BooneyToonz UPick: Boon There, Done That [END]

[davesaz]

I'm reading at the bottom of 4.
Rough RL day for me today.

[davesaz]

I voted Chronos because I decided that might be a decent place to put some pressure down based on the gif entrance

I voted Xtoxm originally because:
I accidentally quoted a post while making a point
I had no intention of expressing my reasons underlying the point
The quote, while not my reasons, could be seen as relevant to the point
So I voted Xtoxm because it sorta just made sense to do it and helped obfuscate things for content's sake

First post on the next page. This seems like an awful lot of explanation for such an early point in the game.
I'm 100% certain that I don't remember anything up to this due to that hard RL day so I'm going to need to re-read. But this caught my eye hard enough to mention it right now.

[davesaz]

If Vecna's role is correct he has to be town right?

What would be your reasoning on that?

[davesaz]

@Kakeguri: it is strongly my belief that alignment is not randomised prior to role creation, and that someone who wanted to be scum could influence role allocation by picking scum only roles for the Booneytoonz list, or quotes from players from games where they were scum, etc.

Your strong belief is wrong. Undivulged non-randomness is bastard. Alignment is assumed to be randomised.

Upicks are inherently non random.

UPick ROLES are inherently non-random, but this does not include alignment

What happens if someone picks Traitor, Framer, SK as their picks? How can they possibly end up town?

I agree with this.

[davesaz]

What's interesting it that nobody has ever given a shit about me explaining things in detail before. Because it's kinda dumb to think town!me isn't gonna give a full explanation for something when there os one and there's someone asking for an explanation, and there's no downside to me explaining it. I'd like those who think that post I made was weird to read it with context and explain why they think it's weird outside of this idea that I can explain my thought process.

Dave has played with me before. He doesn't get a free pass.
VOTE: davesaz

Interesting you vote me for something I noticed during catchup, but didn't refer to anyone else who made the same observation about it being a lot of explanation. It's also interesting to note that I specifically said that I didn't remember the context (and still don't). So you'd like to have it looked at in context -- fine, that's part of the plan anyway.

[davesaz]

If he was scum who could "cancerously millerize" town and neuter cops, why even claim it?

Although this is not a great argument, my spreading virus does in fact not tell the infected people what it does. Just that they have to spread it.

Sounds a lot like a survivor role. Does your wincon say a you win when a majority has it?

[davesaz]

This seems like an awful lot of explanation for such an early point in the game.

I'm impressed, there actually was a reason that 100 needed that much detail that early.

[davesaz]

This is different than a normal upick, because you usually get your flavor as your role. Here, I will use your picks to influence the design of your role, allowing for some extra depth.

I believe that Boon said right up front that he is influencing the design. In particular it's not a

normal

upick. I wouldn't put it past him to flaunt the definition of mod influence all the way to allowing the design to influence alignment. Yes it could be considered bastard by some, but he did kinda announce what he was doing.

[davesaz]

Doesn't mindless reading usually result in no retention regardless of content?

[davesaz]

Shallow work, no intricate hunting, and to go to such great extents to actually post it without a remote spark in her head going “this is too easy, is it really true?” + her making it sound confident is coming from scum more often than town.

A town wouldn’t have even bothered to post such nonsense. Let alone appearing as if they actually believed what they were saying.

Can you rephrase this? I read it three times and don't get it.

I figure this is the answer to a question, but I don't know what the question was.
So please also refer back to what you're answering. Thanks! (@Chronos)

[davesaz]

considering he is familiar with my play.

Not as familiar as you think I am.

[davesaz]

The thing that stood out most to him in catchup is something that other people already addressed far beyond its merit

Dude, I specifically said

it was the very first post I saw while catching up

.
I had, at that point in time, no idea if anyone else had commented on it.

[davesaz]

I'm reading at the bottom of 4.
Rough RL day for me today.

My dog had a seizure. My wife thought he was gonna die.
I read the last post on page 4, the first post on page 5, and posted 214.
JJH please connect a couple dots here.

[davesaz]

Like really, you're busting my chops for a post I thought 20 seconds about.

[davesaz]

Boooo no follow-up

If this was about 281 the very next thing I did was review the context of 100. 283 is the result.

our dog is mostly back to normal.
I have to go shopping. Feel free to ask some questions while I’m gone.

[davesaz]

Making a note that I'm at the bottom of 26 and thus extremely far behind.

[davesaz]

I'm reading from 43. If anything happened between my last stopping point and this starting point please let me know.
Worked a 10+ today plus other stuff. And it's almost bedtime so will I remember these 4 pages -- dunno...

[davesaz]

"catchup"

If you are questioning something I said about RL, you're making a huge mistake.
When I say it's a catchup, it's a catchup. Not open to discussion, airquotes, or any other type of shade. Ever.

[davesaz]

nothing in our roles should be unexplained

I have a line in my role that says something to the effect of "who knows what this means?".
<If I've accidentally typed the same thing as the PM does, it's not a copy/paste. I am trying to paraphrase without looking>

[davesaz]

If I drink I just fall asleep. Too fast to get on a website and post drunk. It's hell being old and a diabetic.

[davesaz]

Idk I see it as more scum a) don't really want to play the game so rl is more important and b) scum don't want to talk about the game

-K

I in particular have a shortage of time. I don't make this shit up. But it's town-ish to be concerned about it.

[davesaz]

I will say that Vecna has completely avoided posting anything more than a prodge since his wagon picked up and that's telling to me.

This is worth checking into.
I kinda wonder if Vecna would claim that role as scum precisely because scum wouldn't claim it.

Also wonder if the people who get the effect give it passively to anyone they target, instead of being compulsively forced to infect someone. Or maybe it's designed to nerf roles by making people think they have to avoid targeting.

[davesaz]

Tbh I need to go into more detail on the VCs.

Reminder that the d1 VCA in the last boon game pointed at someone who was town, and it clouded the game.

[davesaz]

Feel free to ask some questions while I’m gone.

what is your current today-lynch pool?

I missed this. Answer later.

[davesaz]

I will say that Vecna has completely avoided posting anything more than a prodge since his wagon picked up and that's telling to me.

This is worth checking into.
I kinda wonder if Vecna would claim that role as scum precisely because scum wouldn't claim it.

Also wonder if the people who get the effect give it passively to anyone they target, instead of being compulsively forced to infect someone. Or maybe it's designed to nerf roles by making people think they have to avoid targeting.

Well, the most interesting about his role, that so far nobody has mentioned, is that he received an extremely negative utility role in a uPick, so it kind of makes you wonder what role he actually requested. I got the exact role and flavour I asked for, obviously that wasn’t true for everyone but really how likely is it in a uPick, to get such an extremely negative town role?

I feel strongly that if someone submitted mostly scum stuff they will have a scum role.

[davesaz]

VOTE: Vecna
I keep thinking about how improbable it is that his role is town. I think a wagon here will be very revealing no matter who the day's lynch ends up being.

[davesaz]

Are you having difficulty understanding that I'm only actually here the few minutes around each time I post?
Of course the timing is "now" because "now" is when I'm here.

[davesaz]

Progression in case you missed it.

This is different than a normal upick, because you usually get your flavor as your role. Here, I will use your picks to influence the design of your role, allowing for some extra depth.

I believe that Boon said right up front that he is influencing the design. In particular it's not a

normal

upick. I wouldn't put it past him to flaunt the definition of mod influence all the way to allowing the design to influence alignment. Yes it could be considered bastard by some, but he did kinda announce what he was doing.

I will say that Vecna has completely avoided posting anything more than a prodge since his wagon picked up and that's telling to me.

This is worth checking into.
I kinda wonder if Vecna would claim that role as scum precisely because scum wouldn't claim it.

Also wonder if the people who get the effect give it passively to anyone they target, instead of being compulsively forced to infect someone. Or maybe it's designed to nerf roles by making people think they have to avoid targeting.

I will say that Vecna has completely avoided posting anything more than a prodge since his wagon picked up and that's telling to me.

This is worth checking into.
I kinda wonder if Vecna would claim that role as scum precisely because scum wouldn't claim it.

Also wonder if the people who get the effect give it passively to anyone they target, instead of being compulsively forced to infect someone. Or maybe it's designed to nerf roles by making people think they have to avoid targeting.

Well, the most interesting about his role, that so far nobody has mentioned, is that he received an extremely negative utility role in a uPick, so it kind of makes you wonder what role he actually requested. I got the exact role and flavour I asked for, obviously that wasn’t true for everyone but really how likely is it in a uPick, to get such an extremely negative town role?

I feel strongly that if someone submitted mostly scum stuff they will have a scum role.

VOTE: Vecna
I keep thinking about how improbable it is that his role is town. I think a wagon here will be very revealing no matter who the day's lynch ends up being.

[davesaz]

I keep thinking about how improbable it is that his role is town. I think a wagon here will be very revealing no matter who the day's lynch ends up being.

Translation, in more blunt terms for anyone who has trouble with educated forms of speech.

He's scum. The role is unlikely to be town.

Even if y'all don't agree and we don't lynch him, I think the wagon will yield good info.

Two thoughts. Both are consistent.
Try again...

[davesaz]

To all of the people who aren’t concerned about Vecna’s role nor his lack of further commentary on it, how do you think the negative utility aspect of it, will be balanced?

Town KP to compensate for faulty investigative results

What do you mean by this?

[davesaz]

What % of people got what they asked for?

~Venus

100%

[davesaz]

Scum getting it and spreading it wont really be a risk. at max two town will get it, and they can keep infecting eachother.

This implies you know people's alignments.

[davesaz]

no it doesnt. It implies that even if they I infect scum, and they dont claim it, whoever they spread it to the next night can claim it and spread it to the other persons.

Ill give davesaz some special attention, because that last post just sounded likes hes already made up his mind and is just looking for justification.

Nope, seeing if you'll give a right answer.

How do we handle the case where you infect scum but aren't alive to identify who the missing claimant is? Can that scum then give it to everyone else? Is it safe to assume that generation 2 recipients won't know who they were infected by, only that they were infected?

Is it obvious to you what pick you submitted to yield this as a role?

[davesaz]

Is it obvious to you what pick you submitted to yield this as a role?

Why would this be relevant?

As I've said (but you may not have read) it seems obvious that the mod chose role and alignment based on the picks.

[davesaz]

Please stop fucking fishing for the rest of my role.

Absolutely not my intent.
I got all 3 of my picks worked into my role, and if I reveal anything it will be one by one.
I just asked if the infection thing came from one of the picks. Nothing more than that.

Pedit: I have info from the mod that implies heavy mod-related wifom potential. What that means is anyone's guess. It's almost like he's baiting

me

to use the wifom.

Pedit2: First pedit was in response to Vecna post that it wasn't in the role pm.

UNVOTE:
No longer thinking that the virus is the main part of the role, and the last however many pages look townie to me.

[davesaz]

Why do you no longer think that the virus isn’t the main part of the role? Can you explain it to me?

Vecna claims it's minor compared to the rest. Looking at my role this is believable. Not that I have anything virus-like, but that complexity seems to be likely.

[davesaz]

1563 was posted without reading the next page, for the record.

[davesaz]

Titus, does your ability

add

a modifier, or

replace the modifier(s)

? Important to know this. As in the last game, multiple conflicting modifiers can completely silence a role.

[davesaz]

Oh hey my important question topped a page.

[davesaz]

Do you also give the items?

[davesaz]

So assuming 1 from Beau and 1 from Theb.

Any thoughts on whether this might be a day ability instead of coming from the mod?

Titus, are you limited in terms of number of items?

[davesaz]

At the top of page 63. Will catch up on rest later.

This is the best place I can see right now to place my vote:

VOTE: Davesaz

You were obviously in that game and there's like maybe 4 people you can be

-Cosmic

If you read 1540 and think I'm scum then...

VOTE: Conspire

[davesaz]

Why should I think you're town for backing down on a read which got you pushed by a couple of other people?

Why did you decide to vote us over the other people on your wagon?

This should not need explanation.
IDGAF about being "pushed".
I had a conversation with Vecna and changed my mind.
You came in after seeing that conversation. SR me for that is fake, where earlier suspicions were misguided but reasonable given how my lack of time to play made it look.

[davesaz]

Do you enjoy playing scum or town more, Dave?

Town without question. I've only had one successful scum game.

[davesaz]

Why can't scum!you simply backtrack on a read that was getting you scumread? I fail to understand why you expect me to think you're town for 1540.

The conversation between Vecna and me shows that I didn't simply backtrack. 1540 refers to that conversation, does it not?
There are other obvious reasons to TR me but I'm focusing right now on how you're trying to turn an evolving read into a scum motivation.

One thing I'll remind everyone of, I work sometimes 10+ hour days, and I'm west coast US. This naturally means that almost everything I do comes after someone else, except in the rare case where work isn't busy and I get an opportunity to read/post.

[davesaz]

I'm saying that whatever gave items out did so as an action that resolves at the halfway mark on the day.

I agree it's likely an action. Dunno if it's halfway by design or coincidence. Don't take this as rolefishing, but what's your confidence level on both points, that it's an action and that it's mid-day specifically?

[davesaz]

dont read whole game

read dave iso and tell me whatchu thunk

I was going to say that his posting since I repped in has been uninspired and I disagree with the alignment tied to role stuff.

But he specifically town-told in his iso.

Can you be more specific about what you mean by the alignment tied to role stuff? General discussion of that or specific instance?

[davesaz]

Gonna be honest, I have no idea how my pick relates to my role

If it means anything, I can say it contains the squiggles even though it's not the squiggles or related to them

I think it would be quite a challenge to interpret those picks. My comment on roles+alignments coming from the picks is based on my much more straightforward picks, as in the words translated more or less exactly to the role itself.

[davesaz]

Followup question: should we interpret that to mean that you were unconcerned about your alignment/role and wanted to give Boon free reign?
I don't think it's indicative of anything but style, just curious.

[davesaz]

Umm, uncomfortable.

As a bystander I see a huge disconnect here. I saw a huge disconnect in the last game too. I'm willing to discuss privately what actually happened in both cases from the outside looking in, at a time that we're not in an ongoing game. Feel free to PM if you want to hear my perspective. I don't know if it will help, because it's a head vs heart type thing, but still want to offer.

[davesaz]

Nancy, the 60's and 70's had certain phrases that sound horrible when taken literally but mean something quite different. Similar things happen when translating between languages.

[davesaz]

You know who I'm actually getting concerned about? KA. Eight posts in nine days is fucking abysmal. nomnomnom's ISO leaves a hell of a lot to be desired as well, especially considering all the promises to catch up with zero fucking follow through. At least dave is trying.

I agree with this.

KA posting didn't seem necessarily bad as I was seeing it (that part of it that I can remember) but I think it's pretty underwhelming in general and not just volume.
I think nomnom had a lot more fight in TM. I do not have a scumgame to compare with.

[davesaz]

Why should I think you're town for backing down on a read which got you pushed by a couple of other people?

Why did you decide to vote us over the other people on your wagon?

This should not need explanation.
IDGAF about being "pushed".
I had a conversation with Vecna and changed my mind.
You came in after seeing that conversation. SR me for that is fake, where earlier suspicions were misguided but reasonable given how my lack of time to play made it look.

In reply to whomever it was that called my Conspire vote OMGUS. No, it's an actual SR. I think their SR on me is fake.

[davesaz]

Scumgame link: click

[davesaz]

You know who I'm actually getting concerned about? KA. Eight posts in nine days is fucking abysmal. nomnomnom's ISO leaves a hell of a lot to be desired as well, especially considering all the promises to catch up with zero fucking follow through. At least dave is trying.

I agree with this.

KA posting didn't seem necessarily bad as I was seeing it (that part of it that I can remember) but I think it's pretty underwhelming in general and not just volume.
I think nomnom had a lot more fight in TM. I do not have a scumgame to compare with.

I'm gonna retract this, must have been thinking about someone else.
chkflip, did you actually read and process KA's posts? Have you gone back to read them, or did you go by the activity list?

[davesaz]

I have info from the mod that implies heavy mod-related wifom potential. What that means is anyone's guess. It's almost like he's baiting me to use the wifom.

Something happened and a SECRET ROLE POWER was activated

Confirming this is one of the things the mod told me. I think it's reasonable to accept that BTE did not have a choice other than selecting who would receive the items.

[davesaz]

Actually, for those who sent the barbs, can you tell me who you targetted? Because - hard claim - I have a role where I get to reward my tr but I can only do that during the day and the players I selected need to live until at least the following day or my actions would all be for naught.

So, if any of the players I selected were targeted, then I need to pm Boon before day’s end and change those selections.

BTE sent the 3 barbs. The people you saw were claiming receiving them. I'm neither sender nor receiver, was just confirming it was a secret thing that got activated.

[davesaz]

my first posts are never serious posts and there is a switch on period to my game before I even approach solving

This could be why I have trouble reading you, fwiw.

[davesaz]

As far as I can tell RCE was the only one who didn't TR you anyway. Though keeping track I have not been so could be wrong.

[davesaz]

I'm not sure why hardclaiming it was necessary. The barb recipients were all identified if you were paying attention.
The concern about claiming endangering your TRs is valid but short-sighted/shallow. I doubt it will have much effect, other than to have painted a target on yourself.

The role by itself doesn't conftown you. There is no reason the role must be restricted to town. I think the role is town more likely than not. It's not inconceivable that someone could doubt.

[davesaz]

I think Titus is likely town. I have had success in scumreading her in the past and tend to keep a close watch.
The Fonz doesn't seem much different from recent town games. Would like to know how he got into the red. Can't remember if I've seen him as scum.
Did Conspire fade when I fought back against their awful attempt at casing me? Worth looking at.
I don't remember seeing any of the fire from nomnom that showed up in TM. Definitely worth serious pressure.
Kakeguri Addicts had a couple of posts that I thought seemed ok. Scum!them could have put in extra effort to look townie. Very weak TR and needs to be paid attention to in any case.

[davesaz]

So assuming there's a bo

o

nus round and it's random except for your picks, it's not like it's necessarily the end of the world right? You're making an assumption that your picks are golden.
I don't like panic reactions when unnecessary.

[davesaz]

I TR V&M by play so it's not a fence sit at all.
I'd kinda like to not have pages of this. Every extra page adds layers to the stuff that town needs to dig through to find scum.

[davesaz]

Why should I think you're town for backing down on a read which got you pushed by a couple of other people?

Why did you decide to vote us over the other people on your wagon?

This should not need explanation.
IDGAF about being "pushed".
I had a conversation with Vecna and changed my mind.
You came in after seeing that conversation. SR me for that is fake, where earlier suspicions were misguided but reasonable given how my lack of time to play made it look.

In reply to whomever it was that called my Conspire vote OMGUS. No, it's an actual SR. I think their SR on me is fake.

Could you address again why you're tresting us differently to the other people on your wagon? As far as I can tell, many see what we're seeing with regards to your psots. What do you see differently about our scumread?

-Cosmic

You specifically called out my change of read on Vecna which was patently not scummy, and kept on despite the explanation/proof that it was an evolution and not related at all to timing. That's enough for a scumread that can be directly acted upon.

[davesaz]

Yeah, I'm feeling less confident on

Dave

too, but I have another question for him: Pregame, what impression did you have of how picks would work? That they would affect alignment/role, or both?

VOTE: GeorgeBailey

-Cosmic

I did not expect alignment to be crafted from the picks, pre-game. Info I have from Boon indicates that alignment and role were both hand crafted. Whether that helps or not is suspect, because Boon is also telling me that whether or not to make anything of the wifom is up to me. AKA typical Boon.

[davesaz]

What is animal crossing?

[davesaz]

A whole string of posts in a row on the topic of coaching is really unnecessary. Once you've replied to one of them, the rest of the replies are just padding your and the game's post count.
Same pretty much goes for any subject.

[davesaz]

VOTE: George Bailey
Seeing what this will do.

[davesaz]

{jjh, nomnomnom, Davesaz} seem like a bloc of people conveniently just townreading each other without any solid reasons.

Incorrect. I don't TR nom and don't have a strong read on jjh.

BTW I accomplished what I wanted to with the vote, which was to make the thread talk about something else other than chk/V&M argument.
Continuing catchup, think I have something like 7 pages to go.

[davesaz]

I have extremely good reason to believe what BTE said about his role, is true.

Which thing do you think is true?

[davesaz]

Making a note that I stopped bottom of 99 since the "new post" thing will have been reset.

[davesaz]

the woats in that game

I really think you need to tone down your use of woat. How about "bad town" or something.

[davesaz]

End of 100. I was too optimistic about chk vs Nancy slowing down.

[davesaz]

I think Nomo is town. Waiting on their answers, but I want to lynch one of George/Dave. Might have to reexamine JJH later since I kinda just forgot about him.

-Cosmic

Strange, you just called me town a few of your posts ago.

[davesaz]

VOTE: Nomnomnom

Choo choo

Very similar to my George vote, in case anyone pays attention to such things.

[davesaz]

Someone remind me which hydra has ducky.

[davesaz]

Yeah, I'm feeling less confident on

Dave

too, but I have another question for him: Pregame, what impression did you have of how picks would work? That they would affect alignment/role, or both?

VOTE: GeorgeBailey

-Cosmic

I did not expect alignment to be crafted from the picks, pre-game. Info I have from Boon indicates that alignment and role were both hand crafted. Whether that helps or not is suspect, because Boon is also telling me that whether or not to make anything of the wifom is up to me. AKA typical Boon.

Sure, I've liked your tone and I think you being more outspoken and not caring how your posts come across as is town-indicative.

VOTE: GeorgeBailey

It's more posts back than I thought.

[davesaz]

2046 2072 2258 2259 are all addressing things that Conspire asked, though 2046 comes before the question.
Fonz, are you sure you're reading carefully?

[davesaz]

{jjh, nomnomnom, Davesaz} seem like a bloc of people conveniently just townreading each other without any solid reasons.

Incorrect. I don't TR nom and don't have a strong read on jjh.

BTW I accomplished what I wanted to with the vote, which was to make the thread talk about something else other than chk/V&M argument.
Continuing catchup, think I have something like 7 pages to go.

[davesaz]

I don't know who the heads of Conspire are, but would assume they have played with me rarely if ever.

[davesaz]

I don't know who the heads of Conspire are, but would assume they have played with me rarely if ever.

What makes you say this? Are you normally like this as town?

-Cosmic

I don't think I'm playing any differently then normal.
Question for you -- what do you mean by "like this"?

[davesaz]

I had some time to re-read KA. Lots of opportunistic stuff there responding to individual posts but basically no coherent analysis and not looking around to get context.

[davesaz]

VOTE: Kakeguri Addicts

Even though they only have 12 posts, there is actually enough material to get weak associatives from. As I said in an earlier post it's all reactions to individual posts without a thread or any context.

Conspire, Michael Scott, Chronos look like a good group to join me as a strong solving core.

A good place for a ducky is sore feet. Kinda wish we were getting a bit more from them though.

Titus and Vecna made claims and need to do their thing and show us some stuff.

I feel that chkflip and V&M are likely town by meta. They need time and space. In particular V&M's choices can tell us a lot later. I won't go into much detail since it's a mech thing and if scumz happen to be weak I prefer not to help them any more than what's unavoidable.

I need to remember that Krazy Katz claimed miller.

I feel one of two things is true about BTE's super secret barb thing. If BTE is scum then the barbs have potential to help town. If BTE is town then it's next to impossible to guess what will happen.

nomnom, George Baily, Fonz, and JJH are pretty weak reads atm. I don't think I'll have a firm handle on them for quite a while.

[davesaz]

Is someone salty about it or something?

[davesaz]

I'm also a N1 suicidal cop (can't mention d1 or would die). Got a no result on my target. I'm gonna hold back on ID for a bit to see if conversation reveals why.
Did sore feet receive anything other than a sticky fruit?
I also got a sticky fruit.

Titus are you limited in how many items you can modify a night? How about number of items you can give?

Best move for town is to give all the SF to the same person so that other abilities are allowed to be targeted on everyone else. As it sits now most of us are untargetable by anything but kills, if the sticky fruit is the standard variety.

Someone apparently submitted N-split as a pick, and probably sticky fruit too. If town did this they were not being very smart at all. I'm betting it's scum. Unless Boon just showered us with fruit as a non-ability mechanic or something.

[davesaz]

I'm gonna be rolling on the floor laughing if all these items result in the game being role madness but every role disabled so it's really mountainous.

[davesaz]

Actually, maybe a hypothetical town player wasn't being bad with the SF. If it's compulsive to use and split all the shots then maybe it's just taking lemons and making lemonade.

[davesaz]

I'm not keeping this virus, nor am I passing it to KK.

If KK was the other recipient (have not been keeping track) then this would be tantamount to a scum claim.
You will not infect anyone else. There is good reason to leave a few people as possible millerized.

[davesaz]

@mod: is giving someone an item an "action" for the purpose of sticky fruit?

[davesaz]

It didn't millerize me, it basically made me VT by x-day in the game.

I'm not fucking keeping it.

If I can use it to gank another scum after we lynch scum!Titus that's a positive for town.

If you’re talking about the virus that conflicts with vecna flip.

[davesaz]

We had a lengthy discussion yesterday about limiting the damage from negative effects by having the two recipients pass it back and forth.
You're welcome to try to convince me that the upside of an alternative idea is better than the downside of possibly nerfing more town roles.

[davesaz]

OK this is gonna need an ongoing claim list. Maybe tomorrow unless someone builds one before then.

[davesaz]

Let's not lynch until we have full info, or at least what people are willing to give, for the following:

All recipients of sticky fruit
All N1 suicidal cops and result (target may or may not be needed, I have reserved identity of mine for now in hopes of finding a discrepancy)
Location of barbs and viruses (I think this is already confirmed but wanna be sure)
Any other items held that people are willing to disclose (we know about an elephant right?)

[davesaz]

Depending on how many stickies there are, we might be stuck with them.
If the answer to my question is yes, sticky fruit holders are immune to being given an item.
Oh God that's an action resolution nightmare. Maybe it does resolve to mountainous.

chkflip, I join these games because I hate vanilla/mountainous with a passion. Afraid isn't exactly right, just don't like.

[davesaz]

I got a sticky fruit and a different thing that nobody has said yet

This indicates the possibility of redirection. Which would be quackers if true.

[davesaz]

the night they receive the fruit.

Oh, maybe it's not a revert to mountainous thing then. Nobody gives their fruit, everyone's temporary ascetic goes away. If the fruit in this game matches the quoted.
Regarding the rest of the quoted post, IIRC I was just informed I received one with nothing stated about passing it on etc.

[davesaz]

Does it? There could just be quite a lot of things. It's two words, first has two vowels, second has one.

You're right that there could be a plethora of items in the game. There is already an explanation that doesn't require redirection.

Using vowel counts is tricky given there is a letter that sometimes counts as one and sometimes doesn't. And depends on whether you're talking about the number of vowels that appear or the number of letters that are vowels.

[davesaz]

So we had a bunch of n1 cops. If it's anything like mine, it was tacked on to another totally serviceable role.
I retract my earlier allegation, I think mechanically the vendor makes more sense as town. That's not going to give said vendor a free pass.

You have a bunch of cops, and a bunch of fruit. If the fruit lands on scum it nerfs cops who check that player. If vendor somehow doesn't vend a scum, and a cop happens to check that player, then you get a guilty. So it's fundamentally a percentage cop once you strip off all the extra layers. p(fruit misses scum) * p(cop checks scum).

It also makes n1 complete chaos for the rest of the roles, but that's kinda the definition of a Boon game.

[davesaz]

I thought jjh was just crumbing the second item he received.

Yeah that was pretty obvious.

Aren't "number of vowels" and "number of letters that are vowels" the same though?

No, "Mississippi" is an example of a word that has 1 unique vowel with 4 instances.

[davesaz]

Why would the Vendor not SF all scum, given the chance they're copped?

That's why the vendor is most likely town.

[davesaz]

Eh, like I said redirection wasn't necessary to explain what happened anyway. But it's good to know and I see JJH's handling of the item as town-motivated.

[davesaz]

When I say my entire role, here's the fucking KICKER.

I'M A FUCKING SURVIVOR BY DAY X.

Oh, huh. If you die before that you stay town and win with town?

[davesaz]

Hopefully that isn't just a straight up poisoner type thing and we're looking at additional bodies tomorrow.
Though if they're scum then sure.

[davesaz]

An “N-split”?

N-shot split foo.
You have N shots, of which you can use a maximum of K a night. If you use more than one shot the targets must be split, meaning no multiple shots at the same target.

Subsequent discussion showed that the sticky fruit vendor role just showered fruit on everyone. Or that's what was claimed.

[davesaz]

the night they receive the fruit.

Oh, maybe it's not a revert to mountainous thing then. Nobody gives their fruit, everyone's temporary ascetic goes away. If the fruit in this game matches the quoted.
Regarding the rest of the quoted post, IIRC I was just informed I received one with nothing stated about passing it on etc.

That’s really strange. Are you and jjh the only ones, who don’t have that as part in your role pm?

I don't get this question. The posts you're quoting aren't about role pms.

[davesaz]

So a full alignment change? Wow.

@Boon, how is that not bastard?

It is bastard, and Boon said he should have changed the answer to that question before the game started.

[davesaz]

The reason I mentioned it being a resolution nightmare is the question of whether they all resolve simultaneously (and recipient ends up with more than one) or sequentially (thus recipient can only get one and the rest fail).

If we have a loyal / disloyal, doc or other protective, any other form of investigative -- receiving a sticky fruit makes you ascetic for that night.
I TR (some of) the people who want them, but perhaps you shouldn't want them. The only town benefit I can think of for receiving one is you can't be RB.
If we just hold the SF, and the "that night only" mechanic is in place, then all the ascetics evaporate and normal play can resume.

[davesaz]

I think Titus's role is a trap. It's probably a true claim but designed to trap town into not believing it can be scum.
I think we have a 1 out of 3 here in any case. At least one of Titus, KK, and nom are scum. Possibly two. If all 3 are town then the game is even more messed up than we thought.

Titus overstating a role's importance seems less likely to be genuine tbh.

[davesaz]

Also, I think boon basically inadvertently confirmed chkflp and I won’t be lynching there without a drastic change in gamestate.

How did Boon confirm chkflip? You think Boon would have a different response if Chk was Scum?

Boon essentially admitted to the possibility of bastard elements. It's true that we don't know if what chk claimed is indeed that element or not.

[davesaz]

I'm waiting on a VC, and perhaps get a bit more agreement on how to handle the SF.

[davesaz]

I'd suggest keeping it, unless passing it along is mandatory. They won't have any effect after the 1st night, if standard sticky fruit.
I don't recall being told it had to be passed along. Guess I could re-read that PM.

[davesaz]

I also received a sticky fruit.

I copp'd Nom last night and got nothing.

So I trust her.

Context is everything. Though I did not look at the timestamps, reminding myself to do that too.

I agree with questioning the unvote as being a reason for a TR there.
Scum Titus is experienced enough to use the situation to try to lay down negative associations with a partner. I have not looked at where those posts are in relation to the guilty, reminder to myself to check the timing.

[davesaz]

Actually 40 seconds on those posts. That's actually a bit incriminating for George to mentally make the connection between the sticky fruit and no result that fast.

[davesaz]

That part of my comment was about Titus's posts, not George's.

[davesaz]

Please give very much effort on staying safe!

[davesaz]

Scum Titus is experienced enough to use the situation to try to lay down negative associations with a partner.

I don't think George voting that fast and then unvoting awkwardly would be a Titus neg-associative plan.

What if it was a "there's a guilty" bus followed by the realisation that mechanics in this game are fucky and he might not have to bus?

So I was feeling this too. Is there some reason that we're dropping it?

VOTE: George Bailey

[davesaz]

Real disappointed you're going for low-hanging fruit, dave.

Why do you think it's low-hanging fruit?

[davesaz]

Why Chronos at all? I hard TR them, putting them in my town solving core. Did I miss something bad happening since that point?

[davesaz]

I could really use a recap of everyone who has received the virus.

[davesaz]

I don't think any SF should be given. Giving a SF makes the recipient ascetic for that night, and if there are roles that can get useful results we really need there to be no interference.

[davesaz]

George is fucking lynchbait.

Why else does a flailing scum attach themselves so eagerly to an unvote? Are you seriously implying that she thought her only thread of hope was to bus a teammate?

I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

[davesaz]

At the time of the "scummy unvote" Titus was literally latching to anything and everything around to save herself, including pointing out and making sure that each and every one of us saw the "scummy unvote." Titus was hoping to spearhead and change in the tide for survival.

Your votes there tell me that you think Titus, in the middle of being lockscum from a cop claim, pointed and re-pointed and re-re-pointed out an error... from one of her teammates... for what? "Town cred" because she knew their role would flip mafia too?

Nothing about that was a fucking bus.

George is lynchbait.

Show me where you think she’s pointing it out.

Reverse the psychology. If she wants to be sure you will ignore it what should she do?

[davesaz]

Actually 40 seconds on those posts. That's actually a bit incriminating for George to mentally make the connection between the sticky fruit and no result that fast.

[davesaz]

You’re welcome to your opinion.
Is there a rce case?

[davesaz]

"show me where she's pointing it out"
> post 5 times it happened
"cool story bro tell it again"

Is this real life right now?

How does Titus posting like that clear George? You seem to be assuming she actually wanted to, and more importantly expected to be able to deflect the lynch at that point. Why aren't you considering the possibility that Titus tried to spew a partner town by creating associations that "scum wouldn't want to make". I think she's trying to remove attention from the unvote precisely by bringing attention to it. Because if it's her attention and nobody else's then it has to be fake, right?

[davesaz]

RCE is L-2 with no fucking case on him whatsoever.

That's a problem.

VOTE: jjh927

I'll sheep this.

Be interesting to look at chkflip's jjh read before this.

[davesaz]

All of the other wagons are counterwagons to George.
If George were bleeding town somehow this wouldn't bother me. He's not, so it does.

[davesaz]

Speaking of V&M why haven't we been asking about how they're making bonus game picks? More so, why haven't they been bringing it up themselves?
I thought that was a central part of Nancy's reason she couldn't be scum.

[davesaz]

I think nancy thought her boonus rooms would be much more obviously protown than they actually are; not sure if boon basically lies to scum about what their role does?

-K

Does it matter that much what the effects are? Influencing who are in the rooms benefits one team over the other regardless of the room's effect.

[davesaz]

I'm also not defending George here. I'm merely pointing out that you're putting way too much weight on Titus' scum game by assuming her actions were anything more than flailing and deflection. Period.

My George read actually has 0 to do with Titus posting. I'm only responding to your defense of George by saying that Titus's posting can't be s/s.
It's strictly the vote that totally looks like a bus, and the 40 second gap between nom saying she got a SF and George saying he trusts nom because of not getting a result on nom.

[davesaz]

I townread him D1. Your point?

What changed your mind? It seemed kinda abrupt.

[davesaz]

Reads change, bud. And rn I at least like what BEF is trying to do more than what anybody else is trying to do.

Yes, reads do change. Does that mean that it's mostly just a sheep and not your own? I'm asking because I want to know if there is something specific I should look at in re-evaluating JJH.

[davesaz]

Actually, it is kind of concerning how everyone is ok with RCE getting lynched while he isn’t even here.

Got a question for you -- who started the RCE wagon and why?

[davesaz]

what BEF is trying to do

Don't think BEF is listed in the player list. Who is this you're referring to?

[davesaz]

What's really strange is how quiet y'all have collectively become.

We've just had 2-3 pages of activity, wtf is this?

Please tell me what you think BTE is trying to do that's so good.

[davesaz]

Chronos and RCE are the only players to not post in the last 24 hours, unless I've missed something.

[davesaz]

Dave being much lazier than usual

This is more than baffling to me. What exactly is lazy about trying to have conversations with almost everyone who is posting?

[davesaz]

another reason to mc and get the ball rolling on a mech solve

No, you don't MC until

after

a bunch of actions. MC prematurely allows scum to prepare answers that they shouldn't have, or sidestep actions. And I wouldn't put the chances high of having even a single vanilla player. There may be significant gates like non-consecutive, even/odd, or blockers like the sticky fruit, but I'd bet every single one of us has some form of action.

[davesaz]

I mean more you seem inattentive. There's been like two or three times where you've missed like bef outing his main, asking one or two other kinda basic questions that could get answered by rereading

so not lazy but like, missing some things that I'd expect you to notice

The "who is BEF" bit? I prefer people to be referred to by the name they're playing the game by. You can look at a few of my very early games on site if you want evidence.

[davesaz]

BTE is using wagon analysis to move the game forward

If the so-called wagon analysis gives answers that are implausible, it's rubbish.
That might just be me being offended that missing a wagon I've clearly said I'm willing to join puts me in a POE.

[davesaz]

I'm waiting on a VC, and

perhaps get a bit more agreement on how to handle the SF.

Read between the lines.

[davesaz]

@chk, what's with the bud thing btw. Haven't been rude to anyone today so I'm your chance?

[davesaz]

Titus's reaction to nom's guilty might suggest bte/titus not same pt, if bte is not town I'd expect traitor/3p rather than groupscum

-K

This is the kind of dense writing thing that causes me in trouble in my technical writing sometimes in RL.
I'll break it down to see if my interpretation is right.

If Titus and BTE were groupscum together, Titus should know that a SF is coming, and therefore be better prepared to handle a guilty by saying right up front "nuh huh, SF so you're lying". Since Titus didn't seem to be prepared to handle the guilty with a SF argument, she presumably didn't know that there was SF, therefore BTE can't be groupscum.

There is an inherent assumption here, that BTE is telling the truth that SF go to everyone. We're also making an assumption that barbs crumbling mean that SF is disabled, where in fact the people saying that may never have been targeted with a SF at all.

I think I agree that the interaction points to BTE town or 3p more than scum, and you did say suggest, so I think it boils down to the same conclusion.

[davesaz]

I guess I didn't like the question because I think I started the RCE wagon

Check the previous VC.

[davesaz]

I think there should be at least one in rce, fonz, and dave. VOTE: rceB

-k

Boon missed 3496

Thanks for pointing this out.

[davesaz]

mostly because he was lowest in PoE when I was thinking about the game at that moment and no one has really disagreed or towncased him.

So, um, you had

me

in your poe? Not the really strong kind of poe I'd expect from either head...

[davesaz]

So yeah you're kinda in poe and some of your posts like 3707 I was not a big fan of

maybe you're town and george is scum, but maybe it's good for you to know that the way you're pushing him rn makes my read of you degrade more than it does for him if that makes sense

What I'm noticing is that there aren't good reasons for any of the other wagons. Like, nobody can point to a post and say this looks scummy.
It's kinda upsetting when my typical case is "eh, they aren't scumhunting", and I find something that's actually incriminating, and people are like get out that's town.

I get the point that it's only one post that looks like a bus and explains away how he got a no result on his cop action when he shouldn't have had enough time to understand that.
I don't want the alternative to be "just a POE" lynch. If there is an actual reason to go for someone else, that wouldn't bother me as much.

[davesaz]

3043 is a great example of how town should react to getting a no result.
Not just "eh, I trust them anyway".

[davesaz]

So I started re-reading RCE to find out what you mean by not aging well.
Ran across something else which I had totally forgotten.
I'm going to go do that instead.
What did you mean by not aging well?

[davesaz]

but also the whole of his day 2 where he starts off ignoring the guilty and then voices disapproval

That would be a good thing to lead a case with.
It is true to an extent what KK was getting at, that I have at times not paid close attention.
Did I completely miss something where this was brought up at the beginning?
Choosing the person to build votes on and then finding a case is not a good look.

[davesaz]

Yeah I'll give pretty good odds of scum!BTE trying to set up a counterwagon to protect scum!RCE

GB is town now

Speaking of V&M why haven't we been asking about how they're making bonus game picks? More so, why haven't they been bringing it up themselves?
I thought that was a central part of Nancy's reason she couldn't be scum.

I’ve been selecting both tr and players who I think would navigate Boonus rounds the best. Shiro and me are trying to determine that now, whether or not that should be the only criteria for those picks.

I obviously don’t want to out my picks by putting a target on any of their heads and I won’t.

What I'm missing is the description during D2 of who you picked for N1, and today for who you picked for N2.
I agree that saying who you'll pick in advance isn't the best.

[davesaz]

I also want to make it clear that I'm not angling to get picked here. Especially with how much stuff appears to be bastardized this game.
If selected I'll do my best, and if not selected I'll just do my thing.

[davesaz]

Although I’m not crazy about his sudden out of the blue suspicions wrt to our role

Not everything that gets commented on is a suspicion. You do tend to take everything that way to the point that it's totally NAI though so I guess I shouldn't be surprised...

Pedit: MC = massclaim

[davesaz]

Nothing keeping you from clarifying the reason you want one.
Has anything millerized you?

[davesaz]

Would it be worthwhile to claim items, in case some of them have unexpected effects on the game later?
Where role type massclaim tells scum what to expect for actions, item massclaim doesn't have that downside.

[davesaz]

RCE's posting after being wagoned did noting to make me TR him.

[davesaz]

Chronos is the slot I forget about.
I think the problem I'm having is that everyone is being fairly reasonable sounding which makes it a game where you have to catch someone being wrong where they should know they're wrong, or being too sure about being right.

[davesaz]

You have the option of changing it, don't you?
If we choose poorly it's better to find that out early enough to do something about it.

VOTE: sore feet

[davesaz]

If we part ways with ducky, the next best place for a ducky is someone I remember having had a similar avatar at some point, which would be jjh.
Reminding myself of this in case I get too busy later.

[davesaz]

Iso 16-25, not posts 16-25, in case you misunderstood that

-K

Whose iso?

[davesaz]

Wow I was just about to post that basically everyone seems town rn

thanks for reminding me you exist

VOTE: Conspire

I don't like this. You've talked about wanting to lynch us plenty earlier in this day phase.

also at this point everyone has 'a reason' not to get lynched don't they? Other than maybe like conspire? Idk

-K

Why do you think we might not have a reason to not be lynched?

-Cosmic

Iso 16-25 is good dedication for a bus

-K

The quoted posts have no relationship to the comment.
This post doesn't have any obvious relationship to the surrounding conversation.
I don't have the whole fucking thread memorized. I never do.
So no I'm not having a hard time, I'm asking quite relevant questions.

[davesaz]

Iso 16-25 you review the game to that point and build up to a titus vote and case in 25. For early day 1 that would be at least mildly surprising for s/s or above average theater

-K

What about it? You're saying scum can't do a catchup and vote their partner at the end of the catchup?
That's really weak analysis.
There are much better ways to look at this string of posts in general. I happen to TR that series of posts based on content, irrespective of the vote at the end...

[davesaz]

Yeah, I looked at the last two pages again and can't find the context for why KK wanted to make 4287. Maybe it's further back?

[davesaz]

I'm not saying cosmic never ever flips scum, I'm saying she's probably not a good lynch today because this sort of reads list/progression comes from town a whole lot more often than it comes from scum

-K

So yes we're coming to the same conclusion with respect to Conspire being probably town.
Why did you put it that way originally, as saying it's not a bus? That's what is confusing to me. I couldn't see anyone saying it was a bus, so focusing on that specifically was weird.
I can't speak for why Nancy was confused...

[davesaz]

If being a basic boon meant my role was simple. I nearly made Dave my check but felt that would be a wasted shot.

No idea what basic boon means. Boon hasn't said anything about it that I can see.

[davesaz]

I'm the last person to bang on people for activity, and the first one to assume RL intervened.
That said, George disappeared as soon as his wagon did.

[davesaz]

I think focusing too much on Titus interactions will leave us running in circles.
It's too easy for experienced scum to leave false trails and anti-associations to have that be the top consideration in scumhunting.

[davesaz]

I'm the last person to bang on people for activity, and the first one to assume RL intervened.
That said, George disappeared as soon as his wagon did.

When Titus was going down in HW, she began to tunnel Creature, which greatly upset Math and caused him to hardbus her.

Does that go with this comment about George, or about the other comment about using associations too much?
If it goes with George, how does it apply?

[davesaz]

Talking sense is the odd thing out here

I'm not sure I agree with this. I see a lot more sense being talked than nonsense. The issue to me is that there is plenty of sensible positions but not much agreement.

[davesaz]

Like, I don’t understand how he got from, tr both me and Chk but would lynch me over Chk, to having me in his POE. Auro said Fonz accounted for the shift but I couldn’t find it.

Dave, can you produce for us a reads list?
Some ordered ranking of players, no need for detail.

Why quote this post but ask me?
Yes in a few min.

[davesaz]

Here's my rough sort. Basically equal within a line. Top line I feel are very strong reads, the rest I could use to re-read and might move up or down.

Davesaz, Venus and Mars, chkflip, Conspire

Michael Scott, Krazy Katz, jjh927

BTE, Fonz, Sore feet

RCEnigma, George Bailey, Chronos

[davesaz]

@MOD: The vote count was wrong. I'll correct it for you.

VOTE: George Bailey

[davesaz]

If we aren't lynching sore feet then I hope they get their ducky.

[davesaz]

Assuming George isn't just wifoming here, I would prefer to lynch scum.
If George still ends up being our backup plan, it's not a horrible role to lose and we still get the wagon to analyze. Someone may have TMI'd in defense.

Why y'all acting like it was a fake hammer? He wasn't even L-1, 4149 was missed so this wasn't me revoting. Though it's kinda funny I suppose.

[davesaz]

Please clarify what actions you submitted.

[davesaz]

Reminder that it's 13 hours. And after having larger wagons earlier in the day we didn't even have 3 votes until it was under 24.

Pedit: So you attempted to /in where there wasn't a neighborhood or targets had sticky fruit. The role *shouldn't* give a result on an out though with it being Boon it's hard to say. Yanking scum from their PT does have a small utility. I wonder if that makes them no longer scum? It would suck though if someone had a special purpose PT. Worth the risk I guess.

VOTE: RCEnigma

[davesaz]

Reminder that items would be handy to know. I don't think I shared mine...

Sticky Fruit (should now be inactive)
"Boonie looking bullet" (from nomnom IIRC).

[davesaz]

BTW remember that wifommy thing I mentioned, way back? Boon suggested that there could be a pair of items which would have a special effect if two different people are holding them.

[davesaz]

Jjh927 - n1 cop, received both sticky and another item N1, nothing N2, needs 3 items, "there is a delayed vig in the game" (could this be noms numbers thing?)

It should not have been possible for jjh to receive both a sticky and another item, and for you to receive the sticky but not the other item. I specifically asked Boon if receiving an item was an action that SF would stop and he said it would.
Unless the other item jjh got was something from boonus round and therefore not an action?

[davesaz]

Speculating the existence of a PT cop in a u-pick? Crazy talk.

[davesaz]

Though Boon did include the n1 suicide cop thing, so eh?

[davesaz]

Deadline is at like 5am my time. I'm probably going to go to bed in an hour or two. I'll set an alarm if needed, though I once lost an endgame that way.

Are you happy with your current vote? If so, why, and if not then why not move now?

[davesaz]

Are you aware that RCE is at about 4-5 and George has at most 2 right now?

[davesaz]

I guess so, I misread that.

[davesaz]

TBH I consider George's role extremely weak. Getting into a neighborhood is nothing special at all, and it's plausible he was coached to add the /out thing to make the role seem worthwhile.

[davesaz]

And unfortunately the nature of u-pick is to be role madness, and the nature of role madness is that you're gonna be flipping roles.

[davesaz]

And unfortunately the nature of u-pick is to be role madness, and the nature of role madness is that you're gonna be flipping roles.

Yup. Just to be clear, what do you think town should do?

First priority, lynch someone on the scummy side of null. If possible, don't require another claim to do so.

[davesaz]

To make that clearer, lynch scum, but at a minimum someone scummy. Since we're having a really hard time agreeing on who is scum, the best we're gonna get appears to be the latter.

[davesaz]

To make that clearer, lynch scum, but at a minimum someone scummy. Since we're having a really hard time agreeing on who is scum, the best we're gonna get appears to be the latter.

I was more asking your opinions on the relative acceptability of the options?

I'm on the highest wagon because I doubt we can switch.
George would be acceptable. I don't remember who else even has 2 votes.

[davesaz]

If there were evidence that switching back to George would result in a lynch and not just chaos that would be better. It's a weak enough claim that we would probably lose less by doing that than by forcing someone else to claim. Not very satisfying and sucks to be the one with the weak role if he's town, but that's kinda what we get.

[davesaz]

Thoughts:

I have basically no idea what triggered this post.
I'm not sure I want to know. I do know that the reactions are getting old, whatever it is.

[davesaz]

Did you bother to read Nom's flip?
The answer is that neighborhoods could exist.
PT's that are not scum or hoods could exist too.
I don't think it's helpful to confirm or rule out in either case.

I've kinda lost track of the VC. Wasn't 100% sure what it was even before I pointed out the error in Boon's last official one.

[davesaz]

Once 2 players have received this, you will create a Boon Wars Museum neighborhood thread.

[davesaz]

Thoughts:

@Chk, never ever sign up for another game of mine. If you could read my mind now, I’d likely get temp banned for those thoughts.

@Krazy, in what world are you still sr Fonz?

MS and SF are very likely both town.

Nothing GB has posted, makes me want to move my vote.

@Davez, I said 3 other things that have nothing to do with Chk. Why didn’t you comment on those?

Because those weren't the things I wanted to comment on.

[davesaz]

Oh nm, so his role is probably legit then but is it town?

Sorry I replied before seeing your 2nd post on the same subject.
Yeah you're catching up to the point where we think that it's probably legit, but is neither certain to be town nor particularly useful.

[davesaz]

Bailey lynch isn't fucking happening.

Move your votes.

I take this to mean that you would refuse?

Like I said before, I'm down for either RCE or GB.

[davesaz]

4 hours. I don't know who would even be here to vote. That's 10pm for me so not a problem as long as I don't fall asleep watching TV.

[davesaz]

Gonna choose now?
Got a reason for waiting?

Pedit this is to sf.

[davesaz]

Chk, conspire ain’t happening. Why is your vote not already in play on a viable wagon?

[davesaz]

Which them is that referring to?