Micro 792: Three in One (Day 6)

[Mathdino]

Hardclaim not tracker.

Tracker claim on D1 is optimal strategy here much like 1-shot BP claim was optimal in the last setup. Something something I posted this in mafia discussion, I feel like you guys trust my setup optimisation by now regardless.

Tracker should claim with doc/JK protecting them. If no tracker claims, we've narrowed down the setup considerably.

Also, unless we want to spend 3 different games arguing about Not_Mafia and Bambi and how to read them (combined with the fact that Bambi provably increases mafia winrate and Not_Mafia's reads are essentially = random), we should policy lynch one of them today or tomorrow just in case town loses.

[Mathdino]

hahahaha
i am completely unsurprised at the newbie listmod's disapproval of this strategy

[Mathdino]

eh if everyone but him claims not tracker it's just astronomically unlikely that there's a tracker at all

it's still fine and tracker can still claim and request protection

[Mathdino]

VOTE: Sextuple Not_Mafia

[Mathdino]

hardclaim loved

[Mathdino]

yeah, public, just with a different playstyle i think

like gigabyte/katyusha

[Mathdino]

you were trying to make a clever joke?

[Mathdino]

i can confirm that the only times i have ever tried to keep you alive

were
1. when i was scum
2. when you were scum snowing me

[Mathdino]

fantastic page 2 guys

i rest my case
bambi or not_mafia is the kill

also bambi you better hardclaim right now whether or not you're the tracker
i'm not dealing with your shit when massclaim hits

[Mathdino]

bambi or not_mafia is the

kill

lynch

freudian slip

[Mathdino]

i have a factional vig PT with NSG so

[Mathdino]

inb4 "ONGOING GAMES"

anyway bambi's anti-town potential has just been significantly reduced, congrats

this setup is basically "lynch one scum, avoid letting scum kill power roles, auto win on D3"

[Mathdino]

A major problem I see is that, as Tracker, I think optimal play is to claim and publicly ask for protection.

As tracker, you know that you're paired with one of:
B. Cop or Jailkeeper
C. Doctor

In the case of Doctor, just play Follow The Cop with the Tracker.

In the case of Cop/JK, ask for protection. From scum's perspective, they don't know if Tracker is paired with Cop or Jailkeeper. As such, they hae no incentive to kill the tracker for fear of wasting their kill. This means either Tracker gets to be a confirmed protected named townie (assuming no counterclaims) or gets to be 1 of 2 investigatives, which is a fantastic buff for town.

consider that if we start the claim and don't stop, it gives scum a road map for who to kill

[Mathdino]

if i wanted to blatantly disregard consent i'd just fakeclaim tracker in my first post

fairly sure this playerlist can be reasoned with

no one has actually said why trackerclaim is a bad strategy

[Mathdino]

A1: Cop/Neapolitan - Scum get screwed if they fakeclaim tracker but at least they ensure that they don't hit two VT's N1 (which can cost them the game)
A2: JK/Doctor - Scum can safely claim tracker, neutralizing BOTH town PR's
A3: Cop/Doctor - Scum can safely claim tracker
B1: Cop/Tracker - Scum can kill the tracker N1
B2: JK/Tracker - Scum can hit the tracker N1, neutralizing BOTH town PR's and revealing the exact setup
B3: Neapolitan/Doctor - Scum will know the exact setup
C1: Cop/VT - Scum can safely claim tracker (and NEVER be counterclaimed)
C2: JK/VT - Scum can safely claim tacker (and NEVER be counterclaimed)
C3: Tracker/Doctor - Scum will know the exact setup

A. 1/3 probability of getting immediately fucked on claiming tracker is terrible. Also D1 fakeclaiming as scum is in general terrible. You get screwed the moment 1 TPR dies.

B. 50% chance scum CAN'T hit the tracker because JK will protect them. I don't believe tracker is in any way a useful enough role to justify trying to use their actual ability rather than as a named townie. Trackers don't get guilties.
Plus, tracker will know the exact setup faster than scum based on whether or not they get blocked.

C. 1/3 chance again of being completely fucked by fakeclaiming.

That basically throws the game to a 1/3 call in A or C, considering someone can directly counterclaim.

I also don't see disadvantage in scum knowing the exact setup. Rolecop will figure it out before town does. My goal is reducing the disparity between town knowledge and scum knowledge.

[Mathdino]

Well, that's one goal.

Honestly the biggest issue I see in newbie games is TPRs fucking dying on N1. Tracker claiming makes it much less likely they'll die imo. Assuming we lynch a VT today, that makes it a 80% chance scum hits another VT, which basically solves the game for us.

[Mathdino]

But if it's a Jailkeeper with the Tracker, I don't see how that helps the situation if they are jailed every night to stop the! From getting killed.

because tracker is a dumb useless role anyway and is more useful as an innocent child that can't die

Cop/neapolitan is already bad for scum. I don't think goon lynch followed by guaranteed PR NK is that bad of an outcome for scum, and I certainly think that the reward in the other two setups is worth it. (If a PR died after a tracker claimed D1 and somebody counterclaimed a different role, are you really saying you'd side with the counterclaimer?)

And scum can increase their odds in C by having the member they intend to have fakeclaim wait until most townies have claimed.

In any event, I'm with PenguinPower. Not participating.

Then why don't all scum D1 fakeclaim in newbie games?

Like, they already do that when they're run up to be lynched. But they don't out of the clear blue.

Exchanging one scum for a TPR on D1 gives us a 61% chance of winning with random shots, and that's just assuming that the remaining TPR doesn't get any useful results.

[Mathdino]

3 people willing to say they disagree with the strategy yet unwilling to discuss it in the MD

we're gonna have some fun conversations after this

the point is this, there are two scenarios

A. Tracker claims. What exactly is the disadvantage here?

B. Everyone claims not tracker. What exactly is the disadvantage here?

I'm running with the assumption that scum fakeclaiming tracker is just as suboptimal as it would be in any game.

[Mathdino]

I would also point out that if you're worried about scum fakeclaiming tracker, the solution is to strongarm people into a claiming order to ensure that they CAN'T just claim tracker at the end of the order.

[Mathdino]

because tracker is a dumb useless role anyway and is more useful as an innocent child that can't die

tracker is a cop after a scumflip, what are you talking about?

if we're at the point of getting a scumflip AND that tracker is actually able to get an investigation through (i.e. isn't shot literally that night)

scum already deserves to lose and would still lose even if the tracker did nothing

[Mathdino]

ok look if we're at 3 people disagreeing with the claiming then that's at least one townie i can blame if things go south here

i also think that pushback against optimal strategies (especially claiming strategies) more often comes from scum but w/e

who's scum guys

[Mathdino]

also if one of you actually is the tracker and you die at night don't blame me

[Mathdino]

Hard TR Bambi.

this is one of the things i hate to hear the most in a mafia game

are you at all familiar with any jaydragonking games

[Mathdino]

This doesn't come from scum imo.

Disagree

in fact that post is literally exactly what i would expect from scum-him

[Mathdino]

people townread jay more often when he's scum than when he's town

the primary way to get a lynch on him when he's scum is basically policy

[Mathdino]

You never townread anything I do as town even when I am town, Math.

that's because the majority of the games i have played with you, you were scum with a town PM

the one game i did hard townread you correctly was marked for death, when you had not yet established your hilariously anti-town shenanigans

but even in that game you straight up ignored me when i was confirmed town and speedlynched a lurker soooo

[Mathdino]

Thinking about it I have a theory about scumplay in this game but I'll hold it cos I wanna see if anyone plays like I would expect scum to

i actually think i know exactly what you're saying

but i would also play like that as town (if not more likely to)

and i think you know this about me

[Mathdino]

i am more likely to roll town than scum in both future games

bambietta's presence reduces my likely winrate

thus if we're going to lynch bambi at all it needs to be before lylo

[Mathdino]

i mean there's also the fact that town is less likely to win this game with bambi around but that's beside the point

like in a normal 9p i'd also be advocating for policy lynching bambi/N_M but less so

[Mathdino]

i am more likely to roll town than scum in both future games

bambietta's presence reduces my likely winrate

thus if we're going to lynch bambi at all it needs to be before lylo

Still afraid of my scum game that much, huh?

i'm actually significantly more afraid of your towngame

[Mathdino]

like i actually genuinely fear your towngame at this point

[Mathdino]

get me out of here

[Mathdino]

reads for bambi:

Bambi: policy lynchable
Cheeky: bad reads and hard townreads you, is scum pocketing you
Gamma: capable of faking gamesolving, probscum sucking up to me
northsidegal: has posted nothing game relevant, basically scumclaiming
Not_Mafia: policy lynchable with extreme prejudice (although should be kept around depending on how spicy his memes are)
PenguinPower: blanket disapproval of optimal claiming strategy is exactly the kind of scum pushback i get from my gamebreaking
RedFlavor: blatantly chainsaw defending/WKing not_mafia, deserves rope, probably scum
SomethingSmart: honestly he's scummy in every game i've played with him so

does that help at all

[Mathdino]

i am more likely to roll town than scum in both future games

bambietta's presence reduces my likely winrate

thus if we're going to lynch bambi at all it needs to be before lylo

Lol aren't we all more likely to roll town? I was going for a specific explanation that would come from town. This one's not it :/

if you expect me to play solely this game when there are explicitly 3 games in the mix...
i don't know how to make an underhanded reference about what you should expect of my play without breaking site rules
something something almost50 gets me

the only thing that is pro-town about me policy lynching bambi is that their presence reduces town winrate, and is more anti-town as the game goes on (scum has never lost a lylo with bambi present)

i fully expect this town to lynch them at some point considering how often they get lynched
and if they don't lynch them, i fully expect bambi to choose wrong in lylo

obviously lynching them now doesn't change the calculus much for this game, but it removes them from next game if town loses

bonus points if bambi rolled scum too

Dino is looking towards the future two games after this one, Cheeky. He'll take me and NotMaf being hung the first two as town so that even if town loses or something, he won't have to deal with us as potential scum in the future.

Yeah but he didn't say this specifically. What he said was scummy af. 1. He used rolling town as a reason. 2. He want's you lynched before LYLO which could mean you're not one of the first two people lynched who would be knocked out.

literally correct
i don't expect to be lynched D1 or D2, especially not in a playerlist 7/8 of which are experienced with me
i also expect lowkey expect town to lose
so we should make one of the first two lynches a straight policy lynch

[Mathdino]

Thinking about it I have a theory about scumplay in this game but I'll hold it cos I wanna see if anyone plays like I would expect scum to

i actually think i know exactly what you're saying

but i would also play like that as town (if not more likely to)

and i think you know this about me

Why do you think I'm talking specifically about you

math, did you ever answer this?

nah
i didn't think he was specifically talking about me
but i thought about what he was saying and i realised that it basically describes how i'm going to be playing this game (a play that i thought about before even joining)

[Mathdino]

i don't really like the idea of policy lynching just to set up for future games – it feels kind of weird, like playing towards a future wincondition or something. not even a future wincondition, but maybe even just sacrificing parts of this game to have a potentially better next game. i'd really rather just lynch scumreads.

doesn't it also assume that whoever we're policy lynching is on the losing team for this game?

i understand/respect that you feel this way but it does not sway me at all lol

policy lynches are justifiable in any context, they just happen to be even better in this setup

and yes it basically does: bambi/not_mafia are good at scum and are likely to win at scum if not lynched (which ensures they carry to next game)
however if they're both town, town also almost certainly loses because they're never getting nightkilled

like what's basically gonna happen is
N1. Mathdino dies unless he starts really scumming it up
N2. NSG dies unless she's scum
if we haven't lynched scum by that point it's a likely loss anyway
unless we can avoid that loss mechanically
which is the entire point of trying to optimise the setup with the tracker claim (which you disagree with for some reason)

is there some reason in specific to be cryptic about it?

respect for gamma; i don't care either way because i think it's NAI

reads for bambi:

Bambi: policy lynchable
Cheeky: bad reads and hard townreads you, is scum pocketing you
Gamma: capable of faking gamesolving, probscum sucking up to me
northsidegal: has posted nothing game relevant, basically scumclaiming
Not_Mafia: policy lynchable with extreme prejudice (although should be kept around depending on how spicy his memes are)
PenguinPower: blanket disapproval of optimal claiming strategy is exactly the kind of scum pushback i get from my gamebreaking
RedFlavor: blatantly chainsaw defending/WKing not_mafia, deserves rope, probably scum
SomethingSmart: honestly he's scummy in every game i've played with him so

does that help at all

Hello, sauce.

[Mathdino]

i also expect lowkey expect town to lose
so we should make one of the first two lynches a straight policy lynch

I have no idea how you could expect town to lose this early in the game unless you're scum.

playerlist, mostly

and i have no idea why you would think i'd be more confident in a town loss if i myself am scum

i get investigated a lot

my hope was to alter win probability with claiming strategy (because town's #1 problem with this setup is power roles getting shot) but that's not happening either so

[Mathdino]

i mean when you

really

think about it

is anyone ever

truly

town

[Mathdino]

but what is the

true

meaning of town???

look if you're sheeping me literally on page 7 you're doing it wrong

the point is that you go play your own game for a while

and sheep me when i'm confident

or when i'm calling your votes shit (which is usually confidence)

[Mathdino]

oh yeah your experience with me is literally losing games as a result of me

solid

[Mathdino]

i was hilariously obvscum in jester nightless

the playerlist was just bad and i lynched/discredited everyone who would be able to read me

[Mathdino]

VOTE: Penguin

sigh if we're actually playing the game i'm doing this

[Mathdino]

because i would be completely satisfied with the day if we literally policy lynched bambi or not_mafia, did the tracker/not-tracker claiming, and went into night

this minimises the probability that scum actually shoots a power role

removes someone more anti-town than the person we're likely to actually end up lynching (who will likely be town)

and sets us up well for both this game and next game

[Mathdino]

i will admit some of my online personality has been influenced by existential comics

[Mathdino]

gut + PoE

have pushed a lot of strategies in open games and your reaction is most similar to scum reactions in my experience

Edit: yeah if you take that statement completely out of context and ignore all the posts before and after it detailing my strategy for this unique setup, sure

[Mathdino]

i mean i'm already trying to break his new newbie setup so if he's town i can understand the undue bias against me

[Mathdino]

Not participating.

When I made 26 I figured that was a hipfire reaction, and I would, at some point, get a more detailed explanation on why my strategy was bad.

When it turned into a game of "discredit Mathdino and this strategy is garbage", that's what I mean by scum reactions. Scum is forced to either make shit up to rip into the strategy (which I'm on record outside of this game for approving of), or discredit me and my ability to optimise.

[Mathdino]

holy fucking shit i'm sheeping EP for the rest of my life

[Mathdino]

PoE

This would also be nice to explain given your last "read list" was all scum reads.

Would still like your answer to this.

That was a meme reads list specifically to not give Bambi something to sheep. I was half making fun of what other people get scumread for (Gamma, Smart, NSG) and half making fun of my own gut reactions to people's posts (CT, you).

Bambi and N_M are presently unreadable and are already fully in my lynchpool. If I'm to actually push people for reasons:

NSG is town.
CT reads very light town.
Gamma can nulltown.
Smart is null.
You I lightly scumread.

So if I'm supposed to actually play the game as opposed to policysmiting people I don't wanna play with, my vote's on you.

[Mathdino]

I'm not trying to discredit you, but I'm also not having this discussion in this game. Happy to participate in that discussion later on, but your claims that you have found an "optimal play" and have "broken the setup" are egotistical and unproven via stats. Once you can back up your arrogance, I'll follow along.

That's the last thing I'm going to say about your strategy for the duration of this game.

It's not a hardbreak, it's just an optimisation like the BP claim.

If I can prove it mathematically/computationally assuming random night actions, would that be better?

I can show all my assumptions on scum strategy and run the stats on each of Tracker/Doc, Tracker/JK, and Tracker/Cop.

[Mathdino]

have pushed a lot of strategies in open games and your reaction is most similar to scum reactions in my experience

elaborate pls

Check the game linked in Math's sig (the thing about economics wonderland) and check what cy flipped

OMG I FORGOT ABOUT THAT GAME

YES

WHEN NOT PLAYING THE GAME IS HOW TO WIN THE GAME

WHAT A SETUP

[Mathdino]

Honestly Smart's reaction to the strategy would be hard-town in a vacuum. It's clear he actually believes his POV on that.

The question then becomes "does he fake setup spec that he thinks is pro-town, and is that in his scumrange".

So I'm open to commentary on that.

Edit: @Gamma: I wrote "Gamma can be town" but then I realised you could actually legit be sucking up to me and switched you to nulltown.

[Mathdino]

Yeah because as scum I would just fakeclaim tracker

In all seriousness though, what vacuum do you mean?

I don't believe that at all

I mean that if I had less respect for your scumplay, I would say "Okay Smart clearly believes this shit and is pushing something he believes to be pro-town, so that's fuckin locktown".

However, I more than anyone know that setup spec is fakable, and you could easily be doing a (in your mind) pro-town thing for the towncred of actually genuinely believing your own strategy. Obviously if you were intending to be anti-town, you would just go along with this strategy that you in reality disapprove of.

[Mathdino]

Fair enough. Link me to your most recent/representative scumgames?

[Mathdino]

holy shit i read you and fitz extensively in that game i had no idea that was you

okay fantastic i already have half the context

[Mathdino]

no
when cheeky said you were town i started mixing up my games to think that you did the town NSG thing this game

your ISO doesn't seem to be alignment indicative, sadly

[Mathdino]

you'll have to excuse me if i'm slightly skeptical of that.

I mean I understand being punished for a fuckup on my part, but you should also know what I'm referring to. I'm a bit overgamed.

I also don't just lie about where my reads come from as scum. You saw me justify my townread on you in RC's game. In this case, I think mixing up my games should be NAI.

Do you read my townread-followed-by-nulltownread as alignment-informed?

[Mathdino]

i don't really like the idea of policy lynching just to set up for future games – it feels kind of weird, like playing towards a future wincondition or something. not even a future wincondition, but maybe even just sacrificing parts of this game to have a potentially better next game. i'd really rather just lynch scumreads.

doesn't it also assume that whoever we're policy lynching is on the losing team for this game?

Yeah but he didn't say this specifically. What he said was scummy af. 1. He used rolling town as a reason. 2. He want's you lynched before LYLO which could mean you're not one of the first two people lynched who would be knocked out.

what do you mean by 2? i don't really get what you're saying here.

Why doesn't scum-me just make up a justification with this post? Or saying "I'm sheeping CT on this"?

[Mathdino]

Eh, I think it would be perfectly within my meta to fake-sheep townreads on other people, considering that's a major reason I refused to lynch CT in Be Yourself (thanks RC). But yadda yadda self-meta.

I guess what I'm saying is, wouldn't faking a "oh fuck I mixed up my games" excuse dig myself into an EVEN DEEPER hole? You would get it (presumably), but other people could easily go "yeah I don't buy this bullshit".

[Mathdino]

Hey Cheeky, can you go skim NSG's early ISO in RC's Anything uPick? She did a very similar line of questioning there.

[Mathdino]

@Penguin: If you think what I'm doing is against the rules, you should take it up with the mod.

As of yet, you haven't explained your issue with any of these 3 things.

Hating meta is ridiculous. I have a fairly high rate of reading NSG off meta, and we were Team Mafia teammates, which has to count for something.

I've literally offered to write you a Python program proving my setup spec is optimal for town, but you don't want to talk about that.

And you can go ahead and take it up with the mod, because policy lynching is in no way against any mafia rules, and

towns provably win more the earlier that Bambi is lynched

. THAT one I have stats on. Do you want those?

[Mathdino]

I think it's too early to figure out if Math is town weird or scum weird this early in the game with confidence. Voting him and adding additional pressure is probably only going to make him more defensive and non-scumhunty at this point.

Math I'm not going to get drawn into meta based on one game where she was 3p. Can you update your readslist please?

In RC's Anything uPick, I was scum and she was town. I hard-defended her mid-D1, which she got mad skeptical of. I also tried to hard-townread her in Creature's micro. So NSG has a history of suspecting my early townreads of her when she feels it's unjustified.

In this case, nothing about her first 6 posts actually indicates town-NSG, and I think NSG is aware of that. So yeah, if I did seriously townread her based off that, it would be inconsistent with my ability to read her.

Reads list in a sec.

@Not_Mafia: There's almost always "that one player" that tries to lynch me off basically policy reasons. I didn't expect it to be a listmod trying to PL me for rulebreaking instead of doing a sensible thing like talking to the mod about it to get me replaced, but so it goes.

[Mathdino]

You think I'm trying to PL you? Really?

You've taken every opportunity to discredit me for "not playing the game" without addressing how what I'm actually doing is coming from a scum agenda.

All 3 of those things are pro-town. The policy lynches just have extra bonus points because I get to choose who I play with when I likely roll town again.

So yeah, I'm forced to assume that you're voting me because you don't like how I play.

[Mathdino]

Regrettably, both N_M and Bambi are likely town, which doesn't bode well at all for town's chances. Which honestly makes me want to lynch them more.

@Cheeky: Gonna hold off on that reads list for now. I'm pretty tilted after the mistake and Penguin/NSG are messing with my reads. Gonna metadive a bit when activity dies down and I'll come up with something more definitive.

[Mathdino]

Oh, no, I don't like how you play. Insulting other players as you have is pretty weak. However, I didn't discredit you (though I think your "optimum" whatever is not), you have explicitly said that you weren't playing the game, and that now your vote on me is only if you "have to play the game." Further, your policy lynches are shit and insulting to the players that are in the game. Grow up a bit.

I'm voting you because you don't seem genuine in your stances at all. Get off your high horse and meta, and come back to the game.

- I haven't personally attacked anyone, and I draw a line against doing so.

- You did shade me a bunch of times, and I can quote the posts.

- When I say "if we're actually playing the game" I'm being tongue-in-cheek. I've only done things that help town wincon. They just also happen to benefit future wincons. But "the game" literally means scumhunting, which I'd done little of up to that point.

- As a sidenote, telling me to get off my high horse but then in the same post calling my play weak and telling me to "grow up a bit" is just rich.

- I wasn't always this policy lynch-happy. Then my first game since hiatus was lost to Not_Mafia playing his towngame and being as useless as possible while others avoided lynching him. I was a mod-confirmed IC and the town (Including Bambi) speedlynched town before I had the chance to comment.

Bambi has intentionally developed a meta of fakeclaiming TPR every single time they're run up to be lynched. It is actually difficult to get THAT anti-town. They actively brag about how town has never won a LyLo with Bambi present. Not to mention they're incredibly easily pocketable, a trait that Not_Mafia and I exploited to the point where I got Bambi to lynch town 5 times in a row while I was the sole mafia left.

They've stated a desire to improve but have specifically expressed 0 regret for constantly fakeclaiming and drawing counterclaims as town. That, to me, is more policy lynchable than Not_Mafia, who can be good when he actually gives a shit about the game. Me policy lynching Not_Mafia is more of a meme at this point (I actually like him a lot as a user), and I think I'm at the point where I can read him. I don't have that much confidence in him picking correctly in LyLos, but that obviously just means we should lynch scum before then.

You can't seem to decide whether I'm town playing in a way you dislike (which would explain you telling me how to play differently) or just scum who doesn't genuinely believe any of my stances (in which case you STILL haven't explained the scum motivation in any of my actions).

[Mathdino]

Regrettably, both N_M and Bambi are likely town, which doesn't bode well at all for town's chances. Which honestly makes me want to lynch them more.

VOTE: Mathdino

Yeah with at least a dozen of your posts mentioning me being PL'd and even wanting to Lynch me anyway when you have the suspicion me and NotMaf are town is horseshit.

N_M I'm legitimately reading as town. You might have to be town by PoE considering I definitely have stronger scumreads elsewhere. I have no read on you but you're literally probabilistically more likely to be town.

The problem is that if you're both town, I stand significantly less chance of winning, so part of me wants to just throw in the towel, lynch one of you, and hope for a better game next time.

[Mathdino]

All it would take for me to stop trying to policy lynch Bambi at this point is a definitive statement that they promise to stop lying as town to avoid getting lynched. I don't count having bad reads and being easily pocketable as at all policy lynchable in itself. I've been there, and they're enjoyable to have in game.

But seeing as they've expressed 0 regret at brazenly anti-town play, here I am, trying to policy lynch them again. It just becomes a less fun game when you always have to worry about whether Bambi is fucking up town wincon and laughing about it.

[Mathdino]

I'm referring to JK9++. 55% of the time it would've gotten you counterclaimed, mislynched, and gotten a hypothetical real vig killed.

If you were going to fakeclaim to avoid getting lynched in that scenario, vig wasn't even the correct choice. Rolecop was.

[Mathdino]

I realise that we're at the point where the mod can't do shit to change it, but I genuinely wonder if we'd be having this conversation at all if I were scum, considering policy lynching 2 townies (or policy lynching my scumbuddy) directly helps scum wincon.

Does anyone remember that time momo modded an Open and had to warn Tonereader?

Anyway, spicy hot reads list incoming after I confirm a few things re: meta.

[Mathdino]

oh my god

this was in another tab but i left before i finished this post

Math, NSG reacted in a somewhat similar way... so why is she so strongly town?

wait fuck i mixed up

i thought i explained the mixup already

is why i was all weirded out about NSG's weirded-out-ness

okay i actually do think NSG is town *for now*

N_Mtown/NSGtown leaves
Smart-town pending meta review
Penguin-scum
Bambi-lynchable
Gamma-unreadable
CT-too soon to tell but i will ISO this in a bit
Red I'm actually not locking a read on yet, but I also forgot Polygamist ever happened, so rereading that will be a fantastic meta reminder.

Edit: tfw two dozen PEdits

[Mathdino]

Were you in that game? At first I thought it was a similar scenario, but I don't think it was quite as blatantly AI. You bringing it up as a reason to TR you makes it void and somewhat scummy.

I prefer to be confirmed town when I have the opportunity (something you know very well), but ok.

[Mathdino]

Sounds good.

NSG who's scum?

Also why is anyone voting Not_Mafia right now other than policy?

[Mathdino]

I've never actually seen scum!NM so I can't compare to scum meta. What I have seen of his town game is usually quite trolly/humourous but his votes always make sense. In contrast, I see him trying a little too hard for what I expect of him and he's voted an inactive slot. I conclude that this must be his scum game since I haven't seen him play like this before.

Do I get extra cred if I say I have never mislynched town NM?

Interesting.

Yeah "interesting" is all I got. My ability to read N_M is still evolving.

I don't get the same credit you do but the only time I mislynched town N_M was in a MyLo. Had I gone in with the assumption that his votes would always make sense... well he voteparked me the moment I replaced in and said he was never moving so that assumption seems a bit simplistic. A good foundation but simplistic.

[Mathdino]

You might have to be town by PoE considering I definitely have stronger scumreads elsewhere.

How does that square with this:

N_Mtown/NSGtown leaves
Smart-town pending meta review
Penguin-scum
Bambi-lynchable
Gamma-unreadable
CT-too soon to tell but i will ISO this in a bit
Red I'm actually not locking a read on yet, but I also forgot Polygamist ever happened, so rereading that will be a fantastic meta reminder.

...where you seem to have only one scumread of any strength at all?

At the time of making that original post:
NSG was playing to her scum meta.
Penguin I was scumreading.
CT I'm getting really bad feelings about but a lot of that is "I just got screwed by her scumgame so everything pings me now".
And Red I realised was also playing similarly to JK9++.

That "I'm scumreading everyone" post was only mostly ironic. Townreads have been hard to come by. Bambi isn't actually scum by play, and I'll admit that a couple things aren't what I'd expect of scum-Bambi.

So when 4 players are acting more like their scumselves and Bambi is just acting like themself, you kinda have to realise that everyone at the null line and below is actually likely town.

[Mathdino]

And Red I realised was also playing similarly to JK9++.

You mean with his one "lol" post?

So apart from Penguin's reaction to your controversial theory, explain your scum read on him.

I don't think I've ever finished a game with town-RedFlavor now that I think about it, so whenever I see him being the same old RedFlavor I get scumvibes.

I've seen people in this game as scum too much.

[Mathdino]

Overview of RedFlavor's towngames suggests he's town here. I think I'm seeing the difference between his towngame and scumgame.

Needs to be more proactive though. Would help a lot in reading.

[Mathdino]

We've learned not to bet entire games on whether or not someone drops a scumtell

In defence of my metadiving, Lovebird actually did drop the scumtell in my PT once or twice when we got to LyLo. I just ignored it because I thought she'd do it more. But the tell still 100% works.

The flaw there was that I was trying to meta read someone off a low amount of content. So I do want Red to post more, and I'm still willing to lynch him if he doesn't. But I'm at the point where if he posts a lot, I think I can tell the difference.

[Mathdino]

Also

You only respect my scumplay

Because you've never seen it

Upon review, this is basically true.

No offence, but having seen it........

Let's just say Smart is town now. The kinds of lines of questioning/arguments I assumed he would easily fake as scum are not things I'm seeing in his scumgames.

Town by meta: Smart/Red

NSG is weird. I just got out of a game where I lock-towned her as a reaction test specifically to see if she'd get all paranoid of me, under the assumption that she would only do so as town. I was just about to use that tell to townread her but now I realise that of fucking course she'd intentionally fish for townreads by doing that after

I literally told her that's the reaction I was fishing for last game

.
So I'm back to null there. NSG being at null is a very uncomfortable gamestate.

Incidentally, in the same (completely Open) game, Bambi fakeclaimed jailkeeper as VT thinking the real jailkeeper wouldn't counterclaim. And also repeatedly jumped off scumwagons to try to flashlynch me and obvtown Almost50. So you'll understand my sentiment of "town wins the sooner Bambi gets lynched".
Sentiment holds until I get a hardcore promise of not lying as town. Some players can do it effectively, but only after becoming good townies in the first place.

CT's argument on Not_Mafia is either really good (if she's town), or her play so far has been politically motivated. Can explain this more in depth if need be but paranoia of her holds.

And Gamma is... honestly Occam's Razor just suggests he's town, but self-reminder to go check his scumrange at some point, because I need to get better at reading him.

Assuming Bambi is just hardcore PL-able town, my current potential scumteams for consideration are:
Penguin/NSG
Penguin/CT
Penguin/N_M
NSG/N_M
NSG/CT

Might be able to rule some of these out in a bit. Still haven't looked up Penguin at all.

[Mathdino]

Explain where your bad feelings are coming from Something_Smart.

Feels like you're not trying to interact and instead you're just commenting on stuff in order to look like you're participating.

Bad read. Read again.

FWIW if Cheeky is scum it's not because of this.

Edit: wat
in what universe is Cheeky fluffing
that's not even the correct word
Smart is referring to active lurking

[Mathdino]

posting but not actually offering anything to advance the gamestate? yes
it's not what CT is doing but yes

NGL it's kinda what town-Creature does; it's not a scumtell that works on everybody

Smart help me read Penguin, i'm clearly mad biased there

[Mathdino]

I mean that's also clearly not true but ok.

CT, explain your full read progression on Penguin?

[Mathdino]

I literally already did so.

tl;dr (go read my ISO for more):
1. His pushback against setup optimisation isn't a scummy thing, but the way in which he did it reminds me of scum in previous Opens I've tried to break.
2. He can't seem to decide whether he's voting me for being bad town that he doesn't wanna play with, or because he thinks I'm scum. His only reason for scumreading me is that he "doesn't think my stances are genuine", which is a straight up copout reason to scumread someone, and not something he's explained at all.
3. He's going full AtE in terms of "Mathdino stop being egotistical and stop thinking you're so much better than others that they should be policy lynched" which is a fantastic way to get easily-pocketable Bambi/Red/maybeN_M on his side.

Do you want me to go through the metadive before I ask for your help on this?

[Mathdino]

RC pushes for policy lynches on players he thinks are better as scum than town?

If I'm wrong on Penguin I'm quickly heading toward a scumteam of {NSG}+{CT or N_M}.

VOTE: northsidegal

god help me if this is town

Edit: I was scumreading him before he was pushing me at all. Literally what happened FMPOV is

- Mathdino pushes for setup spec and policy lynches
- People get annoyed, suggest real scumhunting
- I go "well if we're playing the game..." and vote Penguin because he was my strongest scumread
- Penguin asks me to explain
- I do so
- Penguin flips shit at me "not playing the game"

[Mathdino]

Is that line more characteristic of scum-him?

I dunno. It just pinged me that he called for more votes without voting.

I'm suspicious of Math, Gamma and the cute penguin at this point. I can take or leave most of these reads, meaning confidence = 2ish/10.

Hard TR Bambi.

Ah, so we're playing the game again...cool. This cute penguin is sad that Math and Gamma at least got quoted, but he was completely left out.

Why do you hard tr bambi...

VOTE: Penguin

sigh if we're actually playing the game i'm doing this

VOTE: Penguin

sigh if we're actually playing the game i'm doing this

Reason?

Fun note...Math doesn't want to actually play the game.

gut + PoE

have pushed a lot of strategies in open games and your reaction is most similar to scum reactions in my experience

Edit: yeah if you take that statement completely out of context and ignore all the posts before and after it detailing my strategy for this unique setup, sure

So..Math is all about setup spec, meta, and PLs against game rules? Don't play the game!

VOTE: Math

P-sure this needs to go. Might re-eval in the morning after the beer.

i have absolutely 0 clue how you could read this and interpret this game as me OMGUSing Penguin

[Mathdino]

The weird calculus for me is that lynching/scumreading the most anti-Mathdino player almost always comes up town. DiamondSentinel, TheGoldenParadox, UnaBombaH, the worst, Dunkerdoodles (Creature's game), CultofAthena, etc.

And one would think "oh well scum wouldn't go after Mathdino because he's not actually easy to lynch and he tends to get anti-Mathdino players wagoned". But a lot of the scumteams in those games don't actually know me either.

I'll take CT's word on Penguin for now, with the caveat that if the scumteam is NOT {NSG, N_M}, I have to look in {CT, Penguin}.

[Mathdino]

Math, NSG reacted in a somewhat similar way... so why is she so strongly town?

wait fuck i mixed up

i thought i explained the mixup already

is why i was all weirded out about NSG's weirded-out-ness

okay i actually do think NSG is town *for now*

NSG is weird. I just got out of a game where I lock-towned her as a reaction test specifically to see if she'd get all paranoid of me, under the assumption that she would only do so as town. I was just about to use that tell to townread her but now I realise that of fucking course she'd intentionally fish for townreads by doing that after

I literally told her that's the reaction I was fishing for last game

.
So I'm back to null there. NSG being at null is a very uncomfortable gamestate.

And you're once again proving you're straight up not reading my posts.

- You claimed I hadn't provided reasoning on Penguin when I clearly had, multiple times.

- You claimed I OMGUS'd Penguin when an ancillary check shows I didn't, and Penguin voted me AFTER I GAVE REASONING.

- You now think I said I was sure NSG was town? I already explained that I mixed up my games and I can't really talk more about that.

When I changed my mind in 272, I figured "oh, well NSG's paranoia of my townread is exactly what I'd expect from town-NSG, that seems reasonable". But then Tit for Tat ending made me remember that I staged a reaction test and told her straight up that I was fishing for that same paranoia, and would've townread her more had she been more paranoid of me.

This whole "what's Mathdino's read on NSG" is a continual weirdness every time we're in the same game together. But scum almost always plays to a slightly outdated town meta, and I think that's what NSG is doing right now. There's nothing in her ISO that indicates town to me.

[Mathdino]

FWIW, I don't think NSG's read progression on me is ever actually alignment indicative. It's just a thing that she could easily fake as scum.

The reason I'm actually putting her as scum is that she's not playing her towngame, and her towngame is usually pretty effortless to pull off (as town).

[Mathdino]

also why are you not acknowledging the fact that you're you've misread my posts 3 times

[Mathdino]

i don't know where you found confidence in that read

like i'm pretty obvious when i'm confident about my townreads; "for now" means "I acknowledge she's basically playing her scum meta, but she's literally more likely to be town and I'm gonna leave her alone while I go through reevaluation"
i also would really really hate to mislynch NSG out of the next 2 games considering she's the only person in this game i can read with a reasonable degree of confidence

but yeah Red-town, Smart-town, Penguin-town-for-now-I-guess-until-I-metadive, and CT/N_M-not-the-scumteam narrows it down a lot
to the point where "NSG is playing her scum meta" basically means she's scum

[Mathdino]

but yes i will back off am willing to wait a few days or more for NSG to answer

[Mathdino]

So you think I ALSO faked the AHA moment? Like I in no way think that mixing up the games and forgetting to finish a post about it is alignment indicative, but thinking that I timed the "finding an unfinished post" thing as a political response to NSG townreading me and then reversing my read on her this page...
Like I acknowledge that you see inconsistency. Everyone sees inconsistency in my reads progressions at times, fucking whatever.
But what I'm not understanding is wtf you think my scumplan here is. Great, I got NSG to think I'm near conftown... and now I'm trying to remove her from the game? Why NSG over literally any of the 6 players in this game who aren't Smart?

[Mathdino]

So you think I ALSO faked the AHA moment? Like I in no way think that mixing up the games and forgetting to finish a post about it is alignment indicative, but thinking that I timed the "finding an unfinished post" thing as a political response to NSG townreading me and then reversing my read on her this page...
Like I acknowledge that you see inconsistency. Everyone sees inconsistency in my reads progressions at times, fucking whatever.
But what I'm not understanding is wtf you think my scumplan here is. Great, I got NSG to think I'm near conftown... and now I'm trying to remove her from the game? Why NSG over literally any of the 6 players in this game who aren't Smart?

I'm not getting drawn into a game of WIFOM with you. I could have asked the same about you accepting my read on Penguin and still thinking I'm scum. Why would I convince you to look objectively at someone you're likely misreading? Who cares. WIFOM is useless.

It's not WIFOM, it's the fact that you're specifically claiming my read progression on NSG is political (correct me if I'm wrong) because I started townreading her after she was townreading me (correct, that was certainly part of that, unfortunately). But if my scum-motive is to keep NSG around because she thinks I'm conftown, trying to lynch her flies in the face of that.

And my theory for you-scum involves you buddying me initially, realising I was scumreading you for that, and pivoting to buddying Penguin against me (or you're just scum with Penguin, which is a niche theory). And if you end up convincing me, you-scum could bring me onto the N_M-wagon (which appeals to my policy lynch sensibilities). I don't see the inconsistency in that idea.

It's still hard to believe that you're really critically reading my posts. Or that you believe townleaning someone who just called me conftown (the opposite of OMGUS) is scum-indicative. Which doesn't even account for "then pivoting to lynch the only person calling me conftown".

[Mathdino]

Ok Math/NSG can be town.

what dropped me down, and what raised smart up?

Content. Smart feels natural/not agenda driven. I didn't like your skepticism of Math's town read on you and didn't understand your line of questionning on him. Yes me not understanding is not your fault but it subtly pinged me because you're usually pretty concise.

I think it's too early to figure out if Math is town weird or scum weird this early in the game with confidence. Voting him and adding additional pressure is probably only going to make him more defensive and non-scumhunty at this point.

Math I'm not going to get drawn into meta based on one game where she was 3p. Can you update your readslist please?

Ok I've solved it Penguin/NM scumteam GG.

[Mathdino]

> not critically reading other people's posts
> had just spent half an hour putting up a full reads list on everyone that isn't Bambi/Not_Mafia
> CLEARLY was critically reading NSG's posts

here have a lolcase

Spoiler:

Hi North

VOTE: NSG

Pedit kind of? I like them.

hey cheeky! can we finally have a game where we're both town again?

rvs vote, or serious? you mentioned a few other suspects you had, why vote me?

oh boy this line of questioning doesn't get anywhere

Thinking about it I have a theory about scumplay in this game but I'll hold it cos I wanna see if anyone plays like I would expect scum to

i actually think i know exactly what you're saying

but i would also play like that as town (if not more likely to)

and i think you know this about me

Why do you think I'm talking specifically about you

math, did you ever answer this?

prodding me to answer a jokey question, so pro-town

i don't really like the idea of policy lynching just to set up for future games – it feels kind of weird, like playing towards a future wincondition or something. not even a future wincondition, but maybe even just sacrificing parts of this game to have a potentially better next game. i'd really rather just lynch scumreads.

doesn't it also assume that whoever we're policy lynching is on the losing team for this game?

Yeah but he didn't say this specifically. What he said was scummy af. 1. He used rolling town as a reason. 2. He want's you lynched before LYLO which could mean you're not one of the first two people lynched who would be knocked out.

what do you mean by 2? i don't really get what you're saying here.

half the words she typed out for the game thus far has been fluff, meaningless "i don't like how you're playing the game", and casual disapproval of the claiming strategy

tl;dr NSG's only examples of complex thought thus far has been
- Paranoia of me townreading her, which she knows gets me to townread her.
- Clear dismay at me being potentially conftown by modspew.

[Mathdino]

You also played to your scum meta in the first 7 or so posts of RC's game, which you acknowledged. Considering you were warning me throughout Tit for Tat that I'm gonna get snowed by you when you do roll scum, I figured "okay, sure, benefit of the doubt here". Plus you were the only one to call me conftown which made me happy.

But then I did the critical reread and realised there's nothing really game-advancing in your ISO and that at least means you're around 60-70% likely to be scum at this point in time.

Plus actually going through your posts, spreadsheet says you're scum by meta, although I've never tried to use it this early.

[Mathdino]

The best way I can explain this is that you were null by your ISO, and being null by your ISO itself means scum-NSG is highly likely. Taking Smart and Red out of the lynchpool, that leaves you at a 1/3 chance of being scum just by probability.

Then factor in the fact that I'm not townreading you, and that ISO nullread turns into a scumread.

[Mathdino]

Dropping you down to a null is a fantastic reason to vote you, especially when I have stronger townreads on other players. Why would you think I should know otherwise?

My read on Red is coming from the blatant fakeness in Polygamist and JK9++. The things he was certain of vs the things he was uncertain of didn't make any sense.

In this game, he's actually been advancing the gamestate in his own way. He pinpointed posts that he felt were indicative, and explained where his reads came from.

[Mathdino]

This is WIFOM, and kind of a lazy way to form a read. The contexts are different – if this time i actually feel like the vote is coming from an alignment informed position rather than it feeling genuine, i'm going to call it out. That question itself shouldn't be the basis for a read in the first place, i think. I mean, did you think that i thought you'd forgotten that reaction test last game?

I get the feeling I'm gonna have to explain this read progression in full.

I was initially townreading you from the mixup because I wasn't paying attention to your ISO this game.
Then I realised the mixup and figured "eh this ISO is NAI but everyone is scummy this game so w/e". I was starting to agree with CT on not liking your lines of questioning.
Then you pointed out me being conftown, and THEN I realised your paranoia was justified, and those things combined made me gutread town.

Then I realised that paranoia is totally NAI (it's WIFOMable), and your ISO plays to your scum meta, and I was more removed from the "is Mathdino conftown" situation, so given no reason to townread you, and given that other players are townier than you are, I'm comfortable calling scum.

NSG how do you feel about Math's progression on his read of you?

it feels opportunistic – even if i believe that the mix-up was real the whole tit for tat thing being used as justification for a vote doesn't seem genuine at all. remembering the reaction test and how he explicitly said the reaction he's looking would only really be a reason to drop me down to null (if he was making a lazy read in the first place), not as scum. "nsg isn't towny yet so that's a scumtell" isn't meaningful at all and mathdino knows that.

I mean you said the exact same thing of me in Be Yourself, and unfortunately I forgot to ask whether you actually believed I was scum there.
I'm using Tit for Tat to nullify the previous paranoia towntell.
And "nsg isn't towny yet so that's a scumtell" has a 100% success rate.

[Mathdino]

Do you read Not Mafia as mafia or do you want to lynch him because he is unreadable?

What's wrong with Cheeky? She seems nice!

Anyway, Red, I want to know why your ISO is somehow shittier then NotMaf's or mine and why your vote on me.

I was sick
And I did not really like your 255, reason to vote mathdino. It looks like scummy excuse to vote someone just to vote or prevent them policy lynching you by saying they are scum trying to policy lynch you

Also my iso was never good in any game so your argument is invalid

Why did you vote not mafia instead of someone that would give you reactions?
I think you are opportunistic scum who will say "He was impossible to read anyways, that was a good PL." after lyncing not mafia.

VOTE: cheeky

Mathdino may be town if he is doing what Im thinking but thats very secret information and that would hurt town if I said it open

Btw me not tracky, forgot about this

Like this is kind of an insulting take on his scum meta given that these posts aren't particularly OUTSTANDING BEACONS OF TOWNISHNESS but all of these posts are way outside Red's scumrange.

[Mathdino]

Do you read Not Mafia as mafia or do you want to lynch him because he is unreadable?

What's wrong with Cheeky? She seems nice!

Anyway, Red, I want to know why your ISO is somehow shittier then NotMaf's or mine and why your vote on me.

I was sick
And I did not really like your 255, reason to vote mathdino. It looks like scummy excuse to vote someone just to vote or prevent them policy lynching you by saying they are scum trying to policy lynch you

Also my iso was never good in any game so your argument is invalid

Why did you vote not mafia instead of someone that would give you reactions?
I think you are opportunistic scum who will say "He was impossible to read anyways, that was a good PL." after lyncing not mafia.

VOTE: cheeky

Mathdino may be town if he is doing what Im thinking but thats very secret information and that would hurt town if I said it open

Btw me not tracky, forgot about this

Like this is kind of an insulting take on his scum meta given that these posts aren't particularly OUTSTANDING BEACONS OF TOWNISHNESS but all of these posts are way outside Red's scumrange.

Fixed.

[Mathdino]

And "nsg isn't towny yet so that's a scumtell" has a 100% success rate.

i mean, it just failed in tit for tat, and it also has a sample size of about 2 i'm pretty sure, so i don't really buy it.

You were still advancing the gamestate in Tit for Tat early game. The reaction test failed, yes, but I didn't expect it to fail. I didn't think there was anything particularly wrong with your ISO early game like I do now.

The spreadsheet didn't work because you play like scum when you're a PR.

[Mathdino]

Spoiler: Am I wall v wallposting with NSG now? My comments in bold

here have a lolcase

Hi North

VOTE: NSG

Pedit kind of? I like them.

hey cheeky! can we finally have a game where we're both town again?

rvs vote, or serious? you mentioned a few other suspects you had, why vote me?

oh boy this line of questioning doesn't get anywhere

it doesn't go anywhere because cheeky answers in

the very next post

. i don't think there's any useful further avenues of questioning with regards to her response – do you think there were and me not thinking of them makes me scum?

No. But you made that post 6 pages into the game. There was NOTHING better to comment on?

Thinking about it I have a theory about scumplay in this game but I'll hold it cos I wanna see if anyone plays like I would expect scum to

i actually think i know exactly what you're saying

but i would also play like that as town (if not more likely to)

and i think you know this about me

Why do you think I'm talking specifically about you

math, did you ever answer this?

prodding me to answer a jokey question, so pro-town

how is that a "jokey" question and how is me asking you to answer it in any way scum-indicative?

The emoji made me assume it was non-serious. But you didn't seem to use it to read me. Surely by page 6 there's something more interesting than asking me to answer someone else's question?

i don't really like the idea of policy lynching just to set up for future games – it feels kind of weird, like playing towards a future wincondition or something. not even a future wincondition, but maybe even just sacrificing parts of this game to have a potentially better next game. i'd really rather just lynch scumreads.

doesn't it also assume that whoever we're policy lynching is on the losing team for this game?

Yeah but he didn't say this specifically. What he said was scummy af. 1. He used rolling town as a reason. 2. He want's you lynched before LYLO which could mean you're not one of the first two people lynched who would be knocked out.

what do you mean by 2? i don't really get what you're saying here.

half the words she typed out for the game thus far has been fluff, meaningless "i don't like how you're playing the game", and casual disapproval of the claiming strategy

people were talking about policy lynches and playing towards the future games... so

I

talked about those things. You can't call that meaningless when that's what the current topic of discussion was.

No, you talked about those things from an objective top-down view of the gamestate. You noted that you didn't like the idea of it because it feels weird. That's NAI. And if you'd rather lynch scumreads, it didn't help that

you didn't seem to have scumreads

.

tl;dr NSG's only examples of complex thought thus far has been
- Paranoia of me townreading her, which she knows gets me to townread her.
- Clear dismay at me being potentially conftown by modspew.

My being paranoid of you having bad reasons to townread you is in literally no way a scumtell, unless i'm meant to just stay silent on it and let you fake townread me whenever you're scum. You're also talking a level 0 view of what i would do as scum and assuming that i have a level 0 view of the way you develop reads in the first place. Is "math made a huge deal about this towntell that he was looking for in this game that just finished so i'll do it this time" a real thought that you think i would have as scum?

Quote where you think i display "dismay" at the mod thing.

I didn't say it was a scumtell. It's just not a towntell, which I've already discussed. Even disregarding Tit for Tat, I think you would have to agree that scum-you obviously fakes paranoia if I just call you town for no reason after you were playing consistently with your scumgame.

i agree and that was actually my first thought upon seeing this. i'm hesitant to really use that to influence my read too much but i'd be inclined to say that it almost mod-spews you as town, given that policy lynches on town as scum would still advance scum wincondition.

Your hesitance to use that as a part of your read in my mind is trying to avoid having to locktown me.

[Mathdino]

You were still advancing the gamestate in Tit for Tat early game. The reaction test failed, yes, but I didn't expect it to fail. I didn't think there was anything particularly wrong with your ISO early game like I do now.

The spreadsheet didn't work because you play like scum when you're a PR.

This right now is something like the third time i've actually sat down to look at this game. you're literally just trying to activity tell me again, but with proxies for activity rather than just post count itself.

the only reason you think i played like scum that game was because of my activity, and i can tell you right now that it had nothing to do with me being a vigilante instead of vanilla town. my activity would have bene exactlyt he same.

You would have completely ignored that game while posting all over the place in

every other thread you were a part of?

You'd have to be insane to not agree that THAT level of activity disparity is alignment indicative for plenty of players.

Right now I'm accusing you of active lurking, not lurking.

[Mathdino]

Then unvote me if you care so much

[Mathdino]

Mathdino suspects PenguinPower
PenguinPower votes Mathdino
Mathdino voices a willingness to lynch Bambi
Bambi votes Mathdino
Mathdino voices explicit suspicion of CheekyTeeky
CT votes Mathdino
Mathdino votes NSG...

I'm on a fucking roll here guys
I have no idea how anyone thinks this is my master scumplan

[Mathdino]

NSG putting me at unannounced L-1
While refusing to accept the idea that town Mathdino suspects her ISO (when she has in previous games been willing to accept when her ISO is scummy)

Bad bad bad
This is not town NSG

[Mathdino]

Christ, Jay
Am I the person you want to be wrong on for D1

Think about this 1v1 for a second
How would I go about this as scum

[Mathdino]

<3

[Mathdino]

Mathdino suspects PenguinPower
PenguinPower votes Mathdino
Mathdino voices a willingness to lynch Bambi
Bambi votes Mathdino
Mathdino voices explicit suspicion of CheekyTeeky
CT votes Mathdino
Mathdino votes NSG...

I'm on a fucking roll here guys
I have no idea how anyone thinks this is my master scumplan

This is probably a really bad time to remember that I'd be willing to lynch Not_Mafia

But yeah obviously lynch Not_Mafia if hammer
Not hammering here is NAI

[Mathdino]

I guarantee scum Not_Mafia also doesn't hammer here

He played the always quick hammer style in front of me and Bambi before as scum, he knows hammering would be suicide this time around

[Mathdino]

UNVOTE:

That went up too fast and I don't care for Cheeky's rationale.

Quite possible I just don't like math's playstyle.

Good to note that Not_Mafia is either town or scum with Math.

Lol I love how you say you don't care for my rationale but then say you don't like Math's playstyle which was my rationale.

You know damn well that's not the same thing

Counting another instance of you seeming to totally misinterpret people's posts

[Mathdino]

UNVOTE:

That went up too fast and I don't care for Cheeky's rationale.

Quite possible I just don't like math's playstyle.

Good to note that Not_Mafia is either town or scum with Math.

Lol I love how you say you don't care for my rationale but then say you don't like Math's playstyle which was my rationale.

You know damn well that's not the same thing

Counting another instance of you seeming to totally misinterpret people's posts

Can you stop with the misinterpreting bs? You don't understand anything I'm doing either so stop creating nonsense.

You voted me for inconsistency in my read progression on NSG.
PenguinPower voted me for "fuck your setup spec, your meta, your policy lynches, your egotism, and your overt unwillingness to play the game".

Penguin's vote was over playstyle. Yours was clearly not. What's the inconsistency in that post?

[Mathdino]

So you think I ALSO faked the AHA moment? Like I in no way think that mixing up the games and forgetting to finish a post about it is alignment indicative, but thinking that I timed the "finding an unfinished post" thing as a political response to NSG townreading me and then reversing my read on her this page...
Like I acknowledge that you see inconsistency. Everyone sees inconsistency in my reads progressions at times, fucking whatever.
But what I'm not understanding is wtf you think my scumplan here is. Great, I got NSG to think I'm near conftown... and now I'm trying to remove her from the game? Why NSG over literally any of the 6 players in this game who aren't Smart?

How did Smart get into this discussion?

Because I think I could fake a convincing scumread/push on anyone in this game other than Smart. Like any of the 4 players I'd already voiced a scumread/lynchability on (N_M, Bambi, CT, Penguin).

[Mathdino]

God damnit Dino,play to win anyway even if the chances of victory are small. My vote is staying where it is, but now your getting me fricken huffy and I'm tunneling on you. I can feel it.

Got to read see if I can get a different scum lean.

...so have you read yet?

[Mathdino]

So this is a progression that happened in one of Jay's towngames.

I was just about to say Bambi is probably town, considering he's not horribad at scum and openwolfing like that would be ridiculous.

Then I realised that in Stack the Deck he continually advocated for hammers on town, to the point of literally asking N_M to quickhammer.

Reading through his towngames, he consistently displays some level of caution/uncertainty. In his scumgames he goes all out recklessness (unless there's a wagon on his scumbuddy).

Bambi/NSG scumteam is what I'm thinking. Don't really care who first.

Edit: You're here, hey. Why am I wrong on the above case?

[Mathdino]

Lol, no I see him saying

"I'm great at fabricating pushes/scumreads on certain people, like the people I'm scumreading now"...

There's a difference between "I could fake a convincing scumread on someone and push it" and "I would go balls to the wall scumreading/pushing/antagonising 5 people in succession when that's clearly exactly what's causing people to vote me".

[Mathdino]

Do you have any towngames where you were similarly fine with hammers?

[Mathdino]

First of all that was my second game on the site running concurrently with my first, in which I was scum in. I had NO experience as town and I had no idea what the fuck I was doing.

And Stack the Deck was because I went into "Serial Killer" mindset and hoped that would get NotMaf shot so I could do whatever the heck I wanted with Montosh tagging around. Plus I would have done that as Town too to bait NotMaf into getting himself killed.

Okay, but you also did this:

Be sure to give us a vote count so no one accidentally hammers by the way, Dino.

I'm not going to change my vote yet just in case Dino screwed up so I don't get to be the one who lol-hammers on accident. I will, however, move my vote over tomorrow, hammer vote or not, should I be asked.

We've all gone into quite a lot of detail about what the Vigilante should do, and that's fine... But we really should look at the benefits of leaving Pintu alive to shoot someone elsa night one. I really hope it's not the case, but the Vigilante could only get one shot if he's NKed tonight. I'd prefer if they have a valuable shot then a null-town Vanilla Townie slot.

Which reads to me as similar town-caution.

RedFlavor scumread is bad.

[Mathdino]

Holy. Shit.

My bad then.

@Cheeky: I think I have a reasonable understanding of Red's thought process and I'm very confident right now that recklessness is neither a towntell for him (he was super reckless in BOTH SCUMGAMES I PLAYED WITH HIM) nor is it actually a factor of his playstyle right now (I'm sensing that he's moving away from recklessness).

[Mathdino]

I don't think he's moving away from recklessness as an attempt to stop getting himself mislynched. I think he's doing it so he can stop being wrong.

[Mathdino]

Hey Red can you post a reads list?

[Mathdino]

You're not gonna get your answer from Bambi because they're V/LA for the next 2 days.

Can you give reads on everyone other than CT/Bambi?

[Mathdino]

Right so

@CT: Just to go over your scumreads this game (that you haven't explicitly reevaluated):

- NSG is scum for her line of questioning on me
- N_M is scum by meta
- Mathdino is scum for inconsistency in NSG progression
- Red is scum by meta

And the ones you HAVE backtracked:
- Penguin, who switched to a townread
- Bambi, who is town by reads

So which of your scumreads are most likely wrong and why?

[Mathdino]

You guys have to understand that I'm coming at this from the angle that Red once sent me a PM asking how to scumhunt and get good reads
And how not to lose scumgames

And so the differences in his playstyle you guys are seeing
Are at times literally things that I would've coached him to do if I were in a teacher hydra with him
Which I am but ongoing game etc etc

[Mathdino]

I thought 424 was one of his most NAI posts tbh

[Mathdino]

Wait am I missing him calling you guys as the scumteam

[Mathdino]

That's dumb
But yeah ok

[Mathdino]

OK is literally anyone here townreading NSG
At this point I'm feeling like you guys are just letting her whole deal slide because I presented my read on her badly

I also have an argument that lowkey proves I'm town or scum with NSG but I'm saving that for later
Gamma probably knows it

Point is if I'm town my read on NSG is > rand so unless anyone is seriously townreading her this is a good wagon

[Mathdino]

this game needs more gamma emerald right about nowish

[Mathdino]

because NSG is scum mostly

and scumteams that exclude both NSG and N_M are questionable

[Mathdino]

Off the top of my head, her scumread on me ONLY makes sense if she thinks I don't actually intend to get her lynched. It actually makes a great deal of sense if she thinks I'm just halfassing a push/scumread on her.

But that's inconsistent with not only things she's said about me in other games, but also her entire interpretation of my progression this game. She called my push "opportunistic", implying I do actually intend to lynch her off of an activity tell (which isn't true).

[Mathdino]

Is it important that I tell you before she gets back?

It's one of those things that I feel like NSG should absolutely notice, given that she's actually been able to read my thought process fairly well in this and other games.

[Mathdino]

What has she done this game besides non-gamestate-relevant content and self-defence?

I have never seen a town NSG that wasn't townread by at least one person in the game by this point. Ever.

[Mathdino]

To be fair you're doing the meta thing again and this game for as many pages as it has is actually rather lacking in reads and pushes from other players. So far Math, BB and Red have given reads as well as myself. It would be nice if NM (lol yeah right), SS, NSG, Gamma and Penguin could give initial impressions of everyone so we weren't shooting in the dark.

SS and Gamma have given more than enough game-relevant content to read into. SS's ISO is huge.

I'd be scumreading ANY player who spends their entire ISO making no pushes or reads and then spends the sheer amount of time she has solely self-defending/OMGUSing, while still not giving any thoughts on other players.

[Mathdino]

because if it's not a meta read, votes on N_M are policy reads

[Mathdino]

ooh i actually have a direct response to this one! lemme grab a quote

i'm purposefully not meta-ing you

[Mathdino]

It doesn't have to make 100% sense to you. From your perspective, you're always town.

It has to make sense for scum-me to progress on you like that.

Does it? Write the scum-narrative for me.

[Mathdino]

also lowkey i don't expect it to make much sense on anyone given the mixup and the way my reads change in general

still doesn't matter

end result is that i'm hardscumreading NSG

[Mathdino]

So you're saying that scum-me drops scumreads because they scumread me back, and so I go find someone else to antagonise?

[Mathdino]

1. Do you believe I intend to lynch you today?

2. Do you believe town-Mathdino thinks he can read you easily?

[Mathdino]

It has to make sense for scum-me to progress on you like that.

why

Because if it doesn't make sense for scum-me to progress on NSG like that, then her scumread on me is no bueno.

[Mathdino]

So you're saying that scum-me drops scumreads because they scumread me back, and so I go find someone else to antagonise?

i'm saying that scum you drops scumreads because it's clear that the scumread is hurting you more than anyone else. i mean, that's pretty much exactly how you've described your scumgame before – political.

1. Do you believe I intend to lynch you today?

2. Do you believe town-Mathdino thinks he can read you easily?

it seems that way, and yes.

Do you think that scum-Mathdino thinks you're a viable mislynch?

You're right that my scumgame (and my towngame, you left that out) is political. You've played in both my most indicative scumgames lately, and IIRC, you read Jester Nightless.

Did you get the impression that my scum strategy was to shop around for scumreads until I found one that didn't draw suspicion on me?

[Mathdino]

Math InB4 you go on about me misreading you but in a really lazy summary of your game so far:

- Setup spec
- Defending yourself
- WIFOM
- Meta overload

You do provide reads, but you don't really seem to be pushing people much this game. You just tag meta onto people to read them as town not town and say you're not using meta to read me but you're not using meta on me because of my meta. Make sense? Meta.

I mean I don't think that's wholly inaccurate but I also don't see how telling me I'm trying to metaread everyone is a criticism of my play? I've been on kind of a meta kick lately across the board. Part of it I think is talking to Ellibereth about townplay.

Incoming self-defence that's more trying to help you see how I play:

I use meta primarily to nullify tells and reads, not to pinpoint people as town or scum.

So my general thought process is something like:
- Oh shit, Something_Smart is doing a ton of things that are SuperTown.
- But Smart is a really good/experienced player... he could probably fake those as scum.
- Okay, I'll metadive his scumgames to see if he can fake that kind of content easily. (I didn't read his towngames at all, because I was trying to nullify a towntell, not a scumtell)
- Doesn't look like he creates that kind of content effortlessly as scum. He's probably town here.

Same thing with Red:
- Red is making a bunch of nuanced posts that read like he's coming at things from a town perspective.
- I've played 2 scumgames with Red, and skimming those ISOs, he comes across as an actual crazy person.
- Stands to reason that he's not scum here, because he can't fake that content.

Then consider NSG:
- NSG has produced very little game-relevant content when she's been here.
- I know her towngame, and her gameplay this early game is not something I've seen before from town-NSG.
- Doesn't look like it's just NAI null shit, so she's probably scum here.

My reads come from the game I'm in. Then I get paranoid as to whether what I'm reading is just a NAI nulltell. So I go check their meta and see if their behaviour is something I should expect from them all the time.

You were literally just read incorrectly by meta in the game we just played together. From that, I can reasonably argue that you shift your meta effortlessly, and, as scum, are steps ahead of your previous scumgames. It would be idiotic for me to go and metaread you when that's exactly how people got you wrong in that game. So my read on you has been solely based on this game.

[Mathdino]

Because if it doesn't make sense for scum-me to progress on NSG like that, then her scumread on me is no bueno.

I mean, scum can do things that don't make sense...

But *I* don't do things against my win condition.

Even if I were scum, winning this game is not my win condition.

[Mathdino]

what scumgames are you referring to besides anything upick? i skimmed jester nightless.

Creature's bastard micro?

Where I tunneled a single player for the entire portion of the post-RVS game.

[Mathdino]

OK thank you for enlightening me to your process and the subtle flattery. I will ask though, if Bambi is in your blindspot (assuming this because she's not in your meta example list) then why aren't you pushing her?

Didn't realise it was flattery, but you're welcome
It's more that I just straight up listen to players who say they can't be meta-read, and who say they tailor their scum strategy around people trying to meta-read them.

My history with Bambi:
- Marked For Death (Jay-town me-town): Lightly scumread on D1 then locktowned for the whole game.
- JK9++ (Jay-town me-town): Ran them up to L-1 for not doing anything. They fakeclaimed vig and got shot.
- Jester Nightless (Jay-town me-scum): Hard-pocketed knowing they would pretty much follow my reads after winning JK9++ (and bussing N_M D1), endgamed them.
- Masons and Monks (Jay-scum me-town): They sheeped me the entire game onto 3 scum lynches, brought me to LyLo, hard towntelled like 5 times, and quickhammered when I chose wrong.
- Tit for Tat (Jay-town me-town): Ignored my reads, speedlynched one of my locktownreads, fakeclaimed jailkeeper the next day, got mislynched.

I have exactly 1 game of reading Bambi correctly. And trust me, I've been keeping up with their games for a while now (it's part of why I subbed into Masons and Monks).

I've been metaing them but I also know that if I'm constantly wrong on a player, I need to do something differently to be able to read them right. I'm not sure what that is yet.

Earlier, this process happened:
- Hmm, Bambi warning us about the L-1 so openly but not taking their vote off is a scumtell, sure, but not actually something I expect scum would do.
- But wait, Bambi has an insanely high scum winrate and has fooled me before. Need to check their games.
- Ctrl+F'd "hammer" in all their games, was like "fuck, they're actually MORE cautious about hammers as town than as scum".
- Bambi's online, might as well ask about it.
- Reasonable answer, okay, looks like that situation is all NAI.
I don't push my reads on people if the meta indicates that my tells are NAI.

I'd still policy lynch them if it got to that point, but I don't consider voteparking on Bambi to really be playing mafia, however satisfying it might be.

[Mathdino]

i am in no way okay with this suddenly becoming a penguin wagon after you just got through convincing me penguin was town -_-

[Mathdino]

i am in no way okay with this suddenly becoming a penguin wagon after you just got through convincing me penguin was town -_-

Well he promised us a vote and he lied. Lynch all liars right?

terrible tell, i don't policy lynch EVERYTHING

[Mathdino]

Incoming case on NSG, which is going to be mixed with "NSG shouldn't be scumreading me", so uh
yeah you guys are gonna be pretty annoyed by this

[Mathdino]

Spoiler: From Tit for Tat (NSG town)

northsidegal is actually scum.

DOUBLY so if Creature turns out to be town through the day. Creature's read was right on point. I'll give NSG a couple chances to explain to me why exactly I think that.
And yes, this is a test, the response may very well affect this read. Please do actually explain why I, personally, Mathdino, am scumreading you. I wanna see if you're seeing the same things.

oh, so this is where it started. my guess is that it's mainly my activity, but if i had to guess i'd also say it's probably because of my questioning / vote of jmo.

I'm not like 100% confident enough in this read to speedlynch her without a reaction.

That was half a lie; she didn't really explain how to read her, but we went over our respective scumgames and she more demonstrated that I COULD read her. Honestly I think we've just seen each other too much at this point. I don't expect her to be the easiest sort ever for others but I'd like to think I can gutread her, even if she's only posted however few times.

Math, i'm going to say this right now, and it applies to anyone who thinks they can metaread me off of the first few posts in a game, now or in the future – you're only going to get burned. Keep going down this path and one of these days i'll have a good start as scum and will get false cleared or one of these days i'll get lynched as town early for just having a weak rvs. It's already happened to RC before. I honestly don't really enjoy the prevailing conception about my meta so far (i think it's just a function of me rolling town so much more often than scum) and so i'm waiting for the game where it's disproven – i'd rather that not be this game where my town flip is what disproves it.

@NSG: Benefit of the doubt here. Why did you not seem to give a shit that I was locktowning you early on?

because i believe that

you

believe that you can read me based off of three posts. yeah, of course i saw the similarity to anything upick – the thing is, i expect you to do the same thing as town. so... it didn't really factor into my read of you at all.

like, it's really as simple as that i think

you

think you can read me from three posts. i know that RC thinks that. so it wasn't really anything out of the ordinary? i also don't really feel like my play was anything out of the ordinary like it was in anything upick where there was a disconnect between

my own meta read of myself

based off of a few posts and what you were saying.

tl;dr: I fake-locktowned NSG to see her reaction. She didn't react all paranoid-like, so I called her as scum. She still didn't react all paranoid like, noting that

she believes that I think I can read her very easily

.

Spoiler: From Be Yourself (NSG-SK)

I sincerely doubt the ability of

anyone

to accurately read me within my first

ten

posts in a game. I'm not creature – yes, I can obvtown as town – the fact that I apparently haven't done so by page 8 is supposed to be a scumclaim? I also get the feeling that people are just equating my post length with my towniness rather than anything i'm actually saying. I can write walls as scum – it doesn't mean anything and i've done it before.

math, you're making the same mistake that katy made with regard to my "paranoid theory" comment – assuming that i was making that point as anything more than a simple observation / point of discussion. if i was "jumping on you" for that, i would've moved my vote to you (same with the postie/rt comment). i believed that it was entirely reasonable that you actually were regretting joining for whatever reason unrelated to your alignment, and given that i would have no way of proving what your disappointment was caused by, it would've been an entirely pointless avenue of discussion to persue.

No but that's the thing. It was a bad point, and given the pace of the game and the players already willing to go after me, it was fanning a flame that shouldn't have been fanned in the first place.

I would've understood if you, for example, pressure-wagoned me (like Cheeky), or pressure-interrogated me for more info. But you floated an idea out there in an already unstable gamestate that would only add more noise.

I'm not sure what you're scumreading me for here. Are you trying to say that me giving a short observation on a topic that someone else had brought up brings you materially closer to a lynch than choosing to hop on the wagon would? Like, i have no idea what "floating an idea out there in an unstable gamestate that only adds more noise" is actually supposed to mean, nor how it would make me scum.
[snip]
Math, how confident would you say you are in your read on me as of right now?

i resent being called a lowposter.

and also being voted because people are getting bored.

one second.

What's your read on Dino?

conflicted – i'm not sure how much he actually believes that the "prefers town" comment makes me scum and i know that he doesn't put a lot of weight into early game reads so it seems kind of strange, but as scum i would've expected him to try to pocket me more by defending me rather than trying to use knowledge of my meta to get a lynch on me.

i still scumread mathdino for his push on me and the entire weak justification for that. feels like he's trying to use a claimed knowledge of my meta as a tool

against

me moreso than to try to read me, if that makes sense – he's never once really tried to engage with me or to try to figure out

why

i'm not posting so much and if he really knows my meta and he's being genuine then he should know that inactivity doesn't always make me scum.

From here, we get the inconsistent OMGUS reaction, with (notably) the deflection with "you're just trying to activity-tell me", when that wasn't my case in the first place.

Near the end, she notes that she thinks scum-me would try to pocket her rather than try to use meta against her, but much later on pivots to "Math is scum for trying to use meta against me". I don't know how much she believes either of these statements, but if she legit thought my scum-strategy would just be to pocket her as town, that's clearly against what I'm doing here.

Anyway, read the spoilers, the reactions are different. Yadda yadda scum by meta. That shit is boring. The kicker is here:

i don't really like the idea of policy lynching just to set up for future games – it feels kind of weird, like playing towards a future wincondition or something. not even a future wincondition, but maybe even just sacrificing parts of this game to have a potentially better next game. i'd really rather just lynch scumreads.

doesn't it also assume that whoever we're policy lynching is on the losing team for this game?

She shows understanding of how I view this game. She also knows that when there are multiple win conditions, I'm not the type of person to stick to just one. She doesn't like it, but she understands it.

I've been fooled by scum-N_M, scum-CT, and scum-Bambi, and I've misread town-Gamma. And since she read Polygamist, she'd also know I've been fooled by scum-RedFlavor. I have not played with Penguin or Smart as town.

The ONLY player in this game I have a consistent track record of reading is NSG. She also knows that I think I can read her very easily. She also knows that I think she's an easily readable player; she demonstrated that in Be Yourself.

So suppose she's town and I'm scum. I obviously have to assume I'm going to win (because if I lose I'm out of the next game). And I'm more likely to roll town next game than scum.

So why would I want to remove the one player in this playerlist that I think I can read 100% of the time, when doing so would be blatantly against future wincons?

She clearly believes I'm actually trying to get her lynched, so from her POV, this can't be a case of "Math is just softpushing me for towncred". And she also understands why I wanted to policy lynch Bambi and N_M (so I wouldn't have to deal with them next game when I 5/7 roll town).

Scumreading me for pushing her is not only indicative of scum-NSG, it's also ridiculous given that she's framed me as someone who thinks I can read her 100% of the time (to the point where I signed up to spectate her Newbie Games during Tit for Tat just to be better at reading her).

The response to this is "something something WIFOM". Whatever. She's right that I play politically, and she's goddamn right I will play to future wincons. NSG is the last person I would want to mislynch, and the fact that I'm voting her right now is indicative of how sure I am on this. I would just add on:
- NSG knows she can obvtown as town, and knows that I face burden of proficiency in reading her correctly. Thinking I'm scum opportunistically jumping on her when in reality that would be suicide, is bad, and consistent with her reaction in Be Yourself.
- NSG three times framed my case as "you're just activity telling me" when that was explicitly not the case.

tl;dr: She OMGUS'd in a situation where it made no sense for scum-Mathdino to be trying to remove her from future games. NSG is scum.

[Mathdino]

I will accept lynching {N_M, Bambi} today on the condition that NSG MUST be lynched on D2 or D3.

I'll need to see a case on Gamma; the biggest point against him right now is him being active everywhere else, but that's not much.

Cheeky is a bad D1 lynch.

Smart and Red are town.

Penguin I'm not nearly annoyed enough by right now to lynch him, especially not before doing a metadive (tm).

[Mathdino]

oh yeah and NSG did the thing scum do where they throw out good ideas on "principle" rather than actually giving reasons (like Smart) or having a semi-legitimate reason to be avoiding the discussion altogether (like the newbie listmod, who was likely annoyed at me and may possibly have been PM'd by a very angry Derpy Hooves over my trying to "break" Newbie 1856)

To clarify, this has not been a self-defence in general, this is a "NSG in particular, believing that I think I can read her 100% off 8 posts, should not be scumreading me". No one else here has framed me as someone who thinks I can read NSG 100% of the time (except CT I guess but her read on me is more nuanced and has less history).

In fact, I feel like Not_Mafia has actually been avoiding me and SHOULD be scumreading/intent-to-hammer-ing me, and I think that's actually scum-indicative for him, given that he knows starting up that ageless 1v1 again is likely to actually get him policy lynched.

[Mathdino]

good old miltank

:miltank:

[Mathdino]

hey N_M can you explain your redflavor vote in a witty one-liner

Lucky 13

and can you also explain this joke like you're JokeExplainBot
cuz i don't get it

[Mathdino]

Gamma just taking potshots is weird, seems more about discrediting than gamesolving

and the vote on gamma is because of this, yeah?

[Mathdino]

sounds good

scumteam is NSG + {N_M, CT, Gamma}

[Mathdino]

See Math, now you've left me Iittle choice but to lynch NSG to determine your alignment, which is frustrating because I'd rather have both of you as town on my side.

Another thing I find odd that you haven't considered in regards to NSG's alignment is your tendency to scum read PRs. Why isn't her being a potential PR factored into your discussion when you're acutely aware of this flaw in your town meta?

I don't publicly PR hunt.

But yeah, this has crossed my mind. NSG claims that she would've played that game exactly the same as VT (although she claimed it only in this thread rather than in that thread or over sitechat when we talked about it, so idk if I believe that (she might be trying to shake my confidence)).

I reviewed Tit for Tat after it ended for the flaw in my theory of reading NSG, and it occurred to me that I wasn't really even trying to read her early game -- instead I was so gung ho about the reaction test that I based my read around that. I think had I just played normally I would've ended up townreading her early game.

I guess what I'm saying is I just think I'm better now? Like, obviously if she claims PR, then fuck me, my legacy of continually scumreading PRs lives on. And hopefully if she IS a PR she's a tracker
I can't bank on all my scumreads being potential PRs though. That tendency doesn't solely apply to her. It applied to literally every PR in Tit for Tat (sorry Gamma/Luca).

In all honesty I do find NSG's lack of frustration at Math constantly tunneling her, over a few games, rather strange. Like yes, she's disagreeing, but I think she either is the most patient person on MS or she finds it hard to produce convincing emotion as scum.

If it were me I would've blown up at Math by now.

Math is trying too hard AI for you?

ehhh
my history of games with NSG:
- Marked for Death: I locktowned her on page 2 and she townread me enough to get me shot. Such innocent times.
- Creature's 9:12: Scum-me called her RC hydra scum for not posting (while letting Smooth Criminal RC post), then she posted like twice, townread me, and I locktowned her.
(at this point we have a discussion about each other's scum-meta gearing up for Team Mafia and I familiarise myself with her meta; she claimed she was easy to read but that was months ago)
- Anything uPick: Scum-me locktowned her preemptively, she got paranoid, we didn't really interact much but I basically hard-defended her until lategame, where I tried to activity-scumtell her. She didn't really seem to care; just came back and did her thing.
- Be Yourself: You remember this, but for the benefit of others, I hardscumread SK-her off like 3 posts and tunneled her to a lynch. She reacted badly.
- Tit for Tat: I got caught up in Fancy Play Syndrome, scumread her, she disappeared from the game while posting in other (town) games, I got pissy. She came back on D2 being like "Hey what's up?", I was like "Where the fuck were you?" and she was like "idk". At some point I realised she was either vig or scum and let it go.

- This game.

I guess what I'm saying is she seems to react totally patiently as town and reacts with the most frustration when she's scum, across a sample size of one game.

I think she played scum once against a town RC who figured out she was scum, so that might be comparable, given that she's compared me and RC in the past? That said, she also reacted super badly to town RC tunneling town NSG somewhere else IIRC, so idk about that.

[Mathdino]

Math is trying too hard AI for you?

Something something it's the way I do it?

I don't really want to self-meta how AI my effort levels are because that forces me into a certain effort-level in the future to get townreads. You can go read my ISOs in my scumgames to see what the most efforty posts are I guess.

Anything uPick I was pretty burned out of the entire thing, but that was also because we lost 3 scum in a row.
Jester Nightless was nightless so I had to get a lynch on literally every player other than Bambi.
and Creature's micro was full of townies who did absolutely nothing.

[Mathdino]

See Math, now you've left me Iittle choice but to lynch NSG to determine your alignment, which is frustrating because I'd rather have both of you as town on my side.

I don't think this really works the way you think it does?

NSG scumflip doesn't clear me I don't think.

NSG townflip in my opinion does clear me because of the logic I used above. You'd have to believe the following:
- Scum-me plays to future wincons (not a stretch, I don't see why you wouldn't believe this)
- I believe my future wincon will be town (I also openly prefer town)
- Town-me believes the game is easier to win when NSG is in the game because she's easy to read (also not a stretch, I literally have a spreadsheet with data on NSG's meta)
- Town-me believes there isn't anyone else in the playerlist that I would find easier to read, thus making NSG literally the worst possible D1/D2 mislynch for scum-me right now
And I guess you'd also have to mix that with
- This isn't some elaborate WIFOM gambit to sacrifice NSG (and lower my future chances of winning), clear myself as town, and win this game. But me planning all this out requires me to also think that I could successfully mislynch town-NSG (a lolworthy premise given how townish she is as town) AND that people would actually give a shit about this defence in this gamestate.

Not to give you any #greatideas but I feel like my flip is actually more indicative for NSG than vice versa

tl;dr: I'm either right about NSG or I'm scum with NSG

[Mathdino]

Btw this post happened in Tit for Tats spectator thread
Subject: Open 714: Unspoiled Spectator/Dead Chat

Mathdino sure is carrying out an exquisite dance around Northside. [Gawks]
I'm not familar with Northside's town game, but she's acting pretty much the way she did back in Open 701 where she was scum. Mathdino goes like

Mathdino: I know Northside's meta very well.
[Northside proceeds showing her scum meta]
Mathdino: Northside is locktown.
[Me: ...]

So Mathdino admitted to lying about thinking Northside is locktown and actually scumreads her? Starts making more sense. However, why is he so insistent on "my read on Northside may change depending on her reaction?" It's almost as if he wants to wagon Northside but not actually lynch her; also taking account that he's clearly campaigning against her without actually stating reasons.

In which her former partner agrees with my scumread on her
So I feel like NSG claiming she plays the same as VT and PR is false

[Mathdino]

I feel like it's getting to a point where we have to lynch one or the other for our sanity, and following Math's logic that: If NSG is town, even though he caused a mislynch, he is still town... It's probably better to lynch Math as he's saying her flip isn't going to determine his alignment anyway.

wat

If NSG is scum, my alignment is indeterminate. I can't honestly tell you I don't bus in micros, because I have.

If NSG is town, I'm town by virtue of "what the fuck is Math doing trying to get a mislynch on town-NSG hurting his future games".

If I'm town, NSG is highly likely scum, because I'm likely right.

If I'm scum, NSG alignment is still indeterminate, because something something godly busplay.

You lynch the more likely person to be scum.

[Mathdino]

i can't ignore a read just because of the setup, and the counter to what mathdino is saying holds perfectly true for me. if "why would scum mathdino try to lynch nsg" is a point you're going to make, how can you ignore "why would scum nsg try to lynch mathdino"?

Points for creativity, but it doesn't work backwards at all.

I've never at any point said "yep NSG believes she can read me perfectly". Hell, I have strong reason NOT to believe that you believe that, given Tit for Tat, where you shot someone because you thought I was scum.

So unless your argument is "scum-NSG just wants Dino around in later games because he's fun to play with", that's a trash argument.

[Mathdino]

could you explain how it doesn't make sense to you?

It's as Math said; if he believes he can read you why would he want you out of the game d1, where if you lose he can't keep you around to read in future games?

why would

i

want math out of the game when i respect his townplay and feel that i have a pretty good grasp on his scumgame?

Respecting my townplay only works if we both roll town.

Like the whole point of this is that I think I can read you, and am thus more dangerous to you on opposite alignments.

I mean do you think I should just be townreading you for the OMGUS?

[Mathdino]

wat

If NSG is scum, my alignment is indeterminate. I can't honestly tell you I don't bus in micros, because I have.

If NSG is town, I'm town by virtue of "what the fuck is Math doing trying to get a mislynch on town-NSG hurting his future games".

If I'm town, NSG is highly likely scum, because I'm likely right.

If I'm scum, NSG alignment is still indeterminate, because something something godly busplay.

You lynch the more likely person to be scum.

To be frank, saying "if nsg is town i'm town because I'd never push her as scum" and "if i'm town nsg is scum because i'm right" is an idiotic double standard.

Something something conditionals, something something propositional logic.

It's not a double standard because the scenario here is town-Math and scum-NSG. So when I say "If NSG is town" I'm describing an improbable scenario anyway, but under that improbable scenario, I'm still HIGHLY LIKELY town.

Like I can write up a rough "where I'm at in Bayesian terms" here but I don't think anyone would care about that.

[Mathdino]

If NSG is town, I'm town by virtue of "what the fuck is Math doing trying to get a mislynch on town-NSG hurting his future games".

He would have to be playing an extremely self-assured scumgame to be planning for the future in addition to trying to win this game, and since there are apparently several people here who know his scumgame I'd think that as scum he would prioritize winning this game (since he'd HAVE to do that to not be eliminated) over anything else in the later games.

The more times I repeat it without fully explaining it, the sillier/more idiotic it's going to sound.

I've laid out all the assumptions you'd have to make before agreeing with "If NSG is town, I'm town". That's an argument I'm mainly making to respond to Cheeky's "we have to flip one to determine the other's alignment", because I think she has it wrong. That's ALSO an argument for "NSG shouldn't be scumreading me for this". But it's not one I particularly care to focus on that much.

See here for the full argument:

NSG townflip in my opinion does clear me because of the logic I used above. You'd have to believe the following:
- Scum-me plays to future wincons (not a stretch, I don't see why you wouldn't believe this)
- I believe my future wincon will be town (I also openly prefer town)
- Town-me believes the game is easier to win when NSG is in the game because she's easy to read (also not a stretch, I literally have a spreadsheet with data on NSG's meta)
- Town-me believes there isn't anyone else in the playerlist that I would find easier to read, thus making NSG literally the worst possible D1/D2 mislynch for scum-me right now
And I guess you'd also have to mix that with
- This isn't some elaborate WIFOM gambit to sacrifice NSG (and lower my future chances of winning), clear myself as town, and win this game. But me planning all this out requires me to also think that I could successfully mislynch town-NSG (a lolworthy premise given how townish she is as town) AND that people would actually give a shit about this defence in this gamestate.

I think the last point is what people have an issue with.

[Mathdino]

this is going to be a really silly question, human to human i'm so sorry

Do you think
that I think
that you think
that you can read me correctly almost 100% of the time?

[Mathdino]

Also, if you're trying to use the argument back at me, you're acknowledging that it objectively holds ground, right?

So why are you still scumreading me? It's like you're responding to Mathdino saying "NSG is scum because town-NSG realises I'm town" with "But NSG is town from town-Math's perspective by the same argument!"

Like, you haven't refuted it at all outside of the "political push" idea. I maintain that I've been politically playing this game very badly, given that I've antagonised:
- Not_Mafia
- Bambi
- Penguin
- Cheeky
- And finally, you

If I'm gunning for safe pushes, I'm doing a shit-tier job at it.

[Mathdino]

Why are you scumreading him for something you know that is just a thing he does then (being bad at realtime interaction)? And what is playing politically?

i'm saying that's what i know if his

scumgame

, that he's worse at realtime interaction as scum than as town.

playing "politically" is fabricating your reads in such a way to try to get rid of players where it hurts you to have them around and keeping around players that benefit you to have them around. an example for mathdino would be keeping newbies around who townread a loud / dominant playstyle and getting rid of the more experienced players who might see through it. something_smart can probably describe this better than i can.

in this game, i think math's "political" play is evident in the way that he backed off of all of his scumreads before me after it was clear that it wasn't working for him.

I'm not sure where you got the "worse at realtime interaction" idea.

How in god's name is it unreasonable to you that I've been scumreading you off your barren ISO?

Like jesus christ you told me in Anything uPick that "anyone with a grasp of my meta should be scumreading me". So you clearly have it in you to acknowledge when you've been playing to your scum meta. And again, you've ALSO framed me as one of two players who thinks we can read you off like 5 posts.

So reading your first 8 posts, you don't think that town-Mathdino pushes you here?

That's actually insane. You're trying to frame this as "well scum-Mathdino plays like this", when you haven't seen me play like this, when I've already refuted the idea of scum-Mathdino doing this, and to top it off, you haven't explained why town-Mathdino DOESN'T PLAY LIKE THIS. My entire scumread on you is based on "town-NSG doesn't play like this"!

playing "politically" is fabricating your reads in such a way to try to get rid of players where it hurts you to have them around and keeping around players that benefit you to have them around. an example for mathdino would be keeping newbies around who townread a loud / dominant playstyle and getting rid of the more experienced players who might see through it. something_smart can probably describe this better than i can.

Just read jester nightless

tfw something_smart is FMPOV the worst player to have around when i'm scum

[Mathdino]

tl;dr of this argument:

Math: NSG is town
NSG: You seriously think I'm town?
Math: Fuck I mixed up my games, NSG is null
NSG: Math is town by modspew
Math: *rereads everyone's ISOs/meta*
Math: CT why is Penguin town
CT: *explains*
Math: Okay NSG is probscum, read her ISO, it lacks content
NSG: Math is probscum opportunistically jumping on me
Math: NSG is DEFINITELY scum, there's no reason scum-Mathdino removes NSG from the game, town-NSG shouldn't be scumreading me because from her POV, scum-Math wouldn't want to remove NSG
NSG: Math's ISO is consistent with Math's political scum philosophy that he shared
NSG: I'm also town because scum-NSG wouldn't want to remove Math
Math: Okay but if you're using that card, you accept it's a good argument, and shouldn't still be scumreading me
Math: Plus that argument doesn't work the other way because FMPOV you don't think you can easily read me

Like thus far I've showed that NSG's ISO is consistent with her early-scumgame, it's consistent with her reactions to being scumread as scum, and it's INCONSISTENT with her towngame given her other statements about me .

She's shown that my ISO is consistent with a vague definition of my scumgame that I defined in our Team Mafia thread (pre-game), and hasn't shown at all how it's inconsistent with my towngame.

In fact, she's admitted that she knows town-Math thinks he can read her off 8 posts, yet she still thinks my scumread is opportunistic and can't come from town.

[Mathdino]

I tried to mislynch town-Gamma when I was scum because he was devoid of content.

I think I'm sensing a pattern of Gamma getting suspected on D1 a LOT, and also figured out that town-Gamma tends to become pretty damn obvious the more he plays.

So I'm uninterested in a D1 Gamma lynch, especially when scum-NSG is an option, and N_M is an option.

[Mathdino]

And you think that for scum-me, lynching you is the game-winning move?

Like, as opposed to getting lynches on Bambi, N_M, or Penguin?

[Mathdino]

I'm not sure where you got the "worse at realtime interaction" idea.

i recall you saying it to describe your own scumgame in a game i read/was in, though i can't remember specifically where.

Meh. I downplay my scumgame on purpose.

Because my ISO isn't barren in the slightest? Like I said, you keep saying this and it keeps not being true.

When i said that in anything upick it's because it was a valid statement. Here, it's not. I don't understand the comparison you're trying to draw here.

It certainly was, as of your 8th post. Now, it's not.

For one, mathdino this game

didn't

push me after my first eight posts – even after the mixup was cleared up, you thought i was

town

based on what i'd posted so far:

i thought i explained the mixup already

is why i was all weirded out about NSG's weirded-out-ness

okay i actually do think NSG is town *for now*

Then, in a span where

i didn't post anything

, you switched over to me being scum and made a terrible "lolcase" on me. So what changed?

What changed is I sat down and actually ISO'd you, something I hadn't done previously.

What also changed is I removed myself from the bias of appreciating that you were townreading me off modspew.

What ALSO changed is my reason for townreading you in the first place was nullified because I actually thought for more than 2 seconds about our interaction in Tit for Tat.

You KNOW that I often sit down and reevaluate things on reread. I had a bunch of things on the to-do list this game that I just passed you off as gut-town for the paranoia (without thinking of Tit for Tat). You're trying to frame a narrative where there is none.

Like, yes, I often flip reads on people when they haven't posted anything to actually change that. Usually it's scum that calls me out for that kind of inconsistency.

this is where i'm coming from when i say "political".

finally, to go back to your original question, i expect you to have moved on from my first eight posts in the game by now.

1. I trust CT's read on Penguin more than my own. I said multiple times in the game that I was biased over Penguin, and multiple times have asked others to weigh in.

2. You do?
Why?
I didn't move past your first 8 posts in Be Yourself.

And I HAVE moved past your first 8 posts, I just got through showing why your counter-scumread is inconsistent with your view of me as a player. I think you're scum off your first 8 posts, yeah. Like, nullscum.

I think you're lockscum for responding to me just like in Be Yourself, with the victimisation (Oh I hate being activity-telled), the counterscumread (I think Mathdino is being opportunistic), and the completely inconsistent read of me (Math is town by modspew, oh wait his read on me is weird, oh yeah he's scum for pushing me). AND the fact that you STILL haven't shown why my game is inconsistent with my towngame.

Again.
I've shown why I think your play is inconsistent with your towngame.
You have not shown why my play is inconsistent with my towngame.

Your push on me is lazy as hell. You described a theory of a scumgame that I haven't even played yet, but you've also run into hallmarks of my towngame. Like tunneling you off your first 8 posts. Or flipping my reads after sitting down and reevaluating at night when the thread dies down.

Or the fact that I told you my towngame was political as well. Something you haven't even acknowledged yet.

[Mathdino]

hey penguin it's great that you're pushing gamma and all

but what's your resolution on the math/NSG 1v1

[Mathdino]

ugh see i know i've definitively won rhetorically

i realised halfway through 625 that that was more of a "look at how awesome i am at mafia" post than a "am i actually right about this" post

like we're at the point of "Is northsidegal dumb or scum?"

and that's just

not a fun place to be in

[Mathdino]

oh yeah i thought gamma's theory is the same as my "scum-Mathdino doesn't mislynch people he can read when he's town"

earlier i thought that he was saying scum would want to mislynch people they wouldn't wanna play with later on

and i countered with "i think i know what you're saying, but policythirsty town would also want to mislynch people they wouldn't wanna play with, so lol NAI"

[Mathdino]

Regardless of which of you is right

Thankfully, NSG is still scum

[Mathdino]

oh boy how about we flip NSG to determine gamma's alignment

[Mathdino]

oh boy how about we flip NSG to determine gamma's alignment

that will definitely work.

can't tell if sarcasm

[Mathdino]

i have a really horribad feeling that NSG-scum will claim tracker or doc when run up :/

[Mathdino]

Gamma am I defending scum you? D:

I don't think so, but it's not something that's 100% off the table. I think your townread feels rather natural but I haven't looked at it to hard past the first few sentences.
btw Mathdino's post after this confirms the setup as goon-goon if he's scum

what the fuck
i'm gonna need you to stop speculating on the role indicativeness of the things i say

[Mathdino]

Yeah giving NSG scum ideas about how to make the most of her lynch is a great idea. I don't understand the point of this post.

you don't know what my plan is

also people seem to get really anxious about the idea of "giving scum ideas" on this site when the reality is that scum isn't braindead and me saying "scum optimal strategy is to do [x]" either
A. preempts them actually doing it
B. forces them to do something suboptimal instead

it's fine, things are fine

i know what is and isn't dangerous to say and i also know how to WIFOM the scum lol

interesting irrelevant point: the last time you warned me against "giving scum ideas" you were scum yourself lol

[Mathdino]

Gamma am I defending scum you? D:

I don't think so, but it's not something that's 100% off the table. I think your townread feels rather natural but I haven't looked at it to hard past the first few sentences.
btw Mathdino's post after this confirms the setup as goon-goon if he's scum

what the fuck
i'm gonna need you to stop speculating on the role indicativeness of the things i say

Yeah no I'll say what I want. If you're scum that's most likely a discredit move meaning you believe both of those roles could be in the game, making it goon-goon

what the fuck

both of those roles could be in the game

in 2 different columns of this setup

gamma you're so bad when it comes to spewing yourself and others' roles please just stop

[Mathdino]

also if i were a mafia roleblocker how does me saying that imply to you that i believe NSG is actually tracker/doctor and isn't just me casually bullshitting

like it's hard for me to break down how bad that argument is without doing something to the effect of WELL HOW DO YOU KNOW IM NOT SCUM DOING SO-AND-SO and you being like "okay i guess you ARE scum WIFOMing me out"

i'm just trying to tell you that your spec is bad and continuing to do this is not helpful

[Mathdino]

uh just for the record guys

gamma never put NSG at L-1

the wagon at the time was
Mathdino, RedFlavor, Gamma Emerald
because cheeky bounced off and voted N_M

...that said this is probably not going to change either of your reads

i would advocate for gamma emerald or cheekyteeky getting checked tonight, those alignments would solve a lot

[Mathdino]

so what are the odds jay puts himself on the exact same wagon as his scumbuddy

that's not a leading question, i'm legit trying to figure this out

[Mathdino]

Seriously? How am I not obv town to you people? I don't see the point of wasting an invest on me when there are slots that are much more dubious.

okay raybells

[Mathdino]

interesting irrelevant point: the last time you warned me against "giving scum ideas" you were scum yourself lol

the real question is, did she get any ideas from you?

Nah, that was actually a scumslip that game. There were no possible scum that could've gotten the particular idea. My assuming she was dumb (rather than scum) was partially what lost the game.

Edit: Gamma I don't know how you could possibly read Math vs NSG and think we're both town at this point.

I mean I could maybe understand it if you had amazing reasons for NSG-town (which clears me, I stand by that) but you don't.

[Mathdino]

NSG but I don't trust my judgement hence why I'm asking the opinions of others. I can't shake the feeling Math is scum but I also have read him incorrectly in the past. All of his actions make sense to me as scum.

that's dumb

it's a towntell of mine to get myself cleared by any means necessary

[Mathdino]

gamma your reads are insanely self-centred like always

like fuck man all it takes to get a townread from you is not jumping on your wagon when doing that would be the most nakedly obvious scum move possible?

[Mathdino]

If they're both town I'm never going to let Math live this down.

if we're both town then NSG and i are probably never speaking of this again

like i said, my read on her when i first voted was null to null-scum

it hardened to lockscum when she decided my push was opportunistic and inconsistent with my towngame when this is exactly how i played in be yourself

[Mathdino]

If they're both town I'm never going to let Math live this down.

if we're both town then NSG and i are probably never speaking of this again

like i said, my read on her when i first voted was null to null-scum

it hardened to lockscum when she decided my push was opportunistic and inconsistent with my towngame when this is exactly how i played in be yourself

Except that it's not the same as BYM. There you were much less explainy and scummy in the self-aware sense. You didn't care how you came across and were much more aggressive/pessimistic. The convincing town fire is missing in all your words.

what can i say
i was #mulched that game
i play to my audience
and there, i had to deal with mulch/firebringer being mulch/firebringer
RT being RC
kiana being kiana
etc etc

the thing is i see this game in many ways as a sequel to both BYM and T4T
so there's a point where it's impossible not to come up with meta-based reads, along with "you should be reading me this way" reads

i am also straight up less confident, or at least not confident enough to just shout everyone down
there i had RC as backup for NSG-scum
which was a major help
here i've basically had to do all the work myself

[Mathdino]

How many of the "standard scum" were involved in the creation of the setup he "broke." Math himself said he's biased. Piss off with that weak crap. You're grasping.

ummmmmmm

i said i was biased because you reacted to my strategy with "that's garbage" and left it at that
and then reacted to my policy lynches with "grow up"

incidentally, a newbie game in which i fakeclaimed tracker to try to out the tracker and get scum reactions just ended

i got in a nice convo with thor postgame about it

thor reacted in a scum-indicative way to my strategy, incidentally

POINT IS

what i said was you are biased because you are the newbie listmod

NSG has no reason to be biased against my attempts at setup optimisation

[Mathdino]

gamma --> NSG is an absolutely horrible first two lynches tbh

[Mathdino]

i don't actually think they're the scumteam tbh

flipping NSG to determine gamma's alignment was a joke

although if you think that

who am i to argue i guess :/

Edit: oh boy that's a great way to canvas my vote
try harder

[Mathdino]

how the fuck is penguin's reaction to my setup shenanigans more alignment-indicative than NSG's reaction

when penguin is the newbie listmod

and NSG has never shown any negative reaction to setup spec in any context prior to now

[Mathdino]

you gave a standard scum reaction independently of you being the newbie listmod

like in a vacuum or if we were all alts, i'd be like "yo that's scum"

but after a while i realised, no shit you're going to be a little peeved about both it and me continuously

i was biased on you because you seemed to dismiss everything i was doing for the first 10 pages or so, and AtE doesn't work on me to the point that it makes me tunnel harder

regardless, i agree gamma is incorrect i guess? idk what you're looking for here

[Mathdino]

Thanks. So, I really want Gamma to explain it since his response was "lmao backtracked" after he posted nonsense that I questioned.

Really am going to bed now, so I'll check back in in about 8 hours.

I feel like your reasons for pushing me are bad and you should know it so you're probably scum

stop copying me and stop OMGUSing

you're at the point where basically no one townreads you

is EVERYONE dumb or scum to you

my argument against NSG works because she and i have a history

is there any reason you think penguin should know better or something

you are also aware you are often scumread on D1 so wat

[Mathdino]

about 3 times this IRL day i was like "holy shit is bambi doing the thing where she just lies back and lets town destroy itself"

and then i realised yes she is VLA for yesterday and today




is it wrong that i want to know how i'm town

i already knew gamma was a bad wagon lol

[Mathdino]

Mathdino, who would you vote if you were scum in this game?

By vote I mean try to mislynch or maybe bus

assuming i'm not literally scum with one of bambi/N_M

then yeah i would lynch one of them to not have to play with them in future games

S_S would be the player i'd be afraid of and would save for the NK

besides that, probably gamma or penguin

would avoid {SS, NSG, CT, Red} lynchpool

idk who i would bus, it would depend on how daytalk went, i typically plan busses out

[Mathdino]

northsidegal (3): Mathdino, Red Flavor, PenguinPower
Gamma Emerald (2): Not_Mafia, Something_Smart
Mathdino (2): Bambietta Basterbine, northsidegal
Not_Mafia (1): CheekyTeeky
PenguinPower (1): Gamma Emerald

NSG wagon is good

N_M scum is still consistent with NSG scum