I agree with that.
SUPP 2017 MAFIA: COMPLETE
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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I had the opposite reaction... I struggled to follow his thinking in 62, and 64 felt more defensive than I'd have expected from a townie - plus townhunting is a lot easier to fake so it's precisely the sort of thing that lots of scum'd be self-conscious about. Why'd it feel town to you?In post 71, DeasVail wrote:I liked the way that he presented his thoughts in 62 and I like the combination of his in-game townhunting approach while also engaging in non-game related conversation.-
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Why Taly? Feels town to me.In post 88, Fire Assassin wrote:If I was handing out scum points right now I would have Espeonage and Taly taking the most.-
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Why's it "too dumb" for scum to try? What's your read on Screen's intent with 105?In post 158, MariaR wrote:105 isn't something scum screenplay says imo it's too dumb a gambit to try but his reaction to it was pretty good imo. I dislike Dan jumping on it
I liked Dan's jump. I glimpsed over 105 without thinking much but Dan paused to give it more thought in a way that feels pretty town. I don't see scum reading as much into 105 as Dan did.-
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It's provable via rankings.In post 167, Chara wrote:plenty of reasons to not. why would you? we don't know your role and claiming day 1 without reason is pointless.-
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Is this based on their role claims or behaviors?
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I don't know what that is.In post 186, Srceenplay wrote:I’m sure it’s just TMI.
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Why scumread him?In post 188, Srceenplay wrote:Only one faction has TMI.
So I’m shading him and calling him scum because the only reason he has them as town is because he knows they re town. Ask him to explain it more in PT.-
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I don't think Screen believes what he's saying.In post 199, Taly wrote:Do you think Screen was being serious? lol, this question sounds much sassier than intended, btw.
The only game I've played with him is when he was town, and he made similar BS-type posts that made little sense. That's not enough to warrant a confident townlean from him, but with his recent posts bringing up scum possibilities, I think this is Screen at least appearing to be pro-town... by his standards.
Maria's response to that concerns me.-
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Yes.In post 205, Taly wrote:Chara essentially agreed with her sentiments 175, are you concerned about that too?-
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Are you looking for scum?In post 248, Vaxkiller wrote:I have 0 reads.-
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What claim? The "wang" thing? I thought that was a joke...In post 254, Vaxkiller wrote:As far as WHY to start with thebrawlguy, I feel he his claim/fake claim had TMI in it, and if its real, it HAS to be a scum role and I think he didnt think it through very well.-
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That's boring. Any other reads?In post 253, Pine wrote:I just read the first half of the game on my lunch break. I concur that Penguin looks like scum-
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I don't think his case is misreppy... I had similar thoughts about your play re: 142 and earlier posts, but I agree that his interpreatation of the "pseudolynch" bit reeks of bias.In post 311, TehBrawlGuy wrote:I feel like it's pretty blatantly misreppy with the things I addressed in my last post, and that pings me pretty hard, but there's an amount of internal frustration/omgus there that makes biased. I'm trying to sort if this is town!dv getting overeager and viewing all my posts under his own tinted lens, or if it's scum!dv just trying to bury me-
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At least half the questions you ask give me the sense that you're not thinking very deeply about why players do things before you ask the question.In post 332, Taly wrote:DV, now that my tunnel onTBG and PPhas temporarily calmed down; what was youroriginalplan?
And what aboutChange of plan. The time is actually now! (Plans to do something else ended up falling through)TBGmade you change that thought process?-
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That's surprising. What'd you find compelling about it?In post 331, Srceenplay wrote:
I’m rethinking my read on him now because of it.In post 311, TehBrawlGuy wrote:someone who isn't me, give me your thoughts on 307-
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The Screen questions were okay... though it's odd that you're confused about the direction of Screen's change given Screen's word choice ("rethinking").In post 336, Taly wrote:But since you want to talk about questions, do you think the ones I posed to Screen and DV are valid?
And what are your thoughts on Screen, DV, and TBG at the moment?
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The DV question was silly... it shows incredibly superficial thinking about DV's post. Like, DV had just posted that he'd have to explain his thoughts later - then he says "change of plan," explains in parenthesis what changed, and expresses his thoughts - and you wonder what the "change of plan" refers to? It's like you see the words "change of plan," ignore everything else DV wrote, and question him about it without taking into account any of the context that gives those words meaning.
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As I said, I'm surprised by Screen's response to 307 - but I'm not saying more about this until I Screen answers our questions.
DV's probably town - even though I disagree with some what he's saying there's a very clear thought process underlying his analysis, plus I don't think he'd have pushed TBG so strongly if he were scum.
TBG has hints of town/scum. Earlier in the game I got scum vibes but the more I analyze his posts the more I see town - his suggestion that we structure our votes around roles felt scummy at first, for example, but on second thought it actually seems pretty ballsy a thing for scum to suggest plus it's the sort of thing I've seen town suggest before... I also liked TBG's response to 307 - feeling irritated that DV's mischaracterizing him is precisely how a townie would feel when accused so strongly (DV put nearly all of TBG posts in a bad light), and asking for others to weigh in instead of letting his own biases cloud his thoughts felt town.-
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You think your question to DV wasn't "silly"? Explain.In post 468, Taly wrote:The more people tell me my questions are "silly" or "fake", the less I view them as pro-town.-
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Why 4? Who's lower?In post 462, Dunnstral wrote:you can have a 4 though mariar-
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What were your original thoughts on the actual content of 307?In post 476, Srceenplay wrote:When I first read through it looked like some time and thought was put into that big post. So maybe I was wrong.-
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Dunn, I'd like an answer to this:
In post 470, Shoshin wrote:
Why 4? Who's lower?In post 462, Dunnstral wrote:you can have a 4 though mariar-
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This "rollercoaster from a six to a four to a five" feels fake.In post 552, Punreader wrote:Vaxkiller: Vaxkiller also has gone on a rollercoaster in my reads, from a six to a four before I settled on five. To some extent, he Vaxes me; I don't have a reliable way of reading his contribution. However, some of his pushes, while containing some...questionable...reasoning, look like they are genuinely going in the right direction. Not a killer-strong read, but enough that I want to keep him in the game longer.-
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I also don't like how Pun's rankings -- 10, 8, 8, 8, 6, 6, 6, 5, 5, 5, 5, 4, 4, 3, 2, 2, 0 -- don't match up to the actual rankings -- 10, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 6, 5, 5, 4, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0, 0, 0 -- seems like a very unnatural way to think about the game if you're actually trying to sort reads into a meaningful rankings list.-
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What're your top 3 scumreads/townreads at the moment?In post 572, Srceenplay wrote:Engage with me.-
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Why is Maria a 4?In post 571, Dunnstral wrote:
Nico can have a 1 for being useless, Vax can get a 0 for being my quest and being scummy anyway, other than that I don't know, and don't know if revealing a lot of #'s is even a good ideaIn post 566, Shoshin wrote:Dunn, I'd like an answer to this:
In post 470, Shoshin wrote:
Why 4? Who's lower?In post 462, Dunnstral wrote:you can have a 4 though mariar-
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Dunn's one of the players who hasn't said enough for me to read yet, so when he finally took a position about someone (you), I asked him about it. He didn't answer and the other reads he mentioned were really boring so I'm pressing more with hopes of reading Dunn (plus maybe refining my read on you).In post 577, MariaR wrote:Also why did you ask about my names out of all of these-
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I thought your reads changed based on new information, but I guess not... What's your read on Pun/Pine? Why is PP town?In post 578, Srceenplay wrote:Didn’t I just give this?-
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Beer rots the brain, but otherwise that's a good idea. From what I gather, there's quite a few folks ranking you low so if you're town you really need to post enough thoughts for us to read you better.In post 606, Srceenplay wrote:I need to get on a computer in a bit. Grab a beer and try to get some more detailed thoughts down.-
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Taly, if you have an updated reads list, I'd like to see it. Also, I'm confused by the whole "reads don't equal rankings" warning plus your bit about lying - I'm guessing you're worried about scum manipulation of rankings but that's not helpful - our #1 goal needs to be finding the scum, not preventing scum manipulation, and that means posting honestly and as much information as necessary to help us identify you (or whoever) as town (or scum). I mean, at this point it's fairly clear you're not dying tonight, but still, don't set a bad example for others who we really need to post more and to post honestly.-
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Helpful observation.In post 608, Nahdia wrote:I think, as scum, the wouldn't have pussyfooted around claiming for so long. They woulda just done it or not. If they wanted to deliberate on whether they should or not, they'd ask their scumteam (just checked; scum are confirmed to have daytalk).-
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I disagree about apathy being a problem - if you're widely read as town and have confidence in your reads, then maybe you'll get apathetic, but so what? There's some players who aren't widely read as town (so they're going to have incentive to post more thoughts) and some players who don't have confidence about their reads (so they're going to continue actively scumhunting), and that means there's still a lot of meaningful discussion to be had. And if a few players who don't care want to zone out for a couple pages while the rest of us try to figure things out from our perspectives, I don't see why you'd be against that? At bottom, it's pro-scum to cut off discussion when there's still a lot left to analyze/discuss as it's the scum who benefit from ending things early - it certainly takes the pressure off them to keep contriving posts.-
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Why?In post 628, PenguinPower wrote:Town for today.-
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I'm probably giving her a 0 or 1. Her reads/rankings don't make sense + she's openly lying about them so that we can't even question her about it. Or put another way, her reads are fake and she's intentionally obscuring her alignment. On top of that, she immediately jumped onto Nadhia's suggestion to end the day, which is precisely how I see scum responding to that suggestion if made by town (and, yes, I'm reading Nahdia as town here - for reasons that should be apparent to anyone reading the game).In post 630, PenguinPower wrote:Why not?-
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I didn't say Nahdia's town for suggesting early end; Nahdia's done other things that make me think she's town. Maria's done things that are scummy, and her desire to end the day is consistent with reading her as scummy, especially since she wasn't the initial person to suggest ending early. I think scum want to end early but aren't typically going to say so because they're worried it might be seen as scummy - they're self-conscious about appearing to want to shut down a meaningful discussion because it's very easy for that to be taken as scummy, whereas a townie who genuinely believes we should end early would just say it, the way I think Nahdia did.In post 633, PenguinPower wrote:I'll probably bump her up a bit then. Why is Nahdia town for suggesting early end but Maria scum for agreeing with it?
You should probably stop treating this day phase as a typical mafia game.
To be clear, I'm not treating this day phase like a normal game. It's actually why I think ending the day here isn't the right play. The rankings system puts more pressure than normal on scum to be read as town because our collective intelligence via rankings could plausibly lead to scum deaths in situations where we wouldn't ordinarily be able to get a consensus on a scum lynch - so this isn't a typical situation where people care only about who they're lynching - here, every ranking matters so figuring out your top suspect 0s doesn't mean it's time to stop refining reads because the difference between a 9 and 10 might actually be the difference between who dies. I think the desire to end the day here comes more from a scum mindset than a town one because scum are under a lot of pressure to avoid dying, while town have lots of incentive to refine their reads as precisely as possible. In terms of gameplay, I think scum have every reason to try taking advantage of the system by "lying" about reads and claiming it's because of "scum manipulation," whereas townies aren't interested in "lying," they're interested in finding the scum and refining reads to the best extent possible.-
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Is this to counteract my read? Please explain why she's town. From your response, I figured you just didn't have any reason to suspect her, but this makes it seem like you affirmatively think she's town and want to protect her.In post 633, PenguinPower wrote:I'll probably bump her up a bit then.-
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I had a similar thought when I saw the vig claim.In post 670, Pine wrote:Ummm, so at peril of falsely giving off the classic “Hunting the SK” scumtell, it occurs to me that PR’s claim would be perfect third party. Are we confirmed not to have one?-
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Why do you want to die? Weird.In post 686, PenguinPower wrote:
This.In post 666, Pine wrote:Still comfortable nuking both PP and PR-
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You're that certain he's scum?In post 690, PenguinPower wrote:If it results in nuking Pun I’m happy.-
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His reads list feels pretty fake, for reasons I've mentioned. He makes it seem like he's been tracking rankings very carefully (e.g. Vax moving from 6 to 4 to 5) yet his rankings don't correspond with the actual rankings so the whole thing seems pretty fake. Like, what's the point of tracking rankings to that degree of precision but using a meaningless spectrum of rankings instead of the correct one? Thoughts?In post 696, the worst wrote:There is a voice in the back of my head that kinda hates how PR claimed. the rest of their posting also feels pretty surface level and busyworky. anyone wanna talk to me about PR?-
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Most of the players you're not ranking aren't lurky at all...In post 725, Pine wrote:I started trying to score people earlier based on reads, but there's just a giant gulf in the middle because half the playerlist is lurky as fuck.-
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Maria over PP because I was slightly more suspicious of her on D1 and it sort of carried over into D2. But PP's rankings don't look like the rankings of a townie, so I'm open to lynching there (as I've indicated).In post 960, Taly wrote:Why Maria and not PP or Vax?
And what do you think about the DV and Fire votes on Espe?
DV called Esp town yesterday, right? I'd be curious to hear about where the townread came from and why he changed his mind, but otherwise the votes on Esp are fine. I haven't liked Esp's posting today and I don't mind seeing pressure there.-
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970 is scummy for the same reasons that PP's willingness to die was scummy - it's sort of a self-destructive appeal to emotion that scum often use to manipulate townies because some townies mistakenly think that scum care too much about self-preservation to ever express a willingess to die or to suggest that their play shouldn't be townread. The reality is very different. Townies sometimes exhibit paranoia about strong townreads, but they don't categorically scumhunt the people who are townreading them in the way PP is. I find it very difficult to believe that a townie would say to themselves, "I'm not town enough to be read as town and thus the people townreading me are likely scum." I don't think PP's posting squares with a townie's perspective on the game, but if you look at PP's posting from a scum perspective, everything falls into place. Scum know that anyone who townreads them is wrong, which means those players are easier to mislynch because there's bound to be problems with their logic. The entire way PP's playing is very manipulative, it doesn't cohere with a townie's mindset, and it makes perfect sense as scum. So, yeah, I'd lynch him for 970, and I'd lynch him for his willingness to die to make sure Pun dies too.