NY214: Project Pinecone (Game over! Town wins!)

[Taly]

[Taly]

I hardly ever do replace ins but

Pine

is A+ <3

Lots of familiar faces as well.

I'll read through the thread in depth and give an assessment tomorrow, it's late for me now.

Double-checked my Role PM, based off a quick ISO skim,

Dave

played consistent to what I know town-him to be which makes me feel better about meta-ing him accurately.

Hi taly, who is your favorite power ranger and why?

I don't know which version I grew up watching so I'm going to default to whichever is purple because they have good fucking taste

*thumbs up*

Do you have any thoughts you want to share at the moment?

[Taly]

OK thoughts on quotes to first 9 pages

I'll date a current 9-page-in readslist after this post and then continue reading a little more later today.

Aw sweet I rolled scum! That's one down guys, climb on board!

VOTE: Elbirn

Town. This is towny.

Self-votes/scumclaims are excusable in RVS.

Elbirn

is both ballsy and would be going against his wincon with this post. I feel like scum would

love

to muddy the waters over this post versus taking the intent and motive behind this post and thinking about it.

If

Elbirn

is scum, how does this help him? As town,

Elbirn

is gauging for reactions.

Are we still in RVS?

We are? Great.
VOTE: worst

This is never a good thing for someone to ask on Page 3.

Are we still in RVS?
We are? Great.
VOTE: worst

I've got some really good news

What's the good news?

I'm not mafia this time

Believable

VOTE: No Lynch

Why?...

Inferno wins first notable goodpost award (87)

VOTE: davesz

OK you're towny here. Your previous post reads like a reaction test at the moment, even though your vote's on town.

OMGUS
VOTE: Elbirn

This whole drive on my thoughts feels very forced.
Will explain myself further, but I’m on mobile right now.

...I hate the acronym OMGUS so much but both town and scum love to use it.

What do you think about

Elbirn

now?

imo Elbirn is town and just acting dumb

Raskolnikov is scum though

VOTE: Raskolnikov

also if I'm right about Raskolnikov being scum, then inferno is town. I doubt scum buddies would immediately have an interaction like that

Ehhhh....

I agree

Elbirn

is town.

I don't know what makes you conclude to

Rask

being scum that much here.

Also what the fuck is LAMIST

It's a completely anti-town shitty buzzword that replaces actual sentiments and reasons behind thoughts, and perpetuates the notion that trying to make others believe you're towny is an inherently scum-thing to do.

It's also a perfect utility for someone to use when they want to discredit, misrep, or emphasize their convoluted reasons behind a poorly-thought-out push.

It wouldn't be such a horrible acronym if it wasn't overused so much, because scum likes to degrade people's thinking with this buzzword and I've seen them do it a lot.

It's my least favorite buzzword, and I've played games on here in 2015.

The actual

LAMIST

posts here are from Profii.

WTF

DAVE

? WE GETTIN' SCUMREAD FOR THIS.

Dw <3 I'm confbiased so I know this is a town mistake.

"Look at me I'm so town"

I was just as confused when I first saw it.

Oh I can already tell this is my least favorite new buzzword

Elbirn

is obvtown to me. I really want to know why people didn't think this earlier, and if they don't now, I want an explanation.

I think inferno flails by now if they're scum

...so...
why aren't you voting him?

A very stock answer/quote thrown in an attempt to look townie.
Such a basic thing to ask "then why aren't you voting?"
But it reveals, in fact, that dramonic didn't really read what was said, and went for the appearances instead.
VOTE: Dramonic

I like this post. I don't think

dramonic

thought about

Flub's

response here, but I don't really have a read on these 3 yet.

VOTE: Skygazer

I feel like the description of raskol's NL vote as "LAMIST" is probably the scummiest thing in the thread so far.

Ausuka

being towny.

But wait

Ausuka

, where's the wallposts and consistent engagement?

I've played with 9/16 players of this game before.
I have solid grasp of maybe three of those, and you are one of them.

Have you played with me before?

It's not the no lynch vote itself for me, it's the apparent lack of follow up to it.

I don't think a follow-up was necessary on

Rask's

NL entrance. Or at least, his inaccurate vote on this slot was plenty enough.

VOTE: No Lynch

Well this is worse than giving us yourself as scum, Elbirn. Wanna wagon your scum buddy here?

Why is this scummy to you?

The following post needs to be read in context of “RVS I suppose”

The self vote was bad - if you are scum, voting yourself is anti win con, if you are town, then we all have wifom over the slot because it could be a random gambit/reaction test but it certainly doesn’t help scum hunt

Then we had he no vote. Obviously excluding vigs, we can only kill scum via lynch so again, anti win con play

Admittedly - it moved us out of RVS

I think I’ll be looking at this Rask wagon in a bit for a serious vote, whilst it’s bad play, I’m not sure I’m calling it scummy. As much as I said to Elbirn lynch your scum buddy, I was more interested to see how he felt about the apparent counter reaction test, I’m assuming he Elbirn is town for trying that play (even though i don’t like it)

Egh... I get the sentiment behind the WIFOM, but I don't know why you're thinking

Elbirn

is scum and

Rask

being connected? If I read this correctly?

I know but I dunno how to fix it.

OK, this feels a bit genuine, but I'm going to wait a little before I make a stance.

Okay, so I’m summing up three pages worth of thoughts on mobile, so bear with

Post #118: @HWS the way I see it is that based on Elbirn’s reactions her that as scum it would be an attempt to pick a 1v1 with someone and get a bunch of early town cred through that. I’ve seen plenty of games where getting into a 1v1 and bearing down on it can cause people to take it as TvT.
Post #124 is really good and Dave gets townpoints for that.
Post #130: I agree with this, especially since that by this point my use of LAMIST has been twisted from it’s original purpose. I never called the votes themselves LAMIST. (See my note on #118.) The fact that my idea is being indirectly misinterpreted pings me highly.
Post #144 makes no sense to me. How is not posting LAMIST again?
Post #145: I’m really starting to think that Profii is missing the subtleties of this RVS.

Other notes that are not necessarily tied to any posts:
Gustavo’s lack of contribution is staring to irritate me. Seems scummy.
Everyone keeps asking where Flubbernugget thinks I flailed. I haven’t flailed yet, and isn’t that kind of his point? Based on the wording, Flubbernugget is implying that I’m not scum, not that I am scum.
I don’t like how much TW is moving around without real reasons, but maybe that’s just me.

-

I don't think

Elbirn

was trying to 1v1 as much as he was getting people to interact with him. It worked.

-

You're right about

Dave

being town here, so I'm going to continue.

-

If you use

LAMIST

at all to describe your thoughts, then you should expect to be misinterpreted.

-

I like this question.

Inferno

gives me both town and iffy-vibes, overall.

For

some

definition of not flailing.
76-80-81-88 is the least organic progression I've seen in a long time.

76 - 80 and 81 - 88

Yeah, I read through this thinking

"what is your read here again"

? I didn't quote it because I overlooked it... mostly because I couldn't get a conclusion here.

For

some

definition of not flailing.
<a href="tel:76-80-81-88" style="color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">76-80-81-88</a> is the least organic progression I've seen in a long time.

I’m offended
I’m sorry my train of though is too special for people who I have never played with before to understand

This is flippant.

Elbrin,

LAMIST is the cringiest acronym right before IANAL, but it's usually used more to describe what used to be called posturing than shading towntells.

I must go back to the source of these accusations and investigate

Buzzwords should all die.

Did you gain anything from this apparent investigation?

If this train of thought leads to your vote on

Dave

, then try again. I'm helping you here.

AbN is Assumption Before Narrative. Basically it means that Gustavo was calling Profii’s play scummy and then coming up with reasons for it to actually be scummy.

Do it, brass.

...I swear, if there's another buzzword used here...

Almost 9 pages already before 24 hours are up? Do you people not understand what a chill game means?

Anyway time to move my lulz playful theworst vote to scum now that we have actual scum posting.

VOTE: Flubber

I’m disappointed none of the rest of you saw the scumminess in 180. Rask coasting as scum in the first 24 hours the game is open? And hedging on Rask ( he’s not scum for this but could be scum for this other thing ) at the same time?

On other issues ..

Theworst I’m sure will make his alignment clear to me by Day 2. He was a pretty easy read as nonTown last game. Talk of policy lynching is pretty bad in regards to him.

Neither Elb or Rask are scummy for the lulz openings but hardly obvTown either.

@Rask

- why did you try to suggest my observation about Inferno was a criticism when it was an attempt to see if others would vouch for what looked like a deliberate play style and see who responded?

Ugh... Do you have any townreads here? Do you have any townreads now? Because when I read this post, I couldn't figure it out but you're not making a lot of clarity on the people you are mentioning here.

I think 4 scum, so dramonic, Flubbernugget, Gustavo, and HeWhoSwims.

If I am right, please confirm in the thread immediately.

Explain the thought here? At this point in the thread?

Has this evolved or changed?

Enough time has passed that I can't be sure if it's a true memory, but I think I've incorrectly scumread Dramonic before for posting like this.

AbN is Assumption Before Narrative. Basically it means that Gustavo was calling Profii’s play scummy and then coming up with reasons for it to actually be scummy.

Do it, brass.

Have you played mafia before?

Well this is incredibly evasive. I agree with Chickadee on 186. This is pretty flaily scum.
I’m just gonna shoot you so I can go on to hunt your buddies.

Dayvig: Gustavo

I don't like that you didn't ask a question here to confirm whether your thought was correct. I've never heard of AbN used in a mafia game before.

Plus, the dayvig, even as joke, doesn't make sense here. It just sounds like you're not trying to absolve or understand suspicion on someone.

I’m done
VOTE: Gustavo

There’s not even any defense coming from him. He’s just calling me a liar and being evasive.

I’m not being invasive and I’ve called you a liar cause as I’ve shown you have lied multiple times.

I don’t have to defend myself from lies.

Where exactly have you shown anything? And asking me if I’ve ever played Mafia before in response to me explaining my point is being evasive: You’re avoiding engaging with me because you don’t like what I’m saying.
Stop being toxic and calling names, SCUM. We don’t want any of that here.

...This has led to nowhere...

[Taly]

Reads by Page-9

Green is town. The darker the townier.

Orange

/

Yellow

is null, questioning, or uncertain. It doesn't mean

"I don't care" or "I'm not going to look"

- People like to confuse this.

Black

is no opinion atm.

Red is town. The darker the scummier.

1. Elbirn

2. MagnaofIllusion

3. Ausuka

4. brassherald

5. the worst

6. dramonic

7. HitAlt

8. Skygazer

9. Inferno390

10. Chickadee

((I bumped her because she's correct about Me/Dave-town.))

11. xyzzy

12. HeWhoSwims
13. Flubbernugget

14. Raskolnikov

15. davesaz/Taly

16. Andrius Gustavo

17. Profii

My reads are going to be more updated quicker as people actually engage with me.

[Taly]

Taly wins this page with EVA GREEN <3

She's great

Love her acting and she was amazing as

Vanessa Ives

in

Penny Dreadful

[Taly]

Also what the fuck is LAMIST

It's a completely anti-town shitty buzzword that replaces actual sentiments and reasons behind thoughts, and perpetuates the notion that trying to make others believe you're towny is an inherently scum-thing to do.

It's also a perfect utility for someone to use when they want to discredit, misrep, or emphasize their convoluted reasons behind a poorly-thought-out push.

It wouldn't be such a horrible acronym if it wasn't overused so much, because scum likes to degrade people's thinking with this buzzword and I've seen them do it a lot.

It's my least favorite buzzword, and I've played games on here in 2015.

[Taly]

im confident in my alignment, plus i didnt know i was repping into a wagoned slot

i wanted people to mention that i referenced my alignment a lot

and the fact that you guys acknowlege bumping a town on someone because they townread you is not good, makes me feel more comfortable with my townreads on you

which was what i was looking for, so ty

[Taly]

It's only until recently where I've played games that had town using buzzwords, especially one as bad as LAMIST

And a lot of my mislynches - mostly prior to my 2 year absence - involved cases ((usually scum)) that used buzzwords to simplify and doubtcast me

In either case, upon my return to mafia, I still usually see scum more often using buzzwords than town, and town who use buzzwords are usually wrong or become unhelpful in my experience

[Taly]

Not all buzzwords are bad, I just think most are abused, overused, or not even conceptually good/pro-town buzzwords in the first place

[Taly]

OMGUS is another example of a buzzword that doesn't provide valid reasoning or insight onto something

It

is

my bias. But it's provided by experience.

[Taly]

@Elbirn

I didn't say I had a meta read on

Dave

- I didn't read any part of this thread prior to replacing in if that's what you're meaning, I'm saying,

Dave

plays to what I feel like town-him is, and that makes me feel better about meta-reading him or accurately reading him in the future.

And what team-solve are you talking about? I'm stating my reads and thoughts as I read.

Also, I don't pocket others. I jump into other people's pockets to further my perception and judgment of the game.

I'm a little annoyed at the moment, nobody's really approached me with their thoughts of the gamestate, more or less just judge my entrance and not my walls/reads.

No wonder most of the playerlist is divided, it's been

27 pages

and that

only

5 people are united on a vote

{Rask, Hit, TW, Brass, Ausuka,} (Sky wagon)

and even they are being handled with a lack of confidence.

So I bang that jar open, and find certain players by the names of

the worst, brassherald, Ausuka

.
If Sky flips town, I'd eat my hat if there's no scum in this trio.

This isn't something you usually say about the wagon you're on, when you're voting someone you're confident is scum.

Why are you entertaining

Sky

being town atm? If you're looking at this reality, and further saying it's a stretch possibility, why aren't you looking more in depth at

tw, brass, ausuka

?

This just reads like you're trying to absolve yourself of possibly being wrong.

[Taly]

What is the difference between 22 and 73 to you?

22 was presumably RVS and I figured that the self-vote was solely to get attention brought onto him.

73 falls into the same category of pushing for attention and to strike discussion, so I felt this was also a post more likely to come from town.

"Look at me I'm so town"

I was just as confused when I first saw it.

Oh I can already tell this is my least favorite new buzzword

Elbirn

is obvtown to me. I really want to know why people didn't think this earlier, and if they don't now, I want an explanation.

Why does Elbirn sharing your thoughts on how useful an acronym is make him town?

You townreading Chickadee because she townreads your slot is also baffling to me.

Because it's a helpful mentality to not let buzzwords and general mentalities of how something is, influence and overwrite game discussion or thoughts.

I didn't read into too much depth into it, but I liked the posting, and that influenced my read.

And no, the townread on

Chickadee

isn't solely because she townreads my slot, and I already stated that I wasn't as comfortable about my read on her as I made it in the readslist, I just wanted a reaction that could've helped solidify my read.

~

My reads right now are a bit fickle, I'm still absorbing info. while trying to catch-up and gauging the gamestate as it is.

I feel awkward that people are paying more attention to my townreads than my null, unsure, or scumreads.

...My next post will just be me catching up to page 18...

[Taly]

... I'll do a full catch-up before I post then.

[Taly]

taly if I have to guess is scumread via the similar reason people actually didnt like him in the popularity contest where people thought his super happy tone was insincere and he was a fake person

I mentally wiped almost all my reads earlier because of how much I hated the interactions, responses I got, and posts on the previous page.

This gamestate's corrosive for town. I'm going to catch-up in a few hours. I'm not replying to anything before then.

[Taly]

But I do love that

Hit

didn't even notice my existence but w/e

[Taly]

But I do love that

Hit

didn't even notice my existence but w/e

((Just a disclaimer given the atmosphere on a few pages: I do not make personal posts, ever, in Mafia - so even if I sound sassy or bitchy - this is me in Mafia. It's my playstyle... usually when I dislike a game narrative.))

[Taly]

Actually, I read through the whole game, am caught up now.

LORDE

, GIVE ME TACT.

POSSESSED EVA GREEN,

YOU HELP ME TOO.

[Taly]

I said it in the sign ups, and I'll say it again here, I'm out chilling out so many people right now.

I'm chill as a cucumber.

Gustavo is no chill.

Inferno, no chill.

Me, Cooler than being cool. (I'm ice cold) Alright, alright, alright, alright... and so on.

Don't like this post. Useless.

VOTE: Flubbernugget

Wouldn't surprise me at all if {profii, inferno, gustavo} is all-town. Last two have tunnely playstyles but yeah that's NAI. Still suspect skygazer but this is good too.

Also brassherald is town.

And how is

brass

town again?

Why are you so sure

Gustavo/Inferno/profii

? At this point, you haven't really said anything about the

Inferno/Gustavo

1v1, even though it was escalating.

Also, I think that the definition of being evasive is something like “avoiding commitment by responding indirectly.” And responding to everything I say by saying I’m a liar is a a pretty good way of doing that, wouldn’t you agree?

I wasn’t avoiding commitment to anything though and I feel like if I see somebody lying, it’s more important to call that out immediately. You probably shouldn’t have lied. I get you don’t think you lied, but unfortunately you did.

It’s better not to make assumptions and posting them as fact.

And this, everyone, is the post that makes me believe the push on

Gustavo

isn't justified - or at least based on scum-indicative reasons.

I don't see the point in this entire interaction, tbh.

ausuka town!

Chickadee

??? !

I will always defend myself. Don’t say anything negative about me and I won’t have to respond.

We could end this day with s profli lynch. His buddies will kill me and everyone is happy.

This sounds lots like "Don't scumread me and everything will be fine."

You realize that, right?

Yeah, I completely disagree with this assessment on

Gustavo

and I dislike how

brass

handled this.

-

Gustavo

was stating that the reasons on him weren't really based on pure, constructive game reasons - or ones that he could do little but dismiss. I feel like he was genuine here.

-

Gustavo

took a step further and said that he wasn't going to entertain people having a negative response since it likely wouldn't lead to a help in the game.

-

Brass

misconstrues this as "don't scumread me", even though that's bordering a misrep, it's a very superficial means of looking at his post and it's oriented in making

Gustavo

seem undignified in his thoughts.

Plus, why is it bad for someone to defend themselves?

Why would town want to submit to their lynch? Why would scum want to submit their lynch?

I'm greatly suspicious of why nobody has brought up this possibility yet, and hasn't injected their own, authentic opinion on the 1v1. I just feel like, not just with this, there's so much parroting going on in the thread and it's not oriented in COHESIVE gameplay.

That makes sense to me though w/profii? nolynching d1 definitely doesn't help the town. Like, I agree Rask's actions weren't scummy but I feel profii's actions weren't either.

This is basically my point
I feel like I don’t really understand where Gus is coming from so I’m happy to just leave it and draw a line under it but if Gus wants to explain more I’m happy to listen

Yeah, I'm not a fan of this post.

Why don't you continue to try and understand? I don't like the "don't like it, but bye" mentality here... especially since your vote's still on him. You're just parking your vote without doing anything else.

530 is the only reason I'm not voting you atm - because you actually did something with your vote since 13

But I do want to know why you feel

Flubb

is scum. Or elaborate on what you've stated on him?

~~~

I know a lot of people in this game, and have played with them before, at least several times.

Here's my thoughts on them:

~

I can see

Ausuka

being town here... I'm a little weary of her game stances, but by meta, she seems consistent with the tone, walls, and thought process. But I need to see more before I solidify this read.

((2-3 games of experience.))

~

I don't know how to interpret

the worst

atm, blegh... He's definitely not as forward, thoughtful, or stream-of-consciousness as what I'm used to here.

((2+ games of experience.))

~

I retract my townread from

Brass

, I can't think of a post I like from him. Although, I have disliked his play when he's town before... so I'm weary of that.

((2-3 games of experience.))

~

Haven't seen enough to figure

Profii

out, some things ping, some things make me feel he's town... He's a very adaptable player, so he's caught my eye.

((1 game of experience... but we were both alive for awhile in this completed game, and he was scum, and I was town.))

Conclusion: I have a lot of

"I don't like"

comments because there's a lot of content worthy of shunning.

[Taly]

That’s very naive thinking.

But ok. That’s true but we also don’t remove town from the game.

There are more day 1 mislynches than scum lynches.

I don't agree with this... but is it really scum?

I have issues with his stances so far. Self voting and no lynch voting aren’t playing against a win condition regardless of alignment. I feel like he should know better since he’s not a newbie.

He does need to make less wordy posts though. That’s why they come off as iioa

I don’t really understand where you’re coming from by saying no lynching is anti-wincon. That’s not what I’m scum reading you for though. Maybe that’s the issue? I was scum reading you when I voted you. Idk how to put it but your early posts all seem so fake to me. Like you are trying to appear town and it doesn’t come off as genuine. The whole no lynch thing was definitely some more fuel to my fire and maybe that’s why people are so hung up on that. Like I said earlier it looked like you were just throwing more dirt on rask who was already doing a good job making himself look bad and your conclusions to me don’t make sense logically. I’ve never seen anyone say no lynching is playing against their win condition. It’s not like he was going to actually gain momentum for it. Some people I’ve seen argue no lynching helps town and while I don’t agree I understand their logic. I don’t understand yours. I don’t see it coming from town unless they are a newbie which you aren’t. It’s hands down the best information available to us. Definitely better than the reasons others have given (magna for example)

Someone read these and let me know if they find any discrepancies. Thanks.

Ewwww.... Are you actively looking for a problem in his posts?

I think you're being tunnely-town, here.

Read up to page 11.

All this "liar"talk gives me a feeling that Gustavo is being a pedant wrt inferno. I will have to confirm via iso eventually

The case on me is weak sauce. Something about coasting being scummy but not willing to call scum over it. As a rule of thumb, voting someone over one tell is a bad idea

Your posting is weaksauce.

I don't even know your reads by this point of the thread because they're either not memorable/well-pushed or very fluid, perhaps both.

And what does

"wrt"

mean? If this implies any suspicion on

Gustavo

, you're going to warrant the side-eye from me. ;P

I have played against and read games where TW was scum and his play has read the same way D1 as it does now. It may be to early to tell IMO.

May not be too early. It doesn't feel like he's doing anything. Have you ISOed him?

I would like to point this out.

I have issues with his stances so far. Self voting and no lynch voting aren’t playing against a win condition regardless of alignment. I feel like he should know better since he’s not a newbie.

He does need to make less wordy posts though. That’s why they come off as iioa

This post clearly contradicts what Gustavo is claiming his read is based off of right now.
Which is why I asked that question earlier.

...but is it really scum tho?

Omg omg omg omg omg
AAAAAAAANDYYYYYYYYYY ♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡

I dont know how any of you can question the alignment of the Gus slot. It's a prime example of a specific kind of player that makes really clear slips as scum. Like scum has to convince themselves of their own argument before they can convince the town,

and I don't think for a second that Gus thought he could be wrong. That doesn't come from a scum mind.

Which is good cuz it means we can conftown the single most wonderful person ever ♡

Currently not at home, but ill prolly vote flubs once I get back and reread. His most recent posts have been less than stellar.

!!!!!

Finally! SOMEONE IN THIS THREAD I AGREE WITH.

The bolded is a perfect verbalization of my thoughts on

Gustavo

, and I feel better about

dramonic

a lot right now.

Re 184, I'm not going to say I have a great explanation, but dramonic's posts just feel like scum posting. It's pure gut, and no real evidence, yeah, but, like everything feels like he's too calculated, I guess would be the right phrase, to be town.

I also don't think 482 is a town post, but, again, I can't quite put my finger on why.

My dramonic read is purely instinct, and I cannot read his posts and tell my stupid instinct with my brain that it's being stupid.

You're casting suspicion on someone and actively admitting it has no legitimate reason.



You're devaluing your own read as you being dumb, but if you actually felt strongly on

dramonic's

posts, why are you saying that?



This post is nothing less than transparent suspicion, and it's painfully obvious.



This post is a good embodiment of the rest of your ISO.



I'm not voting just yet, but I'm very tempted to.

~~~

~

Gustavo/Inferno

was so painful to watch... ugh. I don't think I can lynch

Andrius

at all in this game, tbh.

~

Feeling good about

dramonic

, he's got good sense where this thread/playerlist seems to be severely deprived from.

~

Brass

is getting worse by the page to me. There's other people I could vote, but I want to push this.

Conclusion: There's a few powerlynch-worthy people right now, and that's scary.

[Taly]

Ugh... at this point, I'm going to need some apple juice.

haven't read into the scumteam call-out and may not tonight but can definitely get in on this Sky wagon.

VOTE: SkyGazer

...what? Did I miss something?

VOTE: SkyGazer

As promised.

...ewww.

I just did another read through on Sky and there is something definitely scummy about her posts. I can get behind this wagon.
But someone else I’ve been stuck on is Elbirn. I keep rereading his ISO and thee is something really odd about his posting. I can’t figure out what though.
VOTE: Skygazer

Inferno

b stronger town plz.

I don't think it's true that my ISO is naked, I have definitely given content.

Don't think I stated this explicitly but my issue with Flubber was the thing MOI pointed out: the point on Rask being scum coasting made no sense that early.

VOTE: Skygazer is a good wagon.

Why

Sky

and not

Flubb

then?

Trying not to dominate discussions again

When were you dominating discussions?

so I'll probably take a backseat for a few hours at least after this, but my main issue with the iso for Skygazer is that there are 18 posts, one of which is substance light, the rest do nothing.

We are far enough in that a lack of content while still posting every few hours, to me, is scummy. I get the feeling that Sky is posting to be like "Well, I'm not lurking" and saying just enough to remember he is making posts, but not actually saying anything in the posts to deliberately avoid being a scum read. Once you get to 18 posts, I feel like there should be some posts that moves the game forward, unless you are Not_Mafia, but that's neither here nor there.

So, Sky is a good wagon.

Raskol

,

MoI

,

HeWhoSwims

,

xyzzy

have had less posts than her. Some with more content, yes, but less post frequency. There's also been some people with mild content.

And it's only been 7 days....

I don't see the weight in this argument?

Scum reads (mostly WIP towards the top)

Ausuka - as stated before, sketchiest of my sketch wagon

lol no. You don't even sound like you believe this scumread. You don't say anything about it.

Elbrin - has exactly one post that isn't fluff or related to the early flame war

lol don't agree. and what was this

"one non-fluff"

post?

Davesaz - I totally get being more observant than talkative, but every time he posts, nothing really changes. There's lots of questions in his iso, but a lot of it boils down to minute clarifications that don't really read into motivations. A lot of his commentary is "I agree with this point or that point" but it's again looking through the forest ignorant of the trees.

I also really don't like my recent interaction with him. Dave is a really analytical guy. He can very much piece things together through solid logic. However, the only way to do that is with a solid foundation. That starts D1 with a sample of good votes and detailed reasoning. The closest he's done to that so far is give my concern for the state of the game lip service. Dave concludes that my concern is valid with nothing more than a gripe that time is finite. Totally respectable, but if that's the case, then the town thing to do is at least start a discussion on how to push the game's voting habits towards in a more effective direction.

VOTE: davesaz

Have you played with

dave

before? Because if you told me that you did without linking, I wouldn't believe you.

Also, profii, of everyone that "wagoned" rask,why did you vote me?

missed this earlier sorry

I will be amazed if we aren't finding a scum in {The worst / flubber / xyzzy / sky } so i've been monitoring you lot more than any other group of players tbh.

i dont think it's tw so ive ruled him out.

Sky has pressure and in the spirit of being chill, I'm waiting for her to overcome the IRL things making her lurk. but idk, maybe I'm being mod manipulated into not death tunnelling there.

i dont like your posturing post that got mentioned, i know it was really early but it bugged me a lot. You then also got into Gus and Ausuka - i think gus doesn't like day 1 at all, so he's just nai for day1 tbh. I also think Ausuka will become easily sortable later in the game, idk how well you know her scum game? But seemed a weird read. My gut is just telling me you are using highly conflicting logic to me

i dont like xyzzys post in 180 either. It has random reads mixed with non-relevant content, almost sent to confuse or make it look like there is more content than there really is.


I guess the timing was wrong because that sky wagon sucked all the pressure off you so my vote alone isnt really going to pressure anything out of you. I could vote sky but I've asked what her scum reads are and I'm chilling so I'm being less forthright with my vote but i also wanted to move off RVS on to something more real

Notably, you agreed with my 309 post - who would you say is the scum involved in rask wagoning
'?

I think

xyzzy

is most likely town out of your pool. Not sure what to think on the

Sky

wagon.

Other than that, this post makes me feel better about

profii

, I can see the worry with

the worst

and

flubbernugget

So I’m still slotting Flubber as potential scum. Still unsure that his explanation that he used a poor language choice in regards to the whole Rask “coasting” post or that it was potentially scummy enough to bring up as a possibility but not worth voting early on. I find generally that Town are less concerned with how their votes are perceived and scum generally work harder at justifying their votes (or lack thereof). Additionally 445 and 446 feel like a side-step … suddenly its not that Ausuka has no other reads but “she is the worst”. In a set of three people someone will always have the lowest amount of reads. The question is whether Ausuka was pursuing other reads at all. My impression – she was and is. And even the suggestion that “PT Slipping” is a thing to scumread someone for is suspect given I know Flubber has played in games and has to know that Mafia PTs are standard.

But time to vote my darkhorse read now that he’s finally answered the questions I had outstanding for him …

VOTE: Davesaz

I’ve been suspicious of him since 124 which is a bunch of words that are mostly empty fence sitting (I find this odd but from Player X it is normal) with a profii scum reads evidenced but no accompanying vote. In general his posting is vague and non-committal. 459 I think illustrates that. And his self-meta explanation is no excuse for not being willing to give opinions (even early ones … the game has to get going with something) while being quick to criticize others for a perceived lack of opinion. Overall his ISO is mostly waffling back and forth on most issues with a few small Town or scum reads. I don’t see someone looking to find scum. Thus my vote.

Ehhhh... this and

Dramonic's

vote are the ones I can understand.

Dave+SkyGazer+chick.

Please don't N1 kill me so that I can see you all hang.
VOTE: SkyGazer first?

So, is your entire posting this game going to be throwing scum possibilities and narratives around while you vote someone and cast suspicion on another person?

Your reasonings do not align with your votes, oh wait, what reasoning?

Oh yeah, Dramonic still fits as a fourth.

Do we even have 4 scum??

Your posts are disingenuous.

I can't tell if you're town being bullheaded or scum throwing enough shade to where town can't see the truth.

You could be hiding your thoughts for self-preservation, I guess??? I don't like what I'm seeing, especially in conjunction with your posts on

Pagd 27

.

Can you just talk to me?

~~~

~

I had a slight moment where I was like

"could I be wrong on

Brass

"?

It happened when I was unprepared, so I want to push him, but I don't think he's most worth my vote right now.

~

Flubb

does not feel natural.

~

Hit

does not feel natural, but I've seen town play similar to he has.

Conclusion: Scum is either very strong, or town is very weak. No middle ground. I feel like there's been much more town-wagons and town-suspected in this game than anything else.

I can easily and greatly empathize with Dave and Gustavo's frustration with this game.

[Taly]

Universal Readslist Upon Catch-Up

Town
Ausuka, dramonic, Andrius, Inferno, xyzzy, MoI, Elbirn (volatile), Raskol, profii

???
HeWhoSwims, Chickadee, Sky, the worst

Scum
brassherald (volatile), HitAlt, Flubbernugget

This readslist in general is volatile, but

Elbirn/Brass

are most in this category - volatile means their read can change quickly, since I'm processing a lot of info. at once.

It's also not in order of strength in a read. So just because

Ausuka, brass, HeWhoSwims

are at the top in their order, doesn't mean they're the highest OR lowest in strength.

But this is where I'm at after the initial catch-up.

I'd much appreciate people asking about my reads rather than pushing them at the moment. There's too much adversity in the thread, and based on

Page 27

, I feel like new perspective's are perceived as threats in this game.

Which is not conducive to a town-gamesolve in terms of gamestate or atmosphere.

[Taly]

VOTE: Flubbernugget

I see nothing in their posts that tell me they're town; I'll ISO them a bit more in depth later... and I'm a bit burnt-out.

~~~

HOW DID I DO FOR TACT

LORDE

?

EVA GREEN?

E-E-Eva?

Just walk it off,

Eva

!

[Taly]

reckon you could vaguely tier your townreads for me? or is that like, a townbloc?

No townreads are strong enough for a townbloc, yet.

But I really do like

dramonic's

posting in retrospect, and

Ausuka

feels town-her.

I also feel

Inferno

is towny, even though I don't agree with them that much in this game. I guess I'm finally developing the ability to tone-read a little?

These would probably be the stronger townreads at the moment.

[Taly]

Andrius

is strong townread too, but that's a lot in his predecessor so I'm not solid there yet.

I like

xyzzy

,

MoI

posts but I need to look a bit deeper soon.

The volatility in

Elbirn

is because I didn't like his posts in page 27.

I automatically have frustration with anyone who writes my posts off as

"nonsensical babble"

. But I still hold my original impression as town.

Raskol

and

profii

are mid-town, I'd say, for different reasons though.

[Taly]

Lorde

,

Eva

, and

Pinecone

are townblocc'ed tho.

[Taly]

Yeah I'll reread

the case for brass but I'd let him live over Taly here

Taly would you agree there isn't that much... Important content from Stargazer

Love that the consistent reaction to me catching up and posting in this game goes like:

Side note, not sure how I'm feeling about your posting so far.

Side note, not sure how I'm feeling about your posting so far. I feel like you've taken every chance to mention that you're town. And bumping someone because they town read you is baaaad.

Hard agree.

Side note, not sure how I'm feeling about your posting so far. I feel like you've taken every chance to mention that you're town. And bumping someone because they town read you is baaaad.

Agree with this.

Am I literally insane for thinking that Taly is scum for babbling about having a meta read on his own predecessor Dave?

but i don't think he's scum with Dave/Taly slot so here we are, trapped in the amber of this moment.

At any rate his nonsensical babble about having a team-solve and trying to push that through is, if not scummy, certainly bad play

I like dave's posting just before he replaced out but there are a few things that bother me about Taly?

Granted, Taly's… Talyness could just be them being who they are but man there's a few key problems with what happened here and that worries me.

Am I literally insane for thinking that Taly is scum for babbling about having a meta read on his own predecessor Dave? One of the oldest scum tells in the book, albeit I've forgotten the name of it, but yeah no one? Anyone? Bueller?

You are not alone.

If I'm mislynched, I'm not going to feel bad.

I don't think I've ever had suspicion so thoroughly parroted onto me.

I'm remembering why I don't replace in much.

Taly would you agree there isn't that much... Important content from Stargazer

But no, to answer your question - I don't see a lot of important content from

Star

I don't feel comfortable with the wagon right now, and honestly, I'd say other people in this thread have been lackluster with content.

So I don't understand your thinking here.

Also thanks for the

brass/Me

dichotomy,

HeWhoSwims

[Taly]

[Taly]

@Taly:

Please read my words thanks

I never called your posts nonsensical babble. You misunderheard me talking to hitalt. I tried to explain that in an earlier post but you must have skipped it. I'm not trying to be corrosive to you as you say. Let's be cool.

With that being said I also think you have far too negative a reaction to scrutiny. If me not having an immediate positive reaction to you makes you doubt your read on me then you're letting emotions cloud your judgement. Take a deep breath m8. Remember your mantras and shit. Goosefraba. This is a happy place and, in my view at least, a p chill game.

OK, perhaps I misread the atmosphere and your post then.

I do get a bit passionate and carried away with my emotions sometimes. My reads are becoming a little less volatile as time passes, since I'm being oriented into this game.

Conclusion: Scum is either very strong, or town is very weak. No middle ground. I feel like there's been much more town-wagons and town-suspected in this game than anything else.

explain this? It's day 1. Whilst we are all scum hunting, it's never super successful on day 1, so i'm not sure what you are getting at here

I just read through the game thinking

"why are people voting here"

?

I didn't think the

gustavo-inferno

interaction was convincing for either of them to be scum - I'll likely reread to see if I missed something.

I don't see the townreads on

brass

, and I'm iffy with

HeWhoSwims

at the moment.

And the

Sky

wagon is something I'll look into a bit more, but it happened quickly and nothing really has come from it other than the fact that everyone on the wagon has been suspected.

So there IS info. D1, and yes, D1 is not easy for scumhunting, but I feel like I have a differing thought process from quite a few people in the game and I'm sorting that out.

I see your perspective better now. You feel more consistent this game,

profii

X3

I was a bit hasty on that, dramonic fits with duck and ausuka too.
I'm willing to lynch either of dramonic/SkyG.
Taly ensured that the dave-slot gets to live another day. (Still think there's above 50% chance for scum)
Phoneposting and truthtelling.

Yeah, I don't agree with the "no case individual" thing being useful, at least not rn because trying to pinpoint a team on D1 is very unlikely to happen and much more likely to cause dichotomies which could incriminate townies.

There's also not a lot of individual reason you have, your reads feel holistic and universal so I don't know how you come to some of your conclusions. Namely the

dramonic/Sky/Chick

reads.

Also, I don't get why you're wanting me to 'live another day' when I'm 50%+ likely to be scum to you...?

@Taly/Hit--both of you guys can fairly capably read me (and MoI may or may not be able to literally look into my soul). I'm chilling this phase a little in the spirit of the game as I'm normally the bloke with the same postcount as half the rest of the thread put together at this point.

my playstyle doesn't lend itself well to short coherent synthesised posts so it's something I need to force. the number of players in this phase doesn't make that easy yet.

are there people you're not willing to engage with or are you observing rn? I've seen you with more posts in games of this size

[Taly]

Hey I’m back … had a crazy weekend …

@Taly

– Thanks for replacing in. I have a couple of questions for you.

So you just discarded all your reads as of 683 because you didn’t like how people reacted to your entrance? Are you telling me all the work you did in your “First 9” catch-up was so flimsy as to just be discarded because you replaced a slot under pressure and people didn’t immediately give you replacement halo Town read?

Eh, discarding all of them was a bit of an exaggeration. I was being less fixed in my thinking since I wasn't updated.

I realized if I read the first 9 pages and made reads there, it wouldn't really apply to the gamestate at hand, and I figured that's what people were talking about. So I decided to keep my notes/thoughts I already had, but not let that dictate my thinking, and then read through the thread without coming to a lot of conclusions until I've made my assessment via quote replies after reading through.

I was mending a problem I tend to have in Mafia - where I speak too much and too quickly in order to get info this way instead of reading in depth

((which was what I did in my entrance and on page 27, and realized that wasn't too helpful until I did my own full reading))

.

In 640 you asked me about having Townreads. Do you think it is problematic to not have Townreads stated 24 hours or so into the game? If so why should I be Town reading you given your predecessor committed to basically at most 1 or 2 reads his entire tenure? If not why ask the question in the first place?

People form reads at different rates and off different ways of thinking.

So I don't think it's problematic to not have townreads within 24 hours, but I do think townreads are important to be voiced. It helps others - and mostly me - see where a person's head is at and lets me gauge their motives better. But, I don't expect everyone to agree with that.

Posting few reads isn't necessarily AI. It depends on the person, and I'm not

Dave

. I don't operate like

Dave

, I'm more vocal than him usually.

I don't want people to look at me and see my predecessor all the time. I'm my own player.

Also, when I ask what a person's townreads are, I don't want their read on me - unless I ask specifically. I want their

general

thinking.

Finally based on your only scum read in 641 and the sparse mentions of Sky in 640 am I to take it that the entirety of your scum read on the lowest hanging fruit in the game is for the use of LAMIST?

My scumread is a bit gone with

Sky

at the moment, she was a read that changed when I saw the context of the wagon.

And my biggest reason for her-scum wasn't solely for using LAMIST, my original thought was that I didn't find much motive to gamesolve on her end, which didn't make me feel very strongly about the scumread in the first place, especially upon reading more content.

691 is a much better look to my reads now.

[Taly]

Taly, how did you go from townreading brass to not being able to think of a post you like from him in 688? What were you seeing from him that was town early on that you don't like anymore?

Quite a few of my first-9 reads were superficial, and I felt that

brass

was being pro-town with his questions in 148, 150 and that his votes aligned with his thoughts. People also townread him, so I thought there was valid reasoning aside from that.

As I read through, I saw less and less content oriented to gamesolving from him which became a pretense to my scumread, the quotes I replied to were mainly what made me think he's scum.

Right now, I still don't townread him - but I do look at

brass

and wonder if he's town, because I have TvT'ed him before, and some of his posts I agree with a lot.

I have to pick apart citiations to fully respond to taly so that is currently on the backburner.

Or you could just give a general reply to my responses and not shelve me for later....

I'm likely to vote sky/taly if Flubber wagon doesn't go anywhere. I'll take another look at Dramonic, but I've pretty much been focussed on my Rask'ers thing, Taly has been the only other player to really hit my scum-dar whilst I've stayed there so perhaps Dramonic is worth a read.

Why are you waiting whether or not the wagon goes anywhere?

Also, this is another example of a post where there's little to no justification stated for a scumread on me, yet there it is.

Just a quick post here to say that Taly's responses I want to digest more in depth but I'm satisfied enough (combined with his general reads at least not being significantly different than mine) that I'm going to ...

VOTE: Flubber

I encourage you to reply in depth when you can

Also, what are your thoughts on

profii

?

Also, I don't get why you're wanting me to 'live another day' when I'm 50%+ likely to be scum to you...?

Even the best of scum "reveal themselves" if they post enough.
So far you have posted enough..!

So, instead of replying to me not understanding your

dramonic/chick/sky

reads 716, you talk about your

sky

read to

Elbirn

729, and then say

"scum reveal themselves if they post enough, you have posted enough"

but you don't do anything else about it...

I didn't say town is not doing what I want. Town really is not working together. I don't know why you would think my saying that town is not working together as I'm telling people to do what I want. I'm not some dictator or something looking for everyone to follow me, but everyone seems to be setting their own course (Mine is set for adventure, by the way).

Everyone should set their course for fun now, which means we should stop playing Risk.

This is a post I agree with

Brass

on

But, can yuo explain your

dramonic

read to me,

Brass

?

[Taly]

dramonoc

, are you alive? talk to me

[Taly]

Okay so

Dave's iso doesn't show a lot of clear reads to me. Moreso "I agree" or don't agree if that makes sense. I think the past 2 times I played with town Dave he'd have more solid reads but I'd have to meta dive.

Still dislike the fact that Taly strongtownreads Chick for townreading his slot, or the fact that Taly has to bring up Dave meta. Taly, explain?

Please read my recent and full catch-up posts...

my townread explanation on

Chick

was for a reaction, and it was never a strong townread - plus upon my catch-up I don't have a strong opinion of

Chick

at the moment...

...And I didn't bring up

Dave

meta aside from me thinking that his play here is similar to what I've seen town-him in the past. I never read this thread prior to replacing in and I was happy that

Dave

was consistent to what I think town-him is.

I don't know what explanation or thought you're looking for.

[Taly]

VLA until weekend

ill still post and reply but im not in the mindset for mafia and some things IRL have come up

[Taly]

@Taly

– I’m not sure how much depth you are looking for in my response to you.

First off the answer that I’m least happy with is your answer to the “Townreads” query from me. I know you aren’t Dave. However that whole answer feels like a sort-of meandering tour. You really sort of sidestepped the whole issue of why you asked in the first place if having Townreads in the first 24 hours isn’t unreasonable. Frankly the whole question was driven by the way you opened the question to me in the first place. The “Ugh” insinuated that somehow there was an expectation that I should have more to say about Town. Which I think would be pretty damn odd for the first 24 hours of the game regardless of how much a player normally gives Townreads. Which what little direct experience with me you have should have suggested I’m much more a scum-read driven player.

The "ugh" was because I read through your posts and didn't see townreads so I wasn't very sure of your thinking originally.

And meh, I don't meta-read people unless I've been in more than 1 game in with them - or, that 1 game I'm in with the player lasted for awhile and we survived through multiple dayphases.

So I didn't really pick up on you being a scum-read driven player. As scum in

Echo Bay

, I was focused on not getting shot by you LOL

My followup to you is this – how much game-solve should you expect from a brand new player in a Large game where there is a pretty sizeable group of players who seem well acquainted with each other? I had communication before the game even finished signups with Pine in which he confirmed to me Sky was a completely new account and not an alt. That upon replacing in you immediately started scum-reading a completely raw player didn’t set well with my gut.

As a newer player, I can see why someone would still be forming their approach to Mafia and thus reads, and Large games were hell for me in 2015. But I don't think about the joindate of a player until it's pointed out, or I look out of curiosity.

I didn't know

Sky

was new. Never saw

Inferno, Gustavo,

or

Andrius

before.

the worst, Chickadee, xyzzy, brassherald, profii, Ausuka, MoI (you)

are all people I either talk to a lot on MS, or have played with before.

My scumread on

Sky

wasn't immediate as in it happened the moment I replaced in.

It was my impression of the first 9 pages I read through, which dissipated when I caught up.

And no, alts almost never influence my reads unless I 100% know who they are and have played with them before.

What do I think of profii – I don’t per-se. He’s in my deep null pool at the moment (other members included xyzzy and HewhoSwims). There’s a bit of chummy “be friends” from him that I find reminiscent of Firebringer and thus want to dismiss. His posting really just reads as “there”. I’d really have to give him a deep ISO dive to move him in either direction as it stands. And I have other irons in the fire right now.

Since he appears to be in your Town pool why don’t you give me some wordage behind that? Thanks.

profii's

not a strong townread, partially because my read on him is meta.

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=75347 - I hammered him D3, I got NKed N5.

profii

was scum in that game, and he had a very scattered and inconsistent line of progression with his reads, votes, and thoughts in the game from what I remembered, and what made me lean to him being scum.

So far here, I don't get the same vibe. I don't like that

profii

is doing the same thing by waiting for a wagon to go on, but

profii

in this game so far has evaluated several more wagons and is not focused on certain players to lynch like he had an agenda in

Elemental Large

He's also more centered on his own independent thoughts this game.

((When has he mentioned that he should sheep?))

It's not strong reasoning even as meta, but it's enough to make me say

"no lynching this"

now

Speaking of which, I've done fuckall to gamesolve but everyone in this game townreads me. Guarantee scum cozying up to me in hope that my whimsical and flippant nature can make me easy to sway, or something.

This is how I feel about the playerlist and being scumread right now.

I hope I'm not being put to the side only to be set up as a mislynch later.

Taly apparently didn't get my point about not wanting them lynched D1, but trying to force my point across is likely not very smart.

Yeah. I totally got that you don't want my lynch D1.

I don't like that.

For someone that likes point that there's scum within multiple pools or groups of people, you definitely don't try to resolve your scumreads and you shelving me leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Also, I still want to hear

Dramonic/Chick/Sky

-scum idea.

[Taly]

Mmm.

I feel like some of my reads aren't very justified at the moment.

I read some of my games back in 2015 - I think I'm going to start tweaking my meta - having the best parts of my game 2015 and 2018 merged into a more cohesive gameplay.

Go check the situation and posting around my accused backpedaling.
My honeypot got very mild scrutiny and critique towards it in the start, and I actually got three votes on SkyG before I revealed why I had done what I did.
Now tell me this: why would I "backpedal" on those "faked scumreads" as scum?

Was your original honeypot stated as a reaction test in a way? Is that what led you to question

TW/Ausuka/Brass'

votes on

Sky

?

With some thought, I agree with 855 - I'm rethinking my scumread here, your playstyle is foreign but upon reading some of your posts, I'm not quite sure why people are pushing you to L-3.

In any case, I don't know what the benefit

Hit

-scum would have if he listed a group of people as suspect, that's a lot of heat he's pulling his way.

Is your response literally "how dare you scumread me, a player you supposedly don't know the alignment of!"

VOTE: HitAlt L-3 I think

I'm reading your ISO and I see little justification for this vote at all.

848 is also a poor response to 847 is extremely flippant.

I feel like scum would be on

Hit's

wagon at this point because the likelihood of who is in his pool

is

scum, or a townie who scum would want to survive longer.

Would vote Flubber, Talyslot, Alt, Dram, Chick, Sky. Probably would leave Taly alive above all. Maaaaybe dram.

You put 5 other people up for a potential vote but you go with the currently most-voted wagon and then don't try to figure out your reads...

Taly if you have time, can you summarize the select few reads this game what you feel the most strongly about in one post with an under 200 word count and no quotes. It would help me a lot, I have ADHD or something.

My strong read at the moment would be

MoI

for town.

Flubbernugget

for scum, but he's someone I want to recheck.

I'm liking

Ausuka

and

xyzzy

, but I'm planning to ISO them before I place them as strong town.

Brass

is a scumread I'm going to reevaluate.

which wagon is "that wagon"?

@Rask: I'd rather lynch Hit or Taly.

1)

Why is

Hit

scum to you? I don't see a lot of reasoning connected to your vote.

2)

Who is 790 directed to?

3)

Why do you reserve any opinion of my posts so far in this game?

4)

Thoughts on

Flubb

and his wagon?

I'm also planning to swoop in and take the hammer on flubber if at all possible. Because I don't get to hammer often

If you guys can get HitAlt to a hammer range, I would also hammer there.

@Inferno, who is the scum engineering this flubber wagon?

Why are you OK with hammering both? What's your thoughts on both of them and how would a lynch improve your clarity of the game?

Also, I'd appreciate you do

intent to hammer

like any other person.

~~~

Inferno

, what makes you think

Flub

is a counterwagon or scum-engingeered? Can you link posts and votes?

[Taly]

[Taly]

I'll post tomorrow if I don't burnout or withdraw from people

Just by skimming the past few pages, I do not want a

hitalt

lynch at all D1 and I will case a townread on that.

[Taly]

I'll respond to

Flubb

in detail as well

[Taly]

((also, what is a vanity wagon?))

[Taly]

How is 848 bad exactly Taly

The little justification is mostly because some off the stuff I dislike happened recently and partially because others pointed stuff out.

Your question seemed rhetorical and unhelpful. The whole post of 848 served to make it appear as though

Hit

was unjustified in his own question and thoughts about why people were discussing him.

You didn't seem interested in asking why or probing his thought process here.

Okay taly

Short answer to your challenge to me is that it's pretty obvious you voted me as the counterwagon that could save your ass

Yeah, I'm definitely voting you to save my ass.

That's why I voted you over

Sky

who had equal, if not more suspicion or votes at the time.

Dramonic is probably town

Elbrin is still scum, and shame on you all for letting the "I'm blatantly acting like scum but explicitly pointing that out so it's all okay" schtick fly under the radar.

dramonic

is no longer really town to me, so I hope you outline your read here.

And honestly, I agree with you on the

Elbirn

sentiment, I don't really like any of his posts in retrospect.

Okay taly let's dance.

Take me to dinner first?

Your first reach out to me is in 640. You're asking about me investigating into Rask/Profii being lamist and if that flows into my scum read on Dave somehow. Right out of the gate you're spewing nonsense at me that's hiding within your seas of text.

1)

because

Dave

said LAMIST too and this was before I go to your vote there.

2)

If I was hiding something within my sea of text, why wouldn't I pull quotes and bold the names of people I mention,

Flubb

?

3)

I don't think I'm spewing nonsense because this post is me asking you about

Rask/Profii

since you said you'd investigate them, I want to know how your read evolved here.

4)

And no, I never implied that

Rask/Profii

were being LAMIST, I remember one of them saying the buzzword LAMIST and that geared my thought about

Dave

and one of his earlier posts.

Next in 689 you take issue with me not having solid reads when I'm far from the only one with this issue. Why is this only problematic with me? How were other players of my activity level memorable enough for you to consider them town?

Because up until the post I quoted 336 or really until you voted

Dave

you didn't have a vote and you weren't really pushing your reads.

I couldn't think about you and automatically see your stances of them, which is what prompted my question.

Another thing to note is that you just stated in that post that the case on you was weak without really engaging with it.

You also take issue with me being suspicious of Gustavo even though he was obviously a controversial player and I came to the conclusion they were town anyway.

I was asking what

"wrt"

meant, and I'll need to reread for comprehension, but I just didn't like anyone's posting revolving around

Gustavo

including himself, and the

"side eye"

part was because I didn't want your response to resemble what other people say on the subject.

Sometimes I'm too quick to judge here - but I have a bad taste in my mouth whenever 3-4+ people have the same exact thought on something - especially when I'm not confident in reading them nor do I share the thought.

I'm also going to ask you a question. What posts of Elbrin's do you believe are advancing the game?

I'm not sure what post prompted this question, but I no longer really think this. I think 795 is an accurate representation on the gamestate involving him, and while he's pointed that out, I'm becoming weary of him.

I do like his quote posts where he engages... Rereading his ISO, I'm very iffy that

Hit/Me/Gustavo

have been his only votes because it's basically when each of these wagons were at a high point and his reasons for

Hit

were not original, and I didn't really get his scumread on me. 627 - 636

Also, despite you being able to post with lots of detail, you can't dive any deeper into my read on Dave other than "flub is wrong." This is extra bad considering a decent number of townies saw what I saw.

I don't think what you mentioned of

Dave

means he'd be scum though, since part of your case is noting he's analytical and to me that suggests you're familiar with him and that influences your read.

Dave

has a very similar feel to him here as he did in

Open 724 PYP

, where I was scum, and he was town. He wasn't too oriented in the game despite some of his really stunning and interesting analysis.

Dave

replaced out of this game with frustration, and I think that come from town-him more likely here than scum-him.

Oh, and rmember when you said I was Scum for having "very fluid" reads? When you give a full blown reads list in 691 you had to in several different ways excuse it as volatile. So you have to know to some extent that scum doesn't fall out of malleable reads.

The tl;dr is that you threw shit at the wall to deflect attention from your forming wagon and it's not sticking at all.

When did I say you were scum for having very fluid reads? I was saying your posting was weak because of your reads not seeming solid.

I almost always have a volatile read in a game, I even call those reads 'volatile' so it's easier to explain them, it's not an excuse to have a fluid, these reads are when I'm not concrete on.

Having fluid reads isn't a scumtell, but your ISO at the time of my assessment of your posts didn't have a lot of reads defined or stated.

[Taly]

1) Why is Hit scum to you? I don't see a lot of reasoning connected to your vote.

2) Who is 790 directed to?
3) Why do you reserve any opinion of my posts so far in this game?
4) Thoughts on Flubb and his wagon?

1) His entire ISO is posturing and arrogance. There's zero scumhunting, zero case, zero hard stance, zero nothing besides "Im the best, just give me til DX to prove it huehuehue". It's all white noise.[/quote]

This is a very simplistic look on it - I can see

Hit

-scum providing associations to confuse the gamestate, but I've only really seen town be this outlandish with associatives D1.

Why would

Hit

-scum throw associatives and teams out as a means to gamesolve in a way? That's a lot of attention garnered his way. He's acting on his scumreads; and he's changing them, which tells me he's taking the responses he gets from his points, and using that to gamesolve.

So he's not sitting around muddying the waters on people's reads, nor is he saying

"I'm the best and I should be sheeped"

. This rings to me has his playstyle.

Pushing him off as

"white noise"

while pushing for his lynch is counter-intuitive and unproductive at best.

2) Broken post tag, please clarify

I think you just have a gut scumread on me and are trying to throw everything and the kitchen sink at me hoping something will stick.
Just say it's gut.

3) I haven't reserved any opinion? I still think you're scum (who seems to have forgotten he's voting his buddy)

Yeah... So you're throwing an associative on

Me/Flubb

now because....?

Plus, are you meaning to tell me that all my posts so far haven't given you ANY rethought on your

Dave

? Is your read on slot even remotely involving

Dave

at the moment?

You're not communicating, and you withholding your thoughts that revolve around the reasons of your scumreads doesn't feel genuine.

4) Recent post makes me think Flubbs is town and probably just lynchbait. He's been the counterwagon to every major wagon today.

Yet I'm

Flubb's

scumbuddy voting him?

oh nvm, you're on the counterwagon.
Yeah, not movin.

Please tell me this post is you realizing that I'm voting

Flubb

...

[Taly]

I kinda like flubber pursuing taly with some fire though there is a specific scumtype that enjoys arguing and 1v1 exchanges as scum I'd want to doublecheck. I really want taly to just make a post without any quotes in it and going in depth on his gamestate for a few sentences because tracking reads through his posts is actually pretty difficult
Flubber VS Taly and Hitalt as other leading but sort of a separate thing altogether is a really interesting and somewhat bizarro gamestate FTR given there's usually more connection between the two different things (hitalt and sky are almost isolated from most other game events)

I get into 1v1s a lot... usually as town, though. I have a long history of 1v1s and even 1v2s and 1v3s...

I often catch scum with this method.

1v1s are as useful as how the town that participates use that.

Also, I'm a very case-style person... but I'm working on being conversational. Please just list a few questions to me and I'll respond to them. That's how I work best.

[Taly]

UNVOTE:

I'm not feeling the

Flubb

wagon at the moment - his response to me doesn't strike me as scum-indicative, I'm going to need to catchup a little and evaluate some reads.

I still want a response, though.

[Taly]

Flubber yelling at Taly for asking him questions does not feel towny to me. his handful of reads don't feel towny to me. The fact he's been a wagon all day when he's been transparently scummy is not mislynch indicative. I'm so confused.

I don't quite get the same feel here, could you explain?

Then we can lynch Taly first after HA since everyone and their grandma has a boner for keeping TW alive

Are you just going to line up lynches according to your poorly-articulated reads?

That's a lovely accusation, except I've been on Taly's ass since before the replacement and TW making a stupid play doesn't make it not there. I'm still saying the three are scum.

I'm not saying you're stupid, but you're confused as fuck.

What a lovely response to a rational notion

Inferno

proposes in 920... takes a bit of a condescending tone at, don't you think?

Unwarranted.

I'm confident in

Hit

-town at this point, and I'm glad

Inferno

is looking more than surface level stuff in order to cultivate his scumread, and you seem threatened by this.

Also, real happy that you love claiming that you've been

"on my ass"

since I've replaced in, but you've seriously ignored any content from me unless I explicitly pull your teeth for it.

We have a competing wagon in flubs,

HA could be a good PR

, TW might just be bad at scum.
Those are three valid reasons (albeit the third might not be I dont know the guy besides site chat)

If you ever thought I was a town-PR, you should never say something like this out loud..!
VOTE: dramonic - my mind is actually made at this point I think.

But if scum!dramonic thinks that, he can just PT his buddies... why is that of all things AI and not just bad town

And why is

dramonic

bad town and not scum here?

Don't like that last series of flubber posts (975 to 978).

HitAlt's 979 is flaily enough for me to keep my current vote for now, though.

You describe a lot of your scumreads' posts as flaily, but you seem to have multiple scumreads...

Thoughts on

dramonic

?

[Taly]

-Is passive aggressively tunneling Taly despite giving no reads on him after davesaz replaces out

It's the same playerslot. I don't care what Taly has to say.

-only provided original reads on davesaz. No other original content from the slot after that exchange

Townread deleted.

There's so many things wrong with this post.

VOTE: dramonic VOTE: dramonic VOTE: dramonic

In what world does town literally dismiss an entire replacement slot and tunnel their scumread based off a predecessor, while ignoring the other slot's posts?

Maybe this vote will encourage you

TO CARE

about

ANY

of

MY

posting

IN THIS GAME

because they

HOLD WEIGHT

.

I'm not moving my vote until you drop this

"you're scum and I want your lynch for reasons that vaguely apply because I don't want to try to read you more"

approach.

I completely disagree with the

Hit

lynch and you seem borderline apathetic about me having any opinion at all, despite it being different from yours.

~~~

Side note, I'm not sure about

TW

read at the moment, but there's more worthy people for me imo.

I think scum-

TW

WKing town-

Hit

is more possible than any reality regarding

Hit

-scum, but I have people I'm borderline tunneling to the ground at the moment.

[Taly]

I'm still willing to lynch in [Gazer, Taly, Dram, Hit, Chick], my preference is [Hit/Gazer/Dram] at this point

You're still OK with 5 people to lynch, and it's 2 days from deadline.

How about you talk to me about my

dramonic

vote, and since there's not enough discussion here, what about

Chick

being virtually nonexistent in the thread at the moment?

[Taly]

I'm going to stray from doing D1-townblocs because I often have a deepwolf there when it's made so early.

But

{MoI, Hit, and Inferno}

are strongest townreads at the moment.

There's about 3 people a step below strong townreads, but I need to evaluate them more individually and see if the read sticks.

{Andrius, Ausuka, xyzzy}

{Sky, profii, Rask}

are townleans, at least.

{Elbirn, Chick, the worst, Brass, HeWhoSwims, Flubb}

has both town and scum in it. I need flips and concrete info to help decipher this.

I'm going to need my high-townreads to lmk if I'm tunneling

dramonic

too hard because I will piledrive that slot and feel little-to-no remorse if it flips town at this point in time.

[Taly]

Also, it only takes a question and I'll elaborate on reads/a read.

[Taly]

Thank you for the textbook example of "caught for the wrong reason" Taly. We'll put you in the wiki

Please tell me why and how I'm even caught in the first place when all of your posts directed toward anything remotely about me are dismissive, flippant, and callous.

As town, you have no justification for your push here, and I'm actually a little stung by you degrading my post toward you about this...

Impression is 1042 response to profii is saying it's bad, though maybe he was just talking in general

I actually townread you but I think hit's probably scum and dramonic sees similar as me

Actually have to go now so I can't really read ISOs but can you post what you think the "smoking gun" is on dramonic for you

I just want to hear the reasons behind

dramonic

town here because they're playing unbelievably anti-town at the moment.

1)

dramonic

on 870 and 871 show that he literally has no care and is throwing associatives revolving around his individual and barely-formulated scumreads, he writes

Flubb

off as a lynchbait counterwagon but doesn't explain how.

2)

His entire read on me is based on

Dave

and he's not even communicating with me on the gamestate beyond saying he doesn't give AF about my posts. 1011

3)

His push on

Hit

doesn't have a lot of stated reasoning and a lot of his responses are just pushing off any post that brings up a point to him. 802 - 920 - 1052

I can even go further on depth with my problems on

dramonic

right now.

I understand that I'm becoming pretty blinded by

dramonic's

abysmal response to me, but I'm legit getting annoyed and he's actively creating a dichotomy within the game if he's town.

But I don't think he's town, because town he has no incentive to have the approach to the game that he has, and as scum, it makes much more sense to be sitting on popular wagons while deflecting ANY argument his way.

And I know that

dramonic

is an older player and deviates from currrent site-meta - but so I have to an extent - and I can't even perceive how he's town with this mindset.

[Taly]

Walking out the door, I'm busy today, I'll post later.

But I'm not backing down on this.

[Taly]

Why am I being written off as someone throwing a tantrum whining about being bullied when I've put up valid reasons for my scumread?

Anyone perpetuating this notion is automatically catching my eye. I'm frustrated, but I'm not getting bent out of shape and going crazy.

I don't care about being scumread. That doesn't bother me at all.

I care about being ignored. I don't care if I'm endangered of bring lynched or not.

I want to see drams reaction when I flip town here. He's so confident I'll flip scum that it doesn't read as overconfident town. He doesn't want to face discussion with me because that'll invalidate his reasons of scumreading me which don't make much sense because they're not based on my play.

I don't want dram replaced out or even warned. This is a game related issue and it's not going beyond that.

[Taly]

Lol if people think I'm bent out of shape... they should see my other games.

MOI, when I get to a computer, I can easily link you at least 5 town games where I am involved with at least one 1v1...

A lot of those games lead me to scum.

A tame town game for me is when I don't get into 1v2s... or only one 1v1.

I'm much more likely to avoid 1v1s as scum, even though I sometimes get into them.

[Taly]

Games where I fought scum AND/OR town in, as town.

These are not all the games I could link, but the most memorable and relevant to me - and I forgot where some town games were. I'm lazy with my wiki. These are Opens, Micros, and Themed games.

2015 Games

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=60902 -

Town won this game

, I caught scum D2, not within the 1v1 but yeah - but I was consistently scumread and tunneled through D2 here. This was my first begun game on MS. 1v1ed twice here.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=64408 -

One of my stronger town-games I didn't win

. I was consistently at odds with

Titus

, and half of my other spats with the playerlist involved scum. Ultimately, I was mislynched in lylo when

ABR

responded to me a similar way

dram

is right town and

FA

was newer to Mafia here and she had a game-long gut scumread on me. I did completely gamesolve D4, though.

2015 Games Where I'm A Hydra

(Brunneis: Taly+Klingoncelt)

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=63682 -

Town won.

I pegged the SK and was on both scum lynches following it when it seemed like town was going to lose.

The entire playerlist was scumreading and 1v1ing our hydra for most of the game, mostly because of my head.

We were a wagon for most of the game.

Ika

was our only saving grace near the end here.

2018 Games

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=75347 -

Another town loss; but I was correct on my D1, D2, and D3 EoD vote.

This was the game where

profii

was scum and I hammered him, I consistently 1v1ed with him and

Sando

, but he was town. Town lost because I was really the only townplayer after D4 that gamesolved, aside from

Ausuka

who got NKed... Both the SK and final scum kept talking to me into tunneling lurky or inconsistent town. I got a lot of flak in this game because people said I was overreacting a lot. This was also a game where I falsely thought

Brass

was scum and powerlynched his hydra D4.

((Sorry about that!))

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=75978 -

The town won this game.

Several awesome players like

Wisdom

kept me from tunneling other townies like

Nos

,

acryon

or

Katsuki

, but I was correct on a few scumreads and contributed to a powerful townbloc.

2018 Games Where I'm A Hydra

(Purple Heart: Taly+Alisae)

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=75360 -

This game was scrapped and unfinished, but town pegged the entire team.

I was getting at odds with people around as much as

Alisae

did. I feel like I was a reason we didn't get mislynched since EoD1 and N1 results incriminated our slot terribly.

(Vartsun: Taly+Varsoon)

viewtopic.php?f=83&t=75853&start=475

I don't get how town won this, but things worked near the end of the game. Varsoon

was the more controversial head here, but I 1v1ed

Ausuka

,

Brass

and a few other people. We hit scum though.

But yeah. These aren't my scum games where I don't really want to 1v1 people.

So the whole

"1v1 is what scum wants and thrives on"

argument doesn't apply to me, or really, not everyone.

[Taly]

I'm not saying my 1v1s are always correct, or even helpful to town, even though I try to make them be instead of just WIFOM baskets.

I'm just saying, it's something I do and it's a tactic I use to help my perception of the game.

[Taly]

TW

whats your read on me?

[Taly]

I gave a lynch pool of 4 if you were paying attention. Taly/Hit/Dram/Flubber.

And what are your actual reads on the lynchpool you just brought up?

Because your posts don't align to you scumreading all of the 4 people you say would be an optimal lynch today...

~~~

UNVOTE:

With an extra day, and the claim, I don't want to have my vote up yet. I have a better understanding of

dram's

play a little now, but I still don't like his gameplay...

But in the same breath, I can see him being town. I could revote this soon, but I may not.

I don't feel comfortable lynching claims at all D1,

especially protective roles.

~~~

VOTE: dram

decided

Can you explain what led you to this conclusion and has that changed with the claim?

~~~

Elbirn

, please outline what makes you think

xyzzy

isn't providing much insight. I'm going to re-evaluate

xyzzy

, he looks into a lot of posts and comments on them but I don't know how and what conclusions he's gone to.

At the same time, I don't feel too hot about his flashwagon.

~~~

Flubb

, you posted that you acknowledged a

dram

but what do you think about it...? Also, did you see my post in response to you?

[Taly]

[Taly]

It’s based on the fact that there has simply not been enough discussion around any other players to justify a lynch.

Honestly, I really haven't heard enough of a reason to justify a lynch on me outside of

"

Dave

was scummy"

and people having issues with my entrance and

Dram

vote

I want to know why

Dram's

claim is scum to you

And why is

MoI

scum to you?

[Taly]

[Taly]

For comprehension, all the people that feel strongly on their lynch, can they make a short assessment or not-too-lengthy case of their thoughts?

I can't work with the whole

"vote here and yay it's going to flip scum"

reply....

-_-*... Especially in light with people telling me my votes and pushes so far have sucked without much reasoning beyond

"

Taly

is overreacting!"

but w/e.

There's at least 4-5 different wagons right now and that is very unhelpful given the lack of time we have.

***

I strongly feel that there's a huge lack of scum motivation in

Hit

once you read him in depth - he has literally nothing to benefit as scum from most of any of his posts this dayphase.

Short Answer:

I'm probably not voting here at all.

***

I don't like that

Flubb

only posts when he's being suspected and that warrants MY revote because he's the least present person with a wagon that several people are tip-toeing saying they'd jump on but aren't doing jackshit atm.

Short Answer:

I'll likely revote this.

***

I'm not lynching a

Dram

who made protective claim in a Normal on D1 - like seriously, wtf guys? Unless someone has this elaborate scum theory that revolves around

Dram's

fakeclaim, or discusses how his play deserves a lynch regardless, I don't think lynching a potential Town PR is optimal at all for D1.

Short Answer:

Very unlikely that I'll vote here.

Also

Chickadee

is getting by with nothing, and while I don't think

HeWhoSwims

and

Brass

are scum at the moment, their posts are essentially

"I'll lynch to lynch if I don't have a strong argument leading me to something when we have to lynch!"

But what are they doing right now?

I can understand why anyone would want to lynch for info but even if that was 2nd priority to scum;

NO WE'RE NOT DOING THAT. NOT IN THIS GAMESTATE.

I'm going to look into

xyzzy

tonight, or early tomorrow morning in depth.

[Taly]

oh wait

Brass

voted

Dram

...

[Taly]

***I don't like that Flubb only posts when he's being suspected and that warrants MY revote because he's the least present person with a wagon that several people are tip-toeing saying they'd jump on but aren't doing jackshit atm.
Short Answer: I'll likely revote this.

*fist bump*

Actually...

I just stated a very valid reason for the

Flub

lynch, given my scumread on him never really dissipated.

VOTE: Flubbernugget

This may change when I look at

xyzzy

, but I'm fine with my vote here for EoD1.

P-Edit

taly my man we're gonna have PRs coming outta our ass this game
if i eat the NK please don't be chicken shit about lynching claimed PRs going forward

i'm valuing andrius' hard meta read a lot more than a roleclaim there

What's keeping you from changing your vote or unvoting then? If I read correctly,

Andrius

townreads

Dram

?

I'm not afraid to lynch PRs...

If it's any dayphase that's

NOT

D1.

In my experience, town more often flourishes when they take claims at face value, at least until they can be disproved, scumtainted or countered later in the game.

Also, nobody should ever look for a CC in good conscience, at least this early in the game.

[Taly]

But, I have towned scum-PRs...

I'm not good at weeding what's a good fakeclaim or what a scum-PR claim would be in most situations, and how that changes with the circumstances.

I just don't want to lynch

Dram

and be like

"FUCK he could've been useful for town"

when I had the gut instinct/principle to

NOT

lynch him.

And then if he IS a Town-PR that whole argument becomes WIFOM against me and other townies on his hypothetical wagon.

The risk outweighs the benefit, depending on the game narrative.

[Taly]

Oh well fuck, just saw

Hit

claimed too...

[Taly]

“lynch regardless of claim if scummy” which is 100% scum beneficial play. This is a Large game. It will go on for many days and not giving any thought to the potential damage to Town from mislynching a claimed role is at best terrible play

This explanation expands on my thinking about

Dram

in 1223 and now the

Hit

lynch even more so.

yeah ok that's reasonable. I'm not a mechanics wizard.

I wouldn't say it's just mechanics... the gamestate has a huge influence as well.

If I had to be honest, I don't like the game narrative much.

[Taly]

Once again, I have a crumb of influence over part of the playerlist, and literally none over the rest.

And that's probably going to be used for AND against me very soon.

[Taly]

Fun times

[Taly]

I know right? How the fuck am I not lynched?

[Taly]

What a way to coach your scumbuddies in the game thread - splendid!

And that's probably going to be used for AND against me very soon.

Great example of this btw

<3

[Taly]

Anyway, I'm about to go take a math test, bye.

Better see some cases for lynches and/or vote changes.

[Taly]

What a way to coach your scumbuddies in the game thread - splendid!

Actually, now that I think about it, what was the point of this post?

Was it a joke or were you actually going somewhere with this?

@Taly

You stated my thoughts exactly for a flubber wagon. They only post when they're being suspected, and much of their posting is self centric.

To be honest, I haven't seen much of you posting on things irrelevant to you either, or much in general.

The man isn't prod-dodging though. He posts and keeps up and sure he's not conf.town or anything but he posts somewhat regularly and does content which is more than some people can say given the amount of pseudo-lurkers we have this game. >.<

I don't know,

Flubb's

made some random posts that hold no fluff to make it seem like he's active.

And

Hit

is actually very active, can you just outline what about his posts or motives that align with scum?

DON'T HAMMER QUICKLY, I WANT REPLIES TO MY POSTS HERE.

[Taly]

UNVOTE:

To ensure a hammer doesn't happen just yet.

hi i'm here and should do something but i don't know what to say :/

how are people reading HWS?

I really would not be surprised if they were scum, but I've seen town play like them, and I wish they replied to me more and didn't have a 5+ person lynchpool.

[Taly]

flubbers probably the only still viable wagon given deadline though I'd find a TW or Taly flip infinitely more interesting

Can you explain your scumread on me? And the vote on

Flub

?

I'm annoyed with almost the entire playerlist at this point, so I need people to spell out their thoughts to me if they're not resistant.

Also, I don't know what to think about

TW

as well, EVERY game we've played where we trust and complement the other in playstyle - like all of our completed games so far

((I can link those games btw))

We were different alignments, and the town-side got fucked EVERY time... and while they feel different this game, I can't give an accurate meta assessment.

And I'm very confident that he reciprocates the feeling because I've

ALWAYS

been

"deepwolf or town"

to him. But I can't complain because that's similar to my read on him as well.

So I'm taking a similar approach to

MOI

at the moment, and that is to evaluate him while having flips and more game-info I can pry into.

Nothing he's posted so far has swayed me to read him in a certain direction.

[Taly]

Did nobody fucking hear me?

[Taly]

lol the fuck

profii

[Taly]

Rask

I'll be more mindful that posts like 1217 help you, it's a more general look of my view of the gamestate and I think it often garners more fruitful interactions from others.

A lot of my playstyle is centered around interacting with the playerlist, it's how I generate reads and gamesolve. That's why I can be very forward when I don't understand something, or when I do and have an opinion on it.

My scum-range and town-range are both very wide and overlap in terms of behavior and gameplay, but I'm more calculated and alert about who I communicate with as scum. I'm less consistent as town.

[Taly]

lmao

profii

you crazy

[Taly]

Oh, thanks for the ISO

Chick

, has your unsure/null/IDK reads changed so far?

[Taly]

I asked you to prove that you consistently caught scum using 1v1. --- I'm left wondering why you chose to spend the time on that post if it wasn't to show success at catching scum with 1v1s explicitly.

Because the games I linked were ones where I did 1v1 or line-by-line have a conflict with someone and whether it was that person or not, lynched or caught scum consistently?

-_-***...

It was to show success at catching scum... I can link pages and elaborate on it specifically

When I flip town, lynch elbrin, and his scum flip will implicate hit alt.

Don't forget taly is scum.

Are you going to even reply to my posts directed to you several pages ago... or are you going to keep repeating that I'm scum again?

[Taly]

It's been awhile since I've felt this dissatisfied with D1.

>

Nobody is reading me confidently, unless they're pointing out I'm scum without much reasoning or engaging with me extensively. I think I'm honestly being shelved to become a mislynch later.

>

It seems like someone has had an issue or disagreed with literally any read I've had in this game that I've elaborated on.

>

I feel mentally exhausted replying to people because it either feels like it's not going anywhere or I'm being a broken record. I need to change my approach in this game.

>

I'm reversing on a few reads right now, which usually doesn't happen this early.

>

I am running low on motivation to push my thoughts, and it's not helpful because I'm naturally becoming inward with my thoughts instead of focusing on what's going on generally. So I don't think my thoughts and approach align together.

I don't think anyone's willing to work with me at the moment, and it's made it difficult to read through the motives of others.

[Taly]

I'll post a readslist I've been working on tomorrow

[Taly]

Damnit, hopefully I have time to type the rest of the readslist.

Just woke up

[Taly]

-_- I wasn't able to post my readslist but with

dram

flipping scum, the direction of my reads are changing a lot.

Going to have to edit the readslist I was going to post.

I discourage any and all discussion revolving around figuring out who shot

dram

.

YAS

NICE SHOT VIG

VOTE: Andrius

If you are Town, you should sheep this. I will post a full refutation of MoI and also fully explain on Andrius when I get to a computer (at work rn).

The biggest problem last dayphase was that not many people elabroated on their strongest reads and pushes, so I'll be waiting for this post.

I'm going to re-evaluate

Andrius

, he was becoming more towny to me.

I'm extremely weary of the SEVERAL people who bashed the Dram wagon, and my reasons for voting there.

I'm feeling a little more confident with

Inferno

and

Hit

being town again.

So
brass, why coming in with Taly?

He was the main one arguing against lynching dramonic after the claim, as I recall. dramonic was scummy af, I feel like it was scum trying to protect their PR.

So, you're looking at me for going on the wagon in the first place, but not the people who avoided it altogether?

I gave my reasons for why I felt lynching

dram's

claim wasn't effective D1, and I'm not one to discern what's scum and what's town based off claims, so I took his at face value.

[Taly]

Andrius

, do you have no response to

Inferno

voting you?

Or

Brass

, for hopping onto that vote like he's done many others?

[Taly]

The only reads I was able to REASON/WRITE fully that immediately still stand after the Dram scumflip.

Raskolnikov

- I already stated that I liked his entrance, and in the past few days, they've been a lot more active with discussion. Most of their entire ISO revolves around looking beneath the surface on the playerlist, and his votes are well-justified. 964

the worst

vote - 1093 his length look into

hit

- 1252 and 1253 where he talks about how hammers help him while giving his assessment on

Andrius

. His thoughts are unique to the playerlist from what I've seen. He also outlines that he works off cases and makes what he's looking for clear. Very coherent.

xyzzy

- Reading xyzzy's ISO shows me that a lot of his wallposts were somewhat detached. He doesn't explicitly ask or start much dialogue with who he engages with, and a lot of his assessments seem generated on his own thinking. I feel like town would've been more pushy with vote on the

Hit

lynch given claim, but the final bits of

xyzzy's

posts of D1 don't even mention this.

Ausuka

- I understand

Ausuka's

been very frustrated with Mafia lately, but her lack of engagement and content could be used for a scum advantage, I don't want her slipping through this dayphase without a good bit of conversation.

Post-Flip Add-On: I like that she's posting more now.

the worst

-

the worst

has been almost borderline downplaying his thinking in this game. Posts like 1193 "let's sheep Andrius", the random posts that don't add content, and phrases like "I'm not a mechanics wizard" serve to be as a shield from putting forth his own insight. This D1 was widely frustrating for the playerlist, but I wasn't impressed with

TW's

contribution and his L-1 to

Flub

in 1282 on the same page I unvoted to avoid a hammer, felt very odd. His posts seem inconsistent from somewhat defending the

Flub

scumreads in 901 to questioning why it's even there. 1026

Post-Flip Add-On: I really want him to explain 1109, and what made him the Dram's claim was scum 1184

~~~

At the end of D1, I was beginning to question

Hit

-

Inferno

, but I feel better about them now.

I was feeling confident with

Chick, Andrius, MOI

-town, but I'm unsure at the moment.

I want to know why those 3 had issues with the

dram

wagon and the reasons for it in depth.

[Taly]

I wish people will start asking me more questions and engage with me more this dayphase in a way that doesn't involve doubtcasting me.

I still feel like a separate entity from the playerlist.

@taly; don't really get the tw scumread? I feel like his dram interactions are really good and him saying he's not a mechanics wizard is in no way scummy or something that's been exclusive to this game. I don't see why the worst downplays his mechanics understanding as scum while in reality he actually understands mechanics well? Because that seems like something pointless to lie about that would get caught out.

sure VOTE: chickadee

It's not my most well-reasoned or strongest scumread, and I don't know how much it will stand once I think more about my reads - but I want to press more content from him, he felt a bit reserved D1.

I want to know why those 3 had issues with the dram wagon and the reasons for it in depth.

because its dram and I don't want to see him dead
is basically where I was at

So was it just meta? Or?

OK, with this in mind, I have a CRAZY idea that will likely backfire, so I'll skip that.
But.
I feel 75% sure I was protected last night AND I got a guilty on the scummie who tried to kill me.

TO BE CERTAIN WOULD REQUIRE OUR VIG TO STEP FORWARD AND CLAIM THE KILL THAT WENT THROUGH.

Opinions?

I'd rather not claim a vig yet and lose them to scum, but I'm interested in the guilty

You being protected implies that you think you were targeted to be shot, so can you walk me through your thought process here?

[Taly]

dramonic - Inferno390, Taly, the worst, HitAlt, HeWhoSwims
HitAlt - Andrius, Skygazer, dramonic, xyzzy, Flubbernugget, Raskolnikov

feel like the dram wagon is full of town + there is probably going to be more than just dram for scum on Hitalt? so one or more of {andrius, skygazer, xyzzy}

What's your individual read of

{andrius, skygazer, xyzzy}

?

[Taly]

>Ausuka

is quickly rising to the town area, very much liking her coming to my level here.

>

I'm putting some faith in

Hit's

judgment, by association, it seems borderline impossible for him to be scum at this point.

>

I'm not buying

Andrius'

reasoning for the

dram

read but I don't have much confidence to push a read either way on him at the moment.

You being protected implies that you think you were targeted to be shot, so can you walk me through your thought process here?

Taly hit claimed investigative, I know because I was going to lynch him otherwise.

Wait what?

[Taly]

OH I MISREAD THAT POST

RASK

LOL

I THOUGHT YOU WERE SAYING I CLAIMED INVEST XD

[Taly]

Yeah.

Hit

and

Inferno

are IC's to me at the moment.

Andrius

, I guess you could write an essay...?

Or better yet, you could explain to me why you townread

Dram

, I think I missed that.

@Taly, Personally I believed the Dram claim. Without the claim, I probably would have been alright to switch to that wagon, but with the claim and the fact that I didn't read Dram well enough one way or the other, I didn't want to vote there.

VOTE: The Worst
Other than me, TW is the one that was really against the Dram wagon, and has kinda played off his fluff posting as "not wanting to clog the game thread." It kind of feels like hiding behind the chill nature of the game.

I don't know if I agree with this exactly.

There was plenty of people expressing dislike for the

Dram

wagon or at least the votes on it.

And

TW

only unvoted the

Dram

wagon when I told him lynching a protective claim D1 was suboptimal.

[Taly]

Townbloc

Taly
Chickadee
HitAlt
Inferno390
Raskolnikov
Ausuka

Everyone active in the thread right now is giving me townvibes. Like

Brass, Andrius

becoming townleans.

i guess we can wait for the vig. i still don't get scumreads on tw at all.

Take my scumreads with a grain of salt at the moment because with

Dram

flipping scum, a lot of my reads are being reset to what they were Mid-D1, but I have more game information to process.

My brain is going 90 MPH at the moment, and since I'm blending a

"Conversational Posting Style"

with my

"Wallpost Style"

, it's showing.

[Taly]

Taly, serious question, do you think scum me ever goes so hard on a scum partner like I was on dramonic most of day 1?

No and that's why you've just reversed into a Townlean, townread even, maybe townbloc, the dots are still being connected.

[Taly]

[Taly]

OK

Brass

is in townbloc

[Taly]

Brass

, talk to me about

TW

and

HWS

[Taly]

@Rask

Being correct or incorrect about a read doesn't determine someone's alignments, necessarily.

It's the motivation that's found behind the reads, and you could explain your thoughts on

Dram

in depth.

But you've been consistently a solid townread for me

Rask

, and I'm failing to see how your posts come from a scum-POV especially in light of your posting so far this dayphase.

I could go more in depth and case the townread if you don't think it's justified, but me townreading you isn't new.

OK

Brass

is in townbloc

Too early for this.
Depending on if the Vig-claim happens, brass might be the lynch for D3.

ehhh I townbloc quickly but I'm not seeing how

Brass

would consistently bus a strong scum PR

[Taly]

ok

TW

is going to the

"need-to-sort"

pile rather than scum

TW

, has your reads changed with the

Dram

scumflip?

~

I'm going to stop posting in a few minutes to recollect my thoughts, but I'm not looking favorably at

HWS

with the gamestate.

[Taly]

*low-key still checking up on the thread but not sure what to say at the moment*

TW

, can you elaborate on what you like about my townbloc?

Are there any reads in there you want me to elaborate on?

[Taly]

for the sake of the exercise elaborate on Chickadee and Inferno390

Inferno390-

Inferno

isn't mechanically conf'ed, but aside from

Rask

and maybe

Hit

, he's had the most town-oriented gameplay thus far and I will defend that case.

1)

He was always someone I've townread to degree in 691 because his engagement and stances are very hard to fake if he were scum. I think his bout with

Gustavo

revealed a frustration that town tends to fall into when they feel strongly on a read.

2)

I expressed this vaguely in 694 where it's a toneread, and that hasn't changed even now, if anything it's stronger for reasons I'm about to mention.

3)

Definitely in light of

dram's

flip, I think 920 was not something

dram

-scum would say to a buddy, it was a dismissal of

Inferno

looking deeper into

dram

and sticking to his thoughts even when the playerlist didn't agree. I even mentioned this in 1042

4)

While I didn't like this initially 1153,

Inferno

was aware that the playerlist late D1 was not congealing and he did bring up flips that would give a lot of clarity to the gamestate.

5)

I simply don't think

Inferno

-scum would tunnel/bus

dram

especially after his claim 1164

6)

He also argued against

Dram's

read on me in 1085 when I wasn't solid-town to

Inferno

, scum would have no reason to take this stance for me if

Inferno

was scum with

Dram

, or in general.

...

7)

From

Inferno

being the only person to actually grant and ask me for my voice when a lot of people suspected me in this game to-

((749 - 873 - 996 - 1014 - 1047 - 1074))

8)

Inferno

sticking to his scumreads despite the heat of the town, he just spews a strong desire to gamesolve and work with those that are on his level and agree with him.

((Read last few pages of D1))

He goes against the playerlist for his beliefs, and that is a strong town trait that I wish I emulated all the time.

Associatively, it makes no sense that he's scum, and I cannot readily see a reality where he is scum. Honestly, if I wanted to go deeper into

Inferno's

ISO moreso than what I'm doing now, I'll probably just find more tidbits that suggest he's town.

Chickadee-

This is a more surface-level townbloc, but with strong reasoning in my eyes.

1)

Prior to

dram

flip,

Chick

was in my townreads for her response and progression on

dram

D1. 447 - 761 - 1180 She's not sold on

dram

wagon but isn't swayed too much either way it seems until she believes and notes that lynching

Dram

with his claim wasn't a good idea. I really, really doubt this is how scum would treat their strong PR role. I feel like

Chick

would be much more sharp with her read there if they were associated.

2)

Nobody's really read

Chickadee

in depth and the votes on her don't make much sense when she engaged with me in 1281 and linked posts that showed her thinking, ISO, and a thought process that contradicts the notion that she's doing nothing...

...I feel like

Chickadee

is mislynchbaity because of this.

3)

Scum would be very, very ballsy to claim Vengeful Town D2 when their RB just got NKed. 1406

Chickadee

even said she'd entertain getting lynched if it meant shooting scum, but she wasn't sure because she wasn't feeling strongly about the scumread on

TW

and voiced that. 1420

This is not how scum plays at all.

At all.

Unless

Chickadee

is a mastermind, but doubting her intention at the moment is suboptimal.

[Taly]

Also I have a couple of reasons to believe Taly is town

I kind of want to hear this

<3

do u love meh

tw

?

[Taly]

i feel like im the third-wheel in a hot/cold relationship rn

[Taly]

Is there a reason you're not elaborating on your read on me?

[Taly]

A simple "yes/no" would suffice in this instance btw

[Taly]

I think I understand what's been going on here, unfortunately that means it's all a red herring though.

[Taly]

Rask

, am I still a big blur in this game now?

[Taly]

I would love to be SK, I would fucking agree to be leashed as SK so that I could help town and keep doing my thing. I still have not rolled SK, and I am still sad.

I believe I have said this in a game on my alt like 2 days ago, I really want a third party game.

I don't get the point of this post

MOI

gave the possibility of you being SK or a Vig when you already said if you were SK, that you'd have claim.

In no world is it optimal or make sense that the SK would be kept alive after a claim, even if they were leashed for awhile, and you'd be debatably going against your wincon.

And if you believed that you were neither the SK or Vig, why are you posting this and making a defense for yourself on why wouldn't be either? 1367

I actually could be wrong on brass. I need to revisit him later this phase (moar content)

I'd rather you do this now since you're already withholding some other thoughts.

[Taly]

And for the record - things getting down to the wire in the game with no obvious scum suspects left around?

Someone who hard pushed Dram AFTER the claim is scum. Because there was no way the lynch was going through after that claim due to all the reasons stated yesterday. So easily within reason that scum took that window to hardpress for Town cred by pushing for Dram to be lynched when it was completely safe to do so.

If I recall correctly that was basically Worst / Inferno / Brass.

So if the game somehow gets to like Day 6 or 7 with maybe 1 Mafia left don't forget this post people.

Wow
the bs in this post is
Just wow

Instead of saying something is BS can you actually refute it?

What's your thinking on

Brass

at the moment?

I'm just openly complaining.

Like, I go into every game hoping to be able to kill people but also not be mafia. It has not often been successful.

I mean, I go into every game with the illusion that most everyone will actually build cases for what they agree or disagree with but it's not often successful.

What is your read on

MOI

and do you think his suspicion/caution with you is unwarranted?

How do you think we should take the

Chickadee

venge-claim?

[Taly]

I am certain TW is scum, now we can move on with the game.

So I'm guessing you believe

TW

is an SK?

What was the second guilty you were talking about?

... I officially hate when a dayphase becomes a claim-city.

[Taly]

ugh, damnit

I don't think I have

"too many townreads"

but literally only a fraction of them are working together or think the other is town, and that is partially through role claims and results and even questioning all of that right now is a basket of WIFOM

-_-*...

I don't have obvious scumreads.

I'm going to ISO group starting in

{Sky, Elbirn, xyzzy}

There is a high probability that

xyzzy

and

Hit

were direct counters to the

dramonic

wagon

Also, taking a mental note that

HeWhoSwims

hasn't post yet.

[Taly]

I assume you're not a fan of

"leashing the SK"

strategy?

[Taly]

y'know

VOTE: HitAlt

this is still the right choice

Please spell this out to me as why, because I see no world where

Hit

is an SK, and the likelihood he is scum with

Dram

is very, very unlikely in my eyes.

[Taly]

Big question right now - do we milk the Venge D2 or D3?

Because that'll affect my approach this dayphase.

[Taly]

TW

is not groupscum.

dram's

wincon role PM implies a 3p faction.

[Taly]

How does this confirmatiion message work? And how does this activated BP work exactly?

[Taly]

Fuck subtlety in this game, I'm not getting anywhere.

I think

TW

COULD

be an SK and I think if there's any doubt with

Chick's

alignment - while I think she's town - there's more to gain from her eventual lynch if she shoots scum

I'm only a quarter done with the

xyzzy-Elbirn-Sky

ISO group and I already want to throw up on myself. But they can't all numerically be scum.

The whole

Inferno V MOI

is old, fruitless, and a red herring

And I think the more town bicker about who's scum, what to do, and discuss roles, the more we'll fall down the rabbit hole.

I could vote

Chickadee

if we had a consensus on who she should shoot.
But part of me wants to wait D3 so the lynchpool size is lower.

So unless town magically syncs with reads, I don't see myself voting outside of

HWS-Sky-Elbirn-xyzzy

today.

[Taly]

Jesus christ what a shitshow

[Taly]

Yeah, leashing

TW

regardless seems helpful at the moment, maybe? Idfk.

I have gameplay reason to believe

TW

is just a town vig, because why else would he shoot the person he wanted dead even after a claim? He was risking his neck for scrutiny if he was wrong and I don't think SK is that ballsy, usually.

Maybe I'm reading too much into

Dram's

wincon...?

This is my general thought process on

TW

.

IF SOMEONE HAS A CC ON TW SHOOTING DRAMONIC, THEN CLAIM IT.

[Taly]

What are your reads on

Elbirn, xyzzy, and Sky

at the moment?

I'll post what I've been on/off typing about the ISO group tonight.

[Taly]

Guys mentally prepare yourselves very soon

I'm up to 3 miniature wallposts out of analyzing an ISO group

but I'm finding A LOT of clarity in my reads.

And I'm not doing the quote-by-quote thing... I'm doing post-links for comprehension.

[Taly]

And I'm not doing the quote-by-quote thing... I'm doing post-links for comprehension.

I'd prefer the former ngl.
I won't do the click-links. lol

pedit: I DIDNT MEAN ACTUALLY KINSLAYING. I MEANT CLAIMING THE KILL TO PRETEND TO BE A VIG

This better not be a reason to AVOID reading my posts

[Taly]

As an out of game aside Taly the longer you post the less impact it has, be concise direct and to the point. Unless you're dropping like an eddie cane monster case wall on one person.

I mean, I kind of am.

I'm casing against 2 scumreads and justifying a townread all at once, outlining my thoughts in a chronological manner according to their posts.

I'm also pointing out things said and done in the posts, alongside giving some of my individual commentary.

[Taly]

And I know that long posts lose impact

That's why I'm posting more frequently with smaller posts now

But I can't overlook details that can be important

[Taly]

ISO Group - Xyzzy, Sky, Elbirn ((First 600 Posts))

I don't know why

Elbirn

pushed the entrance that he's scum 22 and 79 in hindsight.
Also, him asking

Inferno

why he isn't voting him in light of this feels a bit off 84

I don't get

xyzzy's

112 where he townreads

Elbirn

but proceeds to point out why

Elbirn's

scumread is town and votes

Rask

with confidence that he's scum.

115

Sky

agrees with

xyzzy's

assessment, but goes further and says that

Rask

is LAMIST...
125

Elbrn

points out that this buzzword is unhelpful but that doesn't factor in his read or make him question

Sky

.

232

Elbirn

expresses he doesn't understand how

Rask

was posting well as

TW

said, but then turns around and votes

Gustavo

233 after townreading

Inferno

.

Literally nothing for either 3 of them for 200 posts.
423 is basically

xyzzy

realizing just how low his content is.

464

Sky

re-evaluates

Rask

and townreads

Brass, Elbirn, MOI

while questioning the

Gustavo

scumread.

474 is where

Xyzzy

gives his thoughts on posts that were 200+ POSTS AGO.

-

Like

Sky

, he reiterates how

Rask's

entrance is unlikely to be town, but minimizes

Elbirn's

self-vote as a throwaway joke with little ground.

-

Says

Brass, MOI, Inferno

and

profii

are town to an extent

-

States that

Gustavo (Andrius slot)

is a scumpost but doesn't elaborate or push it.

507

Elbirn

literally keeps up this stance with

Inferno

of

"now outline and shout to everyone why I'm scum"

without actually trying to understand why the scumread is there or looking into

Inferno's

motives for it... Does not give anything worthwhile when

Dram

is mentioned.

...eww.

514 Literally

Sky

is doing what

Elbirn

is in a different way - deflecting from the scumreads on her without actually evaluating them. Takes it a step further to distance herself and invalidate the reads on 515 without explaining why.
527

Sky

states that it's difficult to gamesolve with the game content, but doesn't ask questions or try to resolve that issue.
528 With really no other prompt

Sky

brings up that she wasn't fond of

Dave

and

Chickadee

's responses and says they haven't posted content...
...while this is likely true at the time, I'm of the opinion is that she posted this to strengthen her previous two posts in why scumreading her is not effective.

569 is another

Xyzzy

post-by-post link on things that aren't fully caught up to the game yet, but he IS showing consistent read progression.

-

Townreads

Rask, HeWhoSwims, Dave (my slot)

-

Asks

Sky

about her townread on

Elbirn

((townpoints to

xyzzy

here))

-

Asks

Chick

on her thoughts of the gamestate and her reads.

580

Elbirn

brings up an argument for

Chickadee

-scum based off her gameplay to

Flubb

-

Never votes

Chickadee

-

Again, stings at

Inferno's

read of him by saying it's weaksauce but doing nothing about it.
This post just feels like it was made to create doubt and muddy the game.
583 Is an expansion of this thought, but where was the follow-up?

586 and 587 is

Sky

defending her townread on

Elbirn

and brings up her scumreads...
Where's her vote on any of them?

Early Assessment:

Unlike

Sky

and

Elbirn

who diverts attention from reads on them,

Xyzzy

is not only showing his reads and elaborates by going post-to-post, but he's also ENGAGING with people he suspects in a manner of understanding them.

Notes-

Elbirn

never followed up on his

Gustavo

read or really, his

Chickadee

read either.

Sky

is almost virtually parroting people's reads who aren't being suspected, this was more true before she explained her townreads, though.

Xyzzy

feels lynchbaity at the moment, even early in this game.

[Taly]

ISO Group Xyzzy, Sky, Elbirn ((600-900 Post Number))

596 is another

Xyzzy

post and the more I read him, the better I'm starting to feel about his alignment. Let's deduce facts here. He's also up-to-date with posts now.

-

Brings up how

Flub's

response isn't good but elabroates on why it isn't.

-

Isn't a fan of a

Hit

post, and explains why.

-

Reverses on his

Inferno

townread but shows the multiple posts that led him to this thought.

-

Townreads

Sky, Andrius, Dave (my slot)

-

States that a post can seem bussy between

Dram-Inferno

, something to note.

625

Elbirn

disregards talking about his scumreads, and to hell with whoever he's townreading, but he's openly giving a reality on how

Hit

is scum but doesn't act on that.
627

Elbirn

votes

Hit

for lackluster posts but provides even more lackluster reasoning imo. What about his previous scumreads on

Chick

and the

Andrius

slot?
629 Seems confused by something

xyzzy

said...?
636 Drops his push on

Hit

, and pretty much votes me because I said my slot was town and that made me feel better about meta-reading

Dave

in the future...

655 and 657 it is VERY unclear who

Elbirn

is talking about here. Even he was talking about

Hit

, I don't feel to keen on saying someone's posts are

"nonsensical babble"

718 Oh look,

Sky's

posting a scumread on

Hit

while asking me questions.
Didn't she already say she felt

Dave (my slot

was scum, alongside

Flub

and

Chickadee

earlier??? If I'm misreading? I don't know where her reads are at and her vote's not following it since it's not being used.

736

Xyzzy

expresses his dislike for

Hit's

posting again.

767

Sky

votes

Hit

out of her presumably multiple suspects because...

Hit's

becoming the playerlist's public enemy?
If she really thought

Hit

were scum, why is she voting him for

"pressure"

?

With this... I kind of feel like

Hit

was intended to be a counterwagon to town-

Flub

. 769, 770, and 774 is her saying that she doesn't want votes on him prior to a response.

Xyzzy

follows suit on

Hit

wagon with 781 and 781, but he's actually providing reason to his insights, so it's easier following him.

794 and 795

Elbirn

finally decides that

Hit

is playing poorly and not scum without reasoning... and says he'll probably change his mind again tomorrow, so his post is effectively useless, as was his read originally. He also points out once again on why people are townreading him, but he doesn't confront an individual. It just sounds like there's no real reason for him to be townread, and he knows it.
But he doesn't do anything to change that.

801 is

Sky

saying

Hit

is lining up mislynches through his honeypot, but doesn't expand on her individual thoughts on the reads/names he brought up.

((Which were Ausuka, Brassherald, Dave (Me), Chickadee, Sky, The Worst around this time))

852 and 853 is

Sky

focused on people's scumreads on her again, while stating how scummy

Hit's

reads are
...yawn.

Early Assessment:

Xyzzy

is easily the most pro-town out of these 3 as he's actually coherent with his thinking.

Sky

could be town but I'm not looking favorably at her when it comes to associatives with scum and who I think could be scum.

Elbirn

is like a huge ball of dark crimson red because there's nothing in his posts to actually suggest he's town. The motive of

Elbirn/Sky's

posts aren't so oriented in gamesolving... more or less pushing their reads or not doing anything else.

Notes-

Elbirn

hasn't really pushed anyone the entire game aside from refuting those who have suspected or questioned him weakly.

Sky

is on that

"Let's fight

Hit

"

bandwagon, so good to know...

Xyzzy

didn't have much of any suspicion on him even at thos point in the game, so I'm very suspicious of the wagon that was formed on him near EoD1. He seems more likely town based off of this alone.

[Taly]

ISO Group Xyzzy, Sky, Elbirn ((900 To Present))

924 is

Sky

perpetuating that

Flub's

response to me is not good.

Sky

gives reads in 927 but they're vague and don't really help anyone decipher why she comes to her conclusions.

930

Xyzzy

giving

HeWhoSwims

, a townread, the benefit of the doubt actually rings to me as natural.

Not fond of the follow up 931, why is bad to want to lynch someone's scumleans?

Sky

seems to have little stated reasoning behind her scumreads but

Sky

has PLENTY of people in her

"null or IDK"

list.

965 - I don't quite get this post from a

Sky-Dram

SvS POV, it just seems like she's adding to the suspicion on him here.

981 The only reason

Sky

has for justifying her votes and scumreads is something being

"flaily"

like it's supposed to be this elabroate case when in reality she's not doing anything to ratify her thoughts.
983

Sky

FINALLY expands on what

"flaily"

means to her, but then also talks about it being odd that

Hit

is pushing her and

Dram

, and while it IS true technically...
...Why is

Sky

concerned about

Hit's

read on

Dram

and not

Hit's

read on the MANY other people he's suspected, including her other townreads like

Brass

and etc.

I can see THIS post being a

Sky-Dram

SvS associative.

1000

Elbirn's

alive and weakly dismisses

Flubb

again.
1031

Elbirn

never follows up with

Sky

replying to him, she doesn't explain about how

Gustavo (Andrius slot)

was a towny-reaction to pressure where

Flub and Hit's

were not.
1071 Weak townread on me based off

Elbirn

writing me off as emotional...
1073

Elbirn

calls for a flashwagon on

Xyzzy

out of the blue and to say that

Xyzzy

has been fluffposting in this game makes me question if he's actually reading it.

Elbirn

also doesn't pay attention to the

dram, Hit, or Flubb

wagon here.
1079

Elbirn

is taking more shots at

Inferno

becuase why not?

I don't know why

Elbirn, Sky

are collectively townreading me as I was pushing

Dram

when nobody was liking that wagon, it feels a bit fake.

Sky

is townreading both

Xyzzy

and

Elbirn

1087 and 1088 even in light of

Xyzzy's

post 1086 which didn't do anything.

The next several posts in the ISO is literally

Elbirn

having more problems with

Inferno's

but never doing anything about it.

Post-claim, and etc. this ends in

Sky

and

Elbirn

voting

Flub

in 1266 and 1268 very close between each other. With neither of them questioning this, despite

Sky's

game-long townread on

Elbirn

for not much new reasoning, and

Elbirn

gut scumreading

Sky

but never saying anytihng else about it... this is their EoD1 votes.

Elbirn

doesn't defend his townread on me or his other reads

Flub

commented on in 1302 and 1317
Instead, he entertains the reality on why we aren't linked together... feels like it's to muddy the waters on

Flubb's

iffy EoD reads even more unclear.

Conclusion:

With

Xyzzy

being the only person to post D2, I feel much better that he's town.

Sky-Elbirn

are by far likely associatives to

Dram

, and I'd readily believe a

Dram-Sky-Elbirn

scumteam over

Dram-HeWhoSwims-???

or

Dram-Xyzzy-???

scumteam easily. The

Xyzzy

flashwagon felt scum-engineered and fake on

Elbirn's

behalf, and the fact that

Elbirn

and

Sky

have had opposing reads most of the day without ever pushing the other - but ALSO voting to lynch

Flub

together - is EXTREMELY suspect.

Notes-

Xyzzy

and

Hit

wagons are most definitely town counterwagons in my eyes.

Sky-Elbirn

haven't posted, since they can no longer safely do their whole

"let's townread but not agree on anything!"

charade.

If

Elbirn

flips scum,

Sky

is extremely likely the final scummy here.

VOTE: Elbirn

[Taly]

I mean, 3 person scumteam isn't unusual for 17-18p.

And with the chance of an SK or 3p being here, I'm think 3p scum is MORE likely at the moment.

At the very least, I just think

Elbirn

and

Sky

have a huge associative argument together and with

Dram

[Taly]

I'll read him indvidually tomorrow and see how it works with my general reads atm, I'm a bit burnt out.

I don't see anything that explicitly points to scum, but not much to point to town.

[Taly]

[Taly]

TW

Why is

Hit

more likely scum and/or a better lynch than

Elbirn

or

Sky

?

Also is

Hit

an alt?
If so is he

OnTheMark

?

[Taly]

Also

If we have 5 scum, we are probably looking at a 3p role, OR a traitor, OR a negative utility Mafia role, potentially.

Because that means this is 12:5 which holy fuck

But this is ALL I'm going to say about 5 non-town players UNLESS we are in that situation.

[Taly]

TW

I mean yeah

Hit

did a really shady ass thing in pulling your teeth for the claim and that makes me second guess him to a degree.

But I want to powerlynch useless players who have huge associations to

Dram

and let all these claims sort themselves out

Yet up until your claim happening

TW

, I couldn't see a straightforward reality where you were town and i am no longer suspicious of a few people right now because of said claim.

And on top of the invest claim, I don't think lynching

Hit

is optimal at the moment.

Id much rather see how his next result works IF the Mafia doesn't shoot him because he's basically willingly put a bullseye on his head if he is town.

But you were correct on

Dram

being a scum PR, so I'm open to hearing how

Hit

is scum PR as well

[Taly]

Funny that

Sky

continued with saying we all post too much while not even acknowledging my whole assessment post or mention a read on me, but then votes

Elbirn

But meh, what do I know.

[Taly]

I appoint taly as grand VCA chancellor with every third pagetop as a mandated bulletin.

I would honestly do this.

But I'm curious

Rask

, what do you think of

Sky

and her vote at the moment?

i wish i knew how to meta

I mean, you said you have reasons to believe I'm town.

You seem to be in the right direction.

[Taly]

@Taly: Your assessment on Elbirn/xyzzy is good hence the parrotting

Your assessment on me not so much but w/e

You casting suspicion on at least 4 people but vote for the person I associated you with is a bit interesting

but w/e, right?

[Taly]

The vote itself I still feel as it did at the time as a bit over the top ("DELETED DELETED DELETED") and unfortunately thats a scumtheatre tendency, though as a reaction to being hardlocked as scum based on predecessor as kind of BS to experience maybe.

For what my self-meta asssessment and word is worth; I would've voted

Dram

much more quickly or not at all if we were partnered. I was the 2nd vote on his wagon, so I don't think I would've put a scumbuddy strong PR in the lynch path close to EoD1.

I think people have a false perception that I'm emotional or erratic, and that rules my decisions in a game.

I can be an intense person, and passionate even in Mafia.

But I was very frustrated with

Dram

scumreading me based off my predecessor and I'm willing to admit my own reasoning for scumreading

Dram

was one-sided because of how thoroughly I disliked his approach to me.

I don't like being dismissed, and I do believe his approach was scum-indicative in my experience.

And if

Dram

flipped town, I wouldn't have felt guilty for pushing him.

[Taly]

This is the point of the game where I want the playerlist to get on my level and then I'm afraid that I'm posting too much and drowning out the thread.

[Taly]

Where is elbirn at right now?

Probably waiting for his lynch because he's not sure how to safely refute a valid case that leads to a correct conclusion.

Sky's

posting, while I appreciate her effort, has only strengthened my scumread on her and

Elbirn

.

Low-key, I feel like people who are withholding a read on me think they wouldn't need to voice a read on me because I'm an NK target, but that could be a stretch.

I'm looking into

HeWhoSwims'

ISO, and I'm about 1/3rd the way done with him, but atm he doesn't ping me as scum, or at least not obvious scum.

[Taly]

The biggest reason I'd lynch

Chickadee

is to eliminate potential late-game WIFOM and milk a vengekill.

But having a vengekill for town is only useful if it hits scum.

Hitting scum right now is somewhat of a guessing game in light of interactions, conflicts, and claims.

So

LYNCHING

scum before

SHOOTING

other potential scum is a much better use of gamesolving right now. This method also helps us narrow down and specify on a lynchpool.

Hence why I'm sticking to

Elbirn

unless there's a literal guilty claim.

But even then, I'm weary of anyone claiming a guilty at this point in the dayphase.

[Taly]

TW

being a potential SK is low priority right now. There's no CC, I'd even question a CC at the moment, and he

did

shoot a scum PR with an argument to say he's town to have done it.

If

TW

were solo scum, his gameplay is greatly up for later scrutiny or restriction based off the town KNOWING he has a killing role.

Scum would likely want him dead, regardless of his alignment. I'm not doing the Mafia's dirty work.

So I'm not focused on

TW

right now.

[Taly]

Hit

being scum has crossed my mind

But I have multiple people I strongly feel are scum

OR

better lynch options, and there

IS

a town-case for

Hit

[Taly]

Inferno's

messy

But it's town-messy, if that makes sense.

[Taly]

D (MagnaofIllusion, Andrius, xyzzy) - Geriatric/Other

Lynchbait, based strongly off the gamestate

[Taly]

ISO - HeWhoSwims ((Him In The First 500 Posts))

118 Shows a depth of thought that I don't think comes from scum usually in a game.

-

He explains why he likes

Inferno's

stance in RVS

-

Discusses a reality where

Elbirn's

entrance could give a scum-benefit, something to note
119 Asks a question and

Sky

answers after that, doesn't seem noteworthy imo.

HeWhoSwims

gives a somewhat neutral perspective on

Rask's

entrance 143

But he further iterates how scum would likely JUMP onto

Rask

for his entrance in 163

-

He's aware of scum's potential motives but he doesn't forecast what scum would do in depth

-

With bringing up

Profii

here, it feels like he's also willing to see this from a town perspective because he's not pushing him

HeWhoSwims

post just seems to go against what he believes would be a potential scum-agenda.

173 and 175 is him bringing up

Gustavo

and saying that

TW's

fluffposting isn't really NAI for him, moving on...

193 Is basically trying to get a more articulate response on

TW

from

Brass

in my eyes.

278 This is another post that makes me think

HeWhoSwims

is town, if not a very competent scum.

-

Brings up, probably from his own experience, of how

Gustavo

works D1

-

Tells

Gustavo

upfront about his inconsistency, but doesn't drive that as a central point to call him scum like other people have

HeWhoSwims

here seems like someone who's looking between the lines of conflict in the game and trying to discern what's scum-indicative or not, which I think is a town trait, usually.
279 This mentality is expanded on when he tells

Elbirn

about his own approach to 1v1s. Unlike

Elbirn

, I like that he has his own structured view of how he sees 1v1s, whereas

Elbirn's

question here feels open-ended and geared towards driving a reaction from someone on how they SHOULD feel about a 1v1.

I think

Elbirn-HeWhoSwims

is unlikely at the moment, and in same breath,

Sky-HeWhoSwims

.

283 is when

HeWhoSwims

calls

Inferno

on his unhelpful stance over

Gustavo

, notice how he's not discrediting, dismissing, or shading

Inferno

unlike someone I'm voting right now?
I'm also assuming that his reply to

Brass

indicates that he townreads him to a degree.
287 is yet another post that replies to

Gustavo

about the suspicion on him but isn't jumping on that bandwagon or really buying into it.

343 This post is an agreement with

Ausuka

that involves

HeWhoSwims

stating that neither

profii

or

Rask's

posts/entrances were scummy.
In contrast to

Elbirn-Sky-Xyzzy

taking a disliking for

Rask's

entrance, and

Sky's

longer-term vote on

profii

, I feel like this post shows that

HeWhoSwims

is looking deeper into people's motives for votes and is willing to place a stance that contradicts other players' notion, but in a way that actually outlines his thinking.

This is the opposite trend I'm finding with my scumreads in this game.

I also like that he points out self-votes are bad to

Gustavo

because they are abysmal, and while town or scum can say this, I like that this is brought up.

344 Agrees with

Rask

about

Dram's

posting on

Inferno

being off... I don't think a scumbuddy would do this?

473 Reinforces his stance on

Gustavo

Early Assessment:

Mostly in his earlier posts, I don't see any red flags. I think it's normal for town to take a passive approach earlier in the day. While I don't think this strongly town-indicatives

HeWhoSwims

, he's not scummy to me here. He's also very unlikely to be associated with

Elbirn-Sky

just by his own reads and progression.

Notes-

-

Has had interactions with

Elbirn-Sky

but not

Dram

so far, those interactions don't seem fabricated.

-

HeWhoSwims'

uncertainty on

TW

looks natural considering that it's almost impossible that

TW

is groupscum.

[Taly]

ISO - HeWhoSwims ((From Posts 500 to Present))

524 Finally a higher-content post.

-

Likes

Hit's

post where he votes

Sky

-

Brings a

GREAT

point of

Sky

-scum to

Brass

... If

Brass

can't find anything memorable about

Sky's

posts, that

COULD

be exactly what makes them scum based off approach.

-

Asks

Sky

about why she thinks

Dave-Chick

are scum to her
This is the opposite approach

Elbirn-Sky-Dram

took with their scumreads where these 3 ignored them,

HeWhoSwims

, while he hasn't provided a lot of his own sole content, has actually been gauging content from others, even people he believes who are scum.

668 Is a readspost from him.

-

Townreads

Inferno and Brass

to an extent.

-

Seems to be waiting for

TW

to get more involved as I was D1.

-

Suspects

Dram, Sky, Chick

...All in all, I think these were pretty strong reads, they're close to what I have now.
After reading the thread more, ISOing, and being involved with the playerlist, I have a better understanding of his posts toward me in 697 and 742

831

HeWhoSwims

replies to

Rask's

question.

-

Elaborates on his scumread on

Dave/Me

slot, and says that

TW, Chick, Me

are a pool on

Flub

with potential scum in it.

Chick

for her lack of engagement - is an individual read he expands on here.

-

Still isn't fond of

Dram's

which is both reasonable and something I don't think a scumbuddy would point out.

-

Dislikes some of

Hit's

posting and reiterates his

Sky

scumread.
This post is full of reads and a response that articulates his view of the gamestate which I think is pretty astute and something people have overlooked.
832 While I don't like how open-ended his reads are EoD1, this

"would vote"

list aligns with his stated scumreads.

848 Probably the one post I dislike from

HeWhoSwims

, just feels like he's pushing back on

Hit's

assessment over peoples reads involving him.
850 L-3's

Hit

.

1012 Still has a larger lynchpool but it makes more sense.

Question to HeWhoSwims: In this post, do you think Elbirn pointed out Sky's sheepy scumreads in order to make distance between them?

1120

HeWhoSwims

responds to my reply and expands on

Chick

a bit more, and why he would vote there.

-

L-4's

Dramonic

and even notes this...
....yeah not seeing him as scum with

Dram

.

OK actually, 1197 and 1198 COULD be associatives, but I'm not too keen here.

-

There was a valid reason to NOT lynch

Dram

after his claim[/b].

-

HeWhoSwims

votes

Hit

but not

Sky

... because there's no wagon?? Egh.
I don't like the look of this, but this WAS essential EoD1 so I can't blame him here.

His D2 posts have just been him saying he wants to catch-up because the game pace just kicked it up a notch with

Dram's

death.

Early Assessment:

Any iffy or borderline-scummy post that

HeWhoSwims

makes, I can see town rationale for it. With

{Xyzzy-Dram-Flub-Hit}

all being wagoned closer to EoD1, and with other people being suspected consistently throughout that dayhase:

{Sky, Taly, Chickadee, TW}

but WEREN'T wagoned EoD1, I can say the gamestate was heavily in scum's favor. Town was in a chaotic state, and I think a push on

HeWhoSwims

because of his later D1 posts would be perpetuating this. Looking at him as a whole, I think he's more likely town right now.

Notes-

-

By no means is

HeWhoSwims

locktown to me, but there's plenty of better lynch options IMO.

-

If

Elbirn

AND/OR

Sky

flip scum, I think that'll point to

HeWhoSwims

-town.

[Taly]

Elbirn

is at L-3

Can we get him to L-0?

[Taly]

I

haven't

heard Town say they'd be

"fine with being a mislynch"

in a game where Town wins.

I

have

heard Scum say they'd be

"fine with being a mislynch"

in a game that Town wins.

So I'm not swayed by

Sky's

recent posting over her alignment.

I will say that 1808 is a good reminder for me to ISO

profii

individually, I'll probably get to that tomorrow if everyone's too slow to cast a vote on

Elbirn

.

[Taly]

TW

, I thought you'd be trying harder to convince me you are a Town Vig at this point in the game.

[Taly]

It's D2. I no longer have gut reads in this game.

But some of them are still fickle, and you haven't talked about your reads much in this dayphase.

So I really can't gauge what's going through your head.

[Taly]

I'll take that at face value rn then.

[Taly]

k ily <3

[Taly]

I'll like the gamestate more when we've got 2 scum dead.

[Taly]

L-2

[Taly]

Someone talk to me about

Andrius

and

MOI

[Taly]

I'll be doing a catch-up today ... my life is busy and this thread is too active so probably I'm just going to end up doing a State of the Game post unless there are specific questions I have missed in my brief phone skimming.

1) Evaluate the

Elbirn

wagon
2) What are your thoughts on my assessments regarding

Elbirn/Sky/xyzzy/HeWhoSwims

?

[Taly]

[Taly]

I highly doubt

Ausuka

is scum, and I like her rationale in 1846 because it seems not only sound judgment for a Town PR but she's furthering her own perception in the game rather than actually using her results or role to incriminate or doubtcast someone.

Ausuka's

the only person I'm familiar with in this game that I have a relatively strong townread on.

Everyone else that I'm familiar with... I'm going to need to see some flips and results before I make a concrete judgment.

I'd have several more scumreads right now if it weren't for claims. Possibly more scumreads than there are scum in this game, actually... Which is both a good and bad thing.

[Taly]

The

Quackers

Ritz thing was an inside joke between

TW

and I It wasn't softing or alluding to any vig. I've posted that pic before in other games and have talked about

[Taly]

And how does that pic even imply that I know anything about

TW's

role?

The

"Now With Extra Bullets"

joke was referring to how I've been scum in several games where

TW

townread me, and how I've NKed his ass before XD

[Taly]

I'm sorry

Brass

, just read that

[Taly]

See infernos post - for everyone not in on the joke it was how to soft a vig 101



Now TW is claiming vig when he could be a potential SK- see how that is paranoia inducing ?

Only for town with poor reads and the scum that'd take advantage of them for it.

And I thought

Inferno's

post was directed at me? I didn't take it seriously because I didn't see the connection.

In anyway, I wouldn't soft shit especially D1, usually I crumb using a bolded code or I just outright claim.

And I don't think

TW

would even be allowed to shoot his scumbuddy

Dram

, or even would since he was a strong scum PR.

[Taly]

There's more people posting but I want more people reading my ISO and ISO assessment on others

[Taly]

guess I can get on board with Elbirn if that’s what everyone wants to do and I’m taking the risk that if he flips scum you all bus me and inno Sky

Like, I don't see a probable reality of this happening

[Taly]

I forgot

What was this pairing role thing?

Andrius

?

The claims have gotten me a bit confused

[Taly]

The

Quackers

Ritz thing was an inside joke between

TW

and I It wasn't softing or alluding to any vig. I've posted that pic before in other games and have talked about

confirm, the "extra bullets" thing is an allusion to the fact Taly pumped me full of bullets n1 in the first game we played together.

dont think i wont do it again ho

[Taly]

But

Magna

can't fruit vend tonight, so what's the relevance of this discussion right now?

[Taly]

OK get that sorted and then can we stop talking about roles until D3 at least?

[Taly]

Are people even reading my posts?

Didn't get to

profii

today but he's next on my ISO list

[Taly]

give me pagetop please

[Taly]

now

[Taly]

1725 to 1727 - My ISO group on

Xyzzy, Sky, Elbirn

, followed by my case/vote on

Elbirn

1805 to 1806 - ISO on

HeWhoSwims

and why I don't think he's a good lynch option

My posts on

TW, Chick, Hit, and Inferno

right now are in my ISO and a few pages back

Elbirn

is at L-2 with vote order being:

Rask, Taly, Sky, TW, Inferno, xyzzy

[Taly]

Confirming it is L-1, please state intent to hammer and do not hammer until we have

SEVERAL

people caught up

I find it notable that I asked you to do 1 thing a few pages back - please summarise what made you lynch Elbirn over Skygazer - and you managed to respond to all the unimportant parts of my last few posts except the bit I’m really interested in

That is [one of] the scum tell you caught me on in that other game, I’m sure you remember... I really want to vote & flip Elbirn to prove a point but that also seems stupid

What post was this question in?

Why Elbirn Is My Push For A Lynch Today

1)

If you read my assessment in depth, you'd see there were simply more reasons for me to think

Elbirn

was scum over

Sky

based off play, and not solely dictated off associative.

2) Elbirn

has not been nearly as engaged or active as

Sky

.

3) Elbirn

has actively posted with a motive I can only see as someone who's trying to either cast uncertainty on players, or push for a lynch agenda that doesn't align with solving the game. Take the

xyzzy

push for example.

4)

Has had really ill interactions with

Flub

prior to his lynch and has been very dismissive of his posts who flipped town, alongside

Inferno's

, who I feel is very likely town.

5)

He's more keen on deflecting scumreads than

Sky

in a sense, he questions people a lot on the townreads on him, but he doesn't make assertions on how that's AI to another person. It feels strongly like he doesn't believe he's town or is trying to defend for its existence when his alignment is brought up.

6) Elbirn

hasn't provided much of any content, and it can be argued

Sky

has generally done more.

7)

Probably my weakest reason, but to a degree,

Elbirn

is a better lynch because other people feel he's very likely scum as opposed to potentially

Sky

.

I just feel

Elbirn's

a better lynch for the gamestate, acquiring flip info., and probability of actually being scum. I can go in depth and link posts of his and mine that support why I want this lynch now if you need me to.

But if I could, then

Elbirn-Sky

would both eat rope today.

[Taly]

My gut is telling me that this wagon is too easy, however we’ve just had the first bottler in TW there and I don’t think we need to be patronised with the big font and L-1 warning- if you are so assured in your case then why are you so bothered about a lol hammer

Because multiple people still need to post, and the fact that this wagon has had no resistance is what makes me want people to post more.

Just because I strongly scumread and am hardpushing for that lynch on

Elbirn

doesn't mean everything else is thrown out of the window to me

[Taly]

Why do you care about people being caught up if you caught scum?

1)

It helps bring up discussion that can be referenced for later gamesolving, it's practical and helpful for the town to be in sync and work cohesively out of the respect that people are caught up and on the same page.

2)

Even when I'm confident that I caught scum, I still acknowledge the SLIGHT possibility in where I'm wrong, having a speedlynch especially when we have 11 days left is definitely play that favors scum in my eyes.

3) Scum would NOT want players to catch up on the game if they see a lynch about to happen, usually. Regardless of the alignment of the person. It benefits scum when town has less to work on in a game.

But the most pressing reason why?

Because I know I'd become pissy if I NEEDED to catch up, and I didn't get that chance.

I really disliked

Hit's

hammer when I was wanting to put my readslist up. If we didn't have only 8 hours left in the dayphase AND if

Hit

didn't claim an invest role, I'd be on his ass more right now.

I empathize with why people want to catchup, and I'm not going to let my tunnel cloud my view of that.

On a scale of 1-10 how confident are you in eibirn flipping red?

Very, very confident. Like a 9. Your point?

If you are near the top of that scale removing scum is much more important than people being caught up

I get where you're coming from, and yes, removing scum IS top priority.

But WHY should that automatically dismiss other priorities when it shouldn't need to? We have a lot of time left in this dayphase, and this game HAS moved in a VERY fast direction since daystart.

So yeah, I'm not losing focus on my

Elbirn

scumread and lynching scum by giving others the opportunity to vote/discuss/post.

I'm giving town and myself the advantage through more content to help articulate reads.

I think it’s good that we have seen people remove themselves from the wagon at this critical point- especially with the question mark over the fruit vendors so handy to have Rask in there anyway

Remove who from what wagon again? The only major wagon this dayphase so far has been

Elbirn

[Taly]

profii

can you walk me through your thinking on your

Elbirn to L-1

vote?

Because your posts heavily imply that you haven't read my ISO assessments in depth.

Yet you seem completely fine with the

Elbirn

under the pretense of what

I

have to say about it.

[Taly]

omg we're twinning

rask <3

[Taly]

I agree to the invest on

Sky

I don't know about the

profii

kill just yet, and I don't know if leashing

TW

or forcing him to out his NK is smart right now

[Taly]

Taly what do you think scum are doing rn?

Depends on

Elbirn's

alignment, mostly.

But since I think he's scum, I'd say his partner(s) have probably already bussed him given there's no resistance to the lynch and he doesn't care.

I think bussing scum would do their best to deflect attention on others or cast suspicion on other people while they're making their vote.

I'm giving a nice, big eye to people who are shifting their votes.

That doesn't mean I suspect everyone who changes their vote right now, but I'm internally prying into the motives of why someone would make a vote right now, whether it's for

Elbirn

or anyone else.

Hence why I'm not extremely crazy about ending the day, especially with as much time as we have, AND with about 4+ people needing to read up.

[Taly]

Yeah I'm not a fanI think detective pinning suffers if public as scum will just send someone else?

This.

Upon more thought, I agree with this sentiment as well.

[Taly]

I could be wrong about the bussing, but I don't really know what else scum would do given the gamestate

I kind of feel like I'm one of the only people making cases here.

[Taly]

I kind of feel like I'm one of the only people making cases here.

and.....

I think I'm an easy person to jump behind.

-

I push hard.

-

Not many people seem confident I'm town.

So in a scum narrative in a game such as this - like in D1 - I'm an easy person to rally against.

I kind of feel like I'm one of the only people making cases here.

Admittedly I'm stalling so we don't speedlynch since I *need* Magna and Ausuka in here and he gets back Monday. Like, they're potentially two of our biggest town roles and we need them around. (Also I need my Lucca around while I'm Chrono.)

And I'm unsuccessfully fighting the urge to let this be a POE game.

Understandable.

[Taly]

I feel better about

Andrius

being town right now

[Taly]

I'm going to be salty AF if

Elbirn

replaces out and we are graced with a townier scumplayer.

I've lost games due to scum replacing out and making a LOT of discussion in a game ineffective.

[Taly]

How To Bother Taly

1)

Case-less tunnels.

2)

Most buzzwords.

3)

Dismissing a question or argument.

4)

His own scumreads replacing out.

5)

Self-votes.

[Taly]

s me.
MoI has claimed Loyal oddnight FV.
Ausuka has always only claimed Loyal FV.
Doesn’t anyone else find this discrepancy odd?

If/when a mechanical inconsistency or lie is caught later in the game.

I'm going to lower my post frequency until people like

MOI, Ausuka, profii, Brass, and Chickadee

catchup and read game in depth.

[Taly]

And

Elbirn

too...

[Taly]

Yeah, them too

As for the bolding, I explained this in depth in the SUPP Feedback thread.

viewtopic.php?f=86&t=76586&start=250

The bolded users have nothing to do with being distinct. They help me organize and keep track of my thoughts.

Like with any other social site; you can @ or link people to your post like a mention. That's the point behind the bolding. It's me mentioning someone's user so they can realize that I'm talking to or about them, and that I'd most certainly want to talk to them. It's being forward with my intentions.

In Mafia, I use this to force people to spew content. Obviously, between the occasional wallposts I make and the nature of the game itself; it can be hard navigating through what there is to respond to, or information that you might've missed. When I bold names, this problem is greatly alleviated. It also guides people to see my POV.

In SE, OK, I admit, this is more out of habit. But the same rule applies... If I don't quote someone directly, and I type their name, then in some form, I want THEM to know I'm mentioning them.

It has nothing to do with what people think on a social level.
Bolding names helps me, and often the person I'm talking to.

So mission accomplished there, and I really don't care too much if people have a problem with that. If it's a big deal, I'd respect people to tell or ask me up front and I'll give them an explanation. It's not out of the intent of saying: "hey, look I'm different!"

I'm doing what helps me.

But you get points for curiosity

Rask

, other people tend to give me shit for bolding and I just give 0 fucks.

[Taly]

Inferno

can you please elaborate on your scumread over

MOI

and

Andrius

because I really don't think the whole "

this scumpair"

OR

"this scumpair"

is an effective approach to the game.

I'm honestly still holding out until a new person comes into the

Elbirn

slot, I'm pretty agitated with the replace out, but I don't blame

Elbirn

as a person for it. I just think replacing out when heavily scumread is a very, very pro-scum thing to do.

This is a big reinforcement on why I think you're jumping on pushes for a lynch agenda rather than gamesolving.

[Taly]

I'm ok with lynching Elbirn if that's where the group is going. I had a good town read on Elbirn, but with the Dram flip, I'm accepting that my reads this game are not on point.

I also really like the profii wagon. I would def go there.

Minimizing your own reads because you were wrong once is ALSO not an effective approach to the game for town.

[Taly]

This is a big reinforcement on why I think you're jumping on pushes for a lynch agenda rather than gamesolving.

I can meme and gamesolve. What are your thoughts about my case on profii?

OK I'll dive into this

VOTE: profii

i like this counterwagon

don't like how profii continuously throws shade at me and taly yet is so ready to jump on to the elbirn wagon and place it at L-1, especially considering how he's showing doubts about elbirn

I can see where

profii

is associated with

Elbirn

due to his odd progression onto the wagon followed by the questioning, but I'm not too keen that scum would really ask much questions or gauge the point of someone's push on a wagon when the lynch was about to happen.

I don't see a straightforward reason to think

profii's

motives for posting were scum, at least not without an answer from mine and

Rask's

questions, which he hasn't responded to yet.

I also feel like

profii

was a perfect counterwagon to

Elbirn

already, since nobody was sure he was town and multiple people were already doubting his posts, so pushing him felt a bit lynchbaity imo.

like, it's possible he knows that elbirn is going to flip town so he's flip flopping and throwing shade at taly and myself to set up future mislynches in the event of an elbirn town flip

I mean, weren't you doing this with these statements?

I can believe that the xyzzy wagon was a counterwagon; I already said there's likely scum on it before and with HitAlt/Chickadee as townreads now I can see Elbirn as scum
xyzzy still likely town esp if elbirn is scum

I can see HWS as scum through PoE

also yall are posting too much

If I had to pick between Ausuka/MoI I'd actually pick MoI as scum at this point.

1760 - The post calling

TW

an SK

okay i'd like to lynch profii tomorrow regardless of the elbirn flip

You put up a lot of possibilities on who could be scum following your vote on

Elbirn

without a lot of justification or push to a concrete conclusion.

And what makes you think

profii

that

knows

Elbirn

could be town? I thought you were strong on

Elbirn

being scum.

What eliminates the possibility of

Profii-Elbirn

being scum-scum?

Which is what I think contradicts your 1943, where you say

profii-Elbirn

are BOTH scum, but it's clear that you still think

TW

is SK but you want to TELL him he should shoot

Elbirn

tonight. 1935, knowing that

TW

is keeping his cards close right now and leashing him won't be a productive way of figuring out his alignment here.

So it just feels like you're pushing away from the

Elbirn

being scum/lynch, but you still want him flipped?

Follow up: if Elbirn and I were to both flip town, who's scum?

Well first off, if you're both town, I'd throw my hands in the air and hope I'm NKed because I'm going to be floored with town's performance this game.

I don't know who I'd think were scum then, tbh. I think it's extremely likely one of you are scum, and I can't accurately assess who WOULD be scum upon seeing your townflips unless I saw the following NKs and role results to help give me direction.

If you're both town, then I'd probably just lynch

TW

to avoid more kills that can endgame town, and because there's a part of me that thinks he could be SK. But I'm not solid on this.

[Taly]

I'm being reminded why I became so frail and a bit bitchy late-D1

Several people are still taking the

"he's gonna sort himself sooner or later"

approach to me and it's frustrating AF

OR, the

deeming I'm scum

approach without reading in depth of my motves or posts

I'll reply soon when I can guarantee I won't scream in caps

[Taly]

No, it's mostly not the conclusions of the reads, it's the reasoning

I don't entirely agree with my predecessor being a factor in reading me at all atm
Not many people are looking at my vote history and wagons for a read, at least I don't think.
I thought people would engage with me more if I wasn't a solid read to them.
Not many people have really cased their scumread on me, and it's usually not elaborate.

Are you talking about profii or MoI with that? I think profii's stance on you is kinda weird and he might be scum for it anyways

Mostly

profii's

but both, I am waiting for

MOI

to read into my ISO assessments, that's something I wished more people would've done.

Also

Chickadee

a little bit in 2049

It just feels weird that people note the content I have but don't come to a solid read.

That... doesn't happen to me a lot. In games that did, I often got mislynched.

I will say I'm probably making a bigger deal out of this than necessary, so I'll keep myself in check and not fall into the pattern I did in D1.

[Taly]

1) Inferno

I don't get your consistent scumread on

MOI

and probably won't until you actually elaborate in depth as to why.

2) MOI

, what makes you feel

Elbirn

is most likely town out of the pool?

3)

Probably going to switch to

Sky

soon with the

Elbirn

replacement... I just never feel it's a great idea to continually push a slot based off a predecessor, despite my reads. Plus, pending an ISO on

Profii

, I'm feeling less favorable about

Sky

associatively at the moemnt.

[Taly]

profii

can you walk me through your thinking on your

Elbirn to L-1

vote?

Because your posts heavily imply that you haven't read my ISO assessments in depth.

Yet you seem completely fine with the

Elbirn

under the pretense of what

I

have to say about it.

Somethzing fishy is going on with the wagon. It’s weird that no one else gets a look in by the time a player gets that close to L-1

That's because scum has probably bussed

Elbrin

when the wagon got traction and nobody who's townread

Elbirn

or has strong reasoning for it has posted that in the thread.

Literally, that's what I've been wanting to hear, and why I wasn't 100% set on the lynch.

Bearing in mind your slot was heavily scum read then replaced out and you are the main wagon driver - I have paranoia

So I'm being scumread STILL off the basis of

Dave

? You're kidding, right?

Then day 2 a LOT of PRs seem to be knocking about scum probably don’t know where they can push safely or not

Honestly, I feel like I've been the ONLY person to push for a lynch or major wagon this dayphase.

Your point doesn't hold strongly in my eyes since there's PLENTY of people that seem iffy about pushing somewhere at all.

Like I am as town, I am tunnely as scum, but not this ballsy.

So maybe Elbirn is scared scum who has just gone awol since their kill failed and they lost a dude and a load of PRs surfaced - though they did lose a PR so I guess they have some too

This reasoning makes little sense to me at all in your later posting, it seems like you're townreading

Elbirn

now and shifting a narrative based off that.

So your case fits, tbh it’s borderline insulting and misrepresentative to say I’ve not read your case - tell me why, if we are reading exactly the same words you are expecting me to come to different conclusions? I feel like you are shading me a bit unfairly there

Yeah, I do think you're not reading my case in depth, OR engaging and asking questions to me about that specifically.

You keep bringing up possibilities around the merit of my case but not actually dive into the reasons and motives behind it. Considering that you L-1'd

Elbirn

, the point of your posts feel like a huge inconsistency because your reads aren't stated off concrete reasoning.

And I do think the pretense of your read on me based off MY predecessor - which was weeks ago, IS unfair here. Followed by you holding me to a standard that you won't follow yourself. You say it's off for me to NOT want a FLASHLYNCH to happen on

Elbirn

but then proceed to L-1 him WHEN you apparently don't believe he's scum, given that you keep associating me to your next scumread like

Elbirn

or

Sky

themselves.

It feels like you're genuinely trying to generate a narrative where I'm scum SOLELY based off of

Elbirn

or

Sky's

flip, DESPITE their alignment, YET you don't push me with a vote because of this.

It feels like you're either:

1)

Bussing a buddy for YOUR credibility.

2)

Trying to chain a lynch YOU don't actually believe is scum.

3)

You are incredibly off with your assessments and your read progression reflects that.

Anyway - it’s a bit of a tricky spot, I think I’ve said before in games I get that feeling in poker where you just call the bet to see what the other dude is holding - so basically feels like a info lynch with a decent chance of hitting scum, failing it hitting scum, I’d guess you look pretty bad for driving it so maybe TW can shoot you in the night which is kinda a worthy trade

Are we reading the same game?

I've stated EXPLICITLY that I lynch off read as a top priority, I just have more reasons to substance to go off of for an

Elbirn

. Now, that's fucking blown up with the reality of a replacement coming in because I need to evaluate their play individually.

My sort of feeling on day 2 is not a great deal has happened because this wagon nearly clicked so fast, therefore our main events are all the PR reveals and then a little CW on me. I guess that makes Elbirn more likely scum if they don’t want to be on that bus

Also you get more excited about l-1 than me

Yeah, why shouldn't I be active with an L-1 looming? That literally drives the game in a new and different direction and requires decent analysis.

You act like this is so far off from me in

Open 712: Elemental Large

.

You act like this is alignment-specific to me.

Furthermore, you keep providing rationale for

Elbirn

-scum but then it doesn't feel like you agree that he's scum? Otherwise, I don't understand your conclusions right now?

[Taly]

I'm roughly at Elbirn ?= Profii > Xyzzy > HeWho > Sky in that last grouping

Profii again please talk about your progression 1948
your response doesn't address my actual concerns

How do you think there's scum in taly/elbirn and don't feel like straightening it out but just eeeeeeh lets lynch elbirn and if town I guess sus taly
I really want to know how you're comfortable going along with taly as so whilst scumreading him

I mainly think there is scum in Taly or Taly is very wrong somehow, but I think Taly isn't that wrong by accident as he is a good player - he has scum caught more before.

OK, I'm going to dissect how off this statement is.

1)

You're reasoning a scumread on me based off MY ACCURACY in a game. Remember how I hardpushed and lynched town a few times in

Open 712: Elemental Large

when NOBODY else was providing a greater, justifiable case?

TheGoldenParadox

,

Kopherald

, and

havingfitz

were casualties because I borderline-tunneled them, whether I was on their EoD-lynch or not.

I MIGHT make good reads as Town -

((like, even though I caught Jay, texcat, and YOU as scum in that game, Profii))

- but I'm not EXEMPT from being wrong. That's another reason why I wasn't wanting an

Elbirn

when more people weren't speaking in the thread.

Your reasoning off this point here alone, doesn't incriminate me.

2)

You assume I'm likely wrong here, but you had rationale for

Elbirn

-scum AND L-1'd him? What the hell? If you think

Elbirn

is town, why don't you actually tell me how you came to that conclusion INDEPENDENT of my ENTIRE case to him, which I thought you said was valid and

"fits"[/b]?

Am I reading the same game,

profii

?

3)

And if you think I'm scum

OR

I'm wrong, then aren't you implying an

Elbirn-Taly

scumduo then? You're not explicitly stating whether my interaction with

Elbirn

is TvS, but if you think he's town and I'M scum

OR

just wrong - but you ARE scumreading me... like wtf?

I'm genuinely confused by your reads here.

I think Talys slot was scummed up by dave and I think Taly is driving an Elbirn mislynch and whilst he has presented a coherent case on Elbirn, my concern is as part of that case he said Sky/Elbirn could be scum, but hey lets go with Elbirn and I'm not really super clear on what made Elbirn > Sky. Then when I ask on a scale of 1-10 Taly doesn't say oh yeah Elbirn is scum - I think Taly is posturing on an inevitable Sky Scum flip by picking on Elbirn's flubber vote and lack of good play on day 1 (sorry elbirn )

Ugh... So a LARGE part of your scumread on me is based off

Dave

? How come you never pushed this D1?

I've made it CLEAR that I wanted an

Elbirn

lynch because I felt he was MORE likely scum based off independent play, and that I would be OK with voting

Sky

.

And that I'd honestly be OK if I had a double-vote and threw rope at both of them and just because I'm feeling STRONG on a lynch being scum doesn't mean I'm not WILLING to hear other people's thoughts before EoD.. Your entire assessment on my actual reads and push here isn't true,.

Not doing this is partially why and how town lost, partially by my hand, in

Open 712: Elemental Large

, I hardpush but then I sometimes don't even try to entertain a town possibility and it bites me in the ass.

If I were scum, I doubt I'd even remotely defend my scumbuddies right now, OR place them as a strong scumread.

I reckon {Sky Taly} scum and elbirn town

seeing as my vote is on elbirn and MoI has voted Sky, seems a sensible time to see if we can get that wagon going

VOTE: Sky

Oh goodie... You hopped on a wagon, you didn't look at ANYONE else's vote for being on it, you look into mine, and you find rationale for ME being scum, alongside my other scumread, WHILE you townread the person I pushed, and YOU hopped on the wagon of.

would still prefer taly but meh - the other weird thing is people are now thinking I am scum linked to elbirn - I voted and people retreated, sure I could be bussing as the wagon nearly gets over the line, but then, why not just hammer if me and Elbirn are scum mates? That link doesn't make sense, people should say either I am scum OR elbirn is scum OR Taly is scum, it doesn't make sense that there is 2 scum in the pool of players here. However, the Sky link does make sense to Taly as he postured that read along with Elbirns I think.

The reasons for you being scum with

Elbirn

is because you gave reasons to scumread and want his lynch but then you 180 on that as if to play devil's advocate without actually evaluating the entire wagon on

Elbirn

.

Your defense of him makes in a S-S interaction, and the whole basis of your townread on him is MY case on him, when NOBODY else interacted with that case.

I'm sort of glad I am a CW to elbirn as it takes some heat off what I really think is a town slot, if it had gone through, then I think it proved my point on Taly which is sort of a means to an end in catching scum-taly.

So this entire time you thought Elbirn was town, and you used your push on him to try and catch me as scum when you had almost no pretense to think I'm scum?

I think I get scum read for playing the probabilities like this and people start saying my play isn't "optimal" in a buzz wordy way, but I have my methods and they work for me so I'll be sound when Taly flips scum

I'm going to feel really vindicated when I flip town this game, whether it's by a lynch, NK, or endgame, holy shit.

[Taly]

Ugh... I'm going to ISO duo

Sky-Profii

tonight or definitely tomorrow... fuck, I wasn't jumping on the

profii

bandwagon because I know you have dig into

profii

more to see his motives, but wow.

I can't conceive some of his posting to be town, and that kind of affects my strongly-set reads.

[Taly]

By all means

profii

, if I'm wrong about anything in the above posts, then ignore all of that and

spell out your read progression to me

[Taly]

Oof... I need help by someone I townread who's playing reasonable right now...

[Taly]

oh btw this game has given me another chance to use this image I made a long time ago

If this is all you have to say, I may have to reevaluate my townread on you.

[Taly]

I've flicked through that wall, Taly you are like the anti-chill

i'll answer later though.

I mean, we both know I can't be chill long-term if I tried.

But seriously, I'm having a lot of difficulty understanding your read on

Elbirn

, me, and

Sky

.

In MY perspective, you went from:

"Let's L-1

Elbirn

and lynch him because he's scum"

to

"he MUST be town because of the wagon on him"

or at least I think????

Because you've put up your own reasons to think

Elbirn

was scum earlier?

With

Sky

, it looks like you went from:

"

Sky's

not the lynch"

to

"I'm going to vote this because it's an associative to my stronger scumread"

And with me, you are like:

"

Taly's

slot is scummed up by

Dave

"
"

Taly's

wrong or scum"
"

Taly's

my main scumread because I associate him with the people HE cased against, and they're people I scumread as well"

Like, there's more reasoning for your scumread on me I'm guessing, but a lot of the reasons you listed are either NAI, or could've EASILY been dispelled if you actually put up a case on why

Elbirn

was town in the first place, or even ENGAGED with my case at all.

It just feels like whenever I respond to you, you focus in on anything that could reinforce your scumread without reading into what I'm talking to you about.

But I'm already a bit drained from this back and forth... I don't understand your reads, and I'm still gauging on whether that's AI for you.

[Taly]

I don't see too much that profii did wrong honestly. Seems like an easy cw.

That's what I originally thought to, and am trying to decide on fully.

How about you talk about the

Elbirn, Sky, and profii

wagon and the votes on them?