micro 871: mystery box of silver 4 (G O)

[mastina]

FUCK
YES

[mastina]

Oh since I actually finally got into the game I should PROBABLY actually READ it now.

[mastina]

(Basically, time to move very very fast through the game thread!)

[mastina]

VOTE: tris

I move very fast >.>
VOTE: Gemini

Town.

VOTE: apthet Voting town is very anti-town

Town?

Hey
VOTE: Parachutes bc who needs 'em right?

Scum?

Hi everyone!

VOTE: Porkens

Confscum.
(Would link but can't find the relevant post.)

VOTE: apthet

[mastina]

+100000000000000000 town points

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
- CC

You're town, too.

@apthet are you town reading porkens, or was there another reason why you no longer wanted your vote there?

Also, you're town?

[mastina]

{tris, Porkens, Parachutes, LuckyOtter}
{Lost Ghosts, GeminiTwin12, apthet, Chito and Nuko}
I townlean top, null/lean scum bottom.

Let me make it easy for you.
Legitimately.
100%.
The scumteam here is transparently, clear-as-day, every single post makes it clearer, apthet and GeminiTwin12.

This is on multiple levels.

One, literally every single player except for those two (ehhhh okay maybe at this point also Chito/Nuko) have shown themselves to be varying degrees of town. I can tell you why Porkens is town, Parachutes is town, LuckyOtter is town, Lost Ghosts is town, and you are town.

Two, apthet's been revealing herself to be obvscum with literally every single post she makes.
GeminiTwin's not as CLEARLY obvscum, but has posts that are far more likely to come from scum than town.
Chito/Nuko, while not being clearly obvious town to me, have also not so much as a single scum ping--which as far as I'm concerned, is good enough to make them town.

[mastina]

{tris, Porkens, Parachutes, LuckyOtter}
{Lost Ghosts, GeminiTwin12, apthet, Chito and Nuko}
I townlean top, null/lean scum bottom.

Let me make it easy for you.
Legitimately.
100%.
The scumteam here is transparently, clear-as-day, every single post makes it clearer, apthet and GeminiTwin12.

This is on multiple levels.

One, literally every single player except for those two (ehhhh okay maybe at this point also Chito/Nuko) have shown themselves to be varying degrees of town. I can tell you why Porkens is town, Parachutes is town, LuckyOtter is town, Lost Ghosts is town, and you are town.

Two, apthet's been revealing herself to be obvscum with literally every single post she makes.
GeminiTwin's not as CLEARLY obvscum, but has posts that are far more likely to come from scum than town.
Chito/Nuko, while not being clearly obvious town to me, have also not so much as a single scum ping--which as far as I'm concerned, is good enough to make them town.

Pagetopping this.

[mastina]

@apthet - Yeah, I feel like you're reaching here. In regards to mainly the latter of #126

Yeah these interactions?

Scum-scum distancing.

[mastina]

{tris}
{LuckyOtter, Porkens}
{Everyone else}
Will take the time to think more about the rest tomorrow, also want to discuss some things with Chito
-Nuko

Hey guys.
Having failed to read MBoS 2/3 because I wasn't in them.

I don't know how they went exactly, but.

Can we legitimately actually make this game like the first one? Where we actually genuinely have a solid townbloc and have correctly PoEd as a result the scumteam? (Preferably without the mislynches tho.)

Because I just.

Legitimately.

Think the game's won.

As long as you don't cave in to paranoia.

I actually DO think this game's just that easy.
And that we really DO have the scumteam, and really DO have the town pegged correctly as town.

[mastina]

>

Oh since I actually finally got into the game I should PROBABLY actually READ it now.

>Starts reading nomnom's entrance/pushes with the reactions to it.
>

[mastina]

Maybe we should quicklynch porkens.

VOTE: nom

VOTE: nomnomnom
You know you're in trouble when I use your full name.

VOTE: cheekyteeky

Anyway I'll allow Gemini to "calmly take her time getting her footing in this game".
VOTE: Cheeky

VOTE: cheekyteeky

[mastina]

Hey so like.
Remember how in the original game.

The town had me and sheep dead to rights even early-on.

And we almost got lynched, repeatedly.

And yet we didn't.

And in the distraction.

Multiple town players started suspecting each other because they caved in to the paranoia and second-guessed themselves when their original assessment had been right?

Yeah well.

That's what I'm reading right now.

Hopefully you can do what that town did, too, and come back to realize you were originally right.

[mastina]

apthet (4):

LuckyOtter, nomnomnom, CheekyTeeky, Porkens

I got my hopes up that I had unintentionally hammered apthet.

So so very got my hopes up.

And yet...

VOTE: unvote

VOTE: Nom

RIP.

[mastina]

@mastina Why were you so excited to join this game, in particular?

Because the original MBoS was one of my favorite games of all time to ever be in even though I lost--I was PROUD to have lost because the game was just that amazingly awesome.

I didn't know MBoS2 was a thing until it had already begun--at which point I tried repeatedly, every single time, to get in as a replacement, only to be beaten to the punch each. and every. single. time.

I didn't know MBoS3 was a thing until it was already over--meaning I completely missed it altogether.

I didn't know MBoS4 was a thing until it had already began--but I missed my chance on the first replacement and immediately jumped in when I saw the next one.

Just because I missed two of the games doesn't mean I did so willingly; I would have GLADLY played them if I had known they existed! I wanted to, am sad I didn't, and each and every failure to get into the game was frustrating and yet now I finally FINALLY get back in. Fuck yes I'm excited!

[mastina]

@mastina are you legitimately going to base your reads on the first few pages and ignore everything in between? Because it sure does seem like it

I mean I can reference later content as being town/scum if you'd prefer, but all it does is reinforce the existing reads.

CheekyTeeky is painfully town, you're painfully town, Porkens is painfully town, Parachutes and LuckyOtter are pretty clearly (but not painfully) town, Chito/Nuko aren't scum even if they're not as town as I'd prefer, every single apthet post is a scumclaim, and Gemini's posts are scum as fuck and the L-1 wagon falling apart was dumb town being dumb by thinking their various thoughts on it; scum would hammer it, scum must be involved in it, etc. when it was just town voting scum.

The reads were established early on, but the content later didn't diminish that--it supported, reinforced, strengthened, and further built on that early read.

[mastina]

Yeah, 100% no.If you're honestly banking our town win on you being right on me...we're in trouble.

alarm bells rising again
god fucking damn it

Hey, your alarm bells ring for Gemini and you had apthet as a scumread so maybe you can sheep me when I say we should just lynch apthet because we legitimately just have the game won?

Almost everyone has apthet as a scumread.
Almost everyone has or had Gemini as a scumread.

Those reads aren't wrong.

We can get a perfect town win here as long as not caving in to stupid paranoia about "it couldn't possibly be that easy, right?".
But it legitimately genuinely just is.

[mastina]

@Mastina Did your reads change at all between when you read and posted about 104 and the end of the thread?

Nope! Nothing in that content changed the reads; all I saw was reason for my existing reads to be reinforced.

I suppose you could say some strengths of my townreads changed. I think I originally said that LuckyOtter was in the top-town bracket and now he's not in the top-town bracket, as an example...but that wasn't my townread on him getting weaker, so much as my townreads on nom/Cheeky/Porkens

surpassing

him as a townread. Those three townreads grew in strength from already-strong to ridiculously-broken-strong, making it appear that other townreads got weaker when they didn't, they just remained static whereas others grew.

But for all intents and purposes, that's nitpicky and I didn't have any REAL read-shifting.

Because I legit just think.

That the game is what it appears to be.
That easy, that apparent, that obvious, that on lock.

[mastina]

Alternatively, could you ELI5 why I'm so wrong about nom's alignment?

Where would I begin? Nom replaced Lost Ghosts. 28 was an incredibly natural entrance into the game--fluid and organic, with no trace of being scum that are stilted. 145 felt genuine scumhunting matching the type of thought I'd expect ClearlyClarity to have as town. I also have a VERY good idea of what 147 was referring to, which would make me EVEN FURTHER inclined to trust that ClearlyClarity was town, because it's not something I'd expect her to reference if she were scum.

Then there's how this is pretty much just nom's towngame. Compare: this is nom as scum.
This is nom as town.

The difference between the two is night and day, and this is the latter not the former.

There's also where nom is pushing; nom's pushes have been on players that, with the exception of apthet, go against the grain of others. nom as scum kinda went with the flow by and large and avoided confrontration, whereas nom as town lives in those "fuck what the town says, I'm doing my own thing" moments. The reasons, the logic, the everything, comes from a town nom here.

The slot can't get any more town than it has already.

[mastina]

Also, for what it's worth:
Can't speak for MBoS 2/3, but in the original MBoS, the scumteam was informed that everyone was a VT--making Gemini claiming VT not be something I see as clearing. If the scum know that the game lacks PRs, then they have a fair idea of what (not) to claim.

[mastina]

I also have a VERY good idea of what 147 was referring to, which would make me EVEN FURTHER inclined to trust that ClearlyClarity was town, because it's not something I'd expect her to reference if she were scum.

Can you speak to it, or is that still disallowed?

It's disallowed.

[mastina]

Yikes. You haven't read nom's first scum game, have you?
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=79138

Admittedly it's a Normal that I read less than I read most Normals, I'll confess. (I pretty much read every single Normal but some Normals I kinda neglect. Don't have time to read literally all of every game.)
On a look tho--while nom's play in that game is closer to nom's mason play game, it is still

different

in a way that is inherently different from this game.

If I had to put a word to it, it'd actually be "friendliness".
nom as scum consistently seems friendly; nom as town does not.
And this nom of this game doesn't seem friendly. Thus, town.

[mastina]

I disagree with you about 145 (spoiled for easy reference). 86 was saying nothing, but that wasn't a reason to scum read tris. In 82 tris had a legitimate reason to say that porkens had reasons - she had been scum read by otter for asking about porkens reasons. Porkens later stated reasons, and tris was saying this to make the argument to luckyotter that her question was legitimate, resulted in info (small, but good for how early in the game it was). And 78 was in no way a defense of cheekyteeky (plus, as you and I both know, legit scum reads do happen page 1.)

So all in all, I think it was clarity's post that showed a lack of critical thinking about the thread, and I don't understand why you town read it?

To put it simply--one does not need to have a right read for the read to be one which I think is well-reasoned. I DO see critical thought put in, ESPECIALLY given what ClearlyClarity's experience with tris is. With an understanding of their history, the read made perfect sense as being a thought she would have about tris.

[mastina]

Mastina I'm going to BoP you on the ap lynch. If it flips town or vem flips town I'm going to tinfoil you/otter team.

Normally.
I'd point out that I'm not that competent a town player and thus BoP arguments rarely turn out well because I'm a shitty scumhunter.
Normally, I'd point that out and fight against the point.
Normally.

But.
Ya know what?
Fuck it.

I'm confident enough in the apthet-Gemini solve that absolutely, yes? You've got yourself a fucking deal.
In fact.
For emphasis.

DEAL!

[mastina]

I would expect town (because this is how I feel) to get that endorphin rush of having a replacement come in and basically confirm your reads.

To the contrary! Excitement would've made me feel the side-eye.

Paranoia

on the other hand, is insanely town.

Town who have struggled to push their reads all game

can

, when someone comes in and suddenly is pushing those same reads, feel a rush of relief...but far, far, far, FAR more likely? They're gonna be skeeved out at the buddying/sheeping going on because they've gone the whole game without being followed and now suddenly someone is? The natural inclination for most town players is immediate suspicion and paranoia, doubting their previous pushes' legitimacy, with hesitance because suddenly, this idea which was theirs is no longer theirs alone.

That's reason for nom to be town, not scum.

[mastina]

This isn't an argument that meta should be used to scum read her; it's an argument that meta shouldn't be used here to town read her.

Okay, so fuck meta then. Let's read nom on just this game's merits:

Where am I wrong?

Where you're wrong is that nom's posts here transparently show a strong town mindset--reads which are nom's own, given extensive reasoning; strong pushes made with conviction, and then when presented with situations that invoke an emotional response, immediately feeling paranoia. Instead of doubling down on now having an ally, nom went out of their way to avoid having one.

As scum, you can't win the game by yourself; you need town players to go with you, and nom has avoided doing so.

[mastina]

@Mastina, what are your thoughts on Parachutes' towncase on ap in 459?

What towncase?

Nothing in there makes apthet even remotely town.

Everything he's saying is indicative of town is indicative of scum; it's literally fucking backwards.

[mastina]

the scumteam was informed that everyone was a VT--making Gemini claiming VT not be something I see as clearing. If the scum know that the game lacks PRs, then they have a fair idea of what (not) to claim

Wait a second. Are you really reading this game? You've missed a logical scumclaim here if you really believe this.

I fail to see how?

In the first MBoS game, the scum knew that every single town player was a VT.
I don't know what the scum knew in MBoS 2/3 because I wasn't in those games, but given my experience from the first game, I can see the scum having knowledge of what roles are(n't) in the game, e.g. knowing that every player's a VT (as was the case in the first game). It need not be that information specifically; they could instead know that, say, there's only ONE PR in the game, or even know what that PR is specifically, or if the game really does have seven VTs know that once more, but my point remains regardless of what role composition this game is; scum have, in the previous MBoS game, known information about the composition of the town's roles--so it is fairly probable that something similar would exist here...
...And because they likely have a fair idea of what's in the game...
...They also have, by proxy, a fair idea of what (not) to claim.

Where's the flaw in that logic?

[mastina]

Spoiler: My Role PM first game

Welcome to micro 840 ! You are a

mafia goon

. You may talk to your partner at any time in here, and each night either you or your partner may use a factional nightkill.

HOWEVER!!!! you have a couple responsibilities outside of this. . . . check out your hideout . . .

You win when you control half the vote during a day phase, or when nothing can prevent this.

Please confirm by telling me what the bolded red text says or by posting in your factional thread.

Subject: micro 840: Wolfs (complete.)

oh . . mastina and shmeep . . . HELLO! you both received the same role PM
you have two decisions to make during the game.
at the end of day one, i will send this PM to someone:

Spoiler:

the mafia have chosen . . . You!!!! you are now a

The Sticky Silver Angel - Bulletproof Night 1 and 2 Tracker!

During the first and second nights of the game, you may investigate a player to learn who they have visited last night, if anybody. No killing action can be hidden from you this way (that is, no role that can kill is a ninja). You cannot be killed at night, and at the dawn of day 3 I will confirm you as town.

this change is effective immediately - you can take an action night 1.

you have until that time to decide who i will send this to (i will take whichever was the last directive). if the day ends before you make this decision, it will be randomized (you will be notified of the result.)

at the end of day 2, you can choose someone to receive one of these two PMs:

Spoiler:

you found a gun in the mud outside your house. might take a minute to get the gunk out . .

you are now a

night 3 vigilante!

on the third night of the game, you may choose someone to kill.

you found a gun in the mud outside your house. it has evil energies radiating from it . . . . oh no. . . .

you are now a

night 6 vigilante!

on the sixth night of the game, you may choose someone to kill.

if i do not receive a choice, neither will be given.
you also know that the person who is lynched day 1 is given the choice of a player to bestow this role:

Spoiler:

You have realized your true identity . . . . you are

Swampy Nell, the Night 2 Invéstigatoire!

During the second night of the game, you may investigate a player to learn whether they are

innocent

or

guilty

. Anybody that looks

innocent

will be town, but

guilty

does not necessarily mean mafia.

the three events i have described here constitute all of the roles in this game; every townie is vanilla at present.
.
each night, you may ask me for a flavor name for a given role description. you may discuss night actions & role assignment choices here at any time

This is what schadd did the first game for the scum.
schadd need not do the same "seven VTs" trick for the idea to be kept similar. "You know that the town has role X, but every other player is currently a VT", for instance; it achieves the exact same effect, except in this setup the town would have role X.

My point wasn't specifically "scum know the game has seven VTs and thus know to claim one"; my point was "scum probably have knowledge of the composition of town's roles (or lack thereof) and thus know what (not) to claim".

And I don't see anything which gives any contradiction to that?

[mastina]

Her only way out now is to scumread me which is going to be a very long and sucky 1v1.

Sorry no interest in voting town.

Game's still won because scum are still apthet and Gemini.

[mastina]

as she's directly contradicting her read and the game she's pretending to read.

Fuck that shit.
If I were pretending to read this game I'd have gotten back, what, a solid hour of my life that I would have preferred to spend elsewhere doing other things?

I read the game; there's no contradiction and you're seeing something which simply isn't there.

[mastina]

She's not paying attention to the game but pretending to.

1: If you're softing a PR? I legitimately didn't notice it. So thanks for outing yourself for nothing because nobody as far as I can tell noticed previously, including me.
2: But that changes nothing because I did not say "a PR claim = scum this game". You think I did but I fucking didn't.
I said exactly what I meant: scum in the first game knew it was seven VTs. So IF (I INCLUDED THE FUCKING WORD IF BECAUSE IT WAS A HYPOTHETICAL) they knew that there were seven VTs (which was a DIRECT COMPARISON TO THE FIRST GAME), they'd know what (not) to claim, was what I was saying.
And that remains true because the statement remains regardless.
If scum knew there were seven VTs, then they would know what (not) to claim.
If scum knew that there were six VTs and one PR, then they would know what (not) to claim.
If scum knew what the specific PR in the game was, then they would know what (not) to claim.

I used the first example because the first example was DIRECTLY RELEVANT TO MY MBoS EXPERIENCE which I was DIRECTLY REFERENCING, but I just as easily could have used the second or third examples. Or even a fourth. "If scum knew that the game had two PRs, they would know what (not) to claim".
Or even a fifth. "If scum knew that the town had powers X and Y, they would know what (not) to claim".
Or probably even more combinations I'm not thinking of, because I can't think of them all nor should I be expected to when listing a fucking hypothesis about hypothetical scum knowledge about what the setup is. Not on D1 with no claims and no knowledge of games 2/3 in the series, at least.

[mastina]

You're really going to tell me that that's not a valid and fair thought?

It is a thought which can and did come from town, but in this case is neither valid nor fair.

What I said was very fucking clear; CheekyTeeky's seeing something which simply put

isn't. there.

And had she fucking waited for me to come in, I could have clarified this.

She could have asked one simple question and left it at that question, waiting for me to answer it and I'd have told her all of what I just fucking said now.

And we'd have been saved from all of this shit.

You supporting her is further evidence for why you're scum though.

[mastina]

It means mastina is cherrypicking meta to suit her agenda.

I mean.
Not gonna lie here.
I do that regardless of alignment but especially as town. (Yes, I cherrypick meta more as town because as town I tunnel worse and cherrypicking meta is an inherent part of my tunnels. When I do it as scum it's faking my town meta.)
So saying I cherrypick meta to suit my argument's not wrong; I do it all the time and you could even say that a significant portion of my nom defense could be called precisely that. (Ehhhh debatable but you

could

and I wouldn't exactly feel like fighting that assessment.)

But

in the area you think I did

, no I fucking didn't. Because you read something which

I didn't actually say

as existing when it doesn't.

[mastina]

She implied possibilities where scum could have information because of a previous edition where that's what happened, that doesn't mean that all these games have informed scums.

This, but more in the sense of "I'd expect scum to know facts about the setup that give them an edge on what (not) to claim".
That doesn't mean there can't be town who know information about the setup.
That doesn't mean there can't be a PR in the game.
That means exactly what it fucking says it means; that in my previous experience scum knew what the setup was and that if something similar were in this game, then they'd have the same ability to know what (not) to claim.

[mastina]

Just back up and let me suss this out with mastina

You're a fucking moron.

You know what sussing this out would've been?

Asking one fucking question clarifying this.

If you thought I was saying what you fucking thought I said, find a way to confirm that's what I meant. Find a way to ask me about it and see what I'd have said.

One question was all you'd have needed.

"So, you think that this game's got seven VTs?"
"Are you telling me you think that only scum would know what roles are in the game?" (Ehhh probably not this one as it gives away your meaning too much, but something along those lines could feasibly be done without giving your status away.)
One question.

That's all you'd have fucking needed.

And then, BAM.

I clarify.
That, no, I mean, "Well IF the game's got seven VTs, then YES I would expect the scum to know that, yes. If the game instead had six VTs, I'd expect the scum to know that."
And then.
BAM.
Issue resolved. You suss me out and get a satisfactory answer right then and there.

Without this fucking mess.

Or if that answer wasn't satisfactory?
Ask a second follow-through question to get me to further clarify.
And eventually the results become obvious in what I mean and what I mean not being what you fucking originally thought I was saying.

So I reiterate.

You're a fucking moron.

[mastina]

472 - Using rvs/joke votes to determine alignment. Saying I'm scum? For a joke vote.

Gemini's never seen me in action before so wouldn't know this but others do; just because the post I quote is from the RVS does not inherently mean the read is from the RVS--in this case, it happens to be from the RVS, but that's because RVS content isn't worthless; you can legitimately and genuinely get good content out of it.

474 - using the terms "clear as day" "transparent" without showing examples

This is mostly because I had other shit to be doing rather than catching up in this game and didn't feel like power-efforting.

I can go.

Post by fucking post.

For why each and every single player in this game is town.

I can tell you why I scumread each. and every. single. post. I scumread. And why I thought each. and every. single. post. was further indication the players I'm townreading are town. I can also run you through why the Chito/Nuko's posts were more neutral/null rather than being town.

I can do all of that.

But that takes an incredible amount of time and effort.

Each post is a paragraph or two--that's a solid 20ish for page one alone and ~25 paragraphs for each page after.

I can do that.

But the amount of time and effort to do it is just...it's a matter of last resort, not first resort. I'll do it if I've got no choice other than doing it to prevent a mislynch and get the scum lynch but I'd just REALLY prefer not to put THAT amount of time and effort in--ESPECIALLY when by all rights, this game should be fucking won.

I'm not alone in having reached the solve; most players have had it or close to it at numerous different points. I'm not alone in having seen the town players as town; most players have had a good idea of why they are town for the vast majority of the game, only later having stupidly caved in to paranoia.

I shouldn't fucking NEED to explain why you're scum because the town already reached the conclusion you were before I was even in the game; they just stupidly gave up on it after caving in to the paranoia when they fucking HAD it.

[mastina]

I like 21, 23 and 38, showing the early advancement of the game starting with a townread which also contributed to my early townread on Porkens.

Those posts are what helped to solidify the scumread. apthet was trying to be town, super-serious, during the time period where the town was being fairly whimsical and lighthearted.

apthet's entrance into the game was itself serious in 10; the unvote was further seriousness with a tone contrasting that of literally everyone else on the page. Everyone else had an air of being joking with banter. Porkens's entrance jived with tris's entrance; tris's continued posting jived with Porkens, LuckyOtter's entrance jived with Porkens's entrance, there was a bunch of whimsy and fun involved in that. That's not to say that these players weren't making any efforts to game solve; I'm sure their posts were at the VERY least semi-serious in that their reasons were "as good as RVS read reasonings can be".

But there was a certain lightheartedness to most of what they did. CheekyTeeky did similar with the direct reference to moving fast, a joke based off of schadd's rules. (And yes as you can tell by my own entrance I did in fact read those.) I also thought that CheekyTeeky picked up on the same thing that I did RE: Gemini (in that Gemini's RVS entrance felt out of place compared to the others in not having interacted with them), but apthet was just so...SERIOUS.

38, in contrast, is actually RIDICULOUSLY empty. apthet's entrance was super-serious, and yet apthet has nothing to say further? If apthet were joking around, I'd understand the fairly fluff-filled answer, but 38 contrasts with her earlier posts; 38 shows a lack of commitment to scumhunting, whereas her earlier page one posts looked like they were forcing scumhunting artificially.

it's of note that the sorting on Gemini wasn't followed up, despite saying that she voted Gemini to sort him.

That would be one of the reasons why I think they're the scumteam, yes!

[mastina]

May I know when a VT claim is ever clearing?

Ehhh I can see it in special circumstances being clearing when there's good reason to suspect scum wouldn't claim VT beyond just "I don't think they would"; actual solid reasons with strong justification backing why the VT claim is disproportionately likely to come from town.

My post was mostly my way of saying that I don't think said circumstances exist in this game, that there's no special circumstances behind Gemini's VT claim that make it inherently clearing to her, that it's something scum would likely know was the claim to make.

[mastina]

Hi everyone!

VOTE: Porkens

Confscum.
(Would link but can't find the relevant post.)
VOTE: apthet

Is this the "Hey guys!" tell?

The "hey guys!" tell was the joke reason for the confscum reading, yes--if I were around in the RVS, I'd call apthet scum for "hey guys", and then leave it at that not elaborating on it further in spite of my reasoning clearly being a joke (because I don't believe in the hey guys tell).

...But as you can tell.

I had an actual SERIOUS reason for thinking apthet was scum from that entrance, yes.

[mastina]

It was a joke. Parachutes, I said who needs em. You actually do when you're jumping out of a plane. I was trying to be funny. Goodness fucking gracious.

I recognize that which was why the entrance was only scum? and not outright scum.

I still consider the lack of interaction to be more likely to come from scum than town.

Mastina And Nom., are you so dead set sure that I'm scum so much to the point to where you won't even consider that you're incorrect on me? That you won't even discuss other possibilities?

Give me a viable alternative and I'll hear you out, but from where I stand, not exactly promising in terms of said alternatives.

[mastina]

I don't understand in what world it's ok to call people morons?

In the world where they are being morons?
In what world is it NOT?
Literally serious question.
If someone's being a fucking moron.
You call them a fucking moron.
Because they are being a fucking moron.
So you call them out on their stupidity.

maybe you should ask clarifying questions, fucking moron, because we seem to be talking past each other.

Don't see how.
You said that I should have you as confscum off of my comment.
If what I said was "only scum will know information about the game" and you are a town player with information about the game, then that comment might make sense, but that's not what I said. And if it's not what you are, then I don't see why you'd think I'd think you were confscum in the first place???

Like.

You thought I said something I didn't, but if I had said that thing which I didn't, to you that would make me see you as confscum.
That's what you said; you said I should see you as confscum, when you thought I said something I didn't actually say.

What's there to be confused about?
What's there to be clarified? Or rather--what's there which SHOULD be clarified? Don't see anything which would be pro-town to have further clarified on your end for what you meant. On my end explaining what I meant with clarity? Yeah that had purpose, but I don't see any pro-town reason to push you further on the subject.

You wanted toxic? You got it and it can get so much worse so make a decision about how ugly you want this game to be

Honestly to your post I'd be tempted to go challenge accepted because you're literally challenging me and I have trouble declining challenges even ones which're toxic in nature and incredibly anti-town.

But I've frankly got better things to do, so sorry. This is as much elevation as you're getting.

and watch what you say to people trying to have fun playing a game.

Pot, kettle, black?

I am having a TON of fun this game. I was immensely excited to finally get into the game and that excitement hasn't been diminished by your stupid outburst. It's caused exasperation, annoyance, and a little frustration, but hasn't taken away from the fun/excitement.

There's no need to personally attack people

In what world is calling a person who is being a fucking moron, a fucking moron, a personal attack?
I am calling them what they fucking are.
Would you instead prefer me to call you stupid?
How about me calling you an idiot?
How about me calling you dumb?

I mean there's some terms not to use (*coughrwordcough*), sure, yeah, but which synonym I use beyond avoiding those ones doesn't really change the fucking message. You were being a fucking moron.
You were being a fucking idiot.
You were being fucking stupid.
You were being fucking dumb.

Pick and choose your term of choice, but you were being it so that's exactly what I called you. I called you what you were. If you take offense to that, then sorry, but frankly you're playing the wrong game because literally nobody takes offense to being called a fucking moron in a game where being a fucking moron is basically something that happens to everyone in every single towngame. The default is for towns to be dumb; the exception is when they're smart.

[mastina]

@Nom, @Mastina, anyone else doing it, calling people stupid for not agreeing with you, however obvious you think your points are, is at best unhelpful and at worst making me suspect you're just trying to rile people up to cloud their judgment and/or cause a distraction.

I'm not calling Cheeky stupid for disagreeing with me.

I'm calling Cheeky stupid for, 1: not having gotten my point, 2: instead of asking a simple question to clarify my point, going off and calling the point a scumslip, and then 3: furthering the stupidity, basically softclaiming a PR when she had previously been under the radar, when 4: SHE HERSELF RECOGNIZED THAT SHE NEEDED TO BE SUSSING ME OUT. So she jumped the gun.

That's the definition of fucking stupid so no fucking shit I'm going to call her out on being an idiot? She was being a fucking moron, so I am going to call her a fucking moron.
There's nothing offensive about the words 'dumb', 'stupid', 'idiot', or 'moron'.
I call myself dumb/stupid/an idiot/a moron all the time; I call myself those terms ridiculously often in fact. If I call myself those terms, damn fucking straight yeah I'll be perfectly willing to call others by those terms? Because they aren't offensive; they are

descriptive

. If someone's being fucking stupid. You call them fucking stupid. And what CheekyTeeky did was certifiably stupid.

[mastina]

@Mastina, what are your thoughts on Parachutes' towncase on ap in 459?

What towncase?

Nothing in there makes apthet even remotely town.

Everything he's saying is indicative of town is indicative of scum

; it's literally fucking backwards.

So will you please explain why his points are backwards?

[mastina]

So that was fluff all along then?

No?
There was an actual game conversation about Gemini maybe being cleared for having claimed VT; my comment was in direct reference to that conversation having occurred.

[mastina]

With the current information that I'm working with... I don't know. I'll make a real post at some point in the near future maybe. If I had any solid scumreads I'd be focusing there. I might get enough comfortable townreads at some point where the remaining pool is really narrow. Like I'm a lot more comfortable with Cheeky as well. mastina seems town and that's ridiculously annoying. I think the people I don't have reasons to townread are both hydras and maybe Otter, who I'm more ??? on.

Case and point for why apthet's scum.

I can think of no less than three reasons why this is a scum post.

[mastina]

You were being a fucking moron.
You were being a fucking idiot.
You were being fucking stupid.
You were being fucking dumb.

please stop

There's nothing offensive about the words 'dumb', 'stupid', 'idiot', or 'moron'.
I call myself dumb/stupid/an idiot/a moron all the time; I call myself those terms ridiculously often in fact. If I call myself those terms, damn fucking straight yeah I'll be perfectly willing to call others by those terms? Because they aren't offensive; they are

descriptive

. If someone's being fucking stupid. You call them fucking stupid. And what CheekyTeeky did was certifiably stupid.

[mastina]

Like.
When I am being fucking stupid--I'll call myself fucking stupid.
And if I don't, I fucking expect others to call me fucking stupid.
Because it's a descriptor.

I can use any non-banned synonym to achieve the same result.
When I am being a fucking moron (same thing as being fucking stupid, just different word)--I'll call myself a fucking moron.
And if I don't, I fucking expect others to call me a fucking moron.
Because it's a descriptor.

When I am being a fucking idiot--I'll call myself a fucking idiot.
And if I don't, I fucking expect others to call me a fucking idiot.
Because it's a descriptor.

When I am being fucking dumb, I'll call myself dumb.
And if I don't, I fucking expect others to call me dumb.
Because it's a descriptor.

"I'm a moron"
"I'm an idiot"
"I'm dumb"
"I'm stupid".
I use those terms to describe myself all the time because I am a fucking dumb stupid idiot moron. I might be insulting myself, but I'm mostly describing myself.
And when I call someone else those terms--I am describing what they're doing/thinking.

Those words aren't offensive.
There are words that are, the r-word among them, but dumb, idiot, stupid, moron, are all terms to describe when someone is being dumb/an idiot/stupid/a moron.
Those four words are literally without any other descriptor.
How would you describe someone as dumb without using the word dumb? You'd use idiot/stupid/moron, one or more of them.
How would you describe someone as a moron without using the word moron? You'd use dumb/idiot/stupid, one or more of them.
How would you describe someone as an idiot without using the word idiot? You'd use dumb/moron/stupid, one or more of them.
How would you describe someone as stupid without using the word stupid? You'd use dumb/moron/idiot, one or more of them.
They are self-contained words; one means the other means the other means the other, but the meaning behind them is the same; a person who is being a moron is someone who is doing things that are stupid/idiotic/dumb. A person who is being stupid is someone who is doing things that are dumb/idiotic/moronic. And so on and so forth. Because the words are descriptive.

[mastina]

Like.
The words aren't calling someone of lesser intelligence.
They are saying that someone is doing something unintelligent.
They are describing what that person is doing/has done/planning on doing--"a dumb idea", "a dumb plan", "a dumb post", "a dumb thought".
Substitute dumb for stupid, same results; substitute stupid for idiotic, same results; substitute idiotic for moronic, same results.

The words are calling into question a person's actions/thoughts/etc., not the person making them.

[mastina]

Like.
Search how often towns are called dumb on mafiascum.
It's literally almost every game.
Should the town players be insulted that they were called dumb?

If not dumb, they were called stupid.
Again, in literally almost every single game.
Should the town players be insulted that they were called stupid? (Especially if they lost an easily-winnable game?)

If not dumb, they were called idiotic.
Again, in literally almost every single game.
Should the town players be insulted that they were called idiotic, especially if losing a winnable game?

If not idiotic, they were called moronic.
Again, in literally almost every single game.
Should the town players be insulted that they were called moronic?

I've called people dumb/stupid/idiot/moron in literally almost every game I've played--and it's never been a problem before.
I've seen others call people dumb/stupid/idiot/moron in literally almost every game I've played--and it's never been a problem before.
I've seen people call entire towns dumb/stupid/idiotic/moronic in a MUTITUDE of games, as a player, as a spectator, as a reviewer, as a moderator--and it's never been a problem before.

Because each and every time, people took the terms for what they are: descriptors, not insults.

Take my word for it, I'd use a whole different set of terms if I was aiming to actually insult anyone rather than just describe their actions.

[mastina]

Fuck, CheekyTeeky's played with me before in games where I've used those terms; why are they offensive to her this game when in those prior games they weren't?

[mastina]

Spell it out to me like I'm a fucking moron, please.

Sure, can do, but not right now; it'd take more time/energy than I have available at the moment.
Once I can, tho, I will.

[mastina]

But I don't think it's nearly as likely as, say, an ap + gemini team. Until most recently I've been leaning toward an ap+C&N team (if C&N was shading ap but still voting you, I was going to keep suspecting this, but if C&N is actually legit going to vote toward ap then the pairing is unlikely).

I mean.
If Gemini legit truly is town (I don't think she is, but I'm not a scumhunting god so it IS possible I'm wrong even though I think I'm right), then Chito/Nuko's literally the only realistically possible alternative, but that's a bridge to cross only if we ever reach it; I wouldn't consider a lynch on them until we have a townflip first.

Basically, sure, revisit them if I'm shown wrong, but until such a time, there's better options.

[mastina]

VOTE: nomnomnom

That would be a bad idea because nom has the tracker result to give us.

Basically, nom and I were selected by the scum to be trackers; one of us would randomly be selected to have the track result. We both decided to track LuckyOtter, but I don't have the result; nom was the one who randomly received it.

[mastina]

Also I do owe you a mastina lynch but again. Waiting on nom's result.

[mastina]

I'M PROBABLY ABOUT TO SPEND TIME WITH MY GIRLFRIEND AND RIGHT NOW AM INCREDIBLY BUSY AND I DON'T THINK I CAN POST CONTENT TONIGHT AND MAY NOT BE ABLE TO FOR A WHILE BECAUSE I'M DOING LIKE TEN DIFFERENT THINGS A DAY RIGHT NOW AND I WILL BE AROUND WHEN I AM ABLE TO AND I PRAY TO GOD THAT THE MOD DOESN'T HAVE PROD-DODGE RULES BECAUSE I REALLY DON'T THINK I CAN MAKE CONTENT NOW BUT I SWEAR TO GOD I CAN MAKE GOOD CONTENT ONCE I AM NO LONGER SO BUSY; I SHOULD PROBABLY SET V/LA EVEN THOUGH TECHNICALLY SPEAKING I AM NEITHER ON VACATION NOR LIMITED ACCESS (well, from a certain point of view, I AM on vacation given shutdown week at work but that vacation should've increased my access not decreased and yet here I am)

[mastina]

So Mastina what's your take on nom?

My take on nom is that nom and I are both town who had similar reads and scum expected us to track Gemini because we both had Gemini as one of our strongest scumreads--my take is thus not only that nom is town, but also that we might have a better lynch by going here:
VOTE: Chito & Nuko.
This is actually what I'm feeling.

[mastina]

Right now I'm comfortable with C&N being my vote today.

This is actually where I'm at.
LuckyOtter is, almost certainly, town.
CheekyTeeky is, via play, almost certainly town.
nom is, both via play and scum picking nom, almost certainly town.

Leaving three scum candidates: {Gemini, Chito & Nuko, Parachutes}, for two scum slots.

I don't see a non-Chito/Nuko scumteam here. Gemini-Parachutes doesn't really jive with me as much as Gemini-Chito/Nuko or Parachutes-Chito/Nuko. In either case, I actually think Chito/Nuko is the better lynch.

[mastina]

And does that make you two confirmed town now?

The thingy said that there was no guarantee that any of us was town though.

Right now, going off the the assumption that Mastina+Nom. are telling the truth, that leaves four, with two being scum, that's something to go on for now at least.

Chito: Fake dumbtell? Less than half a page away from this point being addressed.
VOTE: Gemini

Can you expand on that thought?

Right before the bolded, gemini implies that scum would be unlikely to act a certain way, but that a good player could pull off such behaviors. I should have highlighted this part, too.

The bolded is a deflection from discussion on the read - "but I can't get caught up on this type of *if* right now"

a mechanical reason for going against her read - "because - as of right now we don't have anyone or anything to refuse what you two have said."

and affirmation that despite the reasons for her read to be wrong, she still holds that read - "So I'll take note of it and try to keep a broader perspective." To her credit, the broader perspective part is good. The part about taking note of her read (presumably for future use, as that's why we take notes) given her stated reasons not to hold that read is what's scummy.

Also why I prefer Chito/Nuko over Gemini:
Both Chito/Nuko and Parachutes, the other two scum candidates, are pushing for Gemini as scum.

[mastina]

VOTE: Gemini

VOTE: Gemini
Good Luck.

...

...Just so you know.

I hate you all.

[mastina]

I was put in a PT with C/N last night

Hey LuckyOtter remember when I commented on how it seemed unusual that nom wasn't in the PT with me? (Or something to that effect, pretty sure I posted that? I certainly THOUGHT it at the very least.)

This explains that.

At this stage, I'm willing to bet the game on this:
VOTE: Chito & Nuko

[mastina]

Yeaaaaaah you're probably right. This smells like a huge trap. I want to hear Mastina's take on this too.

My take is that it makes complete and total sense--I was wondering why you weren't in the PT with me again, but you being in a different PT explains that. The scum having chosen those PTs with those players also makes me more sure:

LuckyOtter was the tracker clear. Putting him into the PT, which was something townreadable, makes sense; it gives the town nothing they don't already have.
You and I were both the trackers. Putting us into the PT got us townread, so putting us back into PTs makes sense; it gives the town nothing they don't already have.

Chito & Nuko are the odd man out.

And yet, they were put into the PT that was to disperse setup information.

Also--I have good reason to believe that LuckyOtter is town from the CheekyTeeky nightkill.
I told him last night that killing CheekyTeeky would be doing the town a favor; CheekyTeeky was one of the big three obvtown along-side nom and Porkens, but by MECHANICS was not cleared, whereas both nom and LuckyOtter WERE mechanically soft-cleared. LuckyOtter had good insight into said reasoning and thus had good reasons to believe killing CheekyTeeky was sub-optimal. That CheekyTeeky died demonstrates that scum went with a sub-optimal nightkill, in spite of me giving reasons for why it was sub-optimal to LuckyOtter.

[mastina]

what is the benefit to scum of making more pt's (and giving town more power) than they absolutely have to?

I don't think we can answer that and I don't think we should try--it's a proven fact that scum made them. Their reasons for what are basically irrelevant. They did so. So the 'why' is more important here.

[mastina]

@Mastina do you think, from your experience with each of them in the PT's, that this is a possible world?

Considering that *I* was the one who suggested both the LuckyOtter track and the LuckyOtter doc?

Fuck no.

[mastina]

For team {LO, C+N}
Night 1, they give an investigative role to Mastina and Nom, both very bright players, and they almost get caught, but C+N makes the kill
For this to be real, choosing C+N to make the kill demonstrates a choice that a) mastina and nom are more likely to check LO than C+N and b) that if someone is going to be red checked, it should be C+N
town!mastina d1 was pretty set on her solve, but a green flip D1 might have set her off solving again. I don't think I'd be confident in that.
@nom were you scum reading either of C+N or LO at the end of D1?

The thing about that is:
nom and I had identical reads D1.
apthet, Gemini as our scumteam; tertiary suspect...

...Chito & Nuko.

We both agreed that the only scumteam in which Chito & Nuko make the kill is in Gemini-C/N, because in literally any other scumteam combo, the other scum's going to make the kill to avoid the track.

[mastina]

D2 for them they give the doctor shot to Lucky and Mastina so that lucky can guide the save off of their night target of cheeky?
I guess that probably wouldn't have been a hard lift

Actually.

LuckyOtter advocated for protecting CheekyTeeky.

It was ME who dissuaded him from that.

[mastina]

Send C+N to go try and send me the info to implicate me some how

Oh?

Funny.

I don't recall either nom or Chito/Nuko, the two members of that PT, publicly saying that Chito/Nuko advocated for you to have the info.
Where were you informed of this advocation?

[mastina]

Oh nevermind. Herpderp I be dumb. Found it.

[mastina]

Mastina you should unvote

I don't see why.

If the scumteam is nom-LuckyOtter, fucking well played I just give up and let them win; they deserve it.
If the scumteam is nom-Parachutes, fucking well played.
If the scumteam is LuckyOtter-Parachutes, fucking well played; LuckyOtter's choice in nightkill after my doc save is something where I let him win because of it.
If the scumteam is anything else, you're one of the members of it.

If I'm going to lose to one of the above teams, so be it; they earned their win and I'll take the blame for having gamethrown and will deserve it.
But I'm never not voting you; the when is irrelevant.

[mastina]

What.
What.
W h a t.

W
H
A
T.

Parachutes and I were put in the internship last night.
And they basically scumclaimed in there.
No, seriously.
Parachutes said that they misread what rolestop did; I thought that meant that they selected it as scum not realizing that it was a protection.

When they DID realize what rolestops do, they self-protected instead of protecting nom. BUT THEN, they later changed their protection target to match mine, nom.

It was literally a scumclaim.
I was literally going to instavote them.
It was final proof that they were scum.

So I repeat.

WHAT.

[mastina]

On the one hand, thank you scum for potentially game throwing. If Parachutes was left alive I'd have instavoted them, allowing for a scum win.

On the other hand.

Fuck you, scum. I'm in lylo. I didn't deserve to live past D2. Even with living, because I can be mislynched, I guess.
Unless I am voted, I probably am going to be the hammer vote, and I literally have no clue which of you it is.

Also.
Double fuck you, because regardless of which of you it is, you made me protect scum.

And.
Triple fuck you, because by putting me in the pt last night, you significantly reduced the odds I'd be voted, meaning that I probably WILL have that hammer.

And goddammit this would be SO MUCH SIMPLER if all I had to do is defend myself and case who votes me, but nooooooooooooooooooooo. You had to make me look town.

So fuck you.

[mastina]

wait a second

you were put in a ROLESTOP PT.

What the fuck are you trying to pull

Yes.
Rolestop.
As in.
"Stops all actions, including the scum kill, targeting the player you select".
A super doctor.
And we used it on you last night.

[mastina]

Like I could see reasons for you killing Chutes but Otter?

Like

Either you just paved the best game ever for Otter to win this game or you're just coming up with insane shit to say and I'm leaning towards the latter right now.

Counterpoint.
You were considering two scumteams yesterday. Me, or Parachutes.

I protected you.

If I were scum, I'd kill LuckyOtter, who was wide open.

I have a LONG established history of NEVER WIFOM night killing as scum, so.

[mastina]

wait a second

you were put in a ROLESTOP PT.

What the fuck are you trying to pull

Yes.
Rolestop.
As in.
"Stops all actions, including the scum kill, targeting the player you select".
A super doctor.
And we used it on you last night.

There is still a watch PT in the pool why on earth would scums choose the rolestop PT to put you and chutes in?

And if they do, that kinda makes you look VERY bad right now.

Counterpoint: Parachutes' death is PROOF that it was a two town rolestop.

Why?

If it were the watcher, scum could kill whoever. A guilty wouldn't matter. You have a 50-50 in lylo.

If it was one scum in the rolestop pt, they could kill whichever one wasn't being protected. If Parachutes protected LuckyOtter, kill nom; if Parachutes protected nom, kill LuckyOtter. As scum in the pt, I'd know which action to take.

In contrast?

Say that one of you or LuckyOtter is scum, and assigned the pt to be all town.

You don't know who they are role stopping.
As a result, you don't know if your kill will succeed, and if it fails, you risk becoming exposed as confscum.
Why?
Because scum in the pt know who NOT to kill, thus, a failed kill makes both members of the pt AND their target as conftown, exposing the lone scum.

The only way to not risk that is to kill inside the pt. Ergo, the death of Parachutes means scum didn't know who was being protected.

I'd like to point out also:
Parachute's rolestop was on themselves until just before deadline. I didn't know Parachute had changed targets until it'd have been too late.

Thus.
For me to be scum.
I'd have to have banked on ME winning the draw.

Because again.
Parachutes self-rolestopped; for me to have killed them, I'd have had to target them KNOWING that they self targeted.

[mastina]

Then again it could just very well be a watch PT and the result would be the same and the rolestop PT stuff is just trying to induce me in error.

But I'll pretend it's true for a second. Who do you think is scum here?

I don't know.

Like I said.

I was planning on instavoting Parachutes.

Their play was textbook scumplay.
I don't have a scumspect because my fucking scumspect was the fucking night kill.

[mastina]

Like I'm just running through the scenarios here.

If Otter is scum why make a rolestop PT with two townies and risk a 50/50 given that the protection only goes on me or Otter tonight?
Same reasoning for me pretty much.

Isn't it literally simpler for scum!otter to just make any other PT configuration (and most likely one with him) so he doesn't screw himself over?

It makes no sense. You must be scum.
If otter is scum congratulations you basically paved the way to win for him. But I just believe you're going for the long pocket game on Otter and that the self-lynching gambit you sold me in our PT was just words and a farce, and that your kill on chutes is just a last desperate attempt at trying to confuse town and lead it to its destruction like you've done these 2 first days.

VOTE: Mastina

Literally none of this holds, but I am phoneposting and cannot explain why until I am on my desktop.

[mastina]

Rolestopping wouldn't block me, it would block all actions on me. It makes me an ascetic BP for the night.

I am still cleared by the mechanics of this game though, so yeah. Mastina's just trying to gambit and failing at it.

If the information that you gave yesterday is true? Sure!
You said that scum can't both be in a pt; you said that scum making an extra pt delays nightless; you said that you were in a pt with scum.

…Problem is?
You said that, not proven town. The only one who knows if your info is right, is you. I have no way of knowing that it's not scum telling a half truth and lying where convenient.

Don't pretend otherwise.

[mastina]

I'd like to point out also:
Parachute's rolestop was on themselves until just before deadline. I didn't know Parachute had changed targets until it'd have been too late.

Thus.
For me to be scum.
I'd have to have banked on ME winning the draw.

Because again.
Parachutes self-rolestopped; for me to have killed them, I'd have had to target them KNOWING that they self targeted.

When they DID realize what rolestops do, they self-protected instead of protecting nom. BUT THEN, they later changed their protection target to match mine, nom.

That last minute addition rofl

These are not mutually exclusive statements and when I am on my fucking desktop I can fucking prove it with timestamps.

[mastina]

Then again it could just very well be a watch PT and the result would be the same and the rolestop PT stuff is just trying to induce me in error.

But I'll pretend it's true for a second. Who do you think is scum here?

I don't know.

Like I said.

I was planning on instavoting Parachutes.

Their play was textbook scumplay.
I don't have a scumspect because my fucking scumspect was the fucking night kill.

If you're town it should be obvious that nom is scum. Otherwise I would have hammered you by now......

Not necessarily.

I role claimed VT to nom, but not publicly. If you were scum, you'd be worried about the possibility that I am a vengeful townie.

I'm not, but until this post? You'd not have that.

Slow-rolling is a thing. Caution as scum is what I always use. I ALWAYS wait for the town to cross-vote as scum, JUST to be sure.

And I expect no different from you. I'm not voting nom, because I am NOT sure you're not scum slow-rolling.

[mastina]

Chutes was right, there was only one reason to give town this extra PT, and that's because they knew they didn't win this yesterday. C/N was scum-looking as fuck and you insta-bussed him.

Problem with that:
I wanted them dead D2.
I instavoted them D3…
…And then left the thread.

If I were scum powerbussing, I'd have stuck around to push them.

I left because if they were town, I didn't want to be around for the fallout.

In lylos, when I cast a vote as scum, I stay around in case I need to explain.
When I cast votes as town, I vacate the thread immediately.

Again, if I wasn't phoneposting, I could give you examples, but I am unable to until I get home.

[mastina]

I role claimed VT to nom, but not publicly. If you were scum, you'd be worried about the possibility that I am a vengeful townie.

W H A T

There's nothing confusing about that.

You, nom, know that I am a VT. I claimed it to you N2, after you specifically asked me if I was a PR. I told you I wasn't.

That info was never shared publicly. So LuckyOtter wouldn't KNOW that I am a VT.
Yes I think it obvious personally since I gave it away D1, but a cautious LuckyOtter wouldn't take the risk.

My profile of LuckyOtter is that of a methodical player who takes no risks. Hammering me is a risk.

[mastina]

Like that kind of discussion is insane because it's obvious you just never vote Otter here anyway. It's just pointless fluff. In a LYLO where you're practically caught scum.

Yeah the thing is.
Lylo, caught scum, and mastina are mutually exclusive in a sentence.

As scum, I make sure to take the least risky path that leaves me the most options.

Killing my fucking rival suspect especially when they were self protecting until too late for me to see otherwise is the polar opposite.

And again. I can fucking prove all of this …
…Once I am home and not phoneposting.

[mastina]

And the real kicker is.
In spite of nom's gaslighting.
I still am not sure that they are scum.
In fact, it's slightly BECAUSE of the gas lighting that I have my Doubs since it's something that doesn't seem like scum.

Stupid. Delusional. Manipulative. Yes. But not scum.

And that's why I am fairly sure that the game will be over by the time I am home.

[mastina]

As scum, I make sure to take the least risky path that leaves me the most options.

I wouldn't call "forced to have a vote on a player and putting my destiny on the hands of a player that called me the lynchpin of the scumteam" the least risky path because that's what you're implying here.

The least risky path is killing you and leaving LuckyOtter alive.
LuckyOtter didn't scumread me and you did. Ergo in a 1v1 with Parachutes, LuckyOtter is more likely to side with me than you are.

In contrast, you are likely to vote me in lylo. Especially when your only other suspect just flipped town.

LuckyOtter is more likely to vote me than you.

Killing Parachutes is literally suicidal for me.
Yes, I think killing Parachutes was suicidal REGARDLESS of who's scum, but it is the MIST suicidal for ME.

[mastina]

Just put your money where your mouth is now.

If you truly think I can't be scum despite me voting you and that Otter is just slowrolling this then just put that conviction on the table. What you're doing is just gross and serves no purpose.

I already said that I DON'T know who it is.

I DON'T know that LuckyOtter is slow-rolling.
I DON'T know that you are scum.

I DON'T know, because I was 200% sure that the last scum was Parachutes …
…Who for some fucking reason. Ate the fucking night kill.

And I don't know who is more likely to pull that stunt. It's like 55/45 Otter/nom.

[mastina]

Also,vfuck. My battery is during, so I need to leave for home. I don't want my phone yo die on MW, it'd be a bit of a nuisance.

So, really CAN'T respond anymore until I am home.
Not that I expect it to matter because I still suspect LucjyOtter as scum, so.

[mastina]

Okay, I am home, and can now back some statements up. I'll start them off with a pagetop.

[mastina]

Alright.
For proof that by the time Parachutes changed the target?

The posts in the PT are literally the opening post. You both know what that looks like more or less so no need to paraphrase it. It's an engineering internship, from having knocked it out of the park, rolestop 36 hours into the phase one of us selected.
My first post? Friday at 3 PM: "go ahead and kill me, or LuckyOtter I guess, but seriously, you're NOT killing nom tonight.
ROLESTOP: nom.
Also, fuck you for giving me a PT three nights in a row. "

Saturday, at midnight, Parachutes voted me and said nothing but "fast night go".
Five minutes later, he said "oh I misunderstood what rolestop did" and instead voted for himself.
Saturday, at 8:30 pm, he changed his vote to nom. Why is that date important? Because at that time,

I was at a staff meeting

. I was at a staff meeting, literally in the pool, doing a live drill exercise. This is pretty damn provable, both time-wise and event-wise if you'd like me to tell it.

And you know when schadd locked the thread?
...10 pm. One and a half hours later.

I was online at the time...but I was critically, busy elsewhere; you can look here to see what I was doing. I was busy doing other things. I COULDN'T have known that Parachutes changed from a self-protect to nom.

[mastina]

Like that kind of discussion is insane because it's obvious you just never vote Otter here anyway. It's just pointless fluff. In a LYLO where you're practically caught scum.

Yeah the thing is.
Lylo, caught scum, and mastina are mutually exclusive in a sentence.

As scum, I make sure to take the least risky path that leaves me the most options.

Killing my fucking rival suspect especially when they were self protecting until too late for me to see otherwise is the polar opposite.

And again. I can fucking prove all of this …
…Once I am home and not phoneposting.

For the proof of this?
This is a scumgame of mine.
Look at those kills I made every single stage.
Conftown, power roles, strong town players, each and every single time.
In lylo, I made sure to not vote until town had cross-voted. If you look at the scum PT, I specifically said to my scumbuddy not to vote until town had cross-voted.
In this game, I killed conftown and players that were strong town.

You know who I took to lylo?
TWO MISLYNCH BAIT PLAYERS.
The two players who were the lowest hanging fruit, most lynchbaity players, the players easiest to mislynch, I took to 3p lylo.

This game, the players I killed were all players that were conftown or highly town and I left players who were mislynch bait alive. That game also contains an example of how I bus. Look at what I did that game to bus; push hard, early, often, and consistently.

In this game, the players I killed were all players that were conftown or power town players. In the night before 3p lylo I killed obvtown. In the night before 5p lylo, I killed obvtown. And look at how I treated my scumbuddy. In the night before 7p lylo, I killed obvtown. And again, look at how I treated my scumbuddy there.

And again, when it comes to the busses I did. Look at it. Particularly the Pine bus. Early, often, hard, strong.

I don't weak-ass it.

I'm a little rushed right now but I can dig up more but I feel this makes my point.

[mastina]

Chutes was right, there was only one reason to give town this extra PT, and that's because they knew they didn't win this yesterday. C/N was scum-looking as fuck and you insta-bussed him.

Problem with that:
I wanted them dead D2.
I instavoted them D3…
…And then left the thread.

If I were scum powerbussing, I'd have stuck around to push them.

I left because if they were town, I didn't want to be around for the fallout.

In lylos, when I cast a vote as scum, I stay around in case I need to explain.
When I cast votes as town, I vacate the thread immediately.

Again, if I wasn't phoneposting, I could give you examples, but I am unable to until I get home.

For proof of this?
That I leave as town after casting a lylo vote but leave as scum?
Look at the times I go cast a vote in lylo.
Small sample size I know, but two key examples come to mind.
Red Flag, dropped a vote in lylo and left immediately. Game over before I returned.
This game, dropped a vote in lylo and left soon after. Game was over before I got home.
There's more than that, but I'd need to hunt them down and I am low on time right now.

[mastina]

Like I'm just running through the scenarios here.

If Otter is scum why make a rolestop PT with two townies and risk a 50/50 given that the protection only goes on me or Otter tonight?
Same reasoning for me pretty much.

Isn't it literally simpler for scum!otter to just make any other PT configuration (and most likely one with him) so he doesn't screw himself over?

It makes no sense. You must be scum.
If otter is scum congratulations you basically paved the way to win for him. But I just believe you're going for the long pocket game on Otter and that the self-lynching gambit you sold me in our PT was just words and a farce, and that your kill on chutes is just a last desperate attempt at trying to confuse town and lead it to its destruction like you've done these 2 first days.

VOTE: Mastina

Literally none of this holds, but I am phoneposting and cannot explain why until I am on my desktop.

As for this. The fact that Parachutes was the nightkill proves that the PT created was a rolestop one with two town in it. Because in LITERALLY ANY OTHER CONFIGURATION. One of {LuckyOtter, nom} is the nightkill.
If scum did place themselves into the PT with Parachutes, then that puts them in a bad position. Scum can't be the one nightkilled, and scum have only one viable protection: whoever's the town in {LuckyOtter, nom}.
If nom is scum and puts themselves in the PT, it's a scumclaim if LuckyOtter dies. Same vice-versa.
If nom is scum and doesn't put themselves in the PT, it's a scumclaim if a kill on LuckyOtter fails. Same vice-versa.

As for the destruction.
Don't fucking give me that shit.
I owned apthet D1.
YOU were the one who told me to not self-vote D2, and I was still considering doing it D2 anyway. I even said as much PUBLICLY. I said "I owe you the mastina lynch, but we need to wait for nom's tracker result on LuckyOtter first". And then post-tracker-result...YOU were the one who QUICKLYNCHED GEMINI BEFORE I COULD GIVE MY THOUGHTS. Don't even fucking TRY to blame that shit on me. That was YOU. And if you think otherwise you're fucking delusional. D1 was my fault; I own up to it and will take full blame for it, but D2? That shit? 100%. Completely. Entirely. On. You. Don't fucking pretend otherwise.

So like I said.
Literally none of that held.

[mastina]

The thing is that I can't trust you for the same reason you said you couldn't blindly trust me. Because for all I know you are making everything up as a gambit to try and divert my attention to Otter, or vice versa.

Yeah the thing about that is I can't fucking fake information like timestamps and yet can offer them up.

And the thing is, you can fake them because there's a scum PT; I can't fake one with town because there's no faking it.
There's proof of when players were, and were not, online. Parachutes's online activity would prove that they were online during the times I fucking said they were posting, and my posts show when I was posting just as much.
I can't fucking fake shit like the fact that we weren't BCC'd we were CCd so both Parachutes and I knew we were in a topic together. I can't fucking fake shit like the time the mod told me I was in an internship, which was 10 am. (Well, 5 after.)

I can't fucking fake that shit, because that fucking shit happened.

Also I don't lie as scum so I can't bullshit worth a damn.

When I say something happened.

It's because that thing fucking happened.

I've literally never lied as scum ever aside from obvious lies. Alignment. Exact results from a role when using a mod-provided role. Small stuff like that. The closest was my fabrication in MBoS1, but even that? That was me truthfully claiming my scum factional power more or less.

I told you, this discussion is pointless, it's going to be a bunch of "I WOULDN'T DO THIS AS SCUM".

Yes but I can actually back that up with established meta because I have hundreds of games including literally dozens of scumgames which fucking prove me right when I say the shit I do.

So when I fucking say I wouldn't do something as scum.

It's because...I wouldn't. fucking. do. it. as. scum.
And can fucking prove it.

My vote has close to nothing to do with the PT stuff, it's just how you acted throughout this game.

Oh sure then let's talk about what I did throughout the game like, yaknow.
Not lynching Gemini.
Trying to lynch Chito and Nuko only to be told that YOU lynched Gemini.
Voting Chito and Nuko immediately in lylo.
Not having hard-bussed as is my scum meta when I bus.
Not having stuck around to create interactions.
Not having stuck around to set up a favorable lylo.
Not having stuck around when not sticking around after casting a lylo vote is what I do when I'm town.
Shutting Chito and Nuko up and saying "I'm not going to unvote".
Yaknow.
Stuff like that?

Or how about comparing my play to My Flowchart?
Go down the list, see what clicks.
Like my insulting players.
Like my lack of going for allies.
And so on and so forth?

How about that?

I'm town by fucking play because this is my fucking towngame.

[mastina]

There are reasons for you to make the chute kill

And those reasons are?

...Why, because Parachutes had me as scum?
Why, because I called Parachutes as scum?
Why, because Parachutes was self-protecting as a rolestopper?
Why, because of Parachutes-me interactions in the PT?

[mastina]

What's the point of these walls when what you should be doing is sorting us both, even if it's obvious?

Because regardless of whether you or Otter are scum, I am town and need to convince the town in you not to vote me.

Only when I know for sure I am not getting hammered can I look into who's town and who's scum.

Your mindset coming in today was "lol i'm going to hammer" then not sorting us at all??

I. was. at. work. With. a. fucking. dieing. phone.

No fucking shit I couldn't sort you all?

And right now I'm out of time so I can't right now.
And you voted me literally minutes into the day so no fucking shit my focus isn't on sorting players yet?

Again, if Otter is scum you literally just gave him the win here but there's no slowrolling here lol, come on

Oh really now?

And WHO, pray tell, was the one that voted immediately out of the gate in fucking lylo when I was at fucking work and couldn't fucking explain myself?

WHO, pray tell, fucking hammered yesterday before I could explain my stances yesterday in more detail?

WHO, pray tell, fucking lynched Gemini on D2 before I could defend against that?

Those weren't me, now, were they.

So if LuckyOtter is scum.
WHO, pray tell, is handing him the win?



Don't fucking delude yourself.
You're town, this loss is 100% purely on YOU.

[mastina]

I scumread gemini throughout day 1 and day 2. I'd do it again if I had to.

And now you're fucking scumreading me when I'm town.
When I reevaulated and had Gemini as town.

So again.

WHOSE fault is it, if LuckyOtter is scum, that you threw the game?

[mastina]

Also no sane town agrees to you lynching yourself out of pure ego, that's just madness and you know it.
Everything you're writing is ego and madness, it's pointless and serves no purpose and you have better priorities right now.

Welcome to my fucking towngame.

I am crazy. I am insane. I am not neurotypical. I am strange. I am weird. I am unorthodox. My scumplay's methodical, meticulous, ordered, structured, logical, very very precise, clean, and just perfect; my towngame is a fucking hot mess of chaotic shit that is ridiculously ego-driven because I am a fucking vain narcissistic egotistical bitch.

But you're fucking right.

I DO have better priorities right now.

They're called the fucking things I. am. neglecting. In order to be in this game right now.
Like lunch.
Like other stuff.
Like things I want to do.

But you know why I am still here?

Because I still fucking think you could be town and I hate that shit so much and am angry and am frustrated and all-around if you're town I want to be clear in just how much I am going fuck you, to you.

I said fuck you to the scum, but if YOU are town, pulling this shit?

Just fuck you more than that and you fucking DESERVE that loss.

[mastina]

Not lynching Gemini.

Yeah, 100% no.If you're honestly banking our town win on you being right on me...we're in trouble.

alarm bells rising again
god fucking damn it

Hey, your alarm bells ring for Gemini and you had apthet as a scumread so maybe you can sheep me when I say we should just lynch apthet because we legitimately just have the game won?

Almost everyone has apthet as a scumread.
Almost everyone has or had Gemini as a scumread.

Those reads aren't wrong.

We can get a perfect town win here as long as not caving in to stupid paranoia about "it couldn't possibly be that easy, right?".
But it legitimately genuinely just is.

Please.

Lynching a player is a collective effort.

Oh yes and what was 509?
It was a post on fucking D1.
You know what happened at the end of D1?
apthet flipped town.
You know what I did?
I fucking reevaluated.

[mastina]

I think the most likely reason is mechanical.

Yes mastina the player who is ridiculously mechanically-oriented makes the mechanical play which confirms her as scum.

Yes, mastina the mechanical player decides not to use a fucking watcher when a watcher result in lylo means jackshit.

I'm not a psychic but it must be something among the lines of you thinking that Otter would be protected yet again, but chutes decided to protect me.

Except the timestamps and paraphrase prove otherwise.

[mastina]

There is no guarantee that she made a rolestopper PT.

Okay.

Now I know you're scum.

VOTE: nom.

Why?

Because there IS a guarantee that there was a PT made:

Your own.

So basically I was informed that

the scums this game have to put at least one pair of people in a PT each night

, and that they could give them an action in a pool of 5 different actions: heal, inform, rolestop, track and watch. I received every single introduction thingy to every PT and the names are "medical interns", "data science interns", "engineering interns", "tech interns" and "FBI interns" respectively. They can't use the same action twice and they can't put 2 scums in a PT.

I was also informed that the game would become nightless on day 3 (aka today) and that the moderator would inform publicly everyone of that, but that this deadline would be expanded for a day for every excess PT they create. So I guess that since it wasn't announced that this game was nightless from now on, you guys aren't lying about your PT. But still, really fucking sucks that you and mastina were put in it. That kind of changes things I was dead set on C/N-Chutes and was 100% expecting for Chutes to be in another PT when I received this information. Now I need to think about all of this real quick.

You, 100%, know that there HAD to be a PT made last night.

I am un-CC'd as being in it.
Because I am un-CC'd as being in it.
You, 100%, know that I was in it with Parachutes.

Because I was in it with Parachutes, you have 100% confirmation that I was in a private topic.
And you also have evidence that it was a rolestop, not a watch.
If the night action were a watch...one, why the fuck wouldn't I just claim it? Say I watched nom last night and got no guilty? (I was the one who won the roll btw. schadd rolled a 1d2, I was one, the result was one, so I was the one who did the rolestop.)
Or, alternatively and potentially even better: why not just say I watched the nightkill and that I got a guilty? Lock in a 50/50 1v1 which I would have the advantage in?

Given a choice between watcher-mastina claiming a guilty on Parachutes and Parachutes claiming I am lying and don't have a guilty on Parachutes, who is more believable? It's me by far.

Or, alternatively, and just as viable: if I were scum with a watch night action and intended to nightkill Parachutes, knowing the action was guaranteed to succeed, not fail, and couldn't get caught because Parachutes was in the PT with me...why the fuck would I claim to be in a PT at all? Sure, the lack of someone claiming to be in a PT would be proof that Parachutes shared a PT with scum that night, but it would deny the town the information of knowing who was placed in the PT and it would deny the town of knowing what power was used last night.

If I were scum, all three of those were OPTIMAL actions.

The watch was 100% the better night action for scum to lock in, because best case scenario no guilty happens and thus no consequences; worst case scenario, you're locked into a 50/50 night action.

The rolestop was 100% the worse night action for scum to lock in.

So for me to be scum you have to argue an occam's razor violation of "I either locked in the optimal night action, then killed the worst person given that locked in night action, then decided to lie about this, or I told the truth about having locked in the sub-optimal night action, then killed the worst person given that locked in night action, then decided to tell the truth about all of this instead of lying".

Neither of those are simple; they both require contrived, convoluted twists in logic to work as a plan.

What's the end goal? Wifom?

I literally wrote the book on that term.
And while we're linking to articles I wrote.
Here's my guide to scumplay.
Highlights? Playing as a team; my Chito/Nuko interactions were against that. Planning? What was my plan? I'd have had one on D1. Get players who're scumreading you lynched? Gee that sure sounds like I'd leave Parachutes alive, now, doesn't it? Lynch players who aren't mislynch bait but are realistically able to be lynched? Again, that's Parachutes. Making friends? Refer to how I treated CheekyTeeky to see how much of a fuck I gave about making friends. Who to kill? Whoever I'd damn-well want to, which would've been you or LuckyOtter.
What about this article? Oh sure there's the AtE a plenty, and the self-meta, but it's also more evidence of how I approach scumbuddies. Also there's the activity thing; I very much haven't been active.

Here's a good read on what I work on; possibilities versus probabilities. Going into last night the probability which was overwhelming was that Parachutes was the last scum. He was literally the guy I thought was 100%, 200%, scum. With him having flipped town, one of the possibilities which I wrote off as being nothing more than fucking paranoia was going to be true. But there's an outline there of my process.

Tips to scum. Highlights?

Not getting concerned about power roles

. My scum modus operandi is "fuck power roles, kill who I want". Parachutes was a PR last night, so fuck mechanical reasons to kill him; I wouldn't kill him because I selected him, least of all because

I would have had the power to choose who was with me

.

Why not make a PT with myself and nom? In that PT, we protect (or watch) LuckyOtter and I kill nom. Then I get an easy 3p lylo with Parachutes and LuckyOtter and get a free win.
Why not make a PT with myself and LuckyOtter? In that PT, we protect (or watch) nom and I kill LuckyOtter. The resulting 3p is harder, but not impossible, because I can defend my D3 actions when I actually can fucking post which I didn't get a chance to do on D3 because there was a fucking hammer.

This was a game where scum got to fucking CHOOSE who was the power roles. So damn straight I wouldn't see a mechanical reason to kill Parachutes. The only reason why I would kill someone is because of their play...and Parachutes was by fucking FAR the easiest mislynch in the game for me to vie for. nom? Seen as town. LuckyOtter? Seen as town. Parachutes? Widely, nigh-universally, suspected as scum. An easily-obtained mislynch.

As for the tips...me being calm?

Do I fucking look collected to you here.

I literally got a fucking warning this game for abusive behavior.

Fuck.

I literally wrote the book on why not to bus.
No seriously.
I wrote the book on when to bus, with the answer being "basically never, but if you DO, do it smartly". Running risk-reward analysis where the risk is minimal and the reward is overwhelmingly game-winning.
Oh and speaking of Risk-Reward analysis...guess what? I wrote the book on that, too.

your goal is to seek the fastest, easiest route to controlling 50% of the town. This is why bussing with reckless abandon is so stupendously stupid--you are delaying your goal (making it take longer), while also making it harder to achieve (making it less likely to happen).

You can't do something just because it feels like it "should" be done. You can't do something just because it feels obligatory. At all times, ask yourself: "Is it worth it?"

And though I already linked it, for a repeat: The Flowchart to how to read me.

Vote in lylo? I fucking freaked out.
Posting up a storm? I am now.
Gloating how good my scumgame is? Fuck yes I am.
Delusions of grandeur? Does "I literally just think the game's apthet-Gemini" ring any bells? It fucking should.
Waffling? I literally didn't fucking vote nom even after LuckyOtter posted.
Antagonizing everyone? You fucking bet I did.
MD Theory? Fuck yes I have.
Rambles? Debatable, solid "maybe" at the very least tho.
Breadcrumb my role? I basically gave away that I was a VT on D1 when I said that I expected the game to be all vanilla pretty much.
Irrational play? Take. one. fucking. guess.
Lost temper? I've got a fucking PM from PenguinPower to prove it.
Random, illogical theories? GEE I WONDER WHAT I SPEW WHEN MY FUCKING SCUMSPECT IS DEAD AND BOTH THE LIVING PLAYERS WERE MY TOP TOWNREADS.
Wildly inconsistent posting? Hmm I wonder.
Genuine interest in finding scum? Read my fucking D1 posts and tell me that shit was faked.
Town point of view? No fucking shit they do.
Reads not explained in crystal clarity? When did I ever fucking explain my reads ONCE? I didn't.
Tone not flat? Tell me my posts have a fucking flat tone. Fucking DARE you to.
Not focusing on scumhunting? No fucking shit, I was fucking voted in 3p lylo out of the gate; that puts me on the fucking defensive.
Minimal resistance to lynching me? Who was opposed to my lynch at any stage? Who was opposed to suspicion on me at any stage?

There is no guarantee that what she said happened in the PT was true.

There fucking is.

During the start of N3, at 10 am PST (well five minutes after), schadd sent a message to mastina and Parachutes. Titled micro 871 internship.
schadd was online at the time; proof can be found here.

The topic was created two minutes before the PM was sent.

The contents of the opening post, paraphrased, were:
"You kicked ass. Knocked it out of the park. Recruiters were impressed. In addition to any other roles you possess, you're engineering interns tonight.

One will take a rolestop action. You should VOTE someone you want to rolestop; you may vote yourself. One of you will randomly be chosen at 36 hours--as close as I can manage--and that person's action will go through.

In case you were following the first couple MBoS games; yes you two were chosen by scum. (Crossed out text: You may or may not be doing military stuff.) However, there's no guarantee you're both town.

Good luck; I'd recommend acting busy and talking like you're working on material design or something."

Inside of a table with mafsilver coloring.

That same Friday, June 14th, I said: "Yeah go ahead and kill me if you want, go ahead and kill LuckyOtter if you want, because. Really.
ROLESTOP: nom (notably, I didn't technically speaking use the vote tag but schadd accepted it anyway)
You're not killing nom unless you want to risk losing the 50/50.
Also fuck you for giving me this three nights in a row. "

Proof I was online at that time? Right here.

Saturday, June 15, at just about half an hour (a little under ten minutes less) after midnight, Parachutes posted:
"VOTE: mastina
Fast night okay". (I can't really paraphrase that statement much because that's literally it.)

The proof may or may not show, but there's 174 posts there for me.

Five minutes later, Parachutes said,
"Oh I misunderstood rolestop, lol
VOTE: Parachutes".

Then on Saturday, June 15, at 8:30 pm PST on the dot.
"VOTE: nom (note, exactly those three letters both in my vote and his vote)
Actually, yeah, nom is fine". (This one, he used a different word than 'yeah' but I'm worried that if I used the EXACT word verbatim I'd eat a modkill, so. It was a word meaning the same thing and starting with the same first letter, but shorter.)

And schadd closed the PT on Saturday at 10 pm PST. Also on the dot. He said, "You've both opted for nomnomnom. Rolling to see who does the action". (Paraphrased.) He rolled a 1d2, stating 1 = mastina; 2 = Parachutes. The roll was 1.
Then on Sunday, 10:15 amish, he made one final post: "pow!". (Kinda hard to paraphrase a one-word post.)

I was at fucking work at that time; the proof is how I've worked the Sunday Morning shift at work for five and a half years continuously, on the dot, each and every single week of each and every single year barring closed days/vacation days.

I can't fucking prove it any better than that and I can't fucking fake that shit.

If there is a pocket happening, it's mastina trying to pocket you since literally day 1

What

pocket? Having LuckyOtter as one of my weakest townreads D1? Saying he had a reasonable chance of being scum N1? Only clearing him after YOU gave your result? Thinking he had a 55% chance of being scum today even after you voted me?

That sure as fuck looks like pocketing to me, yep, it sure does.

I wanted to track C/N that night and we probably would have gotten a guilty, but she insisted to go on you through long walls of texts. THAT is pocketing.

Yeah that's self-evidently bullshit.

If there's a scum in the tracker PT, guess what?
That scum knows who the town member selects to track.
If the town member selects their scumbuddy to be tracked?
Then the scum inside the PT makes the nightkill.
Because they can both kill and action.

BAM.

Had we tracked Chito and Nuko, we wouldn't have gotten a fucking guilty.
You know why?
Because if I were scum then I'd be doing the nightkill.
If you were scum, then you'd be doing the nightkill.
And better yet; as the one to receive the result you could always if REALLY necessary...just. Yaknow. LIE about the result.

[mastina]

Mastina's play makes sense as scum if you approach it from a perspective that she is gambitting and literally banking everything on "I WOULD NEVER DO THIS AS TOWN"

Yeah the problem with that is I have ten fucking years of games which establish my record for what I do and don't fucking do.

I don't fucking lie as scum.

I don't fucking nightkill my scumspects as scum.

I don't fucking nightkill mislynch bait as scum.

I don't fucking GAMBIT as scum.

I can prove this with a compiled list of all my scumgames. Made one a while back and since it's been literally a fucking year since I drew scum the last compilation of it still holds true. Subject: Anime U-Pick: King Size [SEASON FINALE...?]

Spoiler: Extensive list of scumgames last five years

mystery box of silver
more songs
A Story Revisited
Minuet's Trio
Turn of Camn
XP Mafia
Organization XIII
Inventions Mafia
Newbie 1814
WWF Mafia
The Mystery At King's Landing
Civilization Mafia
Green Day UPick
Star Wars Rogue One
UNI MUM
Disney Villain
Inorganic Chemistry
molliegeddon
World of Mafiacraft
Newbie 1465
NY 172
Paranoia
Book of Shadows
Attack on Titan
Left 4 Dead
Micro 264
Micro 242
Micro 241
Micro 226
Mini 1530
Theater Season Mafia
Micro 195
Newbie 1378
Anything Goes
Shadows and Lights
The Walking Dead
Void Mountain Nightless
Buzzword Bingo
Micro 116
The Mind Reader
Playing With Fire
/in-vitational 15
Politics Mafia
Discworld Mafia

There maaaaaay be a mini normal or two not included, all alts are excluded, any hydra I didn't post on my main is excluded, but this is a pretty extensive list of my scumgames.

Feel free to peruse them all you'd like.
But you'll find exactly what I fucking said.
An extreme lack of gambits as scum.
An extreme lack of lying as scum.
An incredible lack of killing my scumspects as scum.
Over a period of five. fucking. YEARS. Of. continuously. Playing. No breaks. No alterations. No changes. Just over time. Showing those same consistent traits because they are fucking personality traits and fundamental playstyle beliefs.

My belief as scum is that you take the path of least risk and most reward.

Killing the largest fucking scumspect in the game is not the path of least fucking risk and it certainly has the least fucking reward.

My belief as scum is that you don't fucking lie because when you make the truth your ally the genuineness of your posts bleeds through. And by looking genuine because you ARE sincere, that appearance translates into generating townreads. So I never. fucking. lie. as scum.

and doing everything in her power today to try and stray you away from her bottlenecked position.

Hey guess what?

That bottleneck?

It only fucking exists because Parachutes was the fucking nightkill.

If I were scum.

All I'd fucking need.

To not be fucking bottlenecked.

Is not to fucking nightkill Parachutes.

For me to be scum you have to assume a lot of things that are pretty fucking out there.

Like what?

[mastina]

That fact is pretty obvious once you read her opening post to this lylo implying that she was not only conftown but would never vote here unless it's a hammer between you and me, which is just completely fucking insane.

And as established.

My fucking towngame IS the definition of insanity.

No, seriously.

Check how grating it was on the nerves of other players this game.
Check out how infuriating it was to players this game.
Check out how mind-boggling it was to players this game.
Check out players' frustrations with me this game.
Check out how off the rails it was this game.
Check out my antics this game. Critically, you know what I did D2?

I self-voted D2 after having colossally fucked up on D1.

So the idea that my offer to self-vote was a bluff? Proven false. I can, have, and WILL fucking self-vote as town on D2 if I fuck up on D1 badly enough.

I'd give more but I feel like ending on that last one is strong enough.

[mastina]

She's not even sorting

No fucking shit I'm not fucking sorting.

Because you fucking voted me.

Don't fucking pretend that I had a fucking chance to sort.

Because I was at fucking work.
And you fucking voted me.
While. I. was. at. fucking. work. With. nothing. but. my. phone. And. you. didn't. unvote.

There isn't a fucking scummer in the world as either alignment who would've been sorting at that time.
Literally every fucking scummer, regardless of being town or scum. Is going to be focusing on defense when they're fucking voted right out of the gate in lylo.

[mastina]

Ok for nom to be scum, they'd have to have made up the rule about no 2 scum in PTs together

WRONG.

LuckOtter,

I need you to pay attention to this because it is literally the most important post of all of my posts here.

Not that any of my posts are unimportant, they're all important here and I'm dead fucking serious that if you bothered to do one fucking iota of research to meta me the difference between my towngame and scumgame is day and fucking night with this transparently being out of my fucking scumrange, but while that's true, that's not as important as shutting down that misconception most of all.

nomnom claimed the following facts:

1. nom and Chito and Nuko were in an internship PT together.
   There is no evidence this PT exists.
   For instance, what if instead of it having been nom-Chito...it was nom-CheekyTeeky, and CheekyTeeky was the nightkill in case CheekyTeeky won the 50/50?
   
2. nom received information from this PT.
   There is no evidence nom's information comes from an internship and not simply information posted to the scum PT.
   Anything nom claimed could have been information scum were informed of in the scum PT.
   
3. Scum couldn't make a scum-scum PT. There's technically no evidence of this, either, but I'm not bolding this fact because while there's no evidence of it, it's pretty fucking self-evident. I'm including this for the sake of being a completionist; I'm not contesting this point, in other words.
   
4. Scum needed to make a PT each night. As above, technically no evidence of this, but again I'm not bolding this fact because I'm not contesting this point because I believe this to be true anyway; it's listed for the sake of completion only.
   
5. There were five internships available with the powers track, doc, info-giving, rolestop, and watcher.
   There is no evidence nom's list is truthful.
   We know that there was a track, a doc, and a rolestop in the game; the only word we have of the other two comes from nom. Who's to say there was even an info-giving PT in the first place?
   
6. The game would become nightless on D3, but every extra PT would delay this by one phase.
   There is no evidence nom's claim is truthful.
   We know that the game in 3p lylo is nightless now, which supports that the mechanic exists; there's no proof that it works
   in the way nom described it as working
   .

All of these things are things that

nom claimed, but cannot prove

.
All of these things are things that

nom can lie about, and we'd have no way of knowing nom was lying

.

Tell me I'm fucking wrong.
That there is an objective way to prove that everything nom claims is true.

All the evidence of nom being conftown...comes from nom's word, nom's mouth, nom's information. It's a self-feeding loop. "I'm town because of this information I gave; you can trust this information I gave to be true because I am town". Circular logic.

Yes, nom claimed that their PT was an information--why does there need to be an information PT when Porkens was already Informed? Why does there need to be an information PT when scum already have factional knowledge? Why couldn't it be a PT for, say, a voyeur? A follower? A jailkeeper? A roleblocker? All of those are PTs which we could have had but which we didn't have. And for that matter...why couldn't it have just been the watcher PT that nom claimed existed?

Yes, there is a proven nightless mechanic--why does it need to have been triggered by there being an extra PT? Why not, sayyyy, being triggered after the night phase the first scum was lynched? (So if a scum were lynched D1, nightless D2 onwards but scum still having a N1; if scum were lynched D2, nightless on D3 but still having a N2.

But let's say that nom didn't lie--that there was in fact an extra PT. Why does that PT need to have been between nom and Chito and Nuko? nom, as scum with Chito and Nuko,

has a scum PT with Chito and Nuko in which they can fake town interactions

. Even then, when nom and Chito and Nuko 'paraphrased' the content of their PT, they kept it incredibly vague. Between the two of them, you have less than three paragraphs describing the contents of that alleged PT.

Why couldn't that extra PT have been CheekyTeeky-nom, with nom simply lying once CheekyTeeky was confirmed dead after the nightkill?

I still want to figure out why she would have taken us two to lylo.

I fucking wouldn't have!

Because the obvious thing to do seems to be take Nom to a watch PT, kill nom, and steer me to a chutes mislynch.

Exactly! So why the fuck would scumastina not take the fucking easy win? Why the fuck would scumastina throw the fucking game and remove the ONE FUCKING VIABLE MISLYNCH LEFT IN THE GAME.

She wouldn't have because I'm fucking town.

[mastina]

I mean I'll be honest, I don't really know what's going through her head either but she literally entered today declaring she was conftown and wanted to take the hammer, even going as far as to come up with "I could be venge and otter is cautious scum"/"Otter is scum slowrolling" for a reason for you to be scum when voting her, when it doesn't actually fit the setup.

Of course it doesn't fit the setup, but my point was that LuckyOtter as scum wouldn't

know

it wouldn't fit the setup.

My point wasn't fearmongering of "hey I haven't proven that I'm a vanilla townie, so you should fear hammering me, nyeh nyeh".
My point was that LuckyOtter, as scum, had no way of knowing I was a vanilla townie, and if I wasn't a vanilla townie, there'd be the risk I was a vengeful townie, a supersaint, or the definition of a bomb that blows up and kills the hammerer if lynched (which is a supersaint under a different name butstill). All of those were possibilities that a scum-LuckyOtter would've needed to be fucking stupid to not consider. Especially since the difference in play between a vanilla townie and a vengeful townie is basically nil, even in a properly played lylo.

And, yes. That did seem more likely to me than LuckyOtter being town, by a 5% margin. Because at the time?

LuckyOtter's posts looked slimey. Still fucking do. His posts looked sketchy. He also has a scum profile that fits as being cautious. He is someone who, as scum, I would expect to be methodical. He is someone who, as scum, I would expect to take things slowly, to minimize the risk of losing by any surprises. He is someone who I'd expect to slow-roll a game as scum to make sure that when he votes, victory is absolutely secured with no chance of defeat at all.

Your posts looked like impulsive town. Manipulative. Delusional. But still town.

It was only 5% because yes I realize that most scum do just fucking hammer and yes I know my profiles can be wrong on players. (I'm not after all a scumhunting god and via having already been guaranteed to have gotten it wrong in the form of both of you being fucking townreads, it's not out of the question my impression of LuckyOtter's scumgame is way off the mark. Even though I really don't think it is?) The lack of a hammer was good reason to think he was town. But literally the only thing town about him WAS the lack of a hammer.

Literally the only thing which I thought looked good was him not instahammering me. All the rest of his posts just looked like scum sitting back and enjoying the show. He had one thing, admittedly a big thing, but still ONLY one thing, making me town...and I had good reason to doubt that one thing was proof he was town.

I'm still not fucking convinced that he's town, either.

I think you're scum enough to vote you now, yes, because of the contradiction in perspective from you when you're fucking pushing me for things you should know from your own alleged information don't hold water. But I'm still like 20% thinking my vote was gamethrowing. Because his posts are just that not good.

[mastina]

Like there has to be something wrong here

Yes. There has to be something wrong here with the idea that scumastina fucking confscumed herself by fucking nightkilling her only real mislynch.

That might have something to do with the fact that this. isn't. fucking. scumastina.

[mastina]

Well, yeah, that's obvious, so why did it take you so long to vote me?

Because town voting town is a fucking thing in lylo.

And why did you do it while misrepping my statements lol?

Saying I misrepped your statements is, itself, misrepping

my

statement; there was no misrep in that post.

[mastina]

the winner of the kodak moment award basically made fun of a wall of text you wrote about you being so good at this game and writing the same thing as you are writing here while showcasing cases where you were lynched and scum.

Tangent: the examples referenced proved my point, not his.
One of the scumgames referenced?

I wasn't a player in.

I never posted once in that game. It was purely 100% an erroneous listing.
Another scumgame referenced?

I had replaced out of.

I was out of the game at the time I was lynched.
A third game?

Proved my point

; I never said I never got lynched as scum. I said that as scum when I go down it's almost always at or near lylo...and the game linked? Day before lylo, SUPPORTING my point, not disproving it.

But I digress.

[mastina]

the thing is that this lylo is the result of someone's insanity and whoever the scum here was a little bit too high on crack.
And honestly I'm sorry to say but you fill the bill a bit too well friend.

Except every fucking scumgame of mine ever proves that as scum I'm the polar fucking opposite of "high on crack".

I never make fucking insane plays as scum.

I've linked to my scumgames.

Find. one. fucking. insane. play. in. any. of. them.

You won't because they don't fucking exist.

The closest you'll find is me openly claiming scum when I had a cop guilty on my slot and KNEW I had a cop guilty on my slot so I did the one thing I knew would discredit the cop (which led to that cop not being believed and almost mislynched!). Which wasn't an insane play; it was a fucking perfect read of the situation, correctly identifying the cop guilty and correctly devising on the spot the ONE counterplay that would ensure the cop wasn't seen as conftown after said guilty. Smart play != insane play and that was as smart of a play as humanly possible; there was literally no more perfect maneuver to make there.

(Incidentally. That sort of play? Similar shit I pulled on Mephistophanes. Nancy has PTSD from that game because I hard-framed her as my scumbuddy with my roleclaim. I used the scum-exclusive knowledge as a half-realclaim, and I knew that Mephistophanes would back me up on it because I knew Mephistophanes would know the info I claimed was legitimate. Good times, good times. But again, I digress.)

[mastina]

Tell me I'm fucking wrong.
That there is an objective way to prove that everything nom claims is true.

But let's say that nom didn't lie--that there was in fact an extra PT. Why does that PT need to have been between nom and Chito and Nuko? nom, as scum with Chito and Nuko,

has a scum PT with Chito and Nuko in which they can fake town interactions

. Even then, when nom and Chito and Nuko 'paraphrased' the content of their PT, they kept it incredibly vague. Between the two of them, you have less than three paragraphs describing the contents of that alleged PT.

Why couldn't that extra PT have been CheekyTeeky-nom, with nom simply lying once CheekyTeeky was confirmed dead after the nightkill?

Speaking of this.

I wanted to come back to this and show them their paraphrase.

Contrast my paraphrase of the PT, timestamps and content and all, with this:

I thought he was pretty obviously bullshitting me in the PT so I targeted myself with the action while he targeted Chutes. I won the roll, so I received that information. It's information about the PT mechanics of this game. I'll extrapolate in a little bit.

I got put in a PT with nom last Night, and we had to decide collectively who give some unknown information to.
Based on what happened in the PT I suspect that nom/Chtues are buddies but I plan to do a hard reset today

Basically I asked him what he wanted to do and he said that he was the least likely to be nightkilled and that's why he wanted to give the info to Chutes. He also said that the vengekill was "to ensure that urap was never getting nightkilled tonight" which sounded like absolute moonlogic. I basically stopped listening there because it implied no reads whatsoever and I couldn't see that kind of shit coming from something else than a scum mindset, because that prediction sounded pretty out there imo. That's pretty much what happened in the PT.

With that thought in mind it seemed most likely that he was trying to give the information to his scum partner and drown it, which lead me to believe coming in today alongside the info I received that the pair was C/N-Chutes. And I still believe it's a strong possibility in case I am wrong about Mastina. F3 is not going to be easy methinks.

This is literally the extent of what was said on the subject.

What time did this discussion happen?

What account was the posts made under?

Was a hydra partner mentioned/referenced?

What posts did NOM make in there?

How many posts were in the PT?

There's no details there and the few which are there, could be straight from the scum PT.

It's entirely possible that a PT was created earlier with Porky, right?

Unrelated, but interesting tidbit from nom's iso; nom themselves acknowledges that there could be other PTs made right fucking here.

I'm just trying to think who the partner is rn because whenever we end today scums should be making a watch PT and kill the person that was put in the hood with them and then we are going to end with a rocky F3.

nom set up for the scenario of "mastina is scum who killed the other member of the PT" here.
nom was setting up for today. nom was setting the groundwork for a D4 lylo. nom was laying down the suspicion yesterday for follow-through today.

[mastina]

I'm really flattered you think I am this good as scum to come up with the idea of lying about being put in a PT, or implying I could create a new mechanic on the fly without sweating at all. But the thing is that it's not what happened.

Those things aren't necessary.
Lying about who you were in a PT with is doable.
The others are ideas that you might not come up with on your own but are perfectly able to cook up with the aide of both BNL and Krazy, two players who as scum are going to be able to come up with ideas like that. You need not mastermind a plot to partake in one.

Because if I really am scum here there is no reason to make up anything.

And yet you think I made up things when I have even more fucking reason to not make up anything.

town!mastina and town!chutes were already at each other's throats and I just had to nightkill otter. But that didn't happen.

Problem with that.
Putting town!me and town!Parachutes in the same PT means that you don't know if we're protecting LuckyOtter--and I

had already been on record as previously protecting LuckyOtter

.

As scum you had EVERY reason to suspect I'd be protecting LuckyOtter last night.

This also explains why no watcher, why it was the rolestopper.

If you killed LuckyOtter and there was a guilty on you, then you blow that 1v1 between Parachutes and I.

All it comes down to really is analyzing what was done this game, and all the facts point at you even if we remove everything about PTs.

Yes.
Analyzing the game.
And what was fucking done.
Points to me being town on literally every fucking metric especially disregarding the PTs.

What makes you town besides your claim to have been in a PT with scum?
Name. one. thing.

What makes me town besides my claim to have been in the rolestop PT with LuckyOtter, seeing LuckyOtter self-protecting, and LuckyOtter having died?
You fucking ranted at me that I was giving reasons for that shit instead of other things so I've given plenty.

[mastina]

Because there IS a guarantee that there was a PT made:

That's a misrep.

I never said no PT was made, I said that the PT didn't have to be a rolestopping one. Nuance.

And why did you do it while misrepping my statements lol?

Saying I misrepped your statements is, itself, misrepping

my

statement; there was no misrep in that post.

[mastina]

Honestly I just think you were scared of losing that 1v1 against chutes so you tried something really unhinged instead and see where that leads you.

Me?

Lose a fucking 1v1.

Against.

Of all fucking people.

PARACHUTES?



Yeah no.

[mastina]

I mean if we come down to it, nightkilling the person you were going to 1v1 is not that insane of an idea if you know you're going to lose against the guy.

Yeah.
"if" I'd lose.

Against fucking Parachutes.

[mastina]

you basically accepted those as gospel yesterday

Yes because you were my strongest townread and I was dead-certain the scumteam was C/N-Parachutes.

Why the fuck would I doubt the info when I thought you were town?

Of course I fucking believed the information, I had no reason NOT to believe the information.

I had no reason to think you were scum.

I had no reason to think LuckyOtter was scum.

The game was solved; it was Chito and Nuko-Parachutes.

you made a gambit that failed to acknowledge that mechanics

Two can play that mechanics game; you're failing to at all acknowledge ANY of my points in regards to rolestop play, watcher play, and nightkill play because you fucking know I'm right, that the kill on Parachutes when Parachutes was self-protecting until literally last minute proves that I didn't fucking kill Parachutes.

The HARD fact is.

Parachutes self-protected.
Parachutes did so until near deadline.
I didn't see it until after deadline.
So I wouldn't have known until too late that I COULD kill Parachutes, as scum.

You on the other hand would have NO clue Parachutes was self-protecting.

That I was in the fucking PT. And this fact is fucking proven. Is mechanical fucking proof that I am town.

[mastina]

And trust me, I don't need to look at your scum games to tell you that there must be a sparkle of insanity in scum!mastina too.

AKA, you looked but couldn't find it.

Because it doesn't fucking exist.

One iota of research would fucking prove it doesn't exist.

scum!mastina is not this untouchable unlynchable impossible-to-argue-against perfect and calculated figure.

Of course she's not untouchable or unlynchable or impossible to argue against. It's just that she is perfectly calculated so that if she is touched and if she is lynched it's because she felt it was her best shot at giving her team an endgame. A signature scumastina move at this point is to lynch myself actually and via that self-lynch, set my scumbuddies up for long-term success.

But that self-lynch isn't insanity; it's calculated risk-reward. Low risk from my lynch (because I self-lynch as disposable roles that are not critical), high reward in it putting my scumbuddies in a position where they have a strong angle to win the game via the misleading interactions I dropped. scumastina who self-lynches planned on being lynched and planned on that lynch being as misleading as was possible and planned on that lynch giving the town as much "false information" as is possible.

There's no fucking definition where that becomes insane. It's something which any smart scum player pulls off. You don't want to die as scum, but if you think there's a fair chance that no matter how skilled you are as scum that you'll die anyway...you set your scumbuddies up so that after your death, town is chasing after town, not scum. You create the interactions most favorable to furthering the scum wincon.

So basically: she IS a perfect calculated figure. My worst games were ones where my own team WENT AGAINST WHAT I PLANNED. When my own fucking team WENT AGAINST MY CALCULATIONS. My worst scumgames were games where I had a plan and THEY DIDN'T FOLLOW IT. (At least not as intended.)

And my track record shows as much.
My worst scumgames I can point you to the exact fucking problem my scumbuddies made that contributed to it being a sub-par game and line out what I had in mind that they sabotaged.
Any scumgame where my scumbuddies didn't go against my plan, was usually a good fucking scumgame.
The closest to an exception to this is FakeGod's game, but that game had an OP role that got two, three, guilties on a three-man scumteam. Also the town quicklynched most days before I could post, so. Not exactly my fault I couldn't play that game because it was fucking locked by the time I was around. (Basically, town quicklynch = I can't post during the day, town guilties on basically whole scumteam = I couldn't manipulate the game. That was just a game I couldn't possibly win given that combo.) Even then that game wasn't bad, per se, so much as it was "not really even a game" because if you can't fucking post, you can't fucking claim you played the game, now, can you? But I digress.

POINT BEING.

I don't fucking make mistakes as scum. My scumteams do. (And we often lose as a consequence of those.) I don't. I don't necessarily

win

, mind you, even when I have a game with no mistakes. MBoS1 is a good example; I couldn't have played that game better, but we still lost in 3p lylo. We lost it because my scumbuddy got lynched then in 3p lylo, but I KNEW we were going to lose that game because my plan gave us a like 5-10% chance of winning a game that by all rights on D1 was basically unwinnable.

[mastina]

If that was really my plan do you really think I would point at that possibility casually?

Yes, because scum smart play is to set up the next day.

If you're going to bus on D3.

You need to have set up a viable D4 victory path.

If you randomly show up out of nowhere with some never-before-established, never-before-seen stance...nobody's going to fucking believe you. (Case and point: why the town will fucking lose this game because in spite of my fucking effort I don't think I'll actually win this engagement because LuckyOtter won't value my meta even though he really fucking needs to. I showed up with a never-before-established, never-before-seen stance. If it wasn't *me*, if the person who had my stances was somerandomscummer, I'd not believe them, so.)

So any scum player worth a damn.

Sets their fucking lylo up.

By laying the groundwork.
By laying stances to hold on the next day.

You think I'm a suicidal player?

I turn this question back on you. When Parachutes is my only fucking mislynch here if I'm scum, do you think *I* am fucking suicidal enough to then REMOVE that mislynch and leave me no fucking options?

Apparently you do in spite of all evidence to the contrary.

[mastina]

This is literally the extent of what was said on the subject.

What time did this discussion happen?

What account was the posts made under?

Was a hydra partner mentioned/referenced?

What posts did NOM make in there?

How many posts were in the PT?

There's no details there and the few which are there, could be straight from the scum PT.

That makes no difference.

It makes every fucking difference. I fucking provided the details.
You can't.
Because your details are fucking faked; mine are not.

I can even give a comparison for contrast.
Would you like me to paraphrase the doctor PT? I can do it identically.
Would you like me to paraphrase the tracker PT? I can do it identically.
In fact I'd planned on doing precisely that D2 before it was cut short, and D3 to prove it existed when you doubted its existence. You thought LuckyOtter-mastina was possible and I wanted to paraphrase the PT to prove it wasn't, but the thread was fucking locked before I could. I would've done so in the internship PT...if I wasn't in there with my largest fucking scumspect who I thought was confscum.

Logically speaking the amount of details given doesn't matter at all given that you have 2 days to come up with them, doctor them, change them at will, make sure it fits a narrative, etc.

Oh then you should have no trouble providing them!

Why don't you?

There's no point sharing those details unless someone asks for them.

And I'm asking for them now.

[mastina]

Problem with that.
Putting town!me and town!Parachutes in the same PT means that you don't know if we're protecting LuckyOtter--and I had already been on record as previously protecting LuckyOtter.

As scum you had EVERY reason to suspect I'd be protecting LuckyOtter last night.

This also explains why no watcher, why it was the rolestopper.

If you killed LuckyOtter and there was a guilty on you, then you blow that 1v1 between Parachutes and I.

Occam's razor implies that if a scenario makes no sense with me being scum then it simply means I am not scum, instead of assuming I am scum and fitting a narrative that loosely fits, which is what you're doing.

Occam's razor is that the simpler explanation is usually the correct one. I fucking love using occam's razor so I won't fucking stand for you misusing the term.

Which is simpler?
I am scum, who went for the wifom play of killing the player who was in the same PT as me, knowing that they were self-protecting, hoping to win the 50/50, in spite of said player in the PT being the most scumread player in the game, and in spite of me scumreading that player, all for the HOPE that it'd be wifom enough to not be lynched...

...Or that I'm town telling the truth and scum killed Parachutes because they didn't have a way of knowing that LuckyOtter wasn't being protected?

One of those is far fucking simpler than the other and yet you insist on the former.

Which is simpler?
You are scum who lied about having a PT with scum...

...Or you are town, who happened to be in a PT with scum, and happened to not be the nightkill, and who happened to suspect me, and happened to be left alive, and happened to convey a lot of critical setup information?

One of those is far fucking simpler than the other and yet you insist on the latter.

[mastina]

It's okay you're still going to lose so it doesn't change much.

Oh no doubt.

But because my win isn't fucking dependent on one other player (well two if you count both heads) and is instead on the backs of seven other players (well eight if you count both heads), I'm obligated to try.

I don't expect to succeed, because again.

I know I am verbose.

I know I write a lot.

I know I play in a lot of games.

I know I say a ton of shit.

I know LuckyOtter doesn't have the time to sift through it even remotely properly.

I know that if he did he'd know I was town but I also know that because he doesn't he has no way of knowing I'm town.
So I know I'm going to lose.
That doesn't mean I have to take it fucking lying down when you gave a fucking chance at winning the game with the Parachutes nightkill and a fucking CHANCE that the dead don't blame me for the loss.

Like.
Again.
Was 100% planning on instavoting Parachutes here no questions asked. The moment day started was planning on it. That would've been a town loss. And the town would, justifiably, have blamed me for it. It'd have been my fault for having gamethrown by not having taken time to consider Parachutes as scum. It'd have been my fault for having blindly accepted that Parachutes's posts were scum when they weren't in spite of everything I thought.

But because Parachutes was the nightkill.

Suddenly I didn't gamethrow in lylo.
Suddenly I didn't cast an instant game-losing vote.
Suddenly I didn't just hand scum over the win.

And because the Parachutes kill prevented me from handing scum a free win.
That gives me fucking HOPE of a town win.
It's soul-crushing knowing that hope's not going to be realized.
It's terrible to know that in spite of that sliver of a chance at victory from the Parachutes nightkill causing me to not instavote town, that town still probably loses.
It's incredibly sad that in spite of having the chance for town to win I know we won't.

But I have to fucking try because we went from having a 0% chance at winning thanks to my instavote-Parachutes plan, to having a 1% chance at winning.
I went from being the person the town would justifiably 100% blame for the town loss to being the person the town has to root for and places faith in.

I owe it to the dead to try. I know I'll fail because town-mastina has been mislynched in almost every single fucking game this year or came dangerously close; even the games I survived, I was run up to L-1 in. And one game I avoided being the mislynch only by virtue of eating a VIG kill. Not scum nightkill, town vig kill.

I'm an ass as town.
Being an ass makes you no allies.
People like it when players are nice.
People like niceness.
And I'm not nice.

And push come to shove.
Given the choice between two equal players, even if only a subconscious bias, town players will side with the nice player over the asshole player because they don't like the asshole and don't want to reward the toxic behavior no matter how much it spewed them town.
And you're being nice nom whereas I've been enough of an asshole to eat a fucking mod warning.

I expect to lose but because the dead town are relying on me to win I need to fucking try which is why I'm pulling a borderline all-nighter in spite of me having needed to go to bed at least an hour and a half ago. (I think? I miiiiiight be supposed to get up at 10 and it's 5:30 now.)

I'm neglecting my other games to be here because I know that if I'm not here, we go from having a 1% chance of winning back to the absolute 0%.

Because I fucking CARE even though I'm an asshole. Wouldn't call me a Jerk With A Heart Of Gold because that implies there's heart and gold to be had when none exist, but being a Jerk with a heart of Jerk doesn't mean I can't fucking care. I don't even fucking care about winning or losing games regardless of my alignment anymore. I don't give up, I still try, I still fight, but I just. legitimately. genuinely. don't care about wins or losses. They're irrelevant to me.

But when I am town, I'm obligated to give everything because if I lose, then it's not just me who loses. I don't take an ego hit. I don't take a blow to my pride. I DO let the entire town that was relying on me to win down. I DO fail them. I DO make those players who were relying on me to not fuck up, end up feeling disappointed because what I did wasn't good enough, was enough where everyone on the town lost even if they thought scum didn't deserve to win.

Which mind you I'm not even sure they do.

Porkens might've called nom scum at points but was nom a strong scumread? Fucked if I know.
CheekyTeeky definitely called nom scum at points, but did CheekyTeeky think nom was scum when she died? Fucked if I know.
But the vast majority of players would probably look at nom's performance and go "yeah nom earned the win here, they deserve to win". Myself included. It's just that.

I have to try because no matter how much nom might've earned the win, no matter how much nom might deserve to win. Nom is still fucking scum and nom winning means seven(/eight if including the hydra head) players lose the game when at least half of them deserved not to. Porkens doesn't deserve to lose. CheekyTeeky deserves to win and I PARTICULARLY fucking owe her the win. I PARTICULARLY fucking owe her the fight.

Fuck a good 70% of why I want to fight this is because of her; I wronged her and while I can't undo the wrong, actually turning this game into a win would potentially allow it to at least not be as bad of a wrong. (And one of the things that I'm despairing is wondering what CheekyTeeky thinks. She knows I'm town, but does she even WANT me to win in spite of knowing that I'm the only hope SHE wins?)

[mastina]

AKA, you looked but couldn't find it.

I already have trouble reading all your walls and otter is probably going to cry when seeing the number of pages when he wakes up lol, what makes you think I want to check more games like that? No thanks. You have like 10 years on this site dude. Just saying.

Yeah and I linked to all of my scumgames in the last five years.

Did you forget?

Here they are again!

I can prove this with a compiled list of all my scumgames. Made one a while back and since it's been literally a fucking year since I drew scum the last compilation of it still holds true. Subject: Anime U-Pick: King Size [SEASON FINALE...?]

Spoiler: Extensive list of scumgames last five years

mystery box of silver
more songs
A Story Revisited
Minuet's Trio
Turn of Camn
XP Mafia
Organization XIII
Inventions Mafia
Newbie 1814
WWF Mafia
The Mystery At King's Landing
Civilization Mafia
Green Day UPick
Star Wars Rogue One
UNI MUM
Disney Villain
Inorganic Chemistry
molliegeddon
World of Mafiacraft
Newbie 1465
NY 172
Paranoia
Book of Shadows
Attack on Titan
Left 4 Dead
Micro 264
Micro 242
Micro 241
Micro 226
Mini 1530
Theater Season Mafia
Micro 195
Newbie 1378
Anything Goes
Shadows and Lights
The Walking Dead
Void Mountain Nightless
Buzzword Bingo
Micro 116
The Mind Reader
Playing With Fire
/in-vitational 15
Politics Mafia
Discworld Mafia

There maaaaaay be a mini normal or two not included, all alts are excluded, any hydra I didn't post on my main is excluded, but this is a pretty extensive list of my scumgames.

Feel free to peruse them all you'd like.
But you'll find exactly what I fucking said.

[mastina]

I turn this question back on you. When Parachutes is my only fucking mislynch here if I'm scum, do you think *I* am fucking suicidal enough to then REMOVE that mislynch and leave me no fucking options?

Yes I do.

And yet I have ten fucking years establishing a lack of suicidal play as scum.

I think that you were genuinely scared of losing that 1v1 against chutes

Why?
Give me one reason that I'd have lost it.
I can give you several for why I'd fucking win it.

I am fairly sure that if I was to dig for days and days, I would find outliers to the examples you gave me.

Feel free to try!

After all.

We have the time!

Deadline's not FOR days.

So you could indeed try to peruse to find some examples.

You wouldn't though because what I fucking said about my scumplay is true because it's what my fucking scumplay is and will always be.

[mastina]

Also I don't know about you but I don't really recall what I was doing last week or whatever so again, providing this info is virtually useless. What do you want, timestamps? Isn't this kind of against the rules anyway? I can detail what happened in the PT, sure, but this is just straight up stupid.

Your refusal is further evidence that you can't fucking deliver, so.

Feel free to continue refusing.

[mastina]

when it's proven that there is no logical benefit to it

There IS logical benefit to it.

We both have mechanical reasons suggesting we are town, but which are based on information that only we have claimed.

One of us is town telling the truth; the other is scum lying about the mechanical reason suggesting we are town.

The one who can prove they are telling the truth is town.

Logic.

[mastina]

Also, going to go to sleep now.

[mastina]

I don't think any more back and forth between you two is going to be helpful.
I really don't often base my play on meta because I know I personally play differently in different games, not in function of my role.

Would it help if I did NKA for you and showed you where Porkens and CheekyTeeky both held suspicion?

But because mastina is making such a big deal of it I'm going to have to sift through her meta at least some. If there's any evidence of a similar scum game (nom, you alluded that there might), then I largely ignore it.

By the way, I gave you lots of scumgames but not really many towngames. Reading just scumgames of mine will give you a one-sided portrayal of my playstyle so let me know if you need some town examples beyond what I've linked.

And speaking of linked towngames, a towngame running contemporary to this one? This game right here. Notably, due to a game mechanic, I kept giving game content after my mislynch. The topic's public, so you can read my contributions there, too.

[mastina]

Fuck me I misremembered Porkens's content; I thought he scumread nom but apparently he scumread CheekyTeeky, not nom.

I could point out TECHNICALITIES. Like how,

Mastina tris
nomnomnom Lost Ghosts

Chito and Nuko (Krazy + singletonking)
Parachutes (u r a person 2 + pytdarque)

LuckyOtter

CheekyTeeky

apthet
GeminiTwin12

This, albeit not the most helpful because I'm only one slot higher than nom but it's more than nothing. Or how he said:

I think this is town Mastina.

...But really there's nothing in his stances to resolve the 1v1.

When it comes to Cheeky...

VOTE: Nomnomnom

VOTE: nomnomnom

These were among her last posts. But I recalled her going strongly against nom D1, yet all I can find there is:

VOTE: nomnomnom
You know you're in trouble when I use your full name.

I thought there was much much more than that.

So not as helpful as I thought.

I misremembered what their stances were.

[mastina]

This really is a game of pocketing otter until the very end.

You keep saying that narrative.

And yet the facts prove otherwise.

Pocketing LuckyOtter would've been nightkilling you.
Pocketing LuckyOtter would've been, if choosing not to nightkill you, voting you or at least calling you the player more likely to be scum.
Pocketing LuckyOtter would've been voting out of the gate and trusting him to be town.

I called him scum.

Kinda...literally the fucking opposite of pocketing.
If I was trying to pocket LuckyOtter, why was he the person I thought was scum?

[mastina]

Did you, ever?

You apparently have short-term memory loss considering the times you hounded at me for positing that he was slow-rolling scum.
I think the D4 thread is fairly unambiguous with me calling him scum, yes.

[mastina]

In fact, C&N votes nom in 444

just

as Porkens leaves the ap wagon (which was at L-1), putting the VC at 3 for apthet and 2 for nom. The ap lynch is nowhere near guaranteed at this point, so this puts nom in a dangerous position (cheeky could very easily swing back to voting nom at this point). That's a bizarro move for a scumpartner. Obviously there is some hard bussing happening later in this game but

this

doesn't at all feel like the right moment to do it. C&N left a very wide lynch pool open that easily would have let them put a second vote on gemini.

I'd like to present a counterargument:
Chito and Nuko was comprised of two heads that have played with me before extensively; Krazy and BulletNLynchproof.

Both of them know that when I get into a hard tunnel, I push it and I push it

hard

.
I was pushing really really REALLY hard on apthet and my alternative lynch was Gemini.

nom was never in danger. There wasn't enough support for nom; I was hard, hard, HARD defending nom on D1 and hard, hard, HARD pushing apthet/Gemini. Both heads would know this and know that when I get into that mode of absolute conviction I am a strong presence, a strong force, strong enough of one where I would be enough to dissuade a lynch on nom D1.

Porkens has also played with me and to some extent, trusts in my competency. So even if Porkens would've wanted to go onto nom, there wasn't the necessary support. Sure, CheekyTeeky might vote for nom, but even with Chito and Nuko also voting for nom, who else votes for nom? Do you? There wasn't any risk of nom being lynched--which makes it the

perfect

time to vote nom; it's distancing without hard-bussing.

[mastina]

Alternatively, could you ELI5 why I'm so wrong about nom's alignment?

Where would I begin? Nom replaced Lost Ghosts. 28 was an incredibly natural entrance into the game--fluid and organic, with no trace of being scum that are stilted. 145 felt genuine scumhunting matching the type of thought I'd expect ClearlyClarity to have as town. I also have a VERY good idea of what 147 was referring to, which would make me EVEN FURTHER inclined to trust that ClearlyClarity was town, because it's not something I'd expect her to reference if she were scum.

Then there's how this is pretty much just nom's towngame. Compare: this is nom as scum.
This is nom as town.

The difference between the two is night and day, and this is the latter not the former.

There's also where nom is pushing; nom's pushes have been on players that, with the exception of apthet, go against the grain of others. nom as scum kinda went with the flow by and large and avoided confrontration, whereas nom as town lives in those "fuck what the town says, I'm doing my own thing" moments. The reasons, the logic, the everything, comes from a town nom here.

The slot can't get any more town than it has already.

Well this didn't age well. I guess it fits a narrative in which town!Mastina, D4, is legitimately not sure Nom is scum even after getting voted (I mean that's still weird, but it's not impossible for town!Mastina to be so confident in her reads that she choses to believe a wackadoodle scenario like I'm slowrolling her over considering that she totally misread and got played by nom)

Speaking of that post...the game which I was pretty sure I knew where it was coming from just ended.

147 was something I felt was in reference to this game here. Where both tris and ClearlyClarity were players. That message was posted on May 25th. By that point, there were 47 pages in the game--check out stances on players in regards to tris at that point in time. Since I knew that ClearlyClarity was town that game, I thought that it was reflecting on her being town this game referencing that game.

[mastina]

(Incidentally the tris replacement happened around the same time in both games. Also worthy of note, ClearlyClarity replaced out of this game but stayed in that game.)

[mastina]

Pretty standard thing to do if you ask me, and that's definitely a thing you would do with someone you're at ease with, which you seem to be with both heads in that hydra.

It sure is a standard thing to do, but make up your mind:
Am I a standard scum player, or an insane scum player?
You can't have it both ways.

[mastina]

Yo, LuckyOtter, it occurs to me that I should paraphrase the tracker pt since you don't have access to it.
I'm at work, so I can't now, and my own V/LA might mean that I can't for a while, but I should be able to squeeze it in before yours ends.

[mastina]

I'm sick so I maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyy not be able to deliver, but I'll TRY to do the paraphrase tomorrow.

[mastina]

At work right now, so still no paraphrase, but what I CAN do, is give content like this, which cuts down on what I need to do later.

LuckyOtter, the reason I emphasize meta so much is because it is literally the most important tool in my arsenal regardless of my alignment but ESPECIALLY as town.

I can tell you that if you replaced out and your replacement was a player who's familiar with me, they'd instavote nom because I am that far outside my scumrange.
Creature. Firebringer. Ginngie. Alisae. Ankamius. You name any scummer who's played with me, and they'd be able to tell you why I am town here.

Which is why meta is so important to me. My meta proves that I am town, here, and it is literally my best self defense tool.

I don't really have competency in non meta defense of myself because my meta is so damn apparent, it's literally the best tool for me to use.

I can even sum it up by using three words per meta:
scumastina is Meticulous, Mechanical, and Methodical.
Town me is Whimsical, Chaotic, and Insane.

If you believe that, check out which applies to this game better.
If you don't? Go check out literally any towngame and literally any scumgame. You'll quickly see for YOURSELF that the pattern I described holds true.

Calculated, precise maneuvers as scum where the outcomes were predicted and accounted for, with me having the perfect counter, the perfect answer, to what the town had.
Utter randomness which makes absolutely no sense and is irrational to the extreme, as town.

You will also find that as scum I TEND to be nice to the players I intend to manipulate/pocket; I white knight mislynch bait and push players widely townread.
As town I TEND to be an asshole, flinging insults left and right, with the attitude that mislynch bait can still rand scum.

I don't call those lock indicators, though, because unlike the holy 3, I CAN diverge from them, even though they TEND to be true.

More later, out of time now.

[mastina]

At work right now, so still no paraphrase, but what I CAN do, is give content like this, which cuts down on what I need to do later.

LuckyOtter, the reason I emphasize meta so much is because it is literally the most important tool in my arsenal regardless of my alignment but ESPECIALLY as town.

I can tell you that if you replaced out and your replacement was a player who's familiar with me, they'd instavote nom because I am that far outside my scumrange.
Creature. Firebringer. Ginngie. Alisae. Ankamius. You name any scummer who's played with me, and they'd be able to tell you why I am town here.

Which is why meta is so important to me. My meta proves that I am town, here, and it is literally my best self defense tool.

I don't really have competency in non meta defense of myself because my meta is so damn apparent, it's literally the best tool for me to use.

I can even sum it up by using three words per meta:
scumastina is Meticulous, Mechanical, and Methodical.
Town me is Whimsical, Chaotic, and Insane.

If you believe that, check out which applies to this game better.
If you don't? Go check out literally any towngame and literally any scumgame. You'll quickly see for YOURSELF that the pattern I described holds true.

Calculated, precise maneuvers as scum where the outcomes were predicted and accounted for, with me having the perfect counter, the perfect answer, to what the town had.
Utter randomness which makes absolutely no sense and is irrational to the extreme, as town.

You will also find that as scum I TEND to be nice to the players I intend to manipulate/pocket; I white knight mislynch bait and push players widely townread.
As town I TEND to be an asshole, flinging insults left and right, with the attitude that mislynch bait can still rand scum.

I don't call those lock indicators, though, because unlike the holy 3, I CAN diverge from them, even though they TEND to be true.

More later, out of time now.

I'd like to start out with a slight correction: I DO have ONE form of non meta defense--
Mechanics/role based defense.

I can say with no ego that I am one of the top 5 moderators of mafiascum right now. (For the record, the other 4 are Varsoon, Krazy, Alisae, and RadiantCowbells.) In terms of setup creativity and mechanics and role design I am almost unrivaled.

I am a prominent NRG member. I review a TON of games and design quite a number, too.

I also PLAY in games moderated by solid setup design mods, like schadd games. Plus review ones that I wasn't in.

So when I have a role or mechanic which proves that I am town.
I know it, can press it, and maximize the mileage from it, often turning my role/the mechanic into something more OP than the mod intended.

And here? I have that.
I KNOW that the fact that the two mislynch candidates were put in the rolestop internship and one was nightkilled PROVES scum were OUTSIDE the PT and didn't know who was being protected. Doubly so, because of the Parachutes self protect proving that I would know not to nightkill them.

…The problem is.
Nom ALSO has a mechanical reason to be town.
And on mechanics alone, I CAN'T prove that my mechanical clear's truer than theirs.
Thus.
Lacking a way to definitively push the mechanical angle (though I still insist that nom's refusal to paraphrase the alleged Chito/Nuko PT is a scumclaim of that internship being nonexistent), defaulting to the one and only other tool in my arsenal; meta.

[mastina]

ON THAT NOTE.
I'd like to also give you a frame of reference:
I am autistic and suffer from bipolar disorder.

Both influence my play as both alignments, but it would not be unfair to say that my autism shows stronger in my scumgames, and my BPD shows stronger in my towngames.

Autistic individuals have the tendencies of being neurotic. We typically have a strong tie to specific traits and habits, rituals. We usually don't lie, and we usually have a deep read on things others miss, useful skills for a scum mastermind.
I am precise and calculated as scum, because of how my brain is wired.

As someone who is bipolar, I am prone to mood swings. Strong, STRONG energy and enthusiasm, but swinging into anger and abuse and general misconduct. Irresponsibility. Wildness. Impulsiveness. Traits that I show a plenty as town, but absent from my scumgame.

I am a creature of habit, and as town have bad tendencies.

But with this, need to get back to work.

[mastina]

Alright, finally paraphrasing the internship.
I have to say that apparently I was mistaken about the bcc; I THOUGHT that the N1 used it whereas all other nights didn't, but turns out it didn't; right there in the message it tells me the message was sent to both me and nom, same as on all other nights.

Post zero, you pretty much know: went through resumes, you're hired, tech interns; one of us performing a track, vote someone to track, one of us gets randomly selected 36 hours in; selected by the scum, no guarantee of being town; good luck, recommend coding talk.

That was Monday at around 6:45 pm.

At around 7:30, nom posted "what is this".

A few minutes later, schadd replied "an internship".

nom asked a couple minutes later "who's the other person".

At about 7:45, schadd said it was me.

This ninja'd my response I was typing, because it took me longer. So at about 7:50, I said:
"That'd be me.", facepalming. I then in that same post (5) said, "For full disclosure, while I've got too much stubborn pride to replace out of the game, I intend to self-vote to get out of the game.
Also, I promised it to CheekyTeeky. I said that if apthet flipped town, we'd lynch me; apthet flipped town, so I owe it to the town to lynch me.
I don't even care if it's self-hammering; the moment we get a result tomorrow I am going to do it and literally the ONLY way I don't is if we SOMEHOW manage to get a guilty.

...Which requires a successful track.
And even if the scumteam were, say, Gemini-Chito/Nuko--let's argue for a hypothetical that that's the scumteam--do we even know which of them would perform the kill? Would it be the obvious choice, Gemini, or the non-obvious choice?

Legitimately don't know.

Let's forget our scumreads (we're more or less scumreading the same people).
Assume every player is scum, for the sake of figuring out a track target.
Who, of the non-us players ^{(NOTE: SCHADD DID NOT SPECIFY THAT WE COULD TRACK ONE ANOTHER; SCHADD DID NOT SPECIFY THAT WE COULD SELF-TRACK)}, is the

most

likely to make the nightkill?

That'd be our best chance to get a guilty. You got a better idea or answer?"

At 8, nomnomnom ^{(NOTE: NOT ME AS NOMNOMNOM HAS BEEN IMPLYING)} said, "Well if everyone's got equal scum chances, I'd say LuckyOtter's the most likely given he's off the radar. It really doesn't feel like he's scum though."

Immediately after that, post 7, nom said, "Gemini's the least likely to do it unless wanting to 50/50 it. Anyone else is fair game."

And immediately after that, nom said, in response to my first post, "And RE: self voting, don't do that."

And soon after, nom said, "I still feel Gemini's scum. Chito/Nuko could be a likely partner."

That same minute, in post 10, I quoted post six, saying: "Actually, I think that's a good track believe it or not.

Otter's seen as vaguely town, but of the people seen as being town, Otter's at the bottom.

Like.

Parachutes is generally seen as slightly more town than him.
CheekyTeeky's seen as basically conftown.
You are basically conftown.
Porkens is basically seen as conftown.

Otter's just not as town as they are. Yeah, I don't think he's scum. Yes, I think he's town. But if our reads are horrifically off and he's scum? He feels like a likely candidate to do the nightkill, thus a good track. More than that...an innocent on him might not be a

hard

innocent, but it's a soft-innocent, enough of one where he might avoid a mislynch he'd otherwise eat. ^{(NOTE: I didn't specify this at the time, by my logic for this can be defined by this article on investigatives. It was written originally for cops, but I later determined it applied to ANY investigative PR. In this case, a tracker; aim for a guilty but if getting an innocent NOT likely to be nightkilled, but which would have a high impact on the game, basically. Someone not my top townread, but not my top scumread.)}

Basically, it's win-win.
We're right that he's town, we support it; we're wrong and he's scum, we likely catch him.
There IS the obvious risk we false clear him, just as there is we're right and nobody buys our innocent, but I feel like it's enough to submit a tentative:
TRACK: LuckyOtter
With the caveat that we can reconsider/change at any point."

Soon after, I quoted my post 5, and said, "Another reason not to replace out beyond stubborn pride? It's a cop-out, and I don't want a different player to inherit my fuckup. It was MINE, so *I* should inherit the consequences of it in full. They shouldn't need to be subjugated to MY mistakes when they were mine. In other words, replacing out's the coward's way out to avoid consequences of your actions and instead force a burden on both the mod and eventually the player replacing you."

At about 8:10, nom posted, "Starting to wonder. Isn't one of us getting killed tonight? Why would scum place both of us in a PT? And if so, doesn't that make it basically a 50/50 to get the result to town tomorrow?

We should probably coordinate a track target and have it be the same, so whatever happens, it's worth it." ^{(NOTE: Until nom mentioned this, I was under the impression that we needed to unanimously vote for the same player to track, and it was just that one of us would randomly be selected to get the result. I had no clue we could have different targets until nom raised the possibility here.)}

At 8:15, post 13, nom asked, "Hey, do you happen to be Informed?"

At 8:30, I quoted nom's post 12, responding: "I'd presume scum have a similar 'cannot kill the tracker' mechanism to the first game albeit more temporary.

In the first game we HAD to give out a track, the person receiving it KNEW it was from scum, and it also made them bulletproof.
Here, we're not bulletproof, but we were given a track and them giving us it was presumably compulsively done, and we know it came from scum. Kind-of removes the whole point if they can just kill us, doesn't it?

So my guess; we can't be killed tonight, but on all other nights can be.

Oh, also.

Scum killing me, if they can?
Does the town a big favor.
Scum killing you, if they can?
Eh, not doing the town a big favor, but I'd think there's better kills for them to make."

Immediately after, post 15, I quoted nom's post 13, responding, "Nope! I basically outright admitted on D1 that I'm a VT, when I had that discussion with CheekyTeeky."

At 8:45, nom said, "Yeah I figured as much, just wanted some confirmation. I'm bad at staying confident with assumptions; I tend to get paranoid in the long-run.

What do you think of a Chito/Nuko track?" (NOTE: This is incredibly scum-indicative because we know for a fact that one of me/nom was a scum tracker; we know for a fact that scum in the internships can make the nightkill; we can then infer that the scum would send the tracker to do the nightkill, i.e., that the person performing the nightkill was either nom or myself. Thus, there was ZERO chance that tracking Chito/Nuko would get a guilty...but what it WOULD have done is

soft-cleared them

, making it LESS LIKELY THEY'D GET LYNCHED. Also even IF Chito/Nuko did the kill...if their scumbuddy got the track result...they could lie, to false-clear C/N.)

At about 9, nom quoted my post 14, and said, "If that's the case...
...It makes me think a lot."

At about 10:50, nom submitted a LuckyOtter track, "I'll submit this for now".

On Tuesday, at ~2:10 pm, I responded to post 16 with critical analysis: "Objectively Chito/Nuko are a better innocent to get--not only are they better players overall, but also because they are less-townread. HOWEVER, subjectively, I feel like we're less likely to get a guilty tracking them. Remember, they were a tertiary suspect yesterday; behind Gemini and apthet, they were a primary scumspect for BOTH of us.

Scum COULD pick the players most accurate for the track and hope that in doing so we wifom our ways out of our accuracy...but if so, said scum couldn't include Krazy. BNL could do it without Krazy's input, but Krazy wouldn't do it. The reason WHY Krazy wouldn't do it, wouldn't rely on wifom, is because he knows me well enough to know that I don't wifom-second-guess my scumreads. Because he knows I don't wifom-second-guess my scumreads, he knows I'd be inclined to track either himself or Gemini. Given that, I'm not confident a scum-Chito/Nuko make the kill.

Basically...Krazy knows that I'm an obsessive compulsive tunneler. Selecting me as a tracker doesn't make me suddenly wifom my way out of my reads, having a player flip town that I was scumreading

still

doesn't shake me out of my reads, and given Krazy knows this, he knows that I'd track either Chito/Nuko or Gemini.

That doesn't mean Chito/Nuko can't perform the nightkill. It's possible this internship selection was done without consulting Krazy in spite of him being scum. Or it's possible Krazy was

that

convinced I'd track Gemini. But it DOES make it

less-likely

that a scum Chito/Nuko make the nightkill. UNLESS the scumteam is

exactly

Chito/Nuko-Gemini.

By far the safer play is for Chito/Nuko being scum with literally anyone other than Gemini, for the non-Chito/Nuko player to make the kill."

Took me until 2:15 to post the follow-through: "I feel...
If the scumteam is

exactly

Chito/Nuko-Gemini, tracking Chito/Nuko will get a guilty.
If the scumteam's

any other combination

of Chito/Nuko-someone else, tracking Chito/Nuko's guaranteed to not be a guilty.

In that sense, tracking Chito/Nuko has some utility. If an innocent, proves Chito/Nuko-Gemini's NOT the scumteam and thus that one of our townreads is wrong. If a guilty, pretty much solidifies the Chito/Nuko-Gemini theory, solidifying an autowin. ^{(NOTE: If I were the gambity player nom keeps insisting I am, the gambity play here would've been tracking Chito/Nuko and deliberately having Chito/Nuko perform the nightkill to get caught; this would "clear" both myself and nom, leading to a free Gemini mislynch on D3. But of course that didn't happen because I'm not. Thus why the Parachutes nightkill proves I'm not scum but I digress.)} So from a mechanical standpoint, objectively a Chito/Nuko track is a solid maneuver.

Yet subjectively, I feel it's banking on a very specific outcome and if we want a guilty we've got better odds elsewhere.

What do you think? Is the mechanical elimination-or-confirmation of one specific scumteam combination worth the probability of no guilty, or do we aim for a guilty because the mechanical elimination-or-confirmation of one specific scumteam isn't worth it?"

At about 3:30 pm, post 21, nom responded, "We're aiming for the better solve, yes? One option I feel like is definitely a gamble. With how you phrase it, Chito/Nuko does sound like a gambit. I dunno.

Terribly tired, need a good night of sleep on this."

At 7 pm, I quoted that, and went, "Well we're

aiming

for a guilty.
Guilties are easier to get if we have the better solve, and a guilty

leads

to a better solve, but a better solve in of itself is not what we're after. We don't need to get the exact scumteam; we need to, ideally, get a guilty...or have the innocent be a decent consolation prize."

At about 9 pm, nom responded "Okay let's do Otter then. I think that's our best shot here.

Do we announce our result, or do we come up with a code to communicate the result? I assume we don't have access to this PT after a bit, soyeah."

At about 11:20 pm, I responded, "Well the scumteam already know our role here, so not telling the town would be literally pointless. We'd be denying town which scum already know, and I don't see any reason to do that, sooo...fullclaim at daystart, yeah."

That's the first page; there's not much after that.

Just, an hour later, nom going "Okay, got it".
And then, on Wednesday at 5:15 pm, schadd doing the dice roll; 1 mastina, 2 nom, with it landing on 2.
schadd announced nom would track LuckyOtter in post 27.
And the final post, Thursday at 10:50 am, was "thanks for the unpaid labor".

That's the internship fully paraphrased.

[mastina]

Also, if you're wondering where the proof is that the tracker intern could also made the nightkill...well for one, if scum couldn't both be in the internship and kill you'd have instavoted nom because I was in the internship last night and there was a kill last night meaning that if scum couldn't kill while actioning I'd be clear but I'm NOT clear because they can.

And two, because of the disclaimer here.

7 town, 2 mafia, daytalk,

nobody is restricted to one action per night

. don't trust anybody who says they are "capable of moving very very fast."

Soyeah. The scum in the tracker PT made the nightkill N1, meaning the tracker was never getting a guilty this game.

[mastina]

Mastina directed it, and what she wanted wasn't a clear on her partner, she wanted to seem smart and be stronger in this LYLO by pocketing you and soft-clearing you. That's the plan she went with all along, and that's consistent throughout the game.

The idea that I wanted to seem smart and be stronger in lylo, is mutually exclusive with the idea that I chose to nightkill my fucking mislynch of choice/lead rival/best avenue for victory.

If I were scum I could do this, and then have it be Parachutes-LuckyOtter taken with me. Just need to have it be a Watch instead of a Rolestop, or if in fact rolestopping, rolestopping LuckyOtter.

The Parachutes nightkill runs in flagrant contradiction to this narrative; you can't both have your cake and eat it too in terms of what I'd do as scum.

[mastina]

I honestly think the nightkill is the result of putting yourself in a bad situation with that PT in one way or another. You're not telling the truth about that PT and I know it.

You're projecting because this works the other way.

I honestly think the nightkill is the result of you putting yourself in a bad situation with being outside that PT in a way you hadn't anticipated. And I know it, but only by virtue of LuckyOtter being conftown through not hammering.

[mastina]

Btw LuckyOtter, since you don't like meta, may I ask you what your stance on

tone

is?
What I'm referring to is the early parts of nom's iso this game; they are, admittedly only with the benefit of hindsight, flat. nom pushed people, but there was no "life" to the push in posts like 181, 198, 214...I'm pulling posts out of a hat basically, I could link to any of them in that spot and they'd be the same way. nom gives pushes; nom gives stances. But tonally, nom was flat, empty, stilted, stiff. Constructed.

When it comes to my early posts, prelude, everything from 472 and before is

probably

not alignment indicative and utterly null. There's game content there but it's game content that I'd give as scum, too. Let's talk about after it then. Posts like 474. 480. 488 (which had a cheeky reference, both referring to the earlier 485 and being a stealth pun; he was a pizza delivery man and the pizzas were inside

boxes

). 497.

Does it look like I genuinely believed what I was saying? Does it look like I genuinely thought I had the game solved? Yes, I was wrong, very wrong--but does it look like I

thought

I was right? Does it look like I genuinely thought that I was going to turn around the game from town chaos into a perfect town win? Because that's a thought process I fundamentally

cannot

fake as scum because there's a level of just...

purity

to it; enthusiasm, energy, passion at gamesolving, at not having all the answers but thinking you do. I can't fake that, but telling you that doesn't mean much if you can't read tone so. That's why I ask.

[mastina]

Actually, there IS a good reason to have an identifiable scum meta, even as scum.

You'd first think either I'm lying or trust telling, but it's neither.

The reasons I do the things I do as scum is because those things WORK.

They almost always earn my team a win or get damn close to one, in spite of being recognizable as being my scumgame.

Not everyone uses meta, and if I can manipulate the gamestate so that I pocket someone who doesn't, then it doesn't matter if I am in my scum meta, they'll ignore it and say that by play I look town.

It being identifiable isn't a liability. My scum meta, in a vacuum, looks town. I have all the answers, so I know who to defend and what logic to use when defending them. That "having all the answers and knowing who to defend and what logic to use" is the signature trait of my scumgame…
…But because superficially these traits look town without taking meta into consideration, people don't WANT to Lynch me.

The few who do? They get called crazy. Nutjobs. Crack cases. People who must be insane, must be irrational. Because I look good, so why would they want to Lynch me?

To put it another way: scumastina is identifiable by acting and being "too perfect". But because it IS "perfect", people hesitate to Lynch me even though my scum meta is apparent.

So yes it DOES make sense to have an identifiable scum meta. Because if the people who correctly identify it suffer from "Cassandra truth syndrome", aka, the Creature curse of being right but being ignored …
…How is that anything other than beneficial to me?

Especially if I can orchestrate an extended 1v1 between myself and the person correctly meta reading me as scum. In prolonged 1v1s, 90+% of the time, the vast majority of the town will write it off as TvT, even when it isn't.

I have an easily identifiable scum meta not because it is detrimental to my scumgame, but rather because it being identifiable is one of the easiest ways for me to manipulate the gamestate such that the accurate town players are discredited and ignored.

Helping that out?

My scumgame is good enough that players have mislynched me from paranoia about it, and as scum I can point to those instances. "You were wrong about me being scum in that game, and you are wrong about me this game"…even though they aren't.

And like I said.
Plenty of people. For five years.
Have used your logic, LuckyOtter.

You think that you're the first to go, 'maybe you changed it this game'?

You're not.

It's SO damn common, in fact.
That I have a stock phrase response:

Sure, I COULD change things up as scum.
In spite of what I do as scum working well, sure I COULD decide to randomly change it up.
In spite of having kept the same pattern for at least five years, sure, I COULD randomly break it for whatever reason for some random game.
Sure, my flexibility and versatility as scum means that very few things are outside my scumrange altogether.
Sure, I've rolled scum in enough games where I have done most things as scum at least once.
Sure, all of that means that I COULD be scum.

But by the balance of sheer, overwhelming probability.
It's just far fucking more likely.
That what you see is what you get, that my town meta still applies, wasn't randomly broken, and holds as a viable defense for why I'm not scum.

[mastina]

Basically: having an identifiable scumgame is nothing but an asset to me REGARDLESS of my alignment.

As scum, this scum meta looks town to the players who don't use meta. The players who do use meta usually hesitate to correctly scumread me off of previous experience where they pushed for my mislynch when I was town.

The few who don't look crazy. The result, I look town and the people who are accurate about me not being town are all but discredited.

Useful as scum.

As town, having an identifiable scumgame is useful, because of the sheer balance of probability;
Yes I COULD change my meta, but lacking any incentive to, why WOULD I? I have no reason, so lacking my scumplay proves that I am town.

Useful as town.

Don't assume that just because YOU can't think of reasons why having an identifiable scumgane would be good, that there aren't any.

[mastina]

Also, just saying:

The few who do? They get called crazy. Nutjobs. Crack cases. People who must be insane, must be irrational.

Just back up and let me suss this out with mastina

You're a fucking moron.

You know what sussing this out would've been?

Asking one fucking question clarifying this.

If you thought I was saying what you fucking thought I said, find a way to confirm that's what I meant. Find a way to ask me about it and see what I'd have said.

One question was all you'd have needed.

"So, you think that this game's got seven VTs?"
"Are you telling me you think that only scum would know what roles are in the game?" (Ehhh probably not this one as it gives away your meaning too much, but something along those lines could feasibly be done without giving your status away.)
One question.

That's all you'd have fucking needed.

And then, BAM.

I clarify.
That, no, I mean, "Well IF the game's got seven VTs, then YES I would expect the scum to know that, yes. If the game instead had six VTs, I'd expect the scum to know that."
And then.
BAM.
Issue resolved. You suss me out and get a satisfactory answer right then and there.

Without this fucking mess.

Or if that answer wasn't satisfactory?
Ask a second follow-through question to get me to further clarify.
And eventually the results become obvious in what I mean and what I mean not being what you fucking originally thought I was saying.

So I reiterate.

You're a fucking moron.

Were you trying to make a point? There isn't one here, other than proving that I was irrational there. Which again. Indicates that I am town.

There's zero calling of Cheeky being crazy there. Just calling her stupid.

[mastina]

You literally got warned by the mod for burying Cheeky with personal attacks, just as a reminder. If that's not lengthy discrediting I don't really know what is.

It was abusive language. That? That's not discrediting. Calling someone a moron is not, in ANY realm, discrediting.

In the world of the mods, it is abusive behavior; abusive behavior != discrediting.

In the world of my intended meaning, you remember my contemporary rant, yes? It's calling an action that they did stupid. Calling someone who did a stupid action out as having done a stupid action? Still != discrediting.

Plus.
One thing special about autistic individuals like me? Exact word choice is important.

Scumastina specifically gets people who scumread her to be seen as crazy--just like I said.

In fact, I have a perfect example I can give once not phoneposting.

Scumastina NEVER, EVER gets people who scumread her to be called morons and she thinks that is despicable.

Someone being seen as crazy when they are right? Laugh worthy.
Someone being seen as stupid when they are right?
Not. Okay. It's absolutely NOT okay to do that.

The two are apples and oranges, or rather poisoned/rotten apples (someone who is right being called stupid) and ripe oranges (someone right is crazy). Both are fruit which can be similarly categorized. That doesn't mean that they are identical especially when one's a laugh riot and the other is Not Okay.

[mastina]

Also, can give you a better rundown when not at work, but textbook perfect scumastina play proving the advantages of having an identifiable scumgame?

I gave you my linked scumgames; check out Inorganic chemistry. A scum game I won.

That game had me willingly enter into a 1v1 with TITUS.
Yes. Willingly. 1v1d. TITUS.
AND WON!
Titus, for her part in the 1v1? Ate an investigation in spite of being dead on the money of me being textbook scumplay me.

Me? For my part in the 1v1, I got away Scott free.
Will explain more/better later, but THIS is why the idea of me losing a 1v1 to Parachutes isbso laughable.