Redneck Mafia GAME OVER PARTNER!

[Vecna]

We should not try to vig Alch, that will be bad for us

you should stop wasting your energy on these frivolous matters and instead not ignore me and get your reads straight.

I wouldnt be putting in this much effort in getting through to you if I was scum, since you have zero chance of lynching me, and are quite likely to get mislynched yourself in the next few days.

[Vecna]

Who should I shoot then?

I'm not reading 90 pages if I'm probably gonna be the lynch today.

LMAOOOO you weren't reading when you replaced in and the wagon started falling apart wtf is this garbage

The only reason for doubt I have on Tun maybe being scum is that certain people are acting like theyre aware he's about to flip scum and are already trying to make people look bad for defending the slot.

You should say my name when you're talking about me.

Definitely wasnt talking about you. Like the gif, not everything is 'bout you, mr guilty conscience

Read EJ's posts. There was another non-you person doing it as well, but I forgot who it was.

[Vecna]

I will not vote for either of these wagons.

[Vecna]

Itll be interesting to see if Kuribo's replacement is going to keep up that high quality fakery

[Vecna]

Im offering high quality white knighting services.

TL, Thun - how about you join my townbloc instead so we can steer this game around? Ill need my flock to grow for this to go anywhere.

[Vecna]

Come again?

lets roast some frogs to see how its legs taste

[Vecna]

So, chk, you dont feel its odd that wagons are refusing to form on EJ (who keeps promising content, asking us to pressure the slot), the Titus slot that validated its vote with vote count analysis with n=1 and some others, but they keep circulating around unapologetic lynchbait instead?

[Vecna]

You were scum reading user?

I was townreading it by play, but have started gutscumreading it by feel, gamestate, and the slot being too clean and well behaved overall more recently.

Then that preachy post came when I dared questioned him, where he talked to me in such a way that he was 100% convinced I am town. Those types of posts where there is zero doubt about alignment are usually a semi-scum slip in my experience.

The slot just feels to me like mistakes couldve been made and it mightve skillfully maneuvered itself into our good graces.

Reasons to grill and apply a ton of pressure to this replacement imo.

[Vecna]

Hope shit will get better for you Kuribo. sincerely

i appreciate that but you still owe me an answer:

This is probably one of the top5 scummy posts in the thread.

how the fuck is it scummy, nay, one of the scummiest posts in the fucking thread, to say: "Have him investigate me, lynch me if he says i'm guilty, and then when I flip town, rope his ass right behind me"


do you find that scum frequently offer themselves for investigation and for lynch or are you just calling everything scummy?

do you think that i'm even trying to survive in this game?

My first impression to that post was sternly this: Why would town even be thinking about the possibility of getting fake guiltied? The chance of a guilty being called out is something scum is much more likely to have on their mind. Pre-empting it with a sound good "ill take a lynch if it happens, but you better lynch the 3p after" just doesnt add anything of value, and duh.

Then you're obviously not paying the slightest bit of attention to the game if you think that my survival or even participation in the game is in any way a priority.

I'm not even "worried" about a fake guilty and if you were the eensiest bit genuine you'd understand that I was offering myself up to the town as a chance to sort that third party bullshit once and for all: he either clears me with his investigation or he lies and gets me lynched, at which point I will flip town and his lynch should immediately follow.

And on a more personal note, this is the second game I've played with you and I'm going to tell you what your biggest roadblock is in mafia: you assume every player to play the exact same way you would. You don't take personalities into account: you make assumptions on their intent and then you use it to snipe at actions that you think are scummy. Like, you assume I'm trying to survive in a game (as you said "duh") despite the fact that I hadn't even decided if I'm going to remain in the game to begin with. Surviving a game I won't be around to finish does absolutely nothing for me in any capacity. You assume that because in your mind, every player has the same personality. Mark my words Vecna, overcome this obstacle and you could become a top tier player.


Oh and while I'm critiquing players, Dr Drew, "I'm always scummy" is not a valid defense nor is it something to aspire to. If you're town here, or in any game, really, stop and realize you are harming your own win conditions by accepting that you look scummy as town. You will continue to be mislynched, you will continue to harm your towns, and you will continue to be seen as dead weight.

DGB, I love you most dearly of all. I do believe in my heart of hearts that you are town. But please, murder scum in my honor. The third party is shady as hell, but playing games with DGB is supposed to be a magical experience. (I didn't even realize you were in this game when I signed up so it was a pleasant surprise) Playing a game with DGB and Kuribo both in it is supposed to be extra magical, and I apologize that I couldn't hold up my end of the bargain.

My previous assessment of scum groups (find it in my iso) is pretty much where I left off. I don't like pisskop for town. That said, I've caught pisskop as scum before and this feels different, though I admit my head isn't in the game, so take my reads with a grain of salt. These groupings are based on surface level analysis of associative pairings. I haven't done the legwork since then, and what I have done isn't complete. These are usually pretty accurate (associative tells are, aside from judging emotion, the key parts of my playstyle, and they help me catch scum by dayplay. A lot of dead scum have fallen to my feet because of associative tells) but like I said I never caught up and I never got around to finishing.

If chkflip is scum, he's the deep wolf who will lead the town into oblivion. I'm townreading him at the moment though.

Elsa is shady; any claimed Vig that doesn't shoot into the lurk mass needs to be questioned extensively.

Speaking of the lurkmass, the lurkmass rule holds true in 95% of games: take the bottom 1/3 of posters by activity and there's almost always at least one scum in there. I'm not saying go lynch a lurk, but if you flip a scum then take that lurkmass and compare associatives with the dead scum. You're looking for people who are interacting for the sake of interacting, or people who forget to interact because they already have a PT.

And that's it from me for now, I'm working this weekend, I haven't read shit, I might if I decide what I'm doing with my life. You know what it's like trying to read this game right now? It's like reading ancient holy texts in a language I don't understand that's almost english. It's like I recognize these words but their meaning is nothing to me. I don't feel a sense of elation like I do when a game is really something I'm in to, nor do I feel that dread that one feels for a game he is actively hating. I feel nothing for this game, just an empty hollow void that should be filled with the blood of scum. And it's not fair to be taking a slot that someone could be enjoying themselves in. Like I'm giving it at least to the weekend to see if that fire comes back, but right now it's just a wasteland of motivation.

Thank you all from the pit of my burning, nauseous stomach for your encouragement and concern during the past week. I'm too much of an erratic, moody poster these last few days! I don't have the passion for the game right now, and so remember, it's better to burn out than to fade away.

Peace, love, empathy.

This post. Questioning the genuineness of my read, but then proceeding with the lesson that 100% implies me being town, hampered by my own disability holding me back.

It does have that nice touch of appeasing to the prospect of being near top-tier, while at the same time trying to abolish my argument.

He focuses on the aspect of survival, while that was not what the argument was about.

It might be nothing, just Kuribo mouthing off because he doesnt like to be questioned and he thinks my argument was stupid, or it mightve been one crack in a well-kept armor.

[Vecna]

Anyways, its probably nothing. The iso reads as good as ever. Shame there were no comments about the replacements.

[Vecna]

Time to trap Bingle.

Hey Bingle, how many scum are we likely dealing with in this setup?

[Vecna]

french toast for breakfast. O-yeah

[Vecna]

why is EJ towny, titus?

Also, would you be willing to sheep my strong townreads on TL and Logical squid? Theyre both the flapping lynchbaits this game that are unapologetically stubborn and keep scumreading me even though everyone knows im town.

[Vecna]

TL is not trying to pocket people at all, hes just afraid to get shot because hes a PR.

[Vecna]

im still curious why the both of u feel im even remotely scummy

[Vecna]

were not lynching TL anyway, and he should not be forced to claim. This claim pushing is fucking anti town.

[Vecna]

in fact, unvote him abd start voting actually scummy people.

EJ still hasnt done shit all all game even after making tons of promises.

Galron replaced in and has been so dubious but has remained under everyones radar.

Instead theres these teo garbage wagons. I get the one of Thub sonewhat even though I feel its slightly more likely to be town, but this way were just gonna end up lynching another town PR.

[Vecna]

finger-phone-aids, ahoy

[Vecna]

VOTE: Galron

care to elaborate on why galron over EJ or are you fine with either?

[Vecna]

oh look, stuff is happening

[Vecna]

Vecna, I am not sheeping your townreads on TL and Logic. I think they are partners. I'm still a little iffy on you but not scumreading you.

I can however, vote whatever wagon gets off the ground in my pool.

VOTE: Galron

You posted me at the top of your readslist....

Also, you ignored my question about why not elsa jay

[Vecna]

Chkflip, your aggrevation seems to be aimed at only a select few players.

I should probably do an iso dive on you to see if my suspicions hold true, since my impression now is that you seem to prop up a bunch of my townreads most of the time, while you give a hard pass on all the shit pulled by a bunch of other slots.

[Vecna]

Elsa, DD, TL. I've been down with any of them for a while. Check my ISO.

I think you also know very well I dont care about whether im sitting on a fence, and I rarely give a shit how people feel about my process of reaching my conclusions. If im the only one that thinks youre town ill still defend you to death (like with votato last game we played together) and if im the only one that thinks youre scum I also really dont give a shit being the only vanity voter just for the sake of it.

This is good I like this.

Having said all that, I really didnt care for your "everyone not one of these 6 votes is wasting their shit, blabla". Especially now that youre actually encouraging me to do that.

Before Thun repped in, I was advocating for people to just start fucking posting again. Half the game was doing literally nothing. Some of that list is still doing nothing but here we are.

What people don't realize is that when I say "your vote sucks, move it" I'm not demanding you actually do it. I'm engaging you. If I don't like your vote? So fucking what dude play your game. But without engagement we have nothing and I can't sort shit when it's just sitting on the floor. I need to splatter it on the wall. That's... not different than how I played last time we played?

But whatever to all that. Im still in the ongoing process of making up my mind. Your play this game is completely wtf-all-over-the-place. Im not used from you whatsoever that youre trying to be the bad cop townleader trying to forcefully get people to do what you want em to do. You were much less inclined to make people do what you wanted them to do in all our prior games. Whether its just a change in style and youre fighting for your beliefs, or youre openwolfing to kingdom come out of some sort of desperation because all the alternatives are likely to land on scum.....eh. fuck me if I know.

So, ill enjoy my spot here on the fence.

Oh I jumped the gun. That last bit should go here. I will add that my level of engagement does change with player lists, my role, and how I'm being read. I think you've seen that happen throughout the last couple weeks. I do this rollercoaster thing. No?

here flip says hes down with lynching EJ. he says he has been for a while, and to check his iso.

I did actually check the entire iso, and my suspicion holds very true. Flip called out EJ once in the entire game for posting little. He liked the post where EJ told us to pressure him to make him play.

now look at these things:

[Vecna]

Your refusal to fucking play a game you signed up for is so incredibly frustrating.

Clint Rosewood. Even-night vigilante.

Vote: Elsa Jay

y'all not gonna do anything about the counterclaim?

Claim aside, are you scum reading Elsa? Reasons?

Here he questions username for voting EJ

[Vecna]

Vecna voting me after we got a contradiction from Thun already. Fun.

Isn't mafia swell?

I still believe the Thun wagon is solely "Thun's claim is bad"...

That's not very good but Thun hasn't seemed towny to me maybe

It isn't solely that. Where are you getting that from?

And why do you CONSTANTLY fence sit?

Then here he questions and redicules me over voting EJ.

He said he was down with voting the slot. Yet he's been given the opportunity there at that point.

Right before as well now, I give people the option between EJ. And Galron.

ChkFlip decides to wagon Galron instead.

Why? Why not EJ? From whom he liked that the slot said to pressure it to start posting. It never started posting.

Chkflip has been very critical of a bunch of people this game. Yet this EJ slot gets no flack whatsoever, but gets handhelding, and he questions people when they vote there. WHILE HE SAID HE WAS DOWN WITH LYNCHING THERE.

This is a SvS duo.

[Vecna]

VOTE: Elsa Jay

[Vecna]

Your refusal to fucking play a game you signed up for is so incredibly frustrating.

Clint Rosewood. Even-night vigilante.

Vote: Elsa Jay

y'all not gonna do anything about the counterclaim?

Claim aside, are you scum reading Elsa? Reasons?

Actually, the irony in this post is really showing if you think about it.

He questions pooky, being frustrated by him not playing the game.

He questioned Gobbledygook for a little while over the lurking.

Pine got a pass (which is understandable even if im wrong here) and EJ has been getting a hard pass and a soft defense all game long.

[Vecna]

And before anyone asks why im voting EJ over Flip....

If this theory is right, the slot is probably not very busable but one of the scum high powered roles

[Vecna]

So you are going with EJ because it is harder to get flip elim'd but you think they are a powerful scum role, am I interpreting that correctly?

If im correct, im expecting EJ to both be easier to flip and potentially a stronger role since there seems to be a strong unwillingness to bus that slot

[Vecna]

@Vecna, EJ just feels town to me. I particularly don't like TL's jump onto EJ. You are near the top of my reads list but that doesn't make you right. It also doesn't absolve you of all paranoia, particularly before my VCA gains strength.

That being said, the case you lay out is the type of thing I look for in SvS. So if I am wrong, you are probably right. Do you think chkflip is making up his meta scumread on me and positioning himself for tmo?

What makes you think EJ is scum? Do you think Thun is included in their team?

Just feels town to you?

The slot made like 2 posts since you rep'd in. Can you be more specific?

[Vecna]

So you are going with EJ because it is harder to get flip elim'd but you think they are a powerful scum role, am I interpreting that correctly?

If im correct, im expecting EJ to both be easier to flip and potentially a stronger role since there seems to be a strong unwillingness to bus that slot

So your saying I'm a powerful scum role that targeted a 3p? Or if you think I'm lying on that, you think my plan is to pocket a 3p and do jackshit to win?

Also seeing you trying to justify all your scumreads as one team too, which seems unlikely at all. It feels more like you just wanna combine the two together to make a bigger case.

And a reminder I was very non committed to the vig claim at all and stuff. But again, no way I claim anything good day 1 and draw attention to myself as scum. Town Miller hoping to get shot first, maybe, but not scum.

Whether you targetted the 3p is completely irrelevant to my case, as you could've done that as either alignment.

Im not trying to justify "all my scumreads" as one team, I looked at the interactions between you and ChkFlip, which show a clear pattern of him letting you get away with stuff throughout the game that he is continuously attacking others over.

I wont accept "would I do x as scum?" defenses. You can participate, give reads and show us your town through actual actions we can see, or you'll get lynched.

[Vecna]

For the purpose of clarity then, something similar to a Miller I guess. I'm a Gel that doesn't benefit town.

Interesting how you were not at all willing to clarify this to people when the claimed vig was getting lynched on grounds of "we cannot have 2 vig claims on town, and youre the one were not believing".

In fact, you were voting the slot. If it was scum, and you are actually town, why on earth would you ever think a scum would claim a role you had been softing, and the general consensus was that it was possible that you were?

[Vecna]

Your vote is still there, no?

[Vecna]

Seems to me you were fine letting him get lynched, right until the moment username started voting you for thinking you were the scum in the two.

Then you reminded everyone that you werent actually claiming vig.

(and im sure plenty of others that were actually paying attention knew that wasnt what you were hardclaiming, but it still feels like a really suspicious series of events, and I really dont see the town mindset in how you approached all that wagon).

[Vecna]

UNVOTE: Elsa Jay

I really would like if you'd just participate more and share your opinions on shit.

What do you make of Chk giving you a complete pass on everything, while he is actively attacking others over the same shit?

[Vecna]

@Vecna, you ignored my question about chkflip possibly faking his meta read on me.

yeah, i did. Im being weirded out a bit by the thing where both you and chk want me to formulate opinions on the other. Do it yourself, dont use me as the middleman.

Besides, I didnt really get the point chk was trying to make.

[Vecna]

What do you make of Chk giving you a complete pass on everything, while he is actively attacking others over the same shit?

I've noticed that with the prematurely asking for claims bit. Could you point out where else he's doing it?

I'm the reason Thun claimed at L-3 and you were the only one who raised an eyebrow.

Read my actual posts?

[Vecna]

Or alternatively go through CHK's iso.

He's been really cherrypicking on who he attacks on certain things. Very little interaction or calling out the bullshits on certain other slots.

[Vecna]

2724-2728

not sure how you'd miss stuff just 2 pages ago. Guess youre not reading along with great attention

[Vecna]

And EJ mightve charmed me off of it, but his handling of the Thun claim was shady and weird as fuck

[Vecna]

Let me put it in understandable baby-small-words:

Be CHKflip.

-Attack Gobbledygook over lurking
-Attack pooky over not participating
-Make mentions of pine's lurking but note its something he always does
-Do not give one shit that Elsa jay is lurking hard and proddodging. Say EJ is towny because he asks us to pressure him into participating, and saying hell get more active.
-State you'll wagon EJ as one of your three choices
-Continue to completely ignore EJ's lurking. A wagon on EJ pops up. Attack two people voting that wagon, and vote Galron instead.

Seems like a logical town mindset to you?

[Vecna]

@Vecna, you ignored my question about chkflip possibly faking his meta read on me.

yeah, i did. Im being weirded out a bit by the thing where both you and chk want me to formulate opinions on the other. Do it yourself, dont use me as the middleman.

Besides, I didnt really get the point chk was trying to make.

I'm not using you to form an opinion. I am using you as a sounding board to verify if my emotional/tone read is valid. I don't really care if you don't like it, but that's how I work with mutual townreads. I use them to shore up my weak points and check my work.

So I'd appreciate it if you answer. If you don't then whatever. I'll live, but don't bite my hand and then complain I am uncooperative.

I think there were certain pings in your play that was reminiscent of your scum replace ins. You quickly singled out 2 lynchbait people with tone issues that are easy to scumread. Your read of Bingle was pretty interesting to me since I was the only person at the type with suspicions there. Your reasons for it were weak, and ive seen you bullshit some reasons together in the past to appease to my wrong reads in the past when I was playing townleader.

Gun to my head I think youre slightly more likely town than scum here because youre displaying a few of the town-things u tend to do to bounce off of people etc etc, but I dont think youre outside of your scumrange yet and you mightve just learned to include those in your scumgame.

I was not aware what game Chkflip was referencing. I dont remember a game with the 3 of us in it. I really dont know how he views your meta, how he analyzes you, nada.

Ill gladly help you with whatever, but I just dont have the experience to judge how town-him would view you. Honestly, his post was so vague that I dont even know whether he scumreads or townreads you here.

[Vecna]

I was not aware what game Chkflip was referencing. I dont remember a game with the 3 of us in it. I really dont know how he views your meta, how he analyzes you, nada.

Were you not in the last Boon game with us?

Have I gone completely mental?

More at 11.

How I analyze Titus is forever changing because she's a savvy lawyer and if I have the hook I better be fucking ready for a fire fight because she brings it.

Ive personally yet to see a game where scum Titus replaces in and isnt lynched within 2 days because she's extremely obvious. Maybe those gamestates were already far more stacked against her then this one would be though, making her effort less.

[Vecna]

Me regardless. I promise you won't die.

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=82397

This game, Vecna.

I guess my memory of this game is very fuzzy since I died N1.

But Titus was obv-scum there as well

[Vecna]

Honestly this is where im at, and I think these reads are pretty controversial, but pretty decent

Town:
Vecna
Thun pisskop
TemporalLich
Logicalicaltist
PookyTheMagicalBear*
Titus Doctor Drew
DrippingGoofball*
Froppy username

3P:
Alchemist21

All scum in this pool?:
Almost50
Bingle gobbledygook
chkflip votato
Galron Pine
Elsa Jay

[Vecna]

The annoying thing about this game is that all my reads can be discounted. No hardlock towns whatsoever. Most scum suspects have had some nice redeeming posts. TL and LC are going to get themselves lynched because their logic is all over the place and has no trajectory that people can identify with. The pisskop and username slots are skilled enough to fake that shit.

yegh

[Vecna]

VOTE: Galron

[Vecna]

How I analyze Titus is forever changing because she's a savvy lawyer and if I have the hook I better be fucking ready for a fire fight because she brings it.

Knock off the burden of proficiency and read me as any other player if you're town.

I bring the fire as either alignment. I defend better than I prosecute. I am a big believer in reasonable doubt.

Pretty strange stance for a lawyer to not account for proficiency.

Id wager your day does not go well if you do not account for the proficiency of opposing council.

[Vecna]

The annoying thing about this game is that all my reads can be discounted. No hardlock towns whatsoever. Most scum suspects have had some nice redeeming posts. TL and LC are going to get themselves lynched because their logic is all over the place and has no trajectory that people can identify with. The pisskop and username slots are skilled enough to fake that shit.

yegh

Have you considered that TL and LC have no trajectory because they're scum?

Reasonable doubt.

Also, I have a towntell for their type of players, and if they continue to gun for me in that stubborn way that every person does when they play with me for the first time, it usually means only good things.

Besides, every person has their own type of moon logic. I think theirs is consistent with their personality, but more importantly: genuine

[Vecna]

maybe ive just become a sucker for punishment.

Im convinced TL is going to flip town though

[Vecna]

Im convinced TL is going to flip town though

What do you think of his reactions to PR claims if he is indeed a PR?

Every time a PR claim comes up he shows absolutely no concern that it's a fakeclaim from my perspective. I agree that the emphasis on survivability does make sense from town PR, but literally everything else doesn't.

None of his reactions really have stood out as weird to me. Ive been working under the assumptions theres plenty of PRs in this game, so I dont really see a reason why him being a PR should significantly alter how he responds to claims.

[Vecna]

VOTE: Froppy

Maybe you shouldnt do that after you just replace in and it puts the slot as the likely lynch for the day

[Vecna]

Ugh, more doubt on my LC read. Those posts are so so so bad

[Vecna]

VOTE: Elsa Jay

[Vecna]

doubt. Do you generally want to instantly lynch your townreads when they make a spree of poor ass posts?

EJ is a potential contender to beat the TL wagon.

[Vecna]

All scum in this pool?:
Almost50

Mission accomplished.

My sole goal when playing with Vecna is to get him to SR me, and I have ALWAYS won on that department.

Not always

....but very often

something something broken clock

[Vecna]

I really dont get how people think this guy is scum.

Especially Bingles last post just screams scum bingle to me

[Vecna]

but w/e, we'll mislynch, I get killed tonight, and town can just continue to give scum a perfect victory I guess

[Vecna]

VOTE: Bingle

[Vecna]

lol

Sorry Chk. Shouldve stuck with my initial d2 gut feeling. Well done

[Vecna]

You and Doctor Drew are starting to look townier with your later posts... that's what an upward trend is...

Logical is on a downward trend but a strong TR shouldn't be easy to dispel with just gut feeling and circumstantial evidence.

Bingle just feels like Bingle's meta, don't see it as alignment indicative.

What if I think you might be scum that got told you can gently nudge me and join me to keep pushing chkflip into a mislynch?

That seems like an easy line to take for scum today

yeah I'm not sure why Vecna is trying to throw a small look of shade at me

also I'd like to know at least something about why Vecna townreads chkflip though I don't think I'm getting that answer

Who says im townreading him?

Im trying to grasp why the fuck I got zero traction yesterday, while the person that was obv-clueless-town flailing about got hammered, even after making a super believable claim.

The shift in reads from people seems to just appear out of thin air.

Chkflip really didnt do anything to become more scummy. I really didnt do much to suddenly become more towny. Yet, the reads suddenly just do this shift. Yeah, I feel there is high scum incentive to push and cuddle this way if Im wrong on my earlier scumread on Chkflip.

Ill add to this though: Chkflip was a lot scummier on d1 than he has been on d2 so far. Yet noone was sheeping me. So now, im indeed highly suspicious

So Bingle, is this a SvS interaction, given what scum was trying to do yesterday?

[Vecna]

Lich, Logic:

Let's perform an exercise.

Let's say the three of us (myself, you, Logic) are town. We have a semi-confirm locking Pook and Goof as town. That gives a pretty small berth to find scum.

Give me three. Ignore your lists.

Pooky (yeah Pooky is scummy enough for me to distrust the claim, DGB still town tho), PK, Vecna, and maybe Doctor Drew

Why am I scum in this scenario?

You were townreading me, right untill I was defending CHK-flip for a moment against your weakass swing.

So if youre assuming CHKflip is town then, how does that suddenly change my alignment?

you do realize I scumread you Vecna... your posts are scummy and you're on a neutral trend

Yeah, I realize you need a lot of guidance. the rest is just in your head

We should not try to vig Alch, that will be bad for us

you should stop wasting your energy on these frivolous matters and instead not ignore me and get your reads straight.

I wouldnt be putting in this much effort in getting through to you if I was scum, since you have zero chance of lynching me, and are quite likely to get mislynched yourself in the next few days.

Im offering high quality white knighting services.

TL, Thun - how about you join my townbloc instead so we can steer this game around? Ill need my flock to grow for this to go anywhere.

[Vecna]

Maybe I should do another edition of level 6 conspiracy theories so everyone can see

how absolutely crazy I am

how obvtown I am.

[Vecna]

I tracked Thun they visited Chkflip.

Also, itd be hilarious if Chk died from A50s cookie and this turns out to be a lie

[Vecna]

In fact, wheres A50's cookie kill on N2?

Alch, did he give you that cookie N1? Better not lie

[Vecna]

So before EoD (And yes, I do mean before E-1 we continue voting up to prevent a selfhammer) I want to hear from Alch and Thun.

I should probably also look at mechanical implications of roles we have.


Light setup spec says probably 2 remaining scum, definitely no more than 2, which means a LC/Thun 1v1 hard clears DGB. If pookyGB is a masonry as they've crumbed, that also hardclears pooky. Both are very town by their reaction to TL wagon yesterday. A 4.5 person scumteam with a conditional vig is way too much power for any 16p setup. I also need to colorize some VCs, I think.

Vecna looks a hell of a lot worse post TL flip, considering the strength of the TL role in scum hands. I think it's a safe assumption that chk was the bookie target for D2 as that would make sense with the claim and TL's approach to the game.

So Bingle, walk me through how youre aware its quite likely TL targetted CHK with his ability, but you discount all the shit that happened around it? Tell me in detail how this shit actually made me look bad.

Also, you start the day focusing on the interactions between TL and squiggles, saying you think TL pocketed squid-o, but he's still at the bottom of your readslist?

[Vecna]

If there are three scum remaining I'm going to have harsh words for Boon at the end of the game. Scum having control of 3 kills and a 4.5 person scumteam in a 16p game is nonsense.

(Relooking at the A50 flip, he was a vig in addition to a traitor.)

Also, these are the types of posts you make as scum. Bad mech-analysis that makes no sense, and has 0 chance of actually happening, but you do just state it for whatever reason.

These posts pinged me in the last game you were scum, but I ignored them then.

[Vecna]

I have taken my epiphany/conspiracy shower

I can now see the matrix

[Vecna]

If there are three scum remaining I'm going to have harsh words for Boon at the end of the game. Scum having control of 3 kills and a 4.5 person scumteam in a 16p game is nonsense.

(Relooking at the A50 flip, he was a vig in addition to a traitor.)

Was this your gloat-post Bingle?

Showing off to the mods/godthread?

Gloating over us buying your trick?

I know what you did last night Bingle

[Vecna]

first time to rule out the thing

[Vecna]

alch promised us cookies if we visited him.

lets hear what he has to say.

Sorry, dude. I'm out. Would you care for a cinnamon biscuit instead?

hmmm, boring?

[Vecna]

VOTE: Alchemist

It is -so- A50 to send biscuits to the 3P.

And then EJ did that weird "thanks for keeping quiet comment"

Something is going on right below our noses.


The full truth Alchemist. And nothing but the truth. Or were gonna make DGB very happy today

[Vecna]

sure would suck to get lynched riiiiight before you got your victory condition, eh?

[Vecna]

Pisskop doing the asking for cookies thing. A50 clarifying out in the open that it was him.

Might scum have known the flavour of hidden A50? Or what pisskop doing the cookie thing just random bad luck?

If it was open communication, does that mean that squid just covered for Thud? Or did scum just use Thud to NK Chk? If so, then who killed A50? Why would scum kill A50?

[Vecna]

I was going to wildly spin the theory of scum having an ability that made A50 flip with a role PM that wasnt actually his (Because scum killing A50 and randomly just happening to hit their own traitor is SO WEIRDLY UNLIKELY) and Bingle was openly showing off to the godthread for pulling it off while there are actually three scum remaining......but A50 openly doing that thing kinda makes that very unlikely unless this game truely is a mechanics black box of epic weirdness.

[Vecna]

At any rate, that was A50 openly signaling to the 3P he had sent him a biscuit. Guess he was scared of randomly hitting scum and just wanted to buddy up to the 3P. Totally fits his playstyle, just having like 4 kills go off on N3 in a sudden explosion of mayhem and having town completely confuse the shit out of themselves.

[Vecna]

How the hell do scum end up killing A50 there.

Something just does not make sense

[Vecna]

"sorry dude im out"

A50 was so quiet D2 as well.

Did he maybe know already that he was going to die himself?

Tinfoil: Was pisskop actually some weird informed reflector or some shit?

time for a time-out

[Vecna]

Would be pretty bad for my ego if both Thun/TL were SvS competing wagons and I was trying to dissuade us from lynching either. Which is.....quite the plausible outcome here.

[Vecna]

Also, why would a town Thun not change his target away from Chkflip after TL flipped scum?

[Vecna]

I guess the most "plausible explanation" for this shit is that A50 targeted Pisskop/Thun. The slot is lying about its role, and for some reason A50/Piss coordinated a bit too obvious and open to their newly found out teammate, both using the cookie language.

Pisskop reflected A50's ability back to him. A50 died from his own poisonous cookie. Thun is scum reflector or some such. Thats why he knew A50 would die and he could "safely" claim N2 vig since an extra kill was going to pop up. Scum NK Chkflip tonight. Squid can both be town tracker or scum whatever in this scenario.

Is this too cuckoo?

[Vecna]

Let's lynch Temp. Who should I shoot based on what he flips?

Whichever lurker you think is most likely to flip scum.

Regardless of everything else (and his alignment), chk is right that we have a lot of lurk and that needs to be addressed in order to keep the game state healthy enough to actually catch scum.

Sure. I won't say who then to keep scum guessing whether I'm targeting them.

Also, this actually sounds like hes on board with shooting a lurker

[Vecna]

alch promised us cookies if we visited him.

lets hear what he has to say.

Sorry, dude. I'm out. Would you care for a cinnamon biscuit instead?

Have any other plausible explanations why A50 would post this? Especially the "sorry im out" part......

Just A50 leaving behind stuff to confuse the shit out of us? Because it seems quite the coincidence that he'd post that line -just after daystart- of D2

[Vecna]

The mod just confirmed to me that you'd be informed if you received a cookie, but not that it would kill you.

[Vecna]

Regardless, Thun survived the poisonous cookie, A50 felt the need to respond to him softing his role, and apologizing, and telling him he was out.

Either he was explicitly setting him up in case he ever died, or he was communicating his own demise because he knew Pisskop/Thun knew.

The fact Pisskop did not respond to that weird msg makes me think he knew damn well what had transpired.

[Vecna]

well no


alch promised us cookies if we visited him.

lets hear what he has to say.

I’m waiting for my Cookie.

And ofcourse, just after the msg, this guy also responds to it

[Vecna]

The main problem with the competing wagons is that the deadline poisons them

Going to no-execute is way worse than two players you aren't sure of. Lavender town slipped hard and it was too late to fix by then without making day one a complete waste

I wanna look back at who hopped on Lavender after I started that one rolling.

I expect two scum on that wagon. One is possible, more than two with competing town wagons isn't likely. All town is possible but real unlikely after the slip.

And......very closely afterwards.....

[Vecna]

Was the entire scumteam just signaling to A50?

[Vecna]

Lock it up, the remaining two scum are Thun and Username's replacement

[Vecna]

VOTE: Thun

[Vecna]

Coincidence that all scum replaced out after they figured out that TL was failing in his Chkflip tunnel, and A50 signalled to them that he had killed himself on the scum reflector?

[Vecna]

If this is accurate, then lol at username for that whole speech in my direction after calling him out.

Sorry chk/bingle.

[Vecna]

Living in the EU timezone and playing mafia on this forum.....oof.

Anyway, this smells like the game solve right here. No way you just happen to formulate a weird sentence with the word "poisons" in it like that. Signalling to the traitor for sure.

[Vecna]

poor scumteam, having your traitor try to poison your reflector and outing your entire team in the process by trying to communicate to him not to bloody well poison the rest of your team as well.

Comedy gold

[Vecna]

Look at all the quotes. The entire scum team was suddenly aware that A50 was sending poisonous cookies, and they were communicating with him that they were his teammates by including the word cookie and poison in their posts in weird places.

It is possible it went slightly different than what im painting here, but all scum is in Squid, Thun and username.

A50 poisoned himself. Scum dont go about communicating with him, and then murder him after. That doesnt happen. Ergo, chkFlip wasnt a vigkill, but the scum nightkill.

It makes more sense that squid is the town tracker that just happened to witness Thun performing the NK, no?

Alternatively, what happened to the actual scum NK? Its possible they happened to rolecop A50 and were just communicating with him that they were his teammates, but I dont think that fits quite as well.

Regardless, I do not see any scenario where username/frogplacement is not scum here.

And Thun & co probably just wanted to get rid of chkflip regardless since he was on their asses hard. I do not buy a town-vig seeing Chkflip push this hard on TL, see that slot flip town, and then go "but what if he's still scum".

[Vecna]

Anyways Alchemist, if this is the solve I really dont see any reason not to let u win with us and give you some toys tonight.

[Vecna]

although I guess that means youre a night late with using the ability if we lynch back to back scum here.

[Vecna]

Coincidentally, I was mainly believing Thun for the way he interacted with TL, ridiculing him and putting him down for his shit reasoning. That works just fine as well if you're trying to brazenly distance from your teammate.

Also explains why TL did not call out Thun on his bullshit claim.

[Vecna]

VOTE: FROPPY

[Vecna]

Maybe you can go into your scumchat and look for those reasons for us. This is about as good as a guilty, so you should probably just discuss with Thun and concede.

[Vecna]

I wish pooky was here to shower you in popcorn gifs

[Vecna]

Dont feel bad Froppy, you replaced into a slot that left behind a trail of neon pink breadcrumbs.

Unlucky break for the scumteam

[Vecna]

What does that have to do with the fact that your slot was signaling to the traitor that you were his teammate?

Even if you guys found out via rolecop, you still scumclaimed lol.

[Vecna]

here's a quick lead rist, don't send me to the aether if it's wrong because I skimmed everyone's ISO for this:

TR

TL

NT

HN

NS

SL

SR

3P

[Town]

DrippingGoofball

- Has a claimed inno by Pooky, no reason to doubt said inno as of now.

Logicalicaltist

- With great pushing and town initiative this is the townie we need.

PookyTheMagicalBear

- The GIFposting reduces content but I have a feeling the informed claim is true so I am putting this at townlean level.

Almost50

- Still seems like his towny self, but I have a feeling A50 is more reserved here.

chkflip

- He's starting to look more promising as time goes on...

pisskop

- Memey but an ISO skim looked content-rich.

Iecerint

- A decently good ISO, 423 is probably a good post.

Lavender

- Not much content in the ISO but I feel a townish vibe.

Alchemist21

- Claimed townsiding 3P, I don't have a reason to doubt this.

username

- I'm not sure what impression I get from the ISO. At least it's content-rich.

Pine

- Unreadable due to lack of game-related info, defaulting to hard null (assuming V/LAishness here)

gobbledygook

- Lurker with contentless ISO, 126 is approaching info but actually isn't info

Doctor Drew

- Memey, totally not concerned with appearances. However his content looks a little scummy.

Elsa Jay

- I don't like the ISO. Sorry, but I just don't. It doesn't ping me town.

Vecna

- I really don't like the ISO, the readlist is bad in light of future info and 696 feels abrasive to me

[Scum]

VOTE: Vecna

Also interesting that TL called both his buddies iso content-rich. Not sure if there was some signalling going on with that, but I do remember one of them even commented on it.

[Vecna]

It seems you forgot to read the actually important posts

[Vecna]

Vecna, can you lay out your theory in condensed bullet points? Thank you.

Scum figured out at the start of d2 that their traitor sends out poisoned cookies.

pisskop first starts by talking about cookies first.

A50 responds to him. he says:
-sorry
-im out
-want a biscuit instead

He dies the following night.

within a few posts of that, both logicalcultist and username use the two keywords in their posts to signal to A50 theyre scum with him.

what I think happened:
-A50 targeted pisskop n1.
-The cookie got reflected back to A50
-Pisskop still got the msg someone tried to sent him a poisoned biscuit. He asks around, pretending hes talking about the 3p.
-A50 responds and lets him know he sent it and that hes gonna die from the cookie.
-scum realize a50 is their traitor. they all sent coded msgs to let A50 know the scumteam. I quoted em on the last page.

Scum knew A50 was the traitor there, so they did not kill him.

[Vecna]

The main problem with the competing wagons is that the deadline

poisons

them

Going to no-execute is way worse than two players you aren't sure of. Lavender town slipped hard and it was too late to fix by then without making day one a complete waste

I wanna look back at who hopped on Lavender after I started that one rolling.

I expect two scum on that wagon. One is possible, more than two with competing town wagons isn't likely. All town is possible but real unlikely after the slip.

that sentence makes no sense. its him trying to hide the secret msg to A50. hes the last hidden scum.

[Vecna]

well, its a theory, and ive been known to see patterns where none exist.....but this one has so much meat to it, and the people involved already had a bunch of things working against em.

I think its the real deal here.

[Vecna]

read my posts bingle, gamesolve most likely

[Vecna]

what I think happened:
-A50 targeted pisskop n1.
-The cookie got reflected back to A50
-Pisskop still got the msg someone tried to sent him a poisoned biscuit. He asks around, pretending hes talking about the 3p.
-A50 responds and lets him know he sent it and that hes gonna die from the cookie.
-scum realize a50 is their traitor. they all sent coded msgs to let A50 know the scumteam. I quoted em on the last page.

Why would the scum message A50 after he's claimed he's dead?

pisskop started it first. A50 was a bit ambiguous and just said "im out" which couldve just been interpreted as him trying to hide his softs in plain sight.

better question: why would town suddenly start talking in the terminology of A50's role pm?

pisskop couldve been random (but why didnt he follow up on A50's reply?)
squiggles couldve been just oblivious town mixing in

....but that username post was just blatant signalling that we never wouldve noticed if it wasnt for me randomly deciding to reread three pages of d2 daystart

[Vecna]

For anyone that needs clarification, blasting is my replacement for the L-word. The elimination. Not a night kill.

Dammit, DEB. I had a reason for asking via PM.

tbf, if chks role worked the way it did, he likely wouldve taken uit cultist chap. He was pushing the vig to shoot there, so why would scum be afraid to trigger that ability?

[Vecna]

Iirc, your defense of chk came after mine and definitely after my push on TL. Do you agree with that recollection? I’ll be going back to check when I’m not mobile. Your dismissal of my case on TL as surface level reasoning and strong defense there for reasons you never really explained are my main thoughts about you looking worse in light of the flips, although tbh I’m having trouble reconciling your nonassociative play with being scum at all.

nah, you need to reread that shit properly and youll see clearly whats what.

[Vecna]

lalalala

Guess this is how chk felt the last 2 gamedays, but then for 14 actual days. feelsbadman

[Vecna]

I still have no idea what youre even claiming

[Vecna]

Anyways, for those still in doubt, you should see the interactions between TL and Username.

Username was quite literally propping up TL to look better and did a ton of interactions early game specifically with that slot

[Vecna]

I can prove I am town because of my role, should I explain how I can prove my self rn or is no one else buying this?

So this is somehow meant to prove youre town?

[Vecna]

You changed your mind afterward and said you'd shoot a lurker.

Chk pushed a lynch on scum all day.

Did you even see the flip of TL?

[Vecna]

What's going on with this poisonous shit? Soemthing that links me with someone else? Give me the tldr.

Who said anything about poisonous?

How do you know about poisonous?

Nice scumslip bud

[Vecna]

So you are aware of me linking it to you somehow, you read that much, but instead of reading the argument you instead come here and ask me to go into it once more?

[Vecna]

How did you make the selection of what to read?

Sounds to me like Froppy went and informed you in scumchat of us figuring the shit out.

[Vecna]

I really dont think you couldve skimmed and figured out im targetting you over some poisoned shit, while missing my three posts summarizing it.

[Vecna]

Except Alchemist never brought up cookies, and he definitely was the first to bring up cookies.

And sure, cookies, happen all the time.

They just dont happen all the time at random, when the entire scumteam just happens to all be talking about poisoned cookies right at that same moment, A50 confesses he's about to die, and then dies the next night.....flipping a traitor that gives out poisoned cookies.

But sure, its all just one big coincidence ~

[Vecna]

just read the bloody game and youd know....hes made it pretty obvious hes onboard with my theory

[Vecna]

was promised cookies. I want my cookies

Hm.

oh the irony. regardless, day1

[Vecna]

username sure was claiming VT early in the game already, and flashing that flavour around like his personal.armour, much like froppy is doing right now.

One of the provided scum fakeclaims/town role pms maybe? Itd at least explain to a certain extent why TL came out with his actual role pm when forced to claim.

[Vecna]

Anyways, Thun has reaponded Bingle, id like your input. clearly you were intrigued enough to start scouring isos for the references.

[Vecna]

Anyone who was responsible for the A50 death should claim. Anyone with an impending death by biscuit that they know about should claim.

I expected thun, regardless of alignment, to claim the A50 death. The fact that he didn’t is very eyebrows. I should probably take a look at who would nk him here.

I don’t particularly buy into the theory of scum signaling A50 via ‘cookie’. For one thing, nothing in A50’s flip mentions a loud component to his power. Vecna’s cookie post was early D1, and was in fact the first usage of cookie in the thread. I intentionally removed the context to see if anyone would jump on Vecna for it, but if you want to check for yourself it was roughly around post 400.

In order for A50 to be signaling he’d poisoned himself and the scumteam to be able to know they’d been targeted he’d have to be informed his role backfired by the role he targeted, and he thus would have targeted an announcing self voyeurizing reflector. That’s a lot of moving parts and assumptions, and we have two external goo claims that really don’t jive well with the narrativ.

If logical is town, there is necessarily a scum role blocker. RB/GatedVig/VariantReflector/poisonertraitor is a weird scumteam in what we know/have claimed of this setup. Pooky is non targeting. The reflector would be a godfather, scum would have up to 3kpn and there’s a functional miller in the 3p. If instead of RB it’s a tracker that’s not much better, and there’s no reason for there to be a ninja modifier on the cop if there’s no tracker at all.

Thun may well be town

because

he shot chk (which we can assume he did unless the scumteam is exactly LC/Thun) because chk was claimed as SS/Bomb combo going into the night and it’s a risky maneuver to shoot that as scum. It was a bad shot because chk was pretty obvtown at that point, but more the kind of bad shot that comes from town not understanding the game than scum imo.

I’m going to sleep on this, but that’s roughly my thought process atm.

Maybe you should ask the GM? Because, you know, I did my homework, and the GM confirmed that you ARE notified you received a poisonous cookie

[Vecna]

Regardless, the reflector part is not the important part of my case Bingle.

The important part is that all the scum members (at least two that we know of) started signalling eachother within a space of 50 posts with the keywords. They knew about A50 -somehow- and wanted to let him know who the scumteam was. I also KNOW that there are some townies mixed in there. There have to be, because this is not a 5 scum game.

Why are you trying so hard to frame one part of my theory as an improbability to dismiss the whole thing? You were quite interested in my scumcase on Username yesterday. Why not explore this, while even more stuff has come to light? Do your due dilligence?

[Vecna]

Also, the only thing that wouldve needed to happen is for a reflector type ability to be informed of what actions used against it were reflected? I dont see that as a "too out there" ability?

Also, Thun probably wasnt even aware of the chk claim. Froppy not being aware of that either? seems pretty plausible, which would allow the scum to take that shot as well.

Regardless, if my theory is correct, thun is likely a JOAT. There was a RB on N1, but none has been claimed since. He couldve then used a reflector thingy on N2.....and Squiggles was able to allegedly target Thun N3 so no reflection there unless theyre both scum. Mech-wise he probably also has a tracker shot in that case.

[Vecna]

Regardless of everything, theres entirely one too many VT claims for this game. And username was all too happily swinging the flavour about, very early already. Now too, froppy is thinking the flavour is her safeguard. Another strike against the slot, because the way that claim is depended on just screams "SCUM PROVIDED FAKECLAIM".

[Vecna]

Flavourcop to the rescue

[Vecna]

I really dont follow your logic on believing the UN/froppy claim.

If its a fakeclaim, the scum would have the full role PM in their PT, including name and flavour. The mod wouldve made it just as believable as any town PM.

So your reasoning for stating it sounds incredibly believable just rings weird.

Also, ive stated that the interactions happened within a wingspan of like 2 pages of daystart of D2. The fact youre arguing with me over this very important topic, without actually going to read just those two-three pages and inform yourself of whether it is indeed blatant signaling or not.......

I dno. It just smells to me like the alternative of me being wrong somewhere, there being one scum in those three, and you trying to steer us in the wrong direction and creating just enough mislynches that you need.

youre giving me a sour taste Bingle. And I really dont want there to be any right about now.

The username interaction was actually the most damning of the three id say. Since everyone was talking about cookies, but he explicitely used the poison reference, and tried to hide it in a natural sentence.

[Vecna]

For reference, UN repeatedly claimed vanilly hillbilly D1 and D2 and I remember (but cannot find) a post where he said looking up his character's name led to an address. The flavor claim checks out with that.

As such (and given Vecna's rather helpful insinuation that I am a flavor cop, which I will neither confirm nor deny), I fully believe that to actually be Froppy's flavor, which means either A) scum have access to the vanilla role PM formatting (Likely) or B) Froppy is town.

I'm taking it as slight but not strong evidence of being town that Froppy's last name is not Rosewood. This is not by any means a mechanical clear. If in fact I am a flavor cop, I would like to make it explicit that I did not target Froppy or username at any point. I would in fact have targeted in pooky/DGB/Alch with a strong preference towards doing so in that exact order.

Like, this is an awfull lot of words just to say that you believe he is being truthfull about the flavour he claims.

Im also surprised that you do not take those posts of "my flavour is a street" as a potential traditional scumploy to make their fakeclaim more believable later on.

[Vecna]

Compare the two readslists that TL did.

Notice how he updates his reason on everyone but his townreads. He's finding reasons to shuffle around all his non-townreads, -except- for pisskop and username. He gives no new reasons for reads development there. Hes trying to remain neutral, and keeps stating theyre both content rich. The exact same reasoning in both lists.

I wonder why

Spoiler:

here's a quick lead rist, don't send me to the aether if it's wrong because I skimmed everyone's ISO for this:

TR

TL

NT

HN

NS

SL

SR

3P

[Town]

DrippingGoofball

- Has a claimed inno by Pooky, no reason to doubt said inno as of now.

Logicalicaltist

- With great pushing and town initiative this is the townie we need.

PookyTheMagicalBear

- The GIFposting reduces content but I have a feeling the informed claim is true so I am putting this at townlean level.

Almost50

- Still seems like his towny self, but I have a feeling A50 is more reserved here.

chkflip

- He's starting to look more promising as time goes on...

pisskop

- Memey but an ISO skim looked content-rich.

Iecerint

- A decently good ISO, 423 is probably a good post.

Lavender

- Not much content in the ISO but I feel a townish vibe.

Alchemist21

- Claimed townsiding 3P, I don't have a reason to doubt this.

username

- I'm not sure what impression I get from the ISO. At least it's content-rich.

Pine

- Unreadable due to lack of game-related info, defaulting to hard null (assuming V/LAishness here)

gobbledygook

- Lurker with contentless ISO, 126 is approaching info but actually isn't info

Doctor Drew

- Memey, totally not concerned with appearances. However his content looks a little scummy.

Elsa Jay

- I don't like the ISO. Sorry, but I just don't. It doesn't ping me town.

Vecna

- I really don't like the ISO, the readlist is bad in light of future info and 696 feels abrasive to me

[Scum]

VOTE: Vecna

A lead rist for the crazy mess that is D2:

TR

TL

NT

HN

NS

SL

SR

3P

[Town]

DrippingGoofball

- Has a claimed inno by Pooky, no reason to doubt said inno as of now. Still trying to push an Alchemist exile though.

Logicalicaltist

- Town leader, on a scummy trend D2 so take with a grain of salt.

PookyTheMagicalBear

- The GIFposting reduces content but I have a feeling the informed claim is true so I am putting this at townlean level. Hasn't posted yet in D2.

Almost50

- Still seems like his towny self, but I have a feeling A50 is more reserved here.

Galron

- Laid-back townie who contributes content to the game.

pisskop

- Memey but an ISO skim looked content-rich.

Vecna

- Starting to look very towny now.

Alchemist21

- Claimed townsiding 3P. Apparently logical got roleblocked? Alch might be fakeclaiming, but this will resolve itself D3.

Doctor Drew

- Seeing an upward trend here.

username

- I'm not sure what impression I get from the ISO. At least it's content-rich. Neutral trend here.

Bingle

- Feels like Bingle to me, yep. This isn't TRable though.

Elsa Jay

- Still as scummy as ever, might even be on a downward trend.

chkflip

- Votes with scummy intent, also D1 got stalled to heck and back despite his pushiness so I think that was planned as well.

[Scum]

[Vecna]

Ill also note that Thun and Froppyname also fits with any convential/proper VC theory. Spread out over all wagons most of the time. Early on any of the scum wagons on D2 to look good.

Thun had the issue with flavour of his role. Even after seeing more information come to light, he remains the only one without a unique flavour. Due to the signaling to the 3P, I also refuse to believe scum killed A50 since they knew what he was about.

Both pisskop and username were happily participating, until A50 signalled he was about to die (and wagons on Thun/TL were the main D2 wagons). Then they both stopped and replaced out.

Username played a very good game overall. I noted earlier that the main argument against him was that he was too damn clean. Town is never sounding that well, without anything to discount. Every post was focussed on sounding good, and in hindsight, a lot of it was also devoted to making TL sound good by focussing on interacting a ton with him. Then came that one scummy post I called him out over, and he blew up, and gave me a speech, where he addressed me like he knew for a fact I was town. Theres a certain way the great scum players often attack you, where it shines through that they know youre town, and they have to beat you with a great sounding argument. You can often tell theres no suspicion of it coming from a scum player thats attacking them for bullshit reasons. They knew youre reasons are pure, but they have to crush you all the same.

[Vecna]

Honestly just mostly going off of other people's reads for this one.

VOTE: TL

Obvious busvote is obvious. No need for reasoning if you know its going to flip scum, right?

[Vecna]

alch promised us cookies if we visited him.

lets hear what he has to say.

Sorry, dude. I'm out. Would you care for a cinnamon biscuit instead?

This is still clearly signalling things. He's clearly signalling that he sent that cookie. And to make sure its not lost to the recipient -he even adds the biscuit part of his role-.

A50 wanted to signal he's the one sending out the poisonous biscuits. And he signalled he was about to die.

[Vecna]

The main problem with the competing wagons is that the deadline poisons them

Going to no-execute is way worse than two players you aren't sure of. Lavender town slipped hard and it was too late to fix by then without making day one a complete waste

I wanna look back at who hopped on Lavender after I started that one rolling.

I expect two scum on that wagon. One is possible, more than two with competing town wagons isn't likely. All town is possible but real unlikely after the slip.

And this, a few posts later is the most damning signaling post.

Bingle, you really think this is a coincidence?

Do you really think

The main problem with the competing wagons is that the deadline

poisons

them

is a natural sentence anyone would use?

Pisskop could still just be a setup. Setup by A50 to look bad, since A50 apparently knew he was about to die. He could still just be a towny using the cookie phrase to genuinely want info from Alchemist.

Username is not in that position. He deliberately tried to hide his interaction with A50. He deliberately used the poison phrase instead of the cookie or biscuit. He hid it in a post to make it look natural, talking about competing wagons and whatnot. In a vacuum he could be scum with anyone else of the remaining players, and any number of events couldve transpired that resulted in this outcome.

[Vecna]

Looking at the role PMs of A50 and TL, I’m inclined to agree with Bingle that biscuits was more likely to be a signal between Traitor and scum.

Logical is backing Thun’s claim so Thun can only be scum if Logicalicaltist is also scum and they’re willing to tie themselves to each other like this which is extremely unlikely.

The poison comment from Username is odd. There is a phrase called “poisoning the well” which is common. It’s not exactly the same thing as what Username was saying but it could be in the same vein. To call it damning hinges on the scumteam knowing something incredibly specific about A50’s role. That knowledge could be possible if they rolecopped A50 or if they reflected the biscuit back at A50 and were informed what they reflected. Given the above point that Thun almost certainly killed chk, the simplest and most likely explanation of A50’s death is that the scumteam killed him and they would not have done that if they thought A50 was their Traitor so the signaling hypothesis falls apart here. For it to hold up the scumteam has to be exactly Thun, Logical, and Username, and I just don’t see scum tying themselves to each other for a vig claim after losing one. I doubt there are even 3 more scum remaining because 4 group scum + 1 traitor with the potential to have 3 kills a Night is too much power, even for a bastard game.

It might not be right now but I’m going to go through A50’s iso and see what their reads were like. I can’t remember how most people were reading A50 at the time. Was he widely Townread?

Nice circular reasoning lol.

Hint: Nightkills can also be tracked. Cultist can totally be town tracking the nightkill

Hint: A50 signalled he was dying, thus scum killing him is absolutely not more likely than him dying from his own poisonous biscuit as he signalled.

Hint: Biscuits and cookies are synonyms for each other (esp in brittain/europe, murica butchered the meaning behind biscuits to something else I believe). A50 even made a joke about it, asking whether they preferred a biscuit over a cookie.

Im not sure if youre purposefully being ignorant because you want us to mislynch again so you can win, but eesh

[Vecna]

VOTE: Alchemist

Maybe ill have higher chances of getting my froppy flip if this is the alternative

[Vecna]

I swept all your highlights away, but its good to know you only care to comment when you get votes on you.

Also, you state you agree with bingle that people were signalling with the word biscuit instead, but then proceed to pretend that no signaling took place?

Your entire argument hinges on the fact that you did not account for the nightkill being trackable.

You can call it reachy all you want, but youre the one who cant logic properly. But maybe either you or Bingle is just informed of what really happened and youre trying to white knight full-force without realizing how bad your logic actually is.

[Vecna]

I guess its also possible that TL received a poisonous biscuit and that that is why he was bussed and scum thought A50 was a hostile 3p or w/e

[Vecna]

React to the important parts instead

[Vecna]

There are quite a bunch of ways scum couldve known about A50's shit:

-The far-fetched reflector theory (still quite possible with pisskop being a JOAT that RB'd Cultist N1 and activated the reflection N2)

-Simple rolecop

-Being targetted by A50. Notice how _NOONE_ has claimed being targetted by it while A50 potentially has had 3 nights of sending out cookies and people are informed of receiving a poisonous biscuit.

[Vecna]

And once again:

A50 literally posted the cookie monster Gif. He wanted certain people to know that he had sent em those biscuits. Why would a scum traitor do that? Unless he was certain it was his teammate he had sent a cookie to?

The only alternative is that he just decided not to sent anyone any biscuits and was just setting people up to take the fall.

[Vecna]

Since you and pooky are such believers, wheres the vote support?

[Vecna]

Hmm guess its only been 2 nights since its day 3 now.

[Vecna]

VOTE: Froppy

[Vecna]

LogicalCaltist, did you ever get notified that you were roleblocked N1? What response did you get from the GM the night you tracked Alchemist?

[Vecna]

Yet LC was at the bottom of your readslist, and you were actively disagreeing with me over my solve?

You believed the flavourclaim.

So, im not complaining about the vote, but how does that fit exactly in what you've been preaching?

[Vecna]

Vecna said something along the lines of Thun being a reflector who killed A50 doesn't add up because Logical said he tracked Thun on N2. There has been way too many speculation going on about the N2 killings and the only explanation I could think of those deaths would be mafia killed A50 and Chkflip was vig killed. Looking on the wagon and interaction on TL, Bingle, DGB, and Pooky look good and that leaves the others unknown which are Froppy, Vecna, Elsa, Logical, Galron, Titus and Alchemist.

this does not ring like a town replacement into a slot that knows they actively did vig chk.

[Vecna]

anyways, can we just get this over with?

im really hating the line bingles taking here, and his progression just feels like majorly white knighting or protecting scum, but its not enough for me to not want to lynch in froppy/newslot.

[Vecna]

youre not yet voting froppy yet btw pook

[Vecna]

oh sorry

[Vecna]

Not really thrilled with a Froppy lynch. Prefer LC

Tell me why.

I have had LC and Temporal as partners ever since the Thun wagon.

Vecna kept saying reasonable doubt. So I am not inclined to listen to Vecna today.

So, because I was wrong before I am wrong again? Or is it just because you doubt my alignment?

Regardless, look at my argument. I was wrong on LC, it happens. Doesnt mean you should discount everything else I say. Else everyone might as well replace out as soon as they are wrong on a single read.

[Vecna]

I was wrong on LC

Did he flip?

Oh I meant TL

[Vecna]

Well lets hope I was wrong a second time I guess.

Really wondering how pooky both believed my case and believed LC!scum fits within that

[Vecna]

Vecna, talk to me. How are you feeling? What are your SRs?

Definately not you, thats for sure.

Im sad my theory was (mostly/partially) wrong. Mostly because itll look bad on me, and finding the last scum is going to be tricky and difficult.

I guess it could still be the Thun slot, all the flipped scum -have- been talking about cookies in that timeframe. However, then Bingle's point about the townpower not being a thing becomes so true.

Im mostly just puzzled how I keep managing to see patterns and then they turn out to be flawed.

[Vecna]

They thought we were masons, which was implied. They could have picked me or GifMan but they picked me because GifMan's reads are better than mine.

The nightkill really signals cluelessness, or wants to attempt to appear as such.

Most veteran players shouldve seen here that pooky was clearly implying the one sided role that just identifies you, but is not a two way

[Vecna]

Good job Pooky picking up my breadcrumbs.

Oh you had to crumb it for him to know? I assumed the mod just edited out the part of the role pm that confirmed you.

[Vecna]

I think there's only 1 scum left. Hmm. Wonder who.

But yeah points against Galron for instantly trying to exe the Vigi today.

What the fuck even is this setup?

We have

JK
Ninjacop
Mason
Beloved Mason
Vengeful

Poisoner Traitor
Gated Vig
Tracker

A Claimed 3p.
A Claimed even night vig.
A Claimed Goo.

Unclaimed is just me and Vecna? I don't see how Adorable can NOT be town here, tbh.

Didn't Vec claim VT or am I just remembering wrong?

Dont think I claimed my role yet

[Vecna]

Vecna is looking pretty scummy for "figuring out the cookies" and possibly reaching a wrong conclusion.

I had a genuine theory. It still could prove correct.

Im still suspicious of the people that already seemed informed my theory was wrong, without having the proper process of reaching that conclusion, but im potentially also just biased.

[Vecna]

So is anyone understanding EJ's roleclaim? What it does etc?

[Vecna]

Anyways, Thunslot is definately not our lynch today since he'll die tonight or be confirmed town tomorrow.

[Vecna]

Adorable - likely dies tonight due to NK (if the mech-analysis is correct) - 6 remaining tomorrow
Titus - dies tomorrow night due to NK - 4 remaining T+1
DrippingGoofball - Dies last for the double NK

that leaves max 3 lynches and a vig shot to sort this pool:
Alchemist21
Bingle
Froppy
Galron
Elsa Jay
Vecna

The problem is that if Adorable is town here, and gets off a shot tonight and dies (which we need, in case scum does not kill that slot to verify the claim), we might have the problem of scum potentially having the last target-able ability (if theres a scum PR remaining) and being able to recruit Alch to their side to fullfull the 3p win condition. This could mean that we need to sort this shit in 2 lynches. Unless we get the vig to shoot the 3p. Which once again means, unconfirmed vig, if left alive.

[Vecna]

Anyways, I have no freaking clue if its Bingle, Galron or Froppy. Gun to my head id probably kill Bingle, but id not be surprised by the other 2 being the guy.

Even though its hard to sort the EJ slot, I feel by now that that slot is more likely to be town than the other 3. Ill give adorable a pass for today to see what happens tonight, and because of the mechanical/town power level argument that the slot almost has to be town.

Im really curious wtf happened behind the scenes this game.....did A50 just not use his ability at all? Did a scum receive it and was bussed?

[Vecna]

does town really need that vig though? Setup-wise?

Tracker on scum is weaksauce, cant even find the cop

The bookie requires some very specific play-pattern and game controlling by scum to yield anything. It backfired this time, and TL was even called out for exactly what he was doing (informed vecna argument coming up).

The usefulness of the cookies depends entirely on the scumhunting ability of the traitor, and might backfire hard for scum. No town got killed by it apparently.

The negative utility on DGB probably means we do need the vig I guess though, since that equates to a scumrole slightly stronger than a 1shot vig. Also if Alchemist is a thing, without that visiting role......

Yeah ok, Adorable get to prove a shot tonight.

[Vecna]

Welp. Shite.

Anyway I'm still a goo not good for town so visiting me isn't the best. But if I'm killed you'll have a way to know who's the bad guy.

Wait, so, this claim is supposedly more negative utility for town right?

[Vecna]

And how did you respond to chk's claim?

[Vecna]

I was thinking he was legit. You know, a day kill for town and me for a night one. the thing I didn't trust was the Vigi claim for awhile. Then I saw the Bookie and Traitor with kills... So I guess in my head that just meant town gets 3 ways to get an extra kill like scum got an extra 2.

This game had a way to have way more deaths in a single day/night. We mostly avoided them.

Except he was claiming the exact same role you now claim to have, and you never responded to that at all.

[Vecna]

I mean, its not a terrible way to sort out two slots I guess

[Vecna]

except.....yeah

[Vecna]

scum vigs are not lame, even uninformed ones or one with a moderate gimmick.

In fact, the cookie role is so ridiculous I almost started spinning theories of it being a janitor-type fakery where A50 did not actually have that role.....but with all the softing going around.....

I dno, I still think he's way more likely than not telling the truth.

I dont believe for a second the scum would have a scum absorber along all their current revealed roles, and claiming that absorbtion shit is a death sentence if youre targeted but cannot tell what you received.

[Vecna]

VOTE: Bingle

Im fine with being wrong here, because if im wrong it doesnt matter. However, if im right this needs to be done, because Bingle will have automapped his road to victory in every detail and will still win this game for scum.

I disagree with his assertion that he has to be near lock-town here. He found his vote onto TL very easily d2. This couldve also happened because I called out the swap in reads from TL/LC to chkflip and he just wanted to hedge the scumteam bets (either get the chk lynch and a vig, or have by far their strongest player positioned really well for the rest of the game). Maybe TL got a poisoned cookie and that is why he was an easy bus target (and why A50 got scared after to use it again).

The day we ended up lynching LC, Bingle started the day with LC at the bottom of his readslist, yet found reasons to be voting froppy and not being on the wagon, despite majorly disagreeing with my theory.

I think overall Bingle's play is characterized by not thoroughly hunting/analyzing things, and especially not really considering all angles. He seems to be more concerned to be on the right side of things and people.

For example:
-He is not concerned with the possibility of EJ having fooled us at all. He does not bring up the awkward late hammer on LC. He is not concerned with the role shenanigans, the very odd overlap between EJ/chk's role and the weird way EJ navigated these. A scum Bingle would know this slot is town and prefer to have their vote on his side for endgame purposes.

-He seems to just be interested in the current day's lynch, and finding the right arguments that fit to push that lynch through. You can bet your ass that a scum bingle is going to bring up the above argument tomorrow though, and use them to push through EJ then. Why does he not mention this today? Because he needs EJ's vote for a smooth lynch that goes according to plan today.

-The argument for Galron today hinges quite strongly on Galron fully agreeing with my argument/theory. However, pooky did the same thing. DGB did the same thing. The only two people that openly spoke out against it are a 3p that never got back to my counter-arguments, and Bingle, who frankly also did not seem to want to engage too much on it, besides "just not finding it plausible" (but still found other reasons apparently for a froppy vote).

Now, im going to be putting a BIG disclaimer on this. Im fully aware this might all be bullshit, and the simple explanation could very well be that Bingle is just having a great game. I know youre not going to be taking me too serious (and you probably shouldnt because I have been quite off for a number of things this game)......However, Bingle is dangerous as scum. Im not going to suggest lynching him today, but this shit has to be said, since everyone seems to be townreading him. And this is how he navigates the game as scum. He is articulate, he will have arguments that sound good to everyone, yet you have to look for the things he is not attending to and that he's not interesting in analyzing.

rant off. im probably just going to incite more laughter/mockery in the god thread, but this is a possibility that I want people to take seriously.

[Vecna]

I am just noticing this post where Vecna is fighting TL's attempt to blast out chkflip. That's very townie.

yeah I'm not sure why Vecna is trying to throw a small look of shade at me

also I'd like to know at least something about why Vecna townreads chkflip though I don't think I'm getting that answer

Who says im townreading him?

Im trying to grasp why the fuck I got zero traction yesterday, while the person that was obv-clueless-town flailing about got hammered, even after making a super believable claim.

The shift in reads from people seems to just appear out of thin air.

Chkflip really didnt do anything to become more scummy. I really didnt do much to suddenly become more towny. Yet, the reads suddenly just do this shift. Yeah, I feel there is high scum incentive to push and cuddle this way if Im wrong on my earlier scumread on Chkflip.

Ill add to this though: Chkflip was a lot scummier on d1 than he has been on d2 so far. Yet noone was sheeping me. So now, im indeed highly suspicious

Exactly. And someone in scumchat likely told them both that they could rely on me to keep tunneling Chkflip (like i was doing d1) and get an easy mislynch there.

I confronted Bingle several times about whether he noticed these interactions (because he also suddenly voted TL there after I called out the major shift) yet he never aknowledged it or how bloody obv-town it oughta make me.

[Vecna]

I'd bet my left nut there's at least one scum that was watching the thread and didn't post

I'm interested in this thought, and would like to know more.

I'm decidedly not interested in the angle of "Who was actively pushing wagons?" unless you're going to go into what about the individual pushes was scummy.

I can get behind the idea that all of chk, logical, and TL look bad for similar reasons. The flippy wagon seems like a shit push from where I sit.

I fully intend to ignore Alch's existence today as a lynch target, with the sole exception of pointing out that role as claimed he actively wants to lynch scum because scum is more like than not to kill the PR's he needs to win the game. If he's groupscum, he's probably a reflexive roleblocker. I'm fine with letting him have a day to scumhunt and prove himself useful.

Note also that in this post Bingle is keeping his options open between two scum, and the scum target for their activated vig.

Giving him the option of either voting chk and activating the vig power, or bussing his teammates if he is scum.

[Vecna]

Im still majorly conflicted about the alchemist thing.

Pro lynching him:
-you make some very good points that the two flipped scum both protected him heavily, which they also did to protect eachother. They even set up the lie that scum wouldve roleblocked someone from helping the 3P
-the mod mistake is very gimmicky
-He's clearly not going to get help from town going forward to fulfill his win condition, so whats to say he wont get persuaded later on by scum to vote alongside them in a 4way.

Against lynching him:
-Alchemist seemed to be doing entirely his own thing at the start of day2. Was not interested in the chkflip thing whatsoever (but then again, noone seemed to be helping those 2 in their push)
-I disagree the cop would never cop Alch there. Either he survives and might get a guilty if alch is lying, or the cop dies, and now the claimed 3p has an ability that might prove himself and help town out.
-I do think the role fits somewhat in this setup. Everything seems to focus on shit visiting shit and weird ways of killing things that are clearly aimed at creating dramatic night outcomes (Elsa's claimed role, biscuits, plenty of visiting roles that work in interesting ways if absorbed).

[Vecna]

whats your plan for winning now, alch?

[Vecna]

Do we have any players left who claimed a targeting role?

I might still have a surprise in my pocket

[Vecna]

Do we have any players left who claimed a targeting role?

I might still have a surprise in my pocket

Don't waste it on Alchemist and I am likely dead tonight

I doubt that

[Vecna]

I am not voting Alch. Scum were hit in dpite of you DGB. They didn't defend Alch because their lives depended on it. They whiteknighted him of they defended him at all. You and Vecna are so exhausting right now.

Im exhausting for being suspicious of bingle, or just communicating with DGB?



I

[Vecna]

I mean, given how I had exactly the type of role pooky had in Saw.......it was the most obvious thing in the game that it was a one way street. The negative utility and pooky not actually knowing it was DGB was lost on me though.

[Vecna]

just one of those games

[Vecna]

Not gonna fight you Titus. Itll just make the problem worse.

But youre wrong. But do what u gotta do

[Vecna]

well, if you dont lynch alch you get to pick two in the worst case scenario.

Youre going to have to narrow it down.

[Vecna]

Also, DGB, remember that scum were all told in their role pm that there was a Paula out there that -might- be helpfull to their cause.

Its quite likely they believed that alch had the paula flavour, and might have a joint wincon with scum or w/e or a mechanism to scumside.

That could also strongly influence them to try and save the slot.

[Vecna]

not in regards to it literally being in their role pm that a paula is out there, no?

[Vecna]

Paranoid Gun Owner. It's on the tin. I'm the variant that always alerts, so I mentioned Compulsive earlier to explain it.

I am not at my desk, can you name players that voiced increased suspicion of you after that claim?

Besides Titus voting me, nobody's really cared. Even Titus moved back to Vecna.

you felt I didnt care huh?

[Vecna]

Well it's the truth, especially when I'm offering to get shot by the Vigilante. Or did you forget that?

offering to kill two townies, did you even think that through at all?

that means if we mislynch the game could be over after today

[Vecna]

sounds more the type of thing scum thinks theyll get townread over, while they dont recognize the huge flaw in the thought

[Vecna]

that means if we mislynch the game could be over after today

This is the type of little thing that makes me think Vecna is town, btw.

We have 9 alive. In order for a reasonable "We die tonight" scenario, there have to be at least 5 town deaths. If there can still be 5 town deaths after flipping 2 scum killing roles, this was never really a game. Scum Vecna is 100% aware of that, but the statement looks natural to me.


I'm also not opposed to the EJ wagon. It's probably slightly better mechanically

because

Adorable can't shoot there. My gut does say that Gal is the scum and EJ is town though, FWIW.

....?

You even reading what was being talked about?

Mislynch = 1
Townvig shooting town pgo = 2
scum killing DGB = 1
Scum getting extra nightkill due to DGB death = 1

No scum ability except the NK involved.

This is the type of post why I think bingle is scum. He doesnt care about the contents about what he's commenting on. He just grabs a person he doesnt need mislynched, and finds reasons that make no sense from a town pov to format further reasons for his townread.

[Vecna]

that means if we mislynch the game could be over after today

This is the type of little thing that makes me think Vecna is town, btw.

We have 9 alive. In order for a reasonable "We die tonight" scenario, there have to be at least 5 town deaths. If there can still be 5 town deaths after flipping 2 scum killing roles, this was never really a game. Scum Vecna is 100% aware of that, but the statement looks natural to me.


I'm also not opposed to the EJ wagon. It's probably slightly better mechanically

because

Adorable can't shoot there. My gut does say that Gal is the scum and EJ is town though, FWIW.

Your post was pretty convincing I must reckon.

The post was actually completely NAI and any allignment couldve done the basic math on how 5 townies could die if a townvig were to shoot a town PGO after a mislynch

[Vecna]

anyways, whatever.

Unless someone starts agreeing with me ill just shut up about this since whoever knows what goes on in town bingle's mind at any given day of the week anyway.

I just hope this wont have to result in an I told you so

[Vecna]

Titus where are you. do stuff?

[Vecna]

Alchemist though. Not a town vote.

If scum has any type of targetable ability left that vote is bought. (or if they can just lie convincingly about it)

If Alch feels town hasnt helped him enough and he loses regardless, the vote might be bought.

a 4way tomorrow is likely a loss.

But that is not what the argument was about. Deflection?

[Vecna]

Like, its almost an argument just to eliminate alch here.

We dont want to use the vig there. We have no leverage over the slot. We have nothing to offer the slot for its vote. Getting down to a 4way means thats quite likely to result in a no lynch since its against the 3p's wincon to vote for scum there. Its against the 3p wincon to vote for scum at any moment going forward.

Also, 5 visiting roles only in the game that we know of.

Not taking the risk of mislynching right here right now is a minimal upside, and not being able to further reduce our lynchpool sucks. But it might be worth doing it to buy the extra mislynch later on.

[Vecna]

I really wonder how your wincon would interact with a PGO.

Do you still die/win/escape if you were to shoot EJ.

Because that interaction in itself almost feels like either of you is spinning little lies.

[Vecna]

In fact, half the abilities that would let you win and leave the game are killing abilities

Such weird design to add the kingmaking stuff to a 3P that gets to exit and win, and quite likely also affect the outcome of the town vs scum battle while doing so, without fear of repercussion

[Vecna]

I kinda want to vote Vecna even if there's a decent chance he is the townbeard. He defended both scum lynches and now he's all protesting as if pinned down.

Im just trying to find the last scum, as you tried to claim you would.

But keep voting me even though you know im town.

[Vecna]

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