NY 174: Oldy Mafia 2 (Game Over)
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chamber Cases are scummy
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chamber Cases are scummy
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chamber Cases are scummy
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chamber Cases are scummy
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chamber Cases are scummy
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chamber Cases are scummy
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chamber Cases are scummy
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chamber Cases are scummy
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chamber Cases are scummy
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Mostly? Responding in abstracts rather than specifics is a classic tell. (abstracts are unchanging and can be your actual town thoughts, after all)In post 65, VitaminR wrote:As in: the response was in the abstract rather than talking about what the vote was concretely supposed to do in this game? Meh.
Unvote Vote seolTaking a break from the site.-
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chamber Cases are scummy
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chamber Cases are scummy
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chamber Cases are scummy
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I've made like 3 points this game, and I'm pretty sure you've agreed with 2 of them, not 1.In post 102, Sotty7 wrote:Your Chamber vote is pretty good though. The only thing I have agreed with so far with him was his criticisms of post #54.Taking a break from the site.-
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chamber Cases are scummy
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You can make links to specific posts using thetag.Code: Select all
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Taking a break from the site.-
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chamber Cases are scummy
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chamber Cases are scummy
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I wont construct a list for him, but there are a couple obvious standouts for me, and there is also an obvious divide between those that were actively recruited because they were respected in their day, and those that were simply still around (which isn't to say that actively playing for 6-10 years isn't it's own selection pressure, but then most of that class wasn't active the whole time~).Taking a break from the site.-
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chamber Cases are scummy
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I still have tigris as a scum suspect, but I have no experience with tigris, and it easily could be a matter of style clouding my reasoning, as I myself pointed out and as you acknowledged. It -could- have been me laying the ground work to back off the wagon if it didn't come together, but it did come together and I backed off anyway. I actually know and respect Seol's play, and its because of that respect that I'm more comfortable voting for him when I see him do something that stands out.Taking a break from the site.-
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This is also odd. What does it being page 2 have to do with anything?In post 128, CrashTextDummie wrote:It's incredibly severe in its wording for page 2 ("screams scum")Taking a break from the site.-
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Like, individual points giving me different gut scummieness reads are going to give me the same feelings independent of when they are said (Not to be confused with independent of context~).
It would be odd to claim that I had an extremely strong scum read on her that early, but I think that's the opposite of what I actually said.Taking a break from the site.-
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How is the frequency with which I stand by my statements a viable metric for the strength of my read? The only thing that measures is how often I'm questioned on them.In post 128, CrashTextDummie wrote:VitR challenged him on this and he defended his position on two occasions,Taking a break from the site.-
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chamber Cases are scummy
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Fairly often? I find scum are most prone to making mistakes when there is no set statusquo for how they should be acting or reacting to things. The beginning of day 1 is such a time.In post 134, Glork wrote:How often does something posted on Page 2 give that strong of scum feeling to you?
Rhetoric, as a tool for discovering peoples alignments, its of very limited value. They should be making a conscious effort to lay off it.In post 134, Glork wrote:But if we're being honest about things, I'd venture that a majority of players here are prone to (over)use of rhetoric.Taking a break from the site.-
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chamber Cases are scummy
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This was a joke by him, he was being selective. He meant that I'm obvious town, not obvious scum.In post 156, MafiaSSK wrote:Not only does he keep his tunnel, but just look at that first sentence. "Chamber's alignment is farily obvious". So why not vote him if you agree with him?Taking a break from the site.-
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... really?In post 179, Green Crayons wrote:Back in Post 47, why did you feel the need to state that your style could be unorthodox as a response to CTD's query about what you wanted to learn from your not-main-bandwagon vote on MafiaSSK? It seems to be a strange non sequitur in light of what CTD was asking.Taking a break from the site.-
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This VitR stuff is getting dragged out way too long. I hate when people snipe my questions to other players, so make a conscious effort not to do so myself, but I agreed with VitRs stated thoughts that you are getting so bent over (at least in the general, it lead me to Seol instead of LML) and I suspected many others did too, including most of those with me on Seol.Taking a break from the site.-
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chamber Cases are scummy
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chamber Cases are scummy
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chamber Cases are scummy
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chamber Cases are scummy
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This is a scum post.In post 211, Albert B. Rampage wrote:
It's the beginning of the game, voting based on "theory crafting" is superior to randomly. We will gain more insight into the game with long bandwagons, determined very arbitrarily for the most part, and the quality of which will shape the outcome of the rest of the game.In post 210, Glork wrote:Incidentally, I am SUPER DUPER AMUSED that people are crying foul at MafiaSSK's "big wagons good" theory, whenat the time he referred to my wagon as "almighty" he jumped AWAY from it, thereby creating a greater spread of votes.
Like, this wagon is legit based on nothing SSK did to actually hurt the game, and just on his theory crafting.Taking a break from the site.-
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Things are only insulting if you want them to be. There are perfectly harmless ways to interpret what he said. The most likely being that he didn't have the drive to catch up in that moment and intended to focus more on interactions going forward.In post 244, petroleumjelly wrote:This is insulting. If you don't want to read the game, please replace out. There are others who would be happy to take your slot.
Why did you feel the need to telegraph a potential vote change?In post 244, petroleumjelly wrote:FoS: Albert B. Rampage. May switch my vote soon.Taking a break from the site.-
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I feel like I've gotten a lot better since I last played with most of you (perhaps untrue~) and because of that I'm trying not to hold MafiaSSK to my memory of him. With that said, if I were going only off my memory of his play, he would be the weakest player in this game. Beyond that, if he had done anything I found remarkable, I would have remarked on it.Taking a break from the site.-
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chamber Cases are scummy
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And that's rather silly of you.In post 298, undo wrote:@chamber: Still expecting an answer to my question about ABR.Taking a break from the site.-
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I'm not really sure how I feel. There have certainly been some things that bothered me. I've refrained from speaking about them because I'm hoping town LML will self correct when/if he stops being pressured so much.In post 317, VitaminR wrote:chamber, how do you read LML's recent posts? I need a second opinion.Taking a break from the site.-
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chamber Cases are scummy
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chamber Cases are scummy
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Its unfair to give this possibility inherently even weight. Its true that in the case of the weak player being scum the strong player would need to attack them to get them lynched, but its also true that when town the weak player is going to make an attractive target for attack. Its more likely that any given player is town than scum, so its still completely fair to treat this as a scum tell, especially when he (and I) don't really see the same scummieness that you did.In post 297, petroleumjelly wrote:Even assuming I did believe there are a few "weak" players in the game, then if a "weak" player is scum, pretty much the only way they are going to get lynched is if they are attacked by the other "strong" players.Taking a break from the site.-
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I already told you plainly that CES was saying that I was town with that statement. It was more said for comedic effect more than anything else. Stop being so damn boring.In post 341, undo wrote:Meanwhile, I just wanted to note for the record that CES has implied he thinks chamber is scum, and chamber has implied he thinks ABR is scum, but both appear to be reluctant to elaborate on those suspicions.Taking a break from the site.-
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chamber Cases are scummy
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What did you think of his comment about me?In post 320, chamber wrote:
I'm not really sure how I feel. There have certainly been some things that bothered me. I've refrained from speaking about them because I'm hoping town LML will self correct when/if he stops being pressured so much.In post 317, VitaminR wrote:chamber, how do you read LML's recent posts? I need a second opinion.Taking a break from the site.-
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chamber Cases are scummy
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chamber Cases are scummy
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chamber Cases are scummy
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chamber Cases are scummy
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made* not bad. <_<.In post 357, chamber wrote:Where your notes bad before you replaced in? Were they made with the primary intention for your personal use or for display to the thread?Taking a break from the site.-
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chamber Cases are scummy
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chamber Cases are scummy
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In post 278, LoudmouthLee wrote:his mirrored my thinking exactly. I'm currently a fan of chamber's play, and have him pro-town.Taking a break from the site.-
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chamber Cases are scummy
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I think saying this, unqualified, when someone is disagreeing isn't likely to help alleviate the confusion. I agree with the meaning of the statement, but its specific types of consistency that are scummy, and those types of consistency are, in ways, a lack of other types of consistency.In post 403, VitaminR wrote:Consistency is totally a scum tell.
Everyone's actions should be reasonably consistent from their POV. So when you say consistency is a scum tell I think you mean one of the following two things:
They generate reads early, and stick with them for too long/ the whole game. Reads should naturally be changing with new info, and humans are biased towards putting more weight on recent events, so reads not changing is weird.
There is always a trail of bread crumbs explaining all of their changes of thought. This trail of thought breadcrumbs should exist for townies, but townies don't always state everyone of their thoughts, it wont be explicit. This is what I think you and yos meant.Taking a break from the site.-
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I'm not going to pretend to be able to read DGB for shit, cause I can't, but she always starts off thinking I'm town then finds reasons to suspect me. This is nothing new.In post 463, Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:I didn't really like the way she suggested chamber might be "TOO chipper".Taking a break from the site.-
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You know my tagline isn't sarcastic right?In post 466, Bookitty wrote:
Hey, Glork! And thank goodness, no.In post 461, Glork wrote:Bookitty hi! Are you scum?
I think vote count analyses are mostly useful later in the game. However, they are great tools for town because they are based on facts, not theory. While you and I might look at the same VCA and derive different conclusions, we're going to have the same facts. So while I don't agree with LML's vote on Untrod Tripod (try saying that fast, yikes) I don't think LML is scummy for having provided information, arriving at some conclusions and placing a vote based on those conclusions.
@PetroleumJelly: In a game this size with this many players, wouldn't it make more sense NOT to put in the effort to do that analysis if LML was scum? I think it would be pretty easy to blend in with the pack and not make too many waves. VCA data is verifiable by town and can be used throughout the game to catch scum, though I think it's really not that useful until later. Why would scum make an effort to tell the truth to town when they could generally just coast? This line of argument seems fabricated and could be used against anyone, town or scum, who put in effort to provide data. To paraphrase chamber's tagline, it's as if you're saying "content is scummy."
UNVOTE:
VOTE: PetroleumJellyTaking a break from the site.-
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chamber Cases are scummy
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Did you actually think through this question before asking it?In post 483, Green Crayons wrote:how is voting a player who "hadn't had any attention whatsoever" mutually exclusive with scum play?Taking a break from the site.-
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It's a stupid question because, short of single-handedly getting multiple scum lynched, no actions are mutually exclusive with scum play. Looking at the game from that perspective is just dumb.In post 483, Green Crayons wrote:how is voting a player who "hadn't had any attention whatsoever" mutually exclusive with scum play?Taking a break from the site.-
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I've been coasting since the week break ended, so my thoughts on him haven't developed much. I found his vote analysis odd in its lack of context, like most of you. But unlike most of you, it seemed very deliberate to me. I assumed it was a play quirk and intend to check his VCA history but have yet to do so.
preview edit: No, it doesn't. You aren't considering the implications of the way you are negating it, which is why I asked what I asked initially.Taking a break from the site.-
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This is what I don't get about you. You recognize the fact that 'no actions are mutually exclusive with scum play', yet instead of assuming glork isn't a moron, you assume he is one. You've done that multiple times. You did it with me once, only to make the same point I was (the non stupid form of it, unlike you assumed of me) when you reread.In post 494, Green Crayons wrote:So we disagree about what Glork basically said.
I think it's clear that Glork basically said that LML's vote of UT is an exception to the general rule that "no actions are mutually exclusive with scum play" -- that is, that Glork basically said that LML's vote of UT is town because scum would not have motivation for taking such action.
If Glork was saying "that isn't evidence that LML is scum," then he would have addressed the aspect of LML's play that people had highlighted as suspicious: using voting patterns out of context. That would be challenging the evidence of whether LML is scum. That is not what Glork did in Post 428.
On the other hand, if Glork was saying "this action is mutually exclusive with scum play," he would have set aside the suspicious aspect of the action particular to the circumstances (Glork did this by setting aside PJ's notation of LML's use of voting patterns without context), and he would have challenged there being any type of scum motivation for the action in the abstract (Glork did this). This would be defining the action, in and of itself, as town.
This is an oldy game, for the most part everyone in it is pretty competent, give them the benefit of the doubt when interpreting what they are saying.Taking a break from the site.-
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Confirmation bias. I found her posts weird prior to realizing she replaced seol, and after learning that was just like, eh weird probably means scum then.In post 499, VitaminR wrote:chamber, what is your issue with Bookitty? I feel like she's been pretty on the money with her posts about PJ (especially Post 495 is basically exactly why I'm voting PJ).Taking a break from the site.-
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She repeats herself a little too much, which I always find suggests nervousness (but town can be intimidated too), but also she's talking about the objective facts in VCA like they matter somehow? Or that it matters that LML was the one to gather the data at least? But the entire game is just disagreeing interpretations about facts. PJ doesn't think 'content is scummy', he thinks this specific implementation of the content is scummy. Its just -odd-.In post 466, Bookitty wrote:I think vote count analyses are mostly useful later in the game. However, they are great tools for town because they are based on facts, not theory. While you and I might look at the same VCA and derive different conclusions, we're going to have the same facts. So while I don't agree with LML's vote on Untrod Tripod (try saying that fast, yikes) I don't think LML is scummy for having provided information, arriving at some conclusions and placing a vote based on those conclusions.
@PetroleumJelly: In a game this size with this many players, wouldn't it make more sense NOT to put in the effort to do that analysis if LML was scum? I think it would be pretty easy to blend in with the pack and not make too many waves. VCA data is verifiable by town and can be used throughout the game to catch scum, though I think it's really not that useful until later. Why would scum make an effort to tell the truth to town when they could generally just coast? This line of argument seems fabricated and could be used against anyone, town or scum, who put in effort to provide data. To paraphrase chamber's tagline, it's as if you're saying "content is scummy."Taking a break from the site.-
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Isn't this counter to your 'consistency is scummy' theory?In post 568, Yosarian2 wrote:the whole exchange...made me uncomfortable. If he actually thought Tigris's initial posting was scummy, even if it was only slightly so, then it's weird for him to make basically excuses for keep his vote on Tigris like that. Is there really some line on page 5 where "X is scummy enough for a FOS, but you have to do Y to be scummy enough for a vote?Taking a break from the site.-
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The very first sentence is literally an unqualified position on Tigris.In post 566, Bookitty wrote:Chamber looks bad for Post 130. It’s like he’s about to approach an actual position on TigrisTaking a break from the site.-
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This is a pretty big scumtell for me, but at this point I'm so wrapped in confirmation bias, can someone else confirm that they see it?In post 643, Bookitty wrote:chamber - this is weak for me. I go back and forth on it; I haven't played with chamber that I remember and I can't get any handle on his playstyle. Some things looked really scummy to me but I can't actually recall them now (I'm sure it's in my PBPA, though, for later.)Taking a break from the site.