Mini 2133: XP Mafia II (Game Over)

[Farkset]

Hello everyone and hi Hectic, lol, are we playing together a lot recently or is it because you join every existing game? I'm surprised i don't see chemist in here.

Also hello to Pink Ball, Ame and Pine with whom i have shared very little time but at least i know their names, and nice to meet everyone else!

Now, on to more serious issues:
- Day neighborizer might be useful or dangerous, i have both used hoods proficiently when my hoods were full town and i have been deeply pocketed when i was town in a hood with scum. I wound't immediately rule this out as a choice but very likely not the best option compared to the other two.
- Train Cop sounds nice because at least one mafia member will be forced not to train on each night to perform the kill, but… a Train Cop would receive a "not trained" result on a player who chose the Train Cop check as an action, correct? Also, town PRs may not train depending on ability, which would make this cop the greatest source of false innos ever, probably.
- Disable Strongman sounds like the only good perk without drawbacks, it's passive and always active and we do not know the amount of protectives we might have on the following days. Everyone can upgrade and we don't know what we upgrade into.

VOTE: Disable Strongman

I think the choice is a no brainer, but i will read posts supporting the Train Cop since i saw many while i was skimming the introductions here and i may have overlooked something.

-Farkran

pedit: yeah, quests are the other hot topic, i'll get to that very soon but my first impression is that i disagree with NK15 latest post

[Farkset]

mastina is in the game so lets let mafia kill who they please

Night Kill analysis in this playerlist is viable

as in, it's my favorite analysis no one trusts or does and I just want to have fun

what's wrong with having fun

My kind of player.

Hectic we're building a fun bloc, wanna join?

Lul, you know I'm in.

Btw, random thought, but what if we select Train Cop, and then have everyone in the playerlist either

Train

, or

Train Cop Check

the person who's next in the list. That way, the scum who did the kill has a chance to be caught out, since they can't claim they were Training, since there's a 50% chance of the person behind them checking them. And they'll have to claim whether the person in front of them was Training or not. Actually, I just realised this has problems since scum could be next to each other, and order of claims matters a lot. Never mind. (Unless someone smarter than me can see another way).

Uhm… this was a nice idea but it still has a lot of issues with false results, i mean… if anyone claims "Not Trained", what do we gain by learning that? He could have used an ability or the Train Cop skill itself. I think this tells more about Hectic than it does about the train cop usefulness

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Pretty sure the scum who did the nightkill would claim that they train cop checked and that would be the end of it

Yeah, but they have to claim their result on the person too, and they won't know whether they were Training/Not Training.

On the other hand, this makes more sense than i thought. Still, it only generates soft results and retains the issue of two scum in a row. Could be worth a shot to catch lying scum later in the game though. I might change my mind.

-Farkran

pedit: i believe that thinking of a way to break a setup in town's favor is a town thing to do, which incidentally it's also why i tried to do the same in undertale as scum, with... less than satisfying results, to be honest, but i still won so i can't complain . I don't think you would be the type to fake that as scum though. Are you?

[Farkset]

Let`s discuss quests: My opinion:

No one should do quests.

The drawbacks are too severe. In the worst case, the item might even go to scum on top of a townie being 0-xp`d. I see no pro-town way to use the quest mechanics. If someone does, please tell us.

Now, about quests…

The neighborizing effect has little meaning since it will be made of more than half of the playerlist by definition (it's only created if 50%+ of the plist joins the quest, if i read the rules correctly), so it's technically not even a neighborhood, it's a night-unlocked main thread.

However, the bonus perk is actually useful and can be easily leashed even if it gets into mafia hands. We would chose any leader believed to be town (because of the +1 xp bonus) and then have him send the special gift on another player who is also decided in the quest thread before it is locked. Although… from the description, it looks like we don't get to know what gift it is beforehand? This could be a problem, but we can still leash it via options, i.e. if it is a vigshot then it goes to player A, if it's a protective it goes to player B, etc.

The drawback is that one player will lose all his XP and is roleblocked for the night. That's… heavy, actually. It's like giving scum an additional roleblock power that they might not even have in the first place.

On second thought quests aren't so nice as i had read them initially. The risk vs benefit ratio seems to be scumsided unless the gifts are really really good AND if they don't fall into wrong hands. If we are to try and see if the rewards are worth it, everyone should join the day 1 quest and reassess once we learn more about the rewards, otherwise we skip them entirely.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

VOTE: Disable Strongman

I hate strongman.

I’m going to try my best to stay current in this game, but my best isn’t great. Please consider this a request, a plea, that you limit your posting to important, game-related topics. You can shitpost elsewhere. When a game produces more than a dozen pages in a day, it gets really daunting, and those of us who have real lives and responsibilities have difficulty keeping up.

Please. For the love of god. I’m excited for this game - don’t make me dread it.

Getting back to non-setup discussion, this looks like a town post as well.

-Farkran

pedit: i'm in favor of trying out the d1 quest, although this will mess with the Train Cop strategy if we decide to go with it

[Farkset]

pedit: i'm in favor of trying out the d1 quest, although this will mess with the Train Cop strategy if we decide to go with it

How come?

At least one player will be roleblocked and we don't know who it will be. I assume that if the player chooses Train, he won't know he has been roleblocked? Or does he get a XP report at day start, so that he can claim blocked when he doesn't get the +1 xp?

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Sabotaged players are not directly informed that they were sabotaged.

Yeah, but… assuming they trained, they would have gained +1 XP, and the rules clearly say that "you do not lose XP gained on the night you are sabotaged". So, if you get a XP report at day start, you would know if you have been able to train or not. Am i correct, or am i missing something?

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Pretty sure the scum who did the nightkill would claim that they train cop checked and that would be the end of it

Yeah, but they have to claim their result on the person too, and they won't know whether they were Training/Not Training.

Small problem with that. It gives me a massive townread on Hectic for having townslipped, but does anyone else realize the key problem with Hectic's plan which makes this a townslip?

No, but i do think hectic is +town for that post. Enlighten us?

-Farkran

[Farkset]

IV. Actions
This game contains two types of night actions: standard actions and bonus actions. Unless otherwise specified, all actions are standard actions. Each player may carry out a maximum of one standard action and any number of bonus actions in one night,

unless they Train, in which case they may take no other actions (standard or bonus)

.

The Mafia factional kill is a bonus action

; this in effect means that all Mafia members are multitasking, as they may carry out the Mafia kill at the same time as taking a personal action.

Players may also have passive abilities, which are abilities that always trigger and cannot be roleblocked or interfered with.

This game also contains day actions. Any number of day actions can be taken during a day, but each day action can only be taken once per day unless otherwise specified.

@Mastina scum cannot kill if they train

-Farkran

pedit: i mean, is this it? I don't see how it debunks Hectic plan though

[Farkset]

In that case, can't we just not claim results of Train Cops until mass claim happens? Since then power roles can just be honest during the mass claim.

This calls for "i trained" when the player above you in the readlist is dead, or "i checked" when the player below you is dead. It's still partially effective as a strategy, but it's not immune from loopholes. Still, the Train Cop sounds useful enough, i am considering switching my vote but disable strongman is a passive perk and could be useful if/when everyone has a night ability/gift/upgrade/whatever that is strictly better than train copping. I'd say my decision is tied to whether we decide to capture or nolynch today, and whether or not we decide to join the d1 quest. The least amount of blocked people, the better it is for the train cop. Still waiting for the mod to answer on the XP report issue too, i mean, how are we supposed to upgrade if we don't know how much experience we have?

-Farkran

[Farkset]

This game seems to have a lot of mechanics, which scum might use to deceive us. There always might be a scum, who steals xp or retrieve xp from dead comrades etc. and scum might never be forced to lie about trainings. Meantime our goal should be to generate IC and for that we need to reduce number of shenanigans that scum can pull.
~ker

[Farkset]

Actually, Ame, on further thought I agree with you. Disabling powers isn't fun for the game. And, philosophically, I believe Mafia should be allowed to remove players who are so problematic if they want to spend the XP on a strongman.
VOTE: Neighborizer

- Bret

Besides being evidently TSBS, and i don't believe in that, the problem with this post is… why would you consider strongman mechanics fun?

Serious question

-Farkran

[Farkset]

It is public knowledge that the Mafia's factional kill costs 1 XP to carry out. The Mafia member making the kill may spend an additional 1 XP (for a total of 2) to make the kill a strongman kill, meaning it cannot be stopped by anything except for a commuter.

[Farkset]

Mastina and Chloe probably disaligned for attempting similar setup-based townslips. I think the townslips aren't particularly AI for either but they are almost never SvS; yet to determine if TvT or TvS.

Actually i'd like mastina to answer this:

This alt is a playstyle experiment.

Well let me tell you, if you're town it's a failure already. (I guess you could argue it's also a failure as scum if I pegged you this early, buthey, never know.)

Because I'm pretty sure this is not the result you intended from your alt:
HURT: Lady Chloe.

What do you expect from this?

-Farkran

pedit: Ame could you explain why do you think the train cop is a net negative? I mean, i thought so as well initially, but it's clearly not imo

[Farkset]

Every player can upgrade with their XP, but that's not the point

I'd like to hear your thoughts specifically as of why the Train Cop would be negative utility

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Ad hominem.

That's a great characteristic of.... OMGUS I THINK.

CAPTURE: HECTIC

-> Setup speculation that is wordy and wrong, then vote for bad ability.
-> Fluff and attempted buddying.
-> Afraid of "starting anything".

Yeah, I did my job for the day I think.

I don't consider aggressiveness AI, being one of the most aggressive people on ms, but i can stop myself before crossing the toxic line. That said, toxicity itself is not AI either, but this push is terrible and poorly timed.

HURT: springlullaby

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Sorry in advance for my mess of thoughts about the mechanics. My opinions were changing as I read people's ideas and I was typing as I went.

I would honestly consider anyone pushing for neighborizer to be scummy. It gains almost no useful and dependable information for town to use and also is a great way for scum to pocket and gain town trust.

Training Cop offers a lot of information when claims come into play and makes it nearly impossible for scum to lie without taking a huge risk. I like Hectic's ideas around this. Farkran does have a good point about false innos though. I think choosing this will prove most useful in the future while the disable strongman could be immediate. That said I could definitely be convinced to go for disable strongman. The Training Cop strategies would only work with full participation and still have flaws.
(Reading through I have been convinced to switch to disable strongman. Training Cop just has too many flaws in strategy to be useful in my opinion. Especially in comparison to disable strongman. I also somehow overlooked that it was for the whole game)
VOTE: Disable Strongman

I think the general consensus is that Quests are more of a bad idea than good (but fun) which I agree with. The only benefit for town is the gift which may even end up going to scum, and on top of that a townie is drained and roleblocked. I think the disadvantages outweigh the benefits by a lot. I would be ok testing it out early game though because maybe the gift is worth it. But later on, especially if we lose quite a bit of town it's just not worth the risk of giving scum advantages. I do agree that quest members should be voted for here.
Since it seems the quest is happening and I'm ok with that:

confirming I sent my PM to enter the quest

VOTE: Disable Strongman

I hate strongman.

I’m going to try my best to stay current in this game, but my best isn’t great. Please consider this a request, a plea, that you limit your posting to important, game-related topics. You can shitpost elsewhere. When a game produces more than a dozen pages in a day, it gets really daunting, and those of us who have real lives and responsibilities have difficulty keeping up.

Please. For the love of god. I’m excited for this game - don’t make me dread it.

Getting back to non-setup discussion, this looks like a town post as well.

-Farkran

pedit: i'm in favor of trying out the d1 quest, although this will mess with the Train Cop strategy if we decide to go with it

What makes you think this is a town post?

Thinking about it more, I actually like the idea of scum having strongman. Yeah, neighborizor is the way to go I think. I still prefer train cop the least / think it is net negative.

This is almost too scummy to be scum

HURT: Flight of the Conchords

Why?

This is also a towny post, tone and inquisitiveness look genuine.

To answer the question addressed at me, i think Pine's plea to make the game readable was genuine and outside of his scumrange. Pine is a renowned scum player on ms and i used to scumread (or push to mislynch, when i was scum) him for lurking, but every time he was town and i think that specifically asking for a chance to NOT lurk is a towny thing to do from his position. I don't have hard reads at this point in time but i have some elements to build a readlist on.

In comparison, your (raya) post is less towny than Pine's, because i can also foresee an attempt to pocket/being lamist with it. Note that i don't see you as particularly lamist here, i just admit the possibility that you were.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

This alt is a playstyle experiment.

Well let me tell you, if you're town it's a failure already. (I guess you could argue it's also a failure as scum if I pegged you this early, buthey, never know.)

Because I'm pretty sure this is not the result you intended from your alt:
HURT: Lady Chloe.

Be nice, mastina. I support all private alts. I think it's a preposterous reason to SR someone.

You're not reading right.

I'm not scumreading Lady Chloe for being an anonymous alt.
I'm scumreading Lady Chloe for their contributions to the game thusfar.

Can you point me to which Chloe posts are poor contributions to the game? Her iso is short enough, this shouldn't be a huge effort.

To be honest, i liked #70 and #75 but i slightly disliked #139. I'm interested in your opinion.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Can I be the leader of the quest??

I'd trust PB as a leader over spring for what it's worth--not because I think spring is suspicious (

spring's probably town

), but because I trust PB to make better use out of being the leader than spring.

Please elaborate on the bolded as well. I'm not discounting the possibility to be wrong on springlullaby, but your level of confidence seems misplaced and i'd like to understand why this is the case.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

TOWN
Hectic - i liked the attempt to mechprogress, also i think i can be accurate on reading hectic very fast after having played with him so much recently
Pine - genuine introduction
---TOWN CONFIDENCE LINE---
Raya36
Not Known 15
Lady Chloe
Ame
---TRUE NULL LINE---
mastina
momo
Pink Ball
Ginngie
---SCUM CONFIDENCE LINE---
Flight of the Conchords - I don't like TSTBS posts from either alignment, and being a secret hydra i'd assume it comes from experienced players, not newbies. This is the main reason i'm scumleaning them instead of giving them the benefit of doubt.
springlullaby - To further my thoughts on springlullaby, i think he's pulling a strategy similar to scum!FlavorLeaf, where he intentionally blurts out nonsense to make his post skimmed past instead of read thoroughly while at the same time candidating himself to positions of power.
SCUM

Read key:
- no strong reads yet, the players without comments are even weaker than those with comments
- players in-between the confidence lines are sorted by the little content they have. They are placed above the null line if i think there are some posts worthy of being town, below the line if they have a bad content/posts ratio so far.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Spring gives me jester vibes :S His actions seems to be staged with some self awareness.
~ ker

[Farkset]

I have joined the quest for the record

@Raya, about Pine: yes, probably. But it's not just what he did, it's how he did it. I don't think scum!Pine would be so interested in being caught up as to explicitly ask for it in such a polite, yet peremptory manner. If anybody knows Pine for being able to pull this out as scum, correct me.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

@post 254

Yes, but i don't particularly care, people can defend by themselves in this circumstance

i'm more interested in your actual scumcase of hectic

-Farkran

pedit @post 255
Large Theme in TM 2020, Mini normal 2124. Any post from FL

[Farkset]

Spoiler: springlullaby

Ame, are you soft-claiming something?
Just say it now because you aren't going anywhere past N1 with that bullshit.

I think only the minimum number of players necessary should do the quest and we should vote on which players to do the quest during the day. This will, ideally, reduce mafia's influence inside the quest and potentially limit their access to the content discussed.

Do you know how many scum we have?
Why are you so bad at logic?

^ Dumb.

We are settling the quest thing now.
We do it, I'm the leader.
Profit.

springlullaby, what makes you think you should be the quest leader?

Side note which definitely isn't related: What's your favourite wildcat?

you're scummy.

I already confirmed I'm a questing adventurer earlier, springlullaby. I'm fine with this plan. Leader should be the consensus/best townread we got.

I am.

I will repeat it, you ask stupid question.

What does my PR skills has got to do with anything?
I have to earn a leader vote from you? LOL.

Ad hominem.

That's a great characteristic of.... OMGUS I THINK.

CAPTURE: HECTIC

-> Setup speculation that is wordy and wrong, then vote for bad ability.
-> Fluff and attempted buddying.
-> Afraid of "starting anything".

Yeah, I did my job for the day I think.

HURT: Springlullaby
Scummiest attempt to get townread I have seen in a while. I shouldn’t need to explain this vote and won’t because I’m about to sleep, but I’ll write up my thoughts tmmrw after I meta dive spring.

Should be noted that Hectic is taking a very distinct approach to this game...playing in a highly questioning manner. Haven’t played with him before, but I think his slot will prove to be readable by comparing the questioning tone with his recent games.

What that bit about Hectic exactly? Lot of words for nothing.
And unfortunately for you, you do have to explain your vote.

Are you pissed I found you and your buddy on my first two votes?

Only if you share it with me, Pink Ball. We should ration leadership out.

That said, would trust Hectic with leader even more than PB. PB, love ya to death, but you're not as obvtown as Hectic is and I got the sense that Hectic is more mechanically-minded than you so like. Hectic > PB > spring imo for leadership.

Hmm, wait.
All joke aside, Hectic was wrong about the mechanics all along you know?
Are you even paying attention?

Ame,

I read:

That's what I mean by a filter. It's not perfect, but it's something. If scum care about influencing the quest, they will have to do so first in the public thread, then in the private thread. It's just an idea though. I don't think it's that important if there's not obvious support for it. To be honest, my real agenda was giving critical PRs a way to avoid joining the quest without becoming a target for mafia. But increasing the number who join beyond the minimum kind of diminishes that.

I see your point. I like this idea best, thus far. Say no more.

Dumb.
Scum gaining a PR via quest becomes problematic only when any town PR is outed.

How to maneuver Quest needs to change only then: the best outcome being all vanilla on the quest then.

In meantime, best quest play is to simply distribute chance of sabotage equally to that already existing.

None of these posts make sense or are useful to sort people. Some are wrong in premise (129), some are wrong in their conclusion regardless of eventual posthumous correctness (168), some are clearly jokes (155) but ultimately all you are doing is adding noise, same as scum!FL usually does, except you are also more toxic and unpleasant about it.

I don't think being wrong at reading the setup is inherently AI by the way - if anything, not for hectic who was the first to pull that out. Do you have a relevant opinion on mastina and chloe?

-Farkran

[Farkset]

As i said i don't consider toxicity AI. I consider your bad push on Hectic AI and i'm still trying to assess if you are the type of player that would do that as scum or if you are one to push weak things to make the gamestate move forward even when they do not make sense logically.

Mastina and Chloe are the other two slots that made significant mistakes in their interpretation of the setup. It rings weird that you do not have an opinion on them, but you have a strong one on hectic.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

It doesn't, i'm taking notes.

Who is scum besides hectic?

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Whatever, springlullaby. I don't know if I can get more out of this interaction and I feel like it's going nowhere. Your overall attitude is indicative of town in my experience, but I just don't follow most of your reasoning and confidence in scum!me at all.

Unfortunately this is true, and springlullaby has improved since we, uh, scolded her - for a lack of a better word.

That said, it was a similar attitude that got me townread until d4 in undertale, but trust me that there are very few players who would be able to pull that. It takes physical and psychological effort, lots of it.

HURT: springlullaby
Enough of this BS.

@NK15 is this vote because springlullaby irritated you or do you have an AI read on her?

-Farkran

[Farkset]

That said, it was a similar attitude that got me townread until d4 in undertale, but trust me that there are very few players who would be able to pull that. It takes physical and psychological effort, lots of it.

How did you have the mental capacity to pull that kind of thing off? Sheer willpower?

Farkran likes to tryhard in his games and holds 100℅ winrate thanks to that. With each game he has higher pressure to keep this score (yea I answer for my other head but second person view is usually better).
~ker

[Farkset]

That said, it was a similar attitude that got me townread until d4 in undertale, but trust me that there are very few players who would be able to pull that. It takes physical and psychological effort, lots of it.

How did you have the mental capacity to pull that kind of thing off? Sheer willpower?

I honestly don't know. I didn't want to do it. It wasn't the best strategy i could possibly go with. It just happened, and i was unable to back off of that, so i had to push it through with all my might.

I am very motivated to win games in general, and being scum gives me even more motivation because i can't blame my own, or my town teammates' ignorance of the game and setup - it falls entirely on my shoulders to not let them down. Which also means i usually get nervous when playing scum, but i still like it more than being town. Being town can be really frustrating at times, and more often than not you can't even test your reads because other people don't listen to you. I want to improve my communication skills, but i often get caught in a fight against my ego and my ego usually wins.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

That said, it was a similar attitude that got me townread until d4 in undertale, but trust me that there are very few players who would be able to pull that. It takes physical and psychological effort, lots of it.

How did you have the mental capacity to pull that kind of thing off? Sheer willpower?

Farkran likes to tryhard in his games and holds 100℅ winrate thanks to that. With each game he has higher pressure to keep this score (yea I answer for my other head but second person view is usually better).
~ker

Not anymore

-Farkran

[Farkset]

I see some votes on spring and I think they come mostly because of playstyle rather than an actual scumread

Do you think her push on hectic makes sense? Do you think it is AI for either of them? You seem to know hectic well too, what's your opinion on him?

-Farkran

[Farkset]

@PB why is spring not reevaluating his thoughs? He got quite solid feedback from people but instead of doubt he persist even more.
~ker

[Farkset]

Apologies for the long-winded post, but I must interact with several posts in succession for transparency and sorting-sake:

^
Yes.

You say you misunderstood the mechanics.
I said you were wrong. Aka gearing the town toward bad choices for bad reasons.
Big difference.

I misunderstood the mechanics, and paved an otherwise different strategy.
You misunderstood the mechanics, and changed my perspective of how we should approach.
Ame was openly flexible about her perspective.
Mastina has been accused of "attempting a townslip."
Not Known 15 and Pine have changed votes, albeit for differing reasons under other contexts.

How do these situations yield different conclusions on our alignments - or, if not - how you approach us?

... what?

Your neighborizer choice was poor as well as the reason you displayed in justifying it.

Mastina and Lady Chloe did not such thing.

Are you saying that Mastina and Chloe are town, scum?

I believe you fail to differentiate mechanical choice and alignment. While a sound point on this approach exists, it is lazy.

Furthermore:
-You deem Momo/Hectic are scum.
-You differentiate that Mastina and I are different than Hectic in action, but not in alignment.
-You accuse Hectic as scum in the same sentence of inquiring whether he believes Mastina and I are town.

If Hectic said any read other than null - what would you have concluded?

Actually Hectic and Farkset can be scum together again.

You point the finger to many people, is that to overshadow the fingers pointed at you?

If you want a Leader position, you might want to stop forcing your will onto others.

Uhm… The bolded doesn't look like a thought line you would have if you are considering springlullaby as potential scum, which you should be based on 282 and this quoted post. I mean, sure, everyone is potential scum, but it looks like you have a scumlean on springlullaby specifically, am i wrong in saying so? If i am, please tell me.

However, if i am correct, why are you even considering her as a leader, instead of saying something along the lines of "no way i will ever accept you as the quest leader"?

Please clarify your position, because as it is it looks like you're either TMIing her town or trying to distance from her and you slipped - however i don't know you and i'd like to hear what your thought process was exactly when writing this post.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

323 sounds like "there is no point in lynching, because there is higher chance to kill town then scum"
Capture is just like lynch but just not lethal.
~ker

[Farkset]

323 sounds like "there is no point in lynching, because there is higher chance to kill town then scum"
Capture is just like lynch but just not lethal.
~ker

The two are nothing alike. Lynch tells us alignment, and so is worth the downside when it hits a town player. Capture teaches us very little. It is a blind roleblock. It sounds like it would be much useful later on, for example (likely sooner than this, but as an example), when there is only one scum left alive, etc.

- Bret

I mean, it's just not an interesting question to answer.
Mafia at it's core is a game that allows scum remove players that are a threat to them. That's the philosophy angle.
I also think having the strongman kill available allows us to use NKA more reliably - we don't have to ask ourselves "is [player] still alive because scum fear some protective role?"
I get the argument for disabling the strongman, though. You wanna do that, go ahead, it's a solid option.

- Bret

This is… not good.

HURT: Conchords

-Farkran

[Farkset]

My comment on the state of the game is that one scum is voting you no matter what your alignment is. If you're town, they want to discredit you because of your open leadership proposal. If you're scum, it would be distancing

Can you clarify what are your reads based on this? There were only a very few votes on springlullaby at the moment of this post, what made you think that there is scum among them?

You admitted the possibility of SvS votes - why should a scumteam that includes springlullaby orchestrate this theater, this early in the game?

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Yes, but the rule was the same. We just have added clarification here.

From XP1:

This takes the place of another action and cannot be used alongside

any action

.

Additionally, Mastina was a part of the scum team so was aware even if the public wasn't. And the post I quoted from before indicates that she was:

And why no kill N4?

There's no explanation for this except for scum training. It's the only possibility, because there's no method by which a kill could have been stopped.

I didn't stop it with my roleblock, Assembler was dead, so there was no longer any obstacles for a kill. It had to be training. N3 does not have to be.

That was more than two years ago... Do you remember all things from two years ago? I see the possibility of it being faked but it isn`t big enough to be scum indicative.

Was the scum kill a bonus action in the previous XP mafia, or just an action? Misreading what a bonus action is could explain the issue if it didn't exist in the past, but this is still a good point to make about mastina.

@Pine, i think you are the authority here when talking about mastina, is that AI for her?

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Personally i think if the quest is guaranteed to succeed (13p = 7 people to hammer the quest success), everyone else should join regardless of their opinion on quests.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

I think that's a readlist, actually. Based on Hectic's current vote, 376 is town to scum and 378 is scum to town (why did you post twice in reverse order?)

It looks very, very close to my own right now, but why is NK15 so high, if my interpretation of your post is correct? It's more null to me. Also i think you're discounting springlullaby a bit too much, his behavior and his improvements also turned her into a nulltown-ish slot to me, but 4th place is… high. Is she that easy a read to you?

Gingie is another concern that i have atm, but that's because i agree with you on the position he's occupying. My other tinfoil read is Chloe possibly scum for her interactions with mastina and springlullaby.

Wondering how many scum there are in the {chloe, concorde, spring, gingie} group.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

And you know Lady Chloe's alignment how?

...these kind of gotcha moments are really hard not to scumread! I'm not gonna townread springlullaby for the same reason I was townreading Farkran for a bit in that Undertale game. Her arguing about nothing and missing the point of many posts/questions I've asked her is scum-indicative.

P.S: You need to use the HURT tags for captures.

It's... plausible. I thought she was a different type of player, producing noise more than in-game content, but i was wrong.

Her posts are not empty, and i disagree with a lot that she says, but that doesn't make her immediately scum. Nor that makes her town. She's null in a way that my read on her isn't void, it's a net balance of null, maybe nullscum, but that vote on gingie makes sense for instance. I think spring is a slot that we don't sort today.

That said, we are not even voting to remove her from the game, just roleblock and xp loss, so... uhm. I think i can live with capturing her but i wouldn't say she's my top priority rn.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Springullaby how did you write the instances of that list? Literally, what did you do to write it?

Also hectic how confident would you say you are in pinkball alignment right now?

I have a 2-sided theory that i need to explore

-Farkran

[Farkset]

It is relevant. Tell me how you would write the next one if one more person joins the quest then.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

No sorry, let me clarify. I don't mean how you parsed for people, i mean how you actually wrote the list. What did you type?

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Also hectic how confident would you say you are in pinkball alignment right now?

-Farkran

Ok spring, still need this from hectic

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Springullaby how did you write the instances of that list? Literally, what did you do to write it?

Also hectic how confident would you say you are in pinkball alignment right now?

I have a 2-sided theory that i need to explore

-Farkran

Not very. I didn't like 292

Ok.

So, hectic, why was your first thought to townread springlullaby based on the switched positions between you and pinkball? My first thought wasn't that.

I thought that scum could have been discussing joining quests or not in their PT, pinkball could have agreed there before you and before outing it in the main thread and that's how springlullaby parsed it first.

Also, i would think that's a more likely reason for springlullaby to correct that mistake without announcing it. If she wanted to sort the quest takers in order of joining and noticed an error, she could have announced the mistake. Instead, if the mistake could imply a scumslip, she'd just hope nobody would notice.

Now, if i was editing a readlist, i would copypaste the playerlist in a notepad and then copypaste individual names in the order i want them to be. Often, i sort people as i meet them in the playerlist. Like this: 1st player, townread; 2nd player, scumread; etc. I asked springlullaby to explain how she wrote the list because this process can generate errors, so it is still plausible that pinkball got above because he is also above in the original playerlist.

However, it surprises me that Hectic didn't think of the scum PT when he is scumleaning both of the slots involved. I don't know if i should consider this a townslip from hectic.

Anyways, this is a very tinfoil-y theory about what happened, but i think it will be worth to check it for validity when a flip occurs. Today, it's probably worth it to just block springlullaby and see what happens.

HURT: springlullaby

-Farkran

[Farkset]

(i'll read ame's plans in a short while, it's dinner time)

-Farkran

[Farkset]

So I think I came up with a game-breaking Train Cop strategy.

No Capture Version
7 players go on the quest
We decided publically who will be the leader. The leader is free to use any action they choose.
The other 6 questers Train
Each of the 6 non-questers is assigned to Train cop one of the (non-leader) questers.

Capture Version
7 players go on the quest including the captured player.
The leader is decided publically and is free to use any action they choose.
The other 5 questers Train
Each of the 6 non-questers is assigned to Train cop the 6 non-captured questers including the leader. (Alternatively one of the questers remains unassigned)

In this way, mafia can't join the quest without being forced to Train! So at least one mafia will have to remain outside of the quest in order to do the kill. And the others inside the quest will not be able to use their abilities! So mafia has to decide to either A) be a part of the quest or B) use their abilities.

What if mafia is assigned to train cop the mafia inside the quest so they're free to do what they want

Indeed, but that's not the primary goal. The primary goal is forcing mafia to have to either use their ability/kill OR be inside the quest, not both.

Like even if they aren't assigned to their partner, they can still use their ability and simply say that the person they were assigned to trained.

Oh I see, we can't account for that, but it's less likely than is that they'll be assigned to their partner.

What I like about this is that if there is a kill, we know ~100% that it was one of the people outside of the quest that did it. (~accept for the potential of mafia being assigned to their partner)

It sounds nice, however there are several potential problems with it

1) If the 3 scum decide to join the quest, they will have lylo-equivalent voting power for the leader, making it more likely for the leader to be mafia, resulting in a catastrophical failure because they would get xp, gift, and free reins on the kill. The kill part is solved in the captured version, since the captured player cannot strongman (which i assume it would bypass the roleblock by capture?) today for a lack of xp. I also assume that mafia do not start with more than 1 xp. I'm not sure how much i would place my faith in

"Each player starts with 1 XP unless otherwise specified, and players can never have less than 0 XP. Players are always aware of how much XP they have.

"

but... probably they start with 1 xp, or at least most of them do.

2) Any mafia outside of the quest can kill freely and claim that the player assigned to them trained, even if town. There is no valid way to be sure all mafia are placed on the quest, so how do we know what happened? This is also not considering the possibility that mafia outside is assigned to check mafia inside, which would be a really bad result to trust later on.

I think the risk for disaster is too high compared to the benefit. Effort put into mechbreaking the setup is still town points to me though - i don't think scum would try that much to validate a train cop strategy

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Setup Specific Rules:

Each player in this game will have a certain amount of XP. XP can be gained by some night actions, and can be spent to power abilities. Each player starts with 1 XP unless otherwise specified, and players can never have less than 0 XP. Players are always aware of how much XP they have.

Sabotaged players are not directly informed that they were sabotaged.

By the way, while i was writing my latest post, i just noticed the contradiction in these mechanics. I asked the mod if players would get an XP report at day start, but he didn't answer, so… i think they don't. They just know how much XP they have at any given time.

However, since the mod also assumes that players wouldn't know if they have been sabotaged or not, i think there is more than one way to lose xp at night.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

...oh, and, the sabotaged player is roleblocked by default too. Which means he cannot train.

-Farkran

pedit: i guess something like that could make sense and i think it's likely present in this setup - perhaps with a different power than roleblocker because this sounds like too many roleblockers

[Farkset]

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Voyeur

This thing? Hmmm…

Also it seems that springlullaby was genuinely surprised by the daychat here. Her last game, barring alts, is dated 2018 and she was scum in a game without daychat.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

I have an upgrade in 1 XP that's why I want leadership btw.

I don't believe this

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Conchorde i'd like you to post a readlist

-Farkran

[Farkset]

@Fark
@Hectic
@momo

You guys never try to evolve or learn from your mistakes, do you? Always surface level reads and always trying to fit the game narrative to your preconceived delusional way of seeing things.

P.S. If Ame is town aligned then add her to the list above.

-Jemaine

Unless i have past experiences with you, i'd like to see you quote some posts of mine that are surface level and delusional/manipulative.

For the record, based on this post, 550 and 313 VS the "opposition" i think there is a clear fracture around springlullaby and how to treat her slot. There is only one reason currently to believe she could be town, and that's how others are behaving around her. I think it's more than plausible that scum are putting up a theater to achieve several results:

1) distance themselves by having the scumteam side with or against springlullaby
2) those who are siding against her (and the majority) are pushing a very easy lhf
3) those who are siding with her will be pocketing her hard because she is the one with surface reads/reactions

This is dependant on springlullaby's flip though and i can't get over some of her posts, so i'm not changing my vote there for today. It will not achieve a flip, but it is the correct choice and despite the above reasoning there is no small chance that spring will flip scum when a flip is available.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Alright, did some reading on Spring. I doubt they're scum. Hectic and Fark, care to try Ginggie out? You both have them pretty low on your lists and we haven't gotten anything from them.

HURT: Ginggie

I am not against a scum!Gingie world but it's not what i'm doing today and i'd like to hear your reasons for giving springlullaby that much maneuverability

-Farkran

[Farkset]

always trying to fit the game narrative to your preconceived delusional way of seeing things.

LOL, spring still thinks that he will become leader - that's delusional personality
~ker

[Farkset]

The exceptions are games like these where RPG like mechanics are involved.

Do you mean xp and leveling up?

[Farkset]

Still no one said the most important thing.
Professor Moriarty is the worst.
~ker

[Farkset]

Again, farkset, how do you propose the vote to flip?

i'm not changing my vote there for today. It will not achieve a flip, but it is the correct choice

He said that he can't do that at the moment
~ker

[Farkset]

I'm not basing myself on that case, that's speculation that needs to be verified. Also i don't mean to flip you today, but i feel comfortable blocking you over the alternatives.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

That being said:

VOTE: Disable Strongman

HURT: Pine

Pine looks like the weirdest choice in this gamestate… why would you vote there?

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Cmon pine made very informative 7 posts, he voted spring in one of them. That makes him obvious scum. *irony*
~ker

[Farkset]

^This is really bad.

It is so bad that it would look like your typical post without *irony*
~ker

[Farkset]

I don't think i ever towncased springlullaby though. I think there is a fracture around her slot, which makes her flip significative, not more likely to be any of the two - if i had to talk about that post alone.

I think it's more likely to flip red though. My scumread is based on her posts shortly after her introduction, a (admittedly very reachy) tinfoil theory about the quest ordering, and last but not least the role/xp requirement claim.

-Farkran

pedit: oh shit, i had started writing this like one hour ago, forgot the tab open, and now i'm like 20 posts behind. This was a response to Ame's 585

[Farkset]

My dreams about mafia are full abstract. I don't see any people in there, only feel emotions equivalent to those when I read thread. It is not too bad, slightly more dynamic then real game.
~ker

[Farkset]

I want to play d&d with hectic now

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Easter is a thing right now, so I don't see how activity could be a relevant.
~ker

[Farkset]

Cop: Hectic
Vig: momo
Neighborize: mastina

I'd like a followup on this, the story was interesting

-Farkran

[Farkset]

@Pine, i think you are the authority here when talking about mastina, is that AI for her?

Actually.
The authority for reading me this game would probably be Pink Ball.

Pine has never had fairly strong read accuracy on me--he likes to tout that I've never had fairly strong read accuracy on him, but it works the other way, too. I've fooled him entirely as scum, and he's many, many, many times thought I was scum when I was town. He's played with me a lot though, so he has a good idea of when something's not alignment indicative, so he can tell you when something's nai, but I wouldn't call him the best player at saying what's ai for me. He's not terrible, in fact he's probably still above 50%, above standard, above the norm, in spite of how he gets it wrong, so he's one of the better players in this game, but I wouldn't call him the best in this game, especially since Pine and I frequently go months, even years, between playing games, where both of us get rusty on reading the other.

Ginngie's similar to Pine but probably has slightly higher accuracy than he does. She's been gone for a long, long time so past accuracy might not currently extend, I've been able to fool her as scum before, but I don't think she's been wrong on me being town before, at least traditionally--again tho, been a long time since we've played together, so hard to say for sure.

Which is why I say Pink Ball's probably the most accurate on me. He's played a shitload with me in recent times, we play about one game a month together or so (that is to say, most games I play in, he's in, too), and he was very quick to catch on to how to read me correctly. Again, that's not to say Ginngie or Pine are bad at reading me, they're just in this game not the

best

of the best at reading me.

Hmmm. I assumed Pine because i have read threads/articles with Mastina+Pine as a team, respecting each other, and also the TM2020 team.

Why do you only provide advice on who should be most accurate at reading you, but you offer no read on the same slot if you say you have been playing together a lot recently? I mean - Hectic and I have been playing several games together over the last couple months - that's a lot, at least for me since i usually don't join multiple games together - and i think i have a good grasp of hectic alignment here. Are pinkball or gingie particularly hard to read, to your knowledge?

-Farkran

pedit: i guess gingie is not. What makes him town?

[Farkset]

Sadly, town me is good at looking kinda scum.

Talk to me about this

What do you do that makes you lynchbait as town?

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Unless i have past experiences with you, i'd like to see you quote some posts of mine that are surface level and delusional/manipulative.

1) Surface level does not even go with manipulative. I didn't accuse you of being manipulative. I accused you of being surface level.

2) Past experience or not, I am talking about your posts and assumptions in this game. I do not wish to explain at this point, but you are making bad calls based on faulty reasoning.

-Jemaine

So you didn't point out any posts that are surface level or delusional, and you say you do not want to explain why you don't like my slot. I also don't see any bad call, nor faulty reasoning, and i'm pretty sure you don't see any either.

Feel free to correct me

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Roughly 50% (random is 23%)

I dislike spring's early posts, then she improved on tone but content is still lackluster. i misjudged her player profile at first, i think she is the type of player to be excessively stubborn as either alignment - pretty similar to me - and that would explain why the cases against hectic and me are pretty much "you don't agree with me so you must be scum", which is an ok argument to make initially if you want the game to progress, but it needs to be explored and confronted with your reads of other people. You may be unable to remove confbias as town, but when you don't even try it usually comes from scum. And that claim was bad.

Now though - as i said, the main point that i want to make on springlullaby is that the town (as in all the playerlist) is completely divided around her. There are people whiteknighting him for very little reason and people who instead sheep the attackers. Depending on her flip i think we can identify if she was being TMIed town or chainsaw defended as scum.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Pink Ball,

May you weigh the pros and cons you see to capturing an individual today?

I'm interested in this, and your comments after pink ball answer

I have my own opinion on the matter too

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Ask if I want to capture or not based on said pros and cons and it would be a better question

-Farkran

[Farkset]

So, you pushed someone to L-1 and they claimed a power role to avoid being captured.
Just like I said would happen.
Have you realized it's a bad idea yet, or are you all still being dense?
This day needs to end, and it should end without without using the capture.
We wait until lynch becomes available.

- Bret

Normally people claim in L-1, because town should only lynch VT at early stage. You can't afford to lose cop when there are like 2 PR in a game. However we are in role madness, where everyone is confirmed to have upgradeable role...
Why would claim be related to capturing? We know that

everyone

here has some sort of role, so why would being power be an argument here. The fact that spring makes mistakes

on daily basis

and claimed for no reason doesn't move my heart.

Hectic,

Vote to end the day. Capturing yields more detriment to town than benefit, specifically the first dayphase.

There is less clear benefit since there are a total of 6 candidates of capture, currently. Town numerically consists of half.

I find that this is a gamestate that benefits mafia.

The whole point of this game is trying to pick members of informed minority. In white flag people don't get any additional information and yet they figure out scum by looking at people votes and relations. They don't just no lynch on each day in apathy, even that the same odds are against them just like in here.
~kerset

[Farkset]

Kerset has no patience and doesn't read discord

Still interested in chloe's comments

-Farkran

[Farkset]

You forgot about xp drain. When scum gets captured they lose all xp and they can't gain this on n1. On n2 they need to train, so it disables their killing abilities them up to n3.
It's main advantage is that it narrows down people capable of nighkilling.
~Kerset

[Farkset]

Well i was going to wait for lady chloe but this is taking a turn for the worse so i feel i need to step in now.

1) Capturing doesn't force anyone to claim. You are not removed from the game if you don't, you just lose 1 xp, up to 2 considering that you cannot train if you wanted to. Spring claimed on her own, and that was a terrible claim both in timing and nature. Voyeur is an uncommon enough role to assume no counterclaim would happen, and a weak enough role to validate surviving n1.

2) I find it very unlikely that a town PR only costs 1 xp to upgrade, even if it is a bad role. She said she misread, but then she never claimed the correct amount. After claiming role and xp, there was nothing to prevent her from telling the whole truth.

3) Spring votes end day in 664 after calling multiple people scum with great conviction. Inconsistent and survivalistic, and the timing of the vote sounds like sheeping chloe. This is reason A for believing spring is being either defended by scum or TMIed town, but scum is more likely

4) Post 651 is incredibly lamisty and assumes people have forced spring into a claim. It is not true. This is reason B.

I can compromise capturing conchord or chloe if not spring. I'm not voting day end to avoid wagonomics.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Pros of Capturing:

• Can examine wagons/votes for later.
  
• Capturing scum blocks their ability.

Cons of Capturing:

• Potential to block town PRs, or force them to claim.
  
• Wagon information is less useful as it's not that harmful for scum to bus.
  
• No information from a flip.

I think we No Capture.

Pros of Capturing:

• Can examine wagons/votes for later.
  
• Capturing scum blocks their ability.

Cons of Capturing:

• Potential to block town PRs, or force them to claim.
  
• Wagon information is less useful as it's not that harmful for scum to bus.
  
• No information from a flip.

I think we No Capture.

Hmmm didn't think about the bus part, you're right about that

And by the way bussing is beneficial to town anyways so why is it part of the Con list? Let them bus on capture. I mean scum can bus on lynches too, it's up to us to determine whether they did

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Lol jemaine, i never once suggested that scum would want to use strongman n1, and your whole post revolves around that, only to to end in an insult to my play? Ok sure

I mean you didn't invent toxicity-based pushes as scum, you know :}

-Farkran

[Farkset]

To be honest now that you made me think about it, it's very unlikely that scum starts with the necessary xp to overcome capture, otherwise the mechanic would be completely scumsided as it allows for immediate false positives. I don't think this is a plausible assumption.

It's likely that all scum start with exactly 1 xp.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

1) Capturing doesn't force anyone to claim. You are not removed from the game if you don't,

you just lose 1 xp

, up to 2 considering that you cannot train if you wanted to. Spring claimed on her own, and that was a terrible claim both in timing and nature. Voyeur is an uncommon enough role to assume no counterclaim would happen, and a weak enough role to validate surviving n1.

Monovision at it's prime. It assumes the captired player is 100% scum aligned.

-Jemaine

You lose xp as either alignment, lol


-Farkran

[Farkset]

Ok listen conchorde

This looks like one of those moments where a 1v1 wouldn't be useful even to me. You're either not reading or putting words in my mouth on purpose and you're littering the thread.

/disengaging, you can have kerset make fun of you if he feels like it

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Omg i was actually wrong lol

Ok, nvm, have fun

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Jemaine, what are your actual intentions? I might sometimes overlook detail but i am trying my best to exchange my views with others to figure out the best action by working with them. Is this your help? Here you pull old farkran post to prove your point that he is unskilled...
You expect everyone to sheep you in Neighborizering and No capturing but you disappear instead of debating it. It is obvious that we don't follow you, when you never speak about perks of your plan. Do you hope that discrediting every other idea will make us pick yours out of elimination?
~Kerset

[Farkset]

Why can't you handle any input that you don't agree with to exist in the thread?

idk, because we don't have telepathy? like when i post, i don't even get warning about new posts being made, if he is looking here at the same time as me.

[Farkset]

Why can't you handle any input that you don't agree with to exist in the thread?

idk, because we don't have telepathy? like when i post, i don't even get warning about new posts being made, if he is looking here at the same time as me.

~kerset

[Farkset]

Chloe, i scumlean you - i have no issues with you as a person. I feel the need to correct wrong opinions and providing my own, but i don't want you to stop talking.

As you can see, i'm not immune to mistakes though.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Now why would I/we have needed to explain all this from the start? that brings me to the first paragraph of this post as well as the whole subject of why do people not try to find the various possible motives for someone to say/do something and evaluate based on that rather than equating doing something they wouldn't to being scum? I will ask again now.. what exactly was the scum motive behind bret voting for neighborizer even if you ignore my explanation entirely, and why have scum not pushed harder for that if they thought it benefits them more?

-Jemaine

As you see in votecount most of people don't think the same way as you do. If you think that your choice is the best for town then you should try to convince them. You don't give people any chance to trust you, if you keep all your thoughts to yourself. There is no way to townread you, if all your posts are discredits and you never show solvy state of mind or give reads about people. And by show i think about revealing it, not presenting the result of mysterious machine.
The thing is that scum might hide both behind mechanically correct and incorrect schemes. I don't really scumread people for being on no capture side and i totally believe that scum might agree on correct mechanic for towncred. The key is looking at their deeper agenda.
~Kerset

[Farkset]

but ech claiming wasn't really necessary :/
~ker

[Farkset]

Now though - as i said, the main point that i want to make on springlullaby is that the town (as in all the playerlist) is completely divided around her. There are people whiteknighting him for very little reason and people who instead sheep the attackers. Depending on her flip i think we can identify if she was being TMIed town or chainsaw defended as scum.

This is a false dichotomy though that doesn't leave room for town motivation in either case. Which slots would you scum read if she flipped town and which slots would you scum read if she flipped scum? Also, why did you ask me about the RPG thing?

The dichotomy isn't described by that last sentence - i mean, those would be the scummy people who interacted poorly around spring. The true dichotomy is wk vs attack, and those can be sorted by spring flip.

As for the rpg, i want to see what hectic ends up concluding. And it's a fun read.

Lastly, post 750-752 is how i would express myself if i was good at communicating.

Sleeptime, good night everyone

-Farkran

[Farkset]

The dichotomy isn't described by that last sentence - i mean, those would be the scummy people who interacted poorly around spring. The true dichotomy is wk vs attack, and those can be sorted by spring flip.

Could you rephrase this? I don't know what it's saying. Who specifically would you scum read from Spring's flip based on the way she has been treated so far. Earlier you implied that you would scum read me and Lady upon a town flip. Is this the case? This is the third time I'm asking this btw.

As for the rpg, i want to see what hectic ends up concluding. And it's a fun read.

I'm referring to your 556. Did you mention Hectics cyoa thing somewhere?

Yes, sorry. If springlullaby flips town, those who attacked her hard have higher scum equity and i'll be more incline to believe her most confident defenders have been TMIing her. If she flips scum, the strong attackers have less scum equity and i would look into those who attacked her attackers. Rarely scum do whiteknight their partners this early in the game - if they go about defending them, it's usually more subtle, such as a low-to-moderate chainsaw defense tactic.

That said, this does not guarantee a confident read on anyone, and currently my main reads are that springlullaby and conchorde are independently scummy for their dayplay. Lady Chloe, and to a lesser extent you for wanting springlullaby as a leader, are dependent on her flip.

Also 556 is from Kerset, i think he's asking what RPG mechanics are you referring to, which would be xp and levelup.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

So I've been thinking about this and I think it's best I claim. When I die, I become a treestump and the lynch mechanic activates. I've been trying to play in a way so as to draw the night kill, but with two claims now and seeing as FOC's, in particular, suggests a strong PR, I think that's probably not happening. So I'm claiming now to suggest that perhaps vig can aim for me tonight? I think there may be another way to activate the mechanic also because it says it will activate when I die

unless

it's already activated.

This looks… dangerous, and misconceived. You said you have been trying to draw the nk, but now you're making a claim that basically validates your survival forever, unless there is specifically a vig in the setup? I mean… it's not even scum motivated, unless scum knows for sure that there is NOT a vig in the setup - you seem to be taking an unnecessary high risk from the town by claiming this, which scum would probably just shut up about, but as town it's a pretty terrible claim, once again unless you know that there IS a vig in the setup. Hmmm.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Farkran,

Well i was going to wait for lady chloe but this is taking a turn for the worse so i feel i need to step in now.

1) Capturing doesn't force anyone to claim. You are not removed from the game if you don't, you just lose 1 xp, up to 2 considering that you cannot train if you wanted to. Spring claimed on her own, and that was a terrible claim both in timing and nature. Voyeur is an uncommon enough role to assume no counterclaim would happen, and a weak enough role to validate surviving n1.

2) I find it very unlikely that a town PR only costs 1 xp to upgrade, even if it is a bad role. She said she misread, but then she never claimed the correct amount. After claiming role and xp, there was nothing to prevent her from telling the whole truth.

3) Spring votes end day in 664 after calling multiple people scum with great conviction. Inconsistent and survivalistic, and the timing of the vote sounds like sheeping chloe. This is reason A for believing spring is being either defended by scum or TMIed town, but scum is more likely

4) Post 651 is incredibly lamisty and assumes people have forced spring into a claim. It is not true. This is reason B.

I can compromise capturing conchord or chloe if not spring. I'm not voting day end to avoid wagonomics.

-Farkran

Chloe, i scumlean you - i have no issues with you as a person. I feel the need to correct wrong opinions and providing my own, but i don't want you to stop talking.

As you can see, i'm not immune to mistakes though.

-Farkran

I am not convinced by your latter post. You've already begun to say that you'd compromise on capturing me and two other players, instead of truly evaluating why I hold the opinions I do.

Your thirst for asserting your opinion over others while deeming not doing so - being the more scum-indicative approach - may come from a town mindset,

if not scum who tries to control the narrative.

I added my reasons to Hectic's list for why no capture has a benefit.

Can you enlighten me on how you read Hectic and Springlullaby's interactions?

I think that calling for day end when springlullaby is the main wagon is suspicious, especially when springlullaby immediately sheeped you into that. I was mistaken about the xp loss upon capture, but now that it has been brought to our attention that ONLY SCUM lose xp when captured, it's even better and i see literally no reason why we should not capture today. Worst case scenario we're blocking a voyeur, best case scenario we're roleblocking a scum PR and putting it (very likely) at 0xp and forcing it to train. Why would you hard-defend that?

Besides, you say that i haven't been evaluating your motives. Aren't you being self-defensive by attacking me right now? You didn't say in the thread "hey, i am scum!", you offered opinions, and from them i deduced that you are plausibly scum. How is that not evaluating?

If you are town, i disagree with you strongly and i don't want the game to go in the direction you want it to. It happens. Plenty of time, i'd say, in all the games i played. Most of which i have been town. The bolded part sounds like free shade, why are you scumreading disagreement, rather than trying to understand if such disagreement is genuine or fake?

For the record, the main reason i'm scumleaning you is because of your interactions with springlullaby and springlullaby interactions with you. As for hectic, i think he's town and trying to assess whether springlullaby is trolltown or scum, i don't see anything wrong with that. If i am being pocketed by hectic, i'll reassess later, but i just think hectic would be much different as scum than he is in this game.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

@Ame, from my understanding, you can't be vigged.

This day needs to stop ASAP.
I see nothing good coming out of it.

lol hey, you can selfvote if you want to end the day quickly. We have already decided on what perk to activate, we have already validated quest success, the only thing left to decide is who to capture. If you are truly a voyeur and genuinely believe we are fishing and the day is taking a turn for the worse, you should take the block.

This is not a trap, i don't want you to trick you into selfvoting or say you're survivalistic afterwards - i mean, you have already demonstrated that you are by voting day end when you were the main wagon instead of trying to assess where is scum on your wagon - just saying that you can.

-Farkran

pedit: sure, i have zero case on you, except roughly half of my ISO

pedit2: yes, apathy - this game is definitely driven by apathy, with a 33 pages d1

[Farkset]

I kinda feel sorry for Pine because i think he's town and i actually wanted to see him play, but this is pretty much literally the opposite of apathy.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

The dichotomy isn't described by that last sentence - i mean, those would be the scummy people who interacted poorly around spring. The true dichotomy is wk vs attack, and those can be sorted by spring flip.

I think he's saying it'll be easier to spot scum either TMIing her as town, or chainsaw defending her if we have a flip, and not that he's assuming everyone around her is doing one of the two. By examining those with "poor interactions" with her. Eh, I don't think it'll be "easier", but we'll know which if the two to look for I guess.

This is correct - including the "not so easier" part. However, do you (@Ame) disagree that the town is fractured around springlullaby and that we can clearly identify those who are protecting her and those who are attacking her? Have you been wondering why? I find it hard to believe there are reasons so extreme to lean springlullaby town as to see people willing to end the day instead of capturing - anyone, not just springlullaby - just to save her. Just as it is weird to me to see people advocating for springlullaby as a quest leader. It's an unbelievable level of confidence at this point in time, but you are also part of these people and i wonder if i have been missing something, because i don't particularly scumread you, if i take you independently of springlullaby.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Cop: Hectic
Vig: momo
Neighborize: mastina

I'd like a followup on this, the story was interesting

-Farkran

sure

Cop hectic because I'm pretty much buddied up to him rn for his story thing and i'm going to have a hard time voting him

vig momoo policy, i person cant stan playing with him

neighborize mastina because in a PT we can do anything and id do anything to have have a pt with mastina

Why the bolded? Momo hasn't posted much, why do you believe he is unpleasant?

Also what would you do in a hood with mastina?

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Farkscum is trying to drawn out the thread with spam.

Excuse me?

-Farkran

[Farkset]

^Yeah no to teen titan.

BTW, Hectic is faking a tunnel now.

I haven't seen that before.

like john henry tunneling or

Don't know who that is.

^Oh look, FARKSCUM want to fish some more about vig mechanics.

Now tell me that spring says all of that unironically and has no self awareness.
~ker

[Farkset]

quote button glitched - ignore random quotes, i am referring to his recent posts
~ker

[Farkset]

^ Farkscum points out 2 post telling people I do not wish to engage in fluff + 1 post where I'm warning people against fishing.

= Another great meaningless bullshit post that occupy a great deal of space.

Tell me Farkscum, if you are against spam as you said, why don't you stop?

As far as i can see you are the one, who called out us for spam and now you posts like hahahah. Also

BTW farscum is only faking town tunnel, I've done it tons of times.

you are being tunneled here as your recent posts are clearly only yelling about us.

You fake being jester. There is no way to be seriously that much blind.
~ker

[Farkset]

Are you even aware that this game is confirmed to have no third-party? You act like person, who wants to have no credibility, makes intentional mistakes, contradictions, only suspect people who suspect you and most of the time shitpost by repeating yourself. Only jester would benefit from strategy like this but such thing doesn't exist here, so fake being one.
~your beloved kerset

[Farkset]

@ame
The difference between you and chloe is that i scumlean chloe indipendently of springlullaby.

If springlullaby didn't exist, i would still scumlean chloe, but i would likely townlean you. The potential associative is there for both, but i'd look at you with more suspicion if springlul flips scum. Does that make sense as an explanation of my thought process?

I admit that i dislike springlul playstyle as either alignment, but i'm trying to analyze the slot impartially. I have no such distaste for chloe though, even if i still scumlean her.

Also raya, don't you think that scum would be able to fake being a mediator, wrt chloe 848? If you read that tonally, does it strike you as town as Pine's introductory plea? I think they ask for similar things but are immensely different tonewise.

Last but not least, i support hectic or raya for quest leader, as an alternative to myself.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

People blame farkran for activity but at the same time everyone is keep questioning him. Most of his posts are replies to other people.
~ker

[Farkset]

If springlullaby didn't exist, i would still scumlean chloe, but i would likely townlean you. The potential associative is there for both, but i'd look at you with more suspicion if springlul flips scum. Does that make sense as an explanation of my thought process?

It does, thank you. Just to clarify though, you'd look at me more if spring flips scum but not if she flips town?

Also @Kerset head I'm curious about the RPG thing.

I asked about it, because it was unclear to me.
~ker

[Farkset]

Just to clarify though, you'd look at me more if spring flips scum but not if she flips town?

Is it your intention to ask what sounds like a loaded question, or just a coincidence? I'm starting to get paranoid of this line of thought because the day sentiment is to prevent spamming, and yet i am asked to drag a dead argument forward - it's ok if you have your reasons to do so, but i'd like you to explain what you wanted to achieve by asking this.

I mean, you seem to imply that i have a method to ascertain your alignment with 100% accuracy after springlullaby flips. Obviously i don't. I just have my opinion, which is only valid for the current state of things, by which i would look at springlullaby mid-to-late attackers first if she flips town; otherwise i would look at people who supported her for little reason.

Townreading springlullaby, or townreading scum in general, does not make you inherently scum. It only makes it more plausibly so if you didn't have a reason to be wrong on your read. For instance, i don't see what reasons you have to assign quest leadership to springlullaby, even if you townread her - it seems too much of a stretch, why are you not doubting springlullaby alignment in this circumstance, instead trusting the +1 xp and the item reward in favor of the town? Of course we will need to choose a leader, and player A isn't better or worse than player B until we don't know their alignment, but why would you go specifically against the flow and pick the currently highest consensus scumread as your leader? Do you have reason to think your read is more accurate than everyone else scumreading her? If so, why?

-Farkran

[Farkset]

momo, Pink Ball, Farkset, Pine are you all good with choosing the leader today through majority vote? We can vote using Leader: Player.

I don’t have a problem with that.

Leader: Ame

Let's make it so players cannot vote themselves during this tally.

Leader: Hectic

-Farkran

[Farkset]

So, basically you're saying that since i have an opinion rather than hard evidence, i am scum. Your questions were indeed loaded, because you were already going to post this no matter what was my answer. Either i wouldn't commit to my previous read, or my reads are scummy = i am scum no matter what.

You are guilty of the same accusation you move onto me. You demanded answers that i cannot give beyond what i have already expressed multiple times in the thread: i think springlullaby's flip is pivotal to sort the game; i think chloe is scummy independent of springlullaby; i think you, ame, have very little reason to defend springlullaby and the same could be said about flight of the conchorde. I think hectic and pine are towny regardless of the flip, whereas i would look at momo and pinkball under a new light based on springlullaby's flip. You forced your opinion on me by misreporting what you said was a dichotomy where in reality it wasn't, and this has been explained by hectic before me (805) meaning that either:
1. Both me and hectic are scum together, because otherwise i would have had no way to explain it to him
2. You are unable/don't care to read what i write and you already decided i was scum before this exchange.

I am still unable to sort you based on this, because there is a significant chance that you are tunneled town, but you should reread your own words and mine by making sure to remove confbias - you will realize that i have my own reasons to say what i have said, and you have been unable or unwilling to understand them.

The spoilered part is a summary of this exchange:

Spoiler: Ame

I got the impression from your original post

on the matter that you were attempting to set up a scum read on me and Lady without committing to it, so I wanted you to specifically state it. From the way you have gone about partially answering over this series of posts, I suspect you are playing with optics in mind and that you didn't want to directly confront me. Even now, you're being fairly political (lines 1 and 2).

This is evidence that you started this exchange with a conclusion in mind rather than with the purpose of sorting.

In 553, in the event of town!Spring, you speculated that scum are either pushing LHF or TMI town-reading her and attempting to pocket. This gives you the option to scumread both the people that are pushing her and the people that are town reading her in the event of a town flip.

No. This is what you forced upon me, the false dichotomy that you've been talking about but was never there in the first place. The true dichotomy is "people who behaved weirdly around springlullaby" VS "people who had reasons behind their behavior around springlullaby". And it's different than what you said there.

Furthermore, in that post, you linked my 550 as one of the people town reading her, meaning you were speculating that I was on the TMI town-reading her side of things. Yet over this conversation, you've changed that to having suspicion of me if Sring flips

scum

:

860

The potential associative is there for both, but i'd look at you with more suspicion if springlul flips scum.

Verified in line 4 above.

No. You are one of the slots that interacted weirdly with springlullaby, long before this exchange and long before my 1v1 with springlullaby herself. I have no presumption to have a read better than yours, but it's different if you are

weird but right

as opposed to

weird and wrong

, you must agree to this.

This is what I mean about leaving your options open and presuming scum in either case: if she flipped town I would be scum TMI reading her, but if she flipped scum, I would be scum too? The conclusion is coming

before

the evidence, which is a sign of an agenda-driven argument. Currently, you're my top suspicion.

And this is the final trap: if i am scummy for "leaving my options open" and the alternative is "knowing the truth" - a trait of the scumteam - i have no way to engage with you, i am scum no matter what.

Good night

-Farkran

[Farkset]

~I think Spring's play is obvious town. The crudeness. The claim. Her reads. The points she's made (except there was one about Hectic that was really silly, as well as her points on me, but otherwise)

I want you to elaborate this.
What are spring reads aside of those two you mention?

Spoiler: posts

40 rsv
41 mech
99 mech
103 ask ame
104 spam
209 shade ame
112 shade ame
114 shade ame even more
119 mech
122 mech
127 shade hectic
129 shade ame
130 mech
132 shade ame
133 spam
135 mech
151 mech
152 quest spam
154 shade hectic
155 ask hectic
157 argue hectic
160 argue hectic
164 mech
165 argue hectic
168 shade hectic
170 spam
173 quest spam
178 quest spam
183 quest spam
185 quest spam
201 shade hectic
202 ask pine
207 quest spam
208 quest spam
210 quest spam
212 mech
213 ask raya
214 ask raya
217 shade momo after being voted
224 quest spam
225 spam
226 shade hectic
228 shade hectic
230 ok
235 autoirony
253 mech
254 shade fark after being voted
255 argue fark vote
258 argue fark vote
260 argue fark vote
262 argue fark vote
265 argue fark vote
266 answer fark
268 argue hectic
270 argue hectic
273 argue hectic
274 ask Not Known after being voted
277 argue hectic
278 spam
281 argue momo again after being voted
284 argue hectic
286 tl on masti and chloe
287 spam
288 ask hectic
293 shade hectic and fark
302 quest spam
305 quest spam
307 mech
310 argue NK15 after being voted
312 ask FOC
317 refuse readlist, shade hectic
318 shade fark
320 mech
324 ?
333 shade fark/mech
337 ask? after being voted
339 call out lurkers
342 quest spam
344 quest spam
346 quest spam
348 questioning
350 questioning
354 questioning
366 repeat himself
367 mech
374 quest spam
379 shade hectic
381 spam
391 argue hectic
393 shade hectic
394 shade hectic
396 shade hectic
399 shade hectic
400 quest spam
402 idk
404 idk
405 joke
409 shade hectic
410 shade hectic
411 vote
415 shade ginngie
416 argue hectic
420 dislike that ginngie voted him
423 'lol'
425 call out that hectic vote him

That is how spring posts look like. What kind of reads did you like there? In terms of mechanical approach he disagreed with you.

[Farkset]

~I think Spring's play is obvious town. The crudeness. The claim. Her reads. The points she's made (except there was one about Hectic that was really silly, as well as her points on me, but otherwise)

I want you to elaborate this.
What are spring reads aside of those two you mention?

Spoiler: posts

40 rsv
41 mech
99 mech
103 ask ame
104 spam
209 shade ame
112 shade ame
114 shade ame even more
119 mech
122 mech
127 shade hectic
129 shade ame
130 mech
132 shade ame
133 spam
135 mech
151 mech
152 quest spam
154 shade hectic
155 ask hectic
157 argue hectic
160 argue hectic
164 mech
165 argue hectic
168 shade hectic
170 spam
173 quest spam
178 quest spam
183 quest spam
185 quest spam
201 shade hectic
202 ask pine
207 quest spam
208 quest spam
210 quest spam
212 mech
213 ask raya
214 ask raya
217 shade momo after being voted
224 quest spam
225 spam
226 shade hectic
228 shade hectic
230 ok
235 autoirony
253 mech
254 shade fark after being voted
255 argue fark vote
258 argue fark vote
260 argue fark vote
262 argue fark vote
265 argue fark vote
266 answer fark
268 argue hectic
270 argue hectic
273 argue hectic
274 ask Not Known after being voted
277 argue hectic
278 spam
281 argue momo again after being voted
284 argue hectic
286 tl on masti and chloe
287 spam
288 ask hectic
293 shade hectic and fark
302 quest spam
305 quest spam
307 mech
310 argue NK15 after being voted
312 ask FOC
317 refuse readlist, shade hectic
318 shade fark
320 mech
324 ?
333 shade fark/mech
337 ask? after being voted
339 call out lurkers
342 quest spam
344 quest spam
346 quest spam
348 questioning
350 questioning
354 questioning
366 repeat himself
367 mech
374 quest spam
379 shade hectic
381 spam
391 argue hectic
393 shade hectic
394 shade hectic
396 shade hectic
399 shade hectic
400 quest spam
402 idk
404 idk
405 joke
409 shade hectic
410 shade hectic
411 vote
415 shade ginngie
416 argue hectic
420 dislike that ginngie voted him
423 'lol'
425 call out that hectic vote him

That is how spring posts look like. What kind of reads did you like there? In terms of mechanical approach he disagreed with you.

~ker

[Farkset]

@Ame, We made 102 posts by now. With tunnel vision like yours in 892, you will find evidence anywhere. Do you want me to pick farkran town game and sample points like those?
Team mafia game for example

Spoiler:

Also I called it bad purely because it was out of place.

I interpret this opinion as in everyone is currently null to you?

Correct me if i am wrong - i fail to see the need of commenting my readlist if you don't agree nor disagree with it, unless you think i made it up in which case you are currently scumleaning me - again,

please tell me where i am wrong, i don't want to put words in your mouth

, just voicing my thoughts

@volpe generally speaking i understand your concerns but surely you must have some thoughts about anka now, if not about him directly, you should have noticed some people revolving around him

From your posts i get that you're trying to give your direction to the game and that is NAI - not being trustful of other players fits either with a paranoid town mindset or a scum looking for a broad lynchpool

Which one are you?

You've watched me solve that normal 2106 in the dead thread, didn't you?

Do you think you need to ask what kind of player I'm? Do you really have no speculations of your own?

I honestly forgot about you in the normal dead chat, sorry

i remember liking your posts but i didn't associate them with your nickname (i.e. in my mind i went like "player x posted stuff i like"). It may be helpful but i cannot form a super specific profile of you based on that only. Spectating is way different than actively playing.

That being said i already offered my interpretation of your posts here, and i want to hear more of your opinions of the current gamestate.

Right now you are mostly dodging questions and/or turning them back at who asked them, which is fine for a while but some answers would also be appreciated

once he [FLAVOR LEAF] realized he was on the losing side he backed out.

speaking of which, where exactly in the thread is this?

Post 596 and following. I don't believe that is a pure reconsideration without turning to someone else. I read Flavor Leaf as someone who takes hard stances and does not back off a stance without assuming a different one - voting nom, or me, would have been consistent with his progression thus far but he didn't. He just backed off and turned to AtE. I'm waiting for him to come up with more content when he has slept on it or something, but atm i think he's my highest scumread.

On a side note, your analysis of my posts makes sense,

but stuff happened around you is still concerningand i'd like to hear a full readlist from you.

I am pretty sure that you are going to deny this but you overread fark like horoscope. You see what you want to see in him. I doubt that you are familiar with his writing style at all.
~ker

[Farkset]

Like you changed it two times. First it was scum going after LHF vs scum pocketing her (literally the whole point of your original post was this), then it was to scum TMIing town vs scum chainsaw defending scum. And now it's people who are weird vs people who are not. You changed as you went along.

All of these are the same thing: me pointing out weird interactions with springlullaby. All of those terms are generalizations/specifications of the same concept. You read what you want to read.

Here are more examples of you playing politically/with optics in mind btw:

Spoiler:

(1) I don't think i ever towncased springlullaby though.

I think there is a fracture around her slot, which makes her flip significative, not more likely to be any of the two - if i had to talk about that post alone.

I think it's more likely to flip red though. My scumread is based on her posts shortly after her introduction, a (admittedly very reachy) tinfoil theory about the quest ordering, and last but not least the role/xp requirement claim.

-Farkran

pedit: oh shit, i had started writing this like one hour ago, forgot the tab open, and now i'm like 20 posts behind. This was a response to Ame's 585

(2) Jemaine, what are your actual intentions? I might sometimes overlook detail but i am trying my best to exchange my views with others to figure out the best action by working with them. Is this your help?

Here you pull old farkran post to prove your point that he is unskilled...
You expect everyone to sheep you in Neighborizering and No capturing but you disappear instead of debating it. It is obvious that we don't follow you, when you never speak about perks of your plan. Do you hope that discrediting every other idea will make us pick yours out of elimination?
~Kerset

(3) Chloe, i scumlean you - i have no issues with you as a person. I feel the need to correct wrong opinions and providing my own, but i don't want you to stop talking.

As you can see, i'm not immune to mistakes though.

-Farkran

The dichotomy isn't described by that last sentence - i mean, those would be the scummy people who interacted poorly around spring. The true dichotomy is wk vs attack, and those can be sorted by spring flip.

Could you rephrase this? I don't know what it's saying. Who specifically would you scum read from Spring's flip based on the way she has been treated so far. Earlier you implied that you would scum read me and Lady upon a town flip. Is this the case? This is the third time I'm asking this btw.

As for the rpg, i want to see what hectic ends up concluding. And it's a fun read.

I'm referring to your 556. Did you mention Hectics cyoa thing somewhere?

(4)

Yes, sorry.

If springlullaby flips town, those who attacked her hard have higher scum equity and i'll be more incline to believe her most confident defenders have been TMIing her. If she flips scum, the strong attackers have less scum equity and i would look into those who attacked her attackers. Rarely scum do whiteknight their partners this early in the game - if they go about defending them, it's usually more subtle, such as a low-to-moderate chainsaw defense tactic.

That said, this does not guarantee a confident read on anyone, and currently my main reads are that springlullaby and conchorde are independently scummy for their dayplay. Lady Chloe, and

(5) to a lesser extent you

for wanting springlullaby as a leader, are dependent on her flip.

Also 556 is from Kerset, i think he's asking what RPG mechanics are you referring to, which would be xp and levelup.

-Farkran

@ame
The difference between you and chloe is that i scumlean chloe indipendently of springlullaby.

If springlullaby didn't exist, i would still scumlean chloe,

(6)

but i would likely townlean you

. The potential associative is there for both, but i'd look at you with more suspicion if springlul flips scum. Does that make sense as an explanation of my thought process?

I admit that i dislike springlul playstyle as either alignment, but i'm trying to analyze the slot impartially. I have no such distaste for chloe though, even if i still scumlean her.

Also raya, don't you think that scum would be able to fake being a mediator, wrt chloe 848? If you read that tonally, does it strike you as town as Pine's introductory plea? I think they ask for similar things but are immensely different tonewise.

Last but not least, i support hectic or raya for quest leader, as an alternative to myself.

-Farkran

Line 1

: "I don't think" is hedgey. You did or you didn't

Line 2

: LAMIST (this one by Ker)

Line 3

: Unprovoked damage control

Line 4

: Unecessarily apologetic.

Line 5

: Backtracking/Damage control.

Line 6

: Further Damage control.

1) It's hedgey? Like seriously? It obviously means that i didn't, ever, towncase springlullaby.
3, 4, 5, 6) Ok, next time i'll send everyone to fuck off just to make you happy. Or, like, not.

Honestly - you put effort into this case, but it's weak, reachy and loaded. This is worth analyzing - is this outside of your scumrange? Please link some of your scumgames.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

I replied to Raya because it was Raya pointing out that your 848 was town, while i think you could be able to fake it. It's not part of why i scumlean you, it's an opinion on whether or not that post was indicative of being town, so i asked Raya if he found your post tonally similar to Pine's. I think it isn't but that doesn't make you scum.

What's in good faith from springlullaby?

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Also, for the record, i went back to re-examine chloe after posting 904, and found out that Ame's scumcase is definitely tunnelvisioned, and based on personality frictions/omgus rather than genuine thoughts. This is 100% coming from a

conclusion before evidence

process, and contrary to popular belief i think this most often comes from town, not scum. The process of getting upset to someone scumreading you and confbiasing while reading their posts is a consequence of not knowing people's alignments - you do not get upset if their read on you is correct, rather you disengage or deflect the accusations elsewhere to stay away from the spotlight.

This does not apply to every scum player out there. In fact, i never back off from 1v1s as either alignment and can produce tunneled/backward reasoning as scum too, but that's what i want to verify about Ame's scumrange by checking her scumgames.

I wish i could have spoilertagged the quotes but unfortunately nested spoilers will break the bbcode.

The following are examples of how Ame easily overlooked similar behavior from Chloe whereas using the same evidence category to call me scum:

Like you changed it two times. First it was scum going after LHF vs scum pocketing her (literally the whole point of your original post was this), then it was to scum TMIing town vs scum chainsaw defending scum. And now it's people who are weird vs people who are not. You changed as you went along.

Here are more examples of you playing politically/with optics in mind btw:

Spoiler:

(1) I don't think i ever towncased springlullaby though.

I think there is a fracture around her slot, which makes her flip significative, not more likely to be any of the two - if i had to talk about that post alone.

I think it's more likely to flip red though. My scumread is based on her posts shortly after her introduction, a (admittedly very reachy) tinfoil theory about the quest ordering, and last but not least the role/xp requirement claim.

-Farkran

pedit: oh shit, i had started writing this like one hour ago, forgot the tab open, and now i'm like 20 posts behind. This was a response to Ame's 585

(2) Jemaine, what are your actual intentions? I might sometimes overlook detail but i am trying my best to exchange my views with others to figure out the best action by working with them. Is this your help?

Here you pull old farkran post to prove your point that he is unskilled...
You expect everyone to sheep you in Neighborizering and No capturing but you disappear instead of debating it. It is obvious that we don't follow you, when you never speak about perks of your plan. Do you hope that discrediting every other idea will make us pick yours out of elimination?
~Kerset

(3) Chloe, i scumlean you - i have no issues with you as a person. I feel the need to correct wrong opinions and providing my own, but i don't want you to stop talking.

As you can see, i'm not immune to mistakes though.

-Farkran

The dichotomy isn't described by that last sentence - i mean, those would be the scummy people who interacted poorly around spring. The true dichotomy is wk vs attack, and those can be sorted by spring flip.

Could you rephrase this? I don't know what it's saying. Who specifically would you scum read from Spring's flip based on the way she has been treated so far. Earlier you implied that you would scum read me and Lady upon a town flip. Is this the case? This is the third time I'm asking this btw.

As for the rpg, i want to see what hectic ends up concluding. And it's a fun read.

I'm referring to your 556. Did you mention Hectics cyoa thing somewhere?

(4)

Yes, sorry.

If springlullaby flips town, those who attacked her hard have higher scum equity and i'll be more incline to believe her most confident defenders have been TMIing her. If she flips scum, the strong attackers have less scum equity and i would look into those who attacked her attackers. Rarely scum do whiteknight their partners this early in the game - if they go about defending them, it's usually more subtle, such as a low-to-moderate chainsaw defense tactic.

That said, this does not guarantee a confident read on anyone, and currently my main reads are that springlullaby and conchorde are independently scummy for their dayplay. Lady Chloe, and

(5) to a lesser extent you

for wanting springlullaby as a leader, are dependent on her flip.

Also 556 is from Kerset, i think he's asking what RPG mechanics are you referring to, which would be xp and levelup.

-Farkran

@ame
The difference between you and chloe is that i scumlean chloe indipendently of springlullaby.

If springlullaby didn't exist, i would still scumlean chloe,

(6)

but i would likely townlean you

. The potential associative is there for both, but i'd look at you with more suspicion if springlul flips scum. Does that make sense as an explanation of my thought process?

I admit that i dislike springlul playstyle as either alignment, but i'm trying to analyze the slot impartially. I have no such distaste for chloe though, even if i still scumlean her.

Also raya, don't you think that scum would be able to fake being a mediator, wrt chloe 848? If you read that tonally, does it strike you as town as Pine's introductory plea? I think they ask for similar things but are immensely different tonewise.

Last but not least, i support hectic or raya for quest leader, as an alternative to myself.

-Farkran

Line 1

: "I don't think" is hedgey. You did or you didn't

Line 2

: LAMIST (this one by Ker)

Line 3

: Unprovoked damage control

Line 4

: Unecessarily apologetic.

Line 5

: Backtracking/Damage control.

Line 6

: Further Damage control.

COMPARE THE ABOVE VS THE BELOW

You have a lovely brain, Ame.

My main fear is we will not have the same option with Disable Strongman, again. A crucial town PR getting sabotaged in the Quest, another.

Leaving the possibility of the two outcomes above makes it hard to Quest and vote Neighborizer in good conscience.

Say, the two above outcomes occur, how may town best approach the game?

VOTE: Disable Strongman

Spoiler: Vote Count

Unofficial VC

[Capture] Flight of the Conchords (4)- Raya36, Lady Chloe*, Farkset, Ame
[Capture] springlullaby (4)- momo, Pine, Not Known 15, Hectic
[Capture] Lady Chloe (1)- mastina
[Capture] Hectic (1)- springlullaby
[End Day] (1) - Flight of the Conchords

Not voting (2)- Pink Ball, Ginngie

With 13 alive it takes 7 to reach a majority.

Deadline is in (expired on 2020-04-20 13:00:00)

Public Mechanic Vote

Disable Strongman (8)- Farkset, springlullaby, Raya36, Pine, Not Known 15, mastina, Ginngie, Ame
Neighborizer (3)- momo, Flight of the Conchords, Hectic
Train Cop (0)

Not voting (2)- Pink Ball, Lady Chloe*

I'm not sure whether or not Lady Chloe's unvote counts toward the capture or the mechanic.

@mod

what should we use to unvote?

Apologies for the confusion, the unvote was on FotC.

I clarify this now as I skim, since I am quite busy today.

Ame,

I acknowledge your claim, and I follow your train of thought on the capture, as I do with others who want to capture but am not quite convinced.

I want to strengthen my reads a bit more before I speak of them so openly.

Who am I to vote for, if not to avoid capturing?

[Farkset]

^ from Farkran

[Farkset]

Farkran,

I replied to Raya because it was Raya pointing out that your 848 was town, while i think you could be able to fake it. It's not part of why i scumlean you, it's an opinion on whether or not that post was indicative of being town, so i asked Raya if he found your post tonally similar to Pine's. I think it isn't but that doesn't make you scum.

What's in good faith from springlullaby?

-Farkran

Your stance bewilders me.

You have yet to voice why I am independently scum for springlullaby, yet you've spoke of this read originally as if it had all to do with my connection to springlullaby.

Someone you could believe is town stated that I were town, but you think the reason to townread me on such is misled. But it is not part of your scumlean on me? Nor is it scum-indicative on my part?

How you view me is non-committal, Farkran.

As for springlullaby, I believe she takes to me in good faith since her reads are committed stances and this is consistent with her approach to the game.

Answering to the bolded, since it is the main point of your objection:

No, that specific post does not make you scum. But it also doesn't make you town - in my opinion. I asked Raya what was the difference between your post and Pine's.

Why would you think that post in particular would make anyone read you as town, or scum? This is an interesting question tbh, i'd like to hear why you would think that i should scumread you based on that. Why would a player who scumleans you find scumminess in every single one of your posts?

-Farkran

[Farkset]

I am having trouble concluding who you speak about in the first paragraph, and how you connect the quoted posts to your assessment.

Do you think that your apologies in post [452[/post] were necessary? Or at least, as necessary/unnecessary as my apologies in post 818?

Do you think that complimenting Ame's Brain (353), or asking her questions about how you should behave as town (last lines of 353 and 781), were necessary or in any way indicative of you being part of a particular alignment?

The questions are rhetorical of course - none of that evidence points to town or scum for you, and it -correctly- wasn't used in a scumcase against you. However, they have been used as a scumcase against me, and that has much more to do with Ame being upset than indicative of a specific alignment. Like, she is clearly displaying an attempt to sort me, but she is combing the thread only to find evidence to support a specific result, which is scum!Farkset, rather than reading and deducing or comparing said evidence to my previous meta or other players, because her analysis stops immediately as soon as she finds something adequate to support her theory.

It's not a terrible push, because it can be part of the town mindset and desire to be correct, find scum, the hope that your teammates aren't so bad and wrong as to call you scum when you know you aren't. Can it be faked? absolutely, but it requires large amounts of effort and willpower to maintain it consistent. Hence why i want to compare her to her past scumgames.

-Farkran

pedit: like, i'm sorry that the conversation displeases you. I don't know what to do about that. There are 3 scum in this game, i think you are plausibly one of them. This is no offense to your persona or playstyle, and i wonder why you would think i am displeasing you. Where did i display a distaste of your behavior as a person, rather than a scumlean of your play? Disagreement is not distaste, i would think?

Also, my point about your post 848 is exactly that it does

not

impact my opinion on your alignment, and i asked Raya why he would think it should impact his own. It has little to do with you, rather it has to do with Raya.

[Farkset]

Well then - i got that impression from your comments about distaste and displeasure when talking to me, glad to hear we aren't going to cross a line here. It was never my intention.

Have a nice breakfast.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Two pages over 24h isn't much in 13p game, especially in day 1. Mini normal that you are currently hosting has got 3 pages in the same period of time. I don't buy this excuse.
~ker

[Farkset]

Ame, i have already addressed all of your points. Hectic was able to understand what i was saying in 805, if you cannot understand that there's nothing i can do about it. Your 893 is just another reiteration of you asking me to have a level of confidence on my read of springlullaby that i cannot possibly have at this point in time.

Open your mind, reread, and find the answers for yourself. I am not going to engage you again on the same questions.

Still waiting for your scumgames, i'm going to search for them anyways later but i'd be grateful if you could save me the effort.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Spoiler:

<Your daily FARKSCUM interlude>

In a game where scum have incentive to doubt others at any possible angle

Very good point.++

If you read Farkset. I mean

really

read it *cougPinecough* you'll see that you'll get a vague ok impression at first, because the slot speaks a lot.
BUT if you filter for what is said, the net total of about all their posts repeat a same single message: "everyone can be suspicious".
He has up until now, even on me who is "50/50", provided exactly zero read.

</Your daily FARKSCUM interlude>

^This

Are you like for real? This is obvious level burden of proficiency...
~ker

[Farkset]

Do you have no completed scumgames in your records, Ame?

Mini Normal 2121 - Ame VT

Post 1733 - Inquisitive case against FL and una, turned out wrong on both. Displays strong confidence in her reads, although unjustified for a player who replaced in and announced a catchup of over 1700 posts that was then completed within the subsequent 3 hours.
Post 1735 - Call to arms for her townreads, similar to the last line of 887.
Post 1919 - 1 out of 4 correct, also confidence is waning
Post 1922 - So you are capable of searching and providing scumgames when you want to. Why did you refuse to answer me when i asked?

(A)

Post 1941 - Why profii and una are town now?
Post 2040 - Similar accusations that you're moving towards Farkset here
Post 2062 - Can you see how you can misplace confidence in your reads, for so little reason?

Micro 922 - Ame VT

(also Hectic town here, reminder for later)
Post 138 - Why are you mad at iconeum here? Is he any different than springlullaby, whose only scumreads are against people who scumread her? Is he any different than you, who refused to answer him there, and refused to provide a scumgame when asked here?
Post 184 - Similar line of aggressiveness as here.
Post 368 - You clearly like wallposting and color coding. I appreciate it, although i think you are very capable of producing this as scum too.
Post 519 - Very fun post, although very strong confidence for so little accuracy.
Post 631 - Improving accuracy-wise. #632 is a meta-dive that you aren't willing to do on me here. Why?

(B)

Post 861 - Good post, good intuition. How is springlullaby not giving in to an easy claim here?
Post 1198 - Good post, also similar to what you're trying to do here.

Mini Normal 2118 - Ame Town Neighbor

(also hectic scum here, reminder for later)
Post 114 + Post 127 + Post 152 - You can produce readlists, taking note of that. Can you post your readlist for this game?
Post 138 - Yeah, i agree. If done within the realm of reason as you are doing here. Surface, blank omgus is NAI.
Post 214 - So you know what a "lean" is, why aren't you using that knowledge in this game?
Post 689 - This is a very good post from you, that once again leaves me wondering why you aren't making use of meta in this game, or why you aren't using the same measure against overconfidence.
Post 923 - You're clearly fitting a player profile of town tunneler.
Post 1228 - You clearly get better in the lategame both in terms of accuracy and townspew, this is the second time that sheeping you would have produced a victory but it slipped away from your hands

Mini Normal 2115 - Ame Tracker

So yeah i was about to check this too but i got tired after 3 games, i think the pattern is clear. Conclusions:

1) You tend to tunnel on players and build strong confidence for little reason on your reads, looking for evidence supporting premade conclusions. Checks.
2) Re-evaluation is outside of your townrange unless meta-diving or lategame, where your accuracy is also improving greatly. Checks.
3) You are highly influenced by personal friction. Checks (See A and B)
4) You tend to believe surface-level reasoning too easily, such as unprovoked PR claims. Checks.

It's unfortunate that you do not have a scumgame to produce - barring any alt that i am not aware of - but i think your behavior here is at least fitting for town!you. Townreading and testing springlullaby also makes sense coming from you, but i advise to learn from your past mistakes. Misplaced confidence can be catastrophical as a charismatic townplayer, i speak from experience.

Town!Ame chance: ~90%, scum!Ame: ~10% (base scum EV: 23%)

I've been writing this for more than one hour. I think it's a good sample data for sorting Ame by meta. Good night.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

I'll answer ame as soon as i get to the desktop.

Quick things to note:
- 959 is a bad vote with NK15 progression
- 962 is clearly made with the intent of driving leader competition out of the quest and it's likely the first thing that can make springlul and ame disaligned
- 960+963 why you aren't committing to one of the main wagons now?

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Oh and before i go on another wall answering you ame, i'd like to ask one thing that is the basis of my argument, and if we disagree on that there is no way i could explain my pov

Do you agree with me that, at least before the farkset-ame 1v1, the playerlist was fractured around springlullaby, taking strong stances in either direction?

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Fark, my issue with you is that (a) you're not actually addressing the points that I'm making and (b) you're misconstruing my motivations.

You blame farkran that after dozens of replies, he sitll didn't answer points that you make but meantime you never answered my 889...
~ker

[Farkset]

Ok, nevermind 969. This will be as clear as i can make it, and it will be an exercise in communication.

Spoiler: Springlullaby Vote Progression

mmm, so is train cop a bonus skill? Do everyone receive a train cop option at night?

mod:

Do I understand correctly that training at night would nullify all other action beside "train cop"?

^If the above is true than train cop is the better option.
1. Have everybody train
2. Have everybody select a target to cop

= 100% no nk, if other mechanics are not at play

If else, strongman is also an ok option.
Neighbor is useless.

capture: momo

Ad hominem.

That's a great characteristic of.... OMGUS I THINK.

CAPTURE: HECTIC

-> Setup speculation that is wordy and wrong, then vote for bad ability.
-> Fluff and attempted buddying.
-> Afraid of "starting anything".

Yeah, I did my job for the day I think.

Anyway.

VOTE: Ginngie

I like that Pine vote actually.

HURT: Farkan

Why is a Pine vote weird?

Also + scum for the post preemptively justifying how I was going to flip town.

VOTE: END DAY

HURT: FARKSRAN

Can you notice that all the votes from springlullaby are reactionary attacks to people who voted her? There is no trace of scumhunting, the only scum are people who vote springlullaby at any given time. This is also evident by how she stopped attacking Ame now that they are on the same side, for no reason at all since Ame is still the same "dumb player who proposed stupid anti-town strategies", in springlullaby's words. (*see below for the quest leader fight i just recently mentioned)

---

Spoiler: Springlullaby Claim Progression

Ame, are you soft-claiming something?

(1)

Just say it now because you aren't going anywhere past N1 with that bullshit.

Ok, is Ame village idiot or scum?

In any case, if we have town NK, ame needs to be vigged.

(2)

Also, everyone vote disable strongman.

I will repeat it, you ask stupid question.

What does my PR skills has got to do with anything?
I have to earn a leader vote from you? LOL.

Ad hominem.

That's a great characteristic of.... OMGUS I THINK.

CAPTURE: HECTIC

-> Setup speculation that is wordy and wrong, then vote for bad ability.
-> Fluff and attempted buddying.
-> Afraid of "starting anything".

Yeah, I did my job for the day I think.

Actually Hectic and Farkset can be scum together again.

OK The axis of evil:

AME
FARKAN
HECTIC

Ame:
Bullshit from start of the day to the last series of posts.
Cop training is obviously anti town.
> In a PR heavy game, cop training does nothing for town beside false positives.
> It's however great for scum because it consistently out PR's.
>This has been discussed already, can AME be vigged?

Hectic:
Seriously zero contribution but a lame vote on FOC.
And a ton.

Farkan:
The last case is just I'm taken aback by how far it fetch.
It also contain a scumslip as I did not know scum had a PT.


The rest of town better wake up soon.

I'm still confortable with my ginngie vote on a behavior only basis: nothing but reactionary content.
Farkset's last is just terrible.


Also, claim: town voyeur.

(3)

I have an upgrade in 1 XP that's why I want leadership btw.

I have an upgrade in 1 XP that's why I want leadership btw.

I don't believe this

-Farkran

Actually you are right. I misread.

(4)

Do you want to fish more?
Realistically, what do you wish to gain in that line of questionning.

... ^ This needs to be vigged. NK'd whatever.

No rational choice can be expected if town.
+ Bad read?

Ame,

I acknowledge your claim, and I follow your train of thought on the capture, as I do with others who want to capture but am not quite convinced.

I want to strengthen my reads a bit more before I speak of them so openly.

Who am I to vote for, if not to avoid capturing?

Lady Chloe, enough.

Plenty of material already.
Make up your mind on your own and provide an actual read.



@Ame, from my understanding, you can't be vigged.

(5)

This day needs to stop ASAP.
I see nothing good coming out of it.

(6)

Farkscum is trying to drawn out the thread with spam.

Their bullshit reasons has been debunked multiple times, by multiple people.

More bullshit from Farkscum:

> Off course I'm "survivalistic, I'm town. And a PR.
> If "survivalistic" was a valid argument, then by by their own logic Farkset should vote themselves to prove that they are town.

Another instance of the bullshit that permeates their entire ISO.

The numbers represent the progression of springlullaby, where she goes from fishing, to claim unprovoked and flaily, to attacking fishers to forward her inconsistent scumcase on players who voted her.

---

Is this a towny slot to any of you? Have you actually read her ISO? I don't think it is possible that this will ever ring town

with a strong confidence

. This is a jestery slot, with an unprovoked claim of voyeur (bad PR utility-wise), a flail while soft-counterclaimed (501) and no pro-town behavior whatsoever. As i said, to answer Ame:

the only reason to townread Springlullaby is for how other people behaved around the slot

. This does

NOT

mean springlullaby is town or that i ever towncased her. It means that, IF she is town, we should look into the people who EITHER

TMIed her town

, OR

pushed her as lhf.

This does not mean everyone.

If she flips scum, instead, we should look into the people who EITHER

supported/defended her with little reason

, OR

distanced from those people, but without leading the wagon on springlul.

I color coded the subsets of people i'm referring to: the same color means that it's the same subset of people, different colors mean they are different people. The only thing they have in common is

the fact that they interacted awkwardly with springlullaby.

Ok so far?

Now, on to display all of these circumstances:

Spoiler: FOC

HURT: Springlullaby
Scummiest attempt to get townread I have seen in a while. I shouldn’t need to explain this vote and won’t because I’m about to sleep, but I’ll write up my thoughts tmmrw after I meta dive spring.

Should be noted that Hectic is taking a very distinct approach to this game...playing in a highly questioning manner. Haven’t played with him before, but I think his slot will prove to be readable by comparing the questioning tone with his recent games.

Springullaby how did you write the instances of that list? Literally, what did you do to write it?

Also hectic how confident would you say you are in pinkball alignment right now?

I have a 2-sided theory that i need to explore

-Farkran

Not very. I didn't like 292

Ok.

So, hectic, why was your first thought to townread springlullaby based on the switched positions between you and pinkball? My first thought wasn't that.

I thought that scum could have been discussing joining quests or not in their PT, pinkball could have agreed there before you and before outing it in the main thread and that's how springlullaby parsed it first.

Also, i would think that's a more likely reason for springlullaby to correct that mistake without announcing it. If she wanted to sort the quest takers in order of joining and noticed an error, she could have announced the mistake. Instead, if the mistake could imply a scumslip, she'd just hope nobody would notice.

Now, if i was editing a readlist, i would copypaste the playerlist in a notepad and then copypaste individual names in the order i want them to be. Often, i sort people as i meet them in the playerlist. Like this: 1st player, townread; 2nd player, scumread; etc. I asked springlullaby to explain how she wrote the list because this process can generate errors, so it is still plausible that pinkball got above because he is also above in the original playerlist.

However, it surprises me that Hectic didn't think of the scum PT when he is scumleaning both of the slots involved. I don't know if i should consider this a townslip from hectic.

Anyways, this is a very tinfoil-y theory about what happened, but i think it will be worth to check it for validity when a flip occurs. Today, it's probably worth it to just block springlullaby and see what happens.

HURT: springlullaby

-Farkran

HURT: springlullaby

@Fark
@Hectic
@momo

You guys never try to evolve or learn from your mistakes, do you? Always surface level reads and always trying to fit the game narrative to your preconceived delusional way of seeing things.

P.S. If Ame is town aligned then add her to the list above.

-Jemaine

So, you pushed someone to L-1 and they claimed a power role to avoid being captured.
Just like I said would happen.
Have you realized it's a bad idea yet, or are you all still being dense?
This day needs to end, and it should end without without using the capture.
We wait until lynch becomes available.

- Bret

i think she is the type of player to be excessively

stubborn

as either alignment - pretty

similar to me

-

Thank you very much.

Also the push on lullaby is B.A.D

Now add scumreading us too and everyone else will get what I'm talking about (but not you)

Flight of the Conchords - I don't like TSTBS posts from either alignment, and being a secret hydra i'd assume it comes from experienced players, not newbies. This is the main reason i'm scumleaning them instead of giving them the benefit of doubt.

I mean this is bad. You say you don't like the idea. YOU. You assumed it come from experienced players (when only one completed themed game was required). So you don't know who Bret is and you don't know why he picked neighborizer and you don't understand why leaving strongman in play was no issue for him, and you built your whole case around those unknowns.

Want more? mmK

1) If the 3 scum decide to join the quest, they will have lylo-equivalent voting power for the leader, making it more likely for the leader to be mafia, resulting in a catastrophical failure because they would get xp, gift, and free reins on the kill.

The kill part is solved in the captured version, since the captured player cannot strongman (which i assume it would bypass the roleblock by capture?)

today for a lack of xp.

I also assume that mafia do not start with more than 1 xp.

I'm not sure how much i would place my faith in "Each player starts with 1 XP unless otherwise specified, and players can never have less than 0 XP. Players are always aware of how much XP they have." but... probably they start with 1 xp, or at least most of them do.

1) First bolded segment you made two assumptions. You assumed scum would want to use strongman on N1 and you assumed strongman bypasses the capture blocking effect

2) Second bolded segment you assumed none of the 3 mafia members starts with more than 1 xp when a more reasonable assumption would be for the mod to give one of them 2 xp at the start of the game if they needed to strongman from the beginning which in itself was a bad assumption unless you assume we have more than one protective role from the start too. You even said it yourself, You're not sure how much faith you'd put in your interpretation of the mod's declaration but you still insist it's probably 1. Then you say at least most of them when most of 3 is 2 meaning 1 could have started with more than 1 xp which makes your whole argument look like horseshit when viewed from that angle.

Now should I assume you are a good player? Because if so I find myself obliged to assume you know what you're doing in which case I assume you are scum spreading havoc.

I suggest you step aside and put kerset on for a while. Maybe she can remedy the situation.

-Jemaine

Notice how FOC becomes aggressive specifically against slots who are defending springlullaby, without any kind of progression on them or any reason to townread springlullaby so far? Particularly in the last two posts - is there a particular reason to attack us so fiercely, using our push on springlullaby as the

only

attempt to sort our slot? However, a vote does not appear until our wagon becomes popular, in post 899.

Spoiler: momo

HURT: Springlullaby
Scummiest attempt to get townread I have seen in a while. I shouldn’t need to explain this vote and won’t because I’m about to sleep, but I’ll write up my thoughts tmmrw after I meta dive spring.

Should be noted that Hectic is taking a very distinct approach to this game...playing in a highly questioning manner. Haven’t played with him before, but I think his slot will prove to be readable by comparing the questioning tone with his recent games.

Now i thought momo was one of the lhf pushers at the time - he isn't very active, makes sense as scum if springlullaby is town. This read has weakened over time, but it was there when i was talking about weird interactions around springlullaby.

Spoiler: Ame

I also strongly support making Spring the leader. I'd like to see what they do. I still get mad weird vibes from everyone trying to get everyone into the quest though so I'm still not joining and I suggest that others do the same.

This is what i found dangerous coming from Ame. How in the world would you possibly trust springlullaby as a quest leader, after having experienced first-hand her scumhunting and terrible claim timing? Now i have changed my mind on Ame/Springlullaby being a possible team, because in 962 she still fears Ame for gaining leader popularity, which makes me think they are truly disaligned rather than theatrics. But that happened way after my case on springlullaby.

Spoiler: Lady Chloe, but also an individual case on springlullaby

I have already claimed to have Quested.

VOTE: End Day

VOTE: END DAY

This is ostensibly the first post from Chloe after Springlullaby wagon got to 5 people (VC 1.4, post 525). Springlullaby immediately sheeped it. The point about town not losing xp by being captured had already been pointed out, so springlullaby only fears the roleblock? As a voyeur? Why isn't she fearing the quest sabotage then, which has a strictly worse effect on town and

is directly controlled by mafia

?

Spoiler: NK15

HURT: springlullaby
Enough of this BS.

@NK15 is this vote because springlullaby irritated you or do you have an AI read on her?

They are either overconfident and rude town or powerwolfing scum. The second is a real possibility, and that one is higher than default, so yes, I have a scumread on them. A weak one. If we had access to lynch, which we sadly don`t, a lynch would be highly recommended because them being alive is heavily anti-town.
And about questing: Town should not want that sabotage being around at Night 2+ because losing all stored xp is... too bad at that point. I can get behind the reasoning for a day 1/night 1 quest but after that, the potential damage is just too big.

So I think I came up with a game-breaking Train Cop strategy.

No Capture Version
7 players go on the quest
We decided publically who will be the leader. The leader is free to use any action they choose.
The other 6 questers Train
Each of the 6 non-questers is assigned to Train cop one of the (non-leader) questers.

Capture Version
7 players go on the quest including the captured player.
The leader is decided publically and is free to use any action they choose.
The other 5 questers Train
Each of the 6 non-questers is assigned to Train cop the 6 non-captured questers including the leader. (Alternatively one of the questers remains unassigned)

In this way, mafia can't join the quest without being forced to Train! So at least one mafia will have to remain outside of the quest in order to do the kill. And the others inside the quest will not be able to use their abilities! So mafia has to decide to either A) be a part of the quest or B) use their abilities.

What if mafia is assigned to train cop the mafia inside the quest so they're free to do what they want

Indeed, but that's not the primary goal. The primary goal is forcing mafia to have to either use their ability/kill OR be inside the quest, not both.

Like even if they aren't assigned to their partner, they can still use their ability and simply say that the person they were assigned to trained.

Oh I see, we can't account for that, but it's less likely than is that they'll be assigned to their partner.

What I like about this is that if there is a kill, we know ~100% that it was one of the people outside of the quest that did it. (~accept for the potential of mafia being assigned to their partner)

It sounds nice, however there are several potential problems with it

1) If the 3 scum decide to join the quest, they will have lylo-equivalent voting power for the leader, making it more likely for the leader to be mafia, resulting in a catastrophical failure because they would get xp, gift, and free reins on the kill. The kill part is solved in the captured version, since the captured player cannot strongman (which i assume it would bypass the roleblock by capture?) today for a lack of xp. I also assume that mafia do not start with more than 1 xp. I'm not sure how much i would place my faith in

"Each player starts with 1 XP unless otherwise specified, and players can never have less than 0 XP. Players are always aware of how much XP they have.

"

but... probably they start with 1 xp, or at least most of them do.

2) Any mafia outside of the quest can kill freely and claim that the player assigned to them trained, even if town. There is no valid way to be sure all mafia are placed on the quest, so how do we know what happened? This is also not considering the possibility that mafia outside is assigned to check mafia inside, which would be a really bad result to trust later on.

I think the risk for disaster is too high compared to the benefit. Effort put into mechbreaking the setup is still town points to me though - i don't think scum would try that much to validate a train cop strategy

-Farkran

... and some players cannot afford to train cop because they have a role like pacifist... then we have town autofarmers... if they are suspected we have a false guilty...

It also contain a scumslip as I did not know scum had a PT.

?????????????????????????

It also contain a scumslip as I did not know scum had a PT.

?????????????????????????

Did you know scum had daychat?

Yes.

15. All private topics have daytalk. Any private topics are welcome to request a Discord server.

It doesn't indicate that scum has a daychat PT.

It says that all PT`s have daytalk.
Mafia have a scum PT in approximately 99% of all games.

^This is really bad.

No, it`s not. Don`t disable lurkers.

So I've been thinking about this and I think it's best I claim. When I die, I become a treestump and the lynch mechanic activates. I've been trying to play in a way so as to draw the night kill, but with two claims now and seeing as FOC's, in particular, suggests a strong PR, I think that's probably not happening. So I'm claiming now to suggest that perhaps vig can aim for me tonight? I think there may be another way to activate the mechanic also because it says it will activate when I die

unless

it's already activated.

Are you insane? Do you want scum to auto - win by roleblocking you without end?

Do NOT join the quest, at least.

HURT: Farkset
The motivation does indeed seem to be hidden here. Probably scum?
Also, the leader on the quest should be me, because I am town.

I initially thought NK15 was one of the lhf pushers - now, the last NK15 vote happened

after

the explanation of my case against springlullaby, but this is a pretty terrible progression to make post 959 on, and it already started on post 813 where he is trying to remove Ame from questing because… why? What does roleblocking have to do with Ame's claim?

At the time of my case against springlullaby, how could

any

of these people have such a strong confidence on springlullaby's alignment, in either direction, based on the content provided? It ringed immensely weird to me, and that's why i still think springlullaby should 1. Never, ever be quest leader, 2. be captured today because she's more plausibly scum than town, 3. learn her alignment as soon as possible and analyze it to produce a solve.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Mistake in the FOC spoiler: slots attacking springlullaby, not defending

[Farkset]

Please verify the info I'm giving with whether you think I just said is accurate,

It is accurate.

@Farkset

, given Spring's outline of her voting pattern here, do you still maintain the below?

Can you notice that all the votes from springlullaby are reactionary attacks to people who voted her? There is no trace of scumhunting, the only scum are people who vote springlullaby at any given time.

It's not accurate and it does not counter my argument.

momo = i concede the point, but rvs is not scumhunting.
hectic = hectic had just recently called springlullaby obnoxious and abrasive (162, 166). That's not scumhunting, that's a personality driven vote, and nothing that hectic did up to that point was scummy.
gingie = he had just refused to have springlullaby as a leader (401). I can concede this is a joke vote from both sides, but it's not scumhunting.
Farkset = i had just recently voted her (454).

All votes except momo are reactionary and do not constitute attempts to solve.

I still fail to see how anyone could have a strong townread of springlullaby at any given time and i'm surprised we're still talking about this as if it is plausible to believe otherwise. I would also be very surprised to see less than 2 scumflips on my current wagon based on the momentum that developed recently, but you do you.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Note:

strong townread

is the keyword there. I can buy a net nullread, or even a townlean on springlullaby based on omgus and jestery behavior - i would disagree, but that's plausible. I cannot buy the confidence and aggressiveness with which she has been supported/defended.

-Farkran

pedit: yes, give me a minute

[Farkset]

Townread {Hectic} - solid metaread, still have to analyze the recent scumgame i found but i think i know hectic
Townlean {Pine, Raya, Ame*} - liked pine introduction and followups, he and raya are tonally the most genuine slots; Ame see below
Null {mastina, momo, Lady Chloe**} - mastina is a lurker i didn't expect to see in this game after spectating TM2020, i think she wil be readable as soon as she produces content; momo is pending a springlul flip tbh; chloe see below
Nullscum {pinkball, gingie} - very little content from both, no scumhunting, tinfoil theory on pinkball
Scum {springlul, FOC, NK15}

*Pending analysis of scumgame, i need to verify if efforting this much as scum and fueling battles is within her scumrange, otherwise it's a reasonable townlean based on her towngames.

**I'm not sure if i like my scumlean on Lady Chloe anymore based on my recent exchange with her and the addition of NK15 to the scumpool so i will place her in the null tier for now.

Also from my notes:
Mastina vs Chloe disaligned
Ame vs springlullaby disaligned
Hectic vs springlullaby disaligned

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Farkest, do you notice anything peculiar about 974?

I see momo agreeing with me on everything, obviously i find it ok logicwise

@raya: nothing out of the ordinary

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Townread {Hectic} - solid metaread, still have to analyze the recent scumgame i found but i think i know hectic
Townlean {Pine, Raya, Ame*} - liked pine introduction and followups, he and raya are tonally the most genuine slots; Ame see below
Null {mastina, momo, Lady Chloe**} - mastina is a lurker i didn't expect to see in this game after spectating TM2020, i think she wil be readable as soon as she produces content; momo is pending a springlul flip tbh; chloe see below
Nullscum {pinkball, gingie} - very little content from both, no scumhunting, tinfoil theory on pinkball
Scum {springlul, FOC, NK15}

*Pending analysis of scumgame, i need to verify if efforting this much as scum and fueling battles is within her scumrange, otherwise it's a reasonable townlean based on her towngames.

**I'm not sure if i like my scumlean on Lady Chloe anymore based on my recent exchange with her and the addition of NK15 to the scumpool so i will place her in the null tier for now.

Also from my notes:
Mastina vs Chloe disaligned
Ame vs springlullaby disaligned
Hectic vs springlullaby disaligned

-Farkran

So you have more on the scumside than you do on the townside. Does that seem strange to you or do you typically find more people scummy than town?

Most people here have one scumread, that is rather concerning.
~ker

[Farkset]

I'm sorry Ame but you are taking everything at surface level, you refuse to get my points and you are furthering an argument for the sake of being right rather than it being useful to the town.

Springlullaby progression on hectic is terrible and the vote only appeared when hectic talked bad of her, if that was a genuine scumread she would have voted him in response to the supposedly scummy actions, not when he called her obnoxious and abrasive.

Gingie refused to acknowledge springlullaby as quest leader, this is the only serious thing that happened during that exchange - otherwise, once again, the vote would have appeared after those buddying attemptes (which i don't consider as such, ftr) instead. To note here, springlullaby didn't even mention the buddying attempts. Her expanation for the vote is 415.

My reasoning was solid, and understood by at least two people, as you should have noticed. For the third time, springlullaby's vote appeared after being provoked, not on a scumread.

Can you see how far you are sticking your head out to defend your desire to be correct? What you should do here is:
1. Listen to my point of view and explain your own for the purpose of sorting and being sorted, not imposing your reads onto mine - this is highlighted by the "do you maintain your claim" line, which can be paraphrased as "you're wrong, sucker, do you admit it or shall we go on for another year?"
2. Even if i was wrong, and i am not, my main point against springlullaby is still valid and you're doing anything in your power to avoid confronting me on it: there is no reason to townread her so strongly.

Quit your tunnel and open your eyes.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Given that this springlullaby wagon isn't going anywhere despite being the correct choice, can we compromise on trying to find the 2nd and 3rd scum?

I am fine voting for FOC or NK15 atm. Please state your interest. 2 days left to deadline.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

@Ame Why did you wait with reply to my post until spring gives you answer for that? I asked you in 889 and you reply me with 980. I wanted you to tell what you like in him by yourself.
~ker

[Farkset]

I'm not a tunneler!

I have nothing to add

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Still available to vote any among spring/foc/nk15

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Oh, right. I forgot that you know that spring is town and i am scum. My bad.

Seriously though, you cared for none of my arguments, your line of questioning was loaded to the point that you pushed your case against things that other people understood when i first said them. You think of yourself as better than everyone else though, and after pages of 1v1, you are still denying the validity of my points and whiteknighting a player for no reason at all, defending springlullaby with words that aren't even her own. You want to believe in your own theory so hard that you refuse any alternative.

If i wasn't pretty much like that myself when tunneling, i would omgus you hard. This is why being town sucks. Now i'm done for good, i'm letting other people speak.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

So, this is Ame's scumgame

It takes only a quick glance to notice that she is fully capable of displaying effort and complexity as scum, as well as demanding/pretending leadership. I respect that. There are a few elements of note that occur as different, plausibly, from her towngames. In a way, she is very, very similar to how i play, although considerably less emotional overall.

lol this comes off as...salty

? tw too to a lesser extent.

It's like I took two potenial MLes of the table and you're upset about / trying to doubt case it

She cannot hide every trace of added knowledge from her posts, and with that she is able to recognize town reactions beacuse she knows they come from town beforehand - this is different than what she's doing in her other towngames and here.

As I said, I rely heavily on meta to gain an understanding of a person and I usually spend an absurd amount of time nitpicking the early pages and digging deep into each person's background. I just haven't had enough time to do so and I'm not confident in my reads until then.

As i already mentioned in my previous analysis, she is heavily reliant on meta and her scum!self knows this and fakes it properly. In this game she has openly refused to use meta as a tool for solving, i would expect scum!her to do it/lie about it instead. This is not a hard game to sort by meta, since most of the vocal players have a very transparent meta archive, and the others are just not worth/impossible to metadive (alts, lowpost lurkers, old players returning).

Spoiler: Ame progression in the purgatory game

VOTE: Amrun

Last check in before deadline. On the train and surprisingly refreshed.

I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that both am and wooper are scum. woopers initial am case didn't really make sense and one the points he used to town read Elmo was based on the reverse logic that am was scum. That being said, I think he's been pushing her enough that it's less likely distancing than is. And I prefer to keep him since he has been actively engaged whereas Am has been more on the periphery.

( Sorry if wrong Am I honestly just haven't had the time to thoroughly dig into you :[ )

Boop

VOTE: STRQ

VOTE: Amrun

Yes, I'm fine with going. I just want to make sure these things are accounted for:
-Elmo provides reasoning for her reads.
-Tai and Summer explain their S_S read in detail.
-Summer provides details on the contradictory meta evidence against Looker.
-Q fleshes out his thought process behind his wooper read at the EoD.

Please don't let any of these things go unanswered

I had a behemoth in the works, but I'll condense it to the main points that I think are worthwhile:

Implo | Looker > pops > S_S

::

Amrun, Elmo, STRQ

Amrun and SQRT were Ame's scumpartners. She is a solid busser, and a player that can will get trapped in the "i must be correct" fallacy when faced with it. Subconsciously, this player profile has to appear correct on what they're doing. They will not back off of a scum wagon, instead making sure she's on it when it happens. They're afraid of looking bad, but more than that they really, really, really want to be correct and get praised for it. I am also like that, so i understand perfectly what it means. A quick meta check will easily prove my words true.

Ame is very likely town. The player profile is a perfect match.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Hectic Scumgame

He's... improved. A lot. I wish Nacho could see this when metadiving Hectic again, after towncasing him hard in undertale because of his "bad" scum meta. Some things can be noted here too:

Post 291 - Insomnia was his scumpartner. Never thrown a vote in that direction. Matches my memory of his other scumgames, hectic is an antibusser.
Post 303 - scum!Hectic has no issues voting onto a popular wagon, from my memory town!Hectic is way more hesitant. Then again, he later retracted it and stareted a new wagon on town (Post 405), but ultimately ended up in the counterwagon to scum (Post 1091) so i think it's fairly solid.
Post 1677 - I think i have never seen town!hectic asking for a game to end quickly - this denotes a certain pressure to get it over with, and subsequent relief when good things happen (Post 1765).
Post 1678 - Misuse of hyperboles such as "literally a scumclaim!", town!Hectic is never that confident.

Generally speaking

- scum!Hectic also doesn't have the heart to gimmick nearly as much as town!Hectic has.

I am not confident i would catch hectic in that game if i didn't read it

after

it was over and all flips were available to me, but i'm fairly sure scum!hectic would already have voted me, or pushed stronger on springlullaby assuming she's town rather than unvoting. Town!Ame is clearly the kill from scum!Hectic in this scenario (for being the player most listened to, and one of the top defenders of springlullaby), so i don't think he would care about looking bad by pushing the mislynch. I confirm my townlean on Hectic, perhaps a bit less confident than before, but he's still my quest leader.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

HURT: springlullaby
Enough of this BS.

@NK15 is this vote because springlullaby irritated you or do you have an AI read on her?

They are either overconfident and rude town or powerwolfing scum

. The second is a real possibility, and that one is higher than default, so yes,

I have a scumread on them

. A weak one. If we had access to lynch, which we sadly don`t, a lynch would be highly recommended because them being alive is heavily anti-town.
And about questing: Town should not want that sabotage being around at Night 2+ because losing all stored xp is... too bad at that point. I can get behind the reasoning for a day 1/night 1 quest but after that, the potential damage is just too big.

15. All private topics have daytalk. Any private topics are welcome to request a Discord server.

It doesn't indicate that scum has a daychat PT.

It says that all PT`s have daytalk.
Mafia have a scum PT in approximately 99% of all games.

^This is really bad.

No, it`s not. Don`t disable lurkers.

HURT: Farkset
The motivation does indeed seem to be hidden here.

Probably scum?

Also, the leader on the quest should be me, because I am town.

@Spring @FoC @NK could you address the discrepancies Farkran pointed out regarding your progression? Basically, can you walk us through your thought processes?

There are no discrepancies. About you: Train can be roleblocked. If mafia has a roleblocker they can prevent your role from being upgraded, forever.
About Farkset/springlullaby: Both exhibit questionable behaviour. BOTH.

It is extremely likely that they are not town together. There`s a good case against Farkran though, based on what they said not matching what they said later.... about their motivations...

For these reasons, I am obviously not ok with spring being leader.

Leader:Ame

This is a progression i'm most worried about tbh. NK15 goes from having a scumread on springlullaby (initially weak, in his words), to attacking her multiple times throughout the thread (indicating a continued dislike of the slot, genuine or not), up to ultimately perform a full 180° in post 959 by voting on the player who's most fiercely attacking springlullaby. He does not mention the roleclaim by springlullaby, instead uses "hidden motivations" and "wording inconsistency" as a case against me, while maintaining serious doubts on springlullaby. Why don't you understand the motivations behind my case against springlullaby, if your opinion of her was similar to mine? Why would you shift the wagon momentum away from springlullaby to block me instead? Have you noticed something you didn't like in my case against springlullaby? Where? What are your reasons to trust Ame defending your scumread, as opposed to trust me attacking your scumread?

My vote can be considered on NK15 as well, if town can muster some will to play as opposed to read pages and pages of 1v1s between me and Ame which is very likely TvT.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Mastina ban
Looks like it's true.

Chloe, why do you townread FotC?

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Ame is manipulable? lol ok sure, after 5 pages of 1v1 where she almost didn't read any of my posts, went straightly against at least 2 other people's opinions not including me, and concluded with the same thoughts she had at the beginning of our argument, i definitely agree that she's one of the most manipulable slots here

---

@Chloe, do you disagree that FOC has been dramatically awkward around springlullaby? Set aside our disagreement on springlullaby herself - look at FOC's aggressiveness when they talk about me vs springlullaby and where that aggressiveness lean. Does that come from town to you? Why? Where do you think they get their confidence in their read? They haven't been casing any of the parts in the 1v1, they just offered a straight answer.

About post 651, why do you think they offered it as a reason to stop the day? I mean, to me it's kinda obvious that they're trying to defend/pocket springlullaby - she was being the top wagon at the time and ending the day (see VC 1.5 in post 650).
The statement offered in 651 is false, and if they were thinking as it has been demonstrated earlier, but aside from that it's not backed up by an explanation nor a vote - instead, they focus on defending springlullaby. They switched onto voting me only in post 899, when my wagon was gaining popularity in words and votes. If it was in their interest to capture scum (i am "incredibly, extraordinarily scummy" by their own words), don't you think they would have done so earlier?

I don't think 709 and 815 are AI to be honest, but i have only recently started my experience playing in hydras so i wouldn't know how a scum hydra would coordinate. I have to say, however, that i have seen similar dissonance in a town hydra so you may have a point here. The same could be said about the other 3 posts you mention, two paragraphs below. It's peculiar though that up to 706 they apparently didn't have us as scum, otherwise they wouldn't ask Kerset to "remedy the situation" - that's a pointless statement to throw at your biggest and highest scumread - it's not like one head can be scum while the other is not.

The softclaim in 741 - i don't know what to make of that but i don't think it should be town AI as you display it. This is clearly me confbiasing them at this point, but that claim can also be used to validate nk-and-action distancing (no sabotage because useless, etc). 4 xp is a weird cost for a VT-like claim, but if they have other means to gain exp it could make sense.

1031 is a not-so-subtle push against my slot, why do you see it as anything else? This is NAI by itself, though - it's only scummy when you pair it with my first paragraph about post 651.

All in all, my staple point for scumreading them is -once again - their very awkward interactions with the springlullaby slot. All the other points that have been brought up in the past are circumstantial - i can get how they would omgus us for calling them twtbw and wrong (even though i admitted my mistake about the xp loss on capture), but that would be a reason to scumread us, not to townread springlullaby, whereas their main sentiment is the latter, as shown by 651+717+724. If you believe you have found scum beyond any reasonable doubt, that would be your main concern, not whiteknighting a different slot.

If you think i am sorely mistaken, as your readlist and subsequent explanation implies, why do you think so and how would you back your opinion up?

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Springlullaby vs Farkran is SCUM VS SCUM!

Oh-oh-oh, things just got interesting

Which is exactly why you moved your vote from SCUM to SCUM, right?

Explain why you switched your votes, now.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Although a roleblock on momo would give less info since he hasn't posted much so I'd be more likely to go for farkset

I do scumread momo, at first I thought he was busy or something but its become clear he's neglecting this game whilst being active elsewhere. Do not see town in what he

has

posted either.
I am expecting the day to probably end with a deadline no capture, but I think that's the correct mechanical use anyway, so i'm fine with that.

Don't know if I see SvS, but i'm on board with 50% of it and I like the detailing of thoughts from NK15.

- Bret

Also this post is TERRIBLE to make as a followup to NK15 post. Your slot has been whiteknighting springlullaby ever since game start and you're now using "the detailing of thoughts" as a reason to push your scumread, but at the same time you deny NK15's

other

scumread that he switched away from?

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Explain why you switched your votes, now.

Simple... because of what Ame found you looked - and look - very scummy. And because I initially thought that probably only one of you was scum, the impression that you probably wanted to give. To resolve that, I took my time to re-read what you both said and found out that it is very likely that you two are scum.

Bullshit.

You don't move your vote from scum to scum

You move your vote either from your partner to town who is going down, or from stalled town to another town wagon to give momentum to a terrible capture choice

HURT: NK15

This is not town.

To be honest i'm starting to reconsider springlullaby and warming up to the theory that she is being wked for the purpose of keeping her around because she had wrong reads up to now. Like, if you check springlullaby's accusation progression as i laid it out in my analysis of her slot, it goes like this: AME > HECTIC > FARKRAN who are very likely

all town

. I still strongly dislike springlullaby's claim, but i'm more confident on NK15 being scum right now.

If you look at my reads on the other hand, i have been on SPRINGLULLABY > FOC > CHLOE > NK15 which plausibly contain up to 2 scum. For the record, i no longer scumread chloe.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

@pine

The case comes from Ame, not nk15. And their switch from springlullaby to me is nonsensical after that case.

-Farkran

Wrong hydra

[Farkset]

Springlullaby vs Farkran is SCUM VS SCUM!

Oh-oh-oh, things just got interesting

Which is exactly why you moved your vote from SCUM to SCUM, right?

Explain why you switched your votes, now.

-Farkran

This is also a scummy response to a damning accusation. Classic "no u!"

HURT: springlullaby
Enough of this BS.

@NK15 is this vote because springlullaby irritated you or do you have an AI read on her?

They are either overconfident and rude town or powerwolfing scum

. The second is a real possibility, and that one is higher than default, so yes,

I have a scumread on them

. A weak one. If we had access to lynch, which we sadly don`t, a lynch would be highly recommended because them being alive is heavily anti-town.
And about questing: Town should not want that sabotage being around at Night 2+ because losing all stored xp is... too bad at that point. I can get behind the reasoning for a day 1/night 1 quest but after that, the potential damage is just too big.

15. All private topics have daytalk. Any private topics are welcome to request a Discord server.

It doesn't indicate that scum has a daychat PT.

It says that all PT`s have daytalk.
Mafia have a scum PT in approximately 99% of all games.

^This is really bad.

No, it`s not. Don`t disable lurkers.

HURT: Farkset
The motivation does indeed seem to be hidden here.

Probably scum?

Also, the leader on the quest should be me, because I am town.

@Spring @FoC @NK could you address the discrepancies Farkran pointed out regarding your progression? Basically, can you walk us through your thought processes?

There are no discrepancies. About you: Train can be roleblocked. If mafia has a roleblocker they can prevent your role from being upgraded, forever.
About Farkset/springlullaby: Both exhibit questionable behaviour. BOTH.

It is extremely likely that they are not town together. There`s a good case against Farkran though, based on what they said not matching what they said later.... about their motivations...

For these reasons, I am obviously not ok with spring being leader.

Leader:Ame

This is a progression i'm most worried about tbh. NK15 goes from having a scumread on springlullaby (initially weak, in his words), to attacking her multiple times throughout the thread (indicating a continued dislike of the slot, genuine or not), up to ultimately perform a full 180° in post 959 by voting on the player who's most fiercely attacking springlullaby. He does not mention the roleclaim by springlullaby, instead uses "hidden motivations" and "wording inconsistency" as a case against me, while maintaining serious doubts on springlullaby. Why don't you understand the motivations behind my case against springlullaby, if your opinion of her was similar to mine? Why would you shift the wagon momentum away from springlullaby to block me instead? Have you noticed something you didn't like in my case against springlullaby? Where? What are your reasons to trust Ame defending your scumread, as opposed to trust me attacking your scumread?

My vote can be considered on NK15 as well

, if town can muster some will to play as opposed to read pages and pages of 1v1s between me and Ame which is very likely TvT.

-Farkran

Look at post numbers
~ker

[Farkset]

This game is officially the lols.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Also

Leader: NK15

My strongest town read.

Also Spring I accept your request.

Are you serious?

-Farkran

[Farkset]

I'm not moving from hectic, he's like the only player who makes sense here.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

hey Ame you should pick us as leader instead, it would be the best choice
~ker

[Farkset]

hey Ame you should pick us as leader instead, it would be the best choice
~ker

Stop doing that

We might actually get townread if you do

-Farkran

[Farkset]

We need more dialogue on NK15 being town, not just declarative statements.

Be careful, FOC will scumread you soon for that. He is already furious that we discuss capture target instead of instavoting {neighborizer + no capture}.
~ker

[Farkset]

Farkset,

Illuminate me about Hectic?

Serious answer

I posted a meta case on hectic several posts ago, let me fetch it… post 1038.

To be honest though, hectic scumgame improved greatly from what i remembered him. In our last TvS together, Undertale S-Open, hectic was being almost unanimously townread for having a very weak scumgame (ISO Nachomamma for reference) - i used to disagree but that was because i was scum and i had to fake a scumcase on him. Now though, this is probably my 4th or 5th game with hectic in less than 6 months, every time i read him correctly, i think he is town here. This is very much a meta/memory read, not particularly based on his play here, except a few weak elements like the D&D gimmick and the lack of opportunistic movements that i would expect from scum!Hectic.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

FoC you're the only alternative I'd feel comfortable with.


@Hectic, Raya, Chloe, Pine would you be willing to Leader NK or FoC?

Why would you pick NK over FoC? FoC already claimed and giving them XP is the best course of action here. If you find them town then there is no mechanically better candidate.
~ker

[Farkset]

Are people around? We probably need to settle down on something.

@mod VC plox

~ker

[Farkset]

The only thing i agree with, in the last two pages worth of content, is that there's no cooperation and too many egotistical plays. I'm not excluding myself from that list, but i'm used to be the only one - or one of very few elements - who plays like that in a game and it's usually beneficial to have more content to analyze, at least when i am not scum. We have been doing a decent job deciding on the new mechanic to implement, and it seems that the quest leader has also been chosen, so it's weird that we can't compromise on a target to capture.

The question to ask is:

Why both town and scum were content to have disable strongman as the new mechanic and Ame as the quest leader, but there's so much dissent on the capture target?

Possible answers:
1) Scum is lurking and do not wish to engage the gamestate. This would point to town!Ame having very bad reads and scum residing in the less vocal players: {mastina slot, gingie, pinkball, momo, pine, nk15, raya}
2) All scum are in the vocal players and they're staging to the purpose of dismantling any town cohesion - this would point to either town!ame with good reads, or scum!ame: {farkran, springlullaby, ame, hectic, foc, chloe}

The players who have gone against town cohesion at any given time are mostly {chloe, hectic, foc} which are part of the vocal group, but to be honest, given my information and my read confidence i think that the largest part, if not all, the scumteam resides in the other group. I am town, i think Ame/Hectic/Chloe are town - i have a hard time believing that there is more than 0-1 powerwolf in this game with so many people not engaging. If there were more, this game would be much, much more of a mess - i have experienced it. The world i believe in is town!Ame with less than average reads, which would match her meta and a gamestate where scum does nothing to prevent her town leadership, whereas other vocal people are being met with strong resistance - this applies to both me and springlullaby.

Elaboration on my latest paragraph:
- chloe proposed day end when springlullaby was the top wagon, without offering a read on springlullaby and siding with the minority who wanted a no capture outcome.

i now townread her by content

- foc assaulted every single initiative that anyone has ever proposed.

i still scumread them

- hectic posts/content ratio has fallen since springlullaby and farkran have divided the town in two factions, instead keeping up the D&D gimmick which was cool but admittedly not very helpful.

i still townread hectic by personal experience with him

I don't see any towniness coming out from NK15 building a SvS case backwards, but you do you. He's currently my highest scumread. To be fair, currently i wouldn't capture in the vocal group, even if i find springlullaby's claim quality and timing very poor and foc towniness is nowhere to be found. I'll wait one hour for everyone to make up their mind, then i'll come back and vote the highest wagon, and go into d2 with more information and hopefully that will work out better.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

Unofficial Vote Count

[Capture] springlullaby (

5

4

)- momo, Pine,

Farkset

, Ame, Hectic
[Capture] Farkset (2)- springlullaby, Not Known 15
[Capture] Raya (2) - Raya36, FotC
[Capture] Lady Chloe (1) - mastina
[Capture] NK15 (1) - Farkset

End Day (1)- Lady Chloe

Not voting (1)- Ginngie

With 13 alive it takes 7 to reach a majority.

Deadline is in (expired on 2020-04-20 13:00:00)

Also i am listed twice, striked away the incorrect vote

-Farkran

[Farkset]

I'll wait one hour for everyone to make up their mind, then i'll come back and vote the highest wagon

Not much happened i guess.

HURT: Springlullaby

Also pinkball is not listed in Ame's VC. He is voting momo.

This should be correct now:

Unofficial Vote Count

[Capture] springlullaby (5)

- momo, Pine, Farkset, Ame, Hectic

[Capture] Farkset (2)

- springlullaby, Not Known 15

[Capture] Raya (2)

- Raya36, FotC

[Capture] Lady Chloe (1)

- mastina

[Capture] momo (1)

- pinkball

End Day (1)

- Lady Chloe

Not voting (1)

- Ginngie

With 13 alive it takes 7 to reach a majority.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

To clarify my viewpoint:

The question to ask is:

Why both town and scum were content to have disable strongman as the new mechanic and Ame as the quest leader, but there's so much dissent on the capture target?

Possible answers:
1) Scum is lurking and do not wish to engage the gamestate. This would point to town!Ame having very bad reads and scum residing in the less vocal players: {mastina slot, gingie, pinkball, momo, pine, nk15, raya}
2) All scum are in the vocal players and they're staging to the purpose of dismantling any town cohesion - this would point to either town!ame with good reads, or scum!ame: {farkran, springlullaby, ame, hectic, foc, chloe}

I believe the first possibility is the reality of this game, unless I am deeply misled on my reads.

That's also what i think.

-Farkran

Hydra sorry

[Farkset]

Why am I involved in both of those!

Because you are the de facto town leader, and the literal quest leader

You don't get to that position without scum acceptance, or with scum disruption if they are in the vocal group.

-Farkran

[Farkset]

fuck I missed hammer
guys plz remember only I am allowed to hammer thank you

@Pink Ball, plz remember next time

You came after day 1 deadline...
~ker

[Farkset]

How dare you now you will no longer have fun in this game, without me

Oh well, i'm not going to drown the thread as a treestump, so good luck team and try to smash the town please

Maybe kerset will wander around and have fun with you.

Bye!

-Farkran

[Farkset]

I no longer think it's Ali. Nothing in my analysis strongly pointed towards NK not being associated. And anyone who can't account for XP because they 'forgot' to train is sus at this point.

VOTE: NK

The most damning thing for me was 1114. Kerset’s weird reaction to LC not auto tr NK15.

What was weird about it?
~Kerset

[Farkset]

I have been summoned

But it's 3 AM, i'm going to sleep

I will not leave any question unanswered

-Farkran

[Farkset]

*crying in corner*
~Kerset