Cosmos Mafia (Postgame)

[T-Bone]

I'd respect your game more if you even made an excuse like "I forgot this was multiball, I thought/think you were/are scum who 100% knows she's town because you're scum. But then got caught up in the argument and forgot there are multiple teams so scum can't know if someone is town or not." Not those exact words, but just some sort of acknowledgement that you are A) actively following along with the game and B) actually reading my posts. I'm not trying to catch you out, I'm trying to sort you better.

Honestly admitting when you've made a mistake would have gone a long way with me. You say you want me to reconsider my reads (specifically on Mastina, but I would imagine you think I should reconsider other reads) but you are so busy being dug into a nonsensical position and unable to clarify your position it just comes off as defensive to me. Which since I already scum read you, makes it look like you crumble under pressure when scum. It makes it very difficult for me to even reconsider this read.

So like, I'm not going to keep going in circles with you. I tried to get you to clarify your words so that if you are town, I could get a better understanding where you're coming from. But I can't understand where you're coming from. You're either too defiant or too scum and I cannot tell the difference.

[T-Bone]

I see your posts a lot T-Bone and I usually just come to the conclusion of 'reasonable'

Yet you're the one who has been at the helm of mastina's wagon, so what do you think about the people who are on there with you?

In short the people I have the stronger townleans are with me on the Mastina wagon. That in itself doesn't mean anything, but it makes me feel better that I'm on the right track. Maybe we're all wrong, or maybe they are scum using me to get a mislim. That's something I don't know right now and can only reevaluate with time and flips.

[T-Bone]

Does anyone think I'm asking Yume gotcha questions or what? I feel like I'm asking reasonable questions based on the things they are saying. Someone sanity check me if its not the case.

I think I find your questions unproductive.

I am not sure if they are gotcha or not but I don’t think they are helpful.

It’s extremely unlikely we elim Yume today.

So I’d ask what is your goal by asking them?

Trying to sort. I am apparently the only person who reads Yume as scum. Not everyone is scum, so some townies have a real town read. Do I have a hero read or am I missing something? That's what I was trying to find out.

[T-Bone]

I see your posts a lot T-Bone and I usually just come to the conclusion of 'reasonable'

Yet you're the one who has been at the helm of mastina's wagon, so what do you think about the people who are on there with you?

Spoiler: Reads 1.0

Town Lean
Frozen Angel
Nancy and the Nancettes

Null Lean
Radical Rat
Enchant
Proffessotic
Maid Cafe (confirmed in my heart)
MathBlade

Null
Scafmanship
MMR
Bunnyonce
STD

Scum Lean
Mastina
Radja
Furtive
Yume
DDS

This is where I was last week for reference. If I were to make changes it would be to move your slot up to null, Furtive up to scum lean but less than the others, possibly null, Maid Cafe down to null, and Bunny down to scum lean.

[T-Bone]

It's a week old so I guess I better do 1.1 patch actually.

Spoiler: Reads 1.1

Town Lean
Frozen Angel
Nancy and the Nancettes

Null Lean
Enchant
Radical Rat
Proffessotic
MathBlade

Null
Maid Cafe
Scafmanship
Ydrasse
unwnd
MMR
Furtive

Scum Lean
Bunnyonce
DDS
Yume
Mastina

[T-Bone]

OH I GOT YOU MEG

[T-Bone]

Does anyone think I'm asking Yume gotcha questions or what? I feel like I'm asking reasonable questions based on the things they are saying. Someone sanity check me if its not the case.

I think I find your questions unproductive.

I am not sure if they are gotcha or not but I don’t think they are helpful.

It’s extremely unlikely we elim Yume today.

So I’d ask what is your goal by asking them?

Trying to sort. I am apparently the only person who reads Yume as scum.

Which proves you're wrong. Not to mention how you're saying that we should trust multiple people who scumread mastina, yet when it comes to me, you're saying that we should trust your word against that of multiple people. Which comes off as hypocritical to me.

Way to cherry pick.

[T-Bone]

I see your posts a lot T-Bone and I usually just come to the conclusion of 'reasonable'

Yet you're the one who has been at the helm of mastina's wagon, so what do you think about the people who are on there with you?

Spoiler: Reads 1.0

Town Lean
Frozen Angel
Nancy and the Nancettes

Null Lean
Radical Rat
Enchant
Proffessotic
Maid Cafe (confirmed in my heart)
MathBlade

Null
Scafmanship
MMR
Bunnyonce
STD

Scum Lean
Mastina
Radja
Furtive
Yume
DDS

This is where I was last week for reference. If I were to make changes it would be to move your slot up to null, Furtive up to scum lean but less than the others, possibly null, Maid Cafe down to null, and Bunny down to scum lean.

Can you elaborate on Scarf? I feel their push on us is very very bad. I'd put MMR, mastina and Yume higher with Enchant lower (just by a tier) and Professor much lower. Bunny could go null/lean scum. I want furtiveglance to be higher as well as I feel the effort screams that he's town. I know that's a few names I'd change but aside from that I'm largely okay with your readlist atm.

~Titus

Scarf exists in the null space for me because I don't really know much about them. They haven't posted much that I've felt like I had questions on or needed to comment on. They also haven't posted anything that I thought 'oh, this might be town.'

MMR exists in a similar space where I just don't know what to think about them.

Our disagreements over Mastina and Yume are well documented so I won't repeat them in this post.

I read Professor as town early...there was some weirdness when there was pressure on them around the Bunny vote and his wagon that will probably prevent me from ever trusting them as town, but not enough where I could drop them into a tier that I'd want to lim today.

Enchant feels kinda townie to me...but he also feels indifferent. I almost moved him into the tier with you and FA actually, but I decided I still need to see more before I can fully commit there.

Furtive is slowly moving up for me. I didn't like his posting early in the day phase and why I didn't it fairly well documented. But I find that he has made more takes recently that I look at and think "oh, this is a reasonable town take". So there's a bit of push and pull there where I am evolving the read on Furtive, but I am doing so cautiously because of how I felt earlier in the phase.

[T-Bone]

Does anyone think I'm asking Yume gotcha questions or what? I feel like I'm asking reasonable questions based on the things they are saying. Someone sanity check me if its not the case.

I think I find your questions unproductive.

I am not sure if they are gotcha or not but I don’t think they are helpful.

It’s extremely unlikely we elim Yume today.

So I’d ask what is your goal by asking them?

Trying to sort. I am apparently the only person who reads Yume as scum. Not everyone is scum, so some townies have a real town read. Do I have a hero read or am I missing something? That's what I was trying to find out.

I don’t have a read on Yume and probably won’t for a bit.

I think that (assuming you are trying to sort Yume) trying to sort Yume instead of collaborating towards an elim is destructive here.

I mean I'm voting Mastina, leading the Mastina wagon, and she's at e-1. Not much more I can do until Mastina returns to claim and/or someone hammers.

Tbone, do you think I'm going crazy in that I'm expecting X to happen and it didn't?

Pedit: Bunny wagon if I can get Nancy to vote there?

~Titus

Sorry I think I'm missing the context? Expecting what to happen?

[T-Bone]

I agree with 2/4 of your scumleans right now. What do you think about the discrepancy I pointed out in DDS' behavior towards bunny and the fact they scumread them? #2535 (it's been YEARS and I still don't know or care how to link posts directly)

I Ctrl+F'd one of your choices and I'm struggling to get where you think this slot is scum from your own behavior around them

Is this the right post?

I think I agree, and I think I've said as such. I think DDS is scum too.

[T-Bone]

I'm not offended I don't crave town reads, in fact I don't want them. I'm a little puzzled by thinking I'm not Mastina's partner because I feel like I have a ton of partner equity with her, but you'd also have to know more about how I play as scum to make that connection. You'll have to take my word for it I guess

[T-Bone]

I agree with 2/4 of your scumleans right now. What do you think about the discrepancy I pointed out in DDS' behavior towards bunny and the fact they scumread them? #2535 (it's been YEARS and I still don't know or care how to link posts directly)

I Ctrl+F'd one of your choices and I'm struggling to get where you think this slot is scum from your own behavior around them

Is this the right post?

I think I agree, and I think I've said as such. I think DDS is scum too.

I know it's just assumptions but do you think DDS is likely to just blindly pick out a partner like that in their scumlist? Might ISO bunny next regardless

So like if DDS is scum, then they are just coming in to meet the activity and content requirements of the game. Like I think you and I would mostly agree that their content is lacking. I think it's lacking because they might be scum. I think the evidence for that is naked votes on any Mastina counterwagon, no real discussions of their reads (so they aren't locked into stances and can change later, which you have pointed out a bit). Like if DDS put a naked vote on a partner and we later tried to pressure them into justifying it, DDS has an out "oh well we were just trying to do something, we don't have to think they are scum". And DDS has done this to several slots. They could all be town, one could be a partner they mixed in intentionally for distancing. We have no way of knowing that for sure. So I guess my point is since DDS is a low content slot I don't know why they have done anything this game. Because explainations have been few and far between.

I'm not offended I don't crave town reads, in fact I don't want them. I'm a little puzzled by thinking I'm not Mastina's partner because I feel like I have a ton of partner equity with her, but you'd also have to know more about how I play as scum to make that connection. You'll have to take my word for it I guess

Your commitment towards her death doesn't seem like a situation where you happened to just vote her early and you feel locked into it. You probably had a lot of time to change your mind, yet you haven't. I also dunno if hardbussing is the play when numbers matter this much (see: multiball)

So like this is strategic on my part. Mastina has been the leading wagon most of the day phase. So even though I do consider other players that could be scum as well, if I get off Mastina that means I'm conceding that I'm not eliminating this scum read today. From my perspective I felt like I have done my best to evaluate and reevaluate my read on Mastina. It's hard for me to prove since I haven't changed my read, but I have revaluated a few times with myself to see if anything had changed. But I recognize that in thread it looks like it hasn't because I haven't moved my vote, and I've been talking about other scum reads a lot more recently. If Mastina wasn't the leading wagon, if I was the only one on Mastina, I'd be looking for compromise elsewhere in my scum reads for sure.

[T-Bone]

I don't want to ramble on about things others don't care about
I'd rather be vague and focus my effort where I think it's worth most than explain things and get ignored or talked over

So I care about your thoughts. I won't quote the longer post you made because you said you don't want to go into it.

But like what does DDS!town want me to see? I've explained briefly why I read your scum as slot, and you've more or less admitted here that you want to be vague in your posts. So it's a bit of a smack in the face when you say you're frustrated with me but also not giving the game much. I don't think I've directed very many posts at you as much as I've directed posts at other players.

Like you do you. But I can't look at your slot and base my read on things you're not posting you know? I don't know what those other things you think are more worth it so you make vague posts instead. Help me out here a little bit.

[T-Bone]

TBone's position, although I disagree with it, is part of why I townread TBone. A lot of times people confuse "reevaluating" with coming around to their position rather than respecting a difference of opinion. The common mantra is that I have all the "facts" so if I give more "information" then people will come around. However, sometimes people look at the same event and just see it differently (see: What color is the dress?).

Given how I feel about the strategic implications, I don't think scum would sit on mastina unless they felt their partners were in extremely wagonable positions. So his play makes sense for someone who legitimately feels that way. Truth be told, sometimes I go back and forth about what scum would do but I think TBone's approach is town here based on his detailed positions. He could be deep scum but I highly doubt it. The problem is, even with the stalled gamestate, I just feel like I'm missing some facts to be very conclusive.

~Titus

I think I mentally do my reads and revaluations on a sliding scale. Like that's how I picture a read when I think about it, with town at one end and scum at the bottom. That's why when I post a list especially early in the game I say town lean and scum lean and not town read or scum read. My reads are on an abacus. I also try to talk about my reads like that because I don't have absolute certainty on anyone's alignment.

[T-Bone]

Does anyone think I'm asking Yume gotcha questions or what? I feel like I'm asking reasonable questions based on the things they are saying. Someone sanity check me if its not the case.

I think I find your questions unproductive.

I am not sure if they are gotcha or not but I don’t think they are helpful.

It’s extremely unlikely we elim Yume today.

So I’d ask what is your goal by asking them?

Trying to sort. I am apparently the only person who reads Yume as scum. Not everyone is scum, so some townies have a real town read. Do I have a hero read or am I missing something? That's what I was trying to find out.

I also think Yume is probably scum.

Yet neither of you are willing to vote for me.

We can all agree that Yume is smart enough to know that Rat and I doing this would make Rat's wagon the highest one and cause him to get eliminated instead of a player we both highly scumread come deadline, yes?

[T-Bone]

Oh wow did not see Yume had voted. I retract all of that. Was not expecting it.

[T-Bone]

Doubtful. I've maintained I think you're scum if Mastina flips town (and vise versa if she flips scum), although I am surprised by your vote.

[T-Bone]

Sure it's possible. Your Mastina vote has shook my read to the core.

[T-Bone]

Huh thanks for putting to words what I have been feeling.

[T-Bone]

There is no way that’s a real thought.

I don't think it means lock town but I'm also reconsidering the read based on that so it's a real thought.

[T-Bone]

IN THESE HARD TIMES WHERE ONE USES OUTDATE META READS AND ANOTHER JUST GOES TO SAY "MASTINA IS INACCURATE AT DAY 1!!!!!!!" WHEN IT'S DAY 1 AND NO BASED INFO AVALIABLE, IT'S FUCKING MY TIME TO BE HERO THIS TOWN NEEDS, BUT DIDN'T DESERVE.

SHEEP ME FOOLS.

VOTE: BUNNYONCE

Have I ever told you that you're secretly my favorite player?

[T-Bone]

If mastina is so obvtown then why does she seem like an island. Nobody is directly interacting with her

If I were so obvscum then why do I seem like an island? Nobody was directly interacting with me. That ain't a scum trait, it's a town trait.

I mean the last time you were active was midnight Halloween. Your activity patterns haven't been conducive to people interacting with you. Plus the lack of concise posting I think turns people off. Both those things are fine and not alignment indicative, but I also don't think you can represent something that isn't happening here.

I'll follow you on one of my alternative scumreads pending the end of this catchup if I like it. Hope that helps, you don't need to respond to this, do your thing.

[T-Bone]

The tl;dr is Yume putting you at e-1 has shook me. If Yume is scum it was brilliant fwiw.

[T-Bone]

Okay I'm sold for now on 2807.

Unvote

[T-Bone]

There, space officially given.

[T-Bone]

Was that premature? idk

[T-Bone]

I could put my vote back and wash my hands of this if you really want. But Mastina is an adult, she can handle me posting right now.

[T-Bone]

You got me, that's my motivation caught red handed.

[T-Bone]

That's all right, because if she dies and flips town, I will just shove her posts at all of you until all of you remember them.

I will team up with both scumteams to elim you.

Seconding this

[T-Bone]

Enchant and I are masons now. Just used my masonizer power.

[T-Bone]

2822 proof Mastina is an adult and could handle the commentary during catch up you owe me a soda now Yume.

[T-Bone]

I mean if you want to get technical I have no town reads just a sliding scale of people I think are more/less likely to be town/scum.

[T-Bone]

I have no attunement,mention of attunements, or anything like that in my role PM.

So, I'm just looking for someone else, without revealing their role, to just give an indication that they see something similar in theirs. Preferably someone I lean town on, so like a Nancy/Titus or I dunno Enchant?

[T-Bone]

I don't think it's a lie. But Mastina is adamant that the info contained in her role PM makes Rat's claim fake. Since my role PM lacks these things and apparently Enchant too, it's not so clear then yeah?

[T-Bone]

I don't think it's a lie. But Mastina is adamant that the info contained in her role PM makes Rat's claim fake. Since my role PM lacks these things and apparently Enchant too, it's not so clear then yeah?

[T-Bone]

Yeah I agree we probably have enough data points now. I'll say my role says what I can do and my win condition and that's it.

[T-Bone]

I don't want to start mechanic speculating or trying tou out guess the mod cause those things are unproductive but I vibe with Scarf on this page.

[T-Bone]

Okay so I don't want Scarf to be the Mastina counterwagon now.

[T-Bone]

For the record Mastina's claim is NAI there's no reason any role cannot be scum. Im fine letting these threads breathe for a bit so I can also sleep.

[T-Bone]

Umm mastina, how do you have a read on a head that has never posted? Auro has said nothing.

~Titus

I agree her reads are illogical but she’s town.

Happy?

You should have just let Mastina answer this. It's a reasonable question.

[T-Bone]

Or rather I wish you did anyway

[T-Bone]

I let myself get talked out of a wagon I think is scum again, so I reserve the right to be indignant if we find out later it was right.

VOTE: bunnyonce

[T-Bone]

I'm fine with a Bunny wagon. Nancy left the decision with me. Not my super preferred but it's time to end the day

I'll resort mastina over the nightphase. That Auro read is ?

~Titus

I'm not necessarily done with Mastina either...just done for now.

[T-Bone]

Gottem

[T-Bone]

To circle back to your first question. This is multiball, the only way I or anyone can be informed of someone's alignment on Day 1 is if we're on the same scum team (or there is a role like mason). So it couldn't be true that I am scum who knows Mastina is town and trying to mislim her. At best I would be scum who knows Mastina isn't on my team.

To answer your second it's because I was scumreading Mastina and Yume was defending Mastina so hard. It's a ballsy play by Yume if they are in fact scum, be a use all they have to do is sit back, let Ydrasse or whoever was gonna hammer instead, and then if Mastina flips town use that as an excuse to push the likes of me or Mathblade.

If Yume is in fact playing 4D chess by anticipating that's how I would read their play then my hats off to them there's nothing I can do.

[T-Bone]

Because I had voiced that I was thinking if Mastina flipped town then scum!Yume was trying to pocket for towncred.

[T-Bone]

@T-Bone: thanks for patiently rehashing stuff you've probably said somewhere at some point :3

To circle back to your first question. This is multiball, the only way I or anyone can be informed of someone's alignment on Day 1 is if we're on the same scum team (or there is a role like mason). So it couldn't be true that I am scum who knows Mastina is town and trying to mislim her. At best I would be scum who knows Mastina isn't on my team.

Sure, I understand that. I think it still fits Yume's point for you to be scum in multiball, though. Her point is something like "You would have reconsidered your read if you weren't informed". Change the word "informed" to "scum" and the argument still works? Like, "You would have reconsidered your read if you actually cared about who we limmed beyond it not being you or your partner."

To answer your second it's because I was scumreading Mastina and Yume was defending Mastina so hard. It's a ballsy play by Yume if they are in fact scum, be a use all they have to do is sit back, let Ydrasse or whoever was gonna hammer instead, and then if Mastina flips town use that as an excuse to push the likes of me or Mathblade.

If Yume is in fact playing 4D chess by anticipating that's how I would read their play then my hats off to them there's nothing I can do.

Yeah, I've never really strongly bought into the idea that if someone is off a miselimination then they have more "credit" to push whoever was on the miselimination. I don't see what's so rocket-science-y about scum being on a miselimination and still pushing others on the same wagon the next day? Like, all you need to say is "I think someone misled us yesterday".

Because I had voiced that I was thinking if Mastina flipped town then scum!Yume was trying to pocket for towncred.

Am I interpreting this correctly? You voiced that if mastina is town, then Yume might have been trying to pocket her. So why is it impossible for Yume to predict that if she stops acting like she is pocketing mastina, then you would start townreading her?

-Aisa

Re the first quote. I can only play based on what people say, not what they don't. Yume used specific language and never clarified their language or said 'oh I meant something different' so all I could do is use the language they used.

Re the second. Except that Yume specifically was claiming who they would go after if Mastina flipped town. Yume has consistently presented Mastina as town and their read as a forgone conclusion. So I was specifically reacting to the way Yume played.

Re the third quote. So again Yume was presenting their play that Mastina being town was fact. Not something they suspected, not something they merely read, but as something that was a fact. So, maybe Yume's vote is part of a master plan and you can make that argument if you want. It changed my view of Yume as a player because their vote went against basically their entire ISO.

[T-Bone]

If I were scum, why would I want the one of few persons who can successfully peg me as such to replace in? To be clear, jjh can't be pocketed by me, so if you're thinking along those lines, you'd be wrong.

I'm not criticizing you I'm explaining why I think your vote for Mastina changes my read of you because that's what Bunny asked.

[T-Bone]

Well I know what I want to do.

[T-Bone]

Well I know what I want to do.

Vote me?

You're not that special

[T-Bone]

Dingle Dangle Scarecrow is blessed by the lunar goddess Luna. They cannot be aligned with the Solar Cult. If they were eliminated during this phase, the Lunar Cult would have been vanilaised. The Lunar Cult was the only group with access to this information.

DDS was a tertiary read for people. They were even offered up as alternatives and shot down. This is something I clocked to myself during the night, so I'm posting to give myself some accountability to compare notes.

I want to lim Mastina, but I don't want another long fight about it right now. Maybe try again later in the day.

[T-Bone]

Dingle Dangle Scarecrow is blessed by the lunar goddess Luna. They cannot be aligned with the Solar Cult. If they were eliminated during this phase, the Lunar Cult would have been vanilaised. The Lunar Cult was the only group with access to this information.

DDS was a tertiary read for people. They were even offered up as alternatives and shot down. This is something I clocked to myself during the night, so I'm posting to give myself some accountability to compare notes.

I want to lim Mastina, but I don't want another long fight about it right now. Maybe try again later in the day.

Can this wait until Dusk 2 please after she gives a result?

If she’s scum then we at least get wine. I think she’s town though.

Yeah it's fine. I think we have a few things we can cross reference anyway (opposition to mastina's wagon, bunny's wagon, opposition to DDS).

There wasn't a lot of serious discussion in my opinion on Mathblade being scum so I don't think those same associatives with the solar team exists, but if someone thinks otherwise I'm open to that data.

[T-Bone]

Dingle Dangle Scarecrow is blessed by the lunar goddess Luna. They cannot be aligned with the Solar Cult. If they were eliminated during this phase, the Lunar Cult would have been vanilaised. The Lunar Cult was the only group with access to this information.

DDS was a tertiary read for people. They were even offered up as alternatives and shot down. This is something I clocked to myself during the night, so I'm posting to give myself some accountability to compare notes.

I want to lim Mastina, but I don't want another long fight about it right now. Maybe try again later in the day.

What sort of non-vanilla abilities do we think the cults have? Recruitment?

I mean regardless of abilities available, if you're scum and you're told 'if you lim this one random townie day 1 you lose your PRs' you're gonna treat it like a secondary win condition.

[T-Bone]

This is why I hate mafia in general. People act like their opinion is always right even when it's not.

You're literally doing that LOL all game, every single post

[T-Bone]

Think for a moment: my death vanillizes an entire scum team yesterday (and possibly going forward).

You were never in danger what do you even mean???

[T-Bone]

Granted DDS never got run up either, basically Scarf had their vote parked all day. I still feel like more people talked about DDS as a possibility than Math. There are a lot of posts to go through.

Yeah it's just a game. I think this flips town as well. I've tried to create counter wagons but we all seem to disagree on who, and I think there are more pushers than defenders of mastina anyway.

Actually a lot of people agree on DDS but no one wants to vote there for some mysterious reason. Maybe they are being influenced by a spectral wolf.

DDS seems to be tertiary for a lot of people. Probably because they are a slot with low thread presence. It would take someone brave enough to start that conversation though.

I noted it as far back as this post.

[T-Bone]

LMFAO only Mastina defended them/called them town. I checked the 30 pages from that post I just quoted. Scarf, Furtive, Math, and myself all at one point during that time called DDS scum, and then Titus asked a few people on their opinions on DDS but whomever was asked never responded. I guess we do not have the cool data points I thought we did SIGH

[T-Bone]

I was actually looking for people defending DDS, which I only found Mastina doing. I thought there were more people but alas (there might have been if people called them dangle or by the names inside the hydra)

[T-Bone]

Not even defending, just shading and redirecting. Also Bunny did it, but they are gone now so bleh

[T-Bone]

Think for a moment: my death vanillizes an entire scum team yesterday (and possibly going forward).

You were never in danger what do you even mean???

Is this true? Klick was pretty certain math had a ton of votes at one point, but the VCS aren't great.


I really liked scarf's post on this page, felt v town.

Prof scum read us quite hard at a few points. Out of t-bones list, the only person I think could be scum is furtive.

B

I don't think it was. But also your slot never had the pressure or votes I thought you had either.

[T-Bone]

I didn't make a list of people who mentioned a scumread of DDS on day 1 to saysay they are scum I was actually looking for town reads on DDS to say they were scum. Regardless of what alignment Furtive is it's not unreasonable for him to have a scumread cause A) multiball and B) he's not the only one.

[T-Bone]

On us? That's fine, but I can't point you to any reason to tr the slot, which isn't true for other slots who scum read us.

That's fine I just wanted to make sure we were understanding one another rather than not.

[T-Bone]

If you're not sure your check went through, and you townread the target enough to discard the maybe-guilty on those grounds, why wouldn't you just try again later before claiming?

What is this nonsense?

[T-Bone]

I don't believe in leaving night action claims hanging around, they have to be resolved with an elimination.

[T-Bone]

Open question: Why does scum MMR make this play?

To make you ask why would scum do this.

That is in fact, always the answer to why a scum player may do something.

[T-Bone]

I do have to slow everyone's role though. If you're investigate role there is nothing wrong with investigating your town reads.

With that said, yeah Enchant and I would have been more optimal targets but y'all can give MMR a chance to explain their reasons. It's 1v1 now.

[T-Bone]

Open question: Why does scum MMR make this play?

To make you ask why would scum do this.

That is in fact, always the answer to why a scum player may do something.

OK, well disregard half my post then, but still kill MMR...? If anything that makes PPF look better

At this point I don't know which slot needs to flip. I was just commenting on your question.

[T-Bone]

/Inb4 T-Bone is scum for setting up a 1v1

[T-Bone]

With that said, yeah Enchant and I would have been more optimal targets

Why

Because we're confirmed town super masons

[T-Bone]

Town Loyal Neapolitan check:
1. Target not Town? No Result
2. Target VT? VT result.
3. Target Town PR? Not VT result.

Obvs if you sussing me then it makes sense but lol

This was my thought process as well, but there is a ton of pushback that PPF is town, so I feel out of the loop.

Something something meta can't possibly wrong.

You do you and you'll probably feel saner.

[T-Bone]

Town Loyal Neapolitan check:
1. Target not Town? No Result
2. Target VT? VT result.
3. Target Town PR? Not VT result.

Obvs if you sussing me then it makes sense but lol

This was my thought process as well, but there is a ton of pushback that PPF is town, so I feel out of the loop.

Something something meta can't possibly wrong.

You do you and you'll probably feel saner.

Do I need to requote my post from Doubles’ where I correctly tr Mastina based off of - you guessed it - meta?

No meta is trash.

And I'll just grab your Taly quotes so...

[T-Bone]

Way more interested in MMR's maybe guilty on you tbh

[T-Bone]

It isn't a scumclaim.
It isn't impossible for PPF to Town Ascetic or if we got blocked.
The Loyal modifier doesn't make PPF scum unless it can be proven that the above was false.
-Rubella

Shouldn't the most obvious solution be pursued first?

That's what my hydra partners think.
-Rubella

Can like someone from your hydra make clear what your claim is, what your result is, and what that means???

[T-Bone]

Like if it's a mechanical guilty let's do something about it. That's what it seems like it might be but yet...?

[T-Bone]

They couldn't have been that fine since we didn't manage to lim Mastina!

[T-Bone]

So confession time... I've read very little of Day 1 and do not intend to read it.

As to why PPF, it's because it is the sensible choice. Like if I was being selfish and thinking only in terms of my own reads, I would check MathBlade because he has a very high chance of being scum, but checking MathBlade is not the practical choice. He is not practical because if he is scum, we don't gain any new insight. Past Present Future on the other hand is 1) unlikely to get killed if town 2) hard to scum read as either alignment 3) a constant presence in the thread. Understanding their alignment allows us to understand the overall game state.

~Mumps

Okay and what is this great understanding of PPF's alignment that we should now have based on your claim?

[T-Bone]

And please explain what accountability means. Because to me bunny was a ??? slot and I was ok with getting rid of a ??? slot because no wagons were picking up and the day was going to end.

^This.

I originally was gunning for Scarfmanship, but Scarfmanship's posting around my claim made me reconsider. [REDACTED - thought not town to talk about], and their posts warning to stop what T-Bone/Enchant did, was something I thought was also town.

Since I didn't want Scarfmanship, I needed to vote

someone

.

Someone not a townread.

I voted Bunnyonce for lack of better ideas. I knew that there were people who had said Bunnyonce was south of null--so I knew that, given the looming deadline, it was a good chance for a wagon that might go through which I would be okay with.

We had a big shake-up within the last 36 hours of D1. (I didn't know my claim was that big of a deal. I didn't know how big my role was.)
I was swamped with things, and I didn't have any time to properly process the events and form a coherent push on anyone. So I voted Bunnyonce as a "good enough for now" vote.

This is a weirdly accurate post and very out of character, but this is all true so I dunno why people are arguing differently about the end of day 1.

[T-Bone]

And the reason I fear her is because if she is scum, she'll kill me. Her words, not mine.

I'm really curious about this thought. You are Mastina's biggest ally and pocketed if she's scum. Why would you be paranoid of a nightkill from her?

[T-Bone]

If the person elimmed flips town then I dayvig the other.

Pretty straightforward no?

I'm kinda laying off Mastina as scum with the implicit hope that you shoot her so i mean...not a fan of this?

[T-Bone]

Cool I caught up.

VOTE: MMR

Done with this slot. Come in, maybe claim a guilty on PPF, and then pretends it never happens.

[T-Bone]

What the fuck people how am I on Mastina's side, are we actually scum together what the fuck???

[T-Bone]

If the person elimmed flips town then I dayvig the other.

Pretty straightforward no?

I'm kinda laying off Mastina as scum with the implicit hope that you shoot her so i mean...not a fan of this?

With the guilty on the board I can’t just not shoot in PPF/MMR. That’s antitown.

I can also vibe with this if we flip Mastina but damn I hate leaving that 1v1 unresolved.

[T-Bone]

I don't like being told what to do bruh

[T-Bone]

I don't like being told what to do bruh

then why do u listen to what the mod tells u to do when tell us to post

You got me

[T-Bone]

If the person elimmed flips town then I dayvig the other.

Pretty straightforward no?

I'm kinda laying off Mastina as scum with the implicit hope that you shoot her so i mean...not a fan of this?

With the guilty on the board I can’t just not shoot in PPF/MMR. That’s antitown.

I can also vibe with this if we flip Mastina but damn I hate leaving that 1v1 unresolved.

Me too but majority of players don’t seem to want it so I will have to decide it tomorrow if Mastina is elimmed.

I understand where unwnd is at.

I don't understand what happened to Yume?

[T-Bone]

You wanted to kill mastina D1 why not now

Cause we're scum together obviously. I told you all I could hard bus day 1 but you all didn't listen when I said we had the most scum equity together

[T-Bone]

I don't understand what happened to Yume?

yume flip flopping on a dime isn't unusual

You haven't spent the game arguing against the wall about Mastina's alignment like I have. I'm emotionally invested at this point.

[T-Bone]

Now that you're calling me a Mastina defender I cannot take you seriously.

[T-Bone]

T-bone u can take me seriously. I have the best wagons to sell, coming in low low prices

Why do you think Mastina is scum?

[T-Bone]

If the person elimmed flips town then I dayvig the other.

Pretty straightforward no?

I'm kinda laying off Mastina as scum with the implicit hope that you shoot her so i mean...not a fan of this?

With the guilty on the board I can’t just not shoot in PPF/MMR. That’s antitown.

I can also vibe with this if we flip Mastina but damn I hate leaving that 1v1 unresolved.

Me too but majority of players don’t seem to want it so I will have to decide it tomorrow if Mastina is elimmed.

If it's like E-2 when there's a VC we can just do it. E-3 if you want to include Enchant in that calc.

[T-Bone]

some crap

No I don't want you to put scum names in curly braces, I wanted PPF specifically to do it, because they refuse to give us any meaningful content because they know they are going to die soon and do not want to slip their partners or any interesting information.

For me it's just something telling me she could be buddying me.

Mastina decided not to buddy me last night because it would be too easy to vote me off instead.

They really just went and shot professorotic cause they were afraid of losing thread control

Probably the best take i have seen in the entire game so far.


VOTE: PPF

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Resolve the guilty check today by voting out PPF. The mechnaically correct thing to do next is let mastina claim a check or lackthereof, dayvig/kill MMR and mastina tomorrow based on info. Kill the biggest mastina supporter today (PPF) to ensure that we can get mastina tomorrow if need be.

If no one listens to this I am willing to compromise and vote out but I think it is the most correct course of action.

Okay, but what do you think about MMR just not clarifying their claim...or even throwing down a vote on PPF?

[T-Bone]

There is no guilty check, right? Someone clarify that for me.

The slot won't clarify.

[T-Bone]

There is no guilty check, right? Someone clarify that for me.

The slot won't clarify.

So there is no guilty.

Who knows? They aren't telling.

[T-Bone]

It's almost like they're scum trying to revive the mastina wagon to both prevent me from using my role and prevent the MMR wagon from going through!

Okay that's not it. Crisis averted.

[T-Bone]

I got your picture
I'm coming with you
Dear, Mario
Count me in!
There's a story at the bottom
of this warp-pipe that I jumped in!

[T-Bone]

There is no guilty check, right? Someone clarify that for me.

The slot won't clarify.

Yes, MMR seems to be quite deliberately avoiding fullclaiming the specifics with an entire paraphrase of their role.

I wonder why?

What do you think that we should do, then?
Each night, we target a player to see if they're VT or not. If they're not Town or our action doesn't go through, we get no result.
Though, I did forget one thing.
We're informed that at least one of the scum has a role almost identical to us.
-Rubella

You're not even voting PPF. So?

[T-Bone]

It's probably better if there is a little suspense over Math's target.

Though I'll be unhappy if it happens outside a certain subset of people.

[T-Bone]

mastina isn't a counterwagon to the guilty

I am fine with killing either one. My war is against mastina apologists

It absolutely is lol

[T-Bone]

Bah PPF is tactically the better vote because of their interactions with everyone, especially Mastina.

But MMR has gone beyond simply botching a role claim. While I can believe town can botch a claim, MMR in general trying is to pretend it didn't happen. If I had a role result that implicated another player as scum I would not stop to follow through on it. I feel like everyone else on the playerlist would do so too. It feels like MMR is just hoping we stop talking about their claim. It goes beyond botching a claim. They've had so many days to clarify their claim, lay everything out clearly, and try to lead an elimination based on it and they haven't.

So I think MMR is the correct vote today.

[T-Bone]

You're on the other side Math, tell me what, if any of that, you disagree with that means we should resolve PPF instead.

[T-Bone]

VOTE: Scarf

Since d1, they’ve been sussing me for bs reasons. First, it’s because I defended my strong tr and threatened me not voting him Then he susses me because he’s the cw and thinks I’m defending Dangle or something p. Now I’m suddenly inexplicably Solar. I just think his reads on us are fake.

We should flip Scarf of all people instead of resolving one of the two slots entangled by a claimed guilty? Why would that be more important?

[T-Bone]

I don't even know what you're doing. Is this you flailing because you're actually scum? There's no benefit for town!PPF to not flip MMR.

[T-Bone]

Like, zero. Nada. I don't know why you keep trying to shift the game elsewhere.

[T-Bone]

Right, if you're town stuck in a 1v1, you know that the rest of your fellow townies needs to see the 1v1 resolved. Only scum doesn't need to see the 1v1 resolved, because there's always tomorrow for them.

[T-Bone]

In contrast PPR is demonstrated an unwillingness to cooperate and the other two slots have cooperated even if it’s poorly.

Cooperated is a strong word for MMR...

[T-Bone]

I mean, we might. That's not off the table for everyone yet.

[T-Bone]

Speedrun Mathblade elimination challenge

[T-Bone]

In the meantime, I'd like to hear from anyone who thinks there's a logical explanation for MMR to have botched their claim as badly as they have as scum. Their play seems actively self-destructive as a scum play and I would love to hear reasons that's not the case.

Botching a claim isn't necessarily alignment indicative. Town players can mess that up. I don't think the botch is even the important part here. This slot has a mechanically guilty on another slot and doesn't want to push it and has actively tried to avoid talking about it for like a week. Talking to you is the first time MMR has given any sort of sustained information about the claim.

[T-Bone]

The way they've botched their claim here makes me find it hard to see them as scum. They weren't hugely likely to be eliminated, and their actions have explicitly made them a lot more likely to be eliminated.

Another way of putting it: why did they claim at all? What drove them to claim?

Because I can think of reasons involving MMR being town. I can't think of reasons involving MMR being scum.

For me, that it has taken so long for MMR to clarify or engage about the claim is what makes me think this was a fakeclaim gone wrong rather than a botched claim. No, I don't know why they made this claim. Maybe it was supposed to be a fake reaction test? I don't know but I don't think that's important.

I really want to believe the claim honestly. I just can't get over what they've done since.

[T-Bone]

Also, to those who scumread mastina, show me one game in the past five years where she spammed in the exact manner she does in this game, okay?

Already did.

You ignored it. Don’t have time to grab it again.

Probably gonna move my vote to MMR today since that’s where everyone is going but I think we’re eliminating the wrong scum.

I'm open to eliminating PPF instead still.

[T-Bone]

mastina explained that in her big post. Not her fault people tend to skim them.

Pardon me for not reading everything mastina has written in this game, but I value actually having an enjoyable experience when I play these games.

Good move tbh

[T-Bone]

There was a stretch right before this post that was endless to scroll through on my phone where I started to doubt my scumread because I agreed with them...but I might be being manipulated there.

[T-Bone]

Oh wow I cannot believe 'MMR!scum felt desperate' is a real thing someone said on day 2 what???

Thanks, DDS for doing God's work.

[T-Bone]

UNVOTE:

I dunno, suddenly doubting this.

[T-Bone]

I've been lightly skimming, and this seems to be the right play simply because MMR's claim actively conflicts with both mastina and PPF?

It doesn't.
It only conflicts with mastina.
-Rubella

You're Loyal and your action didn't work on PPF

What reasonable explanation do you think makes PPF potentially not scum?

We could've been blocked or PPF could be Ascetic Town.
-Rubella

PPF has already claimed not ascetic unless I'm misremembering
You're not a sensible roleblock target when there are already powerful claimed PRs, and even if you were, that explanation should be much less likely than 'the Loyal part of my role worked as intended'

PPF has already claimed not ascetic unless I'm misremembering
You're not a sensible roleblock target when there are already powerful claimed PRs, and even if you were, that explanation should be much less likely than 'the Loyal part of my role worked as intended'

I see.
The TR on PPF was only testing reactions.
I thought that it was obvious that I wouldn't TR a slot just from their response.
-Rubella

And I don't TR them anymore.
-Rubella

DDS, what is your read on Toog?
Something about them voting Math and then instantly unvoting when asked if it was serious, feels somewhat off.
-Rubella

When I read this exchange and try to put myself in Rubella shoes, I see someone changing their mind on something. I can't see this as a scum intentional pivot. It just wouldn't be effective enough under normal circumstances.

This is the behavior that is pinging me. It's like there is regret that the claim was made and slot would prefer not to talk about it and that we not talk about it.

I'm not here to discuss claims. What else would people like from our slot?
~Mumps

Considering the level to which your slots claim has causes trouble in this game, I'm not satisfied with this.

Please clearly full claim. I'm happy to discuss things afterwards.

Like here is this exact thing from a different member of the hydra.

[T-Bone]

DDS, what is your read on Toog?
Something about them voting Math and then instantly unvoting when asked if it was serious, feels somewhat off.
-Rubella

It was a joke in response to T-Bone

VOTE: PPF

I think the mastina voters should move here.

Can confirm since the previous post was literally me saying Speedrun Mathblade lim

[T-Bone]

Like here is this exact thing from a different member of the hydra.

Fwiw these were both me, Klick

It was referring to MMR not you

[T-Bone]

This is the behavior that is pinging me. It's like there is regret that the claim was made and slot would prefer not to talk about it and that we not talk about it.

I'm not here to discuss claims. What else would people like from our slot?
~Mumps

Considering the level to which your slots claim has causes trouble in this game, I'm not satisfied with this.

Please clearly full claim. I'm happy to discuss things afterwards.

Like here is this exact thing from a different member of the hydra.

Ohhhh I see what you mean
You're saying there's a consistent interest from multiple MMR heads to not discuss their claim

I can see why that'd be convenient to do as scum but I can also see them not wanting to discuss it as town

(I do really still want them to be clear though and my interest in diving deeper into their alignment diminishes quite a bit if they're not willing to do that)

Yes that's what I was saying.

[T-Bone]

Just to be clear: does anyone think Mastina/MMR could both be their claimed roles? I don't.

Yeah. Roles aren't alignment indicative.

[T-Bone]

Just to be clear: does anyone think Mastina/MMR could both be their claimed roles? I don't.

I don't either. I'm inclined to believe mastina more because she gave more info, was consistent about it, and did it first, but there's no way both of their roles exist as claimed.

Ok but why would MMR, as scum, fakeclaim the same role as someone else, forcing them into a 1v1? Surely they would claim a different role?

As a few people have pointed out...they could have simply botched their fakeclaim.

[T-Bone]

I'm a beacon of light always but that's besides the point.

[T-Bone]

I'm not saying DDS is cleared by any means but they can only be on one scum team so at the very least they are less likely to be scum than the average player.

[T-Bone]

I'm not saying Furtive is scum by any means but they can only be lunar or solar scum so at the very least they are more likely to be scum than the average player :p

[T-Bone]

That was quality comedy you should be ashamed

[T-Bone]

Used it on the wrong player bruh

[T-Bone]

I'm willing to wait for replacements to at least acknowledge them before we end the day.

[T-Bone]

Intent to hammer, but obviously just waiting it out to make everyone's lives easier (including Meg's, hopefully).

[T-Bone]

Yeah which is why I have been advocating for waiting replacements and not hammering.

[T-Bone]

It's my hammer now I've called dibs, no one else gets to lolhammer

[T-Bone]

I got a message overnight that someone tried to burn me and failed. Sucks to suck Solar scum.

[T-Bone]

I can also believe that solars tried to kill mueh.

Wait, why do you believe that?

[T-Bone]

Did you look at MMR’s flip?

They get vanilla on scum

If they checked you and got vanilla it explains their play.

They didn't.

Vanilla mostly likely matches quite a few slots here. Vanilla only would say it's possible to be scum.

They however, got a role that directly fucks them over. Right reads. Powerful role.

Eliminate immediately.

~Titus

What are you doing? Like, we have the information that MMR gets the result "vanilla" when targeting scum. It was known you had claimed not vanilla already. It's not a stretch of the imagination for us to believe that MMR targeted you looking to check your PR and got "vanilla" as a result.

You can claim that MMR was lying or something but you cannot pretend we don't have this information and shouldn't make this inference.

[T-Bone]

There’s no reason scum can’t have other factional abilities.

Possible yes, but other factional abilities are not guaranteed to even exist unlike the factional kill. We don't know what's in the [redacted] part of the role PM

Probably partners and the link to the PT.

[T-Bone]

I would shoot T-Bone

Was it you who tried??

Come at the King, best not miss.

[T-Bone]

There’s no reason scum can’t have other factional abilities.

Possible yes, but other factional abilities are not guaranteed to even exist unlike the factional kill. We don't know what's in the [redacted] part of the role PM

Probably partners and the link to the PT.

And factional abilities, because we know from the OP mod posts that factional abilities are a secret.

Good catch, thanks

[T-Bone]

I got a message overnight that someone tried to burn me and failed. Sucks to suck Solar scum.

That makes no sense

Doesn’t explain the lack of kill on Meuh.

@RR who did you protect last night?

Why do you think there was a kill on Meuh?

[T-Bone]

Oh I see answered in next post

[T-Bone]

Can you elaborate why you are surprised by either of those choices?

[T-Bone]

Can you elaborate why you are surprised by either of those choices?

Why would scum “burn” you over a cop or day vig?
Why would RR protect you over a cop or a day vig?

I'm asking Toog why they think this. Asking why unknown players would do something is a pretty unproductive response.

[T-Bone]

I recognized I was perhaps wrong and wanted to reframe my mindset

Maybe look at what I'm saying today instead of focusing on what I did before. I regret it.

I don't want to turn this into a meme because I keep using this phrase...but can you elaborate what you regret about it? (unless it's because of how heated posting got yesterday at one point in which case don't worry about it)

[T-Bone]

There's very much a part of me that thinks MMR thought PPF was other-scum, possibly because of their role results, and that is the simplest explanation for the botched claim in my mind. Meaning we should resolve that slot one way or another.

[T-Bone]

@MMR why would you call the player who’s suggesting you botched your fakeclaim “a beacon of light?

And why bother mentioning the Mastina/Fire thing unless you have an actual opinion about it?

The first thing is that T-Bone is displaying a Town mindset. He is making observations and working from there.
The second thing was because Math wanted a summary and I decided that he needed to know mastina's request.
-Rubella

This is seriously probably the most cringeworthy post in the entire game.

T-Bone: MMR is probably scum due to botched fakeclaim.
MMR: T-Bone is a “beacon of light” for correctly calling us out on our bs. lololol

???

[T-Bone]

Unwnd has died. Their role was

Spoiler:

Vanilla Townie

Now with 13 alive, it takes 7 to eliminate.

Shocked by this.

Why didn’t he even try to solve?

Unwnd was clearly trying to solve for several phases what??

[T-Bone]

Wait if unwnd was VT.... Meuh has explaining to do

No she doesn’t.

VTs have an alignment according to her claim

Ummm what?

[T-Bone]

Oh wow I was right. Scum Vig anyone? Could explain early claim, no death and bad kill?

R u high or what

As much as I would love Math scum, he'd mod confirmed not Lunar so he'd have to be solar. A solar vig would be pretty stacked imo unless they had no nk and this is largely nightless (moonlogic).

Solar has a burn action but no evidence of a straight up kill atm

[T-Bone]

So lemme get this straight. You think we’re Solar scum and Dangle is Lunar scum defending us. Makes perfect sense.

Correct. Yes. No facepalm required.

You can't be serious.

[T-Bone]

I'll be honest I've been wanting to naked vote Mathblade for some time but all that is stopping me is that unlike most players we know he can only be aligned with one scum team.

[T-Bone]

Before you @me you didn't resolve mastina/PPF with your shot and have been posting nonsense since (see#4942 as my latest example). So yeah, you've dropped pretty heavily on my town aligned playerlist.

[T-Bone]

I'm not willing to go through the Math rabbit hole yet since again, he can only be on one scum team, but I want it to be known where I stand there.

[T-Bone]

Also I've given you all cover if some of you are also reconsidering your town read. You're welcome!

[T-Bone]

Why? Just from a domino effect I think it kinda has to be you or rr for a cop?

I think ours and maths' slot annoyingly should basically never be limmed. We are perpetually the 'other' scum teams issue.

It also makes rr's target on not us a bit weird, but *shrug*

I don't quite agee with this. If we get a scumteam to where we think one person remains all bets are off.

[T-Bone]

Y'all are making me want to sheep Furtive tbh. I cannot believe what I'm reading.

[T-Bone]

Except it’s not proven MMR lied.

It’s proven MMR is scum.

MMR did that play for a reason.

Thank you!

[T-Bone]

im stupid but isn't the fact that MMR faked a guilty on PPF just mean they are spewed town. What am i missing math

We don't know if it was faked or not.

[T-Bone]

Fire, the voice of reason here. In what world did MMR NOT lie and fake a guilty on us? Do I need to keep posting the role flip?

I’m running out of brain cells because they keep spontaneously combusting at the sheer mind boggling bat shit insane nonsence I keep reading. Make it stop.

You're intentionally misreading it at this point. Make it stop.

[T-Bone]

I'm done. If you're going to intentionally misread a role and then get upset at the rest of us for not agreeing to misread it in the same way you are then you have to be scum upset they were caught. That you cannot even fathom while people would read it the correct way is beyond my comprehension. It's incredibly frustrating to deal with. I would understand if you were arguing that "I'm town so they must have been lying" but trying to quote the role as evidence when the rest of us can clearly see what it says and interpret it differently (if not correctly) is just so frustrating.

Maybe you lack perspective and that's why you keep doing this I dunno, but I'm at the point where it just looks intentional.

VOTE: PPF

[T-Bone]

Like we don't know all the answers about MMR'S role or play.

But you asserting that you do above all else is what I take issue with. It reeks of scum being caught for the wrong reasons. What MMR did is not cut and dry. That you are trying to forcibly shut down that conversation makes me think that you're not actually town. Town doesn't stifle conversation,even if it's going in a direction they don't like.

[T-Bone]

im stupid but isn't the fact that MMR faked a guilty on PPF just mean they are spewed town. What am i missing math

We don't know if it was faked or not.

Fire, the voice of reason here. In what world did MMR NOT lie and fake a guilty on us? Do I need to keep posting the role flip?

I’m running out of brain cells because they keep spontaneously combusting at the sheer mind boggling bat shit insane nonsence I keep reading. Make it stop.

Like right here is why I am so frustrated. It is a fact that we don't know if MMR faked their claim or not. We just don't know. It's okay that we don't know. But to immediately respond after me to try and shut me down is very antagonistic from a slot the claims to town read me.

[T-Bone]

Sorry for 5 posting but I gotta get my thoughts out.

There are basically two plausible explanations for what MMR did (with some room for nuance like Scarf suggested). Either A) MMR fucked up or B) MMR got a guilty result and fucked up.

Why are you so antagonistic to the idea that we as some members of the town discuss the second possibility? No one was even pushing that second possibility that hard, but it's information we have and information we should explore. As for my part, I don't know if FB believes that MMR fakeclaimed based on play or genuinely doesn't realize (or consider) that they could have been making a real claim. Hence why I quoted him. After I did, now I know he has that information to use or not use as he pleases and my job would have been done.

You are in the camp where most likely you can only be aligned with one scumteam so you weren't even in that much danger. But the repeated attempts to shut down conversation is what changed it for me.

[T-Bone]

As for my thoughts on it: I think a second factional ability is definitely possible, but not particularly likely to have been used N1 in conjunction with a kill/janitor. So I agree with PPF that MMR likely didn't have a guilty on them.

A janitor doesn't have to be factional, we just know it's not what MMR had.

[T-Bone]

I don't think we need to be bogged down in setup spec beyond an understanding that if it hasn't been mod confirmed we can't assume we know everything.

[T-Bone]

As for my thoughts on it: I think a second factional ability is definitely possible, but not particularly likely to have been used N1 in conjunction with a kill/janitor. So I agree with PPF that MMR likely didn't have a guilty on them.

A janitor doesn't have to be factional, we just know it's not what MMR had.

We don’t know that.

Could be in the redacted section.

I'm I was thinking personal abilities. We know at least that the part of the role that was revealed isn't a janitor action.

[T-Bone]

I'm done. If you're going to intentionally misread a role and then get upset at the rest of us for not agreeing to misread it in the same way you are then you have to be scum upset they were caught. That you cannot even fathom while people would read it the correct way is beyond my comprehension. It's incredibly frustrating to deal with. I would understand if you were arguing that "I'm town so they must have been lying" but trying to quote the role as evidence when the rest of us can clearly see what it says and interpret it differently (if not correctly) is just so frustrating.

Maybe you lack perspective and that's why you keep doing this I dunno, but I'm at the point where it just looks intentional.

VOTE: PPF

I think Nancy is not understanding the mech argument people are making against her slot, and she admits to struggling with mech. I don't actually think she's intentionally ignoring it

Fine.

UNVOTE: PPF

[T-Bone]

Enchant is town so not a great counter wagon if you think Furtive is town.

[T-Bone]

Based on what we know (or at least think we know) how many slots remain do we think is plausible could be either scum team? (As opposed to DDS/Math who we know can only be on one team, and a slot like PPF who is probably only on one team)

[T-Bone]

Please note I'm using the word can't a little loosely for non Math/DDS slots.

Can't be solar
DDS
Rat
T-Bone
(I understand those two are based on my knowledge of being saved by Rat from what I believe was the solar killing/arsonist action, your mileage may vary)

Can't be lunar
Math
PPF

I thought by hook or crook we had more slots we could say aren't on one team??

[T-Bone]

New reads list, haven't sorted this out in a bit. I am left with a PoE of like 5 when I remove town reads and one-scum immunities. I am not happy with this and it would make me feel better if those with one scum immunities were just on the other scumteam. If a town read is wrong then it's probably DDS or FB.

Spoiler: Reads 2.0

Town lean
Radical Rat
Enchant
Firebringer
DDS
Scarf

One-Scum but null
Math
PPF

Null lean
Furtive
CSF

Scum/PoE lean
Toog
Ydrasse
Meuh

[T-Bone]

My preference is finally resolving Mastina/meuh tbh. But absent that Toog is my gut instinct.

[T-Bone]

Big scum backtrack

[T-Bone]

I had town read his predecessor and he hasn't done anything to change it. FB is just here, it's whatever.

[T-Bone]

My preference is finally resolving Mastina/meuh tbh. But absent that Toog is my gut instinct.

Why does mastina slot need to be resolved?

Because it is still the scummiest slot in the game and meuh hasn't done anything for me that would change it. I want meuh eliminated because I think meuh inherited a scum slot.

[T-Bone]

My preference is finally resolving Mastina/meuh tbh. But absent that Toog is my gut instinct.

Why does mastina slot need to be resolved?

Because it is still the scummiest slot in the game and meuh hasn't done anything for me that would change it. I want meuh eliminated because I think meuh inherited a scum slot.

I'm claiming to have seen someone (likely Scum) target Meuh last night. Does that change the read?

No, because your predecessor claimed that you couldn't do anything to confirm that slot after faking saying they could.

[T-Bone]

I'll be honest I don't know what your slot can and cannot do.

[T-Bone]

I'll be honest I don't know what your slot can and cannot do.

Spoiler: Some posts that might explain it

I have role-related knowledge that someone either tried to kill Meuh

or

used a negative utility action on her during the “Noon” phase

What does it mean to role watch? Do you learn what roles visit them?

I only learn if they were targeted by a kill or some negative ability. Unlike a normal watcher, I don’t know who targeted them

I have role-related knowledge that someone either tried to kill Meuh

or

used a negative utility action on her during the “Noon” phase

I cannot guarantee that it was scum that targeted her. albeit I agree it was likely scum, since I don’t see why town would mess with a claimed invest

Someone else tried to do "something negative - either kill or some other negative effect" to meuh -- i don't see why town would do this

Btw i asked mega what negative effect meant, if it included things like roleblocked and redirected and she wouldn't elaborate

Which makes me think negative effect refers to factional abilities

Thanks.

I know that speaking for someone else is difficult, but do you have any idea why your predecessor claimed their role only worked on meuh's slot and another slot that was either PPF or Math (I forget which)?

[T-Bone]

VOTE: Toog

Although I almost voted Furtive based on 5378 I still might

[T-Bone]

hey porkens whats up.

I have a result: I checked myself and found out im mafia

Called it

[T-Bone]

Mmm
I lied a bit cause I can actually see T-Bone with MathBlade.
Although It’s Hard to tell why MathBlade pushes Mastina the way they did as a wolf.
TBF I suppose it’s a multi ball and you can do that genuinely in a multi ball or at least from my experiences of a multi ball you can.
Hmm, who am I miss clearing and who am I reading correctly? That’s the question.

If it helps either I've been cleared by Rat or we're scum together.

[T-Bone]

Or maybe I clear Rat or we're scum together? I might have gotten that backwards.

[T-Bone]

That's fair.

[T-Bone]

I probably won't vote meuh tbh. She was targeted during Noon, so she's probably not Solar, and then she can act on Noons, and I'm currently thinking that means she can't be Lunar.

Second premise I already suggested yesterday doesn’t hold.

I acted at Dusk but am blessed by Sun God.

The first premise I don’t believe?

I am assuming recruits yes.

You should believe the first!! Fair to the second

However, if we're unable to cross off people as either not Lunar or not Solar based off of might actions alone, then... Is it just me or does town have so little power?

Or maybe it’s extremely consolidated in a place that scum can’t kill without risking losing.

I have no idea how Lunar kills. But I think Solar probably does arsons. With Professor not getting the NK we've seen no factional kills (unless Math's kill is factional)

[T-Bone]

I think Math is cleared though now that we know Prof wasn't a kill. So it's not worth entertaining. If I were to assume that people's actions were true, that takes Math, Rat (me), DDS, meuh, CSF, Prof out of the lim pool right now. Am I missing a claimed action somewhere?

[T-Bone]

Based on the above let me make some adjustments here...if I remove the sort of mech cleared and my town reads I'm left with three players I'd be willing to lim here. Though I need to decide if my townreads on Scarf and FB holds. I think they do but let me do more pondering.

Spoiler: Reads 3.0

Some Sort of Mech Thing
Rat
DDS
Math
Meuh
CSF

Kinda Mech
Prof

Town Lean
Enchant
FB
Scarf

The Rest
PPF
Toog
Ydrasse

Spoiler: Reads 2.0

Town lean
Radical Rat
Enchant
Firebringer
DDS
Scarf

One-Scum but null
Math
PPF

Null lean
Furtive
CSF

Scum/PoE lean
Toog
Ydrasse
Meuh

[T-Bone]

I think Math is cleared though now that we know Prof wasn't a kill. So it's not worth entertaining. If I were to assume that people's actions were true, that takes Math, Rat (me), DDS, meuh, CSF, Prof out of the lim pool right now. Am I missing a claimed action somewhere?

I don’t get how a good chunk of those are out of the lim pool.

Explain please.

You/DDS can only be one scum. Meuh/CSF are tied together for now. Rat is tied to me right now from my perspective. Prof was out of the game and returned, it could be a scum ability, but if the scum teams are recruiting instead of say, priming targets for arson related shenanigans, then at the very least prof had no opportunity to recruit.

[T-Bone]

*Prof had no opportunity to be recruited.

[T-Bone]

You don't have to agree with me. That's where I am at and why I am there.

[T-Bone]

I think Math is cleared though now that we know Prof wasn't a kill. So it's not worth entertaining. If I were to assume that people's actions were true, that takes Math, Rat (me), DDS, meuh, CSF, Prof out of the lim pool right now. Am I missing a claimed action somewhere?

Why did you put (me) in Rat without the “,”
Are you secretly trying to open wolf as partners with Rat?

Oh right I'm claiming scum with him that's the explanation!

[T-Bone]

VOTE: Prof

Spicy.

[T-Bone]

Could just be pressure or something but like instead of voting the dude trying to push the wolves where is the player you want to actually push. You gave wolf reads but haven’t been pushing them, start doing something.

Thanks, but instead of taking your condescending advice, I am also going to do what I've been doing.

[T-Bone]

You've already admitted you stopped reading the game while you were gone and it shows. I can't help you if you're not going to properly catch up. Like I have posted plenty why I think Rat is clear to me and you keep questioning it. If you want to think we are both lying that's fine. But that you don't even acknowledge the information that we've claimed independently tells me you're not someone I can trust to discuss the game with until you catch up. So instead of spending your time being condescending to everyone about how obviously right you are, catch up so you can start applying this "obviously right" nonsense with accurate and up to date game info at the very least.

[T-Bone]

Like #5583 and #5633 by you is clear evidence you have no idea what has happened since you left the game. That's fine there's a lot of reading to be done! Go do it please!

[T-Bone]

I think Math is cleared though now that we know Prof wasn't a kill. So it's not worth entertaining. If I were to assume that people's actions were true, that takes Math, Rat (me), DDS, meuh, CSF, Prof out of the lim pool right now. Am I missing a claimed action somewhere?

Why did you put (me) in Rat without the “,”
Are you secretly trying to open wolf as partners with Rat?

Like are you guys Masons?

Cause you say this post is to do with me not reading so enlighten me what claim/Mech you have here.

Rat claimed to have protected me Night 2 (idr what the phase is called, noon 1 I think?) and I also received a message from the mod that I was targeted for a burn but it failed.

Which clears Rat specifically to me since his claim is backed up to me by the mod message I received.

I'm not asking you or anyone to believe either of us, as you can only weigh our claims and our game play.

But I am asking you to recognize where I am coming from at least, regardless of whether you believe me or not. I shouldn't have to stop and explain this. Compare your post to how Math reacted to me (saying he doesn't agree with my conclusions for x, y, and z reasons) where it shows me that Math has absorbed the game, and you haven't. Which again, you were out of the game for a long time. I don't expect you to know everything. But if you don't know something, just ask! Instead of being condescending about posts and showing that you lack some key information. This act you put up of acting like you know everything makes you look like a fool. It's a great anti-town tactic, so if you're not town by all means continue to do it.

[T-Bone]

I'm not asking you or anyone to agree with me. I'm just asking you to recognize where I am coming from so we can work things out this phase. I'm saying that as far as I know 5 players can only be aligned with one scum team based on claims and mod given information. That's why I listed them as such. I think it is more valuable to look at the slots who don't have this quality. I'm not demanding anyone do the same, by all means if you think any of those 5 players are scum do something about it. I still think meuh is scum and would vote there if we got to that point. Absent that, this is what I am personally working with. It's not a declaration that you have to do anything. I'm just looking for some reading comprehension is all.

Based on the above let me make some adjustments here...if I remove the sort of mech cleared and my town reads I'm left with three players I'd be willing to lim here. Though I need to decide if my townreads on Scarf and FB holds. I think they do but let me do more pondering.

Spoiler: Reads 3.0

Some Sort of Mech Thing
Rat
DDS
Math
Meuh
CSF

Kinda Mech
Prof

Town Lean
Enchant
FB
Scarf

The Rest
PPF
Toog
Ydrasse

Spoiler: Reads 2.0

Town lean
Radical Rat
Enchant
Firebringer
DDS
Scarf

One-Scum but null
Math
PPF

Null lean
Furtive
CSF

Scum/PoE lean
Toog
Ydrasse
Meuh

[T-Bone]

Do you think that the slots I am most considering are all town?

[T-Bone]

And my posts aren't addressed to you, I think your disagreement is reasonable!

[T-Bone]

I mean please notice that there are 7 players who could be either alignment, but I town read three of them! I consider it a feature that the remaining slots I neither townread them or have reason to think they aren't on one of the scumteams.

[T-Bone]

I don't know where I said that I think scum are winning? I think with 13 players alive we still have plenty of game to go. I don't think we're anywhere close to MiLo personally.

[T-Bone]

I don't know? I don't think either of those posts have anything to do with each other.

I don't know where I said that I think scum are winning? I think with 13 players alive we still have plenty of game to go. I don't think we're anywhere close to MiLo personally.

Might have confused you with the professor but I don’t see up winning right now based on what is present.

Yeah he made a bunch of posts about scum winning and furtive being right about town throwing

[T-Bone]

I don't think they are scum with the meuh slot, as I noted when Yume had brought Mastina to E-1 on Day 1. My primary suspicion was that Yume was trying to pocket Mastina.

[T-Bone]

I said I would if the votes are there.

[T-Bone]

Mastina is probably scum but it's not worth it

this is like the wolfiest shit I've ever read

Have you ever played with Mastina? Keep reading, it's a prophetic statement!