Mini 1959 - Protomen Blitz : Game Over

[Almost Chara]

if you vote for me
youre in big trouble

i wanted to vote you for this, then i read the mod post. :<

hello everyone!
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

GRRRRRRRRR
YOURE BOTH IN A LOT OF TROUBLE NOW

i don't need any more dads, thank you.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

it was one post, no need for an argument.
and we're voteless today, dreal.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

if you really want to be protown you could vote for me or xiao.
preferably xiao because hes probably scum, but either works.

Daddy always gets grumpy when you disobey him ;(

VOTE: Xiao
out of this house.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

There’s no jokes here, you outted yourself. You’re donezo.

what's with this post? it sounds like you were already sure he's scum by this point.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

to reiterate, to be concerned about the momentum of a wagon at this point in this game, is utterly ridiculous

it's never too early to get started with the actual game. his push has generated more content than your argument with Yume, which created more spam as you complained about spam.
i know you don't normally vote at the beginning of games but there's little reason to actively push against moving things forward.

Xiao looks like scum to me.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

again, the issue is that you're concern is around momentum, wagon momentum, game momentum, whatever

it's like "hey look I'm doing a town thing!!!!!"

but it's very premature, when the game has JUST started and not half the PL has posted

scumpings galore

this doesn't look like Gork trying to overplay his towniness at all.
i've seen that, but it sounds like you just don't want the game to begin yet because not everyone is here. what should be done until then, thumb-twiddling? it's readable content, i'd rather have that early.
~Chara

pedit: pocketing achieved, time to lurk. :>

[Almost Chara]

is that votecount correct? thought i was voteless.

~Chara

[Almost Chara]

to make it clear, the issue is that he had concern with getting momentum going, where at this/that point in the game, when the game has just begun and not everyone has gotten involved yet, is premature (the concern = premature) - there should be no concern because momentum happens organically, him trying to fabricate momentum is him going "it's towny to want momentum because it's good for the game so I'm going to do that!" - that's actually anti-town/scummy, because it doesn't let shit form organically

i'd rather not go into a theory discussion here, but have you really not encountered players who push on minor/nonexistent things to get the game moving? whatever fabrication falls away so quickly (like it already has here) that it doesn't matter in the long run. i took it as Gork pushing on a debateably-NAI post, but Xiao's reaction looked like scum. you're assigning all of this LAMIST rhetoric to it that i'm not seeing.
i don't see what's lost by not letting things form organically. i'm not even sure what you'd count as doing so, seeing as the game can only move on once someone makes any kind of real move.

Xiao: answer 59, please?

someone stop me from reading Xiao's move onto dreal as picking the easier town in the conversation to go after. or don't, i don't mind.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

Why’s he easier?

As for 59, cause the info post said scum are called father of the dead and Cheetos’ first post sounded like a dad. I was saying that was him outing himself

ah, i read it as you saying he'd outed himself as scum. i completely missed the dad/Feather of Death connection, i thought you were just making daddy jokes.

between dreal and Gork, one of them is easier to push, in my opinion. not that i have any sort of real read on dreal, it was simply my first thought.
why would scum dreal be flustered about you being pushed?

hello McMenno!
~Chara

pedit: goodbye McMenno.

[Almost Chara]

Almond Charizard: Oh god, I hope most people caught the reference and don’t think I have a weird Cheetos fetish

Idk, why would town Dream be flustered?

no, i still think you have a weird Cheetos fetish.

and that's fair, but i'm not reading him as flustered. just very opinionated about his own beliefs on how to play, which is his usual from what i've seen.
~Chara
pedit: oh, guess he is. haha.

[Almost Chara]

no, that's you not having the ability to understand, as usual, which is why I made a VERY SIMPLE EXERCISE THAT EVEN A 1ST GRADER CAN FOLLOW, AND YET YOU CAN'T FOLLOW IT

what the hell, dreal? she answered you.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

no, she didn't chara, I still don't follow:

how about filling in this blank, titus: "I found it important to establish my non-negative utility role at 6:07 PM when I didn't have time to get involved in the game instead of 8:44 PM when I could get involved with the game because ________ "

this one is actually fine. the first time you did this it used phrasing that was obviously meant to disparage her position before she'd answered.

why are you taking major issue with someone making a hello post before they have time to properly post and then leaving? it sounds like you have a personal problem with Titus, and nothing else.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

The second post is weak evidence for not being really well informed and not paying attention to role PM closely. This game is almost certainly some iteration of the 3 discreet factions like from SU2. We have most of us in the dead (town). Then there's "The State", which is colored green so I'm assuming they are something like the Crystal Gems from SU2 where they have to keep us alive to win (although with Varsoon that's not a perfectly safe assumption to make; he will certainly have iterated on the idea and trying to outguess him is a fool's errand). Then there's "The Father of Death" faction which is red and presumably is scum in the traditional sense.

I think it might be

you

who didn't read the role pm correctly

considering we can win while the Father of Death faction is still alive, as long as all of the State are dead, i really doubt this.
i did consider that Varsoon wanted to evoke something similar to the Crystal Gems, but just because they're green doesn't mean they aren't an anti-town faction.

dreal: 352. stop making posts like this. your explanation with Titus earlier tells me you do have sorting in mind, but this kind of mean-spirited questioning is really bothering me. stop getting personally offended when players disagree with you, maybe?
catching up now.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

I didn't like either of the moves off of me when zachali made the comment they did (chara and xiao, not that chara moved off of me, but, disengaged that line a bit too readily on zachali's word)

I told you why I was pushing that point, and to me it's not necessarily NAI - I was trying to see if I could feel out a nuance between towntitus who just does that and scumtitus who feels the need to establish that because it's what she does as town

when did i make a move off of you? i don't remember doing this. or making a move

on

you.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

considering we can win while the Father of Death faction is still alive, as long as all of the State are dead, i really doubt this.
i did consider that Varsoon wanted to evoke something similar to the Crystal Gems, but just because they're green doesn't mean they aren't an anti-town faction.

we can also win while everyone in the fod faction is still alive and the state faction is dead...

come one, I do not believe you are this fucking dense

so, we can't win from the fod faction when there are 5 dead players alive (not a ridiculous proposition), and we can still win from the state faction. and you still suggest that the state isn't the

main

scum faction? is it because the fod faction has a red name? if anything the fod faction is the more likely "off-the-wall third party faction"

uh... what? i was agreeing with you. RR's point was the one i was disagreeing with.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

352? how is that mean spirited? how is it personal? where am I offended? do you not agree that it is terrible reasoning (or actually, not reasoning at all) to think that because the 3rd faction was protown in some other varsoon game that it would be the same here? how is this not game relevant?

the "move on" and "move off" were more like: I felt like you were aiming towards SRing me and then quickly came off it - I might be able to elaborate better at another point, about to eat dinner

no, i agree with you on the point. the "you have to admit it" part was what bothered me. i said i thought your posting was game relevant, you're just going about it in a way that's bothering me in an "out of game" sort of way. your posting in this game keeps bugging me in that sense.

i'm not scumreading you, in fact you're a townread. your tone just seems really confrontational. i guess i'm the only one bothered by it, or just wrong entirely, so i might ignore it from here.
i was bothered earlier during your questioning of Titus, but your elaboration on what you were looking for put me back to thinking you were town.
where does zach come into this, exactly?
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

Hello, everyone. Almost has just entered the building.

In the News That Day:

"In the unfolding future coming fast, truth will be in the balance, trust it and prevail."

Working fast since we don't have much time in a blitz for my usual banter I'll just say this: if this is a player's ability it ain't ours.

It also sucks not to be able to vote on D1, but maybe it's for the better? We'll have to wait and see.

Let me get to read the thread (while doing another zillion things, mind you)

~A50

[Almost Chara]

It's pretty obvious that Cerb was protecting that we are masons.

Wait it is?
If you wanted to protect masons then hard TRing him sure didn't come off as protecting masons.

Look, your move isn't practical. Who else is scum?

Auto asuming masons are town
Keely is town
You're town lol
Yume I'm coming around to being town.
McMenno yeah could be town
dreal can be town but also die

Scum would be in {Havo, Vax, Desperado, Fuzzy}

we're missing from this list, Furude must be scum. :>

that's a joke. i'd vote here if i could, though.
and then ask how Xiao would use his ability on himself. (granted it's possible, but most active abilities don't allow self-targeting so in the absence of other information i'd usually assume he can't)
that and, what's scummy about Cerb and Drixx not being synced?
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

Xiao coulda used it on RR then.

Also no read on you you need to post more.

that's true, but finding a third conftown instead of confirming a mason as a mason is usually more economical. if one of the masons dies, the living one is now conftown.
i was suspicious of them being one of the anti-town factions too, but that's just because it's a possibility. from a town!Rational perspective, everything i've seen them do has made sense. it does unfortunately mean they're unreadable to me right now, though.

can't speak for what happened in your hood, i suppose.

so you have no read on us because we haven't posted enough, but you have one on Vaxkiller?
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

@Yume: Will you PLEASE refer to players by their USERNAMES? Even if I do work out whom you're referring to, nothing sticks to my memory and I keep looking back for whom it was which interrupting my natural flow of thoughts. THANK YOU.

@dreal: You expressed a SR on our slot on page 14 when I hadn't even posted yet. Well, news for you my friend: You can only scum read our slot based on MY posts. Chara is always Town even when it isn't. I -on the other hand- am always scum even when I'm 100% Town (It's true. Just ask DRAELM)

~A50

[Almost Chara]

*thumbs up to mcmenno*

Why the obscenity?

~A50

[Almost Chara]

You guys are AMAZING, arguing against CLEAR TEXT.

@Titus: You are "considered dead ONLY when it comes to our win con". You are still very much alive an kicking otherwise. You can vote. You can be voted. You can take submit and/or receive actions. You're very much as active as any other slot in the game in every sense, except that you now do not count for win cons so very much am IC for all practical purposes except when it comes to triggering a win con as THAT is where you count as dead.

Btw, I personally don't think that was the optimal move. That ability should've been used in someone "suspicious" so that we may lynch then if they were revealed to be scum or stopped suspecting them if they turn up to be Town, and Titus wasn't all that suspicious to begin with. While she could now be viewed as an IC she could still be killed, and it already affected our win con negatively regardless.

@Cerb: Remember how you used your ability in SU2 and promoted it to be pro-town when -in fact- you had every scum motive to use it and claim it? Well, the ONLY thing stopping me going down that route here is your Masons claim, but to tell you the truth if I was a Cop I'd certainly be investigating you or Xiao tonight. (Unfortunately, Varsoon doesn't even like Cops!)

On the other hand, it does seem a bit out of your character (and Drixx') to fake claim Masons, so I don't really know what to make of it all. You can't be both investigative immune, can you??

~A50

[Almost Chara]

Well then let it be known that if I'm expressing the slightest of TRs on your slot it's mainly bc of Drixx' claim and certainly not because of your treestump target pick. I do realize Titus is still very much active in the game, but still I believe she was bound to obv!town, and sooner than later.

Spoiler: Now for some setup spec (Just meant for the RR duo, so if you're not one of them and you're not interested don't bother reading, and if you don't like it please don't bother responding)

What impressions do the alternative win cons give you? Which faction is bigger based on needing to eliminate one and have 6 players of ANY faction alive vs eliminating the other and have 2 Townies alive?

Also, do you think the Town has a Mason couple AND TWO neighbourizers? If not, would you be suspicious of Yume, Furude or BOTH? And if you DO think both could be Town then what do you expect Scum to have for compensation?

Finally;

@Furude:

Regarding your troubles accepting the Masons claim, we also need to remember that the second win con was initially for only one townie to be alive, but was altered to become 2. This may have been because keeping the Masons alive until LyLo (term used loosely) would guarantee a town win.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

i'm used to McMenno being "lazy" from my limited experience with him. the attitude towards RR is bothering me.
McMenno: what did your "reading comprehension" comment even mean? did i misunderstand something?

i'll ISO Desperado when i get a minute. i like it more than the Furude wagon only because i don't have a read on Desp.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

so it is, for some reason i remembered more.
what's the scum motivation for the nicknames in the first place? intentional obfuscation doesn't work when they've been consistent for the most part.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

22 hours to deadline means i won't be there when it hits.
i wrote, then continued to write even as i remembered it doesn't actually matter. :<

i don't really want to lynch Furude. discrediting the masons privately and publicly is a ballsy scum move, especially when one of them is RR. they'd immediately get blowback when RR flipped town. plus, the thought process that was explained to me in the hood (essentially the same as what's here publicly, i believe) is something i can definitely buy from town Alisae.
i'd rather lynch McMenno. Desp, i can't seem to form an opinion on beyond "not much". i haven't read a few of the more recent pages, though.
~Chara

pedit: sounds like it's decided already i suppose. that's a good idea at least.

[Almost Chara]

which scumread claimed to you, Furude?

Xiao do you mean scum people or town with cold feet?

i'd rather a Desp wagon than a Furude one, but i can't vouch for that flipping scum.
Desperado, why are you following dreal? why's Vax scum?

my problem with McMenno isn't his meta, i don't know his meta, really. in this game specifically he just doesn't feel good to me. the way he interacts with RR, the way he came out with the read on us. it looks structured.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

thanks Gork.
Xiao: i suppose it is pointless, i asked because your "fear that Furude will flip town" point seemed to only apply to town who don't know Furude's alignment, the way you said it initially.
i guess it isn't all that important now that you've elaborated.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

Desperado, why are you following dreal?

did desp say he was doing this?

i asked this because of his last post. looking at it now i wonder if it means less than i thought and he just wanted dreal to join him on Vax.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

^^^^
i don't have anything to add. i've been able to townread McMenno in other games because i see what he's doing, so i don't care for letting him off the hook day one because he's McMenno.
~Chara

pedit: aw. my post is aimed at Gork's.

[Almost Chara]

vax singlehandedly tempting me to bring out pre 2010 Slowpoke memes.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

RR: i brought up part of that to Alisae in our hood. they seemed to back down after. i'm not sure they considered it fully. maybe it's scum backing down but i understand their thought process on being suspicious you didn't conftown yourselves, even if i didn't agree with it.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

But you are letting him off the hook.

?
i want him lynched.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

I just want to point out dreal's lining up lynches which doesn't feel good for the game status as a whole.

For the sake of clarity though, I've played drealm before and also have been in at least one game modded by him, so I know this is not too far off his town play either (i.e. it's null in terms of determining his own alignment), but it still helps scum in general; as it provides them with safe future lynch targets extending over the next 2 days (assuming -of course- that neither of them IS scum).

Keely I spent most of my time providing Titus things to work with since tbh I lost my motivation in derailing this wagon if Cerby and Drixx think I'm scum for sorting them.

My own final reads are
{RR, Xiao, Titus}
{dreal, keely}
{Desperado, Vax}
{Havo, Fuzzy}
{AC, McMenno}
{Yume}

Glgl

Hold on a second.. you think we are scum?? I'd be very interested in hearing your reasoning on this one!

P.S. Sorry to interrupt the flow, Chara. Please carry on.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

zach: was that a response to me? why later? you could still be lynched, and we have a hood if it's private. what do you mean by letting McMenno off the hook?
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

I just want to point out dreal's lining up lynches which doesn't feel good for the game status as a whole.

[Redacted rest of post]

Who is Dreal lining up?

Menno & vax. At least that's how I interpreted this exchange.

why are you even playing this game, vax?

Cause i like when you get mad

then replace the fuck out and let someone in the game who actually wants to play

@ dreal we could just lynch him

being a scumfuck, and all

another Day if he doesn't shape up, just like mcmenno he can become a STU lynch D2 or D3 imo

~A50

[Almost Chara]

you really think scum just lets a town furudehanyu sit there at L-1 that long and not hammer so mcmenno can be wagoned?

We have 2 scum factions with unclear win cons to us. One possibility is that one (The State) is afraid of hopping on Furude lest he is a member of TFoD, in which case they'd be doing us a favour getting us closer to win con #1 (This is why I brought up the unknown win con, because we don't know if we can win WITH either faction or if the Town winning means the Scum lose even if still alive. I even tried to ask Varsoon and he said something to lines of "you only get to know your own win con with the given phrasing" so he basically declined to answer that one).

Another possibility is Scum is a member if The State and TFoD already are on the wagon. Let's not forget we are voteless today, so it's much harder to get someone to L-1 w/o there being scum on their wagon.

So many possibilities, and the fact Furude got to L-1 w/o being hammered does not exactly either incriminate or clear them IMHO. Not until we do see a scum flip.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

Nothing. You're all scummy. Every last one of you have done nothing that's town.

Which sucks.

-Cerb

you

might

call Vax's Furude vote and subsequent "if it flips town it's on you" town for the sheer ridiculousness of it. vote McMenno, Vax. or hell, Desperado. not someone you aren't scumreading with "it's on you".

dreal, that i've read McMenno as town before and am not doing so here isn't why i want him lynched. it's why i don't agree with "McMenno shouldn't be lynched on day 1" .
~Chara

pedit: it is a silly game, Cerb! i'm having fun!

[Almost Chara]

should have used it on furude

Nice to see you finally coming around to agreeing on what I said from the start. It's all in the past now though so let's concentrate on the day lynch. I think Furude is NOT the right choice for the lynch. If they're Town they will most probably be shot by scum tonight anyway so why should we do their dirty work for them? We can worry about Furude tomorrow if they're still alive and we have no better leads from the flips.

It's Menno or Vax for me today. Yes, I know I can't vote and it sucks, but I can try to share some thoughts still. Vax I'm not feeling strongly either way because I've seen him lurk-to-death as scum before, so it looks like he is posting more frequently here in comparison.

Menno is not only being useless, but I also get the feeling he's being insincere in his post, i.e. I get a feeling they're all fake. I don't know how to explain it better that to say "guts" (yeah, that dreaded word) but I also feel that his flip will reveal more associatives (one that's most important to me is he can't be scum with RR, so that'll be GOOD to know if Menno does flip Scum).

~A50

[Almost Chara]

Vax didn't claim anything. Cerb and Drixx reasoned megaman/protoman from Vax's claimed ability.
McMenno wagon is good wagon here. Desp is better but only because it's not Vax. scum doesn't make the error Vax just made, either. i believe he mistook everyone being citizens before flips as everyone having the same

role

before flips.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

For the record, protoman started off as a hero and ended up fighting against megaman, the 2nd generation of him. So he could fit the flavor and just be the evil version...if you're going off megaman canon, as opposed to the protoman albums.

-Cerb

i don't know too much about mega man, but proto man doesn't appear to be a villain. just a rival character to mega man that sometimes helps him.
not that it matters, as this maybe has nothing to do with the Protomen flavour.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

but he's clearly shown not to be paying attention or thinknig about things and a list doesn't counter all the other evidence to that

why don't we wagon 4 other people before deadline, get all the claims, and then lynch farude because it's the least valuable to town

SOUNDS LIKE A GREAT IDEA

he's missed several obvious things from thread skimming but that isn't exactly cause for him to be scum. i don't often cry townslip but the way Vax's claim came about looks very genuine. if he's scum he faked the error very well. it's possible, but with his play this game he'd have to be playing the long con of being clueless.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

Don't be sour drealmerz7. Vax is probably town. I'm not happy about it. I had him firmly as a scum read until the moment I realized what he was claiming. There's no way a scum!Vax doesn't outright claim the flavor of that. The way he claimed is townie, and what he has for an ability is an exact description of how megaman gains abilities.

scum Vax who knows we all have Citizen PMs doesn't claim the flavour of that unless he's really that bad.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

scumbuddy instruction is possible. Varsoon

always

provides scum fakeclaims at gamestart, however.

Cerb and Drixx: the State is not like the Crystal Gems. once we get down to low numbers removing the State becomes the

only

way to win the game. killing a Father of Death member at less than 6 players alive isn't even a victory. the State is anti-town. both of them are.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

if vax's claim is true, then shouldnt it probably say that someone other than electric man does the action? we could just see if thats what happens?

i don't think this would necessarily be the case. whether the initial vote removal is from The State like Vax says, or from Vax himself, i'd think it'd be a different robot each time. in-flavour it wouldn't make sense to have Elec Man die multiple times.
~Chara

pedit: 911 i've been saying the same thing. also McMenno is scum, i'm very sorry to have to tell you this.

[Almost Chara]

in-flavour it wouldn't make sense to have Elec Man die multiple times.

electric man died wha?

"the remains of Elec Man were found strewn..."
:>

[Almost Chara]

Holy batman fast posts.

Thank you AC. I'm still a little confused. It's clear we can win early with The State, but then at a certain point of attrition, our win con changes to eliminating them. Doesn't that imply that "The State" would be highly motivated to help us eliminate "The Father of Death" super fast?


Why the resistance to Desperado? Can someone show me some reason not to go there?

VOTE: Desperado

i just wrote a bunch about win conditions and then realized that if The State lost when the town achieved the first win condition for eliminating the Father, then they might as well be the same faction. i'm still not sure we can say anything definitive about who wins with who without actually seeing other win conditions. my PT with Almost is full of this stuff, haha. :>

nothing wrong with the Desperado wagon.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

Umm Drixx, that's not obvious at all. Maybe you should read my posts cuz I'm like half of you. :p

The state could LOSE if we kill the father of death too fast, and could thus be incentived to obfuscate and keep that faction alive.

-Cerb

damn it. this possibility is exactly what i spent all time writing out before erasing because it seemed like it wouldn't work. now i wish i'd left it.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

like this exact situation is what varsoon tries to avoid

a claim in a varsoon game should NEVER result in a pass

i'm not townreading Vax because his claim sounds like it could be mega man. i'm townreading the mistaken assumption that everyone has the same role PM.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

In order to avoid players from gaming the flavor of this setup, every player will be given a default 'Citizen' Role PM. Members of The Dead will not know their true identity until they are dead.
While roles will still have unique mechanical abilities, their unique flavor will not be revealed until being flipped upon death in the game thread.

members of The Dead don't know their true identity. this implies scum knows their own flavour, or this would have applied to everyone, not just The Dead.

fakeclaims also include fake role abilities. scum can have a role ability that isn't in their town fakeclaim because it's a scum ability.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

desp thinks we think that vax is town because he claimed protoman or because we dont think vaxkiller can fakeclaim.

when it should be pretty clear that the contingents are:
i) that in order for vax to be scum, its like he would have had to have been provided fakeclaim material that made him look like protoman
ii) he would have had to have thought that everyone in the game got the same role, which if hes a part of the state, he likely knows that his scummates have differently formatted fakeclaims than he does.
OR he had to have thought "oh if i do this crazy roundabout thing, everyone will think that i overthought the VT claim as slightly different than VT-VT." i think both of those cases are pretty unlikely.

but apparently we're all just idiots and dont know that we have similarly formatted rolePMs because desperado is so smart and has been following along with the game so closely unlikely everyone else. hurp de durp.

how do you know scum have differently formatted fakeclaims than town?
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

Desperado and McMenno are both perfectly good lynches. Vax and Furude are not.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

how do you know scum have differently formatted fakeclaims than town?
~Chara

im saying that if they have different fakeclaims/fakeroles, vax would clearly know that what he got isnt the townVT role

oh. yes, i see what you're saying.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

i'm withdrawing my useless vocal support for the Desperado lynch. yay.
McMenno is still a good lynch. his theory about Dr. Light/Proto Man being the Father of Death is interesting, though. i don't think it accounts for Vax making that mistake with his role. if he was with the father of Death, he'd have mistaken his Citizen fakeclaim for one that everyone gets by both ignoring the first post Citizen claim and any that belong to his buddies.
~Chara

pedit: hahahahahaha

[Almost Chara]

go be useless in your RL like you are here!

[Almost Chara]

posted that without accompanying message. dreal, you're the one making it toxic. i don't care if one player thinks another player is shit at playing. i don't care who Titus thinks is shit. i don't care who you think is shit. i care when you resort to screaming insults and then blaming others for the toxicity you're sowing and the arguments you're starting. it's been consistently you doing this and making it personal. all game. how about listening to the thread at large, including Desperado, and taking that to heart.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

hey Drelm please take it down a level man

Titus
when have i been apathetic scum Iam almost very active as scum/ You misread me last game and doing the same here

Cara- given that we do not know our roles it just as likely scum McMenno would say this as town Mckeno

BTW has anyone tried to figure out who they are by their ability. I have a few ideas of who I might be,,,,,,,,

Vote Vax-

he seems to be the better options of the wagons we have atm

i thought it was an interesting post by McMenno, but no, it doesn't have anything to do with my read on him.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

i'm voteless

@Vax: Please confirm if this is your doing. Thanks

So, we lost TWO Townies, and one joined The State upon their death while the other was assigned to find (and kill) a member of The State. Nothing has been announced which means The State didn't kill McMenno though. Otherwise, Varsoon should've announced it and Vax should've gained a kill!!!

Now why would TFoD actually HELP The State by killing a claimed flavour Cop designed specifically to find the assassin???
My 1st guess is take our numbers down so as to force us to play for our second win con, but I need to think of what that makes of TFoD.

Second question: Where did the other NK go, ir did The State opt not to use it precisely so that Vax doesn't gain a killing ability?

Oh, and also congrats to those who spelt their guts to Furude om D1. Now The State have quite an advantage over us. I suggest everyone declares in public what they claimed to Furude in details (The State already have that info anyway).

I'm AGAIN being suspicious of RR, but I really can't make an organized case. All I know is this had been planned WELL, and if Furude's lynch resulted in them joining The State (and more importantly The State gaining access to all PTs) I can't exclude the possibility The State already knew that would happen, and WHO stated knowledge of The Reporter existence?? Yup. That was RR.

More when I've wrapped my head around a couple of things.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

Who did everyone vote for the night vote and why.
I voted McKenno ... I wanted to verify his claim

I wanted to vote You (Fuzzy) or Havo because you guys are "passively null" to me. I also have 2 others at null (more or less), but the difference is I have points in their "for" column and other points in their "against" one. You and Havo hardly gave us anything to mark down at either column.

I submitted you, but Chara changed that to Havo just before the thread was unlocked, and I don't know which one Varsoon counted.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

@ almost
Okay thanks...prob Havo. Any reason why you picked a null player over confirming a claim roll.

what do you think about scum being on the Hunya wagon

I didn't see anything in that PM Varsoon sent us to vote that implied any confirmation. All it did was make someone marked as "wanted" for the day, so it was more of putting focus on the nulls to me rather than anything else. I'll tell you I had to revisit the PM right now to see if I missed anything about said confirmation.

Scum on the wagon? Sure. But isn't this the case in every Mafia game? I can hardly think of a game where the D1 lynch didn't have scum on and off the lynchee wagon.

So if you say 1-2 scums were on the wagon then we should lynch OFF the wagon because we have TWO scum factions so no less than 4 scums, and if one is in drealmerz7/Yume/Gorkington/Vaxkiller/Xiao Long (McMenno's already flipped), then at least 3 are in Desperado/TheFuzzylogic99/Reasonably Rational/Havo (Titus is confirmed, Furude are dead and I know my own slot's alignment).

If TWO are in the former 5 (wagon) then

at least 2 others

are in the other 4, so -again- better chance to hit scum randomly there.

So, unless you think THREE scums were on the wagon I don't see your point of limiting the lynch pool to those 5 players.

Personally I'm suspicious of RR. I thought hard about who would want to make us voteless even before the game had started and my nest guess is Cerb. He knows I'm paranoid of his scum game and that I'd do anything to get him lynched or even NK'd if I could. I would have considered others if it was D2 (so maybe we said something or expressed inclination to vote a certain player on D1), but on D1? And now it's even more likely because we can permanently exclude Titus, Menno, Furude and Vax (the latter bc he gets to use whatever ability The State does the next night) so that's one third of the player list already confirmed NOT to have done it to us, and RR is still in the other two thirds.

I know it's going to be a mountain to climb though for me to try and lynch that slot, so I'm trying to collect all shreds of evidence and indications to prove this slot is scum, which -by necessity- would mean Xiao is too.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

UNVOTE: Fuzzy

I don't want Fuzzy lynched yet. I want reactions from everyone. Keep Fuzzy away from lynch range please. We have a lot of day left.

Consider our vote on him in spirit then.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

Drealmerz, who did you vote for last night?

What are your reads?

are you not reading or did you miss it? cause I already said who I voted for

you know I share reads when I want to share reads when I think they're worth sharing or it is time to share them

Ok.

VOTE: Drealmerz

You have a GUILTY on Fuzzt, and you're voting dreal??? How many games do I have to play with you in order to even start understanding how your brain works when you're TOWN?!!

~A50

[Almost Chara]

we covered this yesterDay - he's cheetory

Who is cheetory? (JUST KIDDING!!!)

~A50

[Almost Chara]

That's because I'm a stinking liar.

I wanted to see who would vote Fuzzy immediately when the suspect result I had was an innocent.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

So missed my last post.

And how many games do you have to play with me to understand I always respond while catching up so rarely ever know what the next post to the one I'm responding to says?

~A50

[Almost Chara]

hello! sorry for my absence. (which i suppose hasn't been that long, but Blitz.)
i'll read when i get a second.
i have no idea how to read Yume. but considering SU2, her relationship with Titus, and the situation with RR, there's nothing here that would make me want to vote her. i'd rather trust Titus's read on her unless there's reason not to.

and yes, Drixx, you are that hard to read. everything is mechanics and logic with you two.
working theory was Xiao and RR were the State. let's see where that goes.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

Umm... we didn't shoot you? You're not dead. You just don't count as alive for the purpose of any win condition. That's granting IC status with what I think was meant to be a drawback, except it's not. You don't lose your role or ability to vote or anything. But you did gain mod confirmed IC and since it won't help any faction to kill you, you also basically won't ever get shot. That's a win all the way around.

it's not a win all the way around. Titus being dead for the purposes of win conditions

is

a drawback. you can argue the advantages outweigh the benefits, but you can't pretend there wasn't a downside.

also, i must have missed the part of her ISO where she personally insulted you (in this game?)
why does confirmation of her scumread on you illicit this response?
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

Sooo, they are fake masons? So many words when so little will do.

We told Titus the moment the day ended. She outed it earlier today instead of engaging her brain or bothering to talk to us. She has done pretty significant damage to our (hers and us and whomever else is among the dead) wincon for like exactly zero reason. Like ... whichever faction Xiao is with, there's zero chance he hands us a guilty ever now. GG throwing that away.

Like ... even if through some kind of brain malfunction she decided we're scum ... throwing away someone who is locked into giving you alignment results and has every incentive to be honest about it is about as fucking stupid a play as is possible.

The worst part is that she knows she fucked up and she's being a coward and won't talk in PT to try and salvage something from it. You know someone knows they done fucked up when they're acting like a dog and avoiding interaction.

~D

oh, never mind, you explain right now, of course. i really need to read before i post, now i'm embarrassed.
a good thing that came out of it is i don't see scum RR who is scum with Xiao, ever, saying what they did to Titus in the private topic, so that theory's gone.

i don't know what i want to say here. i guess since i can't make up my mind what i want to

say

about the personal drama, i'll just avoid it. but, Drixx, you have to understand that no, you're not as obvtown as you think you are. this is assuming you're town, but considering SU2 it might even apply if you're scum. i want to just call you town and be done with it though, considering the reason for the issue in SU2 was the whole mastina situation and putting days of effort into things that ended up fruitless. (no, you don't need to elaborate on the situation, i assure you my understanding is complete and i just don't feel like going into every part of it)
~Chara

pedit: ugh. i'll leave that in but, yes, i really doubt you're the only one in the wrong here Drixx. i guess i'll stay out of it, i don't know anything.

[Almost Chara]

actually, yeah. essentially our entire theory had to do with the Xiao/RR masonry and with that gone i'm just going to call RR town and be done with it. i wish it wasn't because of the emotional point but their play also just makes sense mechanically in a way it didn't

quite

hit in SU2.
except for the "no downsides to conftowning Titus" thing. there was a downside.

time for the rest of the table.
~Chara

pedit: for me, it's the claim to Titus that cements it. there's an outside chance that scum RR thought Titus would react differently to the mason fakeclaim after the reveal that Xiao claimed cop, but it doesn't look that way to me right now. i was lazy on reading Xiao because i assumed he had to be the same alignment as RR.

[Almost Chara]

I think I misread the pm....but thats no big surprise.....


I am confused on why Titus claimed me as guilty. Yes I read her reasoning for it but why overall how it would help since people are following a claim cop which
sense. I think Titus may have played one too many games with me bc her logic seems very fuzzy. Which btw annoys me as I am the fuzzy logician here. Stop trying to steal site roles. Next you will be trying to steal my role as the ultiate lynch bait. Shame....Shame on you Titus

Scum would know the result was not true.

This is only true applies in 1-ball games though.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

unvote

Makes sense Dreamsicle

vote Yami

Your quickness to discredit anything Darude said when she was still town doesn’t tho

While Furude were Town on D1, they also KNEW they can only win with The State if lynched, so I suggest they were only interested in finding TFoD as eliminating TFoD would've meant they won regardless if whether The Dead or The State (or both) eventually won the game.

I'd request everybody reread their own PT with Furude in light of that.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

Unless they didn't read their role PM, they knew they were getting lynched and that their win con will change as a result, so they cold still have lied once their lynch became imminent.

So you think they would have tried to play the game in a town way while also playing like a state? How would she even know how to play as state?

Wait would that part have even shown up in her role pm if she didn’t know who she was?

I'll tell you how: I tell them I suspect RR is The State because of the use of the voteless ability on us on D1 and they ignore it and go vote someone totally different right after that. They didn't even try to engage us on that proposition. They just seemed uninterested in getting to the bottom of it.

It also appears that Alisae slipped in the PT with us saying that all he knew is if every player can only win with the faction mentioned in their PM after they die. It didn't mean much back then and I didn't pay it much attention because I was busy trying to prove to then that Titus was still Town by Mod confirmation after they had suggested Titus may gave joined either scum factions ("how do we know she is still Town" is what he asked, and I had to quote both Varsoon PMs and highlight the relevant text that asserts Titus' win con has not changed and the example he gave of 2 Dead players alive then adding "including Titus" as evidence).

VOTE: RR

I could also do Xiao as he would be Scum with RR by necessity, but -if course- RR is the more dangerous of the two (but also the more elusive lynch admittedly)

~A50

[Almost Chara]

I just don’t know if Darude wouldn’t play like town while town, and also unclear about whether Darude would’ve known that part of her role.

Are you suggesting that part was hidden from their role PM? Well, I assure you it wasn't cuz -as I said- they did skip in the PT, but I just wasn't paying enough attention.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

It'll never be over, will it?

You are aligned with

The Dead

.
You will win the game if all players that are a part of

The Father of Death

faction are dead and at least six total players of any faction are still alive.
You will win the game if all players that are a part of

The State

faction are dead and at least one player of

The Dead

faction is still alive.
You will lose the game if

The Dead

are reduced to a single living player.[/cell][/row][/table][/align]

In this is looks like her role still has her having a town wincon, so why would she not play like town?
(On phone sorry for fucking up the format in the quoted post)

Because eliminating TFoD works best for them either way, alive or dead. Why would they try to eliminate The State when they know that if ever lynched they would join The State? Have you ever heard the term "conflict of interest"?

~A50

[Almost Chara]

How is AC null? They've certainly said enough to develop feelings one way or another. How do you feel about their push on McMenno? How about drealmerz unwillingness to lynch Menno d1, but plan for him ti be lynched at a later date?

Soooooo.. THAT's why you shot Menno, eh? You were secretly lining up both our slot and dreal's for the lynch. Nive to be in the light about this one cuz I was struggling with the idea of TFoD making a kill that would benefit you (The State) and even more with the idea of you using both a RB and kill in Menno on the same night.

Now let me go back a few posts and quote:

Regarding Menno death: it's possible the state both shot at Menno and used their power on him just in case he survived, but I think it's more likely the state just used their power on him and the other faction shot at him to make it SEEM like the state were in charge of the nk.

Another RR trademark if good planning. Shoot him and still block him in case it doesn't work. Also it would make it look like the other faction did it, and we can always set AC/dreal's for the lynch.

Like, WHO thinks like that except for the infamous RR duo?

Spoiler: @RR

Assuming the very unlikely that you are Town; would you expect ME to shoot someone

I pushed

if I was The State? Would you expect ME to shoot someone who was hunting for

the other scum faction

if I was TFoD? What was wrong with shooting YOU if I was Scum at all? What was wrong with shooting Xiao? Vax?? Fuzzy??? Havo???? Gork?????

FYI, I expected Vax to be offed on N1 cuz he coppied The State's abilities. If I was Scum of any sort though and had control of the NK I would have certainly shot YOU. U don't expect this to make an impression on you though bc

you are the ones who made us voteless on D1

.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

VOTE: RR

My scum sensors are pinging.

Good vote.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

Also, mod msg'd me with my new one use power. My target cant use abilities in the following day and night. The way this is worded makes it seem like they MIGHT be able to perform a NK still, a sent a msg asking if this would be the case.

So Ice Man's ability would block a factional kill. Anyone I target just would not be able to perform any actions, the bad part of this is that they are notified of this and if I were to take action tonight it wouldn't happen until the next day and night.

Are you saying Menno's check would have been successful last night and that he would have been blocked on N2?

~A50

[Almost Chara]

There's no reason at all to not think we could be hoodmates who strongly town read one another, except for my own abhorrence for town lies...but then again, Drixx was the one who made the claim, so, that goes out the window.

Can you spell D-I-S-T-A-N-C-I-N-G?? Well, news for you, mate: I'm making it my life goal to lynch YOU over Ciao, so as to prove ton everyone you're scum AND to prevent your move highlighted above from bearing any fruits.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

Speaking of Drixx making the claim...

drixx
im telling you upfront
that if this is a fakeclaim
and youre town
im blacklisting you for good.

dont do this if youre just townreading xiao.

It's not a fake claim. I don't put my reads (especially day one reads) above anyone else so I don't do fake claim shit like that.

~Drixx

So if you're not masons we should lynch you as Drixx would never put his own reads above town right?

@Titus: That was a disclaimer just in case Xiao got lynched/shot anytime soon. I wouldn't waste my time arguing with "The Master of winning arguments" because while you may not get convinced yourself they will most certainly be able to convince a player or two with their reasoning which would be just enough for them to avoid being lynched.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

I assure you, Drixx did not put his own reads above town. He does do fake claim shit like that though, or at least it's within his range, which is why I noted that he made the claim, before someone came in like OMG THAT'S A SCUMCLAIM BECAUSE HE'S USING CERB BEHAVIORS TO DICTATE THE EXPECTATIONS YOU SHOULD HAVE FOR DRIXX BEHAVIORS!

-Cerb

OK, Mr wise guy: Straight up: Are you or are you not Masons with Ciao??? ONLY CERB needs to answer this. Thank you.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

*Xiao

[Almost Chara]

Drixx: once he's caught up he'll see it.

good night, all. i've wasted too much time procrastinating and need to sleep.

dreal: that'd be because we're town again. ;>
but no, in all seriousness, i have a pretty good grasp of where i am right now, so look forward to that. still love Minis. knowing (being pretty sure. probably. yes i'm sure) that RR is town goes a long way.
why are you unsure in Desperado town? i found his end-of-day posts to be very genuine. i can go get specifics later. it'll probably help me be more confident in that as well.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

The actions and NK dont make any sense to me.

I know for a fact the State used their ability on the Mcmenno.

With 2 scum factions I assumed 2 kills. But only Mcmenno died. SO they both targeted Mcmenno (crazy) or one was blocked.

I keep thinking about this, and this is how it has to be:

The state used Ice Man on Mcmenno to neutralize the threat (block) and also killed him for a few possible reasons:

A. Maybe the other team gets the NK the next night.
B. The abilities seem to be one time use, so if they kill him the next night he could still pull of his ability and kill one of them.

It's pretty obvious the State were scared because they used their ability and the NK. I'm interested in looking into who mcmenno was scum reading.



I don't like this RR/xiao push

The RB would've only worked the NEXT night, so why didn't they just kill him and use the ability (or any other they have) on someone else? Killing someone tonight THEN RB'in them the next doesn't make sense to me at all.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

but the fact I make both me and my target unkillable and generally untargetable

Then why don't you change your target again to FUZZY?? He is confirmed by a conf!Town.. lust sayin'

~A50

[Almost Chara]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, DRIXX

I sure can wait 24 more hours to lynch your slot


also happy scums day, Gork.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

FoD could be 1 slot,

I doubt it. I mean, I did think along the same lines (because the difference between our two win cons lead to believe The State was a bigger faction) but then realized this means the game could've ended on D1 if we were lucky enough to lynch that particular slot, which is something I wouldn't expect from Varsoon.

It could be 3 The State and 2 TFoD though, as that would not end the game on D1 and can explain the difference between the win cons, but -more importantly- explains why The Dead can also win with EITHER factions. (This last one was confirmed when Varsoon asserted Furude's alignment is still The Dead but can only with "with" The State, which means win con 1 only applies for him as that IS us winning "with" The State).

~A50

[Almost Chara]

Are Cerb and I really THAT hard to read?

YES! I mean, it's hard to scum read you for someone who plays you for the first (or second or even third) time. After that one should realize you always look Town regardless of your true alignment so one should not try to read you the way they normally do, and yes that makes it confusing all the way to China to try and sort you, so I just opt to capitalize on what could be scum!you trying to look like town you. I'm not even sure I make any sense here, so I'll just say yes.. YOU (Drixx) are a hard read (refer to the Coal Miner game modded by dreal). Cerb alone is a hard read (That Varsoon anonymous game is a good example). The BOTH OF YOU combined are a hard read (again, Varsoon's SU2).

But don't make that let you down. In fact it was meant as a compliment for both of you, as you (either or together) always make the game fun and challenging, and the best part is it's done on an intellectual level not just BSing and screaming, so that's why I love to play with you guys (and hopefully one day I will be able to catch you as scum, and I really am hoping it will be in this game, although your recent explanations are starting to make me second guess myself, which in turn is making me think you're doing deliberately to look townie, so I'm going in circles in terms of trying to determine whether you're fooling me for the umpteenth town or if I'm letting my paranoia get the best of me).

So THERE!

~A50

[Almost Chara]

And yes, you are, and I am much more wary of you after you pretended to be on my side in SU2 and then cut me up early on. I will not let something like that happen again.

@Drixx: Looks like I wasn't the only one to get "the RR paranoia disease" from your dazzling scum!play in SU2.

Now add the two other games where I played you two individually (and each was scum in their respective game) and how each of you still managed to fool me even though I was particularly careful of you, and you "may" understand how I feel towards everything your slot says or does.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

still not caught up, doing 5 things

Welcome to my world. Say are you a Gemini by ant chance?

~A50

[Almost Chara]

no one except titus is conftown, mcmenno was supertown as he started participating and then his claim was pretty obviously town on top of it all

Actually, McMenno could've been mistaken for a SCUM!COP if you are familiar with Varsoon's meta of hating the Cop role in general. Of course, that would mean The State could've shot him and I already explained why that doesn't make sense to me, so I'm still of the opinion TFoD are who killed him, which also goes well with them being the smaller faction with the NK (I seem to recall a certain open setip with 2 Mafia who cannot kill and 2 WWs who can, but I forgot the name of it although I did play in a game with that setup).

~A50

[Almost Chara]

VOTE: Xiao

So, it was Ciao who provided the result, eh? And you all believed him? (@Titus/Drixx/Cerb). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I though Mr V hated Cops. Or am I confusing him with someone else? (Kuroi maybe?)

~A50

[Almost Chara]

I already said to you (so you pretending not to know is kind of bad) that I assumed Xiao triggered the PT with us. That seemed like a trivially easy conclusion to arrive at. Since you were able to make a PT with us and Furude made PTs with everyone, then it seems more likely than not that he's on one of the other factions. Keep your friends close; enemies closer. Plus if he bought that we were all in TRing him, he might have given up a partner on the thinking it would get him to a win.

OK. This explanation actually bodes well with me, but still you had to be more considerate of other players reads. I mean, you did what you thought was right assuming you were in control and alive to explain it later, but then we didn't know how you went about it in your own mind, so it didn't feel like a townie move at all. I bought the Masons claim at first, and then I stopped looking at Xiao, and then I reconsidered as I thought your slot was the most likely source of the action on us on N0 (making us voteless on D1), which -if true- meant you were The State as it was confirmed we were silenced by them, which in turn made me SR you AND Xiao.

Also worth mentioning you have shown some hesitation at some point to lynching Furude, and that came after you mentioned your action would only work if The Reporter was alive, and then Furude flips exactly that and I had to wonder if they fave up a sign that you picked that they were The Reporter. And then it was revealed they can only win with The State, and I go back and see that they totally ignored me when I suggested you might be The State, and it hits me again that THEY might have recognized you and didn't want to make associatives, so opted to not engage us on this at all.

That and you keep bringing up "The Dead could win with The State" when -while is true- it's misleading because we could ALSO win if we ELIMINATE The State, or -if you prefer the alternative phrasing- "The Dead could win with TFoD" is just as true.

Like everywhere I looked before this post where you explained your move points to you being The State.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

It now looks to me that we are a SURVIVOUR FACTION. We win withe EITHER other factions as long as WE HAVE AT LEAST 2 MEMBERS ALIVE (I did say "at least" because we're supposed to have more players alive if we eliminate TFoD first). And now I'm wondering -as I'm typing this- if the other 2 factions could also win together if they managed to eliminate us!!

I have so much going on my mind right now so I'll probably be posting a lot of content in the next few hours (remember when I said later when I've wrapped my head around a couple of things?)

~A50

[Almost Chara]

I think flavor mechanic that would make sense for fathers of death is to be able to "recruit" members of "the dead" (into hoods) *looking at yume*

"Flavour wise" I have no clue (I almost never do), but from a mechanical PoV this is absolutely plausible for THE STATE, who need to keep more people ALIVE (eliminate TFoD while AT LEAST SIX players are still alive) than it does for TFoD. I'm open to corrections though if I'm misunderstanding.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

A50, I'm SRing you like I did in british monarchy and unclear about chara...this does not give me good feelings

can you help me? talk to me more about...anything that's going on, your whole slot is not doing enough imo, and with it 2 of you, I would like to feel more PRESENCE (plus I can very well follow how you think and see your POV even if I don't agree)

My fault, I guess. I've been trying not to clog the main thread with all my moon logic assumptions and possibilities until I've seen something to support them or shoot them down.

For example, I've been (and still am) trying to figure out the NK. Was it a direct shot? Was there redirection? Who was it from?

As I stated, TFoD doing it is helping The State essentially (which could be explained by both factions winning if they eliminate us, but that's not confirmed). However, it does make sense if they are just aiming at trimming the numbers down so as to force us to work with them against The State.

The State shooting Menno makes more sense, except for the fact they also targeted him with a RB that would take effect AFTER he's dead. Did they think he would be protected? If so, why not just RB him and shoot someone else? After all, while he would've been a menace to them he also was Town,

UNLESS XIAO IS SCUM WITH THE STATE SO THEY ASSUMED MENNO IS WITH TFoD.

(That assumption would be most logical IMHO, but the RB afterwards still doesn't make much sense).

Any sort of redirection makes me roll my eyes. If it came from either scum side then they already know who made the shot, i.e. know one of the opposing faction members, so I would expect someone to pop up dead and flip Scum tonight (precisely the one that shot Menno), UNLESS only one faction has the kill in which case the other faction should have either made a push or even fake claimed a guilty on said killer (not doing so makes your assumption TFoD are but only one slot a bit more likely than I originally thought ut was, but still the possibility of the game ending on D1 doesn't look likely enough for me)

If it came from of of us they should've claimed already and -again- we do have a guilty on a scumster who has tried to shoot someone but ended up shooting Menno due to redirection, and as there has been no such claim I'm assuming this wasn't the case.

Looking closer though a redirection FROM The STATE makes more sense if it was an individual ability (as opposed to the RB being a factional one, as it's one announced and Vax got). But the question that popped in my mind is "why didn't they redirect Menno to -say- Titus then?"

A redirection from TFoD makes less sense because why on the planet redirect action to Menno? Why not Vax' action to someone of their own choice?

Another form pf redirection Chara brought up in the PT was Bus driving, but that's bastard and Varsoon said the game isn't bastard. That would've explained nobody claimed a guilty on the shooter bc the Bus Driver wouldn't know who took the shot, but only whom it was intended for.

On a totally different line of thoughts McMenno looking for a certain flavour reminds me of one of the last games I played before I took my break from Mafia. In that game there were 3 Mafiosos and one was The Marquis, The Town had a Cop that was looking for The Marquis, but if the latter ever got lynched while another Mafioso was alive they would take over (i.e. another Mafioso would be "promoted" to that role)m so it's possible Menno was assigned to find the whole faction of The State but only starting with "the one in charge". Again, pure mechanics speculation that I have no proof of.

There's little more going in my head, such as whether Vax' role is more likely Town or Scum, nut I was also more focused on the RR slot I almost wanted to put everyone else on hold until that one got figured out for good.

Anything more, just ask.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

@Drixx:

I'm almost caught up now and I apologize for the hard push (which was still justified from my own PoV at the time)

I don't want to lynch Xiao regardless. RR might have gone for hero play. RR or Drealmerz today.

But both are likely town! I mean, I've come around on the RR slot and dreal loos like the exact dreal from the Monarchy game so I have no reason to Sr him.

It's Ciao, Vax or Yume for me, but I make Ciao a much more confident lynch on scum (and I've decided to keep calling him Ciao as it appears he doesn't spell a simple player's name correctly, so why should I?)

~A50

~A50

[Almost Chara]

I suppose you're referring to the claim part of my statement - it's not just his claim but how he went about the claim, I would have not voted him the rest of the game after his EoD1 play I'm pretty sure

I was indeed referring to the claim resulting in his death. If Ciao is a scum!Cop and is assigned to find TFoD then The State must've thought McMenno was his counterpart in TFoD.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

Xio Long has to paint himself into a corner if scum by clearing or confirming people.

Titus, with all duo respect you're not considering the possibility of Scum being able to win together of they eliminate Town. We don't know that for sure, but it is possible and in this case all Ciao needs to do is find someone from TFoD and call them Town. If he does this will tell TFoD that The State are willing to work with them and we would have created a monster that will come and bite us all in the rear.

So, please try to think things over from all angles and possibilities. Leashing an outed SK is one thing and leashing a scum Cop is totally another (I don't even agree to leashing SKs ftr. I'm just saying that it makes a bit more sense than leashing a Scum Cop).

Also, we maybe in MyLo already as to our first win con. We are down to 11 already, and there's no guarantee there was only one NK last night (one could've been on YOU even ig they didn't believe you were BP). This means if we lynch anyone not "red" today and both scum kills go through we will be 8 tomorrow and it means we can't lynch more than one person before we are already less than 6 players. In other words to maintain that win con we need one of 3 things (and only one we even have a say in):

1- Lynch TFoD (Ciao is likely The State so we probably need to lynch Yume or Vax, but then I would say we need to leash them both over Ciao if all 3 were confirmed Scum bc one is a protector and the other has abilities that we know of beforehand).

2- The State shoot TFoD successfully tonight (we don't control that kill)

3- TFoD are actually one slot (we don't know that).

So, if we're not necessarily aiming for our first win con anyway then we aim for the second already. We have no reason to delay a lynch on Scum really.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

Why aren't we lynching Drealmerz again?

Because he sounds exactly the same as him in that Monarchy game where he was Town, but you probably didn't notice because you were Scum and were lynched relatively early in that game.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

@Titus: Please let's leave dreal out of it for a minute, and let's talk about the claimed Cop in light of Menno's flip. Menno was TOWN and was assigned to find only one flavour (possibly repeatedly, but even that is unlikely). If Ciao is Town then The Red Assassin must be GF to him. However, the way I got it is Ciao is only in charge of finding TFoD members. So the Town gas TWO Cops in a 13-players VARSOON game?

OK, he's Town and we had 2 Cops. What Scum have to counter? A one shot RB and a NK (possibly alternating between the town or possibly only one faction can kill, but still each with their own kill is possible).

Now let's assume 2 NKs (maximum power to balance against 2 Cops whom should not have claimed both on D1, but whatever). Are you telling me we ALSO have Yume on our side with a role like that? And Vax can use whatever The State uses?? This sounds like it's insanely Town sided a game, and even more so if we assume one NK either from the same faction of alternating between the two.

So, there's GOT TO BE scum in Yume/Vax/Xiao. If you accept this then you tell me which is more worthy of "leashing" (my own PoV Yume's the most beneficial role to us as long as she does neighbourize the players you suggest, followed by Vax because we already know what he does before he does it so can easily be controlled). Xiao makes no sense unless he outright claims The State and then ALSO checks whomever you pick, and EVEN THEN there's no guarantee he's not lying about it.

If we lynch drealz and he flips Scum that's great. Now what if we lynch him and he flips Town? Same question for RR. What next? Notice that I'm not even arguing either is Town here. I'm assuming all possible outcomes.

What I'm asking is that you think what IF you're wrong here. I'm more concerned with us keeping control of the lynch (i.e. we remain the majority all the way to the end). That would not be much of a problem in a normal setup that involved Mafia and WWs because we KNOW they need to eliminate each other still. The weird win cons in THIS game though takes that knowledge away from us so it could be that they can work together to eliminate us.

Think about it.

~A50

I didn't even realize I hydra slipped until Mr V PM'd me about it!

[Almost Chara]

It reduces the numbers alive for scum to win. They kill someone and move closer towards winning.

This is true, which is probably one of the points FOR RR not against them. If I was Scum with that ability I would have used it:

a- On a controversial/suspect slot
AND
b- Towards the end of the game

I don't see the benefit of using this ability on D1 for scum!RR except maybe to win your trust, but it's clearly not worth it and they knew better.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

*sigh*
All this talk of “oh xiao can’t be a cop cause Varsoon hates cops”

Y’all do realize he hates multiball as well, right? Smh

1- Varsoon apparently hates to PLAY in MB, but this certainly isn't his first (or second) time to design a MB setup.

2- You're oversimplifying the issue. I'm not SRing you just for being a Cop, but rather because it doesn't make sense for Town to gave all those powers, and there is already a flipped Town Cop.

3- Another minor reason to SR you is the Town already had a neighbourizer in Furude. Then Yume also can create hoods (forget about her protection for now. I'm only discussing hoods). Then YOU also have that ability!!! Are you telling me all 3 are likely Town?

4- Your neibourizing ability is one shot (correct me if I'm wrong), and The State abilities are one shot. Now add that you already claimed you were specifically looking for TFoD and you might understand.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

I would if Vax weren't objectively a better lynch.

-Cerb

Walk me through that one, of you please.

~A50

Darn it! Two in a row.

[Almost Chara]

It reduces the numbers alive for scum to win. They kill someone and move closer towards winning.

This is true, which is probably one of the points FOR RR not against them. If I was Scum with that ability I would have used it:

a- On a controversial/suspect slot
AND
b- Towards the end of the game

I don't see the benefit of using this ability on D1 for scum!RR except maybe to win your trust, but it's clearly not worth it and they knew better.

~A50

RR's ability shut off if Alisae hydra was dead thus preventing him from doing B.

True, but that doesn't exclude/nullify A, and they had all day to figure that one out rather than use it that early on someone who wasn't even looking suspicious at the time.

Each Scum faction wants the OTHER SCUM FACTION out ASAP. Neither cares about eliminating the Town unless they have to (i.e. certainly NOT on D1). TFoD "may" have the incentive to downsize the numbers, but it STILL would've been better if they did it to someone they suspected was The State.

So, I'm suggesting RR can't be The State because there was absolutely no point in then using that ability on you, and also not TFoD because they would have waited until they developed reads and then tried to land it on someone they suspected was The State.

What they did though was rush things out to confirm a Townie and one they know would have been more likely to get into quarrels with many others (whether you or the others start it).

For instance, it's no secret you and dreal go into some personal ego stuff every time you guys play together. It's also no secret you clash often with the RR duo themselves. Scum would have loved that to be the case WITHOUT you being confirmed. It would have wasted a hell lot of time and energy on anything but trying to figure out everyone else's alignment, and they were guaranteed to "not lose" (of not outright win) the battle.

Can you see my logic there yet?

~A50

@Cerb: Yeah, got it. I thought you were saying it's a better lynch than Xiao.

[Almost Chara]

RR or Drealmerz. Pick one. If I'm wrong, I'll just let Fuzzy take over.

Neither, and I'm not even comfortable with Fuzzy taking over seeing as he is NOT CONFIRMED.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

Titus, justify your Vax position please.

-Cerb

Vax passed my Fuzzy gambit.

Vax's role has utility. We can block a player like you or Drealmerz who should have no action.

Come on!! FGS! Every Scum would have thought you got a guilty on one from THE OTHER faction. That's no evidence AT ALL. Not even close. Why do you keep acting/thinking as if this was single ball?

~A50

[Almost Chara]

Who is a flipped town cop?

Are you reading the game??

~A50

[Almost Chara]

1. How would you know if State abilities are one shot or not unless you are State?
2. Did I say I was specifically looking for FoD people? Either way, FoD is red. To me, red = bad.

1- Evident from the fact it's mod announced and Vax gets it next.
2- Didn't you claim you were a Cop assigned to catch TFoD? Or did I misunderstand what RR said you claimed to them?

3- If I am wrong on #2 then that's EVEN MORE SUSPICIOUS. A FULL COP + one who is looking for a certain scumster, both Town and in a Varsoon game??

~A50

[Almost Chara]

i need to spend more time looking at the damn deadline.
don't forget about us, Cerb! :>

deadline lynch, whoo. sorry, everyone. i know Almost has been here but i should have been too.

dreal: RR and Desperado shouldn't be lynched today. RR is just town full stop, and Desp is a good townread. if i'd had time i could be more confident about it, but. well. blah. i didn't have time so there's no helping it but we actually have a vote today so i should have been around.

i think Xiao is a scum cop. either way, better to leave him today and get a report than lynch him in case that's wrong. i haven't had opportunity to talk to Almost about that. leaving him until lylo is a bad idea. we don't know scum numbers or when lylo is.

why is Vax off the table?

i'm here until deadline.

Varsoon, why was our votelessness confirmed in every votecount but not Desperado's?

~Chara

[Almost Chara]

what has you confident in Havo scum, Gork? i'm ISOing you now but i'm here so we may as well chat.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

Also, I quoted these because I do not like they way they sound, it doesn't come from town thinking. The second quoted post almost sounds as if it comes from a "state" point of view trying to show town that they probably arent THAT bad because they probably have X-shot NK's, and its possible that the state has no more kill abilities!

i don't understand this. you say town couldn't have this thought process, but it makes sense that only one faction has a kill ability. or that they share it odd/even. fuzzy hasn't done anything to be locktown but i'm feeling better about him than other slots in the game. that he would be more inclined to want to work with Xiao after he innoed him looks real. i don't think fuzzy and Xiao are teamed, either.
~Chara

pedit:

thank you.

that's about what i thought.

[Almost Chara]

poe and hes been a lurksack/hasnt really taken any kind of serious initiative to try and get things done like ive seen him do as town

i have him as really, really null. i think he could flip either way. it's not a terrible lynch but i think Vax is more likely scum.
what's your read on us?
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

if you mean to see if they're on the same team as you say, i'll go do that now.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

a50 feels like hes playing differently from real folk. but you also feel like youre playing differently from real folk. so. youre a pretty muddled read atm

can you say something about us that isn't meta from one game, then? we both play different in-hydra and out, and i think i replaced out of Real Folk because it was awful. i didn't even remember Almost was in it.

on Vax: i'm doing the double-ISO now, so let's see.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

The thought process sounded like he was trying to minimize the negative impacts of one scum team vs the other.

this is what Almost and i were thinking from RR's day one talk about the State. what did you think then?
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

why do you care so much about my read on you? its not like im pushing you?

i find figuring out how someone is approaching a read on me to be useful when i know i'm town. less useful in multiball, maybe, but scum in multiball still need to make up some of their reads.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

yes, that is what the post above yours implies, Gork. :>
~Chara

pedit: Vax, i think RR is town. i wanted to know why their posts about the State's possibility of being a town-friendly faction didn't bother you yesterday. you can ctrl-f Crystal Gems and you should find the relevant ones.

[Almost Chara]

so, you want me to go back and look at your ISO, and get an opinion of you, so i can post it at you, so you can then sort my opinion of you, rather than just reading the shit-ton of content ive already put into the game to try and sort me from that? you really think thats a good use of my time this close to deadline?

um, no? i wanted to know if you had an opinion that wasn't lazy meta. if you don't, just say so and we can be done with it.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

dont get in the way of me bullying people!!!!!

i take it that you don't have much of an opinion. i asked because you said PoE for part of why Havo was scum, and meta on what seems to be just towngames for the other part, so i wondered where our slot was in that PoE.
i'm attempting to settle my gut distrust of you by seeing where your head is at on something that seemed like an easy thing to talk about while we're both online.

why would both scumteams know you aren't on the other scumteam?

dreal: is the why of that in your ISO, dreal?

i'm almost done the Vax/Havo ISO. i think i know where Desp got what he did. so far it's told me more about Desp's thought process than whether those two are teamed.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

hm.
actually, yes, i'd be more willing to vote Havo than Vax of the two.

Desp, is it that both of them dance around interacting with each other or giving reads on each other? and in 134 Vax votes Xiao. Havo is talking to Furude and soon after Furude votes Xiao, and Havo asks why. there's no mention of Vax's vote, but that could be because Furude and Havo were already engaged with each other. so it's moreso the first point that could lead to them being teamed.
looking back i don't think i want to lynch Vax after all. it does seem to be that he just missed RR's mentions of why the State could be friendly, and i still don't see where scum Vax makes the mistake of thinking everyone has the same citizen PM. i'd discounted it because he seemed to be disconnected from the game as a whole and it could be NAI, but looking at the ISOs in comparison, Havo feels worse.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

Gork: i don't think i have proper experience with your towngame? unless it's Real Folk, which i've said isn't a source of experience for anything because i don't remember it.

i'm parsing the game as i can with what time i have, but i don't see why asking what i believe to be a simple question is so disruptive that i can't do it now. i can multitask, and interaction-based reads are my bread and butter. Havo isn't here for me to talk to, but you are.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

Gork: that's fine, i agree.

i'd like to know why there are Yume scumreads, too. i wouldn't know where to begin reading her and am hoping Titus can. RR's reasoning for having her as town is enough i wouldn't be lynching her.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

you want to lynch them on that paranoia when you haven't made up your mind either way?
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

vax's ISO does not look like scum at all.

im not particularly convinced by any reasoning hes pushing for fuzzy either.
especially not the "lynch fuzzy to determine if xiao is on the level or not!"
like, yes, theres the outlandish chance that xiao tied himself to fuzzy, but hes also made himself hardcore nk bait if hes not on the nking side and has also basically tied himself to giving results from now on until endgame.
if fuzzy/xiao are scum together, its not exactly the most stable of relationships.
theres a minimal amount of information gained from a townflip on fuzzy.

havo hunting for flavour instead of scum in this game is hard to wrap my head around

i'm about here on Vax. i find fuzzy's posting today is weirding me out, but i don't want to lynch him when i'm pretty sure dreal is right and Xiao scum just innoed a town.
Havo's explicit "i've been looking for ways to use my role instead of for scum" is actually the towniest thing he's said all game, yes. that's not discounting that scum can be honest in an attempt to look genuine.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

Oh
It just says each night I can visit a player to discover their alignment.

it's that vague? and what was the alignment you received?

Varsoon should be able to tell you if you get Town/Not Town (or, The Dead) or if you get told which of the three someone is, no?
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

unvote

vote Gork

I dont like him outing player.......... Havo really was not likely to be lynched and there was time for other wagons to move. Feels like he was outing a role for scum shake/ Also on the Hanyu wagon

Havo agreed he was likely to be lynched, he even brought up day 1 as a reason for why he outed his role. how is this Gork's fault?
~Chara

pedit: oh, if i was doing that i didn't mean to. but, noted.

[Almost Chara]

like, is everyone seriously okay with havo trying to say that hes only been hunting for flavour here?
lol

not really, no.
i just see why dreal is townreading it.

Titus wants dreal, and RR, and i think both of them are town. the only reason we're even getting a lynch is thanks to plurality. if Xiao and fuzzy are off the table (not that i'm scumreading the latter) Havo is my best bet.
don't believe i'm wrong on my other townreads.
VOTE: Havo
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

vote Drealm-
bc sheeping Titus semes like the best move atm given my inability so far

this is just bad to do, you have no reason, and are sheeping someone who hasn't even been around, doesn't even know why desp isn't voting, and has a huge ego bias against me

egh, wish this slot was more votable

actually, this, yes.
fuzzy, you haven't really seemed incapable this game. i've liked your setup spec. i was actually more suspicious of you because you seemed to have a good grasp on things and it seemed so different from the fuzzy i easily townread in SU2.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

how are you all reading this so wrong

havo is scum who forgot that town doesn't know their flavor

you know what?
yeah.
how does town Havo think that the Fiance could know their flavour and be town?
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

VOTE: Vaxkiller
back soon.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

fuzzy, TFoD wins when all the State are dead, and loses if the Dead get down to one player.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

Ok so the FOD wins by killing all The Dead player,,,,,,, interesting,

And I REALLY want you flipped bc it's evident you're not reading shit! How could anyone come to this conclusion when the win con is right there for all to read and reread and reread again until they get it! Chara rightfully corrected your illogical and totally misleading statement. They LOSE if we are down to 1 living player, i.e. they lose if we lose, i.e. they're totally TOWN FRIENDLY. WE can win without them (if we eliminate them today), but they CANNOT win w/o us. They're the Crystal Gems of this game (and you were there in SU2 so you totally know what I'm saying).

@Others:

I have but one question: Wasn't The Reporter lynched on D1? WHO is posting the news at the beginning of the day still?? Not as important to know, but I just find it intriguing we are getting a news feed on D3 when The Reporter has been dead for 2 days.

Actually, I lied. I have a SECOND question: Should we be "sportsmen" (erm persons I mean) and go looking for The State now (thus allowing TFoD to win with us, like we did in SU2 and before that in Gistou) or should we be selfish and try to end the game today lesr we fail to catch all members of The State before our numbers dwindle??

~A50

[Almost Chara]

someone created a hood with someone
someone caused someone unable to use their abilities toDay and toNight
someone killed somoene
someone sent bomb man to someone
someone investigated someone

Interesting.

So, Yume created a hood with Ciao, and Vax blocked Fuzzy for the duration if D3/N3. A kill was prevented (so either Ciao. Titus or Yume were targeted by the NK), and "someone" made Gorkington hated today. If Xiao is the only claimed Cop then the investigation is his.

I will stick my neck out and say the Gork is definitely Town now. (But feel free to do that thing with Chara anyway if you feel like it). We should wait for Xiao's result before we start voting more I think. Not that I tryst him, but it may hive us a better idea anyway.

[Almost Chara]

I am thinking that its likely that The State wins if all the FOD dies and there atleast x members of The Dead alive.

Another unsubstantiated assumption that you just bulled out of your ear. First you tried to paint TFoD as evil, and now you are trying to paint TS in white, and I wonder why? I mean REALLY! Like the flip is out there and you totally misinterpret it, and then you go and ASSUME TS are also friendly with no flip and nothing to support the idea AT ALL. Tell me why.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

@Titus: Will you PLEASE leave dreal alone? His ability is all town. It's a global motion detector of a sort, and he knows not the source nor the target. What good is a role like that for scum? Also, scum wouldn't be sharing this info with us if it was in their hands.

If you look closely drealz asked Varsoon about Furude's posting rights in The State PT in 1288. The State would not have asked that in public. They would readily know or they would have asked IN the PT.

drealz hammered Gavo, and given the win con he would not have had to distance from Havo if he was TFoD.

drealz and Gork are TOWN ALL TOWN.

Also Yume is likely town or TFoD, so I', mot lynching her either. There's no benefit for The State in protecting a confirmed Townie.

Vax is another candidate of being TFoD. He definitely is NOT The State as he gets to copy their abilities the night after they use it.

I'm not lynching outside of Xiao/Fuzzy today. A Xiao scum flip should be enough to clear RR and makes the clear on Fuzzy soubtful, while IF Ciao flips Town somehow we can lynch RR next and Fuzzy becomes confirmed.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

@A50: I'd like your claim.

Not unless Titus demands it.

If you're asking if we are TFoD though, I'd point out we were the 2nd vote on Havo yesterday. I would have been glad to announce we are with that win con, but we are not

~A50

[Almost Chara]

Should we be "sportsmen" (erm persons I mean) and go looking for The State now (thus allowing TFoD to win with us, like we did in SU2 and before that in Gistou) or should we be selfish and try to end the game today lesr we fail to catch all members of The State before our numbers dwindle??

So nobody wants to answer this?

~A50

[Almost Chara]

I'd love to just kill all the state cause I feel that way about the flavor (:

I feel the same way TBH

~A50

[Almost Chara]

Lets wait to hear from our State cop xiao and see if we can win by killing FOD.

So I take it as a vote for the swift win.

That's AC & dreal for winning with TFoD, and Vax with winning with The State. Anyone else?

[Almost Chara]

that's only one half of AC. i know there's winning the fun way, but there's also winning the best way. i really doubt there's more than one TFoD left.
Vax's last post isn't convincing me. it looks stilted. Havo flipping red makes me think Vax is just his partner and we can win today by lynching him.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

@Fuzzy: If The State win con is similar to TFoD win com then try to explain the difference in OUR two win con options. Why would we win with The State if 6 players of any alignment were alive, but with TFoD if only of us were alive?

Also, not reading doesn't make you scum, but stating the exact opposite if the mod provided info does. If you didn't read the flip you would not be trying to convince us that TFoD wanted to kill us all to win. THAT is what is pinging me.

Then you double down on it and try to make it sound as if The State are also friendly, which then doesn't make us "Town" at all. It'd be more of a 3 non-Town faction competing together, and you know what's wrong with that? The simple fact we were told we are THE TOWN in our PMs (unless you didn't get one of those and failed to check the top of the sample role PM, which is possible since you've just admitted to not reading everything).

Ok, let me be more blatant on this point: I don't believe you wouldn't read THE TOP OF YOUR ROLE PM to learn of your own alignment. I do believe you might choose to skip reading the sample role PM though as either alignment. The difference is if you got a Town PM you would nit have missed it since it is exactly what's on the sample PM. If you got a different Role PM though that would explainm how you missed it.

We are the Town. As such there has to be a faction that wins by eliminating us, or at least by bringing us down to just one player alive (thus triggering our LOSS con, which happens to be the same LOSS con for TFoD).

The way I read our own "loss con" combined with TFoD's gives me the idea that it's more likely that The State win if there is less than two living The Dead players in the game.

If The State ALSO required 2 living Town players then what the hell?? Let's all claim outright and the two other factions can battle it out between them and we can watch and cheer and get our win handed to us on a silver plate since neither would want to harm us anyway. Can you see how ridiculous this sounds yet?

~A50

[Almost Chara]

i think the State wincon has to be removal of the dead. since it's not the TFoD's wincon, there has to be a faction that wins when the dead is gone.
expecting Varsoon to put in an 'everybody loses' scenario is possible but a little much, and even as i'm typing this is realize it would result in an awkward game situation as soon as a State member flips.

anyway.
Titus, everything is telling me dreal is town here. unless he's State with Xiao and came up with a convoluted redirect claim + hide the redirect, which makes little sense unless they thought it would be safer than a straight guilty on us.
either Xiao is lying for some other reason (i still think dreal is town) or he got ninja redirected.

regardless, we can win when the TFoD are all dead and i believe we have two more lynches to do it before we can't anymore.

i agree with 2113 but i think i said as much already.
i'm concerned with the possibility TFoD has three members, but that would mean lynching 3/4 of them in the first four days, unless we get lucky with protects. maybe my math is off, but that seems difficult. i'm still a little worried about it.
best move is to lynch Vax today, though.
~Chara

pedit: fuzzy, i don't see him flipping town. i think if he's anything though, he's state. mainly because of Vax.

[Almost Chara]

i'll be gone for most of the day. Almost has my reads, though.

Gork: i'm not convinced you aren't State that's just doing a good job of being protown in searching for TFoD, but there's nothing i can really point to in your play to say why i'm bothered. Almost is townreading you hard so i'm trusting him, and it's difficult to see you as State with any group except dreal, which i'm not entertaining.
i don't know. i want to work with you, though hopefully the game just ends with this.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

ninja just makes sense considering my ability existing but also possible scum is just lying to try and get me lynched

Here's what *I* think: Xiao id The State and he -similar to RR- suspects either of us is TFoD. Giving an outright guilty on us makes him the lynch target when a mislynch occurs. However, claiming he got a result on Fuzzy (again) gives him leeway to escape the lynch for yet another day tomorrow, assuming the game doesn't end already if their kill is successful tonight.

What makes no sense at all is that he gets a result precisely one the same person he did yesterday. This could mean he had to "guess" Fuzzy was Town and didn't want to take additional risk clearing someone else lest they are NOT The Dead, but that seems unlikely since you did get a investigation was triggered last night.

However, even a ninja redirection would not make sense redirecting him to Fuzzy precisely, regardless of what alignment the hypothetical redirector is.

Both TFoD & TS want to fins the other one, so why redirect him to the one and only player he did claim a result on? And if they suspected he was going to target one of them why not direct him to a MOD CONFIRMED Townie, i.e. Titus?

If the director is Town though, the again they'd be redirecting Xiao to anyone BUT Titus/Fuzzy (i.e. to the one they feel more suspicious of or more confident in them being NOT The Dead).

The result itself makes no sense even if we do assume redirection shenanigans.

Update: As I was typing the above it hit me that moste redirecting actions does not get announced, meaning most mods would give a "Your Target is X" result rather than "NAME is X". IF a redirection did occur (and I'm not saying it did, but IF it did) then the redirector thought it was the case and was trying to trick Xiao into giving a new result on Fuzzy w/o knowing it. If Xiao had given a guilty today the redirector would have claimed they redirected him to Fuzzy and that would make them both guilty. So, either Fuzzy is really The Dead OR Xiao & Fuzzy are the same faction (most probably The State) and when Ciao got a result of The State on us he deduced his result was tampered with since he knows we're not a member of his own faction.

@Drealz: Do you now realize why I prefer to keep my moon logic confined to the hydra PT? I mean, give me more time and I will probably come up with more possibilities, and then I'd look like I'm leading everyone astray. This is probably why I get scum read often when I'm Town. especially by those who have little or no previous experience with me.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

Our win con says we win when all of either faction is gone, with a deadline for each. Maybe they lose when we win. Who cares, what matters is that we win.

I totally understand the logic here, especially when playing for our second win con is equal to having lost 4 Townies so far and ni scum flips (i.e. we would be at a disadvantage). However, I thought to ask since we've been through similar situations before and various players have expressed they had a soft spot for the "Town aligned 3P faction" so to speak, and you were just that in Gistou. I even remember Mastina explicitly saying something along those sentiments in SU2, so it was better to ask.

OK, once again: We are NOT TFoD and our vote on Havo proves it (The same applied to everyone who voted Havo, actually). We are not The State either because we were made voteless on D1 by them (that's why I'm confident Gork is not The State either as of today), and we (more to it *I*) have been promoting the idea of playing for our 2nd win con from the word go. I'm only willing to go for the first one now that we already lynched TFoD, although -emotionally and ethically- it doesn't feel right, but I understand and have let the vote Chara put on Vax stay since I do think he is very likely TFoD too.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

Like, why are we even discussing the "unknown" win con of The State when we are obviously going for our "eliminate TFoD" win con now? Can we please get back on track to decide on the lynch that is most likely to hit on TFoD?

~A50

[Almost Chara]

I've been saying xiao is state for a while

and I've been pretty sure vax is FoD since RR told us vax was likely megaman/protoman

not sure what you want me to engage? and I thought you were addressing desperado there...

for me it's less that and more Desperado's idea of the scumteam, which i was mildly convinced of after checking ISOs. putting the two together has me fairly confident. Vax hasn't down anything to make me townread him which puts him as PoE scum even without that. Desp is also a good townread which helps.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

@Titus and A50: my concern is that A50 could have a defensive passive of some sort which prevented the investigation. That removes the choice between Xiao and drealmerz.

Not the case

~A50

[Almost Chara]

@Titus: Are you OK?? Seriously!

First: DESPERADO suggested The State may need to protect TFoD. You started arguing against that with Desp (which was fine) but you somehow managed to move the argument into your personal duel with dreal. dreal would have nothing against TS!Xiao voting TFoD!Vax to my recollection!!

P.S. Check it out yourself. You were responding to Desp in 2251 then in 2260 you're asking dreal why State!Xiao votes FoD!Vax "given the assumption that state lose if FoD lynched" when dreal never suggested that to begin with. (If he did and I missed it then I will stand corrected as soon as you point it out to me)

Second: Regardless if whether Xiao is TS or Town, the majority want a TFoD lynch today in a bid it will end the game instantaneously. Vax is most likely Havo's p by a good margin, so let's stop arguing about Xiao's alignment as most of do not think he is TFoD.

So, does your read/evaluation lead to Vax = TFoD or not? If not, why?

Which also brings me to..

@Yume: RR is saying it doesn't matter what TS do if we lynch TFoD today and they turn to be of only 2 members. This means we have already achieved our 1st win con (eliminating TFoD with at least 6 players alive), which means GAME OVER. Are you being distracted by the noise?

@RR: Are you willing to lynch Vax? Do you think it more likely that he will flip TFoD or have you changed your mind?

~A50

[Almost Chara]

@Titus and A50: my concern is that A50 could have a defensive passive of some sort which prevented the investigation. That removes the choice between Xiao and drealmerz.

Not the case

~A50

It is something that must be considered though,

Agreed. I was just telling RR that it's not the case, Whether they chose to believe it or not is another matter and I cannot provide concrete evidence to dispute the possibility.. unless we ask for another check on us or Vax somehow not getting lynched and make us hated (which again doesn't serve any purpose since you'd have to lynch us to prove it worked).

HOLD ON A SECOND! WE WERE TARGETED SUCCESSFULLY ON N0, weren't we???? So THERE!

~A50

[Almost Chara]

think it has to be 8v3v2

the 3 being 2state + reporter, the 2 being FoD ?? but it could be 3state + reporter making it 7 dead

I always thought 2 FoD vs 3 State because of the win con for us with each, but the idea of the potential info The State would gain through the PTs Furude's lynch gave then access to makes it possible to have been 2 vs 2. That would have been more likely though if The Reporter was given some ability to survive a bit longer so as to gather more info.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

either way you cut it, xiao is too powerful to be with the dead, still

Yup. Cop + Someone to confirm their action and learn if other actions, plus they're not FoD (dreal isn't at least) so must be State, who also submit a night action and have access to Furude's PTs?? That's a bit too much power on one side.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

after today it's meaningless? we have 10 players alive today. lynch + nightkill if not stopped brings us down to 8 players. lynching last FoD tomorrow still gets a win because we'd be at 7 living players with all FoD gone.

also i really don't think dreal is FoD. even if i

am

wrong on the townread i'm very confident in, if he's any scum he's State.
~Chara

pedit: the Havo push came from Desperado and Gork iirc. i agreed with it close to deadline as well and the lynch was able to go through over dreal.
dreal votes were Yume's scumread, Titus's scumread, and fuzzy sheeping conftown.

[Almost Chara]

No. Scum are scum.

I mean after today it's meaningless to lynch FOD scum.

my post was addressing this. it's not meaningless to lynch FoD tomorrow. we can win by removing them today or tomorrow.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

oh, you're right, i'm a moron.
it still works with 6 alive and not 7, but i'm annoyed i forgot that. it could easily be the difference between a win and a loss.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

what amazing reads are you pushing here that everyone should be amazed by? i certainly dont recall you being at the head of the charge on havo or even pushing for xiao yesterday

Havo was a last second lynch since no one could make of their minds. If I were around I would have argued against it (and furthered suspicion). Turns out we got lucky.

Xiao/Fuzzy/maybeRR In that order we cant lose.

you're reading Xiao/fuzzy/maybe RR as the State team, right? who do you think Havo's partner is?
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

Vax: oh, i didn't realize that's what you were saying there. so you're more confident in Xiao-State scum than us as FoD scum, so you want to lynch Xiao?

pedit: don't think the cop is made up, unless Xiao/dreal is part of the State. i suppose i can't discount that dreal has skill as scum enough for that to be the case, but i don't see the scum utility in a power like dreal's unless it's to see the powers of TFoD. and he just seems really town. i don't really feel like flavour-speccing it. i guess i'll go look at Gork's thing.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

gork, I was pretty sure havo was FoD and I didn't really want to lynch FoD on D2, like I said, that's why I was "ehhh" at EoD about it

it was clear she was trying to keep me around, and vax too, and with the flip, yah, pretty clear they thought I'd be an ally going forth against the state

going back to this. why didn't you want to lynch FoD in general on day 2, and how were you sure Havo was FoD? i was under the impression you were waffling on whether Havo was even scum and that's why you were hesitant.
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

Gork: you think there's three? and two State? i guess it's really difficult to know unless the setup is all laid out. i have no doubt it's balanced but maybe the win conditions are just a smokescreen for odd numbers mitigated by powerful scum abilities.
assuming usual circumstances we have four lynches to eliminate three FoD members. do you think it's meant to be a difficult bonus win condition, or that the State would help by trying to kill FoD?
~Chara

[Almost Chara]

I think we have reasonable cause to believe state did not perform the N1 kill.

@AC: the ability removing your ability to vote could easily not be the same type of ability as the ones a passive you might have affect. It is a decent bit of weak evidence, but it is weak.

I'm not in full comprehension of the `st part of this quote (the bolded). Perhaps you could elaborate why it's the case? Thank you.

As for the second bit, I'm not sure I fully understand either. Are you saying we may have a passive that only stops us from being investigated but allows other actions on us? I'm not even experienced enough in modding to tell if that would be a good idea from a mod's PoV. I would use the much simpler options (Ascetic/Commuter/Hider) if I was designing a game, but this is a Varsoon game and anything goes I guess, and -again- I have no hard evidence to prove this isn't the case, so I', just telling you it isn't and you may or may not take my word for it.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

Just a reminder that we have less than 9 hours left in the day.

Likely State or Town
RR
Almost Chara
GorK
Drealm

Again, you're not making any sense. What's the point for The State to make one of their own voteless? What's the point of making one of their own Hated? Which reminds me: Desp is not mentioned in your read list. Any particular reason? Don't tell me you're confident he's Town, since you did include Titus in the list.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

I believe then to be:

Vaxkiller (5): Desperado, Almost Chara, Xiao Long, Gorkington, Reasonably Rational,
Xiao Long (2): Vaxkiller, drealmerz7,
drealmerz7 (1): Titus,

Not Voting (2): TheFuzzylogic99, Yume,

Might be worth another check though

~A50

[Almost Chara]

Yume didn't vote Xiao. She made him her neighbourhood target for tonight.

~A50

[Almost Chara]

i can't imagine it was! no one was listening to you. but you were really fun to play with, Xiao! i'd like to be in a game with you again.

i like everyone in this table, too. despite the problems with this particular arrangement.

that's one win against the less-than-stellar record of our hydra! and Almost essentially soloed our scum victory because i left.
~Chara