Micro 952 - The Coalition: ItGBSMoD [game over!]

[Deimos27]

First
VOTE: SleeperSoul

[Deimos27]

Anyone wanna form a townblock?

[Deimos27]

First
VOTE: SleeperSoul

Oh wait we don't lynch on D1 how do I rvs

[Deimos27]

Not sure how this works tbh

[Deimos27]

My name? Sounds evil?
Nononononono, you misunderstand
The Ancient Greek personification of terror is a very friendly fellow

[Deimos27]

Why am I being discriminated against

[Deimos27]

deimos my number 1 townread right now

he's so clueless he has to be town

Ah, someone that can read me.

[Deimos27]

what

why did you stop playing chess with me ??

I can play chess with you!

[Deimos27]

DC, how about you play the game like normal.
And you actually case your solve.
And people sheep you only if they agree with you?

[Deimos27]

DC, how about you play the game like normal.
And you actually case your solve.
And people sheep you only if they agree with you?

I prefer option a) I solve the game and everyone sheeps me and then I get lynched upon BoP if I’m wrong

Whats the matter Deimos, worried?

Worried about trusting the game to one player who I know nothing of? Yes, naturally.
I don't have such blind faith in you, nor lack of self-esteem for myself, that I would readily agree your strategy is higher EV than a cooperative, interactive one, where I still get to rely on my own judgment.

we arent gonna discuss day 2 because

it could help scum

to discuss it now.

If this is actually true, town points for votato

... what?

HEAL: Deimos

HEAL: Alduskkel

HEAL: Clover

HEAL: Sleeper

HEAL: Tux

thats an interesting list. to me none of those people are obvtown. maybe deimos? but no its too early to say for deimos. actually, deimos is leaning the other way at this early stage.

Pretty significant progression to go from Deimos is maybe obvtown to Deimos is leaning "the other way" (I assume that means scum). Walk me through your thought process there?

we arent gonna discuss day 2 because it could help scum to discuss it now.

How so?

explaining that would help scum. you trying to bait me into explaining it makes me think you're scum.[/quo*te]

blink

...Huh? I am just-huh?! You think talking about day 2 helps scum and because I asked for more detail why I'm scummy for it... am I getting that all right?

Yes, that's exactly right, and his argument was pretty straightforward so I dislike this seeming indignation.

actually if I count myself as town then everyone else has exactly 75% chance of being town. I calculated this yesterday.

Also, according to my calculations, there are 28 possible scum pairs in this game if I count myself as town.

And what value does this latter calculation provide you? What is the value of outing it?

[Deimos27]

HEAL: Pooky
HEAL: votato
HURT: Sleeper
HURT: Clover
Here's where I'm at.

[Deimos27]

This some kind of metaread? I get gutpings from like every one of his posts.

[Deimos27]

I'll add a tentative HEAL: DC because I don't really expect scum to suggest and defend a strategy that puts them in a 6v1 mountainous.

[Deimos27]

So he was scum in the game you played? What he do that constituted "telling" you his alignment?

[Deimos27]

Sorry, 177 was directed to Pooky. I rarely do p-edits.

[Deimos27]

I'm trying to show you guys my state of mind as a townie... I calculated it yesterday as a townie. It's borderline useless information..... but it is the truth.

You call it showing your state of mind. I call it random LAMIST IIoA.
But ok, I recognize that some players can have this kind of 0 filter townmeta, so I'll wait on the meta argument and take a look myself later when I have motivation.

[Deimos27]

Sleeper, what's your mafia experience?

[Deimos27]

Location checks out

[Deimos27]

Ok, I buy 182. I do want to be

very

careful about calling activity town-AI in a setup that incentivises scum activity/towntelling, but I think the fact that Sleeper actually has 0 experience with scum more than compensates for that, and his spamming + lack of self-awareness is more likely towny than not.

[Deimos27]

HEAL: Sleeper
I still intend to look at that meta though

[Deimos27]

Oh right, and HEAL: Deimos.

[Deimos27]

I don't have a town read of Pooky, they said in Lovers that they post way less as scum. And while they're posting more than many others in this game, they are posting way less than themselves. They are also being way less confrontational.

Game's been up for what, 10 hours? And he has 33 posts. I don't know how much he usually posts, but that looks pretty solid to me.
What do you mean by being less confrontational?

[Deimos27]

HEAL: Pooky
HEAL: votato
HURT: Sleeper
HURT: Clover
Here's where I'm at.

these are my reads which makes me skeptical

O M G we resonate so much!!!!!!! Twinsiiiieeeessss!
Can we be friends now? Can you climb obligingly into my pocket?

[Deimos27]

votato can you respond to this please

Pretty significant progression to go from Deimos is maybe obvtown to Deimos is leaning "the other way" (I assume that means scum). Walk me through your thought process there?

[Deimos27]

You're right, that ISO is actually

very

adversarial.

[Deimos27]

"if this is actually untrue, scum points for Votato."

yes, I agree with that but didn't mention it. I thought that by conditionally giving votato town points, I might be able to read him by his reaction

Okay, town points to Vtato.

Can you explain this to me, Tux?

[Deimos27]

You're right, that ISO is actually

very

adversarial.

Pooky can you comment on the difference in your state of mind here compared to in Lovers?

[Deimos27]

Why is Clover town?

[Deimos27]

Like I'm not even looking for scum right now, so it makes no sense to run aggressive attacks on people since we're doing coalition building not scum lynching

This is a very good response and I feel like an idiot for not making the connection on my own.

[Deimos27]

You don't see why scumhunting is inherently more aggressive than townhunting?

[Deimos27]

Tux, you're straying into the territory of debating optimal play rather than debating how the setup changes his frame of mind.
It's actually quite irrelevant whether you think scumhunting is still a high priority in this setup.

[Deimos27]

Actually, Deimos, what do you think of my proposed coalition?

@pooky actually it would be 5 I just wanna feel better about you/votato before I lock that in.

I'm not confident in Clover's presence in it. The rest seems ok, assuming you'd fill in the empty slots with Pooky/votato.

[Deimos27]

Who is ebi

[Deimos27]

Tux reading the thread but not commenting on my callout is also a bad look lol

I don't comment on call outs. If you have questions for me I'll answer them. If there is a conversation to be had I'll have it. You just saying I'm scum and then saying you won't explain would be a waste of everyone's time to comment on.

tux, what's gotten into you? To me this doesn't seem like the townie tux from last game.

HURT: tux

Though I'm not over the moon about Tux's play so far, the post you've quoted I happen to agree with.

[Deimos27]

Breathtaking reasoning, I'm sold.

[Deimos27]

DkKoba replaces bugspray.

Kobaaaa!

[Deimos27]

HURT: Deimos27
Just to take the coalition off L-1.
I'm busy today but will be back in the evening.

[Deimos27]

im actually reading harder into their ISO.. how TF did yall let him get in so far??????????????????

Koba can you expound on why Pooky is scum? So far you've just said you think their entrance is a scumtell and I don't see it.

[Deimos27]

Clover's 107 pings me big time.

we arent gonna discuss day 2 because it could help scum to discuss it now.

How so?

explaining that would help scum. you trying to bait me into explaining it makes me think you're scum.[/quo*te]

blink

...Huh? I am just-huh?! You think talking about day 2 helps scum and because I asked for more detail why I'm scummy for it... am I getting that all right?

I don't read the tonality as genuine

at all

, given how large an overreaction this is. Like without weighing in on the validity of votato's point, I found his argumentation to be perfectly clear, so to respond with supposed indignant confusion comes off as badly faked emotional outcry.

[Deimos27]

I'm surprised some people have townreads on this slot based off 9 relatively contentless posts.

[Deimos27]

Tux, update me on your current reads.

[Deimos27]

On re-reading I think Tux is actually pretty townie and I too readily condemned his interaction with Pooky on grounds of resonance.

[Deimos27]

@Koba, @Tux, why do you have Alduskkel in your coalitions? I'm very underwhelmed by his 4 posts of semi-IIoA. The fact that what he opted to engage with in this game was an argument against DC's BoP plan seems such a cop-out.

[Deimos27]

Alduskkel: I think their engagement with Don's plan, and refusal to sheep feels good. I think it would be easier for scum to not challenge there.

I disagree. I think it's easier for scum to look busy challenging that plan than to participate in gamesolving.

P:edit Resonance?

I didn't resonate with your position on Pooky. It didn't make much sense to me.

[Deimos27]

actually no I have alduskkel now because of PoE LOL

ya my scum PoE is Deimos, Pooky, and Don

So alduskkel is

in

your coalition by PoE, while scum is in Deimos/Pooky/Don by PoE?
These make me really confused about which of your reads are PoE and how. You have three candidates for scum — if alduskkel hasn't cleared themselves yet for you, why not make it four?

[Deimos27]

the statement is town but scum can also make town statements to NAI

Sleeper, the inner machinations of your mind are truly an enigma.

[Deimos27]

DC, can you elaborate on why Tux is scum yet?

[Deimos27]

I think you need some experience to convincingly spew as scum.

[Deimos27]

Noobscum tends to be sitting on quite a large cognitive load. Admittedly I am generalizing based on my personal experiences.

[Deimos27]

Noobscum tends to be sitting on quite a large cognitive load. Admittedly I am generalizing based on my personal experiences.

This results in them posting less often and in more serious a manner.

[Deimos27]

bugspray has requested replacement.

clearly this means he's scum

if he's townie he'd just be sleeping through this game and show up sometime after the game is over

Pooky, the "clearly" in this post makes it seem tongue-in-cheek — am I reading that right?
If so, how did you progress to accepting the premise that bugspray replacing out is +scum in 335?

[Deimos27]

Noobscum tends to be sitting on quite a large cognitive load. Admittedly I am generalizing based on my personal experiences.

This results in them posting less often and in more serious a manner.

Okay, this all makes sense. It also appears only Koba and I aren't healing Sleeper, I thought it was fewer for some reason. This makes me feel more comfortable with them and Votato.

HEAL: Sleeper

This tell is pretty much exclusive to newbies. You can't really apply it to votato.

[Deimos27]

im actually reading harder into their ISO.. how TF did yall let him get in so far??????????????????

Koba can you expound on why Pooky is scum? So far you've just said you think their entrance is a scumtell and I don't see it.

I'm still hoping for some more details on this, Koba.

[Deimos27]

My scum PoE is now Koba/Clover/Aldus.

[Deimos27]

But instead what does Koba do? They sub out 3 players from Leading Coalition and Puts up 3 new players - this doesn't really make sense or fit with their belief that Pooky is definitely scum manipulating the coalition - unless he thinks Pooky put multiple scum into the coalition (suboptimal play) or they are not nearly as sure about Pooky as they are putting on.

Nice

[Deimos27]

465 resonates with me.
P-Edit: There's more?

[Deimos27]

10 new pages, 2 replacements

What happened here

[Deimos27]

They are also being way less confrontational.

are you high or something?

I'm less confrontational because we're in the look for good guys phase, not the look for bad guys phase.

They are also being way less confrontational.

are you high or something?

I'm less confrontational because we're in the look for good guys phase, not the look for bad guys phase.

You can still make a town block by aggressively scum hunting. You just use POE.

Like I'm not even looking for scum right now, so it makes no sense to run aggressive attacks on people since we're doing coalition building not scum lynching

This is a very good response and I feel like an idiot for not making the connection on my own.

You can still make a town block by aggressively scum hunting. You just use POE.

that's such an ass-backwards way of building a good town block.


Attacking people to try to make them slip doesn't really work when you're not in the lynching phase of the game. if anything it's a distraction.

Like I'm not even looking for scum right now, so it makes no sense to run aggressive attacks on people since we're doing coalition building not scum lynching

This is a very good response and I feel like an idiot for not making the connection on my own.

I really don't see it as a reason to play differently, care to explain? It also doesn't wave away the reduced post count. Something Bear said they do as scum

You can still make a town block by aggressively scum hunting. You just use POE.

that's such an ass-backwards way of building a good town block.


Attacking people to try to make them slip doesn't really work when you're not in the lynching phase of the game. if anything it's a distraction.

I consider your playstyle a distraction regardless. If you think someone is scummy and can convince others, that seems like a good way to keep scum out of the coalition.

I think this interaction is important.

It's the primary reason why I read Tux as town and why I had my early scumread on Pooky(the comment about going further into their ISO)

I don't find their analysis logical or consistent.

I made it to page 26.
Gotta go to the sauna. I'll be back later

[Deimos27]

That quote was unintentional RIP

[Deimos27]

I think Koba reversing his read on Pooky is a towntell. Don't see any really good scum motivation. If anything, I think scum would double down while licking their lips after getting that chain of non-responses from their tunnel.

[Deimos27]

DC you still didn't explain why Tux is scum. I'm tr'ing the slot

[Deimos27]

I'm pretty sure Clover is scum.

[Deimos27]

im actually reading harder into their ISO.. how TF did yall let him get in so far??????????????????

Does anyone know if DK is normally this energetic/aggro as scum? I'm inclined to townread this entrance. It feels pretty genuine to me.
Sleeper on page 15 seems pretty ok to me. The uneasy thought process is one I have all the time yet try to hide and fail to do so.

Idk how anyone has me in a team right now when I should be in zero with how little I've posted.

There are so many parts of this post that ping me tonally.

[Deimos27]

And the low motivation repeated disappearances and brief catch-up is so typical from players that don't like scum (I do it myself!)

[Deimos27]

HURT: all

Alright let's do this. This looks like a shitshow

I've skimmed a little bit in the last few pages and DK's ISO and my main takeaway was that DK was pretty obvtown. That would imply the current proposed coalition is sus. But I'll read up and see if that impression sticks.

Why is DK obvtown bad for the current coalition?

[Deimos27]

Oh you're referring to Koba I thought you were talking about DC

[Deimos27]

I'm paranoid enough of Pooky and DC to replace them for Koba and Tux

[Deimos27]

I haven't seen him do anything scummy, and he could well be town. I just haven't seen him towntelling either and the Koba shade was off-putting, so I'm demoting him out of my top 5.

[Deimos27]

Or am I, hold up

[Deimos27]

Klick what do you think of 242

[Deimos27]

I was expecting an adverse reaction, since that was mine while re-reading. I'll post what I have drafted on the topic now.

[Deimos27]

Spoiler:

They are also being way less confrontational.

are you high or something?

I'm less confrontational because we're in the look for good guys phase, not the look for bad guys phase.

They are also being way less confrontational.

are you high or something?

I'm less confrontational because we're in the look for good guys phase, not the look for bad guys phase.

You can still make a town block by aggressively scum hunting. You just use POE.

Like I'm not even looking for scum right now, so it makes no sense to run aggressive attacks on people since we're doing coalition building not scum lynching

This is a very good response and I feel like an idiot for not making the connection on my own.

You can still make a town block by aggressively scum hunting. You just use POE.

that's such an ass-backwards way of building a good town block.


Attacking people to try to make them slip doesn't really work when you're not in the lynching phase of the game. if anything it's a distraction.

Like I'm not even looking for scum right now, so it makes no sense to run aggressive attacks on people since we're doing coalition building not scum lynching

This is a very good response and I feel like an idiot for not making the connection on my own.

I really don't see it as a reason to play differently, care to explain? It also doesn't wave away the reduced post count. Something Bear said they do as scum

You can still make a town block by aggressively scum hunting. You just use POE.

that's such an ass-backwards way of building a good town block.


Attacking people to try to make them slip doesn't really work when you're not in the lynching phase of the game. if anything it's a distraction.

I consider your playstyle a distraction regardless. If you think someone is scummy and can convince others, that seems like a good way to keep scum out of the coalition.

I think this interaction is important.

It's the primary reason why I read Tux as town and why I had my early scumread on Pooky(the comment about going further into their ISO)

I don't find their analysis logical or consistent.

When it comes to this passage I accidentally quoted earlier, I think Pooky's 233 is excellent in that it accounts for why he's in a cooperative framing rather than a confrontational one. But now that I see it again 242 is horrendous logic and starts to come off as contrived. Attacking people and provoking scumslips is perfectly functional as a strategy in coalition, and such a blatant dismissal gives me the same sense of feigned indignation I earlier observed in Clover.

[Deimos27]

I suppose if you put a lot of importance on voting for pressure as part of your scumhunting I can buy this opinion. Still an ugly overreaction.

[Deimos27]

HURT: all
HEAL: Deimos
HEAL: Koba
HEAL: Klick/Tux
HEAL: Wug/votato
HEAL: Sleeper
My top two scumreads now are Aldus and Clover. I doubt I'm wrong about both, but the lack of resistance from these slots to the initial coalition makes me think they're maybe not compatible as a team and I need to dodge a deepwolf in the remaining 7 players.

[Deimos27]

"deepwolf in the remaining 7" is quite the oxymoron but you understand what I mean

[Deimos27]

Being super ticked off is Koba meta. Also their

ego

self-esteem is certainly of sufficient magnitude for them to start reworking the whole coalition from the ground up.

[Deimos27]

I've come to my senses and no longer buy Pooky's case because I think it's clear that Koba had doubts about multiple players in the coalition (at least myself in addition to Pooky) and it's hence logical he'd try to replace more than just one spot.

[Deimos27]

In fact, if the coalition was all town, it would've probably been scummier of him to try and replace only

one

slot, since it requires less work to push through and guarantees only one scum (himself) on the coalition.

[Deimos27]

Clover's 107 pings me big time.

we arent gonna discuss day 2 because it could help scum to discuss it now.

How so?

explaining that would help scum. you trying to bait me into explaining it makes me think you're scum.[/quo*te]

blink

...Huh? I am just-huh?! You think talking about day 2 helps scum and because I asked for more detail why I'm scummy for it... am I getting that all right?

I don't read the tonality as genuine

at all

, given how large an overreaction this is. Like without weighing in on the validity of votato's point, I found his argumentation to be perfectly clear, so to respond with supposed indignant confusion comes off as badly faked emotional outcry.

I am not someone who can fake or probably would try to fake such an emotion. Is it really that hard to believe that I just didn't get why talking about day 2 is scummy? I'm curious.

It's not hard to believe that you would disagree about the scumminess of talking D2. It's hard to believe you wouldn't understand such a straightforward formulation of why someone else thinks so. And I put 0 weight in you saying that it isn't something you would do as scum. Scum never thinks they're playing like they do as scum.

[Deimos27]

talking about D2*

[Deimos27]

This game started 2 days ago and there's 700 posts that is impressive to me. Oh boy, I got a lot to get back into. Now time to figure out the best way to do this without draining myself out.

I have that effect on games...
if you'd like a summary I can give you one tomorrow when I'm off of work.

That'd be nice. I feel the pressure to try and catch up on all the pages I missed because I know if I can just get my feet back into the ground I'll be in that coil because if I can do one thing on this site I guess it's be townread but uh yeah coming home from a long day of work and seeing all this is pretty draining. I could probably do a few pages for now though.

I dunno your 704 read as pretty low motivation to me. But hey, you said that you're good at being townread, so have at it.

[Deimos27]

And the low motivation repeated disappearances and brief catch-up is so typical from players that don't like scum (I do it myself!)

But this is a baseless assumption and none of this statement is true? I mean sure, the catch up is brief but that doesn't mean I have low motivation. I don't know if I like scum yet I haven't rolled it!

That was in response to this

[Deimos27]

I've come to my senses and no longer buy Pooky's case because I think it's clear that Koba had doubts about multiple players in the coalition (at least myself in addition to Pooky) and it's hence logical he'd try to replace more than just one spot.

It's illogical to have suspicions about 3 players on the coalition and want 3 players switched out.

That isn't intrinsically illogical. It depends on the 3 players, and the reasoning for why they are being suspected.

[Deimos27]

What I didn't understand is why Votato was trying to cut me off about discussing day 2. That just didn't make sense to me. Why do you think it's more likely I'm scum in that case than town?

How do you still not understand why he was cutting you off about discussing D2? He was quite clear that he thinks this is because it benefits scum. There was nothing confusing here, yet you reacted with confusion.

The emotional reaction and supposed ignorance about scum strategy is LAMIST and therefore scummy.

But I don't want to talk about this anymore because it isn't

that

strong a te and I'd rather you focus on making reads and playing the game so I can sort you more accurately.

[Deimos27]

I expect town to
a) understand votato's reasoning
b) react with understanding
Not
a) express disbelief at votato's reasoning
b) react with indignation

[Deimos27]

Hopefully that elaboration helps

[Deimos27]

That isn't intrinsically illogical. It depends on the 3 players, and the reasoning for why they are being suspected.

It's illogical because the default strategy for scum is one-on one-off.

If you switch 3 suspicious people on-coalition for 3 off-coalition people, even if you are right about one of those three people you switched off - you end up with their scumbuddy instead and end up in the hot seat when the coalition fails

Ok you're actually right I missed the fact that replacing three mathematical guarantees including the second scum, if there was only one originally.

[Deimos27]

Hmhmhmhmhm maybe Koba is scum after all

[Deimos27]

it isn't

that

strong a tell

tell* EBWOP

[Deimos27]

Before I go back and grab quotes I don't see how not understanding someones logic is scummy.

m8 it's about how simple the logic is.

Premise 1: Talking about D2 is pro-scum
Premise 2: Clover wants to talk about D2

It doesn't take a genius to see why, from votato POV, you were suspicious.

[Deimos27]

Your reaction comes from town most often after someone uses really bad logic. Votato's logic was straightforward, so townie reactions should reflect that. You could've said "sorry, I just didn't understand why it's good for scum to talk about D2. Is there an explanation you can give for why that's the case while circumventing this obstacle?"

[Deimos27]

I don't think you read the entire conversation because you would've seen where you're wrong to begin with.

I mean, maybe so. Feel free to show me.

[Deimos27]

Ok, no, votato's topic was always "talking about D2". It turns into "talking about scum's optimal strategy" because that is (obviously) why he thinks talking about D2 is pro-scum. Because it informs their strategy for D1.

[Deimos27]

But let's agree that I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and what I thought was obvious was not in fact necessarily obvious. What are your reads?

[Deimos27]

I assume your coalition is your townreads. Do you have an idea of who you think scum is?

[Deimos27]

You've healed Don. Which of their posts do you think are town-AI?

[Deimos27]

Eh I've seen this anti-omgus "x's sr of me is towny" thing from scum plenty enough to find it NAI at best. It's another activity I'm guilty of myself.

[Deimos27]

Spoiler:

you're making me paranoid! HURT: dc


him and tux are still fighting over the weakest slot in my coalition

Deimos, I see in the VC that you're voting me but also putting me in your coalition. What gives?

pedit: dang you're good. These are good points.... you're making me paranoid of pooky too though I still town read him pretty strong

I want it known that I am exercising a great degree of restraint in recognising that the way Sleeper is sucking up to me here is probably NAI for him. From anyone else this would hella ping me as hard buddying.

[Deimos27]

it depends

the "this sounds weird" sold it

That resonates so much with my first impression that I consider it a strong towntell.

[Deimos27]

I didn't comment on it cause I didn't know how to rationalize it, but the part I liked the most tonally was the "this sounds weird"

[Deimos27]

HURT: Koba
I gotta think about this Koba/Pooky situation harder.

[Deimos27]

That isn't intrinsically illogical. It depends on the 3 players, and the reasoning for why they are being suspected.

It's illogical because the default strategy for scum is one-on one-off.

If you switch 3 suspicious people on-coalition for 3 off-coalition people, even if you are right about one of those three people you switched off - you end up with their scumbuddy instead and end up in the hot seat when the coalition fails

Ok you're actually right I missed the fact that replacing three mathematical guarantees including the second scum, if there was only one originally.

No it doesnt that's logically incorrect.

9-5=4

1 scum + 2 town can be replaced by 3 town

Oh I was thinking 9-6 by excluding you for some reason.

[Deimos27]

actually no I have alduskkel now because of PoE LOL

ya my scum PoE is Deimos, Pooky, and Don

So alduskkel is

in

your coalition by PoE, while scum is in Deimos/Pooky/Don by PoE?
These make me really confused about which of your reads are PoE and how. You have three candidates for scum — if alduskkel hasn't cleared themselves yet for you, why not make it four?

I asked you about Aldus at least, but thanks for the reminder. Did you ever respond to this?

[Deimos27]

Koba you're pretty close to a winning coalition if you still tr Sleeper and you think Pooky/votato are locktown.

[Deimos27]

If your grand plans include me being scum, I'm sorry to disappoint.

[Deimos27]

there's just something I can't put my finger on that tips me off about you and I probably would have been able to identify it had I not tipped my hand early and made the correct push but I think you are playing Too Good To Be True in a sense. Prove me wrong by all means but your play has tipped me off in the way that CultD3 did not.

It's absurd that you think you have a meta read on me based on a sample size of one town game. Take a look at my scumgame!

[Deimos27]

I'm not gonna dig up those examples while phoneposting, but I will happily do so on Saturday when I get back to my computer. Everything I've said I've done as scum is present in Open 778.

[Deimos27]

You said you thought I was disingenuous in my comments about what I've done as scum. I am saying that I have in fact done the things I've claimed to have done, and I am in fact using myself as anecdotal evidence of a scum paradigm.

[Deimos27]

I thought 723 was one of Sleeper's better posts, so I do look forward to your analysis of it.

[Deimos27]

It elucidates the reasoning for his initial coalition. I don't think the analysis is particularly

good

, but I can see why a player like Sleeper would

think

that these are good reasons. This was like the first time he made a long analysis post, and it reads as genuine to me, even if the subject matter is quite outdated.

[Deimos27]

The main thing that's been bugging me about Sleeper is consistent tonal scumpings. I don't recall getting any from that post. Just noobtown vibes.

[Deimos27]

and i have a strong suspicion that they and sleeper are participating in scum theater. ~~

The two of us have been relatively chill having each other in our coalitions this entire time so I don't know how valid a scumteam that is objectively.

[Deimos27]

Where do you see scum theatre?

[Deimos27]

Koba remind me why you have Clover as town.

[Deimos27]

All I can tell you is that if I were scum with Sleeper I would've tried to keep one of us off the coalition. 1 scum between us is more reasonable.

[Deimos27]

Sleeper, do you think a
Deimos/Koba/Pooky/Wug/Klick
coalition is winning?

[Deimos27]

You were just talking about how much you think they are stubborn oblivious town

[Deimos27]

im just annoyed at hearin this "optimal strategy" thing bc scum is not going to explicitly follow it and push for it. and regardless you've been more critical of sleeper in recent posts so hey.

It only makes sense to take a suboptimal coalition if that's all you can settle for. The gamestate was very cooperative and low resistance, there would've been no harm at least attempting to shade sleeper more and take someone else on-board.

[Deimos27]

In any case I really am town and I'm annoyed that you cling to a sr of me that you don't even know how to substantiate.

[Deimos27]

Clover also seems kinda scummy to me so having him as town makes me more suspicous of koba, but I can see an oblivious stubborn town having clover as town anyways.

Well if you had to exclude yourself, what would your coalition be?

[Deimos27]

HEAL: Klick/Tux
HEAL: Wug/votato

Is there a reason you specifically included our predecessors in this post?

Ease of remembering who replaced whom for myself and others.

[Deimos27]

Clover also seems kinda scummy to me so having him as town makes me more suspicous of koba, but I can see an oblivious stubborn town having clover as town anyways.

Well if you had to exclude yourself, what would your coalition be?

I would have to think about this pretty hard, reread everything again.... That's why my coalition is sparse at the moment.

If I need to do that, I can do that tomorrow morning.

I mean, it's not that complicated a question. It's basically "who is your strongest townread out of the players not currently on your coalition"

[Deimos27]

Oh wait what
That's pretty embarrassing

[Deimos27]

My problem right now is that I'm pretty sure there's one scum in Clover/Aldus but I don't think they can both be scum and I can't figure out who the second is.

[Deimos27]

Can't just look for town if you end up with too many townreads as a result, Sleeper.

[Deimos27]

Well I do. I re-read DC's ISO and Pooky's interaction with Koba and now those players feel town to me again. But this leaves me townreading every player in the game except Aldus/Clover. So someone's pulled a fast one on me.

[Deimos27]

Yes, for the simple reason that these players exhibited no resistance to the initial coalition which made it to L-1. And if it

is

the scumteam, I win anyway by excluding them, so I'd rather assume it's only 1 and solve that way.

[Deimos27]

I've already given this reasoning once before.

[Deimos27]

You could well be right, Klick. But again, if that's the case we win anyway by excluding both so I'd like to use my remaining exclusions as insurance against whoever I read as the likeliest potential scumpartners for those two.

[Deimos27]

I don't know what to tell you, Klick. It feels too easy if scum is Aldus/Clover. You have meta with Aldus, I do not. As far as I can tell, if he is scum with Clover in that early game he must try to shake the initial coalition up somehow.

[Deimos27]

Koba can confirm for you that something I do as town is look for explanatory power regarding particular gamestates. In CultD3 I came to a D2 solve by identifying the scumteam that had the most explanatory power for D1 events.

In this case, one event that occurred was that an initial coalition formed with little resistance. If there was scum on that coalition, it has a lot of explanatory power. Another promising team would be Koba/Clover, since bugspray was equally absent in the early game. But I haven't found a Koba sr out of his individual play.

[Deimos27]

Both of those possibilities explain that gamestate better than Clover/Aldus.
So no, I'm not gonna bet the game on Clover/Aldus. I'll solve assuming there's just one scum in those two for now.

[Deimos27]

I have put zero effort into this game since yesterday because I have been prioritising other things but I am here now and willing to engage someone in real time

[Deimos27]

Klick, do you think Tux/Wug + Aldus is a possible team here? Doesn't really have the explanatory power I'm looking for but I still can't find a scumread off the original coalition.

[Deimos27]

I'm pretty sure Votato is town for this stance I am just very confused on how he got to it.
pedit: But that wasn't what I was asking. (Or at least was going to ask) I was talking about what we should do day 2 if it reaches that point. I don't see why that is an issue. Besides, unless scum are rookies I don't think it's a stretch to say they already have an idea on what they want to do.

Clover, do you remember why you thought votato was town for that stance? Usually players find it hard to townread each other when they don't understand their thought processes, so it's surprising that you manage to tr votato while being so baffled.

im actually reading harder into their ISO.. how TF did yall let him get in so far??????????????????

Does anyone know if DK is normally this energetic/aggro as scum? I'm inclined to townread this entrance. It feels pretty genuine to me.

Sleeper on page 15 seems pretty ok to me. The uneasy thought process is one I have all the time yet try to hide and fail to do so.

Idk how anyone has me in a team right now when I should be in zero with how little I've posted.

I would also like to continue to contribute to the discussion about Clover by pointing out how much the bolded phrasing pings me in this post. Clover isn't particularly formal in tone so the "I'm inclined to townread this" wording reads like typical scum cogdis not actually holding the view they claim to hold. Those three sentences feel particularly awkward in general.

[Deimos27]

That said I think his last few posts with the not wanting to be in the coalition thing is pretty townie so ehhhhhhh

[Deimos27]

All I know rn is that scum is playing well and that annoys me.

[Deimos27]

DC please come back I need fresh opinions

[Deimos27]

It's hard to be unbiased about myself but it's so disturbing to me that Koba sr's me, like I feel I'm playing the same as usual yet they can't come to a tr of me even though they managed quite easily in CultD3. If they could at least point to some difference in my play it would help me understand, but they've been unable and just keep repeating their commitment to this vague tonal gutread.

[Deimos27]

Ok scratch that Koba is still town

[Deimos27]

No other purpose than to express my annoyance with how difficult a solve this game is

[Deimos27]

Do you have a problem with my viewpoint on Kobba?

Nah no problem with the viewpoint itself. Only with how it was presented.

[Deimos27]

I've been slowly coming around to town!Clover, I think I've been confbiasing these last few pages trying to cling to one of the the only sources of stability I had in this gamestate.

[Deimos27]

Clover/Klick/Sleeper/Koba/DC probably wins

[Deimos27]

I wish DC would play the game

[Deimos27]

HEAL: DkKoba

I've changed my mind about changing my mind about Tux. I think I got it right the first time around in dismissing his interaction with Pooky on grounds of resonance because that lack of resonance totally makes sense as scum agenda. His push against Pooky reads as contrived because he's forcing himself to try and destabilize the nascent townblock. Even after we objected to his reasoning he continued to express completely undue confidence. Another place where he lacked resonance with me was his read on Aldus here:

Alduskkel: I think their engagement with Don's plan, and refusal to sheep feels good. I think it would be easier for scum to not challenge there.

See my response:

Alduskkel: I think their engagement with Don's plan, and refusal to sheep feels good. I think it would be easier for scum to not challenge there.

I disagree. I think it's easier for scum to look busy challenging that plan than to participate in gamesolving.

This tl of Aldus was nonsense and I think this lack of resonance can also be explained by scum agenda when you think of these two as the scumteam. Considering the gamestate of neither of them being included in the townblock, Tux was trying to legitimize his teammate and perpetuate the idea that Aldus should be townread.

[Deimos27]

That intiial quote is not meant to be there

[Deimos27]

mine?

Courtesy of Deimos

[Deimos27]

But yeah TL;DR I'm coming around to Aldus/Wug I think that team actually does have a fair bit of explanatory power.

[Deimos27]

This tl of Aldus was nonsense and I think this lack of resonance can also be explained by scum agenda when you think of these two as the scumteam. Considering the gamestate of neither of them being included in the townblock, Tux was trying to legitimize his teammate and perpetuate the idea that Aldus should be townread.

So why did I call attention to Tux's townread on me being bad?

I assume you are referring to the "this sounds weird but Deimos' tr of me makes more sense than Tux's tr"? Scum turn down undue towncred perfectly often, since they think that it's townie to do so. Tux trying to elevate your status is perfectly consistent with you appearing skeptical over his basis for doing so.

[Deimos27]

Tux reading the thread but not commenting on my callout is also a bad look lol

I don't comment on call outs. If you have questions for me I'll answer them. If there is a conversation to be had I'll have it. You just saying I'm scum and then saying you won't explain would be a waste of everyone's time to comment on.

tux, what's gotten into you? To me this doesn't seem like the townie tux from last game.

HURT: tux

Sleeper can you remind me of what you saw wrong with this post from Tux?

[Deimos27]

And by "remind" I mean "tell" because I don't think you've elaborated on that front yet.

[Deimos27]

im home now.

I want an update from everyone on where they're at for each slot at the table. I'm willing to adjust certain parts of my coalition if needed but fwiw I think mine is a winning one, if not one that helps grant a near "autowin"

Why don't you want DC?

[Deimos27]

That quote was unintentional wahhhhh this keeps happening to me when I don't preview

[Deimos27]

I've made an interesting observation about my mafia motivation.
I think it's directly proportional to how widely I'm townread.

[Deimos27]

Mafia motivation as in the game mafia, not as in the alignment mafia.

[Deimos27]

I just think that in a scum!me scum!Tux world that interaction would require a lack of planning/coordination that doesn't make sense.

It makes sense if there is a lack of coordination, which is perfectly common among scumteams.
But it also makes sense if there

is

coordination, namely the coordination that you are aiming for an Aldus coalition inclusion.

[Deimos27]

im home now.

I want an update from everyone on where they're at for each slot at the table. I'm willing to adjust certain parts of my coalition if needed but fwiw I think mine is a winning one, if not one that helps grant a near "autowin"

Klick / Koba - locktown
Sleeper - probtown
DC / Pooky - some slight chance of being scum still, but I think town
Clover - above rand chance of town, but I'd still prefer them outside the coalition
Aldus / Wug - too scummy for inclusion

[Deimos27]

Actually I'm not 100% on the relative values of DC/Pooky/Clover, tbh. Those are mostly what I'm debating between.

[Deimos27]

I think the current coalition has a good chance of winning but I'd prefer to be included. And if you were to kick someone out for me it would be Pooky or Clover.
I'm looking forward to Klick's Clover towncase, it can maybe help me finally settle on that opinion.

[Deimos27]

Yeah I noticed that everyone seems to be snubbing deimos so that's definitely something I'll be looking at tomorrow.

Something you "will" be looking at or something you "would" be looking at?

[Deimos27]

Sorry folks my motivation has been at an all time low these last few days but I'll try to pick it up

[Deimos27]

Koba has played so radically differently from the other scumgame they linked that I'd still rather not lynch them.

[Deimos27]

I wonder if they could've gotten called out by the mod for playing against wincon by threatening the self-hammer. That's the kind of thing that might instigate a replace out.

[Deimos27]

Ah, ok then

[Deimos27]

Klick can you link a scumgame or two

[Deimos27]

UNVOTE:

[Deimos27]

'll indicates 'will'. 'd indicates 'would'.

I haven't really been looking at this game extremely hard though.

The phrasing with "will" rather than "would" can be taken as TMI, since it indicates certainty that the game will continue to a tomorrow.

[Deimos27]

I'm pretty much fos everyone voting Koba rn except DC

[Deimos27]

Both Wug's and Sleeper's jump on Koba are hella opportunistic and there is probably scum in one of the two. I'm between executing off-coalition Wug and executing Sleeper just to get his blatant scumminess out of my hair.

[Deimos27]

Clover is still a large floating question mark I really hope they will actually effort

[Deimos27]

Spoiler:

anyways has anyone noticed how votato/tux and wug/klick avoid eachother like the plague for the most part?

this is bad
i asked klick a question
didn't really ask a lot of other questions
so avoided klick the least

VOTE: dkkoba

Koba's playstyle is so frustrating, it makes reading this game not very fun. I agree we should be looking within the coalition at this time. Koba has caused disruption constantly throughout the entire game. And the way they desperately forced themselves into the coalition seems kinda scummy.

VOTE: koba

Here is where I see the opportunism ftr

[Deimos27]

Wug/Aldus = off-coalition scum
Sleeper/Pooky/Clover = on-coalition scum
I wish Koba had at least done us the favour of casing Klick cause now that read is rendered completely mysterious

[Deimos27]

Chemist please catch up and effort as well please

[Deimos27]

1off1on feels likelier, but there are tinfoil hat 2on theories like you + Pooky

[Deimos27]

Nah that's

too

tinfoil. But there are possibilities.

[Deimos27]

Hmhmhmhm I can't say I have a particularly strong desire to execute whomever Wug is voting but if Clover doesn't materialise I feel like I probably should. Atm I'm leaning more in the direction of PoEing Sleeper or Pooky out of here.

[Deimos27]

Also I urge everyone who doesn't know Klick's meta to ISO them briefly in those links cause their scumplay just emanates competence.

[Deimos27]

And hence I have a renewed paranoia about their ability to fake the posts in this game.

[Deimos27]

VOTE: Sleeper
Let's see how the game reacts to this distribution.

[Deimos27]

If we execute twice on-coalition and miss both times we probs execute Klick for BoP or smth. Klick's only viable on-coalition teammate is Clover but I can still see off-coalition teammates in Klick/Wug or Klick/Aldus.

[Deimos27]

For today we should definitely go either Pooky or Sleeper.

[Deimos27]

In fact, the fact that things weren't set in stone makes it less likely that he'd want to slim his team's odds of getting someone in the coalition.

+1

If Clover had the manipulative firepower you're suggesting he has to use 'don't townread me' as a way to get townread... then why didn't he just play a game that would get townread in the first place? Occam's Razor suggests he's just town instead of scum who banked on getting townread by telling people to not townread him.

+1

I prefer Klick's logic to Pooky's here

[Deimos27]

I do wish Clover would spend more time solving and less time arguing what he does or does not do as scum.

[Deimos27]

I feel like the entirety of D1 I was tolerating a too scummy to be scum read on Sleeper and at this point I just want to PoE the lad.

[Deimos27]

Klick, sorry if I missed it, do you still feel Koba/Chemist scum?

[Deimos27]

Well I take it you prefer Pooky/Sleeper now, but what changed your mind?

[Deimos27]

I think Pooky execution has promise but I'ma just wait and see how others enter this gamestate for now.

[Deimos27]

No takers for Sleeper?
Interesting

[Deimos27]

Maybe I'm getting AtE'd but I like Pooky's recent content. Sleeper is better for the PoE since he can be scum with basically anyone but Pooky is unlikely scum with Aldus for example, who's one of my top 2 off-coalition suspects.

[Deimos27]

DC can you do more than just naked vote :/

[Deimos27]

Pooky vote Sleeper with me he's gonna be a trainwreck of a slot for the whole game but Clover can maybe still produce content and become readable we can reassess him tomorrow

[Deimos27]

If Pooky scum and Chemist town why did Pooky defend him today

[Deimos27]

He was 1v1 with that slot for a while would it have been beyond belief for him to oppose the wagon that hard and try to buddy for an off-wagon Wug lynch?

Speaking of which, if Pooky is incompatible with Wug because he pushed Wug, and incompatible with Aldus because Aldus pushed him, maybe he doesn't have good options for teammates here?

[Deimos27]

He was 1v1 with that slot for a while would it have been beyond belief for him to oppose the wagon that hard and try to buddy for an off-wagon Wug lynch?

This point actually makes no sense. Pay attention to the second one instead.

[Deimos27]

Actually though looking at who has pushed Pooky and who Pooky has pushed, who are good candidates for his scumbuddy? Pretty much exactly Koba/Chemist. So if you read Koba/Chemist as town you should read Pooky as town.

Maybe he can also still be scum w/ like, Sleeper, but then why not lynch Sleeper instead?

P-Edit: Ignore the Koba point. I'm more concerned about whether Pooky/Wug is compatible, and I'm not convinced it is. Let me look at some earlier interactions too though.

[Deimos27]

Ok I guess there's a world where the Tux/Pooky 1v1 towards the start of the game was scum theatre but I don't know.

[Deimos27]

Spoiler:

They are also being way less confrontational.

are you high or something?

I'm less confrontational because we're in the look for good guys phase, not the look for bad guys phase.

Like I'm not even looking for scum right now, so it makes no sense to run aggressive attacks on people since we're doing coalition building not scum lynching

They are also being way less confrontational.

are you high or something?

I'm less confrontational because we're in the look for good guys phase, not the look for bad guys phase.

You can still make a town block by aggressively scum hunting. You just use POE.

You can still make a town block by aggressively scum hunting. You just use POE.

that's such an ass-backwards way of building a good town block.


Attacking people to try to make them slip doesn't really work when you're not in the lynching phase of the game. if anything it's a distraction.

Like I'm not even looking for scum right now, so it makes no sense to run aggressive attacks on people since we're doing coalition building not scum lynching

This is a very good response and I feel like an idiot for not making the connection on my own.

I really don't see it as a reason to play differently, care to explain? It also doesn't wave away the reduced post count. Something Bear said they do as scum

You can still make a town block by aggressively scum hunting. You just use POE.

that's such an ass-backwards way of building a good town block.


Attacking people to try to make them slip doesn't really work when you're not in the lynching phase of the game. if anything it's a distraction.

I consider your playstyle a distraction regardless. If you think someone is scummy and can convince others, that seems like a good way to keep scum out of the coalition.

I consider your playstyle a distraction regardless. If you think someone is scummy and can convince others, that seems like a good way to keep scum out of the coalition.

I'm gonna keep scum out of my coalition by not picking them to be in it.

I really don't see it as a reason to play differently, care to explain? It also doesn't wave away the reduced post count. Something Bear said they do as scum

You're really comparing my workday post count to my weekend post count?

What could possibly be the reason for the difference. Let me think about that and get back to you.

This is the interaction I'm looking at

[Deimos27]

I've never actually seen scum 1v1 but I know it does happen from time to time and the emotion doesn't read as particularly natural (e.g. "are you high or something?") so maybe SvS here is a perfectly reasonable possibility.

[Deimos27]

I like this gamemode. We have a lot of info for future days what with both coalition building and executing. Unfortunately I expect I'll be pretty high NK priority since I'm off-coalition and relatively townread(?).