Micro 829: The Coalition [Endgame]

[Irrelephant11]

Confirm

@nsg: regular v/la on Saturdays and Sundays

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: skitter30
HEAL: Gamma, Chara, My Milked Eek, no lunch, Irrelephant11

[Irrelephant11]

My scumgame and towngame both get me widely townread in almost every circumstance
I'm town tho so there's that

@skitter I'm mostly experimenting with mechanics/RVS, is the answer to your question

HURT: My Milked Eek, no lunch
VOTE: no lunch

[Irrelephant11]

oh that was an OMGUS? interesting. @nl why did you vote me?

[Irrelephant11]

Aubrey, is no lunch town? y/n

[Irrelephant11]

hm.
Does that lead you to townread them or

[Irrelephant11]

mm I'd like to continue asking for a hard read, but thanks for the advice
does the town ping lead you toward a townread or no?

[Irrelephant11]

wait you scumread him? That's definitely not clear, actually.
Why not engage me? Because I'm scum? Because you don't like my playstyle? Because you don't like me asking you to pin down a read? why?

[Irrelephant11]

why are you voting no lunch and removing him from your coalition?

i think he's quite townie imo

yes, that's exactly why
So far no lunch has gotten quite a few townreads simply be providing some thoughts about the last game.
Getting townread hard and fast by providing IIOA is exactly how I would play earlygame as scum
It didn't even cross my mind this game (and I know I'm town), so it's not how I expect town to play at this stage

therefore...

@Aubrey, sarcasm is hard to read sometimes, especially since I actually

do

have no lunch as my biggest scumread right now. Having read my reasoning, what's your read on no lunch now?

[Irrelephant11]

ehhhhhhh that's fine I guess... (though imo strategy/setup/previous runs all fit into a "townread me! please!" early game scum would like to play here)

@skitter how do you read aubrey

[Irrelephant11]

so your'e saying he feels kinda LAMIST-y to you?

umm sort of yeah

though in a different way than I would usually use that word for
Like I don't think he's pulling crap out of nowhere, I think he believes it is good strategy
I just think he's more likely to say it all as scum than as town
Especially because idk talking about "here's how we should all play this; it's pro-town" kinda signals to scum how to play this to get townread

If anything this game almost flips some of the normal D1 dynamics by making it more important for scum to look towny than it is for them to convince people that any particular player is scummy, and yes, I think no lunch is doing a lot of the first and none of the second and for now I scumread him for it

[Irrelephant11]

Yeah I mean a skitter/me team was my hope going into this

@NL I’ll answer questions tomorrow, that’s a lot of questions and I’m on mobile
Short version is idk if I really believe half the things I’ve said so far this game but I did indeed want to make everyone feel off balance
I don’t want scum feeling comfortable and I want townreads to be hard earned. It’s my best guess as to how to win D1

[Irrelephant11]

Still on mobile so we’ll see how this goes

“Though if you do have a reason for hurting myself and the Eek without going into it I'd love to hear that as well!“
MME was the only one to not confirm, you’re my biggest scumread. I mostly use my vote to keep track of my biggest scumread at all times

“Why do you think I voted you?
Why did you choose to ignore every other part of my presence in the thread and focus on the vote? (passing a coalition is far more important than a lynch. while I agree votes carry a degree of accountability which is very valuable, I just find it strange that your focus was drawn here of all places?)”
I think you voted me for starting the game with votes and a coalition thing. I just did it for reactions (and also a little bit because scum!skitter is the only scum I have reason to be afraid of). It’s less “silly” than RVS usually is, but it *is* random. Am I right about this being why you voted me?
Also I didn’t participate in discussions about the previous game or strategies because I’ve already explained that “town should do this” on page 1/2 is more helpful to scum than town. I’d have much preferred scum had to try to figure out their own strategies than have you and others lay out some steps they could take to get townread easily.

“Scum read via Aubrey...”
Aubrey was around and I wanted to talk about my read on you

“I identified an error...”
I guess I don’t object to bringing up some basic strategies without really advocating for any of them? Idk I’m sort of stuck on how to do pro-town game theory/planning without just hinting things to scum

For the record I actually also get town pings from most of your posts so far. I’m just trying a thing where maybe I think I should scumread you for that

[Irrelephant11]

@Irrelephant11 out of interest, how did you get the opening & closing double quote symbols through your post while mobile posting? I much prefer them, though my mobile browser does not support it.

dunno!

Firstly, MME did confirm.

Oh
lol

As you're using coalition as a way of making scum nervous, I can only assume you're scumreading MME? "For not confirming" is a very poor way of pretending to have a read on somebody. I would call it poor etiquette (faux angleshooting), but much more importantly it is not an in-game read which gives us absolutely nothing with which to help sort you.
But this point is largely an issue of semantics.

I don't actually know what you're saying here. faux angleshooting?

Your volatile coalition strategy definitely has its own merits, and it's not an approach which I resent inherently. I just don't think you're actually using it to sort people.

I'll have to disagree that it's pro-scum to discuss optimal strategies for forming a day one townblock in a game which an accurate day one townblock instantly wins the game for town. But, suit yourself. If you'd like to engage me on it I'd really enjoy that but I get the feeling it's a topic you'd rather not get your hands dirty with.

Why don't you think I'm using it to sort people? I mean, so far most players hadn't posted enough to sort people, but I definitely shook things up.
Honestly, I came in, saw "hey guys, here's some strats" "oh yes, good, you're town" "Yes, town, good, and they're town for also noticing" "such town, good town circle guys"
and while I'm exaggerating I felt like it would be super duper easy for anyone in that early phase to be scum doing some easy non-analysis play and so I decided that if I had to pick out one scum it'd be you.

Also I haven't actually thought through fully if talking about strategies is pro-scum in this setup, it was just my feeling when I saw it. If you think it matters enough that I should change my mind, we can talk about it. I don't know what you mean by "the feeling... you'd rather not get your hands dirty"

If you wanted to talk about your read on me, where was your read?
You were just prodding Aubrey for a read which he had already stated to have a contrary opinion on. His reasoning was better stated than yours. He gave a very clear answer to your question. You continued to question him in a highly unproductive fashion rather than intercepting with your own contrary read.
I'm not sure this is town working on sorting in {no lunch, Aubrey} so much as scum attempting to derail an early accurate town/town read.

I think this is a playstyle difference. I clearly wanted to talk about my read on you, which is why your name was in my mouth. I asked Aubrey because I was curious if someone else could see what I saw before I explained it, and Aubrey was the last person to post, so I thought she might be around. You can see from how I missed her sarcasm that I went into the conversation with a scumread on you, because I was pleasantly surprised she also got a scumread for the same reason as I did, but confused that she hadn't expressed it till then.

If scum is in the more difficult-to-sort players, it effectively forces them to show their hand day one by either derailing a readable coalition, or clumsily forcing themselves into it.
...
If you townread my posts but scumread me because unexplained reasons, I really struggle to feel that this is well motivated.

-Yeah this is a fine strategy if your goal is to win *eventually*. I guess I just get more excited by the idea of winning D1, but that's probably the fool's gold this setup offers to excitable players like me
No, I've explained my reasons. I townread your content, but I think it might be a solid scum strat to set out to be an early strong townread by sheer effort of play/WIM/strat-sharing, etc (which is how I would describe much of you play from the first few pages) so that a townblock forms around them and they can direct who gets in/out of the coalition. Basically, you're playing how I would play the early game as scum, and I scumread you (fwiw, past tense here) for that even as I townread some of the sentences you've said along the way
UNVOTE:
85 - I don't even know what to say here. You just really don't like my playstyle and I happen to have an amount of free time that is contrary to how I'd like to play the early game (i.e. you dislike how I should be *doing more* of what I say I'd like to be doing, but I'm just overgamed and playing from work, so *shrug*).

this pings me a little bit :/

Like you scumread that I wanted everyone off balance or that I *said* I want everyone off balance?

I remember Chara liked his idea of trying to keep the playing field shaky, but has he really made the playing field shaky with his antics? or has he just been a lot of noise?

Ouch
I will say that as interesting as this experimental playstyle has been, it has not been as fun or helpful as I was hoping...

i guess that post was more ideas on theory than any real conclusions besides Aubrey town.


skitter, why did you ask me that question in 101? i'd like to know your thought process.

Hm
I read 104 like "this is all just theory why are you IIOAing"
And then you lampshaded that fact
idk what to do with that

what are you liking about gamma?

the way he flipped suddenly on no lunch then flipped back looks like it comes from town, like it shows early townie engagement imo

I like this from Sky.

Though I flip flop with Gamma.

I think I'm going to HEAL: Skygazer

I'm not sure I've townread anything Aubrey has posted so far (and there's a good amount of posts there, you'd think I would by now)
Others have said that they townread her making fun of the ridiculousness of my questions early on but I think most of those players semi-depended on a scumread of me to get there and I think it's common for scum to "lol you dumb town you" when they think town are being weird and don't want to get caught up in it
VOTE: Aubrey

Aubrey
aslightrain

Why is Aslightrain your runner up?

eh maybe I townread this post, maybe I don't, I can't decide

HEAL: skitter30
I need to see how this feels.

This seems sort of contradictory to "don't overshare your reads using the coalition mechanic"

what are you thinking about no lunch?

cannot for the life of me decide. you and no lunch both are players of the type i find difficult to read.
i think a lot of what no lunch is saying is right and makes logical sense. that's about all i can say about it.

I feel the same about no lunch right about now

what are you thinking about no lunch?

cannot for the life of me decide. you and no lunch both are players of the type i find difficult to read.
i think a lot of what no lunch is saying is right and makes logical sense. that's about all i can say about it.

eh that's fair

rn i think that the way no lunch thought about the previous iteration and came up with a plan and how he presented it seems pro-town and in good-faith and sincere

Wait, see, why isn't it pinging you that this is a majority of your read on the slot though? Like, I feel like every single part of the this could have been done pre-game by someone expecting to be town, and then when no lunch got a scum PM shared it all anyway and just posted a whole bunch about it to get townread
Like I guess I'm probably going overboard by saying it's scummy but I think you're wrong in saying those things are enough for a townread and that's one thing I wanted to get across by voting no lunch earlier

I feel that there are inconsistencies and dissonance in his playstyle. I also think that's incredibly obvious. Is this exclusively attributable to him being scum? Eh, I could talk myself out of that. Actually I'm currently kicking myself for reacting to your defence here, rather than waiting for Irrelephant to come back.

mmm I like the last sentence but I think I've thought of it as both alignments. Still, I'll give you like one town point for it.
I was actually going to ask if chara was pocketing me. Sort of interesting that you thought me/chara was a thing because if so we've taken an interesting route in attacking the town player who was accurately and quickly townread by most of the playerlist.
idk what to think except I will say this would be pretty impressive theater for svs chara/nl

no lunch: i don't know if you've noticed, but i post my thoughts entirely as they come. if i didn't bring up something earlier and disn't specifically say i was waiting to talk about it, it's because it hadn't occurred to me yet.
didn't realize i'd given the impression i was "on your case". i find you hard to read but you're very active so there's a lot for me to consider with you specifically.

pedit: hahaha. well it's not what i thought but i might've gotten a townread out of this too? i need to put a pin in this and read it again later to be sure, though.

this pedit and the previous post from NL read extremely genuine, so these two might actually suddenly be my two towniest reads? Maybe. [redacted].
Also I'm probably going to have to accept that I'm not going to be in the coalitions because I'm so unreadable on the whole (ftr I get scumread as scum way more often than I get scumread as town, which skitter can semi-attest to, but I'd say this as either alignment so I digress). Which makes this game an interestingly more-uphill battle fmpov. I accept the challenge.

I think I've misconstrued your comments about my rhetoric around Irrelephant11 as an attempt to soft-defend him / soft-shade me. If I'm being entirely honest I do have concerns, but I am definitely coming down on him harder than I normally would. This is a combination of the fact that he's a player with a strong game as both alignments, and someone who is good at earning townreads regardless of alignment. To flip his rhetoric around, I do not want him to be comfortable.

So there is a very strong chance that this is you correctly identifying that I'm blowing my read out of proportion.

pedit: This has been a beautiful moment.

currently willing to bet the game on no lunch/chara being town, so

HEAL: skitter
she seems unconcerned with the fact that shes not in the majority coalition atm and she entered with a self-heal which makes me think she's not concerned with looking eager to be on the coalition right off the bat

like that may seem contradictory but I feel like scum wouldn't want to enter with something that screams "hey pick me" like a self heal and i feel like in the game state we're in right now she would be trying to town tell more aggressively

(granted she could be scum with a widely townread player but eh)

this post makes me townread skitter a lot more than it makes me townread sky

VOTE: skygazer
HURT: gamma
HEAL: no lunch, HEAL: skitter
ironically my coalition is currently what I would say are probably the four hardest-to-read players (still including myself)

[Irrelephant11]

scum have daychat
HURT: charaHURT: no lunch
I forgot I voted Aubrey near the beginning of that post but I'll stick with sky for now
though I wonder if our strategy is that our lynch should only ever be in the coalition? since that'll optimally be where scum is if the coalition fails?

[Irrelephant11]

eh it was probably genuine? I'll come back to chara/nl later I'm now torn

[Irrelephant11]

scum have daychat
HURT: charaHURT: no lunch
I forgot I voted Aubrey near the beginning of that post but I'll stick with sky for now
though I wonder if our strategy is that our lynch should only ever be in the coalition? since that'll optimally be where scum is if the coalition fails?

I think it might be smarter to hunt outside the townbloc first, as finding a scum there narrows the last scum down, which doesn’t work the other way around.

Yeah, disagree, both scum could be in the coalition

Also despite not mentioning me or quoting any of my posts

Irrel removed me from his bloc
Weird? Kinda feels a bit scummy.
VOTE: Irrelephant

Having zero posts from you I found notable is why I removed you from my townbloc
I'll ISO you later, maybe, it's not indicative of a scumread I just don't townread you enough to coalition you. Why is it scummy that I removed you? Do you feel you've been so obvtown I should keep you in my coalition forever?


@chara I thought it was all extremely notable theater if scum, I thought scum didn't have daychat because [redacted], and then when I remembered to re-check for daychat it gave me flashbacks to friemds mafia where RC/geminitwin had such good scum theater on D1 that I never again considered them a possible team; except, it was all planned in scumchat, and I lost town the game in lylo. On the other hand, it did still feel really genuine, and it IS still really notable theater if scum, and it all happened in such real time that you pedited each other multiple times, so I'm waffling. It doesn't help that you were both like "only readable people in the townbloc yes" and you agreed the other is unreadable and now "we are the townbloc yes", is a sorta iffy discrepancy. I really WANT to townread you both but I also am paranoid that it's intentional game-winning theater for scum, especially given how it differs from both of your stated strategies
Otoh, how often does scum come into the thread like "here's the winning strat!" and then abandon it at a moment's notice hmm

[Irrelephant11]

I feel like you removing me from your bloc could be you reacting to me being widely chosen as a member by trying to reduce the consensus on me

I didn't notice you were being widely townread or widely coalition'd. Also, I didn't give a reason, so I don't think anyone was planning on sheeping me on it.

If anything you're the one who seems overly concerned about your status as a coalition candidate

[Irrelephant11]

why should I have had you in my coalition in the first place? I RVS'd you there.
HEAL: chara, no lunch (I've decided neither of you are RC.... for now)

@skitter there's a sort of mild cog-diss with you saying "As scum I'd try to look like I didn't care if I was in the coalition" and then Healing Aubrey for saying "oh I don't want to be in the coalition"
Like do you think only you would think of that or

[Irrelephant11]

that post didn't make me vote sky, quoting that post had little to do with my follow up vote on sky

[Irrelephant11]

221 - yes it makes some sense. I'm just not reading it as

that

much more likely to come from town than scum to deserve getting coalition'd + I've already mentioned some of my hesitance around the Aubrey slot

HEAL: skitter
she seems unconcerned with the fact that shes not in the majority coalition atm and she entered with a self-heal which makes me think she's not concerned with looking eager to be on the coalition right off the bat

like that may seem contradictory but I feel like scum wouldn't want to enter with something that screams "hey pick me" like a self heal and i feel like in the game state we're in right now she would be trying to town tell more aggressively

(granted she could be scum with a widely townread player but eh)

i disagree on the self-heal bit, it's the best heal town could (and really, should) make, since it's one's most confident townread.
i'm aware that before this skitter was only in no lunch's coalition, but a lot of them aren't done being built yet. and i think i'm the only player who's really anti-skitter in any sense, but if i missed where i'm not please point it out, might've missed it.
anyway, given that what do you think scum skitter would be doing here besides what she has been? i think she's been objectively towny.

oh elephant, i wanted a reply to this from you.

I don't know what kind of reply you're looking for here
I agree that self-heal is generally something every player should probably want to do
I agree that nothing has scumpinged me from skitter, and she's played like I expect town!skitter to play
I don't really think she's outside her scumrange and she's said so herself

scum have daychat
HURT: charaHURT: no lunch
I forgot I voted Aubrey near the beginning of that post but I'll stick with sky for now
though I wonder if our strategy is that our lynch should only ever be in the coalition? since that'll optimally be where scum is if the coalition fails?

why does scum having daychat affect these reads?

that convo felt super organic and i don't think that having daychat would really change that really

I answered this in my 206

"oh I don't want to be in the coalition"

Woooooooooah. No. That is not what I said. I said I wanted to build my personal coalition of others without voting for myself because x y z. I never said,

"I don't want to be in the coalition"

If I get put in the top 5 for the coalition at EOD, it's because I got read that way by others and not by slipping in a free-pass on my self. That is essentially what i was saying.

I am aware I am paraphrasing. I am also aware that, if town, that's probably not what you meant for anyone to glean from it. If scum, I think that's exactly what you meant for other's to glean from it, though, and scum!you is what I was discussing in that post (plus I felt att that that was mainly what skitter got from your post)

that post didn't make me vote sky, quoting that post had little to do with my follow up vote on sky

ok, why'd you vote sky?

I don't know what skygazer is doing itt + weird @mod question + concerned about "accidentally sheeping" =/= townread.

[Irrelephant11]

Are you caught up yet

[Irrelephant11]

My 206 explains why I was paranoid after remembering daychat. What do you think of my explanation there?

[Irrelephant11]

Why yes, I am either town or scum. Good job

I don't know you as a player, and for all I know you are literally an RC alt (not that I get that feeling about you, but RC could pull off a you-looking-alt, no offense). I was ready to lock you both as town for what felt like the most genuine thing that would probably happen all game.
And then I thought about the last time I leaned on an extremely genuine moment from D1 of a micro for the rest of the game: I lost because the entire moment was faked. To save you some time, the moment in that game that I'm referring to is the series of posts that these words link to (for context, RC seriously advocates for policy lynching various players more often than anyone else I've seen onsite, and gets a lot of flak for it. Therefore, fmpov, gemini suggesting she would go through with a policy lynch

would

have gotten RC excited in that way, and anyway the rest of it read as very emotionally genuine. Had me fooled).

[Irrelephant11]

Given the speed of his hurt and then redaction, it actually felt pre-planned to me.

this requires the kind of thinking that you're suggesting you find unbelievable, so I find this somewhat unbelievable
To elaborate, "sure it's very likely town, but he could have pre-planned and faked it" is exactly what I thought about the exchange you two had, and the fact that you're able to have that kind of thought about me should show why it's reasonable I had that kind of thought about the two of you.

[Irrelephant11]

why should I have had you in my coalition in the first place? I RVS'd you there.
HEAL: chara, no lunch (I've decided neither of you are RC.... for now)

@skitter there's a sort of mild cog-diss with you saying "As scum I'd try to look like I didn't care if I was in the coalition" and then Healing Aubrey for saying "oh I don't want to be in the coalition"
Like do you think only you would think of that or

And then after this acknowledgment that you probably aren't on an RC!scum level, and a re-heal of both of you, I'm surprised you would say "It still does not present as though he genuinely townreads anyone."

pedit: a lot of the best moments happen in real time, I agree.

[Irrelephant11]

"Far cry"? Hmph.
Is it true that you would find it town-indicative, like Chara does, but for the fact that scum!me might have pre-planned and faked it?

Regardless, I think you are passing over Occam's razor regarding my posting to prove yourself right about your original read on me. I don't think you have spent any time this game considering me a possible member of town, and while I can't make you do so, I'm not sure what response I could give you that would help you un-tunnel me. Consider that if you and chara are both as sure of each other's alignments as you say, one of you has some convincing to do of the other regarding me, so maybe hear him out.

pedit: I don't see myself picking any early fights as scum, except perhaps with someone like Gamma (whom I have seen get mislynched multiple times, and therefore I feel I would be more likely to get townread than him if we argued)

pedit2: Perhaps the weakness of the play should be your indicator, then. I am a much stronger player as scum.
No, I don't see why you are scumreading me atm. I am answering your questions, and explaining why I disagree with many of your points. If I feel you're wrong, should I just be like "mmhmm yep you're town and therefore right" or..?

[Irrelephant11]

??????

I have felt like our interactions have been super earnest and that we're conversing in a really useful back-and-forth way, and have no clue what you mean about my responses, genuinely? Like as either alignment I don't think I'd go into this trying to shut you down, since I want you to townread me either way? I'm actually really confused about the way you're describing the conversation we just had, like it feels like you're describing some other conversation that didn't happen where I was rude and kept telling you "no, dumb, wrong" without any explanations???
Also, rude tbh

My finished games are all on this wiki

[Irrelephant11]

HEAL: skitter
she seems unconcerned with the fact that shes not in the majority coalition atm and she entered with a self-heal which makes me think she's not concerned with looking eager to be on the coalition right off the bat

like that may seem contradictory but I feel like scum wouldn't want to enter with something that screams "hey pick me" like a self heal and i feel like in the game state we're in right now she would be trying to town tell more aggressively

(granted she could be scum with a widely townread player but eh)

this post makes me townread skitter a lot more than it makes me townread sky

I don't get this.

Do you think he is faking this read? Or is this a

"I logically don't agree with this thus you are scum."

Are you asking me if skygazer (who is a "she") is faking this read on skitter? Or are you asking everyone else if I'm faking my read on sky?

If the former, no, I don't think the read is fake, I just think that while it's not a bad reason to townread skitter, it's sort of a weird one for town to think of. It reads to me like scum trying to come up with a reason why she townreads skitter (and I agree with chara's explanation of why it reads that way), and though it might be town coming up with a reason to townread skitter, both of those situations lead to probably!town!skitter, without giving me much information about sky's alignment.

also re: my read on you, what don't you like? I wasn't really townreading much of what you said, and then you had a post I sorta townread, so when I re-read my own post and saw my vote on you I thought "eh, she's had at least a towny moment, skygazer hasn't, gonna vote skygazer". Is there something in there you don't understand or believe? I feel like I'm getting an oddly high amount of attention this game for what are fmpov really very normal play moments...

If I had to pick one of me/skitter/chara/nl/you to say was scum, I'd pick you, and if I had to pick one of the rest of the playerlist, I'd probably pick sky. So there's that.

[Irrelephant11]

Oh wow! Sorry! Yeah that's my bad, I made an assumption based on your username. I only pointed out the pronoun thing you did, though, because I was confused who you were referring to, is all

Hmm... for now, HURT: Irrelephant11

[Irrelephant11]

Can you explain your reasoning for those heals? Like if you have to go can you do a quick summary?

[Irrelephant11]

HEAL: A50 HURT: no lunch
I hurt myself because as I've said I'm willing to accept the challenge of being one of two townies to not be in the coalition, but if a group of four townies I believe in come together and all want me as their fifth, I'll join. This also helps avoid accidentally hammering, or at least accidentally hammering any coalition with me in it

[Irrelephant11]

</3
Hate when that happens
you should edit your profile pic

[Irrelephant11]

I don't believe I need to go into this. I'm happy to talk through where my concerns with her posting lie, and where I find her reactions to my tests and actions to be inadequate.

I would like this

[Irrelephant11]

I don't believe I need to go into this. I'm happy to talk through where my concerns with her posting lie, and where I find her reactions to my tests and actions to be inadequate.

I would like this

Is speed of delivery a major factor?
I would prefer to be in front of a PC, if possible. (possibly another 24 hours)

No that's fine

[Irrelephant11]

ftr I'm 100% sheeping skitter on Almost50
I will heal myself later

I kinda thought lynch and coalition were resolved simultaneously?

NSG is this correct?

[Irrelephant11]

Also I thought the same things as skitter and almost50 about no lunch looking to scumread me, but I feel that way most times I get scumcased, so I didn't fully believe I was reading it correctly till they said it. The buddying of chara and the way no lunch said "have you fallen for each other's lies before" in 347 makes me feel like there's some hints of agenda to no lunch's play, though, even as I still townread some other things they've posted. idk what to do with NL/Aubrey, personally
Trying to imagine the world where some combo of Gamma/Aubrey/Sky is the team confuses me, because while gamma/sky wouldn't be the most shocking scumteam in the world, their play seems sort of iffy (like they don't have much WIM if it's them), and Aubrey was so nonchalant about not being coalition'd. Makes me think I'm either right to be suspect of NL or that scum is playing super well
Is this similar to what A50 was just saying or different? Haha I read his thing and then forgot which names he called out

pedit: sorry A50 I'm gonna ask you to explain that again, I don't understand why it's important to you that I self-heal this second

[Irrelephant11]

mannnnn I feel like I have good reason to townread chara here but I also feel like he is a little too *on my side*
/paranoia

Why is Gamma collecting votes? I'm not sure he deserves them
pedit: Chara have you played with Gamma before?

[Irrelephant11]

Why is Gamma collecting votes? I'm not sure he deserves them

meh nevermind it's just two votes, I'll let those players use their votes how they will
still would like more explanation from both you (chara) and skitter, though

pedit: fine
HEAL: Irrelephant

pedit2: recognize what?

[Irrelephant11]

oh lol I read it as "if you're town, why do you think I wouldn't be able to recognize [something about Gamma]"
I do think you'd be able to recognize it, I guess. I was just expressing how I feel uneasy about how certain you've been for awhile now that I'm town. Fwiw, I don't feel as uneasy based on that response, but if anyone else has noticed you playing in a way to buddy me, I want to be able to talk about that

Regarding your Gamma vote, it seems like it is mostly based on Gamma's treatment of my slot. Given Gamma is a somewhat lynchbait-y player (not always, but sometimes), why is this one issue enough to make him your strongest scumread? I personally read him talking about me as "hasn't thought it all through fully yet"


like 12 pedits, this is to Chara

[Irrelephant11]

Irrel I thought you Scumread me at least a little? Why are you questioning votes on me like that?

You're pretty null. I've scumread you incorrectly before, so I'm trying to balance my "don't love his play" with "well that's how I feel about town!Gamma too, so"

[Irrelephant11]

skitter are you still as confident as you were upon rep in that A50 is town
Do we think chara has any chance to be scum?

[Irrelephant11]

skitter doing her best to shed all those pesky townreads

[Irrelephant11]

don't know what to do about the paranoia. not surprised it exists? just being the most townread player (or one of?) would probably invite it.

I mean yes this is definitely a big part of why, for me anyway. Either we're nearing gamesolve or you're scum or {skitter, A50} is the scumteam fmpov so I'm trying to sort out if the second and third possibilities are at all likely

skitter: is "confidence" all there is to the A50 townread? Someone (you?) said he's bold as scum. Would you bet the game on town!A50 at this point?

pedit: but why Aubrey tho

[Irrelephant11]

oh shucks this explains so much of why I didn't understand A50's actions earlier lol

[Irrelephant11]

Are you hoping to hammer the coalition very soon? Or is that just my impression based on the way you are pushing it very actively?

[Irrelephant11]

Chara can you talk more about this progression please

Spoiler: Chara's progression on Gamma

VOTE: Gamma

also don't like the lack of "hm maybe i'm wrong on elephant" from Gamma. he can't explain the scum motive for the behaviour he found shady, he thought elephant's explanation was adequate, but he's still trusting his gut on it.

i've played with Gamma many times, elephant. and i believe i've explained my issues with Gamma.
also elephant if you're town, why do you think i wouldn't be able to recognize that?

i could have sworn i had a lot of games with Gamma. now i'm trying to find them and failing. pretty sure they exist, it's just a lot of threads and i'm no good at bookkeeping.

I think you’re misreading me because I’ve been lurking off Mafia to do other things (Fire Emblem Heroes), so my effort isn’t really shining through

in that case, do you have any time to put in more effort? right now i'm concerned about you popping in with comments instead of really engaging, and having reads that you haven't put too much thought into.
those could both be as you say, lazier town Gamma, but it's pretty hard for me to tell the difference.

which is why i've been trying to find our games together, because i seem to remember scum Gamma trying hard in games.

pedit: it doesn't really, skitter. Sky wasn't actually the only player not townreading me until very recently in the game, it was mostly a joke.

UNVOTE: Gamma
HURT: Aubrey
HEAL: Gamma

don't know what to do about the paranoia. not surprised it exists? just being the most townread player (or one of?) would probably invite it.
pedit: Almost are you going for the win right now?
let me post!

Chara. skitter, Irrelephant, A50, Aubrey. I could switch you/me with Gamma if needs be, provided that gets a majority.

i want Gamma in.
might be best to switch him with someone who i believe could be scum faking us out. trying to decide who i'm most suspicious of.

[Irrelephant11]

That's all fine and good, but it feels like you are not even providing enough time for scum to show the desperation you expected them to show when the coalitions approached hammer (as they are doing now)
Also am I right in thinking that you strongly townread all of you/me/chara/skitter/Aubrey/gamma enough to include any/all of that set in a coalition? If so, would you go more into why you feel so strongly about the last two in that list?

[Irrelephant11]

i think scum Gamma would be playing this differently.

can you give an example?
Also, what's your read on Aubrey atm?

[Irrelephant11]

That's all fine and good, but it feels like you are not even providing enough time for scum to show the desperation you expected them to show when the coalitions approached hammer (as they are doing now)
Also am I right in thinking that you strongly townread all of you/me/chara/skitter/Aubrey/gamma enough to include any/all of that set in a coalition? If so, would you go more into why you feel so strongly about the last two in that list?

1- Why give scum time to adapt and respond when I feel I can stun them with a swift move?
2- Also, the longer it takes the more likely TOWN will start getting second thoughts. That's not healthy as it will result in everyone hosting suspicion against another (town) slot and we will never get the coalition hammered.
3- I do TR that group, but I believe out of the 6 I TR A50 the most.

1 & 2 - Yeah okay this is pretty much what I thought you'd say... But I was hoping for something less agenda-y. Honestly I get the play and believe town!you would make it but rushing a coalition is just iffy in general and I don't see anyone outside the coalition currently playing like they feel the need to get in it except maybe no lunch
Can you answer my question about aubrey/gamma please?

[Irrelephant11]

Chara. skitter, Irrelephant, A50, Aubrey. I could switch you/me with Gamma if needs be, provided that gets a majority.

i'm feeling a little ???? about chara rn actually
it's probably just paranoia but yeah

This makes me sad
I wanted this feeling to just be me

I don't love how he wants Gamma in the coalition off of gutfeel when he's otherwise been so cautious with healing, and imo it reads like scum trying to bring mislynch-bait into the coalition last-second to make it easier post-coalition-hammer to avoid being lynched
But also that's basically the only agenda ping I'm getting from him and otherwise I did think he was probably town

[Irrelephant11]

Holy shit this is getting bloody.

I'm actually not seeing this? Like there's some arguments but what makes you say this?

@EVERYONE: What does the fact I'm not including X in my candidates to be in coalition tell you about my read on X?

yeah yeah it means you scumread them

Holy shit this is getting bloody.

do you have an opinion on it?

This post for some reason makes me want to check if chara/Aubrey could be the team
And if the answer is no then I think I feel really very good about chara again

You won't see a drive-by shade throw from me. If something crosses my mind, I'll say it, and if something feels poorly explained I'll prod it and make the answerer uncomfortable while I do so.

I don't like how skitter was like "it seems like you want people to look scummy" and you were just like "yes, actually, because that is what town me would do, so"

especially because

you scumread me for it at the beginning of the game (i.e. if getting into arguments and projecting harder scumreads than you actually have is your new playstyle, why didn't you like it when it came from the elephant's trunk?)

Almost: uh. hm. some mental gymnastics here. i would say in the bottom 3?

See? Wasn't too hard to deduce, was it? Now check 579 and see if no lunch's response makes much sense to you.

this was kind an annoying roundabout way to say you think no lunch is being scummy
I kind of agree, but

as scum i'm pretty bad at actually pushing through mislynches, i mostly get by by doing the thing you're describing.
and that's why i understand the paranoia. kind of disappointed that i still have the problem of being overly sensitive to players scumreading me as town, (even more ridiculous here because i'm still being townread!) because while i logically understand it, it still worries me.

In what sense does it worry you?

uh idk? i obviously dont have a baseline to check your play here against

like that is a tactic people use; i have no way of knowing whether or not this is or isn't a thing you'd do as scum or on an alt account

also i think it's kinda subtle, but i've noticed it fairly consistently (you did it with irrel, sky, and now a50)

also idk if it's something you're doing on purpose, and if it is idki if you were like planning/expecting to get called out given that it *is* subtle

+1

bah i've gotten to the point where i'm nearly townreading the whole list again. and i doubt the team is Eek/Sky.
going to try not to post for a bit.

pedit: i could try my hand at explaining town Almost later. maybe?

as for the read on you: i'm not sure. i need to think about it.

I relate so strongly to the first sentence. If MME is scum, who do you think is the lone ranger playing without a partner? If MME is town, what would you expect a scumteam's play to look like here?
Personally I'm looking for scum to intentionally position one in/one out by having one play intentionally much stronger than the other but idk maybe I as scum would try to get both of us in the coalition...

like maybe it's just a rhetorical technique that you use to convince people in general when you try to convince people of things
but your reaction seems to imply that you understand why i view it as scummy and that it's something a little ???? for town to do

+1

uh idk? i obviously dont have a baseline to check your play here against

like that is a tactic people use; i have no way of knowing whether or not this is or isn't a thing you'd do as scum or on an alt account

also i think it's kinda subtle, but i've noticed it fairly consistently (you did it with irrel, sky, and now a50)

also idk if it's something you're doing on purpose, and if it is idki if you were like planning/expecting to get called out given that it *is* subtle

I haven't been trying to be subtle about approaching people as though their actions have negative ramifications and they need to be accountable for them. Applying the converse wording of "treating other players like they are scum until they prove me wrong", I still have not been trying to be subtle.

I don't think any of this describes your early play, making this feel like a lie

Almost: uh. hm. some mental gymnastics here. i would say in the bottom 3?

See? Wasn't too hard to deduce, was it? Now check 579 and see if no lunch's response makes much sense to you.

i'm pretty sure no lunch is asking why you aren't townreading her/finding her recent posts towny. he confirms that later more explicitly.

And why is he asking about Sky specifically? Wouldn't someone be normally more worried about the people I explicitly TR?

My working theory is it's "possible" no lunch is scum with Sky, and I've pointed out he hurting him then healing him soon after. My working theory is further fueled by the fact she asked me whom to take out off her coalition list in order to include me, then asked him (I'm sorry if that's the incorrect pronoun, btw) specifically the same question. The very same guy I asked to be removed, and the one she actually did remove upon my request!!

Then I still think it's also possible that Sky could be scum with Aubrey. In fact, the ONLY partner I could think of if Aubrey is scum would be Sky. Aubrey's the only player TRing Sky enough to include her in his coalition list.

I no longer wish to lead the town, so do as you will. I wanted Aubrey over Gamma because IF the coalition didn't work I would have called him out first, and Gamma would have been my TR in the "other 4" too, so that would have helped me narrow down my lynch pool on both sides.

But you guys know better. We should totally take our time going in loops and have scum spread the paranoia among us to the point we either fail to hammer the coalition, we do it too late and rush a mislynch, or we do it in such a time where enough townies are more sus of other townies we would be mislynching our way into a loss. Good luck with that!

Yikes A50, fatalistic much? This frustration probably comes from town over scum but if the rest of us want a little more time (especially because a slot hasn't shown up) why do you feel it's suddenly autoloss? This town feels pretty strong (like even if we have a scum in the coalition, that's still a bunch of townies playing pretty strongly)

Fuck it.

HEAL: Chara
HEAL: A50
HEAL: Skitter
HEAL: Gamma
HEAL: Aubrey

This is a more comfortable coalition for me right now.

ooh interesting! This is a fun moment
I don't love the way this is meant to shift attention and I think I have seen posts like this starting with "F it" from scum more than town
But it's fun!

Fuck it.

HEAL: Chara
HEAL: A50
HEAL: Skitter
HEAL: Gamma
HEAL: Aubrey

This is a more comfortable coalition for me right now.

With this we have 4 coalitions with a person missing that everyone else has
Mine lacks skitter
Aubrey’s lacks Irrel
A50’s lacks me
Chara’s lacks Aubrey

This is *very* interesting....

Granted I’d my coalition did fail, i’d prob be the first to eat rope.

Townreading this quite a bit, actually, so hmm maybe I'm overparanoid about the Aubrey slot

[Irrelephant11]

I don't love how he wants Gamma in the coalition off of gutfeel when he's otherwise been so cautious with healing, and imo it reads like scum trying to bring mislynch-bait into the coalition last-second to make it easier post-coalition-hammer to avoid being lynched
But also that's basically the only agenda ping I'm getting from him and otherwise I did think he was probably town

the suspicion also kind of makes me sad because i feel as though i'm being judged harder on something you don't like because i've been consistently towny previously. and the thought of what looks like it might turn into a battle to keep myself townread is a little disheartening.
not that i don't understand the suspicion.

i realized that my reasons for scumreading Gamma didn't necessarily have to be scum Gamma, and i like to trust my gut when it tells me "this player is responding to me genuinely". it's why i'm still townreading no lunch.

Chara can you go more into why "not necessarily scum Gamma" and your gut are enough to coalition Gamma?
Alternatively, can you convince me why I should heal Gamma?

also kind of worried skitter is piggybacking off of elephant's paranoia of me. i guess you'd call that counter paranoia.

and skitter unvoted Gamma around the same time i did. i'd assumed she saw the same thing in his towny responses.
why did you unvote Gamma, skitter?

Can you point to which of Gamma's posts you townread (as did skitter, presumably, but I'm looking for you specifically to answer this)?

Holy shit this is getting bloody.

Aubrey can you explain why you said this? I really didn't feel it at the time

[Irrelephant11]

That answers my question, thank you. Can you towncase Chara for me?

[Irrelephant11]

@Aubrey, i'm trying to settle my paranoia on the slot

[Irrelephant11]

HEAL: Aubrey

[Irrelephant11]

I've decided I have good enough reason to townread chara/skitter/A50 and the only way I'm wrong on A50/skitter is if they're both scum and the only way chara is scum is if Aubrey is it's partner and Aubrey is right that if he's the only scum in the coalition we will kill him first and without going in many more circles I'm not sure I'm going to find a better coalition.

Basically I'm aiming for [this is all town & if not we at least have got great odds to hit the scum if I'm wrong] which is a little bit dependent on never lynching me now that I think about it but I'm willing to take that on

[Irrelephant11]

@NSG: vc?

do we wait for MME?

[Irrelephant11]

I mean, okay
We've kinda played the first part of the game without him, which seems rude if nothing else

How do you feel about my coalition?

[Irrelephant11]

right I guess it's his fault
I would just be annoyed if I was IRL busy and came back and a coalition had been picked without me

[Irrelephant11]

the only way chara is scum is if Aubrey is it's partner

how did you get to this conclusion?

After checking into my paranoia of Chara, I decided the two things from the slot I couldn't understand were its flip on its Gamma read and its early strong townread of Aubrey.
You did the same thing with Gamma, and I sorta did too (just w/o swinging all the way to a townread, I did lose my scumread tho), so I decided not to read much into that.
Chara itself has suggested it would be dumb for scum to shade each other, as that makes it harder for both slots to get into the coalition... Chara's waffled a bit on Aubrey, but overall had him higher than I think Aubrey deserves. Aubrey, meanwhile, has never wavered much on Chara being town. This is about what I'd expect for a chara/Aubrey team. I understand everything else Chara has done and think it has played in town-indicative ways overall, so town!Chara is probably right about Aubrey or scum!Chara is probably partners with Aubrey, and if it's the latter we have great odds at hitting scum after the coalition fails. If Chara is just wrong about Aubrey then I still think scum!Aubrey will get caught earlier than later.

I have very similar thought processes regarding you, only replace all "Aubrey"s with "Almost50"s.

[Irrelephant11]

He’s basically saying I’m scum and supporting the coalition even though he has high doubts it’ll fail.

That's not true at all???

[Irrelephant11]

I'm saying I have three pretty-confident townreads, and out of the rest of the playerlist (I have waffly nullreads on you, NL, and Gamma (and obviously I don't have a read on MME)) you're the one who I am {most leaning toward a townread + least worried about avoiding the lynch if scum}. I guess I can see why you might think that that's "Let me get Aubrey in the coalition so I can lynch him" but I'm not saying you're definitely who I would lynch if the coalition fails - I just don't see scum!you endgaming in this playerlist and that's a piece of why I'm comfortable coalitioning you
Do you think I should townread Gamma more than you?

[Irrelephant11]

Yes

[Irrelephant11]

A50 are you just hoping all the paranoia is unwarranted or?
Like how are you reconciling the way everyone approves of this

[Irrelephant11]

The last page made me very sad
Skygazer is very mean, and also probably town

[Irrelephant11]

Gonna go ahead and call my move to include Aubrey over Gamma game-winning
But also it was only possible because I was surrounded by incredible play that narrowed down options super quickly and effectively
Great job everybody this was super fun and the win makes it all the sweeter

Love love love this playerlist