouraging a wagon, which i don't think is the same thing as immediately encouraging a lynch

FTR vla should only stop a wagon d1 because it's about content/pressure then. I kind of just want flip now.

Also, Skitter Bernie admitted right here that he was aiming to push me to lynch and that my V/la means fuck all

Today, yeah.

ok i apparently read this whole thing wrong. i thought he wanted to wagon you while you were v/la with the understanding a lynch would only happen once you came back; i didn't realize he was pushing to lynch you during v/la - i very much object to this

--

@gustavo and @shoshin: you're both town but i think you should stop talking to each other for a bit; you're quibbling and i don't think either of you are going to see the other's side and it thus won't really get anywhere.

gustavo, even if you scumread her just let it be today; she isn't getting lynched today

shoshin i think you should just stop engaging him

--

I'm a doctor. I protected you last night.

I don't know if I'm the only doctor or protective in the game so I can't guarantee that Gustavo was the nightkill, but I'm guessing he was because it just makes a lot of sense.

this is good info to know but ffs :facepalm:

p-edit: can the two of you just stop it please?

[skitter30]

tbf he does have a point - going into night yesterday he's not the person i would have guessed was going to get nk'd

but can the two of you maybe stop engaging each other right now till you're a bit more chill?

[skitter30]

FTR vla should only stop a wagon d1 because it's about content/pressure then. I kind of just want flip now.

Also, Skitter Bernie admitted right here that he was aiming to push me to lynch and that my V/la means fuck all

Today, yeah.

ok i apparently read this whole thing wrong. i thought he wanted to wagon you while you were v/la with the understanding a lynch would only happen once you came back; i didn't realize he was pushing to lynch you during v/la - i very much object to this

No that's not the goal specifically but the v/la does mean fuck all

i very much object to lynching someone on v/la in principle, even if i scumread them

--

Spoiler: @skitter

I have paranoid thoughts about BV; can you answer a couple of questions?

Do you remember how he treated his partners in his scum games?

Did he also post granular thought processes in those games?

i really am not a scum!bv expert; i'm very familiar with how he plays town but i don't know his scumgame too well.

i don't know how he treats his partners

i don't know what you mean by the latter question

[skitter30]

Skitter wrote:
“i'm somewhere around

{shoshin}
{gustavo}
{you, bernie}
{}
{nauci}
{nm, errant} - null - can't read nm and i don't really think errant's done much AI either way
{irrelephant, keyser} - upon a mom townflip keyser goes way down
{}
{mom}
{tw}”



@skitter - are you currently voting Mom?

TW is scum tier below Mom in your reads.

I’m also concerned that it looks like you’re lining up my misslynch after a potential green flip on Mom. What if Mom flips scum, how does that effect your read on me then? I personally didn’t expect to be below NM and Errant in your reads.

yes, i'm voting mom, and yes i'm aware that tw is below mom

i really want to lynch in {mom/tw} today, with a bit of a preference towards tw becuse i think h'es been actively more scummy than her; she's been more scummy via gamestate from my POV. but there's a bigger wagon on mom and bernie is pushing for mom and i want a mom lynch too so i'm voting there

if tw became bigger than mom again i'd prob vote there again tbh

i'm not setting you up for a mom townflip; just a very large part of how i form reads is how a player fits in in relation to everyone else. i'd be scumreading you a lot harder if you didn't have a lot of anti-associatives with mom. like the two of you probably aren't scum together so if mom is scum you probably aren't. if mom isn't, your scum equity goes up. i can't really divorce my read on you from these associatives.

also i wasn't entirely sure where to put you; i don't scumread you exactly but i don't really townread you either, and i don't feel right putting you in the null category because you have a lot of material/content; i just odn't know how to interpret it; i probably should have put you in your own category of 'unsorted' or something. i'm getting a lot of my read on you not from what you yourself are doing but from associatives + gamestate, which are pointing kinda town, but if i'm proven wrong there you lean a lot more scum to me

if mom flips scum your place in the readslist is accurate.
--

@skitter30 - would you put my name in there now, of players Nauci should consider to re-evaluate?

in terms of reads, between irrelephant and errant, but i wouldn't really recommend that she put time there tbh because she has limited time it seems and she hard townreads you and i don't think you're in danger of getting lynched today

[skitter30]

i think we should move on from the gustavo v shoshin thing.

if shoshin is telling the truth (that claim doesn't come from scum most of the time), gustavo was likely protected from the nk, which pretty much makes them both town until/unless other night actions indicate otherwise

ideally the two of you ought to work together given that you both ought to be able to recognize that the other is very likely town, but if you just can't at least stop getting into fights please

[skitter30]

@skitter, I'm going to look back to see where TheWorst pushed you as scum. His reads are pretty unbelievable (you, Nauci, Momrangal scum together). I'm guessing that as town, he's a perceptive enough player to know that it's an unlikely team. How likely is he to push difficult lynches as scum? Do you have experience with his scumgame?

so i think we've been tvt in all three games we've played together.

he's a perceptive player tho and me/nauci/mom objectively makes like no sense so i don't think he actually believes this?

i have no first-hand expereince with his scumgame, but i've never just seen him to flat out try to avoid being helpful like this, even the game he was trying to be anti-town as purpose

in a general sense, i don't know if he tries to push difficult lynches as scum. in a specific sense i don't think scum!him thinks he can lynch town!me like ever though; he knows that i can out-argue most people and pick apart bad wagons on me and that if i actually get lynched i'll make sure everyone understands they flip him after me on my way out

he also hasn't actually been trying ot lynch me here though - he hasn't voted me or suggesting i get lynched, just been shading me in a general sense

he also just doesn't like scum as much as town

i'm really starting to want tw more than mom tbh

[skitter30]

i guess the one thing i'm worried about wrt to tw is that i almost always scumread him? like he's a lot better at reading me than reading him and he's one of the people i've death-tunneled more than once

but when i death-tunnel town!him he's more like 'i'm sure you'll see that i'm town eventually' or like tries to read me based on the push or like tries to engage me and is pretty confident in his ability to towntell but like that isn't happenign here

[skitter30]

oh gosh i think this linking-games thing is really stupid and not AI like at all; i think it's indicative of a personality clash more than anything else and id on't think harping on it will accomplish like anything

[skitter30]

♫ if you stand for nothing what will you fall for ♫

blood for the duckling god

VOTE: duckling

--

bv vote is bad; irrelaphant i'd love for you to explain why it's unlikely that it's duckling here, and also why vca says it's unlikely that it's errant or key.

i'm also going to point out that i spent like half of day1 trying to get mom lynched despite great resistance in addition to sitting on her wagon like all day yesterday so keeping me in a partner pool is asinine

*reminder for setup thoughts later*

p-edit yeah that basically

[skitter30]

i'm like insanely cleared an associatives ffs

[skitter30]

i'm kinda waiting to see where tw is going to push today

i'm low-key thinking that he was pushing mom/me/nauci knowing that mom would flip red so that he could then push me/nauci today

i'm still *very* interested in having tw explain how he thinks that makes sense

or how he went from

gamestate is highly highly consistent with Nauci and skitter being scum with Mom

. in retrospect vesides recognising that I shouldn't be lynched she hasn't done a lot. I think I was being stupid yday.

to the following when pushed

@Bernie you may be overestimating how much I've put into this. it's independent scumreads with the gamestate softly supporting them as partners sometimes.

I'll re-read their ISOs when I have time later though.

[skitter30]

i don't believe like any of this ftr

[skitter30]

yes, i'm aware

he's being cage-y as fuck and this is nothing like the last time i saw him deliberately play up being lynchbait in order to avoid being the nk

i have no idea why he thought he was going to be the nk n1 - he hadn't really softed or anything at that point and he wasn't really townread enough to be nk'd

i really feel like all this pr stuff is him trying to avoid being a lynch

like he's playing up being a pr but none of it feels *real* to me; it feels like an image he's trying to project, not something he actually is

[skitter30]

I was probably the n2 NK target

like this makes no sense in that gamestate

[skitter30]

like he wasn't saying 'i'm a pr and thus know i was the n1 nk target'

he's saying 'i was probably the n1 nk target' but there's little nothing to support this in the gamestate, and the claim gave off the impression of him being a pr which let him coast for much of the day yesterday

if anyone wants to see what he looks like as town when he deliberately plays lynch-bait-y as a town pr in order to avoid the nk, look at the most recent iteration of jungle republic, day1 and the beginning of day2

like i correctly read his day1 softs there and i immediately believed him day2

this is like night and day from that

[skitter30]

Take a look at the scummeta Nauci dug up on TW on D2

If TW is town here it is genius play. What a gambit.

Play out your scum meta to perfection

, but actually be the town PR to save the game

this isn't his scum meta and this isn't how town!pr!him plays this the 'deliberately acting like lynchbait so i don't get nk'd' thing

[skitter30]

the main thing that's throwing me off here is that he knows i know this

p-edit that

[skitter30]

i have an appointment i have to get to nowish but i want to follow up on this when i get home later

there's some things i need to dig out of your ISO from like a month ago iirc

UNVOTE:

till i get home

[skitter30]

I'm struggling to form townreads without sheeping at this point which is killing motivation further. Sorry to ruin your day but I'm town and I'm not getting mislynched today. Stop positioning me for a mislynch and move on to something else.

however i'm not sure what to make of this in this context (you know why i think)

was i supposed to read this as a pr tell?