Mafia Invictus Redux [Game Over]

[Lukewarm]

VOTE: dwlee

I am ready to end the day and twin with Dunn.

I think tomorrow will be very enlightening

[Lukewarm]

Do not believe Kovu. They’ve lied before on investigates and results.

There’s also mala to consider.

Fire confirmed they outed info to them. So they would have had to have lied in their neighborhood in advance to set up for lying about it out here.

I tried to ask questions about Mala and I was told to stop.

What is your read on Dwlee? Do you want them to live the day?

[Lukewarm]

You’re basically telling me that a bunch of investigators are 1 shot and all of the power roles in this game have outted on d1.
This is something prism would absolutely punish so we’ve put ourselves at a disadvantage at best.

No. I believe that at least 1 of you+Baltar, Mala, or Kovu are lying. But no one wants to sort through that today.

[Lukewarm]

VOTE: dwlee

I am ready to end the day and twin with Dunn.

I think tomorrow will be very enlightening

FTR, If I die overnight as a consequence of this and my invictus does not go off, power-lim lukewarm. There's a very decent chance his current read pivot is being done as an excuse to justify killing me.

FTR, I will just out it.

I choose a player, and if we are Invictus targeting the same player, our Invictus target dies. I am functionally a gated vigilante. That is why, when Bell outed as confirmed town I asked him this question.

@Bell

You being presumably a friendly neighbor (or something similar) but hitting up Baltar instead of me makes me sad.

I'm struggling to figure out your reads this game.

If you had a day vig shot, where would it be?

This was both to figure out who Bell would be on, AND to crumb that I was the person i would be the person who vig'ed that person over night.

That is also why I did not want to twin with Marci, because i did not want her to have a say in the vig target. It is also why I wanted to twin with Kovu, once Bell didn't work out - I was going to give them a vig shot.

It is also why I did not immediately agree to Twin with Dunn, because I was not sure that I wanted to Vig Gorilla.

Now I am.

So, now I am down for twinning with Dunn.

I think that gorilla is just scum here, trying to scare me off of my current game plan.

@Gorilla, if there is a world where you are town, probably consider if you want to go out invictusing the town vigilante instead of forcing the scum team to kill me. Because they absolutely have to kill me at some point.

[Lukewarm]

The timing of that vote flop onto the lead wagon is a "get me into the night phase and away from the person calling me out" move.

Ah yes, the classic scum move of calling someone scum, and then promptly killing them so they flip town.

You are not even trying to make your read make sense anymore I see.

[Lukewarm]

I'm struggling to believe that gorilla looks at my play around marci all game, and is ever worried that I am actively trying to pocket her.

VOTE: gorilla


I think it more likely that it is scum not wanting me to write marci off as town and also not wanting me written off as town (added to meuhs point about his reaction to bell)

Not to beetle juice gorilla calling me and dunn parters or anything, but I actually think that I would prefer a Dunn elim to a dwlee elim.

Gorilla I did notice that you were pushing dunn. However, I am not convinced on either of your alignments enough to use that to clear either of you. Obviously, if either of you do flip scum then I will re-evaluate the other, but definitely not taking either of you off for the other one.

Also, you are not my biggest scum read rn. Cakez is. You were just simultaneously on the bottom half of my reads and an existing wagon that could reasonably go through with out me needing to commit major energy into making it happen. At a time where I actively didn't want a Meuh elim, and she was the other leading wagon

Gorilla, cakez is actually, in this moment, scaring me about the dunn elim then you ever would have :/

Laying in bed thinking about this game, and I've convinced myself of a gorilla town read

The more I think about these posts, the more I hate them.

They seems to be approaching the topic as "come up with something that scum could never post, or having thoughts that someone could be town is scummy and fake" -- when that is literally never how this game or reads work.

Scum can post literally anything. This is a game more about looking at a post, and asking whether is seems more likely something comes from town or scum, and imo, those reasons seemed more likely to come from town. Based on the difference in how scum or town approach building town reads.

But because there is a possibility that scum could make them (and I agree that that is a possibility) Gorilla is completely dismissing it, and not actually engaging in whether that logic would be more likely to come from town or scum.

VOTE: dwlee

I am ready to end the day and twin with Dunn.

I think tomorrow will be very enlightening

luke, can you talk about your progression on gorilla? you voted them, but unless ive missed something, most of your responses and posts about them seem to be about yourself and defensive, not really saying a whole lot about why gorilla is scum. the main reason i see is that you don't believe their claim that you're pocketing marci is believable

you then are somewhat reconciliatory towards gorilla, saying you would prefer a dunn lim to a dwlee lim (right after voting dwlee, and then immediately after that, going extremely hard on cakez for voting dunn)

then you said you got to a townread on gorilla without reasoning

and then now, gorilla is criticizing your townread on dunn, and you push back hard again, with language that makes it sound like you're scumreading gorilla

and then you vote dwlee and say you want to end the day

why did you townread them? why did you say to them that you would prefer a dunn elim to a dwlee elim, while voting dwlee and attacking cakez? what is your read on them now?

Gorilla was vaguely bottom half of my reads, but not a strong read by any means. Null:scum at worst walking into this day phase. Largely for not having a lasting impression on me Day 1, which I do find more often then not scum land themselves into that grey area of my reads. But, not a lot of thoughts going on there.

My read on them dipped a bit based on the comments he made about me and Marci, because that post catching his eye made more sense to me if he was scum then if he was town. Partly because he read so much into it. I said I was dropping my reaction test on her. He read that I was calling her town. And he apparently did not like that. Both the misread of the situation, and not liking a possible miselim slipping away made more sense as coming from scum then from town.

He was still not my strongest scum read, but no one wanted to kill my strongest two scum reads, he was now a scum lean, and he had a wagon on him. Hence the vote.

The reversal to town reading him was me thinking about the way that he caught that dunn made my to kill list in 1541, and then followed up again in 1552. Because that seemed like the kind of thing that you would catch if you were really reading along to my posts trying to sort me. Also seemed like an odd thing to fixate on as scum, given I was never being voted out today given my claim so he, as scum, would not really be incintivized to look for a reason to push me out today.

But, now I am struggling to see how any of his more recent arguments are being made in good faith and I want him dead.

[Lukewarm]

For the record, if Luke legitimately believed I was scum and was going to vig me by twinning with Dunn, I don't think there's any chance in hell he'd actually announce it in-thread, because mafia have invictus too and doing so would invite a reprisal. More likely he's trying to justify a kill that would otherwise earn him the ire of the people townreading me. It's all very performative and telegraphed.

Luke, I'd like your response to this because it is a legitimate point.

My thoughts were that if gorilla is scum, his invictus will be on me either way, so it literally didn't matter.

But, on the chance that I was wrong, him knowing that I was a vig that the scum team would have to kill would lead to him moving it.

Basically, saw a potential benefit if I was wrong, and no down side to outing.

If he is scum, and I don't out, I die to his invictus.
If he is scum, and I do out, I die to his invictus.

If he is town, and I don't out. I die to his invictus
If he is town, and I do out, there was a chance that I don't die to his invictus

[Lukewarm]

I was asked why I outed, and I answered.

If you're taking me down with you, i'll make that trade.

[Lukewarm]

Also to be honest, I just realized that marci is a survivor playing survivor in a mafia game and we should probably just kill that even though from a meta perspective I shouldn’t.

wtf does this mean

He is saying that he thinks you are more focused on surviving then solving.

[Lukewarm]

when luke first partial claimed i thought it was def a vig that he was hinting at

but then as time went on i felt like the way that he played the day and played out the claim didn't really actually make sense for him to be a vigilante, bc it would be massively more beneficial for scum to not know what was coming, so i started to assume he was something else

and then he just claims vig anyway

so im kinda in agreement with gorilla there

My play around my ability has largely been built around

1) ensuring that I successfully fire, because failing to fire at all seemed like a real possibility.
and
2) liking the person that we were Invictus targetting.

Like, first I was trying to get a feel for Bell. And if I liked his scum read, great.
Then, when that wouldn't work, I realized that I could likely guess someone being on Enchant, but he is not really someone I would want to vig because he is someone who, if scum, never end games. So not a priority for me.

So, I wanted to find someone who would agree to pair with me intentionally, and that person would work with me on mutually picking a target. So, I outed the need to pair.

Now that I am scum reading gorilla, and dunn has already offered to pair with me while targetting gorilla, that seems like a good enough way to ensure both of those things happen.

[Lukewarm]

4. Does everyone have access to Invictus?

• It can be expected that most or all players have access to Invictus.

I am operating under the assumption that scum have Invictus as well.

[Lukewarm]

That is actually one of the first things that I checked once I got my role lol

[Lukewarm]

I could likely guess someone being on Enchant, but he is not really someone I would want to vig because he is someone who, if scum, never end games. So not a priority for me.

How is this a downside to shooting Enchant? You'd be saving town a day phase if he's scum.

Why would I prioritize shooting someone who will likely die to invictus at some point this game, regardless of his alignment.

Even if he some how manages to dodge invictus's as scum, he doesn't win the game as the end game scum.

I would rather shoot a strong scum read tbh.

[Lukewarm]

If he is scum, and I don't out, I die to his invictus.

Would scum have invictus shots? That seems to auto-punish a correct town vig.

Just @the thread in general.

Baltar is absolutely someone who would fake townslip like this as scum. So frankly, this statement should be treated as NAI

[Lukewarm]

@Marci, will you commit to planting your invictus on gorilla overnight if Dunn dies today?

I think that Baltar's recent vote switch from dwlee to dunn is in hopes to keep me from being able to shoot there.

[Lukewarm]

Even if he some how manages to dodge invictus's as scum, he doesn't win the game as the end game scum

having scum!enchant in Xylo sounds fucking terrible.

And I think that the most likely out come for enchant this game, is that at some point someone will invictus him - regardless of his alignment.

It feels like you and I fundamentally think differently about both the use of a vigilante shot and playing with Enchant.

[Lukewarm]

@Marci, will you commit to planting your invictus on gorilla overnight if Dunn dies today?

I think that Baltar's recent vote switch from dwlee to dunn is in hopes to keep me from being able to shoot there.

are you scumreading vp now?

I think that if gorilla flips scum, he should be looked at for that interaction.

Baltar has made no real comments about starting to town read dwlee or about scum reading dunn harder, and the topic of conversation has largely been around the use of my vig shot.

If gorilla flips town, then it doesn't matter, and ignore all of my reads I guess. But, if he flips scum, that was hella suspicious imo

[Lukewarm]

@Marci, will you commit to planting your invictus on gorilla overnight if Dunn dies today?

I think that Baltar's recent vote switch from dwlee to dunn is in hopes to keep me from being able to shoot there.

I should emphasize: Luke's literal only concern right now is being able to kill me. He is absolutely flailing scum. A town PR in this situation would be concerned with making their perspective clear and leaving legacy reads. He is not doing that. He is playing purely reactively. It is not town motivated whatsoever.

This feels like a perspective flip.

If gorilla thinks that I am scum, then gorilla should think that I can just use the regular night kill on him if Dunn goes over and I don't have a twin option on him.

But he knows that the only way that I can kill him is with my twinning ability, because he knows I am town.

-----

And yes, atm I am solely focused on being able to kill him, because I think that he is scum.

[Lukewarm]

Baltar has made no real comments about starting to town read dwlee or about scum reading dunn harder, and the topic of conversation has largely been around the use of my vig shot.

yes, he did. 1940, 1956, 1969, 1976. i think his progression has been p clear actually, idk how you wouldn't have seen those if you were trying to sort him here

Dude, he openly said that the reason he did it was to stop me from pairing with Dunn

now that Luke is out with this nonsense and pairing with Dunn, I am perhaps more swayed to backing the Dunn lim today as a safety measure.

So, yes. I am reacting as if he is doing this to save Gorilla. Because that is what it looks like.

[Lukewarm]

@Marci, will you commit to planting your invictus on gorilla overnight if Dunn dies today?

Why marci here, Luke?

Because she previously offered to pair with me. So, was falling back to that when I felt like I needed a back up in case Dunn was the elim today

[Lukewarm]

I should emphasize: Luke's literal only concern right now is

being able to kill me

.

This person does not think that I have access to the scum night kill, but is calling me scum.

This person does not believe himself when he calls me scum.

[Lukewarm]

@Marci, will you commit to planting your invictus on gorilla overnight if Dunn dies today?

I think that Baltar's recent vote switch from dwlee to dunn is in hopes to keep me from being able to shoot there.

I should emphasize: Luke's literal only concern right now is being able to kill me. He is absolutely flailing scum. A town PR in this situation would be concerned with making their perspective clear and leaving legacy reads. He is not doing that. He is playing purely reactively. It is not town motivated whatsoever.

This feels like a perspective flip.

If gorilla thinks that I am scum, then gorilla should think that I can just use the regular night kill on him if Dunn goes over and I don't have a twin option on him.

But he knows that the only way that I can kill him is with my twinning ability, because he knows I am town.

-----

And yes, atm I am solely focused on being able to kill him, because I think that he is scum.

You don't want to use the regular nightkill on me because trading me 1 for 1 is a bad deal for scum. You have an extra kill and want to use it in addition to the factional kill. That's not at all hard to figure out.

You said "being able to kill me." If you think that I am scum, being able to kill you is never in question.

Also, are you now claiming that you don't think that my vig shot would give you invictus? Because that would also be 1 for 1. That didn't stop you from thinking that I want to use that on you. Why would it stop me from wanting to use the night kill on you?

And if you do think that they both would activate the invictus, then why would my only concern be on twinning with YOU. If I was scum, who I twinned on would not be all that important to me, so long as it wasn't on one of my hypothetical partners. Because I could night kill you, and twin on them.

Gorilla is just scum here. I will happily vote him out, if not someone better leave me with the ability to twin with them on him

[Lukewarm]

And if you do think that they both would activate the invictus, then why would my only concern be on twinning with YOU. If I was scum, who I twinned on would not be all that important to me, so long as it wasn't on one of my hypothetical partners. Because I could night kill you, and twin on them.

Like, why would I reach out to Marci and ask that she explicitly lands on you. You are correctly point to the fact that I am incredibly invested in my twin shot landing on you at this point. That is correct. But you are not genuinely thinking about whether it makes sense for scum or town Luke to care about that. Because you don't actually care about my alignment.

You have fairly obviously not cared about my alignment for some time now.

[Lukewarm]

I am down to 20 posts left, so I am gonna walk away or else I will be out very soon.

I don't want a dunn elimination unless someone else commits to planting their invictus on gorilla over night.

If someone does that, then I guess Dunn can go over instead of dwlee.

[Lukewarm]

Gogin back to Gamma's 1991. I kinda breezed past this earlier, because I have been so furiously typing responses to other things lol

@Lukewarm I made a gorilla towncase a couple days back to R&R - I don't need a full rebuttal or anything but what did you think of that at the time? And what do you think of me this game day?

I looked back at it just now, and my main reaction is :shrug:

Spoiler: Response to your actual points in the case

Not really sure what about the things that you called out would make him more likely to be town.

His response to Kovu's reads list seems pretty innocuous.

Not sure what distinction you are drawing between the way he voted Lava as town pushing vs scum pushing in the way that he did it.

And the last point was that he did not omgus Meuh, and instead completely dismissed her case as "bad and insubstantial." I don't know why you would expect that from town, but not scum. If anything, the way that he has comepletely dismissed points feels to me like a discreditting tactic then genuine engagement. That is a large part of what pushed me into being so sure he is scum. He felt more focused on discrediting me, then looking at what I was saying. So seeing him do the exact same thing to meuh, if anything, makes me more sure that he is scum

As for you, I am having a hard time recalling any real posts from you off the top of my head. That is likely in part because there are more people alive in this game then I can keep straight in my head (I totally forget Fey was even in this game until she checked back in at one point). As such, my read on you is nearly non-existent one way or the other.

I don't have time to dig through much of your iso atm, but your 1905 is a decent jumping off point for what I want to bug you about
My view of you+gorilla around then is that gorilla thinks your Dunn read is bad and mostly unjustified, and you're scumreading gorilla b/c you think that based on what he's saying about your opinion of Dunn, you think it'd make more sense from an outside perspective that Dunn would be white-knighting you or trying to pocket you, not that you two would be partners together. Is that close to correct for you?

This is part of it, but not exactly. It has felt like literally every point that I have made since revealing that I was a pr, he has not been looking at genuinely. Not looking at my points and reasons really. Instead, every thing I have said, from reasons I suspected him, to reasons I suspected Mala, to reasons I suspected Cakez, to reasons I got town pings from Dunn. Everything. He has been focused on responding in a way to dismiss.

It feels like he is more focused on discrediting everything that I have to say about the game, then to actually look at me and sort me. And I don't think that it is just because he is a tunneled townie, because he has been doing it since before he started positioning himself as "certain" that I am scum.

It is almost an opposite thought to what I had about Cakez. In that I simply did not believe Cakez's town read on me to be genuine. And now I don't believe Gorilla's scum read on me to be genuine. (and in contrast, i did feel like fire's suspicions on me were genuine and dunn's town read on me was genuine). Looking at how people approach forming reads on me is something that I focus on when developing reads.

The bits about calling me Dunn's partner, instead of me being pocketed or me white knighting dunn fed into those thoughts, and aligned with the idea that he is not genuinely looking at me, and is more focused on keeping me under suspicion and discrediting me.

I get your viewpoint there I think that from what you've said that you think that if Dunn is posting specifically towards you that you'd be town he's trying to convince instead of his scumpartner. But from gorilla's POV if it seems like you're letting Dunn off the hook easily for what gorilla sees as a bad reason to townread him, is it that outlandish for him to think you're potentially scum w/ Dunn because of it? Dunn directing his posts towards you in a way that feels like it's directed towards a potential town-you I feel like is a lot easier to see from your perspective than it is an outside one.

Also let me know if the wording of the above is confusing and I can try to rephrase it, but I think I got across at least the gist of what I mean.
Also also I think you've got like...maybe 15-30 posts left for today before you hit reserves? So if you want to wait until you're responding to something else and add that in that's fine too, I would very much prefer to not have a surprise literal last day before deadline replacement to deal with.

[Lukewarm]

@Luke - Again, you don't have to answer this right away b/c you're low on posts

but if Dunn flips scum, isn't that a pretty good reason to not vig/Invictus gorilla? Considering that he would be right about at least your reasons for finding Dunn-town being bad, if not (assuming you're town) your actual alignment? It feels like you're going all-in on gorilla scum even when a Dunn-scum flip objectively makes him much less likely to be scum.

this is actually a very good point and if luke is scum it may be TMIing dunn as town

gorilla paired with dunn makes not much sense, and luke says that he is willing to elim dunn as long as he still gets to shoot gorilla after??

the only way i can see that statement making any sense as town is if he is 100% deadset on gorilla scum and wants to shoot him out no matter what. but then why be okay with a dunn elim? in that world he should be fighting hard to lim someone else because he should think dunn is town. and if he thinks dunn could be scum, then why would he still want to 100% shoot gorilla? it sounds like he already knows what dunn will flip

I doubt that gorilla and dunn are partnered.

My number 1 goal in this moment is to kill gorilla, because I have become very convinced that gorilla is scum. All of my other scum reads are off the table for the day.

I don't really care who is today's elim, because I just want to kill gorilla over night. From the moment I voted Dwlee and asked for the day to end, I have largely stopped caring about who the elim is, because I have it in my power to just kill my scum read out right.

Maybe that is bad play. But, I don't get to day kill the people that I want. No one wants gorilla and no one will go for cakez. So, I am ready for us to go to the night phase, and then let the game go on tomorrow with or with out me, but with approximately 5 more flips then we have right now (elim, night kill, NK's invictus, my kill, and my kill's invictus).

Trying to sort through 17 people, but being told that I can't kill anyone I want to kill today has largely killed off my desire to optimize this day phase. And I am just more invested in the kill that i do have some say in . My vig kill over night.

You seem to be assuming that today's elim is the most important thing for me right now, but I am a PR drunk with power, focused more on utilizing that power the way I wish.

------

As such, I have not really been focused on toDay's elim in the last like 12 hours.

My preference was for dwlee to go, and for me to twin with Dunn. Based on my read of gorilla, I think dunn is probably town since not partnered.

But, if people are going to ignore me, and kill dunn anyways, then I want an alternative way to get to gorilla.

It might be prudent for me to have an option for a target, if dunn dies and flips scum. But that is not my preference, and was not the main thing I was thinking about.

How about Marci on gorilla, and Baltar on enchant.

And if dunn flips scum, baltar can have enchant then.

pedit: if you wanted to control the vig shot, you should have randed into the pr. Sorry.

but as it stands, I got it. My goal is not to avoid looking "pretty scummy" it is to shoot my scum read. What do I care how I look while doing it, since it appears he is committed to keeping his invictus on me, so we are both going down tonight

[Lukewarm]

Just as an aside, I have not been enjoying this game terribly much.

Obviously, I would prefer gorilla not have me as their Invictus, but if I die taking out a really strong scum read, that seems like a good enough way to walk out of this game.

If I am right, I am going out in a blaze of glory.

If I am wrong, I will save myself and the rest of the thread from dealing with me incorrectly tunneled on him for the rest of the game

[Lukewarm]

Luke, when you respond. I think you should just consider a different lim target. Gorilla seems fairly unpopular, and you look pretty scummy for the level of commitment you have there. Shooting dwlee or a more universal scum read is more protown.

ngl, my read on baltar has tanked pretty heavily since I outed I was planning to kill gorilla.

Like, look at this.

He is not calling gorilla town. He is not telling me why I am wrong.

He is telling me that killing gorilla would make me look scummy. Like, what???

This feels very much like trying to save a partner, while trying to appear just like The Voice of Reason, not someone who thinks that gorilla is town this game.

[Lukewarm]

If you want to shoot cakez, I would invictus with you there.

Kovu/fire should out whatever info they have on cakez before either of us consider this option.

But this is basically the only other person I would consider over gorilla atm

[Lukewarm]

Gonna start a post restriction count down on my posts, so I don't go over:

I have 14 posts left after this one.

…>.> I just don’t know how to say this after my last game with Luke but I really think this is their town game because they seem *this* close to having a meltdown and seem pretty mad overall. Whenever they get pushed this has been my experience with town Luke.

But I’ve never played with scum luke.

i don't think its exclusive to town luke

viewtopic.php?p=13383060#p13383060

This feels like you are trying to draw a parallel between this game and that one, but I don't see the similarity from the drivers seat.

I don't think that I have actually gotten upset this game at all. Just gotten really convinced of my gorilla scum read.

I think that my play wrt to my PR makes absolutely no sense as coming from scum. Like at all. And I feel like if anyone actually stops and looks at all of the stances I have taken between - first approaching Bell without outing, then outing, not accepting twinning with marci, suggesting kovu, not accepting Dunns proposal, then accepting dunns proposal, then focusing on getting a back up plan to kill gorilla - it literally doesn't make sense coming from a scum version of my role.

But, I also don't think that it really matters. And it can be a discussion if I some how am alive tomorrow.

--------

@Kovu and fire.

I think that it is time to say exactly what information that you have. I find it hard to just blindly accept that you have a clear, when even as you claimed you implied that there was an uncertain element

I mean, I have info that I'm

almost

certain clears cakez so yeah, he's not being limmed here

And I think that we need to look at it to decide if we are going to consider whether I am going to twin with Baltar on Cakez, or stick to my plan to twin with Dunn on Gorilla.

[Lukewarm]

I have 13 posts left after this one.

i thought it was relevant to what bell was talking about, at least. i don't think the situations are super similar though, it was more just an example of range

Ah

and i don't really think your play makes sense with your role as stated, either. i think that if you're scum you likely will still be alive tomorrow, and yes, it can be a discussion then. i don't really think you expect to die, because you have had a level of investment in convincing people that you're town post-claim that doesn't really seem like something you should care about if you are town with the role that you've stated

I have done nothing but try to get maximum use out of the role, so I don't know what part of what I have done has not made sense to you.

I am not sure what made you think that I am not expecting to die. Because that really does seem like the most likely scenario for the night from my pov. When I first full claimed that it would kill gorilla, I really expected that to lead to me dying. Either, from scum!gorilla's invictus or, if he was town, I would be night killed because I don't think that scum would want to let a claimed and proven vig stay in the game and in that scenario, would be a safe kill to make, like they would not fear my invictus. Because I am openly on gorilla with it AND killing him. So they don't risk any of them dying from their night kill's invictus. So, even before gorilla doubled down on planting his invictus on me, I expected to die regardless of gorilla's alignment.

From my pov, I have been primarily focused on pointing out why gorilla is scum here, not really trying to convince people I am town outside of the comment to gorilla to consider not having me as his invictus if he is town. Or I guess until that exact comment, but frankly it does feel baffling that you seem to think that I would have done much of what I have done as scum, and I have an insatiable need to clear up what feels like misunderstanding and misconceptions and to explain my thoughts (see everything in this post up to this point lol). Maybe that is what made you think I am invested in being town read any more. idk.

as for cakez, i don't see why thats a slot that needs to be sorted immediately. im deferring to kovu on this one and sticking with what i said earlier, that i don't want to elim him today

The reason that he became a slot that needed to be sorted immediately was because he was presented as an alternative option for me to kill over gorilla. But if you and kovu are both doubling down, I think that means I am back to just always killing gorilla. (hate to break this one to you Baltar)

-----

Gorilla mentioned that a I should be more interested in leaving behind my perspective. Which, I did want to touch back on. I think that my strongest reads are clear (gorilla, cakez, and mala) but I also don't think that my takes right now are ever going to be more useful to solving this game then the 5 potential flips between now and tomorrow.

-----

And in general, I'm pretty over today

[Lukewarm]

I have 12 posts after this one

I want to note that I think VP Baltar and Enchant have both towntold very heavily in response to the dram over the last few pages. Paranoid world says that Baltar could step in between what he sees as an inevitable tvt implosion as scum to farm credit but I think the concern and the way he's trying to convince luke to shoot in the POE is legitimate. Enchant posting the way he did just doesn't come from scum and I would very much oppose killing them at this point.

More willing to vote Dunn at this point given more confidence in my townreads and narrowing PoE.


Would also be entirely willing to flashwagon Fey if anyone had the desire for it. Think she fits the exact model of where I'd expect scum to be: bland, unmemorable, doing exactly enough to avoid suspicion and nothing more. Trying not to stand out, as it were.

To chime in. I don't think that scum!baltar does what he did trying to get me to not kill gorilla if gorilla is town. So, if gorilla flips town, town bin baltar. If gorilla flips scum, baltar should be looked at pretty hard tomorrow.

Scum me has fun and goes wild.

As it is I'm waiting 'till tomorrow to get into things, yes I have a reason, yes you can ask me about it tomorrow.

I saw this, and questioned if it was even true. But i have played with scum!ydra twice.

One game, she was the absolute highest post count player in the game. By far. And she was the single most town read player. I have on more then one occasion described it as the single best scum performance that I have encountered on site. (Not sure if it is still definitively number 1, but definitely in the running)
The other game, she openly claimed to be scum while going hard into a weird power play fantasy with unwnd that made me very uncomfortable.

I would not have described either of her scum games as "bland, unmemorable, doing exactly enough to avoid suspicion and nothing more. Trying not to stand out, as it were."

I don't know that she was having fun in that power play thing with unwnd, but these adjectives were not applicable to either of those games.

[Lukewarm]

I have 11 posts after this one.

I think that a scum team with enchant on it would be down for enchant to be viged. It gives him his invictus kill.

It is basically +1 scum directed kill compared to the current most likely way scum!enchant dies this game (death by invictus).

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That being said, I think that town!enchant would also be down to be vig'ed, because it would also give him his invictus kill, and I think that he would enjoy that (this is coming from some one who played a popcorn game with enchant. He really wanted that gun, and was really sad to be scum and unable to get it lol)

So, enchant being down for the vig shot, in this game with this invictus mechanic, feels very much like an Enchant stance to have, regardless of his alignment

[Lukewarm]

@marci, why did you choose to be on bell?

[Lukewarm]

My read on Marci is pretty hard to nail down. Like, I have gone back and forth a lot. So, I guess that she is not the worst elim for the day.

However, I think that basically everything that Kovu said about Marci that kicked off this most recent wagon is basically bullshit.

Marci, after being under heavy fire for a long time, and finally getting the heat off of her literally reaching the point of having zero people voting her and basically no one discussing her being the elim for the day, and her in that moment poking into the thread to mention a scum read one of the most reactionary OMGUSing players I have encountered on site is quite possibly the most town indicative thing that Marci has done in this game. Full stop. And Kovu called it was a scum claim lmao

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Like, lets look at what Marci said, and then what Kovu said. Because, Kovu's entire response was fairly unconnected from anything Marci even said. And I hated every word of Kovu's posts.

can i say something dumb

You may as well

i think kovu could be scum

i rest my case

Nah, kovu is town. This kind of ridiculousness is pretty town indicative, imo.

idk i remember when i was scum with andate in like holiday dance party she got townread for some shit similar to this

i dont see why what shes done is town indicative? like og i saw it but the more i look at it the more its similar vibes yknow?

Marci's main point is "I was scum with andante and she played like this" what? the lack of talking I'm doing? I literally have more posts than you. Similar vibes? the vibes are not similar at all. Holiday I was dead lost and didn't read any of the game. I even said that 50 million times in scum chat to yall. Here I'm actively around, sure this week got crazy, but I've still been here and responded to everyone saying Kovu. So what is this main argument you have for me being scum then? Cause I'm not seeing it.

It really feels like you're calling me scum for my "lack of spamming" here on day 2, but when I literally have more posts than you, 10 times more than mala, it's just like, what is the basis to your argument here for me being scum?

> I don't see what she's done that's town indicative
Ok um, didn't realize we were playing "Guilty until proven innocent" but, can you honestly give me towny points for everyone else here that you can't give for me?


So back to the main point, I truly believe this is a scumclaim from marci. she sees that I've been "lurking/coasting" and just goes "oh yeah, when I was scum with you you did that!!" like, why is that anyone's first thought, back to the 1 game you were my scum partner for a game in December... where I was home with family, and not thinking about literally any other game? I think the simple explanation is quite simply marci is just maf, and thinks this is a "good" argument to appear townier, but I quite simply don't buy it, and I don't believe there's good intentions behind it, pretty clearly looks like a scum claim to me.

Now marci, if you wanna back up this claim you're making with specific posts, I'd love to hear more, but if you thought I wasn't gonna stand up for myself, and that I'd be an easy push, you'd be mistaken.

Literally none of what kovu said that marci said, did marci actaully say.

Marci seemed to me to say:
-I think Kovu could be scum
-People seem to be town reading her for reasons that I don't know are town indicative for her
-There are similar vibes in this game to the one where I was scum partners.

Kovu then spirals out guessing all the ways that Marci might maybe think that the vibes were the same, and then saying that marci cannot possibly think those. The response is completely disconnected from anything that Marci actually said.

Marci is literally just looking for an easy push without actually pushing that hard

And frankly, this is not just disconnected from what Marci said. It is disconnected from reality. In what world, does Marci set out to find an easy push, and decide that Kovu is that person. When she could easily have joined in on anything that anyone else was saying about Dwlee, or Dunn, or Me, or Cakez, or call out a lurk slot.

Like Kovu is the exact opposite from an easy push to make in that moment.

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Like, we can flip Marci here. I don't actually have a strong enough read to try and stand in the way of it, and if Marci does flip scum obviously she is not partnered with Kovu.

But frankly I can totally see scum Kovu existing, just from the sheer amount of BS that she is spewing from the mere idea that someone could suspect her. My read on Kovu prior has gone back and forth as well. In particular because of her reaction to the suggestion that I might twin with her. But :shrug: there as well.


But frankly, if this is Kovu's town game, I am pretty disappointed. To the point that I kinda hope she is actually scum here, so she at least has a valid motivation to do the things that she is doing.

[Lukewarm]

fey, because earlier when i was looking at the votes on dwlees wagon her vote stuck out the most to me. it seemed pretty scummy and her other posts regarding dwlee do as well tbhs

cakez, 1) i dont fully believe all the "confirmed" ppl are telling the truth 2) i think alot of his content just mainly circles back to him susing a handful of people, i dont think hes trying to look at the full picture, theres alot of posts where hes just like "this is horrible/shitty/whatever he says" and i feel like thats just him trying to prevent progression of the game

gorilla, but only if luke is still so hell bent on them. i feel like we need to settle that feud between them or else luke will hella tunnel!! i also think it will help with sorting meuh because of their fight earlier this phase!!
i think alot of gorillas posts are just explainly explainly things, i think that would be pretty easy for scum to fake.

@marci, why did you choose to be on bell?

i thought maybe it would be better to incase bell was telling the truth
like, i feel like it couldve been likely for scum to want to try and kill him before he could actually clear himself, idk how dumb scumteam is but i remember a few games where me and meuh play where a shitton of clears happened and then the scumteam all got caught because they couldnt do shit about it. i thought maybe scumteam might try to prevent that sort of shit?

+

who else would i have targeted? i had no other options in mind LOL

I still hate what Kovu said.

But, just got to this post. And, it feels like town!Marci should have Kovu on this list. But doesn't. Which, kinda makes me worried that Marci is now playing to survive, and nudge kovu away from continuing to power tunnel her.

VOTE: Marci

I still stand by the fact that her calling kovu possibly scum is the absolute worst reason for anyone to think that she could be scum this game. But, I can see the world where marci is scum, and kovu is just incredibly frustrating.

And I am ready for the day to end.

[Lukewarm]

All private threads, including those for each player, should now be public. I also went back and added flavor to those last 3 flavorless VCs!

Congratulations as well to Lukewarm, the only winner of a long series of avatar bets I had going in the dead PT! With a guess of 110, he came within 2 pages of guessing the final length of Kovu and fireisredsir's personal PT, which was 112! (...Judged by 25 posts per page, ofc)

He will get to decide what avatar I use for 72 hours.

Wait, I won something!!

Gotta brainstorm ideas

[Lukewarm]

Fire, you were amazing this game!

You were one of my strongest town reads, even as you called me scummy repeatedly lol

[Lukewarm]

i was p sad that all the people i put work into getting them to townread me went and got shot by town... i wanted to endgame with datisi, vp, luke, etc

Were you purposefully talking more about meta, because I town read you for the amount of meta work you were doing in a prior game?

Or do you think you would play scum that way even if you were not specifically trying to pocket me?

[Lukewarm]

Also, as the winner of the "Guess the length of the Kovu/fireisredsir PT!" minigame, Lukewarm with the help of marcistar has given me a wonderful new icon for the next 72 hours.

For posterity:



Horrible. I love it!

He is wearing a sundress so you can join the Marci and Meuh Sundress club <3

[Lukewarm]

I don't yet have Hopes b/c I'm a broke ass bitch but I love FE3H, am very hype for when my quarter-collecting seeker yellowjackets bring back enough money for it

Hilda will be back after this 72 HOUR DISGRACE

Should have just won all of the bets tbh