House of the Dragon - Game Over!

[Datisi]

I'm not sure that he's actually reliable when it comes to scumhunting.

never before have i been so offended by something i one hundred percent agree with

anyway, obligatory mech shit: i'm gonna go out on a limb and say that we should not be confined to the three choices that mastina proposed. we should also focus on electing someone we already think is town rather than someone who is "easy to read". it seems to me that the "execution" mechanic is net neutral in town hands but potentially scumsiding in scum hands. assuming the king isn't a gamethrower, it's more important that town hold it.

also a townie town king would potentially make it easier to determine whether there's scum in the kingsguard.

VOTE: firebringer

i feel a vibe here.

[Datisi]

VOTE: Dannflor

LLD is not a bad choice but I think Dannflor is easier to read

can i get your thought process behind this post and vote?

[Datisi]

oh yeah

@pooky - v/la every wednesday and thursday due to uni schedule

@rhaenyra - get an avatar pls, it would make the game easier to read for me

[Datisi]

Spoiler: How i picture Datisi ever other game day as king

Spoiler: live footage of me every other day if i were made king

lukewarm is right, btw. i do a lot of stressed tinfoil posting when i'm town in an important position. and i don't think i'm capable of replicating that stressed tinfoil posting as scum. so i would also be a very easy read if i were made king. wink wink nudge nudge

[Datisi]

andante twon yes?

[Datisi]

andante twon yes?

why did you say this and was it for a reason other than wallpost = town

from what i remember, my one encounter with scum-andante was that she was kinda shitposty and didn't care about the game much

and i think town-andante tends to be tryhard srsbsns early, like in invictus

why do you find them scummy?

[Datisi]

Ok maybe, though 68 is still weird.

why is it weird?

[Datisi]

unowen, do you think junko is scum for this?

[Datisi]

i have a very silly and probably very wrong reason to townread baltar

[Datisi]

unowen, do you think junko is scum for this?

I wouldn't go that far. Most suspicious so far though.

what makes her suspicious? like, even if it's true that she was pretending not to notice the word seven... what's scummy about that?

[Datisi]

To instead go with the scum pt theory feels more likely to be someone trying to pretend to be unobservant.

i still don't get what scum-junko gains by doing this

[Datisi]

kind of?

do you think that's odd?

[Datisi]

i was moreso hoping you'd tell me why you're seemingly accepting the 3-person pool for king that mastina proposed

and those two things aren't mutually exclusive - i do consider myself a great scum player, but i also know my limits. consistently faking paranoia is one of them, consistently solving and faking paranoia *in a way that i do* when given an important position is pretty much impossible for scumtisi.

[Datisi]

why not vote Andante here?

don't open if your name is andante:

Spoiler:

i don't want town-andante to be king, if there are other potential options. i don't actually think her reads are great, and i think town-her is very impulsive and possibly wouldn't listen to the rest of town when making decisions. though still a better choice than a scum king obviously.

[Datisi]

i was moreso hoping you'd tell me why you're seemingly accepting the 3-person pool for king that mastina proposed

you're projecting or making an assumption there, I don't think it has to be Martina's 3 person pool and I never said as much. There was a wagon on LLD but I'd prefer Dann if I'm making a blind pick. I'm probably (likely?) gonna switch my vote several times today as I start to Get Reads anyway

i am, hence the "seemingly" - the way you responded in 100 made me think you were locked in voting between those 3 choices, or like, you're expecting the vote is gonna end up between those 3

pedit:

consistently faking paranoia is one of them, consistently solving and faking paranoia *in a way that i do* when given an important position is pretty much impossible for scumtisi.

I don't know, I'm chewing on this and I think it's possible that town!you might believe this but I'm still not sold that town!you believes

other people

can believe this. Like you really think your scum game is so noticeably weak in that regard (even if we say specifically from an elected/important position) that you'd be an easy sort? Do you have an example game where you failed to play well from such a position as scum?

well for one, prism's guardians of the fortress is a prime example of me going ballistic townie under an important position, and lukewarm and baltar are both players that played in that game. so i think at the very least, those two would be able to tell the difference, even if there is nobody else immediately familiar with it. and also i think you would probably be able to tell too, because my mindset when posting in hoods as town is kinda similar.

i don't have an example of such a scumgame, i'm just assuming i'd be bad at it because i know i struggle convincingly faking paranoia towards people that know me, and that position would be require faking paranoia to the max.

i do recall saying something along the lines of "i'll townspew in a way i know scumtisi can't replicate" in guardians as well.

[Datisi]

like, i don't really care if other people people believe that *right now* - if i'm elected king, it's most likely going to result in a flurry of paranoia that people are gonna townread anyway.

[Datisi]

well i will certainly try!

what gives you a lamist vibe about my first post?

[Datisi]

I guess it was mainly that the stuff you were saying like "we should elect someone we think is town" or that the execution is "potentially scumsiding in scum hands" felt really obvious to me so explaining it felt pointless and stiff, like scum thinking their first post needs to be a Clear Thought Process on the mech

the thread climate when i entered seemed to be agreeing with "let's lock the choices in between these three people because they're Good Players, despite us having zero reads on any of them!!", at least it was fmpov. "can we prioritize picking someone who is town rather than someone who is good at mafia" didn't feel really obvious.

[Datisi]

it's for THE GOOD of THE GAME

[Datisi]

andante, have you considered that it's sunday afternoon when i have a lot of free time and i'd be posting regardless of my role?

[Datisi]

well andante is town and if i say she's not town at some point in this game, please point me to this post, thanks in advance

[Datisi]

@andante - i don't remember a single game where you did not scumread me lmao

@firebringer - why not

[Datisi]

yeah idk why i thought that i would be able to get a read out of fire's reaction to my vote there (before you ask: yes, i did have a slight town vibe from him as well, shut up)

i am still slightly vibing fire town but i am watching

@baltar, how come you did not comment anything about me yet?

[Datisi]

If you want to talk though, whyd you town ping me?

you usually rvs vote to yeet me

you also rvs voted me here

but we're not voting to yeet, we're voting for kinging

does baltar not know what we are voting for?

so he probably doesn't have access to a scum pt where they probably talked about it

[Datisi]

no

[Datisi]

@andante - i don't remember a single game where you did not scumread me lmao

@firebringer - why not

tbf in how many of those were you scum?

i'm p sure there are more-than-zero games that i was not scum in

but also i completely forgot about invictus (a game where i was town and andante was correctly townreading me) so y'know

[Datisi]

So it seems like what you're actually saying is that andante is pretty good at reading you, which makes your reaction here kind of odd to me.

no, i'm not. i was referring to her "he's kinda reminding me of past games where I just went "yolo he's town, NEXT!"" from 145, because i forgot that the game where she did that (invictus) existed.

in general, andante's reads change very often, so i think in most games she's scumread me at some point, as she did almost everyone else. also, her reads are very influenced by others' reads on her, i remember her fosing me a lot of times because "how dare you think i'm scum here". even when i was scum in those games and she was technically correct, that's not a good read of me.

[Datisi]

you would town bin her for scum reading you then?

i what

[Datisi]

so, in a shorter day phase, 150 posts would not be enough to post proper content

and since 150 is comparatively EVEN LESS in this day phase... you've instead decided to use NONE of the posts productively?

[Datisi]

why are you not playing the game normally again?

[Datisi]

dats why u focused on professor shit posts and them positng posts.

because i'm currently musing over whether that can be a scum strategy to not do shit on d1 when we can't yeet anyone yet

i thought he might've just been a bad scum player, but i see he was scum in aliensitter needed and he at least posted content, so my original thought isn't as valid as i'd like it to be, but i still Do Not Like It

---

lukewarm and baltar are overlooking the key difference between guardians and this game - an ic is always going to be a townie, the question is just whether it's gonna be me or another townie. here, king isn't guaranteed to be town. i know i'm town.

---

VOTE: dwlee

why dwlee? i was starting to feel they're kinda scummy

---

noting that enchant is still firmly in their scum-meta

---

i like dannflor's thoughts on andante. they strongly remind me of the reactions i had as town when i first encountered town-andante. it's just... you can't read her based on that stuff lol

Andante is being andante nothing to worry about here. Town

is adante just like super super polarized or something

yes

yeah idk why i thought that i would be able to get a read out of fire's reaction to my vote there (before you ask: yes, i did have a slight town vibe from him as well, shut up)

i am still slightly vibing fire town but i am watching

@baltar, how come you did not comment anything about me yet?

can you uh put words to this vibe at all

not really...? it's like, he seems engaged with the game. which by itself doesn't exactly mean much, but i think firebringer knows that me and guiltylion will be taking note of his behaviour this game and comparing it to HDP. and i think having an explosive start means that he's setting a first impression that he then has to uphold, and i think scum-fire would be slightly more hesitant play that way early than town-fire? also, i can feel myself having a sort of slow start, and i like the fact he's called me out, so

I kinda have a hard time believing you actually want to make him King (no offense fire)

it's still on fire because i haven't yet found a better place for it lole

and i unironically would make firebringer king. he had excellent reads in HDP, and while he likes having fun, i don't think he would outright throw as king.

[Datisi]

ok so uhhh

andante town, dannflor firebringer and vp baltar feel town

VOTE: vp baltar anyone?

my usual way of reading vp baltar is "townread him if he does something that i don't think scum-him would do", HOWEVER i have realized that i can use a "townread him if he does not do something that i know scum-him would do" here

i'm realizing how much i actually rely on being able to push stuff with my votes and how it's throwing me off, which is annoying but oh well

[Datisi]

I like want to townread Datisi but if I'm honest with myself his posts make me feel nothing

then why do you *want* to townread me?

[Datisi]

On the IC part, idk, feels like you're splitting hairs. King is going to be a lot of responsibility I assume, and the feeling seems like it would be similar since, as you confirm, you know you're town.

Are you advocating for yourself to be king now seriously?

feelings are similar, yes. but we're hella far from yelo, i potentially take the job away from scum, and i very likely take myself out of the misyeet pool, which the king role wasn't designed to do. the differences feel much greater than "splitting hairs".

i am, yeah. i'm not planning to like, try to force it through, because i think it's more hassle than it's actually worth, but i definitely wouldn't refuse it.

[Datisi]

i am very likely going to just ignore andante's paranoid babble in this phase unless someone else specifically wants my answer to something, ok cool next

"townread him if he does not do something that i know scum-him would do"

What did I not do that you were expecting if I was scum?

you went from not knowing we're voting for king to knowing we're voting for king (and i'm assuming you weren't lying about it, because otherwise the early vote for me doesn't make sense even if you're scum)

now, your reaction to learning that you were wrong about the mech was like, nonexistent. i've noticed that scum-you has like these... overblown reactions to learning mechanics. like in the first mini we played together, where you did the "does the scum have daytalk???" thing; but much more notably in this post in ktane... i feel like scum-you would've on instinct fallen back into having similar reactions to mech stuff, and you just *didn't* here, so

If you want my quick thoughts - I am not coming in assuming GuiltyLion and Datisi choreographed a fake argument to Town Read each other as Partners, though this assumes Datisi knew I was in the game. Btw, Datisi has used such a move as Scum in the past (fake an argument with a Partner, end up TR each other, and moved on swiftly). Datisi may not remember this, but Iconeum and him faked a fight in the early part of a game they were both Scum in, just so that they could end up TR’ing each other and wouldn’t have to fake paranoia about each other later in the game. But Ico and Datisi I had seen be very paranoid of each other (particularly Datisi of Ico) as Town, so I could understand why that play made sense.

I’m assuming such an interaction may not make sense between GL and Datisi, and I actually don’t think GL would have gone for it. They come across as rational and rather controlled. So faking an argument is a difficult ask. For what it’s worth, I thought GL came out looking much Townier after that exchange, and I’m not currently TR’ing Datisi.

(1) i knew you were in the game because i check the playerlists of games i'm in in case anyone i have blacklisted tries to join
(2) of course i remember it... that fight was not fake. i thought he was town; he was a traitor. we never planned to do that, i did that so town-ico wouldn't murder me, but then he turned out to be my traitor. so i immediately stopped fighting him because he was on a sorta bad streak as scum and i didn't wanna make him die lole

why do you find guiltylion to be townie in that exchange?

So, in general... the math of the game is hung on a knife's edge and people should be far more concerned with finding and backing their most townie candidate, even if they think that player would be a "bad king", so long as they are town and they're willing to listen and allow the game to progress... we're in a better spot than the alternative which is one bad vote away from death.

this is wrong? like, the king can't execute two days in a row, right? even if they scummed it up and outed themselves as scum by exe'ing an obvious town, we just yeet them the next day?

jesus fuck do i hate mechanical arguments

in the andres/ladyld fight on page 13, i like andres much better than ladyld. or like, the way he's arguing feels like he actually believes what he's saying, and also the read on baltar seems perfectly fine to me. the whole argument almost gives a vibe of lld being annoyed that baltar is getting townread for something she percieves he shouldn't be townread for

finished w page 13, posting this now because i see there's 10 billion pedits yaaay

[Datisi]

shea, have you continued our conversation from yesterday? i didn't see it in the pedits, but it's possible i missed it

if i didn't, please do so

[Datisi]

shea, have you continued our conversation from yesterday? i didn't see it in the pedits, but it's possible i missed it

if i didn't, please do so

I will after I get through the thread. But I thought we had already reached a pretty reasonable stopping point where you told me that I was misunderstanding what you were saying and I was just going to drop it for now. Is there something in particular you want to touch on?

i don't remember from memory, i just know that i left at something that i wanted you to acknowledge/respond. seeing you shove me under "ehh" reminded me of that, let me go look

yeah ok i wanted an acknowledgement of 179

and i also want you to talk why exactly am i in the pile i am

(there's a point to this i swear)

[Datisi]

Shea improving with a little rage as fuel is town.

can you explain what this means? or like, why is shea town to you?

yes, i did just read that you often refuse to explain townreads, but i am still asking

[Datisi]

she always scum reads you and that made you feel better about her?

because that is not why i townread her... i thought her posts showed the amount of rapid-firing, utter-nonsense paranoia that i felt she would struggle to fake as scum. whatever post of hers was before i called her town, was a post where i felt she had so many of those thoughts in rapid succession that she was very likely town for it

i was ready to murder you if you claimed to scumread me over it, but the explanation you gave for the read on me seems *fine*, so i guess

ok so uhhh

andante town, dannflor firebringer and vp baltar feel town

VOTE: vp baltar anyone?

my usual way of reading vp baltar is "townread him if he does something that i don't think scum-him would do", HOWEVER i have realized that i can use a "townread him if he does not do something that i know scum-him would do" here

i'm realizing how much i actually rely on being able to push stuff with my votes and how it's throwing me off, which is annoying but oh well

Similarly can you explain a VP town position? I've had a few pings in the opposite direction personally.

This whole post feels very incongruous to me. Like, I understand using a heuristic of "ok I will assume x is town until shown otherwise for the purposes of scum hunting" but I have a hard time seeing why town!you would extend such logic to voting to put that person in the most powerful position in the game.

explained partly in 381, partly unexplained yet because i am looking for something

that is not my logic for townreading baltar. it's not "town until proven otherwise", it's "town because he did not do [action] that i think scum-him would've done"

what's bugging you about him?

[Datisi]

firebringer, do you have anyone else you want to give the crown to currently?

[Datisi]

datisi can you talk about your read on me

I'm kinda uncomfy with you town binning me

well, it is mostly projection, but

204 and 208 are your thoughts on andante, and i think they make sense from a townie pov. because i know how it feels to meet andante for the first time and be ??? at what she's doing and how she's playing. i also think as scum it's easy to see that stuff, and think you have found an easy target to push. but your posts just... don't feel like you're trying to project to us why andante is scum, or show how much effort you're putting into sorting her, it feels real and as if you're actually talking to her and trying to sort her.

also the tinfoily part of my brain is telling me that if you were scum, *someone* in your scumteam would know andante and warn you that she's basically an omgus machine and also that she is just like that as town and so it's not worth the struggle in early game... but tinfoiling

why is baltar a bad vote?

[Datisi]

Still catching up, but also making a note if dann ever flips scum, there was probably a coordinated effort by scum in the king nominations. The dann is boring/rationale, ergo king logic is a little flimsy for my taste given idk if he had even posted yet at that point?

I really didn't like this. it doesn't feel like a real thought to me and more something thrown out there to look like he is having Townie Thought Processes about the game

idk I think if you think about it for a little longer I don't know why scum strategy would ever involve hard boosting a buddy who hasn't posted yet. like I don't think this is something scum players ever actually would think about, think is a good idea, and do

since then I just get busywork vibes from their posts. Like they feel a need to be around and show they are having Thought Processes but I haven't seen anything yet that really sticks out to me as a townie thought. I realize that's vague but I'm not sure how else to describe it

the dwlee vote kinda feels like a vote to avoid any major wagons. like I'd kinda expect some sort of explanation to convince if Baltar actually was getting town vibes there but right now it's a vanity vote. and I kinda expect scum to feel pretty awkward about who to vote at this stage of the game

do you have reasons for Baltar town beyond their trajectory on you?

beyond what i already explained (and refused to explain), no

i think you might be biased in viewing that post negatively since it's kind of negatively talking about you; i agree the thought process isn't ~stellar~ but i don't think town-baltar always has those (no offense <3)

as for the rest of your points, they're fine, i guess. i don't really agree, but i also don't feel like forcing my views through when i am not that sure of them yet, so

[Datisi]

I'd probably townbin andante and andres at this point. Dann and

datisi are maybe in town lean territory for me

. Dwlee I could see as town who hasn't had a real chance to engage yet.

can i get a why on the bolded?

[Datisi]

@Datisi when I form an original thought on GL that hasn’t already been expressed I’ll share it. There’s been more than a few posts from Dann and Thestatusquo that I basically agree quite strongly with. I’m thinking 209 and 377.

meh, i was hoping there would be some original thought, because i actually did not like gl's 108 at the time.

how did the clarification about my fight with ico in that one mini help you with your read on me here?

[Datisi]

I don’t think I have been able to convince myself that you’re trustworthy this game. There’s something I can’t articulate that is bothering me about your posting. Like I almost want you to get into a fight with someone so I can feel some towny fire from you that I’m not getting. Like I’m not reading your posts and thinking to myself Datisi cares about the outcome of this game. But that’s not particularly strong either way so I haven’t made up my mind.

mmm

in most of the games we've played together and you were town in, you were able to nail my alignment down pretty quickly? like, what i remember from doing the meta search in yeetlo in bunnies, it would usually happen soon. why do you consider your thought here to not be strong?

[Datisi]

I don’t think I have been able to convince myself that you’re trustworthy this game. There’s something I can’t articulate that is bothering me about your posting. Like I almost want you to get into a fight with someone so I can feel some towny fire from you that I’m not getting. Like I’m not reading your posts and thinking to myself Datisi cares about the outcome of this game. But that’s not particularly strong either way so I haven’t made up my mind.

mmm

in most of the games we've played together and you were town in, you were able to nail my alignment down pretty quickly? like, what i remember from doing the meta search in yeetlo in bunnies, it would usually happen soon. why do you consider your thought here to not be strong?

Precisely because I’m not landing on you as Town immediately is that I’m suspicious of you, if that makes any sense.

kind of but not really - i'd be expecting that if you don't think i'm town, you'd think i'm scum. but you're expressing this weird "oh this is not strong either way, idk yet" that i don't remember you ever saying as town when reading me?

[Datisi]

why do you want mastina to be king, rhae?

[Datisi]

ah yes, scumtisi townreading vp baltar, a strategy widely known to have only the effect of him getting pocketed and never resulting in that blowing up in scumtisi's face, very good

[Datisi]

from what i remember, that win was despite that, not due to that... i feel like there has been some non-zero number of times where scum-me bs'ed a townread on you early and then got called out due to not having paranoia? like i think even in that game you called it out as odd

hold on i shall go check if i'm insane or not

[Datisi]

pedit -- has it actually blown up in your face datisi? I think you used that strat to some success in that one game you snowed me if my memory isn't complete swiss cheese.

ok, bad news - viewtopic.php?p=12600763#p12600763 - that is the closest thing i can find that constitutes as you having a bad reaction to a townread from scum-me

i did read a bit of our relevant dual isos in the go large theme (lol, hipshots), and i was not townreading you there actually, i was actually spewing some nonsense on why i was paranoid of you because ??? idfk lmao

and my early read on you in frienemies was also a scumread

so, what did we learn:

(1) source for 515: i made it the fuck up

(2) i was so traumatized by baltar saying "we are in uncharted territory here" in mini 2195 that i decided to always scumread him early as scum, and therefore i am locktown this game because i towread him early

[Datisi]

VOTE: Datisi

are you voting for me just because you know i'm gonna make you master of coin or whatever other title you want

[Datisi]

how about we make me king instead

i promise to consistently post in thread with no promises about quality

[Datisi]

actually, drapion is by far the smartest person in this game, because this thread currently makes me wanna do nothing but shitpost

[Datisi]

actually, drapion is by far the smartest person in this game, because this thread currently makes me wanna do nothing but shitpost

[Datisi]

when you double post in a post restricted game. whoopsies.

my ego is telling me andres' reads of me do not Hold Up to his priors, but also we've seen tonight how good my memory actually is so i'm gonna sleep on it.

i do think it's townie?? for baltar to be pushing andres to be king, because uh. i don't think scum-baltar would want that to happen. and i know baltar is pretty good at reading andres, so maybe i should stop being egoistical. surely they're not scum together haha surely not

[Datisi]

wasn't there one game andres was scum in not that long ago? I should probably glance at that to check myself. Help me out datisi since your the encyclopedia of mafia

at your service

viewtopic.php?t=88600

[Datisi]

so, i slept on it and i am back to not trusting andres' read on me this game ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ

i went to check the relevant games, and yeah. the game that he referenced earlier, he basically entered saying "datisi is scum". and in a different game we played in when we were both town (2201) his first professed read on me early on was "datisi is town". the scumgame of his that i link however, had a weird non-commital early read of me

and rereading his solving of my slot this game, i just get very reminded of the scum-andres vibe from the scumgame... like, he first mentions me in 247, but most of the post is talking about how i'm not partners with guiltylion, and "i'm not townreading datisi btw" is basically an afterthought. it feels like he's moreso trying to show that he's thinking about my alignment and relations with other people, but the actual read of me isn't that important to him and it's completely secondary

once i call him out on remembering that game wrong, that thought ends up going nowhere. the second paragraph of 488 really bothers me too - it's showing this uncertainty about my alignment that i don't remember seeing from town-him. or like, if those were his honest thoughts on me, i think he'd end up properly scumreading me for it. but the "i wanna see you get into a shitfight" feels like he's *expecting* that to happen at some point. and it doesn't really mesh with 496 where he says he's suspicious of me - because it feels like he's almost afraid of actually pressuring me or calling me scum outright.

---

i'm totally not stealing this read from guiltylion: lukewarm's 657 is making me nervous. something to me feels incongruent with townreading lld for not being diplomatic and not sharing townreads, but also townreading her for outlining a possible scum plan or suggesting popcorn. other than the obvious issue of "there are people here familiar with lld's towngame and the fact that she does not share townreads easily as town, and would probably call her out if she did that"... it's like the former is townreading her for not being lamist, while the latter is townreading her for actions that can easily be thought of as lamist. it feels arbitrary.

(my browser is marking "incongruent" as a misspelling, but google is telling me i spelled it correctly. weird.)

---

i will need some help reading rhae this game, because she feels like a read that i need meta for and i don't have it

---

Andante is also bit suspicious for me, the confidence in 131 gave me strong flashbacks to HDP where she was scum and made some absurd prediction about all four scum being in the gentlemen group, I get that she normally talks like this but I thought it felt a bit forced in this instance and not entirely like a natural/genuine thought to me. I don't think she's as polarized as some people in the thread have been suggesting.

do you have thoughts on the other stuff she's posted?

[Datisi]

ah, now that you mention it, another thing that bothered me about lukewarm is that he seemingly shaded me for the king stuff but didn't actually follow up on it

@baltar, no thoughts on my andres thoughts?

[Datisi]

@baltar, no thoughts on my andres thoughts?

Oh I have thoughts, but he should respond first don't you think?

if you want to. i didn't imagine his response to be that sensitive to other thoughts, but i guess it's better to not let him know where others stand on it.

i love reading all the reasons andante manages to make up for mw being scum. quality content.

[Datisi]

hi dwlee why do you have bad vibes from me and lukewarm

[Datisi]

because town-andres is generally good at reading baltar?

[Datisi]

You contradicted yourself on a townread on someone else by not townreading me

do you genuinely think that this actually makes me scum?

and unowen - i'm p sure baltar did say so in this game already, but you can ask them if you don't believe me

[Datisi]

the whole argument almost gives a vibe of lld being annoyed that baltar is getting townread for something she percieves he shouldn't be townread for

other than this ^^, not really. she's a read i feel like i have basically =rand chances of getting right, so my vague plan is to focus on the rest of the game and hope she gets readable later. i can reread her iso and try to find something, though, if you want

[Datisi]

mostly just that a lot of it isn't super memorable or town-indicative to me? I get that the hyperactivity, pendulum read swings, projected confidence in everything is Andante!indicative rather than alignment!indicative, but I'm not following how people are confidently calling it town here when she did a lot of these same things in HDP.

Can you (and any other Andante town readers who want to jump in) give me a summary of why this is specifically a town!Andante game? Or where the idea that she couldn't replicate this as scum comes from?

okay, so i went back to reread the first ~100 posts of her iso there, and it's like... i don't think anything of her iso in HDP is even remotely as townie as 136. the two isos feel like night and day. she did have the weird "lol what if 4 gentlemen scum" read, which like sure ok weird. but i feel like post after post in this game, she's coming up with new wacky theories on what is going on in the game. it's like she cannot stop herself from yelling out her reads.

contrast to hdp, where it's like... a lot of fluff posting, a lot of weird defensive "i'm not maf", and very very few reads when compared to this game.

hyperactivity maybe, but i don't feel like she did either of pendulum read swings or projected confidence in hdp. and the "4 gent scum" is like, the only wacky theory of hers i've found there, compared to... like 50 of them she's had this game probably. these two isos don't feel similar at all

[Datisi]

also, i swear i never understood the "this person is being widely townread, must be town that mafia is afraid to challenge". like, why can't they be scum that mafia has no intentions of challenging?

is there a specific reason you think Baltar is a better pick for king than your other town reads (like me)

I'm not trying to advocate you should be voting me instead I'm just curious what the difference is

not really. he's the one townread i feel like i will definitely be able to figure out down the line in case it's wrong (now that the large is over, i can say that i feel like i picked up some confidence on actually reading baltar)

but also it's like, i don't feel overly pressured to need to have my mind made up about my choice already? i'm still feeling out the game, i wanna use this time to get some sorta vibes on as many people as possible. i can move my vote once i want to move it, but i don't think we're there yet, and i'm fine having it idle on baltar. unlike normal votes, i can't use this one to pressure and reaction test.

"well datisi, you can, you just need to read those reactions differ--" shut up i don't know how to read them

[Datisi]

i am not saying their conclusion is wrong

i'm arguing with the premises

[Datisi]

i am not saying their conclusion is wrong

i'm arguing with the premises

Why tho?

because i want to? because it might result in dann responding to me in a way that makes me read him better? because i'm a petty asshole? take your pick

[Datisi]

Datisi might be feeling boxed in here.

what?

[Datisi]

cool, read my entire iso before shading me like that

[Datisi]

also, i swear i never understood the "this person is being widely townread, must be town that mafia is afraid to challenge". like, why can't they be scum that mafia has no intentions of challenging?

Also slimy

why

[Datisi]

k luke is scum

[Datisi]

but also it's like, i don't feel overly pressured to need to have my mind made up about my choice already? i'm still feeling out the game, i wanna use this time to get some sorta vibes on as many people as possible. i can move my vote once i want to move it, but i don't think we're there yet, and i'm fine having it idle on baltar. unlike normal votes, i can't use this one to pressure and reaction test.

datisi I wasn't really saying that you need to have made up your mind

I was just wondering why baltar stands out to you as being the best choice right now, unless you're saying that you don't really feel that way ?

who do you feel that you're struggling to get vibes on out of the active slots

he doesn't really stand out to me, other than having some modicum of faith about being able to read him down the line

but it's also that nobody else jumped out as being significantly better that i want to actively change my vote

out of the active slots... andres and guilty seem to be widely townread, and i can sort of see why, but i have my Concerns there

yume is a black hole

shea and junko have definitely been *present*, but nothing about them jumped at me yet

do you think i should have these reads solidified already? do you have them?

[Datisi]

I think town would be more likely to be critical of questionable methods even if they agree with the conclusions? whereas scum would just be happy someone was agreeing with their reads? I don't understand why that isn't more likely to be town trying to get high quality reads / sorting than mafia... weakening a position in the game they support?

The end result of that statement is to make people doubt Andante town reads, and it never acknowledges that. It doesn't have the "I think Andante is town anyways, but..." aspect in there, which I would expect from an uninformed view point that is entering into that conversation with a town read on Andante.

It does not engage with Andante's alignment, or even engage with your alignment for making such a post.

It is just... there.

yeah this is utter bullshit

the idea that i have to repeat my townread of andante for the nth time in order to call out bad reasoning is nonsense

because literally less than 10 minutes earlier, i wrote 761 outlining difference between town and scum andante and why i think she's town this game; i had literally just got out of saying "i think andante is town" - and i'm trying to make people doubt town-andante by that one line? k

[Datisi]

and luke has played with me a few times before, i'd expect him to know that i don't just get reads by directly engaging, i also open multiple conversations and sometimes they get picked up and sometimes they don't

so the "not engaging with alignments" comment is icky

[Datisi]

i find it funny that you're picking one line of my posting and yelling how it's "empty engagement" as if i didn't have a bunch of other content in the span of ~10 minutes

[Datisi]

i find it funny that you're picking one line of my posting and yelling how it's "empty engagement" as if i didn't have a bunch of other content in the span of ~10 minutes

[Datisi]

fucking doubleposting

do you think every single thought i put out is directly engaging with people's alignments? do you think i always wanna lay out in advance what i'm looking for?

[Datisi]

of course there are 10 pages the day my schedule is shit, ok let's see how far i can skim in half an hour

@andres, i'll read your full responses later because i am not able to focus right now, but this did catch my eye:

In any case, I’ll try and spend some time thinking through your slot specifically because I’m starting to get concerned that your SR is making it so that multiple players (more than a few of which I think are Town) are not even considering me for their Councils and I’m finding it rather confusing.

i was under the impression that most people fully ignored my read on you? what made you think i'm actually having an impression on like, anyone yet

---

888 is a very good post and i am not biased at all hehehe

shea and junko have definitely been *present*, but nothing about them jumped at me yet

do you have any thoughts about Shea here vs Shea in Pictures? now that Pictures is done I will say that I thought Shea felt a lot more reasonable and less performative to me in this game than in Pictures where I thought they were scum, but hahahah whoops Shea was town in Pictures and I'm wondering if this is possibly another Ari situation where I should be careful about townreading someone I found more transparent/agreeable in one game vs another.

I still don't suspect anything Shea has posted but curious if you have any thoughts at all between the two games, or is that just not worth thinking about yet at this stage

i'mma keep it real with you chief, after i died and learned that he's town, i repressed his play from my memory

i would agree that he seems more... calm and reasonable in this game, but i'm not willing to call that alignment indicative yet vs just different gamestates, especially since we didn't see shea's early game play in pictures

i can make a more detailed comparison tonight if you want, but saying in advance that i don't think i'll get significant results

---

VP Baltar is largely vibes feeling right, but I also like his advocacy for Andres king, who I also think is town. Also felt good to see him point out the same Datisi post that I did.

this feels very much like trying to pocket baltar. baltar's and luke's reactions to that post of mine were not similar at all

also, i find it really dubious that that *one* line from me that luke considers empty engagement would actually shoot me down in the bottomest tier in his reads

(also dwlee uses they/them)

---

also the tinfoily part of my brain is telling me that if you were scum, *someone* in your scumteam would know andante and warn you that she's basically an omgus machine and also that she is just like that as town and so it's not worth the struggle in early game... but tinfoiling

actually I guess Datisi said this exact thing earlier

hmmmmm were you referencing this at all @Luke?

that was explaining why i was townreading dannflor, not why i was townreading andante? like, assuming andante is town, i didn't think it's very likely scum-dann goes for her early game... why is that line relevant to the current conversation?

oh wait, this wasn't discussing the read on me, i'm dumb nvm

---

Alright, I'm starting to see Datisi town more strongly now!

why for that post?

---

What is wrong with YOU? Why do you feel the need to act condescendingly towards everyone who disagrees with you? Town should work together, not try to discourage different opinions.

this is starting to feel like scum playing too heavily into their role that they didn't realize what they're actually saying makes no sense

also i actually got good vibes from a few posts of shea around here so that's cool

---

I think Luke is Town.

why?

---

You contradicted yourself on a townread on someone else by not townreading me

do you genuinely think that this actually makes me scum?

and unowen - i'm p sure baltar did say so in this game already, but you can ask them if you don't believe me

mildly yes

k this is not a real read

---

ok i'm caught up, and by caught up i mean in the last 3 pages, i skipped every post that was longer than 10 words, but uhh

i find it kind of entertaining that i was getting weird looks for voting vpb king and all of a sudden there's new votes for vpb king but such is life (i still support it obv)

tl;dr slightly leaning more scum on rhae and dwlee, more town on shea

i will be around here and there classposting today if anyone urgently needs me

[Datisi]

it's cool i am running late on homework for this game too

why am i in prob town

[Datisi]

it's cool i am running late on homework for this game too

why am i in prob town

honestly it's mainly just a few posts of yours that ping in a weird and strong way that doesn't usually happen when you're town. I called out one earlier with how you engaged with Fire, another was 508 which mastina also pointed out. and I think we should talk a bit more about Andres cause from a birds eye view I didn't like 673 that kinda maybe feels like a time and place where scum needs to undercut town!Andres being universally TR'd and made king or some other high power position, so the agenda is a bit eyebrow raising. but I also probably just don't really fully follow your reasoning, like how do you think town!Andres would post about you if he were genuinely unsure/uncertain of his read?

oh no, i didn't mean the question as "why am i so low", i meant it as "why am i so high" because i'm not recalling a single positive thing you've said about my alignment this game (i'm not counting disliking luke's reasons for scum-me)

i will be talking more about andres soon since i do owe him a few responses... but it's difficult to put the andres read into words that make sense to others as they make sense to myself. but one vibe that i felt is that he seems to not really townread me but also expect to townread me? like the "i want you to get into a shitfight" seems tmi as if he expects that i will town it up at some point

[Datisi]

Dats, if you don't get king, is there another council role you feel like you definitely want?

i haven't processed all the roles yet, i want them all to be public knowledge so that i can compare them at the same time.

from what i know of them, i think i don't want the person who picks the guards because that seems like too much stress

i don't currently remember what the others are and i cannot focus enough to check atm

[Datisi]

It was the following interaction that I had with you that actually moved you to the bottom tier.

what do you find scummy about it, lukewarm?

[Datisi]

Datisi, can you bullet point your town read on me again? Am I your strongest townread?

- reactios to mech aren't over the top
- you don't seem scared to interact with me properly and have a stance on me that makes sense; this was heavily lacking in the large normal
- nothing yet that pinged me as alarming and wrong

the only * is that you are aware of the large normal and might be purposefully playing around it - but i don't think this is very likely as i am not feeling alarmed at anything

strongest townread? idk. i think close to the top definitely. i don't have a list in mind yet sorry, i've skipped over a few pages

[Datisi]

ok actually i'm gonna crash in bed, proper reading tomorrow

i will be around for some ~20 minutes as i get ready to sleep, so if anyone has any quick q's, lemme know

[Datisi]

firebringer is en route to become my strongest townread, and only partly because i wanna annoy him

(srsly tho 1244 is Good and i deadass assumed we'll be getting a fresh 150 cap for some reason?)

anyway i see nobody wants to chat with me that's cool that's fine i'm totally not gonna go cry

[Datisi]

Luke
Guiltilion
Baltar

scum
town???
town

i feel like luke and baltar are the two reads i have spoken a lot about so idk why you're asking me about them but

[Datisi]

so i brought my laptop with me to uni so that i can play mafia during class breaks

responses that i owe to andres: 866 - i actually was reading your other content, i said i liked you and thought you were townie in your early exchange with ladylambdadelta. and i'm not saying you, as scum in that one game, were hesitating on me in a strategic way. that's a big thing, i don't think it was strategic, i think scum-you struggles to convincingly show that you're reading my alignment as you usually do so you go to the softer, toned down reads. could it be strategically better for scum-you to try to pocket me? maybe, i don't know, i don't think scum always plays perfectly strategically so i don't think that's an argument worth making.

868 - i don't mind drawing parallels to other games, hell i do it all the time obviously. but it ties to what i've written above, it read as a hesitation to make a read of my alignment, and you instead of resorting to making reads *around* my alignment.

870 - do you think the content you've produced by now (or by this post ig) is out of your scumrange? and that i should know that?

---

mastina is probably town? i'm finally reading her posts around page 42. i have no clue why she's reading half the people the way she is reading them, but that seems on par for the course. i'd ask (in layman terms!!!) for explanations of the dannflor, dwlee, enchant reads, but like idk if there's a point lol

---

oh no i think 1065 is townie.

also there's this one neuron in my brain that's saying that guiltylion saw he was losing support for king, saw this read of andres, and decided to pivot to a townread of me for ~mysterious~ reasons that were only explained later; and that that's why he answered my question about his read on me in a "why am i so low" way, like he suddenly forgot he0s been saying nothing but negative things about me and has to pretend to townread me (i told the neuron to shut up for the time being)

---

in a vacuum, i don't really like junko's pivots and "shading" @andante, but i actually think it's kind of townie? or like, it doesn't make sense from a scum perspective. because i think by this point it has been said so many times how town-andante has weird read changes and how she's prone to omgus and how she has such weird posts and how that is Town... and scum-junko decides to attack her over it? like, what is scum-junko expecting to achieve here?

---

having very recently experienced a scum-baltar game, i am REALLY struggling to imagine him being scum this game (especially as in the signups thread he said he was gonna lurk this game, and i think scum-him would try to use that as an excuse or cover to post less... reads and takes and questioning, but he isn't, so)

---

i gotta stop here, i did not get very far but i am planning to have a proper readslist tonight, hopefully

[Datisi]

You and Luke are on two sides of the same coin, doing 2 different things with your concern and understanding of me but at least in my mind Luke is nailed down with a reasoning that checked out from our prior experience from my PoV. You are just waving in a general area and not attempting to read me at all, only by proxy of discrediting Luke have you given any alignment on me.

did you read my thoughts on why his read on you is off? do you think that town-luke should be townreading you for that stuff? (this one i'm assuming is a yes since you think he's town, but my main q then is why?)

1161 is making me think i really need to remove that one neuron from before, this is another example of guiltylion elaborating on his reads in a like... lucid and logical way that i really like? i'll take a look at that one scumgame of his tonight ig but yeah

ok my friend is here and i have class starting in 10, later

[Datisi]

I read through Datisi’s ISO and I started thinking to myself that they were Town. But you know, I started having doubts again after they implied that they shouldn’t be able to read me correctly, which I think is nonsense. They’ve played a full length game with me as Scum until Endgame, and multiple games with me as Town, and they quoted the one time I’ve played Scum on this forum in order to create a contrast of sorts with how I’m playing here (and questioning the strength of VPBs read), but they can’t make up their mind about me? That’s bullshit, and I’m not buying it.

okay i hate this

i was not implying that i shouldn't be able to read you correctly. i frequently ask people takes on their own slots, and takes on my reads of their slots. you made a claim that i should be townreading you here, and i am questioning it

next, my read on you was never actually that good. like, at some point it was a running joke that i scumread town-you, and i decently fucked the read on scum-you in that scumgame too. so why are you suddenly making it as if i'm supposed to be an expert at reading you?

and finally, the "they can't make up their mind on me" - buddy i was v/la for two days? i barely read any of your posts that weren't directly aimed at me??

---

anyway, i am finally home, i have a cup of coffee, i am reading up properly now

i will also be around tho if anyone wants to real-time (baltar, i saw your ktane request, i'll get to it later)

[Datisi]

i see lukewarm is busy having a shitfight with guiltylion, but i would appreciate if my 1136 got a response

---

If GL is town who thinks I am scum, he is telling me what not to do to get scum read by him, which is pretty ??

this gives me a vibe of purposefully misunderstanding/misrepping gl's post to paint him scummy. because like, i think it's pretty clear that gl's implicit message wasn't "don't do this to get scumread by me", it's "if you do this, and you're town, i'm expecting that i will be able to read your posts correctly" and it feels like mudslinging

---

i read 1210 and i don't remember a single alignemnt-sorting thing from it so that is Not Good

---

i think unowen is likely townie for the arguments about baltar being not townie, up to 1259. because like, i don't think scum!unowen actually expects that he'll convince gl otherwise by saying "ok but ASIDE the meta". but i also don't get the feeling of this being scum who's annoyed that a townie is correctly reading another townie. it just feels like... he believes in what he's saying and arguing about it.

---

do you have any updated thoughts on GL, Datisi

definitely has gotten more townie since i last gave a read there. i can quote specific posts and write more if needed, but the tl;dr is that i am seeing solving that i largely vibe with, and the way he's explaining reads also seems like Goodposting. i'm still waiting for the andante stuff though, which is like my one hangup rn, but idk if it's worth much

oh, i just realized that council gets a hood pt, right? i want both of us in that pt actually i think that would be a very fun experience

[Datisi]

I generally agree with GL's thoughts on council. Interesting Datisi wasn't on there.

{Andres, VPB,

Datisi

, LLD, Mastina, Firebringer, TSQ}

sir???

---

definitely has gotten more townie since i last gave a read there. i can quote specific posts and write more if needed, but the tl;dr is that i am seeing solving that i largely vibe with, and the way he's explaining reads also seems like Goodposting. i'm still waiting for the andante stuff though, which is like my one hangup rn, but idk if it's worth much

oh, i just realized that council gets a hood pt, right? i want both of us in that pt actually i think that would be a very fun experience

I mean you didn't really have issue with my adante stuff? I'm not sure why that's a hang up for you

I still kinda think its Reasonable to scum read Adante, although I'm not feeling that as strongly anymore.

I guess I would like some more specific posts as examples because I was feeling the opposite that he had kinda been dropping off more. i recognize that could be me confbiasing though

do you have thoughts on 1436, am I tin foiling too much

i didn't have issue with your andante stuff because you have never played with andante before this, right? and i know how andante comes off when you first meet her. so i think your suspicion was understandable.

guiltylion, on the other hand, has not only played with andante before, but was actively making a claim that her play here is in some ways similar to her play in HDP (where she was scum). this is an issue because i felt her play here was

widely

different than her play there.

posts like 888, 1161, 1193, and the thoughts on vpb in 1200 and 1235 are what gives me the feeling of just like... qualityposting? brain is escaping me rn so i'll see how dire the situation is when i catch up on whether i ~need~ to convince you on this immediately or not

as for 1436... ehhh i can kinda sorta see your pov here. but also not really. from my idea of gl's scumplay, i think he would like to be king. so i think, if scum-him saw that he's a plausible wagon, he'd be MORE likely to advocate for himself to be king, not less. and i can relate with the idea of not feeling like advocating for yourself to be king? like, it kind of feels like a waste of posts, especially if you're actually focused on sorting other people, and i think town knows compromise is going to be important in this setup and that going "me me me" is not gonna help with that.

[Datisi]

@Datisi, yeah I think I’m solidly out of my Scum range to be honest, and I do think you might be able to have a sense for it.

is it just me, or is this completely incongruent with the way andres spoke about my ability to read him in 1423?

[Datisi]

Datisi and GuiltyLion, would you mind giving me your take on Luke's play this game versus his play in KTANE, and what you see as similar or different as far as motivations? Thanks!

i just went to mostly reread his iso in ktane, and uh i am really not sure what you are actually asking me here. i feel like he's had noticeably more fluffposts and mechposts in ktane than in here. i also feel like he was much less aggressive in that game? like, he had a few scumreads, but it seemed to be much more lowkey, actually most of the alignment comments seem more lowkey. oh, i feel like he had more townreads (outside of readslists), but they were less explained. if i had to assign motivation to this, i'd say ktane-luke was more interested in finding townreads, while this luke is more interested in like, asserting his opinions and getting people to like them

why do you ask about ktane specifically - is there anything you see?

[Datisi]

Datisi and GuiltyLion, would you mind giving me your take on Luke's play this game versus his play in KTANE, and what you see as similar or different as far as motivations? Thanks!

i just went to mostly reread his iso in ktane, and uh i am really not sure what you are actually asking me here. i feel like he's had noticeably more fluffposts and mechposts in ktane than in here. i also feel like he was much less aggressive in that game? like, he had a few scumreads, but it seemed to be much more lowkey, actually most of the alignment comments seem more lowkey. oh, i feel like he had more townreads (outside of readslists), but they were less explained. if i had to assign motivation to this, i'd say ktane-luke was more interested in finding townreads, while this luke is more interested in like, asserting his opinions and getting people to like them

why do you ask about ktane specifically - is there anything you see?

[Datisi]

"maybe this time i won't doublepost when i click submit with the mouse" said datisi right before doubleposting after clicking submit with the mouse

I am not sure on datisi but I think Titus is town.

why did i go from town to not sure, and why is titus town?

[mechposting] also i think it's actually REALLY important that the cop role is town. because, yeah ok we can force scum into giving results. cool beans. but once that scum dies, you know what that means? that literally all of those cop results are meaningless! whereas if a townie gives them out and then dies, we have Actual Cop Results. [/mechposting]

Junkochan [7]: Firebringer, ProfessorDrapion, Junkochan, Rhaenyra, Enchant, PenguinPower, Unowen

this wagon absolutely creeps me out. i don't trust half of this wagon, and the fact that it sprung up because ??? is worrying. i'll take a short break because i have a headache, but i wanna cross-check junko and baltar's reads and see if there's anything glaring they disagree on.

[Datisi]

I asked you and GL because you had more impartial/uninformed viewpoints on that game than I did.

i. had an uninformed viewpoint. on ktane. i.

uninformed

. mhm.

that's fine, but i just, idk i don't see that many similarities between the plays in these games? and i really don't think i'm gonna sit down and read d1 of ktane again

[Datisi]

@Datisi if you haven’t read my posts carefully, then I suggest you do because this annoyance you seem to be expressing doesn’t make sense to me. I don’t know why you’re surprised that I expect you to read me properly in a game I’ve contributed as much as I have, given our long history. Just because you’ve made mistakes around my slot a few times doesn’t mean you have no idea how to read me (and I personally think you’re generally able to do so - even when you were constantly hunting for me Scum, you didn’t really doubt me up until the game when I actually was Scum, and you were hedging more about my alignment then). And in any event, if you’re saying that you usually Scum read me when I’m Town in the early part of games, then aren’t I just Town here?

i have not yet read all your posts carefully, no, but i don't see why that is relevant to what we're discussing right now. i called out specifically what my problems were with you in 1449. what is there in that post to "not understand"?

doesn't mean i have no idea how to read you, no. but does it mean that i shouldn't be doubting you at all here?? like you're not a horrible scum player

"if you’re saying that you usually Scum read me when I’m Town in the early part of games, then aren’t I just Town here?" HOW IS THIS RELEVANT TO LITERALLY ANYTHING??? like i am trying to discuss your thoughts on me with you because so mane of them make no fucking sense to me and why are you turning this into a shitty gotcha??? like if i ask "i have a tendency to scumread you as town, why are you expecting me to read you correctly here right away" what am i supposed to take away from "ahaha wouldn't that make me town here then?"

[Datisi]

like this is my issue here

i am feeling like i am saying what my problems with your slot/play are

and you are responding to something that's only tangentially related but doesn't actually answer my question, and in the process tries to frame me as the confused/bad one

and it's like, how are you not just scum here trying to sink my slot? like are you doing it on purpose? are you TRYING to piss me off?

[Datisi]

the problem was never that "you're not finding me town and i'm town, therefore you're scum" and i don't think you *need* to answer everything but you claimed you're confused and i feel like i clearly said what my problems were and

i think i'm gonna drop this for the time being because i don't think we're getting anywhere productive and i don't think anyone else is frankly going to care about this

pedit: okay i'm gonna invoke the appeal to strategy now - this is clearly working very well, yes? the best strategic way of keeping you in the poe, or convincing everyone else to keep you in the poe, is by attacking these very specific points about your read on me and our history and yadda yadda that maybe one person in this game actually has enough experience with both of us to even seriously consider, and that person has already said that he doesn't find these very convincing at all; like do you really think that's something that makes any sense?

[Datisi]

ok i kind of skimmed. kinda think mastina is town and that she absolutely shouldn't be able to touch the council with a 10 foot pole. still prefer baltar for king, but i am very much not against shea being king, so.

[Datisi]

i think drapion's approach to the game is kinda townie but i think he also should not be within the 10 foot radius of the council

[Datisi]

i think drapion's approach to the game is kinda townie but i think he also should not be within the 10 foot radius of the council

hit me with your abbreviated scum list again: luke, andres, ??, ??, ??

luke, dwlee, less certain on charloux and bellaphant

and then a fun meme choice in andres/enchant/penguin

(i am not actually as certain on andres since it feels like everyone thinks i'm wrong so i'm gonna not try to kill him for the time being and hope that i get enlightened later)

[Datisi]

well i just walked out of a game where scum was getting rolled hard and had no influence, sooo...

i mean i would not be surprised if i'm wrong. i'm basically expecting to be wrong on some of those. but i don't think i *can* catch the scum outside of that while it's day 1 and nothing has happened yet. so.

if you have a scumcase on someone who's loud and influential and widely townread, i am listening; but i don't

pedit: @baltar

[Datisi]

if you have a scumcase on someone who's loud and influential and widely townread, i am listening; but i don't

I think I'm back to feeling dann is scum. I don't have some massive case, but the way he disappeared when the king talk became more dynamic and chaotic screams scum unsure of what to do.

I'm also not sure if mastina is delusional town or refuge in audacity scum.

Enchant is probably scum here, so I agree on that. Less sure on the rest, but I am constantly worrying there is a scum in (andres, datisi, GL) and I'm the targeting of pocketing.

mmm. i did notice dannflor kind of fell off in posting, but i'm not sure if it's like, scum-indicative i guess? mostly because i feel like both you and shea are town, and i also had a townlean on junko, so it doesn't really seem like a situation where scum would get frozen, if that makes sense? though that's assuming i'm right on all three of you, and maybe that shouldn't be a given... and i did like a lot of his recent thoughts, more notably the paranoia on gl and the poking towards me about andante/gl he did, it didn't feel opportunistic in any direction

mastina i'm betting on delusional town at the moment. it's like... i guess i don't *know* how capable of scum she is currently, but i remember a few people having an easy read on her and saying she's not that present/aggressive as scum, and she herself saying she's not capable of playing scum that well recently? but this is something i should probably check myself and it is not a priority at the moment

you know my thoughts on that group of 3, lol. i guess let me know if there's anything i can do to ~ease your paranoia~ <3

[Datisi]

If anyone has any suggestions for me for king whether they be mech thoughts, speculations, people you think should have roles and people who you think shouldn't, now would be the time to throw them out into the world.

people that shouldn't have roles: everyone mentioned in 1610, + drapion and mastina

people that should: me, baltar, guilty, firebringer
then i guess junko, dannflor, unowen?

mmm this doesn't feel that great. there are a couple of people that i'm struggling to form a read on that could maybe be useful, like lld. anyway, the first 4 are my first choices.

as for the mech thoughts, i think it's important that prince, hand of the king, commander of kingsguard, and master of coin be town. the other three don't seem *that* powerful and it'd be less bad if we lost them to scum malpractice? actually, if a role costs money, and scum gets some sorta bonus for it, does it cost them money to use that bonus?

"You may not select members of the Small Council or the King to be members of the Kingsguard." - this line for choosing the kingsguard kind of worries me. lowkey wondering if it'd be better to put less townie people in some council positions (especially the last three that cost money, maybe not use them at all) to save the more townie people for the kingsguard?

[Datisi]

if i was able to pick, i would absolutely give myself the hand of the king, the other three important roles require too much brain and i'm very good at being the cop, as we've seen in the recently finished thing game

VOTE: thestatusquo

K-1

[Datisi]

VOTE: dwlee

[Datisi]

dwlee provide a genuine reason why i'm scum that isn't some bullshit contradiction from page 2 challenge (300% impossible)

[Datisi]

dwlee is scum

they're usually not shit at reading me, i'm p sure they've claimed so multiple times, and the few times they did scumread me when i was town, the thoughts they had on me actually MADE SENSE and they were re-evaluating me as the game went on

none of this is genuine

[Datisi]

yes

they weren't 10 minutes ago, but this is actively horrible in a way i highly doubt comes from town-them

[Datisi]

you blatantly weren't trying to read for my alignment on like page 5 homie

okay and? i didn't give you townpoints for something that i gave townpoints to baltar. in what fucking world does that make me scum, in what fucking world does that outweigh literally EVERYTHING ELSE i've done this game?

and HOW does that ONE POST make you think that i am not sorting you???

[Datisi]

There's 2 posts of difference between townreading VP for something and not townreading me for the same thing,

which is indicative of an agenda to push me

, which you've just barrelled on doing without engaging with the point I made

it's an enormous fucking stretch to say that me not giving you a weak townread (because guess what, the townread on baltar for that was super weak) is AGENDA TO PUSH YOU

but there is a very simple answer to why i said why i said that you just so happened to not think of - i was trolling you. i simply did not want to say that i thought you were townie for it because i thought it would be funny. the fact that you actually started voting me over it and turned it into "datisi isn't trying to sort me and actually has this agenda to push me that he's been planning on from page 5" is ???

because like, i feel like you as town would've realized that i'm being cheeky, or at least would've tried to question me about it, instead of latching onto it to attack

[Datisi]

viewtopic.php?t=88383

btw this is how town-dwlee suspecting town-me looks like. they actually had thoughts on other slots, and they kept re-evaluating me and eventually came to the right conclusion

pedit: buddy, you dropped in here one page ago saying how i'm scum for not sorting you on page 5, yes i do think it constitutes as an attack at this point

[Datisi]

okay so, in our king supporter pt, i offered shea that i would towncase him baltar guilty and dann, and i finally did - i'm posting it in the main thread tho since i think there's value in everyone else seeing it too

---

why baltar is town:

i'm gonna compare a lot of this to pictures since it's the most recent and fresh in my memory. the first thing that jumps out is that baltar was really really cagey about giving a read on me that game, which is something that i ended up calling him out for down the line. like at first there, he did call me out for some bullshit early game that was like. really not well supported and kind of didn't make sense, it went on for much longer than it should've had, and ultimately there was no actual conclusion on my alignment

Spoiler:

ari can maybe be town if she saw something that i also saw. ok no point in being vague when i didn't out too many reads, if she noticed that baltar not voting me is weird, then yeah +town

Red flag.

You think I'm obligated to vote you as my rvs?

i feel like the other reasons so far to suspect datisi feel a bit... better than this

why is this a red flag? datisi feeling entitled to an rvs vote?

I guess I kind of did answer this actually. I think datisi is kind of making up reasons after the fact around his ari play, and part of that is this assumption that I MUST rvs vote dats because I do frequently.

Datisi is well aware that I don't play the opening of games the same all the time. I take different approaches based on my mood and what I think will be interesting. It's just a contrived thought process to me.

you had a card you can play and didn't

halfway through writing that post, i realized that ari has enough experience with both of us in the same game, she would've been able to fabricate the reasoning. but my gut still said it's slightly townie and i wanted to put it out there.

This. Reaction testing probably is the most accurate verbiage, but you are saying you planned to town points ari if she saw what you saw in me, but then didn't actually wait to see it, but then town pointed anyway for something you abandoned because you assumed ari would have picked up on it anyway.

It just feels like contrived reasoning to justify your post after HEM pushed on you.

Am I misunderstanding something here?

I think datisi is kind of making up reasons after the fact around his ari play,

specifically I want to ask about this

do you think 308 is fake? that post felt the most likely to be genuine to me. I don't know if I could buy that scum!Tisi invented this sequence of events on the fly, he was rapidposting around then

I guess our difference is that I think datisi is very good at faking interactions. I'm not certain if that post is real or not, and I get why you'd consider it so, but I also think datisi cares a lot about winning as scum, even if he probs hates playing that alignment given his current RNG luck

whereas here, he had an actual take on my alignment pretty early on, and he kept changing it as more information came out

Spoiler:

If you want to talk though, whyd you town ping me?

you usually rvs vote to yeet me

you also rvs voted me here

but we're not voting to yeet, we're voting for kinging

does baltar not know what we are voting for?

so he probably doesn't have access to a scum pt where they probably talked about it

I actually thought this was your reasoning, so that's probably good.

Fwiw, yes I had not read the rules. I might be chill with you king if I can get to feeling good about you D1 (which is a challenge probably because I'll get paranoid soon)

So, feeling less like my original thought was actually valid.

I actually don't think your point about IC is terrible. Wouldn't being king put you in Elo potentially too?

lukewarm and baltar are overlooking the key difference between guardians and this game - an ic is always going to be a townie, the question is just whether it's gonna be me or another townie. here, king isn't guaranteed to be town. i know i'm town.

---

In post 200, VP Baltar wrote:
VOTE: dwlee

why dwlee? i was starting to feel they're kinda scummy

On the IC part, idk, feels like you're splitting hairs. King is going to be a lot of responsibility I assume, and the feeling seems like it would be similar since, as you confirm, you know you're town.

Are you advocating for yourself to be king now seriously?

On dwlee, voted there because I felt like it. I don't have a scummy vibe there at this point, and I think it's pretty unlikely I follow Mastina's proposal.

I'd probably townbin andante and andres at this point. Dann and

datisi are maybe in town lean territory for me

. Dwlee I could see as town who hasn't had a real chance to engage yet.

can i get a why on the bolded?

actually was just thinking maybe you're pocketing me now, so hold that thought.

I liked your that your intuition on me not reading the mech matched up with where i thought you were heading, and I think your defusal of dann-andante is +town, because if I was scum, I'd absolutely be pushing that to be a shitshow of misunderstanding.

Datisi reading me correctly early though does give me tinfoil and I don't think think I'd want you as king at this time.

and I think we should talk a bit more about Andres cause from a birds eye view I didn't like 673 that kinda maybe feels like a time and place where scum needs to undercut town!Andres being universally TR'd and made king or some other high power position, so the agenda is a bit eyebrow raising.

I think the thing for me, and this answers your earlier question to me Datisi, is that that read seems very particular to the point of being something only Datisi can interpret. Andres should be having a solid Datisi read sooner is kind of like...OK? Maybe he just hasn't gotten a vibe on Datisi yet. I didn't find it super compelling as a case or even a reason to doubt andres right now. Maybe I'm just dumb. Like I said, Datisi had a better read of andres in that scum game of andres', but the read just seems to be making a lot of assumptions around 100% play consistency (which datisi does sometimes).

Overall, I think they're both probably town, but my confidence is lower in Datisi.

Dats, if you don't get king, is there another council role you feel like you definitely want?

and it's like... you can search his iso in pictures, nothing he said about me came anywhere close to being nuanced. i think he knows that i often read people by their read of me and didn't wanna fuck up in pictures. and here it's like, he's not afraid of openly saying how he's reading me, and all of his takes are like, more nuanced and make more sense than whatever he said about me in pictures. i do think he'd try to give a read on me as scum here too, but i doubt he'd be jumping from one to another read all while actually providing reasoning.

Ok, so here is where my head is at:

King: andres
Prince of Dragonstone: GuiltyLion (maybe?)
Hand of the King: (IDK, should this be a scummy person we force to give a result?)
Lord Commander of the Kingsguard: VP Baltar (LLD, I will put you on the kingsguard with me so we can find the traitors)
Master of Coin: Dannflor
King's Justice: TSQ

What other roles do we need to assign? Are we taking risks with the kingsguard appointments by not putting any scummy people on the small council?

posts like these are town-indicative for baltar i think. it's like... the idea of him looking at the game holistically and posting based on that. i think this is something that is severly lacking in his scumgame - he does ask a lot of questions, but it's just, it doesn't feel like it GOES anywhere at any point. it's what i called him out for in pictures, it didn't feel like he was actually doing anything in his mind with the info.

another examples are 1198 (probably a much better example than the one i quoted lol) and 1626.

also i think overall he's trying to push the town into a pro-town direction. stuff like... pushing for andres king early (slim chance they're s/s, but if baltar-s and andres-t, this is almost a death sentence for baltar). 574 doesn't benefit scum-him to post, same with 677. and i think asking to get the game moving in 1618 is townie because i think, regardless of your actual alignment, scum-him would be happy to encourage or just let us burn through our posts. a lot of his play... does feel bossy, but it feels townie.

another thing i notice is that a lot of his questions in pictures are one dimensional. what i mean is, it's "why you think x" or "how are you reading y". whereas here there's more open-ended questions, stuff like 828, 1198, 1443. like i don't think he tries to help bella get engaged with the game (unless they're buddies i guess...) but he did that with others too, like lld. and it's just, i usually get the vibe of him posting for posting's sake if he's doing that, but i don't get that vibe this game at all.

---

why guiltylion is town:

i don't think he'd be interacting with me this way if he were scum. like, the only scumgame of his i was in, he townread me early for lol reasons and then killed me night one. now i do think something like this was mentioned in pictures, so i don't think he'd be doing the exact same thing necessarily... but i think that the fact he went from continuously shading me to putting me into his townreads is way too sloppy if he's scum. i think scum-him would pay attention to how he's reading me and attempt to hold a consistent view here, and i especially think he wouldn't just randomly start townreading me because there's the worry it would make me think he's pocketing me

i really liked his thoughts on lukewarm being scum. like yes i know i am probably biased here, but 888 feels like a real thought process. that's the vibe i get with the entirety of his argument with lukewarm. it's just... complex thought after complex thought. and like, i don't think it's scum pushing because there's these small olive branches (1460, whichever that post where he told him to keep casing him if he's town, my eyes are glazing over i can't find it). i'm not sure if he bothers to offer these as scum, because it can later be used against him when he eventually shuts them down.

and i know i usually paranoia guilty distancing with his partners early, but like... this went far beyond, to the point where a lot of content (and most of lukewarm's actually) was about each other. i really don't think this is like, beneficial to the scumteam at all. so i don't think they're s/s.

i also really liked his thoughts on baltar in 1235 and 1279. and it's just... most of his thoughts just vibe and make sense to me. that used to be my main way of finding town-guilty, it's i can read his posts and feel like i truly understand what i'm reading.

this one is a read that i will be getting more confident as the game goes on (or i will get ~mysteriously~ killed before i can change my mind lole) which is why i'm not really worried about it yet.

---

why dannflor is town:

unfortunately this read does not have a meta basis

i still think the early push on andante is townie. stuff like 204 and 208. i think scum, when faced with a weird townie like andante, are more likely to frame their posting in a... showy way? like they're more likely to try to talk *at* them, to try to present why they're the ones that are right - and i don't get that vibe from dann's push on andante.

i really like the way he's interacting with me. i think like... if he's scum, and his goal was to pocket me, i don't think he'd be repeatedly returning to asking me my thoughts on so many different things, without like, hard committing to my alignment or giving elaborate thoughts on it. this is not a pocketing approach i remember seeing. if his goal is instead trying to angle for a scumread on me, he would've found SOMETHING to scumread me on. and i feel like i would've sensed malice from his questions. i didn't.

i think his 1436 is really townie. i don't think guiltylion is like, a very viable push and i don't see a reason why it would benefit scum to push on him specifically. and the content of that post is like... like i think it's completely wrong, but it feels townie-tinfoily wrong. it's stuff i didn't even notice, and i don't think it's stuff that scum-dann thinks anyone is gonna find convincing - but it feels like he genuinely thought he saw something there.

---

why thestatusquo is town:

i liked 502. lld was lowkey locktowning shea at that point, and i don't think that was a very popular stance at the time, so i'm not sure why he does something like this if he's scum. and i feel like scum who scumreads someone for stuff like that would be more prone to fake it in a more negative light than shea's done here.

the interaction with rhae around post 982 just gave me this strong feeling of honesty. it just feels how town reacts when they're being pushed for nonsense. kind of similar to my thoughts on dannflor, i feel like he'd be inclined to frame this in a way that makes rhae scum, or in a way that makes himself town, but instead he just... doesn't?

i liked his thoughts in 1413 and 1490. i don't think these are like, impossible to fake or anything, but they don't seem overly negative in a way that i'd expect them to be from scum that's bullshitting, they seem genuinely curious and looking for an answer.

shea did ask me what differences i'm seeing between his play here and his play in pictures, and it's just like. he seems much more laid back here. in a way that's like, i don't get the feeling he's trying to *force through* his ideas like he did there, and i don't get the vibe of purposefully picking at insignificant things like i did there. this part is included bc shea said he thinks he's playing the same in the two games, and i definitely don't get that idea.

i still think he's townie this game, it's mostly gut and this is probably the best i can explain it currently, it's past 1am and i've been staring at my laptop screen for so long, i can't

[Datisi]

i don't think i understand the question, unwnd

[Datisi]

When players are able to trick themselves into making thoughts

They are less dependable to read based on them

I just felt like your early posts seemed more like the process instead of..genuine?

i'm sorry, it's like 2am here but i don't think i'd be able to understand this if it were middle of the day - i don't get why/how you suspect me for it and thus have no idea how to show to you that i'm town

[Datisi]

i was not considering it to be one

you can, if you want. i have to bounce pretty soon, and unless you think i'm scummy enough that you wanna try to kill me, i'm not sure if this should be a priority for either of us

but like ye sure shoot

[Datisi]

i haven't seen anything yet that makes me want to unvote dwlee. the readslist they did in 1849 is like, extremely dry and i don't see most of the thought process behind it. i'm trying to look at this objectively, but like... if town-dwlee were really convinced i was scum, i feel like they'd be trying to convince anyone to vote me. this almost feels like antispew bc they feel they're gonna die and don't wanna completely spew me town in the process.

can the people in the other pt let us know if there's any movement from dwlee there? because what firebringer told us about their solving in there is not very... good, i guess.

i'm starting to lock onto a luke/dwlee team. while dwlee was first getting run up, luke did this weird "well i think dwlee is really scummy but like datisi and gl voted there so i'm not voting there lole" which at the time pinged me as scum not wanting to be caught not supporting the dwlee wagon, but also not wanting to actually flame it further. and 1820 feels like, scum-luke tmi-ing something that scum-dwlee did, scum-dwlee trying to damage control.

i still don't understand unwnd's points against me. yell at me if i'm just being stupid, but i feel like intent for my posts is plainly obvious. i don't understand what is "lacking a justification" supposed to mean.

also, unwnd, why are you coming out with these complains about my play if you're not willing to try to kill me right now?

[Datisi]

i think the disonance between writing a case and then not voting it is scummy, yes. especially considering your justification for not doing so is disliking me and guiltylion, i think we're both town and i think your cases on both of us were horrible. quietly bussing a deadweight partner, while a common strategy, is level zero play at this point, and not all scum is going to play that way.

i don't think it's safe for you to try to push anywhere right now, you'd be sinking your slot even further.

and the fact that the wagon is at 9 votes right now is irrelevant - the wagon was at 6 votes at the time you posted that in the pt.

But flip side of all of that, is that prior to their sudden wagon, I was ALSO Dwlee's biggest scum read. Yet once they suddenly had a wagon, they went into *attack my voters* mode instead of *case the person that they had previously presented as their biggest scum read as the person who actually should be eliminated this day phase* mode.

i don't think this part of the post actually makes any sense. i just ctrl+f'ed "luke" and "dat" in dwlee's iso, and i have no clue how you're concluding here that you were dwlee's biggest scumread rather than i was. or how you're concluding that there was a difference in strength in their two reads at all. especially when they explicitly said that their read on you wasn't that strong in 1457.

so the fact that you're making such claims feels like... you are guessing what dwlee *should* be thinking, and claiming they're going against that, and i don't see evidence for what made you think that. so the next conclusion i can draw is that you're making it up. i know scum has a tendency to view everything their buddies do as scummy, since they know they're scum. and i think that's what happened here - you saw dwlee attacking me instead of you and made this argument that doesn't actually *make sense* from town-luke pov.

because like, i wasn't exactly surprised dwlee went after me, my issue was much more in the way they went about it. and framing it as "dwlee attacking their voters" rather than "dwlee attacking their scumreads" because the main person they are attacking and advocating to yeet is me - who was also one of their two scumreads. and the fact that you're overlooking this in favour of portraying their play in an uncharitable way feels really icky

and 1820 kinda feels like damage control from dwlee because that post kind of reads like "dude what the fuck i never said you were my top scumread, what are you doing???" like, idk i feel like town-dwlee would've been at least somewhat curious in what you are actually thinking here and why you made that assumption. they didn't try to interact with you at all

It is really hard to look at this post from you, and not think it started from a point of wanting to call me scum vs seeing something that makes you actually think I am scum. Whether that be a scum agenda, or because you are conf. biasing on me at this point I am less sure, because I actually started thinking of you as town in our PT.

what are your current thoughts on mine and dwlee's alignment then? is there anyone else you want to push right now?

[Datisi]

How do you expect me to go about doing this beyond just explaining why I think you're scum

i dunno. trying harder to actually explain why i'm scum and why i need to be voted. explaining why i'm scum pushing you. it all feels very surface level.

and i'd expect there to be actual reasoning for why you read people the way you read them. the only one i can remember actually reading justification for is dann. and even that one if not great.

Can you tell me what you thought of my own defense of Dwlee in #1856?

assuming this is @ me - i don't get it and i don't find it convincing. i feel like they are trying to dodge suspicion and i don't see how that is a townie trait to have here. i don't understand what you consider to be "real" thoughts from them, as the read on me seems like an asspull to me and the other stuff isn't even explained.

also i have no clue where you're getting the idea that i'm claiming they should be more "emotionally invested".

[Datisi]

Can you paraphrase why you believe they are dodging suspicion? Notable interaction between you two (on read) started around #1711, and I don't see exactly what's dodgy about their approach. Is it you using more characters to make your argument while they just respond in an almost reductive matter by being matter-of-fact? Yeah that's what I think bodes townie for Dwlee?

Re: you claiming emotional investment, your example of another towngame of theirs made me go look at some other games and I felt like the discrepancy you were pointing out was bare minimum. I found that they were more emotional in the games they were scum

yes, i think them trying to matter-of-factly shut my arguments down

while not actually trying to solve anywhere else

is indicative of them attempting to dodge suspicion. i understand i can be annoying and i probably also would've found it suspicious if they used up all their time just to argue back and forth with me and not do anything else. but the fact they're not really doing anything else makes me think they're hoping someone goes "why would scum play like this tho" and that town eventually gets distracted by something else.

why is that townie?

okay but i never talked about their emotional investment and never tried to read them on it. i think they have actual thoughts when they're town and they actually have a thought process for reading me. and this ain't it.

[Datisi]

re 1949 - i actually searched "mm" throughout my iso for this and i don't get it. i have said "hmm" and its equivalents a few times this game, but they have always been in the middle of posts, not at the end. it's hardly stalling between posts when i continued the thoughts in the same post. if there's a better example, and if you have actually done meta research and i didn't do this in prior towngames, then i can sort of see where you're coming from, but this seems like nonsense currently.

If people don't wanna consider this though I'm down to just kill Drapion or Enchant you almost always flip a scum there

agree on enchant, but why drapion?

[Datisi]

Not that I want the day to drag

mhm.

Can you please like

Put more to your statements

I don't need a paragraph, but I need to be able to see that your reads aren't just being made up on the spot

I think that Datisi is lying about making a joke early game because he didn't explain that it was supposed to be a joke until it was brought up again and not when I immediately scumread him for it.

Ex. 1703 which makes me feel like he just made up it being a joke after the fact because here would be another place to point it out before acting like I totally should have understood it was a joke in 1712

I also think Datisi is pushing me with an agenda because there are people with less content he could be pushing but is laser focused on me instead

Do you want to hear about anyone else?

1703 was a hypothetical, but go off i guess.

i am not pushing you for "less content". i think you've posted plenty content by now, there's just no reads to any of this, and the ones that you do have (i.e. me) are garbage. why are you framing this as if town-me always pushes whoever has the least amount of content? that's not how i play.

if anyone needs an additional reason why dwlee is scummy for this - i think it was plainly obvious i was trolling them when i didn't give them townpoints for the exact same thing i gave townpoints to someone else. but, even if you don't realize that. the natural thought process for a townie is to ask what the difference is. not to blanket scumread me for it, and then stick with that scumread for the entirety of the rest of the game.

also i don't really get the assertion that datisi should be pushing people with less content than you

bless.

VOTE: GuiltyLion

Shooting my shot

okay so uh i have enormous problems with this.

reminder, i am with luke in 2 pt's. in the council pt, and in the supporters of the king pt. guiltylion is present in the supporters pt, but not in the council pt.

in the supporters pt, luke has been asking gl for some reads on lld for a bit now. which like, okay. then, a few hours ago, lukewarm made a mini-case on guiltylion.

he posted that case in the council pt - where gl cannot read it nor respond to it.

i think this is disingenuous and doesn't make sense from a town-perspective. the case hinges on a contradiction from gl, which i think would be beneficial for luke if gl could see it and potentially respond to it; he can't right now. but even if we ignore that...

there are only 8 people in the council pt. even if all of us agreed on gl being scum for it, that's not even enough for majority. so "shooting your shot" doesn't seem to make sense to me when you've put your case behind closed doors where most people can't see it. especially when you've also just commented you don't want the day to drag on.

---

tomorrow (wednesday) will be even more hell for me than usual, and i will likely not be able to post at all until very late evening. so if you have anything you'd like my comments on, make it in the next 12 hours; otherwise i'll get to it the day after.

[Datisi]

why is gl scum to you, enchant?

[Datisi]

said it in the supporters pt and i'll say it here, this wagon on guiltylion is trash and i do not like it

I think the things he's listing off here very succinctly describe the game he's playing here.

i don't get this post at all. he's describing things that town-datisi would notice about his play if he were scum, right? i don't notice the Bad Vibes from him yet, how is this describing his play?

1 in DW/Datsi for sure. Rev those slots down with a chainsaw in w/e order tbh but I'm more scared of Datsi wiggling their way out of a vote against me (AGAIN) then DW so B)

(why?)

(also that isn't my name)

[Datisi]

As for you? I don't think you're partnered with DW, but your play reminds me of the game I caught you correctly in you're just sort of vibing, making a few game solvey posts that are fine at a base level but nothing that wows me. However, you are the invest role so it'd be unwise for me to vote you right now, yeah? Go invest some wolves for me. If I ever get your name wrong again feel free to bonk me on the head. I apologize.

at baltar's poking, i went to look back at this game, and i think this kind of holds... except uh, in that game that you're referencing, i was bussing pretty heavily? and now i remember you ended up asking me in that game whether i'm a lolbusser and i think you ended up misclearing me for my associates with my partner, so why are you reading me as not-partnered with dwlee here?

[Datisi]

I guess it could also point to Datisi if I'm being thorough and ignoring my reads because Junko is still sorta leashed implicitly

well, firebringer didn't fund the cop department. and i did get a potion from junko, so

2374 feels wrong. like that's very clearly not guiltylion's point. kinda feels like the way scum-ausuka got uberdefensive at my one offhand remark in pictures.

2405 and 2406 are very much a "what the fuck are you doing, fire?"

okay page 98 is gonna make me scumread shea. for what it's worth, i can absolutely buy there being a world where shea/dwlee are partnered and shea shoots someone to save dwlee. mostly because i don't think it's very likely that the king makes it to endgame, either with the kingsguard revolting, or with the town wondering why that hasn't happened yet, or why the king hasn't died. so trying to do as much damage to the town in the short-term seems like a viable king strategy to me.

however, even ignoring all that, i think there's this difference in how shea is treating other slots vs how he's treating dwlee. at some point in some pt, he told me he's not capable of viewing anyone as town consistently and is always re-evaluating and etc etc. that was in response to me asking if he's considering me town. so how is:

I very clearly explained my dwlee read is based on the wagon formation, lack of counter wagons, and my experience that slots that look like this and react like this flip town way more often then scum.

lack of counterwagons. LACK OF COUNTERWAGONS. there were two. you shot one of the counterwagons and she flipped town and you're still holding onto the "there were no counterwagons" nonsense??? why are you not re-evaluating at all with the info that we got at that point wrt dwlee, but you're apparently constatly re-evaluating everything else?

vpb continues to be town in 2460 okay good maybe there is some hope in this game

Datisi might be more sus than GL after that flip, a big part of their D1 was 'Lukewarm sus'

what

you're implying that i'm scummy for shooting someone i was scumreading, and that some other people obviously were scumreading too, because ... ?

[Datisi]

as annoyed as i am about fire not giving me money, i can buy his explanation in the council pt, and i still townread him overall. and i'm also waiting on some other stuff in the council pt as well.

agree with enchant being townier today.

that wagon on guiltylion is atrocious, and dwlee really needs to die.

VOTE: dwlee

furtiveglance stonks are falling down even further. shading both fire and me in the span of 3 minutes feels opportunistic, especially since those two thought processes seem kinda difficult to co-exist.

[Datisi]

fire can say if he wants

can you answer the question at the bottom of 2490?

[Datisi]

fire can say if he wants

can you answer the question at the bottom of 2490?

Who did you push D1? One of your main pushes was Lukewarm, they just flipped town. That makes you sus to me

so the entirety of your thought process is "person pushed someone that flipped town", without any consideration about what it means that they were shot?

drapion, can you please explain to me why gl and vp are scum to you? with like, objective reasons.

[Datisi]

Is the shitty ass night kill not enough for you!???
Then we got Maria’s talk with both GL and VP and the way VP defends GL.
Then we got Maria going over and me wanting to Thunderdome VP from how they came about it.
Then we got Mastina explaining VP and GL’s votes are trying to rush day end and force Shea to kill someone cause THEY KNOW KING DID NOT WANT TOWNREAD TO DIE OBVIOUSLY.

Then GL coming here into day pulling the most obvious fucking agenda and giving people whatever the fuck in the PT to try and manipulate them.

no, it's not enough

you're not gonna sell me on anything by pointing at vp as well as guiltylion because i townread vp even more than i townread guiltylion and i utterly hate preflips like this

and i support their "rushing of votes" because maria was town and i still think dwlee is scum

what "agenda" is guiltylion pushing? i liked his posts of today

[Datisi]

Don’t you think Dwlee being town makes GL and VP more likely wolves or are you too far in their pockets to comprehend?

did dwlee flip town while i was not looking? because they're unflipped and i currently think they're scum.

i asked you to explain to me why the two of those are scum, but all you're giving me is bs gamestate reads that don't convince me and that rely on assumptions i actively disagree with

so unless you have *actual reasons* i'm not gonan waste any more posts on this

[Datisi]

i don't think the nightkill makes guiltylion scum

i don't care about any reasons that rely on vp being scum or dwlee being town because i STRONGLY disagree with both of those reads, and unless you wanna convince me on *those*, that just devolves into circular logic

and no i don't get what agenda is gl pushing because i mostly agree with his posts so

no i don't get why he's scum

[Datisi]

Ok, that makes me feel better about you. Datisi, did you drink the potion?

yes. as far as i know, nothing happened to me. but i'm uncertain whether that's any way indicative of junko's alignment, as she would've been dead had i died

[Datisi]

@Datisi, what do you make of the Lukewarm NK given your previous posts about the slot? Do you think you’re more vulnerable now after that flip?

i've never successfully done NKA in my life and i don't plan to start now. i have a few... vague ideas what it might mean, but all of them are basically guesses and don't feel helpful.

i don't get the second question. i don't feel vulnerable at all right now, with or without luke flip.

[Datisi]

i feel like i missed a few steps on why we're now assuming fire is scum and dumped the bank on luke.

i guess in a vacuum, my position is worse today than yesterday due to luke flipping green. but also i feel like (1) my other stances have been much more important and relevant for my alignment, (2) other people are more directly connected to luke (e.g. guiltylion)

so if you're looking to determine my alignment from the luke kill, you're out of luck. i don't think a kill like this would be out of my scumrange, but it would heavily depend on who my buddies are

which like, i don't get why you went towards seemingly strongly townreading me for it when there are 5 different people making a decision on the kill?

[Datisi]

i mean, i agree the wagon on guiltylion is utter garbage, i've said as such.

i am reluctant to claim that luke has been killed so that people would push guilty out, as there's wifom there on whether it would've been more helpful to keep luke alive so he can help push gl, especially since them being a tvt shitfight is good for scum

though now that i type it out, that does risk luke actually finding guiltylion...

i'm of the thought that dwlee is still a worse offender than those pushing gl today, but i will take a second look when i get home

[Datisi]

is dwlee going to address the fact their "there are other lurkers datisi could be pushing" from yesterday makes no sense? are they gonna re-evaluate at all? no? okay cool very good

[Datisi]

i think junko using "what do we learn from dwlee!?!?!" is disingenuous as fuck considering i don't see her using any knowledge from yesterday's maria flip to "learn" something today

[Datisi]

UNVOTE: dwlee

that was y-1, and i don't want to risk a self-hammer before we know that roles with day actions have gotten their actions in

obviously still on dwlee in spirit

[Datisi]

Having a protected Cop check every night puts Town in a much better position that not having one.

i think the issue is that you're assuming this is something that is possible to have in this setup, which is not information we have.

[Datisi]

i did some simping for you in the supporters pt, i got you

[Datisi]

i feel like most of mastina's arguments for dwlee can be explained with "wifom" and "scum makes mistakes". scum don't always vote their counterwagon or try to appear survivalistic because at some point it's expected of them to do so as scum. there's also a different idea that comes to mind, something about antispew. can't say for sure though.

saying that there's no reason for dwlee wagon to exist is laughable. they have no reads. they've stuck to "datisi scum" since page 5, and they stuck to it with extremely flimsy reasoning that town-them isn't that bad to do. they've continuously done nothing, and they've showed that they don't even understand why i'm pushing them with the "there are other lurkers datisi can push" comment which they haven't even addressed yet.

even "wagon reasons" and "there's no counterwagon" and whatever the shit is false by this point. there has been an *enormous* amount of resistance to this wagon.

---

@penguin, can you talk about where you're at right now? i don't think you've answered why you voted dwlee in the first place (1799). and any other thoughts on the game you have currently.

---

i don't know what game titus is reading, but it sounds more fun than this one.

[Datisi]

drapion's list:

Spoiler:

Alright I think I figured it out and I know who the exact team is.
It’s Unwnd (Johnny), Penguin Powers, Guilty Lion, VP Balter and Andres.

Andresmb

-Picks 2 of their mafia members for king guards that aren’t in the council and leaves the last 1 out of it that happens to be the specific one in my PT.
-I find it odd that this dude accuses me of defending Junko and Firebringer like I would blatantly do that, but thing is, they would and they technically are, everyone in the team is.

Unwnd

-Got bad vibes from them
-distancing from GuiltyLion by voting since VP is defending

PenguinPowers

-Says to vote out Shea and make Johnny the new king in the PT
-As soon as Mastina calls VP and GuiltyLion wolf in the PT, Penguin immediately jumps on them calling Mastina wolf for some reason, and all of a sudden Guilty and VP does the same thing elsewhere.

GuiltyLion

-Wolf read by Maria
-Speed Votes Dwlee to make King execute town.
-Has a weird mention of Penguin Power’s of thinking they can be wolf but I don’t see progression, it’s distancing.
-starts saying there can be wolf in the council due to Luke’s death however this isn’t wrong here they are just trying to redirect attention to Junko and Mastina.

VPBalter

-Got Bad Vibes from the dude since the start
-Wolf read by Maria and also Enchant has been pushing there as well
-Defends Guilty Lion
-Speed Votes Dwleee to make King execute town.


Does anyone remember if Luke Wolfread either Unwnd or Andres???

Here’s the plan, vote out Andres, vote me in as the new King Guards Leader and then vote Johnny out afterwards and vote in Furtive as the new prince and if I die tonight vote in Enchant as King Guard Leader instead of me.

VOTE: Andres

titus, i'm interested in what your stance on the game is right now. especially considering your characterization of gl/vp from earlier is like, very wrong

[Datisi]

i don't think that would work really, because if gl walked in here arguing you're scum, he would

not

hear the end of it from me.

but i do agree guiltylion is pretty town here. surprise to nobody, i'm sure.

[Datisi]

i guess i'm thinking like... this doesn't really feel survivalistic from guiltylion. i don't think he thinks that going "fuck you my thoughts on luke made sense" is something that's gonna buy him points here. i feel like scum-him would be trying to much more violently push something out rather than give out these reads. because ~gamestate reads~ don't help him survive right now. arguing why you're town can potentially be argued to be lamist, but it doesn't serve a purpose of helping him right now.

like, idk if i'm explaining this well. i feel like scum-gl would be more single-objective focused here. rather than dropping gamestate reads that people likely won't take seriously at all unless he flips green. this just... doesn't feel like scum. i'm still so fucking confused why we're even *considering* killing him instead of dwlee.

[Datisi]

i have no clue what "apathy wagon" is supposed to be when i think dwlee voters here have been the opposite of apathetic when trying to push them through

[Datisi]

oh cool i can vote dwlee again without it being a y-1

VOTE: dwlee

pls don't put them at y-1 yet though, i think there's day actions still waiting to happen

[Datisi]

- completely static reads that have not evolved since like page 5 (most notably scumreads of me/dann)
- an utterly bad faith interpretation of my joking post about me not townreading them for the same reason i was (very slightly) townreading baltar - instead of assuming it's a joke, or you know, ASKING ABOUT IT, they concluded it's a bad faith agenda to push them or something (which makes no sense when you actually consider it was page 5 and it was an absence of a small townread for something basically meaningless)
- even when presented with these reasons, they doubled down and didn't re-evaluate
- they are usually not shit at reading me, and even when they did scumread town-me once, they ended up re-evaluating
- all other reads they have are like, basically random names that don't have any sort of explanation to them
- their content amounts to them doing fuck nothing (i was okay excusing this earlier but at this point it's really bad)
- they made a weird "why is datisi pushing me when there are so many other lurkers he can push" comment which like, completely misunderstand why i have problems with their slot and i think town-dwlee would understand why i'm pushing them
- this may be just me but i feel like they're in antispew mode currently

[Datisi]

roden, i think there's a difference between "bad town play/low effort" and what they are doing here. some things can be excused as low effort. completely missing the point on things multiple times, doubling down on it, and showing zero nuanced thought even when they are around is not "low effort". you don't have to effort to show some thoughts about the game as town, to townies it comes naturally. it's not coming naturally to them.

"scum wouldn't play this bad" is not something that convinces me. at the time, their choices were to either double down on it, or actually have some thoughts on the game, because they can't just lurk indefinitely. and they were already under heavy pressure iirc. it's not easy to dig yourself out as scum.

and i just walked out of a game where a scum did spend quite a bit of their time shitpushing me for zero gain, so "why would scum push you?" is not something that changes my mind.

and i guess i kind of disagree on "scum-dwlee would understand why you're pushing them as much as town-dwlee would". i think that kind of stuff takes extra processing power for scum than for town. but that's besides my point, because i don't think that response *comes from town*. it's deliberately a bad faith argument. it's not going to convince anyone, because even if you scumread me you can tell it's a flawed argument. it reeks of doubling down for the sake of doubling down. i could maybe excuse this if the situation was different (i think townies can do purposefully bad faith arguments sometimes) but this doesn't feel like a situation it applies because i have been very clear what my issues with dwlee are and i don't think they're invalid.

[Datisi]

I think they would be in anti-spew mode and just generally not finding motivation to post if they were scum and getting hard pressured for two Days straight.

what do you consider to be "anti-spew mode" and what makes you think dwlee is not in it right now?

[Datisi]

i disagree their tunnel makes sense in the first place. and i disagree that they actually did substantial efforts in making themselves heard and understood about their scumread on me.

i'm interested in you fleshing out your takes on guiltylion, i think your most recent post on him is missing context and i personally agree with gl's post and don't think it was a perspective slip. there's also a towncase by me of gl on page 71 (including some other people) that might be of interest to you. or at least i'd like to hear your thoughts on it.

[Datisi]

no, i'm talking about that big post recently that mastina/drapion apparently called a perspective slip or whatever

i have no clue how you're concluding that luke died because scum-gl was afraid luke was gonna "see right through him" when luke was already very much "seeing through him" and calling for his head already

i already explained why i don't think that post is lamist and why reading cases against you can be a good strategy to figure out reads (just because you told someone "keep casing me and if you're town, i'll find you" doesn't mean that they will magically be able to case you in a townie way if they're scum. gl wasn't saying he was gonna townread any case against him), like i often ask people why are they sus of me because i think it's easier to figure out bad faith there

i don't get how you're simultaneously arguing that gl was goading luke into doing anti-town plays (casing gl) and that luke died because gl was afraid of him figuring him out

[Datisi]

do you SEE what i mean by static reads and completely unexplained reads

[Datisi]

UNVOTE: dwlee

have all day actions been submitted?

[Datisi]

dwlee:

I'll interact with stuff as it happens

I'm not good at the catchup game

also dwlee:

[Datisi]

in case someone else happens to "not get it" - dwlee claims to interact with stuff as it happens. show me somewhere in their iso where they've actually interacted in a meaningful way with anything.

the fact that their last two pop ins are answering gl's question (without making any sort of conclusion or inquiry about alignments) and trying to shade me should tell you something.

[Datisi]

they were there to answer gl's question in less than 10 minutes after not having posted for hours

i have a hunch this "low presence" is deliberate but what do i know idk who am i to say

[Datisi]

i love how andante's gone from dwlee 100% scum no way town to whatever the fuck this is for no reason whatsoever. no i don't think she is necessarily scum for it but jesus fuck it is annoying and these consistent counterwagons are hell. yes i am copying math, no i do not care

another reminder that dwlee is STILL not making reads and doing nothing but excuses, with no real-time interactions to solve shit. you can claim "but pokemon" or whatever but how long should we tolerate them doing nothing.

[Datisi]

like i don't even disagree unowen is scummy and needs attention soon, but like

we have been pulling teeth for this dwlee wagon, they are making every excuse under the sun to not give content, this is not the time to be splitting votes

[Datisi]

this just in: i am an idiot.

for some reason, i was under the impression that andres needed 7 people for the kingsguard again. i was about to make a post telling him to finally make his mind up and pick the last two people for it so we can move on... but he said in the council pt he needed 5 and i just glossed over that

VOTE: dwlee

y-1 i believe

[Datisi]

if anyone is interested in my responses to something, let me know. otherwise i'm not engaging in this thread muddying.

[Datisi]

if anyone is interested in my responses to something, let me know. otherwise i'm not engaging in this thread muddying.

Why take this stance when you wanted dwlee to post more, and then they finally did?

There's nothing there you wanted to respond to?

i wanted them to post more and i think what they did post told me all i needed to know

i do *want* to respond to things there. but i don't think it's going to be helpful and will just be thread bloat, unless someone other than dwlee is interested in it. because i really don't think dwlee is approaching me in good faith here and i don't think there's a point responding to them

[Datisi]

i did look at it, and i am voting dwlee lol

[Datisi]

my experience with both scum baltar and scum guiltylion tells me this is far more and convincing paranoia on my slot they have ever / could ever show but i am a silly townie pocketed by the powerwolf duo

[Datisi]

okay, first things first, i wrote up this post during the night to outline my thoughts on the game, then i posted it in the supporters pt in case i died, and since i have not died i am posting it here:

---
---

alright, i'm posting this a bit earlier than planned since i have to start getting ready now and so that i can phonepost on the way to uni if someone wants to last-minute discuss stuff with me. you people mostly know my current thoughts, but might as well have them in one place. some of these... do feel kind of circular and dependent on each other, but fucc it i've just had 2 very ez towngames, might as well be having a third one

things that i want to note: this was written before math elaborated on mastina read he did recently, i don't have the time to check it real close but i have the vibe i won't be changing my mind much there. i'm not yet sure how i feel about unowen from what he's posted during the night. i'm inclined to think he's not very likely s/s with johnny, but i'd have to check how much anti-johnny sentiment was there before he made the overthrow proposal (i feel like there was at least some?) and what the vibes were in the kingsguard pt... but i don't have time for either rn so if i'm ded take with grain of salt etc etc

---

1. town: me, baltar, guiltylion, andresvmb - i will not be spending time explaining this.

2. probably town: firebringer, titus, mathblade, enchant, shea, andante

3. uhhhh: lady lambdadelta, dannflor

4. scummy vibes: furtiveglance, drapion

5. scum: roden, unowen, mastina, johnny

---

firebringer

- this is moreso gut than anything else, but there have been a few moments where firebringer struck me as genuine in a way i don't remember him in his scumgame. the way he voted dwlee with me day 1 didn't feel like s/s. the jump onto guiltylion under the guise of "sheeping lukewarm" just feels way too out there to be a scum plan to me. and his actions in the council pt just give me this sense of like. pro-townness. he said he wants to keep the paranoia in there to a minimum and hunt outside. first, this is very risky for scum to say because it activates the natural "you pocketing me?" response. second, unless the council is chock full of scum (which i don't think it is), this doesn't benefit him much.

titus

- i don't think she's scum with dwlee. she had an opportunity to vote maria-slot on d1 instead of dwlee, she didn't. she entered d2 voting dwlee again. i know titus can bus, but i don't feel any of the flashy towncred-grabby voting that i felt when i've seen her bus before. i don't feel like she's setting anything up. it looks like she's doing her own thing and collecting information her way. and the stuff against andres feels really ??? if he's town (which i am assuming he is currently)

mathblade

- okay so usually when he's scum, i get this bad vibe from him and i feel like that he's pushing the game in a purposefully bad direction. like, i disagree with some of his takes. but for example shea stuff, i don't think scum-him genuinely thinks he's selling anything by pointing out the timestamp stuff. i just feel like he genuinely believes in what he's seeing. if the game starts going to a completely wrong direction after his influence, meaning i currently have the game mostly wrong too, i'll revisit this.

enchant

- so my way of reading enchant is "scum by default until he does something that shows a modicum of town effort". he had a few moments in the supporters pt where he seemed genuinely interested in what was happening in the game.

shea

- i'm gonna quote a few posts about him i made in the supporters pt. the first quote is responding to mathblade talking about how he thinks scum is more likely to be a dwlee defender and how shea fits that.

i think this depends on how likely it is that the game is being run by townies. like, if townies are running the game, then i can more easily see scum be desperate to save dwlee and defended them loudly so lol? reasons. if scum is in a relatively good spot, they maybe don't have to do that.

...but if shea is scum, then he can *make* his team be in a good spot, no? unless like, the entire scumteam other than him is completely potatoing the game.

yeah, i'm not sure if i actually see scum-shea saving dwlee like he did unless the entire team is in complete desperation more. which they really shouldn't be in if king is scum.

like, i was thinking of the scum strategy of "do as much damage as you can as fast as you can" if you're scum with a clear timer on your lifespan. but i don't think scum-king *has* to fit into that necessarily, it's not a given he's gonna be overthrown anytime soon.

maybe makes sense if the successor is also scum, but we always flip johnny first there anyway...

basically, i think shea hard-defending dwlee makes sense only if there's a timer on shea's life, and he's trying to do as much damage as possible to town before he dies, AND the rest of the council is mostly town so scum won't have much influence after he's gone. this... just doesn't feel likely. i don't think he'd be entering desparation mode here.

this read needs revisiting if: a lot of very-low-influence slots flip scum, and it starts being apparent there's a deepwolf / someone that's escaping us.

andante

- uhh i'm still kind of sticking to my read of her being too out there to be scum. like, going from claiming that there's no way that dwlee is scum, to then jumping ship from pushing them at the lateish moment? making a new readslist and claiming they're town actually??? like, i generally think that scum has more self-awareness than to do that. and like, i don't actually hate her votes on roden/unowen and her reads in the council pt, so.

lady lambdadelta

- lol idk. i'm tempted to put her a hair above null because ik she's a good scum player and i am skeptical she does *literally nothing* while a buddy like dwlee is choking, but like... i recall her saying somewhere that she has had games where she does nothing as both scum and town, so. in the null pile she stays.

dannflor

- i am conflicted whether to put this in this tier or the above tier. i still think my town case on him is *fine*, but... in the supporters thread, a while ago, baltar called out dann's 1722 for being weird, and i kind of agree. like he's preflipping me as town in his head. and the retrospect of "this only makes sense as s/s" (1720) with dwlee flipping red and me *checks role pm* being town, is kinda icky. and now i'm ctrl+f'ing "dann" in dwlee's iso and wondering if they're trying to "tie us together" by mostly talking about both of us as scumreads... tho this is approaching tinfoil territory again. idk this stays in null ig.

furtiveglance

- the thing that strikes off the most about them is that they feel like scum who saw a townie acting weird (firebringer) and then was annoyed that they can't get the townie yeeted for acting weird. see beginning of day 2 and their treatment of firebringer. and their associated with dwlee are like... not great. they voted guiltylion on d1, and the explanation they provided in 2213 is really bad now that luke and dwlee have flipped and guiltylion is very very likely town. they tried to counterwagon for dwlee on d2 as well. and they spoke basically nothing about dwlee on d2.

drapion

- i think there was someone hard defending dwlee. they fit. the reason they're not lower on this list is because i am still kind of skeptical scum does both of [not caring about the game much, not influencing early, not trying to get townread] and [try to steer the execution hard away from a buddy, be surprise pikachu face when they're not getting townread]. but their reads were so utterly nonsense, 2570 is horrible. the townread of dwlee is never explained.

roden

- quoting another post of mine from the supporters thread:

the way i think about it, i think roden can definitely be scum, because like... imagine you're roden replacing into a scum-penguin slot. penguin is generally suspected already, penguin's associates with dwlee have been called out as nonsense multiple times already. dwlee is on the verge of death.

bussing in that scenario likely gives you zero (0) towncred. so what do you do? find reasoning to defend dwlee. it doesn't matter if it looks ridiculous, because there is no way to go but up. either you pull off a save of the century and save dwlee, or you come off as "surely scum wouldn't do this lol" after dwlee flips

(sidenote, this is something that propped up in my last scumgame where i got townread for... really bad reasons, and i think it's valuable to think about: town often thinks "why would scum do x in this situation? they wouldn't" but they fail to consider "what are the consequences of not doing x?" and those consequences are often... Worse)

also i think trying to turn the wagon on titus is a... kind of scummy and opportunistic move. becuase titus was in that limbo where she wasn't generally townie, but iirc her associates with dwlee are Not Bad. so that's a flip you probably can't get after dwlee flips. (i'll take a look at her later to see if i'm making this up but i didn't wanna have this thought escape me in the meantime)

i have checked if my thoughts on titus were right, i think they were. his stuff on dwlee feels willfully ignorant, stuff on gl feels bad faith, it feels like he's trying to potentially start a new wagon on titus while also being able to jump on gl if that opportunity opens again.

unowen

- i think his d2 is really scummy. i called him out in the supporters pt to ask where his head is really at, because i noticed that for a good part of day 2, he's been posting things, but they're mostly questions that don't go anywhere and don't say anything about alignments. this is kind of similar to the read i had on dwlee - i think unowen has claimed to have been busy somewhere, which is fine, but if you're busy town, your thought process still goes through in your posting. this... very much didn't have any, it felt like busywork., like he didn't know what to do. and the vote on dwlee on d2 is like. really awkward and only happens once it's obvious they're likely going down.

mastina

- okay, so i've been procrastinating on this read because i don't actually know how to read mastina. but, i currently feel like shea is town and the council is pretty townie (sans johnny who's basically powerless anyway) and it would make sense that there was initiative to save dwlee and have someone run counter to the threat of the game being solved. and her reasons don't make sense to the point i struggle to imagine even mastina saying them. scum bus all the fucking time. i recall her commenting in the dead pt of defcon(was it called that?) that she died d1 only because of unnecessary bussing. she can't be not aware of that. and the post right after that is arguing that there's no counterwagon. which, for one is false, for two it's possible that scum are not *trying* to make a concentrated effort elsewhere - this is not mentioned.

the reasons for townreading dwlee are nonsense, surely i don't have to explain that. ditto on vpb and gl. i think it makes sense why these would be coming from scum, though - i don't think baltar and guiltylion are very flippable after dwlee has flipped. and it's insanely dangerous to have the two of them running the game if they have actual quality reads. and her engagements with both of them are just so bad faith.

johnny

- i think this slot is very likely scum. unwnd dropped into the game trying to shade me and save dwlee. read 1856, then read the exchange between the two of them on page 84 and tell me this doesn't look like theater. johnny has been entirely underwhelming so far and he kind of reminds me of this mini normal we played recently where he was scum in. he claimed to want to scumhunt in the council pt but his contributions are lackluster at best. he claims to townread andante because she wouldn't bus this hard, but looking at her iso i don't get the feeling she was bussing hard at all. he claims andres is scummy to him, but there is no explanation, it's just "vibes" and "i'm keeping my eye on him".

also, there's this point that i posted in the supporters pt on tuesday afternoon about a convo johnny and i had in the council pt. he = johnny, you = baltar.

there is also this chat he had with me that happened about 48 hours ago. reminder that he was defending dwlee at the time and calling their wagon an apathy wagon. (this post is addressed to baltar, i didn't finish it in time before pedits)

he said he found mastina's scumcase of you/gl *really* compelling. i asked him what case, and it boiled down to her saying how you and gl were trying to rush the dwlee vote through on d1. i asked him WHY is that scummy. he argued you two knew what would happen if you pushed shea. i once again asked him why he thinks that's scummy and what does he think that town-you and town-gl should have done in that situation.

he says you shouldn't have called his bluff and that it's possible that was scum motivation. because he did not understand why the two of you are so sure of dwlee scum that you're endagering your own slots. i specifically said that yes, you two are endagering your own slots, so what the fuck is the scum motive to do that.

his idea was that you were trying to get the king to exe maria and to make this overthrowing conversation happen.

i point out that "overthrowing" only ever happens if dwlee flips red, because shea doesn't look like a buddy saver if dwlee green.

he responds that he doesn't think dwlee def goes through. the convo ends there as i didn't bother to respond further.

---

my issue with this is that he's, in the main thread, arguing why dwlee is town (or rather why the wagon on them is bad, which is even worse), and he's trying to turn me against you two. but his reasoning for you two being scum, when taken to its natural conclusion, HAS to contain dwlee being scum. by his own explenation, otherwise nothing makes sense.

so i think he's scum choking. making it up as he goes.

[Datisi]

Interesting on the Math kill. Datisi, gib cop result.

i was waiting for someone to ask!! sad nobody else was thinking of me.

anyway. i decided i was checking in my bottomest tier. as i was rereading the game, i started feeling worse and worse about mastina, and i also started feeling like it was likely there was at least one scum who was properly/loudly defending dwlee.

i checked mastina. she is town.

and @dann, no i didn't say in advance who i was gonna check.

[Datisi]

incoming half the game praising me and half the game screaming at me for that pick. math is rolling in his grave right now. sorry math.

[Datisi]

furtive, can you answer the question gl asked you in the supporters pt about me?

[Datisi]

incoming half the game praising me and half the game screaming at me for that pick. math is rolling in his grave right now. sorry math.

That is not what you do with a Cop check. You check someone who will likely be voted.

considering how many people thought she was being scummy... i think she fit that criteria.

[Datisi]

anyway. mastina. now, i really wanna work with you this game. you have me as town last i checked - i am not bad at reading gl and vpb. DOUBLY so now that dwlee has flipped. i am willing to try to talk to you about it. i know this might be falling on deaf ears, but *please* reconsider.

i am currently undecided on dannflor. why do you think he's a likely bus vote? without saying "i already scumread him" because i am not particularly moved by that early scumread.

VOTE: roden

i love the johnny wagon. i will not pretend that i don't. but uh, something something competing wagons good for gamestate and all that. def still scumread johnny tho.

@fire, who are you considering to be scum again?

[Datisi]

i don't deny that rhae's play was ??? for scum, but if she thinks she can pocket mastina (and/or mastina has terrible reads, which i'm leaning on currently, no offense) then it's beneficial for scum to have her as king. unwnd's associates with dwlee are dogshit, and johnny's reads in the council pt are just... nonsense...

not to mention that he did say how he's gonna do some hunting or wtv and ended up doing the bare minimum. the "andante hardbussed" read makes no sense, all the scumreads are "idk vibes".

@fire, sorry i did read that but i forgot about it. i could potentially vote owen.

[Datisi]

My spicy scumread is Andante because of the Dwlee town case they made in the disenter QT

can i know the approx timeframe when this was made?

[Datisi]

hi fire can you clear up what is happening between lld/andante here wrt non-supporter pt

[Datisi]

*their

Posts 72 74 and 75 in the Dissenter thread.

sorry this doesn't mean anything to me - i mean at what point / how many pages was the main thread when she did that?

[Datisi]

@VP, @Datisi, @GuiltyLion, @Titus, I’m fine with a Johnny execution, and I will most definitely vote there if needed. I’m finding the argument that Rhaenyra wouldn’t try so strongly to put Town they seem to be solid as King to the point where they rage quit the game somewhat persuasive.

i don't think it's a ridiculous argument, but i do think it's inherently wifom and that the bad johnny stuff does not outweigh that. especially the council thread posting.

and they didn't ragequit the game, they got force replaced.

---

Roden, if GL is scum, why are you not voting him? Also, who else is scum? Why are you convinced Johnny is town?

oh hey, exactly what i was thinking about. very cool.

i skimmed the roden/gl argument. i didn't see anything from roden that made me want to change my vote. (and if he weren't arguing with gl, i'd even say i suspect this to be a walling svs fight meant to bore everyone to death.)

---

i tried to read their stuff + dann's wall in depth, but uh. big tired head empty. i'm around for like half an hour if someone wants to realtime about something, tho.

[Datisi]

i explained in my d3 intro post why i think your play very much makes sense coming from a partner replacing in

defending johnny makes sense as a buddy or as t/s and the defense itself is meh

and i am not very moved by most "i wouldn't have done this as scum" arguments because yeah

i don't feel like your scumread on gl is genuine because it feels like nitpicking stuff that isn't actually ai

if you don't feel like you can sell us on him being scum, why are you wasting so much energy arguing with him instead of trying to work with others elsewhere

[Datisi]

what about the recent events makes johnny and/or roden look better and not worse, drapion?

[Datisi]

I wolf read Johnny and Roden.

Then why dafuq you saying there is a wolf on Johnny's wagon?

Past tense buddy.
Past tense.
Read carefully.

doesn't this post say that his scumread of you two is in past tense?

[Datisi]

okay, i am home, i have coffee, time to properly read what y'all been up to

GL's response to my last post was really bad. It was just full of snipes at me and him making it clear how badly he wants to scum read me even though

he knows it doesn't actually make any sense for me to be scum here

. He's had a pretty consistent pattern of attacking and threatening anyone who suspects him all game, it doesn't really match up with his past town games.

i think the bolded part is scummy. it shows a sense of false confidence + misunderstandings of gamestate that i think comes from scum trying to make their stances be taken well while they know what they're saying is wrong. roden has done this a couple of times this game. in 2828, where he says that dwlee isn't in antispew. shutting up and fucking off from the game is about exactly what dwlee was doing there. read their iso close to that and tell me they weren't.

(sidenote, i think this behaviour is even more scum now that we know mastina is town and dwlee is scum - scum would want to give support to mastina but hide behind her.)

i already wrote about his case on gl making no sense to me, but like. i feel like it was designed as mud-flinging that he then had to walk back from. the "gl was afraid luke was gonna see through him" (2853) doesn't make sense. i get the argument roden's trying to make is that gl tried to "manipulate" luke with the "keep trying to case me", but like in what world is that something that scum does to get someone to back off or townread them? it doesn't make "intuitive" sense from town (so why would scum bother faking it). the backtracking in 2967 about the mason-game point feels similar.

Pretty obviously not scum by play but I'm used to people making bad reads on me for things that don't make sense at this point.

i don't see how town-roden here thinks that he is "very obviously not scum by play". he replaced into a scummy slot, he defended scum, he tried a counterwagon to what is very likely town, 90% of his contribution is shading another very likely town... what is obvtown about him here?

i know townies sometimes percieve themselves to be more townie than they really are. but like, i genuinely do not believe that town roden actually believes he should be townread by anyone here. from what i see, the main crux of his obvtown argument is 3339, which boils down to "scum-me wouldn't play this bad". i have used that

exact

line as scum so so many times. it's repeating the same thing over and over and hoping that other people believe it just because you keep saying it. but it doesn't make it true. nobody should buy that argument.

roden can say that my case on him doesn't make sense, but multiple people have expressed a scumread on him. we can't all be scum. hell, he said he townreads me.

to respond to 3356 while i'm at it - i checked mastina because she was very loud in defending dwlee and i thought it would make sense for scum in this gamestate to loudly defend dwlee. also i know mastina can have very good reads as town, and i still have hope that we'll be able to see that happen.

[Datisi]

i wonder if there is a post by dwlee in the scum pt that says "okay i'll intentionally not vote gl while he's my counterwagon so that you can still maybe get him killed on the basis of that"

also i think stuff from guiltylion - like the "i felt like i had no control of the game" - makes perfect sense because that was also the feeling i was getting around reading that part of the game. and the colour coding thing is like. dude lmao are you serious.

same feeling while i'm reading 3310. i cannot imagine town-roden, with a straight face, telling me that those quotes he pulled up are shading andres or wanting drapion dead. it's like, taking the absolutely most uncharitable explanation that is very clearly not intended and that anyone with a bit of awareness on the game can see.

got to dann's big post and i gotta go peel potatoes, be back soon

[Datisi]

i think the thing that most confuses me about dannflor's post/case here is that he spent a lot of time writing out associates with lld and the wagons, but very little writing out why lld is actually scum. the reasoning for her mechanical analysis being lamist and the weirdness in pushing unowen is *fine*, but i don't think it makes for a read he feels so strongly about. he said himself he's gonna explain those reads later, but why not explain it now?

bleh, as i type this, i'm less sure it's scummy, but i don't get it

other than why is unowen scum (which i already asked about in the supporters pt but might as well answer here), i don't get what makes titus scummy. she's been coasty and she voted dwlee, but i feel like scum does one or the other, not both. well, experienced scum does, which titus is.

---

3370 makes me wanna kashoot myself

gl voted dwlee after that and why would scum-gl who's busing jump from the bus onto the very uncertain cw on enchant and just WHY

---

I like Dann's re-entry into the game,

especially his Titus read

and overall theories and views. Makes me feel a lot better about him again.

that's the part i liked the least... you think titus is likely scum here?

[Datisi]

mastina, is everything ok

[Datisi]

@drapion can you please answer my question on why you changed your mind on roden and johnny

like if you're town you are gonna need to cooperate with us

[Datisi]

Bro ima need VP’s Meta and I am gonna need it badly.

Anyone got some town games and wolf games he had been in?

buddy. i've played like 10+ games with vp. probably 15+. I KNOW HIS META. I MADE A TOWNCASE ON HIM BASED ON META ON DAY 1. you are not convincing me he is scum by saying "read his posts!" because this is unironically the towniest baltar i have seen in a good while

[Datisi]

i fucking paused hollow knight so i could go on my laptop for this

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89870
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=89120

here's two most recent ones. looking forward to seeing you twist them into him being scum

pedit: those are scumgames
most recent vp towngames are

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=89631
viewtopic.php?t=89500
viewtopic.php?t=88600
viewtopic.php?t=89302

like half of these were alredy linked over the course of this game but i am glad to see you are reading very closely

[Datisi]

I haven't read mech. Don't care to after 12 hour days. Let's murder someone.

who do you wanna kill, titus?

@andante, go read my case on johnny from beginning of day and his posts in the council pt and tell me he's town

[Datisi]

"none of you have a legit reason to scumread johnny"
"i wrote a scumcase on him at sod3, go read it"
"not happening"

why

[Datisi]

I have been informed by datisi that andante has done the replace out when questioned before as town so I'mma slow my roll just a little bit.

VOTE: unvote

Oh boy do I hate that.

which part

[Datisi]

i don't think it should be townread

[Datisi]

What town case of Unowen exists that ive been apparently ignoring. Did Dats make one?
WHo is townreading Unowen.

no i made a scumcase

dann has a townread on him that i am still waiting on

also hi fireisredsir!!

[Datisi]

@fireisredsir, i wanna hear the specifics on why you think i'm scum, and why you decided to push furtive out of the 5 people you named as your lim candidates

[Datisi]

Maybe i should just listen to dats. He knows u best here i guess.
ur behavior just seems fishy to me.

baltar still town.

i can see a world where fireisredsir is scum, but that is a very grim world. (still interested in those cases tho firered)

[Datisi]

k i reread the stuff fireisredsir put out in favour of johnny and i am not convinced.

VOTE: johnny

i find it weird that seemingly no consistent counterwagon is happening here again, but uh. the whole game is lurky so idk. this should be y-3. let's actually make something happen. (yes i am aware johnny got prodded. i don't mean kill him right now.)

[Datisi]

Are we doing a repeat of dwlee with hesitation to buss or something.

Also how do you know whether scum were hesitant to bus Dwlee?

i said this yesterday that there felt like a weird hesitation to vote dwlee.
still think that was hesitant on bussing. Not sure who but yes there was unspoken hesitation i was vibing in the thread at the time that i thought was weird as hell.

how does this fit with this:

really any alignment flip on dwlee will likely not change my mind on Shea. Dwlee!scum flip would lead me to believe theres definitely bussers that i will try to evaluate tho

[Datisi]

you do know that shea cannot add new people onto the council right now, right?

[Datisi]

In the event of the death of a small council member, the following procedure will be followed:

Prince of Dragonstone - The King chooses a new heir.

Lord Commander of the Kingsguard - The Kingsguard elect a new Lord Commander from amongst their ranks

Any other Small Council Member - the King may give their duties to another member of the small council - no member of the small council may hold more than two roles at a time.

[Datisi]

i think the post is clearly implying "shea MAY give that duty to a different council member, but he is not REQUIRED to give that duty to anyone", as opposed to "he is not required to give it exclusively in the council"; notice the "no more than 2 roles" rule.

you are free to ask pooky, tho.

[Datisi]

i find it weird that seemingly no consistent counterwagon is happening here again, but uh.

It's

almost

like the town has had no cohesion whereas the scum have been unified, and thus the things happening have largely been at the behest of the scum!

ooooor townies have found each other and are influencing the game while the scum isn't sure what to do or how to get into the townblock... but sure.

[Datisi]

i mean

to me it reads like the first one is saying "scum was hesitant to bus" and the second one is saying "there are definitely bussers" and idgi