The Mystery Box Of Silver 5: Clash of Cash death grips

[Rhinox]

danceHello!

[Rhinox]

oh a survivor claim on page three and then pages and pages of setup speculation how fun

initial reaction was to anything resembling policy stances but then there were so many

A nonslot is a scumslot so far as im concerned anyway.

im gonna ballpark and say if we dont catch any scum until D3 we look into that unless there's a vig in which case idk

Like i dont think ur my go to lynch but i'm not going to protest ur lynch either, and if idk where to vote at deadline it's prob going to be u.

Vote: Chickadead

Unless someone scum slips, I'm not changing my vote.

Given that this game is explicitly advertised as being 3p heavy though I'll policy lynch any player who unironically suggests lynching third parties.

probably some more I kinda stopped counting after a while.

I took special notice of Old Dogs directing a vig to shoot the survivor without stopping to think that may be a bad idea given

We've an active ability to help keep us alive.

and

there will be between 0 and 1 redirection abilities

And also Fuscosco taking special interest in said NK deterrents in 123

Mastina not wanting to lynch 3p in a maybe 3p heavy game seems like bad policy

Over time came to like ElevenThirty more and more so far. Got strong town vibes from Voted early on, then bad but still prob town after the first reads list. ZZZX has read as strong town to me so far.

Toog took the most hardline stance on the survivor claim and got the biggest YIKES in my notes so far. 189 stuck out as pretty reasonable logic to me though.

My reaction/notes on the survivor claim:

the survivor claim doesn't feel right to me. The "we're going to be totally aloof and not help anyone so scum doesn't kill us because that's what's best for our wincon" part seems wrong. since when does scum need motivation to not target a survivor? Towns, on the other hand, need lots of motivation to not lynch them, as evidenced by the reactions.


so thats my thoughts on the first dozenish pages more later after lunch

[Rhinox]

Ummm not to get all uppity over a small point, but you read the context, do you think said deterrents were the subject of my post?

I thought you were fishing for info regarding the nk mechanic. I may have whooshed a bit on the context there.

i completely forgot that chickadead claimed bp/commuter/self protective lol, my stance on survivors is if you Really Want Them Gone vig them like you would any other empty slot

Forgot? Over the 13 posts and 43min real time between chickdeads claim and your mention of vigging?

and rhinox the point of RAS's stance is that by playing normally and not claiming survivor/being useful in anyway, you could potentially give scum a reason to want to shoot a survivor. if a survivor is leading lynches on scum scum arent really going to care about the early lylo survivor is meant to give

I understand that's what chickdeads said, it just seems pretty obviously not the correct way to go about claiming survivor but eh not much to get out of dwelling on it now

[Rhinox]

The setup has been advertised as having multiple third parties, which means that as town, we want as many gone as we can in order to remove the swing potential of the game.

Toog why would you say this given your claimed role?

[Rhinox]

it's also not +EV to lynch a survivor until day-before-lylo because they count as mislynches when it comes to town wincon :grimace:

im gonna ballpark and say if we dont catch any scum until D3 we look into that

unless there's a vig

in which case idk - also im pretty sure the 3p is probably tied to the setup's unique mechanic so we probably dont want to lynch there anyway?

Was this not suggesting to any potential vig to shoot chickdead?

[Rhinox]

Oh. Well nevermind that then.

[Rhinox]

Sorry had to stay home with my son today he had a fever and couldn't go to daycare and I drew the short straw to stay home. Been reading when I could tho.

[Rhinox]

Also gonna be phone posting exclusively til Monday but I'll try my best to be thorough

[Rhinox]

Rhinox - haven't talked about this slot yet, I like their posting so far. Feels gamesolvey

This feels like buddying... Err .. pocketing? Is that what the kids are calling it these days?

Given your claimed strat is townhunting I'd expect to require more to end up in your townreads

[Rhinox]

It's very close to end of day, it would be super easy for you to come in and coast through the rest of today, hopping on a wagon. Instead you're catching up and questioning things.

Why is zzzx in your scum reads? He was my strongest town read when catching up?

Also why are you willing to lunch zeebu? You told zeebu you didn't believe deads survivor claim and then later you said he's likely not group scum so what about being not a survivor and not scum makes you willing to lunch?

[Rhinox]

I agree, the survivor claim is low on my priority list, and we should look elsewhere for now.

Oh wait never mind the zeebu part then

[Rhinox]

Also sorry my thoughts are so scattered right now but anyone else notice that as soon as it was mentioned nerohead not posting was scum indicative Nero instantly appeared like Beetlejuice?

[Rhinox]

Am I missing something or since when do survivors remove votes from them

This is like the secret day action equivalent of scum commenting on the night actions at the start of the next day. Do you think it actually indicates anything or is this just posturing?

[Rhinox]

Tbh, I'd lynched her just for provoking mastina to give more details on masonizer claim

~Aramis

What am I missing all I found was some throwaway line suggesting mastina could be lying and mastina never posted anything more about her acquired ability so what details was she provoked to reveal?

What do you feel about 1130's post regarding mastina's claim?

What.

Why did I just become a masonizer?

I gained that role, but it wasn't the role I started with.

huh
my guess is that someone thinks that your readslist was:
a) serious (still can't tell if it was or wasn't)
b) might prompt you to masonize someoen beneficial to them

the 3 missing people probably had something to do with it

[Rhinox]

mastina changed from masonizer to essentially masonizer after Chicka's "throwaway line". Why would you ever call out mastina here and not leave scum to deal with it for time being? I could understand, if mastina was Chicka's scumread, but that's nit the case

You talk about 370 post from 1130? It's NAI speculation

~Aramis

Eh the "essentially" seems like a distinction without a difference.

And here you're saying it's the "calling out mastina" that's the problem. Why did it take 900posts for you to mention this? It wasn't part of your reasoning for initially voting Dee way back here (which was after Dee accused mastina of possibly lying):

VOTE: Chicadee

Athos found 284 and 286 scummy, Porthos approved this vote, so here we are

From me, I feel like she's just making empty posts, avoiding taking any stances by herself - like she agreed with my stance on survivor claim, later she liked Voted vote on us. 327 looks really funny after 286. Claims townhunting, but I see no progress there

~Aramis

[Rhinox]

Just because mastina didn't spill all the beans doesn't makes Chicka's provocation any better - it's scum motivation to figure out if claim is real and they must deal with it or it's bogus and they can ignore it. Town have nothing to do with it, unless they think it comes from scum, but that's not the case here

I think it's obvious enough - I didn't wanted draw attention to it and there was enough other reasons for a vote and scumread. Why I brought it up now? mastina responded to it and I decided to use it to try get this lynch trough since we close to EoD and I need all I can get to get it through

~Aramis

But the logic doesn't make sense. There's no downside I can see to drawing attention to it, because if chicka was trying to get mastina to reveal more about her role then drawing attention to it likely prevents that from happening.

Eh let's continue this day 2 if we have to. I'm not lynching chicka today but I do need to decide realistically where to vote.

[Rhinox]

I scumread insomnia for 1388. Town don't coach their scum suspects on why they're being a bad townie.

I keep finding reasons to dislike 3musketeers posting too for example when re-reading vorkuta just now I saw 3M called out dee for being willing to lynch her townread but said nothing when vorkuta did the same thing a page earlier (1071 and 1073).

If it has to be vorkuta today because deadline I suppose I'm ok throwing the hammer but wouldn't be my first choice for rope if we had more time.

[Rhinox]

yeah ok I see no point in waiting so

====[]

vote: Vorkuta

[Rhinox]

3 Musketeers is a kinda weird nk imo, if they were it;

i'll have to check who they were scumreading when i have a chance

not really a big fan of nk wifom.... You're planting an idea here but not doing the leg work on it yourself.

3M lead the chickadee wagon (and that's not really a read anybody needs to wait for a chance to check), what do you make of that?

And am I getting votes because I hammered or...? Bc that's weaksauce if so...

[Rhinox]

I actually don't want to commit to reads on mastina or skitter. you wouldn't believe how town skitter would be if she was doing this one thing you won't believe [*clickbait*]

mastina being lynchbaity can go either way but it doesn't make her scum quite yet I think so *shrug*

Why isn't mastina (and old dogs) like 99% conftown right now?

[Rhinox]

a) i didn't say i wouldn't do the legwork, i said didn't have a chance for it yet, which is not *at all* the same thing, so this is kinda not great from my pov. like i'll get to it, don't shade me for not having read the iso yet

b) nka is p useful imo and i don't think 3m was the nk and i don't know who would kill them here really so

c) not going to comment on the chick thing until i read the iso because i honestly dont' remember what his reads are

d) why do u think ur getting wagoned for the hammer?

3M was the vocal leader of the Dee wagon you'd have to been not paying any attention to not know that or feigning ignorance now. 3M really only expressed 1 other player he'd have lynched and I scanned their iso and found that in like 2min before my earlier post tonight so I'm not buying "not having a chance". I'm wondering why you wouldn't have taken the minimal effort to just get right too it instead of "hmm weird nk gee I wonder who 3M suspected". I know you felt Dee was town yesterday so putting on my foil hat to me it seems like you hoped someone else would do the leg work since it would be suspicious for you to just straightforward say "Dee would be the one to want 3M dead" which is essentially the idea you're planting

NKA is maybe useful in later days when there is more information available, in my experience it's pretty useless after N1.

Idk why I'm being wagoned I felt like ppl voting me now townread me at least somewhat yesterday the only new info since then is I hammered a townie so... :Shrug:

[Rhinox]

mastina's action is NAI as far as i can tell but i think she's town regardless

Do I not understand what a masonizer is these days? In my understanding mastina and old dogs are masons now and last I played here scum masons are bastard roles.

[Rhinox]

For someone who just talked smack about checking an iso you sure have a hard time grasping that mastina is not a masonizer

Are you telling me that I missed that 1459 was sarcastic and old dogs literally just received a peice of fruit?

[Rhinox]

If so I claim derping but not :notreading:

[Rhinox]

mastina is claiming masonizer but i am saying she's not a masonizer. i do know that she targeted me, i have no idea if she's related to the fruit i received

Wait so then how would you know you were targeted by mastina if not masonized and all you received was fruit that you don't know where it came from?

Pedit: yeah maybe don't answer me and just let me sleep on it maybe I shouldn't be posting tired and slightly inebriated

[Rhinox]

Jul 04, 2019 12:18:07 AM
Jul 04, 2019 12:37:25 AM

Shit did I doze off for like 20min mid-post? Lol...

[Rhinox]

Prodging

Had family come visiting for the 4th. They left today so I should be able to get back in here later tonight. Probably mostly phone posting til Monday.

[Rhinox]

every time I start a post today I get pulled in to work and come back to a few more pages to take in.

VCA:

Vorkuta

(8):

ElevenThirty

,

YAYVIDEOGAMES

,

Old Dogs

,

Toogeloo

,

Chickadee

,

pisskop

,

zeebu

,

Rhinox

Chickadee

(7):

Old Dogs

,

insomnia

,

Voted

,

Toogeloo

,

ElevenThirty

,

zeebu

,

YAYVIDEOGAMES

(sidenote: probably shouldn't have picked red but too lazy to change it :shrug:)

{1130, YVG, Old Dogs, and zeebu} + survivorloo core group on both lynches

{Mastina, Wh4t, Creature} on neither

Vorkuta Only: pisskop, (rhinox)
Chickadee Only: Voted

-From the both lynches category I agree with earlier posting that zeebu is likely either town or 3p but not group scum. survivor claim isn't much worth thinking about except when to PL since there doesn't appear to be a vig, but I think the lack of vig and the lack of any expressed doubt on toogaloo's claim (meaning there's probably not really any other survivors) makes it more likely than not he is as he claimed
-{1130, YVG, and Old dogs} on both lynches. I'd rank 1130>YVG>Old Dogs in likelihood of scum.

I don't have a stong case on 1130 but their reads don't seem to follow logical progression. 3 examples:
1) chickadee reads when from town, to nullish, to hard defending end of day to, to "hmm lets see who 3M suspected" (still can't let that one go but I probably jumped the gun calling it out), to ultimately ending up on the dee lynch wagon D2.
2) Insomnia read went from scum, to town, back to scum and calling out anybody who townread insomnia
3) went from calling me p. town soon after I replaced in to scumreading me for nothing stated more than YVG posting "I think Rhinox might be groupscum" and 1130 responds "ok this is interesting"
But I need to take recent information/softclaim into account

YVG I don't really have a case at all. Very hard to sort through, high noise to signal. applauds me for hammering vorkudo D1, comes out D2 voting me, then lolhammers chick D2. I was bad at reading chaotic playstyles even when I was in practice. I would vote here.

OD well I had town vibes early and just kinda kinda let that ride. Will iso at some point but still trusting my first impression.

Initially began the day thinking >1 scum from this group of 3 but their interaction this day is definitely not S:S:S and I don't even think it's even S:S:T now so 1 at most is where I'm at.

From the neither category: Any of the 3 could be scum there's just not enough information, other than POE that this is a group which likely contains scum. Likely 2 IMO.

1 or the other group: well I'm in it, and voted is obvtowned, and I need to reread PK but nothing has stuck out so far.

vote: wh4t

I'm going to try to keep up better this day. I have kids and a busy job (which is why I retired and haven't played in >4years) and the bad timing for day 2 starting (and ending) basically over the holiday is why my activity slowed down. I thought I'd give the game another chance but I can barely keep up with reading the multiple pages per hour game pace of today let alone contributing at that pace so if that's what's going to get me lynched just get on with it and let me fade away back into retirement then.

[Rhinox]

Do we all agree {our slot, Old Dogs, YVG} has at least one groupscum, barring 3 mechanical clears? I'm in agreement.

-Irrel

pedit: absolutely

gamestate read says yes

~ Pichu

Nevermind you 3 absolutely could be groupscum together

[Rhinox]

isn't that strange (:

~ Pichu

This seems cryptic...

[Rhinox]

Rhinox wagon was {YVG, pisskop, us}?
I guess that might be a reason to townread rhinox fypov but it's not a reason to clear him as groupscum imo. I could easily see {YVG/pisskop, Rhinox, wh4t} team for example

Yeah why tf is wh4t still alive actually

-Irrel

Help me bus him then

/s

[Rhinox]

rhinix is meh. Not scummy but meh

you're meh

[Rhinox]

i have played 2 games with pisskop and i thought he shat town in both as town - i have no reason to think he's town this game :/

I'm pretty sure I played with PK a long time ago and have been having the same nagging thought here. i almost said earlier I was getting 3p vibes from him but didn't. i don't really think he's scummy but i agree with thinking that his play in this game does not match what I kinda sorta remember of town PK

[Rhinox]

VOTE: 11:30 this is better. That push on me is so disingenuous. No sane scum team would kill lurking lynch bait over the active town players.

No sane scum team would kill lurking lynch bait over the active town players.

lurking lynch bait over the active town players.

active town players.

active town players.

active town players.

active

town players

.

[Rhinox]

is that a slip or am I misreading?

[Rhinox]

oh I misread i think. you're talking about 1130's question to you and interpreting that as him thinking you would have been nked??

[Rhinox]

you're misreading

it is a reasonable inference that there are active town players in this game, you don't need to be scum to figure that much out

-pikachu

no I thought he was voting 1130 as active town player and unvoting voted because he was lurking lynch bait and posted before thinking

[Rhinox]

rhinox being the counterwagon to flipped town is scum indicative.

this gets a from me in a similar vein as "hmm who did 3M suspect"

I get all of 2 votes from YVG (option 1 from your gamestate POE) and pisskop and apparently that makes "THE counterwagon to flipped town"??

meanwhile you're on record end of day 2 saying I'm POE'd as scum if chick flips town, then insomnia who hard defended me yesterday gets killed overnight, and there's your vote on me right at the start of day 3.

As for day 2...

Myself and Creature were both wagoned up all the way to L-5 (please do read the first part with :dripping sarcasm: mood) as of votecount 2.2.
By votecount 2.3, chick was up to 5 votes, I still had the same 2 votes on me. First 2 votes on the chick wagon? both voters from the creature wagon, led by old dogs (option 2 from your gamestate POE).

So for my "wagon" to be scum indicative of me then I'm scum with Creature AND Old dogs? or if Old dog's is town (noting that you were conversing as if both town at the time) then scum push on chick somewhere in the voted (consensus town) toog (survivor) 1130 (hmm?) zeebu (3p or town) range? is YVG scum with me for hammering to prevent my counterwagon from gaining steam?

This seems not very well thought out. I read you as a *good player* so when I see casual mentions of things like "the counterwagon to flipped town is scum indicative" without actually thinking it through it raises flags.

unless I'm jumping the gun here again and will see where you thought it out some posts past this one but I'm off for now will check back in later

[Rhinox]

I'm not sure i follow ur logic here

I'm trying to say that you trying to convince old dogs that me being THE counterwagon to chick on day 2 is scum indicative for me is inconsistent with your reads. you're flirting with a "everyone on chickwagon was town or 3P" position which should lead a reasonable townie to a "counterwagon is NAI" conclusion. I think the way you're trying to casually lead old dogs to agree with you on this without you reasoning it out is very likely not town especially because reasoning it out should be leading you to a scum dogs/YVG suspicion (which you've been consistently moving in the opposite direction of), given the rest of the wagon is {flipped town, consensus town, claimed survivor, yourself, 3P or town}

the zeebu is scum if rhino is scum is a lol attempt at getting out of the corner you painted yourself into since your the one who reasoned out why zeebu can't be scum on D1 for reasons that shouldn't just stop being true when it becomes inconvenient

I will also explicitly say I feel it's a manipulation to call me THE counterwagon to chick D2 because 2 votes without much substance behind them is not really a wagon at all. I didn't feel like a counterwagon. I think the way D2 went down prevented a true counterwagon.

[Rhinox]

Also I'm discovering that skitter and I think about mafia really differently - like we understand each other's reads, but come away with very different game plans because I like fast and loose play that I try to corral into something solid later in the gameday and skitter prefers to follow her stronger reads for longer periods of time and while we enjoy playing games together we've already decided we're probably never hydra'ing again.

Btw the unsigned posts were skitter, not me

-Irrel

this kind of makes sense and explains why I'm reading 1130 as having inconsistent reads that don't proress naturally I guess???

On the other hand does scum actually push someone because "I'm certainly not towny enough to get nightkilled, how dare you suggest I'm towny!"
Someone else weigh in please

-Irrel

eh I think its NAI given how everyone seems to be sensitive to "pocketing" in the current meta (or in this game at least). multiple players in this game have become suspicious for being townread without sufficient substance so I could certainly see scum faking that.

i would, however, expect town to at least acknowledge the correction that you were implying lynched instead of nk'd and reconsider their read, instead of digging in as if it doesn't matter what they thought had happened didn't actually happen how they thought.

[Rhinox]

i have played 2 games with pisskop and i thought he shat town in both as town - i have no reason to think he's town this game :/

I'm pretty sure I played with PK a long time ago and have been having the same nagging thought here. i almost said earlier I was getting 3p vibes from him but didn't. i don't really think he's scummy but i agree with thinking that his play in this game does not match what I kinda sorta remember of town PK

So I went to investigate this and turns out I lied. I did play with pisskop before but he was scum that game and apparently obvscum to everyone but me who did a thing that was tunneling on town titus instead of letting obvscum get lynched day 1. PK also replaced out of that game. I don't really feel his play here resembles his play there so there's that but that was like 5 years ago and my play here doesn't resemble my play there either so :shrug:.

Possibly noteworthy is that how pisskop is reading me in this game is totally on tone with how scum pisskop read me in that game:
Subject: Mini 1556: Greetings Without Spain (GAME OVER FAREWELL)

Rhinox. Got nothing of note. Doesnt seem concerned with impressing people. So that.

rhinix is meh. Not scummy but meh

[Rhinox]

rhinox, voted, am I crazy? Wh4t's tunnel on us continues to be based on bullcrap, no?

i have a lot more to comment on obviously but no you're not crazy: 2702 and my vote is still on wh4t and I don't know why Old Dogs has such a hard time seeing this either or why wh4t refuses to address it.

[Rhinox]

again im conceding "old dogs is just bad at reading wh4t and is looking at a false positive in terms of towniness" is a very real possibility but im not going to work too hard to address it when someone i actually am good at reading is actively not doing anything in a gamestate where they generally shine

what's worse?

Actively not doing anything?

or

Flipping from not doing anything to doing something badly once real pressure is applied?

[Rhinox]

I am struggling with all my games. There is no pressure on me except the fake pressure Rhinox is attempting to apply.
I'm fighting a mislynch.
Another mislynch because you guys are this bad.

hmm

it is odd in this gamestate how easily we're settling on group not-of-both-lynches here if that is where the scums are with little resistance towards it (aside from you). even creature:

You're all begging for a scum stomp, but whatever.

this was his response when discussion was decidedly on-wagon.

and {YVG,OD,1130} all came out guns blazing SOD with "hey we all agree we're group highprob-scum here right"?

so maybe we are just terribad town, where 2? of {YVG,OD,1130} assumed we were at least competent town until we proved we weren't and decided to curbstomp us instead of bussing as initially planned?

because now too many seem in agreement that {YVG,OD,1130} are 0-1 scum and nobody but wh4t seems too awfully concerned about that from the off-both-wagons lynchpool.

ehh... i'm working this out realtime and not sure I'm convincing myself here that I really believe this. Context will make sense hopefully once i post my past 24hr catchup that is WIP currently

[Rhinox]

Lol I wish I was scum with Old Dogs and YVG
I would be having the time of my life
But the main reason I don't think old dogs + YVG are scum together is they'd have very little incentive to *play*, given how quiet the average townie would be in that case. They could have stopped being active many pages ago. If one is scum, the other + me have forced them to stay active if they want to be in contention for [not the scum from the group of three]. If we're all town, we're all actively solving because, well, we're all actively solving.
I think this logic holds from an outside perspective but lmk if not

-Irrel

it holds. I think I posted early on about being unconvinced of there being more than 1 scum in your group and this was pretty much why. It'd have been an odd as hell gamestate for you three to be 2+ scum pointing at each other while actual town is just apathetically letting you do whatever you want.

And like I'm in this new not on both wagons lynchpool and I'd probably be more concerned if it were settling on me, but I think I was early in this thinking even though I knew it leads to me being lynchpooled. but where's pisskop? and creature openly mocked focusing ON-wagon. Only wh4t is aggressively defensive of this new gamestate. but pisskop and creature don't care at all.

why isn't there more flailing if we're settling on group scum here? that's what's in the back of my head.

[Rhinox]

Catching up post last 24hrs before 2327
(by the way a lot of this is either obsolete or likely contradicting thoughts I've had since 2327 but I'm switching back and forth between catching up and being in the moment to be able to contribute better so :shrug:)

how can we solve this game?

getting a scum flip would be a good start...

Here's where I'm at, and skitter just agreed with most of it

Voted is town for matching his town game in terms of gambits/playstyle/tone
Rhinox is town for making a lot of sense to me this gameday, being strongly townread by others who wouldn't townread a scumpartner like that, and for his grumpy "ugh spamposters" style combined with a willingness to wade through the spam posting. Skitter is not sold, so this is the main difference between our reads
{Old dogs, YVG} has 1-2 town. Regardless of alignments, these two are very hard to lynch, so I'm not going to try rn.
{wh4t, Creature} has 1-2 scum. Both have crappy ISOs and Wh4t's push on us is entirely based on misrepresenting my posts. Creature is not trying.
pisskop remains very difficult to read.
mastina is unreadable except that I think her receiving a role in the same manner as us, and before us, is probably +town for her.
{toogeloo, zeebu} has 1-2 3Ps, and 0 town. Skitter wants to lynch toog if we're aiming for 3P today, I want to aim for zeebu. Both have "wow this proves they're not groupscum!" moments but I've leaned too heavily on those singular moments before and lost in lylo for it. Skitter thinks zeebu is less likely groupscum, but I think zeebu is more likely anti-town.

If there's anyone I'm missing (besides us), I have no thoughts on them and they should not go to lylo

-Irrel

I'm becoming uncomfortable with "consensus-town-voted" turning into "suddenly-suspiciously-absent-voted" today.

Wh4t are you caught up?

-Irrel

Nope I just read people's pushes on me better than other interactions so I'm happy trying to get you lynched at this point.

Did you read the post where I pointed out that I was referring to my frustration we hadn't lynched you yet, not the fact that you weren't nightkilled?

-Irrel

Why either way it's bad. You've been active and prominent enough to have brought it to people's attention earlier without this "frustration" act.

It's bad you're reading the comment as a "push" on you at all instead of the "why are we comfortable letting wh4t continue to lurk through this game?" interpretation the tone implies.

A more townie response would be more attempts to engage me rather than "why the fuck is x still alive" at SOD.

See i read 1130's comment as PRECISELY an attempt to engage you. I voted you to attempt to engage you. And here you are posting so attempt to engage = success as I see it.

Oh lol. I'll skim Rhinox but was that dude even on the D1 wagon?

yeah, I hammered. pretty distinctive spot on the wagon.

Scumreading me for lurking

is a policy lynch ehich you're trying to make look more than.

is that what happened though?

I dont think Rhinox scumreads then kills them unless he thinks that lynch never happens.

Presumably my hypothetical scum partners would have a say? This is bad wifom I'm uncomfortable being the beneficiary of.

I don't like the way Rhinox damces around scumreading 11.30. I'm not sure what that means yet.

That's probably your most towny post so far 11.30.

I don't like the way Rhinox damces around scumreading 11.30. I'm not sure what that means yet.

lol

pedit: lol

-Irrel

I lol'd at all that too.

Unfortunately I townslipped so you can believe I faked it but there's no reason to fake because I'm not under any serious pressure atm. *shakes head* either you suck or you're scum. I'll do you the favour of believing it's the latter.

I didn't realise Nero had died or was part of the hydra...pretty sure scum would know who they're killing? I still don't know why they died though because there was a fair bit of suspicion there. Maybe old dogs? I'll have to dig.

very bad and I'm fighting urge to lock in for this alone.

there's actually conviction

what? i don't care who you're meta-ing conviction is never a towntell

creature doesn't obvtown almost half the game after a scumflip though

~ Pichu

but if we're lynching scum, why does this matter in this gamestate??

I'm saying that a creature scumflip gives much less info than an eleventhirty scumflip

~ Pichu

*twitch*

katy

skitter is literally trying to shut you down because she NEEDS the wh4t mislynch

it's too dangerous to allow it to dissipate because that slot is under far too much pressure and creates too many obvtowns, it doesn't matter what her team is because that slot is always the biggest scum presence and losing that AS WELL AS obvtowning this many town slots can't be allowed to happen

she's not approaching this to try to convince you that wh4t is scum, she's trying to convince you that your reasons for townreading her are wrong.

THIS IS A SCUM MINDSET

~ Pichu

*from the future* 1130 addresses this quite nicely in 2290
also noting the casual nature of referring to wh4t

mislynch

it doesnt matter what this means precisely ("why the fuck hasnt wh4t been lynched" basically means "why the fuck hasnt wh4t been nightkilled" even if one implies that wh4t should be scummy or wh4t should be townie), you can still read into the intention of it being disingenuous. and from wh4t's town pov it makes complete sense to feel that way

what? it totally matters. they're like, opposite meanings even. and it doesn't make complete sense to feel one way after assuming one meaning, and then no hesitation believing the other meaning generates the same feelings about it. It's confirmation bias at best. Like I said above unless I'm wrong here I don't see how 1130's post should be interpreted as anything more than a flavored "hey lets not let lurkers who lurked through 2 mislynches continue to lurk", and not like an actual *push*

theyre not the same thing, but like the point of "why is this slot not gone yet" is the same?

the point is not the same. "why is this slot not gone yet via nk" is scummy wifom. "why hasn't this lurker slot been wagoned into contributing" is likely town indicative in this gamestate.

samey *stuff stuff stuff* between 1130/OD on this discussion I think i've said enough on it by now. trying to get to mastina posting as a pause point because I gotta leave soon

ok that's pretty much this point actually, so i'll pick up on catchup stuff from there later tonight hopefully.

so to summarize to this point I've cooled off on suspecting 1130 because 1) our reads are aligning on things 2) wh4t's case is bad 3) Old dogs is being weird about it 4) YVG is probably the actual scum of the power trio if any.

and

liking my vote on wh4t for real not just for "fake pressure" now

[Rhinox]

Hey i'm going on limited access until sunday night or likely monday morning

. I'll likely be reading and checking in from my phone but will be busy driving and doing family things so won't be contributing much.

I've read from where i left off til now and don't have any specific posts I want to single out and comment on this time.

i think the gamestate is weird af like everything is totally on script. the main wagon is the same names as D1/D2 + Mastina this time. The same names are mostly just "letting it happen" at this point as mastina put it. So like Mastina from your POV do you see creature NOT getting bussed in this gamestate like would currently be the case from your POV if the power trio is all town?

And this progression from pisskop is kinda weird:

lets kill zzzx

Like we all seem to share the same reads, why are we having such a hard time killing a foo?

creature is more likely groupscum

Lets please do that thing where we pursue our wincon

like zzzx is creature now and you're not voting creature so that answers quote 2? And is the 3rd post suggesting lynching creature is anti-wincon?

[Rhinox]

I think rhinox is just trying to string together narratives.

What narratives?

[Rhinox]

We're definitely mass claiming today right?

1130 did the thing happen as a result of being targeted?

And yeah toog is almost certainly scum here.

[Rhinox]

why does that need to be sorted before doing anything else

~ Pichu

There's nothing to sort tbh

Toog is certainly not neutral survivor here

[Rhinox]

why does that need to be sorted before doing anything else

~ Pichu

There's nothing to sort tbh

Toog is certainly not neutral survivor here

....................................

alignments?

I meant wrt toog. I was agreeing with you

Others need sorted, sure

[Rhinox]

mastina claim first so we don't waste our time with a bunch of bullshit? please tell me you're loyal?

-pikachu

While I softed as much, wish I was, and the game would be won if I was, sadly, no.

I was given a Loud Fruit Vend power D1; Old Dogs was N1, you N2, 11:30 N3. I was given a Visitor power D2; Voted was both N2 and N3. N3, I was gifted an X-shot Vig; I shot Wh4t.

Given that this is almost certainly lylo, 3 scum are alive.

I think that we can all agree, it's not YAYVIDEOGAMES/11:30/ANYTHIRDMEMBER and that there is a MAXIMUM of one scum there.

However, we can also determine that there's a maximum of two scum in Rhinox/pisskop, but also a minimum of one, almost definitively.

The only scumteams not including one of them would be Auto/Toogeloo/Yay, or Auro/Toogeloo/11:30; can we all agree that those two combos are unlikely?

Which would leave EITHER:
Rhinox/pisskop/hydra,
Rhinox/pisskop/Toogeloo,
OR:
Hydra/Toogeloo/oneofRhinoxpisskop.

Can we all agree that one of those five scumteam combos is the final solve?

Everything about this post is wrong and I take major issue with 1 part of it.

[Rhinox]

what's that rhinox

On my phone now. When I get home to my computer I'll say more.

Lot's of cavalier votes being thrown around for suspected lylo...

[Rhinox]

my god you guys

[Rhinox]

clarity post in progress

[Rhinox]

OK first things first Mastina's 2518 she's assuming a 3-person scum team. We know she's assuming that because she's eliminating groupings based on X can't be with Y logic. She's doing this without locking Toog into group scum which is bad and wrong.

3S:3T:neutral survivor is unwinable for town when everyone is playing towards their wincon. I'd be disappointed if this gamestate wasn't just an automatic endgamed. So this makes the majority of 2518 garbage basically. Bad logic at best, manipulation at worst. Mastina is a smart player who has been around here long enough to know what a NS means in a vanilla lylo scenario.

Also Toog is not really playing/thinking like a NS here. A NS wouldn't just be "willing" to vote whoever in suspected lylo/mylo, they'd be actually doing it. If the gamestate were 3S:3T:NS and not endgamed for some reason, then the correct NS play is to vote and keep moving votes until scum pile on and end the game. That's probably the best play for a NS once town can't just PL which may be the case now.

So in a 3player scum team, toog is scum, unless shenanigans.

Shenanigans where toog can be what he says:
-if there's a 3player scum team and NS AND some other mutually exclusive 3P wincon
-if there's 2plyr scum team and NS, then this is not actually lylo (and a toog policy lynch should be considered in this scenario anyways)

In the mountainous world, 10:2, 11:2 is the balance sweet spot. If there's a 2plyr scumteam AND toog is a NS, I think there's still probably at least one other 3P out there, or scum team needs to be buffed up. Actually my secret theory is that town wincon is mechanically impossible already and that's what triggered the 3 non-players to exit the game, and the game is still ongoing because various scum and 3P wincons are possible and mutually exclusive, but this is not a gamestate I want to exist in so I'm going to proceed as if I'm not totally fucked and wasting my time right now.

Back to Mastina's post and time for me to claim. When i replaced in i was an ascetic townie. D3 twilight i received a 1-shot vig and shot zeebu. (side note: for most of the game I assumed my role prevented me from ever receiving an ability but I did so i guess instead it means either the role granting mechanic isn't a normal targetting mechanic, or the ascetic only applies to night actions, or whatever. doesn't really matter tbh)

So I immediately have issues with Mastina's claim because:

-2 vig claims
-Mastina claimed as X-shot when I explicitly received 1-shot
-Mastina claimed to receive the role at night. I received my PM in twilight. I think every other role that was claimed to be received was given day phases or twilight (1130 can you confirm this?)
-claiming to receive a role at night, and then being able to use it the same night. The timing makes that mechanically unreliable and dependent on activity, which (totally outguessing the mod here but) I don't expect from the smooth operator award winning mod.
-shooting wh4t

my reasoning in shooting zeebu is that it seemed we were heading towards a PL day anyways, and I wanted to remove the suspected survivor claim with the most uncertainty around it. Toog seemed very likely to be exactly what he said, seemed more worthwhile to sort out zeebu. wh4t is a terrible vig shot with 2 possible survivor claims in play and the assumption that using the vig shot likely pushes the game to an 5:3 mylo state at best if it doesn't hit scum (4:1:3, 3:2:3 are both endgameable gamestates if 1 or both survivors are/were survivors) where policy lynching the survivors becomes impossible. The correct play is always to vig the 3P here and then lynch scum. Shooting wh4t makes sense if Mastina is some kind of sk or other 3P with a shot trying to eliminate mafia, however, which I hadn't considered until reading some of 1130's thoughts posted today. Initially I was thinking she could be groupscum with toog based on the first half of this post.

[Rhinox]

rhinox do you know if your slot started the game ascetic?

-irrel

Yea, it was the role PM I got when i replaced in. No indication of receiving it after the start of the game. I had assumed it meant I couldn't receive a new role

Why rhinox didn't claim ascetic earlier

i didn't know what it even was at first. i never saw it before when I used to play regularly. wiki had play advice where it basically said it can be claimed early but there's little downside not to. I went with not to, figured it'd just have been a distraction with 3rd party shenanigans already in play. I almost didn't bother claiming it now for that reason since i'm not even ascetic anymore anyways. If there's supposed to be a standard play for ascetic like how a miller should always claim early, i didn't know about it.

[Rhinox]

Remind me how you're not ascetic anymore?

-k

I became 1-shot vig. I can ask the mod but it doesn't really matter since idk how I could be checked either way

[Rhinox]

I do think it's fair to think that receiving actions in different phases is probably receiving from different factions. Receiving in twilight id probably from scum, receiving during day is probanly from the trifecta.

-k

and at night? Mastina claimed to receive her x-shot vig at night and was the only role to do so

[Rhinox]

Hey I've been pretty ill all weekend. Haven't read much of the past half dozen pages. Looks like we're lynching toog. I'm going to skim some pages before doing anything

[Rhinox]

Did Rhinox flake?

No?

[Rhinox]

wait pk is voting him

actually i'm not sure this thought process is helpful at all

pk is not scum with 2 of {us/yay/auro}

is that right ?

yay voted you for like 18 hours or something too

So... One of you 2 are scum,

or traitor makes a lot of sense.

My question is...

ngl I'm pretty sure toog is just traitor

2 scum in a game of this size is stupid, I'm sorry

3 scum and a survivor still alive is stupid, I'm sorry

~ Pichu

This is yet another reason why toog is the best lynch today

So why is he not the best lynch now?


Pisskop voting me... Well he's probably scum anyways, so whatever


I'll address mastina more tomorrow when I have a keyboard but until then think about why TF would I even bother claiming ascetic as scum, let alone later claiming to no longer be? I claimed last today I think. If I'm scum ascetic, I didn't need to claim it and draw attention to myself because I already knew nobody ever targeted me anyways. If I'm straight fakeclaiming I didn't need to claim anything other than vt. Simpler answer is what I claimed is what happened

[Rhinox]

rhinox tell me in simple terms why 2978 is wrong

~ Pichu

2978 is wrong because of 2984.

There should be 3 groupscum in a game this size. There's been a number of votes thrown around today. So either the votes are on/by scum, or the 3 groupscum can't coordinate. This fits with unrecruited traitor.

We also can't afford to be picky right now. We need a scum lynch. If toog provides the best odds at that, we should lynch it. The side benefit of a Toog lynch is that there doesn't appear to be any possible way we can lose if we lynch toog. That's not the primary reason, just the safety net. The primary reason is that toog is likely scum, not that "WE HAVE TO GET RID OF THE SURVIVOR BECAUSE THEY MIGHT SCUMSIDE!!!!!!!!"

The most negative possible outcomes are:

-we lynch toog and flips surivivor. We lose because mastina is actually SK and multiple kills fuck us right up. well, we're not likely winning 3-2-1-1 anyways.
-we lynch toog and flips surivivor. townvoice dies. we move on to a straight 3-2 lylo with a reduced lynchpool for better odds at finding the 2. i really don't consider losing a townvoice that much of a negative in the calculus, as it helps us narrow down (and the townvoices have been pretty wrong so far anyways but I digress)

By ignoring toog as possible scum, save for later, you're forcing 4-2 mylo essentially where there is the distinct possibility of losing the game with a mislynch, the odds of mislynching are greater, and toog is over there ready to contribute to a mislynch whether he's scum or survivor. as 1130 tried to explain earlier, worst case scenario, lynching toog today is the functional equivalence of no lynching in mylo. Best case scenario he's scum. same outcome for town either way.

Not only the above, but say we do manage to lynch scum today. Tomorrow we're in the same situation, where its 3-1 mylo + toog. by ignoring toog until the end, we have to have to beat mylo odds 2 straight lynches - only worse than mylo odds because of the toog factor.

pisskop is the only lynch i'd consider today if toog lynch is off the table. i think he's fairly obviously scum at this point

[Rhinox]

VOTE: rhinox

I don't think one of us has to be scum based on that? If it's 2 scum + survivor they might have just failed to coordinate

right that's what I was getting at, but i was phoneposting and tired so it was lost in translation. that the not coordinating possibly points to not 3 groupscum, because 3 groupscum would likely be coordinating better.

[Rhinox]

VOTE: pisskop then but it's probably about to be game over soon anyways so

[Rhinox]

kind of my impression of you anywho

that you are being town

VOTE: unvote

why TF would I even bother claiming ascetic as scum, let alone later claiming to no longer be?

Why not?

Why would you, as scum, choose not to claim?

Is there a definitive reason that you'd have reason not to?

You're, after all, by your own admission, not familiar with the role--so why would you as scum have reason not to?
Someone familiar with the role, sure, yes, they'd know that the way you claimed was scummy as fuck.
But by your own confession, you lack that knowledge of the role.
So why would you, with your lack of knowledge about the role, have reason not to claim the role?

Definitive reason not to? no. I wouldn't have though. Wouldn't want the attention. I'm not an idiot, the wiki info was enough to know it would be a suspicious claim. It'd be like scum claiming miller in maybe lylo with no cop guilty and no chance of a future cop guilty and actually there's no cop anyways.

Actually wait if I were scum my familiarity with the role doesn't even matter does it? I'd have asked my scum partners about it and got coached on the proper way to claim so you'd have to be arguing that 2/3 scum in this game decided the best play was to claim ascetic but no longer ascetic because role swapped to 1-shot vig* even though nobody targeted me to catch my asceticness and not having to worry about it going forward. so yeah.

*aside: I never had any doubt I was no longer ascetic and that my role was completely switched as I think 2691 shows no confusion about it and my asking the mod consisted of me asking if there was any chance the ascetic modifier carried over to the 1-shot vig and receiving a negative 1-word response.

VOTE: Rhinox
Let's leave that there with Toogeloo's vote already there.

I see no risk to it. Yayvideogames isn't scum; of {pisskop, 11:30, Auro}, pisskop has interactions which strongly suggest he's not scum with either of them; literally the only way this loses the game is if it's 11:30 and Auro and I'm willing to put that to the test.

by that i mean, tell me auro and rhinox, what you think

If I received a vig shot ( ) I'd have pointed the gun at the 3rd party claims and been comfortable just lynching wh4t the next day. Lynching wh4t would have been wrong of course but doesn't change the fact that not shooting suspected 3rd parties with vig shots in this game is more wrong. which reminds me to address:

This is also a scumclaim. zeebu was, by group consensus, considered "not groupscum"--either a survivor, or town.
Toogeloo was, by group consensus, considered "not town"--either a survivor, or scum.

This is not exactly as I remember it. Toog was like >80% consensus survivor. zeebu was considered "not groupscum" sure, but that was based on a replacing in derp that could have easily been faked, and it wasn't just survivor or town, he could have been some other 3rd party other than survivor, could have been scum traitor too but if I'm being honest I have to admit I didn't think about the traitor possibility when making the kill. I just felt toog was a known entity and zeebu needed sorted and my kill was always going to be one of those 2. To shoot elsewhere assuming missing scum puts the game in a mylo scenario (not lylo 5-3, not knowing there would be 3 kills) with 2 unsorted possible survivor/3rd parties is not a chance I take with a vig shot.

So but my shot is scum claim you say... whats the logic? I'm scum, I get a shot, I shoot zeebu over toog and either over any pretty much any other possible shot that would have had more benefit to scum. You say Toog should have been my shot so since not I must be scum with toog then? except I'm trying to get him lynched since post 1 today so the great plan is to bus toog for cred I guess? Only then I don't hammer when I have the opportunity earlier? tell me how this makes me scum???

[Rhinox]

I also dont know who to vote here

I don't know anything this game is a mess I regret not staying retired

[Rhinox]

it's not like there's a votecount 5 posts up or anything...

I probably shouldn't be antagonizing the person who's probably going to help lynch me but cmon.

deadline in a week

[Rhinox]

But yea, I need to stop being lazy. ive been lazy since i came back to the site.

you've made 309 posts in the last week in mini normal 2080 which just ended where you were town. originally I was looking for who was online during the time yay was voting 1130 and found you were actively posting for 5 hours straight in that game partially overlapping the timeframe I was looking at. you haven't been lazy, you've been selectively lazy.

[Rhinox]

Rhinox you have two people voting for you and you vote off wagon?

no, I voted on wagon when I voted. And you're just sniping at a vulnerable target here.

could it be {Mastina+Auro}? 1130 are you sure Mastina+yay have to be the same alignment?

but whereas Ive been 'selective' I have also not been 'scummy'

You haven't been... anything. not scummy, not protown. congratulations on being impossible to read, you can't be cased if your scum. convenient, for scum anyways. frustrating for town. i can point to everyone else and come up with a reason to think they're town. i guess you're going for "scum care more about looking town than town do." that's the best reason i can come up with for you being town.

so be it.

unvote, vote: Mastina

@rhinox does the timing, method, etc of you receiving your vig shot match mastina's?

-Irrel

no i've tried to say this a couple times already

1) i received my PM in twilight, before day ended, before the reveal, before night. Mastina claims to receive hers after night begins.
2) every other role that was handed out was claimed to be handed out during the day, except for this one shot mastina claimed
3) i have mechanical issues with being able to receive a role and use it in the same phase. It makes it dependent on activity. If she received it an hour before night ended and wasn't online she would have missed the opportunity to use the shot?
4) mechanical difference that hers was a role add on and my role fully replaced my previous role

(1) i thought pointed to mastina being 3rd party like an SK.
(2) points to (1) just being a lie (this is where i should have been jumping up and down shouting scumclaim I guess >_>)
(3) is weak out-guess-the-mod stuff
(4) is NAI just a difference

i also suspect 2 vigs handed out this late in the game, though like you said not impossible.
i also didn't like mastina claimed specifically x-shot, and mine was specifically 1-shot. i swear x-shot used to be used as a modifier literally "x-shot" as in "you're limited but don't know the limit" but the wiki on x-shot suggests the x is just a stand-in for a specific number that the recipient would know so x-shot really means 1-shot or 2-shot or 3-shot or etc. and known to mastina she's just not telling us.

--------------------------------

now from my POV:

When pisskop was voting me, everyone posted except mastina. the time from toog adding his vote on me to pisskop unvoting was small less than an hour.

if pisskop is town and toog is survivor, it points to 2 groupscum waiting for toog to vote before being able to coordinate (jumping on too quick might have caused pk to unvote before toog was around). I don't think this says anything mechanically about anyone since nobody posted besides me and pk after toog added the 2nd vote.

Now since mastina voted me, and toog is already voting me, any 2 groupscum in {auro, pk, 1130, yay} should be ruled out now that everybody has posted since I've been sitting with 2 votes on me. That points to the following possibilities

{Mastina}+1of{auro, pk, 1130, yay} (possibly + {toog} as scum or survivor)
{toog} actually just groupscum +1of{auro, pk, 1130, yay}, with mastina as sk

any scenario where Mastina is town and only 1 possible groupscum in {auro, pk, 1130, yay} seems p. unpossible

I don't think I can win a 1v1 vs Mastina if it comes down to who can yell more convincingly but here we are.

[Rhinox]

could it be {Mastina+Auro}? 1130 are you sure Mastina+yay have to be the same alignment?

I'm not certain, but they are. Basically I'm putting the burden of sorting each other on each other. If one of them is town, they're not going to vote the other anyway, so might as well treat them as the same alignment

-Irrel

Does it rule out mastina being SK though if yay is town? Like they could easily hard read each other as town in that scenario right?

i realize i'm grasping at straws here but now that it's obvious it has to mechanically be 1v1 between me and mastina well yay will vote me and pk already voted me once and auro is sniping me from the side so there's a sense of inevitability to the outcome of the game right now.

[Rhinox]

Rhinox what do you think is the most likely scumteam(s) overall

~ Pichu

sounds like we've reached the "what are my final thoughts" stage...

doesn't really matter since game's probably over once i'm lynched. but its Mastina + 1of{auro, you, pk, 1130} (in that order as of this morning) +/- toog

[Rhinox]

What makes you think we reached that stage?

~ Pichu

it has to mechanically be 1v1 between me and mastina well yay will vote me and pk already voted me once and auro is sniping me from the side so there's a sense of inevitability to the outcome of the game right now.

[Rhinox]

that means toog is not a survivor but groupscum with 1of{auro, you, pk, 1130} and there's no 3rd party or possibly some other unknown 3rd party with mutually exclusive wincon that doesn't want to help scum lynch me.

in which case we've circled back to how toog should be the lynch

pedit beaten by 1130

[Rhinox]

would what be the best kill fir scumstina?

the same exact kill. It was on town and is easy to claim for towncred in lylo

-Irrel

Nothing I say is going to push the lynch on anybody else ao just lynch toog

~ Pichu

I mean today's lynch is always in {mastina, toog, rhinox} no?

-Irrel

yes

VOTE: Toog

[Rhinox]

Pretty simple calculus imo

0 or 1 in {mastina, (me)}
0 or 1 in {auro, pisskop, 1130}

Thinking mastina/auro here

[Rhinox]

Sorry, why does the mastina/you 1v1 still hold after the toog scumflip?

Well sure I think the toogflip pretty much makes me town but mechanically if there were 2scum in {auro, pk, 1130} then I would have been hammered while I had votes on me from toog and mastina so therefore if there are still 2 scum left one has to be mastina/me.

[Rhinox]

So if we find scum in {auro, pk, 1130} today the other 2 are conftown. On the other hand there's no way we can lose lynching mastina today (well from my pov anyways)

[Rhinox]

So the Night Kill didn't affect your Mastina read at all?

No. Why would it? It's a heavily mechanical read, the nk doesn't effect it at all

Why'd you think it was me again? Tl;dr?

3077, basically

[Rhinox]

why is mastina town

She has a gun? A not-scumkill gun?

yeah.... me to. that make me town too?

Rhinox, will you be voting outside Mastina today?

Mastina is only for sure scum if there's 3 groupscum. She could be scum, town, or sk, if there's 2 groupscum. right now with pisskop voting you and everybody posting (but mastina) it's near a mechanical 1v1 with you/pisskop and that should pretty much clear 1130 so I'd say my vote being in {mastina, auro, pisskop} is a damn near certainty right now.

like if we assume mastina is town why does yay die
that's the part htat's confusing me

pedit but why does yay die over mastina if they're both town then ?

There's an obvious answer to the bolded but there's way too much "gee yay sure was a weird kill" going on for me to want to share the answer right now. And because there's an obvious reason when they're both town, that also makes it the same choice for mastina is she's scum.

Rhinox's reason for scumreading me also sucks. He took a *single* question -- my asking why he was voting for someone outside his wagon -- exclusively as scum-indicative.

That's not what happened, but now that I'm at a keyboard instead of phoneposting, I'll complete the thought. You were lurking on the sideline and in addition to beetlejuicing in a couple times your *single* question was this driveby mudslinging against me (while I was in a pretty vulnerable spot) and your accusation (that I was voting off-wagon) without context (that my vote WAS on-wagon, until pisskop unvoted) makes me think you weren't interested in asking me a *single* question to sort me but to pile on with an accusation that would help get me lynched.

Also, I'm scumreading you because I'm townreading pisskop and 1130 more, just based on yesterday. why does pisskop unvote me if he's scum? Toog was voting me, he could have guessed mastina would too (or known, if they're both scum) and probably would have assumed yay would follow mastina, or that one of you or 1130 might have voted me.

[Rhinox]

lol

so

me vs. mastina
pisskop vs. auro
1130 conftown

what a time to be alive

[Rhinox]

VOTE: mastina

[Rhinox]

This sounds an awful lot like "I scumread zeebu", not "group consensus was zeebu wasn't town". Because you fucking know that group consensus was zeebu was "not groupscum"; either survivor or town. Proof:

It is a scumclaim because it is a shot that sounds plausible enough while still being a blatantly scum-oriented shot to take. If you had killed YAYVIDEOGAMES it wouldn't be a shot you could claim (see also: Yayvideogames was the scum nightkill last night); if you had killed me it wouldn't have been a shot you could claim (I was consensus townread at the time); if you had killed Voted's slot it wouldn't have been a shot you could claim (at the time Voted was being townread); who could you have killed and claimed the vig shot? pisskop? 11:30? Slots that benefit you more alive than dead. (Or are scumbuddies but I'd say that counts as benefitting you more alive than dead anyway. )

Also with hindsight benefit can point out that you JUST SO HAPPENED to shoot the "could be 3p" claim that was town, rather than the "could be 3p" claim that was actually scum.

I didn't trust the "consensus" on zeebu and i had the power to definitively sort it so i did. You're painting my choice in the worst possible light while sweeping under the rug that your shot choice was worse in every way, because you're scum.

If I just wanted a shot I could claim, I would have just shot wh4t >_>. but wh4t is a terrible shot for town because if wh4t isn't scum it risks a gamestate that could have been an auto loss for town. Also, with hindsight benefit can point out that you JUST SO HAPPENED to shoot the "likely scum counterwagon" that was town.

Also don't see why I would care about being able to claim the shot instead of just taking out the biggest threat and say nothing? Everyone assumed the mysterious 3 did it until I claimed it anyways. Doesn't make sense worrying about needing to be able to claim the kill than it does worrying about needing to claim a scum nk. Any other shot that zeebu would have been more beneficial for scum. Any other shot takes out a bigger threat and/or likely leads to toog not getting found out as not actually being a survivor.

You're the one who seems worried about needing to be able to claim the shot:

I was hoping, to be honest, that someone in the game received a tracker power (a near-universal power present in MBOS games) and tracked me last night.

But again.

Those powers are near-universally present in MBOS games and was really hoping one was present this game to be used on me last night.

You were already worried about being tracked due to your other claims so you made a defensible kill on a town player that wouldn't likely have directly led to getting your scumpartner toog lynched except for the fact that I took out zeebu.

I received my role during the fucking night. Not long after the night; a couple hours. But that is when I received it. I used it that fucking night.

I think you're lying about receiving a PM at all. Nobody else claimed their role was received during night. Roles are obviously given out during the day and we've had extended twilights that support that rolegiving is compulsive and night was delayed while waiting for all the roles to be given out.

Rhinox
^Well...shit. Rhinox is, undeniably. Rusty. The era of "logical" players is dead. Given that he is rusty, he will not be as good as he was when he was at his prime; the meta shift will mean that things which used to be scum that he'll scumread, won't actually be scum anymore. His archaic style is likely to be scumread by others as well because people by default in the current meta tend to scumread the 'clinical' style of posting he has.

So why do I say 'shit' to this rather than 'cha-CHING!'? Because with Ank (-->and Krazy) in the game, they're likely to defend him. (Which, mind you, is why we should've killed Yayvideogames ages ago; why didn't we?) Ankamius and Krazy are the only players in this game who are themselves relics of that time. They recognize the style of the players from it. So as long as Yayvideogames are alive, we can't kill Rhinox. But with them dead, we can mislynch him easily enough.

wow... thanks for this insight into how I am perceived. I appreciate it, truly.

Apparently I'm learning this is the era of self-meta is cool now since everyone has self-meta reasons why they're not scum. So fine, here's mine:

I don't come out of retirement to roll scum as replacement my first game back. I nope right back out as soon as I get the PM. I retired because I'm terrible at scum. I'm pretty sure I still have PTSD from the time I was scum with UK/FL and tried to distance them by scum reading them in game and got torn a new asshole by them in game, in scum QT, in post game, etc. for it. On the off-chance I rolled scum and decided to go with it anyways, everyone would have known I was scum almost immediately. You pegged me as a "logical" player. The reason I suck as scum is bacause I can't play illogically. I get frozen not knowing what to say and post a lot less as scum. If I can't make a logical case I got nothing, and scum can't get by on logic. And i'd have been screaming at my scum partners to just bus me, and there were opportunities in this game for potential partners to bus me and it didn't happen. I'd be too worried about connecting myself to them. I don't know how to coexist with scum partners. I'm demonstrably terrible at distancing, I'm afraid to agree with them, and just end up ignoring them. At least a couple times this game I'd have given up rather than fight this hard to not get lynched. I never last this long as scum.

Also I don't really understand how posting a "here's how i'd perceive everyone as scum", when none of those perceptions save one are incongruent with how the game as gone down, is supposed to prove your town. The whole point seems to be to support your claim that you'd have killed YAY N1 as scum. It's a great argument because it can be true and doesn't prove shit. Your scum partners could have had other thoughts and outvoted you for one. Could have been PR hunting. Could just be lying about whether you'd kill them N1.

Um.
Literally the only player in the game who wouldn't nightkill Yayvideogames is me?

I'm the one player who stands nothing to gain from that nightkill (given that both Ank and Krazy were quite aware that I'm town and that at least one head of Yayvideogames shaded basically every one of the surviving players on D4 except for me; I can track down quotes where they give Auro suspicion, 11:30 suspicion, Rhinox suspicion...the only one I'm not positive exists is pisskop suspicion and even that I think existed at least once at one point yesterday).

So literally anyone else as scum.

Has reason to kill them.

Again, it can be true and doesn't prove shit, since your scum partner is in group has-reason-to-kill-them. Also you burried the fucking lede on this one big time:

Who else would scum kill?
Me? Rhinox gets lynched as a consequence.

Right so lets unpack this.

If you're town and I'm scum, I can't kill you because i get lynched. We likely can't both be town because scum {pk, auro, 1130} would have just killed you and used the mistaken 1v1 to lynch me anyways. If you're scum you can't kill yourself and you can't kill me because then you get lynched, so we're in agreement that the nk choice was absolutely going to be outside the 1v1 so long as 1 of us are scum (though i suppose YAY believing we were TvT the end of the day yesterday, combined with likely being near conftown after being the main cog that allowed toog to get lynched, makes YAY a strong candidate for being the nk even in this scenario). But let's check your thoughts on the choices:

pisskop? Removes him as a mislynch candidate. Also prevents him from potentially voting town, if he is going after town.
You, if you're town? Removes you as a mislynch candidate; increases Yayvideogames's already-dangerous accuracy as they no longer need to focus on you to solve the game; prevents you from potentially voting town if you're going after town.
Auro? Removes him as a mislynch candidate. Also prevents him from potentially voting town, if he is going after town.

right, so that leaves YAY as the pretty obvious choice, which you said:

You're delusional if you think that anyone else would've been the nightkill.

Sure, before I entered into the 1v1 with Rhinox it could've been me. (And both myself and Yayvideogames were under the impression it would be me.) But between entering the 1v1 with Rhinox and Toogeloo flipping groupscum, scum had zero incentive to nightkill me. I knew from the moment I cast my vote on Rhinox and we didn't lynch Rhinox that I'd be living through the night.

Sure if Rhinox were lynched yesterday, I'd be dead 100% today regardless of his flip.
But because he wasn't the lynch yesterday, I was 100% living today regardless of his alignment.

So all that crap about how you had nothing to gain from killing yay is just that, crap, since it's obvious to you, and me (see 3299), and hopefully everyone else now that yay was the only one getting killed by groupscum, whether it's you, me, or anyone else.

Also since you're scum and realized this, it explains the motivation behind the "I'd have killed YAY but absolutely N1" comments because you realized to can't stand behind the claim that you wouldn't have killed YAY as scum last night.

[Rhinox]

i know that i do this each time, but i have trouble distinguishing between 'making sense' and 'towntelling' for some players, and rhinox is in that category apparently

yeah but see above. I can't fake "making sense" as scum. so if I make sense, it's 100% a town-tell for me.

[Rhinox]

Mastina, my read on you was sheeping Yay's read on you + that NK never comes from you.

except even mastina explained why yay was the obvious nk even (or especially) if she's scum, see above

[Rhinox]

pisskop, ElevenThirty, mastina, Rhinox, Auro

Today auro, tomorrow rhinox.

it's real hard to trust that you're town when I'm with you for a few posts and then you go do stuff like this.

Have you acknowledged yet why you're townreading mastina for having a shot but completely ignoring my shot?

[Rhinox]

I'll get to this game tomorrow.
I fruit vended to Auro; I visited Rhinox.
VOTE: Rhinox

yea.

this make a 1v1 with rhinox.

welcome to day 4

[Rhinox]

Mastina doesn't perform that night kill now. If she was worried about Krazy, she would've eliminated them long ago, not lategame when they strongly townread her.

I see mastina corrected you in the QT to shift the narrative from "wouldn't have made the kill N4" to would have made the kill much earlier...

Rhinox "makes sense" but that's not town indicative, as you point out. I think it's easier to "make sense" as scum, in fact.

wrong. i absolutely can not make sense as scum.

Pisskop's been flinging all sorts of shit to convince you to scumread me, with little basis in reality. He was unable to explain any of his reasons in depth, when called out. He continually tried to rush a lynch on me, not just today, but yesterday as well.

He's making reasonable accusations that you're misrepresenting.

Both Rhinox and Pisskop want me lynched - that should be saying something

that you're scum with mastina

[Rhinox]

i think this is probably ending in:
i sheep yay on mastina and vote rhinox
and then i vote pk tomorrow if i'm not dead because voted was townie

@mastina since i'm like demonstrably not scum with anyone i probably should try not to die so do you wanna like fruit vend me ?

well you won't have to worry about worrying about tomorrow if this is the path you take, since

[Rhinox]

Legend of Zelda Mafia - I get Firebringer, my partner, to gladiate me to earn me towncredit so I can win Also featured: a loooong ass maf pt where I meticulously plan out how to win. Im not a causal scum player. Im very in-depth.

ok, so, one thing i'm looking for is someone who thinks it's a good idea for toog to fake-claim neutral survivor, knowing that he's going to get governed (i mean, i'm assuming scum were responsible for it)

it wasn't me
mastina's apparently town
rhinox had just replaced in (i thought he had repped in just after but apparently it was just before, so i guess it could have been him, but given retirement, doesn't know what ascetic is apparently, there was something else he did that indicated he was out of touch with modern meta that i'm forgetting, it feels weird coming from him)
i don't think voted comes up with that
i can see you rolling with this

do u know anything about the previous mbos games?

I would have been against it. Both because it's not my style (pretty sure i've always claimed VT as scum) and because I wouldn't have the first clue how to interact with a scum-partner-claimed-survivor in game.

but like I don't see why it's AI anyways since toog wouldn't have needed any partner's blessing to do what he wants?

[Rhinox]

mastina's apparently town

this is not something i endorse, knowing rhino and mastin have claimed bodies

it was different when mastina was the only killer.

ah there's the acknowledgement

it would help me read you as town if it seemed like you were actually reading the game

[Rhinox]

i think pk made a cogent point about how scum/nobody really seems to be looking for a 3p tho, so they might not actually exist

everyone was talking about how 3P-heavy this game allegedly is since day 1, and we had scum take advantage of that belief in toog, and we had town attempt idk something with it in chickadead, and the first couple nk's not really fitting everyone's expectations and claims of who should/would have been nked. I think all that suggests scum would have been concerned about 3p.

[Rhinox]

Maybe the assumption that there are two groupscum remaining is mistaken

If there's 1 it's 100% auro.

pk doesn't try to force you to vote auro as lone scum because when auro flips town pk loses tomorrow

and auro is more focused on me/mastina and trying to put off the 1v1 with him pisskop until tomorrow.

[Rhinox]

oh heyyyy

I was gonna come post here either tomorrow or Friday. ;_;

I knew Rhinox was scum and in pisskop vs. Auro I was 100% siding with pisskop.

yeah I totally fucked up my claim and you called me out. I scoured the wiki looking for something to claim and landed on aescetic. Then we got the 2nd nk and decided I would claim the shot since voted was so consensus town already. Right before I claimed I stopped and asked myself if I really still needed to claim the aescetic and logically my brain said nope but for some reason I did it anyways. And then totally fucked it up when I claimed to no longer be aescetic, i derped and thought oh yeah new roles replace old roles - shit nope they add on.

Then I just laid on the "logic" to keep 1130 on my side, and lit whatever was left of my meta on fire to survive. By the way all that about my meta was 100% true, the only reason I could make it through this game is because both toog and voted got so amazingly off the radar I could just ignore them, and I tricked myself into being able to genuinely scumhunt by pretending it was multiball/3p heavy (and town chasing it's tail all game didn't hurt either). And I really did almost rep right back out after seeing my role. i'm glad I stuck it out, but I'm not all too proud of my game.

[Rhinox]

Like i said ... i have a tendency to townread 'making sense', even if i should know better :/

I'm really surprised you voted pk. And I really can't fake making sense. Auro's telling me in the QT to start pressing pk and i'm telling him i'm not seeing a way to do that because I couldn't do so in a way that made sense. End game is where making sense as a scum strategy really breaks down, for me anyways, because i end up painting myself into a corner. I could usually make it work only good enough to get me lynched as the last scum, which is where I thought this game was going.

[Rhinox]

oh can someone explain to me about "wolfing" this was a new term for me and i've had a hell of a time trying to figure out just what it means. "open wolfing" was used to describe players in this game but i'm reading schadd's mod thread and there was "deep wolfing" and just plain "wolfing" used there.

[Rhinox]

k so that's basically what I was thinking but i was confused because I can't tell whether people we considering openwolfing as a towntell or scumtell X)

[Rhinox]

I'm totally in that dad range now where I stop being able to understand the kids' slang aren't I