BIOCHEMISTRY - game over, finally, it's only been 5 months

[MagnaofIllusion]

So I’ll be catching up over the course of the day but wanted to drop some thoughts …

I brought up in our Neighborhood pre-game I think a Mass-claim of neighborhoods is very Pro-Town. I know from my phone skimming that there has been some discussion. I will say I have a scum read on Vecna pre-game for his ludicrous stance in our Neighborhood that mass-claiming of Neighborhood make-up is Pro-Scum.

I’ll also say that anyone who did any research into Organic and Inorganic Chemistry and Anti’s recent UPick Science game should understand that odds are overwhelimingly favorable that one of the four Neighborhoods is All-Town and anyone who hasn’t shown up in a Neighborhood by now is probably Mafia not wanting to have to fake being Town on two fronts.

My neighborhood has four members so far – myself, Vecna, Creature and Marquis.

VOTE: Vecna

Good place to start while I get read up …

[MagnaofIllusion]

Neighborhood Tracking

MoI, Vecna, Creature, Marquis
Firebringer, ???, ???, ???
VoT, Rem and Ram, BigYoshiFan, Vifam

That also leaves Spiffeh, SAD, Majiffy, Sakura, Gorkington, Kuror0 (who?), beeboy, and Stephen Q unslotted.

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Here’s a first for me – I’m reading Rick and Andrea as Town for Firebringer’s contributions. Especially the call for the mass Neighborhood claim at 59. And for 130 which shows the level of insight I would expect from him as a Defcon Spiffeh partner.

Also slotting Gorkington as an early Town read. Gork looks like Town Gork from Children’s and Defcon and that’s good enough for the moment.

Early Scum read on SAD for what I see as forcing casualness. Defcon SAD lashed out at people scum-reading him Day 1. Thus the “I get better reads when scum-read” rings very false. And the scum read on Yume at 275 smells like day old rotting fish. The R-Twins get some townpoints for 311 pointing this very thing out.

Oh and then we get 367. Cool. Makes my decision easy …

VOTE: SAD

Not a fan of Spiffeh’s early content. Am in agreement with his SAD read obviously. Will need to look back at Defcon versus Thing to see if what I am seeing is potentially alignment indicative.

And Vecna’s “Look at my cool schtick” posting stance doesn’t change my initial Neighborhood read as scum too.

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i know you were on other side of sad in defcon, but finding his opinions disagreeable/his tone weird isnt really all that compelling to me.

Gork talk to me about SAD. I don’t think his play here is anything like Defcon where all of us were Town. There he was much more reactive to suspicion / pressure. Here I sense he’s putting on a “Ho hum, look how good I am” mask. I’d go so far as to say he’s being much less vitriolic and much more jokey agreeable here …

and the people who act like it is and toot their horn when they were right about reads are still bad because they couldnt work with town to get shit done.

Are you saying SAD is a Radiant Cowbell alt (or vice versa)?

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Honestly I encourage using neighborhoods in this set up. There are 17 players, 4 scum, 4 neighborhoods. There is most likely one scum in each hood. It is easier to scum hunt in a pool of 4/5 than in a pool of 17.

Yeah this is probably Titus scum. Any cursory investigation into Anti’s Mod meta shows he subverts this pretty much every time. One of Inorganic / Organic had three separate Town Neighborizors with no scum Neighborizors. UPIck Science had an all Town three person Neighborhood in a 13 player Mini.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI's 593 reads bad so many red flags for starters why is he outting the neighborhood and second of all why is he voting someone before a catchup on such a weak logic as having a differing opinion and generalizing scum in such a broad way ("I think every scum wouldn't wanna use the neighborhood, and anyone who opposes it must be scum!")

Yeah seeing this after my catchup post makes me happy. Vote is well placed.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI's 593 reads bad so many red flags for starters why is he outting the neighborhood and

second of all why is he voting someone before a catchup on such a weak logic as having a differing opinion

and generalizing scum in such a broad way ("I think every scum wouldn't wanna use the neighborhood, and anyone who opposes it must be scum!")

And now that I have more time to post about this … what we have here I see as a classic scummy pre-emptive post.

Let’s start with the inference that outing Neighborhoods is scummy. It’s not. It is rock solid Town play. Inorganic and Organic Chemistry and Anti’ UPick Science clearly show that Anti is not going to evenly spread the 4 scum between them evenly. So one of the Neighborhoods is going to be All Town. Secondarily keeping the make-up of the Neighborhoods “secret” is not going to keep information from scum regardless of the distribution. Scum are going to know all the Town players posting in Neighborhoods even if they choose to not post (like SAD). So giving Town a full slate of knowledge about the Neighborhood makeup and who isn’t posting there is evens the playing field.

Next let’s move to the point that scum are going to avoid the Neighborhoods – damn straight if anyone is they will. There is no Pro-Town motivation for not posting and sorting in the Neighborhoods. Period. So anyone not posting there is scum who want to minimize the amount of threads they can be scum-hunted in or VI Town.

Lastly note the bolded above – SAD as Town should have no clue the depth of the discussion in the PT between myself and Vecna to judge the level of the logic of why I am finding Vecna scummy. Vecna’s stance in the PT boiled down to two points ..

1. It will “keep scum in the dark”.
2. There might be some super sekrit mechanics that mass-claiming would help scum to activate.

Point 1 is clearly wrong for all the reasons I posted above. Point 2 doesn’t align at all with how Anti has shown to use mechanics in Inorganic Chemstry, Organic Chemsitry or UPIck Science. And I explained in some depth in the PT about how I looked (or played in) over those games and how they showed that a Neighborhood claim was Pro-Town.

Vecna’s reasons for opposing the mass-claim don’t stand up to scrutiny. Thus he’s scummy.

[MagnaofIllusion]

the hood is me, bee, SAD, kuror0 and spiffy unless there's some mysterious player in there.

Neighborhood Make-Up

MoI, Vecna, Creature, Marquis
Firebringer, (imputed to include Majiffy, Stephen Q, Gorkington)
VoT, Rem and Ram, BigYoshiFan, Vifam
Sakura, Beeboy, SAD, kuror0, Spiffeh

@Spiffeh

– read 714 and tell me that isn’t Town Gork …

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How many people would support a vecna wagon right now?

-Rick

Who has two thumbs and would do this? This guy!

@Rick

– had Majiffy posted in the PT before today?

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I want to sort RA, Beeboy, Sakura, Vecna, MOI.

Ok .. what are you doing to accomplish this (with me at least)?

@MOI- 357 was ThinkBig

Your point? Finding that speculation scummy is completely divorced from the head that posted it.

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iuno.
i kind of feel like im falling into a dumb trap that ive been falling into a lot recently of defending people against pushes i feel are too strong while not actually being all that great of a resource on the target in question.
like, i think back to defcon and it occurs to me that im probably just hipshooting my feelings about how lynchable he is as town based on what happened there.

like, here it feels like he looks at a post, feels like its scummy and then decides on reasoning to justify that feeling and that process of deciding on reasoning doesnt really line up with where the feeling is actually coming from.
but if i reach back to my memory of his towngame in defcon, then i honestly just remember him being abrasive and not agreeing with his reasoning for reads at all.

Probably a good idea to refresh on Defcon for him I don’t see the abrasiveness here. Much more “look how cool and collected I am” posting. But let me also point out 664 – that post is a perfect example of both “forcing casualness” and playing to the current site meta of “Too scummy for scum”

Rem and Ram

– In light of Ali’s play in Spyro what do you think of 664?

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But let's be real is there ever a time when I didn't scumread MoI we are just not compatible people at least in the way we approach the game so this might be one of his crazy thinking style.

This calls for a live shot of SAD when you posted this ..

But anyway I'm not in the mood to get dragged with you in a back and forth in yet another game b/c it's such a waste of time always so keep on keeping on buddy.

Pedit @MoI

This post is from the standpoint that he knows I am Town and is trying to leverage Defcon where we mutually scum-read each other as Town to discredit my read on him and thus scummy.

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Also i will refrain from posting in the hood during the day for the most part, unless i have strong reasons to townread everyone there.

What Town motivation do you have to not post and hunt for scum in your PT?

[MagnaofIllusion]

beeboy is a good candidate for scum

So Spiffeh ... what do you think of Vecna / Majiffy / Sakura as of now?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Oh! You are asking me
Well usually if the "too scummy to be scum" gambit is being played, it's coming from scum cause town has no reason to play that gambit
-Ali

Are you voting SAD? If not you should totally be voting SAD then …

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@MOI yes to your question

Ok thanks whichever head this is …

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[MagnaofIllusion]

But MoI! I want Creature AND SAD. ;~;
Can I get both?

Unless you have the ability to make it a Double Day you can't in a single Day.

And SAD is generally a much harder lynch than Creature so better to get the harder one done while we have as many Town alive as possible. Otherwise it will be easier for SAD's partners to divert his eating rope in later days.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Lol @MoI ignoring my post that's how you can tell he's bsing.

This post is from the standpoint that he knows I am Town and is trying to leverage Defcon where we mutually scum-read each other as Town to discredit my read on him and thus scummy.

MoI if we are both town this game again you must agree to never scumread me again in any game b/c you clearly can't read me.

No, you are not going to respond sarcastically to this, or say I am scum for saying it. You will say you agree. And if you don't I will skip every post you make this game, I am not planning on getting into an argument with you every game we're in.

Nah. I mean you are pretty obv-scum at this point so no point in engaging when your first line is "If we are both Town". All that post was meant to was to posture as if you are Town. The fact that you are now trying to discredit my read says all that needs to be said ... scum scrambling to find any way to shut down the pressure on you.

@Everyone

- Note how this post shows that his earlier "I get the best reads when scumread" was forced casual posting. If he really felt that as Town he'd not worry about me pursuing a scum read on him. But he's clearly worried since he's doing everything he can to discredit me while not addressing the reasons. More SAD votes would be very appropriate and much appreciated!

[MagnaofIllusion]

But anyway I never even called MoI terrible, and if I did, that's mb. He's in the garbage tier at reading, which is far under terrible. Terrible isn't necessarily a bad thing, it could mean you're having a one off game or can't get in the zone or you're scum. The other tier is when I have large experience with you that you show no signs at improving and continue to be bad.

Like I'm sorry I correctly scumread the people pushing me and now you're trying to paint me as some lunatic who is just lashing out vs anybody who scumreads me?

Let’s play a game – see if you can spot the huge, glaring discontinuity in these posts.

Did you spot it? It’s pretty cut and dried.

The first post basically says I’m a garbage player which inherently means I am Town with bad reads. That can’t be Town him lashing out at scum because … then it isn’t a garbage read and is scum pushing a mislynch. So 849 is coming from the 100% perspective I am Town.

But a few posts later and I am scum suddenly.

Cognitive Dissonance at its finest …

[MagnaofIllusion]

what happened to ignoring people that dont matter?

Very, very good question ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

boop. see you monday.

I'm back catching up.

This is the very impressive ISO of kuror0.

Hey what are your reads?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also - VoT how are you trying to sort me? I don't see you posting anything my way directly except for a few posts that tangentially comment on my posts ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Gork the solution is to vote SAD scum ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

So back from an unplanned two days of real life hell .. catching up now ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

So I see in my absence the SAD wagon has melted away … if I end up dead tonight I absolutely want him dead ASAP. By the way -1249 is not how Town pushing on a scum read talks about said scumread …

VOTE: Vecna

Moving on to my next scum read since the SAD wagon has fallen away. You can see more of my problems below and I’ve already explained why his responses in the Neighborhood feel like scum forcing a reason to fight a Mass Neighborhood claim (which 99.9995% was so Pro Town it wasn’t funny).

Maquis personally I want to lynch for posts like 899 and . Way too much sad sack active lurking for my taste. Also comments from the Neighborhood don’t sit right with me.

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Also sort of scum reading beeboy and sakura but due to low content(look whos talking) it is hard for me to get a stronger read

Please explain further what you mean by “low content” for these two and why that means scum ..

Nevermind ... you replaced out ...

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MoI's town

Here’s a fun exercise … tell me why you are Town reading me.

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I've never seen his scum game and I don't think that's anything that would be out of the realm of possibility for him to fake as scum.

I think people are writing him off as town way too early. There's a noticeable lack of presence here that I haven't experienced in any other town games of his. He voted for Creature awhile ago and I still don't know why. I don't really recall him ever making a vote that wasn't backed up by some line of thinking.

I don't think this is a smoking gun or that this is necessarily reason to scum read him. If he's town I'm sure it will become extremely obvious at some point when he gets his head in the game.

The lack of “presence” I don’t see how you get that to this stage. This is a Large game and Gork is as active and engaged as I saw him in both TV Characters and Defcon. Not seeing his scum game really is a non-starter for me .. why haven’t you gone to do some looking to see what scum Gork tends to do?

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Second, MoI your interaction with SAD helped me sort you.

How exactly did me pushing on SAD help clarify your read on me VoT?

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Oh let’s talk about Vecna …

Nonsensical defense post based on thing at all

This is scum decrediting right here. I can safely say that Firebringer would absolutely use his well known distates for Yume to help justify a push on her as scum partners for Town cred. So this is scum looking to find things to infer are scummy as opposed to processing information.

And yet to this point you have completely ignored my last post on the matter in our PT. Extrapolating your one game of the same moderator is no guarantee for this setup. And you just outted our entire neighbourhood without us giving you permission, OR you finishing the discussion, OR countering any of my valid concerns.

Let’s address the misrep first – “based on a single game” … clearly it was not since it is based on Inorganic and Organic Chemistry (you know … the direct prequels to this game) and UPick Science. Not sure why he’s specifically lie about that since both Marquis and Creature can confirm that information.

And then let’s address the “ignored my last post” point. That post was “hey, let’s not bring this discussion to the main thread” which I could care less about his preferences given I’m scum reading him for his reaction in the PT and want that information provided as widely as possible.

Lastly the “not finishing the discussion” point .. it was already finished the minute he stated “Oh no, scumz might have super sekrit abilities triggered by Neighborhood knowledge” stance. This is an semi-Open game with full knowledge to everyone that there are four Neighborhoods. Even if you disagree with my meta stance that there will be 1 Town only Neighborhood then you have to know that scum already know exactly who is in what Neighborhood. So floating a “Oh god scum could get sekrit powers” makes no sense since scum are going to know the make-up of the Neighborhoods regardless if they are evenly split or there is a Town Neighborhood. It is a completely illogical stance on its face and that Vecna used it as an excuse to oppose a mass Neighborhood claim shows to scum motivation to keep Town in the dark as much as possible.

VOTE: Steven Quartz

This vote stays until a fuck is given by this slot

Here is scum trying to pressure a known flaker slot as opposed to actively voting any of the players he claims are scum (not that at this point he’s had many scum reads … mostly OMGUS reads for people who suspect him and attempts to buddy Gork and Majiffy).

And what gave you the impression i was scumreading MOI for his actions? Just because i dont agree with his reasoning and actions, doesnt mean I think it comes from scum.

That fence must really, really be comfortable …

Majiffy I keep finding hard to read, and is my wildcard. I do like how hes responding to me mostly though, and this feels best in line with how id expect people to respond.

So keeping this in mind go back and look at Vecna’s progression on Majiffy. He starts with a “dislike this player” approach but quickly shifts to “Haha, Imma buddy this as I think feeding his ego is the way to go”. When that doesn’t work we get the above where he can go either way depending on public sentiment.

How can you have a scumread on quartz?

So he’s flat out admitting he’s idling his vote on a slot he doesn’t think is scum for policy reasons that everyone and his brother say will not work …

Scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

At this point given the PT discussion I don’t think Creature and Vecna are partners. The level of scum theatre they would be having to spin there is pretty high. Creature is basically asking Vecna to defend him from the current wagon and Vecna has not directed Creature to vote two targets (TitusHydra and Creature) “for reactions”.

Vecna’s explosion is basically “Oh crap, better throw at lot of empty rhetoric and buzzwording at the case and hope if fools people”. Happy with my vote. I mean the fact that he is selling the following conflicting narratives should sell people on that wagon –

1. MoI has been tunneling me since pre-game from my PT reaction.
2. I caught MoI in a tricksy trap of my trolling play (claim in 1512) whiile he indicated in the Neighborhood before I made the case on him was an act (PT post 27 on Feb 27th).

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Following up with FB about your QT notions to suss out a read on me.

viewtopic.php?p=8919503#p8919503

That is what made you read me as Town? That’s all?

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Town or scum!Alisae: "Sure, one of us must be scum, let's find out now"
Town!Alisae: "No, maybe we should consider rereading you"
Scum!Alisae: "Oh no, Creature is scum gambiting"

Fails to account for Town!RR going “Well this is a dumb shit pointless move regardless of alignment”. But given I don’t think you are Vecna’s Bro I’m slotting this as probably “Inspirational Mafia” style Creature doing stupid crap as Town.

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And how is this discrediting, seeing how none of that info was provided in the sentence? The defence was effectively using meta that most people here are not going to be aware of, without explaining it. Being called out on it was completely justified, you brownnosing him to try and discredit me is kinda sad.

Lol. I mean this can be summed up as “I’m not discrediting you are OMGUS”. Firebringer’s dislike for Yume is well known. From Stephen Universe alone myself, Titus and Creature all witnessed it directly and I doubt that is the only game where it has reared it’s head, as it were. So if you didn’t know as you are claiming why didn’t you make an inquiry as to why Fire would say that? The answer is you are scum looking for things you think you can frame as suspect / scummy as opposed to actually looking for scum.

Ill rephrase what you said in the PT to counter this nonsense;
-You said it was based on a quick read of 2 threads.
-One that didnt use similair mechanics, and 1 that also used neighbourhoods pt.
-you stated you didnt read the third thread.

And this is a completely fabricated response. Here’s what I actually said in the open.

1. I looked at Inorganic Chemistry and Organic Chemstiry to look for elements of how Neighborhoods were handled.
2. I actually played in UPick Science.
3. In Inorganic Chemistry there were 3 Town Neighborizors and no Scum Neighborizors.
4. That I didn’t read Inorganic closely enough to see if people tried to lynch in the Neighborizors on the premise of “Town would not have three separate Neighborizors, one must be scum” as was used on the all-Town Neighborhood in UPick Science.

So the only part of your above that is even remotely correct is that I did a quick read on Inorganic and Organic Chemistry (the previous games) and that one didn’t use Neighbors at all (Organic).

The rest is fabricated garbage.

This is also false. I asked you what the advantage is to a massclaim for town, and I asked you why you wouldnt want to wait to discuss it with other people before just outting it. I indeed brought up points that the setup might rely on information regarding neighbourhoods, and that knowing what type of chemical compound someone is might help activate certain abilities. This makes sense in nature, since those particles do have chemical reactions when you mix some of them. You ignored the discussion and just pushed your own opinion through. But hey, everyone disagreeing with you must be scum, right? I almost hope now that this is indeed the case, and youre either caught scum or just proven how idiotic your stubbornness really is.

Oh look – handwaving. There is no Town reason not to out the Neighborhoods. You are trying to float that some other games you played on site that were not Antihero games somehow have relevance to how this game would be set-up. Antihero has shown a strong mod meta for using Neighborhoods / Neighborizors in a way that punishes “can’t all be Town” assumptions. Thus it is a reasonable and prudent stance that one of the Neighborhoods here is all Town and it is beneficial for all Town players to have this information up front early Day 1. It assures that scum who want to hide from having to fake being Town on two fronts can be called out for not participating /sorting their fellow Neighbors. As I said previous your “Oh god chemicals scum knowing who is in the neighborhood could be bad blah blah” garbage makes no sense and is just a fabricated stance to oppose getting Town this information.

Maybe you should actually read my posts before making up shit. Tell me, who did I claim is scum?

Also, seeing how you indicated earlier you know Yume's meta, tell me this; Does it lurk as scum? Because I have meta on my last game (code geass) that yume does lurk as scum. Everyone that was in that game can confirm. Either way its besides the point since it was a very obvious placeholder vote, which I even indicated it was.

Trying to claim I was trying to pressure a known site flaker or w/e is just more confbias nonsense.

I have read your posts ... that's where I pulled all the scum perspective posting to point out to everyone.

But the bolded above is showing his scum perspective.

1. Yume flakes regardless of alignment. So Vecna is using single game meta to say “She does it as scum” when it is well known that she flakes regardless of alignment. So what exactly was the point of pressuring a slot since it would not produce any alignment readability everyone may be asking? That goes right into point 2.

2. Vecna’s saying “Oh it was a placeholder vote”. I direct you to his behavior in Pick Your Power: Double Deck Mafia where he was scum –

Actually I wanna see more trump cards to play with my 2 boring cards.

Can we like speedgame this and just hammer a scum already? Everyon seems to be thinking along the same lines, lots of union and lovey-dovey carebearing.

dayphases lasting more than a fucking week are an abomination, and we dont appear to have that many lurkers in this game to make it a nessacity.

Can we like speedgame this and just hammer a scum already? Everyon seems to be thinking along the same lines, lots of union and lovey-dovey carebearing.

dayphases lasting more than a fucking week are an abomination, and we dont appear to have that many lurkers in this game to make it a nessacity.

Will also wagon this …

Especially given he’s parked on a 1-off vanity wagon …

So Vecna scum was sidelining his vote while putting up a front (in that game it was “Game is boring why are we not lynching”). I see pretty strong echoes this game with him parking his vote on Yume and saying “Not moving it to content improves”. He’s not actually pushing wagons just keeping his vote somewhere “safe”.

And his response …

Yes, scum would obviously be so blatant about it, right?

Is lulz worthy because Vecna scum, as shown above, is that blatant about it.

This is false. As indicated, I disliked his first posts, and liked a bunch of them later on. Also, where have I fed the slots ego? more made up nonsense.

This is so easily proven to be bullshit I’ll just pull the quotes showing “Hey, Imma buddy up hard to Majiffy and make sure I’m on his good side” for everyone to see …

I mean 584 and 588 when read in the flow of Vecna’s ISO show that it has dawned on Vecna realized that Majiffy was a “call me out and I attack you” Fate style player and he shifted gears abruptly from his vote in 579 and went with the “We can be pals” route.

[MagnaofIllusion]

is this a literal transcript of what happened in there moi?

Nope ... you can read the actual transcript of my initial post in my last post.

[MagnaofIllusion]

What are the most important other things that have happened so far?

We have established the four Neighborhoods in the game publicly.

How are you reading the members of your Neighborhood based on their content there so far Ank?

[MagnaofIllusion]

It does though.

The amount of times I've seen MoI wrongfully hardcore tunnel on town means I have 0 trust in his pushes anymore. The amount of times he is correct is not higher probability than if he were picking a random person from the playerlist.

But a lot of people have wrong reads all the time. The real problem with MoI is that once he has you as a scumread you cannot do anything to not get scumread. He plays with a caste system, and will make huge walls with a bunch of your posts and call them scummy in a sarcastic way. You can't ignore him either because people for some unknown reason listen to him and then pile votes with him (usually scum because it's so easy to sheep a big wall of logic that looks right).

[MagnaofIllusion]

I DONT WANT YOUR SCUM COOKIES TITUS YOU PROBABLY PUT POISON IN THEM

Refresh me on your VoT scum read Gork. They are Null to me mainly for the what I see as weak play from Titus. The fact that scum-SAD is the main pusher of the wagon doesn't incline me to want to vote there.

[MagnaofIllusion]

yeah okay.
lets dismiss all of my points because generic reasons that dont mean anything yeayayayayyayayayayayayayay

Gork you have to realize SAD is playing the "talk crap" card because he's a child who is still butthurt that he got lynched Day 2 in Defcon. He talks a big game about not caring about being lynched but clearly his reactions to his wagon here show otherwise. And this is regardless of whether he is bad Town like Defcon or scum who AtEd his wagon away and is laying the groundwork to undermine any pushes on him after I'm dead as "MoI" sucks.

So you aren't going to get him to be reasonable regardless so don't waste your time.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ill respond more in depth later from behind an actual computer, but just to clarify some points;

The extrapolation was about how scum is distributed amongst neighbourhoods. Yes?

Moi just admitted himself that only one of those 3 games use neighbourhoods from the start. So tell me then, how was my statement misrep that the extrapolation was based on one game?

It's comical that Vecna keeps trying to say "Only 1 of three games had a Neighborhood from the start" as a talking point.

Both games that had Neighborhood elements had those elements as 100% Town. In UPick Science the Neighborhood of 3 started with 3 Town. In Inorganic the Town started with three Neighborizors (you know, a Neighborhood element) and zero scum Neighborizors. So 100% of the time in these three Science based games when Neighborhood elements were present they were 100% Town.

Is this game going to have 100% Town Neighborhoods? Of course not. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to project that there is going to be an All-Town Neighborhood here and plan accordingly.

If you want to take issue with small sample size you have the right but it isn't going to sway me away.

There isn't any Town motive for Vecna to make those arguments in the PT that are based on invalid parallels and fear mongering.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I was vla at gamestart. I am here now. Talk to me about your not!Vecna reads.

Has nothing to do with you being V/LA. I would think you would understand that given I already questioned you about your “I need to sort MoI” stance that disappeared apparently because I pushed SAD. And the fact that early on you floated “Scum one each in the Neighborhoods” which is either bad or scum looking to make sure a partner gets “cleared” when another player from the Neighborhood flips.

Are you not reading my posts? I can summarize them but my reads should be pretty apparent from them.

SAD and Vecna scum.

Creature is Null but giving him a Town lean based on the likelihood he is not scum with Vecna from their PT interactions.

Gork is pretty Town. And I’m leaning Town on the FIrebringer / Maria hydra.

If I was looking for scum outside SAD / Vecna I have very weak gut reads on Sakura and Maquis.

So talk to me about your reads now …

[MagnaofIllusion]

Enough MoI.

I have asked you three fucking times for your not SAD/Vecna reads. I am not reading all those wall posts.

Talk to me about others.

Stow the histrionics Titus.

You've asked me three times in like 10 fucking minutes.

You don't get to pretend that my interacting with other in the thread isn't a good use of my time and that your question is fucking priority number 1.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI I'm at scum in Creature/beeboy/Gork/Ankimaus(Quartz)/Kuroi.
Outside chance of SAD/Vifam but not feeling it.

Anyone in particular you want comment on?

Are you being passive aggressive trying to piss me off for a reason Titus?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't see this as passive or aggressive. I don't have any interest in pissing off my townreads either.

You could have fooled me. I mean ... you put together a post that was mainly I think to show how passionate you were about me discussing reads with you. I then give you a quick summary of my reads. Most of which don't match up well with yours it seems.

And nothing asking me about why I don't see Creature as scum or why I am reading Gork as pretty solid Town.

Aside from whatever you have going on on the last few pages with Gork ... why is Gork scum other than calling you scum?

How to you have a scum read on Yume's slot at all? I read your "Yume respects me so much that she's say Hi!" but that is a pretty weak reason given Yume clearly pulled a Yume and flaked without putting in an ounce of effort.

Why is Kuror0 scum in your eyes? Does he have a history of flaking I am not aware of?

[MagnaofIllusion]

So let me ask you this "friend". You think scum sad and scum vecna are having this open lovefest out in the open air.....

And your third scumlean is voting me along side you....

And your fourth scumlean is the other person that was midly critiquing your plan as well in the pt....

Brilliant. Just pure genious.

I honestly start doubting whether you're actually scum when you have reads like these, because no self respecting scum would make reads this likely to get ridiculed.

Can I just point out that Vecna is talking out of like four sides of his mouth here and makes no sense.

Scum can't hard defend their partners? Lolwhut?
Scum can't soft distance? Lolwhut?
All scum reads have to be aligned in tight formation as a Team at all times, especially Day 1 before any flips?

I mean those point look like they were written by my 12 year old daughter who has never heard of Mafia.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You mentioned you have Creature as null because he's not Vecna's partner, which is shitty tunnel logic.

Yume in SU2 never flaked and is trying to change their reputation as a flaker. So they flake here? Nah, don't think so. Is it rock solid? Nope, but it's enough to lean scum. Ank has done nothing to put this forward.

Kuror0 was more active in Pokemon but I was scum there. Failed promises generally get scumreads from me.

I think it is clear that we are stowing our SAD / Vecna / Gork reads so I didn't include them.

On Yume ... um while I understand she didn't flake in SU2 that is one game and frankly I was shocked she stuck it out. So I'd go even further and say it wasn't rock solid but really not a reason to scum read the slot at all.

On Kuror ... I don't have meta myself to lean on but the fact I don't necessarily see someone who says "I'll get caught up or replace out" and shortly afterwards actually replaces a scummy when said person isn't under any pressure.

And on Creature - you still are just telling me I'm garbage as opposed to what is scum about Creature. What is he doing that says to you "Creature scum"? I personally tend to reference read him after Inspirational Mafia.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Mod - Going to be V/LA from basically now til Monday morning for usual weekend family duties.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok back from V/LA to find Mastin joined the game … joy …

SAD is now playing as happy scum who escaped the early pressure and is dropping empty posts like 1704 and laying down the groundwork to reverse on his previous scum-reads (see 1800 as an example). The fact that he laughably is suggesting “Policy lynch MoI” is simply a stance that would allow him to vote for me and abdicate responsibility with my Town flip. Why this is being Town read I don’t get at all. And look at his interaction with Majiffy that starts at 1789. SAD is bending over backwards to drop a Town read on Creature and when Majiffy smacks him out of the park he just goes “I disagree” with absolutely no substance in the response.

1728 is scum posting BTW as is 1909. And 2020 is more scum “Hey, imma gonna buddy the big name” play so mastin is probably Town.

--

Oh good, MoI had to mislynch me two more times until he started using reference reads on me.

So Creature since you are so gung-ho on people misusing game facts is a scum tell – please indicate to me what games I’ve mislynched you in. This is important so just blowing it off will make me assume you are scum.

--

Why don't you list where we agree and I will show you something MoI.

I’m not sure exactly what reads we do agree on. I’ll try to go back and look to see what commonalities we have.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Mini 1786: Inspirational Mafia
Mini 1810: Light and Darkness
STEVEN UNIVERSE 2

Yeah so I didn't mislynch you in Inspiriational. I was scum reading you but was replaced due to my vacation well before you got LYLO lynched.

And really Light and Darkness is a bad choice to fly since we were in opposing Towns and thus not aligned.

So you can only come up with one game where we were both Town that you got lynched?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Because next day all town can analyse is stances on one single players rather than many. If there are multiple wagons, scum must decide whether to join or refrain from it, and this is where they start painting themselves red.

I can't decide if Creature is trying to sell "too stupid to be scum" hear given Majiffy just made a post showing the many, many wagons that have already occured today to this point.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Spiffeh seems to be really interested in seeing me go off on MOI, and I could see naughty reasoning behind this since I do tend to tunnel quite hard once i do go off (which is a fact well known to spiffeh).

First of all, that most certainly is not a fact well known to me? We have no completed games together so idk why you're acting like I'm some expert on how you play.

Also, the above quote shows that you were at least suspicious of me. This was right before I went V/LA and I've only made a handful of posts since then. Yet you say this:

I liked a few posts from Spiffeh but we'll see how he does from now I'm interested in keeping him on my radar.

I also liked most of what he posted.....I just want him to get back in here and produce more stuff for me to like

I'm surprised that your opinion on me can change so dramatically when I haven't even been posted. Where is this sudden "liking me" coming from?

It's like he's fabricating bullshit reads or something Spiffeh ...

Oh that is right he is. Because he's scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm not really sure on Vecna. He asked me to vote VoT, but then I don't remember him ever voting them with me.

Then why did you specifically ask him to defend you from the people wagonning you in the PT then?

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: SAD

While I think Majiffy is probably Town pushing on Creature there are too many other voices I feel are Town saying he’s not likely scum. I’m not going to join there for the moment. So my vote goes back on scum I’ve already found.

And rather than rehashing all the already clear evidence I’ve pointed out I’ll reference 2224 as another post from a scum perspective. Ank has recently seen a junk wagon pop up on Town me for absolutely junk reasons. And him calling it out as he did is at worst NAI. So SAD floating it is “scum defending a wagon” is newb level posting. How scum defends a wagon on someone they know is Town is exactly the way SAD is defending Creature … just repeat that you think he is Town and when presented with facts (in this case that Creature is continuing to peddle a destroyed narrative) just say “I disagee”.

And Vecna continues to be obv with 2231 – he’s knocking someone for buddying up to him while he went out of his way to play in that same manner very early until I called him out on it.

I’m actually shocked as shit that Spiffeh is claiming a Town read on me after Thing Mafia. I need to process this because I expected that for him (as salty as he was about that loss) I’d not be ever above a Null read for him for about 6 months.

--

Actually I'm a bit fucking perturbed, Vecna

Instead of actually addressing the fact that I'm calling Creature out on his *continued* lying shit

You make a backhanded whiny post about how I'm pushing for a scumread

What the fuck is that

Majiffy –he’s scum … you have to see that by now …

--

Yoshi I probably would also vote at this stage for 2206. That is a pile of LAMIST garbage posting - “I’m coasting blah blah blah see I’m asking if you noticed so I’m totally Town right no scum would post this”.

Yoshi

– I’d really like you to address the following Cognitive Dissonance for me …

This MoI wagon is so bad that I'm willing to call MoI pretty solidly town solely from that.

Vecna, Creature, Vifam, Ser Arthur Dayne

Huh. No wonder this wagon smells so bad.

*vigorous nods of approval*

This MoI wagon is so bad that I'm willing to call MoI pretty solidly town solely from that.

Vecna, Creature, Vifam, Ser Arthur Dayne

Huh. No wonder this wagon smells so bad.

Go ahead and tell me why there's a wagon suddenly popping up on a slot with no reasoning whatsoever that also happens to hold two scumreads and two nullreads of mine.

Unpack that for me. Tell me exactly what you mean.

This is not town giving thoughts on a wagon, this is scum defending a wagon knowing it's town.

Intriguing... Regardless, I like this read. May or may not be true, but I like the thought process.

--

you really think creature making untrue statements about hiswagon being a Big Deal makes him scum?

Why ask a question that is pointless? It means he is either scum trying to wiggle out of pressure or a terrible Town player. That’s established. I understand what I think is Majiffy’s frustration. Giving players a pass to play bad as Town “because they do” leads to players like KainTepes being celebrated instead of encouraged to not play poorly.

How do you propose to read Creature then?

--

No, but I am a replacement in a game with Firebringer AND MagnaofIllusion, both players who tend to take issue with me and would rather not have had me replace in--so it's treading on eggshells for me to try to be on my best behavior and yet still function as a player.

There's a grand total of seven players who so much as could be scum--MoI/Creature/Marquis/Rick/Majiffy/VoT/Yoshi; everyone else is town.
This, not even going into whether the players actually are scum. (For instance, you I heavily lean against.)

Look – more mastin bullshit. Oh I’m worried about how Rick and Andrea / MoI will react to me so I’m being careful. Meanwhile both these players are in the pool of fucking 7 players who could only be scum. Yes that’s right … mastin has a pool that is 4/7 scum and is worried about offending two of the players in that fucking pool.

Terrible posting – the fact that he’s probably Town makes it even more frustrating.

[MagnaofIllusion]

First of all, Ank gave no evidence for why he thinks you're town. So saying that I am doing that as scum to Creature then you fail to see Ank doing the same thing.

Second, I have already presented why I think Creature might be town here (his posting is much more similar to his town meta than to his scum). And I don't even have a strong townread on him. I just absolutely hate the wagon and how people are pushing it, which is making me townread him more.

Third, how can you say you start doubting your Creature scumread yet me saying the wagon is garbage is bad?

1. Your push back against Majiffy is exactly the “No he’s Town Alternative Facts bro” response that I’m talking about in how your pushback against facts is from a scum perspective. I know that I transitioned from discussing your bad push on Ank to your bad response to Majiffy which was more than you can process. Hopefully you can comprehend this.

2. Oh look just as I said … your Townread is “meta” and you are doing here what I have pointed out earlier … prepaing your “escape hatch” to change your read with the “I don’t even have a strong townread” line. And finally you are using the exact same reasoning you called scummy in Ank – attacking the wagon and the people who push it in arriving at a Town read on someone. Yet Ank is scum for doing it while you aren’t , huh? Cognitive Disssonance to a tee …

3. This is an outright lie so thanks for making my job easy pointing out how scummy you are. 1630 shows my read on Creature as Null. That hasn’t changed. I don’t think he’s scum with Vecna. And my discussion with VoT should have made that clear for anyone with basic reading skills that I don't think Creature is scum like you or Vecna.

Can we get some more votes on this obvious scumbag?

You're such a bad player it hurts to read your posts. Literally cringe worthy.

Someone get SAD some chaffing cream because his ass is still red, raw and chapped …

Sucks that someone you claim is so bad at this game is not letting scum you off the hook …

[MagnaofIllusion]

I was questioning whether Majiffy's push was surface or if he had actually considered motivations, which he answered. It's not pointless to me.

Anyway I'm mid catch-up now. Sorry it took me a day.

Ok I guess. I think it is pretty clear Majiffy is not just Rhetoric pushing Creature. He’s even requoted his long post showing Creature’s stance was fabricated since you replaced. Did you miss that?

[MagnaofIllusion]

You just hate fun

Not really. I just don't think being a complete waste of slot is "fun".

Insert shrug fake-emoji here ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

moi. do you think you generally have a good track record of reading SAD?

I don't keep track of such things. Personally I think people who say "I totally can read Player X" are overstating grossly.

SAD is whining about me mis-reading him in 5 games (one of which is this one so it's AtE on that account). The three others are games like 4 years ago that I had to go back to look at to even see if he wasn't bullshitting in Defcon. The other was Defcon. Your opinion - was my scum read and push that lynched him Day 2 unwarranted in your opinion?

[MagnaofIllusion]

idrc how someone plays as long as they keep it entertaining and are nice


that's all we should ask from each other tbh

Oh well. I don't care if everyone is puppy dogs and rainbows as long as they actually play the game and try their best to help achieve their wincon. But we clearly don't see eye to eye.

[MagnaofIllusion]

What I saw in the Creature case was evidence that Creature was wrong, which I accepted. If there was talk of motivation in that post I missed it. It's not as if town can never be wrong about anything. Having not read the whole exchange in context and such, my initial thoughts just based on what I have seen is that, whether town or scum, Creature believes what he's saying is right. I don't think as scum he would intentionally hide behind something demonstrably false as a strategy.

Oh certainly Town can be wrong. It happens every game. But Creature is just continuing to say things that Majiffy detontated in his post as if they are true when they'd been demonstrably proven wrong. That's past the point of being wrong and into him effectively sticking his fingers in his ears and screaming "I CAN'T HEAR YOU" over and over. I don't think it is unreasonable to consider that beyond "just Town being wrong" and be scum source posting. I'm not there myself but I can see that place from where I sit.

[MagnaofIllusion]

there are some people who would say that the d2 defcon sad lynch was terrible.
and i think before d2 he was a pretty bad push.

i just have heard him talk about you not being particularly great at reading him in the past a lot.
i would think that might give you a moment's pause at least?
especially since sad isnt really coming across as scummy to most people?

Who are "those people"? I mean at the end of the day anyone can say anything in this era of "Alternative Facts". I don't think SAD being lynched there was a travesty at all.

And Gork I'm not sure you know me all that well I guess. I don't know if you followed Kids TV Mafia after you died but even Day 1 I had an unpopular read on Nacho as scum. People telling me that I was bad about that read there didn't deter me and I'm certainly not going to be swayed by someone saying "You can't read me and you suck".

So did that early wagon on SAD mean that most people voted him on policy (which is what bad player do, BTW)? I'm confused why you think he's being solidly Townread.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Vecna: I'm not reading through a thread I fully believe is a waste of time, so tell me the reasons on MoI being scum.

I'll summarize his reasoning - OMGUS.

[MagnaofIllusion]

i just think from where the gamestate is currently at, youre going to struggle to get 4-5 votes on sad even if you make a good case there today. so making a lot of noise about it seems counterproductive to me. certain kinds of players dont go down easy on d1, sad is definitely one of those players. so even if he is scum here it just seems to me like youre wasting your time and im kind of confused why you feel SO confident about him when i feel like beyond singular moments of inspiration, i feel overly unconfident in my ability to read sad in general.

You are probably right on the very first part - it might not be doable today. But my two strongest scum reads are SAD and Vecna and I've pushed wagons to viable sizes on both already. I'm currently working on a few other irons but nothing as strong as my read on them. So I'm absolutely not going to let those reads fade into the distance. Sorry if that feels like to you as it is unproductive but FMPOV it is a necessity. I'll point to my custom title on this - I long ago got sick of letting my top reads go, dying N1, and then watching as everyone considered them ancient history.

Recently Spyro the Dragon Mafia reminded me in a big way. I let my read on SirCakez go and followed onto Gin Day 1. It was a mislynch and I got Nightkilled because SirCakez was scum and I had pushed on both other scum during the Day. Town went on to lose when the points I brought up against Leon (not as strongly as I am pushing here) were forgotten. So at some level I feel it is "shame on me" for not doing my best to keep my scum suspects front and center. Maybe that's bad of me ... but I think it is how I have to best manage the situation.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Great once again moving the goalpost and

now you're resorting to belittling

The scum irony is strong with this one ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

While everyone argues i'll just stay here voting scum, dont mind me but all this back and forth is tiring and isnt changing my reads a single bit.

So aside from Gin what are your reads anyway? The "I'm apathetic and I'll just keep calling a single person scum" routine long ago wore out its welcome.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Do you see anything he's posted recently that looks scummy?

I've already pointed out Yoshi's very recent suspect posting ...

Are you not reading?

[MagnaofIllusion]

can we maybe talk shop about our personal strongest two scumreads sometime in the near future and really try to dig into where we're both coming from? will maybe help both of us get to a stronger place reads-wise.

That sounds like a good plan.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Do I look like a SirCakez alt?

You have proved over and over you're terrible at reading me. This is like "I have misread this dude a bunch of times but look I read this irrelevant player correctly here hnnnnnng"

Hey look a pot-shot from the land of Strawman arguments …

No-one ever said you were a SirCakez alt ScumAD. So pretending my discussion with Gork about a recent game where I let a scum read go on SirCakez is saying that is just terrible and scummy ...

--

The sudden scumreads on BYF feel so left field

Like where is this suddenly coming from

Are you used to doing nothing and having everything spoon fed to you?

Yoshi

– I’d really like you to address the following Cognitive Dissonance for me …

This MoI wagon is so bad that I'm willing to call MoI pretty solidly town solely from that.

Vecna, Creature, Vifam, Ser Arthur Dayne

Huh. No wonder this wagon smells so bad.

*vigorous nods of approval*

This MoI wagon is so bad that I'm willing to call MoI pretty solidly town solely from that.

Vecna, Creature, Vifam, Ser Arthur Dayne

Huh. No wonder this wagon smells so bad.

Go ahead and tell me why there's a wagon suddenly popping up on a slot with no reasoning whatsoever that also happens to hold two scumreads and two nullreads of mine.

Unpack that for me. Tell me exactly what you mean.

This is not town giving thoughts on a wagon, this is scum defending a wagon knowing it's town.

Intriguing... Regardless, I like this read. May or may not be true, but I like the thought process.

Read that and tell me that comes from Town Yoshi …

[MagnaofIllusion]

Town: {Rick and Andrea, Creature, Rem and Ram, Gorkington, Titus}
Townlean: {mastina, MoI}
Null: {Nahdia, SAD, Majiffy, BigYoshiFan, Vifam, Vecna}
Scumlean: {Ankamius, beeboy-slot, Sakura Hana}

So Spiffeh ... talk to me about the following reads here.

Sakura Hana - is that scum read formed from anything other than meta?

Majiffy and Vecna - Why is Majiffy not at least Townlean. And although I disagree completely how is Vecna null to you as you recently said you liked how he handled the pressure from me.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ank was pointing out that the wagon came from nowhere and could be scum motivated


SAD said that Ank was defending the MoI because he knows MoI is town


From Yoshi's POV both could be possible

No, they can't. Yoshi specifically agreed with Ank's assessment that the wagon is trash. And then agreed with ScumAD that Ank might be scummy. When Ank's quotes that Yoshi agreed with are fully included in the set of quotes ScumAD used to call Ank scum. Not to mention that he's agreeing with ScumAD who is part of the wagon Yoshi agreed was garbage.

So Yoshi thinks that the wagon is garbage and at the time thinks someone pointing out the exact fact is scum. That's two non-intersection thought processes in 30 posts. Maybe you could say it made sense if Yoshi changed his mind after flips and more information came to light the next day. But in the time frame it happened?

Nope.jpg

Yoshi isn't scum hunting. He's just soft-buddying slots in a manner that makes no sense as Town.

[MagnaofIllusion]

How does anyone see 2462 and think “This is Town”? Really? I don’t understand you people at all. That post is basically a flat out lie since Maj has multiple times shown his large post refuting Creature’s stance on wagons. That clearly is part of his scum read. I mean … if you want to say SAD is a junk player who posts things obviously untrue as Town … that doesn’t resonate with me but that is the only explanation I can come up with .

Same with 249 – that isn’t Town talking to someone who is still on their scum list right there. That's light threatening ...

--

i could lynch jiffy for how shit his engagement this game is.

I don’t get this … while Majiffy’s been leading the wagon on Creature more or less at the expense of any other scum reads (aside from SAD / Vifam / maybe you) he at least is honest about having too many Town reads and pushing what he does think is scum. I don’t see this as shit engagement. Shit engagement would be Sakura or Yoshi.

If you think he’s scum for not Town reading you then … meh.

--

I thought I was scum?

Pick a narrative my man he's either trying to buddy me because he's scum or we're partners in which case it isn't buddying.

It’s quaint that you are trying to float that I have a “false narrative” here for multiple reasons. Firstly the fact that scum can’t “buddy” in thread to lay false leads is clearly not the case … it happens all the time. So that’s strike one to the false dichotomy. Secondly the fact that you seem to be saying here “You can’t look for multiple scum and once you have a read you can’t explore other scum in the off chance you are wrong” is also pretty specious.

Not that frankly I’d expect anything less from you.

--

Objection.
I did change my mind.
Ank hadn't posted much up to that, and by calling MoI town just based on this improptu wagon, SAD's interpretation that Ank knows MoI is town made more sense. I didn't like the wagon at first either, and just sheeped that opinion.

Overruled. I find your “I was thinking so little about what I posted the first time it that ScumAD’s post completely changed my mind” a pretty lacking explanation. Do you normally just sheep without putting any modicum of thought into your posts?

Geez MoI, you sure got a lot from only a few posts of mine, didn't you?

Wow it’s like the point of the game is to look at posts and assess whether them make sense and might be coming from a fraudulent perspective …

And I guess I'll have to make this clear, this doesn't imply that I think Creature is town. Again, I like the thought process behind it.
I still think Creature is scum.

So you think ScumAD’s post that was a blatant lie is Town-read worthy but think he’s so bad that you still think Creature is scum?

--

It is specifically because you are in the pool that I need to tread carefully, MoI.

If I was townreading you, there would be no issue. If you townread me and I townread you we could effectively leave it at that and ignore each other entirely. It's day one, so it's not like we'd be likely to ever need to work together, so no repeat of Steven Universe 2. No treading on eggshells, no special measures needed, because nothing I say matters/would be relevant to you, and likely vice-versa too.

...But because I'm not townreading you (though you apparently are townreading me), there IS the issue. Because I'm not townreading you, there's treading on eggshells because there's the whole awkwardness of the situation. It's unpleasant, but also my fault, and something that therefore warrants caution.

And this is why I said at the end of SU2 we should never cross paths. This is what I’ve come to expect from you – mind-blowingly worthless posting. I am basically ignoring your reads because your PoE pool is typical overwrought mastin junk. The only think holding me back from solidly putting you in down as Town is the fact that you haven’t acknowledged that you always scum read me which you have admitted to publicly before as Town. The fact that you are hiding behind some garbage PoE but are not willing to really press the issue is why I haven’t turned your posts to “Auto Skip” at this stage.

And 2552 is why I do ignore you if I Town read you …

And now that I see 2575 I really have to question my Town read. Because after Defcon and SU2 you thinking you are some grand unifying force that people would flock to is pretty absurd and makes me question how much this is just empty grandstanding meant to ape your “Town Mastin” persona.

[MagnaofIllusion]

EBWOP

Same with 2493 – that isn’t Town talking to someone who is still on their scum list right there. That's light threatening ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

So, do you think SAD is whiteknighting or defending a buddy with Creature? Right now, SAD is propping up the Ankimaus counterwagon.

WhiteKnighting. ScumAD would probably bus the shit out of a scum-partner in Creature given he's basically spewing nonsensical stuff in his posts. Also, Defcon Day 2 says that ScumAD doesn't hard defend a partner going down since he knows there is every chance that he gets lynched in response the next day if he doesn't NK me. And I hope I've already made it clear that me biting the dust tonight is basically a guilty on both SAD and Vecna.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Right now, if you died, I would be suspect town had a vig. I would take your reads into account, but you're working with no one. I think SAD might be scum, but reads being filtered through that assumption don't do much for anyone. If SAD dies and flips town, your posts are near worthless.

Even I once or twice break meta reads like that. What a player does depends on the situation as much as the tendencies/preferences of the players. For instance, I had to bus in Street Fighter to be involved in any major wagon. Strategy meta depends a fair amount on what SAD values.

I want you to disassociate from your convictions about meta. Tell me which posts fuel your belief in whiteknighting or defending a partner at least without relying on a meta read.

I hope I am not being to harsh as I respect you as a player.

Titus you don’t have to pretend … I know you don’t really care for me. You’ve made it clear over and over again. It doesn’t bother me so don’t put in the fake effort.

I don’t know why you are talking about meta here frankly. While I mention Defcon as a reason why I don’t see ScumAD as strong defending a partner that isn’t “ScumAD does this” it’s game-state driven. Creature’s not a strong player. He makes stupid moves as Town. Every game I’ve played with him he’s done stupid stuff that hurts Town. But that isn’t reason to Town read him … he could certainly make stupid moves as scum also.

Coming through ScumAD’s voluminous spam to point out specific post is a fucking chore BTW. I mean he’s already got 316 fucking posts.

But let’s poke around and see his Creature reads –

204 – Creature is Town for ????.
277 and 638 are more empty Creature is Town posts.
669 is the first time we get any sort of reasoning … and it is meta that scum Creature has no reads. 692 reiterates this stance.

Now read 1132 in depth on his Creature read. This is exactly the same manner he treated you just recently – “Creature is no longer Town as he voted me”. And then examine the following line –

I do not like the static reads however.

This is pretty much in direct contradiction to his earlier meta read that scum Creature would not have reads at all. And ScumAD floats that he has limited Creature experience. Why strongly meta-read Creature in the first place if he’s now saying he doesn’t have a huge base of experience to make that meta read? He ends that read with “Creature is just probably VI”.

In 1154 he floats he needs to actually do a meta read on Creature. Again – his whole Town reading Creature earlier makes no sense from Town given it was meta-driven. Question to ask yourself – did this meta read ever materialize? The answer is – nope.

In 1386 Creature has dropped to Null.

1789 is defending Creature from Majiffy. 1793 is more empty “man that wagon on Creature stinks”. 1816 is further defending Creature via downplaying the wagon when Majiffy has repeatedly shown why Creature’s statements about his wagon are incorrect.

Meanwhile ScumAD is maintiaing his Null status on Creature. He floats that if Creature was scum it was with Sakura at 1820 . And 1873 is basically revoking this already not solid Meta read. And we get the fluffy 2025 which looks like an attempt to sort of say that lack of emotion is scummy. And at 2026 Creature is down. ScumAD’s last reads list had Creature as Null so at best he should be leaning scum. Which 2028 confirms.

2228 posits two posts by Creature as Townish for … reasons …

Let’s compare his recent “willing to lynch list” at 2300 with his last reads post …

Tier list

Gork, Vecna, RickAndreas
Yoshi, Vifam, Marquis, mastina
beeboy, MoI, Sakura
Spiffeh, Majiffy, Creature, Ank, Rem/Ram
Voices

Oh I can go for a beeboy lynch too I guess. Though I kinda liked the post where he made a tier list and had a bunch of townreads, felt okay. But we can add him to The List.

Ank
VoT
Rem/Ram
Majiffy
Beeboy

I don't think I would be happy with any other.

Noteable that Creature is a LeanScum read that ScumAD isn’t willing to lynch. Why?

I mean if you look through his ISO as ScumAD is presenting it you should come to the conclusion that Creature should be an acceptable lynch. But ScumAD is spending basically fighting the lynch simply because it is being pushed by Majiffy. Not because he Town reads Creature. But to make Majiffy look bad.

That doesn’t say “Defending a Partner” at all. That says “I’m going to use this flip that I know is Town despite me calling it a ScumLean against someone else and making sure I lay that groundwork today”.

Which is WhiteKnighting … or a variant I guess you could say.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm in the mind to just get on Creature and lynch so when he flips town people can start looking better at the garbage wagon.

If he's scum I can be d2 lynch

Oh look .. the timing on this is classic ...

Can we get more votes here please?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Sorry, but we settled that Rem and Ram will be lynched without hesitation next day if I'm lynched and I flip town.

Funny but the only person I recall agreeing to that is you ...

sooo ...

given what I just posted about ScumAD's treatment of you and your wagon why don't you join me there?

[MagnaofIllusion]

First of all Titus you need to chill with the “stop ignoring me” crap. I have other games and things outside of MS to get to. I just don’t sit here and wait for every post to respond to.

Yeah, this isn't true, so I'm going to keep reaching out to you to try and show you that I do care even though I am struggling to communicate with you.

We can hash this out another time as it really isn’t game relevant but yeah that has been the impression I have gotten in most of my interactions with you since returning to the site.

That's my concern and you got there without meta.

Talk to me about Vifam?

Sure. Vifam playstyle is to shit-post. I tend to auto-read that as scum for reasons I don’t want to bother with explaining in detail. Part of the reason Fire and I don’t get along. But intellectually I know that’s not going to be the case with most shit-posters. So I have to find other ways to read them. Fire I have playstyle tells that I lean on. With Vifam I don’t have anything in that way so I’m trying to parse how he reacts to pressure on other slots. I’m not enamored of his reaction to the Creature wagon but he’s not selling it as “Attack those players Day 2”.

Am I correct in that your reason for scum reading Vifam is meta? Either way please give me the short and sweet of why you scum read there.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Why are you treating like I made a lot of town scumread me to death and leave scum all whiteknight me for towncred?

Because I know that 4/16 other players being scum means that 75% of the game is Town. Majiffy’s push isn’t unreasonable. So the best place to look IMO for scum is those who have terrible reasons to call you a bad lynch. ScumAD meets that profile.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So we’ve gotten to page 125. Well officially this day has drug on way past the point of reasonableness. If we aren’t lynching obv in Vecna or ScumAD then I’ve pretty much lost my will to care at this point.

So if to move forward I have to choose between Creature and R&R, one of whom is being WhiteKnighted by ScumAD and one being pushed by ScumAD?

VOTE: Creature

Slam dunk given that Creature is the choice of both Majiffy and Titus who I feel both stand a solid chance of being Town.

Sorry bud but if I have to choose between two players who probably are Town I’m choosing the one that looks less likely to actually be helpful to Town going forward. Actually strike that … I’m not too sorry given you were more than happy to be part of my terrible Day 1 apathy mislynch in Undertale Mafia.

--

also moi, i havent forgotten my offer.

i just might wait until i have good scumreads if thats fair q.q

I haven’t forgotten either.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey now, heeeeyy now. I totally didn't lynch you out of apathy in Undertale Mafia. I absolutely scumread you (incorrectly) that game.

We can talk about your bad play there some other time Nahdia ...

Why are you responding to a point made directly to Creature?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Any decision to not join the Rem and Ram wagon is a direct affront to me.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Actually strike that … I’m not too sorry given you were more than happy to be part of my terrible Day 1 apathy mislynch in Undertale Mafia.

Gork you have to realize SAD is playing the "talk crap" card because he's a child who is still butthurt that he got lynched Day 2 in Defcon.

I mean if you are going to try to use pics in your responses at least come up with your own. Sad (ha, pun) that you can't even do that.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ank is scum? Maybe but look at Creature!

Vifam is scum? Possible but look at Creature!

Vecna is scum? Possible but look at Creature!

Where were you when I was busting my ass pushing on obv-scum like ScumAD and Vecna? This whining isn't helpful at this stage as you are literally spamming pointlessness. If you don't have anything to say about who should be lynched stop blubbering about people compromising after 125 pages ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

If I'm fucking whtieknighting Creature get on me fuckers don't coward away LET'S FUCKING GO ENGAGE ME

He posts this like I haven't been voting him up until this morning LOL

[MagnaofIllusion]

Actually I’m tempted to vote Gin at this stage. I think the speed of the wagon indicates that scum feels his slot is doomed and got on as fast as possible for the Town cred. And the people I think are Town generally are in the pool going “Hey that is too fast and there’s no claim can we think for a minute” which supports that premise.

--

TheRealGin-N-Tonic - 6 (Vifam, Spiffeh, Rick and Andrea, Sakura Hana, Titus, Vecna)

So like, either we just hammer Gin STRAIGHT AWAY NOW, or we go look for another wagon for today. Sitting around for 4 days is nonsensical. Id suggest we just bite the bullet and get this over with. 2 more votes please. This thread doesnt need another 70 pages because ive had enough games lately where replacements cba to read anything so it completely fucks up the game.

Hammertime bitches

Aside from Vecna’s ability to do basic math (Gin’s L-3 when he posted this) look at the ultimatum he’s selling here – Either powerlynch without a claim or go to another wagon. That’s crafted to hit Town (who don’t generally like hammers without claims to prevent bad PR mislynches) right where it hurts. 3434 and 3450 are trying to drive that home given Gin is L-3 still.

VOTE: Gin

Calling your bluff scumbag.

And this is L-2 for those playing along at home.

--

Okay so I should have been reading my neighborhood a lot more closely.

But in a recent revelation, I think mastina is scum.

In addition, I think Gin is partner. We really do need a Gin lynch today.

Yeah everyone remember early today when I made the point that Neighborhoods are important tools to use and have everyone clear on who is where and players like ScumAD were like “I’m never using a Neighborhood it sucks and MoI is a moron for saying that”?

Remember that?

Wow how funny that just now suddenly ScumAD’s neighborhood is suddenly useful …

--

I scumread Vecna earlier before your vote and no one gave a fuck

Yeah and then I actually pushed a wagon on him, it got some traction, and he started his scummy OMGUS and you really just … sat there and let the wagon fall off him.

Again … don’t complain about things not happening when you are part of things not happening.

--

Up to this point I'm not seeing why you think I should be town reading Majiffy?

He's been pushing what I believe to be lynchbait all game, and I don't think he's done anything else beyond his realm of capability as scum

I know he's made a few "cases" on Creature that I haven't read yet so I'll read them over and hopefully feel one way or the other about him

You keep saying the phrase “it’s not beyond his capabilities as scum” which is starting to make me go hmmm Spiffeh. That’s a pretty empty phrase because I think you can apply that to any play by any player realistically.

Majiffy has found a case he believes in and pushed it in a way that is Pro-Town. He’s explained motivations and given examples. Remembering how I remember his play as scum that’s not what I expect. In fact he’s downplayed the “I’m Majiffy just sheep me” angle to make it so everyone else has a reason to examine the evidence and decide for themselves. That’s Pro-Town even if you are someone who says “Meta Creature is lazy as scum” which may be true. Especially given he’s cognizant of that history and nothing he’s posted this game looks like it is very engaged. Just one line spamming without PoE Townreading to find scum that his a hallmark of his Town game.

If you don’t see that as a reason for a Day 1 Townread then we aren’t meeting on common ground it seems.

I think the worst part of his push is that he tries to pass off EVERYONE defending Creature as a par of Creature's scumteam which is such a bullshit and ridiculous assumption to make.

Please support this as I don’t see that myself.

Titus I'm starting to lean heavily towards SAD being town

So Spiffeh … is this doing the thing like in Thing Mafia where scum just sidle up to you, don’t push you / agree with you, and you Town read them?

[MagnaofIllusion]

this game going slower could mean that actual things happen instead of "LETS LYNCH PERSON". i would love a good chat with mastin/spiff/nahdia/moi to try and condense reads and actually figure things out instead of just "lolololololol fuck it kill people".

i really see no reason to keep the pace as fucking dumbly fast without much actual substance behind it as it is right now.

Gork I'm solo posting this so you can clearly see it - I feel the same. I'd love for a thread where there were not like 8 players with over 250 posts (when I have like 65-70) so I didn't have to wade through pages of "herp a derp here's whatever nonsense is currently on my mind that probably is meaningless" posting.

That said - what are your thoughts on the speed of the Gin wagon and my conclusions posted above?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well at least Night coincided with my V/LA so I didn’t get 60 pages behind.

It really is kind of laughable that I’m getting wagonned today on the basis of “Obvious bus” when had I not actually placed my vote the Gin wagon would have self-destructed with Vecna scum screaming “I’m totally moving my vote unless you allow a claimless hammer on someone V/LA due to real life circumstances”. Literally you could not have taken a tactic meant more to assure the wagon went away. And of course chuckle-fuck Vecna is voting for me

VOTE: Vecna

I mean look at the start of 3685 – the “regardless of what MoI flips I’m making a list” is such scum motivated posting. Vecna isn’t interested in solving the game he’s interested in painting everyone else badly no matter the circumstances. Not that he probably doesn’t know the result – I flip Town and he goes “who White-Knighted” . But he’s saying all pushes against my wagon are bad regardless of my flip. Posting and motivation for defending a partner as scum are much different than White-Knighting Town under fire. But Vecna is saying there is no difference. Scum.

Thank god someone else sees what I saw developing on that Gin wagon – 3663

The rest of the wagon is pretty stupid. Yoshi actually stands out as the worst reasoning to me with “I didn’t like how he reacted to me” as his substance to move to vote me. Why were you not worried about my reaction to you yesterday Yoshi? You played it off as if I was Town reading too much into your quick opinion change. Looks very much like a fabricated justification to get on the “Follow SAD train”.

And R&R’s claim means they are more or less confirmed Town baring a counter-claim. Which I am not doing.

--

Actually I’m tempted to vote Gin at this stage. I think the speed of the wagon indicates that

scum feels his slot is doomed and got on as fast as possible for the Town cred

. And the people I think are Town generally are in the pool going “Hey that is too fast and there’s no claim can we think for a minute” which supports that premise.

Kinda how I felt about this vote.

Oh so your premise is that I voted for Town cred?

That’s funny then given that’s the exact opposite of the reaction generated. Bad justification as I mentioned earlier.

--

SAD's dying wish was that MoI get pressured

Like he literally left a "Last Will" in case he died

So where is the follow through Spiffeh? You think he ranted in typical derp SAD fashion that I had to die tomorrow and I killed him after helping push the Gin wagon over the top? I want to see a conclusion from you.

I agree that MoI's posts deteriorated as the day progressed

Yeah. It’s totally not like I got shunted into apathy land due to the lame spamming that made doing meaningful work in thread impossible …

[MagnaofIllusion]

I feel I deserve some credit/towncred for the final push as well

This is literally cheeky scum going “Oh, I was totally trying to dismantle the wagon on my partner but now lets see if I can get Town cred it” …

R&R/Ank are still likely scum as well though.

And look no further than this to show that Vecna isn’t actually getting reads but is just presenting stances he thinks he can capatilze on …

Too bad he missed the Watcher Inventor claim …

The reason he's dead is probably because MoI knew he'd be coming for him all guns blazing today, after he noticed the same obvious bussing post.

Translation – my scum-fuck buddies and I saw SAD gave us a perfect WIFOM kill …

--

Cut me some slack, I felt bad for my brother and thought the replace out was town

So the entirety of you reason to scum read R&R was on Town reading the beeboy slot?

[MagnaofIllusion]

~Rick

My mind right now:
Town Heroes: Spiffeh, Gorkington, Vifam, Nahdia, Sakura Hana
Town Fighters: Titus, Mastina, Creature
Town Workers: BigYoshiFan, Majiffy,
Lost in Life: Rem and Ram, Vecna, MagnaofIllusion
The Evils: Ankamius,

Um Fire … the fact that you have R&R as basically lean scum is bad. Really, really bad … I mean if you don’t want to actively sort between Vecna and I until one of us flips I can accept. But if you think R&R are scum with a Watch Immune Goon flipped you need a reality check. Stop it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI: Why did you vote Gin? Your vote there felt like so weird, and I had been trying to get him lynched for a while, yet you never paid attention to it until some SAD posts.

I’ve already explained in the post where I made the vote. The way the wagon was being handled both from a speed standpoint and from Vecna’s “Oh we are either lynching right now or I’m never voting Pine” posting. I’m not sure why you say that it was SAD posts that made me take notice … it was Vecna’s that really drew me to make that vote.

Frankly your push on the wagon was pretty whelming Sakura. You sat around whining about how obv-scum the slot was but doing really nothing to show why. Did you expect me (or frankly anyone) to take your input as meaningful?

At the time of your vote these were the people voting for Gin, which are the "scum piling up on a doomed slot" here?

Vecna clearly. You and Spiffeh possibily.

I Town read R&A. I also thought Titus was fairly Town yesterday and don’t think she’s bother trying to derail my wagon today if she was scum. My mislynch is a gift for her if she is scum and no reason for her to expend energy fighting it as strenuously.

Vifam is a toss-up. I’m used to his miserable play as Town so today’s push is pretty much par for the course.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I’m halfway curious why mastin keeps saying “I am waiting on Spiffeh approval” about whatever gambit he had going in his PT. I don’t really care about the gambit itself but really want to know why King Spiffeh needs to issue the royal decree for release of information to the masses when clearly scum have to know whatever secret junk was going down.

@Titus

– Just stop on the credit thing. You aren’t getting lynched today so it really doesn’t matter. Just push on another scum.
--

apart from that it might keep us alive if they are scum.
if they're town, scum has to be careful whether or not we actually get shot.
yknow?
-HS

Hey I agree you are the smart watch target. But silently make your choice and communicate it in your Neighorhood overnight as close to deadline for Day 3 as you can … for reasons.

--

VOTE: Vecna

@Titus please girl, shut the hell up about the credit thing. no one gives a flying fuck.

No matter what everyone else says Nahdia – I think you are a good egg.

--

wheres that picture of people laughing..

Stop trying to steal my visual media …

So why’d you vote me today Gork? I want to hear from direct from the source.

Also – do you want to talk about scum read still or am I no longer cool?

--

I actually did, i even linked bee's scum meta.
But as I said yesterday, everyone seemed to have flat out ignored it.

Yeah meta cases mostly suck. Sorry but that’s the truth. Yours may have been solid buying in requires the audience to have the same experiences as you. My experience with beefboy is basically playing in a game he modded (Fire and Ice) aka none. I’ll look back to check but I’m guessing I tuned you out as you had no behavioral tells from this game for me to reference. If I’m wrong shame on me but I don’t think I am.

--

White knighting a mislynch (the stronger the player, the better! And also, the stronger the wagon momentum, the better), while not actually making much effort to stop it, is Titus's scum MO.

Did you read what I just said about meta to Sakura? If not do so. You are selling trying to sell me that scum think the upside of not mislynching me when it looks viable (and the SAD kill was tailor made to sell it) is greater than not pushing it through and you know I’m not buying that with meta as the backup.

[MagnaofIllusion]

i think you should really address what sakura asked you about WHO on the wagon was the scum pushing the bus.

So was 3786 in secret agent ink that only Sakura could read?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Mastina, Vifam or Nahdia, which should I push?

That's the only choices?

I mean - mastin probably is Town for the absolute unwarranted ego being thrown off today. The fact that mastin is floating "Oh, Titus is playing just like RR in SU2" as a viable angle when that would be monumentally stupid of you given that play didn't work for RR and all three of us know it says to me "Defcon Mastin".

Vifam - as I said I probably will never be able to read Vifam because Vifam has the "play bad as Town forever and you can never be scum read easily" thing going. Spyro and the recently ended Darkest Dungeon really have shaped my opinion on him. I'd really have to see something in Day 1 that said "strong link to Bee / Gin" to go there today.

Likewise I don't think scum Nahdia decides to join me on Vecna today like she did. Maybe if both Ank and I are Town and the scum team was certain that Town Ank or Town MoI was going down. But even then those funky off-votes might be VCA poison down the line.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Sakura

– so Ank asks you to show posts where you were scum-reading him and you come up with 4043 as a response where you were Null reading him?

Spiffeh

– I’ll get to your posts in another post shortly …

--

VOTE: Vecna

VOTE: Vecna

VOTE: Vecna

Rem and Ram

– Ali head should be joining us on this wonderful wagon for Vecna’s “Look I’ll be super cheeky scummy and everyone will assume I am Town LOLOLOL” post below ..

Maybe I should do the 12-hour and then my vote is gone thing again.

--

I honestly don't know if I can read the dude.

Neither of you seem to be able to Fire. Neither of your heads can I ever recall correctly reading me (this is in Town games of course). Maria I know is 0/2 (Walking Dead and Thing). Your record is more varied but I don’t ever recall seeing you Town read me as Town. I know you’ve participated in mislynches on Town me often (Beeboy’s Fire and Ice Mafia and Walking Dead come to mind) and were Town reading me in Thing. If you know a game I’m missing let me know.

--

Sakura and I have a lot of history.

I don't see her acting like this towards me as town. It doesn't happen.

Creature has floated this same argument against Rem and Ram and we now know it was invalid. So why do you think we should be taking it any more seriously in your case.

If you want a serious examination of Sakura scum make an actual case …

--

MoI/Ank/Majiffy are my scumreads

So you are convinced that the only viable wagons up until recently are both on scum (myself and Ank) and think Majiffy is scum who spent every minute of yesterday desperately trying to lynch Town Creature?

Titus

- talk to me again a little more on your Vifam read again. Because I’ve been letting him slide on being generally weak as Town and seeing posts like the above which just serves to take uncontroversial positions is making me want to dig deeper into your thoughts on Vifam.

Majiffy being upset after we lynched scum D1 because we didn't lynch Creature is so childish

The lack of outrage about mastin doing the exact same things I find interesting …

--

If I wanted to dismantle it I wouldve just gone /unvote "I want to hear from this slot first". But I wanted it lynched instead. You dont achieve that if people stop caring about the wagon because someone has gone for a long vla so urgency was needed. It worked and it forced your hand.

This response is lol-worthy. You staged yourself to have a “principled stance” (which would have been bullshit but that is beside the point) to unvote and not return to bussing Gin. And presented it in a way that was tactically presented to make everyone Town second guess pushing the wagon through. The fact that Spiffeh and Mastin now are saying that blackmail was going on it their PT to stop the wagon only strengthens this a scum-tactic. Good Town players want to avoid needless hammering without a claim if they have any doubts about the wagon. With both you and mastin working hard to undermine the wagon you probably had every hope you would save your Watch-proof partner. Too bad for you I saw through your scum motivated play and pushed forward.

Or.....a nice wifom defence for you

It’s almost as if you were scum who banked on this line of attack … oh wait you are.

Town:
Gorkington
Rem and Ram
Sakura Hana
Rick and Andrea
Vifam
mastina
Vecna

Most likely town:
Creature

Group of vague Null / scumleans
Titus
Majiffy
BigYoshiFan
Spiffeh
Nahdia

Scum
Ankamius
MagnaofIllusion

So this is nice because it can be mined for where he is slotting his two partners.

One probably is in the “Vague Null / Scumreads” set and probably someone he hasn’t really addressed much like Yoshi or Spiffeh.

The other is almost certainly up in his Town list. Vifam and Sakura look like the best candidates in that group unless one of my top Town reads has me snowed.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So Spiffeh let’s talk –

LOL where the fuck is this coming from?

Please elaborate

I have a hard time believing you think this is somehow out of the blue. I’ve had some concern with you since early on. 2303 should have made that clear to you – the way you Town read me prior to that post didn’t sit right with my gut. As did some of your reads – Gork as not obv Town being the most egregious before Gin’s lynch.

Today your attack on R&R as not pretty clearly Town also hits my scumdar pretty hard. As does your dalliance with “SAD basically left a Last Will” at 3590. That reads to me as scum who knew that I’d be a viable mislynch after SAD’s end of Day posting and wanted to fuel that fire.

As for why I could see your vote as scum – the way you handled beeboy / Gin looks like soft distancing to me. You ISO is filled with “Hey beeboy could be scum” statements and then back-aways under the umbrella of “my read is constantly changing on him” or something similar. But never any vote to help pressure the slot. In fact you called out Sakura at 3248 for not pushing the wagon strong enough.

Then after Gin’s replacement you have literally nothing to say until the point you vote at 3215.

Maybe I’m wrong in my assessment but I expect Town Spiffeh who had a correct read on Beeboy scum to be more useful in pushing that read. Enough to voice my thoughts even if you aren’t my strongest read (Vecna of course).

[MagnaofIllusion]

No means no Gork ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Oh how quaint .. Vecna’s 4438 is pure “oh I totally didn’t know I was L-1 how did this happen” LAMISTing scum crap.

--

UNVOTE:

hhhhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Why Nahdia … whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy??????

Scum was on L-1 and ready to be hammered and you let him off the hook.

Especially after that scummy Appeal to Fear he posted in the PT …

--

LOOOOOOOL
Look at this scum counter wagon ono Veca that's fking funny Anyone who doesn't vote Ank is going back into my sort pile
~Andrea

So Maria … why don’t you point out who the scum are pushing that coutnerwagon? I’d really like to hear that analysis from your head and your head only.

No Firebringers allowed for this response.

--

And what are your thoughts on Ankamius?

Town read from his behavior around my wagons yesterday and today. He has no reason as scum to Whiteknight my Day 1 wagon as it was just basically 4 votes. And today he had ample chance to hop onto me when pressure was rising on him and didn’t. He didn’t choose the path of “Save myself don’t care about prior reads”.

I mean you've made some throwaway comments yeah but the majority of your focus has been on people like SAD and Vecna. If you think I might be scum why haven't you engaged me on it before now? I'm almost universally town read up to this point and people have been steadily coming out of the woodwork to scum read me, so yeah I am starting to have a problem with it.

Um I have been engaging you. What do you think those questions about your reads that I have found odd are?

The reaction here “I’m almost Universally Town read” feels off to me. Going to have to look over Defcon and Thing to see if it indeed an alignment indicator for you.

mastina and Sakura can both confirm that SAD stressed that he wanted his opinion out there in case he died. I've actually been extremely fucking transparent with my thoughts on you throughout the game so I don't know where you get the idea that I am scum trying to pull a fast one and make you a viable mislynch??? It's not like I've been just sitting back or sheeping SAD's read on you, so this is a really shit conclusion to draw.

You haven’t been “sheeping his read” but the post in question reads to me as a way to passively support SAD’s read without actively attacking me. Do you dispute that perception I have?

There were always bigger fish to fry than beeboy. I was convinced SAD was scum for the first half of the day and pretty much spent the second half of the day catching up after my V/LA. After my catch up I made it pretty clear that I was lost and had no strong scum reads so I felt it would be more productive to try to dismantle wagons I felt were on town (i.e. Creature, R&R).

So you spent Day 1 dismantling wagons you felt were on Town including R&R? Then why in the hell are you going out of your way to dismiss those players who are making Town reads on R&R for their claim? That seems counterproductive if you still read them as Town. And I don’t see any reason for you to scum read them from Night actions that we know of (Them specifically giving you a Watch to use which is a powerful tool in the hands of Town). Do you think scum R&R would hand Town you that sort of tool as opposed to finding a Town read in their partners to use?

What do you feel about the rest of what I've provided? You often fall victim to confbias when pressuring people, but I have a tough time seeing how you wouldn't be able to recognize that this is my town game all things considered.

Well I don’t feel I’m really pressuring you all that strongly at this point so I’m not sure why you think my thoughts are confirmbias. You were Null to me after Day 1. Enough stuff I could see from a Scum perspective that I can’t see you as obv-Town. Today hasn’t changed that so far. This whole exchange between us is how I hope to get clarity and solidify my read on you.

Can you guys stop making me wall post

Can you guys stop making me wall post

Because Majiffy is not some newb. He’s been around long enough to understand the dynamics of playing scum. And one of those first rules is “Don’t burn credibility on lynches that will not need help in the long term”. Creature is not a hard target in general. The pressure he got yesterday despite the many meta-Town reads show that. If you think Creature is a mislynch Majiffy does himself no favors by double and tripling down on his pressure on the slot in the face of many people saying “Creature is Town” and calling him out for tunneling on Creature.

It reminds me of how Day 2 turned out in Open 633 in regards to RadiantCowbells. He’s spent the day fighting to get SnarkySnowman lynched basically on OMGUS reasons while I tried to get Scum Ranger flipped. Lo and behold SS flipped Town (which was my read). At that point I didn’t know for certain I was correct on Ranger but I was fairly certain RC was just bad Town. He leveraged his reputation in the game to mislynch a perennial easy target.

I think the same things applies here if you think Creature is Town.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Keep twisting my words boy. Fascinating how youre suddenly completely subscribing to Titus logic that im scum by association with Mastina. Yet you fail to see the obvious error in that way that if were coordinating to stop the lynch, then why did I not just simply unvote for more time?

I DIDNT NEED TO PUT MYSELF IN THE SPOTLIGHTS BY DOING THE DEADLINE THING.

Speaking of twisting of words - my response never says "I agree with Titus that Mastin is scum". Never happened. What I did say? That your "oh god hammer without a claim or I'm totally not voting there today" was specifically designed to get Town who don't know Gin's alignment (aka not you) to second guess the wagon. And that it worked in conjunction with mastin's PT blackmail (which Gin likely told you about, of course) as another lever to let Gin lurk out the lynch.

And the bolded is the same sort of WIFOM defense you just dinged me on. Funny how it is scummy coming from me but Town coming from you, huh?

[MagnaofIllusion]

cough
pronouns

PEdit: Magna

Sorry. It is going to take me time to re-write my brain given that you recently changed it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

The hood post and the lack of a claim both rub me the wrong way though.

Then focus on the Hood post and talk it over with me - you agree that he's just laying on a guilt trip to Creature there with direct lies about "MoI will mislynch you next"?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Spiffeh

Having looked over Defcon and Thing Mafia you can consider this point moot as I don't think your use of that phrase in context is alignment indicative.

The reaction here “I’m almost Universally Town read” feels off to me. Going to have to look over Defcon and Thing to see if it indeed an alignment indicator for you.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Gork

– here is your bulletpoint with quick summary reasons I think Vecna is scum. Very high level overview. I don’t know the cool hip phrases kids today use so I can’t really talk to you like you are 12. Sorry.

1. Initial Response to Mass Claim in PT – I’ve hit this over already but his reaction to the concept of a mass Neighborhood claim feel very fabricated. The whole song and dance about “Other games it could help scum” falls very flat if Vecna was willing to do the minimum of research.

2. Weak Parked Vote on Yume’s slot – I’ve already explained how the Pick Your Power game (1557 for reference) scum Vecna made a show of yelling for a quick lynch Day 1 while idling his vote on a vanity wagon and I scum read him for it. I see signs of similar play here.

3. Progression on Majiffy Day 1 – Threw some early shade his way and then backpedaled into a “Hey, let’s buddy” plan. When that didn’t work he yo-yoed between calling Majiffy

4. Playing the “Too Scummy to Be Scum” card – multiple times saying “Would I be this obvious if I were scum” or similar statements.

5. Behavior around Gin lynch – been hashed clearly today.

6. Lack of Actual Game Solving – see 3710 for a refresher today.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be V/LA from 1:00pm EDT today until Monday morning for my usual weekend V/LA.

Can we just get Vecna’s lynched and move on to PoEing the disheartened remaining scum please? Two votes is not too much to ask given how Vecna’s playing the “Oh, woe is me” AtE card. Also given how fond Vecna is of accusing players of fabrications –

SAD who was scumreading Titus/MoI for most of day1 is the nightkill

This is a straight up lie – SAD was not scum reading me “most of Day 1”.

@Maria

– I wasn’t asking for my health – who are the scum pushing the Vecna coutner-wagon?

--

I'm not white knighting Vecna.
Idc if he gets lynched, i just think he'll flip town.
I'm questioning YOUR sudden hop in right after i hopped off.

It feels like it's designed to make me look bad.

Um, whut? How can Yoshi voting what you think is a mislynch right after you unvoted it be a planned move for Yoshi to make you look bad?

--

Thing is he's not even pushing the Creature lynch at this point and is just sheeping and using the fact that no one will listen to him about Creature as an excuse

Well what do you reasonable expect to be a Town reaction to yesterday from Majiffy? I’m 100% serious in this request. You seem to be scum-reading me in part for my continued push on Vecna. So you seem to be presenting a “damned if you do damned if you don’t” stance – I’m suspect for continuing to push and likewise Majiffy is suspect for not continuing a strong push.

Im obv town

Insert best LOL meme here …

--

And did I mention, one of the reviewers for this game is TellTaleHeart?

This is a bad add-on to your otherwise cogent stance. Spyro the Dragon Mafia is only the most recent example but TTH’s Mod meta is completely different from Anti’s. TTH favors higher overall-power games for Town with compensating Power for scum. Completely different Mod meta and not a valid point at all for saying “Well TTH was once on the NRG so they have the same beliefs as Antihero”.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So I'll read back but given that the Vecna wagon dissolved due to his AtE crap and lurking I find myself unmotivated.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Oh and I see TWIE replaced in to Rem and Ram. That's good as I don't have to worry about his lack of game-play and having to parse whether it is from bad Town or bad scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna how do you feel about a Yoshi lynch?

Meh. I wouldn't fight too hard if it came to it as I have some concerns from Day 1 and the way he opened today. However Vecna is escaping the noose again and it's really making me a sad panda.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well analyze those posts.

1. Both are "Do it now or else" ultimatums that don't help convince those who don't know Gin's flip. In fact they do the opposite ... make people second guess.
2. His "Oh the game is too long" while being the seventh most prolific poster AKA a large part of the reason the game is so long. That's straight from his scum play-book ... complaining about something while helping to foster the thing he is complaining about.

Neither one of those is very Town oriented thought processes ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

oh moi is in this game.

moi whos town?

Me
Gorkington
Titus
Majiffy
Probably Mastina even thought she is dead wrong on Vecna
Probably Rick and Andrea (although Maria is doing her best to poison my read on the slot that Firebringer gave me)

[MagnaofIllusion]

Idk BYF is blowing up in the hood and It kind of looks town to me

Yoshi

– Any reason you aren’t giving your all in the main thread as well?

--

lets lynch these people.

Again why I said I was glad you replaced into a slot I didn’t have to decide if you bad play was scum motivated or not …

--

I think MoI is a better lynch but I dont wanna engage him

Honestly hoping someone else would do it

Yeah I’ll support a lynch here if it also develops. This nebulous “MoI is a better lynch” crap combined with the soft “Oh, Vecna could flip Town or scum not sure” could be a partner wanting to not look bad on Vecna’s flip.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Twie can you stop with the drama crap?

Don’t worry too much about it Titus. It’s just TWIE. He can just ramble on about whatever he wants as long as he provides his Inventions for sensible Town players to make use of.

[MagnaofIllusion]

[MagnaofIllusion]

Oh I know, Im almost even inclined to just self-hammer but meh.

Hi Jiffy, if I yell CREATURE FLASHWAGON very loud and vote there, will you sheep me?

The only proper response to this and the rest of his "AtE woe is me" posting is the following -



Someone step up and make this long overdue scum lynch happen ....

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Mastina

This is pretty clearly the best vote for today. Nahdia can talk about our discussion in the PT overnight. Pretty much the only acceptable votes for me after the flip yesterday are Mastina, Sakura, Spiffeh, Vifam and Creature.

I haven't really read today but skimmed enough to say the following -

Mastina spent 2 days working hard with faulty analysis and strong-arm tactics to save not one but two scum. She dies today. I don't care what PT bullshit you want to claim means she's cleared. Sorry not subscribing to your newletter. Personally yesterday I was thinking she was probably Town doing another stupid "Fake Rolecop Inventor" gambit. Learning that is actually her role according to Sakura means I want her head on a platter.

I will need to dig into Sakura's claim more because the whole "Oh, I totally should have not doubled up with my actions oopps obv-Town died teehee" sales pitch feels icky to the core.

Majiffy - 3 (Spiffeh, Creature, Vifam)

Also this voting block which all happens to be in my scum pool? Suspect as fuck.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also as an addendum - the fact that Vecna scum was so against my "There is going to be a Town PT" from the outset (which ironically was what first twigged me to him) should make it clear that we have at least one all Town PT and scum are at least doubled up somewhere. So the whole "Our PT is a Masonry" line from a PT with a flipped scum is bullshit.

[MagnaofIllusion]

How many times am I gonna have to quote this

As many times as it is going to take until it set in to you that it is pointless WIFOM bullshit ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

One last thing -

If we lynch Majiffy/BYF/R&A/Ank I think we win

If somehow we don't lynch Mastina today this absolutely goes ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

So yeah … not moving my vote today.

Mastina had defended scum for two consecutive days. And now the narrative is “Oh, the only way this unfolded is scum had to mega bus let’s getem boys!”? No. I appreciate the “Refuge in Audacity” angle but no the concept that the best course of action after scum is lynched on consecutive day is “Burn all the Witches on the wagons!” is so bad it boggles my mind that she hasn’t gotten lynched already today.

No – we are lynching her today. She is not “better left til later”. You know who was identified as scum in Stephen Universe by Day 3 (right as I replaced in) and let go for various reasons (including Role claim and being a “Better contributor later if Town”)? Reasonably Rational. Scum who almost won the game. Mastina is playing that exact role right now – and to hell if I’m going to end up in the Dead Thread screaming at the remaining living players to hang her scummy ass. Nope not happening.



I mean I could pore over her tons of spammy nonsense and pull out all the inconsistencies from a Town perspective but fuck that. She’s spamming for survival while pretending to be all “I’m OK with my lynch if it gets you morons to pay attention sheeple”.

Votes. This is a requirement not a request.

--

I used both my jailkeep and watch on TWIE, i thought scum would've wanted to get rid of that ASAP but I was wrong, he wasnt visited last night, the rolecop im keeping it on my neighborhood coz i dont want to help scum find inventors with either possible result.

So do you normally mishandle PRs this badly as Town Sakura? I have zero experience with you (unless you have alts I am unaware of) but that was terrible to the Nth Degree if you actually took that course of action.

--

idk, I hopped on BYF to see if I could sort him, but my main intent was Vecna being lynched.

When I wanted to hop back on Vecna wagon, he was already at L-1 and I really don't like hammering.

So someone being off it doesn't mean they were pushing for a counterwagon or opposing the lynch.

The fact that Creature is bending over backwards to say “You can’t suspect me for helping a counter-wagon to flipped scum I totally wanted him lynched” while pretty much no-one is pressuring them significantly makes me want to lynch him.

But Mastina is still alive so that will have to wait.

--

Why

Because you parked your vote on Town (me) and while soft selling that mayyyybeeee Vecna could be scum all day long and then made the weakest hop on the wagon when momemtum was already locked.

And that your play is terrible in general. Sorry if that offends you but ….

Now with the claim you dropped – as long as it isn’t counter-claimed you can live since that claimed role is Town. But that’s the only reason.

--

MoI: Creature is town

As I told Creature overnight – if there is a second scum in our Hood he’s it. And that if he continued to post as he did in there I was inches from voting him on policy of being useless.

Two scum are down. Creature’s “Oh, he’s terrible spammaster C as Town” get out of jail Meta Free card has expired.

--

Do you really think what you're seeing here is my scum game?

Ask yourself that, honestly.

Majiffy this should be your clue in to vote Mastina. She’s basically bending over backwards to shoe-horn a moronic theory into a fact-pattern that doesn’t support her conclusion and is giving ZERO credence to actual posting in the game.

She isn’t interested in actually finding scum. She’s interested in getting as many mislynches as she can with her allotted time in the thread.

Which should be over today.

[MagnaofIllusion]

SakHan is probably one.

Other's probably either TWIE or Nahdia.

Would say Vifam but roleclaim and all. That'll be obvious enough in time.

You do know that if Creature is scum he only has 1 partner who remains alive, right?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Idfk what do you want from me? I'm giving my scumreads

What I want is acknowledgement that beside Creature there is only one scum.

If those are your reads as the pool of potential Creature scum partner reads - great.

However the way you phrased it implied multiple partners.

Who has been floating a 5-man team? I don't recall seeing anything.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Anyone that has me or mastina as a top lynch option for today is just bad at mafia

There's literally no other way around it

[MagnaofIllusion]

Titus

– Do the smart thing and ignore TWIE. He isn’t ever going to be helpful hunting scum so engaging him on his pointless posting is a waste of your typing time.

But sell me on your Yoshi read. My issue there is a sort viable counter-wagon to scum Vecna formed late in the day there and just stalled. And Vecna never moved to vote Yoshi.

BigYoshiFan - 4 (Sakura Hana, mastina, Ankamius, Creature)

I don’t think it is possible that scum have a more powerful role than Strongman left. So I can’t see Vecna not voting there in an attempt to save himself even if for a Night. Do you think that was a cred-grab attempt for Yoshi as a Hail Mary endgame slot for them?

--

I was directly asked for who are Creatures partners

I get that … Ank did ask you. Again … I just wanted clarity on your understanding of the game-state.

--

I know im bad at night actions as anything other than vig or cop, this applies to both alignments, which was also one of the main reasons i asked for suggestions, i was really on the fence about asking because at the time i wasnt townreading either of my hoodmates, and i was really nervous of Dragon Age mafia repeating all over again.

Can you walk me through the Dragon Age Mafia reference?

And why did start of Day make both your PT makes much more Town to you?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Titus you're doing that thing where you form narratives to fit what you think and not the other way around

MoI is doing it too

It is very concerning that two of the towniest players left itg are thinking this way

No. You don't get to fucking peddle that bullshit and calling mastina obv-Town when that IS EXACTLY WHAT THE FUCK SHE IS DOING ..

I DON'T GIVE A FLYING FUCK WHETHER YOU THINK YOUR HOOD IS CONFTOWN ALL DAY EVERY DAY.

MASTINA IS PEDDLING BULLSHIT IN A MANNER THAT DEFYS TOWN ORIENTED PERSPECTIVE. AND FUCKING DEFENDED SCUM DAY 1 AND DAY 2.

NOPE SHE DIES AND IF I HAVE TO EITHER POST ALL THE REST OF MY POSTS IN ALL-CAPS I WILL DO IT UNTIL I DIE TO THE UPCOMING NK OR GET FORCE REPLACED.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I should probably start doing something useful but my anger at the idiocy displayed today is preventing me from doing that

Why start now? It's not like you helped lynch scum Day 1 or Day 2 ....

[MagnaofIllusion]

Can we do BYF today and I promise to get Mastina lynched tomorrow?

I'll think about it. Frankly the combination of Spiffeh and mastina is making me see red. I'm going to take some time away from the thread.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Because if you're trying to use this as a means to town read everyone off your wagon then you should stop

Yeah, leave the ludicrous reasons to Town read people to Spiffeh regarding his hood ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI your play today has been shit

I don't care if you were a driving force behind Vecna

You're scum reading mastina for "being mastina" and conveniently ignoring an extremely fucking valid reason to town read her based on HARD FACTS

Stop taking pot shots on something when YOU'RE in the wrong

It's not a good look

Nope sorry King Spiffeh but you don't get to sit upon high and issue edicts and commands. Here are some facts for your.

1. Mastina tried to dismantle not one but two scum lynches Day 1 and Day 2. This is pretty indisputable.
2. Mastina's theory today is not aligned with any reasonable Town position. It's meant to at best help her survive when by all rights her play Day 1 and Day 2 looks very much like scum partner play. Do you disagree with this? If it were not for your little circle-jerk PT "We are all ConfTown Masons to each other" stance would you be Townreading any other slot with play profile Day 1 and Day 2 like hers?
3. Firebringer already pointed out several reasonable points regarding why your "We are clear Town" stance isn't valid. You may choose to ignore that but from my outside perspective there are some very reasonable points there and your "People are dumb" stance is pretty bad.

So please stow your "YOU ARE IN THE WRONG" grand-standing.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Mastina defending scum back to back doesn't necessarily mean she's scum she could just be town who is wrong

Sure. But this is Burden of Proficiency territory. Mastina doesn't get to play in the most Pro-Scum manner D1 and D2 and open today with the stances she does. Players like SnarkySnowman would warrant that sort of consideration. Mastina is far and away not SnarkySnowman.

[MagnaofIllusion]

We have enough players who look strongly town to win this via POE imo

Then you shouldn't be against a Mastina lynch if you really believe that. Because there exists no universe where Mastina is "strongly Town" this game.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna, don't piss people off unless necessary.

Yeah, I'm calmed down a bit ... I'll behave as long as the Bullshit Train doesn't come roaring back into the station.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I think they're scummier players than Mastina, she should be lynched if we get to LYLO tho

Then you need to name each and everyone one of those players and why they are scummier than the player who spent D1 and D2 fighting not one but two scum lynches.

Because the list I have in my reads right now only had 5 names coming to Day and you were one of them. So I only have really 3 other players I saw as good lynches today.

[MagnaofIllusion]

you literally already thought mastin was town who was wrong on vecna.

you literally said those words.

your stance today doesnt make any logical sense.

jsyk.

It's like my thoughts changed overnight in review after Vecna as scum was confirmed by Mod flip and then Mastina came out with the batshit stupid theory today which solidified my thoughts.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Oh King Spiffeh? After the whining about “It’s not a good look on you” why no direct response to 5507? Are you afraid to address the fact that your stance doesn’t hold up to scrutiny when looking at all the factors other than “Lol, we’re PT Masons”?

--

I think the answer is self-evident and you're wasting my time

When are you going to vote your stated scumread, Creature, of whom I am building a wagon on?

Creature isn’t a clear scum-read … that portion you have wrong. He’s my last of 5 read that is half because he is spammy and generally useless to scum-hunting. While back to back scum lynches does afford us some room for mislynches I’m not eager to just jump at my weakest scum read this early in the day.

Build your wagon to at least 4 votes and we can talk again.

I settled yesterday I'm not really in the mood to settle today.

This already been mentioned … but WTF? You are literally complaining about lynching scum instead of Creature yesterday?

Do you expect that Creature as Scum would let you live last Night after a second scum lynch and you calling for his head at all times?

--

Why can't mafia have a roleblocker capable of stopping either the jailkeep or watch?

While I don’t agree with Spiffeh’s “I’m ConfTown” posting this is oddball ..

How much power to defeat Town PR Inventions do you actually expect scum to have?

--

I think lynching all of {Rick and Andrea, BYF, Majiffy, Nahdia} wins us the game

So are you saying you are scum and this is a series of mislynches that will win you the game?

Because Nahdia looks pretty Town for her movement around Vecna yesterday. And the fact you are championing Creature as Town over her makes little sense when analyzing Day 2.

And I’m not scum reading either R&A or Majiffy. So that leaves maybe Yoshi as scum on this list … and even then I’m not sold on Yoshi being scum with Vecna given Vecna’s role and the fact that Yoshi looks like a terrible Endgame player choice for scum.

Winning Paragon is literally worthless if you guys don't blindly follow me on reads I am confident on

Why should anyone care about a Banner when your play Day 1 and Day 2 looks like nothing sheep-worthy?

--

MagnaOfIllusion: Mastina has little to no influence over the game anymore. Lynching her is not an immediate priority and we can afford to brute force as much useful info as we can since we're in a good spot right now. Vote BigYoshiFan

Ok so we lynch Yoshi and he flips Town. What information have you brute forced with that lynch?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Vifam

– Have you selected your JK Invention target? I’m not voting Yoshi until you confirm you have.

Like you guys really think Mastina blackmailed to save Gin, defended Vecna D2, then went on to pull a sick gambit that could easily have blown up in her face

You mean a gambit that if it succeeds possibly gives her an pass to endgame? In the current game-state where scum in a very tight spot and need some solid luck to have a chance?

I just want to be sure you understand the situation when you ask questions like this …

--

Nahdia becomes locktown for timing switch from BYF->Vecna
Mastina's less town for the grandstanding way she moved off my wagon onto his as Vecna started being the dominant wagon
The scumpool is really not that big right now; just removing one element from it is a large amount of info in of itself.

Essentially, I believe that there's only 3 possible scum right now if my read on the gamestate is correct {BigYoshiFan, Spiffeh, Rick and Andrea}. Out of those three, BigYoshiFan is the only one with a significant amount of 'controversy', having been an up and coming wagon to compete with confscum's. The game's essentially over if he flips scum and at the very least, there's one more living slot that's blatantly town if BYF flips town.

Either way, I only see town's chances going up with a BYF lynch.

Ok good … I just wanted to see that you actually had things you thought could be taken from a Yoshi lynch if it is a mislynch.

--

Tell me why his playstyle dramatically changed at the start of the day compared to the rest of the game?

I don’t see a dramatic difference in him honestly. Lots of “Why oh why suspect me”, lots of “what do you think about Issue / Player X” while providing little commentary himself, occasional bouts of spamming punctuated with lurking. Are you picking up on something I have missed?

--

Because you made it clear that you won't consider any other opinions.

SAD was absolutely right about you. You arbitrarily select people to scum read and tunnel them into oblivion without ever reconsidering. You being right about Vecna has amplified this behavior to the point where you feel the need to insult my play just because I disagree with you.

I'm not gonna bother responding to your post and clog up the thread when you have no chance of actually considering it.

Well please don’t bother trying to paint me as not providing reasons when I provide several salient points and you go “Well, you aren’t changing your mind I’m not addressing them”.

Really you are engaging in exactly what you are trying to portray Titus and myself as doing – being completely closed minded. I gave you solid reasons to scum read Mastin and asked you a very important question about whether you would scum read a different player with the same D1 and D2 profile. And you go “Nah, you are too closed minded”.

I repeat – Mastin’s play from Day 1 and Day 2 is overwhelmingly Pro-Scum. I’ve yet to see anyone argue that point. So the question remains – is whatever happened in closed PT that I am not privy to enough to reverse my read? The answer is – no, not with the evidence presented. Sakura has already stated that she didn’t ever actively acknowledge your suggestions. So suggesting Mastin is Lock Town for doing something that Sakura herself says she didn’t actually read isn’t swaying to me from two days of protecting scum with every ounce of energy Mastin had.

Scum are in a bad spot already. You act as if they can “play it safe” and have a hope of winning when what have to be their most effective roles already toast. Scum are going to have to “Go Big” and risk losing for a chance to win.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ive already sent the jailkeep

VOTE: BYF

If by some situation I die tonight over other targets and you don't power-lynch Mastin ...

I don't know what I will do but I'll find something really annoying for each and every Town player.

Scum get a pass because that's their job.

[MagnaofIllusion]

what the fuck even is this.

It's explaining to Creature how using the Jailkeep to clear players of being the final scum results in a PoE no matter what is Yoshi is scum.

I know it is hard but try to keep up.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Fine, just don't make that a pass for the entire game.

Hey Creature ... why are you Town? Why aren't you scum playing your Town meta of "spammy bad"?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Fine, just don't make that a pass for the entire game.

Hey Creature ... why are you Town? Why aren't you scum playing your Town meta of "spammy bad"?

This wasn't for fun Creature ....

[MagnaofIllusion]

Weekend V/LA ended up going longer due to work yesterday.

Firstly I wanted to confirm I received the JK Invention yesterday and used it on Vifam per the publicly agreed plan. Creature and Nahdia both knew of this in the PT as I claimed it right after getting it.

VOTE: Mastina

Again I don’t understand why this is such a struggle for most people. Yesterday continued the trend of her playing Pro-scum … despite having a “solid list” of players who could be scum she decided to vote Creature … for reasons unstated … and then just parked her vote there the rest of the day. If her reasoning was a solid as she claimed Day 3 why suddenly sideline her vote on someone not on her scum list? A reminder – look at posts like 5226 where Mastina is supposedly giving mucho efforto in finding scum pairs. Creature is not in the possible pairs list. That’s not the only post where Creature is not listed as possible scum … her whole Day 3 ISO is filled with that indication. Then 5324 comes around with nothing backing it.

Next thing motivating my vote her way – the logic on Sakura. Night 2 Sakura gets inventions and Mastina claims Sakura’s survival is evidence of an all-Town PT. Night 3 Sakura dies with claimed invention and Mastina now claims that death further clears the PT members? Um, whut?

Finally we get the half-hearted “Oh, I guess Sakura was a good kill target but I gave her the Rolecop anyway” excuse. Doesn’t pass the smell test. Why not give it to Spiffeh if the PT is all Town? Why not to one of her many “Can’t be scum” players outside the PT in an effort to make sure her Invention is useful? So far said Rolecop hasn’t been used N1 or N3 due to Mastina’s questionable choice in Invention targets.

If you're planning on nightkilling them, why the fuck do you even bother handing it out to them?

Oh, I don’t know … perhaps to make sure you handed a Role to a generally Town read player while simultaneously making sure Town gets no benefit from it? I mean that is the most reasonable explanation as to why your Rolecop has been used a whopping 33% of the time possible.

(Unrelated, but I thought worth mentioning: WHY SPIFFEH IS NOW CONFTOWN: Unless TWIE told his neighborhood he handed Spiffeh the watch, then Spiffeh could if scum have killed TWIE and then simply neglected to have claimed receiving the watch. He did claim it though, which is reason for him to be town.)

So you think TWIE didn’t bother to notify his PT of his Watch Inventor target just to give Spiffeh the chance to kill him if Spiffeh is scum? Nope … the more logical thought is that TWIE told his PT about his target and this is just an attempt to Town read someone with absurdly bad logic.

--

mastina should give the rolecop to TWIE who is almost certainly town AND gets a result unless scum sacrifice themselves. mastina knows this and gave the rolecop to Sakura anyway.

This. Especially with all the crowing Mastina was doing about being dead right on the NK target N1 and N2.

--

Magna tryna tell me last night in the neighborhood that Vecna's voting patterns on day 1 essentially cleared Ank, but I don't see it at all. Vecna didn't hammer Ank despite having the opportunity; he only joined her wagon after she was no longer at L-1. Spell out for me why Ank shouldn't be so low.

Well it was Day 2 .. but that said … let’s actually look at how wagons formed.

While it is accurate that Vecna didn’t hammer Ank he was in no danger of being lynched when Ank was at L-1. See 4037 for the period where Ank was at L-1. Vecna at that stage had a whopping 2 votes. However when Ank’s wagon begins to fall apart Vecna does jump on to keep it viable (4129). And at that point Vecna is still not under any significant pressure.

Likewise when Yoshi (Town) got a significant wagon (4812) Vecna doesn’t fuel that wagon either despite being the other viable wagon at that stage.

So let’s look at the big picture – Vecna didn’t push on Town Yoshi when Vecna was a viable wagon against Yoshi. The reason I’m guessing – he didn’t want to look like opportunistic scum trying to save his own skin when Yoshi flipping Town would have made him look bad.

Vecna staying off Ank when he would have been the hammer I think falls right into the same category. Early in Day 2 Ank was getting heavy pressure and Vecna probably didn’t want to be tagged with pushing a quick mislynch. However as the wagon starts to peel off he does eventually move there to coincide with his “scum read” on Ank. If Ank was scum I think it is clear he’d be a less powerful role than Vecna’s Strongman.

I think the more reasonable conclusion to make here is not that Vecna was bussing Ank and chose not to hammer for the Town Cred of being on two consecutive scum lynches but that Ank is Town is Vecna didn’t want to catch more suspicion for hammering home an early lynch on Town and then got bit in the butt by his choice.

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Too much makes sense if both RickandAndrea and MagnaOfIllusion are the remaining two scum.

Yeah I know you are 50% off base with this and probably 100% so the question remains – why does it “make too much sense”?

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I'm still at the PoE list of {R&A, Nahdia, Majiffy} and neither of the recent flips really change that?

I want to see if Titus and MoI will be adjusting their reads based on this new information or continue to push their own ridiculous narratives just because they think they're all that after lynching Vecna

R&A -> Majiffy -> Nahdia

If I had to extend this list I'd probably include MoI/Creature

There is something really wrong with this list of 5 suspects. Internet Cookie to the person who first points it out …

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD my apologies but I have to replace out. I thought I could scrape together the time to finish my last games on site but it was not in the cards.