Large Normal 228: Bananas - Game Over

[Drew-Sta]

I’ve been waiting to do this since the game thread was announced as banana’s.

[Drew-Sta]

Fwogcarf and Drew-Sta, can you guys link me to either your average and best town games? Please specify whether they are typical games and best town games. I am generally familiar with the personality types of everyone else here. It would help me determine your strengths and weaknesses to work with you better. I am picking you guys not for alignment reasons but for strategic ones. Please don't feel picked on.

I really hate meta reading. I think it is so open to scum for misuse, both to lynch and to town read. It is also so easy for town to get hung up on and fuck up their chances.

viewtopic.php?f=83&t=82859 <--- Evidence is there of misuse of meta on my by scum as town.
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=58538
viewtopic.php?f=84&t=57625

My other more recent games are currently in play, so not sure if they're ok to link to. I would say the above is standard. I don't have good games.

--

Looking through to catch up now.

[Drew-Sta]

But I suppose we're only missing two people that matter.

Hm

Who? And why do they matter?

1. Your story gives scum a means of coasting through the game all under the guise of "it's all in good fun"!

2. Calling it out prematurely denies information.

3. Calling ME out on not continuing the story means you surely don't care about using this story as a means of finding coasting scum.

1. Why do you think this?
2. Does it? Why?
3. I don't think that was their aim. I believe they cleared it up but it seemed fairly easy to see early on what they were trying to do, which was generate content.

More votes on osuka, please and thank you friends.

Also dang mod, that 4xBump Combo. Never in all my years have I seen such a daring maneuver.

Convincing case

VOTE: osuka

This has dissonance with your 54 and previous posts. The reason why is you deliberately take the game out of RVS with what you say, and then put us back in with an RVS vote.

What was your intent with driving for this?

So lucky do you think ranger is scum for calling out your posts reagrding your story. Or do you think he is town simply making a bad push

Why is it a bad push, bob?

I was a bit skeptical of the story too (despite contributing to it), and thought it was more likely to distract from scumhunting than to get more people posting, so I can't fault anyone criticizing it. Anyway, I think it's perfect at five sentences now.

pedit

no, it's not enough indication.

Then why

did

you contribute to it?

You're effectively rewriting how something is to be read, and I don't believe that comes from a town place.

VOTE: Umlaut

This pings me hard, because it shows you're happy to go along with someone then change your tune once others have attention focused on it. It's like you're keen to disassociate yourself from something or someone.

fascinating stuff

Why?

UNVOTE: Wake. VOTE: BlackRanger. I don't like his last two posts. They scream to me, "Hey, I exist, bye!" Also, he didn't continue the story.

Spoiler: Story

So there I was, eating a banana in my living room. I was just hanging out and having a good time, but then Bob walked in. I instantly lost my appetite when I saw what he was wearing.

"Bob," I sputtered, "how did you find my old bananakini?!"

"Does it highlight my banana?" Bob inquired.

how to you compare this to your own actions. As before your vote on black all you had done was

a) a rrvs posts on wake.

b) your vote for ranger in that posts.

Your remainign two posts were just fluff

Yeah, I've posted some fluff. We have 2 absent slots and 3 slots with 1 post each, 1 of which is awaiting replacement. I'm not going to start scumhunting when 5/14 slots don't exist. Generating activity feels more valuable than forcing the game out of RVS before players are even here.

I also disagree with this sentiment. Excusing yourself from scum hunting because five players aren't present is poor form. It feels like you're trying to lurk, and finding excuses to lurk.

--

Unsure what to make of the osuka v bob thing.

osuka's OMGUS at bob, and their 109 appears to be a loose attempt to build a case. I don't see osuka forming a case against bob, which makes me question the cause for their vote.

@osuka - are you scum reading bob?

[Drew-Sta]

Cakez' answer to me in 141 is good, leaning town there.

Then why

did

you contribute to [the story]?

You're effectively rewriting how something is to be read, and I don't believe that comes from a town place.

I contributed because I didn't want to be Boring McBuzzkill and figured I could give it benefit of the doubt until it actually did turn out to be a problem.

(Honestly I like the question though)

Why did it become a problem though?

[Drew-Sta]

Drew, I am not looking to meta you to determine alignment. I think using meta for alignment is trash too. I am looking to see your strengths and weaknesses as a player, not your alignment. I am going to be dead before I solve this game. My goal is to leave town in a position to solve it.

Ok, that makes sense. Feel free to ask questions as you see fit.

@osuka - are you scum reading bob?

yes

Why?

either bob is scum or they're playing a game like three standard deviations worse than the usual townie

That is not a scumread.

@Umlaut - you write in 149:

until it actually did turn out to be a problem.

Then type the below:

Why did it become a problem though?

It didn't, which is why I didn't say anything about my skepticism until people started calling Black Ranger scummy and citing his post saying the story was stupid. My

point there wasn't really about the story itself, it was that thinking it's stupid is a completely reasonable opinion for town to have and a bad reason to scumread Black Ranger

.

I'm struggling to reconcile this. Please clarify. Either the story was a problem, or it wasn't. I can agree with the bolded in 155.

[Drew-Sta]

Drew, glad to know I have your permission.

What would you do if I made a meta case against you? Call me out for being scum?

I'm hoping the bold is dry sarcasm. I honestly complied because I have to trust you're going to use it well for us to find scum.

Re what I'd do - what can I do? You're the only true, neutral arbiter. I would defend myself, but likely get frustrated at the same time. Euphony did it to me in a game, and they were scum, and it really shit me. I think, because I know you're town, I'd get slightly less frustrated as I could see you were trying to help town. But it's hard being town and trying to defend yourself on things you've done in previous games when the context is different.

Just some thoughts.

I contributed because I didn't want to be Boring McBuzzkill and figured I could give it benefit of the doubt until it actually did turn out to be a problem.

@Drew

I guess you're reading this as follows:

I figured at that time, "I can give it benefit of the doubt." Then, when it turned out to be a problem, I stopped figuring that.

But actually what I meant is more like:

I figured at that time, "I can give it benefit of the doubt until it turns out to be a problem."

This really pings me. I feel like you've slipped and are backtracking.

[Drew-Sta]

Then either you deny that the latter is a legitimate parse of 149, or you admit it's a legitimate parse but you think you couldn't have chosen the wrong parse of an ambiguous sentence. Which is it?

---

Thinking Black Ranger is town. 52 and 54 are actually quite towny posts IMO: scum has nothing to gain from starting that particular fight and the reasoning he gives (both for not liking it and for not commenting sooner) resonates with me. I think it's fair to question 55 but I don't necessarily take that vote at face value as being random.

Nahdia is kind of towny I guess but I don't see anything yet that would be hard for scum to emulate.

fwogcarf is not exactly giving me town pings but I need someone to explain the wagon because right now it looks to be based on some pretty weak surface-level points. Still want a response from Bob in particular re. 139.

I think you're playing semantics. I don't understand why you'd be ambiguous on something like that.

I need to go back and reread what you've said.

[Drew-Sta]

I dont have much else to comment on besides I kind of actually like fwog this game already?? dont like the votes on him either

What about him do you think you like?

[Drew-Sta]

@drew regarding question pointed at post 60. The question was to ask what lucky thought of blacks push. I made no inference on rangers push my self. A question that was intended to dig out luckys reasoning for his scum read of black

A question lucky just answered with fluff question.

I personaly doubt rangers push comes from scum. And do find it a bit suspect that lucky cant come up with reason as to why he thinks rangers push comes from scum

@drew regarding question pointed at post 60. The question was to ask what lucky thought of blacks push. I made no inference on rangers push my self. A question that was intended to dig out luckys reasoning for his scum read of black

A question lucky just answered with fluff.

I personaly doubt rangers push comes from scum. And do find it a bit suspect that lucky cant come up with reason as to why he thinks rangers push comes from scum

corrected. vestigial word got left in

I don't understand the bold.

You're scum reading Lucky based off their vote? Just making sure I'm clear on what you're saying.

@Black Ranger:

Spoiler:

But I suppose we're only missing two people that matter.

Hm

Who? And why do they matter?

Tchill and Saudade. Titus was the third player not in the game, but she's conftown and wasn't necessary to break ourselves out of RVS.

1. Why do you think this?
2. Does it? Why?
3. I don't think that was their aim. I believe they cleared it up but it seemed fairly easy to see early on what they were trying to do, which was generate content.

1. Basic sensibility.

a. 2. Sure. Once you announce a tell you can't accurately use it again, either because scum will now avoid the trap or they will

purposely

fall into it as a means of subversion. It wouldn't be useless, but it now becomes something in the realm of "not a singular reason you should be applying against someone".

This has dissonance with your 54 and previous posts. The reason why is you deliberately take the game out of RVS with what you say, and then put us back in with an RVS vote.

What was your intent with driving for this? .

b. osuka had 2 votes, so with Luciano's vote change onto me that wagon overtook wake. I wanted responses to the osuka wagon. RVS was already declining:

Hah, my plan to pre-emptively OMGUS has succeeded after all!

What do you hope to accomplish with said plan

All I really hoped to accomplish was entertaining myself, but your weirdly oversensitive response is an unexpected bonus.

@osuka

Want to talk about your vote on me? No one else wants to talk about anything, so you might as well.

I really didn't like this series of posts because

this

was threatening to take us out of RVS, and failing some miraculous series of events I always view these types of posts with suspicion. I might be wrong - but scum

love

getting out of RVS so they can claim they did something.

Listed and bolded what I wish to discuss:

a. I feel like you're stretching there. I agree it looked odd, but the intent seemed to be to get engagement with the game by making people post glib shit. I don't think you're misrepresenting of them but I don't agree with your assessment.
b. This pings me. Seems like you made a fuss, then got caught out, and back tracked in your behaviour.

i legitimately just didnt want to read it.

Ping. You're in a game about reading. It was painful, I agree, but skimming is something scum would do, not town.

I've only done a brief skim, but there are two topics I want to immediately address, and I will go back through and answer some of the smaller things.

(1) Lucky not wanting to scumhunt prior to all of the players being in the game.

Yeah, and I'm probably not going to scumhunt after all of the players are int he game either. It's not how I intend to play the game. My first game on mafiascum, Newbie 1988, came after a multiyear hiatus from mafia offsite. Titus was in that game. I ended up figuring out the game at the end, but not before I confbias tunneled nearly every single town in the game. I thought a lot about what went wrong that game, and how my play that game was different from my old town games before. The main difference I found was that I focused more on building town blocks before to minimize my tendency to be paranoid of people and assume everyone has an ulterior motive. My solve of that game game when I stopped looking for reasons people are scum and started looking for reasons people are town. My town play in Newbie 1995 is notably different than my town play in Newbie 1988 because it is a direct response to the flaws I saw in my play in 1988. I took this a step further after the game by observing Newbie 1998. The idea was I could put myself in a situation where it is not possible for me to pursue scumreads, as I wasn't in the game, making it easier to focus on townreads. I solved the game very early in my PT through PoE. The next game I played where I focused really hard on implementing this strategy was Newbie 2002. I made two pushes that entire game. The first was a reaction test which I explained throughout the game helped me develop strong townreads and limit my solve to 3 players on day 1. The second push was the only actual push that wasn't justified as "mafia by PoE", i.e. the only active push onto one of the 3 players in my PoE. It happened to be on the only town player in my PoE. While we won the game easily, and I had a correct solve early Day 1, it was further proof to myself that when I scumhunt, I confbias hella hard and even when I'm picking between 2 scum and a town to case, it's easy for me to zone in on the townie and convince myself they are scum.

That doesn't mean I won't call out things that I find scummy. If something pings me, I note it. I just prefer to build a town block because I'm better at that, mostly via being really, really bad when I confbias tunnel. Examples where I confbias tunnel and it's bad for town include, Newbie 1988, Newbie 1996 (I actually had a correct PoE early, and then let myself get so annoyed with a player that I pushed them so hard it derailed the entire game), and Micro 938 (I went into 5p LYLO knowing with pretty high certainty at least 1 of the mafia and planned to wait until 3p LYLO to finish the solve, but let another player's weird behavior throw me into a confbias tunnel that prevented me from even considering the second player, Umlaut, as scum).

It's kinda funny really, I sniped this game in the signups after Titus signed up, because she was largely the reason I didn't straight leave the site after how poorly I performed in my first game here. I literally cased every single townie in the game at some point. Now she's conftown and isn't going to be leading with reads so I don't get to interact with her how I wanted to. That is to say, I was excited to play with her now that my strategy revolves more around cooperative play than trying to solo carry the game, and she's in a position to observe an give her thoughts at EoD rather than actively work with players as they develop reads.

---

Change of plans. I cut the second topic I wanted to discuss and pasted it into a word doc to bring up at a later time, I've realized it has more value discussing later. I'll be back in a few hours to address other topics that popped up while I was gone.

This is an inordinate post trying to justify your decision not to scum hunt. I don't believe this comes from a town place. It's like you're flashing your cards to us to feign innocence and makes me think you have something hidden.

so realtalk, did anyone else just like... not read the whole bob/osuka thing? show of hands? o/

Why?

sarcasm, my dude

Nahdia seems sort of townie? I haven't played with her in ages so my meta is junk.

mmmmm why? any reasoning besides stale meta?

you seem to not care about other players which is a good thing alignment-wise

Black Ranger's posts read really overwrought. like they're trying to make sure everything looks right. I dislike it.

I get that sense a little too. It's a 'I'm trying hard, guys, I'm town' feel to it.

Only half here today, dealing with RL medical things

VOTE: Bob
Osuka looks a bit better over time and I agree upon consideration that Bob's plagiaristic approach to reads is unnerving.

No real read on the replacements yet.

Fwog wagon is still ???

Can you expand why you think bob is scum?

[Drew-Sta]

Just catching up. More I will post, soon.

[Drew-Sta]

@drew na what i meant was that it was intended to try and sort lucky.

Ok. Thank you for clearing that up.

@Drew

Then why did you contribute to it?

You're effectively rewriting how something is to be read, and I don't believe that comes from a town place.

Could you walk me through this because I'm confused tbh. I don't get it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding Lucky:

Lucky's attitude in post 199 resonates with me. Townhunting is also a valid way to scumhunt lol. But the explanation is so......long and could have been more concise imo. Emotion seems genuine here especially regarding Titus and he seems earnest because he's overdefending himself but he may be

too earnest

so I don't want to townread him so easily. Haven't seen the townhunting yet so not a good

luck

look overall.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Drew

Spoiler:

I've basically skimmed most of the game and it was hard for me to pick up anything. Guess it's all the new dudes i haven't played with, a lot of their words just sound like noise.

I noticed some people scumreading Black Ranger, why?
As for wagon on

Fenraiser

fwog. Most questionable thing i can find is his post 98. What do you mean? Who is the scum doing a "theater"?

Fixed that for you.

Re your request for a walk through.

Person A proposes we do something.
Person B engages with it.
Person C identifies what was being done was stupid and not meritorious for town.
Person B agrees with Person C, and suggests what Person A was doing was problematic.
Person D asks why they engaged with it, if that's how they felt.
Person B redefines how something should be interpreted, rather than allowing how it played out in the game to be the way it should be interprted.

That is rewriting how something should be interpreted. Which, IMHO, is not townbased behaviour.

Also,t he @Drew spoiler thing - what did you mean by that?

Re Lucky, I'm not debating whether town hunting is as valid as scum hunting. I'm arguing their desire to explain themselves seemed very anxious, which made me consider it unusual.

[Drew-Sta]

I uh mixed up drew and nor when @ing in the last section of 281. Oh my god lol. Drew just used my name when he was actually talking about fwog. Not relevant really but just a point I wanted to make.

@Drew

How do you think the lucky story should be interpreted.

I talked about fwog? Confused.

Interpretation should be same as RVS. Shitkicking at game start. Which is why Umluat's desire to distance themselves triggered me as a scum being nervous on something they've engaged with and wanting to push it away.

[Drew-Sta]

Listed and bolded what I wish to discuss:

a. I feel like you're stretching there. I agree it looked odd, but the intent seemed to be to get engagement with the game by making people post glib shit. I don't think you're misrepresenting of them but I don't agree with your assessment.
b. This pings me. Seems like you made a fuss, then got caught out, and back tracked in your behaviour.

If you're not going to ask me any questions then you're talking for an audience and should follow it up with a vote.

I only have one vote. It’s on someone I believe is scum. So sue me that I can’t vote twice.

Secondly, the aggressive ‘fuck off arsehole’ vibe I’m getting from you amuses me.

[Drew-Sta]

I only have one vote. It’s on someone I believe is scum. So sue me that I can’t vote twice.

Secondly, the aggressive ‘fuck off arsehole’ vibe I’m getting from you amuses me.

If you wanted to continue to sort me you would have asked for feedback. If you're talking to the playerlist instead you're basically derailing your attempt to wagon Umlaut in the process. There's scum motive in keeping me as an acceptable discussion to have without furthering it yourself.

Now you're just misrepresenting things. I was actually engaging with you in discussion in 256, you then suggest I'm talking to the audience and should follow it up with a vote for you in 293, I advise I'm voting my key scum lead in 299 and you now suggest I'm not asking for feedback or engagement, which closes the loop on this little piss take you've taken us on.

Scum motive for keeping you as acceptable discussion? Sorry, but you acting like a pigheaded cunt is achieving that - not me.

Keep the pineapple wedged riiiiiight up there mate, it suits you.

Now, onto the actual discussion that needs to be had - your not answering what I wrote in 256.

1. Why did you choose to make such a fuss about the fucking story, and why do you think it's a tell?
2. You come out screaming like a bat outta hell, acting all serious and shit, then in 55 runs at complete odds with your approach and you seem to enter back into RVS for some unknown reason. The suggestion you wanted answers on the osuka wagon, yet quote Nadhia's 51 as your reason to vote them is either complete mixed messaging or

not

what you are arguing for in 179. How do you explain the dissonance in those posts?

[Drew-Sta]

Prodge. Will reread tomorrow. I've currently had a cracking week at work.

[Drew-Sta]

Catching up, then I've got some views.

Haven't caught up yet. I've been coming down with something that's starting to look a bit worse than short-term. I'm on a lot of medicine and don't have the energy to keep up with a mafia game at the moment. I'm going to replace out, I just want to post part 2 of my earlier post. Reason for withholding at the time was to watch how the wagon developed. Use it as you will. This hasn't been updated since I made that post.

(2) fwogcarf

I have been watching how people interact with fwogcarf ever since the exchange he had with Nahdia between 98 and 115. I figured a wagon would build on fwog because of it and wanted to watch so that we can get the game properly out of RVS before giving my piece on this. The way I read the scumreads on fwog are basically that players don't understand the way he operates. He literally doesn't give a fuck about the early parts of day 1. I played with town!fwog in Newbie 2001 and it took him several hundred posts to even start trying. This answers back Cakez not liking his dismissiveness of Nahdia's early scumread (137). When he does actually play, he overemphasizes finding scum and underutilizes finding town - causing the same problems I try to avoid with my change in play - and his desire to pinpoint the exact scumteam leads him to use associatives far too early. Throughout Newbie 2001 he both made hard associative reads Day 1, sometimes assuming theater like he has in this game, and hard tunneled while refusing to consider other options. A quick skim of his iso in that game will show that he dismisses things he doesn't think are worth talking about early, which includes most things, and should answer back Nahdia and bob's reasons for voting him. What's more interesting is Ranger's naked vote.

So you're making a meta read based on one game? I just want to be clear here on what you're proposing.

But you can use the flamethrower.

lol i'm putting my vote back where my slot had it in the first place

VOTE: Black Ranger

Why? This makes me nervous given the:

a. lack of analysis suggesting your read
b. 395 (and, again, no information whatsoever in your vote for why you read them scum)

I uh mixed up drew and nor when @ing in the last section of 281. Oh my god lol. Drew just used my name when he was actually talking about fwog. Not relevant really but just a point I wanted to make.

@Drew

How do you think the lucky story should be interpreted.

I talked about fwog? Confused.

Interpretation should be same as RVS. Shitkicking at game start. Which is why Umluat's desire to distance themselves triggered me as a scum being nervous on something they've engaged with and wanting to push it away.

@Drew regarding Umlaut

Your take has always been interesting to me when I first read it but I didn't know what to think of it back then. My first impression of Umlaut was that he would be hard to read due to me misreading his tone at first.

I've never seen Umlaut as nervous in this game,

especially in engaging something so seemingly harmless like the story. His light-hearted tone conflicts with any nervousness tbh so I don't really think I can see it that way. Also, some people may view RvS situations as more AI compared to how you view them and it may be a thing here but idk. Reading this, do you still see Umlaut the same way?

The bolded is what I'm seeing. That nervousness speaks only to scum tell or PR. I am unable to distinguish which of the two it is.

there also some other arguments with my slot about townhunting being not just bad but "malicious". ok, my slot is scummy, malicious, does scummy things... does he ever come out and say he has a scumread? dude, kiss already!

Where are these arguments?

Okay, I found them by searching "malicious."

@BR

Going off from this, what do you think of Lucky's recent response?

I felt like he humored Drew too much with a giant post about why scumhunting is hard. Beyond that he gave a baseline of what I should expect from him and he's now married to that idea.

I think encouraging somebody to build a town bloc is pointless fluff and potentially malicious. A good way to build a bloc of townies is to lynch scum and realize it after the fact.

I agree that this looks like he's saying he scumreads your slot, but I'm not totally sure I'm reading it right.

@BR

Who is "encouraging somebody to build a town bloc" here?

i guess i liked the question more than the point itself. it's a good question, u can say u didn't like the story idea but u did contribute to it, u have to explain that before u can credibly call out anyone else on the story. not sure you're "rewriting" so much as just skipping over a step though

that drew noticed that and pointed it out makes him look more town not you scum

I wasn't trying to call anybody out on the story, I was trying to defend BR's callout as something that could come from town; maybe that's why I wasn't impressed with the point. But I suppose that whether it's exactly correct is kind of immaterial to reading Drew for the manner in which he pushed it.

After three posts of back-and-forth about it I subjectively felt Drew was insisting on that point beyond what was rational, but this is probably just because I know what I intended and I assume everyone should always take me at my word.

On bolded - the fact is you it's not me insisting on it. It's actually just there. I'm pressing you on it, sure, but that's what is done.

You've given no real rational answer to why you'd engage with something then flip on your own behaviour like that. The nervousness is something that I get pinged by, because it has basis in a reason. You don't act nervous unless you are nervous. And if you are nervous, why?

@drew na what i meant was that it was intended to try and sort lucky.

Ok. Thank you for clearing that up.

@Drew

Then why did you contribute to it?

You're effectively rewriting how something is to be read, and I don't believe that comes from a town place.

Could you walk me through this because I'm confused tbh. I don't get it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding Lucky:

Lucky's attitude in post 199 resonates with me. Townhunting is also a valid way to scumhunt lol. But the explanation is so......long and could have been more concise imo. Emotion seems genuine here especially regarding Titus and he seems earnest because he's overdefending himself but he may be

too earnest

so I don't want to townread him so easily. Haven't seen the townhunting yet so not a good

luck

look overall.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Drew

Spoiler:

I've basically skimmed most of the game and it was hard for me to pick up anything. Guess it's all the new dudes i haven't played with, a lot of their words just sound like noise.

I noticed some people scumreading Black Ranger, why?
As for wagon on

Fenraiser

fwog. Most questionable thing i can find is his post 98. What do you mean? Who is the scum doing a "theater"?

Fixed that for you.

Re your request for a walk through.

Person A proposes we do something.
Person B engages with it.
Person C identifies what was being done was stupid and not meritorious for town.
Person B agrees with Person C, and suggests what Person A was doing was problematic.
Person D asks why they engaged with it, if that's how they felt.
Person B redefines how something should be interpreted, rather than allowing how it played out in the game to be the way it should be interprted.

That is rewriting how something should be interpreted. Which, IMHO, is not townbased behaviour.

Also,t he @Drew spoiler thing - what did you mean by that?

Re Lucky, I'm not debating whether town hunting is as valid as scum hunting. I'm arguing their desire to explain themselves seemed very anxious, which made me consider it unusual.

this is a bit weird and rubs me off the wrong way.

keeping in mind the fact that his point is that person B "redefined how something should be interpreted" (whatever that means), here's how the walkthrough went:

1. show some facts
2. show some interpretation of the facts
3. show the point he's trying to prove in the same format as he's been showing facts (!)
4. reiterate his point while pretending the above proves it (!!)

1,2,3,4 all distort what I'm doing. Nice work.



Do you not know what 'redefining how something should be interpreted as'?

It means you change how something is understood, for your own benefit. Which is what they did. Do you get that?

Now, let me ask you. Do you think that's from a town place?

I’m not really seeing that many convincing arguments yet and that’s probably why i can’t pay much attention to all that’s going on. I’m keeping my vote on Cakez and suggest we lynch there. But all in all i’d jusy like to end day 1 so discussion maybe will have more meaning to me.

This is the shittest of them all. Big ping. Getting to night is never in our best interest.

UNVOTE: Umlaut
VOTE: Norwee

You can demonstrate how good you find it by voting for Norwegian.

Horrible wagon

Why?

cakez youre kind of over exaggerating what norwee said acting as if hes proposing we quicklynch you

He is.

"I want to lynch cakez" + "I want to end the day"

No, you're just misrepping what i said.

No, they're not.

I'll admit to a little OMGUS but knowing I'm town the desire to do a lynch on me early reads very scummily

scumposting

Explain?

Three days to go and the wagon development feels really slow. Gotta zoom!

VOTE: SirCakez

Just because I have this slot as null and he seems like the biggest comparison to fwog, who I have as null/town

This is also a shit post. There is zero town equity in here. Your flip flop from BR (who I read as mildly town, despite his aggressive tone and inconsistency early on) to Cakez is even more notable given Norwee's apparent slip. You seem happy to distract and turn attention away from that slip to someone else and begin a wagon.

No town behaviour at all.

You can demonstrate how good you find it by voting for Norwegian.

Horrible wagon

Can I get a read list from you, excluding yourself and me?

hopefully people know what brackets are

{osuka, Norwegian, Puppy}
{Fenraiser, Manatee, BR, Wake, Umlaut, Cakez}
{bob, Drew}
{Nahdia}

I honestly don't. Please explain.

Let's lynch between bob, cakes and Drew.

/nods

i don't want to argue, i just want to know what u're thinking

having the conf town declare what the right wagons are will not be useful to me tomorrow

having the conf town walk me through a 100% town thought process will

I feel those three wagons are most likely to hit scum. Most of the suspicions are T v T. BR, osaka, nahdia, and fro all feel town.

Bob v Cakez feels fake. Drew feels like an instigator. I doubt all of these are scum. The way people vote will set up associatives.

I prefer 'spoon', as all I do is stir shit up and see what happens. But instigator works.

Out of bob, cakes and drew I’m lynching bob every single time here

Why?

It sounds slightly off, but he's posting exactly how he did in another match I just finished with him where he was town. I'm not seeing anything other than typical bob.

implying that lack of activity is always scummy isnt helpful bc theres a multitude of things that could lead to that, all which could be completely out of game. Remember even though we're in isolation some people are under mass amounts of pressure even if they aren't working simply bc this is such a stressful time. Anyways thats my rant I think we should engage wake more instead of using low-activity as a crutch to scumread them

Agree.

implying that lack of activity is always scummy isnt helpful bc theres a multitude of things that could lead to that, all which could be completely out of game. Remember even though we're in isolation some people are under mass amounts of pressure even if they aren't working simply bc this is such a stressful time. Anyways thats my rant I think we should engage wake more instead of using low-activity as a crutch to scumread them

For any individual slot, I agree. There's lurking scum too though.

For instance, where have you been? This is active lurking? Who do you want dead? What do you think of my lynchpool?

Logical inconsistency above is that scum is just lurking. In my experience, there is always a slow poster in scum teams, and the rest are medium to high level posters. In fact, I find the timing of when they interact more telling than their overall activity. Right now, you're applying baseline principles to the situation without scruitiny and I find that concerning as it can lead us down the wrong path.

Since you're the arbiter of neutrality here for us as town, it's important you consider this, as your say holds more weight to me and others (and rightly so) than anyone else.

Puppy might just be scum too.

Why?

kinda feel like ive forgotten how to play this game. not that i was ever any good as town to begin with.

i kee pwriting thoughts but then looking it back over and convincing myself of the opposite. so im just gonna ask questions and see where it gets me.

cakez, when you said you felt like i was town you hedged by saying your meta is really old so therefore maybe invalid. is there anything specific from my townplay that you were thinking of there? also would like to hear more on your fwog thoughts actually. like, i see you basically quoting a few posts and shading them and i dont necessarily disagree but i need some INSIGHT to your thought process here.

gonna go read over drew and bob. actually feel like titus narrowing the pool makes this game easier to approach in a way, which is nice. feels like less of a gargantuan task if im just looking at them.

The bolded pings me hard. It's a slot cop out and that to me is a 'brush off' tactic to try and push people away from concentration on them.

I'd want Drew over Bob over Cakez but I also have zero desire to engage the Drew slot

Just putting that out there before I do this

VOTE: Drew

You talk a big game then melt like ice on a hot Australian day when someone is happy to push back.

Swallow some cement and actually have a go.

mmmm drew's ISO has a lot of ?'s though there is some followup at least. didnt like them accusing umlaut of slipping.

drew do you have any updated thoughts on umlaut's slot or are you content on this deathtunnel?

I have found Umlaut more consistent but their nervousness has me worried. Their noting of Norwee's behaviour and pushing of that is excellent and I think what a town player would and should do. It's more telling that people haven't observed that and moved onto norwee for pressure, and that's made me think the norwee vote has merit since mafia would drive a wagon like that as what he posted is a clear easy push - at least to establish pressure if not to see where it goes.

It gives me confidence about Umlaut, in that case. I still think there's questions about their slot but we'll see how it develops.

Your read on ranger is really shallow and amounts to two-three lines.

Volume =/= Depth

Agreed.

[Drew-Sta]

At this point I don't think Titus' read list is developed enough. Is cakes, bob scum? I don't think so on bob. Not yet, anyway. Cakes appears far more wishy washy. I wouldn't be opposed to a closer look on them to see where it goes.

I'm conscious there's an element of self pres in my defence, which I can accept enjoys WIFOM scruitiny. I would rather look into norwee, Nadhia, Puppy and Fen first.

I do think Wake's slot needs to be resolved from a PoE perspective. Whilst activity =/= alignment, what I find is these slots confuse town and provide easy mislynches for scum. That to me is the problem of low posters - they prevent PoE and provide cover to scum to hide in.

[Drew-Sta]

Spoiler:

I don't think a Nahdia wagon would be bad, but i'd like to settle some scores first.

What scores? Why does this prevent you from voting Nahdia?

why do you think Nahdia scum here Titus? W

ant to hear your opinion cuz I can't figure her out.

this game is slower than slower than molasses

jeez
like the Puppy entrance and that's about all I have to add here

Starting to think osuka maybe town

I mean

he kind of

was
"I want to lynch cakez" + "I want to end the day"

Need a VC

If fwog wagon is dead I'll go back to BR for consolidation

Wake's absence is also concerning
He was a lot more active as town in the Mini I played with him recently

"I want to lynch cakez" + "I want to end the day"

No, you're just misrepping what i said.

What were you saying then?

I mean he kind of was
"I want to lynch cakez" + "I want to end the day"

So are you saying some wanting to lynch you and thus end the day is scummy?


I must say so far you have not pinged me like the last game i had with you. That game you were my number one day one town read. This game im certainly not getting that.

Yeah cuz what's the town motivation for it?

Are you saying that town would not be motivated to lynch someone they think is scum?

And that it is not a townie thing to want to try and lynch scum. Really.

As so far, you have not given a single reason as to why the fact that Ranger wants your lynch leads to the conclusion that he is scum. In effect your scum read is nothing more tha omgus Ranger scum reads me thus he is scum.

In fact you have yet to give a any reason as to why you think he is scum. At most i can see you saying his post on pg 2 were bad. But nothing about what you foudn bad about them.

Again what about Rangers scum read of you do you claim to think isnt genuinely held. as even if you are town wouldnt you be trying to figure out if he is town wrongly scum reading you or scum faking a scum read on you

I assume you mean Norwegian here?
You're misrepping me reallly bad by saying that I'm SRing Norwegian for trying to lynch me. I'm SRing that because he's trying to end the day early by lynching me when we still have time left.
I have talked about Black Ranger more than just page 2. I find his tone and posts to be very overworked and fake-sounding, this started from that ridiculous over-aggression he had early on.

i was talking about both but i do think i got bit mixed up when writing the posts. The first half was intented to be about nord and the later about ranger.


So you say its not because of the fact that he wants to lynch you but becuase he wants to end it now. ok. But still your really just splitting hairs here as it all still comes down to you pushign a player for wantign your lynch. What real difference does it make if he wants you today or tommorrow. It migth have been half way day one and although i do think thats to early to end the day. I dont see it as valid reason to scum read some alone. As unless you have meta on nord saying that he always waits until the last minute as town. I cant see that alone being enough to back up the validity of your scum read on him. As i would expect that you would have to find something significantly wrong with his scum read towards you. To think the fact that nord is happy to end the day with your lynch rather than wait a few more days to be a significant enough to form a scum read around it. But all i can find is you saying he misrepped one of your posts with no follow up on it. Everythign else you were on the defensive

So what in his read of you is significant enough to warrant such scum read when combined with him being happy to end teh day now with your lynch. What makes you think he isnt town happy he has found scum. As for you to conclude teh time issue means scum. There must be something. and i would of expected you to be pushign him over it.


Barely any more about Black ranger than that one post. Below is teh only other two posts i found a reference to ranger in that you were not either responding too or making fluff post.

"Still SRing Black Ranger. Nahdia asked why? Because his page 1/2 content looked like scum trying to get posts in as "content"" 137
"Black Ranger's posts read really overwrought. like they're trying to make sure everything looks right. I dislike it." 211

So far from this posts here you have only extented you read on him to add over-agressive.

What do you make of his reads? On other players reads of him?
What do you think is his scum motivation for any push or town read he may have pushed?

Your read on ranger is really shallow and amounts to two-three lines.

On Nord - my SR there is pretty weak

and only evidenced by that push to end the day we've been discussing. I have other much stronger SRs and I'm not sure why you think my SR on that post = a super strong SR on Nord. I've called one post of his and you're acting like I'm deathtunneling him.

On BR - I don't like getting into things like motivations for certain pushes until we have flips.

I'm reading him off tone here. And I always play like this, none of my reads are ever super fleshed out or detailed.

I also don't want to get into some huge wall war with you like you did with osuka earlier.

Read above. Bolded is what I'm discussing.

In my mind, the focus on BR but your vote is on feog. You cast a wide net and the language appears without conviction.

Again, that's my view. I've never played with you so this might need to be adjusted at my end but that's what I'm seeing.

To me, lack of conviction identifies active lurking, which is wishy washy and allows you, the slot, to move between wagons as you see fit. What holds me back is you haven't flip flopped through. Which is why I've got interest in you but reservations about declaring you a SR.

[Drew-Sta]

The point you keep insisting on is that I am, or was, nervous and backtracking. I wasn't, and honestly I can't see what you even think there is for me to be nervous about or how you think it would hypothetically benefit me as scum to profess some specific opinion with regard to that story at all.

I’m not the only one to notice your nervousness. So that correlates my view on your jitteryness.

I think I am beginning to discern

why

you are, but that your behaviour is like that I think is evident.

The flip on the story thing still sits as a tell of sorts. That suggests you’re blind to your own playstyle/what has happened, or you’re lying.

[Drew-Sta]

Norwegian is town and I don't blame them for wanting to end day early

Hot take of the century

I want to know why you read him this way and I want to know why getting to night is in any way a town based behaviour.

[Drew-Sta]

Uh I said I didn't read Unlaut as nervous more of confident @Drew

I went back and reread and you’re correct. I misread the emphasis on a few words and misunderstood the meaning of what you said. I retract my comment regarding your suggestion.

As I’ve said, my view on Um has progressed in a positive sense but I still am wary.

[Drew-Sta]

also, drew, what's this Norwee slip that I'm apparently dastardly helping conceal?

Your avatar and name make it almost impossible for me to properly read you without getting town vibes... I've never felt so unintentionally manipulated by someone in my life.

I believe Nor slipped in 369. I believe your 395 is an attempt to switch peoples attention away from it. Nipping it in the bud, to use an expression. This is what I mean by timing and input, as mentioned to Titus. The problem is distinguishing actual intentional shifts from coincidental ones. Given Nor is on Cakez too, I'm seeing it as associative.

More votes on Sircakez please.

Why.

Spoiler:

@drew na what i meant was that it was intended to try and sort lucky.

Ok. Thank you for clearing that up.

@Drew

Then why did you contribute to it?

You're effectively rewriting how something is to be read, and I don't believe that comes from a town place.

Could you walk me through this because I'm confused tbh. I don't get it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding Lucky:

Lucky's attitude in post 199 resonates with me. Townhunting is also a valid way to scumhunt lol. But the explanation is so......long and could have been more concise imo. Emotion seems genuine here especially regarding Titus and he seems earnest because he's overdefending himself but he may be

too earnest

so I don't want to townread him so easily. Haven't seen the townhunting yet so not a good

luck

look overall.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Drew

Spoiler:

I've basically skimmed most of the game and it was hard for me to pick up anything. Guess it's all the new dudes i haven't played with, a lot of their words just sound like noise.

I noticed some people scumreading Black Ranger, why?
As for wagon on

Fenraiser

fwog. Most questionable thing i can find is his post 98. What do you mean? Who is the scum doing a "theater"?

Fixed that for you.

Re your request for a walk through.

Person A proposes we do something.
Person B engages with it.
Person C identifies what was being done was stupid and not meritorious for town.
Person B agrees with Person C, and suggests what Person A was doing was problematic.
Person D asks why they engaged with it, if that's how they felt.
Person B redefines how something should be interpreted, rather than allowing how it played out in the game to be the way it should be interprted.

That is rewriting how something should be interpreted. Which, IMHO, is not townbased behaviour.

Also,t he @Drew spoiler thing - what did you mean by that?

Re Lucky, I'm not debating whether town hunting is as valid as scum hunting. I'm arguing their desire to explain themselves seemed very anxious, which made me consider it unusual.

this is a bit weird and rubs me off the wrong way.

keeping in mind the fact that his point is that person B "redefined how something should be interpreted" (whatever that means), here's how the walkthrough went:

1. show some facts
2. show some interpretation of the facts
3. show the point he's trying to prove in the same format as he's been showing facts (!)
4. reiterate his point while pretending the above proves it (!!)

1,2,3,4 all distort what I'm doing. Nice work.



Do you not know what 'redefining how something should be interpreted as'?

It means you change how something is understood, for your own benefit. Which is what they did. Do you get that?

Now, let me ask you. Do you think that's from a town place?

Nothing there was distorted - but if I happen to be mistaken, then surely you must know how exactly my post distorted what you did. Care to elaborate?

i think it's funny that you pick on the words I used (since they're the words you used). "redefining how something is understood" is just a mouthful when you can just say misrep - so i'm gonna go with that from now on.

to be clear, i understand perfectly what that means and in you trying to "prove" your point, you made an obviously fabricated argument with a premise that proves the conclusion. In fact, it's even funnier that you then did exactly the same thing in 473: you twisted slightly what i said so that it seems like I don't think that behavior is scummy, when in fact I'm only pointing out that the way you went about making your point about that behavior is very, very weird.

are you a spin doctor?

you should be a spin doctor.

@osuka - responding with spoiler to prevent eye cancer (I admit my walls are too big at times).

I believed your attempt with what you said in the '1,2,3,4' bit was to undermine the validity of what I said by suggesting there was no facts (1,2) with 3,4 pressing that point. This is how I interpreted what you wrote. Feel free to clear up what you mean if I have misunderstood what you've said.

I also did not make a fabricated argument with a premise. I made an argument based off what I observed and the intention that could be behind it. That's not misrepresenting or fabricating. It's called trying to understand the drive of someones posts.

I also did not twist slightly what you said. I called it out. I may be missing the point of what you meant with your 1,2,3,4 bit, but certainly from the angle I'm sitting at, you were attempting to undermine what I had to say by calling into question its factual basis. If I have this wrong, please elucidate what you meant by it so I can take stock of it.

How I went about making my point is my own style. If you're hung up on it I apologise but cannot do more than that.

I'm not a spin doctor, but I have done spin class before. I saw a doctor after about it.

Titus whats the difference between me and wake that you're willing to lynch me and not them

Wake's seems IRL motivated.

He claimed he's playing a minimalist play style though.

That might be so but it creates ambiguity in the pool from whom we're trying to learn from. This ambiguity is not helpful to town and hinders our progress, since it provides space to hide for scum IMHO.

BTW, I'm not arguing with you - simply presenting my challenges with his slot.

[Drew-Sta]

Mine

[Drew-Sta]

@Black Ranger - I would like to hear your thoughts on the Nor slot.

@Puppy - what is your thoughts on Nadhia slot.

[Drew-Sta]

@cakez - I would like to hear your thoughts on Fen slot too, please.

[Drew-Sta]

I'm disagreeing with the read on Manatee but agree that a consensus vote needs to occur.

Given people aren't going to vote in line with what I've suggested, Titus - can you confirm why Manatee? A poor mislynch doesn't give us worthwhile wagon analysis.

[Drew-Sta]

There's a bit I need to catch up on but since I have more time I will delay that until later.

[Drew-Sta]

If you're going this far up my townreads you should remove me from the game because it isn't going to get any easier from here on out.

I don't understand this post. Like, I'm not following what you mean understand. Can you clarify?

I'm disagreeing with the read on Manatee but agree that a consensus vote needs to occur.

Given people aren't going to vote in line with what I've suggested, Titus - can you confirm why Manatee? A poor mislynch doesn't give us worthwhile wagon analysis.

There’s a good chance I’ll die tonight so if I do, remember this as a scumpost

Without thinking much about it, there is at least one scum in { drew, umlaut, puppy }

You post this, then post this:

In the interest of getting at least something to work with

VOTE: manatee

with knowledge that this slot will likely flip green

Are you deliberately trying to be inconsistent or just take joy in throwing shade on people?

I'm disagreeing with the read on Manatee but agree that a consensus vote needs to occur.

Given people aren't going to vote in line with what I've suggested, Titus - can you confirm why Manatee? A poor mislynch doesn't give us worthwhile wagon analysis.

Because Bob Cakez nor Drew took off. A lurker lynch is the best I could get.

Ok. I feel nervous about this. I just also know wagon analysis is important.

Lemme think...

Nahdia also likely scum

I can get behind this. Would you compromise also on Norwee?

[Drew-Sta]

I don't understand this post. Like, I'm not following what you mean understand. Can you clarify?

I'm telling Titus that I intend to be a bigger pain in the ass.

Roger that.

I'm disagreeing with the read on Manatee but agree that a consensus vote needs to occur.

Given people aren't going to vote in line with what I've suggested, Titus - can you confirm why Manatee? A poor mislynch doesn't give us worthwhile wagon analysis.

There’s a good chance I’ll die tonight so if I do, remember this as a scumpost

Without thinking much about it, there is at least one scum in { drew, umlaut, puppy }

You post this, then post this:

In the interest of getting at least something to work with

VOTE: manatee

with knowledge that this slot will likely flip green

Are you deliberately trying to be inconsistent or just take joy in throwing shade on people?

this is a particularly obtuse push

I do very much enjoy throwing shade on people but please explain how on earth I’m supposed to get anyone in that pool lynched

You are knowingly lynching someone you believe is town. That is what I'm saying. Your compromise in doing so at this stage of the game is what I'm saying you're inconsistent with, since you won't push another wagon.

You also tell me I'm scum posting when you do the above. And then suggest I'm the obtuse one..?

[Drew-Sta]

UNVOTE: ManateeDude
(Don't worry, I have no life and can put my vote back on at any time, just have some business to take care of first)

I know it's most likely too late for this, but can I get a quick show of hands on who would lynch Drew?

I'm getting a gut sensation that I'm about to see some green text if we flip Manatee, and Drew vaguely shading votes onto the wagon while also saying "sure I guess I can vote there" but not actually doing so feels like he wants the wagon to go to lynch but wants to be on record as against it.

No. I don't want to lynch because I see no evidence suggesting it is a good one.

I'm not throwing shade on the lynch. I'm suggesting the inconsistency on osuka is amazing.

[Drew-Sta]

This is so insanely frustrating...

[Drew-Sta]

This is so insanely frustrating...

I love the smell of tilted scum in the morning

It's not that at all and you know it. You're flinging shit around and making no sense in what you're posting.

[Drew-Sta]

Do what you want. It's clear you're not going to listen.

[Drew-Sta]

Do what you want. It's clear you're not going to listen.

You’re not saying anything though, what is anyone supposed to listen to

I've said enormous amounts. I've given good thought into what I've said too. But, whatever. You're not interested in reason.

I mean I don't have a huge case, it's been hard for me to get strong reads on anyone this game. I'm mostly on Drew now because of his behavior around the Manatee wagon just a few pages ago; 693 in particular really struck me as looking for a safe position. (Why ask Titus in particular to explain why Manatee? Being conftown doesn't make her reasons more correct than anyone else's.) I feel like the main thing that's made me hesitant to scumread him has been just that he posted a lot of walls but, on reflection, I think that players who wallpost a lot usually do it as either alignment, so that's not much of a reason.

I have found Umlaut more consistent but their nervousness has me worried. Their noting of Norwee's behaviour and pushing of that is excellent and I think what a town player would and should do. It's more telling that people haven't observed that and moved onto norwee for pressure, and that's made me think the norwee vote has merit since mafia would drive a wagon like that as what he posted is a clear easy push - at least to establish pressure if not to see where it goes.

It gives me confidence about Umlaut, in that case. I still think there's questions about their slot but we'll see how it develops.

Also looking back at things like this I see a bit too much advertising of Drew's trajectory; as if he thinks he can't just drop the scumread on me, he has to show that he's gradually and naturally moving on from it (even though actual town players' reads jump all over the place all the time).

Why Titus? Because she's the only one who I can trust as I know there's no ulterior motive in her posts.

And you have a problem with me

not

jumping on a lynch for someone that I don't at this stage consider scum

because

there's no reason to support this? You also have a problem with me questioning someone's decision to vote for someone they believe is town?

Re my progression. That's all WIFOM bullshit you're hiding behind. You think I'm scum because I'm not behaving the way I should? Talk about threadbare reasoning.

[Drew-Sta]

I don't want this lynch but I would still do it, if the alternative is you, manatee or no lynch, what would do you, drew?

No lynch is horrible. It gets us zero vote analysis in D2.

Me - no. Self pres. I have contributions to make. Killing me is not helpful.

By virtue of no options, Manatee. I just think the reasons for it are shit and I honestly think we'll see them flip town.

Thus, I didn't want the lynch in the first place. Look how fast their and my wagon has gathered momentum. Yet we got nowhere on other wagons. What does that tell you?

[Drew-Sta]

Thus, I didn't want the lynch in the first place. Look how fast their and my wagon has gathered momentum. Yet we got nowhere on other wagons. What does that tell you?

What I mean by this is I feel there were better options listed earlier that were tellingly overlooked.

Why we have not tried to start a wagon on Nadhia is beyond me. There's more merit there than in Manatee.

[Drew-Sta]

Thus, I didn't want the lynch in the first place. Look how fast their and my wagon has gathered momentum. Yet we got nowhere on other wagons. What does that tell you?

What I mean by this is I feel there were better options listed earlier that were tellingly overlooked.

Why we have not tried to start a wagon on Nadhia is beyond me. There's more merit there than in Manatee.

I'm just going to move on from this point, because nobody actually writes "I don't want to lynch because I'm not convinced it is a good one" without meaning "I don't want this lynch because I'm not convinced it is a good one" or "I don't want to lynch Manatee because I'm not convinced it is a good one". Our reactions were different but I'm reading less into it because it's easier if you're just scum.

... what?

[Drew-Sta]

No. I don't want to lynch because I see no evidence suggesting it is a good one.

I'm not throwing shade on the lynch. I'm suggesting the inconsistency on osuka is amazing.

Osuka thinks you're scumslipping here.

Eh? So me trying to slow a rapid lynch on someone osuka believes is town is a scum slip?

[Drew-Sta]

Why is Nahdia scum and is this read stronger than your read on Norwegian?

Nor is my primary read. It's not going to happen. I'd compromise on Nadhia.

[Drew-Sta]

Anyway. Do what you want to do. I'm tired of arguing in circles with you. You don't believe me so it is not going to make a difference.

p-edit - You're my primary read for what I consider a slip you made way back when. Go iso me. I cbf'd trying to look for it. It won't save me from you idiots mislynching me anyway.

Peace out homies. Enjoy the game.

Manatee, you owe me a beer for saving your arse.