Starcraft Mafia: Legacy of the Void [Game Over]

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

Um. Actually, I haven't played or read any previous starcraft games. Is scum faction limited or can you have like protoss/Zerg/Terran all in the scumteam?

In Starcraft 2 Mafia (link: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=78296), Zerg was the town faction and scum was a combination of Terran and Protoss, but scum had Zerg fakeclaims. The game also had a heavy emphasis on ground units and air units, and the scum ground units had fakeclaims for Zerg ground units, and the scum air unit had a fakeclaim for a Zerg air unit.

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

Volxen MJL combo pack can join my town block.

I'm being drafted into a townblock before I've even posted? That's a first.

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

Volxen MJL combo pack can join my town block.

I'm being drafted into a townblock before I've even posted? That's a first.

- Volxen

Are you accepting?

I suppose I'll tentatively accept it for now.

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

Bubbles checking in!

Volxen, you've clearly been online and posting since the game started; yet none of your three posts contain a stance on any other slot. You also lack an RVS vote. Should that concern me?

Agree that ShadowlessCloud's entrance seems slightly scummy. However, 131 I see coming more often from town than scum; I haven't been online with my other heads yet. I'll discuss and move the vote if they concur. 183 also I think comes from town.

Also liking Alchemist21 for town

for now

.

-Bubbles

I think RCEnigma is likely town, as I have played several games with him and this seems like town!him so far. Alchemist seems towny so far as well.

Nancy seems towny so far, but after Nomination Mafia I doubt I will be able to get a strong read on you individually on day one, considering I initially incorrectly townread you early on in that game. So you’re null for me for now.

I think it’s suspect how Liger_Zero voted for Almost50 with no explanation initially (see 256) after you voted for and then unvoted Almost50 (see 250 and 254), especially after repeatedly saying “no one is scummy” (see 19, 141, 243, etc.) He did then follow-up and point out things that he found suspect about Almost50 (see 322), but they were mostly related to Almost50’s relaxed tone and the fact that he joked around a lot and “buddied” up to Flavor Leaf and shared some of his reads and sheeped people by voting for Shadow. I don’t think he really has a good case on Almost50, as I have played several games with town!Almost50 (Hope Plus One, Starcraft Mafia 2, and Unstable Mafia) and he had the same relaxed/joking posting style in those games, so at best it’s NAI for him.

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

VOTE: Liger_Zero

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

Nancy was in Nomination Mafia?

- Hydra

No, Auro/Bubbles was scum in Nomination Mafia (I was town in that game). Nancy/Buttercup wasn't in that game. Auro and I have a lot of history together because we hydra together on the Michael Scott account, but he's still hard for me to read accurately, especially early on.

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

Caught up now

Town: Alchemist, Liger, RCEnigma, Vedith, Powerpuffs

Scum: Chennisden, Shadowless, Shiro

- Hydra

I see you have Liger_Zero as a townread. Do you think his push on Almost50 is genuine? I could perhaps understand him thinking that Almost50 is the scummiest player in this game if he had no prior experience with Almost50, as Almost50 does have an unconventional playstyle that may inadvertently make him come off as scummy to people unfamiliar with him. But Liger_Zero mentioned in 452 that he replaced into Almost50's town slot in a previous game recently, so he should be aware that Almost50 does the things he has done in this game as town. That's a large part of why I find his push on Almost50 suspect.

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

Are you ignoring the part where I said "replaced in, didn't read much of his posts except the circumstances around his replace out"

So you replaced in and didn't read through the entire game before you started to post? I see. Is that one game the only previous experience you have with Almost50? Even if it is, have you reconsidered your read on Almost50 based on the things that I have said?

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

Yes, I read it as genuine. Or more accurately, it didn't come across as being made in bad faith, even though I don't scumread A50.

Replacing into your own slot is different than trying to get a read on a different slot. You're less likely to seriously analyze your own slot, since you already know your own alignment.

Liger also said he didn't read A50's posts in this other game, which I believe, since that game was pretty long and Liger replaced in fairly late in the game IIRC.

These are all fair points. He has less firsthand experience with Almost50 than I initially realized.

Are you just looking at individual ISOs?

243 comes before A50 made any posts in the game, and 256 comes after A50 made his entrance. Given the context, it's fine to go from "no one is scummy" in one post to thinking A50 is scummy in the next.

- Hydra

No, I’m not just looking at ISO’s. I meant that I found it suspect that he didn’t find anything scummy until Almost50’s entrance and voted for Almost50 right after Auro/Bubbles voted and unvoted for Almost50, especially since he didn’t give any explanation for his vote at the time that he placed it. However, he has since reevaluated his read on Almost50, and I think he was mostly scumreading him over his playstyle.

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

UNVOTE:

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

Yes, you should claim!

Fenix the bulletproof.

My "2" flavors are before and after my body was killed lol

I don't think Liger is scum btw.

im agreeing with you i think

we should lynch through the bullet proof claim that was total bs

RCE, I think sometimes we out-game ourselves when simply voting scum is a solid, time-tested strategy

Consider that recent mini-normal run by NSG, viewtopic.php?f=23&t=78917

Scum was at L-1, claimed mod would confirm him as IC the next day. Simplest example of a role claim being self-resolving

But the mechanics of the game meant that town would have been better off just lynching the guy they thought was scum

Let's try something new and just lynch scum

Why were you so quick to want to lynch him through his claim on day one, given that you were in Starcraft 2? Remember that in that game there were two town-aligned one-shot BP's -- Michael Scott (Auro and I) and Tibor & Lumia (Gamma Emerald and Brassherald)/Firebinger both had that role (see: Starcraft 2 Mod Thread). That game was 11 town vs 3 scum, and there are at least 11 townies in this game, so it's very likely that there is at least one town-aligned BP role in this game.

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

3.

MJL's absence

: MJL is usually pretty involved as town; she's not made a single post this game. Unless she siteflaked (and I believe that's not the case), this should be scum indicative for MJL.

To the Combo Pack: If you're town, and not finding time to discuss reads with each other, it would help me read you if you posted your thoughts as individuals rather than lurk out waiting for an opportunity. I will not move our vote till my concerns are cleared / I have sufficient reason to townread you; and MJL starts being active.

I totally understand your concern, except this is more Volxen's game and I'm just tagging along. I planned to share my updated reads with Volxen, but I'll also post them here so you can get my thoughts directly from me.

I'm not sure where you're getting your meta on me from, but of all completed games I've participated in, only one was scum.

-MJL

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

Okay, I got the Mod Prod and I didn’t realize that neither of us had been on the account since the 17th.

I understood in signups that this game was going to be more complex than I was comfortable with, but Volxen offered to hydra with me so I could learn. I don’t want us to get replaced, so I’m going to attempt to pull my weight until he's back.

I said that I was going to post my reads, but I can’t get a lock on the majority of you. On a few of you, I have very strong opinions. On others, i'm clueless. I don't get the inside references everyone is making so I'm trying to pick out the posts that I think are game relevant vs the ones where people are just fluffing around. Honestly, a good chunk of this game is flying over my head.

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

Right. You're supposed to sign your posts on a hydra.

-MJL

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

I totally understand your concern, except this is more Volxen's game and I'm just tagging along. I planned to share my updated reads with Volxen, but I'll also post them here so you can get my thoughts directly from me.

Nope yourself.
Quoted implies she'll also post said thoughts here so we get them directly from her.
I specifically told her she should post independent of affirming with Volxen.

-Bubbles

Thank you for telling me that I should do that.

-MJL

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

Thank you for telling me that I should do that.

No offense; I assumed you were hesitant in posting reads without running them through Volxen first, and I think it's better if you just post them.

-Bubbles

I appreciate the playing tips. I'll take it under advisement.

-MJL

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

Can someone on the Shiro wagon please give me a very simple overview of why they've put their vote there? I checked the ISO and I can see a case for a scummy entrance and I can see lurking and inactivity, but if I scumread them for that, that'd be like the pot calling the kettle black.

-MJL

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

VOTE: Volxen

I didn't want to do this, but this is better than Shiro rn

Why?

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

VOTE: Volxen

I didn't want to do this, but this is better than Shiro rn

Why?

I thought you weren’t feeling Shiro wagon? Which one would you like better?

~BC

I don't think I said that. I think I asked people why they were voting for Shiro and I said that I could see a case but that the case would be hypocritical of me to make. Between Chennisden, Shiro, and my slot, I think we're posting kind of on par with one another. I asked about Shiro because maybe someone knows them well and can justify why this behavior would be scummy.

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

I'm not sharing my strong opinions because I thought it would be appropriate for my other half to have the chance to review them first. That just seems like common courtesy to me. It's his game, not mine.

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

I keep forgetting the signing the post thing.

-MJL

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

I thought maybe if I started posting and interacting I'd connect more to the game and things would start clicking for me. Maybe that wasn't such a good idea after all. I'm really sorry!

-MJL

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

Votecount 1.6

Volxen MJL Combo Pack(4)

~ Powerpuff Girls(97), RCEnigma(67), u r a person 2(32), Iconeum(38)

Shiro(2)

~ Liger_Zero(104), Hydra TBD(24)

Liger_Zero(2)

~ Shiro(6), Flavor Leaf(95)

u r a person 2(1)

~ Alchemist21(36)


Not Voting (7): Vedith(108), Yahmose(1), Volxen MJL Combo Pack(13), Almost50(47), Shadowlesscloud(38), chennisden(16), Cerberus v666(8)

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2019-04-23 14:38:01)

MOD REMINDERS

Pending replacement for Yahmose!

Shadowlesscloud has under 24 hours to pick up their last prod.

FLAVOR

VOTE: Shiro

I feel like scum is controlling the lynch right now and I hate it.

You made posts 778 and 779 within a few minutes of each other, and at the time the most recent vote count was 1.6 from post 750. You said here that, "I feel like scum is controlling the lynch right now and I hate it", and this came right after you voted for Shiro. Considering I was the leading wagon at this time, you were clearly referring to my own wagon when you said that you thought scum was controlling the lynch. Then you went on to make these posts:

VOTE: Volxen

I didn't want to do this, but this is better than Shiro rn

Your tone here is off, and there is a disconnect between your action (voting for me) and your words ("I didn't want to do this"). If you are convinced that I am scum, then there should no reason for you to "not want to do this". You are voting for me and simultaneously acting like you are regretting it. I don't get the sense that you really believe that I am scum. And you didn't give any explanation as to why you thought my wagon was better than Shiro's wagon.

I feel like scum is controlling the lynch right now and I hate it.

Which slots in specific did you think were trying to control the lynch?
Why did you feel this? And considering you're voting for that slot now, what changed?

-Bubbles

Powerpuff and RCE feel like they're controlling the direction of this game.

So you said that you thought scum was controlling the lynch, Auro/Bubbles asked you which slots specifically are controlling the lynch, and you replied by stating that PPG and RCE are controlling the game. And yet, despite saying this, you placed your vote on me after PPG and RCE both voted for me. Your vote for me here doesn't make sense if you were really concerned about PPG and RCE controlling the lynch as you said you were.

I feel this because the wagons are bad

And I'm voting this slot because this is better than Shiro

Volxen independently is an ok lynch rn.

In post 912 you seem to be suggesting that both my wagon and Shiro's wagon are bad, and that my wagon was the lesser of two evils. Then right after that in post 913 you go on to say that I am "independently an OK lynch right now", after previously saying that both wagons were bad, and these two posts were made back-to-back within less than a minute of each other. And you still never gave any reasoning of your own as to why you thought I was an "OK lynch".

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

VOTE: chennisden

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

Regarding MJL, I was the one who approached her about hydra'ing together in this game. We had recently completed a newbie game together, and I saw that she had /in'd and then quickly /out'd of this Starcraft game in the signup thread because she thought the game was going to be complicated. I enjoyed playing with her in that newbie game, so I offered to hydra with her in this game as it seemed like she wanted to play this game but would have had a hard time playing solo. That's why I will be doing the majority of the posting on our account, as MJL is really taking this as a learning opportunity to get more familiar with non-newbie games.

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

Alright, maybe Volxen/MJL is town?

Chen is contradicting themselves which is really strange.

So, UNVOTE:

VOTE: Chennisden

I can relate to MJL having trouble getting into the game, so eh NAI. That happens to me to in some games. where I’m lost and have no clue what I’m doing but I like Volxen’s case.

It’s similar to the convo Bubbes and I were having about them.

~Buttercup

It's not really a contradiction?

I'm not assuming that this is what went through Chenn's head, but the narrative Volxen is promoting is that

-Chenn was hesitant to vote volxen because he felt scum were pushing it
-Chenn looked at a viable alternative
-Chenn decided they town read that alternative
-So they went to the volxen vote in spite of their misgivings

Where's the issue?

You are vastly oversimplifying the points that I brought up in post 1072. Chenn contradicted himself by, for example, saying that he thought both wagons were bad in one post and then that I was an "OK lynch" less than one minute later in his next post (implying that he doesn't think my wagon is bad). And if he really thought that both wagons were bad, he should have voted for someone other than Shiro or I.

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

that fits with what I said. ???

I think you're trying to make something where there is nothing

Like if he doesn't like the wagons, but is scum reading you independent of the people on your wagon...

If he is scumreading me then there would be no reason to "not like my wagon" nor to express "regret" at the time that he voted for me. That's the whole point. Even if he has suspicions of PPG and/or RCE being scum, if he believes that all of us are scum then my wagon would be a scum-driven wagon on scum, and it shouldn't matter to him (although that’s a very unlikely scenario). When he says that he doesn't like my wagon he's implying that he isn't scumreading me, and then when he turns around and says that I'm independently an OK lynch less than one minute later he's implying that he is scumreading me.

And even though it’s technically possible from town!Chenn’s POV that PPG and I are scum together, if he is town he should recognize that is extremely improbable given how aggressively they have pushed me on day one, to the point where I have become a leading wagon. If he believes that PPG is scum that would have been all the more reason to

NOT

vote for me. If he believes that I am scum, then he shouldn’t have called my wagon bad. Claiming both things at the same time is a contradiction. That’s why I believe that his “progression” on my slot is fake.

And beyond all of that, he gave a very minimal explanation for not liking the Shiro wagon in post 916 (although in post 921 he said that he found nothing town-indicative about Shiro) and next to no explanation for his treatment of my slot. If you are townreading Chenn, please explain why.

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

Are you going to share your "strong opinions" now, or not?

-Bubbles

I think that your slot is most likely town. If you were scum and your goal was to push my mislynch through on day one (which, after Nomination Mafia, is something that I think you might do as scum), I think this would have been a coordinated strategy between all of your heads and I don’t think that your slot would be going back-and-forth on me and switching your votes around as you have been, as that just reduces the chances of you being able to push my mislynch through. For example, Nancy started off by initially townreading me in post 522 before you stated your suspicions of me and voted for me in post 687. I also think that scum!you would have taken more advantage of my absence to aggressively double down on your push on me, not point out my absence and then unvote me over it as you did in post 1013. And beyond that your slot has moved their vote around several times and all three of you genuinely seem to be trying to sort me.

There’s also the fact that you are extremely busy this month, and it was my understanding before this game started that you were hydra’ing with Nancy because you literally weren’t going to be able to post at all in this game. Obviously that hasn’t turned out to be the case, but given how busy you are this month, I think that town!you would be more motivated to put effort into casing me and pushing me based on your suspicions, as opposed to scum!you putting in this kind of effort to get me mislynched on day one. Especially since scum!you would know that I would be flipping town, and you would have to deal with the fallout of my day one mislynch on day two and explain why you weren’t able to read your usual hydra partner correctly after claiming to be able to do so. Whereas town!you wouldn’t be 100% certain of my alignment until I flip or otherwise become confirmed town.

I did incorrectly townread you early on in Nomination Mafia, but I feel that I have a lot more to go on here with respect to my read of your slot. I believe that your push on me was genuine in that you were pushing me because you had real suspicions of my slot, because you’ve seen town!me at my best and I haven’t been at my best in this game yet.

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

Giving it further thought, Volxen+MJL deserve a lynch but considering they've flaked and people don't care. Wagoning them at this point is futile.

VOTE: Shiro

-Bubbles

Rude bubbles



Well you guys can lynch me, I don't care all that much. Remember though folks.

Liger is scum and i am starting to think he is trying to buy his buddy an extra day(or for a replacement if they flaked *shrug*)

I might put up effort before I die or I might not, who knows, time will tell. Defenitly not today though. Tune in for tomorrow.

Liiiike honestly now that I think about it Liger is reeeeally into defending Volxen and hasn't really said why I ma scum, though to be Frank there isn't much he cam say about me.

Makes me even more keen to think they are together. Thing is flipping me don't really say anything about anyone (my previous point about being easy target) it will just end the day abd even lifer can dismish it as lurker with suspicious short posts.

What I mean to say with all that is. Regardless of what is said after my death(assumi g I even die) do not be wisdom in our previous game, lynch the obvious :p

Ok that's it for today 1% effort was put. Pending 99%

I know that you are scumreading Liger_Zero, but you seem to have a scumread on me contingent on Liger being scum. Aside from a few posts where he lightly defended me (posts 1009, 1010, 1014, and 1016), Liger hasn't really defended me all that much. If you are town and you are convinced that Liger is scum, you should be considering the possibility that scum!Liger might be lightly defending me and staying off of my wagon so he comes out looking better on day two if I end up being mislynched today. Especially since, outside of lightly defending me in a few posts, he hasn't really done anything to try and actively dismantle my wagon. Do you have any thoughts on my slot independent of your Liger scumread?

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

Chennisden is posting with a lot of confidence. Too much confidence.

I only reviewed a few of his games for a sampling of his history and newbie 1917 is a scum game where he's giving too much information. viewtopic.php?f=50&t=78734. I actually feel like this game is like 1917, but with some tweaks to the playing style which reflect that effort is being made to not repeat the weaker points of that game.

Newbie 1918 viewtopic.php?f=50&t=78902 is a town game, and he's pulled it back quite a bit. The game we’re in right now feels more aggressive than that one, and I find the same sense of coordinated staging that I saw in 1917.

In mini 2057 viewtopic.php?f=2&t=78680, Chenn subs into a mason roll, and I find his posts aggressive and sure footed. Scum has good reason to be more paranoid than masons, so the confidence in that game makes sense for the role. I don’t see that confidence here, so the coordination I think I’m seeing isn’t coming from a mason team. I believe it’s coming from a scum team. In Mini Normal 2060, I find him not feeling so confident. He was VT in that game. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=78945

I also didn't like Chenn's entrance into this game. It felt scummy that he’s try to randomly town block us and it’s been followed by a disjoined game that feels like he’s always patching holes or exploring equally acceptable avenues to pull off a mislynch. I see no conviction on Chenn’s part of who he think’s scum is. I think he’s more focused on getting an easy wagon.

I feel like scum is controlling the lynch right now and I hate it.

Okay, so do something about it?

VOTE: Volxen

I didn't want to do this, but this is better than Shiro rn

Yup yup. Scum is controlling this game alright.

Powerpuff and RCE feel like they're controlling the direction of this game.

Well that’s exactly what I said, but Volxen insists that PPG isn’t scum. So it just feels more to me now that Chenn is on the scum team and he’s taking cues from the scum leader.

I feel this because the wagons are bad

And I'm voting this slot because this is better than Shiro

If the Volxen wagon sucks so bad, then why are you on it?

Volxen independently is an ok lynch rn.

I thought it sucked?

I've lost a lot of my reservations about voting Volxen+MJL now.

What reservations were those??

alchemist

Maybe Cerb would be ideal

He's scumreading me and Volxen, Shiro to an extent, alchemist and maybe Cerb. That looks strongly to me like it’s just a scum member trying to find wagons that stick.

Maybe PPG and RCE are controlling the narrative, but Volxen thinks PPG is town, and we haven't discussed RCE. Chenn looks to me here like he's possibly laying the ground works for future wagons, something I think someone would naturally do as scum.


Okay, you wanted my thoughts, and there they are.

--MJL

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

Yes, and Volxen said he doesn't mind if I post things that we're not in unison on. So here goes:

Popsofctown

: Love this poster! I think this is a thoughtful person who thinks the game out carefully and whose reads should probably be paid close attention to. Town.

Powerpuff Girls:

I’ve never worked with hydras before, and I recognize that they’re probably town based on everyone’s reception of them so far, but they’re not always adding useful content, and they’re dominating the conversation with charisma. I read

scum

town, but begrudgingly so. Volxen reads them solidly town.

u r a person 2

– I’ve never seen their scum game, but this game looks like past town games I’ve seen. Rapid succession posting, very confident, and frankly quite accurate. (well most of the time anyway)

Alchemist2:

Saw the chennisden vote flip-flop on his own. I like that!

Moongrass:

Feels very town. Also seems like a thoughtful poster who is lead by their intellect and not their gut reads alone. This is another poster to pay close attention to and I find myself agreeing with their view a lot.

Iconeum:

Null. This is not a player I have strong opinions about.

Liger_Zero:

Town? I was solidly scum at first, but my opinion shifted over time.

Hydra TBD

(2-headed Stealth Hydra) - This is not a player I have strong opinions about.

Almost50:

Town maybe? Strong opinions! I like this person. Like Moongrass and Pops, this is someone to pay attention to.

Wisdom

– Not someone I have strong opinions about. Maybe a little tunnely. I maybe saw a bit of scummy in there, but the tunneling makes me think town. All together = null.

Shiro

– Why won’t PPG touch this wagon with a ten-foot pole? Why did PPG put those words in my mouth about this player when I asked for waggoneers to explain their vote? They said that I said that I wasn’t vibing on this wagon but I was just asking a question. PPG's dogged defense of Shiro makes me feel nervous, but I'm tabling that for later.

Flavor Leaf

–I’ve never seen FL’s scum game and I’ve only seen one town game. He’s playing like that town game pretty on point.

Chennisden

– Vote pattern doesn’t match narrative. Full explanation in my previous post.

RCEnigma

– I guess town? Maybe just null.

Cerberus v666

- I like that they’re exploring multiple possibilities so they don’t accidentally get stuck on the wrong people. I read town on Cereb.

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

Forgot the signature again!

-- MJL

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

do you only scumread chennis then?

suppose he flipped scum. Who do you think are possible buddies?

For this vote, yes. I think I need more pieces to slide into place for me to get a better read on few other people, but Chennis is someone Volxen and I both solidly agree on.

If he flips scum, I see myself looking more closely at urap and maybe RCE in that order. This comment raised an alarm for me.

Also, I've lost any reservation of URAP town.

This is as town as you get.

-- MJL

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

In a previous newbie game, someone gave me the advice of not focusing so much on partnerships as I do a particular individual when I find someone to scum read. I had been making the mistake of trying to find scum solely through trying to pick out buddies. The question was asked to me that if Chenn does flip red, who do I see as his possible buddies? In truth, I don't have solid partners for Chenn, though I did see some evidence of partnering and combined with the flip flop voting against his own stated agenda I saw that as a good reason for us to place our vote on Chenn. I also saw that comment with urap as maybe distancing and I know that's something I should be on the lookout for.

-- MJL

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

@Mod can we get a votecount if one of you is online?

-MJL

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

@Mod, what happens in the case of a tie?

-MJL

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

@Mod, what happens in the case of a tie?

-MJL

There is no plurality. So if someone doesn't reach 9 votes there will be no lynch.

I thought no lynches are worse for town.

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

@Mod, what happens in the case of a tie?

-MJL

If a player reaches a hammer, then that player is hammered and the dayphase ends. Votes after a hammer occurs do not count, thus no second hammer can occur.

Additionally, there is not a plurality lynch mechanic. If time runs out and no one is lynched, the dayphase defaults to No Lynch, regardless of whether players are tied at end of day or not.

Well shit.

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

We need one more to hammer, right?

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

Okay, so I guess I have to do Volxen's laundry for the next week. The Power Puff Girls were in fact not scum.

--MJL

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

I have no idea what you guys are talking about and Volxen said he wouldn't be online until like 8 or more hours from now. Why if Alchemist said he got a guilty on Wisdom is everyone not flocking to a Wisdom vote? I mean I can see how Alchemist might be lying, but shouldn't the correct play be to pressure both of them with lots of votes?

Someone said something about framing and then a lot of things about possible roles that could be in play which read like gibberish to me. I’ll research some roles with Volxen tonight so at least I can understand what’s going on. For now I’d like to focus on the framing. I can see a case for framing because PPG was hard reading Shiro as town, and maybe someone saw that as an opportunity to either frame Shiro or for Shiro to make themselves look more innocent.

For now, I don't get the hesitation.
VOTE: Wisdom

--MJL

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

I am disappointed in a lot of you btw.

I'm completely lost. Why are you disappointed?

--MJL

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

OK, having skimmed D2 again I think I will sheep FL on Shiro being Town here. I don't think Liger or URAP should end game in any case. If either is town it's really on them the way they handled the guilty in Wisdom.

To be noted: Volxen, Cerb & Shiro haven't posted today.

Iconeum hasn't posted today or D2.

We need to wait for them all to register before we move on.

For whatever it's worth, I'm here. I just haven't had anything to add. The game is a bit over my head.

--MJL

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

That's so handy, Krazy. It's almost as if you can read my hydra PT and see my cries of help to Volxen or something like that.

I guess I'll start with looking more deeply into Liger.

--MJL

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

Fresh reads:

Popsofctown:

Still reading town here.

u r a person 2:

I maintain that past games have demonstrated that URAP is good with reads and I note that he was spot on with Wisdom and I favor his Liger view as well. But he pushed me and Volxen and Alchemist and I know he’s wrong there. I guess when he agrees with me, I feel justified in my view, but when he disagrees with me, I should take it with a grain of salt until I can find evidence to support his claim.

Alchemist2:

In D1, Alchemist implied that he was some kind of investigator role, and by D2 he magically got a scum-read off Wisdom who in fact flipped scum. From my POV, Alchemist is the towniest of towns that have ever towned. And if Alchemist thinks Liger is scum, that’s going to weigh heavily with me unless Cerberus’s post #1897 has merit.

Moongrass:

I appreciate that Moongrass is still skeptical about my slot, but I’m still strongly TRing him. He’s actively game solving, I don’t see him tunneling or being stubborn about his vote. This guy is sheepable.

Iconeum:

Null. Still no strong reads. According to my count, this player hasn’t posted since D1.

Liger_Zero:

I don’t think there’s ever a good reason to fake claim when you’re town. It’s going to immediately gain unwanted attention. Wisdom fake claimed and we nailed a red.

Hydra TBD (2-headed Stealth Hydra):

D3 and still no strong opinions.

Almost50:

This player has claimed mason and no one seems to be questioning it, so as far as I’m concerned, this is a town slot.

Shiro:

PPG was very protective of Shiro in D1 and having now learned that there could be no coordination between the two of these slots, I would need to carefully review D1 to find PPG’s stated justification for town reading Shiro so strongly. I’m focusing on Liger today, but I’ll be revisiting this later.

RCEnigma:

Null. RCE’s reads feel out of sync with the pack I thought I saw him running with so I need to spend some time thinking about whether that’s a town or a scum move, but I think scum!RCE would be more savvy and blend in with town.

Cerberus v666:

Still town. He was an early voter on the Wisdom wagon and I’m not getting scummy vibes. I like his game solving in post #1897 because he raised some points I hadn’t considered.

--MJL

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

Oh shit!!!
Did somebody say L-1?
VOTE: Wisdom
URAP-Liger have at least one scum in them.

Agreed.

L-1, Liger would you please go ahead and claim?

VOTE: Liger_Zero

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

^^^ MJL post.

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

In short, RCE isn't group scum. Assuming an Arsonist exists (just a possibility) he could have been that (and I know he's good at playing solo) but neither I not FL were doused so no. RCE knew we were Masons for real from the get go (he knows us both well enough) and was trying to keep us from being too obv!town so as not to be NK'd. I saw what he was doing clearly, while FL didn't get that play (maybe it's because I sometimes use the same tactic of keeping my strong TRs less confirmed to protect them from the NK)

In short, RCE is town here (sorry if it gets you NK'd, mate)

How did he know this? Was something said in game that he would be able to reasonably arrive at this conclusion?

--MJL

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

Liger would you please go ahead and claim?

Are you serious?

You're right. I was told to always ask for a claim when I put someone at L-1, but those instructions don't make sense here.

--MJL

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

Cerberus v666: Still town. He was an early voter on the Wisdom wagon

This is part of my scum read of Cerb. Alchemist claimed a guilty which it took people (assuming town) slightly more time to consider. Wouldn't a wolf already know that their team member was caught and join the wagon quickly rather than later?

Okay, I can see that.

--MJL.

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

VOTE: Ico

If you explained your vote here, I've missed it. Why did choose Iconium when they haven't posted since D1?

--MJL

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

You become a direct CC to Alchemist at that point who is claiming a guilty. If wisdom flips town there then your read doesn't matter mechanically. If you believe Alchemist is fake claiming there, meh as town he gets himself killed on a mislynch. He's a better player than that.

So you knowing that you are not a cop, continued to press that alchemist's ACTUAL guilty could possibly be wrong because you had a hunch wisdom was town.

If you're town here I don't mind testing out gambits, it's how you get better, but figure out how to bail when you are impeding on towns wincon.

Right now I'm reconsidering everything and building new theories based on what has been revealed, and Liger could be scum if

scum were informed there was no Cop

. That explains why he claimed unprompted on D1, why he specified his target beforehand. Why he wasn't shot on N1 (or N2). I mean, everything!

Umm I am pretty sure I could be scum regardless of that being informed or not....

@Liger (and also those who asked why I thought he was conf!town earlier): I am treating Liger as a good player having a bad game (regardless of alignment) as opposed to someone who really sucks at Mafia. This is why I am trying to build narratives that make more sense for him having brain farted this one time rather than being totally incompetent.

For example, a townie faking Cop clear = would be exposed if dead. It is bad if the target (Wisdom) flips scum or if a real Cop either CC's or gets flipped, but will still prove it was a fake clear. It could be withdrawn later on if it feels like things aren't going the way they were planned.

Now SCUM faking a clear on their partner directly gets them lynched right after their p. It doesn't protect their p if they (Liger) flip first. It makes no sense for scum to claim Cop not knowing if there is a real Cop in the game or not.

So, while the claim was bad it is much more worse play to come from scum still. I see no benefit to it, and -knowing Wisdom was scum regardless of who else is in there- I don't see him approving this kind of silly suicidal gambit.

Faking an innocent result on Wisdom is a risky play for Liger_Zero regardless of his alignment. The question is, does town!Liger or scum!Liger stand to gain more from the gambit? I would argue the answer is clearly that scum!Liger gains far more from the gambit (if it is successful) than town!Liger does. Scum!Liger would potentially be able to indefinitely falsely town clear Wisdom, or at least delay his lynch with the fake innocent result. If Alchemist hadn’t investigated Wisdom on night one, then Wisdom most likely would not have been lynched on day two given Liger’s fake innocent result. The only benefits to town!Liger are really 1) he might have been able to bait the nightkill and 2) he could have stopped someone he was townreading from being mislynched.

I don’t think this kind of gambit is at all likely to come from town!Liger. He mentioned wanting to bait the nightkill (1716), but by fakeclaiming investigative on day one and saying that he would investigate Wisdom, he was discouraging the real investigative(s) from investigating Wisdom (especially if said investigative(s) were townreading Liger). And I find it hard to believe that town!Liger would be townreading Wisdom so strongly over his day one play that he would consider it appropriate to come out on day two and fake an innocent result on him. If town!Liger believed that strongly that Wisdom was town, why not simply trust that the real investigative(s) would investigate him and resolve the issue? It should have been clear to town!Liger based on the events of day one that Wisdom would be the priority investigation target given the BP claim. Again, here he was just discouraging the real investigative(s) from investigating Wisdom because they assume Liger already has that covered. Fortunately, Alchemist still investigated Wisdom anyways.

This clearly wasn’t just about baiting the nightkill either (as Liger claimed in post 1716), because on day one Liger lied about being an investigative who planned to investigate Wisdom, and then on day two he

extends

the lie by claiming to have gotten an innocent result on Wisdom. If he was simply baiting the nightkill, then he would have revealed that he isn’t really an investigative role at the beginning of day two; not on day three after Wisdom has already been lynched. And he certainly wouldn’t have lied about getting an innocent result on Wisdom if this was all just about baiting the nightkill. Not only that, but even

after

Alchemist came out with his guilty result on Wisdom (1573), Liger

still

showed resistance to lynching Wisdom and maintained his lie about getting an innocent result on him:

I really don't think this role thing is gonna help us here. I want some substance not this other business. I want to leave this Wis/Alch/Me on side for a day or two. I think it will sort itself out.

Alchemist, who else are you scumreading?

What is town!Liger’s motivation in maintaining the lie at this point? Alchemist had just hard-claimed one-shot gunsmith and a guilty result on Wisdom. Town!Liger knows that his innocent result was fake. Even if he had suspicions of Alchemist being scum, he

knows

that his own claim is fake, and he doesn’t know that Alchemist’s claim is fake. And yet he still maintained his fake innocent result on Wisdom and acted as if he was confused as to how he and Alchemist could have possibly gotten different investigative results on the same person, and he tried to shift attention away from Wisdom by saying things like “I want to leave this Wis/Alch/Me on side for a day or two”. He only voted for Wisdom (1639) after it was essentially a foregone conclusion that he would be lynched due to Alchemist’s guilty result.

If Liger came out at the beginning of day two and just admitted that he isn’t an investigative role and that he was hoping to get nightkilled, that would be one thing. But where he loses all credibility is when he goes on to not only fake an innocent result, but also challenge Alchemist on his guilty result.

The most likely explanation for all of this is that Liger_Zero and Wisdom are scum together, Liger gambitted by publicly declaring that he would investigate Wisdom and then faked an innocent result on him to try and prevent/delay his lynch, and the gambit backfired because Alchemist investigated Wisdom.

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

I would swap out Cerberus with Hydra but I think scum have someone who is playing this game like 5d chess and that would be Cerberus.

Why Cerberus specifically? You mentioned in 1829 that you believe the FL nightkill is most likely to come from scum!Cerberus, but you never elaborated on why that is.

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

All of those who are questioning why I haven't played since D1 is BECAUSE YOU FUCKING QUICKLYNCHED ON D2.
Even with a guilty, it's not very good play.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I questioned why RCE was voting for you when I thought you should be a null-read.

--MJL

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

VOTE: VolxenVOTE:
Shame on me for not keeping better notes, but I didn't realize Iconeum was alien'd. It's still a strong read for me, but not strong enough I'm happy with a 50% or 33% penalty, depending on how big the scumteam is (4 in a large?)

Your stance doesn't even make sense here if you are town. In 1959 you clearly outlined a strong scumread of Icon. And now you are moving your vote off of him for purely mechanical reasons (after, ironically, calling my scumread of Liger "mechanical" in 1959)? The setup for this game indicates that there are at least three scum, and Wisdom is the only scum flip so far. So if Moongrass is town and Icon is scum, the fact that Icon was jailed and a nightkill still went through could be explained by 1) that another scum put the kill through and/or 2) that Moongrass was roleblocked. So why do you move your vote off of your supposed strongest scumread based on this alone, especially considering that Moongrass himself is currently voting for Icon?

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

VOTE: VolxenVOTE:
Shame on me for not keeping better notes, but I didn't realize Iconeum was alien'd. It's still a strong read for me, but not strong enough I'm happy with a 50% or 33% penalty, depending on how big the scumteam is (4 in a large?)

Your stance doesn't even make sense here if you are town. In 1959 you clearly outlined a strong scumread of Icon. And now you are moving your vote off of him for purely mechanical reasons (after, ironically, calling my scumread of Liger "mechanical" in 1959)? The setup for this game indicates that there are at least three scum, and Wisdom is the only scum flip so far. So if Moongrass is town and Icon is scum, the fact that Icon was jailed and a nightkill still went through could be explained by 1) that another scum put the kill through and/or 2) that Moongrass was roleblocked. So why do you move your vote off of your supposed strongest scumread based on this alone, especially considering that Moongrass himself is currently voting for Icon?

- Volxen

And considering these EOD day 1 and day 2 posts from Moongrass:

I don't mind soft claiming to save Chen. I am the even night variant of his role hence I believe them to be town.

Well...that was stupid...

VOTE: Iconeum

Ico's EOD is scummy. To put it mildly..

It's that panic post scum feel obliged to contribute about how disintered they were in the town wagon after someone hammers.

I should probably be lynching in wisdom/cerb for blatantly lying about the odd/even thing but Ico has pretty much scum claimed so yolo.

It's very unlikely that scum!Icon would have been the one to make the nightkill on night two, given how strongly Moongrass suspected him of being scum.

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

Let's talk motivation here

Liger comes out with a (fake) inno in Wisdom. Why?
Only 2 options:

-they are buddies
-town fakes an inno on scum

Why would a scum fake an inno on his buddy if there's so little pressure on Wisdom in the first place? If anything, I believe Wisdom was actually more townread then scum. Further, why would a scum hint towards being an investigative? That leaves them wide open to the later game 'how come you still alive' debate.

A town fake inno, not endorsing this play but whatever, makes more sense even for just drawing in a NK or any other possible misdirection shenanigans. Liger got caught with his pants down by the guilty from Alchemist, and why Liger kept up that act is beyond me. And I still feel it is more likely to come from town then scum.

Except there was a lot of pressure on Wisdom. Yes, he got a free pass on day one and some people were townreading him, but he was aware the BP issue was not ever going to go away. He was by far the number one priority investigative target for night one, so him getting some townreads on day one was irrelevant. As I explained in post 1931, the reason why scum!Liger would announce ahead of time that he will be investigating Wisdom is to discourage the actual investigative(s) from investigating him. And the reason why scum!Liger would fake an innocent result would be to falsely clear his buddy. And while scum!Liger would have to eventually deal with the “Why are you still alive?” questions, that could be explained away via scum not wanting to kill Liger over concerns that he would be protected.

Wanting to bait the nightkill would explain town!Liger's first lie (lying about being an investigative role), but it doesn't explain his second lie (lying about getting an innocent result on Wisdom and maintaining this lie even after Alchemist hardclaimed a guilty result on Wisdom). You said here that you think Liger's actions are more likely to come from town!him than scum!him, but you've primarily focused on the risks to scum!Liger with respect to him fakeclaiming an innocent result on his buddy (e.g., Wisdom still gets investigated anyways, people question Liger on why he is still alive, etc.). Is this primarily why you are townreading Liger -- because you don't believe that scum!Liger would be willing to accept the risks that come with faking an innocent result on his buddy? Or are you townreading him based on his overall gameplay? Because you seem to be all over the place regarding Liger. For example, in posts 1950 and 1951 you called Liger a liar, and in posts 2019 and 2025 you talked about the possibility of Liger being scum with RCE (with next to no explanation as to why you think this would be a likely scenario, or why you find RCE scummy independent of your read on Liger). Yet in posts 2031 and 2033 you said that Liger isn’t scum with Wisdom – this directly contradicts your previous stance that Liger could be scum with RCE, because if Liger isn’t scum with Wisdom then he isn’t scum at all. And the posts where you said that Liger isn’t scum with Wisdom were made shortly after the posts where you talked about Liger being scum with RCE.

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

VOTE: popsofctown

Pops is at L-1.

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

VOTE: Cerberus v666

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

Cerb doiesnt lolhammer he is probably scum with Liger

Vote:Liger

Now for fucks sake can we lynch scum?

Why vote for Liger then? Yes, there is still the issue of his fakeclaim, but Cerb's quickhammer is even worse than that.

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

Basically I think Cerb was frustrated with how long yesterday was going because he was scum so he quickhammered but the ideal of that being scum action in of itself is one I am not sure about. We didn't have much time but Cerberus said he regrets about not hammering me and the reasoning behind that I think tells me he is more likely scum. I don't think town him would think its better to do quicker lynches and he seemed to be a proponent for reasons I don't think are true or are misleading.

Looking back at this exchange between Pops and Almost50:

I'm not gonna claim without L-1 plus Threat.

So hustle.

I'd consensus lynch pretty much anyone but RCE. Not sure whether I would hop on for Liger.

I'm not gonna claim without L-1 plus Threat.

So hustle.

I'd consensus lynch pretty much anyone but RCE. Not sure whether I would hop on for Liger.

Another one of those posts where I need to tilt my head to try and digest.

So, you were OK getting lynched on the condition it cleared Liger, but you preemptively won't claim? Would any "TPR" in their right mind agree to get lynched to clear someone else? You basically already claimed VT, and I would not believe any other claim you might come up with, and the loss of a VT is the "best bad thing" we can do right now.

Also, you say you'd lynch just about anyone else? Tell me something: How is my lynch -say- more beneficial/infortmative to town than yours? OK, how is Shiro's? *Shrug*

RCE basically claimed PR for me on day 2 it you'd paid more attention. I found this rather annoying and antitown, but I still think he's town.

Please pay attention.

There are an awful, awful lot of roles weaker than IC, which is what a VT the town agrees not to lynch functions as.

Obviously, I would rather not be lynched at all, that's true of any alignment but jester. But I'm going to try my damnedest to make this two day mislynches sequence thing not happen

Almost50 starts by saying that Pops's play wasn't consistent with a TPR (i.e., "volunteering" to be the day three lynch), and Pops replies by strongly suggesting that he wasn't a VT. Pops's post 2169 was fairly vague, but he mentioned the IC role specifically. So if Cerb is scum, he may have believed that Pops was softing IC and was concerned that Pops would activate his IC and therefore become unlynchable. And considering that all of {Almost50, Alchemist, URAP2} are confirmed town, there is a limited pool of players to draw mislynches from so it makes sense that scum!Cerb would quickhammer Pops if he felt he couldn't afford to miss out on that mislynch. Pops and Liger (who’s wagon had already fallen apart) were both voting for Cerb at the end of day three, so scum!Cerb may have also been concerned that he would have been wagoned himself if the Pops wagon had fallen apart.

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

My role is protoss observer, a

town one-shot tracker, one-shot watcher

On night two I tracked Liger_Zero (he didn't visit anyone).
On night three I watched Almost50 (no one visited him).

Icon should claim next.

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

I was sure Hydra/Liger/shiro/Ico had scum in that grouping from the pop wagon.

I voted pop with the intention of baiting scum, only confirmed town were on the wagon and possibly moongrass? But the idea was scum had to make a move on that wagon after my vote to put the Lynch through, essentially claiming red. I was right... But Cerb intended to claim scum anyways. Now I'm not sure if Volxen jumping on was also scum.

A50 are you still sure Volxen is town?

Cerb would have quickhammered after anyone put Pops up to L-1, considering his role allows him one "freebie" quickhammer. And it's bonus points for him that I was the one who put Pops up to L-1, because it allows him to create paranoia about my slot (since he quickhammered shortly after I put Pops up to L-1) and potentially setup Pops and I as back-to-back mislynches.

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

My role is protoss observer, a

town one-shot tracker, one-shot watcher

On night two I tracked Liger_Zero (he didn't visit anyone).
On night three I watched Almost50 (no one visited him).

Icon should claim next.

- Volxen

Why did you wait a night?

Because I only have two shots and I didn't have any strong scumreads on night one after Chennisden flipped town. And I thought it was highly unlikely that I would watch the person who got nightkilled on night one.

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

Because I only have two shots and I didn't have any strong scumreads on night one after Chennisden flipped town. And I thought it was highly unlikely that I would watch the person who got nightkilled on night one.

- Volxen

This is kind of hard to buy because you looked like the D2 lynch after your D1 counterwagon flipped green. Pretty sure town tries to use their powers asap when it looks like they're high on the kill list.

I'm frequently incorrectly scumread and even wagoned as town on day one, only to turn things around and become more townread on day two and beyond. So no, I wasn't operating under the assumption that I would be the automatic default lynch on day two simply because Chennisden flipped town.

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

My role is protoss observer, a

town one-shot tracker, one-shot watcher

On night two I tracked Liger_Zero (he didn't visit anyone).
On night three I watched Almost50 (no one visited him).

Icon should claim next.

- Volxen

Why watch A50?

Because he has been confirmed town since day three and I thought he was a likely target for the nightkill.

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

Relooking at the D1 wagons makes me think Volxen is scum. Wisdom jumped on both counterwagons.

Wisdom was on all three of the {Shiro, Volxen/MJL, Chennisden} wagons on day one in that order. Yes, he did end up moving his vote to Chennisden at the end of the day, but that was only after Chennisden had claimed odd-night jailkeeper. Prior to that he kept his vote on me when our wagons were neck-and-neck:

Votecount 1.13

Volxen MJL Combo Pack(6)

~ u r a person 2(62), Iconeum(52), chennisden(45), Liger_Zero(199), Wisdom(114), Moongrass(73)

chennisden(6)

~ RCEnigma(108), Volxen MJL Combo Pack(37), Almost50(89), Cerberus v666(30), Alchemist21(61), popsofctown(134)

Liger_Zero(2)

~ Shiro(28), Flavor Leaf(147)

Shiro(1)

~ Hydra TBD(27)


Not Voting (1): Powerpuff Girls(236)

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2019-04-23 14:37:57)

FLAVOR

Votecount 1.14

Volxen MJL Combo Pack(4)

~ u r a person 2(62), Iconeum(52), chennisden(45), Liger_Zero(199),

chennisden(9)

~ RCEnigma(108), Volxen MJL Combo Pack(37), Almost50(89), Cerberus v666(30), Alchemist21(61), popsofctown(134), Wisdom, Moongrass, Powerpuff Girls

Liger_Zero(2)

~ Shiro(28), Flavor Leaf(147)

Shiro(1)

~ Hydra TBD(27)


Not Voting (0):

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2019-04-23 14:37:57)

FLAVOR

1378 is the post where Wisdom voted for me, and he switched his vote to Chennisden in 1481 after his roleclaim. It makes sense for him to do this if he felt that he would permanently lose out on the opportunity to mislynch Chennisden if he couldn't cast doubt on the claim. If I had been mislynched on day one instead of Chennisden, then it's possible that 1) Chennisden would have become confirmed town via stopping the nightkill from going through on night one or 2) scum would have had to waste a nightkill killing Chennisden if they were concerned about him stopping the nightkill. The point being that it would be easier to setup Chennisden and I as back-to-back mislynches if Chennisden goes down first due to his roleclaim, and the fact that Wisdom knew that there would be a lot of concerns about my slot after Chennisden's flip considering that I was the one who really started that wagon.

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

I think Icon is scum.

601
602
606
623
625
669
843
851
859
1948
2021


1. He talked a lot about wanting to lynch Shadow/Wisdom through the BP claim on day one, but he never once voted for the slot, so his actions were not consistent with his words. He criticized people for disagreeing with him on lynching Shadow/Wisdom through the BP claim and even voted for RCEnigma for this reason, but he never once voted for Shadow/Wisdom. He claimed that it was "too hard" to lynch this slot once Wisdom replaced Shadow (2018 2026), which is a convenient excuse for not pushing his supposed top scumread. So if he is scum he was heavily distancing himself from Shadow/Wisdom all of day one, but he wasn’t willing to follow through and actually bus him. And if he is scum he conveniently took advantage of URAP2’s concerns over our slot to sheep URAP2 in voting for us (731) and pivot himself from having Shadow/Wisdom as his top scumread to having our slot as his top scumread. He’s been tunneling our slot all game long and has never reconsidered his read on us, and I don't think his push on us has been made in good faith.

855
856


2. After Wisdom replaced Shadow Icon asked him, "Was Shadow scum?". Something feels off about this interaction between Icon and Wisdom, especially since Icon never voted for the slot. If Icon is town he should be seriously trying to sort Wisdom, not asking him if his predecessor was scum while simultaneously not applying any pressure to the slot.

1310
1952
1954
2213
2249
2281


3. Icon claims to have our slot as his strongest scumread, but he’s offered very little of his own thoughts on our slot. For example, on day three he just quoted one of his day one posts to justify voting for us again; and in that post, he mostly just agreed with points brought up by URAP2. If our slot is his top scumread he should be able articulate reasons of his own for scumreading us so strongly, but he hasn’t had much to say about our slot beyond agreeing with points brought up by URAP2, saying that MJL’s posts in this game somehow “perfectly align” with her one completed scumgame with no explanation as to why he believes this is the case, and talking about our slots position on the Cerb wagon.


2049

4. Despite claiming to have our slot as his top scumread, he spent most of day three parking his vote on Moongrass making it a vanity wagon. Icon realistically knew that Moongrass would never be lynched, so why waste his vote by leaving it on Moongrass?

2136

5. Icon did not comment on Liger's two lies (1. his lie that he was an investigative role and 2. his lie that he got an innocent result on Wisdom) until towards the end of day three. He brought up other points related to Liger earlier in the day (e.g., he said he thought Liger could be scum with RCE), but he didn't address this until the end of the day. Considering this was a

major

event, Icon should have addressed this right off the bat at the beginning of day three, and he should have taken a hard stance on Liger one way or the other. Instead he criticized the wagon on Liger and didn't really explain his townread of Liger until the end of the day.


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2040

6. Icon claimed to suspect Pops could be a deepwolf, but he never voted for Pops on day three. Pops was the counter-wagon to Liger; his wagon formed after the Liger wagon collapsed. Icon managed to avoid being on both wagons, despite claiming to be suspicious of Pops. Considering it was very clear that Moongrass wasn't getting lynched, why didn't Icon vote for Pops? If Icon is scum and Liger is town, then Icon knew that both Liger and Pops would be flipping town and he made a conscious decision to deliberately avoid both wagons. And instead left his vanity vote on Moongrass. Which makes sense if he believes that Pops would be lynched anyways, as it allows him to look good by staying off of the wagon.


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7. Icon was inconsistent on his stance towards Liger on day three. For example, he made posts where he called Liger a liar and said he thought Liger and RCE could be scum together (with no further elaboration as to why he thought this could be the case, or why he found RCE independently scummy), and then a short time later he said he thought Wisdom and Liger couldn't be scum together. Which contradicts his previous point about Liger and RCE being scum together, because if Liger isn't scum with Wisdom, then he isn't scum at all.


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8. Given that Wisdom was supposedly such a strong scumread for Icon, why was Icon so quick to dismiss the possibility of scum!Liger faking an innocent result on his scumbuddy? Most of us were suspicious of Liger at least at the beginning of day three, but it’s as if Icon never even considered this possibility and just immediately defaulted to voting for our slot until he switched his vote to Moongrass.


- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

VOTE: Iconeum


- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

OK, I give up. I'm treating this as a penalty shoot-out kick.

VOTE: Volxen

We win today or lose tomorrow

Icon is still scum Almost50. The fact that Hydra buddied up to me early on in the game doesn't change that.

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

I think Icon is scum.

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606
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859
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2021


1. He talked a lot about wanting to lynch Shadow/Wisdom through the BP claim on day one, but he never once voted for the slot, so his actions were not consistent with his words. He criticized people for disagreeing with him on lynching Shadow/Wisdom through the BP claim and even voted for RCEnigma for this reason, but he never once voted for Shadow/Wisdom. He claimed that it was "too hard" to lynch this slot once Wisdom replaced Shadow (2018 2026), which is a convenient excuse for not pushing his supposed top scumread. So if he is scum he was heavily distancing himself from Shadow/Wisdom all of day one, but he wasn’t willing to follow through and actually bus him. And if he is scum he conveniently took advantage of URAP2’s concerns over our slot to sheep URAP2 in voting for us (731) and pivot himself from having Shadow/Wisdom as his top scumread to having our slot as his top scumread. He’s been tunneling our slot all game long and has never reconsidered his read on us, and I don't think his push on us has been made in good faith.

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856


2. After Wisdom replaced Shadow Icon asked him, "Was Shadow scum?". Something feels off about this interaction between Icon and Wisdom, especially since Icon never voted for the slot. If Icon is town he should be seriously trying to sort Wisdom, not asking him if his predecessor was scum while simultaneously not applying any pressure to the slot.

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3. Icon claims to have our slot as his strongest scumread, but he’s offered very little of his own thoughts on our slot. For example, on day three he just quoted one of his day one posts to justify voting for us again; and in that post, he mostly just agreed with points brought up by URAP2. If our slot is his top scumread he should be able articulate reasons of his own for scumreading us so strongly, but he hasn’t had much to say about our slot beyond agreeing with points brought up by URAP2, saying that MJL’s posts in this game somehow “perfectly align” with her one completed scumgame with no explanation as to why he believes this is the case, and talking about our slots position on the Cerb wagon.


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4. Despite claiming to have our slot as his top scumread, he spent most of day three parking his vote on Moongrass making it a vanity wagon. Icon realistically knew that Moongrass would never be lynched, so why waste his vote by leaving it on Moongrass?

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5. Icon did not comment on Liger's two lies (1. his lie that he was an investigative role and 2. his lie that he got an innocent result on Wisdom) until towards the end of day three. He brought up other points related to Liger earlier in the day (e.g., he said he thought Liger could be scum with RCE), but he didn't address this until the end of the day. Considering this was a

major

event, Icon should have addressed this right off the bat at the beginning of day three, and he should have taken a hard stance on Liger one way or the other. Instead he criticized the wagon on Liger and didn't really explain his townread of Liger until the end of the day.


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6. Icon claimed to suspect Pops could be a deepwolf, but he never voted for Pops on day three. Pops was the counter-wagon to Liger; his wagon formed after the Liger wagon collapsed. Icon managed to avoid being on both wagons, despite claiming to be suspicious of Pops. Considering it was very clear that Moongrass wasn't getting lynched, why didn't Icon vote for Pops? If Icon is scum and Liger is town, then Icon knew that both Liger and Pops would be flipping town and he made a conscious decision to deliberately avoid both wagons. And instead left his vanity vote on Moongrass. Which makes sense if he believes that Pops would be lynched anyways, as it allows him to look good by staying off of the wagon.


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7. Icon was inconsistent on his stance towards Liger on day three. For example, he made posts where he called Liger a liar and said he thought Liger and RCE could be scum together (with no further elaboration as to why he thought this could be the case, or why he found RCE independently scummy), and then a short time later he said he thought Wisdom and Liger couldn't be scum together. Which contradicts his previous point about Liger and RCE being scum together, because if Liger isn't scum with Wisdom, then he isn't scum at all.


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8. Given that Wisdom was supposedly such a strong scumread for Icon, why was Icon so quick to dismiss the possibility of scum!Liger faking an innocent result on his scumbuddy? Most of us were suspicious of Liger at least at the beginning of day three, but it’s as if Icon never even considered this possibility and just immediately defaulted to voting for our slot until he switched his vote to Moongrass.


- Volxen

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

VOTE: Iconeum

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

Setup so far:

Spoiler: Setup Knowledge

Wisdom - Goon
Cerberus v666 - Overpowered Scum Role (Unlynchable Bulletproof Evil Mafia)

Hydra TBD - Mafia Traitor [Only knows 1 group scum] [Unknown if Mafia know of him or which group scum he knew of]

chennisden- Town Odd Night Alien
popsofctown - Town Two Shot Adjacency Doctor
Flavor Leaf - Town Mason Miller
Almost50 - Town Mason
Alchemist21 - Town Joat (1 Gunsmith, 1 Cop, 1 tracker)
Moongrass - Town Even Night Roleblocker
u r a person 2 - VT
Powerpuff Girls - VT

UNCONFIRMED ---

Volxen MJL Combo Pack - town one shot tracker one shot watcher
Iconeum - VT
Liger_Zero - VT
Shiro - VT
RCEnigma - Even night gun giver

Yeah I think Volxen claim here wouldn't match the setup at all. The likely hood we have this many investigatives, plus masons, plus the protectives. No way. Scum have one op power role but given everything else I wouldn't assume we also got 2 different investigative roles.

Volxen is the odd on out. If not I would assume RCEnigma but RCEnigma can prove his role still.

Your arguing under a false premise, that I can't possibly be a one-shot tracker one-shot watcher alongside Alchemist's role because that would be too townsided. But considering Cerb has a very powerful role, if Icon is also a scum power role, then my role would be balanced. Because that would mean that half of the scumteam have power roles, and it would explain why town has multiple investigative roles.

You haven't responded to my case on Icon, and you are trying to falsely argue that I "have" to be scum for purely mechanical reasons. If you are outright refusing to vote for Icon, then explain why you are so convinced that he is town so I can tell you why you are wrong.

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

Volxen, do you think I bussed Hydra yesterday? Like, from the beginning of the wagon?

Yes. You knew you couldn't push me yesterday because Moongrass jailed me, meaning I couldn't have possibly put the nightkill through on night five. This is why Moongrass said he wouldn't lynch me on day five. And Hydra TBD was already under suspicion for various reasons, including the fact that they took a long time to come out and roleclaim despite being online previously. You figured they were going down anyways, so might as well get on the wagon earlier rather than later.

Do you think you deserve "towncredit" for being on Hydra's wagon? Because you've been boasting a lot about that and the fact that you weren't on Liger's wagon, even though it was really other people (Almost50, Pops, URAP2) that "saved" Liger from being lynched. You merely avoided the issue altogether and didn't even comment on Liger's fakeclaim until the end of the day three, long after his wagon had already collapsed. You weren't on Liger's wagon, but you didn't exactly dismantle his wagon either. You spent most of day three parking your vote on Moongrass.

And by the way, even before Hydra's flip you argued that there "had" to be scum on Cerb's wagon, yet you are arguing that Hydra's wagon was all-town. This doesn't really make sense as there was no "towncredit" to be gained by being on Cerb's wagon, considering his lynch wasn't really a lynch (although Hydra was on his wagon). Whereas there was potential "towncredit" to be gained by being on Hydra's wagon, and he was clearly the preferred lynch on day five in any case. His wagon definitely wasn't all-town.

You are scum and you bussed Hydra because you knew you couldn't push me on day five and you knew you couldn't stop Hydra's lynch from going through. It's pretty simple.

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

It seems I'm the only here who is actually serious about lynching scum today. Why is obvscum!Icon being allowed to skate by?

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

And how come you came out of the gate with a vote on Cerb the day he was quicklynched while you were previously TOWNreading him so strongly?

...Because I stopped townreading him after he quickhammered Pops when there was still about 20 hours left before the deadline for day three and before Pops had a chance to roleclaim? I don't even know why you would ask that.

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

Right now I think Icon's defense of Liger + being early on the Hydra outweighs his D1 treatment of Wisdom's slot, so I'm left with RCE or Volxen to lynch here.

And why do you think that outweighs everything else? Hydra was by far the most preferred lynch on day five, so it makes sense that he would be bussed. And regarding Icon's defense of Liger, if Icon is scum the point is that he expected Liger to get lynched on day three. Liger got up to L-1 on day three before his wagon collapsed, and it's very easy to criticize the wagon and stay off of it as scum if you expect the lynch to go through anyways. Scum!Icon was fully expecting Liger to get lynched on day three. Of course, to remain consistent, when Liger's wagon fell apart Icon had to continue to defend and "townread" Liger. It would have been far too suspicious for Icon to suddenly do a complete 180 on Liger and want to lynch him after previously objecting to his wagon.

Icon doesn't deserve "towncredit" for being off of Liger's wagon and being on Hydra's wagon. Scum after all want to be off of town mislynch wagons and on scum lynch wagons. This is also why Alchemist strongly believed that there was definitely scum

OFF

of Liger's wagon (not counting Cerb since he gave intent to hammer Liger):

Votecount 3.6

Liger_Zero(6)

~ Alchemist21(1), Hydra TBD(1), Moongrass(1), Shiro(1), Volxen MJL Combo Pack(4), u r a person 2(11)

Iconeum(3)

~ RCEnigma(21), Liger_Zero(45), popsofctown(21)

Volxen MJL Combo Pack(1)

~ Iconeum(5)


Not Voting (2): Almost50(32), Cerberus v666(6)

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 3 deadline is in (expired on 2019-05-05 15:42:11)

FLAVOR

But that’s what makes pops fit nicely into my theory that

if Liger’s Town then scum stayed off that wagon

.

And yeah it’s kind of a pre-flip associative but we have 3 confTown today and I want to take advantage of our numbers while we can because scum are going to start picking us off one by one.

Also I am not sure pops flipping scum would clear me? I am really wondering why many people think that. I don't want to argue I am scum, but I don't get how pops flipping scum would clear me.

i don't think people think it will clear you. I think people just think you're town

Pops I don't think you and Liger are TvS and that's not how I interpreted A50/alchemists push on you either. If you flip town it wouldn't incriminate Liger any so that point seems a bit strawmanish.

I think both Alchemist and Almost have pushed the idea that scum flip on pops cleared me. Which I am dubious of but I guess Almost now thinks that town flip on pops also clears me? So I am kind of confused on that.

I said scum pops probably means Town you. Don’t think anyone else ever outright said it but A50 has agreed that

scum wrre likely off your wagon if you’re Town

.

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

I didn't need to push you yesterday. I've been calling you scum all game long but we can only lynch 1 scum/day

If I've been your number one scumread all game long, then why didn't you push me on day three? Even if you felt you couldn't have pushed me on day three, that still wouldn't explain why you didn't vote for Pops, who was a secondary scumread for you at the time (and unlike Moongrass, Pops actually had a wagon form against him):

Votecount 3.8

popsofctown(4)

~ Almost50(40), u r a person 2(13), Alchemist21(32), Moongrass(25)

Liger_Zero(3)

~ Hydra TBD(1), Shiro(1), Volxen MJL Combo Pack(4)

Iconeum(2)

~ RCEnigma(21), Liger_Zero(45)

Volxen MJL Combo Pack(1)

~ popsofctown(32)

Moongrass(1)

~ Iconeum(30)


Not Voting (1): Cerberus v666(9)

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 3 deadline is in (expired on 2019-05-05 15:50:04)

FLAVOR

Iconeum I'm open to your reason for that. On a sidenote, if there's a deep wolf I think it's pops.

i agree on pops

don't let him go on the next days

So why did you waste most of day three vanity voting Moongrass? You knew full well your push on him wasn't going to go anywhere. Based on your stated reads at the time, you should have been pushing either Pops or myself. I don't think that town!you would waste your vote like that for almost an entire day phase.

- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

Volxen and Hydra on the wagon, Cerb off. Makes sense.

Don't try to twist the facts to fit your narrative. Cerb gave intent to hammer Liger so he doesn't count as "off wagon":

Votecount 3.6

Liger_Zero(6)

~ Alchemist21(1), Hydra TBD(1), Moongrass(1), Shiro(1), Volxen MJL Combo Pack(4), u r a person 2(11)

Iconeum(3)

~

RCEnigma

(21), Liger_Zero(45),

popsofctown

(21)

Volxen MJL Combo Pack(1)

~

Iconeum

(5)


Not Voting (2): Almost50(32), Cerberus v666(6)

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 3 deadline is in (expired on 2019-05-05 15:42:11)

FLAVOR

If I am wrong on Iconeum. Its Hydra TBD.

Other one would be Cerberus.

I think I have made my peace, let me know when you guys want to end the day.

Intent to hammer.

2 hours(4 p.m. MST), if there's more conversation that needs to happen, let me know so I can hold off on it.

Are you saying you want someone to threaten the hammer before you claim?

He kinda already scoffed at the idea of claiming, which I read as basically saying that obviously he's a VT because he fake claimed cop and what sort of other PR would fake claim cop(other than a PGO, maybe, but then that's asking a protective to get killed when they try to save you).

Alchemist specifically meant that he thought that there was scum among {Icon, RCE, Pops}.


- Volxen

[Volxen MJL Combo Pack]

So yeah, why don't you tell me why i didn't vote pops?

If i'm scum, and I already had a scumread there, why did I not join the wagon as scum?

For the same reason why scum!you would want to avoid the Liger wagon. You knew Pops was going to be flipping town, and you felt confident that his lynch would go through regardless of whether you joined his wagon or not. So why join his wagon when you can instead stay off of it and come out looking better on day four by

NOT

contributing to his mislynch?

The point is that scum!you

KNEW

that Pops would be flipping town, so that alone is motivation for you to avoid his wagon in spite of your stated scumread on him. On the other hand town!you wouldn't be 100% certain of his alignment prior to his flip, so there is no reason for town!you to avoid his wagon if he was a scumread for you.

It's very simple. You had all of {Volxen, Pops, Moongrass} as your stated scumreads on day three. Out of us three, the only one who was wagoned was Pops. If you couldn't get others to vote for Moongrass or myself, then you should have joined the Pops wagon and pushed the scumread that you had the most realistic chance of getting lynched. Voting for Moongrass was a very safe thing for you to do on day three because he was never going to be lynched.

- Volxen