LOST (Game Over)

[Rad]

Oh BB, I've explained many times why I believe Malcolm's scum. Lots of people here also lean scum on him. The reason I'm getting flipped here is a combo of Luke's misread on me (or your lie if you're not actually talking to Luke) and the fact that I don't play it very safe as town. So I make enemies and piss people off being open about my thoughts. I got a crazy imagination and some heafty paranoia and don't keep it to myself cause what's the fun in that?

It's ok though. Tomorrow can be Malcolm.

[Rad]

Sure sure but you are objectively scummy with what has been put forward here.

Yeah but scummy doesn't mean I'm scum. Like, that's the easiest way for scum to pick off town, by pointing out scummy stuff town does. My town game is obvtown compared to my scum game, especially in a game this big where I've been talking my ass off for a month and keep putting myself into the spotlight to be limmed. I just pick fights when I should lay back and not do that. No one likes being called scum and I openly present wacky theories about people being scum cause I want to discuss them. I know I'm to blame here but I also find it more enjoyable as town to just openly discuss stuff than to keep my cards close.

I get that I need to be resolved. I've realized that ever since Bell died and it just got worse when Luke died. It'd be cool if town was able to hero read me here but I also worry that I become a liability later, so probably best to just flip me here. Kinda sucks cause I've commited a lot of time and energy to this game but also kinda cool because it occupies a huge amount of space in my brain and it'll be nice to move on.

[Rad]

Remind me again why Taly is town?

I think this is a question for me?

Like honestly, I don't have a strong personal read on Taly's slot one way or the other (like I do with, say, BBT and CSF here). I've mentioned it before but for most of Day 1, Taly would post and I would read it and all the content would just vanish from my memory. I started taking that as a sign that Taly might be scum, and so I put Taly as scummiest on my list for Ceph. Then the gladiate played out and I just got a town read on Taly somehow. I pay attention closely to how emotions are being presented and that's often where I get my reads from. Something about the gladiate experience pushed me towards likely town read on Taly.

Further, Nancy has hard town locked and hard defended Taly since Day 1. I see that as 2 potentials. Maybe scum!Nancy is white-knighting Taly. Or maybe town!Nancy has such a good read on Taly that she's willing to burn everything down to protect the slot. Either way, I feel like that's a good reason to read the Taly slot as town and so I've just placed Taly as likely town for most of the game.

[Rad]

Sure sure but you are objectively scummy with what has been put forward here.

Yeah but scummy doesn't mean I'm scum. Like, that's the easiest way for scum to pick off town, by pointing out scummy stuff town does. My town game is obvtown compared to my scum game, especially in a game this big where I've been talking my ass off for a month and keep putting myself into the spotlight to be limmed. I just pick fights when I should lay back and not do that. No one likes being called scum and I openly present wacky theories about people being scum cause I want to discuss them. I know I'm to blame here but I also find it more enjoyable as town to just openly discuss stuff than to keep my cards close.

I get that I need to be resolved. I've realized that ever since Bell died and it just got worse when Luke died. It'd be cool if town was able to hero read me here but I also worry that I become a liability later, so probably best to just flip me here. Kinda sucks cause I've commited a lot of time and energy to this game but also kinda cool because it occupies a huge amount of space in my brain and it'll be nice to move on.

Color me confused because how else is town supposed to find scum but for scummy behavior? You’ve been resigned to your flip quite a bit but continue to action opposite of your words. That’s also scummy.

I think HEM suggested in a different game that you gotta look at actions from both town and scum angles and figure out which makes more sense. Or maybe it was Bell or Ceph lol. So I try to follow that advice when I can, whoever gave it. Everyone's doing scummy shit in every game. I bet the more skilled scum are probably less scummy than town in most games, yeah? So finding people being scummy probably isn't the best approach here, but I'm a newbie so I might be completely wrong.

As for me trying to preserve myself here, consider it an addiction to this game specifically due to how much effort I've put in

[Rad]

Town game:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=89529

Scum game (replaced in after day 1):

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=89584

My only completed games since 2014. Older games are off site.

If you wanna read them, you should notice how in my town game I waste my town points for random bs ideas and in my scum game I pocket furtive and dare not pressure him <3

[Rad]

On a brief skim, the basic difference that I could seei is that you expressed a lot of passion for your trs in your towngame, something completely absent from your scumgame. I don’t really think I’ve seen you do that here. You also seem to use more emojis like as scum, like you were networking or trying to ingratiate yourself with others. I almost sometimes get the impression that you try to use your exceedingly abundant charm to get people to tr you, where as you don’t really seem to care about that as much as town.

If I've lost some passion, that's probably me being jaded from being pocketed by BBT and defending him all game in my first newbie lol.

I think I've been super open about my reads in this game though? Recently I've pushed BBT and CSF as strong town reads based on their interactions with my wagon in previous day. I'm not going to jump on a bomb for them like you have done for your strong town reads but that's because I lack confidence in my reads. I've also pushed a strong town read on RCE due to him being incredibly more solvey in this game than my scum game with him where he just lurked and jumped out here and there when needed.

I've had you Nancy at the top of my list most of the game. Glance though my thoughts on my newbie town game about Whiskey. He was my highest town read in that game (so high I openly sheeped him letting him decide who to target) and I spell out how I would have turned on him if he wasn't the NK. I had the same type of paranoia about you this game where I'm worried I'm totally misreading as hard town.

[Rad]

The smiley point is an interesting catch but NAI I came into the first game not really knowing how much I should use the smileys here. is just what I tended to use a shitton back in the day on my old site. It's my favorite and I will use it all the time now <3 Also I loved BB's use of early game lol. I don't think my use of smileys is a scum/town tell at all lol but it's a neat catch

[Rad]

So that’s a problem then, how am I supposed to differentiate between town!paranoia and and noncommittal scum?

How are you supposed to be able to tell the difference? I tend to tr players with conviction moreso in their trs because townblocking is much easier than scumhunting. I know that there are detractors who will argue the converse that scum can easily make trs except they usually don’t do that too much unless they’re literally the kind of scum that will bus their entire team.

Scum always wants to be able to pivot on trs and often have some type of loophole to make a change in reads easier. It’s extremely difficult for scum to fake that kind of passion and conviction.

So to me, an excessive amount of especially back and forth paranoia on too many people - right or wrong - reads scummy to me. \_0_/

It's an interesting point for sure. On one hand as scum you want to leave your options open to be able to shift wagons easily, yeah? On the other hand, town reads are just easier to explain as scum. So if you lock into your town reads too hard then shifting when you need is problematic.

Which approach is more ideal probably shifts as skill increases, I'd imagine.

This is a game with a ton of people and the paranoia is just kinda overwhelming for me here. People I'm paranoid about:

You (Nancy)
Pooky
Drap
BB
Luke (rip, sorry luke, resolved now of course)
Masons
BBT (left over paranoia from both my newbie game and a separate game I read of his where I had him as my top town)
Ceph (early game when he was giving advice, again that's now resolved)

People I think I have solid actual reads on:

CSF
RCE (now Furtive)
BBT (still paranoid though)

Everyone else is just a normal read with no significant paranoia.

[Rad]

To clarify something, CSF / RCE / BBT are my strong town reads with actual substance backing them. Like I noticed specific things that made a ton of sense to put them into the town category, rather than just reading their tone or gut reads or emotion reads which are probably less significant in terms of actually figuring out town from scum, but that I rely on for reading in general.

[Rad]

The smiley point is an interesting catch but NAI I came into the first game not really knowing how much I should use the smileys here. is just what I tended to use a shitton back in the day on my old site. It's my favorite and I will use it all the time now <3 Also I loved BB's use of early game lol. I don't think my use of smileys is a scum/town tell at all lol but it's a neat catch

Well, I can only go by the two games you linked and you used those emojis a lot more in the scumgame.

Yeah yeah don't get me wrong, I think that's an interesting catch from you. And it's probably accurate. But I think it's NAI because in my first game (town) I wasn't super comfortable with how I wanted to post here so I likely avoided using smileys too much until I felt more comfortable. It's a personal self-conscious sort of thing rather than an alignment thing.

[Rad]

Nothing wrong with that sweet Malcolm wagon that has 2 town on it right now

Meh.
I’m personally not sure about CSF.

CSF's interaction with my wagon yesterday has me convinced. But even if you read me town, it was probably one of those "had to be there" timing sort of things. Like not everyone who jumps off my wagon or defends me is town but the timing was pretty damn convincing for me.

[Rad]

Further, CSF's continuing to push a Malcolm wagon over me. So like... why does scum!CSF do that when town!Rad's so easy and justifiable here?

[Rad]

I honestly don’t see how anyone reading my posts during the gladiate can possibly be paranoid on me. I had a near fucking meltdown over a possible Taly gladiate. There’s just no way in hell, I could ever fake that as scum. And when Titus told me that she’d rather vote out a tr than no lim, I told her that I didn’t think I could play anymore if she voted Taly over my extremely strenuous objections.

This game isn't within my scum range either. I know that, and you know you're playing outside your scum range. Seems natural to distrust each other in a game of deception?

I'll take your word if you take mine.

[Rad]

Further, paranoia isn't logic based. Like I can't step outside during a heavy story with lightning. I just won't do it unless I absolutely have to. Am I going to get murdered by lightning? Highly unlikely. I understand that. Does that make me less paranoid that I'm going to? Nope. Fuck storms.

[Rad]

I honestly don’t see how anyone reading my posts during the gladiate can possibly be paranoid on me. I had a near fucking meltdown over a possible Taly gladiate. There’s just no way in hell, I could ever fake that as scum. And when Titus told me that she’d rather vote out a tr than no lim, I told her that I didn’t think I could play anymore if she voted Taly over my extremely strenuous objections.

This game isn't within my scum range either. I know that, and you know you're playing outside your scum range. Seems natural to distrust each other in a game of deception?

I'll take your word if you take mine.

It doesn’t work like that, you can’t bargain out trs. And it isn’t my word, it’s all right there in those posts to anyone bothering to reread them.

I don’t know if you are or aren’t. You showed me two games and those games didn’t do anything to change ly mind. If they’re not a good representation, than link some others?

I don't have any other completed games aside from off-site games from 2014.

It's ok. I get that I'm not in the position of power here. Just thought we could reach an understanding but it's all good and I don't blame you.

If I get hammered over night please wait to close the day until I can comment! Going to try to get some sleep now.

[Rad]

Further, paranoia isn't logic based. Like I can't step outside during a heavy story with lightning. I just won't do it unless I absolutely have to. Am I going to get murdered by lightning? Highly unlikely. I understand that. Does that make me less paranoid that I'm going to? Nope. Fuck storms.

Well despite me being extremely emotional, I am actually both a logic and gut-based player when it comes to reads. I also rely a fair bit on meta, which is something that I obviously don’t have with you but imo, BBT’s doc claim explained away a lot of the reasons I had previously been sr him for because it made sense because of the claim.

I use both my intuition and logic to make reads but I’m pretty bad at explaining exactly how I do it.

I hear you. I have a hard time explaining how I get my reads too. I did a lot of cases in my newbie town game because that's how we used to play the game. Cases cases cases. Back in the day it was very aggressive and very case heavy. I did a case here for scum corwin but haven't really bothered since. It's tiring as fuck and I just don't enjoy it anymore. Also the isos are just unreadable for most players at this stage. I read your entire iso when it was at something like 460 posts plus parts of 3 other games and my eyes and brain were dead after.

[Rad]

People I have meta dived for this game (off the top of my head):

Nancy - 3 games
Luke - 1 game
BBT - 2 games
Roden - 1 or 2 games I think
Mala - 2 games I think
Drap - 1 game

I think that's it unless I'm misremembering. Zzz sleep damnit

[Rad]

@Johnny when exactly did tbone inform you of his role in your hood?

[Rad]

2)Pretty sure T-Bone claimed Doctor to him like a previous night but it was Luke who died over him.

Yeah this is the direction I was going with my question to Johnny. If scum!Johnny knew about tbone before the Luke nk why does Luke die there first?

I might as well lay it out though. Drap calling Johnny a doctor makes me think he has too much info because I have a protective role and claimed to have one to Johnny early. I said I protected Drap after the Bella flip. There's a paranoid part of me that Johnny and Drap have been discussing these things in a Mafia PT, leading to Drap calling Johnny a doctor in this thread.

I don't think tbone telling Johnny about his role after the Luke nk counts as "early". Guessing he probably told him sometime soon after the Bella flip? So if scum is going to kill Luke and tbone due to cop checks, why not kill tbone first if they know he's protective? Or maybe the cop checks don't even matter and tbone only dies when he did due to outting his role publicly, which we know happened way after whenever he supposedly told Johnny about it.

[Rad]

Also I guess we can pinpoint it even more and say he told him sometime before drap started calling Johnny doctor which I believe was way before Luke nk yeah?

[Rad]

This town confs Johnny for me I think. Johnny counter wagoners should get on Malcolm imo.

[Rad]

maybe johnny is scum but

I'm not voting out of malcolm or rad

today
it was supposed to be between those two yesterday until mala wagon suddenly happened.
theres still 3 wolves left and these guys SRed each other since early on
if masons tracker and cop are all town then theres a huge chance 1 of these guys are scum based on associations

VOTE: Malcolm

Do you proof read when you post?

He means that's his voting pool, I think. I thought it was weird too until I reread it a few times.

[Rad]

Hey Yeet welcome back. It was probably my summary. We've got 2 legit wagons today - me and Malcolm. However you want to approach that's your call.

[Rad]

Unofficial count:

Rad

- Best Bird, PookyTheMagicalBear, butterflies, Cytosine and Guanine, OTH, Malcolm (6)

Malcolm

- CSF, Rad, Drap, Mislim, Furtive, Butterchurn (6)

We're even! Let's go, vote people!

[Rad]

Bb still hard pushing town wagons. Same old same old.

[Rad]

Lol. Hey bb ask Luke if he thinks you're scum and then tell us his answer.

[Rad]

Alright. Where do you stand on Malcolm bb?

[Rad]

@OTH - TBone told Johnny he was protective before the Luke NK. Why does scum not kill TBone before Luke if scum!Johnny knows?

[Rad]

probly because they dont want luke to lim you

No, Luke's NK puts me significantly in the crosshairs next to Bell's NK. Why would scum team kill Luke if they want to protect scum!Rad? Rad's the prime target with a Luke NK. Luke being alive gives me a chance to win back his town read. It's actually a terrible strategy to protect scum!Rad IMO.

What's another reason to kill Luke before TBone if scum!Johnny?

[Rad]

What does that have to do with the price of tea in china BB?

I've won his favor back before. Why wouldn't scum!Rad think he could do it again?

[Rad]

What does living Luke have to do with the chance of survivability of scum!Rad? People in this game aren't stupid. scum!Rad doesn't just kill Luke and everyone's like ooooh nooooo Luke's dead what do we dooooo. Even if Luke tunnels me, who cares? People have minds of their own. It's FAR worse for scum!Rad to constantly off people who scum read him than it is to keep them in the game. I was a main wagon yesterday and you weren't talking to Luke then.

[Rad]

Also this idea that all of scum's motivations surround Rad is absolutely absurd. I'm a fucking newbie, why wouldn't scum team let me die?

Save Rad!!! Oh god Bell reads Rad scum KILL HIM! Oh god Luke reads Rad scum KILL HIM!

It's absolutely ridiculous.

[Rad]

yea im sure scum never kill people who suspect them and have been pushing them in order to shut them up

thats never happened before ever

you have convinced me rad

I'm not saying scum wouldn't kill someone who suspected them. I'm saying that killing people who hard read scum!Rad as scum doesn't make sense here. It puts scum!Rad in a worse position. So it makes no sense why Bell and Luke would be the targets to specifically save scum!Rad when it hurts scum!Rad more than it helps.

[Rad]

Yo pooky are you capable of speaking about this shit without the heavy layer of sarcasm? Cause it's really fucking frustrating. If we're both town, you're just being a jackass.

[Rad]

Also I get you're convinced I'm scum but that doesn't mean you gotta be a jackass in every fucking response.

[Rad]

Like if I'm scum here, I'm just playing the game we all supposedly enjoy and trying to survive.

If I'm town, I'm speaking from the heart and this shit is just annoying as fuck.

Please counter my ideas with some respect. Thanks.

Pedit

Alright, apologies if I'm being a dick too. Can we both stop this then?

[Rad]

What does living Luke have to do with the chance of survivability of scum!Rad? People in this game aren't stupid. scum!Rad doesn't just kill Luke and everyone's like ooooh nooooo Luke's dead what do we dooooo. Even if Luke tunnels me, who cares? People have minds of their own. It's FAR worse for scum!Rad to constantly off people who scum read him than it is to keep them in the game. I was a main wagon yesterday and you weren't talking to Luke then.

Sure. But the scum team isn’t just Rad. Almost as if there are outside factors to consider. Almost.

Yeah but your stance here is that Luke's dead due to protecting scum!Rad. It doesn't make sense. Yeah Luke should have died for sure, but if you're going to point it to me as the reason, that reason doesn't check out because scum!Rad is safer without that pressure.

[Rad]

I find your argument for clearing yourself based on your primary pusher being nightkilled to be absurd.

I'm not trying to clear myself based on that. You guys are trying to push me as the reason and I'm saying the reason does not make sense.

[Rad]

What does living Luke have to do with the chance of survivability of scum!Rad? People in this game aren't stupid. scum!Rad doesn't just kill Luke and everyone's like ooooh nooooo Luke's dead what do we dooooo. Even if Luke tunnels me, who cares? People have minds of their own. It's FAR worse for scum!Rad to constantly off people who scum read him than it is to keep them in the game. I was a main wagon yesterday and you weren't talking to Luke then.

Sure. But the scum team isn’t just Rad. Almost as if there are outside factors to consider. Almost.

Yeah but your stance here is that Luke's dead due to protecting scum!Rad. It doesn't make sense. Yeah Luke should have died for sure, but if you're going to point it to me as the reason, that reason doesn't check out because scum!Rad is safer without that pressure.

What? That’s not my stance at all.

What does that have to do with the price of tea in china BB?

I've won his favor back before. Why wouldn't scum!Rad think he could do it again?

because he's been pretty tunneled on you? bad risk for scum!Rad

[Rad]

What? Oh I see how you misread that.

"Yeah but your stance here is that Luke's dead due to protecting scum!Rad"

I'm saying that your stance is that Luke's dead because scum killed him to protect scum!Rad. Not that Luke died protecting Rad lol

[Rad]

Yeah Luke's dead for being good in general and being likely cop confirmed.

The push that Luke's dead to protect scum!Rad is ridiculous though. It puts me in the spotlight. If I'm scum!Rad, scum team kills Luke knowing that this is the risk, not because it somehow saves scum!Rad.

Once you see I flip green, Luke also died cause it frames Rad even more, which was probably not a driving factor (I mean, I suck, who cares about killing me) but is icing on the cake for sure.

[Rad]

I think wagon dynamics today strongly suggest one of Malcolm or Mala is scum.
~Cytosine

What changed from this?

This please @Cytosine.

[Rad]

oshit I wasn't expecting that lol

[Rad]

Sorry if I negatively affected the game for you pooky. I had absolutely no expectation that you would jump wagons. I was just busy defending myself against shit I know isn't true but maybe I get too into it. If you're town I hope you can get back into the game. I mean you've been wrong about me but I don't want you jumping over to malcolm just because I'm annoying you. I'm not totally sure about malcolm as it is so I'd rather we had people who were also reading him scum to join the wagon or to hold off if it doesn't make sense. We got ~9 days still... If this is a TvT I'm banking on people smarter than me to stop it.

[Rad]

i literally do not care i stopped caring about the game on day 1

I thought you did awesome day 1. The spreadsheet was fucking sick. What's put you off?

[Rad]

Rad continually tries to convince Pooky they're being unreasonable for a solid read, Pooky then suddenly changes their vote and Rad gets all nice and apologetic suddenly. Obvious scum, eliminate this slot.

Lol this ignores any and all emotion that went into that exchange before the vote shift as well as the emotion behind the vote shift and instead just paints me to be some scum who feels bad for pushing poor town!pooky too far. Malcolm consistently for the past month has been incapable of interpreting anything I do as anything but scum motivated with a scum agenda.

[Rad]

Also re last turn - I feel like Rad's positioning on Mala looks a lot worse in retrospect. I was still a viable elimination for much of the turn but Rad moved away from me and onto Mala, and then was pretty comfortable there. This is despite Rad's constant scumread on me and the fact that I was still actually a viable elimination for most of the last turn. What's Rad motivation to move off me here if they're town? It makes much more sense from the POV of scum who was simply looking for the easiest and quickest town elimination.

My motivation was getting a flip on 1 of the 2 slots I scum read and moving the game forward. I had also considered, again, that you and me could be conf biased TvT but saw absolutely no reason to believe mala was town.

[Rad]

How about this Malcolm.

Just about everything I do, the large majority, most of what I do, Malcolm interprets as scum motivated with a scum agenda.

[Rad]

Well we can hang out together on the malcolm wagon and mala can check his dead red corpse tonight to tell us what he was

Math's interactions with/about Mala:

2313 - Math just points out corwin's push on frog and asks if it was ever explained
2459 - responds to some joke mala said
2468 - Mala with some NAI claim that math could be scum cause he was scum a couple times before in a replace and Math responding seriously to it
2480 - More nonsense argument about something that's NAI
2570 - friendly banter
3516 - Mala calling BBT a baddie and Math pretending to be angered by it
3540 - Math urges Mala to make a case on Taly instead of Mala just talking about maybe voting Taly (which is actually townie of Math so he should say this regardless of mala's alignment to look townie)
3684 - If Mala flips red, this is Math pushing distance between Corwin and Mala claiming Corwin is attacking both Frog and Mala.
5359 - Calls Mala probably town
5363 - Wants people to vote one of Mala, Frog, Taly, Dunn. He pushes this for a while.

So my takeaway:

- Mostly just NAI banter and soft interactions
- No hard pushing on or supporting of Mala. The push on 4 people later includes Mala because Mala's a top wagon.
- Nothing that jumps out as clearing Mala, and nothing jumps out as damning Mala either

yeah fuck it. Month long meta switch or just scum?

VOTE: Mala

Yeah you're blatantly lying again here to save your skin. The first two posts here are clearly positioned from a POV where Mala was potential town even if you were uncertain. Then when you decide Mala is the best elimination your vote suddenly goes there. You weren't scumhunting - you were just positioning yourself for the easiest vote.

11956 is the main reason I pushed the mala wagin

[Rad]

How about this Malcolm.

Just about everything I do, the large majority, most of what I do, Malcolm interprets as scum motivated with a scum agenda.

Again you do this thing constantly where you shade other players for scumreading you when they make fair points to make them look inherently unreasonable, tunnelled or biased instead of actually engaging with the point they're making, because when your play is assessed it's likely that you are scum.

The goal of mafia is to find scum. Part of that involves looking at players and uncovering reasons as to why they could potentially come back as scum. When you suspect a player as scum it's therefore natural you're going to find the motivations behind their play as scummy. This exact argument could apply to your read of me, no? Unless your read on me isn't actually that concrete because you fundamentally know I'm town.

Malcolm, consider I'm town rad here a moment and I'll speak to you like you're town Malcolm, k? Everything you're saying about me is wrong. Nothing I'm doing is scum motivated. And most of your reads on me focus on me being scum with scum motivation. That's not town rad shading you, that's town rad pointing out that you're wrong because you are. You take just about every action and apply the scum angle to it. It's so consistent that it's maddening. Again you're either conf biased town here or scum, there's no other option from my perspective.

[Rad]

Well we can hang out together on the malcolm wagon and mala can check his dead red corpse tonight to tell us what he was

Math's interactions with/about Mala:

2313 - Math just points out corwin's push on frog and asks if it was ever explained
2459 - responds to some joke mala said
2468 - Mala with some NAI claim that math could be scum cause he was scum a couple times before in a replace and Math responding seriously to it
2480 - More nonsense argument about something that's NAI
2570 - friendly banter
3516 - Mala calling BBT a baddie and Math pretending to be angered by it
3540 - Math urges Mala to make a case on Taly instead of Mala just talking about maybe voting Taly (which is actually townie of Math so he should say this regardless of mala's alignment to look townie)
3684 - If Mala flips red, this is Math pushing distance between Corwin and Mala claiming Corwin is attacking both Frog and Mala.
5359 - Calls Mala probably town
5363 - Wants people to vote one of Mala, Frog, Taly, Dunn. He pushes this for a while.

So my takeaway:

- Mostly just NAI banter and soft interactions
- No hard pushing on or supporting of Mala. The push on 4 people later includes Mala because Mala's a top wagon.
- Nothing that jumps out as clearing Mala, and nothing jumps out as damning Mala either

yeah fuck it. Month long meta switch or just scum?

VOTE: Mala

Yeah you're blatantly lying again here to save your skin. The first two posts here are clearly positioned from a POV where Mala was potential town even if you were uncertain. Then when you decide Mala is the best elimination your vote suddenly goes there. You weren't scumhunting - you were just positioning yourself for the easiest vote.

11956 is the main reason I pushed the mala wagin

It's a clever post and works well as a potential case for Mala - only we know Mala was not scum, so in retrospect why should I not believe this was constructed by scum to find a reason to vote out Mala? Scum who felt Mala was a good elimination would want to find a reason to justify why they have gone onto a wagon that was going to end up being town. The goal of scum is to convince town they are townie and a well thought-out case that ends up being wrong is something that can come from a scum MO.

I dunno, maybe you could attempt to apply a town angle on something I've done instead of just assume it's scum motivated?

Can you fathom this post and thought process coming from town!Rad?

[Rad]

How about this Malcolm.

Just about everything I do, the large majority, most of what I do, Malcolm interprets as scum motivated with a scum agenda.

Again you do this thing constantly where you shade other players for scumreading you when they make fair points to make them look inherently unreasonable, tunnelled or biased instead of actually engaging with the point they're making, because when your play is assessed it's likely that you are scum.

The goal of mafia is to find scum. Part of that involves looking at players and uncovering reasons as to why they could potentially come back as scum. When you suspect a player as scum it's therefore natural you're going to find the motivations behind their play as scummy. This exact argument could apply to your read of me, no? Unless your read on me isn't actually that concrete because you fundamentally know I'm town.

Malcolm, consider I'm town rad here a moment and I'll speak to you like you're town Malcolm, k?

Everything you're saying about me is wrong. Nothing I'm doing is scum motivated. And most of your reads on me focus on me being scum with scum motivation.

That's not town rad shading you, that's town rad pointing out that you're wrong because you are. You take just about every action and apply the scum angle to it. It's so consistent that it's maddening. Again you're either conf biased town here or scum, there's no other option from my perspective.

Again though this could apply to literally any player in the game. Scum lie, that is literally the point.

From my POV as a townie my town neighbour who strongly TR'd me has died and the main counter to my wagon (being town) is someone I have suspected for most of the game and who had the perfect motive to eliminate Luke.

Your argument here that we could still both be town looks like a hint towards a compromise elimination, but there are a couple of problems with that solution:

1. It's literally what we did last turn and we were wrong.
2. You are aggressively pushing for my elimination anyway.

Why am I expected to be reasonable and townread you simply on your word when you consistently push for me to be eliminated from the game?

Consider you're willing to compromise on someone else here - where do you plan to vote? And if you're still willing to consider me as biased town, why aren't you pushing anywhere else? To me the answer is quite simple - you're scum and I'm the most viable elimination so you're going for me.

Nono, I don't mean "let's just TR each other from now on", I meant for the sake of understanding why I might be coming across as shading you left and right, consider everything that's gone on as from town!Rad's perspective. Everything you've said about me and my actions, consider why town!Rad might have issue with that.

[Rad]

I think it’s obvious Malcom flips wolf and I think it’s Obvious Rad is never with them.

I dunno.

I don't think I could pull off either side of this recent back and forth as scum.

I don't think Malcolm necessarily flips scum here.

UNVOTE:

The reason I keep going back to Malcolm is because I have absolutely no idea of who else could be scum beyond some wifom based bs ideas. scum!Malcolm makes sense to me specifically because he's so fucking relentless and constantly wrong about my actions, but maybe that makes him town.

Is there anyone else on the Malcolm wagon that truly believes Malcolm's scum besides Drap? Or are most of you on there because you're just choosing Rad over Malcolm?

[Rad]

w/ regards to Malcolm wagon:

CSF - has case
butterchurn - like's csf's case
Mislim - wants day to end and doesn't care which of us it is
furtive - i dunno?
pooky - is annoyed at Rad
drap - believes malcolm's scum for whatever reason

This doesn't feel great to me

[Rad]

w/ regards to Rad wagon:

BB - has Luke's case and thinks Rad's super scummy
butterflies - let's be honest, I pissed Nancy off, no clue what Flea thinks
C&G - Both C and G separately suggested they want a Malcolm wagon if Mala flipped town so I dunno, they're just suddenly considering me more likely scum than Malcolm?
Pooky (before jump) - thinks Rad's a scummy liar

*shrug*

[Rad]

Drap can you give some general thoughts on why you're sure Malcolm is scum? Or point to a post where you spell them out? I can't remember if you've posted one like that.

[Rad]

I hear ya Nancy. I don't mean to suggest you're only voting me cause I pissed you off, I was being brief with the description. I will say that if I was scum I would never make the mistake of pissing you off more than once though <3

[Rad]

rad suddenly unvoting after I switched over is just more evidence that rad/malcolm r scum together

people need to vote one of the two so we can move the game along alrdy

Malcolm rad scum team with sickest bus strats confirmed

[Rad]

I hear ya Nancy. I don't mean to suggest you're only voting me cause I pissed you off, I was being brief with the description. I will say that if I was scum I would never make the mistake of pissing you off more than once though <3

And how am I supposed to know that? Pooky insisted to me on d1 that scum never push me and Ceph was town wrongly sr me, which turned out to be true but on d2, Math tried very hard to get me miselimed according to DNA, so it’s obviously not true that scum never tries to shitpush me.

Cause my scum game relies on not pissing off the loudest player lol. It's how I got through my scum game with town!furtive when I noticed him absolutely tunnel town!HEM. I don't have that filter as town but it's super easy as scum.

So that first time would have been a mistake but any time after that just wouldn't have happened.

[Rad]

Sorry BB, I dunno who to vote anymore fail rad

[Rad]

VOTE: Rad

for BB, and let's be honest, I probably need to be sorted here for town's sake cause boy would I suck ass at end game here

[Rad]

I can only think of wifom based scum reads at this point so I'm basically worthless here

[Rad]

Let's do this pooky!

[Rad]

Here, lemme stir this shit up so people will vote me. I'm town but also harmful to town this game if I continue surviving. You guys should sort me now.

I think the

masons

are probably lying. Roden's hasn't played his strong town game at all here and Butterchurn's already set me up to be mislimmed at end game with 13570 where the masons will likely still be alive. Both are low effort low quantity posters and so was dwlee. We have no way of confirming the masons at this stage so you have to either flip one to find out or let 2 players who are hardly playing live until the end of the game. Flip Roden cause if they're town then Butter's at least putting in effort. Or if you somehow have a strong town read on them, great, they can chill in the shadows for the rest of the game occasionally giving their opinions.

I think it's game integrity breaking if

c&g

broke the rule and didn't face the consequence. This is unfair if true for both c&g, whatever their alignment, and the rest of the game. So I still lean towards it just being false and that they never had this limitation to begin with.

Seems like plenty are doubting the

RCE/Furtive

slot. I have him as hard town because he played this completely different than my scum game with him. I felt he was really solvey and stepped out of the shadows way more than in our game. Others are doubting him so that's making me question things. Furtive's entry here feels really weird but I don't have a strong meta read on him, just the 1 game I was in when he was town and I was scum. I also started out the game with reading this slot as my first scum read (The Toad). So yeah, maybe I'm just wrong on this slot!

Pooky

's probably town.

butterflies

's probably town.

Fucking

Malcolm

's probably town.

BBT

and

CSF

gain hard town reads from me due to their interaction with my wagon, but that shit could be wrong. More likely wrong on BBT than CSF though IMO.

Johnny

's town guys come on... why does Luke die first if scum already knows TBone is protective... town!Johnny is also fairly useless here so, if you must =/

OTH

I have no fucking idea.

Mislim Bait

, yeah I can see him being scum but I don't have any particular strong opinions on the slot one way or the other.

Drap

's my paranoid scum read along with the masons. But that's probably bullshit paranoia and he's probably just town tracker who's not all that invested in the game.

Yeet

's whatever, just go with Nancy's hard town Taly read I guess.

BB

's ehhhhh, maybe scum yeah. I think he can probably talk to Ceph and Luke here and he's probably also scum.

Let's not forget Mala's POE here, cause Mala's a good player who tanked the game on purpose.

{OTH, BB, mislim bait, rce, JF, CSF, MT}

I think we can remove

JF

ok?

{OTH, BB, mislim bait, rce, CSF, MT}

I think

CSF

should be removed when you see I flip green, but you guys can decide. Specifically look at how CSF defended me, when she defended me, and if her defense makes sense.

{OTH, BB, mislim bait, rce, MT}

I think

Malcolm

could still be scum but if he is, he did some arguing with me that I wouldn't be able to do as scum. Also I'm reading some emotion in his posts that I wasn't hearing before, making him sound less robotic and more pissed off, and I read that townie. If you guys wanna flip him after me, I think it's reasonable still and we both deserve it if he's town.

{OTH, BB, mislim bait, rce, MT}

This is probably a really strong POE that people should take seriously. Nice Mala!

[Rad]

If you wanna ask me questions here, feel free.

If you wanna argue points, fuck off and vote me <3

I'll be up for another hour or so. After that I'm sleeping. I got 1 more post to post when I'm flipped so please wait to end day for me <3

[Rad]

Sorry Nancy you're going to have to figure this shit out cause I no longer have any confidence I can. Keep your vote on me and get me tf out of here cause I'm how town dies at end game.

I would suggest that you ignore your read on Dwlee and consider Roden and Butterchurn separately. Dwlee was so inconsequential here and could have just made the right move, even if accidental, and it fooled you, and now you have a perma town read on 2 slots for it.

[Rad]

Ah and for BBT, yeah, I read him town. If you read him town too then great. I read him town specifically for wagon timing on me though.

[Rad]

In fact you could *almost*/*probably*/*maybe* clear people on my wagon IF MALCOLM IS TOWN:

{Best Bird, butterflies, Cytosine and Guanine, MalcolmTucker, PookyTheMagicalBear}

Because I'm probably so fucking off here that scum would want to keep me around to end game.

[Rad]

Please ISO Butterchurn again Nancy.

He's got 60 posts in 30 days lol

Not all of them are good content. Double check that and come to a conclusion.

[Rad]

In fact you could *almost*/*probably*/*maybe* clear people on my wagon IF MALCOLM IS TOWN:

{Best Bird, butterflies, Cytosine and Guanine, MalcolmTucker, PookyTheMagicalBear}

Because I'm probably so fucking off here that scum would want to keep me around to end game.

So where do you think the scum are voting or not voting?

Well Malcolm's the better player. That's just fact yeah? He's much more experienced than me from my understanding. I'm newbie and any scum can tell. Doesn't mean I'm stupid as a person, I don't think I am, but I don't have any level of higher understanding of this game and scum can probably tell.

If Malcolm's town, you kill him here, because I'm either a solid follow up tomorrow, or I will be at some point.

I think one of the things that means is that Rad doesn't get killed today.

If Malcolm is scum here, maybe I obvtowned too hard and like... 1 scum is on him right now. I dunno though. That's kinda too advanced for me to figure out.

[Rad]

In fact you could *almost*/*probably*/*maybe* clear people on my wagon IF MALCOLM IS TOWN:

{Best Bird, butterflies, Cytosine and Guanine, MalcolmTucker, PookyTheMagicalBear}

Because I'm probably so fucking off here that scum would want to keep me around to end game.

So where do you think the scum are voting or not voting?

Well Malcolm's the better player. That's just fact yeah? He's much more experienced than me from my understanding. I'm newbie and any scum can tell. Doesn't mean I'm stupid as a person, I don't think I am, but I don't have any level of higher understanding of this game and scum can probably tell.

If Malcolm's town, you kill him here, because I'm either a solid follow up tomorrow, or I will be at some point.

I think one of the things that means is that Rad doesn't get killed today.

If Malcolm is scum here, maybe I obvtowned too hard and like... 1 scum is on him right now. I dunno though. That's kinda too advanced for me to figure out.

Further. Roden's on Johnny lol. Wtf? And Butterchurn's on Malcolm. A johnny vote here is nearly useless and a Malcolm vote, if Malcolm flips town, follows my reasoning why you'd flip malcolm before me.

[Rad]

Please ISO Butterchurn again Nancy.

He's got 60 posts in 30 days lol

Not all of them are good content. Double check that and come to a conclusion.

Fuck it if I'm still alive tomorrow, I will also ISO Butterchurn and come to a conclusion. 60 posts is nothing to ISO and think about. But I'm not doing it tonight.

[Rad]

Please ISO Butterchurn again Nancy.

He's got 60 posts in 30 days lol

Not all of them are good content. Double check that and come to a conclusion.

Fuck it if I'm still alive tomorrow, I will also ISO Butterchurn and come to a conclusion. 60 posts is nothing to ISO and think about. But I'm not doing it tonight.

by tomorrow i mean when I wake up

[Rad]

Anyone with any other questions? I go to sleep soon. I should be hammered by the morning or sometime in the next 24 hours at least. Do not keep me around town, it's dangerous. Just vote for me and please when you do, give a reason <3 If the reason is because I requested, that's what it is. You could expand on it as well! I think it's reasonable for anyone who votes me here to give a solid reason up front so town can look at it after I flip green.

[Rad]

Further, hey, if you 100% read me as town here and refuse to vote me, I think that's an ok stance to take too. Make it known openly. You should be claiming I am a hard town read for you here and you refuse to think otherwise. That way at end game when you decide to flip on me you're caught red handed. I think Rad!Town 100% advocates should have a strong voice here too.

[Rad]

So plan:

1. If you're unsure of town!Rad or sure of scum!Rad, vote me and give reason. If you're already voting me, explain reason.
2. If you're sure of town!Rad, declare it.

#1 should win here and town will have a list of reasons to analyze when I flip green.

Please, people already on my wagon also follow this pattern.

I don't think it's necessarily scummy to be unsure of town!Rad here so just give your reasons and be done with it. There's no reason for me to continue past this point, and it's dangerous to town for me to do so, so just be open about this. I guarantee this is worst case scenario for scum to have to deal with.

[Rad]

Ah one more thing. I'm Libby the Vanilla Townie! That's it. So boring. No reason to hide it anymore since I'm openly pushing my own lim. No one has to worry about me being a super cool PR here. I'm a boring fucking VT. Give your reasons for voting me or get fucked when I flip green. Do not coroner target me. I'm boring ass Libby the VT.

[Rad]

I think I'm literally the last person to declare their flavor/role??

One thing that was weird to me here is that no one has pushed for my flavor/role during any of the wagons. I dunno what that means but it sure feels strange. Maybe I just didn't get close enough to flip to push for it? But if there are scum on my wagons, they know it was never close enough.

[Rad]

I don't wanna shut down rad's attempt on mech solving for the 2nd time now but who actually read 12058 and thought that yeah this is a good idea.

to sum that post up we're basically misliming a town(town!rad world)
wasting 2 coroner shots, bb's shot and tracker's shot all just to prove that mala is telling the truth about being a coroner which is nai.

It does a bit more than just catch Mala...

Drap confirms BB can target dead
Mala and OTH are pitted against each other's reads
BB talks to me to find out my role which could out Mala if Mala just isn't coroner at all
If scum cares about the plan, they should kill town!BB, and BB isn't being heavily town read this game so that's a wasted NK for them

Is it foolproof? Nope.

It's mechanically interesting though and accomplishes some things if everything goes to plan. Town can decide it's a bad idea though, that's fine. Also I think the plan is just dead now if OTH can't target during the day cause the result would come back before the plan could even take place.

-drap confirming that bb can target the dead doesn't mean anything just confirming their role.
-like you said bb could be scum
-mala could still be scum claiming their real role
-or mala could be town and everything is just wasted

we do all this or we could just let drap track someone and maybe they'll track another nk.

I don't wanna shut down rad's attempt on mech solving for the 2nd time now but who actually read 12058 and thought that yeah this is a good idea.

to sum that post up we're basically misliming a town(town!rad world)
wasting 2 coroner shots, bb's shot and tracker's shot all just to prove that mala is telling the truth about being a coroner which is nai.

Well most of it went over my head but what I did get out of it is that RAD’s probably town, so that much was super helpful.

I would agree with you if the plan was good but rad made this whole mech solve centered around them flipping town which looks kind of lamist
I'm having 2nd thoughts whether they really think that misliming themselves here as town!rad is beneficial for town. There's like little chance here that mala is lying about their role.

I centered it around myself because my role is completely unknown to anyone and I think mala's probably just lying here about coroner. We could target Luke but he's probably just neighbor. Also I'm probably a liability later in the game due to Bella/Bell/Luke. If Malcolm flips green I'm even moreso.

the timing of that post was also bad
both mala/malcolm were the top wagons when they said that
and they both scumread them
so why would they suggest a town!rad mislim?

Rad sounds fine up until 12058
and any mala/malcolm scum flip would also spew rad town
If it wasn't for these I would probably go there today

Just throwing out possibilities for advancing in a reasonable way. I'm all for a Malcolm or mala wagon but I get why some people might be hesitant on either of those because I'm pushing both. I realized there could be a way to get some real info while resolving my liability so I ran with it. As per usual my more open thoughts get both hard town and hard scum read

Sure sure but you are objectively scummy with what has been put forward here.

Yeah but scummy doesn't mean I'm scum. Like, that's the easiest way for scum to pick off town, by pointing out scummy stuff town does. My town game is obvtown compared to my scum game, especially in a game this big where I've been talking my ass off for a month and keep putting myself into the spotlight to be limmed. I just pick fights when I should lay back and not do that. No one likes being called scum and I openly present wacky theories about people being scum cause I want to discuss them. I know I'm to blame here but I also find it more enjoyable as town to just openly discuss stuff than to keep my cards close.

I get that I need to be resolved. I've realized that ever since Bell died and it just got worse when Luke died. It'd be cool if town was able to hero read me here but I also worry that I become a liability later, so probably best to just flip me here. Kinda sucks cause I've commited a lot of time and energy to this game but also kinda cool because it occupies a huge amount of space in my brain and it'll be nice to move on.

These are times I mentioned the word Liability with regards to my own play. Consider them. If you're convinced I'm town, declare it, and if you're not, vote me with reason.

I should be sorted here as maybe scum, or I should be declared as town.

[Rad]

YES I think scum could declare me town.

YES I think town could declare me scum.

Let's see some reasons before I flip. Sort me everyone.

[Rad]

If you've already sorted me via a past post(s), just quote it and vote again.

[Rad]

I'm trying to solve 2 things that are within my abilities here.
1. People who are not sure about town rad. That's ok and is reasonable but I want to see some reasons before I flip.
2. People who are absolutely convinced of town rad and are willing to go to endgame with that read, explain yourself.

I fully expect#1 to win here but I want to see reasons. I expect some town here and some scum. If you naked vote me fuck you get flipped next. We got time, show everyone why I'm scum.

[Rad]

I'm trying to solve 2 things that are within my abilities here.
1. People who are not sure about town rad. That's ok and is reasonable but I want to see some reasons before I flip.
2. People who are absolutely convinced of town rad and are willing to go to endgame with that read, explain yourself.

I fully expect#1 to win here but I want to see reasons. I expect some town here and some scum. If you naked vote me fuck you get flipped next. We got time, show everyone why I'm scum.

Cytosine said that he thought that you were flailing under pressure.
I feel like some of your posts do give a similar impression to me though more so now then when he had said that.
I kind of feel like that self-vote was out of pressure but I can't tell if you're Town who has lost faith or scum who knows that he's been caught.
-Guanine

Couple things.

Why am I scum if I'm flailing under pressure?

What pressure did I have at 4 votes vs Malcolm's 6 (would be 7 if I stayed on it) that caused me to self vote?

[Rad]

Who's Ben

[Rad]

Wat

[Rad]

Spoiler flea, I'm town. You should keep your vote on me cause I should be flipped today but during your catch up, you should just consider me town and try to figure out who the scum are in my interactions, if there are any interacting with me.

[Rad]

I don't hate pooky's cop checks but I think one of them should have been a mason to confirm 2 slots with 1 shot

[Rad]

I don't dislike the logic behind checking Luke and tbone. I don't know what's absolutely ideal for a cop check from a mechanics pov but I don't think it's scummy to be worried that Luke's playing a great scum game there.

[Rad]

I guess that's a fair point and makes a Luke check there quite a bit premature since he should be taken out early if town.

[Rad]

Ah one more thing. I'm Libby the Vanilla Townie! That's it. So boring. No reason to hide it anymore since I'm openly pushing my own lim. No one has to worry about me being a super cool PR here. I'm a boring fucking VT. Give your reasons for voting me or get fucked when I flip green. Do not coroner target me. I'm boring ass Libby the VT.

Ok, Ben.

Who's Ben

mmmhmmm

Wat

@BB are you saying RAD is lying about his flavour?

~Nancyfly

Wouldn’t be surprised. There’s like a 0% chance that Ben is not in this game, and most likely would be scum.

Oh I thought you were implying I was some alt account of a guy you know named Ben lol.

Has this Ben idea driven any of Luke's scum theory on me? Sorry to say, I'm not Ben.

[Rad]

There's like 0 chance of pooky wagon going anywhere.

You don't want to lose town!Pooky here anyway. You want to lose town!rad cause that will improve town's chance of winning. Only 2 people have openly claimed they will read me town at endgame. I'm the endgame mislim waiting to happen.

I will escape this island before you pooky. You must stay and suffer.

[Rad]

Malcolm, consider me town for a moment. Is there a better endgame mislim in this game than town!rad?

[Rad]

Listen to Malcolm, I'm scum and everyone needs to vote me out immediately

[Rad]

Ty bbt. I think my other town read csf should do the same.

[Rad]

Malcolm if you got fight in you then keep it up. I do not. I'm spending all my time defending myself and most of my ideas here are silly wifom bs that people scum read me for. Bell scum read me, Luke scum read me, if you're town and we flip you I'm even more a liability and I bet I wouldn't even die tomorrow if you flip town today. I'll die at endgame with town. This isn't even me complaining here, this is me recognizing the correct move for town.

[Rad]

Even if everyone in the game locktowned me here, I'm still picking the wrong person to flip at endgame. This game has been super fun but this is where my slot has to leave.

[Rad]

in fact as a token of good faith i will self-vote right now just for you buddy

VOTE: Pooky

pls don't

just vote rad

I agree, but to clarify BB, am I scum or am I town here?

[Rad]

Unofficial Rad Wagon (other wagons don't matter)

5 Rad (BB, butterflies, C&G, Malcolm, BBT)

So we got 2 townies here (butterflies, BBT), one probably townie (Malcolm) and 2 maybe scums (BB, C&G)

Let's go everyone. There's no reason not to vote me here.

Pooky's a bad wagon and he must stay here and suffer.

I don't understand the Johnny wagon but you guys can flip him tomorrow or something if you insist.

Malcolm and Johnny can be the 2 dueling wagons tomorrow or something.

Today is Rad.

Please vote me.

[Rad]

I can answer for you here Nancy - The C&G + Math flavor does fit with the post restriction. That was discussed earlier.

[Rad]

I'll see if I can find it.

[Rad]

Here's Luke talking about the flavor:

My opinion on the Hydra posting restriction, is that if it is real he is likely in a neighborhood with Sun.

That would give the slot an outlet to talk as much as they waty, and a way to keep communicating after they have run out of words (Jin getting Sun to "translate" for him). We also know that there is at least 2 claimed neighborhoods at this point. Could be with Toog, or could be a 3rd hood.

That being said, I don't really have strong feelings about whether the PR restriction being town or scum indicative. I feel like, if it is real, STD had the idea as a way to represent Jin's flavor of struggling to communicate early on in the show before he learned english, and it likely would have been an idea before he randed the flavor alignments.

Ahh nice Enchant post I noticed when doing this:

Yep.

Restriction is real. It doesh't change anything alignmentwise.

Btw i am in good mood somehow, so i answer one question directed to me. Probably.

[Rad]

I think the alignment is just random. Maybe the restriction is just real here and game integrity was broken and no one cares about that but me. C&G either went scum effort mode to spell out fake corwin convos or they're just town cause there's no reason for corwin/math+c&g to have convos in the pt if both are scum.

[Rad]

1 thing that did bother me about c&g corwin summary was when they explained how they got the town read on him, it was really early when corwin offered to communicate their ideas to the thread. Like that's absolutely something I would have no problem suggesting if I was scum corwin there but that gave c&g a town read on him? Ridiculous.

[Rad]

As for early town read, I can't speak for Guanine, but for me personally, it mostly comes down to post 3. Being willing to help us so early without really having any knowledge of our alignment is a massive leap of faith, and while it's not impossible, I don't think it's the leap of faith scum would make

Here is what I'm referring to.

Couple things about this strike me as odd.

It's super easy to do and probably a scum tell if he doesn't do it.

It's not at all a "leap of faith" because corwin's scum, so he doesn't need to have faith that c&g is town, he knows their alignment. Describing it as a leap of faith that scum wouldn't make doesn't make any sense to me.

[Rad]

Scum Johnny doesn't make sense with the tbone Luke kill order, but ok if you guys won't kill me I'll just kill people I think are probably town

VOTE: Johnny

[Rad]

Push harder bb, I can't even get the rad wagon to happen but I'll happily hammer myself if you can pull it off.

[Rad]

I agree, but to clarify BB, am I scum or am I town here?

I feel like I have been very clear on my stance here...not sure the point of this question.

Well when I flip green and people are looking at my wagon, they'll know your stance on me being scum didn't change throughout all my recent content. I dunno how scum is likely to react to my content here lately but it's probably very confusing on which approach to take here. Maybe scum just don't dare touch my wagon at this point, or if they're already in the wagon maybe they gotta double down . If you think I'm trying to worm my way out of flipping me today you're not paying attention at all.

[Rad]

Drap just vote me and afk a couple days. Johnny wagon is silly but Rad wagon has to go through today.

[Rad]

then i'm going to tell them to reread the game thinking I'm town

Referring to my comment to Flea, yeah? Well imagine I'm town here, I truly believe I need to be flipped today, and flea's here catching up from 600 posts ago making arguments for scum!Rad from before I decided to just end it all. I kinda want flea to spend time catching up with a town!Rad lens. Wouldn't you?

[Rad]

You could catch another scum tonight drap. You should probably die the following night anyway. If you're at end game with me and you're town, I'm probably going to vote you cause you shouldn't be there. So there's no end game scenario where you and me win this for town. If I show up at end game with someone like BB or Malcolm and they're town, we lose. It's just too easy for scum to mix me in with whoever they choose to win the game. I'm a hard wagon today because scum don't want me gone yet.

[Rad]

Push harder bb, I can't even get the rad wagon to happen but I'll happily hammer myself if you can pull it off.

Because there's still a bit of time till the turn is gone and naturally the town is unlikely to eliminate someone right away. If you're scum then your gambit has potentially worked here by making people less likely to vote for you. Certainly it was the main driver of my doubt yesterday.

Nobody wants this day to go for its full length. It's anti-town to push for that, tbh. Townies are going to continue to get more and more frustrated and apathetic the more we spin wheels here and delay.

[Rad]

You could catch another scum tonight drap. You should probably die the following night anyway. If you're at end game with me and you're town, I'm probably going to vote you cause you shouldn't be there. So there's no end game scenario where you and me win this for town. If I show up at end game with someone like BB or Malcolm and they're town, we lose. It's just too easy for scum to mix me in with whoever they choose to win the game.

I'm a hard wagon today because scum don't want me gone yet.

Who do you specifically think doesn't want you gone and why do you think they want to keep you in the game? In this scenario it'd suggest all the counterwagons to you are town, no? Otherwise scum would surely prefer to see you eliminated, even if they're careful about how they go about it.

I dunno. It's hard for me to work out who's what here cause I've never been in this scenario before.

[Rad]

You could catch another scum tonight drap. You should probably die the following night anyway. If you're at end game with me and you're town, I'm probably going to vote you cause you shouldn't be there. So there's no end game scenario where you and me win this for town. If I show up at end game with someone like BB or Malcolm and they're town, we lose. It's just too easy for scum to mix me in with whoever they choose to win the game. I'm a hard wagon today because scum don't want me gone yet.

Who is the scum who don’t want you gone and why?

You could catch another scum tonight drap. You should probably die the following night anyway. If you're at end game with me and you're town, I'm probably going to vote you cause you shouldn't be there. So there's no end game scenario where you and me win this for town. If I show up at end game with someone like BB or Malcolm and they're town, we lose. It's just too easy for scum to mix me in with whoever they choose to win the game.

I'm a hard wagon today because scum don't want me gone yet.

Who do you specifically think doesn't want you gone and why do you think they want to keep you in the game? In this scenario it'd suggest all the counterwagons to you are town, no? Otherwise scum would surely prefer to see you eliminated, even if they're careful about how they go about it.

I dunno. It's hard for me to work out who's what here cause I've never been in this scenario before.

You and Malcolm mind-melding here

[Rad]

Though I've explained the "why" - because I'm a huge liability at end game. The "who" I have no clue.

Also I could be wrong and I'm not being flipped easily for some other reason.

[Rad]

Fwiw I think Rad (if town) and I are basically Elo poison if we make it that far.

If I had my way today I'd prolly vote out CSF or C&G. I'm willing to compromise on basically any non-confirmed slot.

Ahh elo poison's a good term for it. Absolutely what I'm saying here.

[Rad]

You could catch another scum tonight drap. You should probably die the following night anyway. If you're at end game with me and you're town, I'm probably going to vote you cause you shouldn't be there. So there's no end game scenario where you and me win this for town. If I show up at end game with someone like BB or Malcolm and they're town, we lose. It's just too easy for scum to mix me in with whoever they choose to win the game. I'm a hard wagon today because scum don't want me gone yet.

Who is the scum who don’t want you gone and why?

You could catch another scum tonight drap. You should probably die the following night anyway. If you're at end game with me and you're town, I'm probably going to vote you cause you shouldn't be there. So there's no end game scenario where you and me win this for town. If I show up at end game with someone like BB or Malcolm and they're town, we lose. It's just too easy for scum to mix me in with whoever they choose to win the game.

I'm a hard wagon today because scum don't want me gone yet.

Who do you specifically think doesn't want you gone and why do you think they want to keep you in the game? In this scenario it'd suggest all the counterwagons to you are town, no? Otherwise scum would surely prefer to see you eliminated, even if they're careful about how they go about it.

I dunno. It's hard for me to work out who's what here cause I've never been in this scenario before.

You and Malcolm mind-melding here

Well, it’s a pretty logical question. If you’re town, why wouldn’t scum want you gone? I really don’t understand that at all?

I've explained it enough and I think it's an easy concept. I don't think scum just cares about killing any town any day. Some are better to keep around until later. Even if I was a good normal ML yesterday and today, I think I'm even better now for late game.

[Rad]

No one's going to give a more comprehensive case on a wagon today than what BB/Luke's presenting here, and that will follow me into end game if I continue to survive.

VOTE: Rad

[Rad]

People could push a Malcolm wagon or C&G wagon or CSF wagon here and maybe get one through, but tomorrow is still Rad vs that case and none of those people flipping red clears me of it.

[Rad]

The BBT thing was me misremembering stuff and talking about it openly without re-checking things first. It is what it is. I backed off when you pointed out your past post where you had already made the change on your read. Town can trip here. I'm far less likely to trip like that as scum. You don't need to believe me here though and even if you do, I believe you should keep your vote on me.

[Rad]

Like if you compare your posts to BBT, none of his posts seem in anyway agenday

Meh, scum doesn't need to play like they've got an agenda. I think scum!BBT is fully capable of playing without an obvious agenda. Malcolm's hard stance on me having a constant scum agenda is what made me scum read him so hard. It's kind of a rigid view on BBT here tbh. I read him town specifically for how he interacted with my wagon in a previous day but there's nothing about his play here that is outside his scum range IMO.

[Rad]

The BBT thing was me misremembering stuff and talking about it openly without re-checking things first. It is what it is. I backed off when you pointed out your past post where you had already made the change on your read. Town can trip here. I'm far less likely to trip like that as scum. You don't need to believe me here though and even if you do, I believe you should keep your vote on me.

Well what about what BB just pointed out then? All of the hedgey paranoia reads? Like you have to have some slots you’re confidently tr?

I gave me most recent reads in 13736. I hard town read CSF and BBT atm. You're probably my other highest read. I hard read RCE as town before replacing out.

[Rad]

Like if you compare your posts to BBT, none of his posts seem in anyway agenday

Meh, scum doesn't need to play like they've got an agenda. I think scum!BBT is fully capable of playing without an obvious agenda. Malcolm's hard stance on me having a constant scum agenda is what made me scum read him so hard. It's kind of a rigid view on BBT here tbh. I read him town specifically for how he interacted with my wagon in a previous day but there's nothing about his play here that is outside his scum range IMO.

I disagree. His recent play is very different than his play pre-doc claim. I don’t understand how you’re not seeing that?

It's weird how different people can see things differently huh? I dunno how that's a scum tell for you, but it's whatever.

[Rad]

Drap's my paranoid scum read along with the masons. But that's probably bullshit paranoia and he's probably just town tracker

who's not all that invested in the game

.

@RAD please explain this read. In what world is Drap “not that invested in the game”?

Drap pops in and yells that me and Johnny are town and pops out. Over and over.

[Rad]

I feel like Drap probably doesn't read the entire thread either. Like why didn't he respond at all to this question from his top town read?

Drap can you give some general thoughts on why you're sure Malcolm is scum? Or point to a post where you spell them out? I can't remember if you've posted one like that.

[Rad]

Drap's my paranoid scum read along with the masons. But that's probably bullshit paranoia and he's probably just town tracker

who's not all that invested in the game

.

@RAD please explain this read. In what world is Drap “not that invested in the game”?

Drap pops in and yells that me and Johnny are town and pops out. Over and over.

So how are you reading that as “not invested”? He also keeps trying to find alternative wagons to you and Johnny and ONLY you and Johnny. He apparently doesn’t care about his hard tr on Taly slot or his inno on me, which I think is wild.

But he is one of the most highly invested slots in the game. I think only you and BB would rank higher on that paradigm, wouldn’t you say?

You think BB is highly invested in this game? Lol I don't see it.

You and me are from what I can tell the most invested people in this game. Maybe Luke trumps us if he's still actually making cases from the dead LOL

[Rad]

Whatever you guys think!

Please help push the Rad wagon chooo chooo

[Rad]

Whatever you guys think!

Please help push the Rad wagon chooo chooo

I mean - what do you think I've been doing?

You've been doing great, keep it up!

[Rad]

Rad, I don't understand this whole 'elim me' thing you've got going on and it's incredibly scummy.

Yessss let's do this

[Rad]

Sorry if I'm being annoying pushing a Rad wagon so hard. I didn't think I'd have to continuously push it for this long to make it a reality. I truly think my slot is fucked at end game here in all sorts of ways. If I back off from pushing my wagon here, the "scum gambit" idea prevails. If I keep pushing it, I probably just annoy the shit out of everyone and that counters what I was going for initially, which was cleaning up the game state for town with my elim and making end game safer.

I don't know what the best plan is at this point. Someone tell me what to do here. I'm completely burned out from defending myself. I'm not one to just quit a game, especially one I put so much effort into, and I saw this as a way to finish the game in a way that should ultimately help town.

[Rad]

Sorry if I'm being annoying pushing a Rad wagon so hard. I didn't think I'd have to continuously push it for this long to make it a reality. I truly think my slot is fucked at end game here in all sorts of ways. If I back off from pushing my wagon here, the "scum gambit" idea prevails. If I keep pushing it, I probably just annoy the shit out of everyone and that counters what I was going for initially, which was cleaning up the game state for town with my elim and making end game safer.

I don't know what the best plan is at this point. Someone tell me what to do here. I'm completely burned out from defending myself. I'm not one to just quit a game, especially one I put so much effort into, and I saw this as a way to finish the game in a way that should ultimately help town.

The best thing you can do is not talk about yourself so much. There's no need to defend yourself if you think it's best for the game that you die. Focus your energy on others.

Fair, ty for the advice.

[Rad]

Drap has explained his read on me many times, and his johnny read at least somewhat comes from Luke dying before TBone when scum team knows TBone is protective before that in a scum!Johnny scenario. That's where my stronger johnny town read comes from too and we appear to be the only 2 people who at least openly believe that makes johnny town.

My paranoia of him comes from a scum!Drap being able to easily lean on what he knows is a legit day 1 ceph vote stance and just openly town binning me for it. Like town!Drap is really sharp here to recognize it as hard townie and scum!Drap doesn't have to be as sharp.

[Rad]

I'll sheep Pooky sheeping Drap. Sounds fun.

VOTE: C&G

[Rad]

sadness

[Rad]

I don't think I'm hammerable yet?

[Rad]

I think it's this right now:

(Best Bird, butterflies, Cytosine and Guanine, MalcolmTucker, furtiveglance, PookyTheMagicalBear) - 6

[Rad]

Butterchurn's recent votes on me and reasoning make me feel better about the masons

[Rad]

At this point me neither! Just some intuition bs

[Rad]

Rad can you reexplain/quote why you willingly want people to vote for you and for your elimination to go through? I just don’t see the townie pov for willingly want to die guaranteed 100% when we could just otherwise have a shot at a possible mafia. It is so foreign to me that someone would genuinely think like that as town that my best guess rn is that your are ate flailing scum.

If I'm still alive in a couple hours I'll post a few quotes from me. I gotta run for a few

[Rad]

If i survive this, I will literally sheep Drap's votes for the rest of the game.

[Rad]

Luke's case is solid and I should be flipped here, and I'm still town.

I'll get to Yeet's request here in a bit. I'm not in a position to really dig through my ISO atm.

[Rad]

Luke's case is solid and I should be flipped here, and I'm still town.

I'll get to Yeet's request here in a bit. I'm not in a position to really dig through my ISO atm.

Noting the lack of vote here.

I was second guessing my approach here but Drap's confirming my thoughts on being the smart lim here so I'm fine hammering myself in a bit. 2 hours I'll be around.

[Rad]

In the meantime, people have 2 hours to change their mind

[Rad]

Luke's case is solid and I should be flipped here, and I'm still town.

I'll get to Yeet's request here in a bit. I'm not in a position to really dig through my ISO atm.

Noting the lack of vote here.

I was second guessing my approach here but Drap's confirming my thoughts on being the smart lim here so I'm fine hammering myself in a bit. 2 hours I'll be around.

I'm sure you are...

pff oh please, even you know I'm just town here.

[Rad]

Alright let's see.

VOTE: Rad

We'll start with this. E-1 I believe.

[Rad]

VOTE: mt

Anyways do me a favor after I’m dead pls look at OTH: my townread decreased on that slot over the last few days (not RT days)

I think rad is town, bbt is town, PD is town, I’m warming up to BUtterflies town, CG is town, the masons are town.
Tbone is prob town along with pooky

My POE is within the following:
{OTH, BB, mislim bait, rce, JF, CSF, MT}

VOTE: mt

Anyways do me a favor after I’m dead pls look at OTH: my townread decreased on that slot over the last few days (not RT days)

I think rad is town, bbt is town, PD is town, I’m warming up to BUtterflies town, CG is town, the masons are town.
Tbone is prob town along with pooky

My POE is within the following:
{OTH, BB, mislim bait, rce, JF, CSF, MT}

It would help you gave reasons?

~Nancyfly

I mean it’s part of just Eliminarion at this point.

OTH has a mirror part of my role and tbh I can see scum having a similar role
Bb is leaning town IMO, but I could just be wrong
I don’t really think bbt and csf exsist together as town so one of them has to be scum and I don’t think it’s bbt.
MT is my highest pick for scum
As for MLB rce & jf they are just picks at this point

But bbt and csf need to resolve. Mt needs to go. I’d be down to say of the rest it’s MLB -> Rce -> JF

I'm going to quote Mala again cause Mala's just better than me and played a shit game on purpose, but this should be considered tomorrow and not lost. I don't think a ton has changed this day to suggest a huge difference in her final list of:

{OTH, BB, mislim bait, rce, JF, CSF, MT}

I did already comment on this in my 13736 post, which I considered my legacy but then I didn't get limmed immediately like I thought I would.

I'll update my comments a bit.

From Mala's list, I feel better about

mislim bait

and worse about

rce

.

Furtive

sounds weird here.

RCE

could just be a really strong player that didn't have to play his best game in that scum game I played with him.

CSF

is just town.

JF

, I don't understand why people aren't more convinced with the NK order but it is what it is, maybe it's not actually significant.

Malcolm

just hard to read, I don't think it would be terrible to take him out soon. Like he handled our convo better than I could as scum but he's also just a better player so whatever.

OTH

I have no read on still. I've swung back and forth on them throughout the game tbh, heavy town to heavy scum, no particular reasons though.

Masons

might just be masons.

I think a better kill today than me is actually Roden to confirm or implicate Butterchurn.

Reason being, if Butterchurn becomes confirmed town, you gotta kill BBT, Drap, and then Butterchurn. So you get Butterchurn for like 3 days as confirmed town. Roden's lack of input this game gives me the scum read and if Butterchurn is town, maybe he ups his input and becomes a significant threat.

[Rad]

You could also just decide to kill me tomorrow if you chose Roden today and he flipped green. You still get Butterchurn as confirmed and we get new night info to work on. Or we caught 2 scum and you get to decide if scum!Rad gave up his 2 partners to save himself.

[Rad]

Drap you can hammer me right now if you want. I'm not being wolfy, I'm giving my final thoughts.

[Rad]

This is one of the more frustrating things with this game if I'm honest. I can't really throw out ideas without being jumping on me for them. Like fuck off and hammer me bro.

[Rad]

This is one of the more frustrating things with this game if I'm honest. I can't really throw out ideas without being jumping on me for them. Like fuck off and hammer me bro.

*being jumped on for them

[Rad]

I'm done, you can hammer

[Rad]

Yoooo thanks everyone for the game. Spoilers:

I'm Ben the scumbag MUAHAHA

.

Spoiler:

I kid, I'm

Libby the VT

for reals.

GG <3

[Rad]

This game was full of both fun and frustration. It took up a significant portion of my life the past month+ and I'm content to move on. Apologies if I pissed anyone off! I got a wild imagination in this game as town. Large games are too much for me I think. I can't sort them after a certain amount of posts, I start forgetting important things, and I no longer have the ability or desire to ISO anyone. Might join a post-restricted large game one day cause it really was mostly fun. This game could go on another 1-2 months and I don't think I could follow that properly enough to solve end game.

I considered replacing out but I feel like I've put in a ton of effort this game and selfishly wanted to finish it in some way, and this was the most townie way I believe I could. Now I'm sorted, people can look at all the wagons on me, interactions with me, and my slot is not a liability at end game.

I hope you guys liked some of my more fun content! I enjoyed writing it and was almost too embarrassed to post it but I'm glad I did I'm not nearly as outspoken irl as I am in these games so it was a nice outlet.

[Rad]

lol thanks Drap you were fun to play with whatever you flip here

[Rad]

Town Tracker

I was ready to bet on that. In fact, knowing that I was ready to fully sheep you the rest of the game and not continuing to defend me feels pretty townie.

[Rad]

congrats on escaping dude

omg I get to sleep and not wake up thinking about this game, so fucking awesome

[Rad]

Also great case Luke (or scum!BBT liar, which I doubt, the liar part). I'd have flipped me too. Unfortunately logic doesn't always apply to the players eh?

[Rad]

Yeah good sus on Bella here. I'll be honest, I kinda has a sus on her too, but because I tunneled her so fucking hard in my newbie where we were both town, I didn't trust my bella read AT ALL.

[Rad]

@RAD, I still think that humour post warrants a scummie nom.

I’ll miss reading your posts. <3

Thanks Nancy! <3

[Rad]

Drap I'd reconsider your csf read if I were you. I might be wrong on that slot, but she defended me kinda hard and pushed malcolm when she didn't need to.

[Rad]

I mean I trust your read here more than my own but like, I just don't see why she does that when she does it. Yesterday as my wagon ramps up she counters it. Today she maintains the malcolm flip over me. Why? Anyway, just consider it for me.

[Rad]

Luke wants me to share, particularly to drap, rad, and nancy as they have all commented on scum!johnny killing t-bone because he claimed protective in the pt, that johnny said this

telling me he had a one shot protect that he was using on Luke.

So, there was no reason for scum!johnny to think he needed to prioritize T-bone as he claimed 1 shot and his target.

Oh I missed that. Well I guess that chances things.

[Rad]

Johnny's not a terrible flip next. I know drap will lose his shit if Johnny flips green lol but town!Johnny's the same risk as I was. May as well resolve that sooner than later. And if tbone claimed 1 shot protective then the order theory is garbage.

[Rad]

Johnny's not a terrible flip next. I know drap will lose his shit if Johnny flips green lol but town!Johnny's the same risk as I was. May as well resolve that sooner than later. And if tbone claimed 1 shot protective then the order theory is garbage.

1 shot protective *that was already used on Luke

I would question whether scum would be afraid of the possibility of tbone fake claiming 1 slot to try to trick scum team into targeting Luke again in case of scum!Johnny, would they be worried of that scenario and target tbone anyway?

[Rad]

Also is the 1 shot a bodyguard? If so that means tbone didn't actually protect Luke? I don't have a strong grasp of the potential mechanics stuff here so nevermind.

[Rad]

Drap I'd hear you out about Johnny if I was still in the game, but the mechanics don't seem to clear anymore do they? And do you not see johnny as the same type of liability that you settled on for me? Johnny could be scum here yeah? Are you 100% sure he's not? And haven't we already concluded with my lim here that saving all town is not always the best path forward? I get that you have stronger scum reads than johnny but it seems reasonable other people are reading him scum here. Even if he is a LHF ML target, like, just figure out which scum are taking him down instead of loudly hard defending him ya know?

[Rad]

Yeeesss! GG

@Rad

Really sorry that I pushed for your elim so hard even after my death lmao. The links I saw between you and flipped scum were just too powerful for me to keep you as town in my reads, even after having you as a pretty strong town read day 1/2. Maybe i should have trusted my earlier reads more

You were great to play with, and I hope to see you in more games!

Bahaha all good, and thanks, you too! I knew I was doomed after Bell got NK'd and Bella flipped scum. Was just a matter of time. I'd have flipped me too.

This game became pretty unplayable for me a bit before I started pushing for my own lim. Like I couldn't parse anyone anymore, I was forgetting stuff but ISOs were too large to refresh my memory, I started feeling useless and knew my slot was a liability due to flip/scum associations.

congrats(?) on completing the second-longest game in site history, everyone!

Wow!

congrats(?) on completing the second-longest game in site history, everyone!

#1 largest day in Day 1

I absolutely believe that. The pace was wild to keep up with but I read every single post.

Thanks STD and catboi for modding!

[Rad]

I have a really dumb theory about why Klick dropped that I won't even go over until end game, that's probably influencing me some, but I try not to let it.

Me too! I wonder if we have the same reason?!?!

Would "Klick the honorable" make sense with your theory?

Rad, my theory was that Klick and Bella had spoken about the game and he knew Bella was scum so replaced out.

Was that the same as yours?

Close yeah. Not that they spoke about the game, but that Klick noticed something (maybe saw her phone open to scum PT or something) that confirmed Bella was scum and repped out because of it.

[Rad]

I tried not to let it effect my read but couldn't help it!

Yeah same I conf biased MLB for the rest of the game

[Rad]

Massive props to Math for keeping us all entertained in dead thread. <3

Agree, Math kept the dead thread fun

@RAD, your list still warrants a scummie nom as post of the year and I strongly encourage someone to make it in case, I’m (very likely) to lazy to do it.

Too kind <3

[Rad]

but seriously...i'm assuming the dead PT formed after my 2nd shot...?

Yep that's correct. They were waiting for that to create it.