Overkill 1: Serenity/Firefly (GAME OVER)
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CheekyTeeky Survivor
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CheekyTeeky Survivor
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I keep misreading Thor's aggressive tone as scummy I think. Rereading his ISO, his aggression seems directed towards genuine sorting, and it's done in such a way that it's likely to ruffle too many feathers if he were scum.
I did agree with Jingle on the point that Thor does like his vanity wagons as scum, however ime he tends to tunnel hard when doing so. Here he's provided pretty fluid reads (e.g. his progression on Tor going from liking to "trash"), along with a number of scum/town reads, which makes me feel this style is quite different from what I remember of his scum game.
I'm really vibing with his read on Toranaga. I know Chara is pretty iffy about the NDS slot too so I wouldn't be sad if someone shot it :/ ok maybe a little sad but that's what you get for being scum.-
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Yes, but he pushes each wagon he's on, which to me is more likely to come from town as it provides everyone with content to sort the slot with. When I first read his ISO I thought he was just shading but upon closer inspection I see a need to sort for a preferred lynch - rather than intense tunneling. I also like that he's provided some firm scumreads and townreads early instead of waiting to sheep concensus. I also really like his push on Tor after he started the game townreading him - again it's like he's genuinely trying to determine alignment imo.In post 1580, Chara wrote:
i don't find aggressive tone to be scummy, which i mention only to say that it has nothing to do with my Thor scumread.In post 1499, CheekyTeeky wrote:I keep misreading Thor's aggressive tone as scummy I think. Rereading his ISO, his aggression seems directed towards genuine sorting, and it's done in such a way that it's likely to ruffle too many feathers if he were scum.
can you talk about where he's genuinely sorting? it seems more like wagons for the sake of them, which Thor isn't hiding. and that's not scummy by itself, it just means we don't agree on methodology.
There were a few moments I didn't like e.g. forced questioning at the beginning of his ISO and one question he didn't follow up which went unanswered but I think overall the intent is town.
I agree with your mala read. I could see mala/Tor as early distancing. The early push on mala from him which changed to "oh mala/rc townread each other so could be masons" just doesn't make sense on any level. I had to chase up NDS on why the read had changed and that explanation left more questions than answers.-
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CheekyTeeky Survivor
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No need. We both know I'm town and if in doubt it'll be cemented later.In post 1616, Chara wrote:Cheeky i was townreading you heavily based on both tone and content but certain reads and stances and the timing of them make me nervous. i could go and get them in more detail though Jingle did outline a few in posts i liked-
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Being all over the place whilst sorting. Being dumb.In post 1624, Chara wrote:
what are you usually getting scumread for?In post 1614, CheekyTeeky wrote:Yeah I'm vibing pretty hard with Jingle's reads. Him scum reading me is usually indicative of town for players who aren't familiar with me.-
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CheekyTeeky
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No pretty sure there's no scum in this intersect...In post 1671, BuJaber wrote:Intersect: {Toog, Cheeky, RC/Chara, Elsa}
Definitely scum among the intersect.-
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Nico's lurkness is NAI. She does it as both alignments ime. There's Be Yourself Mafia as an example of her lurking as town in a way that's similar to this game.
NSG is 3p in this game too with similar activity levels to this game - active early, tunneling, tapering off.
There's also a sample of my scum meta in it which will make any doubters lol at themselves for thinking I'm scum here.-
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I only realised she could be 3p on remembering that game I linked - yeah it's based on a similar activity/tunnel pattern. The key point is that she wasn't town though.In post 1695, Elsa Jay wrote:Awfully weird to specifically call out her as a 3p though. I dont think anyone was 3p hunting either, which makes this super townie as well, but any other reason she could be 3p besides the activity thing?-
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Which leads me to expand on why Tor townreading you (Elsa) early was scummy.
From a scum POV as far as he's concerned you're not on his team so the first assumption is that you're town. I already laid out my reasons early game about why it was difficult to see you as towny. In Be Yourself Mafia I was scum and NSG was 3p so although people who read her consistently well were scumreading her, I was biased to see her as townie because I knew she wasn't scum. I feel like that's pretty much exactly what happened to produce Tor's early townread on you.-
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I think that if there is more than one scum faction (meaning idk at this point), then it's likely they don't know about each other.In post 1697, Elsa Jay wrote:Well you brought up an excellent point of discussion I tried to do before.
Do you think there's 2 smaller scum teams and 3ps, or a big "main" group and like 2-4 3ps?-
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What reasons do you think I'm scumreading/townreading you for?In post 1700, Nancy Drew Shogunate wrote:Cheeky, when did our slot change from obvtown to nullsscum/scumlean for you?
You are now sr us for pretty much the same reasons that you tr us earlier.
~ Nancy-
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Are you talking about her claimimg her role because she had to in order to get her power enhanced. If she didn't have an incentive to talk mafia, I'm not confident her posting would be any different to here. I'm really defending her slot for town, I just think there's better lynches today, particularly if we consider the likelihood of her slot being replaced at some point.In post 1722, Jingle wrote:NR in that game's ISO is better than in this one. She actually said mafia relevant things in three of her five posts and then got replaced. Comparitively, we have seen 0 mafia relevant things in this game.
I'll crack a beer and read the rest of the game when I have time, but it may take a while, because the postgame makes it sound like reading it is going to be hot garbage. :shrug:
Yeah that game was messy - town gave us the win from fighting amongst themselves. It was amusing from my PoV though-
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EBWOP.In post 1723, CheekyTeeky wrote:I'm NOT really defending her slot for town-
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You said she was the towniest player here. Seeing her as town is not the same as seeing her as 3p, in fact seeing her as scum is probably closer to a 3p role as they do not share the same wincon as town. If you're talking about noticing her crumbing, you weren't the only one to notice.In post 1710, Nancy Drew Shogunate wrote:3p slips which IIRC I was (also) the only one reading it correctly. so bless me and sucks to be not me.-
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CheekyTeeky
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Yeah ok reduce my reasoning down to this.In post 1709, Nancy Drew Shogunate wrote:"tor is scum because I was once scum and townread a 3p"
:thonking:
-tor-
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CheekyTeeky Survivor
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I keep flip flopping on the slot. I explained why I thought Tor was scummy early along the lines of "noway anyone townreads Elsa, it's weird that your talking to RC and I like you know we're both town" early game - I just elaborated on that early suspicion with the help of meta when looking at Be Yourself Mafia. I, like Chara, found his posting got better and when he was bragging about reading Elsa correctly after he claimed, I thought this seems outside of Tor's scumrange. Then after RC left he started lurking again which is very much his scum meta, he finds it hard to be motivated as scum and has to be pulled into playing. So although there are aspects of good posting and stances that I thought come outside of his scumrange, overall the town effort and love for solving are missing which outweigh my hesitation to scumread you. That's why I said I wouldn't mind if someone vigged you because I can't sort you which is very frustrating as working with Tor has been very effective for winning in the past.In post 1758, Nancy Drew Shogunate wrote:After Tora changed to our hydra, you were hardtown reading us, so I’m a little bit confused how you’re viewing Tora’s initial EJ defense as suddenly scummy or at least that’s how it read to me?-
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In post 1530, Reasonably Rational wrote:Thor, unfortunately every wagon this game while you're alive is going to be robbed of that info, because you entered the game seemingly eager to quickhammer someone. I will *never* put someone at L-1 without being okay with them getting lynched without even getting to claim because of that. There will always be similar concern that we not only have to worry about scum lolhammering and trying to get away with it, but also someone of unknown alignnment who has publicly expressed an interest in doing that.
-Cerb
*strokes beard* (my hypothetical one, not Thor's)In post 1760, Jingle wrote:FWIW Thor is a fan of quickwagoning, not lolhammering ime. He (as town) is more than capable of respecting the L-1 -> intent -> claim -> evaluate claim modus operandi. If he chose to hammer preclaim and didn't have a good reason for it, I'd be down to lynch him for BoP.-
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BuJaber the reason your "cross-section" of scum theory doesn't work is because you've looked at the votes out of context pre-flip. You've neglected to see the purpose of wagoning for info which could be valuable later on. Another flaw in this theory is that it is based on the assumption that scum will just jump on every building wagon in the hope of a mislynch which is completely illogical. It makes more sense for scum (imo) to be careful with their voting trail which often leads to either overexplanation or cogdis before jumping on a wagon. Hence it's better to compare people's reasons for jumping on (although you'll need to look at intent rather than taking posts at face value) wagons. Even then using VCA and looking at reasoning is only useful once we know the alignment of the wagonee. What if (although unlikely) both of the two wagons you were comparing were on scum? What if one was on scum and one on town? How do you know both were on town and how do you know the wagoners were intending to follow through with the lynch?
So if your sorting looks like not very useful busy work for the sake of busy work it's not unexpected that people will think you're scum for it.-
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What? Why? To hide the fact that they're mislynching someone? Isn't it in scum's best interest to mislynch town rather than hope the wagons fizzle out? If they were afraid of mislynching wouldn't they just vanity wagon elsewhere?In post 1781, BuJaber wrote:So like townies would not go in there EXPECTING the wagon to fizzle and die. Scum would.
I'm confused.-
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Wouldn't it be more consistent to build a case and stay on one person?In post 1781, BuJaber wrote:I figured the people who voted then unvoted on BOTH wagons would likely contain scum because scum are more likely to be consistent in their approach than town.
How do you feel about Jingle?-
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CheekyTeeky
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CheekyTeeky Survivor
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CheekyTeeky
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In post 1860, northsidegal wrote:1. i don't think that's a very good reason to be scumreading me.
2. i haven't gone through and made some team-mafia-esque massive wallcase on her, no. i literally cannot remember the last time i did that for a scumreadexceptin team mafia. i just don't really do it that often, so i'm not sure why it's something that you expect from town me. that's not to say that i haven't given reasons for why i scumread flicker - i certainly have:In post 247, northsidegal wrote:i think flicker is scum for a very underwhelming opening and a lack of content where i would expect content to be. 63 is essentially RVS at a point beyond when real reads could already have begun to form. she has to be asked specifically about reads by tw before saying anything, and even then i don't think there's much. a lot of the rest of what she's had has been simple straightforward explanations (inherently NAI content wise) or just asking people for reads (gets townread a lot more than it probably should).In post 314, northsidegal wrote:
this is where your line of thinking and mine diverged. whereas you didn't see it as a scumtell, i saw it as a minor one (after checking flicker's previous games).In post 309, the worst wrote:is this a blanket scumtell esp. on an inexperienced player? imo no, it's a newbtell and not a scumtell. ergo I prodded her to produce actual content on how she's reading the game rather than RVSing ( again newer players love rvs)In post 1047, northsidegal wrote:I can say right now thatevery singlepost Flicker made -today- was either IIOA (in the strict sense of the acronym) or pretty much entirely empty questioning. Look through her ISO if you don't believe me.In post 1040, CheekyTeeky wrote:NSG can you case flicker please?
So why didn't you say you don't do cases much anymore rather than go to the length you did explain why casing her was a bad idea at that point in time?In post 1045, northsidegal wrote:
Here's the thing: do you think we're far enough into the day that:In post 1040, CheekyTeeky wrote:NSG can you case flicker please?
1) Flicker has enough content that anything I say couldn't be explained away by it just being early in the day
2) A case I make is actually likely to make progress towards getting Flicker lynched and not just having random votes on and off the wagon?
These aren't rhetorical questions, they're just completely serious questions. Part of the reason why sometimes I guess I don't do much is because I very much so like to give things time so that people can produce enough content where either their newer content makes me rethink my read from their earlier posting, or they have enough posts such that anything I bring up is actually meaningful and won't just be overlooked as an artifact of it being early on in the game.
I mean I've been given various reasons for you not to provide a case on Flicker, yet you've continued to say Flicker is scum with a confidence that lacks conviction when we look at the effort you've put into actually getting her lynched. I pushed that wagon to L-2 to see your reaction and you were nowhere to be seen...and now you're voting for TPFKAP. It all just doesn't make sense to me. If I were confident in a scumread you would all know it and I wouldn't rest until I got them wagoned. You've still got 3 days to get your lynch through, but you're sitting on a null read instead (i assume).-
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CheekyTeeky Survivor
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No they all TMI'd if you read the TPFKAP flip and each players ISO. Jingle was different in that his TMI was about HoB. The other 3 talked about how someone was town because they revealed stuff about their role PM early...therefore they were aware ONLY TOWN ROLES DIDN'T KNOW WHO THEY WERE. Whereas we didn't know if scum had flavour or not.In post 1942, northsidegal wrote:poor interactions with the TPFKAP wagon?
VOTE: McMenno-
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CheekyTeeky Survivor
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Why would you think it cleared anyone if you assumed (from a town PoV) that scum weren't given flavour either?In post 2027, Jingle wrote:
I specced that too, FWIW. I thought it maybe cleared Porkens. It was like, the core hesitancy behind voting him over NR waaaaaay back.In post 2024, CheekyTeeky wrote:The other 3 talked about how someone was town because they revealed stuff about their role PM early...therefore they were aware ONLY TOWN ROLES DIDN'T KNOW WHO THEY WERE. Whereas we didn't know if scum had flavour or not.-
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CheekyTeeky Survivor
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CheekyTeeky Survivor
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In post 1937, Almost50 wrote:You are Lawrence Dobson, an undercover Union of Allied Planets agent in pursuit of Simon and River Tam. You know that mysterious pair going by “Hands of Blue” are also in pursuit of the Tam siblings on behalf of the Union
Look weird Gamma?In post 1302, Jingle wrote:Uh, that would require me to have a knowledge of your allies outside of "Tora is weirdly protective of Jay in a way that is unlikely to gain him towncred, which could mean that Tora's wincon is tied to Jay surviving and thus they might be Simon/River, but if so Jay is river and probably lying about being a doctor because why the fuck would River be a doctor."-
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CheekyTeeky Survivor
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Because I skim reread everyone and felt Gamma town plus mala started off towny to me. I've not liked her lurking since but I figured that's not enough to take my initial impressions away. If her lurking is scum lurking it'll become clearer.In post 2089, Chara wrote:Cheeky, still wanted to know why Mala and Gamma are here.-
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Join mine first. I'll join yours one McMenno actually engages with the game/makes it easier to sort him.In post 2109, Thor665 wrote:Hey, everyone, remember yesterday when Thor had to spend like 3/4ths of the phase repeating over and over issues with a slot's play.
And then said slot flipped scum.
Do we need to do that again?
I can do that again, but it is easier on my inner sense of peace and calm if I could get a couple of sheep on an obvious slot that isn't scumhunting.
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