The Mystery Box Of Silver 5: Clash of Cash death grips

[ElevenThirty]

I think u should be pushed tom

- skitter

[ElevenThirty]

Oh, do explain how i've not been playing the game

- skitter

[ElevenThirty]

I think that's a grossly inaccurate description of my play this game

- skitter

[ElevenThirty]

VOTE: insomnia

I'm aware that this is entirely symbolic at this point

- skitter

[ElevenThirty]

This isnt OMGUS, and you're misrepping and shading me by saying all i've done this game is omgus you

[ElevenThirty]

I mean ok so ....?

Like you're misrepping me and calling me scum for 'doing no solving other than omgus-ing you' and then telling me doing so is town-indicatice for you

[ElevenThirty]

You're doing something scummy and basically telling me to ignore it because you do it as town

A) if you're town here maybe stop misrepping people. It's at best a gross way to play and will get you scumread
B) you're basically saying that if yoh're town you dont care that you're misrepping me and that you're scumreading me for shitty, baseless reasons and that you're not interested in re-evaluating
C) if you think i'm scum why are you even defending yourself to me here?

[ElevenThirty]

I’m doing it unintentionally because of my sunjective belief that you are scum for tunneling me.

So becaude you think i'm tunneling you (i'm not) that means yoh just like forget everythibg else i did this game ???

[ElevenThirty]

I told you that I rescind my accusation on you and that I engaged in a tunnel. What else do you want from me?

A) i didnt read that post yet
B) no you didnt say that you rescind that anywhere

[ElevenThirty]

-

[ElevenThirty]

-

Whoops

@schadd can you delet this?

[ElevenThirty]

i forgot to mention btw but apparently im v popular? lots happened last night but i cant rly comment on it

Can I mention that I masonized you last night since I claimed that D1 at least?

yeah, i was visited by you and received a piece of fruit!

i didnt know if you wanted me to out that it was from you so was just trying to be subtle while letting you know that i knew

Ok cool

I still think insomnia is scum

You're still tunneled on me

3 Musketeers is a kinda weird nk imo, if they were it; i'll have to check who they were scumreading when i have a chance

[ElevenThirty]

Eh you've been pushing me since like ... page 4, and a large portion of it is 'she's pinging me the wrong way' and 'i just think this is how she'd play as scum'

There's really nothing i can say to that still

We haven't, he discorded me a few of his thoughts but i was at work and he hasnt responded to me since, i'm hoping we'll have time over the holiday weekend

[ElevenThirty]

VOTE: Yayvideogames

Old dogs I agree with the list except voted being town.

A) bad vote
B) i'm p sure voted is town

[ElevenThirty]

yeah

can you believe it though thats FOUR people that arent going to be able to play

Sorry who's the 4th person?

[ElevenThirty]

Lol skitter vengaboys is a hydra

-Irrelephant11

? sorry i have no idea what you're talking about

pedit i thought vengaboys was skygazer ...?

i'm so confused rn

[ElevenThirty]

Lol skitter vengaboys is a hydra

-Irrelephant11

Lol

Perot: yes my wife is healthy again! It was a stressful time in the hospital but it turned out to just be terribly large kidney stones

Pedit2: oh idk maybe I’m wrong about venga lemme step out of the thread for less confusion

-Irrelephant11

[ElevenThirty]

I actually don't want to commit to reads on mastina or skitter. you wouldn't believe how town skitter would be if she was doing this one thing you won't believe [*clickbait*]

mastina being lynchbaity can go either way but it doesn't make her scum quite yet I think so *shrug*

*next (non) reads*

pedit: hi relly! *hugs* how are you doing? your ladyfriend getting better?

i was kinda hoping you'd read mastina for me

i think the mastina/old dogs thing points to both of them being town tho

- skitter

[ElevenThirty]

mastina's action is NAI as far as i can tell but i think she's town regardless

oh i thought u were mechanically townreading her

i think you're town so if you were mechanically townreading her she'd be town too so is that not a thing?

- skitter

[ElevenThirty]

I think Rhinox might be groupscum

ok this is interesting

why do u think this?

pedit oh whoops i thought you were ank

[ElevenThirty]

Perot: yes my wife is healthy again! It was a stressful time in the hospital but it turned out to just be terribly large kidney stones

wait lmao you're married ?? i thot u were like a 20 year old dude

glad to hear abt the recovery

Thanks!

Also lol. I

am

in my 20s so there’s that

[ElevenThirty]

Perot: yes my wife is healthy again! It was a stressful time in the hospital but it turned out to just be terribly large kidney stones

wait lmao you're married ?? i thot u were like a 20 year old dude

glad to hear abt the recovery

Thanks!

Also lol. I

am

in my 20s so there’s that

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

ZZZX -- skitter what did you think of 341?

it just kinda was

it's a little hard for me to read because of all the links and the way it's formatted but i'll take another look, give me a sec

@old dogs we're trying to sort out the hydra dissonance now

also i think we could vote rhinox today

[ElevenThirty]

are you claiming it's sk despite no additional kill or groupscum fakeclaiming

I was thinking group scum, non-recruitable traitor, something sorta ballpark of groupscum even if not main faction group scum.

actually i guess traitor is reasonable for chickadead's claim but then why does zeebu rescind it if it was meant as a crumb?

pedit: i dont recall that post at all, d1 was kind of a wash. lemme take another look

we're also talking about this now wrt zeebu

i don't understand how he could have read the first 7 pages of the game and not realize that his slot claimed if his slot claimed his actual role

like these don't make sense to me together. either the claim was fake or he didn't read the first 7 pages (and some of his other comments iirc implied that he did)

also if he's groupscum who can communicate with them i think they'd point out that his slot claimed survivor, so i dont' think he's groupscum who can take to them

so like i'm thinking that the role is fake but since zeebu is doing ... literally nothing i don't think that makes him town

i think he isn't groupscum either but that he's ~not town~ in some way that is: a) different than the role claimed b) doesn't have anybody aligned with him

[ElevenThirty]

@ zeebu start playing

[ElevenThirty]

341 makes me feel pretty sure that voted/ZZZX is not T/T but I am not 100% sure what that means in this setup, that post bugs me in two different ways though

which specific bit makes you think this?

[ElevenThirty]

im pretty sure that the sequence of events is

ras banned > nothing about it is mentioned in thread besides chickadead's name in vcs being replaced > zeebu sees he replaces worst > zeebu reads chickadead claiming and nothing from worst so he assumes no claim because he didnt pay close attention to the vc

i think it's entirely excusable - i think the slot would be a great choice for a vig but i want to hit groupscum still

also i read zzzx's post and want to pick at it a bit

yes but like ... if someone claimed your role (even if you didn't realize it was your slot) wouldn't you notice? that's the part i'm confused about

[ElevenThirty]

a lot of the linked post comments feel a little bit more like 'reactions' than analysis,

i agree with this - on some level it kinda feels like a post i'd have made when i was newb!scum

[ElevenThirty]

3 Musketeers is a kinda weird nk imo, if they were it;

i'll have to check who they were scumreading when i have a chance

not really a big fan of nk wifom.... You're planting an idea here but not doing the leg work on it yourself.

3M lead the chickadee wagon (and that's not really a read anybody needs to wait for a chance to check), what do you make of that?

And am I getting votes because I hammered or...? Bc that's weaksauce if so...

a) i didn't say i wouldn't do the legwork, i said didn't have a chance for it yet, which is not *at all* the same thing, so this is kinda not great from my pov. like i'll get to it, don't shade me for not having read the iso yet

b) nka is p useful imo and i don't think 3m was the nk and i don't know who would kill them here really so

c) not going to comment on the chick thing until i read the iso because i honestly dont' remember what his reads are

d) why do u think ur getting wagoned for the hammer?

[ElevenThirty]

a) i didn't say i wouldn't do the legwork, i said didn't have a chance for it yet, which is not *at all* the same thing, so this is kinda not great from my pov. like i'll get to it, don't shade me for not having read the iso yet

b) nka is p useful imo and i don't think 3m was the nk and i don't know who would kill them here really so

c) not going to comment on the chick thing until i read the iso because i honestly dont' remember what his reads are

d) why do u think ur getting wagoned for the hammer?

3M was the vocal leader of the Dee wagon you'd have to been not paying any attention to not know that or feigning ignorance now. 3M really only expressed 1 other player he'd have lynched and I scanned their iso and found that in like 2min before my earlier post tonight so I'm not buying "not having a chance". I'm wondering why you wouldn't have taken the minimal effort to just get right too it instead of "hmm weird nk gee I wonder who 3M suspected". I know you felt Dee was town yesterday so putting on my foil hat to me it seems like you hoped someone else would do the leg work since it would be suspicious for you to just straightforward say "Dee would be the one to want 3M dead" which is essentially the idea you're planting

NKA is maybe useful in later days when there is more information available, in my experience it's pretty useless after N1.

Idk why I'm being wagoned I felt like ppl voting me now townread me at least somewhat yesterday the only new info since then is I hammered a townie so... :Shrug:

a lot of day1 is a confused blur in my mind tbh, it was a hard dayphase to play and wade through and remember, hence why i wanted to iso them, which, no, i still haven't done yet, but i will

like are you basically accusing me of vaguely casting shade on chick because ... that's not what i'm doing. like i said, i didn't know offhand who 3M was pushing.

i think that nka is a useful tool at all stages of the game. more useful later, sure, but def something to keep in mind now

and again, i'm not saying that i won't do the minimal effort required to do that, i'm saying that i read a bunch of isos last night and that wasn't one of them, but it's on my to-do list.

[ElevenThirty]

- skitter, sorry

[ElevenThirty]

VOTE: Yayvideogames

Old dogs I agree with the list except voted being town.

A) bad vote
B) i'm p sure voted is town

It helps if you explain.

on balance i don't think that yay is scum
on balance i don't think that a majority of the game thinks ank is scum

so it helps if you explain that vote

let's start here: why do you disagree on voted?

-- skitter

pedit are you just lying in wait lol?

[ElevenThirty]

Why the fuck are people so reluctant to lynching Chickadee, it honestly amazes me.

Pikachu slot has played terribly this game and so is the 11:30 wtf is going on

i still think ur pretty scummy

me and irrel think chick is on balance kinda scummy too tho

[ElevenThirty]

Why the fuck are people so reluctant to lynching Chickadee, it honestly amazes me.

Pikachu slot has played terribly this game and so is the 11:30 wtf is going on

i still think ur pretty scummy

me and irrel think chick is on balance kinda scummy too tho

[ElevenThirty]

Every single person that’s on Rhino as of right now should just get vigged imo

Setting counter wagons without any sort of case

People are just killing the guys that had the same scum reads as mine because I can be easily shut down by the people I’m accusing.

This is madness.

ok

are you complaining about the wagon on rhino because:

a) you think he's a cw to chick
b) you think he's town
c) both/other

[ElevenThirty]

Spitballing, but could groupscum's NK been blocked and 3M is a Vig/3P's target? The NK seems random and not any of the players I would have suspected.

yeah this is basically what i was thinking

[ElevenThirty]

I think most of the game has no idea what to think of me more than anything skitter.

Which is still amusing to me since my apathy and mood swings are not really from the game itself as much as my general apathy towards the game itself.

~ Pichu

i should have phrased that as: i don't think that you're a particularly viable lynch rn in this gamestate, there aren't enough people flat-out scumreading you rn

katy: by 'on balance' i mean i have reasons to think chick is kinda townie and that she's kinda scummy, but that the scummy things outweigh the townie things so the net result is scummy

[ElevenThirty]

occam says we dont assume things like that until there's claims or a second kill

i mean yeah but it's a weird nk and we know there's 3p so thinking that 3M may not have been the scum nk here is not entirely unreasonable

[ElevenThirty]

Are you talking about that toog quote? I don't know how to exactly describe it. It's like if you are standing in front lots of people, you want to look noble/ clever/ educated so you use fancy words and phrases, rather than telling your though as simply as possible.

not sure what you're referring to by this

[ElevenThirty]

Thinking his town and I don't understand the push, it was out of nowhere

and more importantly, how do people that do basically no work at all vote him is a sign that he's not scum tbh

ok

why do you think he's town. are there any reasons besides the wagoning/voting argument? do you townread him on play or ..?

[ElevenThirty]

You guys are just blind to the marvel of my scum hunting I think

i really don't like the bravado thing

[ElevenThirty]

Did any of the day vigs pass through?

it wasn't real

[ElevenThirty]

i mean it's *not* but from d1 the more we start thinking about 3p the shittier our lynch options are going to get

eh fair

[ElevenThirty]

I thought his catch up was town

and all the people that voted vorkuta are voting him

the wagon is horrible

I don't know where he got scum read from, like it was just...bluntly put and it was sudden.

Nk doesn't point to him like ever, he's been doing work, I don't get why a pretty big number of people came in this day suspecting him, doesn't make sense

his defence is also good, he seemed a lot more town in any exchange that he had

the one post i liked from his was his catch-up, i think the rest of his iso is not that great

[ElevenThirty]

like it's all things that can be explained in context but my net vibe is that the iso is not a town iso

also before i forget: i got some chick/rhinox s/s vibes a couple of times

[ElevenThirty]

You can nightkill me tonight if you want to get rid of me.

i think creature is p easy to read on replace-in after a couple of days (irl days) so i don't want to vote him right this minute

[ElevenThirty]

on balance i think scum!creature too, yeah, but again i want a few irl days before i commit to that

also still don't think toog is groupscum, whatever he is , just mentioning

[ElevenThirty]

Still only on page 40, but I have a feeling that 11:30 has same though progress as me on many things. Is it AI?

not really

also on reflection maybe i just don't like insomnia's posting style/tone and that's why i'm scumreading him.
like the things he's saying are kinda townie but i don't like how he's saying it if that makes sense

[ElevenThirty]

i don't get what you're trying to say there, sorry

[ElevenThirty]

yeah that's kinda what i just realized, that in the port arthur game you had good tone but like little substance

i don't remember the 911 game as well cuz i was scum but i'm remembering the bravado-ness from there too and i think you got scumread for that

so maybe the metric i'm using to scumread you is not that great is basically what i'm realizing and saying

[ElevenThirty]

>Just received another role upgrade.
>Is suddenly suffering from PTSD from MBOS4 where new powers kept on being given to me.

So since the first role was kinda debunked (or at least, katy claims you didnt use it on her) i'm not really sure ehat the point of this is

[ElevenThirty]

Rhinox (2): YAYVIDEOGAMES, pisskop
Creature (2): insomnia, Old Dogs
YAYVIDEOGAMES (1): Wh4t

not voting (13): ElevenThirty, mastina, Toogeloo, Chickadee, zeebu, Rhinox, Voted, Creature

This is disgusting. Even though I am only page 53, I will push this.
VOTE: Chickadee

I also towread Skitter and scumlean Irrelephant so far.

Just checking: you know that we're the same slot?

[ElevenThirty]

Caught up; I thought we were voting chick already? HURT: chickadee

What's the VC at?

-Irrelephant11

[ElevenThirty]

My reads are similar to the Old Dogs/Insomnia shared reads which means chick/creature/[toog/zeebu] has the scum or else all scum are deep wolfs

Not going to assume the latter if creature + chickadee refuse to play though

-Irrelephant11

edit: so how close is Chick to a lynch? I'm not ready to lynch her yet but that's where I want my vote, thus the HURT: tags
I exited the thread to minimize confusion the other day but I thought based on my/skitter's discord convo that we would join the chick wagon. Not sure if we miscommunicated on the level of our read there or if Skitter just forgot to vote but that's the wagon I'm most interested in joining. & I would also join a creature wagon.

[ElevenThirty]

VOTE: chickadee

[ElevenThirty]

Pretty sure that's L-2?

-Irrelephant

[ElevenThirty]

I'm open to the idea that Insomnia is the townie with a good handle on the game. If chick and creature are both town then Insomnia is pretty much certainly scum from our POV, but if I have to pick (Insomnia) or (Chickadee and Creature) as having 1 scum I'm always picking the latter group based on play so far. Creature can obvtown and isn't; it's probably just true he's scum here. Skitter and I agree that Ank might be flying under the radar a little here, but aside from paranoia I'm not sure either of us feel strongly that Ank is actually scum.

It's hard to trying analyze the gamestate when it's so hard to even speculate on the number of group scum. If someone said "2" I'd be like "huh ok", and if someone said "5 but they're severely handicapped by the mystery box of silver thing" I'd also be like "sure". So I guess what I'm saying is I'm not ready to push the idea of a deep wolf but a small part of me feels like there is one; probably just because we keep getting scum read and it feels unfair/bad/undeserved

-Irrel

edit: like that yeah. I'm not sure why me agreeing with y'all's reads makes us scum regardless of chick's flip. It's starting to feel like it'd be impossible to ever get townread here and that feels agenda-y, but I can't put my finger on anyone who's setting out to intentionally shade us at every turn except maybe insomnia or old dogs, who probably aren't scum partners and both feel towny in isolation. Feelsbadman

[ElevenThirty]

Every person that was on vorkuta is now on Rhino.

ftr this is why im not voting him despite the fact i think he's scummy x:

there is definitely scum in 1130/yay/rhinox/piss ftr - my ranking personally is 1130 > piss > rhinox > yay but I Could Be Wrong

voted and any other town outside of that let's try to bloc

Noting that this is interesting fmpov
I personally think Pisskop is probably scum by PoE based on this and most other active slots being towny. Skitter and I agree he "just is", and that we both have a hard time reading him historically. But basically if you remove us from this ranking thing I'd agree with it. I've told skitter multiple times that a tiny part of me wants to get lynched to make town re evaluate some things but I'm not sure we're at such a drastic collective misread of the PL that it's actually necessary - e.g. I agree that pisskop/creature/chick are the most likely scum here, with rhinox being too easily townread by some slots.

As an NAI aside if skitter and I ever hydra again I'm going to not overgame at the same time. It's frustrating that we'd be probably town leader here rather than consensus scum lean (as both alignments tbh) if we just had time to pay enough attention. Otoh I guess it's fine if we're kept around because scum is under the false impression we're lynchable

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

mastina can you like play, instead of making a bunch of "lol things sure are so fun behind the scenes!!!" posts?

-Irrel

edit: I don't think rhinox/chick could NEVER be scum together, but sure, I agree they're not the most likely pairing. If chick is town I think she townread rhinos too easily, and that he could easily be scum. I didn't love KidAmn's contribution before repping out, either. I am not here to get rhinos lynched RIGHT NOW, I'm just here to bring up that rhino does not yet deserve strong town reads.

edit2: you feel very strongly about this. Can you quote the posts you think could NEVER EVER be scum theatre?

[ElevenThirty]

irrelephant is just kind of a mess and i dont really know what to make of that

I felt this way D1, when I was struggling to catch up and play. I'm caught up now, and don't really feel this way anymore. I'm curious to hear as this game day plays out if I still come across this way.

Either way I personally think it's a town tell, so there

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

This represents my reads, and skitter's are not wildly different as far as I'm currently aware:

{us}
{old dogs, Voted}
{YVG, insomnia}
Null: {mastina}
3P Null: {zeebu, toogeloo}
{pisskop, wh4t, rhinox}
{chickadee, creature}

wh4t isn't getting enough attention imo

I don't think skitter has a read on creature yet and maybe I should similarly be giving him a pass for the holiday but his entrance is crap and usually I townread creature's entrance to a thread

Most of the reasoning for these reads is in our hydra discord; for reasoning, just ask

-Irrel

edit: responses coming in a separate post

[ElevenThirty]

also skitter30 from the "ElevenThirty" hydra will have a notable tendency to become VLA during fridays and saturdays. Take Note!

lol

irrel

[ElevenThirty]

Rhinox - haven't talked about this slot yet, I like their posting so far. Feels gamesolvey

This feels like buddying... Err .. pocketing? Is that what the kids are calling it these days?

Given your claimed strat is townhunting I'd expect to require more to end up in your townreads

This is where I mindmelded and is basically the foundation of my scum read on Chickadee.

She gave a shallow town read on Old Dogs that she later on reinforced when I asked about her read and said "I was the one to town read Old Dogs early and so have others"

She has no re-evaluation of any of her town reads. It feels way too confident in her reads for no actual reason.

I guess there is a world where it's s/s because he could've known chickadee was being held under scrutiny and he could've said it for cred, but it's a low shot I think.

I don't imagine the mentality behind creating a town core to be like :

This can sit on my town read for now, this can sit town

I'd expect constant evaluation within a town core especially when Chickadee claims her D1 reads are trash. So it doesn't add up.

So it doesn't hold up.

> her strategy relies on a town core that needs to have little to no scum

> she gives reads on a few people for shallow reasoning

> when I ask her to give reads on other people she says "I don't negotiate with terrorists and I give reads when I like". Even though she's giving people passes for no reason.

This is actually a pretty great case - I forgot about the "I negotiate with terrorists" which I agree was a bizarre response to a pretty normal "gun to head, what do you think" kinda question

I think the way you pushed chick last gameday without this case was the basis for our paranoia about you, and it didn't help that we were your other suspect (like most players, we can both fall prey to over focusing on how people are treating our slot specifically, and we both definitely were last gameday). I actually feel pretty good about chick's odds of flipping scum here atm which is nice; I didn't feel that way about..... anyone d1

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

I guess there is a world where it's s/s because he could've known chickadee was being held under scrutiny and he could've said it for cred, but it's a low shot I think.

I think this is what skitter saw in it. I agree with you that it reads more like s/t but I don't think it's "clearing" and I was getting agenda-y vibes that you refused to admit such. It feels good to see you admit this even if I now think it's probably just true that they're not scum partners

I DO think a chick townflip puts rhinox in my PoE though, just because I don't think rhinox is *all that towny* atm

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

I felt this way D1, when I was struggling to catch up and play. I'm caught up now, and don't really feel this way anymore. I'm curious to hear as this game day plays out if I still come across this way.

Either way I personally think it's a town tell, so there

i mean i thought you voting chickadee constitutes as "hot mess" as i said earlier. i dont really know if it's town indicative here, like you and skitter just have different approaches to how this gamestate should be approached as scum and dont really have much cohesion is a plausible explanation for why that is. i in no way anticipated skitter to vote chickadee here so like the fact that you guys were talking about it was kind of surprising

pedit: i think chickadee's "he's gamesolving so he's town" townread is also not s/s

I don't think skitter and I would be so contradictory itt as scum though? Maybe we would; I'm aware some players townread hydra dissonance so it's probably NAI here. Just sort of annoying that you'd consider it a scum tell, since if we needed to get an agenda through we'd uh, very much fail at it by not even being able to get on the game page. I also think the fact skitter has played more despite my head getting more town reads than hers is town indicative for us but whatever it's probably going to generate more paranoia than actual town reads on us to keep discussing how you should read our slot. It's just frustrating to feel like we're in a "damned if we do, damned if we don't" zone because of skitter's reputation and our struggle to have time for the game, and I would love if you and insomnia specifically gave us the benefit of the doubt a little, even if I can recognize that that's objectively a "dangerous" thing to do when it comes to skitter (and to a lesser extent, me too).

tl;dr it's fair to keep us out of the town core if you're paranoid about skitter but it's also going to be frustrating and demotivating for us both, and we do happen to be town here :/

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

also uh is there a holiday i forgot about in brazil? i think creature isnt particularly busy and yday i saw him posting in other games etc etc

Forgot creature is in Brazil and yeah I take back "I should give him room" at this point

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

Anyone townread wh4t?

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

Mastina, zeebu, wh4t, please play the game

-irrel

[ElevenThirty]

if chickadee is town, when it's time to aim for groupscum we're starting with creature and i think thats pretty clear

Creature’s tomorrow lynch regardless of Chickadee’s flip, hope people realize that.

No objections here.

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

Okay. I'm going to drop the subject of your read on us for now. Can you clear up exactly what happened regarding you/mastina during the night btw, or would that somehow be a Bad Thing? If you've already fully explained it I missed it.

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

Send us fruit please

[ElevenThirty]

Or target us with any other unimportant non-killing actions, it will allow us to take our very useful new night action

Hammering before Chick gets to post at all is annoying but also potentially pro town I guess

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

Old Dogs

VOTE: old salty scum dogs

why are you voting here?

VOTE: rhinox

- skitter

[ElevenThirty]

We're not rushing this game day like we did the last.

YVG is probably scum, Old Dogs still townlean, most other reads are in limbo until I have time to sit and do a lot of rereading. Mastina's not confirmed town btw, even if she claims something like "loyal announcing fruit vendor".

Old Dogs why is rhinox never groupscum here? Feel like you're referencing something but idk what

pedit: and suddenly my townlean on old dogs is in limbo

-Irrelephant11

[ElevenThirty]

You're all begging for a scum stomp, but whatever.

Sorta agree tbh
Come fix this if you're town

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

Do we all agree {our slot, Old Dogs, YVG} has at least one groupscum, barring 3 mechanical clears? I'm in agreement.

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

if ank gave intent i would have unvoted ftr

This is why my Dogs townlean is in limbo
This is almost word for word what the worst said as deepwolf in a game he basically singlehandedly won for his team, and while I'm not ready to call Old Dogs def-scum, I am also not ready to call it town in this moment.

pedit: titus is playing???????

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

gamestate read says yes

~ Pichu

why would you ever hammer chickadee if you felt this

[ElevenThirty]

That was a simul-post, it didn't give me a pedit

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

yay lolhammered and i would have been suspicious of the composition at that point

this was basically exactly the context

"oh no it was quickhammered before I could jump off! I was also not ready for that townie to be hammered!!1!" (sorry tw if you're watching, not a very good impression)

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

my blood is pumping so fast

pedit: there's certainly scum motivation to say "for the record! I would not have participated in that lynch if I could have opted out! You can basically consider me off the wagon, vca-wise!"

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

Mayeb you're town Old Dogs and if so I have confidence I'll come around but I'm having ptsd-lite flashbacks because tw was amazing that game and his partners were basically consensus scum but he always directed things to a mislynch and never lost towncred (partially because he was able to say things like "I didn't know my partner would quickhammer! Oh no!"
and meanwhile I've never played a game with you and know for certain I have not done my due diligence in making sure I townread you for strong reasons that match your meta

Not sure what to think about "Titus's only post was to vote chickadee", gonna have to ruminate on that one

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

Rhinox wagon was {YVG, pisskop, us}?
I guess that might be a reason to townread rhinox fypov but it's not a reason to clear him as groupscum imo. I could easily see {YVG/pisskop, Rhinox, wh4t} team for example

Yeah why tf is wh4t still alive actually

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

Why are y'all re-litigating whether or not it made some sense to think there was an SK after N1?

pedit: if you think you're the designated mislynch why did you quickhammer?

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

why did you quickhammer?

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

VOTE: Chickadee

We are doing this.

i guess now that titus is BACK im gonna sign

zero objections to this vote fwiw, i still think this is scum creature though

~katy

Okay here's Titus's post
Has titus offered anything behind the scenes

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

Oh you're simyk I think I knew that but forgot ittttt
That
well actually I'm not sure that helps at all but it might
Never seen gigabyte that I remember but okay

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

why did you quickhammer?

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

Old Dogs let's pretend we're both town for a minute
A lot of my reads feel up in the air so I need to just assume someone's town for a bit

Can we talk out the world where we're both town and then in like an hour we can scumcase each other if we want?

Also let Titus know I would find it helpful to be able to talk to her at some point

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

where'd everyone go

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

Vote count 1.b

Vorkuta (8):

ElevenThirty, YAYVIDEOGAMES, Old Dogs, Toogeloo,

Chickadee

, pisskop, zeebu, Rhinox

Chickadee

(4):

The Three Musketeers, insomnia, Vorkuta,

Voted

Voted (1):

ZZZX

[Creature]

The Three Musketeers

(1):

Wh4t

not voting (1):

mastina

with 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

d2 final vote count

Chickadee

(7):

Old Dogs,

insomnia

, Voted, Toogeloo, ElevenThirty, zeebu, YAYVIDEOGAMES

Rhinox (1):

pisskop

YAYVIDEOGAMES (1):

Wh4t

not voting (4):

mastina,

Chickadee

, Rhinox, Creature

with 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

{us, Old Dogs, YVG, zeebu, toogeloo} on both wagons

Do we have public confirmation of whether or not there's daychat? Asking about zeebu

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

I'm waiting to be mislynched

~ Pichu

why did you quickhammer?

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

uh sure

if you're town then ank is like definitely scum

i think creature is almost always scum here

wh4t is within her scumrange, pisskop i dont think is as townie as he was in skygazer's game, i think rhinox/toog/zeebu/voted are all fairly cleared, i dont know what mastina's deal is and she should hardclaim today i think

Talk to me more about pisskop I find him notoriously hard to read
If by "cleared" you mean "not groupscum" okay, but even then I think that's too strong to say at this point. Like every one of those "clears" relies on some assumptions that can easily take you past lylo with scum sitting in your "clears".

Is rhinox cleared for anything except who voted him for a second before chick got lynched?
Is toog cleared for anything except the (we all think not self- but might have been a self-)govern moment?
Is zeebu cleared for anything except the "scum would have told him his pred's claim"?
Is voted cleared for anything besides "pretty towny play"? (this one I still townlean, but cleared seems too strong here)

pedit: okay so zeebu still probably not groupscum? But also like, was on both wagons and is not solving, so almost certainly not town

pedit2: insomnia rubbed you the wrong way so you joined his wagon?

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

I'm waiting to be mislynched

~ Pichu

This sort of AtE will get me to vote for you, so if that's the goal keep it up

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

uh sure

if you're town then ank is like definitely scum

i think creature is almost always scum here

wh4t is within her scumrange, pisskop i dont think is as townie as he was in skygazer's game, i think rhinox/toog/zeebu/voted are all fairly cleared, i dont know what mastina's deal is and she should hardclaim today i think

I agree if we're both town YVG is almost definitely scum
Creature is probably not town, ye
toog/zeebu being "cleared" when both were on both lynchwagons seems just too dangerous
mastina needs to actually play, yes. I was hoping she would play last gameday

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

I think something insomnia said rubbed me the wrong way(?)

~ Pichu

Would scum ank do this?

Yeah I think she would too

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

Is rhinox cleared for anything except who voted him for a second before chick got lynched? -

genuinely saying yes

Is toog cleared for anything except the (we all think not self- but might have been a self-)govern moment? -

no, same reason as rhinox. i dont think incompatible wincon is something that would be read for

Is zeebu cleared for anything except the "scum would have told him his pred's claim"? -

i think gamestate makes it obvious he's not groupscum

Is voted cleared for anything besides "pretty towny play"? (this one I still townlean, but cleared seems too strong here) -

i mean why else? he's the only living slot i like completely townread now that insomnia and 3m are dead

Wait I'm confused by some of the "yes" and "no" answers.
"yes rhinox is cleared for additional reasons"? What are the additional reasons?
"No, toog isn't cleared just for that one moment - he's also cleared for who voted for him"? I don't know what "i dont think incompatible wincon is something that would be read for" means
In what way does the gamestate make it obvious zeebu's not groupscum? Aside from the "whoops didn't know what my pred did" moment my vote would be on him as the most likely groupscum here given his weak overall participation except to join mislynch wagons. I'll admit I'm pretty tempted to continue to lean on that moment as a reason he's definitely not groupscum but like I'm not sure I'd take him to lylo which means he should be in contention as a lynch imo
Yeah I'm not really coming for Voted just yet but I do think he's pretty consensus town and gamestate suggests 1+ deepwolf imo. "Cleared" just feels, well, informed, but I'm temporarily only considering you as town

pedit: we also got a mystery box. I claimed it in twilight

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

katy, as a general hint for how I think in mafia games

if I think the scumreads on me are ridiculous, I will act blatantly scummy and anti-town on purpose for no other reason than to make fun of it

~ Pichu

who was scumreading you d2?

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

katy, as a general hint for how I think in mafia games

if I think the scumreads on me are ridiculous, I will act blatantly scummy and anti-town on purpose for no other reason than to make fun of it

~ Pichu

who was scumreading you d2?

-Irrel

...........wh4t?

So you quickhammered because wh4t was coming for you?
Why not assume wh4t's scumread on you was just coming from scum?

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

Or target us with any other unimportant non-killing actions, it will allow us to take our very useful new night action

Hammering before Chick gets to post at all is annoying but also potentially pro town I guess

did anything happen with this then?

No. I'll fullclaim if skitter and I agree later that the setup spec info is more useful than our role (or if we're L-1'd maybe), but for now I think our role is more useful unclaimed

I've already softed this part so I'll fully explain that we did receive a new role right around the same time chick was hammered. schadd dropped the role description in our hydra pt and I posted what I posted
We had previously been vt but it changed, like mastina claimed happened to her

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

lmao i misread - rhinox is basically just clear for who voted him
pisskop thinks toog has an incompatible wincon with town but is 3p. i dont think you can actually have a read like that

What did you think of my idea of a {someone who voted for rhinox, rhinox, wh4t} team? I don't think I've nailed the team there I just think it shows that rhinox could easily be scum unless multiple players pushing him were scum, which isn't yet confirmed. chickadee flipping town shows she didn't spew him town, and his play is pretty lackluster so far. I'm not sure I want to come for him like skitter does, but I don't see how he can be cleared here. Like any scum who were pushing him could easily have predicted chick would be the kill anyway, and distancing is a thing

Insofar as survivor wincon is anti-town I sorta agree with pisskop, though I don't think that's exactly what pisskop means

Katy you have experience with pisskop? What makes him scummier here?

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

i mean i guess rhinox could be distanced or whatever but

i really feel like scum are trying their hardest to not bus, and im assuming thats because of either absurdly small or large numbers, with honestly 3 or 4 scum hits the criteria for both

none of this sentence makes any sense to me

rhinox was not in much danger yesterday - if the people on his wagon are scum, his alignment could be anything.
rhinox being the counterwagon to flipped town is scum indicative.
The bolded feels abosultely meaningless
Your townread on rhinox is not making any sense to me here. Can you give me a townread on rhinox based on play? I don't understand how you could be so reliant on vca telling you his wagon was all scum when the other wagon was on town and reached a lynch

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

pisskop why are you voting off wagon?

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

skitter and I have agreed to also reiterate about our role for clarity that our role only works if we are targeted by something other than a killing action, which is why we asked to be targeted by the fruit vendor. Mastina I'm very curious why you fruit vended YVG

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

btw irrel I didn't answer because idr

~ Pichu

Now that you've come up with a few different reasons let's go back to what you said originally, before I asked you about it:

Insomnia I hope you realize that tryhardBlake and trollingBlake are very different and you'd be able to tell when I switch between the two

The hammer was partly trolly partly getustothenextdayffs

~ Pichu

So why did you feel the need to getustothenextdayffs? I thought yesterday could have been like 20x more useful than it was because the day was cut short by your quickhammer (not least because we might not have mislynched, but even then). What made you feel like D2 desperately needed to end?

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

I understand how bussing works, and why scum don't want scum lynched
I don't think anything that happened re:rhinox is a true bus, though. Voting a teammate is just distancing. Only one player ended the day on rhinox

Vote count 1.b

Vorkuta (8):

ElevenThirty, YAYVIDEOGAMES, Old Dogs, Toogeloo,

Chickadee

, pisskop, zeebu, Rhinox

Chickadee

(4):

The Three Musketeers, insomnia, Vorkuta,

Voted

Voted (1):

ZZZX

[Creature]

The Three Musketeers

(1):

Wh4t

not voting (1):

mastina

with 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

d2 final vote count

Chickadee

(7):

Old Dogs,

insomnia

, Voted, Toogeloo, ElevenThirty, zeebu, YAYVIDEOGAMES

Rhinox (1):

pisskop

YAYVIDEOGAMES (1):

Wh4t

not voting (4):

mastina,

Chickadee

, Rhinox, Creature

with 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

I don't see why YVG or Pisskop couldn't be rhinox's partner here

My problem isn't that you don't want to prioritize a lynch on rhinox today, it's that "rhinox is clear" is, by your own admission, entirely based on pre-flip associations. Surely you can see why I would suspect you for suggesting "let's not lynch rhinox, let's lynch his busser" when if you and rhinox are both scum I've got a miniscule chance of hitting scum outside of you both.

You're describing a nullread, and then calling it clear. What am I missing?

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

I'm heading out for lunch soon but

HEY EVERYONE: get in here and play please

especially quiet, unsortable slots like

mastina, wh4t, rhinox, zeebu

[ElevenThirty]

Right
and chickadee was town
rhinox was the counterwagon to town
why isn't that scum indicative for rhinox?

[ElevenThirty]

I just wanted the three outside slots back in and I thought that it was still likely that it was just time gated

~ Pichu

I also thought this

The above post and this one are -Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

I claim conspiracy

good game everyone, the fake AF insomnia flip gave it away, sorry I saw through it but it was well played, you really had me and skitter thinking this was a real game of mafia for awhile

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

I claim conspiracy

good game everyone, the fake AF insomnia flip gave it away, sorry I saw through it but it was well played, you really had me and skitter thinking this was a real game of mafia for awhile

-Irrel

This was a joke, in case it wasn't clear
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Conspiracy

I think irrel's mental state has degraded from this game

but also yes

Im also really skeptical 1130 is town bc that would mean scum were off the second chickadee wagon entirely

Pedit: yes creature is. Idr how long it’s been since u last played with creature but w his new meta you townread him way too prematurely

why is YVG town over our slot?

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

Can we lynch someone like Creature today or do we have to deal with a 3P slot just in case?

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

A small part of me, and apparently a larger part of skitter, wonders if us/Old/YVG could all be town in a gamestate where Survivors toog and zeebu are helping achieve mislynches and scum have room to take turns on the mislynch wagons
That would have to be like a pisskop/rhinox/voted team though which I guess I probably don't really believe in atm

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

{mastina, wh4t, voted, zeebu, toogeloo, rhinox}

There's certainly at least one townie whose vote matters who has barely posted since d1. UNVOTE: because I think skitter left our vote on rhinox? And more sorting needs to happen before I'm ready to vote anyone really

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

I think the way YVG is unable/unwilling to account for the quickhammer and keeps coming up with new bad excuses while ignoring some of my questions on the subject is pretty scummy

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

Not to mention, you know, the quickhammer

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

I think the way Old Dogs insists us/YVG has to have a scum mirrors the "oh no YVG/Old Dogs has to have a scum" wide eyed moment I had upon seeing the chick flip in a way that might be towny
I still don't understand her read on rhinox and it's a real sticking point but I guess there are enough worlds where Old Dogs is right on rhinox and her way of getting there isn't AI. Waiting on rhinox to prove this right or wrong by play

I think pisskop's tunnel on wh4t is kinda scummy given wh4t wasn't on either mislynch wagon and is, if town, the lowest hanging fruit

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

Ank could be open wolfing. Im not discounting that

I think you could be tbh
I've seen you do it pretty well before

Talk to me about your reads on YVG and Old Dogs

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

I'd be very interested in hearing mastina

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=79344
I also misremembered you as scum in Nomination Mafia. Hmmm maybe I can read you..?

But yeah talk to me about Old Dogs' play

pedit: interesting. Are you talking about both of them? Re: "them working with me..."

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

ditto and ditto

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

Why wouldn't I be alive? Serious question.

Because we should have lynched you over chick

VOTE: 11:30 this is better. That push on me is so disingenuous. No sane scum team would kill lurking lynch bait over the active town players.

I agree. I was not expecting you to get NK'd. I was expressing annoyance that we haven't even wagoned you

Rhinox wagon was {YVG, pisskop, us}?
I guess that might be a reason to townread rhinox fypov but it's not a reason to clear him as groupscum imo. I could easily see {YVG/pisskop, Rhinox, wh4t} team for example

Yeah why tf is wh4t still alive actually

-Irrel

Help me bus him then

/s

This is beyond awful reasoning and terrible reads. We just had a obvious scum heavy wagon hence no counter and they're looking everywhere but.

Those aren't my reads, those are my response to Old Dogs about rhinox being clear

11:30 can effectively be BoP'd as scum at this point. Any resistance should be noted.

Why can we be BOP'd? Neither of us have a notable reputation for scumhunting.

I like everything from Rhinox, so I'll shut up about him not being clear.
Also so much for leaving for the day (@ old dogs and @ me )

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

we're affirming what we're doing with the survivors today. considering that the 3 missing slots are unlikely to be coming into the actual game i think there's only 3 scum which means tomorrow is lylo

I mean, yes, we need to figure out what to do with the 3p, but until that happens i want to put my vote somewhere useful

- skitter

[ElevenThirty]

rhinox is never groupscum because everyone who has scum equity pushed him and scum are not bussing in this gamestate

Not sure i agree with this analysis really

- skitter

[ElevenThirty]

they were obvtown, people are scared of flavor for whatever reason, they were off both wagons

it really really seems like a normal nightkill

no

it was a very odd nightkill

~ Pichu

Not really in that gamestate, why do u think it was odd

- skitter

[ElevenThirty]

I actually dont think that there has to be scum in yay/old dogs/us

[ElevenThirty]

Old dogs i really disagree with ur rhinox read

Ank is being bad but i dont really think it's scummy

[ElevenThirty]

Or target us with any other unimportant non-killing actions, it will allow us to take our very useful new night action

Hammering before Chick gets to post at all is annoying but also potentially pro town I guess

did anything happen with this then?

As far as i know, no, but i wouldnt necesarily be able to tell if something happened

[ElevenThirty]

i mean i guess rhinox could be distanced or whatever but i really feel like scum are trying their hardest to not bus, and im assuming thats because of either absurdly small or large numbers, with honestly 3 or 4 scum hits the criteria for both :/

I feel like they're in the quiet players and letting town destroy itself

I dont think this is a good reason to clear him at all

[ElevenThirty]

Not caught up yet, bbl

[ElevenThirty]

i mean if the goal is we're lynching groupscum today we always go for creature unless he towns

I dont have a problem with that, i just incidentally also think rhinox is scum, and would also like to express that, as well as the fact that i think you're clearing him for bad reasons

- skitter

[ElevenThirty]

Can we lynch someone like Creature today or do we have to deal with a 3P slot just in case?

-Irrel

I'd prefer to lynch toog over zeebu
- skitter

[ElevenThirty]

VOTE: Voted

No

Also, if rhinox ever does flip groupscum zeebu's groupscum equity goes way up imo

[ElevenThirty]

Why wouldn't I be alive? Serious question.

You do realize he meant in the sense of: why havent you been lynched yet
And not in the sense of: why havent you been nk'd yet

[ElevenThirty]

I think wh4t is town, relly pinged me a bit on that last page but not sure there yet, gonna need to consult with Pichu tonight probably.

VOTE: 11:30 for the moment, I may need to reread skitter's early game tonight to be sure of this but some pressure here is probably fine

-Pikachu

Ok lmk if u have anything u want to talk about

[ElevenThirty]

11:30 can effectively be BoP'd as scum at this point. Any resistance should be noted.

i agree theyre likely scum and skitter's reads have been uncharacteristically bad but im far far more confident in creature first

where are you with him?

I have bad reads sometimes. Not often, but sometimes

See mini 2082 as a recent example

[ElevenThirty]

Why can we be BOP'd? Neither of us have a notable reputation for scumhunting.

Ehhhh i do

[ElevenThirty]

By votecount 2.3, chick was up to 5 votes, I still had the same 2 votes on me. First 2 votes on the chick wagon? both voters from the creature wagon, led by old dogs (option 2 from your gamestate POE).

So for my "wagon" to be scum indicative of me then I'm scum with Creature AND Old dogs? or if Old dog's is town (noting that you were conversing as if both town at the time) then scum push on chick somewhere in the voted (consensus town) toog (survivor) 1130 (hmm?) zeebu (3p or town) range? is YVG scum with me for hammering to prevent my counterwagon from gaining steam?

I'm not sure i follow ur logic here

[ElevenThirty]

Why can we be BOP'd? Neither of us have a notable reputation for scumhunting.

Ehhhh i do

Neither of you are as bad as your current PoE.

If I have any specific reputation, I don't know what it is. It was at one point a rep for strong scumplay, but then I lost some scumgames. I have a good winrate as both alignments, but from my point of view the town winrate has more to do with more social parts of the game like building coalitions (I've won Coalition Mafia on D1 twice), sheeping the right players when I know they're strong scumhunters (e.g. RC, Shoshin), calling out bad reasoning for reads, etc.

I'm maybe also known for occasionally building strong scumcases, but iirc those are only actually on scum like 60% of the time (I've worked HARD to get townies lynched as town before, lol)
Speaking only for myself, and I'll vouch for this postgame, my impression of skitter is that she has above average reads, but occasionally tunnels town or townreads scum for personality reasons, and participates in mislynches when those things happen.

Anyway you're the first to ever suggest BoP'ing me and that just feels unfair because imo you can't. I'll back this up with meta later if you'd like. I don't know skitter's recent towngames well enough to know if you should be BoP'ing her, but our participation in chickadee's lynch was under my lead anyway

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

Also I'm discovering that skitter and I think about mafia really differently - like we understand each other's reads, but come away with very different game plans because I like fast and loose play that I try to corral into something solid later in the gameday and skitter prefers to follow her stronger reads for longer periods of time and while we enjoy playing games together we've already decided we're probably never hydra'ing again.

Btw the unsigned posts were skitter, not me

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

Oh also personally I don't scumread rhinox anymore, I just argued with Old Dogs because I didn't think Old Dogs should ever have used the word "clear" regarding the slot, because a single vca reason that can be manipulated by scum isn't enough for that word. It gave off informed vibes, and tbh still does. But I like rhinox for town currently, so skitter and I should probably talk I guess

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

Is anyone going to recognize that wh4t is trying to lead a push on us while wholly misrepresenting the meaning of my posts or is scumreading 1130 too popular to want to see that

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

I think wh4t is town, relly pinged me a bit on that last page but not sure there yet, gonna need to consult with Pichu tonight probably.

VOTE: 11:30 for the moment, I may need to reread skitter's early game tonight to be sure of this but some pressure here is probably fine

-Pikachu

wow I completely glossed over the fact that these aren't "pichu" posts

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

Is anyone going to recognize that wh4t is trying to lead a push on us while wholly misrepresenting the meaning of my posts or is scumreading 1130 too popular to want to see that

-Irrel

On the other hand does scum actually push someone because "I'm certainly not towny enough to get nightkilled, how dare you suggest I'm towny!"
Someone else weigh in please

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

I too am ignoring their posting style in favor of reading their content
what do you think about their content

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

how can we solve this game?

lol

[ElevenThirty]

Here's where I'm at, and skitter just agreed with most of it

Voted is town for matching his town game in terms of gambits/playstyle/tone
Rhinox is town for making a lot of sense to me this gameday, being strongly townread by others who wouldn't townread a scumpartner like that, and for his grumpy "ugh spamposters" style combined with a willingness to wade through the spam posting. Skitter is not sold, so this is the main difference between our reads
{Old dogs, YVG} has 1-2 town. Regardless of alignments, these two are very hard to lynch, so I'm not going to try rn.
{wh4t, Creature} has 1-2 scum. Both have crappy ISOs and Wh4t's push on us is entirely based on misrepresenting my posts. Creature is not trying.
pisskop remains very difficult to read.
mastina is unreadable except that I think her receiving a role in the same manner as us, and before us, is probably +town for her.
{toogeloo, zeebu} has 1-2 3Ps, and 0 town. Skitter wants to lynch toog if we're aiming for 3P today, I want to aim for zeebu. Both have "wow this proves they're not groupscum!" moments but I've leaned too heavily on those singular moments before and lost in lylo for it. Skitter thinks zeebu is less likely groupscum, but I think zeebu is more likely anti-town.

If there's anyone I'm missing (besides us), I have no thoughts on them and they should not go to lylo

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

skitter and I agree that Old Dogs scumreading us all game even though our PoE is consistently remarkably similar to hers and we've ultimately been on all the same lynch wagons is bad. Not necessarily scummy, but bad. Like I had not really considered Old Dogs as possible scum until this gameday and that's only because "yikes I'm certainly townreading a scum at this point based on chick flip". Doesn't make much sense to us that Old Dogs is basically just like "yeah we agree on everything but I'm JuSt NoT fEeLiNg It When I rEaD yOuR pOsTs" which is annoying

@old dogs I would still like to talk to titus if possible. Have you let her know?

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

Wh4t are you caught up?

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

Isn't "I'm not feeling your posts" a summary of forum based mafia

-pika

Sure I guess but it's starting to feel like there's nothing we could ever do to get townread by Old Dogs which is just incredibly frustrating because we both continue to think she's more likely town than not

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

Wh4t are you caught up?

-Irrel

Nope I just read people's pushes on me better than other interactions so I'm happy trying to get you lynched at this point.

Did you read the post where I pointed out that I was referring to my frustration we hadn't lynched you yet, not the fact that you weren't nightkilled?

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

And your read on rhinox?

pedit: excuse me I've used like two swear words on this site ever and talking about you isn't one of them

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

Rhinox wagon was {YVG, pisskop, us}?
I guess that might be a reason to townread rhinox fypov but it's not a reason to clear him as groupscum imo. I could easily see {YVG/pisskop, Rhinox, wh4t} team for example

Yeah why tf is wh4t still alive actually

-Irrel

Oh I guess I shouldn't assume you would know I meant "the frick"

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

I'm asking about your read on rhinox for a specific reason, explaining it to you would let scum!you know what I'm looking for, so I'll let you decide your read for yourself

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

A more townie response would be more attempts to engage me rather than "why the fuck is x still alive" at SOD.

I mean I posted "Hey wh4t come play this game" like three times before you entered this gameday, and other than tunneling YVG there wasn't much to your ISO I could have asked you about specifically iirc

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

Wh4t's push on us is entirely based on misrepresenting my posts.

Lies. You're lockscum my dears.

Your read on us is based on "Irrel's push on me is opportunistic and bad"
Your understanding of my push on you is "Irrel thinks I am scum because I wasn't nightkilled"
That wasn't the meaning of my post. So yes, your push on me is literally based on misrepresenting the things I said, as if I said something different

Wh4t are you caught up?

-Irrel

Nope I just read people's pushes on me better than other interactions so I'm happy trying to get you lynched at this point.

Did you read the post where I pointed out that I was referring to my frustration we hadn't lynched you yet, not the fact that you weren't nightkilled?

-Irrel

Why either way it's bad. You've been active and prominent enough to have brought it to people's attention earlier without this "frustration" act.

Why is it scummy for me to suggest that you would have been a better lynch than chick? You were fairly inactive up until recently, and you yourself suggest that "I'm not towny enough that scum would shoot me!"

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

every time I start a post today I get pulled in to work and come back to a few more pages to take in.

VCA:

Vorkuta

(8):

ElevenThirty

,

YAYVIDEOGAMES

,

Old Dogs

,

Toogeloo

,

Chickadee

,

pisskop

,

zeebu

,

Rhinox

Chickadee

(7):

Old Dogs

,

insomnia

,

Voted

,

Toogeloo

,

ElevenThirty

,

zeebu

,

YAYVIDEOGAMES

(sidenote: probably shouldn't have picked red but too lazy to change it :shrug:)

{1130, YVG, Old Dogs, and zeebu} + survivorloo core group on both lynches

{Mastina, Wh4t, Creature} on neither

Vorkuta Only: pisskop, (rhinox)
Chickadee Only: Voted

-From the both lynches category I agree with earlier posting that zeebu is likely either town or 3p but not group scum. survivor claim isn't much worth thinking about except when to PL since there doesn't appear to be a vig, but I think the lack of vig and the lack of any expressed doubt on toogaloo's claim (meaning there's probably not really any other survivors) makes it more likely than not he is as he claimed
-{1130, YVG, and Old dogs} on both lynches. I'd rank 1130>YVG>Old Dogs in likelihood of scum.

I don't have a stong case on 1130 but their reads don't seem to follow logical progression. 3 examples:
1) chickadee reads when from town, to nullish, to hard defending end of day to, to "hmm lets see who 3M suspected" (still can't let that one go but I probably jumped the gun calling it out), to ultimately ending up on the dee lynch wagon D2.
2) Insomnia read went from scum, to town, back to scum and calling out anybody who townread insomnia
3) went from calling me p. town soon after I replaced in to scumreading me for nothing stated more than YVG posting "I think Rhinox might be groupscum" and 1130 responds "ok this is interesting"
But I need to take recent information/softclaim into account

YVG I don't really have a case at all. Very hard to sort through, high noise to signal. applauds me for hammering vorkudo D1, comes out D2 voting me, then lolhammers chick D2. I was bad at reading chaotic playstyles even when I was in practice. I would vote here.

OD well I had town vibes early and just kinda kinda let that ride. Will iso at some point but still trusting my first impression.

Initially began the day thinking >1 scum from this group of 3 but their interaction this day is definitely not S:S:S and I don't even think it's even S:S:T now so 1 at most is where I'm at.

From the neither category: Any of the 3 could be scum there's just not enough information, other than POE that this is a group which likely contains scum. Likely 2 IMO.

1 or the other group: well I'm in it, and voted is obvtowned, and I need to reread PK but nothing has stuck out so far.

vote: wh4t

I'm going to try to keep up better this day. I have kids and a busy job (which is why I retired and haven't played in >4years) and the bad timing for day 2 starting (and ending) basically over the holiday is why my activity slowed down. I thought I'd give the game another chance but I can barely keep up with reading the multiple pages per hour game pace of today let alone contributing at that pace so if that's what's going to get me lynched just get on with it and let me fade away back into retirement then.

You feel good about this push on you, then?

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

Did Nero rep out?

Nero was a head of 3M, right? The N1 kill

Your read on us is based on "Irrel's push on me is opportunistic and bad"
Your understanding of my push on you is "Irrel thinks I am scum because I wasn't nightkilled"
That wasn't the meaning of my post. So yes, your push on me is literally based on misrepresenting the things I said, as if I said something different

Not really it's the fact that youre asking why I'm dead in such a disingenuous way.

what does this even mean? What's disingenuous about it?

pedit: Our slot hasn't even voted you this game day, your narrative about my actions regarding you literally just doesn't match with reality??

I scumread the lurkerslot, I'm very open about that. I'm not trying to make anything out of it. I am scumreading you for doubling down, and if you want the 1v1 I'm ready for it. I think Creature is like 95% scum and you're only approaching like the mid 80s% but keep it up I have no problem with you outing yourself by pushing me

pedit2: I'm keeping my tone intentionally very even keeled because in the small chance you're town I want to talk this out with you, inwardly I feel like you're becoming incredibly scummy with each passing post and your points about me are bullcrap, but you have spent 0 seconds trying to understand my posts for what they actually mean so I feel pretty confident I can drop the friendliness
VOTE: wh4t

-elephant

[ElevenThirty]

Oh My Gosh
U Suck!
-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

I don't like the way Rhinox damces around scumreading 11.30. I'm not sure what that means yet.

lol

pedit: lol

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

You townslipped? Tell me more

-Irrel

[ElevenThirty]

Oh shoot I'm late for a thing byw

rel

[ElevenThirty]

Your read on us is based on "Irrel's push on me is opportunistic and bad"
Your understanding of my push on you is "Irrel thinks I am scum because I wasn't nightkilled"
That wasn't the meaning of my post. So yes, your push on me is literally based on misrepresenting the things I said, as if I said something different

Not really it's the fact that youre asking why I'm dead in such a disingenuous way.

You realize that you're at best scumreading us for something you misunderstood and at worse for something that you're deliberately misrepping, right?

~ skitter

[ElevenThirty]

btw wh4t finally for making me not feel stupid for townreading you lmao, wish d2 wasnt cut short so i could have known earlier

i need you to explain exactly what you find townie about wh4t in the last couple of pages

~ skitter

[ElevenThirty]

not good enough

why is that exactly what you expect of her as town

[ElevenThirty]

again, you realize that the conviction is based on bullshit, right?

like in no way does it sound like they've actually thought about what they're saying there; they're just doubling down on nonsense when they got called out on it

[ElevenThirty]

like how does that read remotely genuine to you

[ElevenThirty]

like did you think anything they said there made sense or ... ?

[ElevenThirty]

A more townie response would be more attempts to engage me rather than "why the fuck is x still alive" at SOD.

like what is this ???

it's revisionist since irrel *did* try to engage them multiple times
and 'why is X still alive' is an *extremely* common phrase in mafia - it does not, like wh4t is alleging, imply tha we're wondering why they didn't get nk'd, he's saying he wants to know why wh4t hasn't been lynched

when this was pointed out to them they ignored us, repeatedly, and doubled down on what's at best a misunderstanding and at worst is a p glaring misrep

[ElevenThirty]

skitter is openwolfing

~ Pichu

explain

[ElevenThirty]

makes sense

no, it doesn't, given that it's based on something we didn't do

doesnt matter, you're still pushing on her?

yes, it does matter, explain what part of this doesn't matter


ok instead of going through this line by line

old dogs do you actually think irrel asked why wh4t didn't die?

nothing in that wall you made illustrated conviction, at best you indicated that you agreed with her

[ElevenThirty]

skitter is openwolfing

~ Pichu

explain

I don't believe for a second that your posting on this page is genuine

~ Pichu

strongly disagree, try again

explain why none of this is genuine

[ElevenThirty]

oh, sure, but we dont know when lylo is and we dont have a single scumflip. would rather take a 100% scumflip and no info than a 90% scumflip and info

also i think there's clear zzzx/1130 associatives anyway lol

show me where

[ElevenThirty]

katy

skitter is literally trying to shut you down because she NEEDS the wh4t mislynch

it's too dangerous to allow it to dissipate because that slot is under far too much pressure and creates too many obvtowns, it doesn't matter what her team is because that slot is always the biggest scum presence and losing that AS WELL AS obvtowning this many town slots can't be allowed to happen

she's not approaching this to try to convince you that wh4t is scum, she's trying to convince you that your reasons for townreading her are wrong.

THIS IS A SCUM MINDSET

~ Pichu

hey, remember anuket topaz?

where you scumread me for shutting down a chara push on me because getting scumread in that way gives me a certain sort of motivation to get *into* the game

it's the exact same thing here

and the kicker is that i'm incapable of posting like this as scum

and you should know this because we talked about it

and yeah i think that old dogs townread on wh4t is fucking awful, so yeah i'm pushing there

[ElevenThirty]

no, it doesn't, given that it's based on something we didn't do

Yeah why tf is wh4t still alive actually

it doesnt matter what this means precisely ("why the fuck hasnt wh4t been lynched" basically means "why the fuck hasnt wh4t been nightkilled" even if one implies that wh4t should be scummy or wh4t should be townie), you can still read into the intention of it being disingenuous.

and from wh4t's town pov it makes complete sense to feel that way

you're splitting hairs here and know it

pedit: yes i am aware, im worried about rhinox being on the lynch. there's still town incentive to talk here

what on earth is this

a) asking why someone hasn't been lynched is not at all the same thing as asking why someone hasn't been nk'd, since when are those remotely the same thing? i usually don't expect people who should be lynched to be viable nk's .... ?

b) why is this disingenuous

c) why does it make sense for wh4t to feel this way

[ElevenThirty]

also old dogs i need you to show me where you think wh4t exhibited conviction

[ElevenThirty]

honestly skitter

both my other heads are already convinced your slot is scum because pikachu caught something your hydra partner did that convinced them you were scum

when I really look at it, irre feels a lot more like he did in the cancelled chain of command than he did in port arthur

and I never really had that slimy feeling from your posting until just now with this push

I don't feel like it's the same thing at all.

~ Pichu

a) show me where your slot/your partner thinks irrel did something scummy
b) explain why this is slimy *for me*, given what you know of my playstyle, and not in same generic sense
c) explain why it isn't the same thing at all

[ElevenThirty]

and the kicker is that i'm incapable of posting like this as scum

and you should know this because we talked about it

ank explain

i guess skitter too

hi, i'm skitter, i have a really hard time faking aggression and real-time convos as scum

hank has played a bunch of games with me and i'm p sure we talked about this extensively in anuket topaz, and i'm p sure in the dead thread of skygazer's micro (? maybe? not sure about this one)

[ElevenThirty]

theyre not the same thing, but like the point of "why is this slot not gone yet" is the same?

yes, but we're fundementally talking about two different things:

wh4t is saying that it's scummy of us to imply that they should have been nk'd given their position in the gamestate (i'm not sure i even agree with this premise, but whatever, that's not the point)

irrel didn't say that. irrel didn't imply that either. his statement implied that he thought tehy should be wagoned - wh4t's scumread of us only makes sense in the context that they think we thought they should have been nk'd.

which is fine, except for the part where we explained multiple tiems that they misunderstood what they meant - and they're still pushing us for this. the most charitable explanation for what they're doing from my pov is that they're deliberatley ignoring us trying to explain why they're wrong, but it looks to me that they just doubled down on bs

the thing is, given that wh4t is obviously aware of their position of the gamestate, our statement *should* make sense to them in the context of asking why they haven't been lynched - they're aware that they're not in a position to be nk'd

also i feel liek you not understanding this is p awful because i'm not sure like what part of this is difficult or hard to understand

like the subtlety is the difference in *why* the slot is still here, and i feel like you're glossing over that part

[ElevenThirty]

it's not disingenuous of you to ask it's just like, it really doesnt change why wh4t would be suspect of your slot.

you just told me that disingnuousness could be read into the question

if you're telling me that, and want me to understand this from wh4t's pov, you need to explain how it can be read as being disingenuous

[ElevenThirty]

have you put yourself in her shoes yet?

i'm trying but since i'm obviously having difficulty why don't you help me and explain what i'm missing

[ElevenThirty]

you're aggressive...? and what are you faking here i feel like everything we're talking about is fairly objective

i don't know what you're trying to say here

[ElevenThirty]

sure, you lot have finally given me something i can use to get *into* the game and solve it

now answer my questions, ty

[ElevenThirty]

yep!

seriously never been better irl!

[ElevenThirty]

[ElevenThirty]

now, why are you asking that?

[ElevenThirty]

Your read on us is based on "Irrel's push on me is opportunistic and bad"
Your understanding of my push on you is "Irrel thinks I am scum because I wasn't nightkilled"
That wasn't the meaning of my post. So yes, your push on me is literally based on misrepresenting the things I said, as if I said something different

Not really it's the fact that youre asking why I'm dead in such a disingenuous way.

this is what i mean skitter. the *meaning* of the post doesn't matter, it's the *intention* behind it. does that make it a bit more clear? like, regardless of whether irrel meant that she's so townie she should be dead, or so scummy that she should be dead, she scumread the way irrelephant brought it up and its intention

why is the way he brought it up scummy or disingenuous

VOTE: 11:30 this is better. That push on me is so disingenuous.

No sane scum team would kill lurking lynch bait over the active town players.

they acknowledge that they're perceived as lurking lynch bait - why it scummy for irrel to question why they haven't been lynched yet in this context?

like the distinction *absolutely* matters here - given the fact that they recognize that they're playing in a scummy way i don't get why they'd find it odd that we'd question why the gamestate/town hasn't responded in a like fashion (i.e. by wagonign them)

like given the bolded our mindset *should* make sense to them, it doesn't make sense for them to push it as being disingenuous

[ElevenThirty]

the disingenuousness comes from the fact that wh4t outright said the above

i am saying that i dont sense aggression from you that you say you can't fake, and none of the questions here feel like they would be hard for scum to answer and that from a scum pov are easy to at least ask

nope, i'm v out of my scumrange here!

would not be able to have this convo as scum, would not be able to follow up like this as scum, would not be as ~frustrated.determined~ as scum (the second bit as a response to the last bit is what i mean by aggressive)

[ElevenThirty]

as far as i can tell the read looks coherent and i already explained why. i dont think the distinction matters because ultimately it's why it's being brought up that has pinged her, the question sure changes but it then just becomes "why should my slot be lynched now over someone who was on the wagon" instead, the push im pretty sure happens anyway

i absolutely think it matters, because that's when her push turned from 'hmmm i guess i can understand why someone might think that if that's why they actually thought irrel meant' to 'uh htey're doubling down on bs given that once it's been explained the whole underpinning of their push doesn't make sense'

im aware of neither your current scum or townrange to be honest, but giving you the benefit of the doubt here still says the play today is still creature today, your slot or ank tomorrow? we can talk about you and ank then i think

oh yeah, creature is def scum here
so is wh4t
and i am *not* finished with this because i think your defense of them is awful

i'm willing to drop it for this moment but we're going to circle back to this

[ElevenThirty]

now, why are you asking that?

because it's legitimately important to my read on you

it makes sense that you're playing this way if there's other stuff going on that's making you take it out on the game whether subconsciously or otherwise, and that would explain away my read just fine

but if that's not the case, then I don't really understand what exactly I'm supposed to be townreading you for; I've never once played with town!you and felt like I was being interrogated like I am here, you always felt like you were trying to start an actual debate to try to learn what I was thinking. I don't get that impression from your posts that you want to understand my thoughts as much as you want to... idk, break them? I've gotten that exact same impression from your pots to katy as well

it's really difficult to be able to dismiss even this subtle of a change in your approach when there's a perfectly valid reason to believe it's a scum-motivated change

~ Pichu

i'm kinda burned out on mafia, and i'm going on hiatus when my current games end, and i think my tolerance for what i perceive to be bs is p low right now

i think ur push on me just now is p bad given prior context, and that's when interrogation/aggression mode turned on
(and again, you've seen this before with chara in anuket topaz, and we talked about it there, and i can give you a link in a sec)

i'm trying to understand your thoughts, that's why i'm asking you to explain them
i felt like you (and old dogs too) were speaking in generalities and platitudes before, that's why i was drilling down because i'm trying to see if there's like anything substantive behind 'this is what i expect from wh4t as town'; 'they have conviction'; 'my partner thinks irrel did something scummy before'; 'you're being slimy'

like none of these things actually mean anything to me if i can't actually see what caused you to think that way - that's why i tried to do things like get you to show me where pikachu thought irrel was scummy -if youa ctually had that convo that should be p easy to link me, and if you didn't it would be a lot harder to make it up on the fly. like for all i know you just made it up; i'm trying to see if it's a legimiate thought process by asking you to show me your proof, so to speak

and again, you've seen this change in thought process before, from town!me, so saying it could well be a scum-motivated change feels p ridiculous to me

[ElevenThirty]

the disingenuousness comes from the fact that wh4t outright said the above

i am saying that i dont sense aggression from you that you say you can't fake, and none of the questions here feel like they would be hard for scum to answer and that from a scum pov are easy to at least ask

nope, i'm v out of my scumrange here!

would not be able to have this convo as scum, would not be able to follow up like this as scum, would not be as ~frustrated.determined~ as scum (the second bit as a response to the last bit is what i mean by aggressive)

posts like this I don't see naturally occuring to town!skitter

this is really similar to how nancy tries to pull me off of her when I catch her scumgame

~ Pichu

i don't think i've ever said anything like this as scum

i have said something like this *many* times as town

i know exactly where my scumrange is and when i've passed it and if i'm accused of being in my scumrange when i'm not i will say so

[ElevenThirty]

viewtopic.php?p=10775811#p10775811

@ank, @old dogs

[ElevenThirty]

i dont know what mastina's deal is and she should hardclaim today i think

I hardclaim as "started the game VT, someone changed my role D1, and presumably same someone changed it further D2 with an upgrade" and think that's as much as should be given until day before lylo.

This game with multiple 3p probably doesn't have four scum (18 players isn't enough for four scum + multiple 3ps), so I'd be willing to bet there's only three groupscum this game.

Let's say there's three groupscum and 2-3 3ps who can scumside; that places earlist lylo as 10pish which means the earliest day-before-lylo would be tomorrow, not today.

So, sure, I'll claim tomorrow to be on the safe side. See no point in it today and think it'd be counterproductive.

uhhhh are you saying that your role got change day2 too?

[ElevenThirty]

like a lot of the reason I didn't ever make a concentrated push on you all game despite having those constant nagging thoughts that you were scum snowing me was because the way you responded to it didn't feel like scum responses

this is like... exactly the opposite

~ Pichu

ok

again, given what you've seen of my scumgame, how does my play over the past few pages feel like scum responses

~ skitter

oh and i guess bonus question: how is this different than anuket

[ElevenThirty]

(Basically--I'm not saying that Old Dogs, 11:30, and Yayvideogames are

all

town. I could see there being one active scum in the game; I could see there being a power-player that is scum, arguing with the other power players that are town. But I just really REALLY think our best chance at lynching scum is to lynch outside of those three. So I'd vote any of pisskop/Rhinox/Creature/Wh4t and I feel like that grouping has a 50-75% chance at landing on scum which is far far far far FAR better than the ~17% max chance of the power players containing scum.)

this is like the most reasonable thing anyone's said tonight

[ElevenThirty]

i mean it's what ive been pushing for - look at my vote

i know you think im like hard scumreading you and 100% sure you're scum but im really not?

i mean you
a) are saying we should be lynched after creature
b) called me 90% scum
c) have been tunneled on me since ... p4 i think it was

idk how to describe intuition, skitter

~ Pichu

so the thing is that from my pov what you're saying is ????? because this looks literally nothing like any of my scumgames

[ElevenThirty]

i mean you
a) are saying we should be lynched after creature
b) called me 90% scum
c) have been tunneled on me since ... p4 i think it was

i mean yeah but 90% scum for me is really like 10% scum by normal people standards

im like never certain about my reads and it's why i let things like the chickadee ml happen. ive been persuaded to go against meta reads on people ive never been wrong on too. i dont tunnel, i just havent had a reason to townread your slot that would be appreciable to myself. if i were tunneling i would have never voted anywhere but your slot, and i dont tunnel players i know i cant read.

ok
i've def been feeling like your read of my has been stronger than you're describing here

i still really don't like ur townread of wh4t, it feels partner-y to me

[ElevenThirty]

That was a shitload of town power that game; this game we've got only my role and while I think my role's useful it aint gamebreakingly strong. It helps, but it can't be all we've got.

this isn't true and i want you to confirm that your role changed again day2

because uhhhh how many roles are going out each day ??? our role changed day2

[ElevenThirty]

maybe? we haven't upgraded

i'm also p sure we asked mastina to visit us last night (at least, me and irrel talked about it and i think he posted that, but maybe that didn't end up in thread)

mastina did just imply she thinks wh4t ought to have been wagoned so

[ElevenThirty]

We had previously been vt but it changed, like mastina claimed happened to her

My changes happened mid-day on both D1 and D2 tho.

My guess, different sources.

To be honest it wouldn't surprise me if scum are the ones gifting to me and you got a gift from either 3p or town.

Could be vice-versa of course.

I'm like 98% sure your gift and my gifts originate from different sources; I'm only about 50% sure they're different alignments (could both be town, but different town; could both be 3p, but different 3p; could be town and 3p; could be scum and town; could be scum and 3p; none of these are more likely to me than the other) and 0% sure which alignment is which. The only thing I'm pretty sure of is that your gift and my gifts aren't

both

from the scumteam since I don't think schadd forces scum to gift out two different types of gifts with different mechanics.

i'm p sure we got ours at like after chick got hammered/start of n2 (def not mid day 2)

ours is a weird thing for scum to give out unless it's compulsive, and i'm sure it could be, i suppose

idk why do you think yours came from scum?