Overkill 1: Serenity/Firefly (GAME OVER)

[Reasonably Rational]

Hello everyone.

NSG is my mason buddy

Plausible by flavor. Implausible by play. Plausible because RC would know that it would be considered implausible by play, and thus COULD do it as a real mason, knowing it wouldn't be believed by anyone, and would generate interesting reactions.

*shrug*

Conclusion: Ignore pending NSG response, which, imo, shouldn't actually happen. Yeah.

NSG: Don't respond to that shiz if you're town. If you're scum, fuck it, feel free to do whatever the fuck scum do.

Why would I not beleive it unless North denied it?

I'm trying too get my leads here, RC. If a Mason feels like claiming, no reason to not believe yet.

Yeah, I don't really agree with this line of reasoning. D1 mason claim, at the very start of the day, ESPECIALLY from a player who's been around the block and plays loose with the truth as town...doesn't seem like someone someone should automatically assume is true.

Do you automatically believe every claim made early on D1? If I had opened the day with "I'm a cop(or hell, any investigative other than nearly useless shit ones), please protect me" would you actually believe that to be the case?

it's a new player thinking new player things I'm almost sure

but why would you be almost sure of this? why would elsa jay -not- do this as scum? because i'm fairly sure even he would say this is p much exactly what his scum game would look like

I never said that believing your claim was towny. I said it was not scummy. I said elsa's posts outside of that part are towny, and I'm townreading him tonally when he is concerned people are voting you.

just re-read what I said to you.

RC, level of familiarity with Elsa Jay?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Well I tried.

Anyway, voting up a dude who claimed to be in a Masonry?

Now admittedly, because this is (probably) Multiball he COULD theoretically be scum. But voting him?

VOTE: Malakittens

Obviously you COULD be joking, but this seems like a decent start.

Also, umm.

This is a pretty shit vote too.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

it's a new player thinking new player things I'm almost sure

hes not new though

but i give you a 10/10 for effort though

if he is not new, he is not from a time where people opened with fake claims, or he wouldn't react like he did regardless of alignment.

He is from that time. He's also from a time of RC fake claiming as either alignment.

Particularly bad is that RC claimed masons with NSG who he can read accurately very well...but he did it before she posted, so rather than the mason claim coming from a towny POV where one town player tries to save another, it's more likely to come from early game self-preservation that shows TMI on NSGs alignment, if it's a fake claim.

So either it's a fake scum claim or the claim is real.

A goid way to find out is to pressure the claimant (hence mala is town) or let it play out (hence elsa is scum for intercepting the reactions to votes and assuming it's true, taking a particularly LAMIST approach).

Or it's town RC doing town RC things that don't actually make sense to anyone but RC!

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

anyway see you later.

ultra mega dayvig: reasonably rational

drixx scares me sry you have to go

!! Must answer my question before you kill us!!!!!



I'm not scary? Boo. I knew there was a reason I kept Drixx around...

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

i was mostly announcing my intent to sheep NSG if I end up townreading her.

I figured but I'm coming from the viewpoint on page 1 that everyone is arguing over.

Really? Pray tell, what is the value in you analyzing how that post appeared on page 1, while ignoring how you actually took it? Did you take it that way on page 1 yourself, when you first read it? Or was this a position you developed as the conversation about that post developed?

-Cerb

pedit: Mala says things that may be true, thus my question to RC about their experience with Elsa!

[Reasonably Rational]

My presence has already divided this crew asunder.

Yet they decide to go for Tora instead of me.

Humans are strange creatures.

P-edit: I played a different meta, with different circumstances, and NOBODY ever claimed d1 besides weird shit like jester (Not_Mafia) or

generally trolling

. You didnt make it obvious it was a troll.

Ive been playing in Open/Semi-Open setups, as well as Micro games. Very different from this. My few Normal games attest that I need to learn more about stuff like this.

Calling it scummy is just weird as heck though.

PP-Edit: not in any real capacity. He replaced a Mod in one of my games and may have been in a hyrda? Don't remember.

Since claiming mason isn't "weird shit" why wouldn't you assume it was a troll? Please explain how you came from this position and arrived at the conclusion you're claiming about the likely veracity of RC's initial claim.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I'm not defending anyone, I'm just giving my thoughts on the game

I find the scumreads on elsa pretty odd and like the people doing so should know better

Do you view what I'm saying so far as expressing a scumread?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I'm not defending anyone, I'm just giving my thoughts on the game

I find the scumreads on elsa pretty odd and like the people doing so should know better

Do you view what I'm saying so far as expressing a scumread?

-Cerb

you wouldn't be questioning elsa if you weren't pinged by him, but I was talking about RC and malakittens. I like how both progressed with their posting and I like RC townreading mala after mala's big post about elsa that I also thought was towny.

Untrue, I question everything, but okay. Noted.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

this is what my reaction looks like when I don't think I'm at threat of being mislynched.

Bullshit.

I actually agree with RC's appraisal of themselves....

Ducky...since when did you try so hard?

It's me, CheekyTeeky. They're trying to impress me.



Real talk though, I was planning on going super hard on D1 for once and my motivation has completely disappeared with the whole multiple conversations held simultaneously with different people and general not actually gamesolving really thing that was going on earlier.

RC, can we call a preemptive truce before Drixx gets online and probably finds a reason to scumread you(not because he's inclined to scumread you, but because he's paranoid) so that way the two of us don't absolutely destroy the thread with noise?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

you can't mislynch me this game.

if drixx wants to tunnel me your slot will die.

I mean.

This can be interpreted as one of two ways.

1) You're wrong.
2) you're scum(therefore you can't be mislynched, and a tunnel will result in you killing us.

^^

but...I guess I should take that as a...maybe? I don't know. It was a very aggressive answer. :-/
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

It's me, CheekyTeeky. They're trying to impress me.

it-- it's true...

<3

Okay, no more fluffy useless posting from me. Last one I swear.
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Are these "make the person who isn't posting post" votes? If so, i can support that.

VOTE: Skygazer

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

anyway her last few posts are better.

welcome aboard

yup

Are you agreeing with him?

yeah I thought that post nsg made scumreading flicker was scummy, but when she reiterated RC should "wait" on his read and what she'd do as scum instead, I really feel that comes from town!nsg quite often. her self meta feels genuine too. she doesn't post as scum and would wait for RC to choke himself instead of arguing with him and being ITT like she is, at least from what I know of her scum game.

Then why didn't you unvote her?

I need to pay more attention on my reads. Hopefully Drixx will do a more thorough reading later, but yeah, I missed this.

How significant is this Toranaga? Does scum!nsg never do this?

-Cerb

pedit:@CheekyTeeky: How do you feel about me!

[Reasonably Rational]

hrm Cerby you read different here to Heroes Wanted. why is that?

this is what my reaction looks like when I don't think I'm at threat of being mislynched.

Bullshit.

I actually agree with RC's appraisal of themselves....

Ducky...since when did you try so hard?

It's me, CheekyTeeky. They're trying to impress me.

Real talk though, I was planning on going super hard on D1 for once and my motivation has completely disappeared with the whole multiple conversations held simultaneously with different people and general not actually gamesolving really thing that was going on earlier.

RC, can we call a preemptive truce before Drixx gets online and probably finds a reason to scumread you(not because he's inclined to scumread you, but because he's paranoid) so that way the two of us don't absolutely destroy the thread with noise?

-Cerb

Bolded would be my guess. I feel weird, tbh. *shrug*

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Guys I'm pretty sure Tor is scum.

Sweet. Does pretty sure mean you always lynch them on this phase and nothing they could say short of a corroborated mason claim might slow you down? If not, what does it mean?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

lit, I was 50% there and 50% the fact that my eyes were gushing fountains of blood for the first 3 day phases of HW

Hmm. Honestly the game was also weird in a way. I just had to make FA townread me on D1, and that was basically what everything I did was meant to do(as well as actually trying to find scum, of course). Closest analogue's would be Bloodborne and Saga Frontier, but in both those cases I had to try to convince the entire town I was one of the towniest people. So yeah. Unique situation.

You should all like...stop posting while I sleep. Thanks, love you all.

Night.

-Cerb

pedit: Cool cheeky. I like the potential skygazer pressure first. Get them up to like 5 votes, over the "pfft this isn't going anywhere" threshold, and see how things play out, and if their response is town, we can check your concerns?

[Reasonably Rational]

what kind of question is that?

Oh, this was directed at me?

It's a question intended wholly to establish the framework under which I should consider the statements made by CheekyTeeky, because I don't believe I've ever played with them, or if I did, it was quite some time ago.

If you're looking for meta, Cheeky, randomidget is your best option in this game. RC would be second, but we haven't played together in some time...but in that time, we've both rolled scum together and been town together(I don't think we've ever had opposing alignments though). NicoRobin has also played with me, but not in awhile, and not a LOT, though the game they did play with me was versus scum me, within the framework of this hydra. TW, Chickadee, and Toranaga all played with me in my most recent game,though I died N1. I've played with Toogeloo before as well, outside of the most recent game(where we both played, but I was dead by the time they arrived), but I don't remember when. I don't think anyone else has played with me in multiple games under these nicks, or had the distinction of playing against scum!me.

-Cerb

p.s. why am I not asleep yet?

[Reasonably Rational]

Guys I'm pretty sure Tor is scum.

why don't you give me a reason? so far you're just calling me scum for nothing

My reason is that I've played enough with you to know you're better than this and you take a more aggressive stance which inadvertently leaves you leading the town. You're sheeping, tmi'ing, and not bouncing reads off me at all, which you do when you think I'm town.

Literally the best reason for a scumread I've ever heard from someone on D1 because people suck at mafia. Well, honestly, the first sentence is something I 100% agree with. I'm not certain the tmi'ing is bad, and I have no idea about the bouncing ideas off you, but yeah. The inadvertent leadership through being vocal and aggressive is in character, and doesn't really seem present yet.

Sorry TW, maybe pressure here first for me kthx.

VOTE: Toranaga

[Reasonably Rational]

WE ARE THE GNOMES THAT SAY NON.

Now 2 people have decided to vote a Mason claim.

I appear to have been put into a ship of crazy people.

Must Update my Captain's log.

Bear in mind RC also claimed to be scum. Can we talk about that? It is definitely conceivable that people would vote for RC day 1. It is doubly so if he also claims scum.

I don't like the AtE in tw's entrance. Like a weird mass-buddying.

Nsg seems townie.

Malak is 100% town for reasons.

The conversation in the middle pages between Cheeky/RC/radically/Tora/Elsa feels off to me. At least one scum there, possibly two. There has definitely been scum-motivated thread inflation going on throughout the game anyway. That part is obvious. I've seen more content in 2 pages than there is in this whole thread. Most of it is petty personal arguing over old reads and an incredibly ovey detailed discussion on Elsa that I'm not sure anyone got anything out of.

RC/Tora are pinging me though can't point to a specific post why. Kinda feel their post count could have been cut in half or even more and they'd have the same level of content

Radically's walls are smaller than they appear.

This is going to be a tough game to read isn't it? Put me with the people who were asleep when all this shit went down.

Also one scum is definitely among the group that didn't post/posted very little. The thread was perfectly fine as it is getting bloated like that. Someone is probably just letting it happen.

VOTE: Tora
Love you.

Tw I'm watching you bud. You ain't winning as scum .

Nsg if you're town I hope we have better synergy than our past.

Pedit - cheeky does seem townie but last time she was town I scumread her I'm pretty sure so I think I might have to look for inverse tells.

Radically...is me, right? Feel free to just refer to us as RR.

And agreed! I am verbose. I'm not sure I agree that there is necessarily scum within that group. Hyperposting is standard for all the members of that group that I'm familiar with, so the thread inflation isn't necessarily scum motivated except insofar as they might not be derailing us from these silly conversations.

The Elsa Jean thing was very useful, fyi.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

toog PM spew thing felt fairly intuitive for me, idk I liked it for town!geloo

Disagree. NAI at best.

Feels like a weird move for scum to make, but it really doesn't feel natural at all. At best it was a town move to just see how people felt about them saying those things.

So yeah. Definitely contrived, motivation unknown.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

And sure TW. I'll agree to whatever you like if you sheep me on the read displayed by the person who you said "vibes so towny" who has made true statements about another slot and the play we should expect from them, statements you should know to be fair expectations based on HW.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

So sad. I ask for no posting while I sleep and end up at L-...3? 4?, this necessitating that I read these pages especially thoroughly.
@two. the toranaga pressure stopped being necessary by the time you actually voted. Do you read through everything before posting/voting, or reply as you go along?

No other real thoughts on the intervening 4 pages at the moment. Elsa Jay's reasons for making votes continue to be questionable, I guess.

Actually. Elsa Jay, do you give a reason for every vote you make when you make it?
Work time, will try to get Drixx in here to play with all of you while I'm busy.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Guys I'm pretty sure Tor is scum.

why don't you give me a reason? so far you're just calling me scum for nothing

My reason is that I've played enough with you to know you're better than this and you take a more aggressive stance which inadvertently leaves you leading the town. You're sheeping, tmi'ing, and not bouncing reads off me at all, which you do when you think I'm town.

Literally the best reason for a scumread I've ever heard from someone on D1 because people suck at mafia. Well, honestly, the first sentence is something I 100% agree with. I'm not certain the tmi'ing is bad, and I have no idea about the bouncing ideas off you, but yeah. The inadvertent leadership through being vocal and aggressive is in character, and doesn't really seem present yet.

Sorry TW, maybe pressure here first for me kthx.

VOTE: Toranaga

Why is this vote the only one not signed by cerb?
Why have we heard the thoughts of only 1 head of the hydra so far?
He agrees he's verbose but like why? How much is he actually saying?

If he was only 1 person I'd be pushing for a hammer already because town or scum flip there is 1000% guarantee scum are on this wagon. But I want to wait for drixx.

Though to be fair hammer here would be a scum claim so L-1 is tempting... but maybe scum still sacrifice themselves for the quickhammer.

Mistake on my part, thank you for catching it. I always sign my posts, and so does Drixx.

As far as why you've only heard the thoughts of one head...because Drixx is fucking lazy? I told him when the game was at 5 pages last night that it was at 5, approaching 6, and he should hurry up and start reading to stay up to date, and he said he'd do so...and I haven't heard from him about the game since then.

...

With regards to being verbose: It's just the way I speak in general. Everything I say is important if you're interested in precision and clear communication, but most people don't care about details and elaboration. They're content with broad strokes statements.

A quickhammer on me...would be unusual, but possible in this playerlist? The only person I'd expect to be naturally inclined to protect me/take umbrage at someone hammering me without cause is random.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Random: There isn't one, there's been a practice in this game of wagoning people for pressure/reactions; this is much the same as far as strength of content to support the stance.

Just unfortunate that it occurred over night and now I'm at work and can't spend the time to really accomplish anything. *shrug*

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

This is my first game with the "scum win when all town is dead" mechanic but in my mind I'm thinking they'd be willing to take more risks as they probably have more power than normal.

This is a very flawed mechanical argument. The lack of a parity win/loss means that town also *must* have a means by which they could remove all scum even when outnumbered by a single faction(or that all scum are essentially SK's, single slots working individually to destroy the Serenity and its crew, which could make sense thematically). In either case, "overpowered" scum are not a necessity. To be fair, it's possible that A50 is simply okay with scum quickhammering a couple days in a row once they achieve parity, and there are no special mechanical things that required this unusual win condition, but I don't think it's likely.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

This is my first game with the "scum win when all town is dead" mechanic but in my mind I'm thinking they'd be willing to take more risks as they probably have more power than normal.

This is a very flawed mechanical argument. The lack of a parity win/loss means that town also *must* have a means by which they could remove all scum even when outnumbered by a single faction(or that all scum are essentially SK's, single slots working individually to destroy the Serenity and its crew, which could make sense thematically). In either case, "overpowered" scum are not a necessity. To be fair, it's possible that A50 is simply okay with scum quickhammering a couple days in a row once they achieve parity, and there are no special mechanical things that required this unusual win condition, but I don't think it's likely.

-Cerb

Right that's fair but I think this additional power to town is a consequence of the setup mechanics and not the root cause.

Like scum are powerful -> they need to kill more -> town can win when outnumbered.


I think the requirement of additional kills is very townsided by itself. There has to be a reason for it. I think you give them power to win because you're mechanically forced to as the mod if you choose to have such a win condition, but I don't think it's the reason for the condition.

I have no proof for this just my speculation on how the setup came to be.

The divided scum idea of yours is interesting and you are absoluteky right that scenario would explain the additional kill requirement, but wouldn't that by itself be strongly in favor of scum? Sure they will shoot/lynch each other eventually but they are also statistically likely to shoot a tonne of townies in the early game. Though I really don't even see that as being likely because the 3 lylo would suck for all 3 remaining players and basically means one person game throws.

Not sure if the divided scum thing is strongly scumsided, depending on how the roles are all set up. It could be though?

Considering the name of the game(Overkill), as well as the fact that River, Mal, Jayne, and Zoe are all town slots that can *easily* be vigs, as well as multiple potential factions that could be considered "scum" and have the ability to kill(The Alliance, Reavers, Jubal Early, and Niska are the strongest contenders for likely scum factions that could also be individual slots, but there are other enemies in the series), makes it really hard for me to figure out if any given setup where all those factors exist and can kill is advantageous for any given faction.

The goal, I assume, is for this to be balanced. All the arguments made about why a game would have this rule come down to that, and one can either assume the moderator did not properly account for these things(though they clearly have, because they implemented additional restrictions on who may die in a given phase, as well as this rule), or that they made a good faith effort to balance things.

So, I'm going to go with they at least tried to balance, and the setup does not innately, grossly, favor any side over the other...at least, not the point where it would pervert the way they play and let them take risks they normally wouldn't(to return to the basis of this particular discussion).

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

VOTE: BuJaber

I don't like how he's shading RR without voting them and trying to push through a lynch so quickly when we have more than 13 days left to make a decision. I also know from having followed much of Secret Hitler that he can seem really towny and reasonable while actually being top scum (i.e. Hitler).

To be fair, I'm at L-2 now, and they expressed awareness of the risk of putting me at L-1.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

VOTE: BuJaber

I don't like how he's shading RR without voting them and trying to push through a lynch so quickly when we have more than 13 days left to make a decision. I also know from having followed much of Secret Hitler that he can seem really towny and reasonable while actually being top scum (i.e. Hitler).

To be fair, I'm at L-2 now, and they expressed awareness of the risk of putting me at L-1.

-Cerb

If, in 10 days or whatever, they don't return to a push on me because they believe that I'm the optimal lynch for what amounts to information purposes, or at least explain exactly why someone else is a superior lynch, in a similar fashion to the way they've said I should be lynched, then you should be suspicious.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Hello folks. Thank you for not throwing out 40 pages in the first 12 hours. I'm still at work but reading up through as I can between active work (Teacher's life, yo!). Probably not going to reply/question as I go because I always find those weird as hell in large games where someone is talking about something 20 pages ago and the answers already happened. But I will be commenting on stuff, especially since we're not 24 hours in but somehow people seem comfortable putting US into day one mislynch range. That's exceedingly reckless, and a bunch of you know us and a couple of you just got done playing a game where you learned better (at least ... when it comes to ME, and you didn't even let ME get a post in before you tried to pressure us, lol).

~D

P.S. - I usually just shorthand sign my posts ~D so you know it's Drixx. Yes I know what ~D looks like. No I'm not trying to insult you.

[Reasonably Rational]

So I wasn't going to do this but the first two pages are pretty interesting.

RC throwing out mason claim on post one is a thing I hate, but it's RC so like I know that I'm not even really going to know if that's legit or part of some angle he's playing. RC's answer to "What level are you playing at" is almost always "At least two higher than you" so there's that. The volume of "I'm town" posts there obviously gonna draw attention. At least as of the first couple pages, I'm feeling town RC there. He definitely has the range and balls to do that as scum but it strikes me as a fantastic way for him to get people responding and giving him info.

Probably a shit ton of talk about that in the pages to come. I've gotta actually do my job for awhile. Back in a bit.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

I don't get the RR wagon. It's far too flimsy to have this many votes.

Thus far, I think every wagon has been flimsy. It's typical day 1 stuff, "thinking is hard, let's kill something and get on to night 1 so I can use my powahz."

I concur that is my thought process.

Maybe you don't have any amazing powers so you want to extend it, but in Multiball, I feel this is the best option anyway. Getting a claim, at least.

We have to look out for anything you know. Even Scum 1 v Scum 2.

On what basis are you going to make decisions about how to utilize your powers if you just rush to night? There is a point of diminishing returns as far as content on D1 is concerned, but that point happens when people stop talking.

Any game that can have 20 pages of RVS in 24 hours needs some dead bodies.
Anyone who doesn't see that is being silly.

We left RVS on post 5 or whatever, whenever RC made his mason claim and people voted him for it. Claiming otherwise is simply disingenuous.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Well, not voting him for it, but basing actions on that particular post and the reactions to it, rather than on nothing(as is the point of RVS..can't be random when there's an actual reason for things).

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

well it's not. there's a ton of information in this thread and some people are strong hitting their town metas so far from what I know of their games. you were making reads here yourself. I don't get your RVS comment, it's wrong and IDK what to make of it. feels like criticizing things for the sake of it.

There's a ton of info, but functionally mining it in a real way is pretty meaningless. It's trash until we get flips. To get flips we need deaths. Ergo - let's move on, or are you claiming we need more than 20 pages of info at this stage to get a flip? Do we need 40? 80? 7,543? All of them have "info" but at what point does town malaise and empty signals overcome the claimed "info" benefit?
I submit it's *WAY* earlier than you think it is.

I disagree that I'm making reads. I'm just trying to get people to say some things so I can make reads later.

You didn't answer my question of why you think I don't believe what I'm saying. You're successfully stating why you believe what you think about the quality of these pages - but I didn't ask that.

I agree with your conclusion here that functionally mining it is useless before flips. However, I maintain that D1 is actually the most important day when it comes to scum hunting, simply because all the positions being held can later be examined with the knowledge provided by flips, and with the least influence on them with regards to how past days have gone. I like large, productive D1's, that people look at on D5...because if you do that, and you've found some scum, you should be able to find the rest from just what was said on that day.

Town malaise sets in when there aren't a variety of different people actively posting and suggesting different courses. Until that happens, this is all valuable.

I'm confused by there only being 3 votes on me...I assume people not using proper vote tags?

With regards to your previous question about my top non-RVS case: I'll let my other head catch up and discuss things with him to see where he stands. His RC position is a valid one that I largely agree with. The logic used by Cheeky to push Toranaga resonates with me still, even if she's been assuaged. I do dislike Elsa's reasons for their votes. Nobody else has done anything that I view as scummy right now. I do need to reread, because as I said before I missed some things previously, so obviously I haven't been as diligent as I'd like.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

So quick run down:

I’m mobile posting at the moment.

Can we explain the wagon on RR?

Also not a big fan of sky or nico’s posting at the moment

@Random: There isn't one, there's been a practice in this game of wagoning people for pressure/reactions; this is much the same as far as strength of content to support the stance.

Just unfortunate that it occurred over night and now I'm at work and can't spend the time to really accomplish anything. *shrug*

-Cerb

if thats the case on RR it really doesnt seem solid in anyway at all
i'm after a convincing argument for rr being scum basically. linking to a post where it was previously explained is fine.

All I know is that I have a vague non-case on him. I'm sorting people by PoE. It's how I usually approach day 1.

He was part of what I consider a conversation that was far too long for imo measly returns. (Elsa discussion)

And now he is getting flashwagoned and I need to see him flip so I know if I'm looking for scum bussing or scum lynching town among the pool of his voters.

So for me it's not that I'm interested in lynching RR specifically, just more of an opportunity to progress the game in a guaranteed positive way.

Not all lynches are equal in their value. This is a pretty valuable lynch.

Pedit: that deserves its own post

@Mala: This is what is there. And yeah, Toog started it because he just didn't like my posting without any specific reasons given, and all the active posters at that moment sheeped.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

OH, and to clarify, the only reason actually given was BuJaber's, who isnt' actually *on* the wagon.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

For the record, I felt the over analysis of the Masonry claim felt forced, which is what gives me the scum vibe from your slot. Was getting that try hard mentality from your slot.

RIGHT! The tryhard thing, sorry for neglecting to mention it. It's something I chose to not respond to, because I decided there was no value in defending myself. :p

Now I just need to find time to do more than just keep up with the game and actually read the last 20 pages again.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

For the record, I felt the over analysis of the Masonry claim felt forced, which is what gives me the scum vibe from your slot. Was getting that try hard mentality from your slot.

Actually, there's a thread to pull here, just not solely about myself.

Do you think scum are more likely to try hard than town, or is this perspective limited to just my slot? What's the basis for this position either way? What's the difference between town analysis and scum tryharding? "Felt forced" is far too vague.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Then let's give someone that power;

Vote:Reasonably Rational

@Mod

20 pages of RVS is objectively untrue and taken by the fact you were drawing leans from page 1, you know this

I'm not insulting you. I'd be insulting you if I didn't take issue with you.

By this point you're now starting to debate a definition with me to take umbrage at my statement, yeah?
What if instead of saying RVS I'd said 'Day 1 blather'? Would your point still hold?
If your answer is no - what's your actual issue here?

With regards to your previous question about my top non-RVS case: I'll let my other head catch up and discuss things with him to see where he stands. His RC position is a valid one that I largely agree with. The logic used by Cheeky to push Toranaga resonates with me still, even if she's been assuaged. I do dislike Elsa's reasons for their votes. Nobody else has done anything that I view as scummy right now. I do need to reread, because as I said before I missed some things previously, so obviously I haven't been as diligent as I'd like.

-Cerb

Blerpity blerp - I'mma saying a lot of nothing here.

So your case is: I sorta agree with some other cases but I'm not caught up and neither is my other head (almost as though 20 pages of derp isn't helpful in a strange and mystical way that some sexy bearded person suggested but I needed to disagree with to try to pretend to look townish).

Got it

No.

I'm fully caught up. 100%. What I haven't done is read through the game hypercritically with the intent of finding suspicious behavior that doesn't immediately jump out at me. I've just been reading along and responding organically, as things come up and occur to me. I independently dislike the reasons Elsa gives for their votes. I agree with Cheeky's statement that I expect town!Toranaga to be vocal and aggressive and accidentally end up leading things. I agree with my other heads only stated position, that RC's early posting is reasonable for town!RC.

Did reiterating this help you understand at all?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

For the record, I felt the over analysis of the Masonry claim felt forced, which is what gives me the scum vibe from your slot. Was getting that try hard mentality from your slot.

Actually, there's a thread to pull here, just not solely about myself.

Do you think scum are more likely to try hard than town, or is this perspective limited to just my slot? What's the basis for this position either way? What's the difference between town analysis and scum tryharding? "Felt forced" is far too vague.

-Cerb

I feel like I should get your opinion on me in general, not just me deciding to be naive and believe the Masonry claim. What other things about me has pinged you?

P-Edit: well, my votes are definitely weird. I plead guilty on that front.

*shrug* That's it. I haven't decided if it's scummy or not. You also haven't answered me about whether or not you always give a reason for votes you make.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

thank goodness A50 isn't here to call me scum for jumping off the RR wagon

Do you think A50 would call RC scum for jumping off my wagon immediately after hopping on?

aren't you usually supposed to give reasons why you vote?

when I don't have one, I do a one-liner.

Okay. What do you mean by doing a one-liner?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

VOTE: NSG

Finally, a united front.

something like that, or my vote on you.

Okay, so your default reason given for jumping on wagons, if you don't have a reason of your own, is to express a desire for solidarity and/or just say you're sheeping the wagon?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

VOTE: NSG

Finally, a united front.

something like that, or my vote on you.

Okay, so your default reason given for jumping on wagons, if you don't have a reason of your own, is to express a desire for solidarity and/or just say you're sheeping the wagon?

-Cerb

I'm trying to be Neutral here and follow the Majority. very simple. No need for a deep Psycho-analysis of it.

I also like to say weird shit.

What does it take for you to take a position of your own? Do you ever go contrary to the general wishes of the town? Do you ever attempt to lead? Is sheeping what I should expect from you for this whole game?

-Cerb

pedit: Thor, honestly, I could make an actual serious case on shit if I wanted to, but I'm a hydra, and Drixx and I LOATHE dissonance. If you ever see us display it, it's a deliberate ploy to get some reacton. I won't give you a strong case on anything without running it by him first. The thread gets the dregs of my thoughts until we decide someone is definitely town, or someone needs to die.

[Reasonably Rational]

VOTE: BuJaber

I don't like how he's shading RR without voting them and trying to push through a lynch so quickly when we have more than 13 days left to make a decision. I also know from having followed much of Secret Hitler that he can seem really towny and reasonable while actually being top scum (i.e. Hitler).

To be fair, I'm at L-2 now, and they expressed awareness of the risk of putting me at L-1.

-Cerb

If, in 10 days or whatever, they don't return to a push on me because they believe that I'm the optimal lynch for what amounts to information purposes, or at least explain exactly why someone else is a superior lynch, in a similar fashion to the way they've said I should be lynched, then you should be suspicious.

-Cerb

Generous of you to give me 10 days. I should hope you'll have your answer sooner.

Tora I can't focus at all right now.. where's the contradiction in Elsa's post?

10 days was more towards the end of the day, as relates to your suspicion of my slot alone. Just saying that they shouldn't be concerned about your lack of a vote given the vote count unless you choose to not commit at a point when further conversation is no longer needed for this day phase.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Not this whole game, Cerb. just until I find the right allies to stick with. right now since Tora is nice Imma be on his side.

since you all might feel it later, I claim Neutral Doctor. apparently with all the kill mechanics I was necessary.

P-Edit: well I might be losing a friend soon. soooo.....

Who wants heals?

...

...

..
..

.
.

What's your win condition? Details.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

For the record, the only thing I'll say in my defense right now(because again, defending against air is a waste of time) is you should probably wait until Drixx says what he has to say at least.

Oh, and I'm absolutely not claiming without his input. So, yeah.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

VOTE: fork

Big guy rolled scum this game

Who is fork? And if I can't figure out who that is, the VC script probably can't either. :-/

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

RR you need to sort out your partner and give some solid unified opinions. Consider this a temporary reprieve.

This makes me not want to actually give you any opinions on principle.

And this is in spite of a decision made by Drixx and myself to actually give reads D1, which is something we NEVER do.

So, eh, fuck yourself. No offense intended.

We'll see what he says. But yeah, that's my initial reaction to that particular demand.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Wait if a hammer is reached by votes but VC script doesn't count it/catch it.. is it a hammer or is the VC the only truth?

Because this sounds like an open invitation for all sorts of fake hammering, voting without voting, and general perception-manipulation

Pretty sure the VC is the only truth, and people should be diligent in checking for those things.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

RR you need to sort out your partner and give some solid unified opinions. Consider this a temporary reprieve.

This makes me not want to actually give you any opinions on principle.

And this is in spite of a decision made by Drixx and myself to actually give reads D1, which is something we NEVER do.

So, eh, fuck yourself. No offense intended.

We'll see what he says. But yeah, that's my initial reaction to that particular demand.

-Cerb

Sweet maybe we should just quick lynch you so we don't have to constantly deal with "wait for drixx this or drixx that" it's annoying af.

That is your prerogative. R

It's also ridiculous for you to be THIS impatient barely 24 hours into the day, particularly when there are people who have literally said nothing.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

That is your prerogative. R

It's also ridiculous for you to be THIS impatient barely 24 hours into the day, particularly when there are people who have literally said nothing.

I think you're misunderstanding. I'm not asking for you to solve this game. I would like to hear your opinions on players while you're here. I know you guys don't want cogdis but whats the point of you posting if we can't see where you stand on people. When I hydra I post my opinions and state them as such. If you're worried about people who have said nothing then make something happen? I may come across as impatient but I just want to say x is town and move on so we can hopefully lynch scum D1.

Then feel free to move on? Nothing is forcing you to focus on me when there are numerous other slots you haven't focused on. *shrug* I'm not worried about people who have said nothing...I'm simply pointing out that you, if you actually read between the lines instead of waiting to be spoonfed things, can EASILY see my stance on numerous slots(at least, the outline of it), which is far more than I'd say you have from *most* of the game.

To be clear, I'm not misunderstanding what you're asking for, I just fail to see the reason for the false urgency. *shrug*

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

To be clear, I'm not misunderstanding what you're asking for, I just fail to see the reason for the false urgency. *shrug*

False urgency? As in I'm pretending to be urgent or that I'm not understanding that there's no need for me to sort people asap?

The second. Contrived would perhaps be a better word.

Ftr your response to me has been the towniest thing you've done so you're welcome.

I couldn't possibly care less what people think about how towny I am. Unless there's a mechanic in play where it matters, there's no benefit to being seen as especially towny as far as I'm concerned. I'm convincing and charismatic enough that when I do have a case strong enough to push, it will happen, and that's all that really matters.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I couldn't possibly care less what people think about how towny I am. Unless there's a mechanic in play where it matters

You mean like getting lynched?

*sigh*

Must you be so fucking obtuse? A mechanic in play that REWARDS PEOPLE FOR BEING ESPECIALLY TOWN. No such mechanic exists here, publicly at least. Give zero fucks about being townread. Barely give a fuck about being lynched.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh, and I suppose since this game has a majority of people who haven't heard this before:

I curse for emphasis. There isn't any emotional reactions occurring in response to, well, pretty much anything stated in the game. Just fyi!

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

morning fam

Hi TW. How is your life, and why did you betray me while I was sleeping?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Whatever the majority desires, dude.

Nothing personal. Unless your trying to hang me, of course.

Speaking of Majority...

ALL PEOPLE MAY BOLD WHO THEY WANT TO BE HEALED. THE ONE WITH THE MOST GETS MY HEAL.

...

Do you think this is likely to make your role effective in preventing kills?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

So I wasn't going to do this but the first two pages are pretty interesting.

RC throwing out mason claim on post one is a thing I hate, but it's RC so like I know that I'm not even really going to know if that's legit or part of some angle he's playing. RC's answer to "What level are you playing at" is almost always "At least two higher than you" so there's that. The volume of "I'm town" posts there obviously gonna draw attention. At least as of the first couple pages, I'm feeling town RC there. He definitely has the range and balls to do that as scum but it strikes me as a fantastic way for him to get people responding and giving him info.

Probably a shit ton of talk about that in the pages to come. I've gotta actually do my job for awhile. Back in a bit.

~D

I skimmed the 11 pages that happened while I was asleep.

I don't get the RR wagon. It's far too flimsy to have this many votes.

I was planning on contributing, but it took me all my free time to catch up. Now I have to get ready for work, but if it's a slow day I should be around a bit today.

something's telling me there's at least 1 wolf in this white knighting chain. I'm not really awake enough to parse it yet, can someone tell me which one feels more fake?

forewarning I'm in prime position to be pocketed by either head of RR so I'm forcing myself to be numb there.

Cranberries are the greatest <3

White knighting chain? You mean RC expressing a townread on the under zero pressure RC, or Chickadee questioning the wagon on the actually being voted for me? Or are you referring to everyone who has questioned my wagon?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I suppose I don't see the Drixx post as white knighting. Don't really see the Chickadee thing as white knighting either, but a stronger case could be made there.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Whatever the majority desires, dude.

Nothing personal. Unless your trying to hang me, of course.

Speaking of Majority...

ALL PEOPLE MAY BOLD WHO THEY WANT TO BE HEALED. THE ONE WITH THE MOST GETS MY HEAL.

...

Do you think this is likely to make your role effective in preventing kills?

-Cerb

Considering I can't be roleblocked, yes indeed.

I'm basically giving people the ability to vote someone they WANT to be in the next day garunteed.

Killing a Neutral claim this early seems stupid for other scum, and if they know who I'm healing but attack anyway, they really didnt feel like killing anyway.

Look at it as me making them night-immune based on a majority decision.

Let me rephrase.

Do you think this is likely to reduce the KPN of the game? The goal of a doctor is to stay alive and protect likely scum kills, so as to gain information about who is likely town(because a kill failed on a night you protected a certain person) and keep scum further away from winning the game.

Does what your doing right now accomplish this goal? Because if it doesn't, then you're not playing the way a town doctor would, and the only way the town keeps you alive as a 3p is if you PLAY FOR TOWN.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I don't really feel like Tor and Elsa are aligned fwiw

You.

I like you.

Not because I agree with you, but because you were considering the same thoughts I was just a moment ago.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Elsa's REALLY HAMMY OBVIOUS CLAIM doesn't vibe as agendaey as I'd actually expect from him as a neutral survivor. if anything the way he's spun it and then crumbled the second Tora mentioned it feels more like groupscum who wants a reason to be like "lol ó hey I'm still alive" later in the game >:/

My entire gimmick when I was Jaydragonking was that I played like a Survivor as a VT. I held more investment when I was alive and all that.

But now I learned that my death isn't the biggest deal and I can accept death for the greater good...

Except now. Cuz surviving is literally my goal atm. Its fate.

Ohhh you're JayDragonKing. I do know you!

[Reasonably Rational]

Elsa's REALLY HAMMY OBVIOUS CLAIM doesn't vibe as agendaey as I'd actually expect from him as a neutral survivor. if anything the way he's spun it and then crumbled the second Tora mentioned it feels more like groupscum who wants a reason to be like "lol ó hey I'm still alive" later in the game >:/

My entire gimmick when I was Jaydragonking was that I played like a Survivor as a VT. I held more investment when I was alive and all that.

But now I learned that my death isn't the biggest deal and I can accept death for the greater good...

Except now. Cuz surviving is literally my goal atm. Its fate.

Ohhh you're JayDragonKing. I do know you!

Add them to people who should have some idea of how I play, at least a minimum amount of experience.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

3p is not of concern at the moment. Knowing he's 3p doesn't give us any information on flip, since he hasn't sided with anyone. group scum or even a mislynch is strictly better, information wise.

A mislynch brings us closer to losing, so that's not strictly superior. Why do you believe him?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@RC - Back to reading and more thoughts incoming. #756 is gross but I'm giving you a pass for the moment simply because we haven't played together since I moved last year (I don't think?) and I doubt you actually know you are basically saying "If Drixx doesn't take time away from caring for his elderly father who is about to have major and risky back surgery and is also showing signs of Alzheimer's OR from his newly started job and be super active, then I'm going to assume he's scum."

Best thing I can says is just check the Drixx account and the recently finished BS game. I had a pretty ugly time crunch early and you probably would have pushed to lynch me based upon what you're saying in #756.

I'm doing my best to avoid that in this game. So speaking of that ... going to try and get 100% current by mid day. I'll check the current thread state occasionally but otherwise see you all on the other side of reading a bunch of posts.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Captain's Log: Entry 1

Occupant RadiantCowbells seems to have decided too throw any good will i had with their Mason claim by calling me scummy.

Occupant is also causing a ruckus with my assumed ally,Toranaga.

Cautionary measures may have to be taken. We may have to gag and tie then up.

I promise I'm not going to do the catch up from tens of pages back thing because that's annoying as shit usually but ... I couldn't help but pick up that Elsa has claimed something much later in the game than this quote which ... doesn't seem to jive with this early posting style. Like ... my gut says this early italics "Captain's Log" stuff feels a lot like setting up potential narrative space.

Eh ... we'll see where it goes. It feels really off though. I'm reading Elsa trying to see if the claim makes any sense with the play and this early stuff is making my guts grumble.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

@RC - Back to reading and more thoughts incoming. #756 is gross but I'm giving you a pass for the moment simply because we haven't played together since I moved last year (I don't think?) and I doubt you actually know you are basically saying "If Drixx doesn't take time away from caring for his elderly father who is about to have major and risky back surgery and is also showing signs of Alzheimer's OR from his newly started job and be super active, then I'm going to assume he's scum."

Best thing I can says is just check the Drixx account and the recently finished BS game. I had a pretty ugly time crunch early and you probably would have pushed to lynch me based upon what you're saying in #756.

I'm doing my best to avoid that in this game. So speaking of that ... going to try and get 100% current by mid day. I'll check the current thread state occasionally but otherwise see you all on the other side of reading a bunch of posts.

~D

I haven't given you any sort of invasive timeline
Just that if you not posting is a long term thing it's a problem

Cool. I just am not as post count heavy as I used to be. I'm also a bit more prone to drop in shorter thoughts when I have a few minutes. The early game ruckus over your mason claim is interdesting. Good job.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Mod responded to my request for flavor. I'm a Reaver. That's a good guy, right?

Also...

Vote: Reasonably Rational

Serious vote as my tryhard alarm is pinging.

This is a little gross. Toog literally just played with Cerb and I and saw the lengths Cerberus went to when communicating via a Spirit Medium role after he died to be super try hard and leverage the situation in order to generate responses and get reads

while he was freaking dead and communicating through an unknown alignment intermediary

. It doesn't get much more try hard than that.

So ... how on earth are a couple pretty short posts ringing alarms?

o.O

~D

P.S. - So I'm doing the catch up from behind thing. Sorry. Too much interesting shit.


@RC - What's up with #114?

[Reasonably Rational]

Can we wagon Tora? I have a good reason.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

VOTE: Toranaga

This needs votes. Don't be dumb please.

Also ... 3p claims are gonna get treated really badly by this player list. And like ... Jay knows that right?

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Tora Tora Tora!

Can you point to a scum game of yours so I can see how you respond to pressure as scum? You aren't town spewing like you did in Superheroes Wanted.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

...

Is this productive? Tora? RC?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I think it's time you two stopped engaging with each other. It's not productive, and it's not about the game. Take a short break if need be.

Word.

You're also not 1v1'ing, in spite of RC's desire that it be viewed as one.

-Cerb

pedit: Let people who aren't Tora and RC talk about them? Talk to other people? ^^

peditx2: RC, take a walk. Get away from the computer/phone. The game isn't worth getting upset over.

[Reasonably Rational]

Tora Tora Tora!

Can you point to a scum game of yours so I can see how you respond to pressure as scum? You aren't town spewing like you did in Superheroes Wanted.

~D

you tunneled me until I was lynched, drixx

and now you're saying I was towny there, ok, sure

lemme find my scum games

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=76985
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=76395
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=76996

Dude. You self voted yourself. You also should probably take my word for it when I tell you something. Pushing someone I've concluded is town to see who will be opportunistic is a thing. Pushing someone to make sure that what I think is accurate is a thing. You just self voted yourself because it didn't occur to you to think a couple levels deeper.

Thanks for the links. Need to compare your spew.

~D

P-edit: Maybe take a step back skygazer. Calling an idea or assertion or argument insane isn't targeting a player.

[Reasonably Rational]

FFS really? Can we stop with this replacement shit?

Bujaber - already explained.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

And fuck you if you think I'd do this as scum cheeky

You kind of just town telled

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

how come we did not read the sentence "it's probably tvt" so far?

Well then. That looked like TvT

Reminds me of Mollie and I. God I miss that girl

and there we go

I read both cheeky and drixx/cerb announced a townread on you in a way that made me feel they both have TMI on your alignment, which is the main reason I think you might be town after all, but I had in the back of my head that people townreading both me and RC instead of taking a stance on it would actually be scum here quite a lot so hmmmm

Who is the "you" that you're talking to here?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure scum RC doesn't replace out because of *one* person.

He kills that person, either by forcing their lynch or actually killing them.

Conveniently enough that aligns with where Drixx and I are on the slot last I heard.

@Bujaber: sec. I was going to answer you, then realized I need to go to the restroom.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

should I stay, then?

drixx, I self voted cause that game was affecting my real life lol. getting rofl tunneled by town when I had done so much started to weigh on me emotionally and I didn't want to continue playing. and at no point did you give me any signs that you'd read my interpretation of the mechanics. you and almost everyone else there decided everyone who was supposed to vote for nero cain needed to die, which included the entire towncore we had. it ended up killing scum nancy for it, but it was wrong and you were supposed to know you can't read into mechanics the way you did because you didn't know the mechanics fully.

and tah-dah, scum had leader mechanics used that day

Of course. And if you look at the post game you'll see that I was intentionally trying to convince Math that I was pocketed. If I could give you one piece of advice for forum mafia it would be not to take everything at face value. Many players (including Cerb and I individually and in hydra) will do something that at first glance seems like one thing, but we're really doing it for some other reason.

I mean ... I dropped you a couple of low key hints that you shouldn't give up but I think you were just enough emotionally compromised to miss them.

Anyway ... the point of the exercise for me was to see how you reacted.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

skipped 5 pages
what's happened since?

I expressed the desire for you to go read those five pages.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Can we wagon Tora? I have a good reason.

~D

What is it?

IMO we should let the argument resolve itself naturally. They're both good at scum and using AtE. It's easier to sort them while they fight than when they're not.

If one of you guys feels it's too much replace out for your health and benefit. But I for one am rooting for the argument to continue.


Pedit : guess I'm too late

Buj could you go thru and explain your thought trajectory through that 1v1 which lead you to the conclusion "ah yes, this is good solving"

I know that you're capable of awesomely abstract thoughts as town so this isn't an empty shade throw. I just need my hand held here because my first impression was like.... how

The replace out invalidates this thought... but considering there's daychat this could have been a distancing ploy.

So now we're left with
TvT
TvS
SvS of different factions


It's good because I've seen tora AtE twice. When he was town the first time I had his slot and another slot and I eventually made the right lynch by reading his quickfire emotional posting.

The 2nd time he was scum and I scumread him and I was cop and checked him and got my confirmation.

Thoughts here?

Good job. This was the important thing buried in it all that you had to read. ^^

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Replacement doesnt equal not scum, but okay.

I'll chill on the RC thing for now.

So, looking at the votes, more of my townleans are on the Malakittens wagon then the Jaber one, so it seems like a better place to look into as I re-read their posts.

VOTE: Malakitten

P.S: wherever Toogeloo went off too, I still sont like his (or TW) idea to hang me, especially since he doesnt have a reason or good credibility yet to make such a push. Just keep him in mind as well.

RC simply doesn't replace out as scum. I mean ... he has once that I'm aware of, but that's a very lonely exception. RC replacing out of a game, especially for the reason he did here, basically puts the slot at near IC status. That's why I told him that replacing out that way was basically dropping a town tell. Since he's done it one time as scum it doesn't fit the absolute definition but it's about as close as it can get.

So yeah ... that slot goes back on the shelf for sorting, at worst. But I was already pretty sure RC was town. That ISO is so precisely RC-town that it's like it's broadcasting on all frequencies.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

Flavor question: (I can look it up but it might be better to have it publicly in here) who are Serenity's allies? What is the hierarchy of Serenity? What about their allies?

RR said they would answer this, but they haven't yet (and neither has anybody else), so I'll take a stab at it.

For the vast majority of

Firefly

and

Serenity

, the crew of the ship are:
- Mal, the captain, a once-principled solider who lost a war and became cynical (but is still fairly principled)
- Zoë, the first mate, served with Mal in that same war
- Wash, the pilot and Zoe's husband, sometimes serves as comic relief
- Kaylee, the mechanic, very sunny personality
- Jayne, hired muscle, not the brightest crayon in the bunch
- Inara, basically a high-class prostitute, not-really-but-sort-of part of the crew (also has a will they/won't they with Mal)
- Simon, doctor from a privileged background, gives it up to rescue his sister (starts off as just a passenger)
- River, Simon's sister and (literally) tortured teen (starts off as just a passenger)
- Book, a preacher who's more than meets the eye (starts off as just a passenger)

Serenity's allies are... *crickets chirp*. IIRC, they don't really have any, at least straightforward ones. They tend toward business relationships or brief alliances, rather than steady ones.

They're definitely against the Alliance, though, which is the government and the side they lost the war to (it was a civil war). They also make a

bunch

of enemies, big and small.

Also, now that I've thought about it, there is at least one memorable bad doctor, so it's possible for there to be a scum doctor. I still think it's more likely for Elsa to be Simon, though. (The bad doctor's from the movie, which I tend to forget about/ignore, but it is listed first, so maybe the game is based more around it? IDK.)

Interesting post. Has it been a long time since you watched the series and movie? You make a note about bad doctor and listed first which makes it feel like you put this post together from a wiki or something. But if you did that, then you wouldn't have missed a lot of the repeating good/neutral/bad guys and the HUGE ally from the movie.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

Worst, I never got a flavor and I'm a Neutral. Pretty damn sure scum dont either.

The flavor is revealed only on the flip. Period.

Our role PM says my full flavor will be revealed upon flip. It then goes on to provide a rationale for our role and a description of it that left us narrowed down to two possible characters from the series/movie that could possibly be our role. So I guess the really critical question is how much the roles are tied to the flavor.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

<3333

flavour reminds me of Protomen. or should i say lack of.

Can you elaborate on this? Is it just the lack of knowing exactly who you are that makes it feel that way or is there something else?

Also ... Hi!

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

I've argued to the point of replacing out twice. I'm starting to realize the signs of a dead end argument.

Then how can you not see from a townRC pov??

I wasn't town both those times.

Scum also replace out in frustration.

It would be very unusual for RC to replace out as scum at all, let alone replace out so someone else involved in a personal beef with him could stay in. Just ... way out of character for RC.

As in I was town once and scum once. Replacing out should not be the basis for a read. You might guess at and try to explain it but ultimately if you don't have other reasons to townread or scumread the player replacing out then you shouldn't read them based on the replace out.

There was already plenty of reason to have RC in the town pile. The replace out just kind of feels like a town tell.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

coming around to bujaber being town

@cheeky, why are you so strongly townreading RR?

Similar logic to your townread on Mala - RR and RC townread each other and are familiar with each other lol.

Actually it's mainly their response to me poking them earlier. I don't think scum get baited as easily as town when I'm being a derp.

Not to diminish the strength of your townread here, but RC was not townreading us. They just weren't scumreading us, and didn't think locktowning us was a good idea.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Bro Thor is not obvtown in relation to the claim

RR fine I'm not like really scumreading them but I think locktowning them is dumb af.

Toranaga like whatever I don't trust your read there but fine I'll give it was rest.

But Thor has massive scum equity here

CheekyTeeky, I feel you on that. But like...you know what's the bane of the way I play the game? People playing with fundamentally incorrect assumptions about the game state. I make decisions based on the information available in the thread and my evaluations of how people reacted to that information. If I see someone has the *wrong* information about something, I'm going to correct them on it. *shrug*

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

This is the only time I'm going to say this, because I don't think we need to kill Elsa now, but...

I want everyone who knows the flavor, and realizes that this game seems designed to have many killing roles on both/all sides(depending on single/multiball), to consider this.

Is it more likely that Simon is a neutral doctor, or that the Alliance, who has multiple doctors and is likely scum, has a scum doctor.

Just...

Think about that.

End setup/spec.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

why don't you just say whatever it is exactly that you're trying to say

and if what you're trying to say is "elsa is likely a scum doctor", why don't you think she needs to die?

Because the weight of probability isn't enough in favor of her being scum doctor for me to want her to die today?

I just don't want people to be stupid and assume that she IS 3p, when I feel there's far more weight, flavor wise, for her to be scum. Flavor alone isn't enough cause to lynch someone though, generally.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

why don't you just say whatever it is exactly that you're trying to say

and if what you're trying to say is "elsa is likely a scum doctor", why don't you think she needs to die?

#goodposting because that is the bit I agree with
given presence of multiple killing roles and the death inhibition mechanic it's better to keep PRO TOWN killing roles and protectives alive which gives us a better chance of a town kill not going thru.

Also a consideration.

If we don't believe that he's actually a neutral doctor, the proposed plan where we control who he heals each night is possibly the best choice. If he's actually neutral, we let him do what he wants.

So I suppose whether or not you think there's enough cause to lease them is significant.

The fact that their initial proposal was being leashed...bothers me. I don't know them well enough to know if scum them would realize that being leashed would be the best way to avoid questions about their doctor choices in the future, as well as minimize the chances that any other scum, if such exists, would shoot at them, since they wouldn't actually be stopping kills.

-Cerb

pedit: <3 ND

[Reasonably Rational]

why don't you just say whatever it is exactly that you're trying to say

and if what you're trying to say is "elsa is likely a scum doctor", why don't you think she needs to die?

#goodposting because that is the bit I agree with
given presence of multiple killing roles and the death inhibition mechanic it's better to keep PRO TOWN killing roles and protectives alive which gives us a better chance of a town kill not going thru.

Also a consideration.

If we don't believe that he's actually a neutral doctor, the proposed plan where we control who he heals each night is possibly the best choice. If he's actually neutral, we let him do what he wants.

So I suppose whether or not you think there's enough cause to lease them is significant.

The fact that their initial proposal was being leashed...bothers me. I don't know them well enough to know if scum them would realize that being leashed would be the best way to avoid questions about their doctor choices in the future, as well as minimize the chances that any other scum, if such exists, would shoot at them, since they wouldn't actually be stopping kills.

-Cerb

pedit: <3 ND

*NDS*

Sorry, missed a letter.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

A note again, I cant be roleblocked. Just making sure we know that part.

Pedit: clearly ive been hinting my modifier for awhile, but no, I'm not compulsive.

If it helps, I'm Ascetic with a single BP.

...

*sigh*

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

having a doctor on someone the entire game hardly seems like it doesn't trouble scum to me

knowing where the doctor will go so it never stops a kill, though. and if scum has a single roleblock, a single redirect, a single strongman, they can get around it anytime they want. elsa being useless is good for elsa, and neutral to the rest of us. I'm fine with him playing that way, but let's not pretend he'll be as useful for town as if he acted like a real doc at night.

I mean ... using up scum resources isn't nothing. And if they don't have a way around it, then if we leave Elsa to be sorted along the way, then we have a situation where we can protect strong town players and either force scum to shoot elsewhere or waste what are usually limited resources.

In a game where there is a cap on how many can die due to killing power, it's actually possible that forcing scum to shoot "not player x" could result in at least one less kill. And in a game where we have only so many mislynches and KPN we can absorb ... that's maybe considerably better than not nothing.

~D

P-Edit: Why the role spew? How does that help at all?

[Reasonably Rational]

why don't you just say whatever it is exactly that you're trying to say

and if what you're trying to say is "elsa is likely a scum doctor", why don't you think she needs to die?

@Elsa: Does that mean the post above is a scum claim? Because I literally said I don't want you to forget about this fact, but that's all I have to say on the matter now...and then NSG decided it was worthwhile to keep the topic going?

If not her, then who among the people discussing this is likely scum?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

...

Again with people being obtuse.

I wanted to remind people of single thing.

Then swarms of people showed up to make it a discussion. Now the question I'm asking is, within that group(you can even include me!), who is scum using it as a means to avoid actual scumhunting?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

What you did was what any drunk dude who mentions something like politics or religion in a bar: a goddamn bar fight.

Cerb, your trying to make me look at this from a TOWNIE perspective. I cant really do that.

The conversation in question included me, you (RR), North, Tora Nancy, and Cheeky.

Tora/Nancy: basically been on my side since page 1.

Cheeky: Ive slowly come to like over the last 25-ish pages.

North: the Bae/friend of mine who (if they live) I'm gonna be buttering up and complementing all day 2 for friendship and protection?

Yeah, going against my current and potential allies is a very stupid idea as a Neutral.

...

So.

Let me remind you that your value to the town in this game(who should be the majority) is in being a town voice. In scumhunting. In actively working to further their interests.

Not in your role. Fuck your role.

So. Perhaps you should stop being so fucking neutral, and hunt for scum like the rest of us. I would rather waste a lynch and have you dead(in the worst case, where you're actually neutral) than have you shitting up the thread with useless noise because you're neutral and too worried about staying alive to actually be fucking useful.

Whatever. You have until tomorrow's day phase. I will have you dead by the end of that day if you don't figure out how to look at the game like you would as a town slot.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh, and this too:

VOTE: Nicorobin

I'd give reasons, but apparently we don't need those anymore.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

It's even weirder that Cerb asks Elsa to scumhunt and makes threats after telling me to eff off when I asked them to coordinate and do the same. Le sigh.

Chara I need your reads. Please come soon.

It's very different reasoning.

The problem I have with Elsa is the refusal to look at that group of slots critically(in spite of expressing the belief that they could be used as a way to avoid scumhunting), because they're neutral and can't look at things from a town perspective.

That means their voice is useless to the town, is it not? Whatever people saw earlier as gamesolving, if they sincerely believe that they can't look at things from a townie perspective, was fake. All fake. None of what they're doing or will do is legitimate scumhunting, AND, if actually neutral, it doesn't even give us the associative benefits of looking at a scum slot's behavior, because they're not informed at all.

I, on the other hand, dislike the fact that you attempted to strongarm us into doing something. I did not say I would never express concise reads. I did not say I COULD NOT DO IT, AS IN, LITERALLY INCAPABLE OF DOING IT. I just said that your insistence made me want to say no on principle, even though Drixx and I had decided to play this game differently already in at least that regard.

I also want Chara's reads. Go go Chara. I've missed you friend.

I know random fairly well. His lack of thread presence is not unusual, but I hate it. :-/

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I'm probably the towniest I've ever been D1. I like 3p's, and generally like leaving them alone because it's shitty to deny someone else their win con if it doesn't help you achieve yours.

^^

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Flicker what are your thoughts on NSGs push on you?

In short, it's a reach. I don't feel compelled to respond to it for now - I know I'll sound defensive and I hate that, and a lot of refuting it relies on self-meta, which I don't like reading from other people. Maybe if/when I'm in more danger I'll elaborate more, but also, if I'm the lynch today, whatever. I'd rather get mislynched now than be left for the game-ending mislynch. (OTOH, so far I seem to be better at scumhunting via associatives after a couple flips, but I'm really not confident in those reads or my ability to convince others to follow them.)

Pedit: I see you have another question for me, which I promise I'll get to later. I have to get to bed now.

I'm okay with hearing your self meta(not even utilized as a defense mechanism, but in general), because I don't know you and how you perceive your town/scum behavior is helpful to me in setting expectations.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

cerb are you even town rn

oops

yeah I'll go do other stuff and I'm here tomorrow. better let the thread breathe.

I don't know about RR now. it's a collection of

wrong

that cerb shouldn't be thinking in the last few posts.

pedit: then stop bugging elsa lmao. he is being fine. let's worry about other slots.

What you should really be considering is where the scum equity is in pushing for the lynch of that particular slot. I don't actually think there is any(which, of course, is something scum!me would know, and the entire thing would have just been constructed to let me make this point, but still), given that their attitude makes them no threat to a scum wincon, and they don't even need to die for the declared scum wincon to be achieved, and if the game is in a state where there's only one town left, they're a vote an outed scum team could count on to end the game...

Trying to remove them doesn't seem like a very good move to make. *shrug*

ANYWAYS.

Can we talk about someone else? I agree with that much. People just need to stop referencing me and Elsa, because you're almost all invariably wrong, and I feel compelled to correct you. Let's just do that, and Elsa will know my plans for tomorrow, and act appropriately, and I can go look at other people!
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I am being useful, jerkwad. Confirming the Multiball, garunteeing someone to make it to the next day with the leash strat, ive clearly been given my opinion on everything and pointing out scummy moves which are ignored.

News flash: because I town read Tora/Nancy, I am literally acting as their second vote currently. A town vote. Do you have any objections on Tora being town?

If no, then congrats. Town has a vote.

If yes, then why wouldn't you hang them instead besides being petty enough to take away my victory first and not playing town wincon?

Focus your energy where it'll be useful for town if you got it. As long as my allies are town, by definition, my vote is with town.

You should probably look at the game Cerb was hydra with Wguerts. I want to say it was SaGa Frontier by Varsoon. Pretty sure that was it. They were 3p who won when all roles with a killing power were dead. Alone.

That game was interesting because Varsoon was playing around with 3p and the fact that some folks on the site (several of us who regularly played Varsoon games) felt like there was a lot of interesting gamespace to be explored in 3p and wanted to see 3p not be auto lynched. And Cerb/Wguerts hydra definitely played on that sympathy. I'm pretty sure I even came down on the "We can always lynch them after we finish the scum off" side on the final day and helped them to that single slot win con.

So ... you're going to get pressed to put your money where your mouth is, as it were. Comes with the territory.

Oh, and this too:

VOTE: Nicorobin

I'd give reasons, but apparently we don't need those anymore.

-Cerb

why are you being like that man?

mala has just declared a secret reason to townread RC slot, and RC has declared mala to be 100% town, so my vote on mala looks like I'm voting a mason softclaim and that'd be poor form, wouldn't it. so, I decided to go elsewhere and mala voted nico, I ISO'd it and it was empty. those are my reasons for voting nico.

-tor

VOTE: NicoRobin

I find her thread presence (or rather, lack thereof) highly unsatisfactory.

What do you think about TPFKAP's presence?

What presence?

[Reasonably Rational]

That last one was me.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

For what it's worth I think both lurker wagons would be good for us, especially now that there's been some back and forth from the people on each wagon.

But people townreading TFPKAP already are lying to themselves.

There's nothing there. There's nothing in Nico's ISO


The difference between RR and them is in addition to what I've already said, he's engaging with people and keeping up with his word vomit.

And I see it is a very excessively exhausting way to maintain fake towncred if that's what he's going for.

He could fake reads and post less and choose to engage people selectively instead of doing this. He's being brazenly rediculously irrelevant and attracting attention like a magnet. Also the early wagon on him was weird and I'm fairly confident one or more of the voters were scum. I'd rather first get some scum flips before starting to consider the possibility of some sort of SvS wagon.


So RR is likely town, one or both of Nico/TFKPAP are likely scum.

I find it strange that you persist in maintaining this position when I've been rather quiet the last 48 hours or so. Why aren't you suspicious of me, if that early play is, as you said, excessively exhausting? I would expect someone who believes that to expect us to slow down if scum, which is something we've done.

(Also, I recommend you check out our hydras play in Steven Universe 2, Aquarius' play from the Final Fantasy Tactics game, The Cool Cucumbers play from Saga Frontier, my play(Cerberus v6.66) from Open 623, and/or RAM's play in Gistou. All instances of me as, at the least, a very vocal head of a hydra, or by myself, as scum. Right conclusion, wrong reasons. )

I have two hours stuck in front of a computer for work stuff, where I can't do fun things.

Whoever is out there engage with me and direct my attention where you desire. I'm also going to be poking Drixx to see if I can get a short version of his thoughts on the game state, since he told me he had caught up with the game.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

votecount

With 17 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

Reasonably Rational (7):	Toogeloo (449),	Toranaga (451),	CheekyTeeky (452),	the worst (462),	NicoRobin (473),	Elsa Jay (474),	Thor665 (544),
Flicker (2):	northsidegal (153),	RadiantCowbells (471),
Toranaga (1):	Reasonably Rational (363),
the worst (1):	Skygazer (380),
RadiantCowbells (1):	BuJaber (384),
BuJaber (1):	Flicker (497),
Not voting (4):	TPFKAP,	Chickadee,	randomidget,	Malakittens (90),

(expired on 2018-10-16 02:00:00) remain.

I'll be starting here with ISOing people, if nobody else gives me anything to look at. My wagon was the one that came closest to actually resulting in a lynch.

Bujaber and RC slot/Chara have honorary places in this group as well, though their are some independent reasons to consider them each town, RC did do the ridiculous thing of voting and giving my wagon a bit of momentum and immediately leaving it before the vote could get caught by a VC.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Spoiler: For Toogeloo

Mod responded to my request for flavor. I'm a Reaver. That's a good guy, right?

Also...

Vote: Reasonably Rational

Serious vote as my tryhard alarm is pinging.

I think Drixx mentioned this, but I believe you were present in Heroes Wanted, though I was dead and flipped by the time you joined. Were you in that game during D2? And/or did you read D2, and come away with the impression that tryharding is out of character for me?

@Toog:

tryhard alarm
didn't ping to you earlier??

I'm mostly just getting scum vibes from the over analysis of RC's Masonry claim.

I'd like more details on why you view what I said as overanalysis. You're familiar with RC, yes? Is anything RC does something that should ever be accepted at face value, or analyzed minimally?

For the record, I felt the over analysis of the Masonry claim felt forced, which is what gives me the scum vibe from your slot. Was getting that try hard mentality from your slot.

Same thing I just said.

Vote Counter is broken anyways considering RR has 4 different Vote Lines.

Wagon on RR is simply, I voted them because I didn't like their posting and then the lemming festival kinda walked on through as they moved off their last vanity wagon.

Why is this post minimizing the reasoning you gave for the vote? Previously you had expressed a (singular) specific reason, but now you've changed it to a vague statement. What were you trying to accomplish here by downplaying your own reasoning, while downplaying everyone else's even more?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Elsa Jay

We can't have more than 2 of each alignment killed per total cycle, which diminishes the role of Doctor as it is. Add in the fact that Elsa has admitted to not having a town wincon and it makes for an easy choice to lynch since depending on how the game goes, they'll flip to whichever side helps them achieve their wincon, which will make it more difficult to lynch the slot if we find ourselves in deep too far down the road.

I'm not changing my vote and standing firm on this. We aren't leashing third party, regardless of what the role is.

My mental notes escape me atm, but I think I had...
Elsa Kay
Nancy Drew Toranaganate
BoogerJabber
...as scum reads.

I'm struggling to keep up with the pace since I'm on business in DC right now (and another week more). Hopefully I'll be dead after Night 1 though, so it wont be much an issue.

I think someone asked what info can be gained from lynching Elsa.

People can still have stances on other reads and lynch the claimed scum, plus night brings in a lot of information as well which almost always substantiates previous positions or opens new avenues of discussion.

The game is designed to try and prevent swing, but that doesnt mean it isnt possible, and if town loses too many members before scum loses even one, Elsa automatically becomes a non facto member of the scum team. Lynching her later in the game is still a mislynch in the eyes of the mafia team.

The last couple all go together. At least, the Elsa Jay part. Why are you pushing for their lynch today so hard, if you agree that mechanically lynching them at any point in the game is the same? It feels like you have the same reasoning as Jingle, but instead of arriving at their conclusion that Elsa has to be lynched at some time prior to LYLO, you decided they need to be lynched NOW. I don't understand how the two of you applied the same logic and arrived at such different conclusions.

Can you elaborate on NDS and Bujaber scumreads?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Spoiler: For Toogeloo

Mod responded to my request for flavor. I'm a Reaver. That's a good guy, right?

Also...

Vote: Reasonably Rational

Serious vote as my tryhard alarm is pinging.

I think Drixx mentioned this, but I believe you were present in Heroes Wanted, though I was dead and flipped by the time you joined. Were you in that game during D2? And/or did you read D2, and come away with the impression that tryharding is out of character for me?

@Toog:

tryhard alarm
didn't ping to you earlier??

I'm mostly just getting scum vibes from the over analysis of RC's Masonry claim.

I'd like more details on why you view what I said as overanalysis. You're familiar with RC, yes? Is anything RC does something that should ever be accepted at face value, or analyzed minimally?

For the record, I felt the over analysis of the Masonry claim felt forced, which is what gives me the scum vibe from your slot. Was getting that try hard mentality from your slot.

Same thing I just said.

Vote Counter is broken anyways considering RR has 4 different Vote Lines.

Wagon on RR is simply, I voted them because I didn't like their posting and then the lemming festival kinda walked on through as they moved off their last vanity wagon.

Why is this post minimizing the reasoning you gave for the vote? Previously you had expressed a (singular) specific reason, but now you've changed it to a vague statement. What were you trying to accomplish here by downplaying your own reasoning, while downplaying everyone else's even more?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Elsa Jay

We can't have more than 2 of each alignment killed per total cycle, which diminishes the role of Doctor as it is. Add in the fact that Elsa has admitted to not having a town wincon and it makes for an easy choice to lynch since depending on how the game goes, they'll flip to whichever side helps them achieve their wincon, which will make it more difficult to lynch the slot if we find ourselves in deep too far down the road.

I'm not changing my vote and standing firm on this. We aren't leashing third party, regardless of what the role is.

My mental notes escape me atm, but I think I had...
Elsa Kay
Nancy Drew Toranaganate
BoogerJabber
...as scum reads.

I'm struggling to keep up with the pace since I'm on business in DC right now (and another week more). Hopefully I'll be dead after Night 1 though, so it wont be much an issue.

I think someone asked what info can be gained from lynching Elsa.

People can still have stances on other reads and lynch the claimed scum, plus night brings in a lot of information as well which almost always substantiates previous positions or opens new avenues of discussion.

The game is designed to try and prevent swing, but that doesnt mean it isnt possible, and if town loses too many members before scum loses even one, Elsa automatically becomes a non facto member of the scum team. Lynching her later in the game is still a mislynch in the eyes of the mafia team.

The last couple all go together. At least, the Elsa Jay part. Why are you pushing for their lynch today so hard, if you agree that mechanically lynching them at any point in the game is the same? It feels like you have the same reasoning as Jingle, but instead of arriving at their conclusion that Elsa has to be lynched at some time prior to LYLO, you decided they need to be lynched NOW. I don't understand how the two of you applied the same logic and arrived at such different conclusions.

Can you elaborate on NDS and Bujaber scumreads?

-Cerb

To clarify, it's for Toogeloo and anyone else who wants to read it, not like, something private, just a list of quotes and questions I have for them.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Mod responded to my request for flavor.

I'm a Reaver

. That's a good guy, right?

Also...

Vote: Reasonably Rational

Serious vote as my tryhard alarm is pinging.

Wait, I haven’t fully read the game. Isn’t Reavers supposed to be scum?

It's addressed in their ISO.

Short version, claimed it's a joke, which they felt comfortable making because nobody has flavor.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Chara: I didn't really see other reasonable possibilities behind what RC said, and my answer was mostly tongue-in-cheek.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

BuJaber: i don't know about the fight. by his ego i meant doubling down on his scumread instead of listening to Tora's thoughts on Elsa. RC's replaced out as scum before i believe, but doing so like this is something he's done many a time as town, and much more. you can ask somebody besides me on that as well. ;>

Cerb: fair enough. i did bring it up for a reason but i'm mostly satisfied with your play, so it's probably fine. haven't read the second half of the game yet.

I'd love to hear the reason. I imagine there's something else you saw as an option that I neglected.

With regards to Nico: Drixx and I are doing something different, and actually voting. The majority of our votes so far have been purely to apply more pressure to a forming wagon. The vote on Nico was much the same, but the fact that their only content has been to express a vendetta against Drixx and myself did ping us.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Whoever is out there engage with me and direct my attention where you desire. I'm also going to be poking Drixx to see if I can get a short version of his thoughts on the game state, since he told me he had caught up with the game.

Hmm. I don't have a list of people I'd like you to poke, but I do have a list of people I'm planning on poking/don't care about at the moment. If you can make the NotPorkens or the NR make more wordnoises, it would be appreciated. If you're not a witch and limited to reasonable requests, I'd enjoy attempts to sort/draw content from/elaborations about anyone not on the following list:


Toogaloogaloog
Elsa
GEmerald
Thor
Cheeky
Toraganate
Skygazer
TPFKAP
NR
Chara
Chick

If you could pick two of the not them players, and then talk about them I'd be

Feel free to talk about me. I love hearing about me.

Two from this(much shorter than the list you made) list then, excluding myself?

Jingle the worst
Flicker
BuJaber
Malakittens
northsidegal

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I'd love to hear the reason. I imagine there's something else you saw as an option that I neglected.

With regards to Nico: Drixx and I are doing something different, and actually voting. The majority of our votes so far have been purely to apply more pressure to a forming wagon. The vote on Nico was much the same, but the fact that their only content has been to express a vendetta against Drixx and myself did ping us.

-Cerb

i'll give you a hint: it's not me being mafia, and it's not RC being wrong.
well. technically.
thanks for the answer on Robin, that makes sense.

Eh, town killing roles are a thing, but I knew RC wouldn't shoot me if he was town!

...And there's also other options, yes, but I don't see the benefit to talking about them. ^^

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

My biggest issue with him is how he's twisting to defend TPFKAP.
I don't town read him.

Drixx and I don't object to this.

VOTE: Flicker

Yay a different 3 vote wagon!

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

she won't be confirmed town, elsa. this ability is NAI, she can be anything for it.

I'm not voting people I'm townreading to test things that don't matter.

-tor

Oh my gawd, Tora...

How many roles besides IC get to confirm their roles d1 like this. Why are you denying her the ability to confirm her role?

If your worried about me hammering I'm already voting her, if its someone else then they confirmed scum.

Just let her prove its her role. It's a net gain for town no matter how you slice it.

? It's extremely immaterial. We can have it happen, but it doesn't matter. They could just as easily be someone with that modifier and some other ability who is scum. They could be NU for scum. They could be town.

Proving that they can't self-hammer(because technically, that's all this would prove, not that they can't hammer someone else) does nothing as far as sorting their slot is concerned.

More information is good, unless it's useless information, which it would be in this case.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I mean, what other priest-like characters are there in Firefly/Serenity, even? If I'm not Book, who on Earth would I be? And if Book's not town, what even is this game?

(And yes, to answer an earlier question I keep forgetting about, it's been a while since I've seen either. I used to be deep in the fandom stuff, though, which I'm relying on to carry me, but d'oh on forgetting Mr. Universe, assuming that's who you - RR? - were alluding to as a major ally in the movie.)

What's the flavor that goes along with the role in your PM?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

you're being a lot more forceful and a very Smurf which is different than the towngames you played with me. IDK if that makes you scum and I said a couple of times I'm not in position to parse you out because my experience with you is limited. this is the first time you make me cringe in a game though, and you're doing it a lot.

-tor

I'm being more forceful than my town play?
How do you define forceful?

"flicker's claim is early enough to be "meh"" from thor is all kinds of puke

Fascinating.
Why?

just how is it "meh"?

-tor

Because it robbed town of getting complete wagon info and hammer intent to mine.
How is my opinion "puke"?
You ducked that question really hard.

Thor, unfortunately every wagon this game while you're alive is going to be robbed of that info, because you entered the game seemingly eager to quickhammer someone. I will *never* put someone at L-1 without being okay with them getting lynched without even getting to claim because of that. There will always be similar concern that we not only have to worry about scum lolhammering and trying to get away with it, but also someone of unknown alignnment who has publicly expressed an interest in doing that.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

We don't get flavor until after the flip, Cerb. She's claiming Book because she knows the series.

Elsa, you have no idea what I'm talking about and should really stfu and stop interfering with my interactions with the person I'm trying to sort. Thanks.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

My flavor's redacted, of course. But seriously, who else could I be? Maybe I'm too confident in who I am, but nobody's lining up to prove me wrong yet, either.

Pedit: Yes Chara, it looks scummy, I know, whatever.

...

Okay.

Let me go grab the sample PM.

Hello

Almost50

You are [full flavour will be revealed upon your flip or at the end of the game]. You are a

Flying Pumpkin That Shoots Laser Beams Out Of Its Ass

. Each night you may target a player to kill them. By default

you have a 75% chance of hitting your target

. You also have a

25% of surviving an attempt on your life

.

Once in the game

though you may "aim" to change your shooting precision to 100%

in exchange for your 25% BP on that night

.

You win when all threats to Serenity and its crew have been eliminated.

Between the part where your flavor is redacted, and BEFORE the part where the mechanical effects of your role are explained, are there any words? If so, what are those words? That's what I'm asking about.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

puke is scummy

you are changing the definition. active lurking means porkens clicks the thread, reads, and doesn't post. there's nothing in his posting that points to it, other than you trying to interpret that elsa vote as something that's actually not there.

I'm using that game with mulch, which is an year ago so it is dated, but also some stupid game I had to replace out d1 cause everyone was aids.

-tor

1. So you're able to sort me again now (albeit doing a really aggressive leap..which might explain why I'm calling your play trash, even though you feel like I'm being terrible and attacking the towniest player in the game...just saying, reality appears to be aligning with me)?
2. Active lurking also has as part of its description doing empty posting to appear active and to avoid prods. Incidentally, have you looked at TPFKAP's ISO at all?
3. A year ago I was assuredly just as aggressive as I am now - feel free to bring up samples from that game to showcase how different I am.

Thor, do you expect Cheeky to be aware of 3? If so, what are your thoughts on them assigning a town read to you based on that behavior?

-Cerb

pedit: So Flicker, there are zero flavory things like "As a man of the cloth, you would never hang someone yourself. You can not cast the hammering vote on a wagon" or some shit like that? It's just "You a priest, you can not hammer"?

Also, for the record: the rules about not quoting your role pm literally mean that. Don't quote, like, use the quote function, on your role PM. Otherwise, just the act of saying that you're a priest, or describing what your role does, could constitute a violation of said rule. Obviously best to just ask the mod, but I wouldn't feel at all at risk to quote, verbatim, the portion of my role PM that says how my role functions.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I'll humor people.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Flicker

THIS IS L-1. DO NOT VOTE UNLESS YOU ARE FLICKER, SELF VOTING TO PROVE THEIR MODIFIER.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

good to know you expect me to assertively push people all the time when I'm being diplomatic about my scumreads because

"RC isn't a big enough asshole to do x as scum"

. I would let you mislynch flicker if I was scum, cheeky teeky.

at any rate I 100% believe flicker's claim too.

-tor

Yeah, just curious whether it could be scum. Could someone else cross-reference the flavor there?

Not until they answer my question.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Is it your sole purpose to troll me this game Jingle?

Nah, I was active lurking to see if RR would actually respond to my request and what various scumspects would do. I'm bored now though, and I'm more than happy to explain why those posts are :barf:

Sorry. Been busy with work. Haven't actually put time into things. I did ask Drixx what he thought about the list you gave us though!

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

For the record, I don't find Jingle's case on Bujaber particularly compelling. I don't know Bujaber well enough to have any BoP expectations of them, but those issues you have with them certainly seem to be the results of logical reasoning stopped short of it's final conclusion, where he'd realize it didn't actually make sense, rather than being a scum fabrication. This falls apart if Bujaber is a player who is very thorough in their logical arguments, but I've found that most individuals are not.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

i'm so tired.
BuJaber keeps feeling town to me in his posts. it's his stances i haven't liked.
i might go look at that more tomorrow.
also 1830 has kind of got my attention.

QFT.
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I mean ... that spew of crap could be give up posting I suppose. That's some consolation.

There is a VERY strong reason to believe that NicoRobin is scum in this game. Like bordering on logical certainty reasoning. Just trying to get this in before threadlock.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Why bother...

UNVOTE:
VOTE: TPFKAP

...

I mean.

This is not a good look for you Toogeloo.

Also, vigs should shoot Elsa. Just saying. That's probably the highest EV play you can make overall.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Elsa, target.

Also a reminder that the wagon yesterday should be analyzed as though it were a town lynch, because scum did not know they were lynching one of their own(though technically until we know that they did not know they had a traitor, which is not made clear by TPFKAP's flip, it's possible they caught on that they were scum...they didn't say anything that appeared to be a traitor scum, but they did spend the first part of the day ONLY saying the word scum about people).

Speaking of which, we know now that the Alliance was 2 groupscum+traitor, so it's safe to say that The Operative is acting as a separate scum entity(likely alone), and the reavers are also likely their own scum entity(again, likely alone).

Game looks like 2+1 vs 1 vs 1 vs 12, from a purely speculative/flavor standpoint.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Let me just game solve a bit for you all.

Watch me attract a lot of attention tonight!

I'm sure you can figure out the rest...

Thanks.

That does simplify things.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Hey Elsa.

You should elaborate on how your doctor ability works. Namely, does it protect against a single killing, action, or all killing actions?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Can anyone think of busdriver/redirector roles that would make sense in Firefly?

Cause I don't see a scum reason for either of them lying assuming I get what's going on.

I don't feel that there's any reason to be coy about this.

Toogeloo claimed to activate a lightning rod effect.

This means that everything targeted him.

Elsa claims that their healing ability protects against any number of kills.

So all kills that were used by anyone were negated, and we know that none of the kills that were used were strongman kills.

Also, all investigatives etc also hit Toogeloo.

Toogeloo, please explicitly confirm that my interpretation of what you're saying happened last night is correct.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Indeed.

Also, we can be fairly certain that, barring a modifier on your own role that prevents roleblocking, you were not the initial target of any roleblocking effects.

Am I missing any conclusions that everyone should be able to reach?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I guess I might as well explicitly state this too since people seem a little slow today: if you investigated anyone last night, you received results from Toogeloo. If you watched him, you probably saw everyone visit him who has an action requiring target(and this might be information worth sharing, given that it would give us a list that necessarily contains one member of every anti-town group that could send in a kill last night, unless they had a ninja modifier...but it also might not be. Use your best judgment). If you copped someone, you now know toogeloos alignment. Etc.

Basically, if you're keeping track of investigative results for your role, change your target for last night and the results you got to a lightning rod toogeloo, not who you intended.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Since I never dealt with a situation like thks before, Imma be the noob and ask if ascetic counters that. Since, you know, it stops everything but killed.

Because if it doesnt I think I may or may not have been bullshitted alive?

Ascetic stops all actions that target you and do not kill(technically, it does not stop ANY action, it merely makes the action not work against you. Critical distinction if, say, someone were to watch someone take an action against you but you claimed to have not received the result of the action...that would not mean anyone was lying, just that the action was submitted and went out as the watcher saw, but it had no effect on you). Lightning rod does not target you, it is a universal redirect that changes the target of all submitted actions to the person activating the lightning rod - in this case, Toogeloo.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Should go without saying, but claiming an inno is pretty useless right now.

Fair.

I don't think we know enough about the setup right now to decide if a scum lightning rod makes sense, so we can't assume town Toogeloo, but yes, minimal value on an inno atm.

Jingle, do you think Flicker could be The Operative? He's the only major character I can think of besides Book who could be considered to have a priest modifier. Not actually religious, but he certainly was devoted to the Alliance and what he felt to be "right".

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Attention

Attention, please!

Someone asked (via PM) about the Lightning Rod/Ascetic resolution, and while

I can neither confirm nor deny either of these exist in the game

I will say that in a

hypothetical situation

where these two exist I would

NOT

let a Lightning Rod affect the Ascetic player. (Yes, I know that's not what most of you think and I acknowledge your PoV might have more merit than mine, but I would treat the Lightning Rod as "action

targeting

everyone" if that makes any sense.)

You all do realize this isn't a "Normal", so I would strongly recommend you ask me how >I< would resolve any hypothetical situation.

Thank you

This is weird.

And problematic.

Few possiblities:

1) Scum have a kill that could not be redirected, used it on cheeky, and elsa saved them.
2) Elsa is not ascetic.
3) There is another non-ascetic doctor out there, one that also prevented multiple kills.
4) There are multiple protective actions that occurred, enough to equal the number of kills submitted.

I think there might be a couple others, but they're all variations on these.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Attention

Attention, please!

Someone asked (via PM) about the Lightning Rod/Ascetic resolution, and while

I can neither confirm nor deny either of these exist in the game

I will say that in a

hypothetical situation

where these two exist I would

NOT

let a Lightning Rod affect the Ascetic player. (Yes, I know that's not what most of you think and I acknowledge your PoV might have more merit than mine, but I would treat the Lightning Rod as "action

targeting

everyone" if that makes any sense.)

You all do realize this isn't a "Normal", so I would strongly recommend you ask me how >I< would resolve any hypothetical situation.

Thank you

That would by definition be a self mass redirector. But you do you.

Mhm. What Jingle said.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Compulsive is a thing. But that's a great question.

Toog, are you X-shot LR or was this a n1 thing only?

I recommend not answering this.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I'm not liking anyone saying to look at the Porkens lynch as a "town lynch".

It was anything but and we all know it. Even a glance at their ISO gave everyone a reason to kill them as town and scum on other team.

I dont think the Porkens lynch is AI for finding their partners, personally. Scum jumping on the wagon, sure, but definitely not any HoB members bussing a "potential traitor".

Elsa, you're too smart to make statements like the bolded one.Do you honestly think anyone wanted us to view yesterday as a mislynch? Do you sincerely think that statement was meant that way by anyone, and not the way that you said it(that is, that the wagon should be analyzed in the same way a wagon on town would be)?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

You want to know why AND improve the accuracy of your reads this game? I'm town. The counterwagon to a traitor flip. Even if we assume scum didn't know the traitor, a town counterwagon to another town wagon? Scum voted me.

In a multi-ball game, that's never how it works. Scum only care if it's "not them."

Indeed.

Is this honest bad town play from Bujaber? As I said yesterday, I'm inclined to assume ignorance over malice much of the time(because it's so easy to portray bad town play as scummy), but this gives me pause.

Bujaber, do you actually have any logic to present about things that makes sense/isn't easily dismissed as simply wrong?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

You want to know why AND improve the accuracy of your reads this game? I'm town. The counterwagon to a traitor flip. Even if we assume scum didn't know the traitor, a town counterwagon to another town wagon? Scum voted me.

In a multi-ball game, that's never how it works. Scum only care if it's "not them."

Indeed.

Is this honest bad town play from Bujaber? As I said yesterday, I'm inclined to assume ignorance over malice much of the time(because it's so easy to portray bad town play as scummy), but this gives me pause.

Bujaber, do you actually have any logic to present about things that makes sense/isn't easily dismissed as simply wrong?

-Cerb

I'm 'not them' for all scum factions.

If 'not them' is the motivation for scum voting a wagon, I have a higher chance of attracting scum votes because I fit this description for more of them.

And if the traitor is unknown to scum in this game (seems that way from the role PM) then none of the factions would know they had a traitor. So if any faction decided TFP was traitor crumbing, they have an interest in keeping her alive in case she was

their

traitor.


Either way there is a visible difference between TFP and my wagons compared to RR and flicker's. Those seemed like early experimental wagons that fizzled pretty quickly. People only unvoted me because TFP wagon won. The votes on these 2 wagons were much more permanent.

You don't understand how comparing a scum flip to a counterwagon works. It's not "not them" that's the key. It's how they interact around the slots whose alignment they do know. We can safely assume that all scum factions knew/assumed the game was multiball, based on the size of their teams. If you are not scum, they did not know whether you were scum or not. None of them likely knew if TPFKAP was scum or not. Their interactions regarding how people chose between you and the other option will not reveal anything about whether they were trying to distance themselves from a known scum lynch, or hard bus, or conceal either intent.

You as a counterwagon to scum means nothing in the context of this game.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

The RR/BuJaber debate is going nowhere *really* fast.

Nancy Drew came in and gave a beautiful picture perfect example of IIoA by literally saying nothing other than theorizing town has a protective role other than the claimed 3rd party role - whoop-dee-insight.

It's significant Thor. It's a matter of "is Bujaber this bad, or are they scum?" This is the second time they've pushed some theory that's fundamentally flawed.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Flicker: Please ask the moderator if you can hammer in mylo/lylo.

Thanks.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I hope you don't tell me to stfu again, but it's probably a given she can't anyway. Don't think Almost would see the need to give her ability such a condition, but that's just me.

I mean ... that spew of crap could be give up posting I suppose. That's some consolation.

There is a VERY strong reason to believe that NicoRobin is scum in this game. Like bordering on logical certainty reasoning. Just trying to get this in before threadlock.

~D

Would you also like to elaborate on your Hydra's thoughts on this as well? You haven't said anything about it.

Yes, you should refrain from involving yourself in my prompting that someone should ask the moderator a question about how their role functions. Unless you think it's actively damaging to town for the question to be answered, it would be nice if you didn't get involved prior to them giving an answer.

Honestly, Drixx didn't even share his strong reason with me yet, and I haven't asked him! We had cause to be suspicious of NR before, but it was DEFINITELY not at the degree of certainty expressed in that last post.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I mean ... that spew of crap could be give up posting I suppose. That's some consolation.

There is a VERY strong reason to believe that NicoRobin is scum in this game. Like bordering on logical certainty reasoning. Just trying to get this in before threadlock.

~D

A LYNCH has been achieved

VC#0

TPFKAP (9): Thor665, Gamma Emerald, Elsa Jay, CheekyTeeky, BuJaber, Jingle, Nancy Drew Shogunate, Chara, Toogeloo

BuJaber (2): McMenno, Chickadee
Flicker (2): Reasonably Rational, northsidegal

NicoRobin (2): Malakittens TPFKAP

Reasonably Rational (1): NicoRobin


Not Voting: Flicker

Deadline suspended

Interesting. Was TPFKAP possibly distancing here?

TPFKAP, the traitor, whose flip shows that they did not know who their teammates were, was distancing from their unknown teammates?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

It's significant Thor. It's a matter of "is Bujaber this bad, or are they scum?" This is the second time they've pushed some theory that's fundamentally flawed.

Yeah, so why are you debating with BuJaber as opposed to mining a few of his games to be able to actually get evidence to suggest he is or isn't that bad?

Do you honestly think this was going to be my only post on D2?

Well, currently you've made three posts, they are, in order;

IIoA
Whining
And empty scumhunting

So, no, I don't expect it to be your only post.
Yes, I do expect it to be suggestive of your posting quality.

I don't *ever* mine people's games Thor. Fuck that. This game is absolutely not worth that level of effort, particularly if others in the game have played with the person and can BoP them for me. Sure, they might be scum lying or something, but I've found people rarely lie about things that can be checked.

Plus, I'm pretty confident I can decide if he's bad or not as the game goes on.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Interesting. Was TPFKAP possibly distancing here?

Like, just look at this, let's even accept that Nancy honestly thought TPFKAP knew exactly who their teammates were.
Is she *agreeing* that this is distancing?
Is she *disagreeing*?
Is she discussing her personal thoughts on anything?
Or is she making noise and hoping someone else will attack a slot for something?

Pedit: I am fine with you not wanting to mine. But at that stage YOU'VE ALREADY TAKEN THE DEBATE AS FAR AS IT CAN GO BECAUSE BUJABER ISN'T GOING TO CLAIM SCUM IF HE'S FAKING HIS THEORY.

I agree you can decided this for yourself and get back to us - I fail to see the point of the debate in helping you, he stated his theory, you noted your hole - thus endeth the excitement.

Sheep me on Nancy Drew?

I suppose it's possible I had it backwards with RC v Tora.
But I still feel that the manner in which Tora declared his 3p read on Elsa, and then bragging about it was over-the-top and unlikely to come from scum.

Thanks for reminding me of this. You all get to be asked the question that I would normally keep to my chats with Drixx in private:

Tora+Elsa scum team, setting up a play as a mafia doctor? Thoughts?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Interesting. Was TPFKAP possibly distancing here?

Like, just look at this, let's even accept that Nancy honestly thought TPFKAP knew exactly who their teammates were.
Is she *agreeing* that this is distancing?
Is she *disagreeing*?
Is she discussing her personal thoughts on anything?
Or is she making noise and hoping someone else will attack a slot for something?

Pedit: I am fine with you not wanting to mine. But at that stage YOU'VE ALREADY TAKEN THE DEBATE AS FAR AS IT CAN GO BECAUSE BUJABER ISN'T GOING TO CLAIM SCUM IF HE'S FAKING HIS THEORY.

I agree you can decided this for yourself and get back to us - I fail to see the point of the debate in helping you, he stated his theory, you noted your hole - thus endeth the excitement.

Sheep me on Nancy Drew?

I suppose it's possible I had it backwards with RC v Tora.
But I still feel that the manner in which Tora declared his 3p read on Elsa, and then bragging about it was over-the-top and unlikely to come from scum.

Thanks for reminding me of this. You all get to be asked the question that I would normally keep to my chats with Drixx in private:

Tora+Elsa scum team, setting up a play as a mafia doctor? Thoughts?

-Cerb

Thor sr me for making logical assumptions based on what was explicitly stated in TPFKAP isn’t?

I don’t even understand what you’re talking about here. EJ claimed to have been on Cheeky, correct? Well, if Toog is LR, then how could he still be alive unless there’s another protective in the game?

???

The fuck are you talking about? I'm not talking about Toog here, so why are you talking to me about them?

I'm talking about *your* slot, and Toog isn't relevant to this at all.
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

RR .. that'd be an even worse way to attract attention as scum. What would be their end goal?

I mean, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you're being bad town. Why can't I assume they're being bad scum while I investigate the hypothetical?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I'm asking for real here not just to dissuade you. It'd be a fascinating scum gambit if they are actually scum.

I mean, Elsa *wanted* to be publicly leashed, ensuring that their heals couldn't be viewed as a threat by any killing entities, while also claiming neutral and thus a potential ally to every faction. Seems like a reasonable path to take if one wanted to minimize the odds of being cross killed for at least one half of your team. They also claimed ascetic, dissuading anyone from spending on action on checking any of their claims.

All in all, reasonable scum line to take, especially if the player in question is known for playing in a "survivor" type way.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Always assume scum is good, town is bad, and any surprises will be pleasant ones. Unless you're scum, then you know scum is good and town is bad

Shh Jingle, let me keep playing with the person who doesn't know that I know these things. (Like literally, you can find a lot of my games where I say this exact thing.)

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Doesn't solve the whole: survivor can't be taken to LYLO problem. And as soon as EJ is lynched, the entire plan unravels.

Also!

Your assumption that people would even remember that Toranaga predicted that EJ was 3P is...optimistic, to say the least.

As you reminded me, town is bad.

Agreed that it's a questionable line though, I'm just saying that I *can* see a universe where it could be done without scum being bad.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I'm asking for real here not just to dissuade you. It'd be a fascinating scum gambit if they are actually scum.

I mean, Elsa *wanted* to be publicly leashed, ensuring that their heals couldn't be viewed as a threat by any killing entities, while also claiming neutral and thus a potential ally to every faction. Seems like a reasonable path to take if one wanted to minimize the odds of being cross killed for at least one half of your team. They also claimed ascetic, dissuading anyone from spending on action on checking any of their claims.

All in all, reasonable scum line to take, especially if the player in question is known for playing in a "survivor" type way.

-Cerb

This would only explain Elsa's actions not why Tora would choose to connect himself to her like he did.

Town cred. The same sort that Thor is trying to draw on when he wants to remind people about his suspicions of TPFKAP. Displaying accuracy in a game makes people more likely to follow your lead in the future.

Again, this is all marginal. *shrug* I only think a very good or very bad player would take this line, someone confident they can easily weather the storm that comes if either party flips, or someone who simply didn't consider these risks.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Your last post didn't show up in pedit or I missread it.

Okay then if you're just playing around...

You're either scum or you have no respect or interest for what I say or do. So nothing personal but I won't waste my time talking to you.

You misunderstood. It was playing in the sense that since you don't know me, you don't have expectations of me. When you respond to me, especially on this subject, you can't just dismiss me out of hand because you assume I know better. Instead, you actually engage with me, which is far more helpful in figuring you out.

Sorry for giving you the impression that I was dismissing you, because that's certainly not the case.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Thor is pushing us for made up reasons. First some meta nonsense I still don’t understand, now he’s sr me for understanding the role of martyr. Of course I understand that role because there was one in Labrynth.

As long as we're pointing out issues with your play;

1. What is the meta nonsense you don't understand?
I'm guessing it;s from your weak attack that I asked you to back up, that all happened here;
viewtopic.php?p=10478530#p10478530
I've been mentioning it a LOT and this is the first time you've even admitted awareness of me mentioning it - which is exciting progress.

2. When did I say I was scum reading you for understanding the martyr role? I never did anything of the sort. Now, I *did* call you scummy for IIoA and said exactly that when I did. But now you're making up a ridiculous straw man to whine about instead.

In a fire scum, go die in it

I’m not and you’d know this if you were familiar with my meta. I read the flip wrong. Ask anyone who’s played with me ever. I do this all the time. I’m surprised RR don’t this. Maybe Chick and Gamma?

I’m not scum, I honestly misread the role flip. Fine, mislynch me then because I will flip town.

@Mod, am I allowed to ask people who are familiar with my meta, to prove I’m not lying here? Or only this playerbase?

The problem is I don't know what head is speaking, so if we're BoP'ing or meta'ing you, I can't speak about anything.

I recommend signing everything for at least one head. ^^

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Doesn't solve the whole: survivor can't be taken to LYLO problem. And as soon as EJ is lynched, the entire plan unravels.

Also!

Your assumption that people would even remember that Toranaga predicted that EJ was 3P is...optimistic, to say the least.

As you reminded me, town is bad.

Agreed that it's a questionable line though, I'm just saying that I *can* see a universe where it could be done without scum being bad.

-Cerb

This and all the previous posts aimed about me...

THIS IS THE FIFTH DAMN TIME THE DISCUSSION WAS BROUGHT BACK AROUND TO TALKING ABOUT MY DEATH.

Pls don't do that while I'm working, and PLEASE for the love of God stop using me as a discussion point too not find scum. I know atleast a few of you are doing that.

Talking about me being mafia doctor for like the 15th time isnt changing anything. Focus on the HoB or other scum teams.

Shush. This is far more about the Toranaga slot than your own. Obviously, if they flip scum, there's a strong case to be made for the necessity of lynching you next, but if you believe they're town(do you? Do you even care?), then you should be fine!

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Honestly RN I'm hoping Nancy sonehow pulls a miracle and convinces everyone the truth of their alignment.

Kinda also waiting for Drixx to appear as well, to be Frank.

Having a Hydra with 1 quiet head is... Terrifying, to say the least.

Really? Why is that?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Just checking in real quick. My dad has surgery in a few hours and I'll be able to read the thread while I'm waiting and take some notes, but it takes me forever to type posts on my phone. Late tomorrow night I should have a substantive set of posts. Cerb and I have talked about a few things during the night and right as day started.

Please keep out of range of lolhammers and such. I've got something that absolutely has to be said today but I'm not done checking things that need to be looked at before I dump the rest of my notes/thoughts on Cerb and we discuss how best to go about it.

For those who know us well ... if nothing in the rest of the posts I need to go back through alters anything, this is roughly equivalent to when we caught Titus slipping and got MS along with her in the first Steven Universe game.

So yeah ... potentially really good. I'm being very thorough to make sure nothing contradicts the logic though. Please leave us the time to do what we do.

Love,
Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

Day flavor cop where people don't have flavor specifically because flavor is game breaking, making you basically a day cop?

...

I just jumped in without reading the context, so I'll go see where and why Chickadee claimed this...but it seems like a silly thing to claim on the face of it...as does claiming knowledge of Nico's flavor.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Thor I feel like you’re really focused on my lurking when I’ve told you guys I don’t have internet at the moment.

I'm not focused on your lurking.
I'm focused on your lack of content when you post.

When did you scan TPFKAP?
Date/time.

To elaborate.

Date/Time of all action submissions, and date/time of the response received.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

SIDE NOTE: Dad made it through the surgery. Surgeons said he did very well.

At this point I'm basically certain Elsa is scum. This ties in with the post I made last night and I haven't talked with Cerb yet so I'm not quite there on dropping the whole thing on the table just yet.

While you guys wait a bit for that ... maybe take a look at our interactions with Flicker yesterday. Please don't SAY anything about them. Just go look so you'll be prepared for the later post. If you catch it, you may want to do some evaluation of your own. If you don't ... that's okay. I expect at least 2 or 3 of you will pick up on it though.

@Chickadee - You need to ask the mod what happens if a "lightning rod" action happens. Having a day ability

sometimes

is affected by things that happened during the night. I can think of some characters Toog could be other than River, but if I was going to give out a JOAT type role in this flavor, I can't imagine I would choose one of those characters OVER River. So it seems to me that one of three things has happened here:

1.) You are telling the truth but your action was drawn to Toog and you just outed yourself to confirm what was pretty obviously an honest claim.
2.) You're telling the truth. Toog is somehow a JOAT type with Lightning Rod who is NOT River (Jayne springs to mind as the most obvious second choice). That would make NR River ... but there's a lot of problems with believing that (will elaborate when I am allowed to).
3.) You're a liar liar pants on fire because Toog is almost certainly River and the only possibility that makes any sense for EJ's claim is Simon and you just claimed to save NR which makes you both scum. The crappy part is it's hard to distinguish 1 from 3 by testing NR instead of you.


* - The reason I say that EJ would be Simon (if being honest) is because it just fits. Simon is among the crew of Serenity but apart. He hires them for a job. He provides his services in exchange for protection. He is threatened repeatedly by Mal throughout the show. His only focus is on keeping his sister alive and safe for the vast majority of the story. Only by the time the movie is ending does that change; I would argue that it isn't until they're buying Mal time to make the broadcast and he takes a bullet (and lives ... thus "BP") for the cause that he finally displays that he's there for any reason OTHER than his sister.


And now I pose a question to you all, because there's a lot of flavor gaming going on despite the moderator clearly wanting the game to be played without flavor breaking it. (That obviously implies that if we all know who we are then a mass claim would obviously break the game). Are we angle shooting here? I mean ... the mod clearly doesn't want this game to be broken by flavor, but we're all trying to discern flavor because we now know from a scum flip that the flavor was redacted to prevent flavor breaking the game. Should we be doing that? Do we want to win that way?

That may seem like a frivolous question but it's not.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

why would you use what seems like pretty legitimate flavour information on two slots that aren't really that useful to the game?

This is a bad argument. Copping inevitable mislynches is a reasonable move imo, because the value of the inno's goes up in that if you cop a strong player and get an inno, they weren't going to be getting lynched anyways. I get the arguments for copping the people driving the game, but still. I disagree that they're bad cop targets in and of themselves(though if one assumes lots of town vigs, just letting them get vigged is even better than copping them...still saves the mislynch. )

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

fuuuuck I had that all typed out. -___-

Here goes again.

I'm just going to paraphrase my role PM to the best of my ability instead of addressing every single thing because there's a lot of overlap of what people are wanting from me.

My official claim is Modified Day Flavor Cop. Once each day I can submit the name of someone and the mod will give me clues as to their flavor. Nothing is straight forward. It's all up to be deciphered. Hints could be something the character is associated with, or an event in the series where I interact with them, literally anything.

The videos I got when I copped Nico focused heavily on River. Simon was there too. But it was mostly people hunting River, Simon finding and saving River, River struggling with what's going on. All abut River. I suppose that could lead to Simon instead.

I copped when he was at L-2, so that if I had doubts I could try to save the wagon. I got the HOB image, and let it go through. I was astronomically busy in the real world toward the end of D1. But I was sure it was scum so I didn't say anything.

I don't really do hinting toward my role. In my experience, town doesn't pick up on it, and scum does, so I just kept it to myself yesterday.

We still need the time you submitted the actions, and when you received the results.

Also...a bunch of River focused images could mean the target is HoB(note, you didn't see Dobson when you copped him, you saw HoB), OR Simon, OR The Operative, OR Jubal Early, OR River.

@Chara: Sorry. I did what I keep bitching at Elsa about, but I just can't stand people taking positions that are fundamentally wrong.
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Still don't really like the reasoning THAT much, but for now I accept it. Personally I'd have checked me yesterday or today, but you do you.

Unless ascetic also stops day abilities, in which case that's very broken. But hey, that'll prove I'm ascetic.

Ascetic generally stops everything, regardless of when the action is submitted.

Maybe this is the time where I should make my standard announce, in a modified form.

*cough*

WE ARE ALL IDIOTS. ALL OF US ARE STUPID. NONE OF US KNOW WHAT THE MODERATOR INTENDED, OR HOW THEY WILL RULE. DO NOT MAKE ANY ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT YOUR ROLE. ASK THE MODERATOR EVERY QUESTION YOU CAN ABOUT HOW YOUR ROLE WORKS AND HOW IT INTERACTS WITH OTHER ROLES/STANDARD MODIFIERS.

That is all.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I submitted the cop on October 12, 7:48pm (Central time)

What are you hoping to get by making me look at time stamps?


Pedit: I specifically didn't check you Elsa because you claimed ascetic.

Both cops, Chickadee, and the time of the submission and the result.

And because they're day actions, knowing what occurred around the time the action was submitted/may have swayed you to make that decision is relevant, as well as knowing if any of your behaviors changed after the submission/before the results, after the result was received, etc.

-Cerb

pedit: Flicker already answered, the mod said generally anything that modifiers voting ability is deactivity in LYLO/MYLO, so they can vote in those situations.

[Reasonably Rational]

I'll humor you this time cerb, but chasing time stamps is not how I want to spend this game, and it will absolutely (and is) kill my desire to participate.

I got the Porkens result shortly after submitting (8:26pm that night)

I copped Nico at the beginning of D2. October 15 4:47pm. I got the result October 15, 5:06 pm. Nothing had even happened D2. I was going off leftover info from D1 in choosing Nico.

Pedit: you're telling me Chara.....I'm chasing time stamps on my phone....

1) Chasing time stamps is incredibly easy to do, and very valuable when you're claiming to have done hidden things(in the Varsoon Variety Hour game that was scrapped, Beeboy caught *two* scum based off of the timing of the submission of a day action).

2) I'm sorry that your situation makes it harder for you to do, but it's still useful, and I love you for doing it. <3

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I'm going to wait for RR to explain himself before I answer that, CT.

I'm at work Jingles, and hadn't looked at any of the times she said yet, and was not aware of when the lynch happened because again, I had not looked anything up yet. If you'll note my entry to the thread today, I even said I was just jumping in and hadn't read up on the context of her claim yet(and I still haven't). I wanted to make sure she had times, which I was going to look at after I got off work/wasn't busy interviewing people at work.

I appreciate your catching that though, +1 for Jingle.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I'm going to wait for RR to explain himself before I answer that, CT.

I'm at work Jingles, and hadn't looked at any of the times she said yet, and was not aware of when the lynch happened because again, I had not looked anything up yet. If you'll note my entry to the thread today, I even said I was just jumping in and hadn't read up on the context of her claim yet(and I still haven't). I wanted to make sure she had times, which I was going to look at after I got off work/wasn't busy interviewing people at work.

I appreciate your catching that though, +1 for Jingle.

-Cerb

Well... This is the exact response that means I might be wrong, but RR is smart enough to know that, so...

Cerb didn't verify the time, despite being sure that timestamp slips can catch scum. The argument for this being a scumslip is that him NOT verifying means that he didn't think Chick was lying.

I can say with reasonable certainty that if Cerb and chick are both scum, it is of two separate scumteams. I'm also not really sure I buy the 'didn't check the timestamps yet' thing, given that he's posted 6 times? today.

Thoughts?

Let me let you in on a little secret of my posting habits during the hours of 9AM to 5PM MST, M-F.

I am at a computer much of the time, and I alt tab/change tabs to MS and refresh to read what's happening. When somethin ghappens that warrants mention, I mention it/add whatever information I feel is relevant. I also dump info to Drixx in our slack chat as well. I generally do *not* go back and check things in the past unless I'm having an exceedingly slow day, and today is *not* one of those days.

And yes, I'm smart enough to know that this answer is the one that counters your BoP guilty on me, as it were. I also know you're smart enough to know that I'm smart enough to know to give this answer as scum. What I wonder is why you think I, being smart enough to answer this correctly, am *dumb* enough to miss that this is something that could be used against me, particularly given that slips of this precise nature are the bread and butter of the way I and Drixx approach the game.

Anyways.

Back to work stuff, I do still like the fact that you caught this, and I think it really means you should probably do what Drixx asked, if you haven't already, because you're going to be one of the people I expect to catch what's there to see.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Back to work stuff, I do still like the fact that you caught this, and I think it really means you should probably do what Drixx asked, if you haven't already, because you're going to be one of the people I expect to catch what's there to see.

Did this btw. Kinda wish I'd just waited for the big reveal.

You'll have to tell me why after the reveal happens!

Which will be at Drixx's discretion. I didn't even want him to do the thing where he had people look at our interactions, but he just did it, so he's running that particular show now.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

And, just to clarify, Jingle: You saw a thing? Or did you not see a thing, and think we're crazy for thinking there's a thing to see? Don't say what it is ofc, just looking for confirmation.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

If it's what I think you're talking about, you're going to have a hard time differentiating between bad town/3p/scum slip.

Flicker rereading it has convinced me you're conf. town, if that makes you feel better.

Convinced that Flicker is conftown?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Hey cerbs. Are you cerberus48? I seem to remember you being a replacement account, but can't see confirmation of that anywhere.

Nope, I am not. I have always been Cerberus v6.66, or some derivation thereof, except when I'm in hydra, where I'm still me.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Buj, could you elaborate a bit on your Menno is scum reasoning? Is it all wagon analysis, do you agree with CT's points, or is there some as yet unknown aspect to consider?

Menno fits in my scum pools based on earlier analysis. Of all the people who voted me he was particularly aggressive about it in a weird way. Like he sounded offended by me defending myself and lashing out - that's how scummy I was to him and I think that sort of bloodthirst is fake. He had just replaced in. He was sheeping your case and RR's which are bad cases imo. And there's not much gamesolving/explaining reads/giving cases going on from him in general.

I'm flip flopping a lot on cheeky but I do agree with her TMI thing. And it really gives her townpoints tbh. Now maybe she's wrong about Menno but I think she's absolutely right that given the scum role PM there was something fishy going on around all the unknown role talk. So there's a combination of me trusting my gut over my hesitation on cheeky and I agree with her regardless of whether or not menno himself is the scum.

She should definitely not dismiss chick and you from possibly scumslipping either.

Btw since you're so conversational with everyone.. do you know me by reading my games or have we played before? I don't know who you are.

What case have I made? I certainly havent expressed anything I'd view as a case, and I dont make bad cases(that is, the logic is ALWAYS good, but it is possible for me to attribute improper weighting to other factors, thus resulting in incorrect conclusions overall).

Aight Drixx, you can reveal whenever. I'm not particularly worried about delaying further.

Got it. Will ping him with this.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh. A quick note: if HoB knew they had a traitor(not clear by HoBs flip),then a day flavor cop actually makes perfect sense for scum.

Is revealing it a good scum move? Probably not. Honestly not sure what to think of Chickadee here.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I'm going to wait for RR to explain himself before I answer that, CT.

I'm at work Jingles, and hadn't looked at any of the times she said yet, and was not aware of when the lynch happened because again, I had not looked anything up yet. If you'll note my entry to the thread today, I even said I was just jumping in and hadn't read up on the context of her claim yet(and I still haven't). I wanted to make sure she had times, which I was going to look at after I got off work/wasn't busy interviewing people at work.

I appreciate your catching that though, +1 for Jingle.

-Cerb

Well... This is the exact response that means I might be wrong, but RR is smart enough to know that, so...

Cerb didn't verify the time, despite being sure that timestamp slips can catch scum. The argument for this being a scumslip is that him NOT verifying means that he didn't think Chick was lying.

I can say with reasonable certainty that if Cerb and chick are both scum, it is of two separate scumteams. I'm also not really sure I buy the 'didn't check the timestamps yet' thing, given that he's posted 6 times? today.

Thoughts?

I mean ... you can ask people about my integrity and whether I would lie about real life for advantage in a mafia game. That said, I can tell you the following:

My dad had surgery today. He got out early afternoon and I finally got to talk to him around 5:30pm and then immediately had another obligation that went until nearly 11pm. I'm just now getting home.

I know from talking to Cerb briefly right after my dad got out of surgery that he was pretty tied up until at least 10pm my time. I know this because he is part of a DND group I DM for and we set up a webcam and mic at our LGS so he can see the combat layouts and interact with us. We were trying to arrange a side session for him because he missed this week and has some stuff he needs to accomplish apart from the rest of the group.

So ... today's real life for both of us explains why neither of us actually checked the time stamps yet.

Good looking out though. Like ... the way you went with this (at least up until the post I'm quoting) came off as SUPER town. Your read just got a Town++.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Town players: Look at your role PM. I want you to

LOOK

for now but make no comment in the thread yet. There are three potential outcomes to this, and the best one would be snagging multiple scum, so please bear with me.

Let's look at the sample Role PM and break it down into its components:

Greeting: Hello {Name}

Role Paragraph, broken into several parts:

1.) Character: You are {Redacted but revealed on flip or end of game}. <--- From TPFKAP's flip we see that scum actually know who they are and also get a very hard to miss warning that we do not.
2.) Flavor: A sentence that gives a bit of flavor but isn't really the role.
3.) Role: Role Mechanics

Win Condition

---

So ... that's the sample.

In the part of the role paragraph I numbered "2" above, there's something

very specific

in our role pm. I suspect that it exists for most/all of town. So ... go take a look. It should be wildly obvious to you if you have it. And as a reminder, I will point out that Flicker claimed having a Role PM that went from the redacted sentence

DIRECTLY TO THE ROLE NAME/MECHANICS

when asked.

So ... what next?

1.) Assuming the sample PM and our PM are representative, then those of you who are town are going to see what I'm talking about. The problem is that the moment any of us say it precisely (or one of us flips), then that bit of info ceases to be of any value, other than the obvious part where Flicker appears NOT to have it.

It seems very unlikely that we can catch anyone else out at this point, assuming this actually is the way I think it is. They're alerted now.

But maybe there is a way to perhaps catch someone or perhaps confirm some of you.

I suggest that I make a timer and people prepare a spoiler button answer to what they have and preview it to ensure it's correct and then have that copied and ready to go. When the timer expires everyone posts theirs (and we post ours). It will only be useful if someone tries to fake but doesn't have what we have and/or for the small few people who actually are willing to make a post in a very short window.

Maybe all it does is confirm us to people who have the same thing and give strong evidence of Scum!Flicker. Maybe we get more out of it. I dunno ... I thought about it all day and I couldn't think of a better way to leverage it.

But I do know that from the sample and from the setup spec that has gone on today that it's pretty likely most or all of you who are town with us have some variation of what we have immediately following the redacted character name part of the role PM.

Apologies if it's not super coherent. I'm going to go sleep now. I'll check back in a few hours and see if this made sense to people. I'm open to better ways to try and get +EV out of it but I think there's not many plausible ways really.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

Apologies if it's not super coherent. I'm going to go sleep now. I'll check back in a few hours and see if this made sense to people. I'm open to better ways to try and get +EV out of it but I think there's not many plausible ways really.

oh good, you noticed.

Noticed that he wasn't super coherent, or something else Chara?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

that there aren't too many good ways to get max EV out of what you two noticed.

Yeah.

Lots of discussion about it. I'm pretty sure we shouldn't have actually said *anything* and just made the appropriate push(es) with other reasons, but *shrug*. Misplays may have been made, we'll see.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I mean ... "You are flying pumpkin that shoots lasers out your arse" or whatever the precise wording of the sample PM is ... isn't actually role info. It's flavor. Specifically ... it's flavor that explains the role.

We have flavor that gives the motivation for our role. I would expect at least 5 or 6 of the characters on the ship to have something very similar to ours.

As far as the mason claim goes: there's two obvious mason pairs who are unambiguously and obviously going to be town if they are used in this game. One doesn't make sense. The other does. If you are that pair of people, I would actually expect that it would have been difficult to give any flavor explaining your mason connection that would not ALSO have given away which characters you are. (The pairs I'm thinking of: Simon and River; Zoe and Wash).

Make of this what you will. I was in a hurry and misplayed so the question now is whether to go anywhere with this. I also already raised the ethical concern of whether going along these lines is even something we want to do. Like ... if it is true that every town role pm was constructed with some kind of flavor statement that transitions into the role mechanics ... then using that would bypass the obvious mod intent of NOT breaking the game by flavor. But ... when I asked this question earlier the only reactions were opposite of this line of thinking.

So I guess we'll wait a bit and let folks check in and decide if they want to do anything with it. If not, I'm personally happy to divulge what we've got. At this point, I can't imagine any town seriously having any doubts about us which means we're probably going to be killed off because I misplayed.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

@Jingle can we just lynch Bujaber? They seem to be missing the point, and given the other suspicion of them...it might do well to resolve the entire situation. Either our suspicions about what we've found are wrong, OR this ignorance they're showing actually means what we think it does.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I’m intentionally not leading wagons today as is my right as a claimed mason.

I won’t stop you though and may or may not give you my vote if you go there.

Speaking of this.

You do not have a right ot lead any wagons until 1) your partner explicitly confirms the masonry, and 2) one of you flips as town mason.

Until then, you're just as likely to be ballsy scum as town.

JS.

Like, two games ago Drixx and I won as quasi-scum via claiming mason with our scum partner.

Note, I do not want you to claim etc. I'm just reminding everyone that such claims should not be accepted as truth until there is a flip to support it. I get why you wouldn't want to expose the partner as an actual mason, so I don't want that to happen, but scum fake claiming would do the same.

-Cerb

pedit: Bujaber, it is literally impossible for your flip to prove us wrong on ANYTHING. I don't even have a position on you. The only thing your flip would do is let us know if what Jingle, and Chara, and others it seems, is universal. If it's not, which we don't expect it to be, that doesn't mean it's not something that could be used to confirm some individuals, which was the point. ^^

[Reasonably Rational]

Can we just all agree that I’m wash, even if A50 accidentally flips me as Zoe? I needs me some little plastic dinosaurs.

Done.

pedit: Bujaber, it is literally impossible for your flip to prove us wrong on ANYTHING. I don't even have a position on you. The only thing your flip would do is let us know if what Jingle, and Chara, and others it seems, is universal. If it's not, which we don't expect it to be, that doesn't mean it's not something that could be used to confirm some individuals, which was the point. ^^

Fine if this is true then I don't understand your entire flicker thing so I'll stop talking about it.

Also, just to be clear, I'm not trying to be an ass here. I know our interactions have been more antagonistic than I'd like, at least. Even if we're not on the same side, I still want us to all have fun, and hell, again, even if we're not on the same side this game is like 99% multiball, so you could still help us find the other bad guys.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@RR - you're not coming off as an ass don't worry. You just don't get me and I'm not enjoying playing/talking mafia with you. Other topics sure anytime outside the game

After the game I'd appreciate a candid conversation with you about what we're not getting/how we can better get you, so things aren't like this in the future. I don't want anyone to not enjoy playing mafia with me.

If you'd rather not I understand.

Anyways, back to game stuff.
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I feel like people are too willing to just hand wave a lot of the events going on in the game. So if we are going to just stop giving a crap about certain players because other players vouch for them, can we all just agree everyone is town and the game is over?

Here's my list of people I don't want lynched.

Jingle
Jingle's buddy

Thor
Reasonably Rational

I couldn't care less about anyone else and am willing to wagon the shit out of them if it means

we can at least stop believing people at face value

. Lots of AtE, "too scummy to be scum," and "Let's sort it later," shit going on.

Please elaborate on how you're managing to hold those two thoughts in your head at the same time, and even expressing them in one post.



-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

You do not have a right ot lead any wagons until 1) your partner explicitly confirms the masonry, and 2) one of you flips as town mason.

I'm claiming pretty much the opposite. I'm allowed to be useless-ish because my role will sort itself when my partner decides to out themselves. I'm a lower priority sorting target than anyone but Chickadee at this point, because given my claim I'm gonna get shot sooner rather than later.

Not saying I'm gonna be full on useless, but that I'm more interested in what people come up with than whether they'll sheep me atm.

I know you're claiming that. That's just my standard response to people doing something like claiming IC in some form without actually backing it up mechanically. People are inclined to just believe such claims before they should, making sure town isn't being dumb.

I mean, I'm pretty sure that you're independently town for other reason, but I'm pretty paranoid. ^^

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Malaria, did you read my post about the other people who could return a river centric result?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

That l-2, I would appreciate slowing down until at least Drixx posts again.

Thanks.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Seriously, someone unvote. Its anti-town as fuck to put someone in hammer range while someone else(who you at least town read enough to jot want to lynch) has asked for a little more time to resolve something.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Why wouldn't you just unvote, rather than fake hammering? What the fuck does it cost you?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Entertainment. It gives me entertainment.

Besides, you'd rather a townie unvote anyway. Not leave me open to qucikhammer if I'm off the wagon.

Clearly

Im an untrustworthy 3p who shouldn't be given such a task.

I didn't ask what it gave you. I ASKED WHAT UNVOTING COSTS YOU.

I couldnt give less of a fuck who unvotes, I just dont trust people to not vote without realizing it's a hammer, because people are stupid.

Drixx can't log in for a couple hours(but can text. Idk,whatever), and wanted me to tell people that hed be back and share shit he wants to share before our expected death tonight, and he'll hammer.

So relax.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Chick's probably town, for me the issue is the River-centric posts not always having to point to River. Chick said the cop is supposed to hint at the flavour, not blatantly state it.

do you care if you're lynched?

i'd prefer if I wasn't lynched.

Can I get something better than you'd prefer not? Nobody (usually) WANTS to get lynched.

So I figure at this point the damage is done so I might as well point out what we have. Either A50 just thought we needed some extra special sentences or else most/all town also have some extra flavor they weren't considering flavor since it's a lead in to their role explanation.

We have a redacted character name. Cerb and I believe the best bet for us is Book with an outside chance Inara could fit the bill. Book is much better of a fit because of the next bit we have: This ship is your home and the crew is your family. In an effort to protect them, {explanation of what we do}

Followed by: ROLE NAME and EXPLICIT mechanical description of how it works.

I am unsure to what extent this will help at all, but that's enough to be getting on with I think.


@Malakittens - I'm gonna be up a little while. Then I'm going to sleep for a bit. You have like 9 hours to post something of some substance or I will be voting you and there was already L-1 on you. You can do that math.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

I already posted a readlist with what little I have read of the game

again I'm busy enough where I won't be able to read 100 pages.

I already mentioned why I'm townreading who I am town reading. Why I'm townreading Nico slighty even though I felt the slot was scummy before.

The rest i really haven't been able to sort out.

I remember hating multiball because I can usually play it better as scum with a partner than try to find two separate scum teams.

Then we have at least two 3rd parties and one traitor.

I see you slippin. And not the bad kind. How can you possibly have reads but also read so little that you don't know a traitor already flipped?

Also ... role claim. You got nothing to lose here.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

So I figure at this point the damage is done so I might as well point out what we have. Either A50 just thought we needed some extra special sentences or else most/all town also have some extra flavor they weren't considering flavor since it's a lead in to their role explanation.

ehhh i.... don't believe any damage had been done until you were unnecessarily explicit.
what does outing this help? you're already town and you won't be lynched.

what's done is done i suppose.

One of two things is true:

1.) All town have some flavor transition into their role mechanics.
2.) Not all town have it. Perhaps only us.

If 1 is true, then any town flip gives scum what I posted (and the day almost ended before I had a chance to post at all). If 2 is true, then there's nothing to learn from the role PM construction that's useful for game solving.

In all cases, my misplay earlier this day phase already alerted all scum that the warning they got about us having redacted role names was not sufficient for them to fake a town role PM ... at least not with 100% security. That means we only have what came before that post to work with in terms of that, given that it was just too implausible for us to arrange a time where town would drop in an answer to the question within 5-10 seconds so it couldn't be quoted and quickly stripped of bad tags by scum.

And even then since timestamps are to the minute, it would have required me to post every 10 seconds or something to note the time passage.

A lot of trouble for ... at best it would have given some near confirms and broken the game in a way the mod didn't want. So ... eh. I kinda shat the bed on this one honestly.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

My flavor is retracted also. I'm a 3rd party. In order for me to win I need a player to be lynched. if they are NK'd I lose the game. I'm also apparently full Bulletproof in order to help me survive to meet my win condition

So you're the bounty hunter or the operative. What happens if you meet your lyncher condition? Do you exit the game also?

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

I mean ... yeah. That makes you the operative. The Bounty Hunter was after River. Maybe some outside chance you're Niska, but someone else is more probable for Niska so ...

Also ... it feels a little weird to have a lyncher in the game. The way the game is constructed, the player who is Mal almost certainly doesn't know that they are unless A50 made an exception and gave them a lot of explanation. But ... being given that extra instruction would put said player on the watch for something like you're claiming so ... yeah. You gotta just randomly hope whomever got that role gets mislynched?

Like ... I guess there's nothing for it. I'll wait a bit for folks to process, but I don't see any EV in letting you live. You're not on our side and have every reason to try and lynch town reads. If you happen to be alive later and Mal eats it, we have an unexpected numbers change. That makes it hard to have any idea where we stand.

I'm sure you can make all the arguments yourself. You know what happens next. Ka.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

All, saffron, not scarlet. I had to look that up to remember her “real” name.

Yeah ... Saffron wasn't ever any actual threat to Mal. The Operative would have killed him if not for the war wound. Of the two ... the operative is the one who actually had a true purpose in going after him, while Saffron was just a grifter who showed up repeatedly.

Malakittens does make a good point.

As far as EJ goes: Jay is

absolutely

good enough to make that claim as scum and pull it off. And as town. Cerb and I spent some time talking about it already and ultimately we feel like that slot is just going to resolve itself within a couple phases. If it doesn't, then it has to eat rope for all the reasons already stated.

At this point it's probably actually more EV than I thought to leave Malakittens around. There were two slips in that post and even as much as I respect Mala and believe that could have been staged, it and the following posts are just too dead on exactly what to expect if we're seeing honesty. So scum can try and find Mal and know they get an extra kill out of it which bypasses the swing mechanic ... or they can come after one of a few of us who are probably on their list. It's not great but it's more than a pile of slots are offering right now.

I need sleep but I would suggest we find a better lynch target.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

So I’m glad we are going to let Elsa live who is claimed 3rd party who I’m sure hasn’t said everything in the role PM but planning on saying fuck it lets lynch you. Yeah please explain to me how that’s fair because it’s not

-snip-

Malakittens does make a good point.

As far as EJ goes: Jay is

absolutely

good enough to make that claim as scum and pull it off. And as town. Cerb and I spent some time talking about it already and ultimately we feel like that slot is just going to resolve itself within a couple phases. If it doesn't, then it has to eat rope for all the reasons already stated.


~D

Even mentioning the word "Neutral" brings me up again in discussion. And this all happens when I gotta work an early shift at work now. Sigh.

To Mala: Well, you

did

admit to not trying as hard as a 3p with such an ability. Being jealous of a fellow "Neut" seems sad when I dont even screw with your wincon.

Plus it seems some of the town wants to lynch elsawhere so you're fine for now. Why thrower shade at me in particular if not only out of jealously though?

To Drixx: Thanks for the praise and semi-threat in the same paragraph. Always makes my heart tingle with joy. I'll be sure to "resolve" everything for everyone when the right time comes.

It's not a threat my friend. It's just the reality of the situation. We gotta play to our wincons. Help keep us so far ahead of scum that we need not worry about you taking a win with scum and there's no reason to worry too much about you.

But ... there comes a time where we are gonna have to rope you ... just the way it is. Didn't say I was happy about it. I'm a fan of new ideas with 3p/neutral characters and making them more deep and interesting. We'll see I guess.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

What is the PoE anyone who isn't Jingle?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Character, Cheeky, and Jingle are out of PoE due to their preemptive reactions to what Drixx and I were doing. Less Cheeky than the other two(who said things that made it clear they were talking about the same thing) but she still gets some degree of credit. Elsa and Mala are 3p claims qnd NOT our of the PoE, but can wait until we have a town death.

Those are the only people I can see a compelling reason to not lynch off the top of my head while posting from bed. :p

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh, and toog.

Did I miss Thor doing or saying something that makes them unlikely to be scum?

Also: Congrats Thor! <3

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Pretty sure it's the height of insanity to lynch Toog today.

Also pretty sure it's the height of insanity to assume Nico/Tails is River, given that our only evidence of Chickadee's ability working did not result in an image of the persons role, but of people associated with them.

Honestly, I'd be more inclined to think Chickadee should look at the information she received, and see who *doesn't* show up at all in her clues, among the people I listed as individuals for whom a river clue would be appropriate.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Plus he is literally Mason hunting.

Yep, sorry, I'll try not to game solve in the future. I should have just posted that in the mafia pt.

When the plan was for me to stay hidden? That’s not gamesolving, that’s unnecessary outing of Town PRs.

Maybe get up your partner's ass for inviting people to figure it out. I at least made sure everyone was on the same page,because if I can figure it out on my own, imagine what multiple players can piece together.

Actually Jingle was pretty clear about letting his partner stay hidden until they wanted to reveal.

Indeed.

Still. Scum motivation for revealing a discovered mason connection is basically nil.

-Cerb