Mafia Invictus Redux [Game Over]

[VP Baltar]

That much was obvious. Fully okay with sending you to graveyard over this.

we should force him to kill a town preferred target first, yeah?

[Prism]

Vote Count 2.5

FLAVOR

"Look, let's be candid. Tesla can't come here, they can't, you know it as well as I do. We're deadmeat if that goes through."

"It's not our fault, though. Can they really hold us accountable?"

"Can they hold us accountable? I got shaken down the other day and made very clear that I'm being held VERY accountable. We raise the fuck out of the property and sales taxes to scare them out of a deal. We lower them again when they leave."

"I told some of the surveyors and executives that visited we were planning on it. They were confused but it didn't really seem to make a difference. Apparently even our max is lower than most of the nation's, and one of the executives implied our successors would lower them even if we won't. We'll have to nip it in the bud early, just reject every building permit. They might still wait us out, but the Lamborghini Mafia surely can't blame us for that, right?"

"...Does anyone think this is really the right call? I'm scared, too, for me and my children...but the chance for my children, for all our children. Do we really have no spine? Are we really so firmly under their thumb?"

Player	Votes
Dwlee99 (7)	Fey (1569), VP Baltar (1571), Enchant (1587), fireisredsir (1590), Kovu (1641), Meuh (1727), Lukewarm (1914)
gorilla (2)	Dunnstral (1296), Rhyme and Reason (1301)
Dunnstral (2)	Gammagooey (1391), SirCakez (1600)
Gammagooey (1)	marcistar (1239)
Meuh (1)	Malakittens (1445)
SirCakez (1)	Bell (1906)
Lukewarm (1)	gorilla (1921)
VP Baltar (1)	Dwlee99 (1924)
Not Voting (1)	Val89 (1859)

With 17 players alive, it takes 9 votes to eliminate.

No elimination has been achieved. The Day 2 deadline is in (expired on 2022-06-12 15:30:00).

Spoiler: Postcount Tracker

Player	Daystart postcount	Reserves
Bell	115	10
Fey	38	10
fireisredsir	89	10
Malakittens	5	10
Lukewarm	119	10
Dunnstral	26	10
Rhyme and Reason	28	10
Meuh	80	10
Val89	28	10
marcistar	57	10
Dwlee99	21	10
Gammagooey	26	10
Kovu	98	10
VP Baltar	120	10
Enchant	27	10
SirCakez	64	10
gorilla	58	10

Posts are capped at 125 posts per slot per dayphase. Please see the Ruleset and FAQ for more information and tips on tracking your postcount.

[gorilla]

I think the role makes significantly more sense as a scum counterplay to town publicly coordinating invictus targets than as a vigilante. Of course, the notion that as mafia I would openly antagonize a role I had obviously deduced was killing power earlier in the day is absurd.

I also somewhat presume it doesn't actually work on partners or it'd be outright broken, but we'll see, I guess.

[VP Baltar]

I also somewhat presume it doesn't actually work on partners or it'd be outright broken, but we'll see, I guess.

failure to deliver on the town-selected target is a death sentence then. Will be glad to vote Luke out if he can't kill.

[Meuh]

Meuh, can you explain for me how you got from this:

You know that part of 1589 (point 4) you complained about being overexplained? That’s what it was explaining

[gorilla]

That much was obvious. Fully okay with sending you to graveyard over this.

we should force him to kill a town preferred target first, yeah?

I also somewhat presume it doesn't actually work on partners or it'd be outright broken, but we'll see, I guess.

failure to deliver on the town-selected target is a death sentence then. Will be glad to vote Luke out if he can't kill.

I think he's already made his move, not like you can threaten him to do otherwise. And presumably it'll trigger my invictus. Which I'm fine with. As I've said, it's not important to me to live to endgame.

[VP Baltar]

gorilla, did you make a Dunn case? I'm onto that phase, and if there is a succinct summation (or even just bullet points), I'd be much obliged.

pedit -- @ Meuh, I don't recall complaining about you overexplaining things. I will give this a read though.

pedit x2 - you think he sniped you? I mean, if so, that's a good reason to kill Luke. Luke, is that the case?

[gorilla]

gorilla, did you make a Dunn case? I'm onto that phase, and if there is a succinct summation (or even just bullet points), I'd be much obliged.

pedit -- @ Meuh, I don't recall complaining about you overexplaining things. I will give this a read though.

pedit x2 - you think he sniped you? I mean, if so, that's a good reason to kill Luke. Luke, is that the case?

I don't think I've ever made a formal case, no. I've made arguments but nothing that goes into fine detail. I'm not sure how much I want that flip at this point anymore anyway.

[gorilla]

For the record, if Luke legitimately believed I was scum and was going to vig me by twinning with Dunn, I don't think there's any chance in hell he'd actually announce it in-thread, because mafia have invictus too and doing so would invite a reprisal. More likely he's trying to justify a kill that would otherwise earn him the ire of the people townreading me. It's all very performative and telegraphed.

[VP Baltar]

Meuh, can you explain for me how you got from this:

You know that part of 1589 (point 4) you complained about being overexplained? That’s what it was explaining

The issue I have is that you don't say or express any of that stuff between your town read and your vote. Some of it comes AFTER your vote, such as your insinuation at the marci/gorilla partnership...but it's not the reason you changed your mind because you hadn't done any of that work.

So again, what in that 12 hour time span made you flip 180 on gorilla? Was it just that you were sheeping enchant?

[VP Baltar]

For the record, if Luke legitimately believed I was scum and was going to vig me by twinning with Dunn, I don't think there's any chance in hell he'd actually announce it in-thread, because mafia have invictus too and doing so would invite a reprisal. More likely he's trying to justify a kill that would otherwise earn him the ire of the people townreading me. It's all very performative and telegraphed.

Luke, I'd like your response to this because it is a legitimate point.

[fireisredsir]

when luke first partial claimed i thought it was def a vig that he was hinting at

but then as time went on i felt like the way that he played the day and played out the claim didn't really actually make sense for him to be a vigilante, bc it would be massively more beneficial for scum to not know what was coming, so i started to assume he was something else

and then he just claims vig anyway

so im kinda in agreement with gorilla there

[Meuh]

pedit -- @ Meuh, I don't recall complaining about you overexplaining things. I will give this a read though.

Oh huh maybe it wasn’t you
I know someone complained about it but it’s all blending in together

Pedit: On the spot, Enchant’s vote is what made me truly make that 180. I do think I should’ve expressed my uncertainty on him better instead of letting it boil at the back of my mind, but I can’t change that now. I’ve been particularly “act first, think later” this game and that’s likely not a good thing but meh

[Lukewarm]

I'm struggling to believe that gorilla looks at my play around marci all game, and is ever worried that I am actively trying to pocket her.

VOTE: gorilla


I think it more likely that it is scum not wanting me to write marci off as town and also not wanting me written off as town (added to meuhs point about his reaction to bell)

Not to beetle juice gorilla calling me and dunn parters or anything, but I actually think that I would prefer a Dunn elim to a dwlee elim.

Gorilla I did notice that you were pushing dunn. However, I am not convinced on either of your alignments enough to use that to clear either of you. Obviously, if either of you do flip scum then I will re-evaluate the other, but definitely not taking either of you off for the other one.

Also, you are not my biggest scum read rn. Cakez is. You were just simultaneously on the bottom half of my reads and an existing wagon that could reasonably go through with out me needing to commit major energy into making it happen. At a time where I actively didn't want a Meuh elim, and she was the other leading wagon

Gorilla, cakez is actually, in this moment, scaring me about the dunn elim then you ever would have :/

Laying in bed thinking about this game, and I've convinced myself of a gorilla town read

The more I think about these posts, the more I hate them.

They seems to be approaching the topic as "come up with something that scum could never post, or having thoughts that someone could be town is scummy and fake" -- when that is literally never how this game or reads work.

Scum can post literally anything. This is a game more about looking at a post, and asking whether is seems more likely something comes from town or scum, and imo, those reasons seemed more likely to come from town. Based on the difference in how scum or town approach building town reads.

But because there is a possibility that scum could make them (and I agree that that is a possibility) Gorilla is completely dismissing it, and not actually engaging in whether that logic would be more likely to come from town or scum.

VOTE: dwlee

I am ready to end the day and twin with Dunn.

I think tomorrow will be very enlightening

luke, can you talk about your progression on gorilla? you voted them, but unless ive missed something, most of your responses and posts about them seem to be about yourself and defensive, not really saying a whole lot about why gorilla is scum. the main reason i see is that you don't believe their claim that you're pocketing marci is believable

you then are somewhat reconciliatory towards gorilla, saying you would prefer a dunn lim to a dwlee lim (right after voting dwlee, and then immediately after that, going extremely hard on cakez for voting dunn)

then you said you got to a townread on gorilla without reasoning

and then now, gorilla is criticizing your townread on dunn, and you push back hard again, with language that makes it sound like you're scumreading gorilla

and then you vote dwlee and say you want to end the day

why did you townread them? why did you say to them that you would prefer a dunn elim to a dwlee elim, while voting dwlee and attacking cakez? what is your read on them now?

Gorilla was vaguely bottom half of my reads, but not a strong read by any means. Null:scum at worst walking into this day phase. Largely for not having a lasting impression on me Day 1, which I do find more often then not scum land themselves into that grey area of my reads. But, not a lot of thoughts going on there.

My read on them dipped a bit based on the comments he made about me and Marci, because that post catching his eye made more sense to me if he was scum then if he was town. Partly because he read so much into it. I said I was dropping my reaction test on her. He read that I was calling her town. And he apparently did not like that. Both the misread of the situation, and not liking a possible miselim slipping away made more sense as coming from scum then from town.

He was still not my strongest scum read, but no one wanted to kill my strongest two scum reads, he was now a scum lean, and he had a wagon on him. Hence the vote.

The reversal to town reading him was me thinking about the way that he caught that dunn made my to kill list in 1541, and then followed up again in 1552. Because that seemed like the kind of thing that you would catch if you were really reading along to my posts trying to sort me. Also seemed like an odd thing to fixate on as scum, given I was never being voted out today given my claim so he, as scum, would not really be incintivized to look for a reason to push me out today.

But, now I am struggling to see how any of his more recent arguments are being made in good faith and I want him dead.

[gorilla]

Kovu, Bell, Gammagooey, fireisredsir
{Rhyme and Reason, Malakittens}
Dwlee99
VP Baltar, marcistar, Enchant, Val89, SirCakez,
Fey, Dunnstral
Lukewarm, Meuh


I think if I'm right on luke-scum it clears marci and enchant (and mala, natch). I wouldn't necessarily clear Cakez off of his push there but Cakez on an individual level has felt slightly better as the day has gone on. Val is someone I admittedly have barely been paying attention to lately. Dunn I would avoid pulling the trigger on before seeing what Luke's role card says.

I wouldn't really support a wagon on someone other than Meuh or Fey at this point (I don't think Luke is a realistic possibility, my vote there is symbolic). Haven't been satisfied with the way most of the wagons have been going.

[Gammagooey]

@VPB - I mentioned a few points on Dunn-scum in my reads-list and included two posts of gorilla's I agreed with in reference here: 1714

REALLY dislike that Luke's claimed power is a vig and that they want to kill gorilla with it of all people instead of like Enchant particularly and the way he went from *don't know if Dunn is town for that flurry of posts but maybe* to *sure I'll shoot who Dunn wants* with i actually being a vig. Part of that is probably that a lot of my scum reads are basically polar opposites from his but I'll reread later tonight and see if my hate for it still feels justified in hindsight

@Meuh that was me saying your big explanation post felt overexplainy at points, not VPB

p-edit: I have been ninja'd by like 7 posts

[VP Baltar]

Dunn, what do you think of this turn of events from Luke?

General question, if Luke does vig gorilla, then gorilla gets to use his invictus, correct? As I'm thinking about it, it's slightly confusing to say Luke's kill is an auto-trigger invictus when the first kill part is essential to what an invictus is. What Luke is describing is more like a gained vig shot.

[VP Baltar]

Dunn, what do you think of this turn of events from Luke?

General question, if Luke does vig gorilla, then gorilla gets to use his invictus, correct? As I'm thinking about it, it's slightly confusing to say Luke's kill is an auto-trigger invictus when the first kill part is essential to what an invictus is. What Luke is describing is more like a gained vig shot.

[gorilla]

In the event you are successfully killed by any means other than the standard day elimination, another Invictus shot, or by a modkill, you will automatically attempt to kill your target.

From the sample role PM. I assume whatever his power role usage is does not count as an invictus shot, which means it would trigger the invictus of the person it killed.

[VP Baltar]

@VPB - I mentioned a few points on Dunn-scum in my reads-list and included two posts of gorilla's I agreed with in reference here: 1714

REALLY dislike that Luke's claimed power is a vig and that they want to kill gorilla with it of all people instead of like Enchant particularly and the way he went from *don't know if Dunn is town for that flurry of posts but maybe* to *sure I'll shoot who Dunn wants* with i actually being a vig. Part of that is probably that a lot of my scum reads are basically polar opposites from his but I'll reread later tonight and see if my hate for it still feels justified in hindsight

thank you, checking out your dunn case.


I don't think your disagreement with Luke is about scum reads being opposite. The most obvious protown play of a vig is to shoot a black hole player like Enchant or maybe even Fey. I'm very perplexed at why Luke would want to kill gorilla of all people as a priority. It doesn't make a lot of sense.

[Gammagooey]

to *sure I'll shoot who Dunn wants* with

it

actually being a vig

missed a letter in there

[Lukewarm]

For the record, if Luke legitimately believed I was scum and was going to vig me by twinning with Dunn, I don't think there's any chance in hell he'd actually announce it in-thread, because mafia have invictus too and doing so would invite a reprisal. More likely he's trying to justify a kill that would otherwise earn him the ire of the people townreading me. It's all very performative and telegraphed.

Luke, I'd like your response to this because it is a legitimate point.

My thoughts were that if gorilla is scum, his invictus will be on me either way, so it literally didn't matter.

But, on the chance that I was wrong, him knowing that I was a vig that the scum team would have to kill would lead to him moving it.

Basically, saw a potential benefit if I was wrong, and no down side to outing.

If he is scum, and I don't out, I die to his invictus.
If he is scum, and I do out, I die to his invictus.

If he is town, and I don't out. I die to his invictus
If he is town, and I do out, there was a chance that I don't die to his invictus

[marcistar]

Also to be honest, I just realized that marci is a survivor playing survivor in a mafia game and we should probably just kill that even though from a meta perspective I shouldn’t.

wtf does this mean

[gorilla]

For the record, if Luke legitimately believed I was scum and was going to vig me by twinning with Dunn, I don't think there's any chance in hell he'd actually announce it in-thread, because mafia have invictus too and doing so would invite a reprisal. More likely he's trying to justify a kill that would otherwise earn him the ire of the people townreading me. It's all very performative and telegraphed.

Luke, I'd like your response to this because it is a legitimate point.

My thoughts were that if gorilla is scum, his invictus will be on me either way, so it literally didn't matter.

But, on the chance that I was wrong, him knowing that I was a vig that the scum team would have to kill would lead to him moving it.

Basically, saw a potential benefit if I was wrong, and no down side to outing.

If he is scum, and I don't out, I die to his invictus.
If he is scum, and I do out, I die to his invictus.

If he is town, and I don't out. I die to his invictus
If he is town, and I do out, there was a chance that I don't die to his invictus

Lol, hell no I'm killing you every time you cheeky scumbag

[Lukewarm]

I was asked why I outed, and I answered.

If you're taking me down with you, i'll make that trade.