Mini 1552 - Paranoia [GAME OVER]

[MTD]

Huh, egopost, right?

[MTD]

How about having several rivaling townblocks?

[MTD]

Also, it is very well possible not getting PMs is part of the mechanic, if so, what do we do?

[MTD]

Vote Shos

My Role PM says that this will help my win condition

You got a role?

[MTD]

Good idea.
VOTE: antihero

[MTD]

He said we would get our role PMs in 12 hours, right?

Did he? I don't see it anywhere...

[MTD]

No, you are right, he said it ther, I was looking for it in the OP.

[MTD]

Although 12 hours are over now

[MTD]

Huh, what now? Also, yay, role.

This is actually pretty funny now:

especially if you don't want to assume we have third parties.

[MTD]

I'm in.
VOTE: Muffin

Can the detectives be lynched/nightkilled? After all, they aren't town, and we don't really know if they play against town...

[MTD]

hehehhe

My post is a rulez post told you all I am king!

Yeah, but shos set it up.

So yeah, I agree we just let the police be police for now.

[MTD]

Straw Poll: Does anyone think that any activity during the 'no role PM' time helped determine the scumteam? Or was it just for the police? Windblown got to talk during that time, so...

No.No.

[MTD]

well, uhm that answers that!

annyyywayyyy...

VOTE: LLD

I have a theory, A THEORY, but I don't know if I should share it... I'm kinda scared and my daddy says to not share things with strangers

Are you voting LLD because of this theory or is it something separate(Like a rvs)?

I am voting her because of the theory... kinda?

it's kinda a stupid theory anyway, though...

QUESTION:
what is everyone's favorite role/alignment?

mines Vanilla town!

Difficult question, fav role either town tracker or SK or Mafia RoleCop (haven't been either here yet), so as you can tell no fav alignment really.

[MTD]

Maybe.

Do not question Royalty!

Viva revolution

VOTE: Kovara

Oooch, abandoning the Muffin wagon already?

[MTD]

100% Town. I don't think this is a "U Pick" though. Or if it is, I'd certainly have liked to have been told about it.

PEdit: Serial killer is pretty hot.

I wouldn't think anyone would pick that police role...

@garmr, not for me before some more players have come here.

[MTD]

vote: mtd

Hi

*backs up* help, he is voting me!

Hi.

@garmr I agree, but I don't have anything...

[MTD]

I have no idea what Kovara is trying to achieve at the moment, natural guess would be getting out of RVS, but favorite roles really don't help there, do they?

[MTD]

@dopog, idgi...

[MTD]

like even if it's jokey stubborn that's not great Kovara

Why isn't it?

I have no idea what Kovara is trying to achieve at the moment, natural guess would be getting out of RVS, but favorite roles really don't help there, do they?

[MTD]

Ehrm, no, mine says pretty clearly that I know not everyone else is town.

Good point about bastard mod, still I think we should let them be for now.

[MTD]

Eh well its not the same goal - i was trying to paraphrase - more like thecsame propaganda, the same cause, dunno how to paraphrase

It says something like that, but with a negation, so it says, that some don't.
I agree that Kovara hasn't been helpful, also, why do you think shos would have scumclaimed with that?
Also, how about that theory of yours?
Grey, can you please explain your vote?

[MTD]

and he like, hammered me so :/

[quote="In post 104, Kovara" but I wasn't expecting the quick lynch :/
[/quote]
What are you talking about? How is 4 people voting you a lynch?

[MTD]

Waiting for VC now is good.

[MTD]

Ok so it seems we really cant lynch the detectives, so again, we should probably ignore them for now.

LLD, do you have anything to say?

[MTD]

Nope. My vote is happy where it is.

Any reason?

[MTD]

just curious: was anyone trying to vote Antihero last VC? If not, we might want to test that /justincase
Can anyone please explain to a dumb newbie, why muffin should be lynched? As it is I think he is town, simply because that wagon grew much too fast.

[MTD]

nofuckthat

Well, we can just wait for the next VC, if Nobody Special's vote doesn't show up, we can forget it anyway.

[MTD]

This guy is supposed to be good at scum? Please.

you probably wouldn't be reading me as scum if i actually were scum

This is like

The actual literal definition of WIFOM

The actual literal definition

"I only play shitty and scummy if I'm town!"

Can we just lynch this motherfucker?

Yes it is WIFOM. May I remind you that WIFOM, while bad, is not necessarily alignment indicative (especially when done this obviously)?

[MTD]

Because I'm slow, I guess, and thus I don't really get why there's a wagon on Muffin. Feel free to explain it.

Dessaw, read the above post. Seriously. That's what he calls content. Oh, and voting for the moderator. And whining that I'm scum and LLD is a bad player, because that must be why we have a scum read on him!

He's just blatantly attacking everyone voting for him, and trolling. Fucking lynch players doing that, Dessaw. That's how you nail scum.

Everyone should explain in their next post why they're not voting Muffin.

Agreed, he isn't contributing much.
Wtf? He isn't voting the moderator, nor did he ever.
Well, that's just trolling probably.

No, that's not how you nail scum. This is how you lynch players regardless of their alignment.
If I was voting Muffin right now, that would be for a policy lynch and I don't do policy lynches.

[MTD]

If I was voting Muffin right now, that would be for a policy lynch and I don't do policy lynches.

...

You are voting for Muffin right now.

The fuck is this?

I mean the fuck is this?

Heh, you are right, I didn't even notice that, never changes my vote out of RVS, thanks for pointing out.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Kovara I thought my vote was there anyway.
Expl.: I still don't see what he thought to be achieving with his questions.
Also he made pretty stupid cases on Dessew and dopog, that are illogical at best.
I don't really buy into the "I thought I was lynched thing".

[MTD]

EBWOP: *changed

[MTD]

So umm @Kovara?
It's not great because, sure you may be asking a question to get out of rvs, but pushing people to answer your "question" or else seems as if you're just asking questions for questions sake!
I was not trying to kill your fun [ sorry if? I actually did : ( ] just, thought it was pretty scummy to jokingly go "guys they're not answering my questions!" because there can't be THAT much purpose behind that question....

Serious question- how much experience do you have with forum mafia?

ohmaigod you're... you... you totally missed the point of that post :/ and did you even read the reads I was able to form?

there was a fair amount of purpose behind my question

one year here, two more offsite

@Kovara: I thoght this, followed by "dopog is obviously scum" to be your "case", because otherwise I don't know where you would be coming from with "obviously". But you are right ofc calling them scum without having a case is much better /sarcasm
I will come to the rest later.

[MTD]

I get what you are saying about changing their posting style before and after role, but I do not agree.
I agree it changed, I do not agree you can conclude to them being scum. I mean, ofc you play differently when you have no idea whatsoever what you will be trying to achieve in the future. I think the point you are missing is that inb4 you don't jknow what you will be, so you play in a way that doesn't affect the later game (e.g. Scumhunting not possible etc., therefore I think playstyle would change after the role PM about equally as much regardless of alignment.

Your thought process seems genuine though, and I see you were at least trying to get somewhere with that question (btw there is a reason why RQS isn't used much anymore: it doesn't really help). So although I don't agree with the methods and your conclusions I do think you are town.
UNVOTE:
I have no idea whom to vote right now, what is your case on dopog, then?

[MTD]

Muffin's defense really isn't that good, however I like the way ICE is pushing this even less, he is handling it too much like a closed case, not answering muffins points but rather just saying they are scummy.
@Muffin: reads?

[MTD]

If you are so desperate for a vote, fine
VOTE: GreyICE
because of reasons I stated earlier (@dopog: I did, actually, read my posts, if I say something about someone that is obviously scummy, I don't feel the need to explicitely point that out.)
Also Private is lurking, yes, but that is null in itself. so anyway,
@Private: Feel like sharing thoughts?

[MTD]

lol @ garmr

Seriously Grey, are you

trying

to look scummy? I mean throwing insults and made up thought processes around isn't exactly good scumhunting.

[MTD]

Say, out of curiosity, where does this grand conviction that Muffin is town come from, oh he who does not know where his vote is?

It doesn't exist except that I don't think a wagon on scum would form like this (without anything scummy, really)

[MTD]

@Grey: Because not contributing much

is not a scumtell

And no, what you are doing would not help me get a read there, because when he is lynched, he is lynched. You are pushing a quick lynch and not engaging in any senseful discussion, that is what prevents me from getting a read.

I am not trying to shut your interactions with him down, I am not aggressively attacking them, either, I am trying to get you to

do some real interaction

instead of just screaming "SCUM" at him.

[MTD]

#164 I start talking to MTD. #168, there's muffin to fucking attack me and spam shit and try and stop me getting any reads. I don't like MTD's posts, but I've had ZERO chance to get any decent interaction with him because of PAGES OF BULLSHIT. Shos? PAGES OF BULLSHIT. Fucking new guy replacing Nobody Special (and NS replacing out is more than a bit of a scumtell, he doesn't like playing scum)? PAGES OF BULLSHIT.

WTF? In 164 you "start" talking to me, I answer in my next post, you

never talk to me again

. How is that muffin's fault?
Also It is just stupid to attack muffin for making noise, when basically all he has done is answer to you.

[MTD]

And all you do is attack me. Insult me. Yell at me. [...] Shit at me at EVERY FUCKING TURN.

That's an

exact

description of what

you

have been doing.

[MTD]

I will most definitely not hammer.

@greyiCE: I will give you a synopsis of what muffin said shortly, am to lazy right now. But really, why do you force me to concentrate on muffin? I said he is town, and you say he is scum, yes, but why not rather focus on you being scum?

[MTD]

greyice is most likely scum - in the unlikely event greyice flips town, your slot and LLD have been completely fucking useless for the entire game

Why would they have been useless? Especially would they have been more useless than if greyICE flipped scum?
Also, right now, it is more probable we get a flip of you, not grey.

[MTD]

are you actually retarded?

read what i'm actually saying

See you keep saying this, but given how you are saying it to so many different people in this game, maybe you should be looking at the common denominator. (hint: It's you! You're the scum!)

OR it's all the people not reading what he is saying, hm...

[MTD]

WTF? In 164 you "start" talking to me, I answer in my next post, you

never talk to me again

. How is that muffin's fault?
Also It is just stupid to attack muffin for making noise, when basically all he has done is answer to you.

Because the next few pages are nothing but MUFFIN BULLSHIT.

As for him answering me

Actually

I'm curious

MTD, why don't you summarize all of his answers to me. Do tell me how many original answers he comes up with.

Ok, this now.

NO, it is because the next pages are

you

wildly accusing him and him answering to it. It was entirely

your

choice not to follow up on it.

Ok, as I do this, you do me a favor and summarize your original arguments for him being scum k?

[MTD]

Ok, as I do this, you do me a favor and summarize your original arguments for him being scum k?

I summarized it for Shos.

Guyett replaces in. I summarize it for Guyett.

Now you want a summary. I mean why? Go find one of the other summaries. Use LLD's summary, she hit the key points. There's literally no point to another summary.

What is the point of asking for a summary, MTD?

I missed the one for guyett, but after reading it let me rephrase: Do me a favor and summarize your original arguments for him being scum, that are not either already explained in a way that makes them non-alignment indicative(1.) or misreps/made-up(2.,4.), k?
That leaves only 3. for me, which I still don't really see as a scumtell, for once because I had a similar thought at that point (not that you were lyncher but maybe some kind of jester).

[MTD]

Post 168: answer to #164: You call his post WIFOM, make a "synopsis" of it, he says you are misrepping him (IMO reightfully so)
169: answer to 161: You saying he is not producing content, him saying you don't either.
175: answer to 174: You saying the scum motivation behind his actions was to stop things from happening, avoiding to take stances and not contributing, him answering that this doesn't show scum motivation, that you are only attacking him for a single non-alignment indicative (due to him allegedly not having read the thread) post and calling you out for selectivity.
183: Answer to 180: You making a scumtell out of him accusing you of selectivity, him explaining that case again.
197: to no post in particular: Restating the case after you ignoring it in your previous posts.
205: reply to 199: well just read it, he is (rightfully) calling all of your points misreps

because they are

, also restating his point.
210: reply to 208: You jumping at another post of his, calling it a scumtell, him explaining the thought process. Also accusing you of tunneling and not scumhunting (again).
211: sitll@ 208: You saying he thought he is not immune to scumslips, him agreeing, also some WIFOM he calls out himself.
214: @213: You say me or Dessew are scum, he asks you questions about that. You ask him to make an analysis in case you are town, he does that. You ask him something that has been discussed in length before, he gives you the same answer, then points out this is a bastard game so he can't be sure voting there was pointless.
217: @216: you saying his wagon is all town, he says it's unlikely for scum to avoid it altogether if he is town, then some analysis on the other ones on the wagon. You stating your case on me, him tentatively agreeing but questioning the possible scum motivation. You ask him about possible scum reaction to the police faction, him saying he doesn't think they are necessarily town and also that he wouldn't do what he has done, because of no profit for scum.
218: still @216: You restate you find it suspicious he "hunts" for third party, he restates his answer.
230: @231: see above
234: @232: see above
242: probably @241: again attacking your "scumtell"
252: @243: You say he was answering for shos, he points out he didn't but you didn't answer the question.
254: @250: You lay out your "case" on him, he attacks it, saying your points(links) are wrong/misreps (they were), asking how they were what you said they were (to which you didn't answer), then see above.
255: @253: You going back on 252 insisting he was interrupting you (

for no reason

), him again explaining how he didn't.

That should be enough for now, still don't know why you needed me to do this except solidifying my scumread on you.
Seriously, you are forcing me to focus on muffin when considering you, because for the biggest part of the game you only talked to/about him, that sucks.

[MTD]

No, MTD. You've made it brutally clear you will consider nothing I've said. Despite stating you have no town read on Muffin, you have shown up here for two purposes. One is to dump a useless vote on Kovara when I pointed out you were voting Muffin despite defending him. The other is to brutally attack me, and me alone, every time the Muffin wagon seems to move forward.

You can't even answer simple, basic questions. All you do is reiterate that you need a summary, and scumplain about how shitty the case is. Given your inability to answer simple, basic questions, or even give a good summary of why you believe Muffin is town, I have less than zero desire to interact with you.

If you can't even pretend to be reading what I'm writing and achieve the minimum level of human interaction I'd expect out of a potato, fuck off.

I am not gonna answer to this, everyone with a brain can see this is stupid, at least if they have read the thread.
My vote will stay on you., now to talk to the rest.

[MTD]

and, there is the fact that the only people that I like are LLD and Grey. everyone else is super duper sketchyIn post 324, PrivateI wrote:In post 319, zMuffinMan wrote:are you actually retarded?Just don't...do your ad hom attacks as much as you want, (and believe me, they have been noted) but leave that crap out of this game.

Grey has actually been Ad homming the entire game.

So why do you like him?

[MTD]

@LLD: This:

what do you think you accomplish with your posts above? you're arguing with someone who thinks you're scum and will almost certainly not change his mind. You're not stupid enough to not realize this.

So the only real intent you can have in making this drawn out bullets for bullets/points for points argument with him is to frustrate outside readers and create apathy towards you and he, so that people fall off your lynch wagon. Very common scum strategy, but very obvious.

Besides, you also stooped to asking "why me" which is death anyway, so.

Is actually the best case on Muffin I've seen in this game, but still it isn't conclusive IMO, after rereading I think the same could be said about Grey, and even better so.

[MTD]

@ Garmr: Do you still think Kovara is scum?
You said you don't agree with the Muffin wagon, if the reasons for it are bad, what about those willing to hop on it?

[MTD]

"I'm voting someone to see if there's secret votes the mod isn't counting" is completely fucking horrible.

that is NOT what i said at all - and once again you're fucking misrepresenting what i've said about it

I directly quoted you, Muffin.

Here's the link: http://forum.mafiascum.net/posting.php? ... []=5692870

Is your only response to anything I say "you're scummy" or "misrepresentation"?

@Guyett:

You notice how he cuts off all conversation by yelling "MISREPRESENTATION" at the top of his lungs and complaining about how scummy I am?

as is, i think there's a possibility votes are secretly counted for the detectives but not registered in the votecounts, but i don't see much good in testing that at the moment, so i'm not

--> Definitely NOT a direct quote.
-->NOT even the same meaning.

[MTD]

you cannot seriously think there's scum motivation in my vote on empking

Well, while I don't think it is necessarily a thing scum would do, I still understand why he sees possible scum motivation there as voting for someone who can't actively answer you etc would be a way for scum to avoid taking clear stances early in the game.

[MTD]

Your first idea was "Oh I read EMPKing was unlynchable AND HADN'T READ THE THREAD" (something Antihero noted AFTER THE GAME STARTED - SO YOU COULD HAVE ONLY LEARNED IT BY READING THE THREAD)

He did say

i hadn't read the thread it was late, couldn't be bothered reading, saw OP, saw he was "unlynchable" in a bastard game, figured i'd see what happens, voted, went to sleep.

[MTD]

And yes, there's lots of scum motivation to go third party hunting and avoid making firm opinions and actually scumhunting. Look how shitty it is to fake scumhunting. Even if you win this debate with me, you'll just have one dead townie and even more questions tomorrow.

True for you.

[MTD]

And yes, there's lots of scum motivation to go third party hunting and avoid making firm opinions and actually scumhunting. Look how shitty it is to fake scumhunting. Even if you win this debate with me, you'll just have one dead townie and even more questions tomorrow.

True for you.

Not in the least. If I'm wrong about muffin, I'm wrong about muffin. If I get mislynched because of it, it happens. I am quite willing to gamble the game that this sort of INTENSE discomfort at attention and behavior does not come from town.

I don't normally like to boast, MTD, because it's rude, and because I don't think that "I am the lord of scumhunting, sheep me" is in any way productive. But I am not at all bad at it. I can offer you links from the past that show exactly that. Now I have been on hiatus some time, and recently joined 4 games (this is one). Now, the following is a site rule:

Do not talk outside the game thread about an ongoing game except where explicitly allowed to do so by your role/moderator. Likewise, do not use bbcode to hide secret messages - this equates to discussion outside the thread.

You can see my other threads I am posting in and view them, along with all of my previous games by clicking this link.

I may have some confidence in my abilities. I feel I have earned it from many, many, many completed games. And this is one of my stronger scumreads.

Quoting this because I put some work into responding to MTD and I'm tired of my posts being lost in the general noise.

Great stuff, but that wasn't my point, the point is, if he is town, you have gained nothing from this day, because all you did was to convince yourself that he is scum. Your answer to this is "but he can't be town" and that is a mindset that is either scummy or really bad play.

[MTD]

The Police Detectives don't count towards that "alive" population

this is what unlynchable was referring to btw

i used the word unlynchable because it's easier than saying "don't count towards the alive population"

Hey MTD

I want you to say, on record, that it makes sense that he used "unlynchable" as a shorthand for "doesn't count towards the alive population"

And not from Antihero's post #48 where the moderator clearly states he's unlynchable.

This is the post in question by the way.

@muffin why vote empking after pI did?

i hadn't read the thread

it was late, couldn't be bothered reading,

saw OP, saw he was "unlynchable" in a bastard game

, figured i'd see what happens, voted, went to sleep.

Guyett, same question.

I agree with you (probably) that these phrases don't necessarily mean the same, although "do not count towards the living population" does seem to imply unlynchable.
however I believe the point you are missing is, that at the point in time he made that post he in any case already knew they are unlynchable, so I think him using it in retrospective does actually make some sense. Also it is well possible that at the point of him writing this he did not remember exactly

hwhat

he read in the OP, I think "not counting towards the living pop" does at least warrant the same reaction.

I know this is speculation, but why would he try to put up such a big web of lied just to back up

one

vote he could easily label "didn't read the thread at all"?

[MTD]

eh only just saw I messed up the italics in my last post, sorry for that.

[MTD]

(also, if anyone didn't catch my claim before, I'm hated)

Yeah, got that, but why do you feel the need to point that out especially at this point?

[MTD]

Not that I don't find the sudden activity from certain people and the flash wagon fascinating

But wait for shos

Agreed, we should hear what he wants to say first.
I don't really know about Dessew, he very conveniently jumped onto that muffin wagon, not contributing anything new but just reiterating arguments by LLD and Grey. OTOH there isn't much more I find to be scummy as there isn't much more from him at all.

[MTD]

MTD: why are you voting Greyice? do you think he is scum, rather than lyncher or jester? what do you think of the other peeps on Muffinwagon?

I am not sure what he is exactly, I think "normal" scum and some third party are both well possible, but I would lynch him in each case, because it means him playing against town, doesn't it?

As I said, I am interested in the Dessew wagon, as the way he voted for muffin looked bad, dopog didn't look good for similar reasons, LLD I can actually well imagine as town at the moment, because her thought process at least made some sense to me, even though I don't agree.
Private, well, he hasn't really given us anything of value yet, so I can't tell exactly.
@Private: I would like this:

with the promise of future, more in-depth examinations of Muffin and shos specifically

@shos: Are you definitive the police is protown?

[MTD]

dopog didn't look good for similar reasons

That's nonsense actually, no idea why I thought he is on muffin, he is null to me.

[MTD]

My response to 466: the reason i do not want to lynch him is because a jester win may makr everyone else lose like in Jester Knightless (see my games i gpt that twice).

Hm, dunno, I wouldn't expect that unannounced, even in a bastard mod game, cause you know, it sucks.

But yeah, ti

might

be and that possibility makes a dessew lynch safer I guess.

VOTE: Dessew

I think this is L-2, can anyone (

mod: VC

) confirm?

[MTD]

Oh, right, missed that shos vote on skimming. Well, now we know he is not hated...

[MTD]

Okay, I am somewhat confused, I know mastin scumread me for some mysterious reason, which I asked her to state, which I would like to reiterate.

I am pretty sure I can't agree with shos as scum either, unless you can show me something big I missed.

@Marangal: He means me with M.

[MTD]

@Marangal: He means me with M.

Yep. Abbreviating your username!

I'm really considering a Marangal vote

Let's not consider. Let's do.

VOTE: Marangal.
My read's been inverted. Kovora was town--she is not.

Grey and mastin town block?

Yep!

What the hell?

[MTD]

@Marangal: He means me with M.

Yep. Abbreviating your username!

I'm really considering a Marangal vote

Let's not consider. Let's do.

VOTE: Marangal.
My read's been inverted. Kovora was town--she is not.

Grey and mastin town block?

Yep!

What the hell?

Kinda self-explanatory? My townread on Kovora has changed into a scumread thanks to Marangal. GreyICE-Guyett townbloc is a go, too.

Well ok, was confused because of "Kovara was town" instead of "Kovara was a townread" or something, but that makes some sense. And I disagree.

[MTD]

I know mastin scumread me for some mysterious reason, which I asked her to state, which I would like to reiterate.

[MTD]

@mtd: who do you think is mafia?

Private, Grey, possibly mastin, didn't scumread Garmr, but if she is town, no idea what she is doing right now, this isn't the towngame I know from there, but well, I have only one game played with her before.

[MTD]

Hey boys and girls. Yeah, here it is: would really only be content with either MTD or PrivateI lynches today.

Don't think MTD's done that much real scumhunting. What? Yeah. Just kinda defended the heck out of zmuffin and scumread Greyice. And I don't know where it came from I mean this kind of progression within his reads especially on zmuffin (boldyyy added to these quotes);

Because I'm slow, I guess, and thus I don't really get why there's a wagon on Muffin. Feel free to explain it.

Dessaw, read the above post. Seriously. That's what he calls content. Oh, and voting for the moderator. And whining that I'm scum and LLD is a bad player, because that must be why we have a scum read on him!

He's just blatantly attacking everyone voting for him, and trolling. <snip> lynch players doing that, Dessaw. That's how you nail scum.

Everyone should explain in their next post why they're not voting Muffin.

Agreed, he isn't contributing much.

Wtf? He isn't voting the moderator, nor did he ever.

Well, that's just trolling probably.

No, that's not how you nail scum. This is how you lynch players regardless of their alignment.
If I was voting Muffin right now, that would be for a policy lynch and I don't do policy lynches.

Seems to let zmuffin off the hook with no thought. Like "agreed" but nope he's not scum, probably trolling. That doesn't say anything about what mtd thinks zmuffin is. References a policy lynch, and really I think that it's just to set up "I could vote zmuffin", don't even know what the policy is.....

I did

not

say anything about muffin's alignment here. The "probably trolling" is only in reply to one of grey's points. Policy lynch, because @see "not contributing", but I didn't have a scumread.
All in all, it is true, that I didn't say how I stand on muffin, that is because I didn't have a clear read on him.

Muffin's defense really isn't that good

,

however

I like the way ICE is pushing this even less, he is handling it too much like a closed case, not answering muffins points but rather just saying they are scummy.
@Muffin: reads?

He really just lets muffin off. To insta-town read him (or more accurately, not even consider him for a lynch) because he has picked a side. And so from then on he has kinda decided that greyice is mafia and zmuffin should not be lynched. As in the same thing that he is accusing greyice of doing.

Dat misrep.
Nope, I did not insta-townread him, did not "never consider him for a lynch", I just

as I said

found grey to be much more scummy.

@LLD: This:

what do you think you accomplish with your posts above? you're arguing with someone who thinks you're scum and will almost certainly not change his mind. You're not stupid enough to not realize this.

So the only real intent you can have in making this drawn out bullets for bullets/points for points argument with him is to frustrate outside readers and create apathy towards you and he, so that people fall off your lynch wagon. Very common scum strategy, but very obvious.

Besides, you also stooped to asking "why me" which is death anyway, so.

Is actually the best case on Muffin I've seen in this game, but still it isn't conclusive IMO

, after rereading I think the same could be said about Grey, and even better so.

Why the bold?
It just doesn't look like he's thinking. Doesn't look as if he wants to know who is what and think it out. What he accuses greyice of doing. But more subtle, more.... arbitrary decision making to pursue grey that's veiled by a defence of zmuffin. That's mafian.

Protip: Try reading.
I did obviously consider the case, and said I didn't find it conclusive because it could be used on grey as well and nobody (including me) considered the possibility of them both being scum, so yeah. This is

exactly

what I said in the quoted post, just what are you trying to do?

[MTD]

Well we can be pretty sure it is neither LyLo nor MyLo at the moment, so I don't think it is that relevant at the moment.

[MTD]

I can go with PI thohe's useless AND badVOTE: PrivateI

This.
I am not sure of dopog, doesn't look good to me, but I'm afraid that could be biased.

In other news, I agree Guyett is probably town.

[MTD]

Woah I'm not even voting.

Well ok.

VOTE: PrivateI

[MTD]

That fishing was bad for sure...
Confused.

[MTD]

Vote: Shos

This is way past the point of reasonable play.

Wait.. What?

[MTD]

You realize he was voting that slot anyway? Or what is your point?

[MTD]

MTD: man show me where you were trying to work out muffin's alignment, cause I'm not seeing it.
Just seems like you thought he was townish cause of circumstances of his wagon early, and then defending him whilst saying he hadn't generated much content.

Difficult question, I wasn't doing much on that front, though ofc I did think about his alignment, but from his posts on themselves he was always pretty null to me, what made me think he may be town is the very strange way his wagon formed, that made me feel I was safe to assume he is town and scumhunt off his wagon for the time being.

[MTD]

Ok let's go at this more mtd;
read on shos?

A bit more town than not.

I like his stances on most things and it seems to me he is trying to be helpful.

I do not like him going "whoa look at me I was so important for lynching Dess" and "I never bus D1".

So yeah, a bit.

[MTD]

Again, what?
What the hell was vote-worthy about that post?

[MTD]

Sooo a lack-of-content vote? Nah, that's not how you do it.

I think I believe PrivateI/Jon might really not be scum. Firstly, even though I don't really trust Grey, for I still think he might be scum, that can't be ignored, also it seems unlikely (assuming 2 scum left) that two scum would hop on that wagon in a fashion that similar.

UNVOTE:

@dopog:
What is

your

read on shos?

I am still not ok with a shos lynch, I would be ok with dopog I guess, but I will have to read up on him first, LLD is null, Grey is meh, but risky to lynch.

@LLD: I think I still need to know why you are voting shos.
@Grey: same.

Also
Note that mastin still didn't answer to why he scumread(s?) me...

I think Mara scum is a possibility
@shos: remind me why you think it's not?

Also,
I read up on Guyett's ISO and it led me to think Garmr/mastin could well be scum. Reading Garmr's didn't change that back.

Guyett is town btw.

To Garmr:
Their stance on Dessew first is... VI but not VI, but might be VI sooo null scum? WTF?
Then, two people vote Dessew.
Dessew doesn't make a single post in this time interval.
They are asked to explain why their reasons aren't shit, now suddenly Dessew is very scum and they give reasons they never even mentioned before, all the time claiming they were just explaining their earlier reads.


This:
VOTE: This to me is her staying off the wagon. She seems to know he will flip town and it echos through her voice yet she keeps the option to jump to hammer if times running out. She is also setting up her votes for the next day or if the wagons falling apart. She seems to me like the typical scum off wagon.
Is actually a nice case, except the same could be said about this case itself; it seems to me now he somehow knows muffin would flip town
Also the staying off the wagon, it's like his whole case on Kovara could be applied to Garmr as well...

Sooo VOTE: mastin although that sucks somewhat with her not being here.

[MTD]

doh, i accidentally vote tags instead of quote tags

@mod could you fix that?

[MTD]

@LLD: I think I still need to know why you are voting shos.
@Grey: same.

He is not pressuring PrivateI/Replacement

He is pressuring me to reveal my Role PM

He's stuck in a situation where he says that he thinks I'm town, but now that I'm telling him I have night play info on his alignment, he can't exactly just go "that sounds scummy!"

I have a history of being virulently anti-fakeclaim as town (that dates from long before this game started) so this is not a matter of him thinking that I'm town doing a "gambit" (aka being an anti-town fuckwit, which is what 99.9% of town fakeclaim gambits are). Either I'm scum, or PrivateI is town (or at least a fucking terrible lynch for today when we have this many godawful lurkaderps). And under his 2 scum theory, if I'm scum PrivateI is STILL town (and instead of letting my partners fakeclaim and maybe survive an extra few days I drop fucking hammers on their face and go solo serial killer mode).

He even told me to breadcrumb what my result was, which I feel I have sufficiently done if I flip.

I agree with this mostly.

But then he turns around and just ignores everything to go back to the push. There's literally no town reason to do that. None.

This feels like he really wants to know my role.

Idk about this, #604 looked like he was ok with the answer and just wanted to make a final remark, what's wrong with going back to the push from there?

[MTD]

At least the mod didn't count it as a vote

@shos: Ok, I found her involvement on that wagon to be delusional, but still the most townish on there.

Grey is looking better and better by the way.

[MTD]

One thing I'd like is if dogog and MTD would give their thoughts on the issue where dopog said MTD was acting like he knew the Day 1 lynch (I forgot his name) was going to be Town. It was one of my main issues I wanted addressed. I think MTD is Town from my first read through. I've played with him once where he was Town, but I've never seen him scum.

I answered to that in #550 and #628, do you need more or is that enough?

[MTD]

they've not got a town wincon

I am curious what that is supposed to mean.

[MTD]

Ok thanks, that's much clearer now. So basically we don't know what they are trying to achieve, they are probably 3rd party and we can still try to use them to our advantage?

And thanks for the paraphrase that is definitely the most helpful we got from them yet.

[MTD]

I am

still

waiting for your case on me btw.

[MTD]

Uh, prod dodge.

[MTD]

Like with zmuffin and even with dessew he thought #436 reads very null and then #466 without voting he seems to CHOOSE (as in arbitrarily - i.e. set up a bus) that he is interested in dessew. Those progressions on zmuff and dessew don't read town.

Let me think.... no.
in 436 I did

not

say he was null. Read it. What I said was, that he looked bad for various reasons, but there wasn't anymore than that,

because he hadn't posted anymore

. In 466 I said that I was interested in the wagon

because of one of the reasons I mentioned in 436

. So yeah, very arbitrary.

"oh yeah could be bad but on the other hand, this so I don't think so"

How do you get to your reads? Do you always see something scummy and then you are sure that person is scum?

Just seems like a fat I'm gonna null read out on people and from there I can decide if they are scum or not.

Ah so you don't even think one should start out nullreading people? Like, I should know their alignments from the beginning? Wait...

Reflection that MTD scum probably means three scum - although that is what I thought anyway.

Why?

Meh my shos read is pretty darn null. I can see him scum with my top two, and his flip on PI between day 1 and 2 was weird so that's something but his kinda defence "WHY WOULD I DO THAT TO DESSEW" reads town to me - pending my re-read of late day 1 because he could be misconstruing his part. But I don't think so?

reads just absolutely feel as if they are "oh yeah could be bad but on the other hand, this so I don't think so". Sure that could be a struggle to read people. But it doesn't look like an honest fight. Just seems like a fat I'm gonna null read out on people and from there I can decide if they are scum or not.

...


I pretty much agree with shos' above post I think.

[MTD]

I'm vt all the way
Go hammer away

This is probably it eh? and I guess as I said before not really too miffed; played average and stuff

But I mean seriously shos and (mostly?) mtd. I'm not like "oh yeah that's a concrete scumtell" I'm saying that's what I think when I read a post.
Cya

I don't get the point of the last line.

I think I am going to hammer this, any objections?

[MTD]

You hadn't commented on him before much at all and you say he could be bad, but there isn't much you have on him. And the read progresses from there until you vote him. And that looks scummy/artificial all that bad stuff

I still don't see anything you could call scummy about that but whatevs.
If you are town, seeing you are probably gonna be lynched, what are you gonna do? Right, try to provide more info (if possible), why are you not doing that?

[MTD]

Ok, thanks, I will not hammer yet, we have some time still, so please go on.


Mastin not pushing me and especially not even giving a case on me even after I asked for one three times is what irks me most about him atmo.

[MTD]

EBWOP: Make that her.

[MTD]

Mtd where you standing on marangal?

Tbh I just had to reread some of her ISO to get an impression at all, dunno why I pretty much ignored her before.

First off, I do not think you and her both are scum, because of this:

(if anyone hasn't noticed, Dessew and Dopog are both obviously scum)

While such a bus (without much followup) may be reasonable on one scumbuddy, I think it is highly unlikely to go on both.

I do not think Kovara's early play achieved anything from town, that's not a tell, though.
Now Marangal:
In #496 The thoughts on Garmr seem ok, it is strange that she defends her actions as Kovara when no one was really attacking her IIRC (like, I don't like it), the rest of the post seems ok (except I think that case on dopog isn't really reasonable, but I can see where it comes from (with Kovara's play before)).

As others have stated, it doesn't make sense to me that she tries to keep Kovara and Marangal seperate.

I like her stopping us from going into setup discussions again.

I think her points on mastin are good.

All in all: Pretty null?

[MTD]

Yeah mastin sorry about her as well,
Deadline is in, like, 17 min?

Well, nothing has been brought forward that makes dopog town in any way and it doesn't seem like dopog's gonna say any more, so yeah.

VOTE: dopog

I know dopog asked how my reads would change if he flipped town, well as I said, I would more seriously consider Marangal to be a possibility as scum other than that, I would have to read up.

[MTD]

Ok, so I was in interrogation last night, not much stuff to be said but I will give a short synopsis.

[MTD]

Ok: Short synopsis:

Emp asks what my faction is, I say town.
I ask them what their WC is, Emp refuses to answer.
AP asks me for my opinion on dopog before the lynch and on mastin, I say that I am not gonna answer everything as long as I am doubting that they help town.
AP says they are against scum (nothing about for town or anything though).
I then answer stuff (opinion on dopog pretty null up until #693, obv let myself be swayed by that too easily, think mastin is playing strange by giving reads but no cases even after being asked for some and I am still leaning scum on her) and ask them why they don't answer my questions.
AP says withholding cases was something mastin regularely does and not alignment-indicative, but also that mastin didn't tell us all of her interrogation.
I ask what she didn't tell, AP says he called her scum repeatedly until she got annoyed (lol)
I ask them what they thought about mastin and dopog, AP says, they thought dopog was town without reasoning and mastin is rather null because of her wanting to go to interrogation (might be scum otherwise).

Oof, I hope that is paraphrased enough.
Therefore, I am pretty sure they are some strange kind of third party and it confuses me why they don't say they were town-aligned.
My scumread on mastin got somewhat weaker, but is still there, I will have to read up on LLD obviously.

[MTD]

ppedit @ MTD Mastin did say that AP tried repeatedly to get her to say they were scum.
Why would wanting to go to interrogation make him scum? I know AP said it though.

True, she said something like this, still, that's what AP said. I think mastin didn't really mention him explicitely stating that he scumreads her, but whatevs, I don't see anything bad there.

I.have.no.idea

Oh I also asked them who they thought was scum, but never got an answer to that although Emp said he was there after that.

So, yeah, not very helpful.

[MTD]

I ask what she didn't tell, AP says he called her scum repeatedly until she got annoyed (lol)

Oi! AP! I did tell them that. It's there in both versions, the short and the detailed one. I made it quite explicit my annoyance at you calling me scum.

VOTE: MTD.
Not a fan of the LLD wagon. Why are you all so certain this is a scum kill, anyway?

True, as I said.

Well, what do you expect? There is a single nightkill and we don't know of any town PRs whatsoever, so we should definitely assume some weird szenarios? I mean, I know, bastard mod and stuff, but I'm fine with Occam's for now.

[MTD]

Grey, tell me, why do you think this is LLD's shot?

Who the FUCK shoots Marangal?

So why would LLD? Just to induce WIFOM?

[MTD]

OK, point taken, difficult for me to check from meta (would take p much time), though.
Why didn't the muffin kill point towards her for you then? (that one was pretty wifom-ic aswell)
Btw, shos scum

is

possible IMO, partly because of this:

I have to say that dopog's latest posts make me feel like he is town, but it's 2 hours till deadline, so I'm staying in hopes some hammer will arrive.

ninja'd by mastin

I know this is something town might say as well in that situation, still, it doesn't quite sit right with me.

[MTD]

Btw:

@Mod: V/LA from Saturday through Wednesday.

Maybe I will already be back on Wednesday, but I don't know that yet.

[MTD]

@shos: Try this one: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... start=1650

It's quite old, but that kill is similarly out-of-the-blue IMO, so I am inclined to believe Grey on that one for now.
(first scumgame of her I found)

[MTD]

Back.
What? I am gone for two days and there is just one new page?

@mastin: I am still waiting for any reasoning why you want to lynch me.

[MTD]

Ok, if anyone didn't know, LLD is at L-1 currently and jon said he has intent to hammer, so she should at least come here, although I suspect he was taken out at this point because the police doesn't agree with LLD-scum...

[MTD]

(But to answer both at the same time: I actually did. It was just lost in the small rollback we had.)

Ok, that's possible, but do give some again please.
After all, how are you supposing to get a wagon on on your scumreads without giving out anything to convince the other townies of them?
take the time you need, I will definitely not end the day before that, and I hope noone else will, either.

[MTD]

waiting for mastin...

[MTD]

Deadline is in 5 days, 22 hours, 0 minutes.

....is anything going to change in this time? LLD isn't even commenting, mastin is coasting calling me scum, I think that's a scumteam right there :/

Well, before this day ends, I definitely want to hear from masttin again (I am not at all convinced she is scum btw) and also from jon, including the police's opinion.

[MTD]

Well, yeah, but there is no problem with waiting till deadline? Why rush things?

[MTD]

@Jon, I don't really see a reason why they would say they are not entirely town if they were scumsided (heck actually I don't see why they would say that in any case), so I am still going with some kind of third party, although I am in the dark about how that works out...

Well, yeah them thinking LLD is town was expected, I really didn't expectthe heavy scumread on mastin though, that puts me off somewhat, also I don't think I can agree with a grey scumread at this point.

also @mastin: Well, thanks, that is nothing I can really answer to, obviously, but at least it is something.
About shos: I agree that he claims too much credit for his D1 actions but I didn't really see his other posting as all too scummy overall.

[MTD]

I think I am leaning scum on LLD more than on mastin, regardless of that.

[MTD]

When you're on the outside 36 hours seems like a long time to wait for the interrogatee to get back, but it went too quickly during interrogation for my liking. I guess the only thing I carried away from it is that both AP and Empking think Mastin should be Today's lynch. AP also said that he thought Grey is scum, and that he thinks LLD is Town. I had more I wanted to get from them, but it didn't get to happen.

AP said that they are Kind of pro-Town, but not exactly Town. He also said they wouldn't post in the game thread at all this game.

Mastin is calling MTD scum, but not giving any case that I can see. The same with shos and me. 797 is another example of doing the same. What conversation we (the Police) had convinced me that our best chance of hitting scum is to
VOTE: Mastin2

Oh, yeah. Jon. Forgot about him. He's scum.

3 scum? Srsly?

[MTD]

@LLD: no idea if you think I am scum as well, but if not, do you feel like explaining your scumread to me?

[MTD]

page 30: daay starts at 20 march
page 31: 21 march
page 32: 26 march
page 33: 28 march
today: 30 march

total: 813-737=76 posts, by 7 people, in 10 days.

that's 1 post/day per person.

WAKE UP BOYZ AND GURLZ
and vote LLD

I am here, waiting for answers again.

Also, LLD is still at L-1 i think, and I am not going to hammer yet.

[MTD]

Hum, I did not like jon's hammer post.

These long times between posts can only help scum

How so?

Also, there were still questions being asked and cutting that short is, well....

[MTD]

Ok, I get it, you were annoyed, so were I.
Still, if you have 3 more days and just cut them short when there is at least the chance of more conversation (specifically I was (beside from LLD) also hoping for more from mastin), how does this help scum? It's not like you revert the apathy this way anyway, it

does not matter

when the day ends for that, people would come back then anyway.
Rather, scum profits from cutting of the chance of more information.
Also, LLD

did not

make a point of not answering, she made a point of not answering to shos specifically.
And lastly, if she was in prod range, why the hell not wait for her to be prodde and hope she comes back? If she gets replaced, maybe even better. All in all I am convinced we did not gain anything from ending that day early.
also, I didn't really say your hammer was scummy -it was though, somewhat- but the hammer post didn't look good, I can't exactly lay my hands on why yet, though.

[MTD]

wat?

[MTD]

Well yes, right now it does, cause I have no idea what is going on. Tell me now: do you win with town?

[MTD]

You as in you three obviously.

[MTD]

I mean, the hell, it might even be better for us to lynch you, what are you gonna do then? If town tries to lynch you?

[MTD]

Hum, that's right, didn't think about that lol.
So just waiting (and hoping) it is.

[MTD]

...Are you doing this just to make me even more paranoid than I already am?

Well I guess there is nothing I can do right now anyway...

[MTD]

HAHAHAHAHAHA

To any town: I neither win with you nor the scum. Emp and AP can arrest one person, and will do so shortly. That person will be scum. Lynching me is counterproductive to your win condition, and my claim is nothing BUT testable.

Welp, I meant whether it is possible that both you and town win.
if not, town can't win anyway so "playing aginst our wincon" wouldn't apply.

[MTD]

@shos: If you are town: there is no help, we can't get scum lynched without grey voting.
If you are scum: shut up.

[MTD]

@shos: I think you meant 837?
even then I am not sure what you are getting at? It was painfully obvious that what he stated was right and I was somewhat surprised that I didn't think that through at all. How should I not know any of these things?
If you mean that there are two scum left, that was mentioned as the most probable possibility multiple times by various people, also grey had just said that in 828.

[MTD]

Wait.

If Grey isn't lying (and I don't see a reeason why he would), the cops should soon arrest someone. There is nothing else we can do right now, except find out who is scum for ensuing LyLo.

[MTD]

I think it basically means they have a dayvig-shot.
Also I think (hope) the day continues after that, otherwise town has no chance.

[MTD]

What happens if we lynch YOU, grey? The lack of police cooperation makes me think yiu are scum gambitting.

Have you crumbed being police?
Tell me all that you know, including when you knew what you know.

If he is police we loose, It's that simple.
So wait. If he is scum we can still lynch him near deadline, but that police claim makes alot of sense IMO.

[MTD]

Hm.

Shos, convince me you are not scum
(and I don't want to hear that D1 point)

[MTD]

Ok, so the cops knew who was scum?
Then those converstaions may at least be worthwhile.

[MTD]

Oh, yeah. Jon. Forgot about him. He's scum.

3 scum? Srsly?

No. My statement was saying that I thought jon was scum. Which by definition would mean that I thought one of you was town and that the other was scum, with only two scum.

You assuming that I was saying three scum, however, looks like a scumslip.

C'mon, you said about both shos and me, that our play "heavily seems like scum" in #797 and then in your very next post you go "oh and Jon is scum" without saying anything about the two of us? Very scumslip, yes.

I thought Grey's behaviour towards me was strange, I guess he was trying to make a point out of "not giving scum away", so I can't really argue with your points there.

I donot understand what "arrest" means. If they take a vote away, say ends? Or is it mylo?

Also looks genuine,

I think it basically means they have a dayvig-shot.
Also I think (hope) the day continues after that, otherwise town has no chance.

And also looks fake.

In addition to my reasons from before. I really. Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally think it's MTD.

Well, great, I seriously hope you are scum right now, because you don't sound like you would even stop a second to think about me being town right now.

[MTD]

He's been pushing mislynches the entire game, and been playing cautiously enough to not get caught having done so.

Oh, yes I totally did.
I don't remember really "pushing" any lynch actually, also it's not like town never pushes (mis)lynches, is it?

He's also done a fair amount of buddying to players like me.

Show me where, please?

If you are so desperate for a vote, fine
VOTE: GreyICE
Also Private is lurking, yes, but that is null in itself. so anyway,
@Private: Feel like sharing thoughts?

This is also really.

REALLY.

REALLY

bad.

Because from what I can tell, the remaining scum is a godfather. (AP mentioned the existence of a godfather and a usurper in the interrogation QT I had with him. At the time, I had no clue what it was, but apparently, he actually was serious about those being real, with GreyICE as the 'usurper'.) The godfather very well might have either known or suspected that a scum player was not on their side, thanks to four scum total including GreyICE.

So if the godfather was legitimately scumhunting, well...

What does the godfather have to do with that? What makes him different than

any

other scum in this context? Srsly, you seem to know more about the godfather than we do...
And the defense of PrivateI looks bad, too.
[/quote]
srsly? Saying lurking isn't a scumtell is

defending

someone?

While he did briefly vote PrivateI, he took it off fairly quickly and never really pressured.

No, I didn't, because I didn't scumread him. Sometimes it's that simple.

Btw, shos scum

is

possible IMO, partly because of this:
I know this is something town might say as well in that situation, still, it doesn't quite sit right with me.

@mastin: I am still waiting for any reasoning why you want to lynch me.

Also seems to be setting up the possibility of this very scenario.
[/quote]

[MTD]

whoops some brokequotes

[MTD]

Your posting makes it obvious that me thinking you wouldn't even consider me as town was correct. Interpreting everything your hands can tell as HEAVILY sounding scummy and you STRONGLY leaning scum on me (and mentioning this in every single post) is really entertaining to watch, however, as I said if you are town, I guess we loose. Luckily, I think you are not, but I will wait for shos now.

[MTD]

EBWOP: "grasp" not "tell" in the second sentence

[MTD]

Because a town-you being heavily suspicious of shos, I'd expect to be basically begging me to not jump in and vote you. To ask for time to make a case against him, and whatnot. Instead, you're backing out of your shos scumread to pseudo-omgus me out of necessity because you're concerned that if you 1v1d against shos, I'd side with him over you.

@"heavily suspicious of shos"
I was not...

About shos: I agree that he claims too much credit for his D1 actions but I didn't really see his other posting as all too scummy overall.

This was the last time I really gave a read of him I think

Also I scumread you p much the entire last day.

So this this logic makes just zero sense, sorry.

[MTD]

There's a whole heck of a lot more. You were clearly pointing towards shos. You were clearly buddying me. Until I suddenly said I was scumreading you.

Lol this is so false.
Buddying you for hoping you would say more?
Pointing towards shos for asking him to give me reason to be sure he isn't scum?
You suddenly saying I was scum when you scumread me p much always since you first gave out reads?
Just no.

[MTD]

Also, shos, please say at least something.

[MTD]

Well, I will go to sleep now, hope he checks in again before I come back.

[MTD]

I will not do anything like a full case, because I think you should be able to figure it out yourself with the style mastin attacked me with (faulty logic) and I don't see anything else I can give you at this point, except maybe that you might want to go through those points in mastin's last post and see for yourself whether they are true (I believe many, if not all are either false or no reason for not being scum).

[MTD]

they thought yesterday with four scum alive would be lylo

No.
It was 7p yesterday. There is no way they thought that was lylo with 4 scum.

[MTD]

Oh wait nvm I didn't think right you are right they thought it was lylo carry on.

[MTD]

Though "four scum alive" isn't true obviously, but let's just assume you meant "3 scum alive"

[MTD]

But keep in mind that you said earlier that you think scum knew something about the "usurper".

[MTD]

Again, how do you know so much about the godfather? How is he being "targeted"?
Why does the godfather matter in this context?
Isn't godfather just a goon that shows "town" to cops?

[MTD]

If that last point is true, it has some value IMO, of course there is no way for us to confirm it though...
(I am talking about the lost PM, if that wasn't clear)
(and I mean confirming it was A. lost (maybe we could) and B. you didn't get it back (we can't))

[MTD]

Btw, why do you say GreyICE would be the first player you would lynch as scum when as scum you would have thought he was your scumbuddy? He should be at the same "level" as jon then I think.

I am currently a bit afraid that shos is going to do/ doing what you said you would do as scum.
(watching from the sidelines as we go against each other)
e.g. The posts from jon you quoted do not point away from you as strongly as you said, beacause, as mentioned scum might have known about the usurper (especially after it was mentioned in-thread). However i think they point towards shos much more, simply because that sheeping shos might very well be going for an easy win.
Notice that points away from me as well btw, as I would have gone for the LLD-fastlynch.
Also shos has very actively pushed that lynch. There are more things that do not seem right with his posts I will have to look into them again.
This is the reason I am not voting you, I simply am not as sure it's you at the moment.

[MTD]

Hm okay I didn't know the usurper role, that makes sense I guess.

About the PM: ok.

[MTD]

Alright so here's the deal
Empking and Wind told me to convey a message from the police to town, which I thought was stupid so I ignored it, but now it is pure gold: they said that scum are probably just laughing while we're fighting when they lurk(paraphrase)....this was on February 19th, so I wnet back and saw if either of you lurked at that time or so, and it seems that Garmr has indeed been like that, or something.

so hmmn.

This could so be about Dessew.

[MTD]

Also why is it important whether the police has won?

That "lurker" thing is again something we have no way of knowing whether you are making it up right now or really were told it because if it was there, you were so stupid (if you are town) to

not pass it on

.

Also WTF is this:

They also gave me a really cool power, I'm not sure if I want to be protected tonight. probably not

?

[MTD]

@mod: while you are here, you could update the flips in the OP

[MTD]

Ok so I looked into that policeQT of mine again as well and found, that they did not even as much as mention shos.
On the one hand mastin was the only alive player they asked me for a read on, however then they mostly argued against my scumread on her.

Also in this light it is funny that they never answered to the question who is scum.

[MTD]

Now what confuses me is mastins report of her interrogation.

In there police seems to scumread

both

mastin and shos.
Another thing is that she already mentions the missing PM there, so that verifies it I guess.

What also throws me off is that mastin said that AP

townread

jon.
Interesting that he mentioned AP saying that Grey was the usurper.

Problem is, if I assume they knew who was scum at that point, that makes absolutely no sense, why would they try to deceive town about it?
But at the same time They would have mentioned if mastin had passed along anyting incorrectly.

So. You can't both be scum. They are not consistent with their reads.
I have to assume they didn't know scum.
Btw, I just realized that actually makes sense since afaik they didn't talk to grey before any of our interrogations, right?
Soo.. that makes shos' point there worthless.

[MTD]

PEdit: Until proven otherwise I'm going to assume the faction named "Police" are on my side, or at least trying to catch Mafia, especially since I can't lynch them or talk to them.

Just found this and lol'd

[MTD]

Hm.

@mod: Can you tell us whether GreyICE was taken into Interrogation early into the game?

My problem is, if police knew the scum, how could their reads evolve?`

Except one of my main points against you is that you've specifically avoided trying to incriminate yourself on wagons, while still pushing them. Not voting, but supporting them. How many times have you said "not hammering" or akin, but "support anyway"? (Not exact wording.)

That's true, I did that, but what reason would I have to do that as scum when (I think) I could just go for a quick win, as you said you would have?
Actually only on the LLD one if I think about it, though, and there my point was not "not hammering" but "not hammering

yet

.
I mean, I was on the Dessew wagon and I hammered dopog. I don't know how often I did that on wagons that ultimately didn't lead to a lynch, though.
I do that when I am unsure of a wagon but lean scum on the one being wagoned, I guess I have said that at those points as well.

I have one more thing here. Grey. When the cops took in shos for questioning he ranted about them taking a townie. Now that might be either sincere or him trying to look like a good scumbuddy.
He ranted about them taking mastin too, but didn't explicitely say anything about alignment.
I have no idea what that tells me actually.

[MTD]

Ok didn't read your posts first I will now.

[MTD]

Ok, I think I am probably with you on that last theory (though I honestly can't remember him being in interrogation that early)
So that means we need to look into greys posting more than into the QTs.
Again, I really find Greys posting towards me today strange, as I would probably agree with the points you made about it, and would maybe even scumread someone for it.
That makes it difficult for me to argue on that.

What do you make of shos bringing up the possibility of lynching grey again after it was already discussed?

[MTD]

lol, I just realized I voted jon in the beginning, I seriously was thinking I had townread him all the time and felt bad about that.

Also really helpful:

Honestly, I have really good feelings about Mastin, she's fairly obviously not a good choice. I feel really good about Shos at this point, and I feel really good about MTD

doh.

[MTD]

Ok, so shos main defense was that he would have bussed Dessew D1 (and Grey (somewhat) btw).
So would Garmr.
However if shos was scum, he would actually have bussed ALL of his scumpartners at some point.
You know what? I think I will meta him now, to see whether his claim of never bussing D1 holds up.

I think I mentioned it before but I want an explanation for this post from shos:

They also gave me a really cool power, I'm not sure if I want to be protected tonight. probably not

I can make no sense of it because for all we know it is highly unprobable the cops gave him anything like that.

[MTD]

[quote="In post 925, MTD"

Honestly, I have really good feelings about Mastin, she's fairly obviously not a good choice. I feel really good about Shos at this point, and I feel really good about MTD

doh.[/quote]
Hm that actually could be directed at the cops about mastin.

[MTD]

Ok from meta I can confirm that this much bussing would be esceptional from shos.
So that puts me to undecided again.

[MTD]

*exceptional

[MTD]

Hm?

I need things from shos now I think or I will just be going in circles.

[MTD]

Ok?

Well idk, if shos isn't scum you are and right now both seem about equally likely to me.

[MTD]

Sorry for not seeing it. The only thing in your favor I can see is that bussing thing.

[MTD]

that guy literally has no games as scum, only one I could find, in which he entered the game in post 800 and posted 10 posts

I think you missed this one:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=25457

He replaced into there as well, but had

much

more content than in the other one.

[MTD]

fourth - well yes, I developed the idea that GreyICE didn't know all the scum pre-everything only while reading.. as you can see I'm not yet voting you.

What? This makes zero sense.

[MTD]

I mean it doesn't make any sense to assume that grey

didn't

know all scum at any point, does it?

[MTD]

I'm pretty sure Grey, MTD, and Shos are all Town. Mastin hasn't been scum hunting much, but I do understand why.

For reference.
He went for voting mastin in his next post.

[MTD]

For now I'm leaning

Town

on

MTD This is more from meta of the last game I played with him. Plus he does look like he wants to catch scum.

Scum

Ms. I don't like that she says if she was scum Mastin would have already found her out, plus a little niggling from a scum game she played with me once upon a time.
Shos did something similar, but what convinces me someone's not scum is sensible scum hunting, at least something I can understand the reasons behind. If accusations are totally screwy, there might be scum.

Null

Everyone else.

pedit I'm also interested in Mastin's experience with the cops. I've had this page up since this morning, it got a lot of posts since then. I can't read them, I have to leave (my wife says NOW!)

@ Mastin Can you give us any insights into if and how the Police can be used to Town's advantage. Did they have any good insights into the game? Who are they suspecting, and why?

Mastin is in that "everyone else" pile btw.

So to me it seems jon has called shos first leaning scum and then (without anything in between if I didn't miss something) strong town.
Mastin he had first as null and then (allegedely because of the cops) as strong scum, but distances himself from that a bit in his next post, then goes for LLD instead.

That bit is interesting. He was the last one in interrogation who said something about it (not counting Grey there), and he says police had a strong scumread on mastin.
@mastin: What about that "AP reads me perfectly" then?
on the other hand ofc it is possible that jon was lying there. he didn't really give much detail, like mastin did (and to some extent shos and I as well) and we didn't have anyone there afterwards to confirm.
He always called me town afaik.

[MTD]

Mind, that AP doesn't exactly say he townreads you, he says something like "mastin could be scum, but..." and then some points that speak against my points for scumreading you.

But yes jon lying does make sense

[MTD]

Uh,

@mod: that was not quoted intentionally, I just had that at the back of my mind, feel free to delete it if you deem it bad

[MTD]

Uhm, sorry didn't have much time yesterday, I will look into some of this today again.

[MTD]

ISO 6 and greyices posts of today make me wonder if scum have dayspeak. Jon calls MTD town all over and is alwaysnull on mastin. He dpesnt seem to actually speak with MTD, which he does with mastin.

Meta research ahoy

Well he did call mastin scum allegedly in accordance with the police and voted him, just to go for LLD instead soonish.

[MTD]

Unvote NOW!

What are you even talking about? What about Garmr's posts? He didn't even talk about me.

[MTD]

If mastin is scum, countervoting would gain nothing, if she isn't, I am trusting that she wouldn't just hammer without consideration, so why? As scum, yes, I would have, as townie? No.

[MTD]

mastin's sig says she is always V/LA on weekends...

[MTD]

Kinda wondering how familiar MTD is with my game history, though, 'specially considering he's researched jon. (The answer actually could make the difference between MTD being town and scum.)

I don't really know why that makes a difference, but I haven't really extensively ISO'd either you or shos yet, and I only looked into jon's scum games (all two of them).
So I am not, really, why?

[MTD]

Except my first Newbie game you IC'd ofc.

[MTD]

I think I can agree, that's why I think you are probably scum, but why would mastin need to read that?

[MTD]

Welp I guess that cuts it.

VOTE: shos

[MTD]

I really am town btw, so whoever screwed up, it was not mastin.

[MTD]

If my role PM is right, I am town. That's all I know, so I obviously hope you are scum.

[MTD]

Feared as much, sorry shos.
Well played mastin.