Overkill 2: A Blood-Thirsty Stallone Themed Game

[Tails]

I'm mad that Toog took my fake claim...

Anyways, I'm a Jinglebell Jester. If I'm lynched before 3p Lylo, everyone loses and Jingle wins. My wincon is to be lynched in 3p Lylo. Also, I'm Bulletproof, so no shooting me kiddos.

[Tails]

Hey Wisdom! Can I buddy you again?

[Tails]

Yay!

VOTE: Majiffy

[Tails]

Town was wonderful.
The game was broken by flavor via mass claim.
And all the scum dropped grenades at their feet. Including my predecessor, who had crumbed scum. Gotta admit. That one took me by surprise.

[Tails]

@profii: Do you think Toog's role is likely scum?

[Tails]

And you don't think there's scum in that group? I'd be on Flavor myself if I wasn't buddying up to Wisdom.

[Tails]

You're also voting RCE. So...

[Tails]

I would ask if you want to be buddy cops, but I'm saving myself for Chickadee. I'm sure she wants to be masons together.

[Tails]

Why is the jester the towniest person.....besides Cheeky.

You're2right2!2I2should2claim2scum2.2

[Tails]

You can get out when you say nice things about me.

We won't kill you night 1.

Buddies?

While that is a nice gesture, it's still not something nice about me. I need to get my self-esteem up if I'm going to solve the game before page 10.

So I should ask you who the scum team is on page 9?

This game's going to be just as easy as the last one. Only I'm going to be on the other side this time!

[Tails]

How many scum are we looking at

Normally I'd say 6-7. But I don't know how far Almost is willing to go for the Overkill mechanic.

Overkill 1 was 17 players. Non-town were a 2-man scum team with a traitor, 2 SKs, a lyncher, and a survivor. So arguably 5 scum in game size that'd be looking at 4. And that's not adding in the lyncher and survivor arguments. We're probably looking at something similar. Assume 7 with 3ps thrown in for good measure.

[Tails]

Sup JibJabs?

[Tails]

[Tails]

Cheekteeky looks like surface scum hunting. Basically asking questions that give nothing and read as oh I'm going to ask this because i can, not because i want a response.

I've been down this road. It doesn't mean as much as you think it does.

[Tails]

Yay!

VOTE: Majiffy

Hu da hell r u

A fluffy masochist.
I've brought the whip. Have you brought the safe word?

[Tails]

This is just a miscommunication in tone because it is a forum setting. And it's redundant already.

Admittedly I didn't look at the Hebi games that we're brought up, I think that's a legitimate read from RR so despite the non-issue between them and bef, RR is town.

Your suit is looking shiny Mr. Knight.

[Tails]

In post 228, pinturicchio wrote:
In post 221, RCEnigma wrote:
This is just a miscommunication in tone because it is a forum setting. And it's redundant already.

Admittedly I didn't look at the Hebi games that we're brought up, I think that's a legitimate read from RR so despite the non-issue between them and bef, RR is town.

I second this with violence.

Also, I agree that RR's read on Hebi was the first detectivesque post and not mine. I believe that RR's effort to take us out of RVS is very clear right now, and I like that. And by like it, I mean "I want you to be town" like it.


This post strikes me as pockety.

~Nancy

I thought so too. Let Dva know you guys can pocket me instead.

Spoiler: You can pocket me

[Tails]

But seriously, I hope RR is keeping track and seeing what I'm seeing.

[Tails]

did nancy finally roll scum

VOTE: drewva

She was scum last game.

[Tails]

I actually have a role that gets charged from getting shot with a night kill, so I’m okay with thatz

Based on the lessons Almost took from the last game, this is not town. I'm not sure it's scum, though.

[Tails]

I'm not aware of Nancy's meta but on the strength of DVa I'll say it was TvT.

VOTE: RCEnigma

[Tails]

Jealous you don't have a spiffy buddy?

Haven't you heard? Chickadee and I are masons.

[Tails]

@Fishy: It's page 20. Who are the scumz?

[Tails]

@RR: How would you feel if I got Amzela lynched?

@Wisdom: Why are you townreading Amzela?

[Tails]

Spoiler: Profii made a list

Let's see if I can do this, I'm gonna quickly flick through isos and sort into 3 categories if i can.


more towny than scum:
DrewVa (DVa & Nancy Drew 39)
farside
Alchemist21
Varsoon
Gamma Emerald
Thor665
hebichan

Too early to tell:
Flavor Leaf
Malakitty
RCEnigma
Toogeloo
BuJaber
davesaz
Chickadee
DrippingGoofball
CheekyTeeky
Fortian (DeasVail & Regfan)
Majiffy
Amzela


more scummy than town:
Creature
Reasonably Rational (Drixx & Cerb)
Tails
Wisdom
pinturicchio
BrightEyedFish

VOTE: RR

@Profii: I think you're off when it comes to your scum list. Except maybe Fishy. But yeah...need to sharpen up those reads dude.

[Tails]

Seriously Wiz? Nothing on Amz?

[Tails]

It just seemed like you were asking her advice. But I might have just misread that.

I don't like the naked vote either.

[Tails]

@Dave: Don't care. He's earned the right to live today.

[Tails]

I'm less watching her and more watching Cerb watching her.

[Tails]

Spoiler: Profii made a list

Let's see if I can do this, I'm gonna quickly flick through isos and sort into 3 categories if i can.


more towny than scum:
DrewVa (DVa & Nancy Drew 39)
farside
Alchemist21
Varsoon
Gamma Emerald
Thor665
hebichan

Too early to tell:
Flavor Leaf
Malakitty
RCEnigma
Toogeloo
BuJaber
davesaz
Chickadee
DrippingGoofball
CheekyTeeky
Fortian (DeasVail & Regfan)
Majiffy
Amzela


more scummy than town:
Creature
Reasonably Rational (Drixx & Cerb)
Tails
Wisdom
pinturicchio
BrightEyedFish

VOTE: RR

@Profii: I think you're off when it comes to your scum list. Except maybe Fishy. But yeah...need to sharpen up those reads dude.

I'm a little skeptical of full lists this early in such a large game. What are your thoughts on that aspect of Profii's post?

I think Creature, RR, and Wisdom are more in their town range than scum atm. Not my first picks for putting on a scum list, especially over that large null area. I might get onboard with Fishy, but I haven't seen too much of him. Pint is a townread of mine, and I think he should be obv. town enough. And I'm me, so while I appreciate being put this low for lynch purposes, I also know that given my actual role and the company I'm being placed with, this list just feels off.

But given that Profii's list

is

controversial, I think he has a good chance of being town here.

[Tails]

He actually said many would consider the game to be bastard. Just no moderator lies.

[Tails]

I'm sorry, mam. Would you like a Hot Pocket, mam? Where would Mistress Hebi like me to vote, mam?

[Tails]

I'm sorry, mam. Would you like a Hot Pocket, mam? Where would Mistress Hebi like me to vote, mam?

Wisdom.

But then I'd have to rely on Intelligence or Charisma, and then where would I be?

[Tails]

@Nancy: Why couldn't that be a genuine belief or statement that Wisdom could have made regardless of alignment?

[Tails]

@Nancy: Why would scum Wisdom send you a link to a scum game when he'd know for sure you'd catch that?

@Wisdom: Why would backwards logic make you stop pushing Nancy if you really thought she was scum?

[Tails]

If you think he's 3p, why are you trying to lynch him instead of finding group scum?

[Tails]

His quote would have linked back to his scum game. Why would scum Wisdom do that?

[Tails]

Nancy is arguing that Wisdom referencing a scum game is significant. I'm asking her why scum Wisdom would do so.

[Tails]

Who do you think is scum here?

If I had to choose between you and Wisdom? I'd choose you. Other than that, I'm sheeping Thorsoon on RCE, because I think there's some weight there. Other than that, just waiting to see what shakes out. Reads should be clearer by the end of the day.

[Tails]

I wasn’t asking between me and Wisdom but why would you choose me anyhow?

Your freakout reminded me of Overkill 1 where you overreacted and preemptively fake claimed.

Why do you think RCE is scum?

Spoiler: Come with me on a little journey...

This is just a miscommunication in tone because it is a forum setting. And it's redundant already.

Admittedly I didn't look at the Hebi games that we're brought up, I think that's a legitimate read from RR so despite the non-issue between them and bef, RR is town.

Your suit is looking shiny Mr. Knight.

Town will try to intervene in an argument to prevent the thread from being clogged up, especially if the argument does nothing to further the game or discovering of alignments. It's to keep scum from hiding in the chaos. This doesn't look like that. It happened way too early in the conversation and cut down interactions that could have been used to find reads. It looks more like RCE is trying to intervene in the fight more as a means to look good, as a peacekeeper. I also don't like how he used "legitimate" when throwing out a townread on RR. Especially given that he didn't look too hard at RR's case against Hebi. The read feels fake and feels too much like he's trying to get on RR's good side.

In post 228, pinturicchio wrote:
In post 221, RCEnigma wrote:
This is just a miscommunication in tone because it is a forum setting. And it's redundant already.

Admittedly I didn't look at the Hebi games that we're brought up, I think that's a legitimate read from RR so despite the non-issue between them and bef, RR is town.

I second this with violence.

Also, I agree that RR's read on Hebi was the first detectivesque post and not mine. I believe that RR's effort to take us out of RVS is very clear right now, and I like that. And by like it, I mean "I want you to be town" like it.


This post strikes me as pockety.

~Nancy

I thought so too. Let Dva know you guys can pocket me instead.

You can pocket me:

He's actually trying to pocket you guys. Not very subtly, might I add.

I'm not aware of Nancy's meta but on the strength of DVa I'll say it was TvT.

VOTE: RCEnigma

RCE is again stepping in the middle of another 1v1. Then he drops that he thinks it's TvT. I know it's cliched, but everyone's spider senses should be going off right about now. Gut immediately kicks back "informed minority".

Two other things. First is that RCE was the first to explore Wisdom as SK. He didn't start as scum, like you did. He immediately jumped to SK, which means he's 3p hunting. Second, I feel pretty good about Varsoon and Thor as town here. And they're both strongly on RCE and are calling for sheeps. That they're doing so should tell you that they are not RVS voting RCE. I'll follow them onto a wagon for great justice any day.

[Tails]

What weight exactly? Despite most of Varsoons case being based on RVS....still, I can at least see his process. Thor's wagon was literally just RVs from an offhand read.

On my wagon I only see really two votes with Town intentions and one (yours, that may or may not be) that I can see built from my play though you haven't elaborated.

Coming back around to this. You dismissed Varsoon and Thor as RVS. So they can't be the 2 votes with town intentions. So...how are Majiffy and Bujab town intentioned votes? I'm pretty sure Majiffy just naked voted you. And if you do mean Varsoon and Thor, how can their votes be driven by town intentions if they're random and meaningless?

[Tails]

Because I don't have as good a read on you as I have the others.

[Tails]

I just took Wisdom's vote on the slot as a placeholder. I'm not sure why you're running full throttle into not only thinking there's significance, but then basing it on meta, as if you need to justify your vote.

[Tails]

What are your reads on the following then?
Creature
RR
Wisdom
Pinti
Fishy

[Tails]

I do hope that Fortian gets back to me quickly. There are about 3 levels of questions regarding that assumption line, of which #589 was the first. I'd rather not have to put it off until tomorrow because of the end of a work day. At that point, there will be another 10+ pages to cover, and the Fortian examination could slip into the background.

[Tails]

Do you even know what town ranges look like for Creature or RR? Do you think I'm making that up? Or perhaps I'm acting more confident than I really am, because that makes it easier to get early reads? Or something something how dare you engage on reads something?

[Tails]

Oh, also, do you not think that someone could have strong stances on the slots listed and disagree and not like the placement on a list that seems ill defined in the first place?

[Tails]

There are many leaps in logic here based on assumptions that I am uncomfortable with!

Nope. Not being shrugged off here.

Level 2:

Too early to tell:
Flavor Leaf
Malakitty
RCEnigma
Toogeloo
BuJaber
davesaz
Chickadee
DrippingGoofball
CheekyTeeky
Fortian (DeasVail & Regfan)
Majiffy
Amzela

You're okay with this broad null level? Am I wrong calling out the weirdness of the scum reads? Flavor, RCE, and Bujabers have talked enough to be sorted, even by that point in the game. Surely something could be said about Toog's claim and where that likely lands him on the reads list. Heck, there are some weird naked votes in there. Nothing? How is that call out a leap in logic?

[Tails]

Actually, just going to throw the other level in as well, because I'm not waiting until I can post again tomorrow.

Do you disagree with me that the weirdness of how Profii approached the list and put it together makes him likely town? Because I would think scum would try to appear to do more or to have the list be tailored more to the game, which that list does not show. And if that's your sticking point, that suggests a Profii scum read, which I don't believe you've expressed.

[Tails]

There are many leaps in logic here based on assumptions that I am uncomfortable with!

So yeah, there are only three places where you could disagree with assumptions that I made. Either 1.) you disagreed with my thoughts on the scum list, meaning your reads drastically differed from mine there, 2.) you don't find that large null area too surprising or odd and actually agree with it and/or 3.) you disagree with my assertion that the oddness of the list means profii is likely town, pointing to a scum read of the slot. And if any of those points were actually important to you, I'd expect you to actually engage on those points and say exactly what made you uncomfortable, which is the whole point of profii posting that reads list. But nope, wholesale handwaving of my thoughts on the scum part of the list and profii in general. And there's no way of telling what you disagree with or if you just thought I was scum posting.

But no. Just tell me to stop pushing you now. Right...

[Tails]

I disagree that Profii's list makes them town, but I do respect your interpretation. I would argue that a reads list such as that can look like "work" without actually having much effort put into it. And my initial scumread on Profii largely came from their early posts, particularly their first posts appearing to be an attempt to "fit in" rather than natural conversation, as well as their response to me. I do not have feelings as strong in regards to profii's later posts though.

I would think scum would try to make a more complete reads list. That would be looking like work too, but also look like a larger contribution. I didn't see that with profii's list.

[Tails]

5 page challenge (it's all you need to find at least 1 scum):

Read pages 1 to 5 and tell me who scum is.

That sounds too much like work.
...
Maybe later tonight. When I'm bored and have no one to talk to.

[Tails]

I don’t need to justify my vote.

Really? That's what the meta-dive looked like to me.
And no. Not going to go look at another game. Don't really care. Only care what it feels like. And right now, it feels skeevy.

You don’t think there’s any significance? Why not? *confused*

Wisdom voted Majiffy immediately before Majiffy had even posted. I'm pretty sure he's just keeping his vote active and using Majiffy as a placeholder.

[Tails]

My thoughts about this last 8 pages: the tinfoil hat is back, babyyyyyy. Wisdom and DrewVa's drama finishing with both voting the same slot seems staged. But I'll leave the tinfoil hat saved for later.

Wisdom's vote kinda makes sense. Drew's makes me want to ask you to pass the tinfoil.

@Tails we have to talk sweetie. I would say profii is more likely scum for his list than town. Not because of the content (well that's something too) but because of the intention: big big game, scary game, you want to be active or seem to be 'cause lurking as scum is good strat and people could hunt you down for staying out of focus while someone else steals the show. profii said it himself. So let's say profii is scum and it's scared of a huge list of players who seems to know each other and know what they are doing. The best way to look busy is to create an early readlist and EXPLICITLY SAY "I'll reply to anyone who ask me about my reads" or something like that. So: profii doesn't create any content 'cause that's too risky. Instead, he waits for the rest to create content for him; if you ask, confront or agree with profii about one of his reads, you will give him the chance to look busy by replying whatever you say. That's the best way to stay engaged when engaging looks scary.

Okay. I just disagree. But I think we can both agree that we won't ultimately judge profii by that post alone.

[Tails]

But seriously, I hope RR is keeping track and seeing what I'm seeing.

This scares me.

Your boyfriend is mine! Mine! And you can never have him back!
Muwahahaha!
*Ahem*
Anyway, want to go a little deeper on that?

[Tails]

Reminder to self to look at #719 later.

[Tails]

I skipped the last 10 pages.

From skimming though, I'm thinking Creature is scum. I vaguely remember Tails (I think) saying Creature was in town range. Please clarify.

I liked the few posts that I saw from him. I think it's too early to call him inactive or anything. Again, will reevaluate later in the day.

[Tails]

Thor gives me bad vibes.

[Tails]

I expect more activity from creature,

thor, RR

, CT.

Both Thor and RR have posted every day. Was there more you were expecting there? Were you expecting uber posting?

[Tails]

I dont get multiball from that
Why cant it apply to singleball

I think after Overkill 1, Almost is going to try to pump up the carnage. Multiball does that.

[Tails]

I will have you know that I am the most adorable tiny Asian chick you have ever seen and I will defeat you and win back my boy with the power of God, anime, and a moon prism.

I am pumped and want this crossover to be a thing! Coming soon to Netflix!

[Tails]

i remember nothing from thor

I remember liking his RCE push.

[Tails]

I see, Tails who were your scumreads again?

You and Drewmba. Could be sold on Fishsticks. Everyone else is separated into likely town piles or don't care piles. I could jump on anyone in the don't care piles if you paid me enough.

What do you think about the 3p reads on wisdom?

Definitely scum somewhere in there. That's not a natural thought to come from town.

[Tails]

If you're looking for a specific read, you'll have to ask.

[Tails]

Not with that reaction. She wouldn't have backed off Wisdom earlier if that was the case.

It also depends on whether the mod gave the lyncher a player name or flavor name. Last game it was a flavor name.

[Tails]

If player, told to lynch Wisdom. If flavor, told to lynch Rambo Balboa.

[Tails]

I started to type Drewva, then thought of a Roomba. I thought it'd be funny, so I typed that instead.

[Tails]

RR made note that Thor was acting more like his scum self in that game, so maybe not? Also, I think we have a few more strong personalities in this game.

[Tails]

5 page challenge (it's all you need to find at least 1 scum):

Read pages 1 to 5 and tell me who scum is.

Well, obviously you think RCE. Out of the first 5 pages, the only thing that sticks out to me on a reread is his sudden declaration that Cheeky was town when Cheeky hadn't done anything. Thor caught that too, and then RCE pivots from Thor and Cheeky ignores Thor's attempts to get her to join the wagon. Hebi is meh. RR's entrance still reads bad, but later posts make up for it. I see what you're saying on Fort, but I'm not convinced that means scum. RCE and Hebi look the worst out of those 5 pages, with an outside chance of Cheeky. I need more information on that last, though.

How about you stop beating around the bush, though, and go into more depth?

[Tails]

@Fort: Did you notice that Cheeky started to put together a list in the same manner as profii?

[Tails]

Not sure yet.

[Tails]

I looked back and compared timing. It may just be coincidence.

[Tails]

I mean making it in the same way a la doing skim ISOs then assigning places.

[Tails]

I don't think I paid much attention to Fishy's list as much. I just noticed him reading through a lot of pages really quickly.

[Tails]

Going to catch up on Monday.

This is a prod dodge.

[Tails]

I'm back. I'm reading. Won't comment on things unless I find it important to do so.
Might do a little real time interaction, but don't hold your breath.

[Tails]

Can someone explain to me why we're not voting the Drew hydra anymore? Because I just finished with the RR nonsense, and I really want that slot dead.

[Tails]

Ok prepare to be amazed:

{Farside/Alonzo, Fortain, Profii}
{Fish, Chick, Gamma, Hebichan, Pint, RCE, Tails, Varsoon, Wisdom, RR}
{Creature, Davesaz, Malakitty}
{BuJaber, Flavorleaf, Alchemist, Majiffy, Thor}
{Amzela, DrippingGoofball, DrewVa}

{Fortain, Profii, Chick, Gamma, Varsoon}
{Fish, DrippingGoofball, RR, DrewVa, Pint}
{Davesaz, Amzela, Toog (as 3p), Mala, Alonzo, Tails}
{Flavorleaf, Creature, Hebi, Wisdom, RCEnigma}
{Thor, Alchemist, Majiffy, BuJaber}

I didn't post at all during the holiday period, except to say I'd be away until today. So I'm not sure how I dropped from a town lean to full on null.

[Tails]

You really need to read the entire game.

Have I not?

[Tails]

VOTE: Clemency

[Tails]

VOTE: Clemency

I like your vote but can I ask why you decided to vote clem?

Because I felt like it.

[Tails]

Tails, for some reason, I like you. I can’t explain why, but maybe gut just says your town to me. I have a hardcore paranoia you gonna sweep the game.

So...you're saying I need to work harder to get myself killed?

[Tails]

You really need to read the entire game.

Have I not?

I don’t think so, otherwise you wouldn’t have said, you wanted my slot to die.

I've wanted your slot to die for awhile.

[Tails]

@Cerb: What do you make of Nancy pretending my scum read on her is new and meritless?

[Tails]

It's adorable if you imagine that was said in mews.

[Tails]

Ok prepare to be amazed:

{Farside/Alonzo, Fortain, Profii}
{Fish, Chick, Gamma, Hebichan, Pint, RCE, Tails, Varsoon, Wisdom, RR}
{Creature, Davesaz, Malakitty}
{BuJaber, Flavorleaf, Alchemist, Majiffy, Thor}
{Amzela, DrippingGoofball, DrewVa}

{Fortain, Profii, Chick, Gamma, Varsoon}
{Fish, DrippingGoofball, RR, DrewVa, Pint}
{Davesaz, Amzela, Toog (as 3p), Mala, Alonzo, Tails}
{Flavorleaf, Creature, Hebi, Wisdom, RCEnigma}
{Thor, Alchemist, Majiffy, BuJaber}

I didn't post at all during the holiday period, except to say I'd be away until today. So I'm not sure how I dropped from a town lean to full on null.

[Tails]

Just ate so so so much food. Turkey day is great, ya'll.

Anyway
RR doesn't make this play as scum, imo.
Also, Mafia is a game of rhetoric. You should expect that literally anything you post in the game thread is subject to speculation and doubt--if it bothers you that your earnest emotions can be interpreted as rhetorical posturing, maybe avoid games where that's literally a strategy.
I'm pretty much taking you both at face value regardless, for what it's worth;
Like I believe DrewVa is actually frustrated/feeling these ways
and I believe RR legitimately is finding issue with how DrewVa is playing
But like I said
I don't think either of their play is specifically attempting to manipulate others.

I wasn’t upset at having my emotional reactions questioned - it was the unnecessarily pejorative associations with the words he was using. It was - no pun intended - but overkill and with all due resect Varsoon, I have 0 intent of stopping playing games because others - including you - don’t think I have just cause to defend myself here. I have a total right to do that. I agree with you that Drixx wasn’t being scummy but VEHEMENTLY disagree with you that he was not out of line. He 100% was and I don’t see how insisting on having the respect that I or any other player is entitled to - including Drixx/RR - should prevent me from participating in any games. Basic civility is not incompatible with playing Mafia and I am disappointed with you for not seeing the rightness of my side in this.

I think it’s inherently possible that both RR heads have completely misunderstood the rightful basis of my objections to that - due to them - mostly Drixx, unfairly accusing me of attempting to “bully” anyone into not trying to sort me correctly.

I am advocating for being treated with basic respect here - nothing more, nothing less and I won’t ever back down from this stance. On my part, I shouldn’t have called Drixx names but I wasn’t getting through to him otherwise. I’m legit sad and disgusted with the entire thing. All Drixx needed to do, was to apologize for his insensitive, poor choice of wording, while continuing to maintain his reasonable position of my not being defacto townread for my emotional reactions. Had he just done this, none of this hideous garbage would even had occured.

This felt manipulative to me. Compared with the rest of your posting, the verbage really stands out. I see less of the emotions from the previous posts and more cold calculation. And that makes this whole thing read manufactured for the purpose of giving yourself the high ground. Any push from RR dies at this point, and you accomplished here what I failed to in Overkill 1 when I attempted to make RR's push on my slot look personal based on their statements about my predecessor.

Do I believe you were legit upset? Yes. Does that mean that your argument and push back didn't have an ulterior motive? No.

[Tails]

@Cerb: What do you make of Nancy pretending my scum read on her is new and meritless?

I am not “pretending” anything, and you twisting my words is kind of pissing me off.

I am very CLEARLY saying that you aren’t looking at EVERYTHING. But continue to misinterpret this as well.

You implied that I hadn't read the thread AT ALL. You essentially threw me in with the newer posters like Creature and Clemency when you've known I've been scum reading you for awhile. So yes, saying that I haven't read the thread implies that my read is baseless, and therefore, you are pretending that this read is completely without merit and not one I've stated multiple times.

[Tails]

Ok prepare to be amazed:

{Farside/Alonzo, Fortain, Profii}
{Fish, Chick, Gamma, Hebichan, Pint, RCE, Tails, Varsoon, Wisdom, RR}
{Creature, Davesaz, Malakitty}
{BuJaber, Flavorleaf, Alchemist, Majiffy, Thor}
{Amzela, DrippingGoofball, DrewVa}

{Fortain, Profii, Chick, Gamma, Varsoon}
{Fish, DrippingGoofball, RR, DrewVa, Pint}
{Davesaz, Amzela, Toog (as 3p), Mala, Alonzo, Tails}
{Flavorleaf, Creature, Hebi, Wisdom, RCEnigma}
{Thor, Alchemist, Majiffy, BuJaber}

I didn't post at all during the holiday period, except to say I'd be away until today. So I'm not sure how I dropped from a town lean to full on null.

You just did. Feel free to change my mind. Actually you kind of answered your own question. "Why did I drop since I hadn't posted for a few days." I'm not really concerned with you atm.

There's a difference of just a little over 24 hours between those 2 posts. So...a day. And in that time, I posted to say that I would be unable to post until Monday because of the holiday. So is Thanksgiving scummy now? Or do you want to walk this one back?

[Tails]

@Nancy: I've been reading from the beginning. I've even interacted with you since then. And I haven't seen anything to change my mind. I'm still not sure how you can go "Have you read the whole thread?" when I've been here this entire time, and you know I have.

[Tails]

I have 2 tails. I'm used to being special.

[Tails]

Anyway, bigger fish. What are you doing with your vote?

[Tails]

I mean, I'm willing to vote you if you are.

[Tails]

my mother is a fish

[Tails]

She was either red or blue. And she was one of two.

[Tails]

I also think Cheeky is manufacturing her reads.

[Tails]

I’m actually having trouble gathering reads. Is anyone else having this issue?

Not really.
But I also have a lot of "don't care if they die" slots.

[Tails]

I'm actually surprised that Fishsticks was the only one to question mine.

[Tails]

VOTE: Malakitty
Creature
DrewVa
Alonzo
Alchemist21
RCEnigma
BuJaber
Clemency
Wisdom
CheekyTeeky
pinturicchio
Fortian
Amzela

If this is your scum list, I'm with you on Drew, RCE, and Cheeky. I could also do Alonzo, Alchemist, or Clem (obviously).

[Tails]

So what made me a town lean?

[Tails]

Because there should be no reason for that kind of degradation of a read. Null/town -> null is still a drop that shows a loss of a town read. The thing is, there was no reason for such a loss. It makes me wonder if those reads were faked. And I wonder if I took the time to dissect both posts, and if I looked at timing, if I would find other examples. My place is just the most obvious and what immediately stood out. The rest sounds like work.

[Tails]

Oh, here's a good one. How did DGB go from scum to town?

[Tails]

Here are the only posts she made in between those 2 lists:

profil is town.

Also wouldn’t be shocked if Goofball/Majiffy/Wisdom are a team.

LOL I've made like 3 pointless posts, wanna show your calculations to the class?

[Tails]

Problem with your #1159. You use that as justification for DGB going from hard scum to lean town, but 3 of those names that jumped on after the 3rd Majiffy vote are on your town list. So you're saying that your town reads voting DGB makes her town?

[Tails]

Like, RCE is the only scum read you have on the wagon to call it a counter to Majiffy. But he's not really doing any of the driving, so that doesn't make any sense.

[Tails]

Also, 3 town games to 1 scum game is an awful way to develop a meta read. You need at least 2 more scum data points.

[Tails]

Ooh...We're playing that game. Cool.

[Tails]

Last time I was trying to get under your skin.

But yeah, I noticed that discredit.

[Tails]

If you mean asking questions and pushing you because your answers don't make sense? Sure.

[Tails]

You present a post saying that you think DGB is the counter wagon to Majiffy as evidence for why she went from a scum read to a town read. I cross reference the votes that joined after Hebi to your list, which appeared after. Things don't add up. I ask another question.
How is this hard for you to follow?
Also, how is Majiffy being a scumread of yours and a possible counter wagon to DGB make her town? This is most assuredly multiball.
You can say "Look at my reasons!". That doesn't make them good reasons or immune from examination.

[Tails]

For the record, I kinda want to vig Nero and have no opinion on DGB. So wouldn't mind lynching either one, although I think there are better options.

[Tails]

Hot Pockets!

[Tails]

Yay! I'm being voted!

Also, why would I want to convince you you're scum?

[Tails]

You could have avoided all this by not being cagey about your read list in the first place.

[Tails]

Me: "Hey, I'm not sure how your read changed on me during this short period of time. Can you explain?"
*silence*
"Can you please answer the question?"
CT: "Why is it important?"
Me: "Because during a short period of time during Thanksgiving weekend, a period of time where I didn't post, your read on my slot downgraded. I just want to know why."
CT: "Oh, you didn't post? Yeah. That was it."
Me: "But it was during Thanksgiving and those 2 posts are only 24 hours apart. That doesn't make sense."
CT: "I just reevaluated. Based on conversations I had. Stop asking questions."

So I compare the 2 lists to see if anything stands out. DGB's extreme shift catches my eye. I check her ISO for posts between the 2 lists and am confused given Cheeky's reasoning. Cheeky provides 2 other posts to show the read change. The VC in one of the posts has those nice links showing when people vote. I look at the last vote on Majiffy, then look to see who on the DGB wagon voted after that. There are 4. I then compare that to Cheeky's list, given that she said that DGB was town read in part to her thinking it was a counter wagon. 3 of those 4 names are on her town list.

I'm not seeing how any of this is problematic or twisting your words. If you really reevaluated, you could have just said that instead of ducking out when asked and then changing answers when I pressed you further.

[Tails]

Spoiler: @RCEnigma

[Tails]

His not changing his read on me is concerning

Then do something to change my mind.

[Tails]

I just don't like the strongman attitude from tails here. Could be in his range, I guess. But I've seen a lot of things like "earned the right to live today" come from scum trying to position themselves as strong town voices.

Been scumreading him for awhile.

Okay, I just looked up a couple of Tails’ town games and one scum game and I think you may be right.

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=65474&user_select%5B%5D=26783

Tails’ town game

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=72129&user_select%5B%5D=26783

Tails’ scum game.

So...I only have 5 games that I've played with this alt. The last few have been a year apart, but that doesn't matter except to say that between Detective Conan, Jungle Republic, and now, I've kinda forgotten how I tend to play with this hydra. I just follow the keyword: trolly, and go from there.
But still, it shouldn't be that difficult to look at

all

my games. And if you did so, you know who my main is. And if you actually did due diligence and looked there, your argument falls apart in 2 seconds.

VOTE: Tails

He is only agressive like this in his scum games, based on my meta check.

All that to say this, an actual meta check would show that I tend to get aggressive with my pushes. And I don't think I've been anywhere near as aggressive as last game. And in both of these games, my facade has slipped more often than earlier games.

[Tails]

scum!Thor aggressively told me, he wanted me to “die in a fire”, in Overkill 1, so his push on me in that game reads similar to Tails’ in this one.

You got me. I'm a Thor alt.

It’s the kind of over the top kind of thing, that more often than not, tends to come from scum.

Town is usually more like I’m currently scumreading you based on X, give me some reason why should townread you, or words to that effect. Town wants to sort, scum wants to confibias.

Saying that you want a slot to die isn't all that unusual. Or even that you wouldn't mind a slot dying. Speaking of, Nero just said the same thing, and I don't see you getting up in arms there.

[Tails]

For the record,

I kinda want to vig Nero and have no opinion on DGB. So wouldn't mind lynching either one, although I think there are better options.

Why does Tails want to lynch a slot, he has “no opinion on”. This post strikes me as scummy. It reads like he’s putting Nero and DGB on notice but not wanting to vote either.

It's called consolidating lynches. They're not my first options, but I wouldn't mind lynching either if need be.

I was sheeping earlier in the day just because. Why didn't you say anything then?

[Tails]

I dont like the "I dare you" attitude he has on right now and I don't think its town aligned.

First, I don't think I'm daring anyone to do anything.
Second, why would that be a scum indicator and not a personality one?

[Tails]

Also, Nancy scumreading me is hilarious. What is that? 3 for 3?

[Tails]

His not changing his read on me is concerning

Then do something to change my mind.

I have, that’s at least a part of why I’m suspicious of you

Sounds like your problem. Not mine.

Right now all I'm seeing is the same thing I saw with Wisdom and RR. You attack until they either back off or change their mind.

[Tails]

No, I have no idea who your main is. Tell me. Have I played with you before Overkill 1?

I have no idea. That would involve looking through all my games, and I don't want to do the work.
As for who I am, if you actually meta'd this alt, it's pretty obvious. Otherwise, I'm going to play as is. If I wanted to play as my main, I would have signed up under that account.

[Tails]

You insinuated that I couldn't possibly have read to still have a scum read on you after your attack on RR. Not only did I call bull crap on that, I also pointed out the post that really bugged me and led me to believe that you were manipulating the town's emotions in your favor.

[Tails]

All I'm seeing is that whenever anyone thinks you're scum, you either call them scum or a horrible person. You continue to attack them until they back off.
And when I just pointed that out, you then try to turn the subject around again by telling me I must have a low opinion of those you attacked. You seriously just blamed the victims!
I said, "Here's this pattern of behavior from you." Your response is "Well, then you must think very little of them then." Like, how does B come from C?

[Tails]

One of your newest arguments is that I'm not even trying to sort you. But this is really code for "Stop scum reading me and back off!". It always comes back around to someone thinks you're scum, and you either have to say they're scum, an a-hole, not reading, or incapable of reading you. There might be another excuse I missed, but still. Your focus this game has been on what other people think of you and minimizing the damage of scum reads. And that means tearing through the thread like a tornado when doubt on you comes into play.

[Tails]

@pint: Right?! And yet Nancy just said she did a meta dive and couldn't find it at all. Makes me think she just took the 2 most recent non-Overkill games, threw them up, then stated the pre-decided interpretation.

[Tails]

Eh.
I want more Clem votes. I'd like a lynch before Friday.

[Tails]

@pint: Watch out! She might call you scum next!

[Tails]

One of your newest arguments is that I'm not even trying to sort you. But this is really code for "Stop scum reading me and back off!". It always comes back around to someone thinks you're scum, and you either have to say they're scum, an a-hole, not reading, or incapable of reading you. There might be another excuse I missed, but still. Your focus this game has been on what other people think of you and minimizing the damage of scum reads. And that means tearing through the thread like a tornado when doubt on you comes into play.

Nothing you’ve been saying is changing my mind on you, because you’re clearly not trying to sort me. Convince me otherwise and I’ll re-evaluate my read on you.

I could, but we both know this is just empty phrasing to justify your supposed scum read on my slot.

[Tails]

Can we get chickadee today and DGB tomorrow? If I need the puppy dog eyes ok but...

Spoiler: Here you go

[Tails]

You insinuated that I couldn't possibly have read to still have a scum read on you after your attack on RR. Not only did I call bull crap on that, I also pointed out the post that really bugged me and led me to believe that you were manipulating the town's emotions in your favor.

I asked you specifically what your opinion of my posts since then. I’m still waiting for you to answer that.

I feel my opinion on your posts is kinda obvious.

[Tails]

Do it then. Show me that you actually want to read me correctly, rather than just continue to confibias me. Are you worried, your scumread on me might be lessened? Because if I’m wrong here, you know that’s impossible. Yeah?

You have until the end of d2 to prove me wrong. I won't stop poking at things I don't like or understand. So you're not getting off easy. If you fail to convince me otherwise, you're dead come d3.

[Tails]

got it
hi again tails

Please don't vig me again.

[Tails]

I try to be less serious is the main difference.

[Tails]

Hey Drew! Are you going to do something useful with your vote, or are you going to continue to whine about how I'll never town read you?

[Tails]

I'd also like Creature and RR to move onto a wagon that's going to happen today.

[Tails]

Going to try to post a few times tonight. Would really like a lynch to happen within the next 24 hours. I want to roll into work on Monday with a brand new day to interact with and not have to worry about anything I might have missed during the weekend.

[Tails]

Also, waiting on the thread to open during any of the 3 or 4 days I have to be active would be a drag.

[Tails]

I think via the flip we probably have 2-3 other teams

Really? I think you're right via setup spec. But there's nothing in the Clem flip to indicate that.

[Tails]

I think there's definitely scum on Clem given no real counter. I'm thinking Buj is more likely town or not svs with Clem.

Buj was the counter. It took way too long to get those last votes on Clem.

[Tails]

I think via the flip we probably have 2-3 other teams

Really? I think you're right via setup spec. But there's nothing in the Clem flip to indicate that.

Ok I’m gonna have to spell this out
The flavor directly mentions a few different groups that Clemency’s group is up against. The conclusion to be drawn is those are flavored descriptions of the other factions.

My problem is that Clemency role doesn't have a faction attached. He's just plain goon. I'm thinking this is just a mod oversight, but it did have me spinning last night.

[Tails]

VOTE: Nero Cain

Everyone on the Toog wagon is on my list as well. Except for Drew. Nancy actually said something that I don't think she comes up with as scum.

[Tails]

Majiffy calling RR an a-hole was bad. Especially since Majiffy has historically used abrasive tactics. It should have been easy for him to see this was not the case with Dix. He was trying to scum paint the slot while WKing Drew.

I also didn't like your replace in. You immediately attack both your wagon and Chicks while claiming you haven't read. (Specifically the saying everyone on your wagon was either scum or stupid. If you haven't read, you wouldn't know any of the circumstances.). Then when pressed later, you said that you did read, but not that much, and that's how you knew the Chick wagon was bad. The over the top protection of Chick immediately stood out to me.

[Tails]

Did you talk about me at all yesterday?

I said I could vig you. Probably would have voted you if a good wagon had come along.

[Tails]

I'm also calling bullshit on that he needed Chick to flip first. Not that I think Pint is town but he at least called me scum using pre-flip associates. Why couldn't tails have done that?

I wasn't as sold on Clem-scum as Pint. I was just there to get a lynch before the weekend. So I saw the associative, but didn't feel it was important unless Clem flipped scum.

[Tails]

You could, but I don't think it likely based on the timing of when you defended the slot and entered the game.

[Tails]

For later:
RR
Varsoon
Hebi
DGB

[Tails]

That pretty much summed it up.

[Tails]

You think the hammer was orchestrated?

[Tails]

I would think Clem would have been a little bit faster than 10 min. if that was the case.

[Tails]

That's okay. Hebi's on my list, but I want Nero first.

[Tails]

Would you like to be part of this Nero wagon? It's very comfy.

[Tails]

DID YOU KNOW?

Majiffy claimed to have a solid scum read on Chickadee due to a secret tell, yet he never voted her.

[Tails]

Chickadee is probably flipping scum or 3P here but BuJ remains the ideal lynch today.

[Tails]

I call BS. There’s a multitude of reasons why a post-game explanation is bad
VOTE: Majiffy
If you’re making that type of statement you’d probably have already done analysis to support it. Since you haven’t that means it’s a crock of shit.

This seems like an opportunistic vote. Overly explained.

Do you disagree with what Gamma said here?

[Tails]

Gamma's response came after Majiffy said he'd explain in post game. RR was the only one pushing him on that point, and only very lightly. Given the timing, I don't see Gamma's jump as opportunistic at all. Gamma's hop actually contributed to the pressure the Majiffy slot was under until Nero replaced in. Until that point, there were only 3 votes on him, and Bujab was the most recent and for different reasons.

So what makes Gamma's vote opportunistic and not Varsoon's, who voted immediately after Gamma for the same reasons?

[Tails]

So what makes Gamma's vote opportunistic and not Varsoon's, who voted immediately after Gamma for the same reasons?

I don't care about varsoon, I was ISOing Gamma.

Context is important.

[Tails]

DID YOU KNOW?

Majiffy claimed to have a solid scum read on Chickadee due to

a secret tell

, yet he never voted her.

This makes me feel better about Majiffy though

Last time I saw something like this, that person was scum. But more to the point, if Majiffy had some sort of tell that gave him an accurate scumread of Chick, and he knew that, why didn't he vote the guaranteed scum instead of avoiding the wagon?

[Tails]

So looking at what Cerb is saying about trying to coach Toog into using his role wisely - I think it looks legit.

I think RR saying that was the objective of what he was doing and it was sincere so that's a consideration for me...

Now, I've not played much (if any? IDK) multiball on here before so like the point that !otherscum! team will likely been on Clemency wagon was like an adjustment in my thinking (I'm slow ok)

But that makes me reconsider the RR and Toog episode? I guess so because now we know Toog is town, that means !scum and !otherscum would have flocked to the wagon - I think this means that if RR was scum he'd have to be like "Guys wait and see who rushes this wagon to find the other team" - I think that would be tough to do without dropping your own team in it... so not really a scum lean on RR.

But

we have the serial killer potential aspect in this game too I think. The bit that you could probably argue is that RR was using Toog to serve his own purpose - obviously a SK can scum hunt like the rest of us and wants to remove all of us so helping a town is no skin off their nose - now the bit I think I have to consider is RR coached Toog into getting associatives going (this benefits all) but ALSO voted for Toog.

now this can be explained away as "yeah I wanted to coach him and demonstrate/accelerate the lesson" but it can also be explained as "I want to remove players by applying pressure/mind games"

It comes down to how devious you consider cerb to be I think - SK lean for me.

Too wordy. Not much said.

[Tails]

Don't let that piece of hot garbage mislynch me again.

Who is this in reference to?

[Tails]

To clarify before Tails jumps in twisting shit again

[Tails]

I would appreciate succinctly phrased justifications for Gamma and Nero, preferably from the progenitors of the wagons.

Spoiler: So good you can ignore it twice

Majiffy calling RR an a-hole was bad. Especially since Majiffy has historically used abrasive tactics. It should have been easy for him to see this was not the case with Dix. He was trying to scum paint the slot while WKing Drew.

I also didn't like your replace in. You immediately attack both your wagon and Chicks while claiming you haven't read. (Specifically the saying everyone on your wagon was either scum or stupid. If you haven't read, you wouldn't know any of the circumstances.). Then when pressed later, you said that you did read, but not that much, and that's how you knew the Chick wagon was bad. The over the top protection of Chick immediately stood out to me.

DID YOU KNOW?

Majiffy claimed to have a solid scum read on Chickadee due to a secret tell, yet he never voted her.

[Tails]

Spoiler: Pint's case

Special offer: if Clem=scum, Nero=kill it with fire; if Clem=anything else, Nero=null

nero cain is scumleanish

Mark my words: this is distancing

Scum tend to project themselves into other players in order to create false scumreads. Nero said in his huge post where he explained his suspects that he believed some players were chainsaw defending Creature, including me. I think Nero tried to do the exact same thing he was saying other players were doing with Creature, but with Chickadee instead. After Clem arrived and did nothing to get off the attention, Nero voted for him saying that he's probably scum, but changed his vote quickly to other slot. That whole thing seemed off.

This, essentially. And add Majiffy's "I dare you to vote me" attitude and you have the perfect fit. Also Chick's reaction to Creature going full berzerk mode was the same that Majiffy had, but that's not important, just thought I should say it.

[Tails]

[Tails]

@Drew: Wisdom isn't pushing Nero. And I'm not sure why this would be outside of the range of scum Nero.

[Tails]

I didn't really like that appeal to you.

[Tails]

RR isn't the only one responsible.

[Tails]

Fair. Out of that wagon, though, I'd be looking at the ones who backed RR and then immediately stabbed them in the back.

[Tails]

Did that read awkward af to anyone else?

Reminded me of his last post. A lot of words to say not much and read as hedgy.

[Tails]

@Drew: Nero doesn't need you to protect him. That he's acting otherwise is suspect.

[Tails]

@Cheeky: You mean the other team part?

[Tails]

Why!

P-edit: Rats! Missed it!

[Tails]

Eh. I've been assuming 2-3 teams and 2 SKs until proven wrong.

[Tails]

It's an Overkill game. I expect the mod to maximize death possibility. So more than 1 scum team. I also don't think he decreases the amount of SKs from last game. So minimum of 2.

[Tails]

And I expect this game to be bigger. Especially since one of the criticisms of the last game were the lack of nks. I think the mod is going to ensure we get the crazy kill nights this time. So that equals more than one team.

[Tails]

@profii: Are you no longer scumreading gamma?

[Tails]

I'm wondering if scum Cheeky would really act this thick.

[Tails]

I can't see how acting clueless about the likeliness of multiball or SKs would help you as scum.

[Tails]

I find the idea that all the wagons are massively coordinated to be

[Tails]

@Bujabs: That wasn't the first time Cheeky showed confusion over the likelihood of multiball.

[Tails]

I mean, if you want to talk about the awkwardness of phrasing in profii's post, fine. But saying there's another scum team is not a scum slip if the fact is almost guaranteed given the theme.

[Tails]

I'll laugh if one of the flips is orange.

[Tails]

Last time I saw something like this, that person was scum. But more to the point, if Majiffy had some sort of tell that gave him an accurate scumread of Chick, and he knew that, why didn't he vote the guaranteed scum instead of avoiding the wagon?

Why did he have to vote one scum read over the other?

It's the difference of what should have been essentially confirmed scum to not so confirmed scum. In that instance, you go for the stronger read. Majiffy didn't.

@Drew: Nero doesn't need you to protect him. That he's acting otherwise is suspect.

She just said I got mislynched w/o her. What makes you think I DON'T need one of the few people that seems to understand a town Nero? Especcially in a game with a large # of scum that are going to try to lynch me. I need her now more than ever.

Town Nero would have no problem engaging with a wagon on him. He doesn't need Nancy to be his knight in shining armor. Unless you're telling me you lost all your mojo and are now a weak kitten, I don't buy this line.

[Tails]

It's the difference of what should have been essentially confirmed scum to not so confirmed scum. In that instance, you go for the stronger read. Majiffy didn't.

"I have a tell!"=//=confirmed scum. Like as a recent example in COH A50 was trying to apply a tell to Wisdom. A tell is just a scum read. There's no way you believe that a tell is a confirmed guilty.

It still means that the scum read is incredibly strong. Like incredibly likely to be scum strong. If you're that confident in your tell, then you vote it over the scum read that's not as certain.

You can jump on my using hyperbole, but that doesn't discount the point.

[Tails]

Also, I'd normally think lyncher if going 3p. But then again, I normally think scum if a guilty is faked on me.

[Tails]

No thought whatsoever on Fishsticks?

[Tails]

At least one of those kills are scum. Personally think it's between Nero and Cheeky, but would like to know for sure.

Going into my weekend absence stretch. RR and Varsoon need to make arguments about why I should want to lynch the other person. Vote goes live on Monday.

[Tails]

*And by kills, I mean deaths.

[Tails]

I figure that will be dealt with by the time I get back. I don't need to be the one to push for the claim. In the meantime, I want to get you 2 taken care of.

[Tails]

So 2 town and 2 scum. Even better.

Max of 2 Dave.

P-edit: I had requested a non-speedy night as well.

[Tails]

Depends on the mod.

[Tails]

If I had to guess, Creature was town and Nero was scum. So just going to assume that. Still feel pretty good about my Mala townread, but I don't think it's as locked as Creature.

[Tails]

Almost doesn't have them on the dead list yet, so hopefully the flips are just delayed a day.

[Tails]

6. Forgetting Toog.

[Tails]

I'm not the one behind the janitored kills. I want to know Nero's alignment.

[Tails]

Almost doesn't have a dead category in the OP. He has a flipped category. I was hoping that was significant.

[Tails]

Going to be playing Smash for the rest of the night. Somebody make sure to hold Big Fish's feet to the fire and get a claim. I thought that went without saying, but I'm starting to doubt that after seeing the last couple of pages.

[Tails]

Also, Tails definitely knew about the flips not happening just know, so i’m Still not happy with the Tails slot.

You mean that thing that was clearly in the thread?